quote:

---

Originally posted by HisGrace: Obviously my words are falling on deaf ears, and I feel led to spend another season away from the 'Exposing False Teaching Forum.'

I have proven on different occasions that lies have been printed about some of these preachers.
Be careful not to buy into these lies. Is the devil deceiving you?

This material is being printed in massive numbers on this Board. Are people really using careful discretion when they press these buttons willy-nilly? This could be a very dangerous practise.

Proverbs 19:5
A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who pours out lies will not go free.

---

Many will be happy to know that I have decided to leave BBS. It has been said that I will not admit I am wrong. If one is passionate about defending The Truth, naturally they are not going print something that they believe is a lie. Does that mean that others are printing stuff that they are ready to admit is the untruth? I don't think so.
 

---

Posted by redkermit (Member # 4059) on :
 
HisGrace,

I think it would be a shame if you left this BBS. I'm not going to beg you to stay, as you should do whatever you feel the Lord is leading you to do. But, I do think you have much valued contributions at times. Perhaps you may want to consider just avoiding certain areas of the board and not just leave all together.

God bless.
 

---

Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 
His Grace

I sincerely hope you do not leave. Your insights and posts are making for a better balance.

I agree with you on your stands and feel that you have fought the good fight for dividing the Word of truth.

Please keep in touch with me if you do leave.

Strongholds are falling in my life like dominoes this week. I didn't gain that spiritual understanding and stronger walk with God through legalists' type teachings. It came from God's Spirit.
 

---

Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
I didn't gain that spiritual understanding and stronger walk with God through legalists' type teachings. It came from God's Spirit.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by hardcore:

quote:

---

Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
I didn't gain that spiritual understanding and stronger walk with God through legalists' type teachings. It came from God's Spirit.

---

Could you please explain to me what types of teaching you refer to as legalist? It seems that the "legalist" label and the "fundamentalist" label go hand in hand for many.

I've seen you mention Christian fundamentalism in what appeared to be a negative manner. To me, this is a world view. It is what we see in the media and from politicians on a regular basis.

A true born again Christian who believes in the fundamentals of the bible with no additional man-made rules or traditions, is indeed a fundamentalist. This is a good. It's what we all should be. It is the world who has turned the definition upside down and given it a bad name.

From an earlier post by HFHS:

"Those of us who do take a stand are called misguided zealots, fanatics and even fundamentalists, like being a fundamentalist is a bad thing. I often wonder if people who use the word fundamentalist for negative connotations even realize the great honor they are bestowing upon the Christians they are labeling. Every single person of God in the Bible and early Christian martyrs and saints, including the Apostles held fundamental beliefs. A fundamentalist believes the Scripture is God-inspired and the true Word of God and are doers of The Word of God. Even before the Scripture in the form as we know it today, there was the Torah. And before the Torah, there were the actual tablets of the Ten Commandments, given to Moses directly from God, Himself. It was The Word of God that brought forth the creation of the world. The Word of God is ageless."

If you haven't read this post, you really should. It's titled "Perverting the Gospel of Christ", posted in "Exposing" on March 23.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by WhiteEagle:

The basic fundamental is the CROSS of CHRIST.
Jesus the Lamb of God died so all men might live and have eternal life. Repent and receive the Lamb. Receive the Holy Spirit. Walk in Faith. Love God with your whole heart,soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Repent of your sins and follow Christ daily. Worship God in Spirit and in truth.

I'm sure you have lots more fundamentals. That is what I call legalism.

I was brought up with legalists, I KNOW first hand the damage they do to people.

---

Thanks for your explanation.

I am now curious as to why you are sure that I have "lots more fundamentals". I don't think I disagree with your definition of the fundamentals, and I don't think there's a legalistic bone in my body.

What makes you think that?
 

---

Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
we must always depend on grace, especially me.

dear sister HisGrace, it is best in life never to make ultimatums with oneself; often later after the upset has died down, one wished to be able to return to that which was delicious about CBBS.

I'll admit that you have been whacked a bit over this last month, but dear sister, being purged is not all bad. It is painful when I feel rejected.

I love you. If you can't stand the water in this pool, go over to the pool that is a little cooler, the one with the temperature that you love. I will be there most of the time too.

I like coming to this hot pool now and then. But I used to go to a hot springs which had 3 pools, one of which was the "crab-cooker" into which an adult human could stretch out fully and "get red all over." sister HisGrace, this "exposing false teaching" forum is your "crab-cooker", it makes you "get red all over".

So sister HisGrace, do not overreact with an "I'm leaving this BBS" type of self-ultimatum. Is it designed to hurt SoftTouch and hardcore. They would just as soon you stayed out of their forum than contradict them.

So only you are hurt by making self-ultimatums. Do not make them, sister. Come hang out with me on the other forums, but if this "crab-cooker" forum makes you "red", hey, I was never able to stay long in the "crab-cooker" at the hot springs either, and everybody understood. Love you, sister.

BORN AGAIN in the USA
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 

quote:

---

The basic fundamental is the CROSS of CHRIST.
Jesus the Lamb of God died so all men might live and have eternal life.
Repent and receive the Lamb. Receive the Holy Spirit. Walk in Faith. Love God with your whole heart,soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Repent of your sins and follow Christ daily. Worship God in Spirit and in truth.

Those are the fundamentals of the Gospel.

I'm sure you have lots more fundamentals. That is what I call legalism.

---

quote:

---

Does that make me a legalist?

---

No, items 1 thru 9 do not make you a legalist, but neither are they needed to be saved. Only this is apparently necessary to believe and also to announce with one's mouth on a regular basis (Romans 10:9-101):

1 John 5:5
Who is he that overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 John 5:13
These things have I written to you who believe on the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Romans 10:9
That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.

As far as I can see, only these things are needful to be saved:

"to believe that Jesus is the Son of God" mentioned in the Old Testament of Israel.

And "to believe that God has raised Jesus from the dead".

We should not add anything more to this, should we, to be saved?

Are we then not talking only about rewards?

How important are rewards?

Are rewards important enough to get angry about with another saved brother or sister?

bless the LORD YHWH of Israel. I am BORN AGAIN in the USA by the of Yeshua-Jesus of Israel/Judah.
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
I am not sure what that has to do with this thread, but at some point BA we must go beyond being saved to growing up into Christ. As I recall the false teachings that have been spoken against are not teachings of how to be saved, but are teachings about either living the saved life... or they are about the very nature of Christ and so I am not sure that I understand your point.

As to getting angry with a brother or sister... I am angry with no one and I dont know anyone who is angry with anyone.

I certainly am not angry with White Eagle even if she thinks I am legalistic or too fundamental. I recognize that she and I do not have unity of faith, but I believe that we have unity of Spirit and we can agree to disagree and I dont think that it hurts either of our feelings. I know that I can say that for myself anyway. I fully understand where she is coming from and probably even how she got there even in the places where I dont agree with her. Besides, she knows I am not really a Grinch, even when I wear my Grinch suit!!
 

---

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
BA:
No, items 1 thru 9 do not make you a legalist, but neither are they needed to be saved. Only this is apparently necessary to believe and also to announce with one's mouth on a regular basis (Romans 10:9-101):

1 John 5:5
Who is he that overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 John 5:13
These things have I written to you who believe on the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Romans 10:9
That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.

As far as I can see, only these things are needful to be saved:

"to believe that Jesus is the Son of God" mentioned in the Old Testament of Israel.

And "to believe that God has raised Jesus from the dead".

We should not add anything more to this, should we, to be saved?

Are we then not talking only about rewards?

How important are rewards?

Are rewards important enough to get angry about with another saved brother or sister?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Romans 10:
9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14: How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15: And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16: But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Do you think it might matter which Jesus they believe in, BA?

Do you think it might matter if they were to put their faith in a "Jesus" not true to the Bible?

If one is placing their faith and trust in a Jesus contrary to the Word, is that faith true or false BA?
 

---

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
To HisGrace:

1) You were one of those who desired that all studies of deception and heresy be moved from the Bible Study forum to the Exposing forum so that you would not have to be exposed to it.

2) You continue to enter the Exposing forum to defend any false teacher from Benny Hinn to Joel Osteen, and to seek to undermine the credibility of anyone speaking-out against the horrendous deception in the Church.

3) Deception is like an abcess, a wound which is filled with putrid pus, and not easily discernable with blinded eye. The poison is infiltrating the surrounding cell tissue, and if left untreated, or covered-up will continue to infect the Body and eventually kill through blood-poisoning. It has to be "lanced". the wound opened-up and exposed in order for the poison to be drained-out and healing enter-in.

4) The poison is sheer ugly, evil with a horrible stench in the Body. You can make all the protestations and declare, "that if you don't play nice I am going to pick-up my toys and go home", but you won't change the need for poison control one iota, nor the posts of those who have such a heart for the Word and desire for the Truth.

The trenches are ugly, the face of the enemy has a broad smile and warm personae, a false mask which conceals sheer putrid evil, and is leading so many into the dark pit of destruction, on a multitude of fronts.

You can be part of the cure, or you can continue to be part of the problem. One can enable heresy to proliferate, to seek to cover-over the festering wounds of deception with the broad brush of "sweetness and light", or one can "lance" through the layers of deception and allow the wound to be exposed, the abscess drained, and healing to begin.

It will never be sweetness and light in the trenches, but Praise God His Light will pierce through the darkness, will break asunder the shackles and will set captives free.

Romans 8:
35: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36: As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37: Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38: For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

---

Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:

quote:

---

The basic fundamental is the CROSS of CHRIST.
Jesus the Lamb of God died so all men might live and have eternal life.
Repent and receive the Lamb. Receive the Holy Spirit. Walk in Faith. Love God with your whole heart,soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Repent of your sins and follow Christ daily. Worship God in Spirit and in truth.

Those are the fundamentals of the Gospel.

I'm sure you have lots more fundamentals. That is what I call legalism.

---

I would add to that these fundamentals

1.) God was manifest in the flesh

2.)Jesus who was God manifest in the flesh had not sin and did not sin and by HIs death in the flesh destroyed sin in the flesh.

3. Jesus was born of a virgin by the Holy Spirit, He was crucified,shedding his sinless blood as a propitation for the sin of the just and the unjust, died and was buried and rose on the third day the hope of our also rising. He ascended into heaven and is seated now at the right hand of the Father and He is one day returning personally to the earth.

4.)All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

5.) Love one another as Jesus loved you

6.) God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosover should believe should not perish but have ever lasting life.

7.) Ye must be born again, by the Holy Spirit and sealed unto the day of redemption.

8.) there is therefor no condemnation for those who There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

9.)they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Does that make me a legalist?

---

No these are the same fundamentals I just outlined, except for #9, #8, which are not needed to be born again, but are part of our growth in Christ.

When I Called Jesus the Lamb of God, that included the Virgin birth and and that God manifested in the Flesh.

A person can be born again and saved without even knowing all those details mean. A person can be saved even if they aren't concentrating on the Virgin birth when they repent and ask Christ to be their Savior. After a person is saved, they do grow in their knoweldge of Christ by the scriptures.

When God calls your name and you are willing, all you need to do is KNOW you are going to hell without a Savior. Desire to repent and walk a different way with Christ and call on the name of Jesus to come into your life.

When the Cross is preached and the Holy Spirit is working on a person to "hear it" and "believe it" That person will know in their spirit that IT is God. They might not know or understand about sanctification, or how many prophecies Jesus fulfilled in the Old Testament, or know how many years Jesus spent on the earth. But they Do KNOW Jesus was perfect and the Son of God and He died for them, and He rose again from the grave to be the King.
 

---

Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 
I will perhaps give a testimony about what legalism does to hurt people, but I don't feel quite ready as it is very personal.

Let me say this: I asked Jesus into my heart at age 13.

I grew up in an abusive household with parents that are legalists. They sent me to a church that was legalist. In the 60's and 70's no one hardly reported or helped children living in abusive situations.

I finally was able to realize after all these years, that as a Christian I was Resisting evil from my family. Because I was resisiting evil, I thought I was evil, even though I was born again.

Jesus said we would go through trials and tribulations and that ones' enemies would be those of their own household.

Legalists say I was just tormented because I couldn't forgive my family. The Spirit says, if you have anything against someone to go to them and bring it up. You see we can't forgive unless it comes out in the open.


God's Holy Spirit takes one through the process to forgive when we ask. Legalists demand one forgives his abuser instantly and cover up their sins. I'm talking about abusers who deny they abuse and believe lies, like an alcoholic, they are blinded to truth of their own actions, and cast blame upon the one who confronts them. They can't take responsibility for their own behavior, so they blame someone else.

The Joyce Meyers and Ken Copelands and others who are charismatic helped opened my eyes to LOve of God and away from legalistic rote.


Yes we are to forgive others even if they sin against us 7 x 70 daily. But they other part is we are obligated to tell them what they are doing that is hurting us. That part may be easier with a friend or co-worker, but not as easy when it is a person over us in some type of authority.
 

---

Posted by Pleasemaranatha (Member # 5150) on :
 
Dear HisGrace,

I have always looked forward to reading your posts. I hope you continue to post in the future as The Lord gives you nudge.........if HE does. Please don't be discouraged you have touched many hearts with your posts.

YOU ARE LOVED !!!!!!!
 

---

Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
Caretaker writes

quote:

---

Do you think it might matter which Jesus they believe in, BA?

---

I don't know what books you are reading, but the book I'm reading has only one Jesus and that is Jesus of Nazareth. Where do you get the idea that there is more than one Jesus, that you say, "which Jesus they believe in"?

BORN AGAIN
 

---

Posted by trafield (Member # 5358) on :
 

**sigh**
 

---

Posted by ToBeContinued (Member # 4639) on :
 

quote:

---

1.) God was manifest in the flesh

2.)Jesus who was God manifest in the flesh had not sin and did not sin and by HIs death in the flesh destroyed sin in the flesh.

3. Jesus was born of a virgin by the Holy Spirit, He was crucified,shedding his sinless blood as a propitation for the sin of the just and the unjust, died and was buried and rose on the third day the hope of our also rising. He ascended into heaven and is seated now at the right hand of the Father and He is one day returning personally to the earth.

4.)All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

5.) Love one another as Jesus loved you

6.) God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosover should believe should not perish but have ever lasting life.

7.) Ye must be born again, by the Holy Spirit and sealed unto the day of redemption.

8.) there is therefor no condemnation for those who There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

9.)they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

---

quote:

---

When they teach contrary to the Word. When they wrest scriptures to validate false doctrine. When they teach Jesus was the arch-angel Michael. When they teach that Jesus was born-again in hell. When a Jesus is taught who is contrary to the Lord Jesus Christ as revealed in His Word, then they are teaching a different Jesus BA.

---

Okay, I see that you have reverted to railing against the Mormons and the JWs, and I agree that the Mormons are not Christians, and from what Watcher wrote the JWs probably are not either (although I will check with them about the Archangel Michael, etc.).

But you people on this forum are not railing against Mormons and JWs, you are railing against bornagain saved Christians who generally are not aware of this CBBS nor participate on this CBBS and who cannot defend themselves here; that is completely different than railing against Mormons or New Age or perhaps JWs.

God bless, BORN AGAIN
 

---

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
Main Entry: 4rail
Function: intransitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French railler to mock, from Old Provençal ralhar to babble, joke, from (assumed) Vulgar Latin ragulare to bray, from Late Latin ragere to neigh
: to revile or scold in harsh, insolent, or abusive language


BA:
Okay, I see that you have reverted to railing against the Mormons and the JWs, and I agree that the Mormons are not Christians, and from what Watcher wrote the JWs probably are not either (although I will check with them about the Archangel Michael, etc.).

But you people here are not railing against Mormons and JWs, you are railing against bornagain saved Christians who generally do not participate on this CBBS and who cannot defend themselves here; that is completely different than railing against Mormons or New Age or perhaps JWs.

God bless, BORN AGAIN


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

1) The teachers of deception who are leading others astray are teaching in the public forums through their televised programs, books, radio, and multitude of public pulpits. They have many times been confronted with their error and publicly revile and denigrate their detractors,(ie. Benny Hinn and his desire for a Holy Ghost machine gun to shoot-down those who disagree with him, on the public forum of TBN).

These apostles of prosperity who teach another Jesus,(who they teach was tortured by the Devil and born again in Hell), who twist and pervert scripture to substantiate their error and rake-in millions of dollars from the blinded, have many defenders on this forum.

When one places themselves in a position of authority, and their teachings become public so as to influence large numbers, then their theology must be scrutinized. If they are in error, and they refuse correction, then they are to be publicly corrected.

Matt. 18:
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.


David had a very good response to you in his post:

http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=53;t=000115
 

---

Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
Amen Brothers David and Drew, Amen
 

---

Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
But we're mostly just talking rewards here, right, not salvation? The vast majority of the people listening to the preachers/teachers are already saved by the basics of Christianity, so we can only be in rewards territory here.

And while rewards are nice, they're not worth shouting or rebuking each other over and calling them "false teachers" or whatever, as if salvation is at stake.

BORN AGAIN
 

---

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
BA:

But we're mostly just talking rewards here, right, not salvation? The vast majority of the people listening to the preachers/teachers are already saved by the basics of Christianity, so we can only be in rewards territory here.

And while rewards are nice, they're not worth shouting or rebuking each other over and calling them "false teachers" or whatever, as if salvation is at stake.

BORN AGAIN

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Matt. 7:
21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


24: Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26: And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
28: And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
29: For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.


David laid it out pretty well for you, BA, in that other thread. It is the true Gospel which saves through HEART belief, not lip-service through some cotton-candy fluff-filled session of self-esteem feel-goodism.
 

---

Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
Caretaker writes

quote:

---

It is the true Gospel which saves through HEART belief, not lip-service through some cotton-candy fluff-filled session of self-esteem feel-goodism.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
But is it not true that the vast majority of the people in the audience of say, Kenneth Copeland or Joyce Myers, are ALREADY saved ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by wparr:
If you study those verses: secretly introduce; means to lay along side.

So the false teachers lay their destructive heresies along side the Truth or the Gospel (thus contaminating it).

---

quote:

---

Galatians 1: 6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

---

 

---

Posted by ToBeContinued (Member # 4639) on :
 
Source

Recently we have all observed certain bloggers and others on the Internet severely criticizing Joel Osteen, the pastor of Houston's Lakewood Church and rising star in evangelical circles.

Osteen is being subjected to controversy due to the content of his sermons, which critics say emphasize too much psychology and too little Gospel. Some critics have crossed a line and accuse Osteen of being apostate and a false teacher. If you search the net for "Joel Osteen" you can find many of them waving pitchforks and buckets of tar and feathers with Osteen's name on them.

One specifically said that Osteen was "clueless, "evil" and "apostate," stating affirmatively that Osteen was not just one of these things, but "ALL of them" and more.

I say this not to condemn, but simply to illustrate that there are other "diseases" out there besides preaching an incomplete gospel, as some accuse Osteen of. One disease is knowing Christian doctrine a lot more than one knows the living Person of Christ. You can know the Bible and still have very little real growth. Time and again I have seen people who have some Christian knowledge lash out against someone with whom they disagree without ever considering their own spirit first.

Of course, no one here other than myself is guilty of that I am sure -

It amazes me how many people feel free to condemn other Christians personally and by name as if this were a political arena and not the Body of Christ.

Having read Osteen's book I cannot deny that I have been greatly helped by it. Osteen does emphasize positive thinking. But psychology is part of our God-created humanity.

Who is supposed to help us with it? Sigmund Freud? Surely God’s word has something to say about it, and it does. Christians are human and so DO tend to think too negatively.

We DO think about our problems more than the Solution. We DO doubt God's promises. We DO miss out on God's best. Osteen provides tools to break through that negativity. Where does it say that a Christian teacher should not emphasize psychology?

Like I said, if Christian teachers don't do this, to whom shall we go? Worldly psychologists?

One blogger who condemned Osteen wrote in conclusion about him “you will never get to know Jesus listening to him. Never.”

In my experience, this statement is manifestly false. Osteen’s teaching has brought me closer to Jesus by helping me break through those negative barriers in my mind which keep me from Him.

I do not feel I am a shallow Christian. I know the Bible and have studied it for years. I know Christ and him crucified. I believe in the incarnated, crucified, resurrected and ascended Christ. I believe Jesus Christ is God and man and is the sacrifice for the sins of the world and that salvation and a relationship with God is acquired only through believing in this Jesus Christ.

I believe Joel Osteen believes in this Christ as well. Some accuse Osteen of being essentially the same as Anthony Robbins. I have read Robbins. He's a nice man, but he comes from a different place, a different spirit, than Osteen.

The similarities are superficial. There is no power behind Robbins' words. There is behind Osteen's. And according to my discernment, that power is the Spirit of God.

When I read Osteen I feel closer to God and more hopeful that He will do a good work in me.

If Osteen said what he preaches is the be-all and end-all then, yes, he would have a problem. But he doesn't. He clearly says that he feels called to preach the way he does and does not necessarily consider himself an evangelist.

Here is a link link to a Joel Osteen sermon where he clearly preaches the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the hope of the world.

Here is an excerpt:

And see, friends, the good news of Resurrection Sunday, the reason we can celebrate today, is because God gladly, with great joy and pleasure, He accepted the sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. And now no longer do we have sin to hang on us and to drag us down to hell. The price has already been paid once and for all. Isn't that good news?

See, and the Bible says that Jesus obtained an eternal redemption for our sins. One translation says, "an eternal release from our sins." See, friends, we don't have to be redeemed once a year anymore. We have been eternally redeemed not by the blood of bulls and goats, but by the blood--the precious blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

There is no reason to think that Osteen no longer believes this.

You can believe in Christ crucified and still be a negative, vindictive and judging Christian. It is interesting that when I read blogs by self-appointed exposers of false teaching, I more often than not sense an unloving, harsh, judgmental spirit. Why is that?

Could it be that wishing to "out" whomever one thinks is in error and being puffed up with knowledge go hand in hand?


Source
 

---

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
ToBeConbtinbued:

Recently we have all observed certain bloggers and others on the Internet severely criticizing Joel Osteen, the pastor of Houston's Lakewood Church and rising star in evangelical circles.

Osteen is being subjected to controversy due to the content of his sermons, which critics say emphasize too much psychology and too little Gospel. Some critics have crossed a line and accuse Osteen of being apostate and a false teacher. If you search the net for "Joel Osteen" you can find many of them waving pitchforks and buckets of tar and feathers with Osteen's name on them.

One specifically said that Osteen was "clueless, "evil" and "apostate," stating affirmatively that Osteen was not just one of these things, but "ALL of them" and more.

I say this not to condemn, but simply to illustrate that there are other "diseases" out there besides preaching an incomplete gospel, as some accuse Osteen of. One disease is knowing Christian doctrine a lot more than one knows the living Person of Christ. You can know the Bible and still have very little real growth. Time and again I have seen people who have some Christian knowledge lash out against someone with whom they disagree without ever considering their own spirit first.

Of course, no one here other than myself is guilty of that I am sure -

It amazes me how many people feel free to condemn other Christians personally and by name as if this were a political arena and not the Body of Christ.

Having read Osteen's book I cannot deny that I have been greatly helped by it. Osteen does emphasize positive thinking. But psychology is part of our God-created humanity.

Who is supposed to help us with it? Sigmund Freud? Surely God’s word has something to say about it, and it does. Christians are human and so DO tend to think too negatively.

We DO think about our problems more than the Solution. We DO doubt God's promises. We DO miss out on God's best. Osteen provides tools to break through that negativity. Where does it say that a Christian teacher should not emphasize psychology?

Like I said, if Christian teachers don't do this, to whom shall we go? Worldly psychologists?

One blogger who condemned Osteen wrote in conclusion about him “you will never get to know Jesus listening to him. Never.”

In my experience, this statement is manifestly false. Osteen’s teaching has brought me closer to Jesus by helping me break through those negative barriers in my mind which keep me from Him.

I do not feel I am a shallow Christian. I know the Bible and have studied it for years. I know Christ and him crucified. I believe in the incarnated, crucified, resurrected and ascended Christ. I believe Jesus Christ is God and man and is the sacrifice for the sins of the world and that salvation and a relationship with God is acquired only through believing in this Jesus Christ.

I believe Joel Osteen believes in this Christ as well. Some accuse Osteen of being essentially the same as Anthony Robbins. I have read Robbins. He's a nice man, but he comes from a different place, a different spirit, than Osteen.

The similarities are superficial. There is no power behind Robbins' words. There is behind Osteen's. And according to my discernment, that power is the Spirit of God.

When I read Osteen I feel closer to God and more hopeful that He will do a good work in me.

If Osteen said what he preaches is the be-all and end-all then, yes, he would have a problem. But he doesn't. He clearly says that he feels called to preach the way he does and does not necessarily consider himself an evangelist.

Here is a link link to a Joel Osteen sermon where he clearly preaches the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the hope of the world.

Here is an excerpt:

And see, friends, the good news of Resurrection Sunday, the reason we can celebrate today, is because God gladly, with great joy and pleasure, He accepted the sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. And now no longer do we have sin to hang on us and to drag us down to hell. The price has already been paid once and for all. Isn't that good news?

See, and the Bible says that Jesus obtained an eternal redemption for our sins. One translation says, "an eternal release from our sins." See, friends, we don't have to be redeemed once a year anymore. We have been eternally redeemed not by the blood of bulls and goats, but by the blood--the precious blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

There is no reason to think that Osteen no longer believes this.

You can believe in Christ crucified and still be a negative, vindictive and judging Christian. It is interesting that when I read blogs by self-appointed exposers of false teaching, I more often than not sense an unloving, harsh, judgmental spirit. Why is that?

Could it be that wishing to "out" whomever one thinks is in error and being puffed up with knowledge go hand in hand?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I read that apologetics for Osteen on the web yesterday.

It might be helpful to provide the link to the article.
 

---

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
http://www.forgottenword.org/osteen.html

The Concerns

Joel Osteen Master of Marketeering

Joel Osteen has absolutely no biblical training or experience to be a pastor. Charismatic pulpits are filled with people who feel “called” to the pastorate and that is enough for them and those who follow them. They attempt to build congregations on the “strength” of their calling. Some charismatic leaders may go on to some unaccredited “ Bible School ” for a year or two, none (which encompasses a large group of ministers) that we were ever acquainted with attended any legitimate seminary.

Would you allow a surgeon to operate on you because he felt “called” to be a surgeon as a child, but never went on to medical school? Or would you allow someone to build your house who firmly believed God had called him to be an architect yet had never gone on to college to study architectural design? Of course not, it would be the height of foolishness!

Yet millions of professing Christians are more than willing to follow a man (or woman) who says “God” has called them and has supernaturally equipped them to be ministers. These especially anointed men and women have no need to study Church history, hermeneutics, systematic theology and struggle through Greek and Hebrew as other ministers do. They hear directly from God (this is especially true for the sign-gift[7] pastors, most seeker-sensitive churches are led by seminary educated individuals).

So my first main concern is that we have a man in the pulpit of the largest congregation in America , being beamed around the world that has no biblical education or training for the vocation he says he has! To me we have a clear case of the blind leading the blind (read Luke 6:39) with the end result being masses of people falling into the ditch of spiritual ignorance, abuse and/or extremism.

Joel Osteen made the following statement which ought to be enough to drive 1,000’s of people away from his church:

Osteen’s upbeat style is deliberate and authentic. ‘Make church relevant,’ he says. ‘Give them something to be able to take away. I find today people are not looking for theology. There’s a place for it, [But] in your everyday life you need to know how to live.[8]

That statement is loaded with seeker-sensitive “code.” My wife and I left a North American Baptist church of over 1,000 members which had as its acronym “GPARS” which stood for: (1) Grace; (2) People; (3) Authenticity; (4) Relevance and (5) Small groups.

Of course Osteen’s “style” is upbeat, would you expect negativity from a positive confession devotee? No! Deliberate, absolutely, he really believes much of the WOF nonsense his father taught him all his life, not to mention whatever offbeat spirituality he may have gleaned from his two years at Oral Roberts University . Authentic? Without a doubt! What you see is what you get. Joel Osteen is a man without any biblical education but an admitted talent for marketing.

To be a success in marketing you have to know where people itch and scratch it. Or, you have to create a desire in them by creating a hunger for something they currently do not have nor formerly knew they needed. All commercials can be condensed down to one of these two truths.

So to become a mega-church a pastor has to make church relevant. He has to give the people what they want, something that soothes that spiritual itch. In order to be a “success” (i.e. large masses of people and money) pastors must preach unchallenging messages that uplift rather than convict. He must pander to the lowest common denominator and make sure that whatever is taught does not offend anymore at anytime. What we are seeing is really nothing new, it is a simply fulfillment of 2Ti 4:3-4

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

This is exactly where multitudes of people are spiritually today. The above text also helps explain the phenomena of people like Robert Schuller, Rick Warren, Bill Hybels and now, Joel Osteen.

Osteen goes on to say that “I find today that people are not looking for theology.” Well that is obvious because if they were they would not find any sound theology at Lakewood ! Although he does not reveal to the readers where he found this astonishing fact out, it appears the folks he has talked to have no interest in theology.

Lest you think me a bit harsh let me remind you that theology simply means “the knowledge of God.” In essence Osteen has said that people are really not interested in learning about God. Somehow (undoubtedly due to his lack of biblical education) he has made a disconnect between knowing the God of the Bible via sound biblical theology and “knowing how to live.”

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 

---

Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
Caretaker or anyone, Do you think that the majority of the people coming week after week to Joel Osteen's church are saved, or not? I say they are saved on the basics, that they believe Jesus was and is the Son of God of Israel and that the LORD God of Israel raised Jesus from the dead. Those are the basics by which one is saved in Christianity, and on that basis the majority attending Osteen's church are saved, in my opinion.

What do you say?

BORN AGAIN
 

---

Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
The Bible says it is God's place to judge who is Saved and who is not... not ours
 

---

Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
SoftTouch writes

quote:

---

The Bible says it is God's place to judge who is Saved and who is not... not ours

---

how convenient. It's up to God to decide who is saved, but it's up to you to rail endlessly about their rewards?

Revelation 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Is God now going to have a conference with you to find out who is eligible for rewards before the rewards are handed out? I can hear you protest now:

"What??? You are going to give a reward to Joel Osteen? And also rewards to Kenneth and Gloria Copeland??? And to Joyce Myer???? Are you kidding me?!?!? Haven't You read ANYTHING of what we have "faithfully" posted for You on our CBBS about all those false teachers???? I spent YEARS pasting that all in for You!"

Then Jesus answered:

Mark 9:41
For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, verily I say to you, he shall NOT lose his reward.

Just a cup of water!

God bless, BORN AGAIN
 

---

Posted by Pleasemaranatha (Member # 5150) on :
 


THANKS Born AGAIN for that post.
 

---

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
BA:
SoftTouch writes

quote:The Bible says it is God's place to judge who is Saved and who is not... not ours [Wink]

how convenient. It's up to God to decide that, but up to you to revile endlessly about rewards? [Wink]

Revelation 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Is God going to have a conference with you to find out who is eligible for rewards before the rewards are handed out? I can hear you protest now:

"What??? You are going to give a reward to Joel Osteen? And rewards to Kenneth and Gloria Copeland??? Are you kidding me?!?!? Haven't you read what we have posted for You on the CBBS about these 'false teachers'????"

God bless, BORN AGAIN

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

1) You JUST now grudingly admit that maybe JWs are not your Brethren but you will ask them about the arch-angel Michael. You had the truth on JWs given to you 4 years ago and you still accept them as believers, regardless of what they believe.

2) False teachers, those who wrest and pervert the Word are a reality. It was abundantly clear that the doctrines of sin, repentence, redemption were alien to Joel Osteen when he appeared on Larry King, and that was why he dropped the ball and had to post his apology. He says that he does not want theology to interfere with his messages, and it is readily apparent.

3) False teachers lead others away from the Gospel of Christ, into an "easy believeism feel good self esteem, God is your sugar daddy with anything your little heart desires, just feel good about yourself where you are at", brand of theology contrary to His Word.

Of course to many, anything goes as long as they use the name of Jesus somewhere in their message.
 

---

Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
Brother Drew, It's Pointless to talk to the deaf and blind (shaking head ruefully) they obviously don't want to see or hear.
 

---

Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
but, not to worry, sister SoftTouch, nobody here knows what you personally believe since you only post stuff about other people.

2 Thessalonians 3:11
For we hear that there are some who walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.

1 Timothy 5:13
And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.

1 Peter 4:15
But let none of you suffer as a murderer or as a thief or as an evildoer or as a busybody in other men's matters.

Matthew 7:3
And why do you look at the mote that is in your brother's eye, but do not consider the beam that is in your own eye?

God bless, BORN AGAIN
 

---

Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
LOL BA, it's truly sad when you have to resort to using Scripture to call me names and bear false witness against me. I thought you more mature then that.

The Lord knows my heart as do my Brothers and Sisters here.
 

---

Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
sister SoftTouch writes

quote:

---

LOL BA, it's truly sad when you have to resort to using Scripture to call me names and bear false witness against me.

---

quote:

---

LOL SoftTouch, it's truly sad when you have to resort to using Scripture to call me names and bear false witness against me.

---

quote:

---

The Lord knows my heart as do my Brothers and Sisters here.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
but, not to worry, sister SoftTouch, nobody here knows what you personally believe since you only post stuff about other people.

2 Thessalonians 3:11
For we hear that there are some who walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.

1 Timothy 5:13
And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.

1 Peter 4:15
But let none of you suffer as a murderer or as a thief or as an evildoer or as a busybody in other men's matters.

Matthew 7:3
And why do you look at the mote that is in your brother's eye, but do not consider the beam that is in your own eye?

God bless, BORN AGAIN

---

BA,

To say that nobody here knows what SoftTouch personally believes is unfair and not true.

Personal attacks are not necessary, nor is randomly grabbing scripture and using it as a weapon. Quite frankly, signing off with God Bless after a post like this seems a bit odd also.

Are you just being grumpy?
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
BA:

quote:

---

But you people on this forum are not railing against Mormons and JWs, you are railing against bornagain saved Christians who generally are not aware of this CBBS nor participate on this CBBS and who cannot defend themselves here; that is completely different than railing against Mormons or New Age or perhaps JWs.

---

quote:

---

but, not to worry, sister SoftTouch, nobody here knows what you personally believe since you only post stuff about other people.

---

quote:

---

2 Thessalonians 3:11
For we hear that there are some who walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.

---

quote:

---

1 Timothy 5:13
And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.

1 Peter 4:15
But let none of you suffer as a murderer or as a thief or as an evildoer or as a busybody in other men's matters.

---

quote:

---

Matthew 7:3
And why do you look at the mote that is in your brother's eye, but do not consider the beam that is in your own eye?

---

What makes you so dog gone sure that Deb has not removed the beam from her own eye with regard to the things she does speak of? I am sure wa all have some beams, but we do not all have the same beams. Has God given you some special revelation that you know that Deb is trying to help someone pull this particular sliver from someone's eye, when she still has it in hers? I see that Deb is pretty adept at discerning apostasy and when what is said does not line up with scripture and that makes her able to help someone else. Maybe you are not free of this beam and are not able to help someone else in this matter. Dont rail against one who is. Instead minster to those who need help with the beams you have already by HIS power had removed from your eyes. To whom much is given much is required!

Love In Christ, your sister
Linda
 

---

Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on :
 
Once again, HFHS sets the record straight.

Nicely done and a hearty amen from me.
 

---

Posted by Pleasemaranatha (Member # 5150) on :
 
Dear Soft touch, Helpforhomeschoolers, Caretaker, and the others. I don't want to stir a fight up or have trouble in any way....but need to ask you all this question.

Jesus said in Matt. 7: verse 18 that a good tree cannot give evil fruit, or a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Ok ...with that being so true. Why have so many people that I have known (including myself) have eaten good fruits from most of these ministers you accuse of evil. Many have been blessed, grown close to the Lord, been saved by God's words through their ministries. If they only produce good fruits from their labours from Our Lord...........they should be good preachers and believers right? I keep reading this chapter over and over not seeing them as false prophets.

That is why I posted a to Born Again. What if you all are wrong with your accusations against them?

I do know some false prophets and teachers. But some of the ones you name are good not bad. And isn't it dangerous for you to be wrongly discerning some of them?

Thanks,


Matthew 7
1Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

6Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

9Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

12Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

King James Version (KJV)
 

---

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
If a teacher is wresting scripture and teaching contrary to the Word, it matters not how "good" it feels/appears, it is corrupt.

There are large numbers who flock to, and defend Benny Hinn, and he is as false and corrupt as any of the current flock on TBN.

Rev. 3:
17: Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19: As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
 

---

Posted by Pleasemaranatha (Member # 5150) on :
 
A corrupt tree, Jesus said, cannot produce good fruit.

By their fruits they will be known. Many have been blessed by God watching ministers on TBN.
Sure some humna being ministers have made a few mistakes now and then.......but they produced good fruit.

Many sinners have been shown their sins and ran to repent and ask God for forgiveness. They have heard the Holy inspired word of God through many ministers on TBN and have grown in service to OUR LORD GOD. GOOD fruit fed them. A corrupt tree cannot produce good fruit.....Jesus said.
 

---

Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
Joyce,

Maybe it would be helpful to your understanding of Why we call these teachers out to do a "Search" here on the name or names of the teachers you're concerned about. Read some of the threads (believe me, there are many) and hopefully you'll understand where we're coming from and why?

A search is easy to do here. At the top of the page you'll see " my profile | directory | search | faq | forum home " Just click on search, type in the name and make sure to check both this section (Exposing False Teaching) and Bible Study as there are 'discussions' in both sections. Unfortunately we've lost a lot of information on the board recently... but still, there should be ample threads to read through.

I hope this is helpful
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Sister Joyce: You have testified here that you understand what you were before Christ and you know repentance and it is obvious to me that you love the Lord; care about his word, are not cavalier about it; are humble, and gifted with the ability to see our GREAT BIG GOD in the most simple of things... even a pot of dumplings!

Somewhere, you learned that you were lost and you were a wretched sinner who needed Christ and you became born again. Because you are born again, GOD is able to teach you all things by HIS spirit in spite of man! God is working all things together for your good and HIS glory because you love the Lord and are called according to HIS purpose and those who are Christ's have crucified the lusts of the flesh and the affections thereof!

Dont confuse the fruit of God with the fruit of men. If a man repents that is a result of God's work, not man's. If a man is saved, that is the power of the Gospel not man. If you are blessed by something man teaches it is because God moved in you to bless you. God can bless you through the devil if HE so desires. In fact God is an expert at taking what the enemy means for destruction and using it for HIS glory.

But sister Joyce? What about those that were drawn to a church and an altar call not because they were seeking forgiveness, repentance, slavation, Christ? What about those who came, not to learn to die, but to learn to get more power, more material things more self sufficiency? Today we have preachers that wont even use the word Sin! Today we have preachers that say come as you are and stay that way, God loves the monogomous homosexual and will not judge you. What about those who were like me and came as an innocent child and then spent 30 years living like a heathen pig because no one was there to teach the truth? Do you have any idea how much my ignorance cost not just me but the people around me? Do you have any idea just how much sin one can justify if they do not know the word of God... not man's feel good teaching of the word, but the word? What about those who come now for promises of a wonderful life in this life and are going to see persecution? Have you not read what happens to them?
**************************************************
Mark 4:16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word’s sake, immediately they are offended.
18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
*************************************************

This scripture of Matthew 7 that you keep quoting speaks of the fruit a false teacher has, and it speaks also of the fruit he gathers.

There is a false teaching that is alive and well among us that says we judge a person to be a man of God or a prophet of God or a servant of God or one who is producing fruit in the kingdom of God by the number of souls that attend one of his revival meetings or the size of the crowd that comes down the aisle in an alter call or the number of youth that flock to a concert or the number of people that pray a sinner's prayer at some function.

In fact, I just read a recent Barna poll where some 90+ % of pastors when asked about the spiritual condition of their church judged that based on church attendance, some based it slowly on that; a great number of others based it on that and whether the people were working in the body or church. That is not how God judges our spiritual condition.

First let us see what we are; we human's who are born again are not fruit of men, though we are God's fruit and can be gathered by men.

You can't measure another man's success by the number of souls that come to Christ at one of his meetings. We are not fruit of men.

WE ARE BRANCHES OF GOD!!!!

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

We every single one of us who are BRANCHES of God are called to bear fruit. Spiritual Fruit. This fruit is the EVIDENCE of the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD that indwells us:

Galatiains 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. {affections: or, passions}
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

These are the things that we see in the born again child of God that speak and show us that they are a born again child of God. This is not fruit they produce themselves... it is the fruit, evidence of HIS spirit that indwells the believer.

Souls that come to Christ are fruit of no man; they are branches spawned from the Sown seed of God that is the word of God. The word is the seed that produces branches. It does this of HIS power not ours. The word/seed has all that it needs to produce a plant when it falls into the right ground and roots form. We do not "win" souls to Christ; GOD calls; HIS word when mixed with Faith produces the branch. GOD's work.

The scriptures are absoulutely full of pictures of lying wonders and miracles produced by ungodly men.

The scriptures warn about lying wonders and signs of the devil that are produced by the one that appears as an angel of light.

The scriptures speak of those to whom Jesus will say "I NEVER KNEW YOU" yet they have prophesied and done miracles in HIS name![b]

Fruit is produced in a branch; The branch has no control over the fruit that it produces. The type of fruit is determined by the genetics of the root. The quality is determined by the environment and the nutrients delivered to the branch. The timing of the fruit is determined by the season.

Olive trees will never bring forth oranges or figs or anything other than olives. If an olive tree is wild and uncultivated it may not produce any fruit at all or it may produce fruit that is not very good fruit... not very much oil in the olive, but it is still an olive.

Jesus said he is the vine and we are the branches; if we live attached to the vine the vine will produce fruit in us because the vine is attached to the roots and the fruit that is produced will be the fruit of the root.

Men cannot control the fruit that they produce; the fruit is either good because it is produced by God who is Good; or the fruit is evil because it is produced by the root of the one who is evil.

All men have fruit; but only the born again man can have good fruit because only the born again man can produce fruit of the spirit of God.

I dont care how good your works look; if they were not HIS works manifest through you by HIS spirit, they are not good. God can and did manifest good works out of a donkey, and a pagan kings.

Your flesh is not of God; Your flesh is able to produce works that look good, but are still out of the flesh. We can see this any day of the week. I know heathen pagan occult practicing people who would give you the shirt from their back, take you into their home and feed you, could even teach you how to use your mind and your will to manifest success and prosperity. Napolean Hill, Andrew Canagie,Carl Jung, Anthony Robbins, Peter Drucker have been teaching men how to believe and succeed, believe and acheive since long before I was born and many have found health wealth prosperity and hapiness in the material things that they have manifest from their teachings. Inserting the words faith and Christ do not change anything if it is still man's will and not God's will that is being manifest or man's works and not God's works.


Off rant:

Back to Matthew 7 and what Jesus is teaching:

BUT HERE IS WHAT THEY (false teachers/wolves in sheeps clothing) WILL NOT HAVE... HOLY SPIRIT FRUIT!

We are warned of these things:

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. {pernicious ways: or, lascivious ways, as some copies read}
3 ¶ And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Brothers and sisters, can we not see these people today???? Maybe some of you cant, but I tell you I can see them, and they are like the false prophets of old; they feed themselves off the flock that they are supposed to be caring for; they speak of freedom and bring bondage; they lead the sheep astray and if you think that there are not thousands in the church today who are right now led astray you better think again. You have homosexuals in the pulpit; you have christians having abortions, you have Christians who are living in all manner of sin; you have people in the church who are in debt to their eyeballs ad cant pay their bills and their brothers who should be caring for them cant because their wealth is supporting TV preacher's mutimillion dollar compund.

The wolves are among us folks!

1. They teach heresy
2. They deny Christ
3. Many follow their pernicious ways
4. They are covetous
5. They make merchandise of those who follow them

1 John 4:1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Can we not see today some that deny that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh? Some deny him completely calling him an angel... a created being. But that is not the only way that he is denied to have come in the flesh!

Can we not see that some who say Jesus Jesus still deny that he came in the flesh because they preach that he had to die in the spirit to save us? Can we not see that if we deny that Jesus is GOD manifest in the Flesh.... the perfect unblemished sacrifice that condemned sin IN THE FLESH, the ONE who commended his spirit to GOD and then gave up the Ghost, then we also Deny that Jesus came in the Flesh?


What was Jesus talking about when he said: by their fruits ye shall know them? The prophet is known by the fruits he has and by the fruits he gathers!

Matthew 7:15 ¶ Beware of false prophets,

First we have to recognize that these that Jesus is warning about are prophets, claiming to speak the word of God as sheep, come to sheep

which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Here is the clue... they look like sheep; but they are wolves; they have a ravenous appetite for sheep

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

We have to be careful not to miss this; Jesus is now talking about men who gather fruit. he says look at the people who gather fruit in the vinyard, do they gather grapes from Thorn Bushes? Do they Gather figs from Thisles...no grapes are gathered from grape vines and figs from fig trees. Men gather grapes from grape vines and figs from fig trees; grapes and figs are God's harvest. Are these men gathering God's harvest from God's vines and fig trees... that is the next thing we are to look at.

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

when we look at the fig trees and the grape vines to see that they are fig trees and grape vines and not thorns and thistles, then we look knowing that even among fig trees and grape vines there are good and bad.

Jesus says a good tree WILL bring forth Good fruit. and a corupt tree will bring forth evil fruit

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Don't miss this: a good tree cannot CANNOT bring forth evil fruit. See 1 John 3:9

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

EVERY tree that does not bring forth Good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

We know the tree by the fruit; is there Holy Spirit fruit?

But we also know the ones that Gather fruit, by the fruit they gather.

It is not enough to see great numbers of people coming to alter calls.

We must see that the gathered fruit also has fruit.

[b]If the one who gathers is gathering great numbers who never produce fruit, then we can see a problem.

21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Jesus says it is not enough that you call to him Lord Lord.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

MANY will say LORD LORD.... this many will have works... good works, so it seems.

They have prophesied in HIS name and have Cast out devils in HIS name, and done many WONDERFUL works. WORKS ARE NOT FRUIT!!!!

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

BUT JESUS NEVER KNEW THEM; THEY were not HIS sheep; THEY were those who work iniquity. They produced fruit that is evil - The Holy Spirit was missing - they could not produce Good Fruit and they not having the Holy Spirit, not being born again produced EVIL fruit.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

ONLY when our House is built on the Rock...Christ is the Son of the Living God... the Messiah. Only when our house is built in faith believing unto rebirth and we have the indwelling Holy Spirit, will our house stand when the rains and the flood and the winds come.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


Today, we can see the apostasy; we can see the falling away. The winds and the rains and the floods are coming and the houses are falling.

The church is absolutely full of fruit that was gathered together by false prophets and teachers and they have not built their house upon the rock. And their houses are falling.

False prophets and false teachers devour the sheep. Jesus commanded that his disciples go out into the world and make disciples. This body must get bent on making disciples more than gathering figs and grapes with no regard for the quality of the fruit. We have so concerned ourselves with the size of the harvest that we have failed to regard the product we are harvesting. This is not love! This is not of God! This is a sin and a crime. This is to our shame.

We have allowed the enmy to lie to us and to breed in us fear that we can judge nothing of doctrine and nothing of teaching and we call this love... we have bought the lie that he is spreading "touch not mine annointed". We have forgotten everything that Paul said about church disipline and we ignore that Paul took, Peter, and James and Cephas & John to task over false doctrine and he did this out of love.

We have to stop looking at people who call themselves members of this body and praising them for the great numbers that they can gather and realize that if those whom they gather are not building their houses on the ROCK, their houses are going to fall and it will be as much our fault as it is the fault of the wolves in sheeps clothing that came to gather them.
 

---

Posted by Pleasemaranatha (Member # 5150) on :
 
I understand what you are saying. It is tough to find a church that teaches exactly correct. That is why we have switched so many times finding NOT one church that has everything perfect. We found all churches and ministers are faulty in some way. Like all of us members here are faulty at times with our postings without love or kindness.

To whom are we supposed to listen to and be taught by until Jesus calls us home? So far, THE HOLY SPIIRIT has always taught us HIS way. We have gleaned the truth from many places you would have a cow over. But, being hungry for fellowship with believers where God can move, teach, and have His way .....is worth the search.

Is the baptist church the only one we should join? Or a special denomination that is other than that? Is there a list of specific ministers that only are on track? Let me know? I am not being irreverant or joking. Which tv ministers on tv is ok? Is the 700 club ok? I watch it about everyday. What is your advice?

I love you guys and girls....but I don't know who to trust except God. If I hear something off He raises a red flag and I turn or flip the channel. Sometimes God does speak teaching me through the tv minister and shows me where I need to grow.

Thanks to you all for responding. I want to keep this upbeat and cool. Like I heard before from prob. someone on the tbn station, we better learn to get along down here before we spend an eternity together forever.

That is it for now. Anything I wrote now or earlier is just my opinion and I do respect your opinion.
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
I think that is the point! Joyce, we are to trust GOD alone and HIS word ALONE is truth.

Paul I think demonstrated for us that it does not matter who you are when you speak to teach others contrary to the word of God, you are to be rebuked for it. Think about Peter! Peter was the one to whom God said I will give to you that keys to the Kingdom; Jesus prayed personally for Peter that his faith not fail him when he denied the LORD 3 times before the **** crowed. Still, when Paul was right and he knew it and Peter was wrong and he knew it, he rebuked Peter. THIS is AGAPE LOVE! But what is even more important is how did Peter respond? Peter responded to the Spirit of Truth and repented of his error! That is what a spirit led person does when the Spirit brings conviction.

Paul said this and it to me is comforting:

1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

God has allowed for divisions - Divisions must come MUST is that word up there - God has allowed for this so that those of whom GOD approves are manifest.

Peter was approved and God's approval of him was manifest in his responding to the Spirit of truth as spoken by Paul rather than his opposing it.


2 Corinthians 10:18 For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.

Why are the tares allowed to grow with the wheat? Because in growing the wheat manifests itself as wheat and the tares are clearly seen as tares.

John speaks to this here as well:

1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

18 ¶ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

*************************************************

What I think about is this. If what I hear being preached is found in the WORD and not contradicted in the scripture and is applicble not just to me as a Christian, but also to the Christian that hides in the basement with but a scrap of a page of the word and worships Jesus, then it is of God.

If however, it is not found in the word, or it is contradicted by the word, or it does not apply equally to me and also to the Christian that is living in the third world with nothing but persecution tribulation and trial in this life, then it is not of God.

When you tell me that that I can look around at your 400k home and 200k jet and what ever you can think of that you feel is blessing of God and tell me that you are living your reward... this is a sign of your faith... I say you are a liar because you do not have more faith than Paul and he had none of that.. you do not have more faith than a watchman Nee and he would have had no part of that! The Bible says we are blessed with all spiritual blessing in the heavenlies and in this life we will suffer because this world hates us as it hated him.

Does God also bless us with abundance? You bet! But not that we can lavish it on ourselves, but that we can use it to minister to the body and do HIS will.

When you tell me that you are without sickness because of your great faith and your bold prayers and because you believe that by HIS stripes you are healed. I say why? Why do you think that you have more faith than Paul's companion Epaphroditus, who was sick... nigh to death? Why do you think that you have more faith than the one who goes to their death praising God while their body is ravished by cancer and their hair falls out and their pain is beyond measure? How true to the word of God would this message be for this saint with cancer that has peace, Joy and power in the Holy Ghost though her body is being devoured from the inside out? Which message speaks of God most to those who watch each of these lives? Which illustration speaks most loudly of God's majesty to the angels?????

Are we healed now by HIS stripes... you bet, but sometimes it is not manifest in this life because it does not serve HIS purpose in this life.

When you tell me that because you just learned to believe God that he will give you the desires of your heart, just simply ask and believe and cars and planes and homes and new dresses what ever just come to you because you have learned to believe for them... and God just wills to bless you, I have to ask, why do you think that your faith is greater than the one that treks up a mountainside daily without shoes to preach Jesus to those in a remote village somewhere in India where people are dying and going to hell? Who is more in the will of God? How true to the word of God would your message of health wealth and prosperity and favormindedness ring in his ears?

God does give the desires of our heart... but sometimes what we desire is like the quail that the Isrealites desired in the desert... it will kill you! The richman had his reward in this life and none in the life to come. Sometimes we ought think about what our heart desires.


Matthew 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
 

---

Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caretaker:
If a teacher is wresting scripture and teaching contrary to the Word, it matters not how "good" it feels/appears, it is corrupt.

There are large numbers who flock to, and defend Benny Hinn, and he is as false and corrupt as any of the current flock on TBN.

Rev. 3:
17: Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19: As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caretaker:
To HisGrace:

1) You were one of those who desired that all studies of deception and heresy be moved from the Bible Study forum to the Exposing forum so that you would not have to be exposed to it.

2) You continue to enter the Exposing forum to defend any false teacher from Benny Hinn to Joel Osteen, and to seek to undermine the credibility of anyone speaking-out against the horrendous deception in the Church.

3) Deception is like an abcess, a wound which is filled with putrid pus, and not easily discernable with blinded eye. The poison is infiltrating the surrounding cell tissue, and if left untreated, or covered-up will continue to infect the Body and eventually kill through blood-poisoning. It has to be "lanced". the wound opened-up and exposed in order for the poison to be drained-out and healing enter-in.

4) The poison is sheer ugly, evil with a horrible stench in the Body. You can make all the protestations and declare, "that if you don't play nice I am going to pick-up my toys and go home", but you won't change the need for poison control one iota, nor the posts of those who have such a heart for the Word and desire for the Truth.

The trenches are ugly, the face of the enemy has a broad smile and warm personae, a false mask which conceals sheer putrid evil, and is leading so many into the dark pit of destruction, on a multitude of fronts.

You can be part of the cure, or you can continue to be part of the problem. One can enable heresy to proliferate, to seek to cover-over the festering wounds of deception with the broad brush of "sweetness and light", or one can "lance" through the layers of deception and allow the wound to be exposed, the abscess drained, and healing to begin.

It will never be sweetness and light in the trenches, but Praise God His Light will pierce through the darkness, will break asunder the shackles and will set captives free.

Romans 8:
35: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36: As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37: Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38: For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

---

quote:

---

White Eagle writes to Caretaker: The Trouble is regarding your quote about teaching contrary to the Word of God.... YOu are basing it on a very rigid and narrow view according to the judgement of Caretaker.

I'll go with the Holy Spirit, thank you very much.

---

quote:

---

Also Benny Hinn has not denied that Christ is come in the Flesh. He preaches Christ, in a fullness that you are not able to receive.

That's my opinion.

---

quote:

---

"See, God the Father is a person, God the Son is a person, God the Holy Spirit is a person. But each one of them is a triune being by himself. If I can shock you, and maybe I should, there's nine of them."13 Hinn clearly rejects the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity for a bizarre formulation which is, in effect, tri-theism to the third power! While tri-theism is, as we have seen, a somewhat popular dogma taught by Bible teachers like Jimmy Swaggart, Hinn's formulation of this takes on a new dimension. In orthodox Trinitarianism, God is said to be one in substance, and three in person. Benny Hinn abandons this formula by insisting upon defining the persons in the Godhead in such a way as to destroy the idea of God existing in only one substance. For Hinn, God is not one in substance at all, but only one in purpose. Hinn writes of the Godhead, "what is true about one does not necessarily apply to all three. They are different, even in the way They move and in the way They talk. We've already discussed the fact that members of the Godhead are distinct persons -- yet they are one."14 But what does Hinn mean by his orthodox sounding assertion that they are one? "The Trinity, as we will see, is comprised of three distinct and unique entities. But you need to understand Their Oneness -- Their unity. It is essential that you recognize that the all-embracing Oneness we are talking about is connected to the work of the Godhead" (Italics in the original).15

Thus the oneness found in the Godhead is related only to the work of God, what is spoken of as the economic relationship within the Trinity. Hinn then goes on to cite I Corinthians 12:5-6 as a definition of the oneness of God. "There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but the same God who works in all." This text is used to set out how the oneness of God is economic (characteristic of tri-theism), rather than ontological (that is, one in substance, as in orthodox Trinitarianism).

Paul was unfolding the working of the Godhead. He explained that the Lord Jesus is the administrator, the Father is the operator, and the Holy Ghost is the manifestor....What is the primary work of the Father? He operates. And what about the Son? He administrates the operation of the Father. And the Holy Ghost manifests the administration of that operation.16

In other words, according to Hinn, what Paul is telling us is that these three distinct "gods," each with a body, a soul and a spirit, work so well together, and in such harmony that they are one - kind of one big, happy, divine family if you will!

In order to interpret Paul in this fashion, and to make him out to be a fellow tri-theist, Hinn must reject what orthodox Christians have considered the essential element to make sense of the Biblical data describing God as existing in three distinct persons. This is the fundamental point that the three persons of the Godhead are one in purpose because they are one in substance. The Scriptures repeatedly declare that there is only one God, and that each of the three persons of the Trinity mentioned in the Scriptures - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - are each called God. If these persons are not one in substance, then logically they are three distinct gods, each with their own unique substances. This reduces Christianity to polytheism. Benny Hinn, therefore, is not orthodox in his views on the Trinity. He leaves us with three distinct gods, who are each triune (with body, soul and spirit), and who do not share the same common substance, but are only one in purpose. Hinn's "god" therefore, is three in substance and nine in person. This is simply nonsense, for it amounts to tri-theism.

---

quote:

---

White Eagle says to Drew:It's ironic that you quote Romans 8:35-39 about the Love of Christ after you have backstabbed the very ministers of the Gospel of whom you disagree with and call heretics.

---

quote:

---

White Eagle: Sometimes when I'm reading these discussions, I believe with great fear, that if Christ Himself posted on this forum; you and some others would attack Him as being the son of the DEVIL, just as the Pharisees did.

Just my opinion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
I know you did not write the above to me, but how much do you listen to Hinn? Have you read any of his books? I dont know what it is that Hinn preaches, and I would not call it Christ, though he does; I might call it gnosticism with a twist, but I am thankful not to be able to receive it. This is a good example of what I speak of:

"See, God the Father is a person, God the Son is a person, God the Holy Spirit is a person. But each one of them is a triune being by himself. If I can shock you, and maybe I should, there's nine of them."13 Hinn clearly rejects the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity for a bizarre formulation which is, in effect, tri-theism to the third power! While tri-theism is, as we have seen, a somewhat popular dogma taught by Bible teachers like Jimmy Swaggart, Hinn's formulation of this takes on a new dimension. In orthodox Trinitarianism, God is said to be one in substance, and three in person. Benny Hinn abandons this formula by insisting upon defining the persons in the Godhead in such a way as to destroy the idea of God existing in only one substance. For Hinn, God is not one in substance at all, but only one in purpose. Hinn writes of the Godhead, "what is true about one does not necessarily apply to all three. They are different, even in the way They move and in the way They talk. We've already discussed the fact that members of the Godhead are distinct persons -- yet they are one."14 But what does Hinn mean by his orthodox sounding assertion that they are one? "The Trinity, as we will see, is comprised of three distinct and unique entities. But you need to understand Their Oneness -- Their unity. It is essential that you recognize that the all-embracing Oneness we are talking about is connected to the work of the Godhead" (Italics in the original).15

Thus the oneness found in the Godhead is related only to the work of God, what is spoken of as the economic relationship within the Trinity. Hinn then goes on to cite I Corinthians 12:5-6 as a definition of the oneness of God. "There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but the same God who works in all." This text is used to set out how the oneness of God is economic (characteristic of tri-theism), rather than ontological (that is, one in substance, as in orthodox Trinitarianism).

Paul was unfolding the working of the Godhead. He explained that the Lord Jesus is the administrator, the Father is the operator, and the Holy Ghost is the manifestor....What is the primary work of the Father? He operates. And what about the Son? He administrates the operation of the Father. And the Holy Ghost manifests the administration of that operation.16

In other words, according to Hinn, what Paul is telling us is that these three distinct "gods," each with a body, a soul and a spirit, work so well together, and in such harmony that they are one - kind of one big, happy, divine family if you will!

In order to interpret Paul in this fashion, and to make him out to be a fellow tri-theist, Hinn must reject what orthodox Christians have considered the essential element to make sense of the Biblical data describing God as existing in three distinct persons. This is the fundamental point that the three persons of the Godhead are one in purpose because they are one in substance. The Scriptures repeatedly declare that there is only one God, and that each of the three persons of the Trinity mentioned in the Scriptures - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - are each called God. If these persons are not one in substance, then logically they are three distinct gods, each with their own unique substances. This reduces Christianity to polytheism. Benny Hinn, therefore, is not orthodox in his views on the Trinity. He leaves us with three distinct gods, who are each triune (with body, soul and spirit), and who do not share the same common substance, but are only one in purpose. Hinn's "god" therefore, is three in substance and nine in person. This is simply nonsense, for it amounts to tri-theism.

---

I don't need any Dr. Riddlebargers, with pre-conceived agendas and biased opinions, to interpret what Benny Hinn or anyone else says. I test their words out in the Bible and use my own discernment.

Notice that 3/4 of the 'quote' is by Riddlebarger and 1/4 is what Hinn supposedly said. Looks like Dr.R is the one doing the 'twisting.'

I never go by second-hand information. HFHS you said that you don't know what Benny Hinn preaches. If you are ready to expound on him so much, how come?

Probably some are uncomfortable to see me back, but others encouraged me to do so, so here I am.
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Ah HisGrace you are still here. I thought you might be here all along and if not I thought you would certainly be back; If I am really honest about my thoughts on your opening post here, I saw it as a ploy to have people jump in and say "Oh, HisGrace.. dont go!" as you have in the past made posts such as the one that opened this thread and then come back. I had no reason to believe that it would be any different this time. Some people just need that kind of attention every once and a while. That is why I did not respond to the opening post of this thread.

quote:

---

never go by second-hand information. HFHS you said that you don't know what Benny Hinn preaches. If you are ready to expound on him so much, how come?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caretaker:
To HisGrace:

1) You were one of those who desired that all studies of deception and heresy be moved from the Bible Study forum to the Exposing forum so that you would not have to be exposed to it.

2) You continue to enter the Exposing forum to defend any false teacher from Benny Hinn to Joel Osteen, and to seek to undermine the credibility of anyone speaking-out against the horrendous deception in the Church.

3) Deception is like an abcess, a wound which is filled with putrid pus, and not easily discernable with blinded eye. The poison is infiltrating the surrounding cell tissue, and if left untreated, or covered-up will continue to infect the Body and eventually kill through blood-poisoning. It has to be "lanced". the wound opened-up and exposed in order for the poison to be drained-out and healing enter-in.

4) The poison is sheer ugly, evil with a horrible stench in the Body. You can make all the protestations and declare, "that if you don't play nice I am going to pick-up my toys and go home", but you won't change the need for poison control one iota, nor the posts of those who have such a heart for the Word and desire for the Truth.

The trenches are ugly, the face of the enemy has a broad smile and warm personae, a false mask which conceals sheer putrid evil, and is leading so many into the dark pit of destruction, on a multitude of fronts.

You can be part of the cure, or you can continue to be part of the problem. One can enable heresy to proliferate, to seek to cover-over the festering wounds of deception with the broad brush of "sweetness and light", or one can "lance" through the layers of deception and allow the wound to be exposed, the abscess drained, and healing to begin.

It will never be sweetness and light in the trenches, but Praise God His Light will pierce through the darkness, will break asunder the shackles and will set captives free.

Romans 8:
35: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36: As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37: Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38: For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

---

When he posted it, it appeared that you were gone and I saw no reason to say anything about it; but since you are still here let me say this..

Amen! and Amen Drew!
 

---

Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
Hey HFHS, I saw that show on TBN when Hinn was talking to Paul Crouch about God being triune in Himself, and Jesus was triune in himself and the Holy Spirit being triune in Himself.

I remember the look on Paul Crouches face. I told my husband, who was also watching at that time, to look at the shock on Pauls face. I thought surely Paul Crouch would disagree, but he did not.

I don't know if you know anyting about the Mormon religion, but this is one of their teachings also. That there are actually 9 Gods in the total Godhead.

it kinda shocked me to hear BH proclaim that, seeing as he was raised and baptised in the Greek Orthodox church. And what really shocks me is that no one at TBN called him on it.

Not to mention some of the prophecies Benny Hinn has put out that never came true.

Now Im not saying he doesn't preach Christ, but i am saying he is adding to the word. Imagine if you will, that some Mormon was watching the TBN show that day and heard what BH said about the Godhead. They would probably say to themselves, "hey, here is a man who is teaching one of our doctrines, so we must have it right".

This is hypothetical, but it could have happened.
Maybe BH wants to be all things to all peoples and mixes a little bit of this churches teachings with that curches teachings, add some from Jesus's teachings and before you know it, all will come togethere under One Ecumenical Church.

As believers, we do have the right to question why someone would think that God is actually 9 persons. I certainly do question it. Benny Hinn said it, Paul Crouch did not try to deny this teaching, it was broadcasted on a TBN program because I and my husband watched it, and I have never heard BH retract this particular belief.
 

---

Posted by by_grace (Member # 5340) on :
 
Amen HFHS! my thoughts exactly.

I was thinking the very same thing when I saw yet another "I am leaving" thread.

how many times does this make now? and all over the same silliness.

This part of the forum has been put here by David as was requested....and still, Hisgrace, you come in over and over as if you were the "post police".

If indeed you are bothered so very much, why do you continue to enter? It is just baffling!

good grief.

 

---

Posted by Pleasemaranatha (Member # 5150) on :
 
Welcome HisGrace

I am happy you are back.
 

---

Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:

quote:

---

White Eagle writes to Caretaker: The Trouble is regarding your quote about teaching contrary to the Word of God.... YOu are basing it on a very rigid and narrow view according to the judgement of Caretaker.

I'll go with the Holy Spirit, thank you very much.

---

The Holy Spirit does not contradict scripture. None of us should be interpreting scripture... we should be seeking to see how the scripture interprets scripture. The Holy Spirit will never cause someone to interpret scripture in such a way that scripture contradicts with what the Holy Spirit is teaching.

quote:

---

Also Benny Hinn has not denied that Christ is come in the Flesh. He preaches Christ, in a fullness that you are not able to receive.

That's my opinion.

---

I know you did not write the above to me, but how much do you listen to Hinn? Have you read any of his books? I dont know what it is that Hinn preaches, and I would not call it Christ, though he does; I might call it gnosticism with a twist, but I am thankful not to be able to receive it. This is a good example of what I speak of:

quote:

---

"See, God the Father is a person, God the Son is a person, God the Holy Spirit is a person. But each one of them is a triune being by himself. If I can shock you, and maybe I should, there's nine of them."13 Hinn clearly rejects the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity for a bizarre formulation which is, in effect, tri-theism to the third power! While tri-theism is, as we have seen, a somewhat popular dogma taught by Bible teachers like Jimmy Swaggart, Hinn's formulation of this takes on a new dimension. In orthodox Trinitarianism, God is said to be one in substance, and three in person. Benny Hinn abandons this formula by insisting upon defining the persons in the Godhead in such a way as to destroy the idea of God existing in only one substance. For Hinn, God is not one in substance at all, but only one in purpose. Hinn writes of the Godhead, "what is true about one does not necessarily apply to all three. They are different, even in the way They move and in the way They talk. We've already discussed the fact that members of the Godhead are distinct persons -- yet they are one."14 But what does Hinn mean by his orthodox sounding assertion that they are one? "The Trinity, as we will see, is comprised of three distinct and unique entities. But you need to understand Their Oneness -- Their unity. It is essential that you recognize that the all-embracing Oneness we are talking about is connected to the work of the Godhead" (Italics in the original).15

Thus the oneness found in the Godhead is related only to the work of God, what is spoken of as the economic relationship within the Trinity. Hinn then goes on to cite I Corinthians 12:5-6 as a definition of the oneness of God. "There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but the same God who works in all." This text is used to set out how the oneness of God is economic (characteristic of tri-theism), rather than ontological (that is, one in substance, as in orthodox Trinitarianism).

Paul was unfolding the working of the Godhead. He explained that the Lord Jesus is the administrator, the Father is the operator, and the Holy Ghost is the manifestor....What is the primary work of the Father? He operates. And what about the Son? He administrates the operation of the Father. And the Holy Ghost manifests the administration of that operation.16

In other words, according to Hinn, what Paul is telling us is that these three distinct "gods," each with a body, a soul and a spirit, work so well together, and in such harmony that they are one - kind of one big, happy, divine family if you will!

In order to interpret Paul in this fashion, and to make him out to be a fellow tri-theist, Hinn must reject what orthodox Christians have considered the essential element to make sense of the Biblical data describing God as existing in three distinct persons. This is the fundamental point that the three persons of the Godhead are one in purpose because they are one in substance. The Scriptures repeatedly declare that there is only one God, and that each of the three persons of the Trinity mentioned in the Scriptures - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - are each called God. If these persons are not one in substance, then logically they are three distinct gods, each with their own unique substances. This reduces Christianity to polytheism. Benny Hinn, therefore, is not orthodox in his views on the Trinity. He leaves us with three distinct gods, who are each triune (with body, soul and spirit), and who do not share the same common substance, but are only one in purpose. Hinn's "god" therefore, is three in substance and nine in person. This is simply nonsense, for it amounts to tri-theism.

---

You can read this article in full at:

http://www.modernreformation.org/krhinn.htm


The above is not from some "heresy hunter" webiste either, it was written by Dr. Kim Riddlebarger for Modern Reformation Magazine; Dr. Riddlebarger is the senior pastor of Christ Reformed Church in Anaheim, CA [URCNA], visiting professor of systematic theology at Westminster Seminary California, and co-host of The White Horse Inn radio program. I do not agree with him on all matters of theology, but i believe that the article does address some major issues with Hinn and does document well its sources, as you can see in the Bibliography.

quote:

---

White Eagle says to Drew:It's ironic that you quote Romans 8:35-39 about the Love of Christ after you have backstabbed the very ministers of the Gospel of whom you disagree with and call heretics.

---

What is your definition of backstabbing? I cannot see any where that Drew has ever backstabbed anyone. Can you show an example of what you feel was backstabbing?

quote:

---

White Eagle: Sometimes when I'm reading these discussions, I believe with great fear, that if Christ Himself posted on this forum; you and some others would attack Him as being the son of the DEVIL, just as the Pharisees did.

Just my opinion.

---

I have to tell you that because I find Drew to be a very solid person both doctrinally and personally, and I have seen in him much much much spiritual fruit, I was offened to read this.

One can be deceived and deny scriptural truth; one can be ignorant of scriptural truth; one can naivly and blindly defend the devil's work belieiving it to be good. Ignorance, deception, niavity can cause us to mistake the enemy for good.

BUT there is only 1 way to mistake Christ for the enemy as the Pharisee did....there is only one way that one could attack Christ as the Pharisee did and that is to lack knowledge of the Father and indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit... to be an unregenerate man... not born again.

It is one thing to diagree with what you see as someone's "interpetation" of the Bible; it is quite another to say what you have just said to Drew. I pray that you just have not thought through the implications of this statement.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Ah HisGrace you are still here. I thought you might be here all along and if not I thought you would certainly be back; If I am really honest about my thoughts on your opening post here, I saw it as a ploy to have people jump in and say "Oh, HisGrace.. dont go!" as you have in the past made posts such as the one that opened this thread and then come back. I had no reason to believe that it would be any different this time. Some people just need that kind of attention every once and a while. That is why I did not respond to the opening post of this thread.

---

Exactly

And AMEN on your Post about Drews post to HisGrace

And Welcome Back By_Grace!!!! It's good to see you here Sis!
 

---

Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by by_grace:
Amen HFHS! my thoughts exactly.

I was thinking the very same thing when I saw yet another "I am leaving" thread.

how many times does this make now? and all over the same silliness.

This part of the forum has been put here by David as was requested....and still, Hisgrace, you come in over and over as if you were the "post police".

If indeed you are bothered so very much, why do you continue to enter? It is just baffling!

good grief.

---

by_grace!!!! Now there's a "grace" that's truly a sight for sore eyes around here.

I couldn't agree with you more; or HFHS or Caretaker.

The lack of discernment on this board, particularly in the "Exposing" forum, never ceases to amaze me; and yet, the bible tells us this would happen. How one can admit that they watch Benny Hinn or Kenneth Copeland and then turn around and try to convince themselves and others that they have discernment, is beyond me. They only fool themselves - darn near zero credibility for me at this point.

You're right, the "post police" in here are the very ones who whined and whined about these conversations; so much so that a new room was created. And yet here they are. Go figure. Apparently our threads weren't really that disturbing to them after all.

Oh well, as long as people continue to defend these false teachings, it gives us an opportunity to get the Truth out. Thankfully, not everyone will be deceived.

Good to see you!
 

---

Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pleasemaranatha:
I do know some false prophets and teachers. But some of the ones you name are good not bad.

---

Which ones would those be?
 

---

Posted by Pleasemaranatha (Member # 5150) on :
 
Shame on you. I don't understand this tone.

How childish and sinful.

This isn't the way God wants this to be.
 

---

Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
Joyce,

What they're saying is true. It was HisGrace and a few others who petitioned David (the owner of this board) to create this section so they didn't have to 'deal' with reading our threads exposing the Error and Falsehoods of certain teachers/self-proclaimed prophets. Now, the same folks who wanted this section so bad (so they didn't have to read this stuff) are coming in here and complaining... it doesn't make any sense to me.

I explained to you in private (because you asked me) that it's not that we don't 'like' anyone... it's about God's Word and keeping it Unadultrated or UnTwisted, and Prayerfully, in the process, pulling some folks out of the Fake Fire of the False Word Faith movement (as well as other Apostate movements which are on the rise).
 

---

Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 
You see this is what I'm talking about. Linda, I love ya, but..... all this fuss about what Benny Hinn says about God being triune x 3.

It might surprise you that in scripture that Revelation talks about the 7 Spirit of God.

Rev.1:4, Rev. 3:1, and Rev 4:5.

Zechariah 3:9, 4:2, mentions about the seven spirits of God and in Zechariah 4:2-6 which is the vision of Zechariah of the 7 lights on the lampstand and the 2 witnessess. Altogether the 9 components is called the Word of the Lord to Zerubbabel by the angel. Then the well-known verse of Not by power, nor by might, but by My Spirit sayeth the Lord.

Zechariah 4:10 says that 7 is the number of the eyes of the Lord, which range throughout the earth.

God is more more more than we can fathom in His layers and facets and dimentions.

Yes I believe in the trinity concept due to 1 John in that the 3 bear witness in heaven, and other verses, but to remind you all, that the Word Trinity is NOT in the Bible. I could be wrong, and please correct me with scripture and verse, but I don't recall any verse in the Bible that says distinctly that "God in 3 persons, blessed Trinity". (that's from a song btw)

I don't know if Hinn is correct, but what he is spouting does NOT affect Salvation through Jesus Christ alone.


I stand by what I wrote to Caretaker. Writing pious words does not make one more spiritual. Even the disciples didn't recognize Jesus when He showed up after the Resurrection at first.
 

---

Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 
In Rev 4:5 ..."before the throne seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God."


OK that's pretty straightforward verse. YET.....
Some People have twisted scripture and used their own rigid idea that God is Triune only, and say that the number seven here only means "Completion" or "Fullness" of the Godhead, since God created the world in 7 seven days, etc, etc, and the number 7 is the number of completion, etc.

But, you know what, I don't find that doctrine in the Bible. Yes in relation to Creation God rested the 7th Day. But to add to that fact is IN FACT TWISTING SCRIPTURE AS CARETAKER LIKES TO SAY
 

---

Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by SoftTouch:
Joyce,

What they're saying is true. It was HisGrace and a few others who petitioned David (the owner of this board) to create this section so they didn't have to 'deal' with reading our threads exposing the Error and Falsehoods of certain teachers/self-proclaimed prophets. Now, the same folks who wanted this section so bad (so they didn't have to read this stuff) are coming in here and complaining... it doesn't make any sense to me.

I explained to you in private (because you asked me) that it's not that we don't 'like' anyone... it's about God's Word and keeping it Unadultrated or UnTwisted, and Prayerfully, in the process, pulling some folks out of the Fake Fire of the False Word Faith movement (as well as other Apostate movements which are on the rise).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by hardcore:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pleasemaranatha:
I do know some false prophets and teachers. But some of the ones you name are good not bad.

---

Which ones would those be?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by WhiteEagle:

quote:

---

Originally posted by hardcore:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pleasemaranatha:
I do know some false prophets and teachers. But some of the ones you name are good not bad.

---

Which ones would those be?

---

Let's see, The Mormons preach a different Jesus, so do the Jehovah Witnesses, and the Muslims also preach as Different Jesus, as well as the New Age movement.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Well, I didn't request that. I'm here, and I'm seeing lots of heresy, but not what you think it is.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by hardcore:

quote:

---

Originally posted by WhiteEagle:

quote:

---

Originally posted by hardcore:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pleasemaranatha:
I do know some false prophets and teachers. But some of the ones you name are good not bad.

---

Which ones would those be?

---

Let's see, The Mormons preach a different Jesus, so do the Jehovah Witnesses, and the Muslims also preach as Different Jesus, as well as the New Age movement.

---

Pleasemaranatha mentioned that some that we think are bad, are actually good. That's what I was asking. Which ones are the good ones that we are misinformed about?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by hardcore:

quote:

---

Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Well, I didn't request that. I'm here, and I'm seeing lots of heresy, but not what you think it is.

---

Can you please tell us which heresy you are seeing?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by WhiteEagle:

---

quote:

---

WhiteEagle replies: Christians attacking other Christians over doctrinal side issues.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by hardcore:

....and still, Hisgrace, you come in over and over as if you were the "post police".

If indeed you are bothered so very much, why do you continue to enter? It is just baffling!

good grief.

---

by_grace!!!! Now there's a "grace" that's truly a sight for sore eyes around here.

I couldn't agree with you more; or HFHS or Caretaker.

The lack of discernment on this board, particularly in the "Exposing" forum, never ceases to amaze me; and yet, the bible tells us this would happen. How one can admit that they watch Benny Hinn or Kenneth Copeland and then turn around and try to convince themselves and others that they have discernment, is beyond me. They only fool themselves - darn near zero credibility for me at this point.

You're right, the "post police" in here are the very ones who whined and whined about these conversations; so much so that a new room was created. And yet here they are. Go figure. Apparently our threads weren't really that disturbing to them after all.

Oh well, as long as people continue to defend these false teachings, it gives us an opportunity to get the Truth out. Thankfully, not everyone will be deceived.

Good to see you! [/QB][/QUOTE]


Again:

WHAT IS TRUTH?"


If I were still going to the Baptist church of my childhood, I would most likely agree with you.

Praise God! He took me out of that Bondage of legalism and one-dimentionsal living.

God's TRUTH is found in Jesus Christ and is a LIVING, BREATHING, VITAL, and ABUNDANT AND DOESN'T LEAVE US WHERE WE WERE.


WE all see through the glass darkly, and what I see is the bondage in the darkness when people degrade things they do not yet understand.

The TRUTH takes us to the dark areas of our hearts and shines the light on it.

God is NOT one dimentional and flat like the pages on one's Bible.

I certainly don't know all Truth, like you think you do.
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
I love you too White Eagle; Actually, this that you speak of here is of personal importance to me, would you mind if I opended another thread with this quote below?

I would like to discuss some of this with you and with others, and Yahsway said something in her post that I think applies to this.

I believe that we can discuss this as adults and I would like to. I do not always agree with you; I dont agree with you on these teachers, but I do respect and understand your passion to not have people fail to see a spiritual side of things.

If bygrace is willing I would like to see her join us as well because she has personal knowledge of Mormonism and that is part of this that I would like to disguss. I will wait for your reply before starting a thread.

quote:

---

You see this is what I'm talking about. Linda, I love ya, but..... all this fuss about what Benny Hinn says about God being triune x 3.

It might surprise you that in scripture that Revelation talks about the 7 Spirit of God.

Rev.1:4, Rev. 3:1, and Rev 4:5.

Zechariah 3:9, 4:2, mentions about the seven spirits of God and in Zechariah 4:2-6 which is the vision of Zechariah of the 7 lights on the lampstand and the 2 witnessess. Altogether the 9 components is called the Word of the Lord to Zerubbabel by the angel. Then the well-known verse of Not by power, nor by might, but by My Spirit sayeth the Lord.

Zechariah 4:10 says that 7 is the number of the eyes of the Lord, which range throughout the earth.

God is more more more than we can fathom in His layers and facets and dimentions.

Yes I believe in the trinity concept due to 1 John in that the 3 bear witness in heaven, and other verses, but to remind you all, that the Word Trinity is NOT in the Bible. I could be wrong, and please correct me with scripture and verse, but I don't recall any verse in the Bible that says distinctly that "God in 3 persons, blessed Trinity". (that's from a song btw)

I don't know if Hinn is correct, but what he is spouting does NOT affect Salvation through Jesus Christ alone.


I stand by what I wrote to Caretaker. Writing pious words does not make one more spiritual. Even the disciples didn't recognize Jesus when He showed up after the Resurrection at first.

---

quote:

---

There are people right now who are in our churches believing they have all things and are blessed beyond measure and they are naked, and blind and luke warm! There are people who are sitting on church pews today that tomorrow may hear I never knew you. There are people right now in this world strugggling with their faith because some preacher is telling them that they are still dying of cancer because they have not enough faith! There are people right now as we speak in bondage to sin in their flesh because all they hear about in their church is how to get material wealth and their preacher doesnt preach or use the word sin. There are right now people in churches that cant pay their rent and the church doesnt know and couldnt help if they wanted to because the wealth of that church is being consumed by some speaker at a camp meeting where the people do flock looking for something that they are not getting in their own church.

---

quote:

---

When you tell me that that I can look around at your 400k home and 200k jet and what ever you can think of that you feel is blessing of God and tell me that you are living your reward... this is a sign of your faith... I say you are a liar because you do not have more faith than Paul and he had none of that.. you do not have more faith than a watchman Nee and he would have had no part of that! The Bible says we are blessed with all spiritual blessing in the heavenlies and in this life we will suffer because this world hates us as it hated him.

---

quote:

---

When you tell me that you are without sickness because of your great faith and your bold prayers and because you believe that by HIS stripes you are healed. I say why? Why do you think that you have more faith than Paul's companion Epaphroditus, who was sick... nigh to death? Why do you think that you have more faith than the one who goes to their death praising God while their body is ravished by cancer and their hair falls out and their pain is beyond measure? How true to the word of God would this message be for this saint with cancer that has peace, Joy and power in the Holy Ghost though her body is being devoured from the inside out? Which message speaks of God most to those who watch each of these lives? Which illustration speaks most loudly of God's majesty to the angels?????

---

quote:

---

When you tell me that because you just learned to believe God that he will give you the desires of your heart, just simply ask and believe and cars and planes and homes and new dresses what ever just come to you because you have learned to believe for them... and God just wills to bless you, I have to ask, why do you think that your faith is greater than the one that treks up a mountainside daily without shoes to preach Jesus to those in a remote village somewhere in India where people are dying and going to hell? Who is more in the will of God? How true to the word of God would your message of health wealth and prosperity and favormindedness ring in his ears?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SoftTouch:

quote:

---

Originally posted by WhiteEagle:

---

quote:

---

Hardcore writes: Can you please tell us which heresy you are seeing?

---

quote:

---

WhiteEagle replies: Christians attacking other Christians over doctrinal side issues.

---

What I see is that you are not Reading Linda's posts here or you would understand that those teachings are not side issues but Destructive Hersies.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SoftTouch:
Joyce,What they're saying is true. It was HisGrace and a few others who petitioned David (the owner of this board) to create this section so they didn't have to 'deal' with reading our threads exposing the Error and Falsehoods of certain teachers/self-proclaimed prophets. Now, the same folks who wanted this section so bad (so they didn't have to read this stuff) are coming in here and complaining... it doesn't make any sense to me.

I explained to you in private (because you asked me) that it's not that we don't 'like' anyone... it's about God's Word and keeping it Unadultrated or UnTwisted, and Prayerfully, in the process, pulling some folks out of the Fake Fire of the False Word Faith movement (as well as other Apostate movements which are on the rise).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SoftTouch:
Here are some IMPORTANT Points made by Sister Linda (Helpforhomeschoolers) in the above posts:

quote:

---

There are people right now who are in our churches believing they have all things and are blessed beyond measure and they are naked, and blind and luke warm! There are people who are sitting on church pews today that tomorrow may hear I never knew you. There are people right now in this world strugggling with their faith because some preacher is telling them that they are still dying of cancer because they have not enough faith! There are people right now as we speak in bondage to sin in their flesh because all they hear about in their church is how to get material wealth and their preacher doesnt preach or use the word sin. There are right now people in churches that cant pay their rent and the church doesnt know and couldnt help if they wanted to because the wealth of that church is being consumed by some speaker at a camp meeting where the people do flock looking for something that they are not getting in their own church.

---

quote:

---

When you tell me that that I can look around at your 400k home and 200k jet and what ever you can think of that you feel is blessing of God and tell me that you are living your reward... this is a sign of your faith... I say you are a liar because you do not have more faith than Paul and he had none of that.. you do not have more faith than a watchman Nee and he would have had no part of that! The Bible says we are blessed with all spiritual blessing in the heavenlies and in this life we will suffer because this world hates us as it hated him.

---

quote:

---

When you tell me that you are without sickness because of your great faith and your bold prayers and because you believe that by HIS stripes you are healed. I say why? Why do you think that you have more faith than Paul's companion Epaphroditus, who was sick... nigh to death? Why do you think that you have more faith than the one who goes to their death praising God while their body is ravished by cancer and their hair falls out and their pain is beyond measure? How true to the word of God would this message be for this saint with cancer that has peace, Joy and power in the Holy Ghost though her body is being devoured from the inside out? Which message speaks of God most to those who watch each of these lives? Which illustration speaks most loudly of God's majesty to the angels?????

---

quote:

---

When you tell me that because you just learned to believe God that he will give you the desires of your heart, just simply ask and believe and cars and planes and homes and new dresses what ever just come to you because you have learned to believe for them... and God just wills to bless you, I have to ask, why do you think that your faith is greater than the one that treks up a mountainside daily without shoes to preach Jesus to those in a remote village somewhere in India where people are dying and going to hell? Who is more in the will of God? How true to the word of God would your message of health wealth and prosperity and favormindedness ring in his ears?

---

To which I add a hardy AMEN! These are some of the Destructive Heresies that are being taught by Word Faith teachers! They are Lies from the Pit of Hell – a total Twisting of Scripture made by those who claim to be teachers of God’s Holy Word… they are the Wolves in Sheeps Clothing who are deceiving and making merchandise of you!

Regarding Benny Hinn… He has been PROVEN (by his own words) to be a False Prophet many times over. Why would anyone listen to someone who prophecies falsely (and not just once, but Several Times!)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by HisGrace:

However, I go where the Lord sends me to defend the truth.

---

Are you kidding me with this?

Between this comment and WhiteEagle saying that Benny Hinn is good, I'm actually speechless at the moment. There's nothing I could say right now that wouldn't sound unbelievably rude or unkind. Lord have mercy on us all.

I'm taking a break for a minute. Now would be a good time for me to take a long overdue trip to the grocery store.
 

---

Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 
Perhaps Hinn is a false prophet. I will leave that to the Lord as he is a servant of the Lord.


Then again, how long did the Jews wait for the Prophecies of the Old Testament?

Like Pleasemarantha stated, what is the(Hinn's) Fruit?
 

---

Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 
Linda

It would be an interesting study about the 7 spirits of God. I have never studied that specifically, but am aware that scripture doesn't implicitly state that God is triune exclusively. Trinity has been a solid doctrinal dogma of the Church.

God is mysterious to us to say the least.
 

---

Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by hardcore:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HisGrace:

However, I go where the Lord sends me to defend the truth.

---

Are you kidding me with this?

Between this comment and WhiteEagle saying that Benny Hinn is good, I'm actually speechless at the moment. There's nothing I could say right now that wouldn't sound unbelievably rude or unkind. Lord have mercy on us all.

I'm taking a break for a minute. Now would be a good time for me to take a long overdue trip to the grocery store.

---

Shake up is a good thing! Speechlessness can be wisdom.
 

---

Posted by Pleasemaranatha (Member # 5150) on :
 
Dear Hardcore,

I asked in a pm but you didn't answer yet so will post my question here?

I am serious! Which churches or religions are correct to attend?

Which television ministers are alright in all your opinions to watch where they would not be called false prophets.

What do suggest to us or unbelievers on the correct religion or tv ministry issues?????????

Is the 700 club alright in all your opinions?

With whom (which group of humans) can we worship or study with in all of your opinions?

thanks this is confusing
 

---

Posted by Pleasemaranatha (Member # 5150) on :
 
I have permission from BrotherJoe to post this. Please answer the post above please when you get time.

To Tell The Truth: Bearing A True Witness In A World Of Drama

Please don’t raise your hands, but how many of you have appeared in some sort of court before?

How many of you are aware that people have used and continue to use the "legal system" to ruin and destroy other people and to pervert what justice is all about.

Today we are going to be considering the 9th command which says “Do not bear false witness against your neighbor”

At the heart of this command stands the whole concept of justice—and we must not forget that Jesus came to establish a community of justice.

In order for there to be justice there needs to be truth. The cornerstone of the legal system is to be to be the truthfulness and honesty of those using it.

The problem that this command anticipates is people using the legal system and the courts to bring harm to other people.The way that this command anticipates people using false witness for such purposes is by their coming not as truth tellers but as false and malicious witnesses. ---False accusations against others, particularly in comparing it with the word of God, is what the 9th command specifically forbids.

Because what I am saying may seem as a new or strange take on 9th command please turn with me to Deuteronomy 19:15. In the book of Deuteronomy the 10 commandments are given in ch.5. Through the rest of the chapters of Deuteronomy the 10 commands are expanded up, clarified, and dealt with in some instances with case studies as it were. In Deut. 19:15 the 9th command is expanded upon when it says….. Hence proving my point to you that the 9th command first and foremost concerns the negative and untruthful things people will say about others while before the courts of people.

By the way: the principle and wisdom of having at least 2 witnesses in the judicial courts of the land to convict a person is carried on through into the operation into the church in the whole sphere of church discipline. For example in II Cor. 13:1 “Every matter must be established by 2 or 3 witnesses” and then in I Timothy 5:19 it says “Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by 2 or 3 witnesses”

By way of focus today, I want to walk you through some of the scriptures whereby false and accusing witnesses have destroyed innocent people. The applications and relevancy of this command will become obvious.

The scripture is full of examples of people using the legal system and the courts in a way that breaks the 9th command.

The scriptures recount for us incident after incident of people using their falase testimony to destroy and harm others.

Consider the account of Daniel in Daniel 6. Daniel, a Jew, in the land of Babylon was promoted far above all the other Babylonians around him. Jealously set in and as such those around him sought to find grounds for charges against him in his conduct of government affairs, but they were unable to do so. The scriptures tell us that because they were unable to find anything to charge him with , because he was trustworthy and neither corrupt nor negligent, that they schemed to find a reason for charging him on the basis of his faith in God. These schemers then convinced the king to change the laws, forcing Daniel to break the law in order to keep his faith. The result was this: God protected Daniel and those who accused him and schemed against him got their due reward.

Think also for a moment of the account of I Kings 21. A certain king named Ahab wanted a man named Naboth’s vineyard. Ahab offered to buy it, Naboth refused to sell it to him. Ahab went home and sulked until his wicked wife Jezebel came up with a plan to get Naboth’s vineyard. The plan involved these details recorded for us in the scriptures “Proclaim a day of fasting and seat Naboth in a prominent place among the people. But seat two scoundrels opposite him and have them testify that he has cursed both God and the king. Then take him out and stone him to death”. The plan went exactly that way to with the result that Ahab ended up with Naboth’s vineyard—but note this, God saw what happened and sent his prophet to Ahab with news of his impending judgment.

David had to deal with many who falsely accused him. In Psalms 35 he speaks of those who are his enemies and how they hate him without reason and devise false accusations against him and many others. David’s cry to God is this “O LORD, you have seen this; be not silent. Do not be far from me, O LORD. Awake, and rise to my defense! Contend for me, my God and Lord. Vindicate me in your righteousness, O LORD my God; do not let them gloat over me.”

Indeed, God did rescue David, putting to shame his enemies and exalting his chosen servant.

There are other OT examples of people bringing false accusations in court against others but think for a moment of these New Testament examples.

Think firstly of our Savior Jesus and his being accused falsely.

Here we see Israel’s judicial system at its very worst, condemning the one who authored it.

The Pharisees were continually on the lookout in regards to finding things to charge Jesus with. They were also scheming and thinking of ways to get him and arrest him. Why? Because they hated him and wanted him dead.

When you of Jesus’ trial in the scriptures it says “they accused him of many things”. They accused him of opposing taxes to Caesar. They accused him of subverting their nation and of stirring up the people everywhere. They accused him of claiming to be the Christ, a king, etc, etc.

What was it that distinguished Jesus at his trial in face of all the accusations?

1. He did not reply to their charges. He remained silent and the scriptures say that Pilate was amazed at this

2. In the words of Pilate “I find no basis for a charge against him”

Jesus was innocent and yet he went to the cross dying a criminals death—not for his owns sins, because he was sinless, but for our sins which he bore upon the cross.


Another N.T example of someone being falsely accused in court is Paul.

Because of his telling others about Jesus and convincing many people that Jesus was God, that he was the Savior, that he had risen from the dead, and that he must be turned to for salvation and forgiveness, he found for himself many enemies. These enemies of him continually sought to arrest him and kill him. Hence, time and time again Paul found himself in court and on trial for his faith, defending himself against the false accusations of many witnesses.

God helped Paul and gave him the words to speak in his defense.


The Bible tells that as Christians we can expect to experience similar opposition as Paul, Jesus, and the other saints of the Bible.

Because the people of the world hate the light of God’s revelation it means that they will hate us when we declare to them God’s truths. As a result of this, we can and must expect opposition and must not be surprised if we ever find ourselves on trial and falsely accused because of our faith in Jesus Christ.

How are we to respond if people falsely accuse us in the public square and before the courts and in front of audiences?

I Peter 2:11-12 “Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us."

Consider also Luke 12:11-12 where Jesus says “When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say”

I Peter 2:20-23 says “But when you do good and suffer for it, if you take it patiently, this is commendable before God. For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example; that you should follow His steps: “Who committed no sin, nor was deceit found in his mouth” who, when he was reviled/maligned, did not revile in return; when he suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously.


We must not be surprised if the people of the world maliciously use their false testimony lagainst us who are God’s people.

If such happens, and the Bible warns us it can and most certainly will, we can take comfort in the fact, that even if we suffer great loss, our God will not let the sin of those who commit such wicked deeds go unpunished.

Daniels accusers were eaten lions. David in Psalms 109:29 speaks of how his accusers will be overcome with shame. Ahab and Jezebel came to terrible ends for their murder of Naboth.

The point is this: Vengeance is the Lord’s and He will not let the wicked go unpunished for their deeds. He will not let those who use the courts to destroy and ruin others go unpunished.

ONE VERY IMPORTANT THING TO CONSIDER THAT IS DIRECTLY CONNECTED WITH THE 9TH COMMAND which says “Do not bear false witness against another person”

Satan is the chief accuser of those of us who are Christians and in the courts of God he falsely accuses us. The Bible tells us that he is the Father of lies and that in every respect he hates and wishes harm against those who are the children of God.

Please turn with me to Zechariah 3:1-5

What an amazing picture. Note the salvation picture here as well. When we came to Christ what did God do for us. Clean robes, purified, made holy, able to come before him. Satan rebuked.

Please also turn with me to Revelations 12:10. In v.10 Satan is called the accuser of the brethren who accuses before our God day and night.

In the courts of God, Satan has accused and it seems continues to accuse the saints of God. Yet for us who are Christians, there stands for us One who is our defender; the Lord Jesus Christ, who testifies to God the Father on our behalf that we are his and that his blood has been shed for the forgiveness of our sins.

By way of encouragement listen to this verse from I John 2:1 “My little children, these things I write to you, that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.”

God’s justice will reign though and in the mean time we are to be what Jesus came to establish- a people of justice who use our tongues at all times and in all places not to harm others, but to benefit others and to praise our God.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Father, We thank you for your word and ask that you would help us. Take away the offenses of others and fill us with your Spirit. Let us not be wrapped up in the accusations of this world, but give us peace that we may be without blemish. Forgive those Lord that have done wrong against us and show them your truth, not for our sake Lord but that you may be real to them, in their hearts and in their lives.

In Jesus name

AMEN
 

---

Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by hardcore:
I'm taking a break for a minute. Now would be a good time for me to take a long overdue trip to the grocery store.

---

Scoot over Sis... I'm comin with ya! Think I'll pick up some Tylenol while we're there
 

---

Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pleasemaranatha:
There are other OT examples of people bringing false accusations in court against others but think for a moment of these New Testament examples.

Think firstly of our Savior Jesus and his being accused falsely.

Here we see Israel’s judicial system at its very worst, condemning the one who authored it.

The Pharisees were continually on the lookout in regards to finding things to charge Jesus with. They were also scheming and thinking of ways to get him and arrest him. Why? Because they hated him and wanted him dead.

When you of Jesus’ trial in the scriptures it says “they accused him of many things”. They accused him of opposing taxes to Caesar. They accused him of subverting their nation and of stirring up the people everywhere. They accused him of claiming to be the Christ, a king, etc, etc.

What was it that distinguished Jesus at his trial in face of all the accusations?

1. He did not reply to their charges. He remained silent and the scriptures say that Pilate was amazed at this

2. In the words of Pilate “I find no basis for a charge against him”

Jesus was innocent and yet he went to the cross dying a criminals death—not for his owns sins, because he was sinless, but for our sins which he bore upon the cross.

---

quote:

---

I never petitioned David to open an Exposing forum, but was really delighted when he decided to do so, and thought, "Good - out of sight, out of mind."

However, I go where the Lord sends me to defend the truth. I don't want to go to Africa either, but if the Lord told me to go, I would have no choice but to obey.

No ministry is perfect, but I have never seen anything in the WOF'ers doctrine that would hinder anyone's salvation.

---

quote:

---

That isn't our intention, but anyone is welcome to read the posts. If you see that, we need to be informed because if David deletes them we won't realize what we said was offensive, the same goes if it is intentional. However, I feel it's best to tell us in PM rather than opening a whole drag out battle over it and then if that person continues, I would suggest sending David a PM and letting him know.

---

quote:

---

Thanks David. Hoping that this will somewhat help solve the problem of a very difficult situation.

---

quote:

---

David,

I want to thank you just ever so much for your posting in which I'm so much in agreement with.
I've wanted for so long for the focus to be only on Jesus Christ and for there to be a really good bible study in the bible study section where it should be and so have many others - some were those who've left. With your help, David, Carmela is attempting to make it be a reality and I pray also for God's help to make it be a reality so very soon. There is so much I and others want to learn.

You provided two sections for those who wish to expose the false teachers and that's a very good thing so that they can stay in their own section when they feel the need to be there and post there for that's their perogative to do so.

From what I read in the above postings it seems as though some attacks are continuing against Red Kermit and Carmela and this should not be happening because it's totally uncalled for. Also to the one who said that when I post, I'm "saluting." I'm not "saluting" however I'm encouraging. I also think that sarcasm and rudeness are totally uncalled for.

Please just let us have a truly good bible study in a bible study section and those of you who do not want to participate do not have to. The two sections for exposing false teachings are there on this board for those who wish to use it.

Jesus Christ needs to be and should be the focus and now please let us have our bible study in our bible study section.

---

quote:

---

Perhaps Hinn is a false prophet. I will leave that to the Lord as he is a servant of the Lord.


Then again, how long did the Jews wait for the Prophecies of the Old Testament?

Like Pleasemarantha stated, what is the(Hinn's) Fruit?

---

quote:

---

I want a REAL Christianity, not a theory. I want the REAL God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
I want relationship with The GOD who resurrected Christ from the dead and relationship through Jesus Christ our Savior. and calls (me) His friend.

I believe in the God who parted the Red Sea, and rolled away the Stone, and Who Created the Heavens and the Earth. He's Holy and He's Awesome and Mighty. Lightning comes out of His arm, and the whole earth shakes at his Voice.

I don't know what else to say.

God declared His Word NEVER GOES FORTH VOID.

---

quote:

---

Icon 1 posted April 01, 2006 04:24 PM Profile for WhiteEagle Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote

quote:Originally posted by SoftTouch:
Here are some IMPORTANT Points made by Sister Linda (Helpforhomeschoolers) in the above posts:

quote:There are people right now who are in our churches believing they have all things and are blessed beyond measure and they are naked, and blind and luke warm! There are people who are sitting on church pews today that tomorrow may hear I never knew you. There are people right now in this world strugggling with their faith because some preacher is telling them that they are still dying of cancer because they have not enough faith! There are people right now as we speak in bondage to sin in their flesh because all they hear about in their church is how to get material wealth and their preacher doesnt preach or use the word sin. There are right now people in churches that cant pay their rent and the church doesnt know and couldnt help if they wanted to because the wealth of that church is being consumed by some speaker at a camp meeting where the people do flock looking for something that they are not getting in their own church.

quote:When you tell me that that I can look around at your 400k home and 200k jet and what ever you can think of that you feel is blessing of God and tell me that you are living your reward... this is a sign of your faith... I say you are a liar because you do not have more faith than Paul and he had none of that.. you do not have more faith than a watchman Nee and he would have had no part of that! The Bible says we are blessed with all spiritual blessing in the heavenlies and in this life we will suffer because this world hates us as it hated him.

quote:When you tell me that you are without sickness because of your great faith and your bold prayers and because you believe that by HIS stripes you are healed. I say why? Why do you think that you have more faith than Paul's companion Epaphroditus, who was sick... nigh to death? Why do you think that you have more faith than the one who goes to their death praising God while their body is ravished by cancer and their hair falls out and their pain is beyond measure? How true to the word of God would this message be for this saint with cancer that has peace, Joy and power in the Holy Ghost though her body is being devoured from the inside out? Which message speaks of God most to those who watch each of these lives? Which illustration speaks most loudly of God's majesty to the angels?????

quote:When you tell me that because you just learned to believe God that he will give you the desires of your heart, just simply ask and believe and cars and planes and homes and new dresses what ever just come to you because you have learned to believe for them... and God just wills to bless you, I have to ask, why do you think that your faith is greater than the one that treks up a mountainside daily without shoes to preach Jesus to those in a remote village somewhere in India where people are dying and going to hell? Who is more in the will of God? How true to the word of God would your message of health wealth and prosperity and favormindedness ring in his ears?

To which I add a hardy AMEN! These are some of the Destructive Heresies that are being taught by Word Faith teachers! They are Lies from the Pit of Hell – a total Twisting of Scripture made by those who claim to be teachers of God’s Holy Word… they are the Wolves in Sheeps Clothing who are deceiving and making merchandise of you!

Regarding Benny Hinn… He has been PROVEN (by his own words) to be a False Prophet many times over. Why would anyone listen to someone who prophecies falsely (and not just once, but Several Times!)

Softouch,

Linda is correct those things do happen, but they also happen in churches that are "so called preaching" what You would agree with, as the Truth.


Truth without the Holy Spirit's leading and the willingness of each person to submit and humble themselves to God alone is legalism.


Truth without LOVE of God is legalism.

Many churches of all brands do good for the Kingdom, and (some churches you would probably agree with in their teachings) have split due to adultry by the pastor, or deacons, or issues over how the MONEY should be spent.

Some churches which are those of whom, you would be agreeing with doctrinally split over even more petty reasons, and have "members" in them who practice all sorts of deviant behavior in private, yet put on a pious face for the world.

---

quote:

---

Linda

It would be an interesting study about the 7 spirits of God. I have never studied that specifically, but am aware that scripture doesn't implicitly state that God is triune exclusively. Trinity has been a solid doctrinal dogma of the Church.

God is mysterious to us to say the least

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:

quote:

---

I never petitioned David to open an Exposing forum, but was really delighted when he decided to do so, and thought, "Good - out of sight, out of mind."

However, I go where the Lord sends me to defend the truth. I don't want to go to Africa either, but if the Lord told me to go, I would have no choice but to obey.

No ministry is perfect, but I have never seen anything in the WOF'ers doctrine that would hinder anyone's salvation.

---

Technically you are correct HisGrace, it was not you that wrote to david, it was our sister and your friend from another board whom you invited to join us here, Carmela and clearly from her posts on the subject she went and made that petition on behalf of you and GrandmaJoe as well as herself:

Here Carmela says "Our" intention: Who is this "Our"? Was it not you and Grandma Jo? There were only 5 who voted against these kind of threads in your little poll. I think it is pretty clear who at least 4 of those 5 are and not to difficult to know who the 5th one was. One person had no opinion.

---

This is pure speculation HFHS. I had probably spoken to Carmela concerning being frustrated about apostacy permeating every thread and she probably was too. The dialogue between her and David was strictly her doing and I didn't have anything to do with what they were discussing with each other. I have thanked her different time since about being faithful to her convictions. ALL OF THE CREDIT GOES TO CARMELA.

Who made this quote?

quote:

---

That isn't our intention, but anyone is welcome to read the posts. If you see that, we need to be informed because if David deletes them we won't realize what we said was offensive, the same goes if it is intentional. However, I feel it's best to tell us in PM rather than opening a whole drag out battle over it and then if that person continues, I would suggest sending David a PM and letting him know.

---

quote:

---

This is you: Thanks David. Hoping that this will somewhat help solve the problem of a very difficult situation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
I maybe wrong and am I just speaking from personal memory, but it seems that it is not a matter with Hinn that he has prophesied somethings that have not yet come to pass but that he has prophesied some things that DID not come to pass when and as he prophesied they would. I cannot remmber the specific one that comes to mind, but I remember talking about it in a Bible study group and people talking about viewing to see it come to pass.

I would ask you, can someone prophesy Thus say it the Lord... falsely and be a servant of the Lord? Scripturally? What does the scripture say about those that prophesy in this manner falsely?

---

Here ya go, I put a thread here that lists several of Hinns False Prophecies: http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=53;t=000119
 

---

Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 
HFHS would you please let us know who made the quotes in your 8:00 pm post.
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Here is the thread:

http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=003898

You are right HisGrace, it is purely speculative on my part to think that the "our" was you and Grandma Jo. I should not have done that,no matter how much reason I had for speculating... kind of like I should not have specualated that Paul took a Nazarite vow. Right? I am sometimes slow to learn, but I usually do eventually learn. I should have learned about speculating from our discussion on Paul's Nazarite vow and I did not. I have now I believe learned to take much greater care not to speculate. You have made a very good and vaild point and I hope you will accept my apologies, and I am glad to give Carmela all the credit as I can at least respect her reasons and she did demonstrate her honesty in those reasons with her actions.
 

---

Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 
Apology accepted. I'm sure I have read a scripture somewhere that says not to fail in forgiving your fellow brother or sister, because the next time it may be your turn to ask for forgiveness.
 

---

Posted by Pleasemaranatha (Member # 5150) on :
 
I thank God for His Love and understanding today.

Satan just played an April fool's joke on this message board. He lost though...and always will.

Glory to God

nite all

We are blessed
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 

quote:

---

Satan just played an April fool's joke on this message board. He lost though...and always will.

---

Well was it funny???? nothing new, though that I missed it, my family teases me all the time for not getting the jokes people tell.
 

---

Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on :
 
Actually, when I said (our) it wasn't meant to be thrown up at others. See, it wasn't too difficult to read each person's posts and see that I wasn't the only one that was getting tired of the posts that were plaguing the forum before. Not to mention how having to read comments from people that were putting each other down and sometimes just plain rude.

I didn't go to anyone in the forum and ask permission to talk to David. I did that on my own. See, although school keeps me away sometimes for a bit, I like posting here because it's a small forum and has some great people. People that are actually seeking the heart of God, in spite of whether we agree with each other or not. I have a feeling that part of the reason this forum is small is because people that don't agree with what others feel believe as being truth are pushed away quickly. I saw that many times and although it troubled me, I stayed out of it for the most part. See, Jesus loves EVERYONE. He even died for the sinners. You and I were once lost also and it is only through His divine revelation that we can see the truth. I don't put anyone down for their beliefs because instead I choose to praise God that at least people are searching for the truth. I pray for these people and wait for God to open their eyes. I can witness to others, but as Jesus told Peter (I'm quite tired but I believe it was Peter but either way the point is the same)it's only through revelation that he was able to see the truth.

I am so grateful that David was willing to open this forum though because I don't want to have to read and focus on other people's ministries. I want my focus to be on Christ alone. So, I like to have bible studies in that forum and not put my focus on things of this world. Running other ministries down is God's job, not mine. He will need to open their eyes. My focus is on Christ alone and sometimes I would read a post and not realize what it was about until after I read it. I love the Lord will all of my heart and my desire is to know Him more each day. I fall short because I'm not perfect but I walk daily with the goal of becoming more like Him. This isn't done by putting my focus on what others are doing, it's done by keeping my focus solely on what God is doing.

HFHS I would like to thank you for your kind words about me. I actually thought most people here hated me since I asked david to start a new forum. I don't mind if people disagree with me, but I hate reading posts where people are attacking each other. I know that BA wasn't thrilled with me asking for a seperate space for you either, but I wasn't trying to cause any division between us as individuals. My only intent was to have the bible study section be for bible study alone. After all, that was the name of that section. It wasn't a personal vendetta.
 

---