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Author
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Topic: once saved...always saved?
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kskibble
Advanced Member
Member # 4858
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posted
"I guess what I am trying to say is this: I know good works does not lead to salvation, but salvation leads to good works, and salvation, true salvation, leads to a growing relationship with Jesus Christ. You can't just say, "I believe in Jesus", and walk away and never make any attempt to really know him, and expect to have eternal salvation. Thats all I'm trying to say."
Eric,
If this were true, then how do you explain those who have never been saved until the day they were on their deathbed? They're in a hospital, it's their last hours. Someone goes in to minister to them. They accept Christ & get saved & die. They've never done any good works for the Lord, they've never made it past the "milk" stage. Yet, they've received salvation. Just asking. ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif)
Posts: 30 | From: Kansas | Registered: Jul 2005
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EMoor
Community Member
Member # 4880
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posted
I guess what I am trying to say is this: I know good works does not lead to salvation, but salvation leads to good works, and salvation, true salvation, leads to a growing relationship with Jesus Christ. You can't just say, "I believe in Jesus", and walk away and never make any attempt to really know him, and expect to have eternal salvation. Thats all I'm trying to say.
Eric
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As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
Posts: 9 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jul 2005
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BORN AGAIN
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posted
1 Corinthians 3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual, but as to carnal, even as to babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for until now you were not able to bear it, neither yet are you now able.
Miguel, note that Paul calls them brethren and babes in Christ. At the very least, my housemate would have been a babe in Christ IF he believed what he was reading?
Now, admittedly, I did not know him well when he was reading the Bible five times, and it may well be that eventhough he read it five times, it may well be that he was never able to mix faith with his reading:
Hebrews 4:2
For unto us also was the gospel preached, as well as to them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them who heard it.
So we may presumably be able to say that he had never mixed faith with it, but what if he did believe it for a time?
The next question would be, Is it possible to believe the gospel for a time and then to unbelieve it?
Certainly the experience of Old Israel was that they believed the LORD God of Israel for many years, but afterwards they abandoned the LORD and wanted an earthly king and began to worhip Baal and the golden calves of Jeroboam I.
They quit believing in the LORD and the Lord cut them out of the good olive tree:
Romans 11
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted back in: for God is able to graff them in again.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Be not highminded, but fear.
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not you.
From this I deduce that God will cut off who does not remain in belief. Right now we are in because we have faith, meaning we belief what God has said.
But if we like many Old Israelites alsto stop believing, then we too will be cut off again.
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
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Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47
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posted
Reading the bible is not the assurance of ones salvation, it is the Work of God that assure a sinful man eternal life.
"If thou continue in his goodness; meaning not the love, grace, and free favour of God, or the grace of the Spirit, a continuance in which no "if" is to be put upon; for such who are interested in the love of God always continue in it, and nothing can separate them from it; and such as have the graces of the Spirit implanted in them, as faith, hope, and love, can never lose them; these always remain in them, and they in the possession of them, though not always in the exercise of them; but the goodness of God in a church state is here meant, as the means of grace and comfort, the ministration of the word and ordinances; and the sense is, if thou dost not despise the riches of divine goodness in a church relation, if thou dost not abuse it, or walk unworthy of it, if thou abidest by it, and retainest a value for it, thou wilt still share the advantages of it:"
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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BORN AGAIN
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kskibble writes quote:
if one who claims to be saved can become unsaved...they were never really saved to begin with. and now i'm done. *smiles sweetly*
My housemate read the Bible 5 times through and he was a believer....until the day came when he went to university....
At university he learned about science and biology and zoology and geology and anthropology and carbon dating, and later about Darwin and natural selection and adaptation and random mutation and:
He stopped believing in the Bible and he changed over to believing the above "evidence" instead.
He was a believing bornagain Christian during the years he was faithfully reading the Bible and truly believed and was saved, until he decided that the university answers were closer to what "really happened back there".
He was not able to believe until the end and now he is no longer saved because of unbelief.
Romans 11
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, IF you continue in His goodness: otherwise you also shall be cut off.
23 And they also, IF they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted back in: for God is able to graft them in again.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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kskibble
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posted
if one who claims to be saved can become unsaved...they were never really saved to begin with. and now i'm done. *smiles sweetly*
Posts: 30 | From: Kansas | Registered: Jul 2005
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Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47
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posted
I was thinking on this quote and really tells a lot;
quote:
Several years ago I was discussing eternal security with another preacher. In the course of the conversation I read John 10:28, ". . neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
The preacher interrupted and said, "Yes. But the Bible does not say that we cannot get out of His hand."
I responded, "You do not build doctrine on what the Bible doesn't say. Rather, you build it on what the Bible does say." I continued, "The Bible says, 'neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.' You are a man, aren't you?"
"Why, yes," he said.
"In that case, you could not pluck yourself out of His hand either because the Bible says 'any man.' 1)
John 6:39 says, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." It is God's will that no saved person will ever be lost. He says He will "lose nothing." And since we are at least something, this means that we can never be lost again.
How wonderful is the sustaining power of God that even our own nature cannot plug our self away from Him when He have given His children to the Lord Jesus Christ, oh blessed assurance!
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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BORN AGAIN
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Emoor writes quote:
If we do nothing more than go to the altar, if we don't study God's word, if we don't use our spiritual gifts that we all have, if we continue to deliberatley live a sinful life, than I believe that there will be no salvation.
Salvatoin has nothing to do with these things. Only continuous believing to the end in Jesus's Exchanged Life for ours will get us salvation. It is therefore possible to "un-save" oneself by stopping to believe in Jesus's Exchanged Life for ours:
Hebrews 3:6
But Christ as a son over His own house; whose house are we, IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Romans 11
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, IF you continue in His goodness: otherwise you also shall be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
1 Peter 1:13
Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
So we can keep salvation IF we believe unto the end; else, IF we move back into unbelief, we also shall be cut off the olive tree of Israel again.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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LaurieFL
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Member # 3794
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posted
I think the distinction to be made here and the thought that actually links you two together in your doctrine is that a genuine, sincere conversion creates a desperate hunger and thirst for God, His word, and His righteousness. It is something we grow in every day and we don't do these things out of "works" but because we are new creatures in Christ. A Christian inhabited by the Holy Spirit is sorely grieved by sin.
Posts: 700 | Registered: Aug 2004
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EMoor
Community Member
Member # 4880
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posted
Lets just agree to disagree. I'm not going to change your opinion and you aren't going to change mine.
God Bless
Eric
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As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
Posts: 9 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jul 2005
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kskibble
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Member # 4858
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posted
"If we do nothing more than go to the altar, if we don't study God's word, if we don't use our spiritual gifts that we all have, if we continue to deliberatley live a sinful life, than I believe that there will be no salvation."
These things you just listed...are they not considered works? Because we can't obtain salvation through works.
Here is something I found in my Wilmington's Guide to the Bible:
It should be noted that we said "sin" & not "sins". True repentance involves the turning from one specific sin, the previous rejection of Christ. Jesus spelled this out very clearly for us. "Nevertheless, I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, righteousness & of judgement: of sin, because they believe not on me; of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more. Of judgement because the prince of this world is judged."
God is not primarily interested in convincing a sinner to give up smoking, swearing, drinking & illicit sex, as bad as these may be, for this will never save him. His great sin which will eventually condemn him forever is the rejection of Jesus Christ. Repentance therefore deals with a turning from this horrible crime of spurning Calvary.
Just my 2 cents added to your two cents
Posts: 30 | From: Kansas | Registered: Jul 2005
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bygrace
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Member # 4847
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posted
You are right Mary! ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
that is what is referred to when the term false conversion is used.
There is a great sermon on true and false conversion by Ray Comfort.
and his other good one is "Hell's best kept secret"
web page
True and False Conversion - transcript
Posts: 162 | Registered: Jul 2005
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kskibble
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posted
Well, if it's false conversion then it's not an actual conversion then is it?
This was meant for people who genuinely are saved but worry about losing their salvation. The way it was explained to me is that, if they were truly of us then they would have remained with us.
but, if they have left us it is because they were never of us to begin with.
One is either saved or not saved. There is no middle ground.
Posts: 30 | From: Kansas | Registered: Jul 2005
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EMoor
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Member # 4880
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by bygrace:
[QUOTE] I do however, believe there are far more false converts out there than we could imagine.
And I agree with you also.
Eric
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As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
Posts: 9 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jul 2005
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bygrace
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Member # 4847
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posted
quote:
I know of people who, when they were a kid, they gave their heart to Jesus, but grew up to live a sinful life. Well, this person was told by another person of this mentality that that was okay, because they were saved once and thats all that matters. I say, wrong!
I agree totally! I do however, believe there are far more false converts out there than we could imagine. There is a great site called Lost in Church..
bygrace
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EMoor
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by bygrace:
[QB] [QUOTE]If we do nothing more than go to the altar, if we don't study God's word, if we don't use our spiritual gifts that we all have, if we continue to deliberatley live a sinful life, than I believe that there will be no salvation.
Would this not be an indication of a false conversion?
If you go to the verse that I quoted, it says, "...for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age...", suggesting that these are people who had a genuine conversion and turned away from it.
I agree with all that you said, and I already knew the things that you wrote. I don't have any confusion as to the concept of faith and good works. I simply have a problem with the whole once saved always saved mentality. I know of people who, when they were a kid, they gave their heart to Jesus, but grew up to live a sinful life. Well, this person was told by another person of this mentality that that was okay, because they were saved once and thats all that matters. I say, wrong! I'm not suggesting that this person as an adult cannot rededicate his life to Christ and then go on to live a fruitful life for Him, I am suggesting that if that person is relying on that confession of faith that they made at 10, 12, or even 15 years old to get them into heaven without really knowing Christ, then I am afraid that they are wrong.
Again, just my .02 worth.
Eric
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As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
Posts: 9 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jul 2005
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bygrace
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quote:
If we do nothing more than go to the altar, if we don't study God's word, if we don't use our spiritual gifts that we all have, if we continue to deliberatley live a sinful life, than I believe that there will be no salvation.
Would this not be an indication of a false conversion?
consider this:The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard to reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). In reality, Paul and James did not disagree at all. The only point of disagreement some people claim is over the relationship between faith and works. Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9) while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his life – then he likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).
Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their life is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17)! James and Paul do not disagree on their teaching on salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that faith in Christ produces good works
Now, concerning Hebrews 6:4-6...
This passage does not teach that one can lose his salvation through disbelief or apostacy.
These verses refer to a hypothetical situation whereby the author stresses what would happen to a saved person if he could fall away.
The author does not believe that one can lose his salvation or that his readers had; but he so speaks to demonstrate the folly some might have in imagining that they can turn back to Judaism without suffering loss.
Though the author is not writing about his readers (verse 4, those, he still is writing for their sakes (verse 9, you.
If they shall fall away is the translation given to the fifth participle of the passage.
This is a legitimate and even commomn grammatical usage by the author within the warning passages (2:; 10:236; and even 6:8.)
The first four participles refer to actual blessings whereas number five descibes a potential situation, and so can be translated unlike the first four.
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EMoor
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While I agree with all of the verses that the Dr. quotes in the article, I would call your attention to some other verses. If you look at Hebrews 6:4-6, it says, "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." (NIV) It refers to people falling away, which means to lose their salvation. It goes on to state in verse 11, "We want each of you to show this same dilligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure", referring to the works and love that they were showing to God's people.
While I believe that we are saved by faith alone, I also believe that we have to do more than just say that we believe, we also have to grow in our relationship with Jesus. If we do nothing more than go to the altar, if we don't study God's word, if we don't use our spiritual gifts that we all have, if we continue to deliberatley live a sinful life, than I believe that there will be no salvation.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Eric
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As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
Posts: 9 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jul 2005
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Miguel
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Member # 47
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posted
Thank you I enjoy it very much.
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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