This is topic Does God Want You To Be Rich? in forum Exposing False Teaching at Christian Message Boards.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=53;t=000245

---

Posted by Post Patrol (Member # 5632) on :
 
Does God Want You To Be Rich?
A growing number of Protestant evangelists raise a joyful Yes! But the idea is poison to other, more mainstream pastors
By DAVID VAN BIEMA, JEFF CHU

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1533448-1,00.html

Posted Sunday, Sep. 10, 2006
When George Adams lost his job at an Ohio tile factory last October, the most practical thing he did, he thinks, was go to a new church, even though he had to move his wife and four preteen boys to Conroe, a suburb of Houston, to do it. Conroe, you see, is not far from Lakewood, the home church of megapastor and best-selling author Joel Osteen.

Osteen's relentlessly upbeat television sermons had helped Adams, 49, get through the hard times, and now Adams was expecting the smiling, Texas-twanged 43-year-old to help boost him back toward success. And Osteen did. Inspired by the preacher's insistence that one of God's top priorities is to shower blessings on Christians in this lifetime--and by the corollary assumption that one of the worst things a person can do is to expect anything less--Adams marched into Gullo Ford in Conroe looking for work. He didn't have entry-level aspirations: "God has showed me that he doesn't want me to be a run-of-the-mill person," he explains. He demanded to know what the dealership's top salesmen made--and got the job. Banishing all doubt--"You can't sell a $40,000-to-$50,000 car with menial thoughts"--Adams took four days to retail his first vehicle, a Ford F-150 Lariat with leather interior. He knew that many fellow salesmen don't notch their first score until their second week. "Right now, I'm above average!" he exclaims. "It's a new day God has given me! I'm on my way to a six-figure income!" The sales commission will help with this month's rent, but Adams hates renting. Once that six-figure income has been rolling in for a while, he will buy his dream house: "Twenty-five acres," he says. "And three bedrooms. We're going to have a schoolhouse (his children are home schooled). We want horses and ponies for the boys, so a horse barn. And a pond. And maybe some cattle."

"I'm dreaming big--because all of heaven is dreaming big," Adams continues. "Jesus died for our sins. That was the best gift God could give us," he says. "But we have something else. Because I want to follow Jesus and do what he ordained, God wants to support us. It's Joel Osteen's ministry that told me. Why would an awesome and mighty God want anything less for his children?"

In three of the Gospels, Jesus warns that each of his disciples may have to "deny himself" and even "take up his Cross." In support of this alarming prediction, he forcefully contrasts the fleeting pleasures of today with the promise of eternity: "For what profit is it to a man," he asks, "if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" It is one of the New Testament's hardest teachings, yet generations of churchgoers have understood that being Christian, on some level, means being ready to sacrifice--money, autonomy or even their lives.

But for a growing number of Christians like George Adams, the question is better restated, "Why not gain the whole world plus my soul?" For several decades, a philosophy has been percolating in the 10 million--strong Pentecostal wing of Christianity that seems to turn the Gospels' passage on its head: certainly, it allows, Christians should keep one eye on heaven. But the new good news is that God doesn't want us to wait. Known (or vilified) under a variety of names--Word of Faith, Health and Wealth, Name It and Claim It, Prosperity Theology--its emphasis is on God's promised generosity in this life and the ability of believers to claim it for themselves. In a nutshell, it suggests that a God who loves you does not want you to be broke. Its signature verse could be John 10: 10: "I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly." In a TIME poll, 17% of Christians surveyed said they considered themselves part of such a movement, while a full 61% believed that God wants people to be prosperous. And 31%--a far higher percentage than there are Pentecostals in America--agreed that if you give your money to God, God will bless you with more money.

"Prosperity" first blazed to public attention as the driveshaft in the moneymaking machine that was 1980s televangelism and faded from mainstream view with the Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart scandals. But now, after some key modifications (which have inspired some to redub it Prosperity Lite), it has not only recovered but is booming. Of the four biggest megachurches in the country, three--Osteen's Lakewood in Houston; T.D. Jakes' Potter's House in south Dallas; and Creflo Dollar's World Changers near Atlanta--are Prosperity or Prosperity Lite pulpits (although Jakes' ministry has many more facets). While they don't exclusively teach that God's riches want to be in believers' wallets, it is a key part of their doctrine. And propelled by Osteen's 4 million--selling book, Your Best Life Now, the belief has swept beyond its Pentecostal base into more buttoned-down evangelical churches, and even into congregations in the more liberal Mainline. It is taught in hundreds of non-Pentecostal Bible studies. One Pennsylvania Lutheran pastor even made it the basis for a sermon series for Lent, when Christians usually meditate on why Jesus was having His Worst Life Then. Says the Rev. Chappell Temple, a Methodist minister with the dubious distinction of pastoring Houston's other Lakewood Church (Lakewood United Methodist), an hour north of Osteen's: "Prosperity Lite is everywhere in Christian culture. Go into any Christian bookstore, and see what they're offering."

The movement's renaissance has infuriated a number of prominent pastors, theologians and commentators. Fellow megapastor Rick Warren, whose book The Purpose Driven Life has outsold Osteen's by a ratio of 7 to 1, finds the very basis of Prosperity laughable. "This idea that God wants everybody to be wealthy?", he snorts. "There is a word for that: baloney. It's creating a false idol. You don't measure your self-worth by your net worth. I can show you millions of faithful followers of Christ who live in poverty. Why isn't everyone in the church a millionaire?"

The brickbats--both theological and practical (who really gets rich from this?)--come especially thick from Evangelicals like Warren. Evangelicalism is more prominent and influential than ever before. Yet the movement, which has never had a robust theology of money, finds an aggressive philosophy advancing within its ranks that many of its leaders regard as simplistic, possibly heretical and certainly embarrassing.

Prosperity's defenders claim to be able to match their critics chapter and verse. They caution against broad-brushing a wide spectrum that ranges from pastors who crassly solicit sky's-the-limit financial offerings from their congregations to those whose services tend more toward God-fueled self-help. Advocates note Prosperity's racial diversity--a welcome exception to the American norm--and point out that some Prosperity churches engage in significant charity. And they see in it a happy corrective for Christians who are more used to being chastened for their sins than celebrated as God's children. "Who would want to get in on something where you're miserable, poor, broke and ugly and you just have to muddle through until you get to heaven?" asks Joyce Meyer, a popular television preacher and author often lumped in the Prosperity Lite camp. "I believe God wants to give us nice things." If nothing else, Meyer and other new-breed preachers broach a neglected topic that should really be a staple of Sunday messages: Does God want you to be rich?

As with almost any important religious question, the first response of most Christians (especially Protestants) is to ask how Scripture treats the topic. But Scripture is not definitive when it comes to faith and income. Deuteronomy commands believers to "remember the Lord your God, for it is He who gives you power to get wealth", and the rest of the Old Testament is dotted with celebrations of God's bestowal of the good life. On at least one occasion--the so-called parable of the talents (a type of coin)--Jesus holds up savvy business practice (investing rather than saving) as a metaphor for spiritual practice. Yet he spent far more time among the poor than the rich, and a majority of scholars quote two of his most direct comments on wealth: the passage in the Sermon on the Mount in which he warns, "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth ... but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven"; and his encounter with the "rich young ruler" who cannot bring himself to part with his money, after which Jesus famously comments, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Both statements can be read as more nuanced than they at first may seem. In each case it is not wealth itself that disqualifies but the inability to understand its relative worthlessness compared with the riches of heaven. The same thing applies to Paul's famous line, "Money is the root of all evil," in his first letter to Timothy. The actual quote is, "The love of money is a root of all kinds of evil."

So the Bible leaves plenty of room for a discussion on the role, positive or negative, that money should play in the lives of believers. But it's not a discussion that many pastors are willing to have. "Jesus' words about money don't make us very comfortable, and people don't want to hear about it," notes Collin Hansen, an editor at the evangelical monthly Christianity Today. Pastors are happy to discuss from the pulpit hot-button topics like sex and even politics. But the relative absence of sermons about money--which the Bible mentions several thousand times--is one of the more stunning omissions in American religion, especially among its white middle-class precincts. Princeton University sociologist Robert Wuthnow says much of the U.S. church "talks about giving but does not talk about the broader financial concerns people have, or the pressures at work. There has long been a taboo on talking candidly about money."

In addition to personal finances, a lot of evangelical churches have also avoided any pulpit talk about social inequality. When conservative Christianity split from the Mainline in the early 20th century, the latter pursued their commitment to the "social gospel" by working on poverty and other causes such as civil rights and the Vietnam-era peace movement. Evangelicals went the other way: they largely concentrated on issues of individual piety. "We took on personal salvation--we need our sins redeemed, and we need our Saviour," says Warren. But "some people tended to go too individualistic, and justice and righteousness issues were overlooked."

A recent Sunday at Lakewood gives some idea of the emphasis on worldly gain that disturbs Warren. Several hundred stage lights flash on, and Osteen, his gigawatt smile matching them, strides onto the stage of what used to be the Compaq Center sports arena but is now his church. "Let's just celebrate the goodness of the Lord!" Osteen yells. His wife Victoria says, "Our Daddy God is the strongest! He's the mightiest!"

And so it goes, before 14,000 attendees, a nonstop declaration of God's love and his intent to show it in the here and now, sometimes verging on the language of an annual report. During prayer, Osteen thanks God for "your unprecedented favor. We believe that 2006 will be our best year so far. We declare it by faith." Today's sermon is about how gratitude can "save a marriage, save your job [and] get you a promotion."

"I don't think I've ever preached a sermon about money," he says a few hours later. He and Victoria meet with TIME in their pastoral suite, once the Houston Rockets' locker and shower area but now a zone of overstuffed sofas and imposing oak bookcases. "Does God want us to be rich?" he asks. "When I hear that word rich, I think people say, 'Well, he's preaching that everybody's going to be a millionaire.' I don't think that's it." Rather, he explains, "I preach that anybody can improve their lives. I think God wants us to be prosperous. I think he wants us to be happy. To me, you need to have money to pay your bills. I think God wants us to send our kids to college. I think he wants us to be a blessing to other people. But I don't think I'd say God wants us to be rich. It's all relative, isn't it?" The room's warm lamplight reflects softly off his crocodile shoes.

Osteen is a second-generation Prosperity teacher. His father John Osteen started out Baptist but in 1959 withdrew from that fellowship to found a church in one of Houston's poorer neighborhoods and explore a new philosophy developing among Pentecostals. If the rest of Protestantism ignored finances, Prosperity placed them center stage, marrying Pentecostalism's ebullient notion of God's gifts with an older tradition that stressed the power of positive thinking. Practically, it emphasized hard work and good home economics. But the real heat was in its spiritual premise: that if a believer could establish, through word and deed (usually donation), that he or she was "in Jesus Christ," then Jesus' father would respond with paternal gifts of health and wealth in this life. A favorite verse is from Malachi: "'Bring all the tithes into the storehouse ... and try Me now in this,' says the Lord of hosts. 'If I will not for you open the windows of heaven and pour out for you such blessing that there will not be room enough to receive it.'" (See boxes.)

It is a peculiarly American theology but turbocharged. If Puritanism valued wealth and Benjamin Franklin wrote about doing well by doing good, hard-core Prosperity doctrine, still extremely popular in the hands of pastors like Atlanta megachurch minister Creflo Dollar, reads those Bible verses as a spiritual contract. God will pay back a multiple (often a hundredfold) on offerings by the congregation. "Poor people like Prosperity," says Stephen Prothero, chairman of the religion department at Boston University. "They hear it as aspirant. They hear, 'You can make it too--buy a car, get a job, get wealthy.' It can function as a form of liberation." It can also be exploitative. Outsiders, observes Milmon Harrison of the University of California at Davis, author of the book Righteous Riches, often see it as "another form of the church abusing people so ministers could make money."

n the past decade, however, the new generation of preachers, like Osteen, Meyer and Houston's Methodist megapastor Kirbyjon Caldwell, who gave the benediction at both of George W. Bush's Inaugurals, have repackaged the doctrine. Gone are the divine profit-to-earnings ratios, the requests for offerings far above a normal 10% tithe (although many of the new breed continue to insist that congregants tithe on their pretax rather than their net income). What remains is a materialism framed in a kind of Tony Robbins positivism. No one exemplifies this better than Osteen, who ran his father's television-production department until John died in 1999. "Joel has learned from his dad, but he has toned it back and tapped into basic, everyday folks' ways of talking," says Ben Phillips, a theology professor at the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. That language is reflected in Your Best Life Now, an extraordinarily accessible exhortation to this-world empowerment through God. "To live your best life now," it opens, to see "your business taking off. See your marriage restored. See your family prospering. See your dreams come to pass ..." you must "start looking at life through eyes of faith." Jesus is front and center but not his Crucifixion, Resurrection or Atonement. There are chapters on overcoming trauma and a late chapter on emulating God's generosity. (And indeed, Osteen's church gave more than $1 million in relief money after Hurricane Katrina.) But there are many more illustrations of how the Prosperity doctrine has produced personal gain, most memorably, perhaps, for the Osteen family: how Victoria's "speaking words of faith and victory" eventually brought the couple their dream house; how Joel discerned God's favor in being bumped from economy to business class.

Confronting such stories, certain more doctrinally traditional Christians go ballistic. Last March, Ben Witherington, an influential evangelical theologian at Asbury Seminary in Kentucky, thundered that "we need to renounce the false gospel of wealth and health--it is a disease of our American culture; it is not a solution or answer to life's problems." Respected blogger Michael Spencer--known as the Internet Monk--asked, "How many young people are going to be pointed to Osteen as a true shepherd of Jesus Christ? He's not. He's not one of us." Osteen is an irresistible target for experts from right to left on the Christian spectrum who--beyond worrying that he is living too high or inflating the hopes of people with real money problems--think he is dragging people down with a heavy interlocked chain of theological and ethical errors that could amount to heresy.

Most start out by saying that Osteen and his ilk have it "half right": that God's goodness is biblical, as is the idea that he means us to enjoy the material world. But while Prosperity claims to be celebrating that goodness, the critics see it as treating God as a celestial ATM. "God becomes a means to an end, not the end in himself," says Southwestern Baptist's Phillips. Others are more upset about what it de-emphasizes. "[Prosperity] wants the positive but not the negative," says another Southern Baptist, Alan Branch of Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Kansas City, Mo. "Problem is, we live on this side of Eden. We're fallen." That is, Prosperity soft-pedals the consequences of Adam's fall--sin, pain and death--and their New Testament antidote: Jesus' atoning sacrifice and the importance of repentance. And social liberals express a related frustration that preachers like Osteen show little interest in battling the ills of society at large. Perhaps appropriately so, since, as Prosperity scholar Harrison explains, "philosophically, their main way of helping the poor is encouraging people not to be one of them."

Most unnerving for Osteen's critics is the suspicion that they are fighting not just one idiosyncratic misreading of the gospel but something more daunting: the latest lurch in Protestantism's ongoing descent into full-blown American materialism. After the eclipse of Calvinist Puritanism, whose respect for money was counterbalanced by a horror of worldliness, much of Protestantism quietly adopted the idea that "you don't have to give up the American Dream. You just see it as a sign of God's blessing," says Edith Blumhofer, director of Wheaton College's Center for the Study of American Evangelicals. Indeed, a last-gasp resistance to this embrace of wealth and comfort can be observed in the current evangelical brawl over whether comfortable megachurches (like Osteen's and Warren's) with pumped-up day-care centers and high-tech amenities represent a slide from glorifying an all-powerful God to asking what custom color you would prefer he paint your pews. "The tragedy is that Christianity has become a yes-man for the culture," says Boston University's Prothero.

Non-prosperity parties from both conservative and more progressive evangelical camps recently have been trying to reverse the trend. Eastern University professor Ron Sider's book Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger, a fringe classic after its publication in 1977, is selling far more copies now, and some young people are even acting on its rather radical prescriptions: a sprinkling of Protestant groups known loosely as the New Monastics is experimenting with the kind of communal living among the poor that had previously been the province of Catholic orders. Jim Wallis, longtime leader of one such community in Washington and the editor of Sojourners magazine, has achieved immense exposure lately with his pleas that Evangelicals engage in more political activism on behalf of the poor.

And then there is Warren himself, who by virtue of his energy, hypereloquence and example (he's working in Rwanda with government, business and church sectors) has become a spokesman for church activism. "The church is the largest network in the world," he says. "If you have 2.3 billion people who claim to be followers of Christ, that's bigger than China."

And despite Warren's disdain for Prosperity's theological claims, some Prosperity churches have become players in the very faith-based antipoverty world he inhabits, even while maintaining their distinctive theology. Kirbyjon Caldwell, who pastors Windsor Village, the largest (15,000) United Methodist church in the country, can sound as Prosperity as the next pastor: "Jesus did not die and get up off the Cross so we could live lives full of despair and disappointment," he says. He quotes the "abundant life" verse with all earnestness, even giving it a real estate gloss: "It is unscriptural not to own land," he announces. But he's doing more than talk about it. He recently oversaw the building of Corinthian Pointe, a 452-unit affordable-housing project that he claims is the largest residential subdivision ever built by a nonprofit. Most of its inhabitants, he says, are not members of his church.

Caldwell knows that prosperity is a loaded term in evangelical circles. But he insists that "it depends on how you define prosperity. I am not a proponent of saying the Lord's name three times, clicking your heels and then you get what you ask for. But you cannot give what you do not have. We are fighting what we call the social demons. If I am going to help someone, I am going to have to have something with which to help."

Caldwell knows that the theology behind this preacherly rhetoric will never be acceptable to Warren or Sider or Witherington. But the man they all follow said, "By their fruits you will know them," and for some, Corinthian Pointe is a very convincing sort of fruit. Hard-line Prosperity theology may always seem alien to those with enough money to imagine making more without engaging God in a kind of spiritual quid pro quo. And Osteen's version, while it abandons part of that magical thinking, may strike some as self-centered rather than God centered. But American Protestantism is a dynamic faith. Caldwell's version reminds us that there is no reason a giving God could not invest even an awkward and needy creed with a mature and generous heart. If God does want us to be rich in this life, no doubt it's this richness in spirit that he is most eager for us to acquire.
 

---

Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on :
 
Prosperity theology or Prosperity doctrine- is the doctrine that prosperity and success in business is external evidence of God's favor. This favor may be preordained, or granted in return for prayer or merit-making.

Prosperity theology is commonly a part of televangelist and pentecostal churches which claims God wants Christians to be successful in every way, especially in their finances.

The doctrine is used by its proponents to become wealthy at the expense of persons who give or that the doctrine's focus on material wealth is misguided.


***

You know, the more and more I hear the way properity teachers use the "F" word(Favor), the more I begin to hate what they have done to it.

Nowhere in God's word does it say prosperity and success in business is external evidence of God's favor.

I believe that it is all a scam.

You see, God will not make people increase in worldly wealth to show His favor just by them praying or giving to WOF ministry for that reason. It just will not happen!

All that the wolves such as Joel Osteen do is feed on the lusts of others, using religion as a crutch to support their evil habits and adding to their evil gains.

If you don't increase in worldy goods, Joel's excuse is that you just don't have enough "favor". That is air-tight explanation for the decieved.

Favor,
Favor,
Favor,

You know, that word is so thrown around by the Word-Of-Faith cult that it has lost its true meaning.

Now it seems so that most people who believe the lies of the Word-Of-Faith cult would rather be "Favor minded" than "Truth minded", tuning into fake preachers that would rather scratch their itching ears than keep it real.

Scripture fulfilled:

The Heresy: 2 TIMOTHY 4: 2-4 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Example of one of the Word-Of-Faith cult fables:
(Example)"Worldly prosperity and success in business is external evidence of God's favor."

I am extremely concerned about the few sincere seekers and new babes in Christ, they are the ones who concern me the most, it would be a tragedy for them to go to hell for believing the blasphemous doctrines of demons.

People who are decieved need to wake up and flee the man pleasing doctine of the Word-Of-Faith cult.

It is so twisted how the few sincere seekers and new babes in Christ are being brainwashed into believing in the hellish doctrine of these money-loving talking wolves.

I didn't know the wolf could speak til' the day I saw the truth.
 

---

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Itty-Bitty Girl has been hammering this one for some time....

Does God Want You To Be Rich?

The same question could be phrased like this….. “Does Yahweh (God) want to destroy you?

Jam 5:1 Go to now, [ye] rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon [you].

Mat 19:23-24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. (This same text can be found in Mark 10:25 and Luke 18:25)

Luk 1:53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.

Luk 6:24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.

1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and [into] many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

1Ti 6:17-18
Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not high-minded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

Jam 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

Does Yahweh want to meet your needs? Yes He does

Does Yahweh want your bank full of money so you can live like a king while those around you do without? No He does not

Does Yahweh want to make you so rich with the things of this world you trust in your abundance and forget your source and supply? No He does not.

George Mueller was a living demonstration of how Yahweh places riches in the hand of a man, and how those riches should be used. …

In his lifetime, George Mueller received over 2 1/2 million dollars (when a million really was a million) --always making his requests known only to God, but when he died he had no money left behind in a bank account. He had transferred his riches to the Kingdom of Yahweh.

http://www.christianadoption.com/goals/mueller.htm
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Very good points both of you Dale and Rose. Rose, I especially liked your thoughts on favor. I do believe that we are highly favored by God being HIS children, however, I was reading your post and thinking about those in the Bible who we can see were also highly favored... think of Joseph. Joseph was highly favored... God gave him favor with pharaoh and every where that Joseph went favor followed him and this allowed God to provide for his people.... for Joseph's family during the famine.

Think of Daniel... Daniel's favor allowed him to be in a position of great power in Babylon and that surely contributed to the fact that the Hebrews even in captivity prospered.

God gave Esther favor with the King that she was able to save the Jews.

Nehemiah was given favor before Artexerxes that he was able to begin the rebuilding of Jerusalem and bring freedom to Judah.

When I think of GOd's blessing and favor, I think of these verses:

Pr 10:22 The blessing of the LORD, it maketh rich, and he addeth no sorrow with it.

How many do you know with vast amounts of the wealth of this world that have no sorrow that comes with their wealth?

and this one.. when we have wealth it is for this purpose..not the lavishing of self.

De 8:18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.

Jas 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

Dale: you always have a way of hitting the nail square on the head. Must be the carpenter in you. Pun intended.

The same question could be phrased like this….. “Does Yahweh (God) want to destroy you?

Jam 5:1 Go to now, [ye] rich men, weep and howl
for your miseries that shall come upon [you].
 

---

Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:

How many do you know with vast amounts of the wealth of this world that have no sorrow that comes with their wealth?

and this one.. when we have wealth it is for this purpose..not the lavishing of self.

De 8:18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:


Jas 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Post Patrol:
"Poor people like Prosperity," says Stephen Prothero, chairman of the religion department at Boston University. "They hear it as aspirant. They hear, 'You can make it too--buy a car, get a job, get wealthy.' It can function as a form of liberation." It can also be exploitative. Outsiders, observes Milmon Harrison of the University of California at Davis, author of the book Righteous Riches, often see it as "another form of the church abusing people so ministers could make money."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
If it is the will of God that all Christians be rich, then why are there poor Christians?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
Are these poor people preventing God's will from coming to pass?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:

Can mortal man limit God and stop His will from happening?

---

No.

No way, no how.

Joel Osteen, one of the members of the Word-Of-Faith cult preaches that sinful man has dominion and superiority over God. According to Joel Osteen, the Lord so desperately wants to give us our heart's desires, but we frustrate His will of blessing for our lives.

All the while, scriptures declare a God whose will cannot fail to achieve its purposes:

Daniel 4:35 (King James Version)
"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"
 

---

Posted by J4Jesus (Member # 1367) on :
 
i'm thinking no
 

---

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Are you thinking no? I'm thinking, that depends on what God wants to do with me, and on who He can trust with His riches:

Matthew 25:23
His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Luke 16:11
If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?

Luke 16:12
And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?

Who shall give you that which is your own?

God will make some poor, and He will make some rich, some very rich.

Just to see how other people will react to them, for instance. Does so and so extend mercy?

I saw a great line on a singles Internet profile once. It was of a Christian woman who said she'd like to find a man who knew how to extend mercy to the people he met during the day.

Deuteronomy 8:17
And thou say in thine heart, My power and the might of mine hand hath gotten me this wealth.

Deuteronomy 8:18
But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.

To summarize, God can and does make poor and rich men and women and children. God has His own reasons. At times nothing more than to record how people will react:

Matthew 18:33
Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

Luke 10
32And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

33But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him.

"Go and do you likewise." As characters, God needs poor and rich people.

Be blessed.

Eden
 

---

Posted by trafield (Member # 5358) on :
 
Eden,
It is refreshing to see your balanced approach to the Word. It is amazing how the legalistic crowd (that most likely has more wealth and blessings in this country than the majority of the rest of the world) sits in their comfy rooms on their computers and points an accusing finger at "the rich."

As I have often tried to explain, it is a matter of the heart. The Word speaks out against the wealthy when they are greedy, selfish, and not honoring God with their wealth as they are told to do in Proverbs 3:9.

So there are people who are blessed by God with wealth. Others do not show themselves to be able to handle wealth and are blessed in other ways....all according to God's plan for their lives. But the Word is clear...He wants us to prosper.

Many blessings to you!
 

---

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
truly I have only presented one side of the equation from my first post.

Truly Yahweh lets the rain fall on the just and the unjust.

It is Yahweh that allows anyone to get what and where he/she gets. But that doesn’t mean it is the best thing for the individual.

Hitler got wealth, Yahweh allowed it; I don’t think it was of any help to bring him to righteousness or used for righteousness..

George Bush family they got wealth, but the fruit on their trees prove where they will spend eternity unless they repent.

I would like to be wealthy, if Yahweh knew I could handle it (I don’t believe on “Once Saved Always Saved” damnable doctrine the way so many preach it.) So I pray Father do not let me have more of anything than you know I am mature enough to handle.

In my first post on this thread, I wrote only in showing the terrible damage that has been caused in the church by the Bennie Hinns, Joel Osteens, Kenneth Copelands and the like false teachers.

I am not against Yahweh blessing people financially, I am truly all for it but not to see people take that wealth and spend it on their covetous hearts only to end up with the care of this world choking out the life of Yahweh..

in another post , I pointed out that Yahweh had put 2 1/2 million dollars in one mans hands and he gave it away to take care of orphans, he used just enough to live a simple life with no exorbitant life styles.

GEORGE MUELLER (1805-1898)

If we were to list only a few men of God that have had the most influence upon the Christian Adoption ministry, the life and example of George Mueller would have to appear in that list.

Of course--our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is the perfect example for us to follow and to imitate.

George Mueller was a man of faith and miracles. Certainly he was one of the greatest prayer warriors of the past century. His ministry was prospered because he trusted fully in God and he started a work that was born in his heart. During his ministry of 63 years, he supported missionaries, established the Scriptural Knowledge Institute in England, taught Sunday schools as well as day schools where teachers were Christian, distributed Bibles and religious tracts, and cared for orphans. He was directly involved in the Christian instruction of 121,683 pupils. He distributed 281,652 Bibles, 1,448,662 New Testaments, 21,343 copies of the Book of Psalms, and 222,196 other portions of the Holy Scriptures. He financially supported missionary operations in 26 different countries. He distributed 111,489,067 tracts/booklets/pamphlets, and was directly involved in the conversion of 2,813 orphans. He mastered 6 languages: French, German, Hebrew, Latin, Greek, and English.

Mr. Mueller was a native of Prussia, born in Kroppenstaedt, on September 27, 1805. He looked, after the shadow of God's glory rested upon him, beyond time and saw God. He realized that God alone was able, and in that realization the puny supplies of man dwarfed beside the reservoirs of God's grace which he tapped by faith. He learned the secret of getting things from God, the simple expedient of boldly coming to the throne to receive. He practiced this daily for 73 years, and in coming he never found the throne vacant nor the supplies exhausted. He learned not to bind God by the limits of his own faith. He asked, knowing that God, Who heard, was able.

Near the end of his life he affirmed that he had read the Bible through approximately 200 times, 100 of which was on his knees. He found God's promises in the Bible and experienced the truth of them in his everyday life. He learned to believe what he read and to act accordingly. He learned to tell not man but God his needs and to believe God would supply them. Mueller had mastered the lesson of outlooks--for he lived by the heavenly uplook, and not the earthly outlook!

"The Lord pours in, while we seek to pour out." This was always his plan of operation. He sought God to pour in the supplies, and he diligently furnished sources through which they might be distributed. As long as Mueller saw to the careful distribution of money and supplies, God never failed in pouring in the needed materials.

Mr. Mueller testified that in his lifetime 50,000 specific prayers were answered. Years before he died, about he middle of his career, he affirmed that up to that time 5000 of his definite prayers had been answered on the day of asking. He made it a habit to keep a notebook with 2-page entries. On one page he gave the petition and the date, and on the opposite page he entered the date of the answer. In this manner he was able to keep record of definite petitions, and their specific answers. He recommended this form to believers who desired specific results to their prayers. Thus there is no guesswork as to when God answers prayers.

"…I live in the spirit of prayer. I pray as I walk about, when I lie down and when I rise up. And the answers are always coming. Thousands and tens of thousands of times have my prayers been answered. When once I am persuaded that a thing is right and for the glory of God, I go on praying for it until the answer comes. George Mueller never gives up!"

"Let not Satan deceive you, " writes Mr. Mueller during those faith-wrenching days, "in making your think you could not have the same faith, but that is only for persons situated as I am. When I lose such a thing as a key, I ask the Lord to direct me to it, and I look for an answer to my prayer; when a person with whom I have an appointment does not come…I ask the Lord to be pleased to hasten him to me, and I look for an answer…Thus in all my temporal and spiritual concerns I pray to the Lord and expect an answer to my request; and may not you do the same dear believing reader?"

In giving advice gained through daily trials of his faith, this father of the orphans laid down rules for a Christian to follow by which they might also strengthen their faith. These rules are:

1. Read the Bible and meditate upon it. God has become known to us through prayer and meditation upon His own Word.

2. Seek to maintain an upright heart and a good conscience.

3. If we desire our faith to be strengthened, we should not shrink from opportunities where our faith may be tried, and therefore, through trial, be strengthened.

The last important point for the strengthening of our faith is that we let God work for us, when the hour of trial of our faith comes, and do not work a deliverance of our own. Would the believer therefore have his faith strengthened, he must give God time to work.

There was no detail too insignificant to take to the Lord in prayer. He lived literally according to the passage, "In all things by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known unto God." "Real trust in God is above circumstances and appearances," he affirmed.

…the Mueller's set off for the United States in August 1877 aboard the Sardian…Off Newfoundland the weather turned cold and the ship's progress was seriously retarded by fog. The captain had been on the bridge for 24 hours when something happened which was to revolutionize his life. George Mueller appeared on the bridge.

"Captain, I have come to tell you I must be in Quebec by Saturday afternoon."

"It is impossible," said the captain.

"Very well, " said Mueller, "if your ship cannot take me, God will find some other way--I have never broken an engagement for 52 years. Let us go down into the chart-room and pray."

The Captain wondered which lunatic asylum Mueller had come from.

"Mr. Mueller," he said, "do you know how dense this fog is?"

"No, my eye is not on the density of the fog, but on the living God, who controls every circumstance of my life."

Mueller then knelt down and prayed simply. When he had finished the captain was about to pray, but Mueller put his hand on his shoulder, and told him not to.

"First, you do not believe He will' and second, I believe He has, and there is no need whatever for you to pray about it."

The captain looked at Mueller in amazement.

"Captain," he continued, I have known my Lord for 52 years, and there has never been a single day that I have failed to get an audience with the King. Get up, captain, and open the door, and you will find the fog is gone."

The captain walked across to the door and opened it. The fog had lifted. It was the captain himself, who later told the story of this incident, and who was subsequently described by a well known evangelist as "one of the most devoted men I ever knew."

It was prayer that swept his soul free of doubt, distemper, and the after-effects of a trial by the incoming tide of peace. For this reason he could make such remarks as this entry on March 9, 1847, "The greater the difficulties, the easier for faith." And a later one, "The greater the trial, the sweeter the victory."

His victories came through prayer, trust in the Lord's unfailing promises and a faith that God's truth would not fail.

"It is not enough to begin to pray," he advises us, "nor to pray aright; nor is it enough to continue for a time to pray; but we must patiently, believingly continue in prayer, until we obtain an answer; and further, we have not only to continue in prayer unto the end, but we have also to believe that God does hear us and will answer our prayers. Most frequently we fail in not continuing in prayer until the blessing is obtained, and in not expecting the blessing."

During the last year of Mr. Mueller's life, among the gifts (for the feeding of the orphans) recorded were 7, 203 loaves of bread; 5,222 buns; 20 boxes of soap; 9 tons of coal; 26 haunches of venison; 112 rabbits; 312 pheasants; 5 bags of oatmeal; 26 cases of oranges; 5 boxes of dates and 4,013 pounds of meat along with hundreds of other items. Additionally he had prayed for the financial needs of the orphan houses and had during the course of his lifetime received over 2 1/2 million dollars--always making his requests known only to God. All of these gifts were needed to help care for and feed the thousands of orphans under his careful wing.

George Mueller was a living demonstration of the reality of the Scripture, "But my God shall supply all our need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus." (Philippians 4:19)
 

---

Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eden:
Are you thinking no? I'm thinking, that depends on what God wants to do with me, and on who He can trust with His riches:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eden:

Matthew 25:23
His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eden:

Luke 16:11
If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?

Luke 16:12
And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?

Who shall give you that which is your own?.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eden:

God will make some poor, and He will make some rich, some very rich.

Just to see how other people will react to them, for instance. Does so and so extend mercy?

I saw a great line on a singles Internet profile once. It was of a Christian woman who said she'd like to find a man who knew how to extend mercy to the people he met during the day.

Deuteronomy 8:17
And thou say in thine heart, My power and the might of mine hand hath gotten me this wealth.

Deuteronomy 8:18
But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:

How many do you know with vast amounts of the wealth of this world that have no sorrow that comes with their wealth?

and this one.. when we have wealth it is for this purpose..not the lavishing of self.

De 8:18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by trafield:
Eden,
It is refreshing to see your balanced approach to the Word. It is amazing how the legalistic crowd (that most likely has more wealth and blessings in this country than the majority of the rest of the world) sits in their comfy rooms on their computers and points an accusing finger at "the rich."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by trafield:

As I have often tried to explain, it is a matter of the heart. The Word speaks out against the wealthy when they are greedy, selfish, and not honoring God with their wealth as they are told to do in Proverbs 3:9.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by trafield:

So there are people who are blessed by God with wealth. Others do not show themselves to be able to handle wealth and are blessed in other ways....all according to God's plan for their lives. But the Word is clear...He wants us to prosper.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
LISTEN CAREFULLY: the only people who ever get those million dollar homes and fancy cars by viewers giving are the preachers preaching this filthy lucre nonsense and receiving the offerings from Christians who "give to get." It's all about greed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
God also calls to be humble, all over the place in the bible. How humble are you being if you live in a 4,000 square foot house and a $60,000 dollar car. Unless you really have need for all that space, your just showing off. Now we can't really judge others for how they spend the money God has allowed them to aquire, but you need to judge yourself what your doing with what God has given you it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
You could very well have a huge house and not neccessarly need, but not be showing off or being greed. You could also have a expensive cars and not showing off also. My point was you need to examine how your using what God has given you and your motives on how you spend. Cause you could be an archetect or a contracter and like building your own big house and its like a hobby. I don't see anything wrong with that at face value. The same goes with cars and other things. Somethings people happen to really, innocently, enjoy doing and they happen to be expensive.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
You could very well have a huge house and not neccessarly need, but not be showing off or being greed. You could also have a expensive cars and not showing off also. My point was you need to examine how your using what God has given you and your motives on how you spend. Cause you could be an archetect or a contracter and like building your own big house and its like a hobby. I don't see anything wrong with that at face value. The same goes with cars and other things. Somethings people happen to really, innocently, enjoy doing and they happen to be expensive.

---

Hey BrianGrass, have you ever asked yourself this?: If you want to be like the rich and have numerous multi-million dollar homes and drive fancy $200,000 cars, is that God's will for your life? To own symbols of status in this world?

When we have wealth, it is for this purpose...not the lavishing of self:

Deuteronomy 8:18 "But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day."

Who can possess worldly earthly treasures with spiritual heavenly motives?

Matthew 6:19-21: "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
I was just getting the vibe that some were being a little hard on having wealth.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
I'm just trying to say we really shouldn't be to quick to judge others on how much money they have or how the spend it, but to be carefull how we spend our money.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
We can judge what others are saying in Gods name, but we cannot judge what is in anothers heart, thats for them and God to sort out. Just because someone owns a big house or a fancy car does not mean that there motives are sinful. We don't know their heart, only God does.

---

I may have you all wrong but I believe that you are saying that I am judging people's hearts, and I do no such things, all that I do is read the word of God and believe the word of God, and speak the truth here about the word of God. I am not judging any person. I judge by God's word, this would make it God's judgement, not mine.

God says these things, not me. God is doing the judging here, with His word.

Matthew 6:19-21: "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."
 

---

Posted by trafield (Member # 5358) on :
 
I just heard a great sermon on this topic today from John MacArthur. Many here, , would do well to listen to the wisdom of this sermon.

http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/grace_to_you/

Treasures in Heaven, Part 1
Monday, September 25, 2006 Henry Ford said, "Money is like an arm or a leg - use it or lose it." Question is, though . . . how do you use money the right way . . . and how do you keep it from controlling you? Series: Mastering Your Money
 

---

Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on :
 
PROSPERITY PREACHERS ARE SUCH CON ARTISTS.

THERE THEY GO, DECIEVING THE HEARTS OF PEOPLE.


These people must be disapproved of... I ask all of you to believe that what I am saying is true. Break free and follow God, see the light.

Please do not allow people such as Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer and other members of the Word-Of-Faith cult to scam you out of your cash.

It is just a smoke screen, my brothers and sisters. There's a bigger picture.


As mentioned months ago:

"Many preachers are living VERY high on the hog because poor souls have given their last dollar in the hopes of grasping the brass ring.

This is sad indeed.

These preachers live in multi-million dollar homes in gated communities, posh golf course communities, with lavish lifestyles, with their wives shopping mostly in Dior and Chanel boutiques, wearing mostly designer gold/diamond watches and owning Learjets and yachts-- While the dollars keep rolling in and in and in, some poor soul believes the hellish doctrine that these preachers are preaching and this poor soul believes that someday, he too will have a Rolls Royce.

The only people getting a return from this kind of preaching are the preachers themselves and their families."
 

---

Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on :
 
This is how I believe someone in the Word-Of-Faith prosperity teacher's church is feeling right now:

"I have stayed in the faith, where is my reward? Where is my favor?

Where is my multi million-dollar home?

Where are my luxury cars?

Where is my prosperity blessing? I am not getting paid.

The more I pay tithes to your church, the more seeds I sow; the more I get in debt.

Where is the money at?

Where is the money at?

Where is the money at?...

Do I need more faith? More favor?

I keep giving all and getting nothing, so I guess, by the Word-Of-Faith prosperity teacher's standards, I am failure as a Christian.

I smile in church to hold back the tears , I appear fine to others , but on the inside, I am depressed and withering away ."

***

That poor soul will never get those worldly things that he desires!

It is a scam!

While the dollars keep rolling in and in and into the Word-Of-Faith prosperity teacher's pocket, some poor soul believes the hellish doctrine that they are preaching and this poor soul believes that someday, he too will have a Rolls Royce.

Does the Word-Of-Faith cult have any shame? It is so sad how people give, and give, and give, and tithe, and tithe, and tithe, sewing seed after seed, after seed, only to get something in return!

I HATE THE VICIOUS CYCLE OF GREED!

***

I believe I have told the story of a few victims and oppressed people caught up in the Word-Of-Faith cult heretical movement, they are the sincere seekers and new babes in Christ, who believe they have no hope. I know from experience, I used to be one of them.

Run, sheep!!!

I warn you all to ruuuuuuun!

Flee the Word-Of-Faith prosperity doctrine!

There are talking blood-thirsty cutthroat wolves in the pulpit!
 

---

Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on :
 
Run, sheep, run or the wolf'll eeeeeeat you!
 

---

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Itty Bitty Girl, I do want to thank you for opening my eyes to this subject as the extravagance that you describe Joyce Myer (JM) engages in (I'm assuming it is still extravagant?), and that spending mega-wealth on oneself if one is a bornagain Christian to the tune of $17,000 for a faucet (or whatever).

I wanted to ask you, though, about this. I think you said that someone like JM is FLEECING THE FLOCK.

Don't these people actually FLOCK to hear HER? I was just wondering, increase my understanding, don't these people WILLINGLY PAY for whatever tapes, donations to the assembly hall rent, and books that JM sells.

I was wondering, IN WHAT WAY do you consider that FLEECING THE FLOCK? When a shepherd goes out to FLEECE THE FLOCK, the shepherd has to GRAB the sheep and FLEECE THE SHEEP AGAINST ITS WILL.

My question is, "If the people who FLOCK to hear JM speak WILLINGLY GIVE HER THEIR FLEECE, how are they BEING fleeced? I was just wondering...

Be blessed everyone.

Eden
There is only one kingdom. Come and find a place inside.
 

---

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Hi, Itty-Bitty Girl. You said:

Run, sheep, run or the wolf'll eeeeee at you!

Eden here:

What did Jesus say?

Luke 10
2Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.

3Go your ways: look, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.

Lambs are young sheep. He sent us among wolveeeeeees, Itty-Bitty Girl, not to:

"Run, sheep, run or the wolf'll eeeeee at you!"

Jesus said He sent us as lambs {sheep} among wolves. What ya doin' runnin' from the wolves?

And why are the sheep among the wolves? To help save the wolves. So we can't run from the wolves when our assignment among the wolves is to SAVE THE WOLVES.

Be blessed.
 

---

Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eden:

My question is, "If the people who FLOCK to hear JM speak WILLINGLY GIVE THEIR FLEECE, how are they BEING fleeced? I was just wondering...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eden:

Hi, Itty-Bitty Girl. You said:

Run, sheep, run or the wolf'll eeeeee at you!

Eden here:

What did Jesus say?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eden:

Luke 10
2Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.

3Go your ways: look, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.

Lambs are young sheep. He sent us among wolveeeeeees, Itty-Bitty Girl, not to:

"Run, sheep, run or the wolf'll eeeeee at you!"

Jesus said He sent us as lambs {sheep} among wolves. What ya doin' runnin' from the wolves?

---

quote:

---

PROSPERITY PREACHERS ARE SUCH CON ARTISTS.

THERE THEY GO, DECIEVING THE HEARTS OF PEOPLE.

---

I think it is you who are deceived and trying to deceive in your own pride, young one.
Not John MacArthur.
And I think you know it...which is why you flood your topics with responses to your own questions...so you can attempt to silence the truth with your many finger-pointing posts of deception.

You may want to keep in mind that in regards to God's judgement...He does not care how young you are... you are old enough to attack others, old enough to ignore Truth and deceive, and certainly old enough to be judged for your actions.

And I pray you take this rebuke to heart.
 

---

Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 
I have no doubt that God does want us to prosper. But when we do we are to help others. Not horde it for ourselves. If your motive for prospering is so you will be blessed and you are not going to bless others then your motive is wrong.
 

---

Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by David:
I have no doubt that God does want us to prosper. But when we do we are to help others. Not horde it for ourselves. If your motive for prospering is so you will be blessed and you are not going to bless others then your motive is wrong.

---

Amen and amen and amen to that!
 

---

Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 
Maybe this story from the bible will help you see we are not to fleece the flock:

2 Kings 5:14-27 (TLB)

14So Naaman went down to the Jordan River and dipped himself seven times, as the prophet had told him to. And his flesh became as healthy as a little child’s, and he was healed! 15Then he and his entire party went back to find the prophet; they stood humbly before him and Naaman said, “I know at last that there is no God in all the world except in Israel; now please accept my gifts.”
16But Elisha replied, “I swear by Jehovah my God that I will not accept them.”
Naaman urged him to take them, but he absolutely refused. 17“Well,” Naaman said, “all right. But please give me two muleloads of earth to take back with me, for from now on I will never again offer any burnt offerings or sacrifices to any other god except the Lord.£ 18However, may the Lord pardon me this one thing—when my master the king goes into the temple of the god Rimmon to worship there and leans on my arm, may the Lord pardon me when I bow too.”
19“All right,” Elisha said. So Naaman started home again.
20But Gehazi, Elisha’s servant, said to himself, “My master shouldn’t have let this fellow get away without taking his gifts. I will chase after him and get something from him.”
21So Gehazi caught up with him. When Naaman saw him coming, he jumped down from his chariot and ran to meet him.
“Is everything all right?” he asked.
22“Yes,” he said, “but my master has sent me to tell you that two young prophets from the hills of Ephraim have just arrived, and he would like $2,000 in silver and two suits to give to them.”
23“Take $4,000,” Naaman insisted. He gave him two expensive robes, tied up the money in two bags, and gave them to two of his servants to carry back with Gehazi. 24But when they arrived at the hill where Elisha lived,£ Gehazi took the bags from the servants and sent the men back. Then he hid the money in his house.
25When he went in to his master, Elisha asked him, “Where have you been, Gehazi?”
“I haven’t been anywhere,” he replied.
26But Elisha asked him, “Don’t you realize that I was there in thought when Naaman stepped down from his chariot to meet you? Is this the time to receive money and clothing and olive farms and vineyards and sheep and oxen and servants? 27Because you have done this, Naaman’s leprosy shall be upon you and upon your children and your children’s children forever.”
And Gehazi walked from the room a leper, his skin as white as snow.
 

---

Posted by trafield (Member # 5358) on :
 
Who is saying or has said we are to fleece the flock?
I think we are now all saying the same thing...yet for some reason the spirit of divisiveness is so strong in some here that they hate to admit that we actually agree on some things and so come across as if they are still disagreeing.

Yet why an Amen to David's post...when myself and John MacArthur have said the same thing? Never mind...I already answered it above.
 

---

Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by David:
Maybe this story from the bible will help you see we are not to fleece the flock:

2 Kings 5:14-27 (TLB)

14So Naaman went down to the Jordan River and dipped himself seven times, as the prophet had told him to. And his flesh became as healthy as a little child’s, and he was healed! 15Then he and his entire party went back to find the prophet; they stood humbly before him and Naaman said, “I know at last that there is no God in all the world except in Israel; now please accept my gifts.”
16But Elisha replied, “I swear by Jehovah my God that I will not accept them.”
Naaman urged him to take them, but he absolutely refused. 17“Well,” Naaman said, “all right. But please give me two muleloads of earth to take back with me, for from now on I will never again offer any burnt offerings or sacrifices to any other god except the Lord.£ 18However, may the Lord pardon me this one thing—when my master the king goes into the temple of the god Rimmon to worship there and leans on my arm, may the Lord pardon me when I bow too.”
19“All right,” Elisha said. So Naaman started home again.
20But Gehazi, Elisha’s servant, said to himself, “My master shouldn’t have let this fellow get away without taking his gifts. I will chase after him and get something from him.”
21So Gehazi caught up with him. When Naaman saw him coming, he jumped down from his chariot and ran to meet him.
“Is everything all right?” he asked.
22“Yes,” he said, “but my master has sent me to tell you that two young prophets from the hills of Ephraim have just arrived, and he would like $2,000 in silver and two suits to give to them.”
23“Take $4,000,” Naaman insisted. He gave him two expensive robes, tied up the money in two bags, and gave them to two of his servants to carry back with Gehazi. 24But when they arrived at the hill where Elisha lived,£ Gehazi took the bags from the servants and sent the men back. Then he hid the money in his house.
25When he went in to his master, Elisha asked him, “Where have you been, Gehazi?”
“I haven’t been anywhere,” he replied.
26But Elisha asked him, “Don’t you realize that I was there in thought when Naaman stepped down from his chariot to meet you? Is this the time to receive money and clothing and olive farms and vineyards and sheep and oxen and servants? 27Because you have done this, Naaman’s leprosy shall be upon you and upon your children and your children’s children forever.”
And Gehazi walked from the room a leper, his skin as white as snow.

---

Very, very, good, DAVID! I think I remember that story, two years ago, I read that and laughed.


It is nowadays, that the false teachers of the Word-Of-Faith heretical cult such as Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer want to be like Gehazi, like he didn't get stuck with leprosy.

Ask yourself: how can one take money from people who give to the Lord's work and reward themselves with the luxuries of this world?
 

---

Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by trafield:

quote:

---

PROSPERITY PREACHERS ARE SUCH CON ARTISTS.

THERE THEY GO, DECIEVING THE HEARTS OF PEOPLE.

---

I think it is you who are deceived and trying to deceive in your own pride, young one.
Not John MacArthur.
And I think you know it...which is why you flood your topics with responses to your own questions...so you can attempt to silence the truth with your many finger-pointing posts of deception.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by trafield:

You may want to keep in mind that in regards to God's judgement...He does not care how young you are... you are old enough to attack others, old enough to ignore Truth and deceive, and certainly old enough to be judged for your actions.

And I pray you take this rebuke to heart.

---

quote:

---

I think it is you who are deceived and trying to deceive

---

quote:

---

Tracy, do you feel that there is anyone out there fleecing the flock today? I know that you agree with David that GOD desires us to prosper and I also agree with this; but truthfully, I think (and I am ready for you to correct my error) but I at this point I think that the disagreement occurs because there are folks that David, and I, and even MacArthur might agree are fleecing the flock today that you would disagree with us about that or them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by trafield:
I am quite certain that there are people who are using the tithes and offerings from believers for selfish gain...But I really don't know or care who you think is "fleecing the flock." This has always been my point. The person "fleecing" is accountable to God alone, as is the person who is faithfully giving, regardless of what is done with the money.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by trafield:

But I find it rather hypocritical that I am told to provide concrete proof of Rose's wrong motives, when many here constantly accuse others of all kinds of wrong doings without any evidence. This is being a slanderer and will be judged by God.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by trafield:

As far as Rose goes, her own accusation of John MacArthur and others without any firsthand knowledge of wrongdoings shows her motives are contrary to God's Word. So I stand by my comments and declare that her own words of condemnation accuse herself.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by trafield:

I see the problem as with those who ignore God's Word about his desire to prosper, ignore his commandment of tithing and warnings of robbing God, and so therefore would rather point the finger and accuse others of fleecing to somehow justify their lack of faithfulness in giving financially in the first place. And to attempt to persuade others of this folly by accusing others of their wrong-doing, justified or unjustifed, is from the pit of Hell.

I hope I am now crystal clear.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eden:
Hi, Itty-Bitty Girl. The part I find interesting is that all these Word-of-Faith false prophets are all so good at co-ercing and have so many ploys.

Do you think that all of these Word-of-Faith teachers started out okay, like you and me, and as they acquired Bible knowledge, the Word-of-Faith teachers came to a point where they said to themselves:

Aha! If I tell them that "if they don't give to me then they are robbing God" and so I will take their money?"

Let's look at this for a moment. In general terms, the Word-of-Faith movement begins sort of with Kenneth Hagin, out of whom came Kenneth Copeland, out of whom came Jesse Duplantis and Creflo Dollar and Joyce Myer, more or less.

We have to go back in Christianity to the 1970s or 1980s or so when Kenneth Hagin first began to think about these things, and after him the Copelands and so on.

It was like a period in Christian history. This cannot suddenly be wiped out as if it never should have happened, could it?

The Word-of-Faith teacher Kenneth Hagin started out okay in Bible knowledge, like you and me, and as he acquired more Bible knowledge, then came the day that this first Word-of-Faith teacher said to himself:

Aha! If I tell them that "if they don't give me their money that they are robbing God" and so I will take all their money?"

Do you think that Kenneth Hagin came to that conclusion one day "to rob them by telling them they are robbing God" and implemented it with a great relish and devilish intent?

And do you think that Kenneth Hagin was able to pass this "ploy to get so much money out of these gullible believers" on to the Copelands successfully, and they to Creflo Dollar and Joyce Myer, to name a few of them?

Do you think that each one of them made a conscious decision within themselves and said, "yes, I will do that too; I will fleece them by telling them that unless they give to me, they are robbing God" and I too will live a life of luxury?

It is hard for me to believe that so much conniving and evil-intent coordination can have taken place among bornagain Christians who presumably all started out in the right way, just like you and me.

But thank God, you and me are still ok, and that means a lot to me. But we should exhort them to stop using those hateful ploys that cause the flock to give them so much money.

Be blessed, IBG.

Eden

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eden:
Hi, Itty-Bitty Girl. You said,

This person {Trafield} appears to be the only hypocrite here, no one else.

Eden here:

Does that mean, "I'm good to go"?

Be blessed.

Eden

---

I cannot process this, Eden.
 

---

Posted by Sennaria (Member # 6104) on :
 
I am very nervous about even posting on this as all I have read is so heartfelt, and I am so new here. I look forward to getting to know everyone very much and am very glad that I found this bulleting board.

With that said, I believe more along the lines of Eden, if I recall correctly. That there is a balance. I do not believe it is correct or for us to call "WOF" all heretics or a teaching heretical as God uses those ministries just as much as He does any other of this I am sure. And we all as individuals will stand accountable to Him for what we do. Ministries will never be "cookie cutter" and should not be "cookie cutter" all the same. People have different needs at different times and God uses all for His glory.

Are there scam artists out there? Yes there are, but it is for God to deal with, not us. If someone were to give to a "scam artist" preacher, they get a crown in Heaven for their action, but if the money is used wrong, the person using the money wrongly will pay the repercussions.

I believe one gets into dangerous waters if they start blanket pointing fingers at a message or a group of people. Everyone is different and God uses many different approaches and types of messages to reach people. Is no good at all done by these ministries? Very very doubtful, they are not, a lot of good is done through them.
I do not buy into the "people are being forced are coerced", that takes away a persons free will. We all have free will and people will buy books products because they want to and feel the need to, and if it is wrong, God will eventually intercede. But it is wrong for anyone to judge anyone else, of this I know.
In ministry there is balance, God created the world in balance, His word is in balance even, especially now that Jesus has fulfilled the Law. Every person should take what they hear preached to them and go to the Bible themselves to determine if what they are hearing is biblical/scriptural or not. I am not fond of the word scriptural as many things said are scriptural, however, they are no longer relevant as in any scriptures regarding sacrifice as Jesus is our ultimate sacrifice for our sins. We all know one scripture can be taken from the Bible and interpreted to mean many things, because it is taken out of context. One pastor of a church I attended said right from the pulpit, do not take what I say as Gospel, go to the Book and learn for yourself.

The Holy Spirit dwells within each of us, who are born-again, and it is through Him that we are given the discernment to know a false prophet or a false teaching. But to take a message from a preacher/pastor/evangelist and say that because of that particular message everything about that ministry is wrong, is not for us to determine either. I will see a show or hear a show, a christian show and then I will hear the plea for money, and sometimes that little flag goes up as to "this is just a money making scam" and sometimes it doesn't give me that impression at all. Sometimes a show will almost seem like an infomercial, to those I give no heed to, but that is my decision to make by what I feel God has told me or taught me or the Spirit is telling me.

I remember a time when it was taught in the church that all christians should be poor, we should have nothing and if you did you weren't Christian, is this biblical?

I believe it pretty much boils down to this:
No pastor/preacher/evangelist should ever be taken at his/her word 100% of the time, without your own time being spent in studying what they are teaching. No Pastor/preacher/evangelist is ever going to be correct 100% of the time. Why? Because we all have the same fatal flaw. We are human and we all are sinners 'cept for the savings grace and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. Does this mean that any souls that their ministry was used by God to save aren't saved? Of course not, and that is what is most important. There is not a single pastor/preacher/evangelist anywhere that I would nor should nor should anyone believe 100% of the time at face value, but that doesn't mean that God isn't using Him to reach people, it means that it also comes down to the individual to rely on their relationship with the Lord to be able to discern right and proper teaching. This is an individual responsibility, to be sure that what we hear is right and proper and Biblical.

I come from a very very strict legalistic background that flowed over into my spiritual life. I still battle the image that God is up there just waiting for me to screw up and point His finger at me and punish me for it. Some of these very same people that are being attacked here are the same people that helped me realize that that is not the God that is in Heaven. But I also do NOT buy into the give me 1000 dollars and you'll make 100,000 that some of them can say. Thus the balance comes in and overall, I just believe that one should take whatever one hears and learns and go to God for substantiation, He is our ultimate Teacher after all.

Don't shoot the whole ministry because of one message.

Well I did it, I stepped out, don't slam me too badly
 

---

Posted by Favor Minded (Member # 4661) on :
 
I believe she is deceived - At least in part.

First, she continues to accuse me of being that end time person, and in PM's has openly called me at outright liar, and said that I am lying to myself and that she knows ALLLLLL about me -

Not likely - I wonder how much she really knows about us, our missions, etc...

Secondly, she accuses Joel Osteen of begging for money -

He does not ask for money, and he does not take a check from the church (The church DOES NOT pay him a salary)

To openly say these things about others is wrong, regardless of whether they agree with them or not.

He may indeed give a watered down, no repentance teaching, but to say he is openly asking for their money, and taking a big paycheck to support a lavish lifestyle is wrong.

I know -

And, Lakewood gives MILLIONS to African missions like our own.

Unlike others, like the Joyce Meyer compound, he truly does do these things with the money -

Anyway - I am not defending Joel, but rather pointing out that your Itty Bitty is a itthy bit deceived.

She openly accuses where there is no foundation, only assumptions -

And, quite frankly, I am tired of her accusing me of being someone else, and calling me a liar.

Ministry is about seeing souls saved -

Example - We are heavily involved now in the H2O project - Building wells in Africa -

These people will walk hours to get a bucket of muddy, disease infested water - Children die EVRY 8 seconds because of this...

While Itty is here, accusing me of being a liar, churches like Lakewood are providing the means to build these wells, as are we -

That is a mission and commission - Making assumptions, calling people heretics and cults with no foundation, is, as Tracy pointed out, DECEIVED....

Yes, there are flock fleecers, like Creflo, Bynum, Paula White, etc....

They get on and do the praise a thon thing to get your last $5 - They WILL answer for this - But to lump them all into one, and accuse where there is no proof, is wrong...
 

---

Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sennaria:

With that said, I believe more along the lines of Eden, if I recall correctly. That there is a balance. I do not believe it is correct or for us to call "WOF" all heretics or a teaching heretical as God uses those ministries just as much as He does any other of this I am sure. And we all as individuals will stand accountable to Him for what we do. Ministries will never be "cookie cutter" and should not be "cookie cutter" all the same. People have different needs at different times and God uses all for His glory.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sennaria:

Are there scam artists out there? Yes there are, but it is for God to deal with, not us.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sennaria:

If someone were to give to a "scam artist" preacher, they get a crown in Heaven for their action, but if the money is used wrong, the person using the money wrongly will pay the repercussions.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sennaria:


I believe one gets into dangerous waters if they start blanket pointing fingers at a message or a group of people. Everyone is different and God uses many different approaches and types of messages to reach people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sennaria:

Is no good at all done by these ministries? Very very doubtful, they are not, a lot of good is done through them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sennaria:

I do not buy into the "people are being forced are coerced",

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Favor Minded:

First, she continues to accuse me of being that end time person, and in PM's has openly called me at outright liar, and said that I am lying to myself and that she knows ALLLLLL about me -
Not likely - I wonder how much she really knows about us, our missions, etc...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Favor Minded:

He may indeed give a watered down, no repentance teaching, but to say he is openly asking for their money, and taking a big paycheck to support a lavish lifestyle is wrong.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Favor Minded:

And, Lakewood gives MILLIONS to African missions like our own.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Favor Minded:

Ministry is about seeing souls saved -

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Favor Minded:

Secondly, she accuses Joel Osteen of begging for money -

---

quote:

---

The senior Osteen was CLEARLY known as a Word Faith teacher, and regularly preached this aberrant prosperity "gospel." Oh and then there’s this little bit of information from Osteen himself:

"Sometimes it is hard for us to grasp that God wants us to prosper in every way...God wants us to prosper financially, to have plenty of money, to fulfill the destiny He has laid out for us. One of the most important Biblical principles that shows us how to prosper is the principle of sowing and reaping...

People tell me, "Joel, He is God. If He wants to bless me, He can." Friend, God works by laws. You can't expect to reap a harvest without first planting your seeds. If you will be faithful and do what God is asking you to do, God will do His part. Don't let the enemy deceive you into holding on to your seed--get it into the ground!

As you read this, God may be speaking to your heart. Trust that He will direct you how and where He wants you to sow your seed. If you are moved to send a seed gift in the enclosed reply envelope..." (Joel Osteen, letter from his ministry 2005 as cited at http://www.myfortress.org/JoelOsteen.html ).


Busted; anyone REMOTELY familiar with the Cult of the Word Faith Movement recognizes this blatant pitch for money, but apparently, when you smile a lie becomes less of a lie to the Evangelical camp.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:

What'chu know about that?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Favor Minded:

Please do tell Rose what sowing and reaping mean, in context, in the bible?

I am truly curious what you believe this is about in God's word.

I have seen MANY MANY seeds planted, and in turn seen these same seeds grow into huge blossoms.

Do you think the Lord is speaking metaphorically?

What do you believe God meant by saying God is not mocked?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:

What'chu know about that?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Favor Minded:

What do you think God meant when he said he will promote who he will and you are to pray for them.

What do you think God meant when he wrote the book of Malachi in the old testament.

What do you think God meant when he said that when you handle a little WELL, he will put you in charge of MUCH?

Instead of the usual quote yourself over and over citing "Joel and Joyce are heretics!!" stuff, how about a genuine response to what these biblical principles mean, to you...

Can you process that?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
It is nowadays, that the false teachers of the Word-Of-Faith heretical cult such as Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer want to be like Gehazi, like he didn't get stuck with leprosy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
Yes. Like Gehazi, the false teachers of the Word-Of-Faith cult like Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer tell lies to even get the money from others in the first place.

Word-Of-Faith false teachers get the money by telling lies, like Gehazi. In doing that, they are fleecing the flock by coercing them with lies to give.

---

Hmmmmm. Now that I am thinking about it more, I believe that what Gehazi did back then is not even half as bad as what the Word-Of-Faith cult teachers are doing nowadays.

What Gehazi did, does not even come close to what these false teachers of today such as Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen are doing.:

Gehazi lied and said, "Elisha said": and from Elisha, got struck with leprosy.

Word-Of-Faith cult teachers such as Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen lie and say, "God says": and from God, will get an even greater punishment if they continue to lead others in their pernicious ways.
 

---

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Hi, Itty-Bitty Girl. You said something like: "Joel Osteen and Joyce Myer were telling lies" to get people to give them money.

Eden here:

From what I have seen, MOST of the people in those meetings of Osteen and Myer and others like them, the people IN the meetings HAVE BIBLES with them.

And I think a lot of them have actually READ the Bible that they have brought with them to the meetings.

My honest question therefore is, "How can Osteen and Myer (and others like them) TELL LIES to the audience, and the audience DOESN'T NOTICE that such and such is a lie?

Most of them know their Bible fairly well, so how can that be? That's the part that puzzles me about you're saying.

Be blessed.

Eden
 

---

Posted by trafield (Member # 5358) on :
 
Great point, Eden.

I am sure when we are standing before the Lord to give an account of our lives, pointing the finger and blaming others for our deception is not going to fly.

Romans 14:4-13
Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
One man considers one day more sacred than another, another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord.
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
You then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgement seat. It is written:

"As surely as I live, says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tounge will confess to God.'"

So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. Therefore, let us stop passing judgement on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.

God is in control and he knows who are is, and let all who are his say, "Amen."
 

---

Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
Prosperity theology or Prosperity doctrine- is the doctrine that prosperity and success in business is external evidence of God's favor. This favor may be preordained, or granted in return for prayer or merit-making.

Prosperity theology is commonly a part of televangelist and pentecostal churches which claims God wants Christians to be successful in every way, especially in their finances.

The doctrine is used by its proponents to become wealthy at the expense of persons who give or that the doctrine's focus on material wealth is misguided.


***

You know, the more and more I hear the way properity teachers use the "F" word(Favor), the more I begin to hate what they have done to it.

Nowhere in God's word does it say prosperity and success in business is external evidence of God's favor.

I believe that it is all a scam.

You see, God will not make people increase in worldly wealth to show His favor just by them praying or giving to WOF ministry for that reason. It just will not happen!

All that the wolves such as Joel Osteen do is feed on the lusts of others, using religion as a crutch to support their evil habits and adding to their evil gains.

If you don't increase in worldy goods, Joel's excuse is that you just don't have enough "favor". That is air-tight explanation for the decieved.

Favor,
Favor,
Favor,

You know, that word is so thrown around by the Word-Of-Faith cult that it has lost its true meaning.

Now it seems so that most people who believe the lies of the Word-Of-Faith cult would rather be "Favor minded" than "Truth minded", tuning into fake preachers that would rather scratch their itching ears than keep it real.

Scripture fulfilled:

The Heresy: 2 TIMOTHY 4: 2-4 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Example of one of the Word-Of-Faith cult fables:
(Example)"Worldly prosperity and success in business is external evidence of God's favor."

I am extremely concerned about the few sincere seekers and new babes in Christ, they are the ones who concern me the most, it would be a tragedy for them to go to hell for believing the blasphemous doctrines of demons.

People who are decieved need to wake up and flee the man pleasing doctine of the Word-Of-Faith cult.

It is so twisted how the few sincere seekers and new babes in Christ are being brainwashed into believing in the hellish doctrine of these money-loving talking wolves.

I didn't know the wolf could speak til' the day I saw the truth.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
Yes. Like Gehazi, the false teachers of the Word-Of-Faith cult like Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer tell lies to even get the money from others in the first place.

Word-Of-Faith false teachers get the money by telling lies, like Gehazi. In doing that, they are fleecing the flock by coercing them with lies to give.

---

Hmmmmm. Now that I am thinking about it more, I believe that what Gehazi did back then is not even half as bad as what the Word-Of-Faith cult teachers are doing nowadays.

What Gehazi did, does not even come close to what these false teachers of today such as Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen are doing.:

Gehazi lied and said, "Elisha said": and from Elisha, got struck with leprosy.

Word-Of-Faith cult teachers such as Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen lie and say, "God says": and from God, will get an even greater punishment if they continue to lead others in their pernicious ways.

---

quote:

---

This has always been my point. The person "fleecing" is accountable to God alone, as is the person who is faithfully giving, regardless of what is done with the money.

---

quote:

---

I see the problem as with those who ignore God's Word about his desire to prosper, ignore his commandment of tithing and warnings of robbing God, and so therefore would rather point the finger and accuse others of fleecing to somehow justify their lack of faithfulness in giving financially in the first place.

---

quote:

---

I believe it pretty much boils down to this:
No pastor/preacher/evangelist should ever be taken at his/her word 100% of the time, without your own time being spent in studying what they are teaching. No Pastor/preacher/evangelist is ever going to be correct 100% of the time. Why? Because we all have the same fatal flaw. We are human and we all are sinners 'cept for the savings grace and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.

---

quote:

---

I agree that GOD desires HIS people to prosper. I agree that we cannot should not must not deny this. I think that you have no way of knowing what people here are giving or are not giving and so you should proceed with those kinds of judgments carefully as well as knowing what motivates someone to speak against fleecing the flock. I disagree with the Tithe for the new testiment church being scriptural. We have discussed this else where, but do not believe that there is scriptural support for "tithing" by the NT church, but I believe with all my heart that the NT church is called to give and give with JOY and thanksgiving, and give with ... with abundance... without restraint... give as much as we can give to the furthering of God's word and the ministry to the saints and the evangelism of the lost.

---

quote:

---

I agree that GOD desires HIS people to prosper. I agree that we cannot should not must not deny this. I think that you have no way of knowing what people here are giving or are not giving and so you should proceed with those kinds of judgments carefully as well as knowing what motivates someone to speak against fleecing the flock. I disagree with the Tithe for the new testiment church being scriptural. We have discussed this else where, but do not believe that there is scriptural support for "tithing" by the NT church, but I believe with all my heart that the NT church is called to give and give with JOY and thanksgiving, and give with ... with abundance... without restraint... give as much as we can give to the furthering of God's word and the ministry to the saints and the evangelism of the lost.

---

quote:

---

There is far too much need and lack in our own local congregations that are not being met and we need to be looking at why.

---

Maybe because you teach against tithing?? Just a wild guess.
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Tracy: I dont seem to be able to say much of anything to you recently that you do not hear as something I do not feel or am not projecting or saying. It seems that what I say offends and if I say nothing that offends too. I am truly sorry for this. Perhaps you will pray that GOD will work on my communications skills, that what I am trying to express is heard exactly as I intended it when it left my keyboard.


For the rocord: I have no problem agreeing with you or praising you for the things that I see that you are right on about and there are many many things that I think that you are right on about. Always have been.

Tithing is not one of them. Sorry.

I have always been very specific about Semantics. I believe that GOD is also. I believe that Tithe is a specific doctrine...a legal term. I do not believe that the giving that we do is tithe. Tithe was ordered in a specific amount. Tithe was given in specific instance for specific purpose to specific people. The whole principle of tithe is different than the principles involved in the NT church's ministry to each other.

quote:

---

I do not think I have to proceed carefully with my statments at all. For I know studies show the vast number of people who attend church also do not give regularly. I have personally seen how difficult it is to get the majority of church-goers to do anything for the Lord except show up on Sunday and put their 90 minutes or so in. So I am very comfortable in my assumptions that the vast majority here also do not give regularly, especially if they feel that tithing is no longer valid.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Post Patrol:
"Poor people like Prosperity," says Stephen Prothero, chairman of the religion department at Boston University. "They hear it as aspirant. They hear, 'You can make it too--buy a car, get a job, get wealthy.' It can function as a form of liberation." It can also be exploitative. Outsiders, observes Milmon Harrison of the University of California at Davis, author of the book Righteous Riches, often see it as "another form of the church abusing people so ministers could make money."

---

Shame, shame, shame. Millions could be affected by this new powerful Word-Of-Faith heretic cult movement. I'm sure the devil is having a good laugh at this one.

---

Amen! And I do so hate to give him anything to laugh about.
 

---

Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
If it is the will of God that all Christians be rich, then why are there poor Christians?

---

There are poor Christians because it is NOT God's will that all Christians be rich, just as everyone is NOT supposed to be healed.

It is OKAY for a Christian to be poor, as it is OKAY for a Christian to be sick.

EVERYONE is not going to be rich, as EVERYONE is not going to be healed.

It is NOT okay to say that the poor and sick are in that state because they have no favor -Aw man, there goes that "F" word again.

The word "favor" has been corrupted by wicked Word-Of-Faith heretic modern-day Pharisees. They don't see it because they are blinded by their own self righteousness.

The wicked modern-day Pharisees tear down the poor and sick, they degrade the poor and the sick.


It sickens me... It drives me to righteous anger. Word-Of-Faith cult and all of its supporters seem to have so much bitterness, they are being so judgmental about the poor and sick.

I feel they should be asking themselves. "What if I am grieving the Holy Spirit?

---

quote:

---

Sometimes it is hard for us to grasp that God wants us to prosper in every way...God wants us to prosper financially, to have plenty of money, to fulfill the destiny He has laid out for us. One of the most important Biblical principles that shows us how to prosper is the principle of sowing and reaping...

People tell me, "Joel, He is God. If He wants to bless me, He can." Friend, God works by laws. You can't expect to reap a harvest without first planting your seeds. If you will be faithful and do what God is asking you to do, God will do His part. Don't let the enemy deceive you into holding on to your seed--get it into the ground!

---

Joel Osteen, one of the members of the Word-Of-Faith cult preaches that sinful man has dominion and superiority over God. According to Joel Osteen, the Lord so desperately wants to give us our heart's desires, but we(mortal man) frustrate His will of blessing for our lives.


All the while, scriptures declare a God whose will cannot fail to achieve its purposes:

Daniel 4:35 (King James Version)
"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"


How twisted and disgusting is that? I believe that Joel Osteen is trying to say that mortal man has the power to limit God.

That is disgusting.

When I hear cutthroat prosperity preachers twist more and more scripture, so that they can add to their own selfish gain, it proves their love of money.

1 Timothy 6:9-11
“But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.”

They try to make the word of God say as they will it to, and that truly disgusts me, it proves that these people have no love for God.
 

---

Posted by Pleasemaranatha (Member # 5150) on :
 
Think of this and enjoy. Smile and have joy from the words and annointing. Have peace and a great day in the Lord.

youtubeSandPatti
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 

quote:

---

Linda,
I just feel you are walking both sides of the fence here..we should give, but not tithe?

Regardless, I will agree to disagree with you on this one as I am at peace with giving my weekly tithe as you are apparently at keeping it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:

Joel Osteen the wolf, said:

quote:

---

Sometimes it is hard for us to grasp that God wants us to prosper in every way...God wants us to prosper financially, to have plenty of money, to fulfill the destiny He has laid out for us. One of the most important Biblical principles that shows us how to prosper is the principle of sowing and reaping...

People tell me, "Joel, He is God. If He wants to bless me, He can." Friend, God works by laws. You can't expect to reap a harvest without first planting your seeds. If you will be faithful and do what God is asking you to do, God will do His part. Don't let the enemy deceive you into holding on to your seed--get it into the ground!

---

Joel Osteen, one of the members of the Word-Of-Faith cult preaches that sinful man has dominion and superiority over God. According to Joel Osteen, the Lord so desperately wants to give us our heart's desires, but we(mortal man) frustrate His will of blessing for our lives.


All the while, scriptures declare a God whose will cannot fail to achieve its purposes:

Daniel 4:35 (King James Version)
"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"


How twisted and disgusting is that? I believe that Joel Osteen is trying to say that mortal man has the power to limit God.

That is disgusting.

When I hear cutthroat prosperity preachers twist more and more scripture, so that they can add to their own selfish gain, it proves their love of money.

1 Timothy 6:9-11
“But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.”

They try to make the word of God say as they will it to, and that truly disgusts me, it proves that these people have no love for God.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:

quote:

---

Linda,
I just feel you are walking both sides of the fence here..we should give, but not tithe?

Regardless, I will agree to disagree with you on this one as I am at peace with giving my weekly tithe as you are apparently at keeping it.

---

Tracy, I am glad you are at peace with your tithing.

But really you have no idea what we give, or how often, or to whom, and I have no need to boast to you or anyone else about the frequency of our giving and I certainly will not waive around a 10% pinch of our income and tell you that we feel justified and at peace our giving. In our home we do not feel that 90% is ours to keep. In our home our giving is done prayerfully and the Lord leads us in our giving, and I am at peace with that.

But I will again caution you regarding the justness of your judgements and your bearing false witness against your brethren in things that you have no idea about.I believe that you called that Slander. Didn't you?

---

Amen to your posting, Linda.
 

---

Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 
I sure think that when you think you HAVE to tithe you might as well keep it because your heart is not right. I will say it again. We are to give all we can, NOT just 10% and not to build a church building or pay the preacher. We are to give to help others and to spread the gospel. If you give because you think 10% is all that is required of you, then you are fooling yourself. God wants all of you. And when you give to a church that spends all their money on themselves and don't even have any left for missions you will surely answer to God for that. We are not told just to walk out and hand God's money to just anyone for any cause. We are to do as He told us and help the widows and orphans. When you are pressured into giving to the building fund or to pay hired clergy because they have a big ego to build an empire, you will answer for it. Why one would think that giving to a church rather then giving to someone in need, is giving to God I don't know. The preacher and the elders are NOT God. God don't horde for Himself, He gives and told us it is better to give then to receive. Please stop worshiping the religious machine and start worshiping God.

When you pressure God's people to give and take the money and spend it on your on needs and to build a bigger better building, your are surely robbing God. God don't live in a building anymore, but in the people that could be helped if the majority of the churches would stop hording it.

Preacher need to stop learning how to beg for money and learn how to share the gospel of Jesus Christ with the world. We are to share the gospel of Jesus Christ with the world be cause we love the people and want them saved, not so we can get their money and build a bigger building. I know this has to be the biggest turn off for non-christians.

A good rule of thumb is, if the preacher has to beg for money, then He don't know God. God owns it all and will bless His people without them having to beg. So give to good ministries that are not begging and then you will receive a blessing.

THE ENDTIME CHURCH AS PETER SAW IT

Peter describes the church in the latter days:

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily [secretly] shall bring in damnable [destructive, fatal, disastrous, ruinous] heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And MANY shall follow their pernicious [lascivious, licentious, wanton] ways; by reason of whom the way of the truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness [greed, lust] shall they with feigned words MAKE MERCHANDISE OF YOU" (II Pet. 2:1-3). Other renderings:

"Motivated by greed, they will exploit you with their counterfeit arguments" (Berkely Version).

"…in their lust they will exploit you with cunning arguments" (Moffatt Translation).

"In their greed for MONEY they will trade on your credulity with sheer fabrications"`(The New English Bible).

HELP THE NEEDY, NOT THE GREEDY

Give to the fatherless, the orphans, the strangers, the widows, the poor, and the needy, the homeless, and the beggar on the street, as God gives to you, the wherewithal. Give to reputable charities if you have extra. Give to your family members and relatives in need—don’t humiliate them by making them ask you first. Give to a neighbor in financial distress. Even when tipping someone, let it be a reflection of the One that you are representing in your Christian walk. Our God is a generous God—may you become generous also. Develop a "love for giving." Paul tells us in Acts 20:35b to:

Remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how He said, IT IS MORE BLESSED TO GIVE THAN TO RECEIVE
 

---

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Hi, David. You wrote: Help the needy, not the greedy.

Eden here:

That may work if the giving is to a homeless mission or a church, but when people flock to hear Joyce Myer speak, it is not about helping the needy, but neither is it exactly about helping the greedy.

My main point is that people WANT to go hear Joyce Myer speak, including, as I said earlier, many Bible-carrying and Bible-knowledgeable people.

I have a question, though. Does anyone know whether Joyce CHARGES A FEE for coming to hear her speak, or do people in the audience make DONATIONS.

I realize there is some peer pressure to give when one is among a crowd, most of whom are giving something. But does anyone know if the amount that people give to Joyce is voluntary or preset by Joyce, else "ya ain't coming in" type of thing?

Whether it is a preset fee or a donation is important, because if it is a donation, and no one is saying "you MUST buy this tape or book or else you are not getting out of the door", if I were a police investiator, I would have to say that "no crime was being committed here."

I'm reminded here of a statement one of you above made, that "don't trust any preacher 100%, but go home and check it out in the Bible to make sure that it is so."

Itty-Bitty Girl brought up Malachi's often used scripture, something about "God said not to rob Him, so if you must give to me".

However, isn't part of that group of verses also say that "God will open the windows of heaven" and "will rebuke the devourer for your sake", provided that you "bring your tithes into the storehouse."

My question is, does giving a donation at a favorite speaker and buy the tape and books by that favorite speaker constitute "bringing tithes into the storehouse"?

Thanks, and be blessed.

Eden
 

---

Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eden:

Itty-Bitty Girl brought up Malachi's often used scripture, something about "God said not to rob Him, so if you must give to me".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eden:
My question is, does giving a donation at a favorite speaker and buy the tape and books by that favorite speaker constitute "bringing tithes into the storehouse"?
Eden

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by David:

Finally, some who argue for tithing say that it predates the Law, as in the case of Abram, yet they use a passage of scripture like Malachi chapter 3 that was appropriate under the law, to support their argument. This is another theological contradiction. In conclusion, the Malachi text should not be used to badger God's people to give.

---

quote:

---

Modern-Day Teachings

In recent years, tithing has been taught in Christian circles as a form of "stewardship" that God requires of Christians.

The primary argument is that God has never formally "abolished" the tithe, and thus Christians should pay the tithe (usually calculated at 10 percent of all gross income from all sources), usually to the local congregation

(though some teach that a part of the tithe can go to other Christian ministries, so long as total giving is at least 10 percent).


Some holding to prosperity theology doctrines go even further, teaching that God will bless those who tithe and curse those who do not.

***

Opponents argue that the only Biblical references to the tithe occurred (or referenced events that occurred) during the period of Mosaic Law, applicable only to Jews.

They further argue that Jesus taught He came to "fulfill" the Law, which they believe occurred at His crucifixion,

and therefore Christians are no longer obligated to pay a minimum amount, but should give only as God specifically directs them to do (which may be more or less than 10 percent).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:

Hmmmm. I wonder, do such people holding to the prosperity doctrine, such as the WORD OF FAITH cult, also twist verses in Malachi to fit their sick agendas?

---

quote:

---

There are poor Christians because it is NOT God's will that all Christians be rich, just as everyone is NOT supposed to be healed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thunderz7:
by Itty-Bitty Girl

quote:

---

There are poor Christians because it is NOT God's will that all Christians be rich, just as everyone is NOT supposed to be healed.

---

Mt.8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Maybe you could explain how Jesus willed that the leper be healed, thus respecting him more than these persons, you say, it is not his will to heal.

3 John 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

God the Holy Spirit wishes/wills that we prosper and be in health as our souls prosper.
Did Jesus die for all?
Was His Blood not shed to save, heal and deliver all who would receive?
Does He not want all souls to prosper?

Sometimes even those who don,t attend a mainline denominational group are still under the influence of man-made denominational doctrine and brainwash.

T7

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thunderz7:
by Itty-Bitty Girl

quote:

---

There are poor Christians because it is NOT God's will that all Christians be rich, just as everyone is NOT supposed to be healed.

---

Mt.8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Maybe you could explain how Jesus willed that the leper be healed, thus respecting him more than these persons, you say, it is not his will to heal.

3 John 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

God the Holy Spirit wishes/wills that we prosper and be in health as our souls prosper.
Did Jesus die for all?
Was His Blood not shed to save, heal and deliver all who would receive?
Does He not want all souls to prosper?


T7

---

quote:

---

So by this are you saying that a sick person is going against the will of God, and is preventing God's will from happening?

---

NO, that is not what I said.

By the time I read my post, decide the end wasn't appropriate, and went back to edit it, you had already read it, quoted it, asked a question and posted;
you aren't just sitting on this thread a you?

T7
 

---

Posted by Thunderz7 (Member # 31) on :
 
Itt-Bitty Girl says

quote:

---

This looks to me like a bunch of twisted scripture to fit your agenda, T7.

I'm not even sure that I can process this.

This really needs to be broken down.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thunderz7:
Itt-Bitty Girl says

quote:

---

This looks to me like a bunch of twisted scripture to fit your agenda, T7.

I'm not even sure that I can process this.

This really needs to be broken down.

---

What agenda might that be?


T7

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thunderz7:
Itt-Bitty Girl ask

quote:

---

So by this are you saying that a sick person is going against the will of God, and is preventing God's will from happening?

---

NO, that is not what I said.

By the time I read my post, decide the end wasn't appropriate, and went back to edit it, you had already read it, quoted it, asked a question and posted;
you aren't just sitting on this thread a you?

T7

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thunderz7:


Maybe you could explain how Jesus willed that the leper be healed, thus respecting him more than these persons, you say, it is not his will to heal.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thunderz7:
Itty-Bitty Girl,
I used copy and paste on the scripture portion from a Bible program, that uses KJV.

I am not KJV only, so if you want to use another version that would be fine with me.

I changed nothing from the KJV, so if the scripture portion is twisted, someone who made the Bible program did it,
though I doubt seriously that is the case.

Do you find something twisted in the statement I made on - God the Holy Spirit?

Where is this agenda in -
Did Jesus die for all?
Was His Blood shed to save, heal and deliver all who would receive?
Does He want all souls to prosper?

Just to be clear and not to hide an "agenda",
I would answer all three of these questions "yes".
If your answers don't match mine fine.

If you don't want to give explination on your opinion of the healing of the leper and its association to respect of persons, showing that it isn't God's will to be heal all, that's fine;
just though you might explain you position.

If the portion I edited offended you, I did try to edit it quickly, just not quick enough.
I give apology, as I said before, it wasn't appropriate.

T7

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eden:
Hi, Itty-Bitty Girl. You said, in so many words (my copy function doesn't work), "when did I ever say that you are robbing God if you don't give to me. Are you lying on me, Eden?"

Eden here: I think you said that the Word-of-Faith teachers say that (not to rob God so you must give me your money) to their congregation to get the congregation to give them money. You called that fleecing the flock, remember?

"a kind word turns away wrath, a harsh word stirs it up".

Be blessed.

Eden

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by bought@paid4:

Matthew 19: 23- 26

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus, beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.


Jesus was saying that rich people were hard to get saved because they trust in themselves and their own riches and don't think they have need of God, but he also said that with God it is possible to get rich people saved.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by bought@paid4:

2 Corinthians 6: 10
As sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, yet possessing all things.

If it's a sin to be rich than why are they rich enough to make others rich while all the while remaining humble as a poor person in heart?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by bought@paid4:

2 Corinthians 9:10
Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.

They were rich and helped the poor causing God to be praised. God gets no glory from poverty.
And if there are no rich people and everyone is poor, who can help the poor as Jesus commanded?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by bought@paid4:

Galatians 2: 10
Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

If God wants us all poor, then why are we suppose to help the poor? And how can we help anyone if we are poor? And if God desires us to help the poor than obviously he doesn't want any of us to be poor.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:

Where is the humility in the lavishing of self?

You need to keep it real and give to the needy, what since does it make to buy and drive a $200,000 car, passing by needy homeless people starving on the streets?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by bought@paid4:
2. Corinthians 8: 9
For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that you through his poverty might be rich.

That's pretty clear there. Jesus became poor to provide us blessings of prosperity. Jesus also took stripes to provide our physical healing. Jesus shed his blood on the cross for the remission of our sins. Prosperity, healing, and forgiveness are all included in our blood covenant with God.

Jesus was rich in heaven before He came to earth and He is rich again. If being rich is a sin than God is guilty which is impossible because God cannot and does not sin. If it is a sin for us, it is a sin for Him as well. You can't have it both ways. God is righteous and He fully lives by the righteousness of the law that He gave to us.

What is the harm in people being rich? God doesn't think there's harm in it. He wants us blessed. God does not want us to suffer and be in lack. Being poor does not make us holy. Only the blood of Jesus makes us holy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by bought@paid4:

Itty bitty girl,

You have to take into consideration the whole of God's word about each subject to be able to understand what God is telling us. You can't pick and choose a couple little verses and ignore the many verses that say different than what you concluded from those few little verses.

Here are some more verses about God's will for our prosperity:

In Luke chapter 12 we can clearly see that Jesus was not against anyone being rich, but against coverousness, greed, selfishness.

In verse 21 he says, "So is he that lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God." So is he what? see verse 20 "Thou fool...".
Jesus was simply saying that someone who hords wealth is foolish because life is not about how much you can accumilate here. Then Jesus goes on to say that God will provide all we need; plus more.

verse 27
Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

Verse 28
If then God so clothe the grass which is today in the field, and tomarrow cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith?

Did you catch that? Solomon was the richest man that ever lived; God clothes the grass with lillies which are clothed much better than Solomon ever was; God will clothe you even better than the lilies which were clothed better than Sololmon ever was.

In verse 31 and 32 Jesus said instead of trying on your own, as the world does, to seek after all these riches, seek first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added to you. The Kingdom of God is inside of us when we get born again, so once we get born again, part of our covenant blessings is therefore prosperity.

---

quote:

---

Okay, okay, okay.

That passage is NOT talking about money. To say such a thing is disgusting, I hate when people do that. It makes me sick.

I saw a preacher on T.V. do that last year and it made me so mad. That "worldly rich jesus ploy" is just one of the many ploys of people who corrupt the word of God and pervert the gospel of Christ.

Just despicable twisting of the scripture. I really do hate that.


In full context:

2 Corinthians 8:7-9 (King James Version)

"Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.

I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.

For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by bought@paid4:
Itty biity wrote:

quote:

---

Okay, okay, okay.

That passage is NOT talking about money. To say such a thing is disgusting, I hate when people do that. It makes me sick.

I saw a preacher on T.V. do that last year and it made me so mad. That "worldly rich jesus ploy" is just one of the many ploys of people who corrupt the word of God and pervert the gospel of Christ.

Just despicable twisting of the scripture. I really do hate that.


In full context:

2 Corinthians 8:7-9 (King James Version)

"Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.

I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.

For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich."

---

Okay then, what did he become poor in? He didn't become poor in faith, love, diligence, or grace. So what exactly do you think he became poor in?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:


Though he was rich, as being God, equal in power and glory with the Father, yet he not only became man for us, but became poor also. At length he emptied himself, as it were, to ransom their souls by his sacrifice on the cross. From what riches, blessed Lord, to what poverty didst thou descend for our sakes! and to what riches hast thou advanced us through thy poverty! It is our happiness to be wholly at thy disposal."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eden:
After all, Joyce Myer did not get rich preaching Buddha or preaching Allah; she got rich preaching Jesus, Amen? Hallelujah!

My question still kinda is, eventhough she washes at a $17,000 faucet (acc to IBG), why can the money not be considered fully hers, just like my money is completely mine?

I mean, it is up to me what I do with my money, isn't it? And if so, why is Joyce Myer excluded from owning her own money and making her own decisions of what to do with it? I mean, she is probably as surprised as anyone that this happened to her.Eden

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eden:


So let me ask you. I am assuming that you have SOME money yourself. Would you care to inspire us on how to use all OUR money for the glory of God by telling us how YOU are currently using "all your money for the glory of God"?

Be blessed.

Eden

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by David:


You should listen to the below message:

Prosperity Gospel Lie


Thank you,
David

---

Very, very, good. I am listening to it as I type this message. THAT is on point and is very in line with the word of God! I love it!

I couldn't have said it any better myself.

I like the way he talks, he has a real strong thick powerful voice. Very convincing.

Those scriptures used by him are not twisted! I am so glad that I am listening to it.

This is a real blessing.

 

---

Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on :
 
God must be glorified.
 

---

Posted by ahar (Member # 5810) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by David:
This is the point!!!!!! She got her money from God's people! It is not her's. If she got it from working a secular job, then that would be different, BUT she is getting it from God's people who give it to her because they think she is using it all to spread the gospel, not to make herself RICH.

Ephesians 4:28 (NIV)
He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.

If she wants money of her own she needs to stop fleecing the flock and start a secular business where the money would then be hers to do as she pleases. And she would need to start the business with money she got from actually working and not fleecing to start that business. People think they are giving to God, but are actually giving to her so she can pad her pockets.

It is not right!

Period

Matthew 21:12 -13(KJV)
12And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

This really angered the Lord Jesus Christ and He refered to them as THIEVES.

People need to open their eyes and wake up. We are not to sale the gospel.

GET A JOB if you are out to be rich, don't steal it from God's people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ahar:
There are also ways of making money that also provide a clear benefit to people - David running the Christian web sites for example.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by David:
I sure wish you would show me where I am making money from running Christian web sites? Please don't talk about things you know nothing about.

Thank you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by David:

You are still missing the point. There is a big difference in spending money you made in an honest job and spending money you took up in a collection from God's people.

---