|
Author
|
Topic: Be Very Careful II
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
I think that is the point! Joyce, we are to trust GOD alone and HIS word ALONE is truth.
Paul I think demonstrated for us that it does not matter who you are when you speak to teach others contrary to the word of God, you are to be rebuked for it. Think about Peter! Peter was the one to whom God said I will give to you that keys to the Kingdom; Jesus prayed personally for Peter that his faith not fail him when he denied the LORD 3 times before the **** crowed. Still, when Paul was right and he knew it and Peter was wrong and he knew it, he rebuked Peter. THIS is AGAPE LOVE! But what is even more important is how did Peter respond? Peter responded to the Spirit of Truth and repented of his error! That is what a spirit led person does when the Spirit brings conviction.
Paul said this and it to me is comforting:
1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
God has allowed for divisions - Divisions must come MUST is that word up there - God has allowed for this so that those of whom GOD approves are manifest.
Peter was approved and God's approval of him was manifest in his responding to the Spirit of truth as spoken by Paul rather than his opposing it.
2 Corinthians 10:18 For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.
Why are the tares allowed to grow with the wheat? Because in growing the wheat manifests itself as wheat and the tares are clearly seen as tares.
John speaks to this here as well:
1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
18 ¶ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
*************************************************
What I think about is this. If what I hear being preached is found in the WORD and not contradicted in the scripture and is applicble not just to me as a Christian, but also to the Christian that hides in the basement with but a scrap of a page of the word and worships Jesus, then it is of God.
If however, it is not found in the word, or it is contradicted by the word, or it does not apply equally to me and also to the Christian that is living in the third world with nothing but persecution tribulation and trial in this life, then it is not of God.
When you tell me that that I can look around at your 400k home and 200k jet and what ever you can think of that you feel is blessing of God and tell me that you are living your reward... this is a sign of your faith... I say you are a liar because you do not have more faith than Paul and he had none of that.. you do not have more faith than a watchman Nee and he would have had no part of that! The Bible says we are blessed with all spiritual blessing in the heavenlies and in this life we will suffer because this world hates us as it hated him.
Does God also bless us with abundance? You bet! But not that we can lavish it on ourselves, but that we can use it to minister to the body and do HIS will.
When you tell me that you are without sickness because of your great faith and your bold prayers and because you believe that by HIS stripes you are healed. I say why? Why do you think that you have more faith than Paul's companion Epaphroditus, who was sick... nigh to death? Why do you think that you have more faith than the one who goes to their death praising God while their body is ravished by cancer and their hair falls out and their pain is beyond measure? How true to the word of God would this message be for this saint with cancer that has peace, Joy and power in the Holy Ghost though her body is being devoured from the inside out? Which message speaks of God most to those who watch each of these lives? Which illustration speaks most loudly of God's majesty to the angels?????
Are we healed now by HIS stripes... you bet, but sometimes it is not manifest in this life because it does not serve HIS purpose in this life.
When you tell me that because you just learned to believe God that he will give you the desires of your heart, just simply ask and believe and cars and planes and homes and new dresses what ever just come to you because you have learned to believe for them... and God just wills to bless you, I have to ask, why do you think that your faith is greater than the one that treks up a mountainside daily without shoes to preach Jesus to those in a remote village somewhere in India where people are dying and going to hell? Who is more in the will of God? How true to the word of God would your message of health wealth and prosperity and favormindedness ring in his ears?
God does give the desires of our heart... but sometimes what we desire is like the quail that the Isrealites desired in the desert... it will kill you! The richman had his reward in this life and none in the life to come. Sometimes we ought think about what our heart desires.
Matthew 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged | 
|
|
Pleasemaranatha
Advanced Member
Member # 5150
|
posted
I understand what you are saying. It is tough to find a church that teaches exactly correct. That is why we have switched so many times finding NOT one church that has everything perfect. We found all churches and ministers are faulty in some way. Like all of us members here are faulty at times with our postings without love or kindness.
To whom are we supposed to listen to and be taught by until Jesus calls us home? So far, THE HOLY SPIIRIT has always taught us HIS way. We have gleaned the truth from many places you would have a cow over. But, being hungry for fellowship with believers where God can move, teach, and have His way .....is worth the search.
Is the baptist church the only one we should join? Or a special denomination that is other than that? Is there a list of specific ministers that only are on track? Let me know? I am not being irreverant or joking. Which tv ministers on tv is ok? Is the 700 club ok? I watch it about everyday. What is your advice?
I love you guys and girls....but I don't know who to trust except God. If I hear something off He raises a red flag and I turn or flip the channel. Sometimes God does speak teaching me through the tv minister and shows me where I need to grow.
Thanks to you all for responding. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) I want to keep this upbeat and cool. Like I heard before from prob. someone on the tbn station, we better learn to get along down here before we spend an eternity together forever.
That is it for now. Anything I wrote now or earlier is just my opinion and I do respect your opinion. ![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif)
--------------------
My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning. Psalms 130 verse 6
Joyce
Posts: 308 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
Sister Joyce: You have testified here that you understand what you were before Christ and you know repentance and it is obvious to me that you love the Lord; care about his word, are not cavalier about it; are humble, and gifted with the ability to see our GREAT BIG GOD in the most simple of things... even a pot of dumplings!
Somewhere, you learned that you were lost and you were a wretched sinner who needed Christ and you became born again. Because you are born again, GOD is able to teach you all things by HIS spirit in spite of man! God is working all things together for your good and HIS glory because you love the Lord and are called according to HIS purpose and those who are Christ's have crucified the lusts of the flesh and the affections thereof!
Dont confuse the fruit of God with the fruit of men. If a man repents that is a result of God's work, not man's. If a man is saved, that is the power of the Gospel not man. If you are blessed by something man teaches it is because God moved in you to bless you. God can bless you through the devil if HE so desires. In fact God is an expert at taking what the enemy means for destruction and using it for HIS glory.
But sister Joyce? What about those that were drawn to a church and an altar call not because they were seeking forgiveness, repentance, slavation, Christ? What about those who came, not to learn to die, but to learn to get more power, more material things more self sufficiency? Today we have preachers that wont even use the word Sin! Today we have preachers that say come as you are and stay that way, God loves the monogomous homosexual and will not judge you. What about those who were like me and came as an innocent child and then spent 30 years living like a heathen pig because no one was there to teach the truth? Do you have any idea how much my ignorance cost not just me but the people around me? Do you have any idea just how much sin one can justify if they do not know the word of God... not man's feel good teaching of the word, but the word? What about those who come now for promises of a wonderful life in this life and are going to see persecution? Have you not read what happens to them?
**************************************************
Mark 4:16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word’s sake, immediately they are offended.
18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
*************************************************
This scripture of Matthew 7 that you keep quoting speaks of the fruit a false teacher has, and it speaks also of the fruit he gathers.
There is a false teaching that is alive and well among us that says we judge a person to be a man of God or a prophet of God or a servant of God or one who is producing fruit in the kingdom of God by the number of souls that attend one of his revival meetings or the size of the crowd that comes down the aisle in an alter call or the number of youth that flock to a concert or the number of people that pray a sinner's prayer at some function.
In fact, I just read a recent Barna poll where some 90+ % of pastors when asked about the spiritual condition of their church judged that based on church attendance, some based it slowly on that; a great number of others based it on that and whether the people were working in the body or church. That is not how God judges our spiritual condition.
First let us see what we are; we human's who are born again are not fruit of men, though we are God's fruit and can be gathered by men.
You can't measure another man's success by the number of souls that come to Christ at one of his meetings. We are not fruit of men.
WE ARE BRANCHES OF GOD!!!!
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
We every single one of us who are BRANCHES of God are called to bear fruit. Spiritual Fruit. This fruit is the EVIDENCE of the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD that indwells us:
Galatiains 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. {affections: or, passions}
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
These are the things that we see in the born again child of God that speak and show us that they are a born again child of God. This is not fruit they produce themselves... it is the fruit, evidence of HIS spirit that indwells the believer.
Souls that come to Christ are fruit of no man; they are branches spawned from the Sown seed of God that is the word of God. The word is the seed that produces branches. It does this of HIS power not ours. The word/seed has all that it needs to produce a plant when it falls into the right ground and roots form. We do not "win" souls to Christ; GOD calls; HIS word when mixed with Faith produces the branch. GOD's work.
The scriptures are absoulutely full of pictures of lying wonders and miracles produced by ungodly men.
The scriptures warn about lying wonders and signs of the devil that are produced by the one that appears as an angel of light.
The scriptures speak of those to whom Jesus will say "I NEVER KNEW YOU" yet they have prophesied and done miracles in HIS name![b]
Fruit is produced in a branch; The branch has no control over the fruit that it produces. The type of fruit is determined by the genetics of the root. The quality is determined by the environment and the nutrients delivered to the branch. The timing of the fruit is determined by the season.
Olive trees will never bring forth oranges or figs or anything other than olives. If an olive tree is wild and uncultivated it may not produce any fruit at all or it may produce fruit that is not very good fruit... not very much oil in the olive, but it is still an olive.
Jesus said he is the vine and we are the branches; if we live attached to the vine the vine will produce fruit in us because the vine is attached to the roots and the fruit that is produced will be the fruit of the root.
Men cannot control the fruit that they produce; the fruit is either good because it is produced by God who is Good; or the fruit is evil because it is produced by the root of the one who is evil.
All men have fruit; but only the born again man can have good fruit because only the born again man can produce fruit of the spirit of God.
I dont care how good your works look; if they were not HIS works manifest through you by HIS spirit, they are not good. God can and did manifest good works out of a donkey, and a pagan kings.
Your flesh is not of God; Your flesh is able to produce works that look good, but are still out of the flesh. We can see this any day of the week. I know heathen pagan occult practicing people who would give you the shirt from their back, take you into their home and feed you, could even teach you how to use your mind and your will to manifest success and prosperity. Napolean Hill, Andrew Canagie,Carl Jung, Anthony Robbins, Peter Drucker have been teaching men how to believe and succeed, believe and acheive since long before I was born and many have found health wealth prosperity and hapiness in the material things that they have manifest from their teachings. Inserting the words faith and Christ do not change anything if it is still man's will and not God's will that is being manifest or man's works and not God's works.
Off rant:
Back to Matthew 7 and what Jesus is teaching:
BUT HERE IS WHAT THEY (false teachers/wolves in sheeps clothing) WILL NOT HAVE... HOLY SPIRIT FRUIT!
We are warned of these things:
2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. {pernicious ways: or, lascivious ways, as some copies read}
3 ¶ And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
Brothers and sisters, can we not see these people today???? Maybe some of you cant, but I tell you I can see them, and they are like the false prophets of old; they feed themselves off the flock that they are supposed to be caring for; they speak of freedom and bring bondage; they lead the sheep astray and if you think that there are not thousands in the church today who are right now led astray you better think again. You have homosexuals in the pulpit; you have christians having abortions, you have Christians who are living in all manner of sin; you have people in the church who are in debt to their eyeballs ad cant pay their bills and their brothers who should be caring for them cant because their wealth is supporting TV preacher's mutimillion dollar compund.
The wolves are among us folks!
1. They teach heresy
2. They deny Christ
3. Many follow their pernicious ways
4. They are covetous
5. They make merchandise of those who follow them
1 John 4:1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Can we not see today some that deny that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh? Some deny him completely calling him an angel... a created being. But that is not the only way that he is denied to have come in the flesh!
Can we not see that some who say Jesus Jesus still deny that he came in the flesh because they preach that he had to die in the spirit to save us? Can we not see that if we deny that Jesus is GOD manifest in the Flesh.... the perfect unblemished sacrifice that condemned sin IN THE FLESH, the ONE who commended his spirit to GOD and then gave up the Ghost, then we also Deny that Jesus came in the Flesh?
What was Jesus talking about when he said: by their fruits ye shall know them? The prophet is known by the fruits he has and by the fruits he gathers!
Matthew 7:15 ¶ Beware of false prophets,
First we have to recognize that these that Jesus is warning about are prophets, claiming to speak the word of God as sheep, come to sheep
which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Here is the clue... they look like sheep; but they are wolves; they have a ravenous appetite for sheep
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
We have to be careful not to miss this; Jesus is now talking about men who gather fruit. he says look at the people who gather fruit in the vinyard, do they gather grapes from Thorn Bushes? Do they Gather figs from Thisles...no grapes are gathered from grape vines and figs from fig trees. Men gather grapes from grape vines and figs from fig trees; grapes and figs are God's harvest. Are these men gathering God's harvest from God's vines and fig trees... that is the next thing we are to look at.
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
when we look at the fig trees and the grape vines to see that they are fig trees and grape vines and not thorns and thistles, then we look knowing that even among fig trees and grape vines there are good and bad.
Jesus says a good tree WILL bring forth Good fruit. and a corupt tree will bring forth evil fruit
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Don't miss this: a good tree cannot CANNOT bring forth evil fruit. See 1 John 3:9
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
EVERY tree that does not bring forth Good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
We know the tree by the fruit; is there Holy Spirit fruit?
But we also know the ones that Gather fruit, by the fruit they gather.
It is not enough to see great numbers of people coming to alter calls.
We must see that the gathered fruit also has fruit.
[b]If the one who gathers is gathering great numbers who never produce fruit, then we can see a problem.
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Jesus says it is not enough that you call to him Lord Lord.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
MANY will say LORD LORD.... this many will have works... good works, so it seems.
They have prophesied in HIS name and have Cast out devils in HIS name, and done many WONDERFUL works. WORKS ARE NOT FRUIT!!!!
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
BUT JESUS NEVER KNEW THEM; THEY were not HIS sheep; THEY were those who work iniquity. They produced fruit that is evil - The Holy Spirit was missing - they could not produce Good Fruit and they not having the Holy Spirit, not being born again produced EVIL fruit.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
ONLY when our House is built on the Rock...Christ is the Son of the Living God... the Messiah. Only when our house is built in faith believing unto rebirth and we have the indwelling Holy Spirit, will our house stand when the rains and the flood and the winds come.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Today, we can see the apostasy; we can see the falling away. The winds and the rains and the floods are coming and the houses are falling.
The church is absolutely full of fruit that was gathered together by false prophets and teachers and they have not built their house upon the rock. And their houses are falling.
False prophets and false teachers devour the sheep. Jesus commanded that his disciples go out into the world and make disciples. This body must get bent on making disciples more than gathering figs and grapes with no regard for the quality of the fruit. We have so concerned ourselves with the size of the harvest that we have failed to regard the product we are harvesting. This is not love! This is not of God! This is a sin and a crime. This is to our shame.
We have allowed the enmy to lie to us and to breed in us fear that we can judge nothing of doctrine and nothing of teaching and we call this love... we have bought the lie that he is spreading "touch not mine annointed". We have forgotten everything that Paul said about church disipline and we ignore that Paul took, Peter, and James and Cephas & John to task over false doctrine and he did this out of love.
We have to stop looking at people who call themselves members of this body and praising them for the great numbers that they can gather and realize that if those whom they gather are not building their houses on the ROCK, their houses are going to fall and it will be as much our fault as it is the fault of the wolves in sheeps clothing that came to gather them.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
|
posted
Joyce,
Maybe it would be helpful to your understanding of Why we call these teachers out to do a "Search" here on the name or names of the teachers you're concerned about. Read some of the threads (believe me, there are many) and hopefully you'll understand where we're coming from and why?
A search is easy to do here. At the top of the page you'll see " my profile | directory | search | faq | forum home " Just click on search, type in the name and make sure to check both this section (Exposing False Teaching) and Bible Study as there are 'discussions' in both sections. Unfortunately we've lost a lot of information on the board recently... but still, there should be ample threads to read through.
I hope this is helpful
--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Pleasemaranatha
Advanced Member
Member # 5150
|
posted
A corrupt tree, Jesus said, cannot produce good fruit.
By their fruits they will be known. Many have been blessed by God watching ministers on TBN.
Sure some humna being ministers have made a few mistakes now and then.......but they produced good fruit.
Many sinners have been shown their sins and ran to repent and ask God for forgiveness. They have heard the Holy inspired word of God through many ministers on TBN and have grown in service to OUR LORD GOD. GOOD fruit fed them. A corrupt tree cannot produce good fruit.....Jesus said.
--------------------
My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning. Psalms 130 verse 6
Joyce
Posts: 308 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
|
posted
If a teacher is wresting scripture and teaching contrary to the Word, it matters not how "good" it feels/appears, it is corrupt.
There are large numbers who flock to, and defend Benny Hinn, and he is as false and corrupt as any of the current flock on TBN.
Rev. 3:
17: Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19: As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Pleasemaranatha
Advanced Member
Member # 5150
|
posted
Dear Soft touch, Helpforhomeschoolers, Caretaker, and the others. I don't want to stir a fight up or have trouble in any way....but need to ask you all this question.
Jesus said in Matt. 7: verse 18 that a good tree cannot give evil fruit, or a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Ok ...with that being so true. Why have so many people that I have known (including myself) have eaten good fruits from most of these ministers you accuse of evil. Many have been blessed, grown close to the Lord, been saved by God's words through their ministries. If they only produce good fruits from their labours from Our Lord...........they should be good preachers and believers right? I keep reading this chapter over and over not seeing them as false prophets. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
That is why I posted a ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif) to Born Again. What if you all are wrong with your accusations against them? ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
I do know some false prophets and teachers. But some of the ones you name are good not bad. And isn't it dangerous for you to be wrongly discerning some of them? ![[updown]](graemlins/updown.gif)
Thanks,
Matthew 7
1Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
6Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
12Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
King James Version (KJV)
--------------------
My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning. Psalms 130 verse 6
Joyce
Posts: 308 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
hardcore
Advanced Member
Member # 4492
|
posted
Once again, HFHS sets the record straight.
Nicely done and a hearty amen from me.
Posts: 627 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
BA:
quote:
But you people on this forum are not railing against Mormons and JWs, you are railing against bornagain saved Christians who generally are not aware of this CBBS nor participate on this CBBS and who cannot defend themselves here; that is completely different than railing against Mormons or New Age or perhaps JWs.
Not so! First of all, the teachers that have been spoken of are ones who have set themselves up having knowledge and authority to teach the things they teach. Their teachings are by that fact subject to the scrutiny of Body. The scripture requires each of us to try all things, test all spirits. We have spoken against things that people who claim to be born again christian's teach that are contrary to the Bible. And we have named names of those who teach these things. We have also given much scriptural support showing that this is right to do, and you have never refuted that scriptural application, but have instead tried to show why it does not matter that people teach contrary to the scripture. I really do not understand that. Can you show some scriptural support that shows where God says that it does not matter what people teach?
quote:
but, not to worry, sister SoftTouch, nobody here knows what you personally believe since you only post stuff about other people.
THis is not true BA. I know what Softtouch believes, Drew knows, Cory knows, I would venture that ByGrace knows. Frankly, It is beyond me that you dont know. I dont see that Deb posts so much about other people as she posts about the current apostasy in the church with out any respect of persons. I believe that this is what Paul taught that we should not esteem any person above what is written. God is not a respector of persons.
God did not care that Moses had done great things in obedience to God, when Moses failed to be obedient and struck the rock twice instead of speaking to it as God had said, it cost Moses.
Paul said:1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Peter himself was in error and had to be corrected, but not only did Paul correct Peter, Paul continued to teach that what Peter had taught in error was error!!!
Do you really believe that if Peter had not recognized the Spirit of God in Paul that rebuked him, and Peter had not ceased to teach Circumcision that Paul would have kept silent?
quote:
2 Thessalonians 3:11
For we hear that there are some who walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
4020 periergazomai periergazomai per-ee-er-gad’-zom-ahee
from 4012 and 2038; ; v
AV-be a busybody 1; 1
1) to bustle about uselessly, to busy one’s self about trifling, needless, useless matters
1a) used apparently of a person officiously inquisitive about other’s affairs
When have you ever seen Deb be disorderly? You may think it trifling, needless, useless to be concerned with what is being spoken in the church and in the world and called the word of God though it is contrary to the word, but I do not believe that the scripture agrees with you BA.
Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
1 Corinthians 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
Further, I have never heard Deb gossiping or inquiring into the affairs of others; watching wha t is happening in the church and the world; seeing how it applies to prophesy and scripture is not inquiring into the affairs of others BA, it is something that Jesus commanded that we all do.. WATCH... BE SOBER....FEED MY SHEEP.
quote:
1 Timothy 5:13
And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.
1 Peter 4:15
But let none of you suffer as a murderer or as a thief or as an evildoer or as a busybody in other men's matters.
Matters of false teaching in the body, matters of sin in the body, matters of end time prophesy being fulfilled before our eyes are not "other men's matters" they are the matter of the church, every one of us in the church.
Perhaps your lack of ability to see anything valuable in what Deb does is related to your own struggles with feeling like you dont not have any time for any buden but the one you have for your own walk? You say you have not now enough time to worry about these things. You are so busy thinking about your own walk you have no time to be concerned about any one else's walk or lack there of.
The trouble with that is BA, that we are supposed to care about each other's walk, we are supposed to bear each other's burdens, we are supposed to rebuke, reprove and refute each other for sin and for error; we are supposed to uplift encourage and pray for each other. We are supposed to love each other as Christ loved and Brother... that means loving and carring more about what your brother is going through than what you are going through, because you have cast your own cares over onto God who is carring for you that you can care for someone else.
Now you may think that the things that Deb speaks of are of no consequence, but you are dead wrong! They have great consequince. There are people right now who are in our churches believing they have all things and are blessed beyond measure and they are naked, and blind and luke warm! There are people who are sitting on church pews today that tomorrow may hear I never knew you. There are people right now in this world strugggling with their faith because some preacher is telling them that they are still dying of cancer because they have not enough faith! There are people right now as we speak in bondage to sin in their flesh because all they hear about in their church is how to get material wealth and their preacher doesnt preach or use the word sin. There are right now people in churches that cant pay their rent and the church doesnt know and couldnt help if they wanted to because the wealth of that church is being consumed by some speaker at a camp meeting where the people do flock looking for something that they are not getting in their own church. These are not other men's problems BA... they are your problems and my problems and ever other memeber of this body's problems!!!!!
When God gives us a burden for something we have to respond whether we want to or not, whether we think we have time or not. Deb has a burden for deception in the church, and those who are affected by it. Does that fact that God has not given you this burden make hers not valid, not real, not something she should respond to?
Why do you presume that she is not doing all the same that you do with regard to her growing up into Christ and still she finds time to do these things to research and to compare the scriptures and to post? I know that she has a family and she takes care of them; I know that she is active in her church and that they attend Bible study at their church; I know that every day she spends time in the word and in prayer; I know that she is also involved in crafts and things that contribute to financial needs in her church; and I know that she is quick to support material needs in the Body when she is aware of them. Why do you presume that she must be idle running house to house doing nothing because she also finds time for her internet reasearch, study and posting? How do you know that the time and money that you spend at the track is not time and money she spends studying what is happening in the world and in the church? Is your time more well spent than hers? On what measure do you judge that bro?
quote:
Matthew 7:3
And why do you look at the mote that is in your brother's eye, but do not consider the beam that is in your own eye?
What makes you so dog gone sure that Deb has not removed the beam from her own eye with regard to the things she does speak of? I am sure wa all have some beams, but we do not all have the same beams. Has God given you some special revelation that you know that Deb is trying to help someone pull this particular sliver from someone's eye, when she still has it in hers? I see that Deb is pretty adept at discerning apostasy and when what is said does not line up with scripture and that makes her able to help someone else. Maybe you are not free of this beam and are not able to help someone else in this matter. Dont rail against one who is. Instead minster to those who need help with the beams you have already by HIS power had removed from your eyes. To whom much is given much is required!
Love In Christ, your sister
Linda
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
hardcore
Advanced Member
Member # 4492
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
but, not to worry, sister SoftTouch, nobody here knows what you personally believe since you only post stuff about other people.
2 Thessalonians 3:11
For we hear that there are some who walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
1 Timothy 5:13
And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.
1 Peter 4:15
But let none of you suffer as a murderer or as a thief or as an evildoer or as a busybody in other men's matters.
Matthew 7:3
And why do you look at the mote that is in your brother's eye, but do not consider the beam that is in your own eye?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
BA,
To say that nobody here knows what SoftTouch personally believes is unfair and not true.
Personal attacks are not necessary, nor is randomly grabbing scripture and using it as a weapon. Quite frankly, signing off with God Bless after a post like this seems a bit odd also.
Are you just being grumpy? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posts: 627 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
|
posted
God bless you Deb!!!!!!
Can one who is unable to discern between the overtly counterfeit of the Watchtower Doctrine, and the Basic Tenets of the Christian faith be in any position of theological or exegetical credibility?
It is the covert and insidious poison of the PDCs, WOF, Positive Confession, apostles of prosperity, that those who attack the messengers will continue to fail to comprehend and discern.
1 Cor. 2:
9: But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10: But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11: For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12: Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13: Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15: But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16: For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
2 Timothy 3:
16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Main Entry: doc•trine
Pronunciation: 'däk-tr&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French, from Latin doctrina, from doctor
1 archaic : TEACHING, INSTRUCTION
2 a : something that is taught b : a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief : DOGMA c : a principle of law established through past decisions d : a statement of fundamental government policy especially in international relations
Main Entry: re•proof
Pronunciation: ri-'prüf
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English reprof, from Middle French reprove, from Old French, from reprover
: criticism for a fault : REBUKE
Main Entry: 1re•buke
Pronunciation: ri-'byük
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): re•buked; re•buk•ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Old North French rebuker
1 a : to criticize sharply : REPRIMAND b : to serve as a rebuke to
2 : to turn back or keep down : CHECK
synonym see REPROVE
- re•buk•er noun
Main Entry: cor•rec•tion
Pronunciation: k&-'rek-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : the action or an instance of correcting : as a : AMENDMENT, RECTIFICATION b : REBUKE, PUNISHMENT c : a bringing into conformity with a standard d : NEUTRALIZATION, COUNTERACTION <correction of acidity>
2 : a decline in market price or business activity following and counteracting a rise
3 a : something substituted in place of what is wrong <marking corrections on the students' papers> b : a quantity applied by way of correcting (as for adjustment of an instrument)
4 : the treatment and rehabilitation of offenders through a program involving penal custody, parole, and probation; also : the administration of such treatment as a matter of public policy -- usually used in plural
- cor•rec•tion•al /-shn&l, -sh&-n&l/ adjective
Main Entry: righ•teous
Pronunciation: 'rI-ch&s
Function: adjective
Etymology: alter. of earlier rightuous, alteration of Middle English rightwise, rightwos, from Old English rihtwIs, from riht, noun, right + wIs wise
1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin
2 a : morally right or justifiable <a righteous decision> b : arising from an outraged sense of justice or morality <righteous indignation>
3 slang : GENUINE, GOOD
synonym see MORAL
- righ•teous•ly adverb
- righ•teous•ness noun
Matt. 24:
11: And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12: And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13: But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
24: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
I wonder if those who are defending false teaching/teachers, and attacking the messengers, will they even recognize and be able to discern false Christs when they arise?
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
|
posted
Jude 3-4Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Titus 1: 10For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
Titus 1: 13This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Ephesians 5:11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
sister SoftTouch writes quote:
LOL BA, it's truly sad when you have to resort to using Scripture to call me names and bear false witness against me.
If not the scriptures, what should I have resorted to, sister? New Age material?
And now suddenly it is "bear false witness against me"? What do you suppose all those people whom you have spoken against for several years would have to say to YOU? Would it not go something like this? quote:
LOL SoftTouch, it's truly sad when you have to resort to using Scripture to call me names and bear false witness against me.
sister, I called you nothing more or less than what the scriptures themselves say you are doing: tattling and being a busibody into other men's affairs. I called you nothing of my own at all, but only what the Holy Spirit called it.
You write quote:
The Lord knows my heart as do my Brothers and Sisters here.
ah, your heart, that's easy to say and anybody can say that. But who knows what your doctrine is? Now that is more difficult and would be much more revealing, wouldn't it?
Luke 5:23
Which is easier to say, Your sins are forgiven you?; or to say, Rise up and walk?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
IP: Logged |
|
|
SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
|
posted
LOL BA, it's truly sad when you have to resort to using Scripture to call me names and bear false witness against me. I thought you more mature then that.
The Lord knows my heart as do my Brothers and Sisters here.
--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
but, not to worry, sister SoftTouch, nobody here knows what you personally believe since you only post stuff about other people.
2 Thessalonians 3:11
For we hear that there are some who walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
1 Timothy 5:13
And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.
1 Peter 4:15
But let none of you suffer as a murderer or as a thief or as an evildoer or as a busybody in other men's matters.
Matthew 7:3
And why do you look at the mote that is in your brother's eye, but do not consider the beam that is in your own eye?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
IP: Logged |
|
|
SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
|
posted
Brother Drew, It's Pointless to talk to the deaf and blind (shaking head ruefully) they obviously don't want to see or hear.
--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
|
posted
BA:
SoftTouch writes
quote:The Bible says it is God's place to judge who is Saved and who is not... not ours [Wink]
how convenient. It's up to God to decide that, but up to you to revile endlessly about rewards? [Wink]
Revelation 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Is God going to have a conference with you to find out who is eligible for rewards before the rewards are handed out? I can hear you protest now:
"What??? You are going to give a reward to Joel Osteen? And rewards to Kenneth and Gloria Copeland??? Are you kidding me?!?!? Haven't you read what we have posted for You on the CBBS about these 'false teachers'????"
God bless, BORN AGAIN
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1) You JUST now grudingly admit that maybe JWs are not your Brethren but you will ask them about the arch-angel Michael. You had the truth on JWs given to you 4 years ago and you still accept them as believers, regardless of what they believe.
2) False teachers, those who wrest and pervert the Word are a reality. It was abundantly clear that the doctrines of sin, repentence, redemption were alien to Joel Osteen when he appeared on Larry King, and that was why he dropped the ball and had to post his apology. He says that he does not want theology to interfere with his messages, and it is readily apparent.
3) False teachers lead others away from the Gospel of Christ, into an "easy believeism feel good self esteem, God is your sugar daddy with anything your little heart desires, just feel good about yourself where you are at", brand of theology contrary to His Word.
Of course to many, anything goes as long as they use the name of Jesus somewhere in their message.
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Pleasemaranatha
Advanced Member
Member # 5150
|
posted
THANKS Born AGAIN for that post.
--------------------
My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning. Psalms 130 verse 6
Joyce
Posts: 308 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
SoftTouch writes quote:
The Bible says it is God's place to judge who is Saved and who is not... not ours ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
how convenient. It's up to God to decide who is saved, but it's up to you to rail endlessly about their rewards?
Revelation 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Is God now going to have a conference with you to find out who is eligible for rewards before the rewards are handed out? I can hear you protest now:
"What??? You are going to give a reward to Joel Osteen? And also rewards to Kenneth and Gloria Copeland??? And to Joyce Myer???? Are you kidding me?!?!? Haven't You read ANYTHING of what we have "faithfully" posted for You on our CBBS about all those false teachers???? I spent YEARS pasting that all in for You!" ![[crying]](graemlins/crying.gif)
Then Jesus answered:
Mark 9:41
For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, verily I say to you, he shall NOT lose his reward.
Just a cup of water! ![[roll on floor]](graemlins/6.gif)
God bless, BORN AGAIN
IP: Logged |
|
|
SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
|
posted
The Bible says it is God's place to judge who is Saved and who is not... not ours
--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
Caretaker or anyone, Do you think that the majority of the people coming week after week to Joel Osteen's church are saved, or not? I say they are saved on the basics, that they believe Jesus was and is the Son of God of Israel and that the LORD God of Israel raised Jesus from the dead. Those are the basics by which one is saved in Christianity, and on that basis the majority attending Osteen's church are saved, in my opinion.
What do you say?
BORN AGAIN
IP: Logged |
|
|
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
|
posted
http://www.forgottenword.org/osteen.html
The Concerns
Joel Osteen Master of Marketeering
Joel Osteen has absolutely no biblical training or experience to be a pastor. Charismatic pulpits are filled with people who feel “called” to the pastorate and that is enough for them and those who follow them. They attempt to build congregations on the “strength” of their calling. Some charismatic leaders may go on to some unaccredited “ Bible School ” for a year or two, none (which encompasses a large group of ministers) that we were ever acquainted with attended any legitimate seminary.
Would you allow a surgeon to operate on you because he felt “called” to be a surgeon as a child, but never went on to medical school? Or would you allow someone to build your house who firmly believed God had called him to be an architect yet had never gone on to college to study architectural design? Of course not, it would be the height of foolishness!
Yet millions of professing Christians are more than willing to follow a man (or woman) who says “God” has called them and has supernaturally equipped them to be ministers. These especially anointed men and women have no need to study Church history, hermeneutics, systematic theology and struggle through Greek and Hebrew as other ministers do. They hear directly from God (this is especially true for the sign-gift[7] pastors, most seeker-sensitive churches are led by seminary educated individuals).
So my first main concern is that we have a man in the pulpit of the largest congregation in America , being beamed around the world that has no biblical education or training for the vocation he says he has! To me we have a clear case of the blind leading the blind (read Luke 6:39) with the end result being masses of people falling into the ditch of spiritual ignorance, abuse and/or extremism.
Joel Osteen made the following statement which ought to be enough to drive 1,000’s of people away from his church:
Osteen’s upbeat style is deliberate and authentic. ‘Make church relevant,’ he says. ‘Give them something to be able to take away. I find today people are not looking for theology. There’s a place for it, [But] in your everyday life you need to know how to live.[8]
That statement is loaded with seeker-sensitive “code.” My wife and I left a North American Baptist church of over 1,000 members which had as its acronym “GPARS” which stood for: (1) Grace; (2) People; (3) Authenticity; (4) Relevance and (5) Small groups.
Of course Osteen’s “style” is upbeat, would you expect negativity from a positive confession devotee? No! Deliberate, absolutely, he really believes much of the WOF nonsense his father taught him all his life, not to mention whatever offbeat spirituality he may have gleaned from his two years at Oral Roberts University . Authentic? Without a doubt! What you see is what you get. Joel Osteen is a man without any biblical education but an admitted talent for marketing.
To be a success in marketing you have to know where people itch and scratch it. Or, you have to create a desire in them by creating a hunger for something they currently do not have nor formerly knew they needed. All commercials can be condensed down to one of these two truths.
So to become a mega-church a pastor has to make church relevant. He has to give the people what they want, something that soothes that spiritual itch. In order to be a “success” (i.e. large masses of people and money) pastors must preach unchallenging messages that uplift rather than convict. He must pander to the lowest common denominator and make sure that whatever is taught does not offend anymore at anytime. What we are seeing is really nothing new, it is a simply fulfillment of 2Ti 4:3-4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
This is exactly where multitudes of people are spiritually today. The above text also helps explain the phenomena of people like Robert Schuller, Rick Warren, Bill Hybels and now, Joel Osteen.
Osteen goes on to say that “I find today that people are not looking for theology.” Well that is obvious because if they were they would not find any sound theology at Lakewood ! Although he does not reveal to the readers where he found this astonishing fact out, it appears the folks he has talked to have no interest in theology.
Lest you think me a bit harsh let me remind you that theology simply means “the knowledge of God.” In essence Osteen has said that people are really not interested in learning about God. Somehow (undoubtedly due to his lack of biblical education) he has made a disconnect between knowing the God of the Bible via sound biblical theology and “knowing how to live.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
|
posted
ToBeConbtinbued:
Recently we have all observed certain bloggers and others on the Internet severely criticizing Joel Osteen, the pastor of Houston's Lakewood Church and rising star in evangelical circles.
Osteen is being subjected to controversy due to the content of his sermons, which critics say emphasize too much psychology and too little Gospel. Some critics have crossed a line and accuse Osteen of being apostate and a false teacher. If you search the net for "Joel Osteen" you can find many of them waving pitchforks and buckets of tar and feathers with Osteen's name on them.
One specifically said that Osteen was "clueless, "evil" and "apostate," stating affirmatively that Osteen was not just one of these things, but "ALL of them" and more.
I say this not to condemn, but simply to illustrate that there are other "diseases" out there besides preaching an incomplete gospel, as some accuse Osteen of. One disease is knowing Christian doctrine a lot more than one knows the living Person of Christ. You can know the Bible and still have very little real growth. Time and again I have seen people who have some Christian knowledge lash out against someone with whom they disagree without ever considering their own spirit first.
Of course, no one here other than myself is guilty of that I am sure -
It amazes me how many people feel free to condemn other Christians personally and by name as if this were a political arena and not the Body of Christ.
Having read Osteen's book I cannot deny that I have been greatly helped by it. Osteen does emphasize positive thinking. But psychology is part of our God-created humanity.
Who is supposed to help us with it? Sigmund Freud? Surely God’s word has something to say about it, and it does. Christians are human and so DO tend to think too negatively.
We DO think about our problems more than the Solution. We DO doubt God's promises. We DO miss out on God's best. Osteen provides tools to break through that negativity. Where does it say that a Christian teacher should not emphasize psychology?
Like I said, if Christian teachers don't do this, to whom shall we go? Worldly psychologists?
One blogger who condemned Osteen wrote in conclusion about him “you will never get to know Jesus listening to him. Never.”
In my experience, this statement is manifestly false. Osteen’s teaching has brought me closer to Jesus by helping me break through those negative barriers in my mind which keep me from Him.
I do not feel I am a shallow Christian. I know the Bible and have studied it for years. I know Christ and him crucified. I believe in the incarnated, crucified, resurrected and ascended Christ. I believe Jesus Christ is God and man and is the sacrifice for the sins of the world and that salvation and a relationship with God is acquired only through believing in this Jesus Christ.
I believe Joel Osteen believes in this Christ as well. Some accuse Osteen of being essentially the same as Anthony Robbins. I have read Robbins. He's a nice man, but he comes from a different place, a different spirit, than Osteen.
The similarities are superficial. There is no power behind Robbins' words. There is behind Osteen's. And according to my discernment, that power is the Spirit of God.
When I read Osteen I feel closer to God and more hopeful that He will do a good work in me.
If Osteen said what he preaches is the be-all and end-all then, yes, he would have a problem. But he doesn't. He clearly says that he feels called to preach the way he does and does not necessarily consider himself an evangelist.
Here is a link link to a Joel Osteen sermon where he clearly preaches the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the hope of the world.
Here is an excerpt:
And see, friends, the good news of Resurrection Sunday, the reason we can celebrate today, is because God gladly, with great joy and pleasure, He accepted the sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. And now no longer do we have sin to hang on us and to drag us down to hell. The price has already been paid once and for all. Isn't that good news?
See, and the Bible says that Jesus obtained an eternal redemption for our sins. One translation says, "an eternal release from our sins." See, friends, we don't have to be redeemed once a year anymore. We have been eternally redeemed not by the blood of bulls and goats, but by the blood--the precious blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.
There is no reason to think that Osteen no longer believes this.
You can believe in Christ crucified and still be a negative, vindictive and judging Christian. It is interesting that when I read blogs by self-appointed exposers of false teaching, I more often than not sense an unloving, harsh, judgmental spirit. Why is that?
Could it be that wishing to "out" whomever one thinks is in error and being puffed up with knowledge go hand in hand?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I read that apologetics for Osteen on the web yesterday.
It might be helpful to provide the link to the article.
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
ToBeContinued
unregistered
|
posted
Source
Recently we have all observed certain bloggers and others on the Internet severely criticizing Joel Osteen, the pastor of Houston's Lakewood Church and rising star in evangelical circles.
Osteen is being subjected to controversy due to the content of his sermons, which critics say emphasize too much psychology and too little Gospel. Some critics have crossed a line and accuse Osteen of being apostate and a false teacher. If you search the net for "Joel Osteen" you can find many of them waving pitchforks and buckets of tar and feathers with Osteen's name on them.
One specifically said that Osteen was "clueless, "evil" and "apostate," stating affirmatively that Osteen was not just one of these things, but "ALL of them" and more.
I say this not to condemn, but simply to illustrate that there are other "diseases" out there besides preaching an incomplete gospel, as some accuse Osteen of. One disease is knowing Christian doctrine a lot more than one knows the living Person of Christ. You can know the Bible and still have very little real growth. Time and again I have seen people who have some Christian knowledge lash out against someone with whom they disagree without ever considering their own spirit first.
Of course, no one here other than myself is guilty of that I am sure -
It amazes me how many people feel free to condemn other Christians personally and by name as if this were a political arena and not the Body of Christ.
Having read Osteen's book I cannot deny that I have been greatly helped by it. Osteen does emphasize positive thinking. But psychology is part of our God-created humanity.
Who is supposed to help us with it? Sigmund Freud? Surely God’s word has something to say about it, and it does. Christians are human and so DO tend to think too negatively.
We DO think about our problems more than the Solution. We DO doubt God's promises. We DO miss out on God's best. Osteen provides tools to break through that negativity. Where does it say that a Christian teacher should not emphasize psychology?
Like I said, if Christian teachers don't do this, to whom shall we go? Worldly psychologists?
One blogger who condemned Osteen wrote in conclusion about him “you will never get to know Jesus listening to him. Never.”
In my experience, this statement is manifestly false. Osteen’s teaching has brought me closer to Jesus by helping me break through those negative barriers in my mind which keep me from Him.
I do not feel I am a shallow Christian. I know the Bible and have studied it for years. I know Christ and him crucified. I believe in the incarnated, crucified, resurrected and ascended Christ. I believe Jesus Christ is God and man and is the sacrifice for the sins of the world and that salvation and a relationship with God is acquired only through believing in this Jesus Christ.
I believe Joel Osteen believes in this Christ as well. Some accuse Osteen of being essentially the same as Anthony Robbins. I have read Robbins. He's a nice man, but he comes from a different place, a different spirit, than Osteen.
The similarities are superficial. There is no power behind Robbins' words. There is behind Osteen's. And according to my discernment, that power is the Spirit of God.
When I read Osteen I feel closer to God and more hopeful that He will do a good work in me.
If Osteen said what he preaches is the be-all and end-all then, yes, he would have a problem. But he doesn't. He clearly says that he feels called to preach the way he does and does not necessarily consider himself an evangelist.
Here is a link link to a Joel Osteen sermon where he clearly preaches the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the hope of the world.
Here is an excerpt:
And see, friends, the good news of Resurrection Sunday, the reason we can celebrate today, is because God gladly, with great joy and pleasure, He accepted the sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. And now no longer do we have sin to hang on us and to drag us down to hell. The price has already been paid once and for all. Isn't that good news?
See, and the Bible says that Jesus obtained an eternal redemption for our sins. One translation says, "an eternal release from our sins." See, friends, we don't have to be redeemed once a year anymore. We have been eternally redeemed not by the blood of bulls and goats, but by the blood--the precious blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.
There is no reason to think that Osteen no longer believes this.
You can believe in Christ crucified and still be a negative, vindictive and judging Christian. It is interesting that when I read blogs by self-appointed exposers of false teaching, I more often than not sense an unloving, harsh, judgmental spirit. Why is that?
Could it be that wishing to "out" whomever one thinks is in error and being puffed up with knowledge go hand in hand?
Source
IP: Logged |
|
|
SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
|
posted
AMEN Drew, Hardcore, and Wparr!
quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
If you study those verses: secretly introduce; means to lay along side.
So the false teachers lay their destructive heresies along side the Truth or the Gospel (thus contaminating it).
Or as the following verses say "Perverting it"
quote:
Galatians 1: 6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
wparr
Advanced Member
Member # 891
|
posted
2 Peter 2:1-3
(1) But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
(2) Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
(3) and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
Yahweh seems to indicate that the false teachers, like the false prophets are lost and going to hell.
This shows that God FORKNEW who the false teachers would be, and has ALREADY judged them - GUILTY!
Fight it all you want BA - Yahweh said it, that settles it, I believe it.
If you study those verses: secretly introduce; means to lay along side.
So the false teachers lay their destructive heresies along side the Truth or the Gospel (thus contaminating it).
So BA when you say "but at least they are presenting the gospel, that's what matters"
God sees it otherwise, and how HE sees it is all that matters.
Yahweh does not take lightly the mingling of destructive heresies with His Truth.
He judges the doers of such HARSHLY.
People - look closely at which side you are aligning yourself with.
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
hardcore
Advanced Member
Member # 4492
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
But is it not true that the vast majority of the people in the audience of say, Kenneth Copeland or Joyce Myers, are ALREADY saved ...
Vast majority? - HUGE assumption.
But let's just assume for a minute that the vast majority really are saved. (you know what they say about assuming, right?)
1. - What does that have to do with the false teaching of Copeland or Meyer? Nothing.
2. - All that would prove is exactly what we've been saying all along - that there are a whole lot of seriously deceived Christians out there.
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it - Matthew 7:13-14
It is not by accident, that these two verses are immediately followed by this one:
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves - Matthew 7:15
Posts: 627 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
|
posted
Matt. 7:
21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
This could be applicable to so many who follow Hagin, Copeland, Osteen, Meyers, Hinn, etc, etc....
2 Peter 2:
1: But there were false prophets also among the people, false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2: And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3: And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
This could certainly be applicable to anyone who refuses to believe that Jesus is YHWH manifest in the flesh.
1 Tim 3:
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
Caretaker writes quote:
It is the true Gospel which saves through HEART belief, not lip-service through some cotton-candy fluff-filled session of self-esteem feel-goodism.
But is it not true that the vast majority of the people in the audience of say, Kenneth Copeland or Joyce Myers, are ALREADY saved and the rest is, at it were, Christianity rewards-gravy on top of salvation.
Or are you asserting that the SALVATION by the basics of Christianity of ALREADY SAVED saved Christians in the audience of say, a Kenneth Copeland or Joyce Myers, will actually become UNSAVED by listening to rewards-gravy teaching on top of salvation?
Are you asserting that they will lose their salvation, or not?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
IP: Logged |
|
|
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
|
posted
BA:
But we're mostly just talking rewards here, right, not salvation? The vast majority of the people listening to the preachers/teachers are already saved by the basics of Christianity, so we can only be in rewards territory here.
And while rewards are nice, they're not worth shouting or rebuking each other over and calling them "false teachers" or whatever, as if salvation is at stake.
BORN AGAIN
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Matt. 7:
21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24: Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26: And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
28: And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
29: For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
David laid it out pretty well for you, BA, in that other thread. It is the true Gospel which saves through HEART belief, not lip-service through some cotton-candy fluff-filled session of self-esteem feel-goodism.
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
But we're mostly just talking rewards here, right, not salvation? The vast majority of the people listening to the preachers/teachers are already saved by the basics of Christianity, so we can only be in rewards territory here.
And while rewards are nice, they're not worth shouting or rebuking each other over and calling them "false teachers" or whatever, as if salvation is at stake.
BORN AGAIN
IP: Logged |
|
|
SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
|
posted
Amen Brothers David and Drew, Amen
--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
|
posted
Main Entry: 4rail
Function: intransitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French railler to mock, from Old Provençal ralhar to babble, joke, from (assumed) Vulgar Latin ragulare to bray, from Late Latin ragere to neigh
: to revile or scold in harsh, insolent, or abusive language
BA:
Okay, I see that you have reverted to railing against the Mormons and the JWs, and I agree that the Mormons are not Christians, and from what Watcher wrote the JWs probably are not either (although I will check with them about the Archangel Michael, etc.).
But you people here are not railing against Mormons and JWs, you are railing against bornagain saved Christians who generally do not participate on this CBBS and who cannot defend themselves here; that is completely different than railing against Mormons or New Age or perhaps JWs.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1) The teachers of deception who are leading others astray are teaching in the public forums through their televised programs, books, radio, and multitude of public pulpits. They have many times been confronted with their error and publicly revile and denigrate their detractors,(ie. Benny Hinn and his desire for a Holy Ghost machine gun to shoot-down those who disagree with him, on the public forum of TBN).
These apostles of prosperity who teach another Jesus,(who they teach was tortured by the Devil and born again in Hell), who twist and pervert scripture to substantiate their error and rake-in millions of dollars from the blinded, have many defenders on this forum.
When one places themselves in a position of authority, and their teachings become public so as to influence large numbers, then their theology must be scrutinized. If they are in error, and they refuse correction, then they are to be publicly corrected.
Matt. 18:
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
David had a very good response to you in his post:
http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=53;t=000115
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
Caretaker writes to BORN AGAIN quote:
When they teach contrary to the Word. When they wrest scriptures to validate false doctrine. When they teach Jesus was the arch-angel Michael. When they teach that Jesus was born-again in hell. When a Jesus is taught who is contrary to the Lord Jesus Christ as revealed in His Word, then they are teaching a different Jesus BA.
Okay, I see that you have reverted to railing against the Mormons and the JWs, and I agree that the Mormons are not Christians, and from what Watcher wrote the JWs probably are not either (although I will check with them about the Archangel Michael, etc.).
But you people on this forum are not railing against Mormons and JWs, you are railing against bornagain saved Christians who generally are not aware of this CBBS nor participate on this CBBS and who cannot defend themselves here; that is completely different than railing against Mormons or New Age or perhaps JWs.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
IP: Logged |
|
|
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
|
posted
From Jim, ie ToBeContinued:
Just a side note -
Joel Osteen teaches all of these things and much more - I find it interesting that he is referred to as false -
I have asked this before, but to no avail - please "Caretaker", give me an example of "FALSE" teaching of Joel - and please DO NOT refer to the interview commentary he retracted, or give quotes from heresy hunter web sites -
And this request is for Caretaker only - I know a couple of you can copy and paste form all kinds of heresy hunter pages, I am only interested in Caretakers response since here referred to Joel...
I want to know your own, personal experience, if you have any, with him.
Thanks!!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Joel Osteen:
1) Lack of sound Biblical knowledge.
2) Inherited his father's ministry without calling or Biblical training.
3) WOF and Positive Confession.
4) A presentation of Christian entertainment rather than Biblical teaching and sound exegesis.
This paragraph sums it up:
As much as Joel no doubt believes the growth they’ve experienced is due to the blessing of God it really boils down to three simple things, which have nothing to do with God at all: (1) his father’s legacy and an already existing mega-church; (2) Joel’s slick marketing abilities; (3) a biblically errant, but hugely popular message which appeals to the masses seeking to have their ears tickled and experience a “good time” in church. Please pray for Joel Osteen, like it or not, he currently has a tremendous impact on many people. Pray the Lord open his eyes to biblical truth and may he take as bold a stand to expose error.
An example of Positive Confession, which Joel Osteen teaches:
http://www.watchman.org/reltop/posconf.htm
In The Tongue, a Creative Force (1976), positive confessionist Charles Capps, teaches that there are powerful "spiritual" words. Such words, which are ordinary words, can under certain circumstances, become vehicles for creative or supernatural power.
When "faith-filled" spiritual words are spoken (as words of power), they can alter the physical and spiritual world. Capps says, "You see there is more to it than just saying it. The words must originate from the inner man where spiritual power is released through words."
He goes on to state that "spirit words can control both the spirit world and the physical world. Because the words themselves have power, they will work for either God or man in the same manner." He goes on:
"The spirit of man is not of this world, it is of the spirit world. The creative ability of man comes through his spirit. He speaks spirit words that work in the world of the spirit. They will also dominate the physical world. He breathes spirit life into God's Word and it becomes a living substance, working for him as it worked for God in the beginning. These spirit words dominate the natural world" (p. 117-118).
What Capps is alluding to in the above statement is his teaching that since God, "by His faith" (using words) spoke this physical world into existence; the believer, using faith, can do the same. That is, the believer can speak things into existence. However, God's word is already "quick and powerful" (Hebrews 4:12), and it is referred to as the "Word of Life" (Phillipians 2:16). It is not necessary to activate it by speaking words of faith as though it were asleep or dead! Rather, it is by hearing the "living" word that one is brought to salvation through faith in Christ. (Romans 10:17)
A number of the prosperity teachers believe that the spiritual world controls and continually forms the physical world. So, if one can learn to control the spiritual world, then he can learn to control the physical world as well. This teaching then becomes the foundation for securing individual prosperity.
That is why in Releasing the Ability of God, Capps states, "You can have what you say! (because) the powerful force of the spiritual world that creates the circumstances around us is controlled by the words of the mouth. This force comes from inside us; the confession of our mouth will cause you to possess it" (pp. 98-99, parenthesis mine). This is why he teaches, "Discipline your vocabulary," and "today your word is god over your circumstances" (pp. 101-104).
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"See the Bible says that we can grow in favor," said Osteen in his sermon "Increasing in Favor" (available in RealAudio at http://www.lakewood.cc/a_v_library.htm).
"I believe one of the main ways that we grow in favor is by declaring it. It’s not enough to just read it it’s not enough to just believe it. You’ve got to speak it out. Your words have creative power. And one of the primary ways we release our faith is through our words. And there is a divine connection between you declaring God’s favor and you seeing God’s favor manifest in your life…You’ve got to give life to your faith by speaking it out."
This is how the apostles of prosperity teach the blind how to be Favor Minded instead of Godly Minded
http://cultlink.com/ar/osteen.htm
In keeping with the erroneous idea of using some positive thinking to get what you want in life, Osteen preaches the Kenneth Hagin/Charles Capps idea that we can get what we want from God by our faith-filled words. This entire sermon was on how as a child of God we should be receiving "preferential treatment" by everyone. He testified about how he had been pulled over a couple of times for speeding but when the officer saw his last name was Osteen, no ticket was issued. He said the same can happen for every Christian who wakes up declaring they have God’s favor. By following this method Osteen says he has been able to get the best parking spot in a crowded parking lot, a first class seat on a crowded airplane with no boarding pass, and priority seating at restaurants.
This is a far cry from what the treatment the Bible says true believers will receive from the world. Jesus warned in John 15:18-19, "If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you."
The Bible also seems to quote these new prosperity "Christians" word for word in Revelation 3:17 -- "I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing." But Jesus responds, "you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked."
And yet that is the cry of the prosperity gospel -- one whose god is the goods of this world -- what the Bible calls "lovers of mammon." The apostle John in his first epistle reiterates his warning against chasing after this world’s favor:
"Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him" 1 John 2:15.
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
|
posted
BA:
I don't know what books you are reading, but the book I'm reading has only one Jesus and that is Jesus of Nazareth. [Bible] Where do you get the idea that there is more than one Jesus, that you say, "which Jesus they believe in"?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What do the Jehovah's Witnesses Teach?
1. There is one God in one person, Make Sure of All Things, p 188.
2. There is no Trinity, Let God be True, p. 100-101; Make Sure of All Things, p.386.
3. The Holy Spirit is a force, not alive, Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp.
406-407.
4. The Holy Spirit is God's impersonal active force, The Watchtower, June 1, 1952,
p. 24.
5. Jehovah's first creation was his 'only-begotten Son'. . . was used by Jehovah in
creating all other things", Aid to Bible Understanding, pp. 390-391.
6. Jesus was Michael the archangel who became a man, The Watchtower, May 15,
1963, p. 307; The New World, 284.
7. Jesus was only a perfect man, not God in flesh, Reasoning from the Scriptures,
1985, pp. 306.
8. Jesus did not rise from the dead in his physical body, Awake! July 22, 1973, p. 4.
9. Jesus was raised "not a human creature, but a spirit." Let God be True, p. 276.
10. Jesus was born again, The Watchtower, Nov. 15, 1954, p. 682.
11. Jesus did not die on a cross but on a stake, Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985,
pp. 89-90.
12. Jesus began his invisible rule over the earth in 1914, The Truth Shall Make You Free,
p. 300.
13. Jesus' ransom sacrifice did not include Adam, Let God be True, p. 119.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mormons:
Jesus
1. The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus, (Mormon Doctrine, page 129.)
2. Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163; Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15.)
3. Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 247, 1856.)
4. "Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).
5. "The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8: p. 115).
6. "Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine," by Bruce McConkie, p. 547).
7. "Christ Not Begotten of Holy Ghost ...Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God!" (Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith, 1954, 1:18).
8. "Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh ..." (First Presidency and Council of the Twelve, 1916, God the Father, compiled by Gordon Allred, pg. 150)
# Devil, the
1. The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus "in the morning of pre-existence," (Mormon Doctrine, page 192.)
2. Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163.)
3. A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus' plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to "deny men their agency and to dethrone god." (Mormon Doctrine, page 193; Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, page 8.)
# God
1. God used to be a man on another planet, Mormon Doctrine, p. 321. Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, Vol 5, pp. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol 2, p. 345, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333.)
2. "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s..." (D&C 130:22).
3. God is in the form of a man, (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3.)
4. "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345
5. God the Father had a Father, (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 476; Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 19; Milton Hunter, First Council of the Seventy, Gospel through the Ages, p. 104-105.)
6. God resides near a star called Kolob, (Pearl of Great Price, pages 34-35; Mormon Doctrine, p. 428.)
7. God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus, (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, p. 218, 1857; vol. 8, p. 115.) - This one is disputed among many Mormons and not always 'officially' taught and believed. Nevertheless, Young, the 2nd prophet of the Mormon church taught it.
8. "Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
When they teach contrary to the Word. When they wrest scriptures to validate false doctrine. When they teach Jesus was the arch-angel Michael. When they teach that Jesus was born-again in hell. When a Jesus is taught who is contrary to the Lord Jesus Christ as revealed in His Word, then they are teaching a different Jesus BA.
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
ToBeContinued
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
1.) God was manifest in the flesh
2.)Jesus who was God manifest in the flesh had not sin and did not sin and by HIs death in the flesh destroyed sin in the flesh.
3. Jesus was born of a virgin by the Holy Spirit, He was crucified,shedding his sinless blood as a propitation for the sin of the just and the unjust, died and was buried and rose on the third day the hope of our also rising. He ascended into heaven and is seated now at the right hand of the Father and He is one day returning personally to the earth.
4.)All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
5.) Love one another as Jesus loved you
6.) God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosover should believe should not perish but have ever lasting life.
7.) Ye must be born again, by the Holy Spirit and sealed unto the day of redemption.
8.) there is therefor no condemnation for those who There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
9.)they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Just a side note -
Joel Osteen teaches all of these things and much more - I find it interesting that he is referred to as false -
I have asked this before, but to no avail - please "Caretaker", give me an example of "FALSE" teaching of Joel - and please DO NOT refer to the interview commentary he retracted, or give quotes from heresy hunter web sites -
And this request is for Caretaker only - I know a couple of you can copy and paste form all kinds of heresy hunter pages, I am only interested in Caretakers response since here referred to Joel...
I want to know your own, personal experience, if you have any, with him.
Thanks!!
IP: Logged |
|
|
trafield
Advanced Member
Member # 5358
|
posted
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
**sigh**
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
Caretaker writes quote:
Do you think it might matter which Jesus they believe in, BA?
I don't know what books you are reading, but the book I'm reading has only one Jesus and that is Jesus of Nazareth. ![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif) Where do you get the idea that there is more than one Jesus, that you say, "which Jesus they believe in"?
BORN AGAIN
IP: Logged |
|
|
Pleasemaranatha
Advanced Member
Member # 5150
|
posted
Dear HisGrace,
I have always looked forward to reading your posts. I hope you continue to post in the future as The Lord gives you nudge.........if HE does. Please don't be discouraged you have touched many hearts with your posts.
YOU ARE LOVED !!!!!!!
--------------------
My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning. Psalms 130 verse 6
Joyce
Posts: 308 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
|
posted
I will perhaps give a testimony about what legalism does to hurt people, but I don't feel quite ready as it is very personal.
Let me say this: I asked Jesus into my heart at age 13.
I grew up in an abusive household with parents that are legalists. They sent me to a church that was legalist. In the 60's and 70's no one hardly reported or helped children living in abusive situations.
I finally was able to realize after all these years, that as a Christian I was Resisting evil from my family. Because I was resisiting evil, I thought I was evil, even though I was born again.
Jesus said we would go through trials and tribulations and that ones' enemies would be those of their own household.
Legalists say I was just tormented because I couldn't forgive my family. The Spirit says, if you have anything against someone to go to them and bring it up. You see we can't forgive unless it comes out in the open.
God's Holy Spirit takes one through the process to forgive when we ask. Legalists demand one forgives his abuser instantly and cover up their sins. I'm talking about abusers who deny they abuse and believe lies, like an alcoholic, they are blinded to truth of their own actions, and cast blame upon the one who confronts them. They can't take responsibility for their own behavior, so they blame someone else.
The Joyce Meyers and Ken Copelands and others who are charismatic helped opened my eyes to LOve of God and away from legalistic rote.
Yes we are to forgive others even if they sin against us 7 x 70 daily. But they other part is we are obligated to tell them what they are doing that is hurting us. That part may be easier with a friend or co-worker, but not as easy when it is a person over us in some type of authority.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
quote:
The basic fundamental is the CROSS of CHRIST.
Jesus the Lamb of God died so all men might live and have eternal life.
Repent and receive the Lamb. Receive the Holy Spirit. Walk in Faith. Love God with your whole heart,soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Repent of your sins and follow Christ daily. Worship God in Spirit and in truth.
Those are the fundamentals of the Gospel.
I'm sure you have lots more fundamentals. That is what I call legalism.
I would add to that these fundamentals
1.) God was manifest in the flesh
2.)Jesus who was God manifest in the flesh had not sin and did not sin and by HIs death in the flesh destroyed sin in the flesh.
3. Jesus was born of a virgin by the Holy Spirit, He was crucified,shedding his sinless blood as a propitation for the sin of the just and the unjust, died and was buried and rose on the third day the hope of our also rising. He ascended into heaven and is seated now at the right hand of the Father and He is one day returning personally to the earth.
4.)All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
5.) Love one another as Jesus loved you
6.) God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosover should believe should not perish but have ever lasting life.
7.) Ye must be born again, by the Holy Spirit and sealed unto the day of redemption.
8.) there is therefor no condemnation for those who There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
9.)they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Does that make me a legalist?
No these are the same fundamentals I just outlined, except for #9, #8, which are not needed to be born again, but are part of our growth in Christ.
When I Called Jesus the Lamb of God, that included the Virgin birth and and that God manifested in the Flesh.
A person can be born again and saved without even knowing all those details mean. A person can be saved even if they aren't concentrating on the Virgin birth when they repent and ask Christ to be their Savior. After a person is saved, they do grow in their knoweldge of Christ by the scriptures.
When God calls your name and you are willing, all you need to do is KNOW you are going to hell without a Savior. Desire to repent and walk a different way with Christ and call on the name of Jesus to come into your life.
When the Cross is preached and the Holy Spirit is working on a person to "hear it" and "believe it" That person will know in their spirit that IT is God. They might not know or understand about sanctification, or how many prophecies Jesus fulfilled in the Old Testament, or know how many years Jesus spent on the earth. But they Do KNOW Jesus was perfect and the Son of God and He died for them, and He rose again from the grave to be the King.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
|
posted
To HisGrace:
1) You were one of those who desired that all studies of deception and heresy be moved from the Bible Study forum to the Exposing forum so that you would not have to be exposed to it.
2) You continue to enter the Exposing forum to defend any false teacher from Benny Hinn to Joel Osteen, and to seek to undermine the credibility of anyone speaking-out against the horrendous deception in the Church.
3) Deception is like an abcess, a wound which is filled with putrid pus, and not easily discernable with blinded eye. The poison is infiltrating the surrounding cell tissue, and if left untreated, or covered-up will continue to infect the Body and eventually kill through blood-poisoning. It has to be "lanced". the wound opened-up and exposed in order for the poison to be drained-out and healing enter-in.
4) The poison is sheer ugly, evil with a horrible stench in the Body. You can make all the protestations and declare, "that if you don't play nice I am going to pick-up my toys and go home", but you won't change the need for poison control one iota, nor the posts of those who have such a heart for the Word and desire for the Truth.
The trenches are ugly, the face of the enemy has a broad smile and warm personae, a false mask which conceals sheer putrid evil, and is leading so many into the dark pit of destruction, on a multitude of fronts.
You can be part of the cure, or you can continue to be part of the problem. One can enable heresy to proliferate, to seek to cover-over the festering wounds of deception with the broad brush of "sweetness and light", or one can "lance" through the layers of deception and allow the wound to be exposed, the abscess drained, and healing to begin.
It will never be sweetness and light in the trenches, but Praise God His Light will pierce through the darkness, will break asunder the shackles and will set captives free.
Romans 8:
35: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36: As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37: Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38: For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
|
posted
BA:
No, items 1 thru 9 do not make you a legalist, but neither are they needed to be saved. Only this is apparently necessary to believe and also to announce with one's mouth on a regular basis (Romans 10:9-101):
1 John 5:5
Who is he that overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
1 John 5:13
These things have I written to you who believe on the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Romans 10:9
That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.
As far as I can see, only these things are needful to be saved:
"to believe that Jesus is the Son of God" mentioned in the Old Testament of Israel.
And "to believe that God has raised Jesus from the dead".
We should not add anything more to this, should we, to be saved?
Are we then not talking only about rewards?
How important are rewards?
Are rewards important enough to get angry about with another saved brother or sister?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Romans 10:
9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14: How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15: And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16: But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Do you think it might matter which Jesus they believe in, BA?
Do you think it might matter if they were to put their faith in a "Jesus" not true to the Bible?
If one is placing their faith and trust in a Jesus contrary to the Word, is that faith true or false BA?
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
I am not sure what that has to do with this thread, but at some point BA we must go beyond being saved to growing up into Christ. As I recall the false teachings that have been spoken against are not teachings of how to be saved, but are teachings about either living the saved life... or they are about the very nature of Christ and so I am not sure that I understand your point.
As to getting angry with a brother or sister... I am angry with no one and I dont know anyone who is angry with anyone.
I certainly am not angry with White Eagle even if she thinks I am legalistic or too fundamental. I recognize that she and I do not have unity of faith, but I believe that we have unity of Spirit and we can agree to disagree and I dont think that it hurts either of our feelings. I know that I can say that for myself anyway. I fully understand where she is coming from and probably even how she got there even in the places where I dont agree with her. Besides, she knows I am not really a Grinch, even when I wear my Grinch suit!! ![[wiggle7]](graemlins/wiggle7.gif)
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
sister helpforhomeschoolers writes quote:
Does that make me a legalist?
No, items 1 thru 9 do not make you a legalist, but neither are they needed to be saved. Only this is apparently necessary to believe and also to announce with one's mouth on a regular basis (Romans 10:9-101):
1 John 5:5
Who is he that overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
1 John 5:13
These things have I written to you who believe on the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Romans 10:9
That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.
As far as I can see, only these things are needful to be saved:
"to believe that Jesus is the Son of God" mentioned in the Old Testament of Israel.
And "to believe that God has raised Jesus from the dead".
We should not add anything more to this, should we, to be saved?
Are we then not talking only about rewards?
How important are rewards?
Are rewards important enough to get angry about with another saved brother or sister?
bless the LORD YHWH of Israel. I am BORN AGAIN in the USA by the ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) of Yeshua-Jesus of Israel/Judah.
IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
quote:
The basic fundamental is the CROSS of CHRIST.
Jesus the Lamb of God died so all men might live and have eternal life.
Repent and receive the Lamb. Receive the Holy Spirit. Walk in Faith. Love God with your whole heart,soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Repent of your sins and follow Christ daily. Worship God in Spirit and in truth.
Those are the fundamentals of the Gospel.
I'm sure you have lots more fundamentals. That is what I call legalism.
I would add to that these fundamentals
1.) God was manifest in the flesh
2.)Jesus who was God manifest in the flesh had not sin and did not sin and by HIs death in the flesh destroyed sin in the flesh.
3. Jesus was born of a virgin by the Holy Spirit, He was crucified,shedding his sinless blood as a propitation for the sin of the just and the unjust, died and was buried and rose on the third day the hope of our also rising. He ascended into heaven and is seated now at the right hand of the Father and He is one day returning personally to the earth.
4.)All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
5.) Love one another as Jesus loved you
6.) God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosover should believe should not perish but have ever lasting life.
7.) Ye must be born again, by the Holy Spirit and sealed unto the day of redemption.
8.) there is therefor no condemnation for those who There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
9.)they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Does that make me a legalist?
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
we must always depend on grace, especially me.
dear sister HisGrace, it is best in life never to make ultimatums with oneself; often later after the upset has died down, one wished to be able to return to that which was delicious about CBBS.
I'll admit that you have been whacked a bit over this last month, but dear sister, being purged is not all bad. It is painful when I feel rejected.
I love you. If you can't stand the water in this pool, go over to the pool that is a little cooler, the one with the temperature that you love. I will be there most of the time too.
I like coming to this hot pool now and then. But I used to go to a hot springs which had 3 pools, one of which was the "crab-cooker" into which an adult human could stretch out fully and "get red all over." sister HisGrace, this "exposing false teaching" forum is your "crab-cooker", it makes you "get red all over". ![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif) ![[Mad]](mad.gif) ![[mad2]](graemlins/mad2.gif) ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif)
So sister HisGrace, do not overreact with an "I'm leaving this BBS" type of self-ultimatum. Is it designed to hurt SoftTouch and hardcore. They would just as soon you stayed out of their forum than contradict them.
So only you are hurt by making self-ultimatums. Do not make them, sister. Come hang out with me on the other forums, but if this "crab-cooker" forum makes you "red", hey, I was never able to stay long in the "crab-cooker" at the hot springs either, and everybody understood. Love you, sister.
BORN AGAIN in the USA
IP: Logged |
|
|
hardcore
Advanced Member
Member # 4492
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
The basic fundamental is the CROSS of CHRIST.
Jesus the Lamb of God died so all men might live and have eternal life. Repent and receive the Lamb. Receive the Holy Spirit. Walk in Faith. Love God with your whole heart,soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Repent of your sins and follow Christ daily. Worship God in Spirit and in truth.
I'm sure you have lots more fundamentals. That is what I call legalism.
I was brought up with legalists, I KNOW first hand the damage they do to people.
Thanks for your explanation.
I am now curious as to why you are sure that I have "lots more fundamentals". I don't think I disagree with your definition of the fundamentals, and I don't think there's a legalistic bone in my body.
What makes you think that?
Posts: 627 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by hardcore:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
I didn't gain that spiritual understanding and stronger walk with God through legalists' type teachings. It came from God's Spirit.
Could you please explain to me what types of teaching you refer to as legalist? It seems that the "legalist" label and the "fundamentalist" label go hand in hand for many.
I've seen you mention Christian fundamentalism in what appeared to be a negative manner. To me, this is a world view. It is what we see in the media and from politicians on a regular basis.
A true born again Christian who believes in the fundamentals of the bible with no additional man-made rules or traditions, is indeed a fundamentalist. This is a good. It's what we all should be. It is the world who has turned the definition upside down and given it a bad name.
From an earlier post by HFHS:
"Those of us who do take a stand are called misguided zealots, fanatics and even fundamentalists, like being a fundamentalist is a bad thing. I often wonder if people who use the word fundamentalist for negative connotations even realize the great honor they are bestowing upon the Christians they are labeling. Every single person of God in the Bible and early Christian martyrs and saints, including the Apostles held fundamental beliefs. A fundamentalist believes the Scripture is God-inspired and the true Word of God and are doers of The Word of God. Even before the Scripture in the form as we know it today, there was the Torah. And before the Torah, there were the actual tablets of the Ten Commandments, given to Moses directly from God, Himself. It was The Word of God that brought forth the creation of the world. The Word of God is ageless."
If you haven't read this post, you really should. It's titled "Perverting the Gospel of Christ", posted in "Exposing" on March 23.
I have nothing against preaching the fundamentals. And Yes the world uses the term fundamentalist quite loosely.
The basic fundamental is the CROSS of CHRIST.
Jesus the Lamb of God died so all men might live and have eternal life.
Repent and receive the Lamb. Receive the Holy Spirit. Walk in Faith. Love God with your whole heart,soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Repent of your sins and follow Christ daily. Worship God in Spirit and in truth.
Those are the fundamentals of the Gospel.
I'm sure you have lots more fundamentals. That is what I call legalism.
I was brought up with legalists, I KNOW first hand the damage they do to people.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
