quote:

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If we do nothing more than go to the altar, if we don't study God's word, if we don't use our spiritual gifts that we all have, if we continue to deliberatley live a sinful life, than I believe that there will be no salvation.

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quote:

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Originally posted by bygrace:
[QB] [QUOTE]If we do nothing more than go to the altar, if we don't study God's word, if we don't use our spiritual gifts that we all have, if we continue to deliberatley live a sinful life, than I believe that there will be no salvation.

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quote:

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I know of people who, when they were a kid, they gave their heart to Jesus, but grew up to live a sinful life. Well, this person was told by another person of this mentality that that was okay, because they were saved once and thats all that matters. I say, wrong!

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quote:

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Originally posted by bygrace:
[QUOTE] I do however, believe there are far more false converts out there than we could imagine.

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And I agree with you also.

Eric
 

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Posted by kskibble (Member # 4858) on :
 
Well, if it's false conversion then it's not an actual conversion then is it?
This was meant for people who genuinely are saved but worry about losing their salvation. The way it was explained to me is that, if they were truly of us then they would have remained with us.
but, if they have left us it is because they were never of us to begin with.
One is either saved or not saved. There is no middle ground.
 

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Posted by bygrace (Member # 4847) on :
 
You are right Mary!

that is what is referred to when the term false conversion is used.

There is a great sermon on true and false conversion by Ray Comfort.

and his other good one is "Hell's best kept secret"

web page
True and False Conversion - transcript
 

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Posted by kskibble (Member # 4858) on :
 
"If we do nothing more than go to the altar, if we don't study God's word, if we don't use our spiritual gifts that we all have, if we continue to deliberatley live a sinful life, than I believe that there will be no salvation."

These things you just listed...are they not considered works? Because we can't obtain salvation through works.

Here is something I found in my Wilmington's Guide to the Bible:
It should be noted that we said "sin" & not "sins". True repentance involves the turning from one specific sin, the previous rejection of Christ. Jesus spelled this out very clearly for us. "Nevertheless, I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, righteousness & of judgement: of sin, because they believe not on me; of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more. Of judgement because the prince of this world is judged."
God is not primarily interested in convincing a sinner to give up smoking, swearing, drinking & illicit sex, as bad as these may be, for this will never save him. His great sin which will eventually condemn him forever is the rejection of Jesus Christ. Repentance therefore deals with a turning from this horrible crime of spurning Calvary.

Just my 2 cents added to your two cents
 

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Posted by EMoor (Member # 4880) on :
 
Lets just agree to disagree. I'm not going to change your opinion and you aren't going to change mine.

God Bless
Eric
 

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Posted by LaurieFL (Member # 3794) on :
 
I think the distinction to be made here and the thought that actually links you two together in your doctrine is that a genuine, sincere conversion creates a desperate hunger and thirst for God, His word, and His righteousness. It is something we grow in every day and we don't do these things out of "works" but because we are new creatures in Christ. A Christian inhabited by the Holy Spirit is sorely grieved by sin.
 

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Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
Emoor writes

quote:

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If we do nothing more than go to the altar, if we don't study God's word, if we don't use our spiritual gifts that we all have, if we continue to deliberatley live a sinful life, than I believe that there will be no salvation.

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Salvatoin has nothing to do with these things. Only continuous believing to the end in Jesus's Exchanged Life for ours will get us salvation. It is therefore possible to "un-save" oneself by stopping to believe in Jesus's Exchanged Life for ours:

Hebrews 3:6
But Christ as a son over His own house; whose house are we, IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Romans 11
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, IF you continue in His goodness: otherwise you also shall be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

1 Peter 1:13
Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

So we can keep salvation IF we believe unto the end; else, IF we move back into unbelief, we also shall be cut off the olive tree of Israel again.

God bless, BORN AGAIN
 

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Posted by Miguel (Member # 47) on :
 
I was thinking on this quote and really tells a lot;

quote:

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Several years ago I was discussing eternal security with another preacher. In the course of the conversation I read John 10:28, ". . neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

The preacher interrupted and said, "Yes. But the Bible does not say that we cannot get out of His hand."

I responded, "You do not build doctrine on what the Bible doesn't say. Rather, you build it on what the Bible does say." I continued, "The Bible says, 'neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.' You are a man, aren't you?"

"Why, yes," he said.

"In that case, you could not pluck yourself out of His hand either because the Bible says 'any man.' 1)

John 6:39 says, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." It is God's will that no saved person will ever be lost. He says He will "lose nothing." And since we are at least something, this means that we can never be lost again.

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quote:

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if one who claims to be saved can become unsaved...they were never really saved to begin with. and now i'm done. *smiles sweetly*

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My housemate read the Bible 5 times through and he was a believer....until the day came when he went to university....

At university he learned about science and biology and zoology and geology and anthropology and carbon dating, and later about Darwin and natural selection and adaptation and random mutation and:

He stopped believing in the Bible and he changed over to believing the above "evidence" instead.

He was a believing bornagain Christian during the years he was faithfully reading the Bible and truly believed and was saved, until he decided that the university answers were closer to what "really happened back there".

He was not able to believe until the end and now he is no longer saved because of unbelief.

Romans 11
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, IF you continue in His goodness: otherwise you also shall be cut off.

23 And they also, IF they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted back in: for God is able to graft them in again.

God bless, BORN AGAIN
 

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Posted by Miguel (Member # 47) on :
 
Reading the bible is not the assurance of ones salvation, it is the Work of God that assure a sinful man eternal life.

"If thou continue in his goodness; meaning not the love, grace, and free favour of God, or the grace of the Spirit, a continuance in which no "if" is to be put upon; for such who are interested in the love of God always continue in it, and nothing can separate them from it; and such as have the graces of the Spirit implanted in them, as faith, hope, and love, can never lose them; these always remain in them, and they in the possession of them, though not always in the exercise of them; but the goodness of God in a church state is here meant, as the means of grace and comfort, the ministration of the word and ordinances; and the sense is, if thou dost not despise the riches of divine goodness in a church relation, if thou dost not abuse it, or walk unworthy of it, if thou abidest by it, and retainest a value for it, thou wilt still share the advantages of it:"
 

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Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
1 Corinthians 3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual, but as to carnal, even as to babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for until now you were not able to bear it, neither yet are you now able.

Miguel, note that Paul calls them brethren and babes in Christ. At the very least, my housemate would have been a babe in Christ IF he believed what he was reading?

Now, admittedly, I did not know him well when he was reading the Bible five times, and it may well be that eventhough he read it five times, it may well be that he was never able to mix faith with his reading:

Hebrews 4:2
For unto us also was the gospel preached, as well as to them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them who heard it.

So we may presumably be able to say that he had never mixed faith with it, but what if he did believe it for a time?

The next question would be, Is it possible to believe the gospel for a time and then to unbelieve it?

Certainly the experience of Old Israel was that they believed the LORD God of Israel for many years, but afterwards they abandoned the LORD and wanted an earthly king and began to worhip Baal and the golden calves of Jeroboam I.

They quit believing in the LORD and the Lord cut them out of the good olive tree:

Romans 11
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted back in: for God is able to graff them in again.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Be not highminded, but fear.

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not you.

From this I deduce that God will cut off who does not remain in belief. Right now we are in because we have faith, meaning we belief what God has said.

But if we like many Old Israelites alsto stop believing, then we too will be cut off again.

God bless, BORN AGAIN
 

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Posted by EMoor (Member # 4880) on :
 
I guess what I am trying to say is this: I know good works does not lead to salvation, but salvation leads to good works, and salvation, true salvation, leads to a growing relationship with Jesus Christ. You can't just say, "I believe in Jesus", and walk away and never make any attempt to really know him, and expect to have eternal salvation. Thats all I'm trying to say.

Eric
 

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Posted by bygrace (Member # 4847) on :
 
I agree Emoor.
 

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Posted by kskibble (Member # 4858) on :
 
"I guess what I am trying to say is this: I know good works does not lead to salvation, but salvation leads to good works, and salvation, true salvation, leads to a growing relationship with Jesus Christ. You can't just say, "I believe in Jesus", and walk away and never make any attempt to really know him, and expect to have eternal salvation. Thats all I'm trying to say."

Eric,
If this were true, then how do you explain those who have never been saved until the day they were on their deathbed? They're in a hospital, it's their last hours. Someone goes in to minister to them. They accept Christ & get saved & die. They've never done any good works for the Lord, they've never made it past the "milk" stage. Yet, they've received salvation. Just asking.
 

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Posted by bygrace (Member # 4847) on :
 
Mary,

he stated that he doesn't believe in works for salvation.

What he is saying is those that profess christianity then go on to live a life in total contradiction of the christian life their conversion is put into question.

I think what he is saying is that some think that recital of a prayer saves them, when in fact there must be true repentance to go along.

Someone on their deathbed that receives Christ- we will never know how true their repentance was since there was no time to observe the actions behind the decision.

That does not mean that they are not saved, it is just that (we) won't ever see the fruits of christianity in them.

I do believe someone can get saved on their deathbed, I do not know their heart- and how sorry they are for their life without Christ.

It is just that when there is time to SEE some change in a professing Christian - it is easier to make the call.

I do not believe that everyone who "recites" a sinner's prayer is indeed a child of God. Many have been led down the road of easy-believism.

Example-in Rick warren's book - The Purpose Driven life- He states "just Believe and Receive "
This is misleading at best.

We must do more than "receive and Believe" we must REPENT and have genuine remorse for our fallen state and the sins against God.

maybe there is just a misunderstanding in the communication here. I see his point and I see yours. I thought at first he was saying works plus faith, but upon re-examination I see that is not what he was talking about.

Salvation is indeed faith based and no works will do it, But - works are the proof that you have salvation.



bygrace
 

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Posted by EMoor (Member # 4880) on :
 
Grace,

Thankyou!! That is my point!! When Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be in paradise with him that very day, I have no reason to doubt that he wasn't, because Jesus knew the mans heart. When someone is on their deathbed and they repent, we don't know if they were saved, but Jesus knows their heart too, and if their repentance is genuine, he knows, and the same holds true if it isn't genuine.

Eric
 

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Posted by Miguel (Member # 47) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
1 Corinthians 3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual, but as to carnal, even as to babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for until now you were not able to bear it, neither yet are you now able.

Miguel, note that Paul calls them brethren and babes in Christ. At the very least, my housemate would have been a babe in Christ IF he believed what he was reading?

Now, admittedly, I did not know him well when he was reading the Bible five times, and it may well be that eventhough he read it five times, it may well be that he was never able to mix faith with his reading:

Hebrews 4:2
For unto us also was the gospel preached, as well as to them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them who heard it.

So we may presumably be able to say that he had never mixed faith with it, but what if he did believe it for a time?

The next question would be, Is it possible to believe the gospel for a time and then to unbelieve it?

Certainly the experience of Old Israel was that they believed the LORD God of Israel for many years, but afterwards they abandoned the LORD and wanted an earthly king and began to worhip Baal and the golden calves of Jeroboam I.

They quit believing in the LORD and the Lord cut them out of the good olive tree:

Romans 11
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted back in: for God is able to graff them in again.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Be not highminded, but fear.

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not you.

From this I deduce that God will cut off who does not remain in belief. Right now we are in because we have faith, meaning we belief what God has said.

But if we like many Old Israelites alsto stop believing, then we too will be cut off again.

God bless, BORN AGAIN

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quote:

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Satan's master plan is to make people believe they are saved when in reality they are still lost

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quote:

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James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26)

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quote:

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"should not perish BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE."

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They should not perish, but if they neglect so Great a Salvation they might

it doesn't say wouldn't perish

Linda, I appreciate that you see that a child of Yahweh can not live like the Devil and still claim to have eternal life, here we stand in total agreement

Anyone that tell someone because they have said a prayer they are saved is a liar and do not have the nature of Yeshua

Yeshua and all the disciples and the Old Testament Saints declare the way of Yahweh to be straight and narrow

But the blind will never see

Yahweh, please open their eyes

In the Name of Yeshua
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
The security-in-sin teachers are spiritually dangerous people.

Besides all of the other grievous declarations they make, some have also gone so far as to say that a Christian’s future sins are already forgiven, even before they are committed.

Perhaps they teach this way in an effort to safeguard their doctrine of eternal security while they continue to tickle ears. I have heard at least one state that if it was possible for a Christian to lose his salvation, it could only occur through sin. Hence, by removing (in their minds) the only danger to eternal security, they have erected an imagined indestructible shield for its protection.

(Unfortunately, like many other Scriptural issues, the eternal security teachers are oblivious to the two other ways a Christian can lose his salvation besides through sin:

[1] Denying Jesus through persecution

and

[2] Accepting a wrong plan of salvation.

Here are two specific examples of what we are dangerously being taught from eternal security teachers Charles Stanley and David Jeremiah respectively:

No matter what you do as a child of God, you are forgiven.

You say, “Murder?” Forgiven.

“Stealing?” Forgiven.

“Adultery?” Forgiven.

“Worshiping Idols?” Forgiven.

Do you realize that when God forgives you, he forgives your past, your present and your future sin? Some people struggle with that terribly. They think that God only forgives them of all the sin they committed until they were converted. I had a lady tell me one day, she said, “You know, I know my sins were forgiven when I accepted Christ, but I’ve done a lot of other sin. How am I forgiven for that?” Well, you were already forgiven.

If you are a Christian, try to put yourself in their shoes thinking that your future sins are already forgiven before you commit them. If you accepted that premise, then your spiritual guard is not only down it is gone. You won’t ever need to guard against personal sin and its defiling abilities since you are already forgiven. This would mean you will always remain spiritually pure, just as you were the day you were saved, even if you would turn to sexual immorality, drunkenness, thief, idolatry, lying, murder, etc. You would never have to confess those sins to God that you committed after conversion, repent of them, forgive others who sinned against you, etc. to be purified, forgiven and cleansed, since you were never contaminated by any sin after conversion. In contrast, the spiritual danger of failing to do these is clear to anyone who has read through the New Testament with spiritual ears to hear and eyes to see, yet is seemingly hidden from the security-in-sin teachers themselves.

Let me cite some of the reasons why Christians reject the above deplorable teaching as taught by Charles Stanley, David Jeremiah and many others.

The Scriptural Evidence

Please notice what Jesus said to the Christians, after his infinite death on the cross for every person’s sins:

Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. (Rev 3:4)
Comment: All the other people in the church at Sardis did soil their spiritual clothes and were no longer worthy to walk with Jesus dressed in white. How did the majority, who were previously saved, get soiled? The answer is clear when you realize that sin can defile a Christian and even bring him to his spiritual death. That is why we have the following Scripture (among others):
... Do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure. (1 Tim 5:22)

Paul believed Timothy could become spiritually defiled again through sin and consequently told Timothy to keep himself pure. That would be meaningless, if Timothy would turn to sin and automatically be pre-forgiven. Paul (and others) were repeatedly teaching like this, even to the point of telling Christians they could die spiritually through sin and not inherit the kingdom of God:

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live (Rom 8:13)

but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers. (James 1:14-16)

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal 5:19-21)

At this point, I could stop this article, for it has already been proven that sin committed after conversion can defile a Christian, bring him to his spiritual death and cause him not to inherit the kingdom of God. All of that would be impossible if his future sins were already forgiven before they were committed, like these popular savage wolves in sheep’s clothing want us all to believe.

What the Bible teaches about past sins being forgiven at the point of repentance and a submissive faith in Jesus (Acts 20:21 cf. 26:20) is shown in the following Scripture:

But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. (2 Pet 1:9)

That Scripture was written about any person who had been saved, but since has forgotten he was cleansed from his past sin. Please note, a Christian at the point of salvation is cleansed from all his sins up to that moment—his past sins, according to Peter. Similarly, Paul stated below:

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins (Col 2:13)

All our sins were forgiven in a moment’s time when we got born again. If a Christian is afterwards deceived or yields to the devil’s temptations to sin, the following is given as a remedy:

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)

The Apostle John put himself in on that Scripture by using the plural pronoun we. In other words, if we don’t confess those sins to God, which are committed after conversion, then we won’t be purified from their effects. (Apparently, no person who believes what the security-in-sin teachers proclaim about this will confess his sins to God and renounce them to get purified, since he thinks they are already forgiven.)

He who conceals his sins does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy. (Prov 28:13)

There are other indications that a Christian’s future sins are not forgiven and that sin can spiritually defile a believer, even though Jesus died for all sins nearly 2000 years ago:
See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. (Heb 12:15)

Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God. (2 Cor 7:1)

Also, notice the following Scripture which shows that the Apostle Paul knew of some who wandered away from a pure heart. In other words, sin can adversely affect a pure heart. This would be impossible if their future sins were already forgiven:

The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk. (1 Tim 1:5,6)

As Christians, we are also to have a certain frame of mind, a certain type of hope that will purify:

Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure. (1 John 3:2,3)
Jesus taught openly that sin can drag any lustful person to hell:

But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. (Mat 5:28,29)

The Lord also stated the stipulation for a Christian to get his sins forgiven, that is, he must forgive others who sin against him. Such a teaching would be impossible if his future sins were all automatically forgiven even before they were committed. If that was true then there would be no conditions to get forgiven, unlike what Jesus stated:

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. (Mat 6:14,15)
Then the master called the servant in. “You wicked servant,” he said, “I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?” In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart. (Mat 18:32-35)

That is not all we read about a Christian’s sins getting forgiven. The prayer of faith can bring healing to the body, as well as forgiveness of sins:

Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. (James 5:14,15)
Another deathblow to the lie that a Christian’s future sins are already forgiven is the following passage:

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. (Heb 10:26, 27)
Clearly, Heb. 10:26,27 is referring to people who had been converted then decided to deliberately sin in a certain way. Instead of believing the ear-tickling deadly lies of our day, let’s all cleave to the message of the Bible. Among other things it will show us the following, which also would be impossible if a Christian’s future sins were already forgiven:
So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. (2 Pet 3:14)

Being found spotless, blameless and at peace with God is not automatic. Christians under grace are to put forth every effort to remain in this condition:

Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. (Luke 13:24)
Dear reader, don’t let yourself, family or friends be deceived by the eternal security teachers Scriptural distortions. Contend for the faith against their deadly teachings. Souls hang in the balance.

God bless you.
 

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Posted by Miguel (Member # 47) on :
 
Impute

Hebrew chashab, Greek logizomai; "to count, reckon" (Rom_4:2-8), namely, unrighteousness (whether one's own or another's) to one's discredit; or righteousness (whether one's own or another's) to one's credit whether in man's account or in the judgment book of God (Rev_20:12; Num_18:27). Phm_1:1:18; "if Onesimus hath wronged thee, or oweth thee aught, put that on mine account" In Rom_4:6 righteousness imputed without works must mean a righteousness not our own, yet reckoned as ours, namely, "the righteousness of (Him who is both) God. and Saviour Jesus Christ" (the Greek, 2Pe_1:1). The gospel sets forth God's righteousness which is Christ's.
Christ's is imputed to us; so that God is at once "just and the justifier of him that believeth in Jesus" (Rom_3:25-26). God in accepting the believer is therefore not only merciful but just. Our advocate is not merely the gracious but "Jesus Christ the righteous" (1Jo_2:1). "God is well pleased," not merely for mercy's sake, but "for His righteousness sake" (Isa_42:21; Isa_45:21 end; Jer_23:6). "The righteousness of God, by faith of Jesus Christ, is unto all and upon all them that believe" (Rom_3:22; Rom_4:5-6), "faith (not for its own worthiness, but for that of Him on whom it rests) is counted for righteousness" (Rom_10:4; 1Co_1:30). There is a threefold imputation:
I. That of Adam's sin to all his posterity; that it is so, Paul proves by the fact of all, even infants who have never actually sinned, suffering its penalty death (Rom_5:12-14; Rom_5:19), even as all inherit his corrupt nature. God, in fact, deals with us all as guilty race; for we are all liable to suffering and death; the doctrine of imputation of Adam's sin accounts for it. Yet imputation is not infusion; Adam's sin is not ours in the same sense as our own personal sin; nor is imputation the transfer of his character to us.
II. That of our sins to Christ (Isa_53:6).
III. That of Christ's righteousness to us (Rom_5:19; 2Co_5:19; 2Co_5:21). Instead of "imputing their trespasses to men," God "hath made Him to be sin for us who knew no sin, that we might be made (Greek that we may become) the righteousness of God in Him," i.e. in union with Him by faith. "Such are we in the sight of God the Father as is the very Son of God Himself" (Hooker). In justification Christ's righteousness is imputed to us; in sanctification Christ's righteousness is imparted to us, in vital union with Him the Head from whom the life flows into the members.

The just shall live by faith" (Hab_2:4) is thrice quoted by Paul:
(1) Rom_1:17, where the emphasis is on "just," the gospel plan of saving men sets forth "the righteousness (justice) of God" as excluding the righteousness of man, Gentile and Jew alike (Rom_1:17 ff; Romans 2; Rom_3:25).
(2) Gal_3:11, etc., where the emphasis is on "faith" as distinguished front works, either distinct from or combined with faith, in the act of justification, this is by faith alone.
(3) Heb_10:38-39, where the emphasis is on "live"; as in the first instance in the matter of justification, so throughout, spiritual life is continued only by faith as opposed to "drawing back."
Again, the gratuitousness of God's gift of justification is brought out by comparing Rom_3:24, "being justified freely (doorean) by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus," with Joh_15:25, "they hated ME without a cause" (doorean). As gratuitous as was man's hatred, so gratuitous is God's love justifying believers through Christ. Man had every cause to love, yet he hated, God; God had every cause given by man to hate, yet He loves, man. The Hebrew tsadaquw, Greek dikaioo, expresses, not to infuse righteousness into but to impute it to, man; to change his relation to God legally or forensically, not in the first instance to change his character. "Justification" is no more an infusion of righteousness than "condemnation," its opposite, is an infusion of wickedness, as is proved by Deu_25:1, "the judges shall justify the righteous and condemn the wicked," Pro_17:15; Isa_5:23; Psa_143:2, which shows that by inherent righteousness no man could be justified.
In 40 Old Testament passages the Hebrew is used in the forensic sense, Isa_53:11, "by His knowledge shall My righteous Servant justify many" is no exception, for the mode of His justifying them follows, "He shall bear their iniquities." So in Dan_12:3 ministers "justify" or "turn to righteousness" their converts instrumentally, i.e. bring them to God who justifies them. In Dan_8:14, margin, "the sanctuary shall be justified" means "shall be vindicated from profanation," shall stand in a relation of right before God which it had not done before its cleansing. Similarly the Greek verb means not to make righteous or pure, but to count righteous before God. Opposed to katakrinoo, "to condemn", Rom_8:33-34; "who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth?" Also Rom_5:16; Luk_18:14. Mat_11:19 means like Dan_8:14, "wisdom is vindicated from the condemnation" east on her by "this generation."
Also Mat_12:37; Luk_7:29, the publicans "justified God"; i.e. vindicated His righteousness, showed they counted Him righteous in His "counsel" by accepting the gospel; opposed to the Pharisees who "rejected" it, to their own condemnation (Rom_2:13). Before man's bar, ordinarily, the righteousness on account of which he is justified or counted righteous is his own; before God's bar, the righteousness on account of which he is justified is Christ's, which is God's (2Pe_1:1). Therefore pardon accompanies justification before God's bar, but pardon would be scorned by one innocent and therefore justified before man's bar. Again, acquittal before man is not always accompanied with justification; but the sinner pardoned before God is always justified also. In 1Jo_3:7, "he that doeth righteousness is righteous even as He is righteous"; not his doing righteousness makes him righteous, but shows that he is so, i.e. justified by the righteousness of God in Christ (Rom_10:3-10).
A man "deceives" himself if he think himself "righteous," and yet does not righteousness, for "doing righteousness" is the sure fruit and proof of "being righteous," i.e. of having the only principle of true righteousness and the only mean of justification, faith. Paul's epistle to Romans proves Jew and Gentile guilty of breaking God's universal law, therefore incapable of being justified by their own righteousness, i.e. obedience to the law. "By the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified in God's sight; but now (under the gospel) the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe; for there is no difference, for all have sinned," etc. (Rom_3:20-23). Still plainer is Rom_4:3-8 "to hint that worketh not but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith (i.e. not as a merit, but Christ's merit apprehended by faith: Eph_2:5; Eph_2:8-10) is counted for righteousness.
David describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works (as man has no righteousness of his own the 'righteousness imputed' to him can only be the righteousness of God in Christ) ... blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." The justified man is not only acquitted as innocent but regarded as having perfectly obeyed the law in the person of Christ. There is to him both the non-imputation of sin and the imputation of righteousness. "Being justified by God's grace he is made heir according to the hope of eternal life" (Tit_3:7; Rom_5:18-19). Christ is "of God made unto us righteousness," so that to believers He is "the Lord our righteousness" (1Co_1:30; Jer_23:6). Faith is the instrument or receptive mean of justification (Rom_3:28; Gal_2:16; Gal_3:8).
We are justified judicially by God (Rom_8:33), meritoriously by Christ (Isa_53:11; Rom_5:19), instrumentally or mediately by faith (Rom_5:1), evidentially by works. This is the sense of James (Jam_2:14-26), otherwise James could no more be reconciled with himself than with Paul, for he quotes the same instance and the same scripture, "Abraham believed God and it (his faith) was counted to him for righteousness," as Paul does. Luther called the doctrine of justification by faith only "the article (test) of a standing or falling church." Justin Martyr in the second century (Ep. ad Diog.) writes: "what else could cover our sins but His righteousness? in whom could we transgressors be justified but only in the Son of God? O sweet exchange! O unsearchable contrivance! that the transgressions of many should be hidden in one righteous Person and the righteousness of One should justify many transgressors." (2Co_5:21).
The Church of England Homily says: "faith doth not shut out repentance, hope, love, and the fear of God in every man justified, but it shutteth them out from the office of justifying." So: "faith, receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification, yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces." Rome makes justification the infusion of righteousness by God's Spirit and the rewarding of the good works done under His influence, at the day of judgment. This confounds justification with sanctification whereas Romans 5 and Romans 6 carefully distinguish them, and makes it a continuous process not completed until the judgment, whereas Scripture makes it completed on believing (Rom_5:1-9; Rom_8:1; Joh_5:24).

Info..
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
I am sure the child molesters, murderers, rapist, and such are glad to hear your gospel Miguel, they can be saved and still continue to molest children, kill people, and rape and such and still go to heaven, if they repented once, no need to repent again, no need for conrition for their sin, they are saved, Once Saved Always Saved. No need for the Holy Spirit's work, no need for a daily walk of trusting in Jesus powerful grace, (look up the defition of "grace"

we are saved by "Grace" through "Faith"

Grace is an action word and so is Faith

You can peddle that trash if you want but on judgment day you will have blooding hands
 

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Posted by Lars7 (Member # 4911) on :
 
Whoa...here we go again...the Body of Christ and everyone has a different opinion....Well one thing for sure we are all not getting our information from the same Holy Spirit...To be this divided is a shame.If Christ came back today would He not only find no Faith...but much division.....The message is so simple yet we complicate it with carnel knowledge....If you are saved by GRACE through Faith that means YOU DID NOTHING TO DESERVE IT...NOR DID YOU DO ANYTHING TO EARN IT!...Therefore YOU CAN DO NOTHING TO LOSE IT!....If one gives his heart to Christ and accepts Him as there Lord....they will not be out there killing....murdering...and so fourth.Many call themselves Christians but there heart is far from the Lord.....Cain killed Able.....David loved the Lord but yet he Killed and was forgiven...Once Saved always saved is a doctrine of the Devil to divide the church.....and I can see its working to perfection....You were a SINNER...and Salvation was a FREE GIFT TO YOU....You did not deserve it no not at all....And you can sit there and tell me that you dont sin at all....not even 1....You do....we all still sin to some degree....But here is where the difference is...God does not view sin as we do....example....The Bible says that if you transgress just one law....you are guilty of all of it....Hmmmmm.....that means as far as God is concerned if you tell a lie....or kill someone its all the same to him.....there is no degree of sin to God....But to us there is a degree we measure by....we lock up killers....we dont lock up lyers.
Sin to God is disobdience plane and simple...And there is a reason for this....The Law is perfect...we are not....God knew this before He gave the Law....How could a perfect law change an imperfect man...It could not .....But the Law came to strenghten sin against us....showing us that in no way shape or form could we ever keep it...This was Gods plan...God was simply showing us that we needed a Savior!....If anyone comes to Christ and is saved....and the rest of his life never picks up his Bible....and just continues his life unchanged He will get into Heaven....He will smell like smoke for all his works will burn up before the Lord...nevertheless...He will be there.But anyone who gets an understanding of grace will want to chase after the one who brought it to them.And that would be there Father.
 

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Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
Lars7, Grace by faith is an action on our part: we believe, He extends grace. Without active and continuous believing on our part, there will be no grace. Faith or believing is the only thing we have to do; God does the rest.

BORN AGAIN
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Lars7

quote:

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If one gives his heart to Christ and accepts Him as their Lord....

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Therefore YOU CAN DO NOTHING TO LOSE IT!....

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David loved the Lord but yet he Killed and was forgiven

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God does not view sin as we do

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God "keeps" us from falling out of salvation.

Jude writes, "To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to
present you before His glorious presence without fault. . ." (Jude
24), which affirms that we do not keep ourselves in salvation by
our works. Rather, it is God who "keeps us from falling." We
cannot fall out of grace. God continually gives us His gracious,
undeserved, unmerited forgiveness to cover our sins.

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I could not believe that
once a person was "saved" that there was no way to ever "lose" that
salvation. It seemed "crazy" to believe that I could become a
Christian today and then commit all kinds of "gross" sins tomorrow and
still have a secure future in the eternal home! I remember asking Bob
Hey, the Christian who shared the gospel with me, "Bob, do you mean
that if I accept Jesus as my Savior and Lord, and later in my life
commit murder, adultery, theft, or even commit suicide, that I would
still go to heaven?" His answer was a resounding yes.

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Remove the knowledge of righteousness by faith and grace loses its power to release eternal life in our daily lives.

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Eph. 2:8: Salvation is described as a gift. The dictionary defines a gift as "something that is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation; a present" (American Heritage Dictionary-see note 4 at Rom. 6:23, p. 784). When someone gives you a present you don't ask, "How much do I owe you?" Your only response should be, "Thank you very much."

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Rom. 4:8: The Greek word that is translated "will not" in this verse is what is called an emphatic negative and it means "not ever." This is the strongest language possible that those who receive forgiveness will not ever have their sins held against them. He didn't just say "did not" or "does not" but "will not" implying that even future tense sins have been dealt with, through the sacrificial offering of Jesus, once for all (Heb. 10:10, 14).

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This is a blessed word for God have say it in His word that is Him that bringeth to not this sins of our, and with a new heart new fruits of the Spirit. Yet we leave in this sinful body!
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 But when this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and when this mortal shall put on immortality, then will take place the word that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory.
Job 17:14 I have said to corruption, You are my father; to the worm, My mother and my sister!
 

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Posted by Bandit (Member # 3643) on :
 
Yep, OSAS is a false doctrine. Salvation is having a certain kind of relationship with God. If and when that relationship ends - salvation is gone. Those who vehemently defend OSAS would better spend their time by vehemently defending the eternal security of those who eternally remain in that relationship with God. Yes, there is something we could call 'eternal security', but OSAS is not it. OSAS should be dumped, and the true basis of 'eternal security' should be embraced. This true basis for 'eternal security' is a current and ongoing participation in the New Covenant.

Bandit
 

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Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on :
 
When the Lord created the angels He imputed righteousness and eternal life in them and all this without them ever having done any works. So it is not such an unusual thing for the Lord to impute it on believers without them ever doing any works. What would be unusual is that if the tree be corrupt that He would let it live indefinitely. (Luke 13:6-10)
 

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Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on :
 
RE: Message sent to me; an article by J. Mac.

The law is by its very nature a technical endeavor. The Bible says that if you have broken one of the commandments that you are guilty of all. Do we understand that breaking the commandments are a matter of the heart and the will? We have to do something or think something in order to become a breaker of the law of God.

Never in the history of mankind has an infant ever broken even one law of God. Therefore infants are not guilty before God and are not condemned before God. They are innocent of any wrong doing. And so is God innocent of any wrong doing. God is just and does not convict any one of crimes that they never committed.

I found the article to be deplorable just as when Job was slandered by Satan.

AMH
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Let it be known this is not adressed to any one that holds to SEcurity for those who walk after the things of Yahweh!

Terrriebear

you have an honest heart,

I can tell you no one could convince me either way

whether they are saved or not is in the Lord's Hands

But the Apostle Paul would urge you to continue challenging them, to get you to ask them to examine themselves and see if they are in the faith, Hell is no laughing matter

If they are not living the life outlined by the Lord Jesus that a believer would live,

where do these idiots that propose Once Saved Always Saved get the gall to tell someone that is living like the Devil, with no fruit, that they are going to Heaven

If they were my children I would be praying for them, and witnessing to them as to what the scripture say about as to how a true child of Yahweh will live

1-EXAMINE YOURSELVES

The Scriptures tell each person to examine themselves. Test themselves to see if they are really in the faith.

It is written, 2 Cor 13:5-EXAMINE YOURSELVES, WHETHER YE BE IN THE FAITH; PROVE YOUR OWN SELVES. KNOW YE NOT YOUR OWN SELVES, HOW THAT JESUS CHRIST IS IN YOU, EXCEPT YE BE REPROBATES?

2-THEY SOUGHT SALVATION BY WORKS, BUT NOT BY FAITH

Because they sought salvation but not through faith, they perish. There is only one way. It is through faith in Jesus Christ.

Ro 9:32-BECAUSE THEY SOUGHT IT NOT BY FAITH…THEY STUMBLED AT THAT STUMBLING-STONE (which is Jesus).

3-SHALL THEIR UNBELIEF MAKE GOD’S WORD OF NO EFFECT?

Many people do not believe the Bible. They do not believe in the Jesus of the Bible.

It is written, Ro 3:3-FOR WHAT IF SOME DID NOT BELIEVE? SHALL THEIR UNBELIEF MAKE THE FAITH OF GOD WITHOUT EFFECT?

4-FAITH IS PRECIOUS AND HOLY

In 2 Pet 1:1, we see the words-PRECIOUS FAITH; and in Jude 20-MOST HOLY FAITH. As God’s Word tells us, our faith is to be centered on Jesus Christ, God’s only begotten Son. True faith is very precious and most holy.

5-THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH

The born-again Christian is to live and walk by faith. As a person’s faith grows, their understanding and reliance on Jesus should grow. More and more and ever increasing, the new Christian should live and walk by faith.

2 Cor 5:7-FOR WE WALK BY FAITH, NOT BY SIGHT.
Gal 3:11-THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.
Heb 10:38-tells us, NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.
Ro 1:17-AS IT IS WRITTEN, THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.

6-WHATSOEVER IS NOT OF FAITH IS SIN

It is not possible to please God without faith. In addition, whatsoever we do that is not of faith is sin.

It is written, Heb 11:6-BUT WITHOUT FAITH IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE HIM.

Ro 14:23-FOR WHATSOEVER IS NOT OF FAITH IS SIN.

7-FAITH PROMPTS US TO SERVE GOD

All of God’s people are called to serve Him. We are told in Eph 2:10-FOR WE ARE HIS WORKMANSHIP, Christ’s workmanship, CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS UNTO GOOD WORKS, WHICH GOD HATH BEFORE ORDAINED THAT WE SHOULD WALK IN THEM.

So what prompts us to work for Jesus? It is our faith. If a person will not serve Jesus, it is good evidence they have little or no faith. If they are fully committed to serving Jesus and are able to endure much hardships, it can be an indication of much faith.

As Phili 2:17 tells us-the SERVICE OF YOUR FAITH; and 1 Thes 1:3-YOUR WORK OF FAITH, or (NIV) WORK PRODUCED BY FAITH, YOUR LABOR PROMPTED BY LOVE, AND YOUR ENDURANCE INSPIRED BY HOPE IN OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.

2 Thes 1:11-THE WORK OF FAITH (or act prompted by your faith-NIV).

2 Cor 4:13-WE HAVING THE SAME SPIRIT OF FAITH, ACCORDING AS IT IS WRITTEN, I BELIEVED, AND THEREFORE HAVE I SPOKEN; WE ALSO BELIEVE, AND THEREFORE SPEAK.

Let us not forget that the evidence of salvation is "fruit"-ref Mt 7:20.

8-THE EVIDENCE OF FAITH

Paul wanted to know the people’s faith.
Here are given four evidences of a right attitude, which should come forth from faith.

1Thes 3:6-BUT NOW WHEN TIMOTHEUS CAME FROM YOU UNTO US, AND BROUGHT US GOOD TIDINGS OF YOUR

A-FAITH AND

B-CHARITY (or love),

C-AND THAT YE HAVE GOOD REMEMBRANCE OF US ALWAYS,

D-DESIRING GREATLY TO SEE US, AS WE ALSO TO SEE YOU.

9-SEEING THEIR FAITH

The Scriptures show us that faith can be seen and perceived.

Mt 9:2-AND, BEHOLD, THEY BROUGHT TO HIM A MAN SICK OF THE PALSY, LYING ON A BED: AND JESUS SEEING THEIR FAITH SAID UNTO THE SICK OF THE PALSY; SON, BE OF GOOD CHEER; THY SINS BE FORGIVEN THEE.

Mk 2:5-WHEN JESUS SAW THEIR FAITH, HE SAID UNTO THE SICK OF THE PALSY, SON, THY SINS BE FORGIVEN THEE.

Lk 5:20-AND WHEN HE SAW THEIR FAITH, HE SAID UNTO HIM, MAN, THY SINS ARE FORGIVEN THEE.

Acts 14:9-THE SAME HEARD PAUL SPEAK: WHO STEDFASTLY BEHOLDING HIM, AND PERCEIVING THAT HE HAD FAITH TO BE HEALED.

10-EVERY PERSON A MEASURE OF FAITH

God gives to every person a measure of faith.

Ro 12:3-FOR I SAY, THROUGH THE GRACE GIVEN UNTO ME, TO EVERY MAN THAT IS AMONG YOU, NOT TO THINK OF HIMSELF MORE HIGHLY THAN HE OUGHT TO THINK; BUT TO THINK SOBERLY, ACCORDING AS GOD HATH DEALT TO EVERY MAN THE MEASURE OF FAITH.

Ro 12:6-HAVING THEN GIFTS DIFFERING ACCORDING TO THE GRACE THAT IS GIVEN TO US, WHETHER PROPHECY, LET US PROPHESY ACCORDING TO THE PROPORTION OF FAITH.

It may be said, when combining all the Scriptures on "faith," that it is of God and depends solely on the initial moving of God. It involves the Divine influence upon an individual’s heart and then the individual’s response to receive God’s Word into his heart by faith.

11-LOVE WITH FAITH

Over and over, the Scriptures combine faith and love together. Love is so important that no matter how much faith a person has, if he does not have love, he is nothing. No matter how much faith a person has, if they do not love God and their brothers in Christ, they are not saved.

The Scriptures convey to us that God’s children are to also love their enemies. Love is so important that the Scriptures tell us that faith works by love.

Gal 5:6-FOR IN JESUS CHRIST NEITHER CIRCUMCISION AVAILETH ANY THING, NOR UNCIRCUMCISION; BUT FAITH WHICH WORKETH BY LOVE.

The person that does not have love is nothing. It is written, 1 Cor 13:2-AND THOUGH I HAVE THE GIFT OF PROPHECY, AND UNDERSTAND ALL MYSTERIES, AND ALL KNOWLEDGE; AND THOUGH I HAVE ALL FAITH, SO THAT I COULD REMOVE MOUNTAINS, AND HAVE NOT CHARITY (or love), I AM NOTHING.

Note how the following verses combine love and faith in various ways.

Col 1:4-SINCE WE HEARD OF YOUR FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS, AND OF THE LOVE WHICH YE

HAVE TO ALL THE SAINTS.

Eph 1:15-WHEREFORE I ALSO, AFTER I HEARD OF YOUR FAITH IN THE LORD JESUS, AND LOVE UNTO ALL THE SAINTS.

Eph 3:17-THAT CHRIST MAY DWELL IN YOUR HEARTS BY FAITH; THAT YE, BEING ROOTED AND GROUNDED IN LOVE.

Eph 6:23-PEACE BE TO THE BRETHREN, AND LOVE WITH FAITH, FROM GOD THE FATHER AND THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.

Phile 1:5-HEARING OF THY LOVE AND FAITH, WHICH THOU HAST TOWARD THE LORD JESUS, AND TOWARD ALL SAINTS.

1Thes 5:8-BUT LET US, WHO ARE OF THE DAY, BE SOBER, PUTTING ON THE BREASTPLATE OF FAITH AND LOVE; AND FOR AN HELMET, THE HOPE OF SALVATION.

1 Tim 1:14-AND THE GRACE OF OUR LORD WAS EXCEEDING ABUNDANT WITH FAITH AND LOVE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS.

Titus 3:15-ALL THAT ARE WITH ME SALUTE THEE. GREET THEM THAT LOVE US IN THE FAITH.

12-REPENTANCE AND FAITH 13-OBEDIENCE 13-OBEDIENCE

The Scriptures also connect repentance and faith together.

Acts 20:21-TESTIFYING BOTH TO THE JEWS, AND ALSO TO THE GREEKS, REPENTANCE TOWARD GOD, AND FAITH TOWARD OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.

13-OBEDIENCE

Obedience is a result or product of faith (obedience of faith). We may expect if there is little faith, there will be little obedience. In place of little obedience, often comes many excuses.

Ro 16:26-ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT OF THE EVERLASTING GOD, MADE KNOWN TO ALL NATIONS FOR (or leading to) THE OBEDIENCE OF FAITH.

God would have us to be "obedient to the faith." Indeed, we receive grace for obedience to the faith.
Acts 6:7-AND THE WORD OF GOD INCREASED; AND THE NUMBER OF THE DISCIPLES MULTIPLIED IN JERUSALEM GREATLY; AND A GREAT COMPANY OF THE PRIESTS WERE OBEDIENT TO THE FAITH.

Ro 1:5-BY WHOM WE HAVE RECEIVED GRACE AND APOSTLESHIP, FOR OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH AMONG ALL NATIONS, FOR HIS NAME.

14-BE FOLLOWERS OF THEM OF FAITH, WHO HAVE SPOKEN UNTO YOU THE WORD OF GOD

The Scriptures tell us to be followers of or imitate those, who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised-ref Heb 6:12 NIV.

Heb 6:12-THAT YE BE NOT SLOTHFUL, BUT FOLLOWERS OF THEM WHO THROUGH FAITH AND PATIENCE INHERIT THE PROMISES.

Heb 13:7-REMEMBER THEM (your leaders) WHICH HAVE THE RULE OVER YOU, WHO HAVE SPOKEN UNTO YOU THE WORD OF GOD: WHOSE FAITH FOLLOW, CONSIDERING THE END OF THEIR CONVERSATION (consider the outcome of their way of life-NIV).

web site

http://www.parentalguide.com/Documents/Doctrines/Faith_examine-self_part2.htm
 

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Posted by Miguel (Member # 47) on :
 
2 Corinthians 4:13. We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak. Ephesians 1:17-19. That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power.
Ephesians 2:8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

It is the work of the Holy Spirit that we been dead in sin may have faith to the work of salvation, for this faith is the Lord Jesus Christ for He is the FAITHFUL ONE and when God looks at a sinner like you and me He does not look at our faith but the faithfulness of the CHRIST… what payment do you have to give God for your rotten sins!

Galatians 2:20. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Hebrews 6:11-12. And we desire that every one of you do show the same dilligence, to the full assurance of hope unto the end; that ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. Hebrews 10:22. Let us draw near with a true heart, in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water

If Jesus Christ is The Author and Finisher of Our Faith, where do ye stand in having faith to save thy self?

Hebrews 12:2. Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.

If it is true that faith is a gift of God and that sanctification is an act of God’s grace, then should a genuine believer not persevere in the faith, God must have either taken back the faith He gave to the believer or failed in His attempt to sanctify the believer. There are many passages that demonstrate God’s ability and commitment to preserve the faith of the believer and sanctify him during his earthly life. For instance, Paul in Philippians states his confidence that “he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus” (1:6). The work of sanctification is God’s work, and He promises to finish the work that He begins when He saves people.

In much the same manner as in Paul’s letter to the Philippians, Paul encouraged the Thessalonians in 2 Thess. 3:3-4, “But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen and protect you from the evil one. We have confidence in the Lord that you are doing and will continue to do the things we command.” Paul had much confidence that the Thessalonian church would persevere in the faith. Yet this confidence was not in the Thessalonian church. His confidence was “in the Lord” because He is the one who “is faithful.” The preservation of the saints is grounded in the very character of God himself, who is faithful to protect His children so that they will persevere.

Some of the strongest statements to this effect occur in John’s first epistle. In 1 John 3:9, he writes, “No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.” Later on, he writes “We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him” (1 John 5:18). It is questionable whether the NIV should have translated the present tense verbs here with such continual force, but it may be fitting to the theological problem John was addressing. John here is emphatically claiming that no regenerated Christian sins (or continues to sin). The fact that this Christian was regenerated prevents him from sinning; God does protect him from the evil one. Understanding the situation of this epistle discussed earlier will prevent one from thinking that God prevents Christians from sinning at all; rather, God will protect His children from falling into the kind of heretical beliefs and practices adopted by John’s adversaries.

Ultimately, Berkhof is right to say that, because of our union with Christ and because of His continual mediatorial work, God will not fail to save those whom He effectually calls. In Heb. 7:25, the author claims, “Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.” Christ’s intercessory work on our behalf guarantees our salvation—so much so that if it is possible for genuine believers to not ultimately be saved, then Christ has failed to provide intercession for us. So, Paul can approach death without any shame and with complete confidence, not because of His own effort, but because He “knew in whom [He] believed” (2 Tim. 1:12). No matter what evil may await him, he can boast, “The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom” (4:18).

Objections

Many in the New Testament Have Lost Their Faith (2 Timothy)
Perhaps the most notable objection to the doctrine of perseverance is to bring up the numerous people mentioned in Paul’s letters to Timothy who were said to have lost their faith or destroyed the faith of others. Paul said that Hymenaeus and Alexander “shipwrecked their faith” (1 Tim. 1:18-20). In Paul’s next epistle, Paul mentioned that Hymenaeus along with Philetus “wandered away from the truth” by teaching a heretical view on the resurrection which “destroy[ed] the faith of some” (2 Tim. 2:17). Alexander opposed Paul’s message and thus did Paul a great deal of harm (2 Tim. 4:14-15). Demas deserted Paul because he “loved the world” (2 Tim. 4:10).

In response, it must be noted again that many people have made professions of faith who are not genuine believers. Such is clear in the New Testament as well as in experience. It may well be that these individuals who turned from the Christian gospel to heretical teachings never truly had a genuine faith. It could be that their faith was largely superficial, and therefore they were easily seduced by heretical teachings (see the parable of “the sower and the seed” for a confirming example of this). In fact, in 1 John 2:19, quoted earlier, John states that if they were genuine believers, they would not have left the faith.

Salvation is Conditioned upon Perseverance (Col. 1:22-23; Heb. 3:14)

Near the opening of his letter to the Colossians, Paul writes that Christians have been reconciled by Christ’s physical body through death for the purpose of presenting them holy in God’s sight. However, he provided one condition—“if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.” A similar emphasis can be seen in Hebrews 3:14. “We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

Some claim that these verses assume that some may not continue in their faith, and therefore they will lose their salvation. However, it must be admitted that Paul and the author of Hebrews are addressing churches, and some of the members of those churches may only profess faith; they may not yet possess genuine faith. Certainly some of those may fall away from their profession. At the same time, it must also be stated that for genuine believers, there is no conflict here with Reformed theology. All the elect will by God’s grace continue in their faith, and as a result, they will be presented before God “without blemish and free from accusation.” It is only those who persevere that are genuinely saved.

Christ Will Remove Lampstands (Rev. 2:4-6)

In Revelation 2, John recorded Christ’s words as He addressed the church in Ephesus. Jesus had a scathing rebuke for them. They had lost their “first love.” If they refused to repent, Jesus says, “I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.” Some may infer from this that people in the church of Ephesus were once believers and lost their faith. If they refuse to repent, their salvation will be lost. However, it must be recognized that Jesus is speaking to the church as a whole, not to individuals in it, and the “lampstand” represents the church of Ephesus, not individuals (Rev. 1:20). On a corporate level, a church may be judged. However, there’s no reason to believe that individual believers in that church to have lost their salvation. When Israel was exiled to Babylon as a corporate judgment, believers were exiled along with nonbelievers. Likewise, when a church “lampstand” is removed, individual believers will find fellowship elsewhere or plant another church.

Leads to Immorality

Berkhof has noted that some object to the doctrine of perseverance believing that such a doctrine would only increase one’s license for sin. However, a proper understanding of the gospel message should indicate otherwise. In fact, hidden within this objection appears to be a desire to coerce moral behavior out of the threat or fear of punishment. It is assumed that if one believes and thus fears that he may lose his salvation if he becomes too disobedient, he will make a stronger effort to live morally. Should one take away the threat of eternal damnation, he has taken away any reason to be moral. Yet not only does this kind of objection fail to understand the true nature of regeneration, but it also inevitably resorts to the lowest sort of moralism that Paul abhorred. This kind of objection betrays an incentive towards righteous behavior based on fear and coercion; Christians must conform to the law, and if they fail too terribly, they will be damned.

Paul, on the other hand, unequivocally affirms that “there is no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 8:1). The motivation of fear and law do nothing to increase righteous behavior (Col. 2:23). In fact, they only increase one’s desire to sin (Rom. 5:20; Rom. 7:7-8; Gal. 3:19). The law is powerless to generate obedience in the believer; the believer is therefore regenerated by the Spirit to keep the law, not out of fear of condemnation, but out of a renewed desire to display gratitude to His Savior (Rom. 8:3-4), “stirring up the grace of God that is in them.” The law does function positively therefore as a “rule of life” precisely because the threat of condemnation has been taken away.

The fact is that a justified believer is free from fear of eternal punishment for disobeying God’s commands (Rom. 6:14; 1 John 4:18). He has already been declared righteous by virtue of Christ’s obedience. In fact, it is God’s kindness that leads us to repentance (Rom. 2:4), and the reality of our forgiveness and assurance of salvation is a far more powerful motivator than fear. Berkhof writes, “It is hard to see how a doctrine which assures the believer of a perseverance in holiness can be an incentive for sin. It would seem that the certainty of success in the active striving for sanctification would be the best possible stimulus to even greater exertion.”

At the same time, there is a Biblical fear that a Christian may undergo. Times of persistent sin in our lives may cause us to question whether or not we are in fact saved. A genuine believer never needs to fear losing his salvation or falling under God’s judgment, but all professing believers are called to, with fear and trembling, work out their salvation (Phil. 2:12-13). There is the possibility that believers might have false confidence in their salvation.

Assurance of Salvation

Peter encouraged his readers at the beginning of his second epistle to “be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” The author of Hebrews also writes, “We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure” (Heb. 6:11). These commands assume that it is possible for one’s calling, election and hope to be at one time unsure, and it gives professing believers hope that they can be made sure. It presupposes that it is possible for one who is elect to become assured that he in fact is elect. Many do profess Christian faith and have a false assurance of their salvation. In time, these will fall away from the faith. Theoretically, this could happen to any professing Christian. However, it is not necessary therefore to abandon all hope of gaining assurance of salvation. This assurance may not come immediately, but with prayer and the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit, it may be obtained (see Heb. 3:14; 10:22)

John’s first epistle reveals the apostle’s desire that genuine believers become assured of their salvation. As has been discussed earlier, John in this epistle was refuting the teachings of false teachers who had left the church (probably in Ephesus) and were trying to deceive those who remained (1 John 2:19, 26; 3:7). John’s actual readers were the faithful who had not been taken captive by this false teaching; instead, John’s readers had overcome them (1 John 2:12-14, 20-21, 27; 4:4). John wrote to the faithful members of the church to give them assurance of their salvation—“that you might know that you have eternal life” (1 John 5:13). John knew beforehand that his readers were faithful to the Biblical gospel, and he sought to provide them with both an assurance of their salvation and the theological tools to oppose the false teachers. In fact, John had no real need to teach them; they already had all the knowledge they needed. However, the wake of a church split caused by false teachings can leave many in emotional and psychological turmoil. John’s letter gave them the comfort and confidence they needed to set their hearts at rest in His presence (1 John 3:19).

At the same time, persistent unrepentant sin may cause one to rightly question his own salvation. His assurance of his own salvation may waver. Paul warns the Corinthian church, “Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?” (2 Cor. 13:5) It is necessary for the believer to undergo self-examination; this self examination is a part of dying to the self, as pat of the sanctification process.


The perseverance of the saints is one doctrine that, while is often maligned in the church, is precious to those who embrace it. To a Christian, the knowledge that salvation cannot be lost is a great comfort. To know, beyond this truth, that God will preserve him and will continue to sanctify him throughout his earthly life is an exhilarating joy. Christians can and do certainly fall in to grievous sins, and may continue in them for a time. Yet even when Christians undergo God’s discipline for these sins, there is comfort and joy in knowing that this discipline is for the benefit and sanctification of the believer. Never again need the Christian fear God’s eternal wrath and condemnation, and this freedom motivates continued obedience by God’s Holy Spirit.
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Miguel, you and a lot of others need to read to scriptures in context and quite picking and chosing the ones that fit your perverted doctrine.

read Jude slowly and carefully


1 ¶ Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.

.3 ¶ Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

.4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness (teachers of Once Saved Always Saved), and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

.6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

.7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


.8 ¶ Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
.9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. (Word of Faith bunch, Joel Osteen, Rick Warren, Paul Crouch, Kim Clemment, .... and anyone that does not speak out against them)

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. (unless they repent)

.14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 ¶ To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.


20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
.24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
 

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Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on :
 
Miguel,

The perseverance of the saints is given as security for the believer?

But if the saint(s) do not persevere then they have no security. Isn’t this what is being said? I mean, you are only allowing security for perseverance, so that the security that you are speaking of has to be earned by persevering. And if the saint(s) do not persevere then the Perseverance crowd says that they probably were never believers to begin with. Yes- Calvin did say something about that also. He said that a person can be deceived into believing that they are saved when God never really saved them. There goes a good deal of false security right down the OSAS drain.

OSAS does not give true security to anyone because you can’t live in sin and enter in through the gate that is called straight. If you could then why would you ever have to persevere? If you are saved OSAS style, you have no more cares or worries, you don’t even have to pray because you are saved and cannot be lost. Just like Samson you will always be able to go out as before and defeat the Philistines. I must agree that if true OSAS would be very exhilarating, sort of like the feeling a person would get while lying on Delilah’s lap.

AMH
 

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Posted by Miguel (Member # 47) on :
 
They whom God hath accepted in His beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ, the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptation of Satan and the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall in grievous sin; AND FOR A TIME continue therein. Where by they incur Gods displeseaure and grieve His Holy Spirit and come to be deprive in some measure of their graces and comforts. You and I we both know that we go through this in our lives here on this earth!

Quote
“Peter (I Peter 1:3-5)
Peter’s words in the doxology at the opening of his first epistle are astonishingly clear:
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
The text claims that genuine believers have been given new birth into two things: a living hope and an inheritance. That inheritance is described, as being an inheritance that is imperishable, preserved or guarded in heaven for the believer. Here, the inheritance of salvation is out of the hands of the believer. Salvation belongs to God, and the inheritance we have been promised is preserved in heaven.”

It is not, It will not and be not the license to sin that many may say we or I have.


Critics of Perseverance of the Saints believe that Perseverance of the Saints will cause the body of Christ to become filled with carnality because Perseverance of the Saints teaches “free grace.” Perseverance of the Saints does not teach free grace, that is, that a person can ask for forgiveness and then live however he or she wants! People think that Perseverance of the Saints doesn’t care about sanctification but only justification. This couldn’t be further from the truth! Perseverance of the Saints teaches that those who are saved will indeed be conformed to the holy image of Christ. When a person becomes a genuine Christian we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God who grieves within us at our sin.
The Holy Spirit gives the newly created Christian a new heart and a desire to seek holiness. Perseverance of the Saints affirms that a newly converted person will truly desire nothing more than obedience to Christ. Holiness and hatred of sin will be a natural desire. If a person “gets saved” and then remains in unrepentant carnality then this person was possibly never saved in the first place. True conversion means that the body of Christ will be filled with those who love holiness. Perseverance of the Saints teaches that works are necessary, not to save, but to prove your salvation. James 2 is the key teaching of this truth. James 2 is preceded by verses like James 1:22 that says, “But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.”
James 2:18 says, “But someone might well say, ‘You have faith, and I have works’; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” James 2 concludes by saying that faith without works is not a saving faith because it is dead! 1 John 1:6 says that if we claim to have fellowship with Him and remain in darkness, we are liars! 1 John 3:9 states the strongest, "No one who is born of God practices sin, because God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot practice sin because he is born of God."
Clearly, if a person is a false convert, soon or later they will be uncovered. If a person becomes a Christian then they will willingly submit to the Lord. Perseverance of the Saints does not in any form or fashion teach “free grace.” Perseverance of the Saints does teach that when a genuine believer sins, even critically, they still remain in the grace of God because of the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ and the wonderful power of His precious blood. There is another important note: if a person, who claims to be a Christian, uses Christ’s perfect atonement to gain sin, then that person is probably not saved.

The fearful apostasy is upon us, and it is going to get worse. Someday Satan's demons are going to flourish in the world and false teachers are going to be even worse than they are now, propagating "damnable heresies" (2 Pet. 2:1). The churches are going to be loaded with apostates denying the truth. Therefore, we need to contend for the faith, as Jude said in verse 3. There is no use fearing, for we are the called, the beloved, the kept, and the blessed. When the day comes that we all go to meet with Jesus Christ, every true believer will be there, because of "Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy" (v. 3). Not only are we going to get to heaven, but guess who is going to be happy when we arrive? God Himself! So we have nothing to fear, and yet that is not an excuse for sin. The outpouring of God's loving, grateful heart ought to be the reason for our holiness. For One who would do all that He did for you, deserves all that you can give to Him.


Good night, we meet again in few month times for I will be in isolation with God.
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
BA

Calvinism - A Blasphemous Heresy

ELECTION AND REPROBATION

By T.W. BRENTS (1874)
Ed
We now come to examine the subject of unconditional election and reprobation; and that we may see the doctrine in its purity, we beg permission, to quote again from the creed:

"By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestined unto everlasting life, and others for-ordained to everlasting death. These angels and men thus predestinated and for-ordained are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished. Those of mankind that are predestined unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions or causes moving him thereunto." Confession of Faith, chap. 3 secs. 3,4,5.



It is quite easy to see that the doctrine of unconditional election and reprobation is true if the doctrine of unchangeable for-ordination obtains as to every thing that comes to pass, unless we find relief in the more ample floods of Universalism. If God has unchangeably for-ordained whatsoever comes to pass, then of course He has for-ordained just who shall be saved, and who, if any, shall be lost; and if He has unchangeably fixed the destiny of every man before time began without any conditions whatever, then Calvinism or Universalism must be true. But we think we have seen that God did not so ordain everything, (see article on Predestination ) and hence this doctrine can not support either of the others. If either stands at all, it must be proved by other testimony. For the present, then, we propose to inquire whether or not God has unconditionally and unchangeably fixed the destiny of a definite number of two classes--- the elect and the reprobate.

And first, we remark that the words elect, elected, election, reprobate, and reprobates, are Biblical terms; hence there must be a Bible doctrine concerning them. Elect means to choose; hence the elect of God are God's chosen. God has elected persons, families, nations, and bodies or organizations in different ages of the world, for the benefit of his creatures, but the final salvation and happiness of the elected were by no means secured by their election. On the contrary, God's elect have to "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling." Phil. 2:12. Hence in very many instances they had sinned and fallen far from the favor of God, and often forfeited the positions to which they were elected. But to comprehend the whole subject we must inquire who were elected and for what purposes; then we may be able to see what effect, if any, their election had upon their final destiny.

" Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him; he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles; he shall not cry nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth." Isa. 42:1-3. That the servant of God here called his elect was Jesus the Christ may be seen by reference to Matt. 12:17-21., where this prophecy is quoted by Jesus as fulfilled in himself. Surely, it will be admitted that Jesus was not elected to secure His own salvation, but to be the Savior of men. "Wherefore also it is contained in Scripture, Behold I lay in Zion a chief corner-stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded." 1 Pet. 2:6. Here Jesus is represented as the elect corner-stone of the church, on whom others believe to their salvation. But we are more concerned in examining the election of men, as individuals, collective bodies, and nations.

Aaron and his sons were not only elected, but consecrated and anointed priests of God, and officiated in that most sacred office for themselves and the people. In the eighth chapter of Leviticus may be found an account of the grand and sublime ceremony with which they were inducted into that holy office. Thus the male portion of a family were elected and inducted into the priesthood; and what became of them? The Lord said: "Aaron shall be gathered unto his people, for he shall not enter into the land which I have given unto the children of Israel, because ye rebelled against my word at the water of Meribah. Take Aaron and Eleazar his son, and bring them up unto Mount Hor; and strip Aaron of his garments, and put them upon Eleazar his son, and Aaron shall be gathered unto his people, and shall die there." Num. 20:24-28. "Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the Lord, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the Lord and devoured them., and they died before the Lord." Lev. 10:1, 2. Now, if the doctrine of eternal unconditional election and reprobation be true, to which class did Nadab and Abihu belong? Did God elect them from the non-elect, or eternally reprobate, and anoint them priests to officiate in the tabernacle, having previously determined upon their destruction, and unchangeably for-ordained the wickedness for which He intended to kill them? Or were they of the eternally elect, and their interest in heaven made sure before "the foundation of the world," and God killed them for wickedness which He had unchangeably for-ordained they should do, that He might take then home to glory? Is it not more rational to conclude that God elected them, anointed and consecrated them priests, intending to be with and bless them as long as they were faithful to Him, and punish then when they forsook Him; and that their unhappy end was the result of their own voluntary rebellion against the law of the Lord?

God elected Saul to be the first king of Israel. He told Samuel how he might know him; and having presented him to the people, "Samuel said to all the people, See ye him whom the Lord hath chosen, that there is none like him among all the people? And all the people shouted and said, God save the king." 1 Sam. 10:24. He has not only elected him, but he gave him the spirit of prophecy, and when "a company of the priests met him, The Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them." 1 Sam. 10:10. Nor was this all, but he sacredly anointed him to reign over his people. "Then Samuel took a vial of oil, and poured it upon his head, and kissed him, and said, Is it not because the Lord hath anointed thee to be captain over his inheritance?" 1 Sam. 10:1. The Lord was with him and prospered him in battle, as long as he was faithful to Him, but when he disobeyed Him, Samuel said, "Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is an iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king." 1 Sam. 15:22, 23. " Will the reader observe the fact that he was rejected, not because God had eternally reprobated him, or unchangeably for-ordained his rejection, but because he rejected the word of the Lord. From these examples we learn that when God elected any one to any position however important, it did not unconditionally secure for him an entrance into the climes of endless bliss, or even a continuance in the office to which he was elected; but on the contrary the general principle is quite apparent that He blessed and prospered him as long as he continued faithful to His will, and failed not to punish and reject him when he rebelled against Him.

Brent gives lengthy examples of the election of nations, especially of Israel. He points out that the Church is directed to the example of Israel's failings and the warnings that these have for the Church.

Now, we would note the fact that the Jewish age was a typical age: the church in the wilderness was, in a sense, a type of the church of God; Moses, the Jewish lawgiver, was in a sense, a type of Christ our lawgiver.; Aaron, the Jewish high priest, was a type of Christ our High Priest; the Jewish priests were types of Christians in the gospel age who are priests now. --- Hence says Peter, "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." 1 Pet. 2:5. And again, verse 9, he says, "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people." Then if these elect types, from the least to the greatest, both as individuals and as one body, had to be faithful to God or forfeit their election, may we not in the same way forfeit our election? After telling us that "with many of them God was not well pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness," Paul says: " These things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." 1 Cor. 10:5-12. We know not how the apostle could have given more conclusive proof that the number of the elect composing the church of God at Corinth, was liable to be diminished by apostasy than is here given. He tells them of the overthrow of many of the Jews, and mentions, specifically, the sins for which thousands of them fell, and tells them that these things happened to them as examples, and are written for our admonition; "wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." But why this admonition, if the numbers of the elect and reprobate are so certain and definite that they can neither be increased nor diminished? Were this true, Paul's most solemn warning to his brethren was a mere "rawhead and bloody bones," to alarm them when there was no danger, for none of them could fall! And the creed is consistent with itself, if not with the Bible at this point; for it says:

"They whom God accepted in his Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from a state of grace;

but shall certainly persevere therein to the end and be saved.

This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election,

flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ;

the abiding of the Spirit and the seed of God within them; and the nature of the covenant of grace;

from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof." Chap. xvii, secs. 1, 2.

The doctrine here set out is a necessary outgrowth of the doctrine of unconditional election and reprobation. If God has unchangeably fixed the destiny of every man before time began, then it follows that such destiny can not be changed by any act of the creature-- nay, not even by the Creator; for that which is unchangeable can not be changed even by God himself. Therefore none of the eternally elect can fall if that doctrine obtains; and whenever it is clearly shown that a Christian may apostatize, and be lost, the whole theory of unconditional election and reprobation is exploded. We will therefore be somewhat careful to see how this is. And if there was not another sentence in the Bible touching the subject, Paul's most solemn warning to the Corinthians would be quite sufficient to settle the question forever. He tells them of the fall of the Jews as examples to his brethren, and that their deplorable end was recorded as a solemn admonition to others, lest they, feeling secure, might fall. What could be more conclusive? In the last verse of the preceding chapter, the apostle says, " I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." 1 Cor. 9:27. If Paul, the great apostle to the Gentiles, had to keep such constant watch-care over himself, lest, after all his labor, he could be lost, is it not possible that others may fall? It is not necessary to show that Paul was one of the elect, for this will surely be admitted: yet he was in danger of falling; and had he fallen, would not the number of the elect have been diminished thereby, and the number of the reprobate correspondingly increased?

Jesus said: "I am the vine, ye are the branches. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit; for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into fire, and they are burned." John 15:5, 6. Why charge them to abide in him, if they could not do otherwise than abide in him? and why liken them to withered and dry branches which men gather and cast into the fire to be burned, if by reason of the immutability of the decree of election they could not do otherwise than persevere to the end and be eternally saved?

Paul tells Timothy of "Hymeneus and Philetus; who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is passed already; and overthrow the faith of some." 2 Tim. 2:18. Here were persons who had faith, and that faith was overthrown by false teaching. Surely, these persons were of the elect, for the creed tells us that:

"The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts." Chap. xiv. sec. I.

Without stopping for the present to inquire how the elect, whose souls never could have been lost, can believe to the saving of their souls, we remark that faith is the work of the Spirit in the heart of the elect, according to the creed; hence Hymeneus and Philetus diminished the number of the elect just as many as there were persons whose faith they overthrew.

But we will hear what Paul has to say to the Hebrews, chap. 6:4-6. "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew then again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." Here it is most clearly taught that even those who had been blessed with those extraordinary spiritual manifestations peculiar to the age of the apostles, might fall away; else why the language, " If we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses; of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and have counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" Heb. 10:26-29. Here was a sorer punishment than death awaiting, under certain conditions, persons who had been sanctified by the blood of the covenant. Surely, these sanctified persons were of the elect, even according to the creed, for it says:

Sanctification is a work of God's grace, whereby they, whom God hath, before the foundation of the world, chosen to be holy, are, in time, through the powerful operation of his Spirit, applying the death and resurrection of Christ unto them, renewed in their whole man after the image of God." Larger Catechism, answer to Question 75.

Then Paul intended to teach that God's elect, after sanctification by the blood of the new covenant, might sin willfully and be worthy of sorer punishment than those who died without mercy under the law of Moses. But we will hear from Peter on the subject. He says: "If after they had escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, and they are again entangled therein and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them; but it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again, and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in in mire." 2 Pet. 2: 20-22. Here we find that persons who escaped the pollutions of the world may again be entangled in and overcome by them; and we are clearly told that if they are so overcome, then the latter end with them is worse than the beginning. Better for them not to have obeyed the gospel at all than to turn back into wickedness. As the sow that was washed may go back to wallowing in the mire, so may he who was cleansed from sin become worse than before.

Paul testified to such of his Galatian brethren as were circumcised, that "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." Gal. 5:4. Here, it seems to us, all controversy on the possibility of "falling from grace" should cease. We see no place for further argument on the subject; indeed, we know not how to make an argument on a passage like this. We have learned how to reason from premises to conclusions, but here there is no room for reason. When Paul most solemnly testifies that such as had turned back to the law and had been circumcised had "fallen from grace," it must simply be accepted as true, or the truth of the statement denied. Surely, these were once in grace--in favor with God--in Christ--for it would be the merest twaddle to talk about persons falling from positions which they never occupied. This being true, it follows that every person who thus falls diminishes the number of the elect and increases the number of the reprobate; hence the whole theory of unconditional election and reprobation is untrue.

But it is not only true that Christians, God's elect, may fall as individuals, but it is also true that congregations composing the "church of God" at certain places may fall. In proof of this position we would refer the reader to the several messages to the Asiatic churches. To the church at Ephesus, God said, "Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee; because thou hast left thy first love. remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." Rev. 2:4, 5. Certainly, this had reference to the removal of the church as a body.

To the church of the Laodiceans he said: "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot; I would that thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth." Rev. 3:15-17. Here is a church which God said he would spew out of his mouth, and after many epithets of reproach upon it he gives it such counsel as would enable it to reinstate itself in his favor by reformation and obedience. God said, " If the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do what is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have i any pleasure at all that the wicked shall die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All the righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them he shall die. Yet ye say, the way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel : is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth and turneth away from all his transgressions that he committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die." Ezek. 18: 21-28. This general principle characterizes all God's dealings with man in every age of the world.

We come now to consider the doctrine of eternal unconditional election and reprobation in its bearing on the subject of the atonement. If God, before the foundation of the world, unconditionally ordained just who and how many should be saved, and who and how many would be lost, then of course the atonement made by Christ could not reach those who were fore-ordained to dishonor and wrath, and therefore they could not have any interest in his death. Indeed it is difficult, according to the theory, to see the benefits of Christ's death at all; for the atonement could not make the salvation of the elect anymore secure, nor could it possibly change the condition or chances of the reprobate. Here again the creed is consistent with itself, as far as the reprobate is concerned, for it does not assume that the benefits of the atonement can in any way reach them; not because ant fault in them, but because Christ did not die for them. It says:

Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only."

Chap. 3, sec. 6.



Then, when it is shown that Christ died for all men, the doctrine of unconditional election and reprobation will have been again exploded. Paul says, "We see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man." Heb. 2:9. What can this mean? It can mean nothing less than that Christ died for every man. Surely, it would require elastic rules of interpretation to supply the word elect here, so as to make it read that " Jesus tasted death for every elect man." Before making this addition to the word of the Lord, let the reader consider well the following quotation: "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book." Rev. 22:18.

" For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life; for God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." John 3:16, 17. Here we find that the love of God extended to the world, and the object of sending His Son into the world was the salvation of the world. But here again we are asked to supply the word elect, so as to restrict the love of God to the elect. But the same apostle, in another place, supplies a word better calculated to give his use of the word world as connected with the atonement. He says, "He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2. Could language be more ample or comprehensive? and would anyone ever have thought of restricting its meaning to the whole "elect" world, had not the salvation of a theory required it? We know that the word world is sometimes used in a limited sense--that is, when it is intended to apply to a part, and not all the human race; but it applies in such cases to the wicked, as distinguished from the elect. A single example will abundantly show this. Jesus said to his disciples: "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love its own; but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." John 15:18, 19. In the quotation the word world occurs several times in a limited sense, but every time it refers to the wicked as distinguished from the elect. But the context itself utterly forbids any such restricted use of the term in John 3:16, 17. Let us examine it a little. The passage not only teaches that God loved the world, but also that the object of sending His Son into the world was that the world might not perish, but have everlasting life. Then if the love of God, and the world to whom He sent His Son, be confirmed to the elect world, it follows that whosoever of this elect world believes on Him may not perish; but others of the elect world may not believe on Him, and therefore perish. This view is quite prominent in the verse immediately following: "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18. That is, he, of this elect world that God loved, and to whom He sent His Son, that believeth not, is condemned already. This doctrine the advocates of the theory will not allow. And it will do no better to confine the word world to the Jews, reading it thus: God so loved the Jewish world that he sent his only begotten Son, " etc.: for that would exclude all others but Jews from the benefits of the atonement, even the makers of the creed themselves. Nor will it do to apply the word world here to the Roman Empire, for this would exclude all other nations, and thus come in direct conflict with the commission sending apostles to disciple all nations, and into all the world to preach to every creature. Then it must mean just what it says: "He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world." "Because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: and that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again." 2 Cor. 5:14, 15. Here the apostle clearly teaches that Christ died for all affected by the sin of Adam; hence the language: "If one died for all, then were all dead. " Then as "death passed upon all men" (Rom.5:12), even so Christ died for all men. "Therefore, as by the offense of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." Rom. 5:18. Without turning aside to offer exegesis of this verse, it is sufficient for our present purpose to call attention to the very obvious fact that, as Adam's sin affects all men, even so the benefits of Christ's death are offered to all men. To the same effect spake Jesus when He said: "I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die." John 12:32, 33. Surely, he did not expect all men to be drawn unto Him by His death unless all were interested in His death. What attraction could this death have for a reprobate, when he knew He died not for him, or any but the elect?

Again: Paul says, "there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." 1 Tim. 2:5, 6. Here, as usual, Paul is in contact with the theory which says substantially that Christ gave Himself a ransom for the elect only. "There is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave Himself a ransom for all." Wherefore He is able to save them to the uttermost that come to God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for those for whom he died; therefore he died to the uttermost that come to God by him. Surely, we can not be mistaken in this.

When the angel of the Lord announced the birth of Christ to the shepherds who watched their flocks in the plains of Judea, he, said, "Fear not: for, behold, I bring you glad tidings of great joy, which shall be to all the people." Luke 2:10. It occurs to us that the angel would have spoken more like the creed had he said, "Behold, I bring you glad tidings of great joy, which shall be to the elect." Surely, the announcement of Savior born could not have been glad tidings of great joy to those who were eternally reprobate, and therefore could not hope for an interest in His mission and death, or the atonement made by Him. Nor is it very easy to see how the news of His birth could have been glad tidings of great joy even to the elect, for He could not make their salvation any more secure than when it was made by the immutable decree of election. Peter did not so understand the subject, for he said, "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure." Then it was not already sure. But why strive to make it sure? "For if ye do these things, ye shall never fall." 2 Pet. 1:10. Then if they did not do these things they would fall, and make void their election; at least they would be liable to do so. Hence, as the announcement of His birth was glad tidings of great joy to all people, it is certain that Christ died for all people; and therefore all people may be saved through the atonement made by Him. It is certain that not all will be saved; but it will not be because the provisions of the atonement did not embrace them, but because they would not accept salvation as offered to them.

It is conceded by all parties that Christ died for the elect or saved; hence we propose next to show that He also died for such as have been or may be lost. Paul says: "But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died." Rom. 14:15. "And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died." 1 Cor. 8:11. These passages teach as clearly as language can teach anything that there were members of the church of God, both at Rome and at Corinth, for whom Christ died, who were liable to perish--be destroyed; hence Christ died as well for those who perish--be destroyed-- as much as He did for those who are saved. These passages show, too, that the disciples at Rome and Corinth were liable to fall away--perish--be destroyed; hence the admonition to those in charge of the weaker members to guard against such result. How can it be, then, that the destiny of every one was immutably fixed by the decree of election? But we will hear another Apostle on the same subject. Peter says: "But there were false prophets among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." 2 Pet. 2:1. Here were false teachers that denied the Lord that bought them, and thereby brought upon themselves swift destruction. How did the lord buy them? Paul admonished certain persons "to feed the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood." Acts 20:28. Then it was with the blood of Christ that He bought or purchased these false teacher who denied Him, and destroyed themselves. Before leaving this passage, we may note another fact which appears in it. These false teachers brought destruction upon themselves; and this they could not have done if they were eternally and unchangeably ordained dishonor and wrath by God's decree. The decree destroyed them, and no acts of theirs--if such a decree was made concerning them.

We next propose to show that salvation is attainable by all men, because the gospel of salvation is to be preached to all men. Jesus charged the apostles to "teach all nations, baptizing them." Matt. 27:19. And again: " Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." Mark 16:15. Why preach the gospel to every creature when the larger portion were not embraced in its provisions? It occurs to us that something like the following would have been more appropriate: "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to the elect., that they may know the ample provisions made for them before the foundation of the world; but to the reprobate say nothing, for as they can not by ant possibility avert the awful doom that surely awaits them, it is better to let them remain ignorant of their fate as long as possible." If this be true, we can see no use of all the labor and expense of printing Bibles, building meeting-houses, and preaching the gospel to either saint or sinner. If we are of the definite number elected and for-ordained to eternal life, there is no chance for us to be lost; and if not, we can not be saved. We have often heard this doctrine preached from the pulpit, when the sermon closed with an exhortation to sinners to come to the anxious seat to seek salvation or pray for pardon of sin. What a mockery! Why tell a man that God has unalterably fixed his destiny before time began, and then exhort him "flee from the wrath to come" and "lay hold on eternal life"--as though he could either change or confirm God's eternal and immutable decree! Surely, his efforts could do no good, nor could his negligence do any harm, for:

"Those of mankind that are predestined unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose,

and the secret counsel of his good pleasure of his will, has chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace of love,

without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them,

or any other thing in the creature, as conditions or causes moving him thereunto. " Conf., chap. iii, sec. 5.

Thus we see that faith, good works, nor any other thing, can avail, for the whole matter was unalterably fixed before time began. Salvation, upon certain conditions, was the great object of preaching the gospel to every creature; and among these conditions faith occupies a conspicuous place: "Faith commeth by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Rom. 10:17. Hence the necessity of preaching the gospel-- teaching the word of God to every creature, that he might have the privilege of believing and obeying it; therefore the promise: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Rom. 10:9. And, "He that believeth not on him is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18. The fact that Jesus required the gospel to be preached among all the nations, to every creature, promising salvation to those who would beleive and obey it., is evidence high as heaven that all may have salvation who will accept it on the conditions specified. Surely, God would not mock His creatures by preaching the gospel, and offering salvation to them on certain conditions, when He had eternally and unchangeably ordained that they should not be saved, and put it out of the reach of their power to comply with the terms offered. Nor is this all: He follows the promise of conditional salvation with the awful threat that " He that believeth not is condemned already." We can not see why anyone should be required to believe and trust in a Savior who did nothing for them, and believe and obey a gospel which made absolutely no provision to embrace them. Men are required to believe upon and trust in Jesus, in order to have salvation: " Many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: but these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God." And why believe this? "That believing ye might have life through his mane." John 20:30, 31. Jesus said, " He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36. Thus we see that man is denied eternal life, and subjected to the abiding wrath of God, not because of any eternal decree against him personally, but because of his unbelief; hence "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already." And why is he condemned already? Is it because of God's eternal decree against him? No; but "because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18.

Thus the justice of God is vindicated in the punishment of man. If he is not saved, it will not be because God eternally and unchangeably ordained his destruction; nor will it be because God willed not his salvation. Hear Him most solemnly deny such an imputation: "If the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die." All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him. In his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked shall die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways and live." Ezek. 18:21-23. "For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God; wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye." Ver. 32. And again: "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death if the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live.' Ezek. 33:11. This is either true or it is untrue. If God, from all eternity, fixed the destiny of all men, and ordained a definite number to life and a definite number to dishonor and wrath, and that according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy as He pleaseth" (Conf., chap. iii, sec. 7), then we see not how God has not pleasure in and wills not that which is according to the secret counsel and good pleasure of His own will. It requires greater skill than we possess to harmonize the Bible and the creed here. "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that anyone should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Pet. 3:9. How can this be true, if God fixed the destiny of each one in accordance with the unsearchable counsel of his will before time began? He who can, may explain.

Paul says: " I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings, and for all in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth." 1 Tim. 2:1-4. Here we learn that all men are the objects of prayer. And why? Because God wills the salvation of all men. Then if all are not saved, it will be because "ye will not come to me that ye might have life." John 5:40. Their own obdurate will is the great barrier to the salvation of men. When Jesus beheld the wickedness of the people of Jerusalem, and the consequent destruction that awaited them, he said: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" Matt. 23:37. Mark well the reason: "Ye would not!" Yes, the Son of God would gladly have saved them from the danger which threatened them, even as He would now save all who would come to God by Him; yet they would not -neither will ye. "The Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Rev. 22:17. Not whosoever was elected from all eternity, but whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Then whosoever perishes is lost because he will not partake of that which is freely offered to him. His unending wail may be, "God is just, though I am lost."

Jesus said, "The Son of man is come to seek and to save that which is lost." Luke 19:10. Was there ever a time when the elect were lost? If so, when? The creed tells us that they were predestined unto life before the foundation of the world was laid; hence, if they were ever lost, it must have been before that: therefore they could not have been the objects of Christ's mission, for these were lost when He came to earth as a man. Again He says: "They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I come not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Mark 2:17; Luke 5:31, 32. Were the eternally elect the sinners which Jesus came to call to repentance? Surely, they were not sick enough to invoke the aid of Jesus, the great Physician, for they were eternally and immutably ordained to eternal life; hence that were not sick--in any case, they could not have been sick to the point of spiritual death.

The Scriptures abound with testimony showing that men are not elect before conversion. A few passages of this class are all for which we have room in this work. In speaking to the Ephesians brethren, Paul tells us that they were "by nature the children of wrath, even as others." Eph. 2:3. If they had been elected to salvation before time began, we see not how, at any time, they could have been children of wrath, even as others not of the elect. Again: "Ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his." Rom. 8:9. All persons know that, prior to conversion, the Spirit of Christ was not in them, and hence, at the time, they are none of His; yet, according to the theory, they were always His. "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." Rom. 8:14. Then of course the converse is true, that as many as are not led by the Spirit of God are not the sons of God. All unconverted persons are led by the spirit of the wicked one., and not by the Spirit of God; therefore no unconverted man is a son of God. It will be conceded that the elect are sons of God; hence when not the sons of God, none are elect. "Know ye no your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates." 2 Cor. 13:5. Prior to conversion, Christ is in no one. Paul says, "I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you." Gal. 4:19. As Christ has to be formed in men, it follows that He was not always in them; and when He is not in them, they are reprobates: therefore none are elect until converted. "If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." 2 Cor. 5:17. If all the elect were "in Christ" before the foundation of the world, then conversion makes no man a new creature in Him; for if any person were "in Christ" at all, then they were always in Him. Paul says, "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." Rom. 16:7. If Paul and his kinsmen were in Christ from before the foundation of the world, then he made a most egregious blunder here. When has it, and how is it that they were in Christ before him? Once more: "They that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." Gal. 5:24. Then those that have not crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts are not Christ's. There was a time in the history of every man when he had not crucified the flesh with the affection and lusts, and therefore a time when he was not Christ's. All the elect are Christ's; therefore there was a time in the life of every man when he was not one of the elect: hence none are personally and unconditionally elected to eternal life from before the foundation of the world.

Speaking of his brethren in the Lord, Peter said: "Ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of the darkness into his marvelous light: which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God; which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." 1 Pet. 2:9, 10. Here, again, we know not how to make an argument. This passage is so manifestly opposed to the whole theory of eternal and unconditional election and reprobation that there is no room to reason about it. These were a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; hence they were God's elect beyond controversy: yet in time past they were not a people, but then were the people of God. Do you say these were Gentiles? Suppose they were: what relief does this bring to the theory? It only shows the more clearly that once they were not God's people; yet when the apostle wrote, they were God's people--yes, verily, they were His peculiar people. Were they elected in Christ before the foundation of the world? Then we would gladly like to know at what time in the past it was at which they were not the people of God. Once they had not obtained mercy. When was this? Elected to eternal life before the foundation of the world, out of God's mere free grace and love, and yet had not obtained mercy!!!

But if the doctrine already quoted from the Confession is true--that before the foundation of the world was laid, according an eternal and immutable purpose, without any foresight of faith or good works, or anything else in man, God unconditionally elected some men and angels to eternal life, and at the same time for-ordained the residue to dishonor and eternal wrath--then we know not how to avoid the conclusion that He is a respecter of persons. Against this imputation upon the character of our Heavenly Father, at least two inspired pens have given testimony. Paul said, "There is no respect of persons with God." Rom. 2:11. Again: "He that doeth wrong, shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons." Col. 3:25. Once more: "And ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him." Eph. 6:9. It is probable that Peter once had similar thoughts upon this subject to those of Calvinists now. Certain it is that he thought the privileges and blessings of the gospel were confined to the Jews, and it required nothing less than a miracle to convince him of his error; but when convinced, he at once replied: "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons." Acts 10:34. From that time he gladly taught the gospel to those previously regarded unworthy of its privileges. Finally, let us examine the subject of a general judgment through Calvinistic glasses.

" the times of ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent: because he hath appointed a day in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained." Acts 17:30, 31. But why appoint a day of judgment in which judge the world, if the numbers of the elect and reprobate were made certain and definite beyond increase or diminution before time began? Surely, the line of separation was drawn deep and wide between them by the immutable decree which assigned each one his position long in advance of his being. But God will judge the world in righteousness; therefore his judgment will be in accordance with the principles of justice: "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." 2 Cor. 5:10. John says: 'And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." Rev. 20:12, 13. Why judge a man according to his works, when everything he did was specifically ordained and put out of his control before time began? Why not judge him, if at all, according to the eternal decree which immutably fixed his destiny? From such a standpoint as Calvinism, the whole theory of future judgment seems to us a most sublimely ridiculous farce.

That the decree of election, and not the things done in the body, is the rule of law by which Calvinism proposes to judge the world, is further shown by the fact that reprobate infants that die in infancy are consigned to eternal misery for no other reason than they were not of the elect. (Editors note: Most modern Calvinists are ashamed of the logical conclusions of their fatalistic theology and now usually make infants automatically part of the elect. This they do however, without any Biblical warrant, and against the historical Calvinistic statements on the subject. They cannot possibly know who is elect, to include children, or even themselves, since according to the theory, those who are elected are chosen "without any foresight of faith or good works or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature," which excludes any consideration that they are children, and makes the destiny of each individual a mystery known only to God before all eternity.) On page 64, chap. x, sec. 3, the creed says: "Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit, who worketh when and where and how he pleaseth. So also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the word." Yes, elect infants are saved by Christ; but what of the non-elect? "Others not elected, though they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come to Christ, and therefore can not be saved." The words "elect infants" clearly implies that there are non-elect infants. The above quotation that elect infants dying in infancy are saved; and of course, the non-elect infants dying in infancy, or in living to adult age, cannot be saved, as Christ never died for them, or any but the elect. Though you may consign your infant to the tomb while so young that it never could have had a wicked thought or done a wicked act, yet you have no assurance of its ever being raised in the image of Christ, for the reason you cannot tell whether it is, or is not, one of the elect. No, you cannot tell whether its little tongue will be employed in praising God, or in fruitless cries and bitter wailings in the eternal pit of despair, for no fault of its own, or anyone else, but simply because God unchangeably decreed it that horrible fate. Calvinism has no escape from this difficulty. The numbers of the elect and reprobate having been made certain and definite before time began, it follows that he who is reprobate--at all, was so at birth; Hence those who die in that condition are hopelessly lost. There is no remedy that can reach such cases. Therefore, Calvinists who are not prepared for such results should abandon a theory which necessarily produces them.
 

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Posted by GodGiven (Member # 4960) on :
 
There are alot of things that become opinion like in the beginning God made light.. In the beginning God made man.. those are all facts of the bible. You can't believe one verse and deny the verse in the next chapter. That's Luke Warm and luke warm will be spewed out of his mouth in the end times. Why do we discuss the hearts of man when Jesus said you'll them by their fruit, and all who abide in the vine abide in me and I in thee. That's what the word says so who is anyone to question the word, you believe all of the bible and all God says or you believe half of God? The bible says it clearing in John 3:16 he didn't say this doesn't apply to murders or rapist he just simply said what he said. Why debate the word of God? Why not accept what it says? And who is anyone that feels they have a right to judge a heart or a soul? If we concentrate on Jesus as much as we do others maybe we'd see more.
I think the bibles pretty clear.
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
Rom.6

1. [23] For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


ETERNAL LIFE....are the key words.


Also if you are sealed by the HolySpirit how can you get unsealed.

John.6

1. [27] Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.


2Cor.1

1. [22] Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph.1

1. [13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph.4

1. [30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
 

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Posted by RioLion (Member # 1875) on :
 
Scripture seems to support the view that salvation or eternal life is a present possession and that those that are truly regenerated are sealed by the Holy Spirit indicating possession of God.(see Eph. 4:20, etc.)

It is interesting that those that believe one can lose his or her salvation are mostly from a Roman Catholic or cultic 'Christian' denomination.
 

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Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on :
 
RioLion,

You’re posting dated 8-12-05 10:01 PM seems to be painting the Roman Catholic Church and certain Protestant denominations together in a bad light.

Is it you’re position that the only churches that are to be condemned for being like the Roman Catholic are the ones that are not Calvinistic?

Is there no Roman doctrine that you would agree with?

If there is some Roman doctrine that you agree with does this make you cultic?

Actually the Roman Catholic Church and classical Calvinists have much in common don’t they?

Isn’t it true that the Calvinists sprang from Romanism thus the name Reformed Theology?

Wouldn’t it just be easier to say that the Roman Catholic Church is the mother church and that all the Protestant denominations are its daughters?

AMH
 

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Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
Mystery Babylon the Great (RCC) The Mother of

Harlots (Protestant denominations)

and of the Abominations of the Earth.
 

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Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on :
 
If this is true then where is the real church?
 

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Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
Church is not a denomiation or an organization, but a body of believers. It is the Eeklessia, meaning the called out ones, Not ones Called into a "system".

Yahweh is not the inventor of denominations.

Where is the "real" church. Only Yahweh knows for sure. The wheats and tares grow together until He alone seperates them.

To the Early Christians, Rome was Babylon, The Mother of Idolatry (Idols, hmmmm, sounds like RCC to me)and all its evils.
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Amen yahsway,

quote:

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quote:

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Yahweh is not the inventor of denominations.

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quote:

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Where is the "real" church. Only Yahweh knows for sure. The wheats and tares grow together until He alone seperates them.

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quote:

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To the Early Christians, Rome was Babylon, The Mother of Idolatry (Idols, hmmmm, sounds like RCC to me)and all its evils.

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True Christians were killed all day long because they would not bow and worship the Roman Catholic Church,

while the Roman Catholics were killing Potestants , Protestants were killing Catholics

but Roman Catholic and Protestants were killing the Anti-Baptist

only the Anti-Baptist were hated by everyone Rome, Potestants, and Roman Catholics

Potestants, and Roman Catholics hated Anti-Baptist because they would no except infant baptism (a form of once saved always saved)
 

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Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on :
 
Yahsway,(and others),

Am I really suppose to take your “wheat and tare” point serious? Verse 30 of Matthew chapter 9 says-

30) Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

How do you get around the fact that Jesus says that the tares are gathered first?

If the Catholics are contradicting the Lord of the Sabbath then are not others contradicting the Lord of the Harvest?

I know that you will not give me quotes from Paul and the rest of the Apostles to supersede that of Jesus.

AMH
 

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Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on :
 
Verse 30 of chapter 13--sorry
 

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Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
Yes AMH,Matt 13:30 is exactly my point. We wont know who the TRUE church (eeklessia) is until He alone seperates the Wheat from the tares.

As far as your question about if the Catholics are condradicting the Lord of the Sabbath, and others possibly condradicting the Lord of the harvest, well YES. This is a true statement.

Notice the tares are gathered First, and there are other scriptures to back this up. So this tells me there is no "secret" rapture" of the church.

They will both grow togethere until He seperates them, and the tares are taken first.

As scriptures say, we have "inherited lies" from our fathers. Shalom
 

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Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on :
 
Very good yahsway; but how will the reapers know which is which?

AMH
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
We studied about the rapture in Sunday School this morning. I believe one of these days the Church will meet Jesus in the air. Yes, it will be a secret rapture. In the twinkling of an eye we will be with Jesus and the world will then come up with all kinds of theories of where the Church went. The Bible says Jesus is coming back for those who are eager looking for His return. I pray every day for the rapture to take place soon.
betty
 

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Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
AMH, I would say that the reapers(angels, messangers) will know us by our seal or in other words, the ones who are sealed by Yeshua.

verse 41: The Son of Adam shall send out His messangers, and they shall gather out of His reignnall the stumbling blocks, and those DOING lawlessness.

49; thus shall it be at the end of the age: the messenagers shall come forth, and seperate the wicked out of the midst of the rightous.

Lawlessness is the Darnel which the devil sowed, and sprouts and takes shape in the form of lawless "believers" Those who say but Lord, look what we did in your name and He says depart from me you who work iniquity(lawlessness) I never knew you. Shalom
 

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Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on :
 
I want to give credit where credit is due. Those that believe in a secret rapture have done a very good job of getting their message across. In fact, so good of a job that just about everyone knows about the secret rapture.

Just what is so secret about it? Is there something about it that you are not telling us?

yahsway,

Saul of Tarsus received authority from the high Priest in Jerusalem to go to Damascus, arrest the Christians and bring them back to Jerusalem. Before he was struck down blind he had no trouble figuring out who the Christians were.

How could a non-believer, one who was not Spirit filled be able to do such a thing if what you say is true about only Yahweh knowing?

AMH
 

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Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
AMH, I agree with you. But it is not like that today. The christians of that period were called people of "The Way, a New Religon if you will. So I agree that Saul knew who they were.

But look around today. It is not totally impossible to tell who a true christian is, but there are many wolves in sheeps clothing and many being led astray, and even in the different denominations Im sure you would agree that the tares are growing side by side with the wheat. Only Yahweh God and Yeshua know for sure who their sheep are, for only God can totally know the heart of a person.

My point is that the messangers in the scripture in Matt. are the angels who will seperate the wheat from the Tares and Yeshua seperates the sheep from the goats. Until then, the True Church or Called Out Ones are only really known by the Father.

Yes, it was much easier to know who were True followers of Christ in Pauls day, but i am of the opinon it is not so easy to know today. Maybe thats why the "servants" (true christians) of the Master of the house were told when asked if they should gather up the tares not to do so lest they also uproot the wheat with them. We as the servants might make a mistake in this, for only God knows the true wheat from the true Tares.

Anyway, this is just my opinon mind you. With all the different denominations plus the the RCC claiming to be the "true" church, its simply harder to tell in this day and time as it was back when the origional Church was being established. Shalom
 

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Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
I was just thinking, maybe also, when persecutions do come, we will be able to know for sure who the Real Church body of believers are, for they will not love their lives even unto death.

Maybe it will be at that time when the true body of believers are known by all. This will probably be the defining point I guess. Until then, we grow together. Does this make any sense? Shalom
 

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Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on :
 
yahsway,

There is a lot to be said about persecution, but for now-

If we cannot tell who a believer is then how do we explain to someone how to become a believer? I am not trying to be difficult yahsway. I have pointed out in a previous posting that Calvin said, (and you can look this up elsewhere) there are people who are deceived into believing that they are saved. These people Calvin said are the ones who fall back. In other words they were never really saved to begin with. What Calvin’s doctrine boils down to is that if you accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, repenting of your sins and follow Him that this means nothing. But the Bible says that we can know Him and know that He knows us and that others will also know.

There is no secret rapture for the secret Christian.

AMH
 

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Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
AMH, Agree!
 

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Posted by IAAFOTL (Member # 6414) on :
 
It is not true that only God knows who His sheep are. It is true that He knows who ALL of His sheep are, but it is also true that we will be known by our fruits by anyone looking. It's not supposed to be the best kept secret.
Some people's relationships with Jesus are so "personal" you would never know they had one.

(chances are they don't)

We are called to be separate. And we need to examine ourselves frequently. We should be able to be known by our fruits.

Yes, I will agree, that new Christians who are still walking after the flesh, it can be hard to tell the difference sometimes, and God knows they are His, even if the world can't tell yet. But the important thing is that they, (we) don't remain there.

We have to move from Romans chapter 7 to Romans chapter 8 and we will by the power of the Holy Spirit, when we keep Him close.

Just late last night I was burdened to address the false and dangerous doctrine of OSAS. I wrote an extensive teaching with the Lord's help. You can get to it from the home page of my Christian site.

You'll see it there in the middle where the Devotionals section is. You can click the "Current Devotion" graphic or the link that says
"The Danger of the False Doctrine of OSAS"

Jesus is coming soon. Don't wait until it is too late to know the Truth!

Click Here
 

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Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Isnt this age old OSAS debate a waste of time? IF God is the one who determines whether or not we have saving faith, our main concern should be examining our own hearts whether or not we are truely in the faith....instead of worrying about whether or not we could lose what we believe we have. The words of Jesus lay forth all the conditions for salvation...they are the measuring rod for each of us. In this, we do not find ourselves measuring each other for the standard , but by the words printed in red which are the true and just measure.
 

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Posted by IAAFOTL (Member # 6414) on :
 
I agree with you however, unfortunately there are those preaching a false version of the security of the believer that the Bible does not teach and apparently it isn't "old enough" as the false teaching is still very much alive and thriving, and misleading people into believing that they are saved, when they are not, but rather have been deceived.

And please take note that not just the words in red are Christ's words. Jesus IS the Word of God. Every word that proceeds from the mouth of God are words for us to live by.

2 Timothy 3:15-17

"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
 

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Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
I agree IAAFOTL with your response. Maybe I should not have used the words "words printed in red" because not all bibles include the highlighted words of the Lord...I just meant an emphasis on the words of Christ as to try to convey my message. One of the reasons I believe that OSAS is so popular is because it doesnt put emphasis on our accountability in Christ...sadly inviting in the abuse of grace. Thanks for the chat my friend.
 

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Posted by Rogg (Member # 5394) on :
 
Being saved (Born Again) is very powerful experience, if you have not experienced it, then you are not saved.
And the big confusion is what Paul said, we are saved by grace through faith, but then faith without works is dead.
So if we have faith, then there are works.
But works without faith is dead also.
If we believe unto good works, then we will finish the race.
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Salvation is not an experience.

Salvation is a person,

Yeshua is Salvation.

Salvation can be in different experiences, for different people but Salvation always begins with brokenness before Yahweh as the individual sees his personal transgression of the Law of Yahweh and repentance begins in the heart.

This repentance never is truly complete until this body of corruption is put off and the believer puts on mortality.

The struggle between the two natures is always present after the New Birth takes place.

Yeshua said you have to choose, you can not serve two masters.

Before the New Birth there was no choice, Satan was the only choice.

The New Birth brings about that warfare the Apostle Paul is always talking about, it is the reason Yeshua spoke of taking up your cross daily.

Yeshua was tempted to come down off the cross….He was in all points tempted as we are tempted the scripture declare but never failed.

Matthew 27:40…. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

If He the Lord of Glory could be tempted to come off His cross, doesn’t the believer understand he too can be temped to quit carrying his/her cross?

The beginning and the end of Salvation is in Yeshua,

Hbr 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Anyone that receives eternal life will endure his/her personal cross (resisting sin in all forms) they are call to bear in this life.

Some have ears to hear some don’t; I pray all hear what the Spirit is saying.
 

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Posted by IAAFOTL (Member # 6414) on :
 
Good morning oneinChrist

I see what you are saying and amen. And a good example of His Words are these:
Luke 6:46-49
"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great."

quote:

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Originally posted by oneinchrist:
I agree IAAFOTL with your response. Maybe I should not have used the words "words printed in red" because not all bibles include the highlighted words of the Lord...I just meant an emphasis on the words of Christ as to try to convey my message. One of the reasons I believe that OSAS is so popular is because it doesnt put emphasis on our accountability in Christ...sadly inviting in the abuse of grace. Thanks for the chat my friend.

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quote:

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Exd 14:13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom you have seen to day, you shall see them again no more for ever.

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This "salvation" did not lead to entrance into Heaven nor did it lead to entrance into the promise land. It did, however, allow the people of God to continue on their journey toward what God had promised.

As far as I can tell this "salvation" served two purposes for God's people: 1) upon seeing the power of their captor (chariots and army) smashed and drowned the idea that THEY were still slaves ended; this freed their minds from thinking like slaves so they could begin to think like sons of God and 2) their fear of harassment by their captor ended for his strength and ability to enslave them was smashed before their eyes.

I also believe this is the symbol of water Baptism: we are buried with Christ and in the likeness of His death the ties we had with our original father, Adam, are legally cut (we go to a place the enemy cannot follow). When "dead" the enemy no longer has the legal right to enslave us with sinfulness and a sinful mind. We may continue on toward God's calling unabated by the enemy.

This salvation is not about entrance in to Heaven. It is about maturity in Christ our Lord.

Aaron
 

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Posted by IAAFOTL (Member # 6414) on :
 
Amen. Excellent post!

quote:

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Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Salvation is not an experience.

Salvation is a person,

Yeshua is Salvation.

Salvation can be in different experiences, for different people but Salvation always begins with brokenness before Yahweh as the individual sees his personal transgression of the Law of Yahweh and repentance begins in the heart.

This repentance never is truly complete until this body of corruption is put off and the believer puts on mortality.

The struggle between the two natures is always present after the New Birth takes place.

Yeshua said you have to choose, you can not serve two masters.

Before the New Birth there was no choice, Satan was the only choice.

The New Birth brings about that warfare the Apostle Paul is always talking about, it is the reason Yeshua spoke of taking up your cross daily.

Yeshua was tempted to come down off the cross….He was in all points tempted as we are tempted the scripture declare but never failed.

Matthew 27:40…. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

If He the Lord of Glory could be tempted to come off His cross, doesn’t the believer understand he too can be temped to quit carrying his/her cross?

The beginning and the end of Salvation is in Yeshua,

Hbr 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Anyone that receives eternal life will endure his/her personal cross (resisting sin in all forms) they are call to bear in this life.

Some have ears to hear some don’t; I pray all hear what the Spirit is saying.

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Posted by IAAFOTL (Member # 6414) on :
 
Hi Aaron. I like your avatar! I see it as symbolic of who we are in Christ.

Very interesting post

quote:

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Originally posted by Aaron:
We are talking about Salvation unto eternal life the consequence of this salvation is citizenship in Heaven. But, there are other salvations in the Bible. One is "salvation from the enemy's pursuit" as in Exodus 14:13.

quote:

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Exd 14:13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom you have seen to day, you shall see them again no more for ever.

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This "salvation" did not lead to entrance into Heaven nor did it lead to entrance into the promise land. It did, however, allow the people of God to continue on their journey toward what God had promised.

As far as I can tell this "salvation" served two purposes for God's people: 1) upon seeing the power of their captor (chariots and army) smashed and drowned the idea that THEY were still slaves ended; this freed their minds from thinking like slaves so they could begin to think like sons of God and 2) their fear of harassment by their captor ended for his strength and ability to enslave them was smashed before their eyes.

I also believe this is the symbol of water Baptism: we are buried with Christ and in the likeness of His death the ties we had with our original father, Adam, are legally cut (we go to a place the enemy cannot follow). When "dead" the enemy no longer has the legal right to enslave us with sinfulness and a sinful mind. We may continue on toward God's calling unabated by the enemy.

This salvation is not about entrance in to Heaven. It is about maturity in Christ our Lord.

Aaron

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Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Aaron, the enemy does not have legal right to enslave us with sinfulness and a sinful mind but the enemy has what rights you choose to surrender to him.

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Colossians 2:11-14 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

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1 Corinthians 10:1-5 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

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1Peter 3:20-22 "..when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

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Originally posted by Rogg:
I am talking about being saved, when you ask Jesus to come into your heart and open your eyes.
Being Born Again.
When you become a new creation in Christ Jesus, you know it immediately.
Your eyes are opened immediately, there is no doubting it, and it is a powerful, life changing experience.
If you don't know when you were born again, then you were not born again.
You know the minute you became a new creature in Christ.

Rog

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Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Born again is a word sometimes used so often that it is thought to be a new religion. I decided to look it up in the Wycliffe Bible Dictionary and the definition was quite elaborate. The definition included a section that was called "The tests of the new birth"..and it says.....
One reason men have sometimes ignored the doctrine of the new birth is that they have overlooked the fact it is set forth not only in John 3 but also in 1 John. In Johns epistle he goes into the matter of the new birth more fully, giving the marks or proofs whereby a man may know whether he has been born again. (1) Such a one does not practice sin (1 Jn 3:9; 5:18). (2) He has true christian love towards others (4:7, 20 cf. 3:14-15), particulary towards other christians (5:1. (3) He loves God and keeps His commandments (5:2-3). (4) He overcomes the world, that is, lives a victorious christian life (5:4-5). When these proofs are missing, either the person is only a nominal christian and not really saved, or he is a christian who is living a defeated, disobedient life. See New Birth; Regeneration.

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Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
I think once your saved, your saved. I also think that if pray a prayer and get some happy feelings, and act like a christian because you like the feelings, doesn't mean the neccessarily you did the whole believing in your heart part. I think when stuff gets tough and temptation hits and you fail. Thats when you need to examine yourself to see if you did both confessing with your mouth and believed in your heart, you then repent for that sin and try to not to again. Its not that because you sinned you lost your salvation, and its not because you repented from that sin you got your salvation, but its because you believed in your heart as well as confessed with your mouth.

If your feelings go, you get tempted, then fail and you do not repent and continue to sin. I really think you didn't do the whole believing in your heart part and weren't saved in the first place. The real salvation won't be found till you realize that you need to repent and change because its right, not because of good feelings then you've now believed in your heart.

This is something that everyone needs to examine in their own hearts for their own assurance of salvation. If your not examining yourself daily to make sure you have a repentant heart and truly believe, you might not have been saved in the first place because I believe the Holy Spirit is tugging at us constantly to evaluate ourselves.

Anyway I don't think the message should be telling everyone that if they prayed a prayer their saved and can forget about God. I also don't think putting the fear that if they get hit by a bus while lusting after the girl walking down the street, their going to hell is good either. I think the message should be that we always need to be testing ourselves against what the Bible says and what the Holy Spirit is telling use to make sure our hearts and minds are in the right place.

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
I think this issue can be taken to extreme on both sides. I was raised in the Assembly of God Church where we were taught you could lose our salvation.
As a kid and teenager we went up for salvation every year at Church camp and every revival. We were terrified that every bad word we said or every lie we told was going to make us lose our salvation.
I am now Baptist and sometimes they go the other extreme.
The Bible does say to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. I no longer believe you have to get saved every service, but we need to stay close to the source (the Holy Spirit) and guard our soul from attacks from the devil. Run from evil and don't invite it into your home or your life. Stay in the Word of God and pray every day.
I still don't know if you can lose your salvation, but why take a chance. If we want to have a relationship with God, we must communicate with God. It is so much better to live as close to God as possible and not be trying to see how much we can get away with and still be saved.
 

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Posted by BrianGrass1234 (Member # 5845) on :
 
In response to IAAFOTL:

I didn't see where those scriptures were in conflict with my post. Maybe you can point it out for me.

I also read the link you gave, although quickly, and although there are some scriptures that you could use to argue that the truly saved can loose their salvation, I think you could argue the other point of view with the same scripture as well.

I do have a question though, one of the verses sited in the link you gave, Hebrews 6:4-6, basically is saying, if you using to support that the saved can loose their salvation, that if your saved, and fall away, you can't get your salvation back. How long do we have then after we sin to ask for forgiveness? Or how many sins in a row qualifies us for falling away?


I really don't want to argue because I think its really not that important. Like I said the message needs to be self examination, not "I can sin all I want because I'm saved," and also not scarring young christians into being unproductive because with every bad thought their going to hell. I also think these lines of thinking drives a wedge. The anti OSAS crowd usually gets a sense of superiority over those backsliders and the gossip gets going. Then the OSAS crowd who is having a hard time, usually young christians, rebels against the legalism of the "you sinners have lost your salvation" crowd and fall further away and don't come to church anymore. So if they really weren't saved in the first place, they really aren't going to be saved now.
 

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Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
in response to Texas Grandma:
Hi, its nice to meet you. I read your post above and I am grateful for your good advice. I totally agree with the concept of "why take the chance?" that you brought up...its a reality check for all of us and it should keep us from harmful debate. Praise God.
 

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Posted by IAAFOTL (Member # 6414) on :
 
Dear Brian,

Thank you for taking the time to read it, and God bless you.

Although I don't agree with you that it isn't important I do agree that I don't want to argue about it, as that isn't going to help anyone and it isn't going to bring glory to God.

If you do want more Scriptures though, I can provide you with more to take a look at.

I think what is most important is that you do know that it isn't a light thing and that the cost to Jesus was high and so is the cost of obedience, as the flesh has to be put to death, as there is a war within us.

Paul is transparent with his struggle in Romans chapter 7, but he overcomes by the power of the Holy Spirit and masters his flesh and is walking after the spirit in chapter 8.


God bless you brother.


 

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Posted by IAAFOTL (Member # 6414) on :
 
amen

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Originally posted by oneinchrist:
in response to Texas Grandma:
Hi, its nice to meet you. I read your post above and I am grateful for your good advice. I totally agree with the concept of "why take the chance?" that you brought up...its a reality check for all of us and it should keep us from harmful debate. Praise God.

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Posted by IAAFOTL (Member # 6414) on :
 
Hi becauseHElives :-)

I think he was referring to the legal rights satan has over us before we are redeemed.

But Amen on the post!

Have a safe trip wherever you are going for the rest of the week!

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Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Aaron, the enemy does not have legal right to enslave us with sinfulness and a sinful mind but the enemy has what rights you choose to surrender to him.

Remember Yeshua not only spoke of the entrance (the straight gate) but He also spoke of the narrow path (complete trust in Him).

Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed me: Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite, and Joshua the son of Nun: for they have wholly followed the Lord. And the Lord’s anger was kindled against Israel, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the Lord, was consumed” (Numbers 32: 11,13; also Psalm 95: 8-11).

I don't have time to finish developing this I have to leave for the rest of the week...

i hope you can follow my thought...

see you all soon
Yahweh Bless
Dale

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Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Along the lines of what you were just saying in your post BecauseHeLives, I have often pondered this thought.....


If a person could be saved and then unsaved, wouldnt that be questioning Gods ability to make a righteous judgement? Like as if God became confused and changed His mind.

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If we fulfill the requirements for salvation, we will be saved, if we fulfill the requirements to loose our salvation, likewise.
But it is up to us, the Lord forces nobody to serve him.

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Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
I still don't know if you can lose your salvation, but why take a chance. If we want to have a relationship with God, we must communicate with God. It is so much better to live as close to God as possible and not be trying to see how much we can get away with and still be saved.

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Originally posted by David:
A person is not saved by just saying they are. The bible says they must be born-again. If one is born-again the bible tells you how you can tell. YES they will change more and more to be like Jesus Christ.

So the questions is, are you saved? Are you born-again. If you are you will will change and product the fruit of a person that is born-again. If you still live a worldly life and think just because you said a prayer or mouthed a few words but never come to know Jesus Christ - you were never born-again and are still in a lost condition.

So if you are truely saved and have been born again you will love the Lord Jesus Christ and you will act like it. There is no EASY BUTTON you can push to be saved. It is a life time commentment.

Listen to the message on this web page if you want to know the truth. To play a push button,Easy Believeism game with God is not how I would want to die and hope I might be saved. Get to know Jesus Christ and serve Him and you will not have to guess or hope. You MUST BE BORN AGAIN.

http://audiosermonindex.com/members/html/modules/mylinks/viewcat.php?op=&cid=67

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