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Author Topic: Does God Want You To Be Rich?
helpforhomeschoolers
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Hi All: I am going to address a couple of you in one post, I hope you dont mind.

Tracy: Thanks for your reply. I am sorry that you saw my question as hipocritical. Please know that I was not trying to ask you for concrete evidence of anything, I was trying to understand what it was that you felt she was deceived about and why.

There are a couple of things that you said that I dont agree with because I dont belive the scripture supports them and I would like to share them.

quote:
This has always been my point. The person "fleecing" is accountable to God alone, as is the person who is faithfully giving, regardless of what is done with the money.
I dont believe that the scripture supports this because we are supposed to be a body and when one member of the body is in sin it affects the whole body. Jim gave the example of Joyce Meyer and her compound and I will use that to illustrate because I believe it is a good example. Joyce Meyer does a lot of Charitable giving. She has to because if she did not she would have a hard time justifying continuing to ask for more and more money only to support the lifestyle that the minstry provides for her and her family. So her giving is very public. This is alone is contrary to scripture, as are her teachings that her abundance is living proof of her faithfulness or her many battles to avoid paying taxes. When those things are taught publically...either by our words or our witness,I believe the body as a whole is harmed as is our witness to the world as a Body.

When dollars that would be given in the local church but instead are solicited by her or others like her...and given, even though they are given faithfully, I believe the body is harmed... the local church is missing out on the opportunity to send out themselves and be first hand involved in ministry... the local church is short funds that GOD gave for providing for local needs of the local body itself.

There is far too much need and lack in our own local congregations that are not being met and we need to be looking at why. Certainly the JM and Paul Crouches of this world are not the whole cause of that lack and need, but I do believe they are part of the problem.

The idea of "fleecing the flock" is two fold or two sided in that God allows the flock to be fleeced. Why? because of their own sin...God allows this for a time and then eventually when the sin of the one fleecing is brought to fullness, God brings judgement on the one fleecing, and restores or brings to repentence the fleeced.

The Bible is full of example of this with regard to the shepherds that are given charge to feed the sheep. The Bible is also full of example in the NT of the principles that we are a body and the sin of the body and the burdens of the body are just as much an effect to the whole body as are the things of Joy or rejoicing for the body. We are not lone rangers in this walk. I dont know if that makes sense, and my time here is short, but that is my thought.

The other thing in your post that I disagree with is this:


quote:
I see the problem as with those who ignore God's Word about his desire to prosper, ignore his commandment of tithing and warnings of robbing God, and so therefore would rather point the finger and accuse others of fleecing to somehow justify their lack of faithfulness in giving financially in the first place.
I agree that GOD desires HIS people to prosper. I agree that we cannot should not must not deny this. I think that you have no way of knowing what people here are giving or are not giving and so you should proceed with those kinds of judgments carefully as well as knowing what motivates someone to speak against fleecing the flock. I disagree with the Tithe for the new testiment church being scriptural. We have discussed this else where, but do not believe that there is scriptural support for "tithing" by the NT church, but I believe with all my heart that the NT church is called to give and give with JOY and thanksgiving, and give with ... with abundance... without restraint... give as much as we can give to the furthering of God's word and the ministry to the saints and the evangelism of the lost.

Jim:
GOD bless your well drilling. As you know I am envolved with Gospel for Asia and they also are drilling wells. In India and many many many are saved through those wells. In India there are thousands of villiages where there are no wells or poor wells and people have to walk miles to carry water home for their use. In some places the Christians are banned from using the local well and have to go even further. In those villiages when the church builds a well and does not keep the lost from using it as they kept the saved from using it, it speaks volumes of the LOVE of Christ and is often the impetus to open their hearts to the Gospel. Praise GOD for the opportunities to be part of this, whether they come from the Osteens of this world or where ever else, if the Gospel is an intrical part of that well drilling ministry then praise GOD!!!

I am reminded of this scripture:

Php 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

My problem with Osteen is not his good works and not his dealings with money. You are correct he does not take a paycheck from his congregation and he gives much to his church in tithe or what ever you want to call it. He makes enough money on his book sales to live very well without taking a dime from his congregation. My concern is his lack in the area of doctrinal soundness. I believe that he teaches too much that is doctrinally unsound. I realize that you likely disagree and that is ok, but I wanted to say here that I do not either lump him in the same boat with Meyers for example. They each have different issues that I do believe the church should be aware of, but they are not the same issues.

Thunder:

I agree with you that Copeland and Hagin and Duplantis do teach some things that are true that the mainline denominations do deny. My problem with all three of them is that they teach the heresy that Jesus died spiritually and had to battle the devil in hell for the keys to the Kingdom and the work of the cross was not finished on the cross but it hell. I could write a book on the ways that this teaching is false and the serious implications of it. This belief that is prevalent throughout the WOF movement is the source of much other doctrinally unsound teaching, but at its core it denies the very diety of Christ. It should be a big red flag to the church that the Mormons praise Copeland for his teaching in this area and use it to further their apostasy and claims that they are Christian... the Christian church.

Sennaria: Welcome and God bless you for your courage to enter in this most controversial thread with your first post. There are some things in your post I dont agree with, but I am not going to flame you! ;-)

There is one thing in your post that you said that I agree with whole heartedly and I think that it is perhaps the most important thing that has been said in this whole thread so I am going to highlight that...


quote:
I believe it pretty much boils down to this:
No pastor/preacher/evangelist should ever be taken at his/her word 100% of the time, without your own time being spent in studying what they are teaching. No Pastor/preacher/evangelist is ever going to be correct 100% of the time. Why? Because we all have the same fatal flaw. We are human and we all are sinners 'cept for the savings grace and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul said it like this:

1Co 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

That is the bottom line. We must stop esteeming men above what is written... Let every man be a liar... Let God be TRUE.

We must open our Bibles. We must lay aside every thing that we think we know or have learned from men and open our Bibles.


2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
Yes. Like Gehazi, the false teachers of the Word-Of-Faith cult like Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer tell lies to even get the money from others in the first place.

Word-Of-Faith false teachers get the money by telling lies, like Gehazi. In doing that, they are fleecing the flock by coercing them with lies to give.

Hmmmmm. Now that I am thinking about it more, I believe that what Gehazi did back then is not even half as bad as what the Word-Of-Faith cult teachers are doing nowadays.

What Gehazi did, does not even come close to what these false teachers of today such as Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen are doing.:

Gehazi lied and said, "Elisha said": and from Elisha, got struck with leprosy.

Word-Of-Faith cult teachers such as Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen lie and say, "God says": and from God, will get an even greater punishment if they continue to lead others in their pernicious ways.

I like that, too.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
Prosperity theology or Prosperity doctrine- is the doctrine that prosperity and success in business is external evidence of God's favor. This favor may be preordained, or granted in return for prayer or merit-making.

Prosperity theology is commonly a part of televangelist and pentecostal churches which claims God wants Christians to be successful in every way, especially in their finances.

The doctrine is used by its proponents to become wealthy at the expense of persons who give or that the doctrine's focus on material wealth is misguided.


***

You know, the more and more I hear the way properity teachers use the "F" word(Favor), the more I begin to hate what they have done to it.

Nowhere in God's word does it say prosperity and success in business is external evidence of God's favor.

I believe that it is all a scam.

You see, God will not make people increase in worldly wealth to show His favor just by them praying or giving to WOF ministry for that reason. It just will not happen!

All that the wolves such as Joel Osteen do is feed on the lusts of others, using religion as a crutch to support their evil habits and adding to their evil gains.

If you don't increase in worldy goods, Joel's excuse is that you just don't have enough "favor". That is air-tight explanation for the decieved.

Favor,
Favor,
Favor,

You know, that word is so thrown around by the Word-Of-Faith cult that it has lost its true meaning.

Now it seems so that most people who believe the lies of the Word-Of-Faith cult would rather be "Favor minded" than "Truth minded", tuning into fake preachers that would rather scratch their itching ears than keep it real.

Scripture fulfilled:

The Heresy: 2 TIMOTHY 4: 2-4 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Example of one of the Word-Of-Faith cult fables:
(Example)"Worldly prosperity and success in business is external evidence of God's favor."

I am extremely concerned about the few sincere seekers and new babes in Christ, they are the ones who concern me the most, it would be a tragedy for them to go to hell for believing the blasphemous doctrines of demons.

People who are decieved need to wake up and flee the man pleasing doctine of the Word-Of-Faith cult.

It is so twisted how the few sincere seekers and new babes in Christ are being brainwashed into believing in the hellish doctrine of these money-loving talking wolves.

I didn't know the wolf could speak til' the day I saw the truth.

I like that post.
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trafield
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Great point, Eden.

I am sure when we are standing before the Lord to give an account of our lives, pointing the finger and blaming others for our deception is not going to fly.

Romans 14:4-13
Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
One man considers one day more sacred than another, another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord.
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
You then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgement seat. It is written:

"As surely as I live, says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tounge will confess to God.'"

So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. Therefore, let us stop passing judgement on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.


God is in control and he knows who are is, and let all who are his say, "Amen." [Prayer]

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Eden
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Hi, Itty-Bitty Girl. You said something like: "Joel Osteen and Joyce Myer were telling lies" to get people to give them money.

Eden here:

From what I have seen, MOST of the people in those meetings of Osteen and Myer and others like them, the people IN the meetings HAVE BIBLES with them.

And I think a lot of them have actually READ the Bible that they have brought with them to the meetings.

My honest question therefore is, "How can Osteen and Myer (and others like them) TELL LIES to the audience, and the audience DOESN'T NOTICE that such and such is a lie?

Most of them know their Bible fairly well, so how can that be? That's the part that puzzles me about you're saying.

Be blessed.

Eden

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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
Yes. Like Gehazi, the false teachers of the Word-Of-Faith cult like Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer tell lies to even get the money from others in the first place.

Word-Of-Faith false teachers get the money by telling lies, like Gehazi. In doing that, they are fleecing the flock by coercing them with lies to give.

Hmmmmm. Now that I am thinking about it more, I believe that what Gehazi did back then is not even half as bad as what the Word-Of-Faith cult teachers are doing nowadays.

What Gehazi did, does not even come close to what these false teachers of today such as Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen are doing.:

Gehazi lied and said, "Elisha said": and from Elisha, got struck with leprosy.

Word-Of-Faith cult teachers such as Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen lie and say, "God says": and from God, will get an even greater punishment if they continue to lead others in their pernicious ways.

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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
It is nowadays, that the false teachers of the Word-Of-Faith heretical cult such as Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer want to be like Gehazi, like he didn't get stuck with leprosy.

Yes. Like Gehazi, the false teachers of the Word-Of-Faith cult like Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer tell lies to even get the money from others in the first place.

Word-Of-Faith false teachers get the money by telling lies, like Gehazi. In doing that, they are fleecing the flock by coercing them with lies to give.

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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Favor Minded:

What do you think God meant when he said he will promote who he will and you are to pray for them.

What do you think God meant when he wrote the book of Malachi in the old testament.

What do you think God meant when he said that when you handle a little WELL, he will put you in charge of MUCH?

Instead of the usual quote yourself over and over citing "Joel and Joyce are heretics!!" stuff, how about a genuine response to what these biblical principles mean, to you...

Can you process that?

I don't think so, not that. That sounds confusing and "heresy defending" to me. My head hurts.

I am not feeling well, now.

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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:

What'chu know about that?

I know all about that!
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Favor Minded:

Please do tell Rose what sowing and reaping mean, in context, in the bible?

I am truly curious what you believe this is about in God's word.

I have seen MANY MANY seeds planted, and in turn seen these same seeds grow into huge blossoms.

Do you think the Lord is speaking metaphorically?

What do you believe God meant by saying God is not mocked?

Romans 8:1 (King James Version)
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."


++++++++++++++++++++

We as Christians, are not to walk after the flesh but after the Spirit.

++++++++++++++++++++

Galatians 6:7-8 (King James Version)
"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."

Yes. That is metaphorically speaking.


The corrupt trees(disobedient people) please the flesh and bring forth the evil fruit of iniquity(works of the flesh).

Galatians 5:19-21 (King James Version)
"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,"


The good trees(obedient people) please the Spirit and bring forth the good fruit(fruit of the Spirit).

Galatians 5:22-23 (King James Version)
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."


++++++++++++++++++++

The fruit of the Word-Of-Faith Cult movement has the corrupt fruit of iniquity.

Jesus explains the metaphor about the good and corrupt tree here:


Mt 7:15-20-BEWARE OF FALSE PROPHETS, WHICH COME TO YOU IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING, BUT INWARDLY THEY ARE RAVENING WOLVES.

YE SHALL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS. DO MEN GATHER GRAPES OF THORNS, OR FIGS OF THISTLES?

EVEN SO EVERY GOOD TREE BRINGETH FORTH GOOD FRUIT; BUT A CORRUPT TREE BRINGETH FORTH EVIL FRUIT.
A GOOD TREE CANNOT BRING FORTH EVIL FRUIT, NEITHER CAN A CORRUPT TREE BRING FORTH GOOD FRUIT.

EVERY TREE THAT BRINGETH NOT FORTH GOOD FRUIT IS HEWN DOWN, AND CAST INTO THE FIRE.

WHEREFORE BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM.

Mt 7:21-23-NOT EVERY ONE THAT SAITH UNTO ME, LORD, LORD, SHALL ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN; BUT HE THAT DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.

It is written, MANY WILL SAY TO ME (Jesus) IN THAT DAY, LORD, LORD, HAVE WE NOT PROPHESIED "IN THY NAME"? AND "IN THY NAME" HAVE CAST OUT DEVILS? AND "IN THY NAME" DONE MANY WONDERFUL WORKS? AND THEN WILL I PROFESS UNTO THEM, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY.

What'chu know about that?

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Favor Minded
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Thanks Tracy!

Yeah, the H2O project is very cool, and it is amazing just how drastic a life change it is for them.

Be blessed!!

--------------------
Matthew 24:36
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father

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Favor Minded
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Please do tell Rose what sowing and reaping mean, in context, in the bible?

I am truly curious what you believe this is about in God's word.

I have seen MANY MANY seeds planted, and in turn seen these same seeds grow into huge blossoms.

Do you think the Lord is speaking metaphorically?

What do you believe God meant by saying God is not mocked?

What do you think God meant when he said he will promote who he will and you are to pray for them.

What do you think God meant when he wrote the book of Malachi in the old testament.

What do you think God meant when he said that when you handle a little WELL, he will put you in charge of MUCH?

Instead of the usual quote yourself over and over citing "Joel and Joyce are heretics!!" stuff, how about a genuine response to what these biblical principles mean, to you...

Can you process that?

--------------------
Matthew 24:36
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father

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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:

What'chu know about that?

Ha. I know all about that!
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Favor Minded:

Secondly, she accuses Joel Osteen of begging for money -

What?

What?

What?

Are you serious, Jim? I never accused Joel Osteen of "begging" for money, Joel Osteen doesn't have to beg for money.

He just orders it out of people's hands and into his pocket, and the victimized sheep are munipulated into giving it to him, under false pretenses. FALSE PRETENSES.

All in the name of God.


This is part of the segment that I have done called the "Joel Osteen's lost tapes" series:

quote:

The senior Osteen was CLEARLY known as a Word Faith teacher, and regularly preached this aberrant prosperity "gospel." Oh and then there’s this little bit of information from Osteen himself:

"Sometimes it is hard for us to grasp that God wants us to prosper in every way...God wants us to prosper financially, to have plenty of money, to fulfill the destiny He has laid out for us. One of the most important Biblical principles that shows us how to prosper is the principle of sowing and reaping...

People tell me, "Joel, He is God. If He wants to bless me, He can." Friend, God works by laws. You can't expect to reap a harvest without first planting your seeds. If you will be faithful and do what God is asking you to do, God will do His part. Don't let the enemy deceive you into holding on to your seed--get it into the ground!

As you read this, God may be speaking to your heart. Trust that He will direct you how and where He wants you to sow your seed. If you are moved to send a seed gift in the enclosed reply envelope..." (Joel Osteen, letter from his ministry 2005 as cited at http://www.myfortress.org/JoelOsteen.html ).


Busted; anyone REMOTELY familiar with the Cult of the Word Faith Movement recognizes this blatant pitch for money, but apparently, when you smile a lie becomes less of a lie to the Evangelical camp.

Here is the topic: http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=53;t=000205

What'chu know about that?

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Thunderz7
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From personal experience,
not copy and paste,
not information from a denominational, man made doctrine site.

Without reading back through all the post on both pages,
just on memory,
of the names called in this thread,
I have been in services of three of these people.
I have also seen these three on TV as well as most others named in the thread.
I won't deal with what I've seen on TV, could have been cut, without me getting all the detail.

I will speak only of what I saw and heard live in person;
not from TV or internet hearsay.

I have been in a Jesse Duplantis service,
I have no intention of attending another.
I don't agree with all of Jesse's doctrine and teaching, though he does teach some truth that mainline churches call lies.
I really have a problem with the way offerings are taken up and preached over at his services.
I signed up for his monthly magazine,
got about three;
when they got no mail and no money from me the magazine quit coming.

I have been in Kenneth Copeland services,
don't intend on attending another;
don't agree with all his doctrine and teaching, though he does teach some truth that mainline denominationalism rejects.
Don't remember as much about the collection of offering as with Jesse, but what I do remember was about the same.

I have been in a couple of Kenneth Hagin services,
I don't agree with all his doctrine,
but he does teach much truth.
If he was still alive and teaching very close to my hometown I might consider hearing him, though not likely.
I have absolutely no problem at all with the way Kenneth Hagin took up offerings;
others should take note of it.
It wasn't long and preached over as with JD and KC.
Hagin said, "if you want to give an offering to this ministry give as you feel led by God,
but don't you dare give me your tithe,
your tithe goes to your local assembly,
if you don't have a local assembley you need to pray and find one,
but don't you dare give me your tithe."
I signed up for Hagin's Word of Faith Magazine at these services in 1990.
I have never sent them any mail or money;
the magazine came every month until Hagin's death;
I received mail that they would continue to send it if I would mail them and let them know;
I never mailed,
it quit coming a couple of months later.

So if I'm told Jesse trys to put people on a guilt trip and get money from them, thus fleecing the flock;
from personal seeing and hearing,
I would basicly agree with the statement.

Personal experience would make me feel about the same about Copeland.

But;
If I was told Kenneth Hagin fleeced the flock,
from personal experience,
being present when he received offerings;
seeing what was going on and hearing the words spoken for myself.
I say not likely at all,
that doesn't line up with what happened in Birmingham when I was in Hagin's services.

T7

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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Favor Minded:

First, she continues to accuse me of being that end time person, and in PM's has openly called me at outright liar, and said that I am lying to myself and that she knows ALLLLLL about me -
Not likely - I wonder how much she really knows about us, our missions, etc...

Dear, Jim, PM's are private. What is the purpose of putting this out in the open, what is your agenda, here? Why are you disrupting the thread with this? Are you trying to take the focus off of the Word-Of-Faith cult liars like Joel Osteen?

Your statement is all out of context, that is not what I was talking about at all. I ask you to PM me further so that we can discuss what I really meant like adults.


quote:
Originally posted by Favor Minded:

He may indeed give a watered down, no repentance teaching, but to say he is openly asking for their money, and taking a big paycheck to support a lavish lifestyle is wrong.

Jim, you just admitted that Joel Osteen is a false teacher there.

A "watered down, no repentance teaching" is indeed a false teaching.

And as for me talking about a "big paycheck", where did that come from??? When did I say this??? Are you lying on me Jim?


quote:
Originally posted by Favor Minded:

And, Lakewood gives MILLIONS to African missions like our own.

Works are not fruit, Jim. Just because they do "good works" does not mean that they are not false teachers.


quote:
Originally posted by Favor Minded:

Ministry is about seeing souls saved -

Word-Of-Faith teachings don't save people, Jim. They corrupt people, Jim.

The Pharisee: ST. MATTHEW 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

This is exactly what the Heretical Word-Of-Faith cult does too. They think that the one that they converted was “saved,” when in actuality, they are making them “twofold more the child of hell” then even themselves, turning them to blasphemous, covetous, believers of the doctrines of devils with their deceit and munipulation.

The Heresy: CORINTHIANS 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

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trafield
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Sennaria...
I am so glad and blessed that you stepped out, and I appreciate your well written response. What your post hit on is that God is in control. If we really believe this, then we can actually trust God (imagine that!) to ensure that "all things work for the good of those who love the Lord and are called according to his purpose."

Favorminded...
Keep up the good work, and may you be blessed for being a blessing to the people in Africa.

Tracy

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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Sennaria:

With that said, I believe more along the lines of Eden, if I recall correctly. That there is a balance. I do not believe it is correct or for us to call "WOF" all heretics or a teaching heretical as God uses those ministries just as much as He does any other of this I am sure. And we all as individuals will stand accountable to Him for what we do. Ministries will never be "cookie cutter" and should not be "cookie cutter" all the same. People have different needs at different times and God uses all for His glory.

God not using those evil people. Heretical wolves of the Word-Of-Faith movement are not glorifying to God, presenting a new doctrine that is not of God. The Word-Of-Faith movement is a CULT. IT IS A CULT. The Word-Of-Faith false teachers are nothing more than modern-day Pharisees. I equate them all to the diabolical cult leader Warren Jeffs.

Eden and Jim are defending the damnable heretical prosperity doctrine, they are blind. I ask that you do not believe Eden or Jim. The people siding with Eden and Jim, are apparently defending false teaching are blind.

I have come to the conclusion that Eden and Jim are blind, and only God can remove the scales from their eyes.

Eden , Jim and all the others who defend the Word-Of-Faith cult movement are sleeping and only God can wake them up.

THERE IS NO BALANCE, not the balance of the hellish prosperity doctrine. NONE AT ALL. That hellish doctrine does not give God any glory. Satan is a liar. The devil is a LIAR!

I WILL let such people like Jim and Eden be blind. I do not care, I cannot help them. It is out of my hands. I am getting irritated, because I have a problem with people like "Eden" and "Jim", because they are trying to stop others from seeing the truth.


quote:
Originally posted by Sennaria:

Are there scam artists out there? Yes there are, but it is for God to deal with, not us.

I agree with you, it is out of my hands. I don't mess with blind Joel Osteen, because I am not believing in his cultish heretical doctrines.

Naw, I don't mess with that stuff no more, I leave that alone.

I do what Jesus said:

The Pharisee: ST. LUKE 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into a ditch.

Don’t you see how serious this is, the blind Heresy too cannot lead those who are blind. They are leading people to hell.

The Heresy: 2 PETER 2:1-3 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Different name, same game.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You see, we have to stay away from the Word-Of-Faith cult, and also warn others about it, just like Jesus did.

The Pharisee: St. MATTHEW 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.


quote:
Originally posted by Sennaria:

If someone were to give to a "scam artist" preacher, they get a crown in Heaven for their action, but if the money is used wrong, the person using the money wrongly will pay the repercussions.

"If someone were to give to a 'scam artist' preacher", then giver is a victim of a scam!

The victim of a SCAM!

There is no "crown in Heaven for their action". Please understand that it is all a LIE! Properity Charades!

The Pharisee: ST. MATTHEW 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

This is exactly what the Heretical Word-Of-Faith cult does too. They think that the one that they converted was “saved,” when in actuality, they are making them “twofold more the child of hell” then even themselves turning them to blasphemous, covetous, believers of the doctrines of devils with their deceit and munipulation.

The Heresy: CORINTHIANS 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.


Different name, same game.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The victims are the sheep being forced-fed a false dangerous hellish doctrine.

The sheep are being coerced, so it is by force. No one can force anyone to "faithfully give".

Those false teachers may not hold them down and take what they give, but they uses their diabolical words to oppress them and munipulate them into giving them it. They munipulate WITH LIES, TALL TALES, MYTHS, FABLES.

They may say things like this:

"You obey God by giving your money to me, or God is not going to bless you."

"You obey God and give money to me, or you are robbing God."

These people are being victimized and lied to and munipulated.

If you cannot see this, then you are blind, and I repectfully ask you to keep all of your "heresy defending" to yourself. I ask that you don't try to stop others here from seeing the truth.


quote:
Originally posted by Sennaria:


I believe one gets into dangerous waters if they start blanket pointing fingers at a message or a group of people. Everyone is different and God uses many different approaches and types of messages to reach people.

Ay, I am trying to reach people here, I AM TRYING TO REACH PEOPLE WITH THE TRUTH. It gets frustrating when people try to discourage me by telling me that I am deceived.


quote:
Originally posted by Sennaria:

Is no good at all done by these ministries? Very very doubtful, they are not, a lot of good is done through them.

There may be good works, but even those cannot save a person. The good fruit is what matters. The fruit of the Word-Of-Faith Cult movement is the corrupt fruit of iniquity.

Mt 7:15-20-BEWARE OF FALSE PROPHETS, WHICH COME TO YOU IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING, BUT INWARDLY THEY ARE RAVENING WOLVES.

YE SHALL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS. DO MEN GATHER GRAPES OF THORNS, OR FIGS OF THISTLES?

EVEN SO EVERY GOOD TREE BRINGETH FORTH GOOD FRUIT; BUT A CORRUPT TREE BRINGETH FORTH EVIL FRUIT.
A GOOD TREE CANNOT BRING FORTH EVIL FRUIT, NEITHER CAN A CORRUPT TREE BRING FORTH GOOD FRUIT.

EVERY TREE THAT BRINGETH NOT FORTH GOOD FRUIT IS HEWN DOWN, AND CAST INTO THE FIRE.

WHEREFORE BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM.

Mt 7:21-23-NOT EVERY ONE THAT SAITH UNTO ME, LORD, LORD, SHALL ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN; BUT HE THAT DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.
It is written, MANY WILL SAY TO ME (Jesus) IN THAT DAY, LORD, LORD, HAVE WE NOT PROPHESIED "IN THY NAME"? AND "IN THY NAME" HAVE CAST OUT DEVILS? AND "IN THY NAME" DONE MANY WONDERFUL WORKS? AND THEN WILL I PROFESS UNTO THEM, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY.

Those Word-Of-Faith cult false teachers such as Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer may have the good works, but they are still coming up short without the good fruit.

They may know Jesus, but Jesus does not know them.


quote:
Originally posted by Sennaria:

I do not buy into the "people are being forced are coerced",

Of course, I thought that you wouldn't.

I wouldn't have even expected such people like you to believe the truth, you seem to be quite comfortable sleeping in lies.

I do not at all wish to disturb people like you from your slumber. Only God can wake you up, I will leave you in God's hands.

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Favor Minded
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I believe she is deceived - At least in part.

First, she continues to accuse me of being that end time person, and in PM's has openly called me at outright liar, and said that I am lying to myself and that she knows ALLLLLL about me -

Not likely - I wonder how much she really knows about us, our missions, etc...

Secondly, she accuses Joel Osteen of begging for money -

He does not ask for money, and he does not take a check from the church (The church DOES NOT pay him a salary)

To openly say these things about others is wrong, regardless of whether they agree with them or not.

He may indeed give a watered down, no repentance teaching, but to say he is openly asking for their money, and taking a big paycheck to support a lavish lifestyle is wrong.

I know -

And, Lakewood gives MILLIONS to African missions like our own.

Unlike others, like the Joyce Meyer compound, he truly does do these things with the money -

Anyway - I am not defending Joel, but rather pointing out that your Itty Bitty is a itthy bit deceived.

She openly accuses where there is no foundation, only assumptions -

And, quite frankly, I am tired of her accusing me of being someone else, and calling me a liar.

Ministry is about seeing souls saved -

Example - We are heavily involved now in the H2O project - Building wells in Africa -

These people will walk hours to get a bucket of muddy, disease infested water - Children die EVRY 8 seconds because of this...

While Itty is here, accusing me of being a liar, churches like Lakewood are providing the means to build these wells, as are we -

That is a mission and commission - Making assumptions, calling people heretics and cults with no foundation, is, as Tracy pointed out, DECEIVED....

Yes, there are flock fleecers, like Creflo, Bynum, Paula White, etc....

They get on and do the praise a thon thing to get your last $5 - They WILL answer for this - But to lump them all into one, and accuse where there is no proof, is wrong...

--------------------
Matthew 24:36
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father

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Sennaria
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I am very nervous about even posting on this as all I have read is so heartfelt, and I am so new here. I look forward to getting to know everyone very much and am very glad that I found this bulleting board.

With that said, I believe more along the lines of Eden, if I recall correctly. That there is a balance. I do not believe it is correct or for us to call "WOF" all heretics or a teaching heretical as God uses those ministries just as much as He does any other of this I am sure. And we all as individuals will stand accountable to Him for what we do. Ministries will never be "cookie cutter" and should not be "cookie cutter" all the same. People have different needs at different times and God uses all for His glory.

Are there scam artists out there? Yes there are, but it is for God to deal with, not us. If someone were to give to a "scam artist" preacher, they get a crown in Heaven for their action, but if the money is used wrong, the person using the money wrongly will pay the repercussions.

I believe one gets into dangerous waters if they start blanket pointing fingers at a message or a group of people. Everyone is different and God uses many different approaches and types of messages to reach people. Is no good at all done by these ministries? Very very doubtful, they are not, a lot of good is done through them.
I do not buy into the "people are being forced are coerced", that takes away a persons free will. We all have free will and people will buy books products because they want to and feel the need to, and if it is wrong, God will eventually intercede. But it is wrong for anyone to judge anyone else, of this I know.
In ministry there is balance, God created the world in balance, His word is in balance even, especially now that Jesus has fulfilled the Law. Every person should take what they hear preached to them and go to the Bible themselves to determine if what they are hearing is biblical/scriptural or not. I am not fond of the word scriptural as many things said are scriptural, however, they are no longer relevant as in any scriptures regarding sacrifice as Jesus is our ultimate sacrifice for our sins. We all know one scripture can be taken from the Bible and interpreted to mean many things, because it is taken out of context. One pastor of a church I attended said right from the pulpit, do not take what I say as Gospel, go to the Book and learn for yourself.

The Holy Spirit dwells within each of us, who are born-again, and it is through Him that we are given the discernment to know a false prophet or a false teaching. But to take a message from a preacher/pastor/evangelist and say that because of that particular message everything about that ministry is wrong, is not for us to determine either. I will see a show or hear a show, a christian show and then I will hear the plea for money, and sometimes that little flag goes up as to "this is just a money making scam" and sometimes it doesn't give me that impression at all. Sometimes a show will almost seem like an infomercial, to those I give no heed to, but that is my decision to make by what I feel God has told me or taught me or the Spirit is telling me.

I remember a time when it was taught in the church that all christians should be poor, we should have nothing and if you did you weren't Christian, is this biblical?

I believe it pretty much boils down to this:
No pastor/preacher/evangelist should ever be taken at his/her word 100% of the time, without your own time being spent in studying what they are teaching. No Pastor/preacher/evangelist is ever going to be correct 100% of the time. Why? Because we all have the same fatal flaw. We are human and we all are sinners 'cept for the savings grace and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. Does this mean that any souls that their ministry was used by God to save aren't saved? Of course not, and that is what is most important. There is not a single pastor/preacher/evangelist anywhere that I would nor should nor should anyone believe 100% of the time at face value, but that doesn't mean that God isn't using Him to reach people, it means that it also comes down to the individual to rely on their relationship with the Lord to be able to discern right and proper teaching. This is an individual responsibility, to be sure that what we hear is right and proper and Biblical.

I come from a very very strict legalistic background that flowed over into my spiritual life. I still battle the image that God is up there just waiting for me to screw up and point His finger at me and punish me for it. Some of these very same people that are being attacked here are the same people that helped me realize that that is not the God that is in Heaven. But I also do NOT buy into the give me 1000 dollars and you'll make 100,000 that some of them can say. Thus the balance comes in and overall, I just believe that one should take whatever one hears and learns and go to God for substantiation, He is our ultimate Teacher after all.

Don't shoot the whole ministry because of one message.

Well I did it, I stepped out, don't slam me too badly [cool_shades]

--------------------
Sennaria

quote:
Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and all these things shall be added unto you.


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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Hi, Itty-Bitty Girl. You said,

This person {Trafield} appears to be the only hypocrite here, no one else.

Eden here:

Does that mean, "I'm good to go"?

Be blessed.

Eden

I cannot process this, Eden.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Hi, Itty-Bitty Girl. The part I find interesting is that all these Word-of-Faith false prophets are all so good at co-ercing and have so many ploys.

Do you think that all of these Word-of-Faith teachers started out okay, like you and me, and as they acquired Bible knowledge, the Word-of-Faith teachers came to a point where they said to themselves:

Aha! If I tell them that "if they don't give to me then they are robbing God" and so I will take their money?"

Let's look at this for a moment. In general terms, the Word-of-Faith movement begins sort of with Kenneth Hagin, out of whom came Kenneth Copeland, out of whom came Jesse Duplantis and Creflo Dollar and Joyce Myer, more or less.

We have to go back in Christianity to the 1970s or 1980s or so when Kenneth Hagin first began to think about these things, and after him the Copelands and so on.

It was like a period in Christian history. This cannot suddenly be wiped out as if it never should have happened, could it?

The Word-of-Faith teacher Kenneth Hagin started out okay in Bible knowledge, like you and me, and as he acquired more Bible knowledge, then came the day that this first Word-of-Faith teacher said to himself:

Aha! If I tell them that "if they don't give me their money that they are robbing God" and so I will take all their money?"

Do you think that Kenneth Hagin came to that conclusion one day "to rob them by telling them they are robbing God" and implemented it with a great relish and devilish intent?

And do you think that Kenneth Hagin was able to pass this "ploy to get so much money out of these gullible believers" on to the Copelands successfully, and they to Creflo Dollar and Joyce Myer, to name a few of them?

Do you think that each one of them made a conscious decision within themselves and said, "yes, I will do that too; I will fleece them by telling them that unless they give to me, they are robbing God" and I too will live a life of luxury?

It is hard for me to believe that so much conniving and evil-intent coordination can have taken place among bornagain Christians who presumably all started out in the right way, just like you and me.

But thank God, you and me are still ok, and that means a lot to me. But we should exhort them to stop using those hateful ploys that cause the flock to give them so much money.

Be blessed, IBG.

Eden

That needs to be broken down, or else I will not be able to answer.

I cannot process this, Eden.

It is too confusing. To me, it appears to be nothing more than subtle confusing wordplay that defends the heretical cult of the Word-Of-Faith movement.

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Eden
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Hi, Itty-Bitty Girl. The part I find interesting is that all these Word-of-Faith false prophets are all so good at co-ercing and have so many ploys.

Do you think that all of these Word-of-Faith teachers started out okay, like you and me, and as they acquired Bible knowledge, the Word-of-Faith teachers came to a point where they said to themselves:

Aha! If I tell them that "if they don't give to me then they are robbing God" and so I will take their money?"

Let's look at this for a moment. In general terms, the Word-of-Faith movement begins sort of with Kenneth Hagin, out of whom came Kenneth Copeland, out of whom came Jesse Duplantis and Creflo Dollar and Joyce Myer, more or less.

We have to go back in Christianity to the 1970s or 1980s or so when Kenneth Hagin first began to think about these things, and after him the Copelands and so on.

It was like a period in Christian history. This cannot suddenly be wiped out as if it never should have happened, could it?

The Word-of-Faith teacher Kenneth Hagin started out okay in Bible knowledge, like you and me, and as he acquired more Bible knowledge, then came the day that this first Word-of-Faith teacher said to himself:

Aha! If I tell them that "if they don't give me their money that they are robbing God" and so I will take all their money?"

Do you think that Kenneth Hagin came to that conclusion one day "to rob them by telling them they are robbing God" and implemented it with a great relish and devilish intent?

And do you think that Kenneth Hagin was able to pass this "ploy to get so much money out of these gullible believers" on to the Copelands successfully, and they to Creflo Dollar and Joyce Myer, to name a few of them?

Do you think that each one of them made a conscious decision within themselves and said, "yes, I will do that too; I will fleece them by telling them that unless they give to me, they are robbing God" and I too will live a life of luxury?

It is hard for me to believe that so much conniving and evil-intent coordination can have taken place among bornagain Christians who presumably all started out in the right way, just like you and me.

But thank God, you and me are still ok, and that means a lot to me. But we should exhort them to stop using those hateful ploys that cause the flock to give them so much money.

Be blessed, IBG.

Eden

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Eden
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Hi, Itty-Bitty Girl. You said,

This person {Trafield} appears to be the only hypocrite here, no one else.

Eden here:

Does that mean, "I'm good to go"?

Be blessed.

Eden

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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
I am quite certain that there are people who are using the tithes and offerings from believers for selfish gain...But I really don't know or care who you think is "fleecing the flock." This has always been my point. The person "fleecing" is accountable to God alone, as is the person who is faithfully giving, regardless of what is done with the money.

What?

What?

What?

Is this person really serious? I understand the idea of "FLEECING THE FLOCK", I understand that no one is "faithfully giving". The sheep are being coerced, so it is by force. No one can force anyone to "faithfully give". Those false teachers may not hold them down and take what they give, but they uses their diabolical words to oppress them and munipulate them into giving them it. They munipulate WITH LIES, TALL TALES, MYTHS, FABLES.

They may say things like this:

"You obey God by giving your money to me, or God is not going to bless you."

"You obey God and give money to me, or you are robbing God."

Word-Of-Faith teachers such as Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen are on the same level as cult leader Warren Jeffs (FLDS Church "false prophet")

Word-Of-Faith teachers do crooked and evil things all in the name of their God as other cult leaders do, but the Word-Of-Faith movement is more subtle though.


Word-Of-Faith teachers might even use some sort of a ploy to coerce those poor sheep into giving it to her, like, "If you stay in your faith, you are going to get paid," Meyer told an audience in Detroit in September. "I’m living now in my reward."


quote:
Originally posted by trafield:

But I find it rather hypocritical that I am told to provide concrete proof of Rose's wrong motives, when many here constantly accuse others of all kinds of wrong doings without any evidence. This is being a slanderer and will be judged by God.

This person again points their crusty finger, reeking of the stench of foul self-righteousness, at "many here". This person is the only one judging others hypocritcally, this person is the only one judging "many here" of accusing others of all kinds of wrong doings without any evidence. This person appears to be the only hypocrite here, no one else.


This is the evidence:

This person is hypocritically judging "many here".

This person tells "many here" that they are accusing others of "all kinds of wrong doings without any evidence."

This person goes on to say, "This is being a slanderer and will be judged by God."

All the while, when this person is told to "provide concrete proof of Rose's wrong motives",
this person does not provide the "concrete proof ".

So by doing that, this hypocritical person, constantly accuses others of "all kinds of wrong doings without any evidence. This is being a slanderer and will be judged by God."

By this person's own admission, this person is a being a "slanderer and will be judged by God."

So I stand by my comments and declare that this person's own words of condemnation, have condemned this person.

This person is being a slanderer and will be judged by God.


Matthew 12:37 (King James Version)
"For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."


*Judging hypocritically

ST. MATTHEW 7:1-5 "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thy say to thy brother, Let me pull the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and thou shall see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye."


Romans 2:1-3 "Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doeth the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?"


The moral to this is: If you want to judge anyone, then you had better have it allllllllll together.


quote:
Originally posted by trafield:

As far as Rose goes, her own accusation of John MacArthur and others without any firsthand knowledge of wrongdoings shows her motives are contrary to God's Word. So I stand by my comments and declare that her own words of condemnation accuse herself.

What is very interesting about this person's post, is that I have said nothing at all about John MacArthur.

I completely ignored this person's post about John MacArthur.

Nowhere do I ever mention John MacArthur.

This person is constantly accusing me of all kinds of wrong doings without evidence.

By this person's own judgement, they are being a slanderer and will be judged by God.


quote:
Originally posted by trafield:

I see the problem as with those who ignore God's Word about his desire to prosper, ignore his commandment of tithing and warnings of robbing God, and so therefore would rather point the finger and accuse others of fleecing to somehow justify their lack of faithfulness in giving financially in the first place. And to attempt to persuade others of this folly by accusing others of their wrong-doing, justified or unjustifed, is from the pit of Hell.

I hope I am now crystal clear.

Oh, this person is clear as transparent glass, clear enough to see right through their self-righteous, heresy defending deceit.
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trafield
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quote:
Tracy, do you feel that there is anyone out there fleecing the flock today? I know that you agree with David that GOD desires us to prosper and I also agree with this; but truthfully, I think (and I am ready for you to correct my error) but I at this point I think that the disagreement occurs because there are folks that David, and I, and even MacArthur might agree are fleecing the flock today that you would disagree with us about that or them.

I am quite certain that there are people who are using the tithes and offerings from believers for selfish gain...But I really don't know or care who you think is "fleecing the flock." This has always been my point. The person "fleecing" is accountable to God alone, as is the person who is faithfully giving, regardless of what is done with the money. But I find it rather hypocritical that I am told to provide concrete proof of Rose's wrong motives, when many here constantly accuse others of all kinds of wrong doings without any evidence. This is being a slanderer and will be judged by God. As far as Rose goes, her own accusation of John MacArthur and others without any firsthand knowledge of wrongdoings shows her motives are contrary to God's Word. So I stand by my comments and declare that her own words of condemnation accuse herself.

I see the problem as with those who ignore God's Word about his desire to prosper, ignore his commandment of tithing and warnings of robbing God, and so therefore would rather point the finger and accuse others of fleecing to somehow justify their lack of faithfulness in giving financially in the first place. And to attempt to persuade others of this folly by accusing others of their wrong-doing, justified or unjustifed, is from the pit of Hell.

I hope I am now crystal clear.

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helpforhomeschoolers
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Tracy, do you feel that there is anyone out there fleecing the flock today? I know that you agree with David that GOD desires us to prosper and I also agree with this; but truthfully, I think (and I am ready for you to correct my error) but I at this point I think that the disagreement occurs because there are folks that David, and I, and even MacArthur might agree are fleecing the flock today that you would disagree with us about that or them.

Ps: Post that statement that David posted and I will amen you. I agree with the statement no matter who says it;

I do try not to be a respector of persons, when I diagree it is because of the statement, not who says it.

A good example is what you have stated here about Rose:

You said:

quote:
I think it is you who are deceived and trying to deceive
That is a really strong accusation. At this point I could not amen this statement if it came from my dearest closest friend. I dont always like Rose's manner and I dont like the quoting of onesself, I think it makes one look foolish and I have expressed this to Rose privately, but that in no way makes me to believe that she is deceived abotu something and I certaily dont believe she is trying to deceive anyone. I dont know what you think Rose is deceived about or is trying to deceive others about but I think that you should give some concrete evidence if you are going to make such accusations publically.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
quote:
PROSPERITY PREACHERS ARE SUCH CON ARTISTS.

THERE THEY GO, DECIEVING THE HEARTS OF PEOPLE.

I think it is you who are deceived and trying to deceive in your own pride, young one.
Not John MacArthur.
And I think you know it...which is why you flood your topics with responses to your own questions...so you can attempt to silence the truth with your many finger-pointing posts of deception.

What is very interesting about this person's post, is that I have said nothing at all about John MacArthur.

I completely ignored this person's post about John MacArthur.

Nowhere in the post that this person has quoted of me, do I ever mention John MacArthur.

I say, "PROSPERITY PREACHERS ARE SUCH CON ARTISTS.

THERE THEY GO, DECIEVING THE HEARTS OF PEOPLE."

I believe that this person's eagerness to be rude has them jumping to conclusions, going so far as putting words where there are none.

I also believe that this person goes so far as to say that they think I "know" that I am "trying to decieve". That certianly sounds like judging to me. I believe that this person even makes the self-righteous judgement that I "attempt to silence the truth", all the while this person attempts to silence me from telling the truth about the hellish damnable prosperity doctrine with his false judgements. How twisted is that?


I believe such people cannot even see clear enough what to rebuke
, due to the beam lodged in their own eye.

Can sombody ask this person what "the truth" is? What is this "truth" that I am attempting to "silence"?


quote:
Originally posted by trafield:

You may want to keep in mind that in regards to God's judgement...He does not care how young you are... you are old enough to attack others, old enough to ignore Truth and deceive, and certainly old enough to be judged for your actions.

And I pray you take this rebuke to heart.

I have an idea of this person's so-called "truth". I believe that this person's idea of "truth" defends all of the money-hungry, coveting, Word-Of-Faith ravening wolves who devour the sheep, wolves such as Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer.

I believe that this person's "truth" defends and justifies all of those who present the hellish prosperity doctrine, which "FLEECES THE FLOCK" , and that is not all that people such as Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer do, they take it further by opressing folks, stripping folks naked and eating them up, and sucking their bones dry, it's inhumane. It's cruel and vile and sick.

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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by David:
Maybe this story from the bible will help you see we are not to fleece the flock:

2 Kings 5:14-27 (TLB)

14So Naaman went down to the Jordan River and dipped himself seven times, as the prophet had told him to. And his flesh became as healthy as a little child’s, and he was healed! 15Then he and his entire party went back to find the prophet; they stood humbly before him and Naaman said, “I know at last that there is no God in all the world except in Israel; now please accept my gifts.”
16But Elisha replied, “I swear by Jehovah my God that I will not accept them.”
Naaman urged him to take them, but he absolutely refused. 17“Well,” Naaman said, “all right. But please give me two muleloads of earth to take back with me, for from now on I will never again offer any burnt offerings or sacrifices to any other god except the Lord.£ 18However, may the Lord pardon me this one thing—when my master the king goes into the temple of the god Rimmon to worship there and leans on my arm, may the Lord pardon me when I bow too.”
19“All right,” Elisha said. So Naaman started home again.
20But Gehazi, Elisha’s servant, said to himself, “My master shouldn’t have let this fellow get away without taking his gifts. I will chase after him and get something from him.”
21So Gehazi caught up with him. When Naaman saw him coming, he jumped down from his chariot and ran to meet him.
“Is everything all right?” he asked.
22“Yes,” he said, “but my master has sent me to tell you that two young prophets from the hills of Ephraim have just arrived, and he would like $2,000 in silver and two suits to give to them.”
23“Take $4,000,” Naaman insisted. He gave him two expensive robes, tied up the money in two bags, and gave them to two of his servants to carry back with Gehazi. 24But when they arrived at the hill where Elisha lived,£ Gehazi took the bags from the servants and sent the men back. Then he hid the money in his house.
25When he went in to his master, Elisha asked him, “Where have you been, Gehazi?”
“I haven’t been anywhere,” he replied.
26But Elisha asked him, “Don’t you realize that I was there in thought when Naaman stepped down from his chariot to meet you? Is this the time to receive money and clothing and olive farms and vineyards and sheep and oxen and servants? 27Because you have done this, Naaman’s leprosy shall be upon you and upon your children and your children’s children forever.”
And Gehazi walked from the room a leper, his skin as white as snow.

Very, very, good, DAVID! [thumbsup2] I think I remember that story, two years ago, I read that and laughed.


It is nowadays, that the false teachers of the Word-Of-Faith heretical cult such as Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer want to be like Gehazi, like he didn't get stuck with leprosy.

Ask yourself: how can one take money from people who give to the Lord's work and reward themselves with the luxuries of this world?

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trafield
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Who is saying or has said we are to fleece the flock?
I think we are now all saying the same thing...yet for some reason the spirit of divisiveness is so strong in some here that they hate to admit that we actually agree on some things and so come across as if they are still disagreeing.

Yet why an Amen to David's post...when myself and John MacArthur have said the same thing? Never mind...I already answered it above. [cool_shades]

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KnowHim
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Maybe this story from the bible will help you see we are not to fleece the flock:

2 Kings 5:14-27 (TLB)

14So Naaman went down to the Jordan River and dipped himself seven times, as the prophet had told him to. And his flesh became as healthy as a little child’s, and he was healed! 15Then he and his entire party went back to find the prophet; they stood humbly before him and Naaman said, “I know at last that there is no God in all the world except in Israel; now please accept my gifts.”
16But Elisha replied, “I swear by Jehovah my God that I will not accept them.”
Naaman urged him to take them, but he absolutely refused. 17“Well,” Naaman said, “all right. But please give me two muleloads of earth to take back with me, for from now on I will never again offer any burnt offerings or sacrifices to any other god except the Lord.£ 18However, may the Lord pardon me this one thing—when my master the king goes into the temple of the god Rimmon to worship there and leans on my arm, may the Lord pardon me when I bow too.”
19“All right,” Elisha said. So Naaman started home again.
20But Gehazi, Elisha’s servant, said to himself, “My master shouldn’t have let this fellow get away without taking his gifts. I will chase after him and get something from him.”
21So Gehazi caught up with him. When Naaman saw him coming, he jumped down from his chariot and ran to meet him.
“Is everything all right?” he asked.
22“Yes,” he said, “but my master has sent me to tell you that two young prophets from the hills of Ephraim have just arrived, and he would like $2,000 in silver and two suits to give to them.”
23“Take $4,000,” Naaman insisted. He gave him two expensive robes, tied up the money in two bags, and gave them to two of his servants to carry back with Gehazi. 24But when they arrived at the hill where Elisha lived,£ Gehazi took the bags from the servants and sent the men back. Then he hid the money in his house.
25When he went in to his master, Elisha asked him, “Where have you been, Gehazi?”
“I haven’t been anywhere,” he replied.
26But Elisha asked him, “Don’t you realize that I was there in thought when Naaman stepped down from his chariot to meet you? Is this the time to receive money and clothing and olive farms and vineyards and sheep and oxen and servants? 27Because you have done this, Naaman’s leprosy shall be upon you and upon your children and your children’s children forever.”
And Gehazi walked from the room a leper, his skin as white as snow.

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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by David:
I have no doubt that God does want us to prosper. But when we do we are to help others. Not horde it for ourselves. If your motive for prospering is so you will be blessed and you are not going to bless others then your motive is wrong.

Amen and amen and amen to that!
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I have no doubt that God does want us to prosper. But when we do we are to help others. Not horde it for ourselves. If your motive for prospering is so you will be blessed and you are not going to bless others then your motive is wrong.

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trafield
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quote:
PROSPERITY PREACHERS ARE SUCH CON ARTISTS.

THERE THEY GO, DECIEVING THE HEARTS OF PEOPLE.

I think it is you who are deceived and trying to deceive in your own pride, young one.
Not John MacArthur.
And I think you know it...which is why you flood your topics with responses to your own questions...so you can attempt to silence the truth with your many finger-pointing posts of deception.

You may want to keep in mind that in regards to God's judgement...He does not care how young you are... you are old enough to attack others, old enough to ignore Truth and deceive, and certainly old enough to be judged for your actions.

And I pray you take this rebuke to heart. [Prayer]

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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:

Hi, Itty-Bitty Girl. You said:

Run, sheep, run or the wolf'll eeeeee at you!

Eden here:

What did Jesus say?

This is what Jesus said:

Matthew 7:15-20 (King James Version)

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

That is the reason why I am warning the sheep and saying, "BEWARE".

That is why I ring the alarm against the false teachers of the heretic, "Word-Of-Faith" cult movement. Their fruit is pure evil.

quote:
Originally posted by Eden:

Luke 10
2Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.

3Go your ways: look, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.

Lambs are young sheep. He sent us among wolveeeeeees, Itty-Bitty Girl, not to:

"Run, sheep, run or the wolf'll eeeeee at you!"

Jesus said He sent us as lambs {sheep} among wolves. What ya doin' runnin' from the wolves?

IIIIIIIIIIII hate this. I am trying to keep my cool. Currently suffering from characteristics of a serious disorder, and it is hard for me not to be rude out of frustration and impulse.

I still try, God knows I try.

Lovely Eden, dear. A lamb is not a full grown sheep, a lamb is just a baby sheep.


Luke 10:1-4 (King James Version)

"After these things the LORD appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way. "

That is an unrelated metaphor to the passage that I was referring to. That is referring instead to the people that Jesus sent out to preach to the lost, they were the lambs sent among the wolves, which were the people set to hear the gospel.

That has nothing to do with the sheep being warned to run from the heretical wolves of the Word-Of-Faith movement's foolish prosperity doctrine.

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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:

My question is, "If the people who FLOCK to hear JM speak WILLINGLY GIVE THEIR FLEECE, how are they BEING fleeced? I was just wondering...

Well, Eden, here is an idea: The sheep are being coerced into doing something that they do not want to do, so it is by force. Joyce may not hold them down and take it, but she uses her diabolical words to oppress them and munipulate them into giving them it.

Joyce Meyer might even use some sort of a ploy to coerce those poor sheep into giving it to her, like, "If you stay in your faith, you are going to get paid," Meyer told an audience in Detroit in September. "I’m living now in my reward."

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Eden
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Hi, Itty-Bitty Girl. You said:

Run, sheep, run or the wolf'll eeeeee at you!

Eden here:

What did Jesus say?

Luke 10
2Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.

3Go your ways: look, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.

Lambs are young sheep. He sent us among wolveeeeeees, Itty-Bitty Girl, not to:

"Run, sheep, run or the wolf'll eeeeee at you!"

Jesus said He sent us as lambs {sheep} among wolves. What ya doin' runnin' from the wolves?

And why are the sheep among the wolves? To help save the wolves. So we can't run from the wolves when our assignment among the wolves is to SAVE THE WOLVES.

Be blessed.

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Itty Bitty Girl, I do want to thank you for opening my eyes to this subject as the extravagance that you describe Joyce Myer (JM) engages in (I'm assuming it is still extravagant?), and that spending mega-wealth on oneself if one is a bornagain Christian to the tune of $17,000 for a faucet (or whatever).

I wanted to ask you, though, about this. I think you said that someone like JM is FLEECING THE FLOCK.

Don't these people actually FLOCK to hear HER? I was just wondering, increase my understanding, don't these people WILLINGLY PAY for whatever tapes, donations to the assembly hall rent, and books that JM sells.

I was wondering, IN WHAT WAY do you consider that FLEECING THE FLOCK? When a shepherd goes out to FLEECE THE FLOCK, the shepherd has to GRAB the sheep and FLEECE THE SHEEP AGAINST ITS WILL.

My question is, "If the people who FLOCK to hear JM speak WILLINGLY GIVE HER THEIR FLEECE, how are they BEING fleeced? I was just wondering...

Be blessed everyone.

Eden
There is only one kingdom. Come and find a place inside.

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Itty-Bitty Girl
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Run, sheep, run or the wolf'll eeeeeeat you!
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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This is how I believe someone in the Word-Of-Faith prosperity teacher's church is feeling right now:

"I have stayed in the faith, where is my reward? Where is my favor?

Where is my multi million-dollar home?

Where are my luxury cars?

Where is my prosperity blessing? I am not getting paid.

The more I pay tithes to your church, the more seeds I sow; the more I get in debt.

Where is the money at?

Where is the money at? [Frown]

Where is the money at?...  -

Do I need more faith? More favor?

I keep giving all and getting nothing, so I guess, by the Word-Of-Faith prosperity teacher's standards, I am failure as a Christian.

I smile in church to hold back the tears [Smile] , I appear fine to others [Cool] , but on the inside, I am depressed and withering away  - ."

***

That poor soul will never get those worldly things that he desires!

It is a scam!

While the dollars keep rolling in and in and into the Word-Of-Faith prosperity teacher's pocket, some poor soul believes the hellish doctrine that they are preaching and this poor soul believes that someday, he too will have a Rolls Royce.

Does the Word-Of-Faith cult have any shame? It is so sad how people give, and give, and give, and tithe, and tithe, and tithe, sewing seed after seed, after seed, only to get something in return!

I HATE THE VICIOUS CYCLE OF GREED!


***

I believe I have told the story of a few victims and oppressed people caught up in the Word-Of-Faith cult heretical movement, they are the sincere seekers and new babes in Christ, who believe they have no hope. I know from experience, I used to be one of them.

Run, sheep!!!

I warn you all to ruuuuuuun!

Flee the Word-Of-Faith prosperity doctrine!

There are talking blood-thirsty cutthroat wolves in the pulpit!

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Itty-Bitty Girl
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PROSPERITY PREACHERS ARE SUCH CON ARTISTS.

THERE THEY GO, DECIEVING THE HEARTS OF PEOPLE.


These people must be disapproved of... I ask all of you to believe that what I am saying is true. Break free and follow God, see the light.

Please do not allow people such as Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer and other members of the Word-Of-Faith cult to scam you out of your cash.

It is just a smoke screen, my brothers and sisters. There's a bigger picture.


As mentioned months ago:

"Many preachers are living VERY high on the hog because poor souls have given their last dollar in the hopes of grasping the brass ring.

This is sad indeed.

These preachers live in multi-million dollar homes in gated communities, posh golf course communities, with lavish lifestyles, with their wives shopping mostly in Dior and Chanel boutiques, wearing mostly designer gold/diamond watches and owning Learjets and yachts-- While the dollars keep rolling in and in and in, some poor soul believes the hellish doctrine that these preachers are preaching and this poor soul believes that someday, he too will have a Rolls Royce.

The only people getting a return from this kind of preaching are the preachers themselves and their families.
"

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trafield
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I just heard a great sermon on this topic today from John MacArthur. Many here, [Roll Eyes] , would do well to listen to the wisdom of this sermon.

http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/grace_to_you/

Treasures in Heaven, Part 1
Monday, September 25, 2006 Henry Ford said, "Money is like an arm or a leg - use it or lose it." Question is, though . . . how do you use money the right way . . . and how do you keep it from controlling you? Series: Mastering Your Money

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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
I was just getting the vibe that some were being a little hard on having wealth.

And what, BrianGrass, is "being a little hard on having wealth"? You see, I am a little confused on this. I am not hard on having wealth and using it for God's purpose, and not for the lavishing of self as the world does.


quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
I'm just trying to say we really shouldn't be to quick to judge others on how much money they have or how the spend it, but to be carefull how we spend our money.

Oh, no, BrianGrass, I am not quick to judge people on how much money they have... But I do let the word of God to be the judge, I read what it says, and I just repeat what the word of God tells me.

quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
We can judge what others are saying in Gods name, but we cannot judge what is in anothers heart, thats for them and God to sort out. Just because someone owns a big house or a fancy car does not mean that there motives are sinful. We don't know their heart, only God does.

I may have you all wrong but I believe that you are saying that I am judging people's hearts, and I do no such things, all that I do is read the word of God and believe the word of God, and speak the truth here about the word of God. I am not judging any person. I judge by God's word, this would make it God's judgement, not mine.

God says these things, not me. God is doing the judging here, with His word.

Matthew 6:19-21: "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

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BrianGrass1234
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quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
You could very well have a huge house and not neccessarly need, but not be showing off or being greed. You could also have a expensive cars and not showing off also. My point was you need to examine how your using what God has given you and your motives on how you spend. Cause you could be an archetect or a contracter and like building your own big house and its like a hobby. I don't see anything wrong with that at face value. The same goes with cars and other things. Somethings people happen to really, innocently, enjoy doing and they happen to be expensive.

Hey BrianGrass, have you ever asked yourself this?: If you want to be like the rich and have numerous multi-million dollar homes and drive fancy $200,000 cars, is that God's will for your life? To own symbols of status in this world?

When we have wealth, it is for this purpose...not the lavishing of self:

Deuteronomy 8:18 "But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day."

Who can possess worldly earthly treasures with spiritual heavenly motives?

Matthew 6:19-21: "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

Trust me, I'm not endorsing or approving of extravagent spending. I was just getting the vibe that some were being a little hard on having wealth. I'm just trying to say we really shouldn't be to quick to judge others on how much money they have or how the spend it, but to be carefull how we spend our money. And I also threw in how we do need to speak out against false teachings in Gods name.

I personally barely make it. Most months its gotta be only because God intervense that me and my family get to eat and have power. Is cause I sin sometimes, maybe, I don't know, but I'm not going to tell others that if they struggle its because they are sinners. I do try, but I fail way to much. It breaks my heart that my family may suffer because of my sin. And that may be how it is. But I try to not be stingy. I try to stay away from buying stuff I really don't need or really aren't that important. I also try to give when I see a need I can meet. My wife is really good at that. We actually have put ourselves in a lot of sticky situations by giving when we really didn't have the money. God didn't give us rewards for those times, but we did always come out OK. Gods faithful. I don't want to be rich. I want to be just like the proverb "give me neither poverty or riches" riches as christians is a lot of responsibility. I screw up enough with the little I have, I don't want to screw up with a lot.

I also don't look to anyone else who has a lot, cause there are a lot in my church who do, and expect them to give to me. I also don't judge them because they live in a fancy house and drive fancy cars. They need to judge themselves on how they spend their money. Its really none of my business. But if they are trying to tell people who aren't wealthy, or that are struggling, that it is because of sin in there lives. We do need to speak out against those false truths, cause thats not the case. And if they a saying that those who are wealthy should be showing off their wealth and hording it to in some way show God's glory. Then we should be speaking against those lies as well.

We can judge what others are saying in Gods name, but we cannot judge what is in anothers heart, thats for them and God to sort out. Just because someone owns a big house or a fancy car does not mean that there motives are sinful. We don't know their heart, only God does.

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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
You could very well have a huge house and not neccessarly need, but not be showing off or being greed. You could also have a expensive cars and not showing off also. My point was you need to examine how your using what God has given you and your motives on how you spend. Cause you could be an archetect or a contracter and like building your own big house and its like a hobby. I don't see anything wrong with that at face value. The same goes with cars and other things. Somethings people happen to really, innocently, enjoy doing and they happen to be expensive.

Hey BrianGrass, have you ever asked yourself this?: If you want to be like the rich and have numerous multi-million dollar homes and drive fancy $200,000 cars, is that God's will for your life? To own symbols of status in this world?

When we have wealth, it is for this purpose...not the lavishing of self:

Deuteronomy 8:18 "But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day."

Who can possess worldly earthly treasures with spiritual heavenly motives?

Matthew 6:19-21: "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

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BrianGrass1234
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quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
God also calls to be humble, all over the place in the bible. How humble are you being if you live in a 4,000 square foot house and a $60,000 dollar car. Unless you really have need for all that space, your just showing off. Now we can't really judge others for how they spend the money God has allowed them to aquire, but you need to judge yourself what your doing with what God has given you it.

That statement isn't totally fair. You could very well have a huge house and not neccessarly need, but not be showing off or being greed. You could also have a expensive cars and not showing off also. My point was you need to examine how your using what God has given you and your motives on how you spend. Cause you could be an archetect or a contracter and like building your own big house and its like a hobby. I don't see anything wrong with that at face value. The same goes with cars and other things. Somethings people happen to really, innocently, enjoy doing and they happen to be expensive. Like me I like music. Instruments and recording gear get really expensive, but I don't see any thing wrong with buying them as long as my motives are OK. The same thing goes with cars. I'm really a car guy. I don't like expensive cars, but still, I see me probably having more cars than I need in my future if it works out where I have the means to do so, but my motives have been OK. I've also given cars away for free or next to nothing. So I guess each person has to really examine themselves.

It also goes for poor people to. I mean should you really go into debt for that big screen TV. We give the rich person a hard time for spending a couple million on a house, yet that is an asset that goes up in value, yet the poor will go into debt for a TV or couch which is worth half as much as soon as you load it in your truck. It says plenty in the Bible about being in debt also.

So I really think that each person has to sort out for themselves and really examine how they are using the resources that God has given or allowed them to have, but not to be judging how others are using what God has given them.

But we do need to speak out and judge what others are professing in Gods name to find and then speak the truth when they are teaching in error so others aren't led astray.

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BrianGrass1234
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God does not reward the faithful with riches. Look at Job. Everything was taken from him yet he stayed true to God. These false teachers would be telling him there must be secrete sins in his life and thats why all these bad thing were happening to him. That was not the case though, and in the end God was faithful to Job. The flip side it true as well, God does not make those who are sinful poor. Just look at the TV and see those who are filthy rich, yet live out and brag about there sinful lives.

A christians money and things should be seen as God's stuff anyway. So if that is the truth then you should never be proud of your wealth, because it is not yours, also if you are poor at the time and your trying to be diligent with what you do have, than you shouldn't be ashamed. The same goes, you should not be looking up to those who happen to have a lot of money and stuff, and you shouldn't be looking down to those who have little.

If you have a lot, you probably should be looking for those who could use the extra you don't need, although if you have little, you shouldn't be looking to those who have a lot to give some to you.

God also calls to be humble, all over the place in the bible. How humble are you being if you live in a 4,000 square foot house and a $60,000 dollar car. Unless you really have need for all that space, your just showing off. Now we can't really judge others for how they spend the money God has allowed them to aquire, but you need to judge yourself what your doing with what God has given you it.

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Itty-Bitty Girl
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Proverbs 28:20
A faithful man shall abound with blessings: but he who maketh haste to be rich shall not be innocent.

This explains why the "Get Rich Or Die Trying" cutthroat prosperity doctrine is foolishness.

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Eden
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Proverbs 28:20
A faithful man shall abound with blessings: but he who makes haste to be rich shall not be innocent.

Proverbs 30:7-9
7 Two things have I required of thee (LORD); deny them me not before I die.

8 Remove far from me vanity and lies; give me neithe poverty nor riches; (just) feed me with the food convenient for me.

9 Lest I be full, and deny thee and say, Who is the LORD? Or lest I be poor and steal, and take the name of God in vain.

Be blessed.

Eden

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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
LISTEN CAREFULLY: the only people who ever get those million dollar homes and fancy cars by viewers giving are the preachers preaching this filthy lucre nonsense and receiving the offerings from Christians who "give to get." It's all about greed.

No more will I ever allow Word-Of-Faith prosperity preachers like Joel Osteen to chop the bacon off my fat back!

Proverbs 22:16
"He who oppresses the poor to increase his riches, And he who gives to the rich, will surely come to poverty."

The Word-Of-Faith "prosperity doctrine" is idiocy. That foolishness is not from the Lord, not of God.

I can take a guess as to just where it IS actually coming from.

Here's a little hint, there is only one other source.

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