Home / Christian Website Hosting / Christian Domain Names / Christian Search Engine
Rules, Policies, and Disclaimers

Christian Message Boards


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | register | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Christian Message Boards   » Bible Studies   » Exposing False Teaching   » once saved...always saved? (Page 2)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!  
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Author Topic: once saved...always saved?
AMH
Advanced Member
Member # 4895

Icon 1 posted      Profile for AMH     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If this is true then where is the real church?
Posts: 350 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738

Icon 1 posted      Profile for yahsway     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Mystery Babylon the Great (RCC) The Mother of

Harlots (Protestant denominations)

and of the Abominations of the Earth.

Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AMH
Advanced Member
Member # 4895

Icon 1 posted      Profile for AMH     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
RioLion,

You’re posting dated 8-12-05 10:01 PM seems to be painting the Roman Catholic Church and certain Protestant denominations together in a bad light.

Is it you’re position that the only churches that are to be condemned for being like the Roman Catholic are the ones that are not Calvinistic?

Is there no Roman doctrine that you would agree with?

If there is some Roman doctrine that you agree with does this make you cultic?

Actually the Roman Catholic Church and classical Calvinists have much in common don’t they?

Isn’t it true that the Calvinists sprang from Romanism thus the name Reformed Theology?

Wouldn’t it just be easier to say that the Roman Catholic Church is the mother church and that all the Protestant denominations are its daughters?

AMH

Posts: 350 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RioLion
unregistered


Icon 12 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Scripture seems to support the view that salvation or eternal life is a present possession and that those that are truly regenerated are sealed by the Holy Spirit indicating possession of God.(see Eph. 4:20, etc.)

It is interesting that those that believe one can lose his or her salvation are mostly from a Roman Catholic or cultic 'Christian' denomination.

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917

Icon 1 posted      Profile for WildB   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Rom.6

1. [23] For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


ETERNAL LIFE....are the key words.


Also if you are sealed by the HolySpirit how can you get unsealed.

John.6

1. [27] Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.


2Cor.1

1. [22] Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph.1

1. [13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph.4

1. [30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

--------------------
That is all.....

Posts: 8066 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
GodGiven
Advanced Member
Member # 4960

Icon 14 posted      Profile for GodGiven   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
There are alot of things that become opinion like in the beginning God made light.. In the beginning God made man.. those are all facts of the bible. You can't believe one verse and deny the verse in the next chapter. That's Luke Warm and luke warm will be spewed out of his mouth in the end times. Why do we discuss the hearts of man when Jesus said you'll them by their fruit, and all who abide in the vine abide in me and I in thee. That's what the word says so who is anyone to question the word, you believe all of the bible and all God says or you believe half of God? The bible says it clearing in John 3:16 he didn't say this doesn't apply to murders or rapist he just simply said what he said. Why debate the word of God? Why not accept what it says? And who is anyone that feels they have a right to judge a heart or a soul? If we concentrate on Jesus as much as we do others maybe we'd see more.
I think the bibles pretty clear.

--------------------
Forgetting the troubles of the world is to walk the gospel of Jesus.

Posts: 26 | From: Michigan | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

Icon 1 posted      Profile for becauseHElives   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
BA

Calvinism - A Blasphemous Heresy

ELECTION AND REPROBATION

By T.W. BRENTS (1874)
Ed
We now come to examine the subject of unconditional election and reprobation; and that we may see the doctrine in its purity, we beg permission, to quote again from the creed:

"By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestined unto everlasting life, and others for-ordained to everlasting death. These angels and men thus predestinated and for-ordained are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished. Those of mankind that are predestined unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions or causes moving him thereunto." Confession of Faith, chap. 3 secs. 3,4,5.



It is quite easy to see that the doctrine of unconditional election and reprobation is true if the doctrine of unchangeable for-ordination obtains as to every thing that comes to pass, unless we find relief in the more ample floods of Universalism. If God has unchangeably for-ordained whatsoever comes to pass, then of course He has for-ordained just who shall be saved, and who, if any, shall be lost; and if He has unchangeably fixed the destiny of every man before time began without any conditions whatever, then Calvinism or Universalism must be true. But we think we have seen that God did not so ordain everything, (see article on Predestination ) and hence this doctrine can not support either of the others. If either stands at all, it must be proved by other testimony. For the present, then, we propose to inquire whether or not God has unconditionally and unchangeably fixed the destiny of a definite number of two classes--- the elect and the reprobate.

And first, we remark that the words elect, elected, election, reprobate, and reprobates, are Biblical terms; hence there must be a Bible doctrine concerning them. Elect means to choose; hence the elect of God are God's chosen. God has elected persons, families, nations, and bodies or organizations in different ages of the world, for the benefit of his creatures, but the final salvation and happiness of the elected were by no means secured by their election. On the contrary, God's elect have to "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling." Phil. 2:12. Hence in very many instances they had sinned and fallen far from the favor of God, and often forfeited the positions to which they were elected. But to comprehend the whole subject we must inquire who were elected and for what purposes; then we may be able to see what effect, if any, their election had upon their final destiny.

" Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him; he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles; he shall not cry nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth." Isa. 42:1-3. That the servant of God here called his elect was Jesus the Christ may be seen by reference to Matt. 12:17-21., where this prophecy is quoted by Jesus as fulfilled in himself. Surely, it will be admitted that Jesus was not elected to secure His own salvation, but to be the Savior of men. "Wherefore also it is contained in Scripture, Behold I lay in Zion a chief corner-stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded." 1 Pet. 2:6. Here Jesus is represented as the elect corner-stone of the church, on whom others believe to their salvation. But we are more concerned in examining the election of men, as individuals, collective bodies, and nations.

Aaron and his sons were not only elected, but consecrated and anointed priests of God, and officiated in that most sacred office for themselves and the people. In the eighth chapter of Leviticus may be found an account of the grand and sublime ceremony with which they were inducted into that holy office. Thus the male portion of a family were elected and inducted into the priesthood; and what became of them? The Lord said: "Aaron shall be gathered unto his people, for he shall not enter into the land which I have given unto the children of Israel, because ye rebelled against my word at the water of Meribah. Take Aaron and Eleazar his son, and bring them up unto Mount Hor; and strip Aaron of his garments, and put them upon Eleazar his son, and Aaron shall be gathered unto his people, and shall die there." Num. 20:24-28. "Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the Lord, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the Lord and devoured them., and they died before the Lord." Lev. 10:1, 2. Now, if the doctrine of eternal unconditional election and reprobation be true, to which class did Nadab and Abihu belong? Did God elect them from the non-elect, or eternally reprobate, and anoint them priests to officiate in the tabernacle, having previously determined upon their destruction, and unchangeably for-ordained the wickedness for which He intended to kill them? Or were they of the eternally elect, and their interest in heaven made sure before "the foundation of the world," and God killed them for wickedness which He had unchangeably for-ordained they should do, that He might take then home to glory? Is it not more rational to conclude that God elected them, anointed and consecrated them priests, intending to be with and bless them as long as they were faithful to Him, and punish then when they forsook Him; and that their unhappy end was the result of their own voluntary rebellion against the law of the Lord?

God elected Saul to be the first king of Israel. He told Samuel how he might know him; and having presented him to the people, "Samuel said to all the people, See ye him whom the Lord hath chosen, that there is none like him among all the people? And all the people shouted and said, God save the king." 1 Sam. 10:24. He has not only elected him, but he gave him the spirit of prophecy, and when "a company of the priests met him, The Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them." 1 Sam. 10:10. Nor was this all, but he sacredly anointed him to reign over his people. "Then Samuel took a vial of oil, and poured it upon his head, and kissed him, and said, Is it not because the Lord hath anointed thee to be captain over his inheritance?" 1 Sam. 10:1. The Lord was with him and prospered him in battle, as long as he was faithful to Him, but when he disobeyed Him, Samuel said, "Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is an iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king." 1 Sam. 15:22, 23. " Will the reader observe the fact that he was rejected, not because God had eternally reprobated him, or unchangeably for-ordained his rejection, but because he rejected the word of the Lord. From these examples we learn that when God elected any one to any position however important, it did not unconditionally secure for him an entrance into the climes of endless bliss, or even a continuance in the office to which he was elected; but on the contrary the general principle is quite apparent that He blessed and prospered him as long as he continued faithful to His will, and failed not to punish and reject him when he rebelled against Him.

Brent gives lengthy examples of the election of nations, especially of Israel. He points out that the Church is directed to the example of Israel's failings and the warnings that these have for the Church.

Now, we would note the fact that the Jewish age was a typical age: the church in the wilderness was, in a sense, a type of the church of God; Moses, the Jewish lawgiver, was in a sense, a type of Christ our lawgiver.; Aaron, the Jewish high priest, was a type of Christ our High Priest; the Jewish priests were types of Christians in the gospel age who are priests now. --- Hence says Peter, "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." 1 Pet. 2:5. And again, verse 9, he says, "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people." Then if these elect types, from the least to the greatest, both as individuals and as one body, had to be faithful to God or forfeit their election, may we not in the same way forfeit our election? After telling us that "with many of them God was not well pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness," Paul says: " These things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." 1 Cor. 10:5-12. We know not how the apostle could have given more conclusive proof that the number of the elect composing the church of God at Corinth, was liable to be diminished by apostasy than is here given. He tells them of the overthrow of many of the Jews, and mentions, specifically, the sins for which thousands of them fell, and tells them that these things happened to them as examples, and are written for our admonition; "wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." But why this admonition, if the numbers of the elect and reprobate are so certain and definite that they can neither be increased nor diminished? Were this true, Paul's most solemn warning to his brethren was a mere "rawhead and bloody bones," to alarm them when there was no danger, for none of them could fall! And the creed is consistent with itself, if not with the Bible at this point; for it says:

"They whom God accepted in his Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from a state of grace;

but shall certainly persevere therein to the end and be saved.

This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election,

flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ;

the abiding of the Spirit and the seed of God within them; and the nature of the covenant of grace;

from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof." Chap. xvii, secs. 1, 2.

The doctrine here set out is a necessary outgrowth of the doctrine of unconditional election and reprobation. If God has unchangeably fixed the destiny of every man before time began, then it follows that such destiny can not be changed by any act of the creature-- nay, not even by the Creator; for that which is unchangeable can not be changed even by God himself. Therefore none of the eternally elect can fall if that doctrine obtains; and whenever it is clearly shown that a Christian may apostatize, and be lost, the whole theory of unconditional election and reprobation is exploded. We will therefore be somewhat careful to see how this is. And if there was not another sentence in the Bible touching the subject, Paul's most solemn warning to the Corinthians would be quite sufficient to settle the question forever. He tells them of the fall of the Jews as examples to his brethren, and that their deplorable end was recorded as a solemn admonition to others, lest they, feeling secure, might fall. What could be more conclusive? In the last verse of the preceding chapter, the apostle says, " I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." 1 Cor. 9:27. If Paul, the great apostle to the Gentiles, had to keep such constant watch-care over himself, lest, after all his labor, he could be lost, is it not possible that others may fall? It is not necessary to show that Paul was one of the elect, for this will surely be admitted: yet he was in danger of falling; and had he fallen, would not the number of the elect have been diminished thereby, and the number of the reprobate correspondingly increased?

Jesus said: "I am the vine, ye are the branches. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit; for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into fire, and they are burned." John 15:5, 6. Why charge them to abide in him, if they could not do otherwise than abide in him? and why liken them to withered and dry branches which men gather and cast into the fire to be burned, if by reason of the immutability of the decree of election they could not do otherwise than persevere to the end and be eternally saved?

Paul tells Timothy of "Hymeneus and Philetus; who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is passed already; and overthrow the faith of some." 2 Tim. 2:18. Here were persons who had faith, and that faith was overthrown by false teaching. Surely, these persons were of the elect, for the creed tells us that:

"The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts." Chap. xiv. sec. I.

Without stopping for the present to inquire how the elect, whose souls never could have been lost, can believe to the saving of their souls, we remark that faith is the work of the Spirit in the heart of the elect, according to the creed; hence Hymeneus and Philetus diminished the number of the elect just as many as there were persons whose faith they overthrew.

But we will hear what Paul has to say to the Hebrews, chap. 6:4-6. "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew then again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." Here it is most clearly taught that even those who had been blessed with those extraordinary spiritual manifestations peculiar to the age of the apostles, might fall away; else why the language, " If we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses; of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and have counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" Heb. 10:26-29. Here was a sorer punishment than death awaiting, under certain conditions, persons who had been sanctified by the blood of the covenant. Surely, these sanctified persons were of the elect, even according to the creed, for it says:

Sanctification is a work of God's grace, whereby they, whom God hath, before the foundation of the world, chosen to be holy, are, in time, through the powerful operation of his Spirit, applying the death and resurrection of Christ unto them, renewed in their whole man after the image of God." Larger Catechism, answer to Question 75.

Then Paul intended to teach that God's elect, after sanctification by the blood of the new covenant, might sin willfully and be worthy of sorer punishment than those who died without mercy under the law of Moses. But we will hear from Peter on the subject. He says: "If after they had escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, and they are again entangled therein and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them; but it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again, and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in in mire." 2 Pet. 2: 20-22. Here we find that persons who escaped the pollutions of the world may again be entangled in and overcome by them; and we are clearly told that if they are so overcome, then the latter end with them is worse than the beginning. Better for them not to have obeyed the gospel at all than to turn back into wickedness. As the sow that was washed may go back to wallowing in the mire, so may he who was cleansed from sin become worse than before.

Paul testified to such of his Galatian brethren as were circumcised, that "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." Gal. 5:4. Here, it seems to us, all controversy on the possibility of "falling from grace" should cease. We see no place for further argument on the subject; indeed, we know not how to make an argument on a passage like this. We have learned how to reason from premises to conclusions, but here there is no room for reason. When Paul most solemnly testifies that such as had turned back to the law and had been circumcised had "fallen from grace," it must simply be accepted as true, or the truth of the statement denied. Surely, these were once in grace--in favor with God--in Christ--for it would be the merest twaddle to talk about persons falling from positions which they never occupied. This being true, it follows that every person who thus falls diminishes the number of the elect and increases the number of the reprobate; hence the whole theory of unconditional election and reprobation is untrue.

But it is not only true that Christians, God's elect, may fall as individuals, but it is also true that congregations composing the "church of God" at certain places may fall. In proof of this position we would refer the reader to the several messages to the Asiatic churches. To the church at Ephesus, God said, "Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee; because thou hast left thy first love. remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." Rev. 2:4, 5. Certainly, this had reference to the removal of the church as a body.

To the church of the Laodiceans he said: "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot; I would that thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth." Rev. 3:15-17. Here is a church which God said he would spew out of his mouth, and after many epithets of reproach upon it he gives it such counsel as would enable it to reinstate itself in his favor by reformation and obedience. God said, " If the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do what is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have i any pleasure at all that the wicked shall die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All the righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them he shall die. Yet ye say, the way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel : is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth and turneth away from all his transgressions that he committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die." Ezek. 18: 21-28. This general principle characterizes all God's dealings with man in every age of the world.

We come now to consider the doctrine of eternal unconditional election and reprobation in its bearing on the subject of the atonement. If God, before the foundation of the world, unconditionally ordained just who and how many should be saved, and who and how many would be lost, then of course the atonement made by Christ could not reach those who were fore-ordained to dishonor and wrath, and therefore they could not have any interest in his death. Indeed it is difficult, according to the theory, to see the benefits of Christ's death at all; for the atonement could not make the salvation of the elect anymore secure, nor could it possibly change the condition or chances of the reprobate. Here again the creed is consistent with itself, as far as the reprobate is concerned, for it does not assume that the benefits of the atonement can in any way reach them; not because ant fault in them, but because Christ did not die for them. It says:

Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only."

Chap. 3, sec. 6.



Then, when it is shown that Christ died for all men, the doctrine of unconditional election and reprobation will have been again exploded. Paul says, "We see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man." Heb. 2:9. What can this mean? It can mean nothing less than that Christ died for every man. Surely, it would require elastic rules of interpretation to supply the word elect here, so as to make it read that " Jesus tasted death for every elect man." Before making this addition to the word of the Lord, let the reader consider well the following quotation: "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book." Rev. 22:18.

" For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life; for God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." John 3:16, 17. Here we find that the love of God extended to the world, and the object of sending His Son into the world was the salvation of the world. But here again we are asked to supply the word elect, so as to restrict the love of God to the elect. But the same apostle, in another place, supplies a word better calculated to give his use of the word world as connected with the atonement. He says, "He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2. Could language be more ample or comprehensive? and would anyone ever have thought of restricting its meaning to the whole "elect" world, had not the salvation of a theory required it? We know that the word world is sometimes used in a limited sense--that is, when it is intended to apply to a part, and not all the human race; but it applies in such cases to the wicked, as distinguished from the elect. A single example will abundantly show this. Jesus said to his disciples: "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love its own; but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." John 15:18, 19. In the quotation the word world occurs several times in a limited sense, but every time it refers to the wicked as distinguished from the elect. But the context itself utterly forbids any such restricted use of the term in John 3:16, 17. Let us examine it a little. The passage not only teaches that God loved the world, but also that the object of sending His Son into the world was that the world might not perish, but have everlasting life. Then if the love of God, and the world to whom He sent His Son, be confirmed to the elect world, it follows that whosoever of this elect world believes on Him may not perish; but others of the elect world may not believe on Him, and therefore perish. This view is quite prominent in the verse immediately following: "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18. That is, he, of this elect world that God loved, and to whom He sent His Son, that believeth not, is condemned already. This doctrine the advocates of the theory will not allow. And it will do no better to confine the word world to the Jews, reading it thus: God so loved the Jewish world that he sent his only begotten Son, " etc.: for that would exclude all others but Jews from the benefits of the atonement, even the makers of the creed themselves. Nor will it do to apply the word world here to the Roman Empire, for this would exclude all other nations, and thus come in direct conflict with the commission sending apostles to disciple all nations, and into all the world to preach to every creature. Then it must mean just what it says: "He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world." "Because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: and that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again." 2 Cor. 5:14, 15. Here the apostle clearly teaches that Christ died for all affected by the sin of Adam; hence the language: "If one died for all, then were all dead. " Then as "death passed upon all men" (Rom.5:12), even so Christ died for all men. "Therefore, as by the offense of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." Rom. 5:18. Without turning aside to offer exegesis of this verse, it is sufficient for our present purpose to call attention to the very obvious fact that, as Adam's sin affects all men, even so the benefits of Christ's death are offered to all men. To the same effect spake Jesus when He said: "I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die." John 12:32, 33. Surely, he did not expect all men to be drawn unto Him by His death unless all were interested in His death. What attraction could this death have for a reprobate, when he knew He died not for him, or any but the elect?

Again: Paul says, "there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." 1 Tim. 2:5, 6. Here, as usual, Paul is in contact with the theory which says substantially that Christ gave Himself a ransom for the elect only. "There is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave Himself a ransom for all." Wherefore He is able to save them to the uttermost that come to God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for those for whom he died; therefore he died to the uttermost that come to God by him. Surely, we can not be mistaken in this.

When the angel of the Lord announced the birth of Christ to the shepherds who watched their flocks in the plains of Judea, he, said, "Fear not: for, behold, I bring you glad tidings of great joy, which shall be to all the people." Luke 2:10. It occurs to us that the angel would have spoken more like the creed had he said, "Behold, I bring you glad tidings of great joy, which shall be to the elect." Surely, the announcement of Savior born could not have been glad tidings of great joy to those who were eternally reprobate, and therefore could not hope for an interest in His mission and death, or the atonement made by Him. Nor is it very easy to see how the news of His birth could have been glad tidings of great joy even to the elect, for He could not make their salvation any more secure than when it was made by the immutable decree of election. Peter did not so understand the subject, for he said, "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure." Then it was not already sure. But why strive to make it sure? "For if ye do these things, ye shall never fall." 2 Pet. 1:10. Then if they did not do these things they would fall, and make void their election; at least they would be liable to do so. Hence, as the announcement of His birth was glad tidings of great joy to all people, it is certain that Christ died for all people; and therefore all people may be saved through the atonement made by Him. It is certain that not all will be saved; but it will not be because the provisions of the atonement did not embrace them, but because they would not accept salvation as offered to them.

It is conceded by all parties that Christ died for the elect or saved; hence we propose next to show that He also died for such as have been or may be lost. Paul says: "But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died." Rom. 14:15. "And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died." 1 Cor. 8:11. These passages teach as clearly as language can teach anything that there were members of the church of God, both at Rome and at Corinth, for whom Christ died, who were liable to perish--be destroyed; hence Christ died as well for those who perish--be destroyed-- as much as He did for those who are saved. These passages show, too, that the disciples at Rome and Corinth were liable to fall away--perish--be destroyed; hence the admonition to those in charge of the weaker members to guard against such result. How can it be, then, that the destiny of every one was immutably fixed by the decree of election? But we will hear another Apostle on the same subject. Peter says: "But there were false prophets among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." 2 Pet. 2:1. Here were false teachers that denied the Lord that bought them, and thereby brought upon themselves swift destruction. How did the lord buy them? Paul admonished certain persons "to feed the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood." Acts 20:28. Then it was with the blood of Christ that He bought or purchased these false teacher who denied Him, and destroyed themselves. Before leaving this passage, we may note another fact which appears in it. These false teachers brought destruction upon themselves; and this they could not have done if they were eternally and unchangeably ordained dishonor and wrath by God's decree. The decree destroyed them, and no acts of theirs--if such a decree was made concerning them.

We next propose to show that salvation is attainable by all men, because the gospel of salvation is to be preached to all men. Jesus charged the apostles to "teach all nations, baptizing them." Matt. 27:19. And again: " Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." Mark 16:15. Why preach the gospel to every creature when the larger portion were not embraced in its provisions? It occurs to us that something like the following would have been more appropriate: "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to the elect., that they may know the ample provisions made for them before the foundation of the world; but to the reprobate say nothing, for as they can not by ant possibility avert the awful doom that surely awaits them, it is better to let them remain ignorant of their fate as long as possible." If this be true, we can see no use of all the labor and expense of printing Bibles, building meeting-houses, and preaching the gospel to either saint or sinner. If we are of the definite number elected and for-ordained to eternal life, there is no chance for us to be lost; and if not, we can not be saved. We have often heard this doctrine preached from the pulpit, when the sermon closed with an exhortation to sinners to come to the anxious seat to seek salvation or pray for pardon of sin. What a mockery! Why tell a man that God has unalterably fixed his destiny before time began, and then exhort him "flee from the wrath to come" and "lay hold on eternal life"--as though he could either change or confirm God's eternal and immutable decree! Surely, his efforts could do no good, nor could his negligence do any harm, for:

"Those of mankind that are predestined unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose,

and the secret counsel of his good pleasure of his will, has chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace of love,

without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them,

or any other thing in the creature, as conditions or causes moving him thereunto. " Conf., chap. iii, sec. 5.

Thus we see that faith, good works, nor any other thing, can avail, for the whole matter was unalterably fixed before time began. Salvation, upon certain conditions, was the great object of preaching the gospel to every creature; and among these conditions faith occupies a conspicuous place: "Faith commeth by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Rom. 10:17. Hence the necessity of preaching the gospel-- teaching the word of God to every creature, that he might have the privilege of believing and obeying it; therefore the promise: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Rom. 10:9. And, "He that believeth not on him is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18. The fact that Jesus required the gospel to be preached among all the nations, to every creature, promising salvation to those who would beleive and obey it., is evidence high as heaven that all may have salvation who will accept it on the conditions specified. Surely, God would not mock His creatures by preaching the gospel, and offering salvation to them on certain conditions, when He had eternally and unchangeably ordained that they should not be saved, and put it out of the reach of their power to comply with the terms offered. Nor is this all: He follows the promise of conditional salvation with the awful threat that " He that believeth not is condemned already." We can not see why anyone should be required to believe and trust in a Savior who did nothing for them, and believe and obey a gospel which made absolutely no provision to embrace them. Men are required to believe upon and trust in Jesus, in order to have salvation: " Many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: but these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God." And why believe this? "That believing ye might have life through his mane." John 20:30, 31. Jesus said, " He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36. Thus we see that man is denied eternal life, and subjected to the abiding wrath of God, not because of any eternal decree against him personally, but because of his unbelief; hence "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already." And why is he condemned already? Is it because of God's eternal decree against him? No; but "because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18.

Thus the justice of God is vindicated in the punishment of man. If he is not saved, it will not be because God eternally and unchangeably ordained his destruction; nor will it be because God willed not his salvation. Hear Him most solemnly deny such an imputation: "If the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die." All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him. In his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked shall die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways and live." Ezek. 18:21-23. "For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God; wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye." Ver. 32. And again: "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death if the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live.' Ezek. 33:11. This is either true or it is untrue. If God, from all eternity, fixed the destiny of all men, and ordained a definite number to life and a definite number to dishonor and wrath, and that according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy as He pleaseth" (Conf., chap. iii, sec. 7), then we see not how God has not pleasure in and wills not that which is according to the secret counsel and good pleasure of His own will. It requires greater skill than we possess to harmonize the Bible and the creed here. "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that anyone should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Pet. 3:9. How can this be true, if God fixed the destiny of each one in accordance with the unsearchable counsel of his will before time began? He who can, may explain.

Paul says: " I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings, and for all in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth." 1 Tim. 2:1-4. Here we learn that all men are the objects of prayer. And why? Because God wills the salvation of all men. Then if all are not saved, it will be because "ye will not come to me that ye might have life." John 5:40. Their own obdurate will is the great barrier to the salvation of men. When Jesus beheld the wickedness of the people of Jerusalem, and the consequent destruction that awaited them, he said: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" Matt. 23:37. Mark well the reason: "Ye would not!" Yes, the Son of God would gladly have saved them from the danger which threatened them, even as He would now save all who would come to God by Him; yet they would not -neither will ye. "The Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Rev. 22:17. Not whosoever was elected from all eternity, but whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Then whosoever perishes is lost because he will not partake of that which is freely offered to him. His unending wail may be, "God is just, though I am lost."

Jesus said, "The Son of man is come to seek and to save that which is lost." Luke 19:10. Was there ever a time when the elect were lost? If so, when? The creed tells us that they were predestined unto life before the foundation of the world was laid; hence, if they were ever lost, it must have been before that: therefore they could not have been the objects of Christ's mission, for these were lost when He came to earth as a man. Again He says: "They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I come not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Mark 2:17; Luke 5:31, 32. Were the eternally elect the sinners which Jesus came to call to repentance? Surely, they were not sick enough to invoke the aid of Jesus, the great Physician, for they were eternally and immutably ordained to eternal life; hence that were not sick--in any case, they could not have been sick to the point of spiritual death.

The Scriptures abound with testimony showing that men are not elect before conversion. A few passages of this class are all for which we have room in this work. In speaking to the Ephesians brethren, Paul tells us that they were "by nature the children of wrath, even as others." Eph. 2:3. If they had been elected to salvation before time began, we see not how, at any time, they could have been children of wrath, even as others not of the elect. Again: "Ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his." Rom. 8:9. All persons know that, prior to conversion, the Spirit of Christ was not in them, and hence, at the time, they are none of His; yet, according to the theory, they were always His. "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." Rom. 8:14. Then of course the converse is true, that as many as are not led by the Spirit of God are not the sons of God. All unconverted persons are led by the spirit of the wicked one., and not by the Spirit of God; therefore no unconverted man is a son of God. It will be conceded that the elect are sons of God; hence when not the sons of God, none are elect. "Know ye no your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates." 2 Cor. 13:5. Prior to conversion, Christ is in no one. Paul says, "I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you." Gal. 4:19. As Christ has to be formed in men, it follows that He was not always in them; and when He is not in them, they are reprobates: therefore none are elect until converted. "If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." 2 Cor. 5:17. If all the elect were "in Christ" before the foundation of the world, then conversion makes no man a new creature in Him; for if any person were "in Christ" at all, then they were always in Him. Paul says, "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." Rom. 16:7. If Paul and his kinsmen were in Christ from before the foundation of the world, then he made a most egregious blunder here. When has it, and how is it that they were in Christ before him? Once more: "They that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." Gal. 5:24. Then those that have not crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts are not Christ's. There was a time in the history of every man when he had not crucified the flesh with the affection and lusts, and therefore a time when he was not Christ's. All the elect are Christ's; therefore there was a time in the life of every man when he was not one of the elect: hence none are personally and unconditionally elected to eternal life from before the foundation of the world.

Speaking of his brethren in the Lord, Peter said: "Ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of the darkness into his marvelous light: which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God; which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." 1 Pet. 2:9, 10. Here, again, we know not how to make an argument. This passage is so manifestly opposed to the whole theory of eternal and unconditional election and reprobation that there is no room to reason about it. These were a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; hence they were God's elect beyond controversy: yet in time past they were not a people, but then were the people of God. Do you say these were Gentiles? Suppose they were: what relief does this bring to the theory? It only shows the more clearly that once they were not God's people; yet when the apostle wrote, they were God's people--yes, verily, they were His peculiar people. Were they elected in Christ before the foundation of the world? Then we would gladly like to know at what time in the past it was at which they were not the people of God. Once they had not obtained mercy. When was this? Elected to eternal life before the foundation of the world, out of God's mere free grace and love, and yet had not obtained mercy!!!

But if the doctrine already quoted from the Confession is true--that before the foundation of the world was laid, according an eternal and immutable purpose, without any foresight of faith or good works, or anything else in man, God unconditionally elected some men and angels to eternal life, and at the same time for-ordained the residue to dishonor and eternal wrath--then we know not how to avoid the conclusion that He is a respecter of persons. Against this imputation upon the character of our Heavenly Father, at least two inspired pens have given testimony. Paul said, "There is no respect of persons with God." Rom. 2:11. Again: "He that doeth wrong, shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons." Col. 3:25. Once more: "And ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him." Eph. 6:9. It is probable that Peter once had similar thoughts upon this subject to those of Calvinists now. Certain it is that he thought the privileges and blessings of the gospel were confined to the Jews, and it required nothing less than a miracle to convince him of his error; but when convinced, he at once replied: "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons." Acts 10:34. From that time he gladly taught the gospel to those previously regarded unworthy of its privileges. Finally, let us examine the subject of a general judgment through Calvinistic glasses.

" the times of ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent: because he hath appointed a day in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained." Acts 17:30, 31. But why appoint a day of judgment in which judge the world, if the numbers of the elect and reprobate were made certain and definite beyond increase or diminution before time began? Surely, the line of separation was drawn deep and wide between them by the immutable decree which assigned each one his position long in advance of his being. But God will judge the world in righteousness; therefore his judgment will be in accordance with the principles of justice: "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." 2 Cor. 5:10. John says: 'And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." Rev. 20:12, 13. Why judge a man according to his works, when everything he did was specifically ordained and put out of his control before time began? Why not judge him, if at all, according to the eternal decree which immutably fixed his destiny? From such a standpoint as Calvinism, the whole theory of future judgment seems to us a most sublimely ridiculous farce.

That the decree of election, and not the things done in the body, is the rule of law by which Calvinism proposes to judge the world, is further shown by the fact that reprobate infants that die in infancy are consigned to eternal misery for no other reason than they were not of the elect. (Editors note: Most modern Calvinists are ashamed of the logical conclusions of their fatalistic theology and now usually make infants automatically part of the elect. This they do however, without any Biblical warrant, and against the historical Calvinistic statements on the subject. They cannot possibly know who is elect, to include children, or even themselves, since according to the theory, those who are elected are chosen "without any foresight of faith or good works or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature," which excludes any consideration that they are children, and makes the destiny of each individual a mystery known only to God before all eternity.) On page 64, chap. x, sec. 3, the creed says: "Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit, who worketh when and where and how he pleaseth. So also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the word." Yes, elect infants are saved by Christ; but what of the non-elect? "Others not elected, though they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come to Christ, and therefore can not be saved." The words "elect infants" clearly implies that there are non-elect infants. The above quotation that elect infants dying in infancy are saved; and of course, the non-elect infants dying in infancy, or in living to adult age, cannot be saved, as Christ never died for them, or any but the elect. Though you may consign your infant to the tomb while so young that it never could have had a wicked thought or done a wicked act, yet you have no assurance of its ever being raised in the image of Christ, for the reason you cannot tell whether it is, or is not, one of the elect. No, you cannot tell whether its little tongue will be employed in praising God, or in fruitless cries and bitter wailings in the eternal pit of despair, for no fault of its own, or anyone else, but simply because God unchangeably decreed it that horrible fate. Calvinism has no escape from this difficulty. The numbers of the elect and reprobate having been made certain and definite before time began, it follows that he who is reprobate--at all, was so at birth; Hence those who die in that condition are hopelessly lost. There is no remedy that can reach such cases. Therefore, Calvinists who are not prepared for such results should abandon a theory which necessarily produces them.

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47

Icon 15 posted      Profile for Miguel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
They whom God hath accepted in His beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ, the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptation of Satan and the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall in grievous sin; AND FOR A TIME continue therein. Where by they incur Gods displeseaure and grieve His Holy Spirit and come to be deprive in some measure of their graces and comforts. You and I we both know that we go through this in our lives here on this earth!

Quote
“Peter (I Peter 1:3-5)
Peter’s words in the doxology at the opening of his first epistle are astonishingly clear:
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
The text claims that genuine believers have been given new birth into two things: a living hope and an inheritance. That inheritance is described, as being an inheritance that is imperishable, preserved or guarded in heaven for the believer. Here, the inheritance of salvation is out of the hands of the believer. Salvation belongs to God, and the inheritance we have been promised is preserved in heaven.”

It is not, It will not and be not the license to sin that many may say we or I have.


Critics of Perseverance of the Saints believe that Perseverance of the Saints will cause the body of Christ to become filled with carnality because Perseverance of the Saints teaches “free grace.” Perseverance of the Saints does not teach free grace, that is, that a person can ask for forgiveness and then live however he or she wants! People think that Perseverance of the Saints doesn’t care about sanctification but only justification. This couldn’t be further from the truth! Perseverance of the Saints teaches that those who are saved will indeed be conformed to the holy image of Christ. When a person becomes a genuine Christian we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God who grieves within us at our sin.
The Holy Spirit gives the newly created Christian a new heart and a desire to seek holiness. Perseverance of the Saints affirms that a newly converted person will truly desire nothing more than obedience to Christ. Holiness and hatred of sin will be a natural desire. If a person “gets saved” and then remains in unrepentant carnality then this person was possibly never saved in the first place. True conversion means that the body of Christ will be filled with those who love holiness. Perseverance of the Saints teaches that works are necessary, not to save, but to prove your salvation. James 2 is the key teaching of this truth. James 2 is preceded by verses like James 1:22 that says, “But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.”
James 2:18 says, “But someone might well say, ‘You have faith, and I have works’; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” James 2 concludes by saying that faith without works is not a saving faith because it is dead! 1 John 1:6 says that if we claim to have fellowship with Him and remain in darkness, we are liars! 1 John 3:9 states the strongest, "No one who is born of God practices sin, because God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot practice sin because he is born of God."
Clearly, if a person is a false convert, soon or later they will be uncovered. If a person becomes a Christian then they will willingly submit to the Lord. Perseverance of the Saints does not in any form or fashion teach “free grace.” Perseverance of the Saints does teach that when a genuine believer sins, even critically, they still remain in the grace of God because of the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ and the wonderful power of His precious blood. There is another important note: if a person, who claims to be a Christian, uses Christ’s perfect atonement to gain sin, then that person is probably not saved.

The fearful apostasy is upon us, and it is going to get worse. Someday Satan's demons are going to flourish in the world and false teachers are going to be even worse than they are now, propagating "damnable heresies" (2 Pet. 2:1). The churches are going to be loaded with apostates denying the truth. Therefore, we need to contend for the faith, as Jude said in verse 3. There is no use fearing, for we are the called, the beloved, the kept, and the blessed. When the day comes that we all go to meet with Jesus Christ, every true believer will be there, because of "Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy" (v. 3). Not only are we going to get to heaven, but guess who is going to be happy when we arrive? God Himself! So we have nothing to fear, and yet that is not an excuse for sin. The outpouring of God's loving, grateful heart ought to be the reason for our holiness. For One who would do all that He did for you, deserves all that you can give to Him.


Good night, we meet again in few month times for I will be in isolation with God.

--------------------
Romans 9:11-24

Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!

Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AMH
Advanced Member
Member # 4895

Icon 1 posted      Profile for AMH     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Miguel,

The perseverance of the saints is given as security for the believer?

But if the saint(s) do not persevere then they have no security. Isn’t this what is being said? I mean, you are only allowing security for perseverance, so that the security that you are speaking of has to be earned by persevering. And if the saint(s) do not persevere then the Perseverance crowd says that they probably were never believers to begin with. Yes- Calvin did say something about that also. He said that a person can be deceived into believing that they are saved when God never really saved them. There goes a good deal of false security right down the OSAS drain.

OSAS does not give true security to anyone because you can’t live in sin and enter in through the gate that is called straight. If you could then why would you ever have to persevere? If you are saved OSAS style, you have no more cares or worries, you don’t even have to pray because you are saved and cannot be lost. Just like Samson you will always be able to go out as before and defeat the Philistines. I must agree that if true OSAS would be very exhilarating, sort of like the feeling a person would get while lying on Delilah’s lap.

AMH

Posts: 350 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

Icon 1 posted      Profile for becauseHElives   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Miguel, you and a lot of others need to read to scriptures in context and quite picking and chosing the ones that fit your perverted doctrine.

read Jude slowly and carefully


1 ¶ Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.

.3 ¶ Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

.4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness (teachers of Once Saved Always Saved), and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

.6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

.7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.



.8 ¶ Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
.9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. (Word of Faith bunch, Joel Osteen, Rick Warren, Paul Crouch, Kim Clemment, .... and anyone that does not speak out against them)

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. (unless they repent)

.14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 ¶ To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.


20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
.24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47

Icon 15 posted      Profile for Miguel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
2 Corinthians 4:13. We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak. Ephesians 1:17-19. That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power.
Ephesians 2:8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

It is the work of the Holy Spirit that we been dead in sin may have faith to the work of salvation, for this faith is the Lord Jesus Christ for He is the FAITHFUL ONE and when God looks at a sinner like you and me He does not look at our faith but the faithfulness of the CHRIST… what payment do you have to give God for your rotten sins!

Galatians 2:20. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Hebrews 6:11-12. And we desire that every one of you do show the same dilligence, to the full assurance of hope unto the end; that ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. Hebrews 10:22. Let us draw near with a true heart, in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water

If Jesus Christ is The Author and Finisher of Our Faith, where do ye stand in having faith to save thy self?

Hebrews 12:2. Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.

If it is true that faith is a gift of God and that sanctification is an act of God’s grace, then should a genuine believer not persevere in the faith, God must have either taken back the faith He gave to the believer or failed in His attempt to sanctify the believer. There are many passages that demonstrate God’s ability and commitment to preserve the faith of the believer and sanctify him during his earthly life. For instance, Paul in Philippians states his confidence that “he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus” (1:6). The work of sanctification is God’s work, and He promises to finish the work that He begins when He saves people.

In much the same manner as in Paul’s letter to the Philippians, Paul encouraged the Thessalonians in 2 Thess. 3:3-4, “But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen and protect you from the evil one. We have confidence in the Lord that you are doing and will continue to do the things we command.” Paul had much confidence that the Thessalonian church would persevere in the faith. Yet this confidence was not in the Thessalonian church. His confidence was “in the Lord” because He is the one who “is faithful.” The preservation of the saints is grounded in the very character of God himself, who is faithful to protect His children so that they will persevere.

Some of the strongest statements to this effect occur in John’s first epistle. In 1 John 3:9, he writes, “No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.” Later on, he writes “We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him” (1 John 5:18). It is questionable whether the NIV should have translated the present tense verbs here with such continual force, but it may be fitting to the theological problem John was addressing. John here is emphatically claiming that no regenerated Christian sins (or continues to sin). The fact that this Christian was regenerated prevents him from sinning; God does protect him from the evil one. Understanding the situation of this epistle discussed earlier will prevent one from thinking that God prevents Christians from sinning at all; rather, God will protect His children from falling into the kind of heretical beliefs and practices adopted by John’s adversaries.

Ultimately, Berkhof is right to say that, because of our union with Christ and because of His continual mediatorial work, God will not fail to save those whom He effectually calls. In Heb. 7:25, the author claims, “Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.” Christ’s intercessory work on our behalf guarantees our salvation—so much so that if it is possible for genuine believers to not ultimately be saved, then Christ has failed to provide intercession for us. So, Paul can approach death without any shame and with complete confidence, not because of His own effort, but because He “knew in whom [He] believed” (2 Tim. 1:12). No matter what evil may await him, he can boast, “The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom” (4:18).

Objections

Many in the New Testament Have Lost Their Faith (2 Timothy)
Perhaps the most notable objection to the doctrine of perseverance is to bring up the numerous people mentioned in Paul’s letters to Timothy who were said to have lost their faith or destroyed the faith of others. Paul said that Hymenaeus and Alexander “shipwrecked their faith” (1 Tim. 1:18-20). In Paul’s next epistle, Paul mentioned that Hymenaeus along with Philetus “wandered away from the truth” by teaching a heretical view on the resurrection which “destroy[ed] the faith of some” (2 Tim. 2:17). Alexander opposed Paul’s message and thus did Paul a great deal of harm (2 Tim. 4:14-15). Demas deserted Paul because he “loved the world” (2 Tim. 4:10).

In response, it must be noted again that many people have made professions of faith who are not genuine believers. Such is clear in the New Testament as well as in experience. It may well be that these individuals who turned from the Christian gospel to heretical teachings never truly had a genuine faith. It could be that their faith was largely superficial, and therefore they were easily seduced by heretical teachings (see the parable of “the sower and the seed” for a confirming example of this). In fact, in 1 John 2:19, quoted earlier, John states that if they were genuine believers, they would not have left the faith.

Salvation is Conditioned upon Perseverance (Col. 1:22-23; Heb. 3:14)

Near the opening of his letter to the Colossians, Paul writes that Christians have been reconciled by Christ’s physical body through death for the purpose of presenting them holy in God’s sight. However, he provided one condition—“if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.” A similar emphasis can be seen in Hebrews 3:14. “We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

Some claim that these verses assume that some may not continue in their faith, and therefore they will lose their salvation. However, it must be admitted that Paul and the author of Hebrews are addressing churches, and some of the members of those churches may only profess faith; they may not yet possess genuine faith. Certainly some of those may fall away from their profession. At the same time, it must also be stated that for genuine believers, there is no conflict here with Reformed theology. All the elect will by God’s grace continue in their faith, and as a result, they will be presented before God “without blemish and free from accusation.” It is only those who persevere that are genuinely saved.

Christ Will Remove Lampstands (Rev. 2:4-6)

In Revelation 2, John recorded Christ’s words as He addressed the church in Ephesus. Jesus had a scathing rebuke for them. They had lost their “first love.” If they refused to repent, Jesus says, “I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.” Some may infer from this that people in the church of Ephesus were once believers and lost their faith. If they refuse to repent, their salvation will be lost. However, it must be recognized that Jesus is speaking to the church as a whole, not to individuals in it, and the “lampstand” represents the church of Ephesus, not individuals (Rev. 1:20). On a corporate level, a church may be judged. However, there’s no reason to believe that individual believers in that church to have lost their salvation. When Israel was exiled to Babylon as a corporate judgment, believers were exiled along with nonbelievers. Likewise, when a church “lampstand” is removed, individual believers will find fellowship elsewhere or plant another church.

Leads to Immorality

Berkhof has noted that some object to the doctrine of perseverance believing that such a doctrine would only increase one’s license for sin. However, a proper understanding of the gospel message should indicate otherwise. In fact, hidden within this objection appears to be a desire to coerce moral behavior out of the threat or fear of punishment. It is assumed that if one believes and thus fears that he may lose his salvation if he becomes too disobedient, he will make a stronger effort to live morally. Should one take away the threat of eternal damnation, he has taken away any reason to be moral. Yet not only does this kind of objection fail to understand the true nature of regeneration, but it also inevitably resorts to the lowest sort of moralism that Paul abhorred. This kind of objection betrays an incentive towards righteous behavior based on fear and coercion; Christians must conform to the law, and if they fail too terribly, they will be damned.

Paul, on the other hand, unequivocally affirms that “there is no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 8:1). The motivation of fear and law do nothing to increase righteous behavior (Col. 2:23). In fact, they only increase one’s desire to sin (Rom. 5:20; Rom. 7:7-8; Gal. 3:19). The law is powerless to generate obedience in the believer; the believer is therefore regenerated by the Spirit to keep the law, not out of fear of condemnation, but out of a renewed desire to display gratitude to His Savior (Rom. 8:3-4), “stirring up the grace of God that is in them.” The law does function positively therefore as a “rule of life” precisely because the threat of condemnation has been taken away.

The fact is that a justified believer is free from fear of eternal punishment for disobeying God’s commands (Rom. 6:14; 1 John 4:18). He has already been declared righteous by virtue of Christ’s obedience. In fact, it is God’s kindness that leads us to repentance (Rom. 2:4), and the reality of our forgiveness and assurance of salvation is a far more powerful motivator than fear. Berkhof writes, “It is hard to see how a doctrine which assures the believer of a perseverance in holiness can be an incentive for sin. It would seem that the certainty of success in the active striving for sanctification would be the best possible stimulus to even greater exertion.”

At the same time, there is a Biblical fear that a Christian may undergo. Times of persistent sin in our lives may cause us to question whether or not we are in fact saved. A genuine believer never needs to fear losing his salvation or falling under God’s judgment, but all professing believers are called to, with fear and trembling, work out their salvation (Phil. 2:12-13). There is the possibility that believers might have false confidence in their salvation.

Assurance of Salvation

Peter encouraged his readers at the beginning of his second epistle to “be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” The author of Hebrews also writes, “We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure” (Heb. 6:11). These commands assume that it is possible for one’s calling, election and hope to be at one time unsure, and it gives professing believers hope that they can be made sure. It presupposes that it is possible for one who is elect to become assured that he in fact is elect. Many do profess Christian faith and have a false assurance of their salvation. In time, these will fall away from the faith. Theoretically, this could happen to any professing Christian. However, it is not necessary therefore to abandon all hope of gaining assurance of salvation. This assurance may not come immediately, but with prayer and the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit, it may be obtained (see Heb. 3:14; 10:22)

John’s first epistle reveals the apostle’s desire that genuine believers become assured of their salvation. As has been discussed earlier, John in this epistle was refuting the teachings of false teachers who had left the church (probably in Ephesus) and were trying to deceive those who remained (1 John 2:19, 26; 3:7). John’s actual readers were the faithful who had not been taken captive by this false teaching; instead, John’s readers had overcome them (1 John 2:12-14, 20-21, 27; 4:4). John wrote to the faithful members of the church to give them assurance of their salvation—“that you might know that you have eternal life” (1 John 5:13). John knew beforehand that his readers were faithful to the Biblical gospel, and he sought to provide them with both an assurance of their salvation and the theological tools to oppose the false teachers. In fact, John had no real need to teach them; they already had all the knowledge they needed. However, the wake of a church split caused by false teachings can leave many in emotional and psychological turmoil. John’s letter gave them the comfort and confidence they needed to set their hearts at rest in His presence (1 John 3:19).

At the same time, persistent unrepentant sin may cause one to rightly question his own salvation. His assurance of his own salvation may waver. Paul warns the Corinthian church, “Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?” (2 Cor. 13:5) It is necessary for the believer to undergo self-examination; this self examination is a part of dying to the self, as pat of the sanctification process.


The perseverance of the saints is one doctrine that, while is often maligned in the church, is precious to those who embrace it. To a Christian, the knowledge that salvation cannot be lost is a great comfort. To know, beyond this truth, that God will preserve him and will continue to sanctify him throughout his earthly life is an exhilarating joy. Christians can and do certainly fall in to grievous sins, and may continue in them for a time. Yet even when Christians undergo God’s discipline for these sins, there is comfort and joy in knowing that this discipline is for the benefit and sanctification of the believer. Never again need the Christian fear God’s eternal wrath and condemnation, and this freedom motivates continued obedience by God’s Holy Spirit.

--------------------
Romans 9:11-24

Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!

Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

Icon 15 posted      Profile for becauseHElives   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Let it be known this is not adressed to any one that holds to SEcurity for those who walk after the things of Yahweh!

Terrriebear

you have an honest heart,

I can tell you no one could convince me either way

whether they are saved or not is in the Lord's Hands

But the Apostle Paul would urge you to continue challenging them, to get you to ask them to examine themselves and see if they are in the faith, Hell is no laughing matter

If they are not living the life outlined by the Lord Jesus that a believer would live,

where do these idiots that propose Once Saved Always Saved get the gall to tell someone that is living like the Devil, with no fruit, that they are going to Heaven

If they were my children I would be praying for them, and witnessing to them as to what the scripture say about as to how a true child of Yahweh will live

1-EXAMINE YOURSELVES

The Scriptures tell each person to examine themselves. Test themselves to see if they are really in the faith.

It is written, 2 Cor 13:5-EXAMINE YOURSELVES, WHETHER YE BE IN THE FAITH; PROVE YOUR OWN SELVES. KNOW YE NOT YOUR OWN SELVES, HOW THAT JESUS CHRIST IS IN YOU, EXCEPT YE BE REPROBATES?

2-THEY SOUGHT SALVATION BY WORKS, BUT NOT BY FAITH

Because they sought salvation but not through faith, they perish. There is only one way. It is through faith in Jesus Christ.

Ro 9:32-BECAUSE THEY SOUGHT IT NOT BY FAITH…THEY STUMBLED AT THAT STUMBLING-STONE (which is Jesus).

3-SHALL THEIR UNBELIEF MAKE GOD’S WORD OF NO EFFECT?

Many people do not believe the Bible. They do not believe in the Jesus of the Bible.

It is written, Ro 3:3-FOR WHAT IF SOME DID NOT BELIEVE? SHALL THEIR UNBELIEF MAKE THE FAITH OF GOD WITHOUT EFFECT?

4-FAITH IS PRECIOUS AND HOLY

In 2 Pet 1:1, we see the words-PRECIOUS FAITH; and in Jude 20-MOST HOLY FAITH. As God’s Word tells us, our faith is to be centered on Jesus Christ, God’s only begotten Son. True faith is very precious and most holy.

5-THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH

The born-again Christian is to live and walk by faith. As a person’s faith grows, their understanding and reliance on Jesus should grow. More and more and ever increasing, the new Christian should live and walk by faith.

2 Cor 5:7-FOR WE WALK BY FAITH, NOT BY SIGHT.
Gal 3:11-THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.
Heb 10:38-tells us, NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.
Ro 1:17-AS IT IS WRITTEN, THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.

6-WHATSOEVER IS NOT OF FAITH IS SIN

It is not possible to please God without faith. In addition, whatsoever we do that is not of faith is sin.

It is written, Heb 11:6-BUT WITHOUT FAITH IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE HIM.

Ro 14:23-FOR WHATSOEVER IS NOT OF FAITH IS SIN.

7-FAITH PROMPTS US TO SERVE GOD

All of God’s people are called to serve Him. We are told in Eph 2:10-FOR WE ARE HIS WORKMANSHIP, Christ’s workmanship, CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS UNTO GOOD WORKS, WHICH GOD HATH BEFORE ORDAINED THAT WE SHOULD WALK IN THEM.

So what prompts us to work for Jesus? It is our faith. If a person will not serve Jesus, it is good evidence they have little or no faith. If they are fully committed to serving Jesus and are able to endure much hardships, it can be an indication of much faith.

As Phili 2:17 tells us-the SERVICE OF YOUR FAITH; and 1 Thes 1:3-YOUR WORK OF FAITH, or (NIV) WORK PRODUCED BY FAITH, YOUR LABOR PROMPTED BY LOVE, AND YOUR ENDURANCE INSPIRED BY HOPE IN OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.

2 Thes 1:11-THE WORK OF FAITH (or act prompted by your faith-NIV).

2 Cor 4:13-WE HAVING THE SAME SPIRIT OF FAITH, ACCORDING AS IT IS WRITTEN, I BELIEVED, AND THEREFORE HAVE I SPOKEN; WE ALSO BELIEVE, AND THEREFORE SPEAK.

Let us not forget that the evidence of salvation is "fruit"-ref Mt 7:20.

8-THE EVIDENCE OF FAITH

Paul wanted to know the people’s faith.
Here are given four evidences of a right attitude, which should come forth from faith.

1Thes 3:6-BUT NOW WHEN TIMOTHEUS CAME FROM YOU UNTO US, AND BROUGHT US GOOD TIDINGS OF YOUR

A-FAITH AND

B-CHARITY (or love),

C-AND THAT YE HAVE GOOD REMEMBRANCE OF US ALWAYS,

D-DESIRING GREATLY TO SEE US, AS WE ALSO TO SEE YOU.

9-SEEING THEIR FAITH

The Scriptures show us that faith can be seen and perceived.

Mt 9:2-AND, BEHOLD, THEY BROUGHT TO HIM A MAN SICK OF THE PALSY, LYING ON A BED: AND JESUS SEEING THEIR FAITH SAID UNTO THE SICK OF THE PALSY; SON, BE OF GOOD CHEER; THY SINS BE FORGIVEN THEE.

Mk 2:5-WHEN JESUS SAW THEIR FAITH, HE SAID UNTO THE SICK OF THE PALSY, SON, THY SINS BE FORGIVEN THEE.

Lk 5:20-AND WHEN HE SAW THEIR FAITH, HE SAID UNTO HIM, MAN, THY SINS ARE FORGIVEN THEE.

Acts 14:9-THE SAME HEARD PAUL SPEAK: WHO STEDFASTLY BEHOLDING HIM, AND PERCEIVING THAT HE HAD FAITH TO BE HEALED.

10-EVERY PERSON A MEASURE OF FAITH

God gives to every person a measure of faith.

Ro 12:3-FOR I SAY, THROUGH THE GRACE GIVEN UNTO ME, TO EVERY MAN THAT IS AMONG YOU, NOT TO THINK OF HIMSELF MORE HIGHLY THAN HE OUGHT TO THINK; BUT TO THINK SOBERLY, ACCORDING AS GOD HATH DEALT TO EVERY MAN THE MEASURE OF FAITH.

Ro 12:6-HAVING THEN GIFTS DIFFERING ACCORDING TO THE GRACE THAT IS GIVEN TO US, WHETHER PROPHECY, LET US PROPHESY ACCORDING TO THE PROPORTION OF FAITH.

It may be said, when combining all the Scriptures on "faith," that it is of God and depends solely on the initial moving of God. It involves the Divine influence upon an individual’s heart and then the individual’s response to receive God’s Word into his heart by faith.

11-LOVE WITH FAITH

Over and over, the Scriptures combine faith and love together. Love is so important that no matter how much faith a person has, if he does not have love, he is nothing. No matter how much faith a person has, if they do not love God and their brothers in Christ, they are not saved.

The Scriptures convey to us that God’s children are to also love their enemies. Love is so important that the Scriptures tell us that faith works by love.

Gal 5:6-FOR IN JESUS CHRIST NEITHER CIRCUMCISION AVAILETH ANY THING, NOR UNCIRCUMCISION; BUT FAITH WHICH WORKETH BY LOVE.

The person that does not have love is nothing. It is written, 1 Cor 13:2-AND THOUGH I HAVE THE GIFT OF PROPHECY, AND UNDERSTAND ALL MYSTERIES, AND ALL KNOWLEDGE; AND THOUGH I HAVE ALL FAITH, SO THAT I COULD REMOVE MOUNTAINS, AND HAVE NOT CHARITY (or love), I AM NOTHING.

Note how the following verses combine love and faith in various ways.

Col 1:4-SINCE WE HEARD OF YOUR FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS, AND OF THE LOVE WHICH YE

HAVE TO ALL THE SAINTS.

Eph 1:15-WHEREFORE I ALSO, AFTER I HEARD OF YOUR FAITH IN THE LORD JESUS, AND LOVE UNTO ALL THE SAINTS.

Eph 3:17-THAT CHRIST MAY DWELL IN YOUR HEARTS BY FAITH; THAT YE, BEING ROOTED AND GROUNDED IN LOVE.

Eph 6:23-PEACE BE TO THE BRETHREN, AND LOVE WITH FAITH, FROM GOD THE FATHER AND THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.

Phile 1:5-HEARING OF THY LOVE AND FAITH, WHICH THOU HAST TOWARD THE LORD JESUS, AND TOWARD ALL SAINTS.

1Thes 5:8-BUT LET US, WHO ARE OF THE DAY, BE SOBER, PUTTING ON THE BREASTPLATE OF FAITH AND LOVE; AND FOR AN HELMET, THE HOPE OF SALVATION.

1 Tim 1:14-AND THE GRACE OF OUR LORD WAS EXCEEDING ABUNDANT WITH FAITH AND LOVE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS.

Titus 3:15-ALL THAT ARE WITH ME SALUTE THEE. GREET THEM THAT LOVE US IN THE FAITH.

12-REPENTANCE AND FAITH 13-OBEDIENCE 13-OBEDIENCE

The Scriptures also connect repentance and faith together.

Acts 20:21-TESTIFYING BOTH TO THE JEWS, AND ALSO TO THE GREEKS, REPENTANCE TOWARD GOD, AND FAITH TOWARD OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.

13-OBEDIENCE

Obedience is a result or product of faith (obedience of faith). We may expect if there is little faith, there will be little obedience. In place of little obedience, often comes many excuses.

Ro 16:26-ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT OF THE EVERLASTING GOD, MADE KNOWN TO ALL NATIONS FOR (or leading to) THE OBEDIENCE OF FAITH.

God would have us to be "obedient to the faith." Indeed, we receive grace for obedience to the faith.
Acts 6:7-AND THE WORD OF GOD INCREASED; AND THE NUMBER OF THE DISCIPLES MULTIPLIED IN JERUSALEM GREATLY; AND A GREAT COMPANY OF THE PRIESTS WERE OBEDIENT TO THE FAITH.

Ro 1:5-BY WHOM WE HAVE RECEIVED GRACE AND APOSTLESHIP, FOR OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH AMONG ALL NATIONS, FOR HIS NAME.

14-BE FOLLOWERS OF THEM OF FAITH, WHO HAVE SPOKEN UNTO YOU THE WORD OF GOD

The Scriptures tell us to be followers of or imitate those, who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised-ref Heb 6:12 NIV.

Heb 6:12-THAT YE BE NOT SLOTHFUL, BUT FOLLOWERS OF THEM WHO THROUGH FAITH AND PATIENCE INHERIT THE PROMISES.

Heb 13:7-REMEMBER THEM (your leaders) WHICH HAVE THE RULE OVER YOU, WHO HAVE SPOKEN UNTO YOU THE WORD OF GOD: WHOSE FAITH FOLLOW, CONSIDERING THE END OF THEIR CONVERSATION (consider the outcome of their way of life-NIV).

web site

http://www.parentalguide.com/Documents/Doctrines/Faith_examine-self_part2.htm

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AMH
Advanced Member
Member # 4895

Icon 1 posted      Profile for AMH     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
RE: Message sent to me; an article by J. Mac.

The law is by its very nature a technical endeavor. The Bible says that if you have broken one of the commandments that you are guilty of all. Do we understand that breaking the commandments are a matter of the heart and the will? We have to do something or think something in order to become a breaker of the law of God.

Never in the history of mankind has an infant ever broken even one law of God. Therefore infants are not guilty before God and are not condemned before God. They are innocent of any wrong doing. And so is God innocent of any wrong doing. God is just and does not convict any one of crimes that they never committed.

I found the article to be deplorable just as when Job was slandered by Satan.

AMH

Posts: 350 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AMH
Advanced Member
Member # 4895

Icon 1 posted      Profile for AMH     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
When the Lord created the angels He imputed righteousness and eternal life in them and all this without them ever having done any works. So it is not such an unusual thing for the Lord to impute it on believers without them ever doing any works. What would be unusual is that if the tree be corrupt that He would let it live indefinitely. (Luke 13:6-10)
Posts: 350 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bandit
Advanced Member
Member # 3643

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Bandit     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yep, OSAS is a false doctrine. Salvation is having a certain kind of relationship with God. If and when that relationship ends - salvation is gone. Those who vehemently defend OSAS would better spend their time by vehemently defending the eternal security of those who eternally remain in that relationship with God. Yes, there is something we could call 'eternal security', but OSAS is not it. OSAS should be dumped, and the true basis of 'eternal security' should be embraced. This true basis for 'eternal security' is a current and ongoing participation in the New Covenant.

Bandit

Posts: 113 | From: Melbourne, Florida | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47

Icon 15 posted      Profile for Miguel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Rom. 4:8: The Greek word that is translated "will not" in this verse is what is called an emphatic negative and it means "not ever." This is the strongest language possible that those who receive forgiveness will not ever have their sins held against them. He didn't just say "did not" or "does not" but "will not" implying that even future tense sins have been dealt with, through the sacrificial offering of Jesus, once for all (Heb. 10:10, 14).
This is a blessed word for God have say it in His word that is Him that bringeth to not this sins of our, and with a new heart new fruits of the Spirit. Yet we leave in this sinful body!
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 But when this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and when this mortal shall put on immortality, then will take place the word that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory.
Job 17:14 I have said to corruption, You are my father; to the worm, My mother and my sister!

--------------------
Romans 9:11-24

Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!

Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lars7
Advanced Member
Member # 4911

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Lars7   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Romans 4:8

Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Rom. 4:8: The Greek word that is translated "will not" in this verse is what is called an emphatic negative and it means "not ever." This is the strongest language possible that those who receive forgiveness will not ever have their sins held against them. He didn't just say "did not" or "does not" but "will not" implying that even future tense sins have been dealt with, through the sacrificial offering of Jesus, once for all (Heb. 10:10, 14).

Most Christians have the concept that the sins that they committed before they professed faith in Christ were forgiven at salvation, but any sins that are committed after that time are not forgiven until they are repented of and forgiveness is asked. That is not the case.

All our sins, past, present, and future were forgiven us through the one offering of Jesus. If God can't forgive future tense sins, then none of us can be saved because Jesus only died once, nearly 2,000 years ago, before we had committed any sins. All our sins have been forgiven.

Why then 1 John 1:9 which says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." This is not speaking of the eternal salvation of our spirit but rather the salvation of our souls (Jas. 1:21, 1 Pet. 1:9). It's our spirits that get born again at salvation, and sin will never be imputed to our born-again spirits. They have been sanctified and perfected forever (Heb. 10:10, 14; 12:23) and cannot sin (1 Jn. 3:9).

However, we are still in the process of saving our souls (Jas. 1:21; 1 Pet. 1:9). When we sin the devil has a legal right to bring his forms of death into our soulish area (Rom. 6:16). How do we get the devil out once he has gotten in? We confess it and God brings that forgiveness that is already a reality in our born-again spirit out into the soulish realm and the devil has no right to stay.

If we had to confess every sin committed after our born-again experience in order to maintain our salvation, no one would ever make it. What if we forgot to confess some sin? That puts the burden of salvation back on us.

We must remember that "God is a Spirit" (Jn. 4:24) and we must worship Him through our new born-again spirit. Therefore, we truly are blessed because God will not hold any sin against our spirit. Our spirit is clean and pure (Eph. 4:24; Heb. 12:23; 1 Jn. 4:17) and will not change due to our performance.

Posts: 49 | From: Ma | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47

Icon 15 posted      Profile for Miguel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Rom 4:6 Even as David also says of the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness without works.

God tells us in Romans 4:6 that He imputes righteousness without works! God exhorts, advise, command, and direct the blessedness of man. What is that God is imputing unto us! Is the righteousness of Christ for He alone is the One that fulfill all the works of the law we don’t fulfill by mans faith of actions by it is fulfill in Christ Jesus. God imputes (log-id'-zom-ahee) the righteousness of Christ unto us, 2Co 3:4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God, 2Co 3:5 not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything as of ourselves, but our sufficiency is of God; 2Co 3:6 who also has made us able ministers of the new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit makes alive. God justifies us, this must be done by the righteousness of another; and that can be done no other way by the righteousness of another, than by imputing it to us: and which is done "without works"; not without the works of Christ, of which this righteousness consists; but without the works of the creature, or any consideration of them, which are utterly excluded from justification; for if these came into account, it would not be of grace, and boasting would not be removed. Now such who have this righteousness thus imputed to them, are happy persons; they are justified from all sin, and freed from all condemnation; their persons and services are acceptable to God; it will be always well with them; they are heirs of glory, and shall enjoy it.

2Co 12:6 For if I desire to boast, I shall not be foolish. For I will speak the truth. But I spare, lest anyone should think of me as being beyond what he sees me, or hears of me; 2Co 12:7 and by the surpassing revelations, lest I be made haughty, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be made haughty.
2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord three times, that it might depart from me.
2Co 12:9 And He said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore I will rather glory in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may overshadow me.

--------------------
Romans 9:11-24

Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!

Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AMH
Advanced Member
Member # 4895

Icon 1 posted      Profile for AMH     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Terriebear,

You are brave to tell us of these things. Our Heavenly Father loves us dearly. So much that He gave His only Son. He does not ask of us any thing that He has not already given, only trust and obey. Keep your faith Terriebear, God loves you.

I feel that this subject is not the best for this format because of the variety of backgrounds that we all have. But it is an important one to us. How we discuss it without some discomfort is difficult to know. Since you have voiced your concern Terriebear I will not wait for a response to my question from Miguel.

Terriebear-

There are some people who believe that since God is sovereign, (and He is), but they place such importance on His sovereignty that there is no room in their thinking for the free will choice of any person. They go so far in their belief in God’s sovereignty that they would tell us that God is the only one with a choice in the matter, so that some infants are chosen by God to be saved and other infants are not chosen by God to be saved. It does not matter what we do.

Others are not willing to go quite so far in their emphasis on God’s sovereignty. They only want to go half way. By this I mean that they give assurances that God holds in His hands all infants. But over time some of these infants are plucked from His mighty hand. These they would call lost people, (and rightly so). To them this is the non-sovereignty part of salvation; that half way house that they live in. But once a lost person is saved then the sovereignty of God kicks back in and now they will allow for no plucking.

I am sorry that there is sadness. But with faith Terriebear, everything is possible. God bless you Terriebear.

AMH

Posts: 350 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Terrriebear
New Member
Member # 4940

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Terrriebear   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I find this debate very confusing. My children all accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior when they were children. At that time I read them Bible stories at home, they went to Sunday School, two of them went to a Christian school and they understood that they did bad things (they sinned) and they needed to ask Jesus to forgive their sin and be their Lord and Savior. They beleivved Jesus died, was buried and rose again and that he is God. but they were taken from me, I lost custody and they were not raised by me. My youngest son goes to the Catholic church and beleives you earn salvation by doing good works. My other three children no longer have any interest in church, in the Bible, in prayer. They drink and party and do not live for the Lord. They have asked me if they are going to go to hell (one is sure she is no good and will go to hell). I tell them what I have always heard preached and taught in church - that once you become a child of God you are always a child of God. God holds you in his hand and he will never let you go. You have been forgiven, Jesus paid for your sin- you have received eternal life- for ever. But they (and I) still have doubts. Naturally I hope and wish and pray they would live for the Lord, but at present they do not. So are they going to heaven when they die or are they going to hell?

--------------------
"But God commended His love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans5:8

Posts: 4 | From: Chicopee, MA | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AMH
Advanced Member
Member # 4895

Icon 1 posted      Profile for AMH     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Miguel,

In your posting dated 8-1-05 12:31 PM you mentioned infants. Your arguments, (not just this posting) seem actually to hinge on the infants that you write of. Can you tell me, if physical death occurs in infancy does the child go to be with our Father in heaven?

AMH

Posts: 350 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oneyearandcounting
Advanced Member
Member # 4449

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oneyearandcounting     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Amen David

--------------------
Acts9:18 And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized.

Posts: 183 | From: winder Ga | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1

Icon 1 posted      Profile for KnowHim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Reposting the below for those that did not get to see it the last time I posted it:

OSAS?? Warning

If one produces bad fruit and continues to do so, they never knew Jesus as their savior. Therefore they we never saved to begin with. That is the point.
This means that if one is saved they will live like it. And once you are truly saved, you will not want to re-crucify Jesus afresh.

Hebrews 6:4-6

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

But to teach one that they can just walk the aisle and be baptized (get your ticket to heaven) and go back to your former way of life is a very bad thing. This is deception and can and does cause many to never come to know Jesus Christ personally as their savior. One should watch what they are saying and never cause one to lose their soul because of this type of teaching. If one takes the teaching of the OSAS an don’t understand it, believes in the ticket to heaven syndrome, and never comes to know Jesus Christ but just does the ritual aisle walk, then they will be lost in Church and never come to salvation. For the longer they go in this condition, the harder their heart will become and they may never truly believe in Jesus because they have convinced themselves that they are saved through the ritual then having coming into a real relationship with Jesus Christ. Thus never ever being saved in the first place.

WARNING - Never try to convince someone that they are saved because they walked the aisle or got baptized. You don’t know their heart, only God knows their heart. And if you convince someone they are saved when in reality they are not, then you are assisting Satan and helping them slide quietly into the pit of hell. If someone is not living like they are saved, then most likely they are not and never came to know Jesus as their Lord in the first place.

Matthew 7:22-23 (NKJV)
Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. . . . Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? (1 Jn. 2:19,22).



Should we just assume that all those who claim to be Christians are saved, no matter how they are living? No, the burden of proof is on the person who claims to be a new creation in Christ. Anyone who says he knows Christ as Savior should prove it by living a life that supports his claim. Paul said of such persons, "'The Lord knows those who are His,' and, 'Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity'" (2 Tim. 2:19).

The apostle John indicated that some who depart from the faith reveal that they were never really saved in the first place. He wrote, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us" (1 Jn. 2:19). Given such possibilities, all we can do is conclude that a person either is or is not giving evidence of having eternal life. God alone is his Judge.



For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire" (2 Pet. 2:20-22).

The illustration at the end of this passage shows us that Peter was not implying a loss of salvation. Since the dog was still a dog, and the pig was still a pig, they both went back to their own natural ways. Both returned because neither had experienced an essential change of nature. At best, both had merely been cleaned, combed, pampered, and flattered.

This is the best explanation for those who appear to have completely lost any faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. But if the truth were known, they never had it. They may have enjoyed many of the benefits of the truth and people of God for a while, but it had never resulted in a real change of heart. They had grown up among the wheat as hard-to-tell-the-difference weeds (tares). But in time they showed their true colors. John explained that, in leaving, they made it clear that their salvation was not the real thing (1 Jn. 2:19).

Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

Icon 18 posted      Profile for becauseHElives   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
ONCE SAVED - ALWAYS SAVED?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE SECURITY OF THE BELIEVER
JOHN 10:28, 29 (ASV)Jesus said "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand." NIV

JOHN 5:24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

PHILIPPIANS 1:6 “Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;”

You gave your heart to Jesus. You honestly desired to be changed, to have a new heart, to be righteous from the inside out. You were baptized in His name - and the name of His Father, and the name of the Spirit. You are now part of the body of Christ, His church, His bride. Your name is written in Heaven, in the Book of Life. No one, not even Satan himself, can take you away from your Savior. You're safe. You're secure forever. Right?

Well, yes - and no.

It’s easy to see that as long as you want a relationship with Him, Christ your Savior will allow nothing to sever that relationship. But what happens if you should turn your back on Christ and go back to a life of willful sin without regard for God or fellow man? Does God ever have grounds for divorce??

GOD IS ULTIMATELY CONCERNED WITH OUR FREEDOM OF CHOICE.

God created Adam and Eve in His own image. Man was given free will. Without free will there can be no love, for love by definition must be freely given. Men are not androids, programed to act within narrow defined parameters.

To God, this freedom of choice was so important that He was willing to sacrifice His only Son rather than create man without this freedom. The Father knew of course, that one day Lucifer, His highest creation, would rebel against Him never to return. He knew that Adam and Eve would choose to doubt His love, and to disobey His command never to eat of “the tree.” He knew that only a portion of their descendants would finally be reconciled. He knew what it would take to win them back. And yet He created beings with the freedom to choose.

WILL WE LOVE AND TRUST HIM, OR NOT?
Obedience is an outward sign, a result of our trust relationship with God. If we love and trust our Father, we will obey Him because we believe that He knows what is best for us. When we disobey God, we are really saying, "I don't believe you", "I think you are keeping something good from me." This is the rationale that Satan used at the tree in the garden. Being saved is not just a legal manipulation. Being saved means that we have come to trust God completely. We have entered a relationship which allows God to make changes in our thoughts, desires, and actions.

WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE "SAVED?"

"I'm saved," He says. "I will live forever. Someday I will live in a beautiful city with streets made of gold."

Yes, that can all true. He can live forever in a beautiful place. But there is much more to salvation. We are saved from sin - not just from death and unpleasantness. We are saved from the selfishness within our own hearts. Christ Himself through His Spirit comes to live in us. We live mind to mind with our Savior. Through us He pours out His gentleness, His kindness, His patience, His unselfishness, His power, and His truth - His love. We enter into a living, dynamic relationship with a living being - our Lord.

Some people very much want to live forever in Heaven, but they are not so concerned with real day to day righteousness. They want the rewards but not necessarily the relationship. Yet it is the relationship which leads to the final reward. We cannot have one without the other.

CAN A MAN CHOOSE TO LEAVE GOD?
HEBREWS 3:12-14 "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,"

There’s that word again - “unbelief.” What did Jesus say, "If you believe.” The above text suggests that one can believe in Christ, and then be deceived into unbelief. The Israelites who died in the wilderness, could not enter into the promised land because of “unbelief.” Their disobedience was proof of their disbelief. (Hebrews 3:19) If we believe, we will obey. If we refuse to obey, it is because we do not truly believe in the rightness of God.
MATTHEW 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

1 JOHN 1:7 "If we walk in the light .... the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin."

ROMANS 11:22 "Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off."

1 JOHN 2:24 "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father."

The words HOLD, WALK, CONTINUE, ABIDE, REMAIN, all suggest an ongoing relationship, rather than a one time decision. The word "if" stresses an ongoing choice between options.

2 TIMOTHY 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us."

JOHN 15:1-6 "You are already clean (saved) because of the word which I have spoken to you. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."

Here clearly are believers who are "saved." They have been forgiven of their sins. They are clean. Yet Christ tells them that they will be cut off the tree like a withered branch, and "cast into the fire," unless they continue to abide in Him.

Again notice the words ENDURE, AND ABIDE are commands to continue. Again the word "if" suggests alternatives, and free choice.

1 CORINTHIANS 9:27 Paul himself said, ". . . lest by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a cast away." (rejected)

If anyone was in a "saved" condition, if was Paul. The apostle to the Gentiles - stoned, imprisoned, whipped, shipwrecked, all for the cause of Christ. Yet here Paul says there is a chance that even He could be “cast away,” if He does not continue to abide in Christ, and thereby keep His commandments.

ROMANS 11:17-20,21,22 Paul speaking to a Gentile convert says, "...some of the branches were broken off, and you ... were grafted in....." "Do not be haughty but fear, for if God did not spare the natural branches He may not spare you either." "Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God; on those who fell severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off."

First please notice that “some,” not all, of the “natural branches” (biological descendants of Abraham) were “cut off” “because of unbelief.” God has not broken His covenant with Israel. His covenant with Abraham continues to this day for any Jew who comes to believe in Christ. Paul here tells the Gentile convert that He has been grafted into the tree (the true Israel - the believing descendants of Abraham). He has become part of the church. He is blessed of God. He is saved. His name has been written in Heaven. Yet just like the unbelieving Jews, he can and will be cut off if he does not continue in the faith.

SOME WILL DEPART
1 TIMOTHY 4:1 ". . . some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits"

1 TIMOTHY 5:15 "For some have already turned aside after Satan."

REVELATION 2:4 (Speaking to the church of Ephesus) "you have left your first love." "Repent"

2 PETER 2:20 "For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."

2 PETER 1:9-10 Peter tells the brethren to give all diligence to their growth in knowledge and virtue, "for he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins." (He lacks faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, charity.) "Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if your do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

Peter here seems to be saying that if one does not "give diligence" or attention to Christian growth, he could stumble and fall away and thereby loose his election or entrance into the everlasting kingdom of Christ. In other words - he could loose his salvation.

HEBREWS 10:26 "For if we sin (are sinning or continue to sin) willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin."

(This verse was improperly translated from the Greek because there is no present participle in the Greek.)

This verse describes exactly the condition of the callous individual who believes that he has been saved and therefore cannot ever be lost. He goes on sinning without even trying to stop, all the while believing that he is in a saved condition. There is nothing that God can do for this person, because he does not sense his need.

EZEKIEL 33:13 "When I say to the righteous he will surely live (eternally), and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die (the second death)."

Here is the man who believes that his salvation is a fact, which nothing can alter. He has been righteous and will receive his reward. Because he believes that his reward is certain, he becomes careless. He does not feel his need of continued heavenly support. He does not stay close to Christ or pray for victory. And what happens? He “commits iniquity” - of course. The text is clear - he will die in his iniquity, with his sin unforgiven.

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A RIGHTEOUS MAN TURNS AWAY
FROM RIGHTEOUSNESS?
EZEKIEL 18:26-27 "When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die (the "second death").

Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteous, he will save his life (eternally)." (Ezekiel 33:13-16)

No man can be righteous without the indwelling Holy Spirit, so this "righteous man" must be in a saving relationship with God. Yet if he turns away from righteousness he will die (eternally).

MALACHI 3:7 "Return to Me, and I will return to you, Says the LORD of hosts."

THE MESSAGES TO THE SEVEN CHURCHES
REVELATION 1:1 - 3:22 John the apostle was given a message for each of seven churches. Each message was given by Christ Himself. Each message gives a command, and each message gives a promise of reward for those who follow the command.

To Ephesus, the message is given by the One “who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands” (Rev. 2:1, 1:13,20). The command is given: “Repent and do the first works...” (Rev. 2:5). The promise: “TO HIM WHO OVERCOMES, I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God” (Rev. 2:7).

The implied message would be that whomever does NOT overcome, will NOT eat of the tree of life.

To Smyrna, the message is given by “the First and the Last, who was dead and came to life:” (Rev. 2:8). The command is given: “Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life” (Rev. 2:10). The additional statement is made: “HE WHO OVERCOMES shall not be hurt by the second death” (Rev. 2:11).

The implication - that the one who is NOT faithful, and does NOT overcome, will NOT receive th crown of life, and will die the second death. The second death is the “lake of fire” (Rev. 20:6,14).

Remember that these messages were not given to unbelievers. They were given to the churches.

To Sardis, the message is given by “He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars” (Rev. 1:16,20). The command: “Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die” (Rev. 3:2). And the promise: “You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. HE WHO OVERCOMES shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels” (Rev. 3:4-5).

If Christ does not confess the name of a sinner before His Father, that sinner will be lost. His name will be blotted from the Book of Life, and he will die the second death. (Rev. 20:15). No one will enter the New Jerusalem who’s name is not found written in the Book of Life (Rev. 21:27).

To Philadelphia, the message is given by “He who is holy, He who is true, He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts, and no one opens” (Rev. 3:7, 1:11,18). The command is given to “Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown” (Rev. 3:11). The promise: “HE WHO OVERCOMES, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out not more. And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name” (Rev. 3:12).

The “crown” here referred to is the “crown of life.” To receive this crown is to receive eternal life. The “key of David” is the key to life - eternal life (Rev. 1:18).

To Laodicea, the message is again given by Christ, “the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God;” (Rev. 3:14). To command: “buy from Me gold,” and “white garments,” and “eye salve.” Hear my voice and open the door” (Rev. 3:18-21). The promise: “and I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me” (Rev. 3:21). “To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcome and sat down with My Father on His throne” (Rev. 3:21).

Anyone who refuses to open his heart to Christ will not receive eternal life.

THE LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE
REVELATION 21:27 "But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life."

LUKE 10:20 "Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven."

HEBREWS 12:23 "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant . . ."

PHILIPPIANS 4:3 "And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life."

REVELATION 12:18 "All who dwell on the earth will worship him (the beast), whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Rev. 17:8)

REVELATION 20:15 "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

REVELATION 22:19 " . . . and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy (Revelation) , God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

REVELATION 3:5 "He who overcomes ... I will not blot out his name out of the Book of Life."

Our name is written in “the Lamb’s book of life” when we come to God in repentance and faith. We receive forgiveness. The words “blot out his name,” and “take away his part” tell us that it is possible for us to loose salvation and eternal life. Once saved - always saved is not taught here.

"LAST RITES" - LAST MINUTE SALVATION

A mafia keeps a priest close by for "emergencies." Can the mass, administered by a priest just before, or even just after death (before the soul leaves the body), gain a place in Heaven for one who committed murder after murder in life, with no thought of reform?

The thief on the cross asked for and received assurance of a place in Christ's kingdom (Luke 23:42,43). Does this mean that any one of us may ask for and receive forgiveness and salvation in the last moments of our life?

Only God knows the heart. If the person who is dying is asking for absolution just so that he/she will go to the good place instead of the bad place - then the answer is no. On the other hand, if that person is genuinely sorry for his sin, if he has truly caught a glimpse of the great love of God, if he greatly desires a relationship with God and with His Son for all eternity, then the answer is yes.

REASSURANCE
The human mind cannot live with the thought of burning torment without end. The individual seeks reassurance that, no matter what happens, no matter what he does or does not do in the future, he will never go “there.” This is why the “once saved - always saved” doctrine is so important to those who believe there is a place called “Hell.”

Other studies at this web site will explain that God will not send anyone to a place called “hell,” to be tortured for eternity. See: “The Condition of Man in Death,” and “Hell - A Future Event , Not a Present Place.” Please be assured - God does not believe in cruel or unusual punishment any more than you do.

I invite the reader of this study to read the studies “The Condition of Man in Death,” and “Hell - A Future Event , Not a Present Place.” Please be assured - God does not believe in cruel or unusual punishment any more than you do.

CONSIDER A FEW EXAMPLES OF PERSONS
WHO WERE IN A RIGHT RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD, AND THEN FELL AWAY.
SOME REPENTED AND WERE RESTORED AGAIN, SOME WERE NOT.
David: PSALM 51:11 "take not Thy Holy Spirit from me."

v. 12 "Restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation."
Saul: 1 SAMUEL 10:6,9 Saul was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied. He was converted.

v. 9 "God gave him another heart."
1 SAMUEL 31:1-6 Saul committed suicide rather than be captured by the enemy.
1 SAMUEL 28:6,16 The Lord refused to communicate with Saul.
v. 16 The Lord had departed from Saul.
1 SAMUEL 28:7-25 Saul consulted with the spirit medium of Endor.
1 CHRONICLES 10:13,14 "for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it: He (God) slew him."
Solomon: Was close to the Lord when he began his reign as king. Then he married many heathen wives and they turned his heart away from God and he built alters to their false gods. In his old age he returned to God but not in time to save the kingdom of Israel from the result of his influence.

Judas: He walked with Jesus for three years, and accepted him as the Messiah. Then he betrayed him.

Mary Magdalene: Saved seven times. (Mark 16:9)

The parable of the Prodigal Son: He was free to leave again if he chose. (Luke 15:11-32)

1 Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

THE CITIES OF REFUGE
When a murderer fled to a "city of refuge" he was safe from the "avenger of blood" only so long as he remained inside the city. (Numbers 35:26-27). If he ventured outside, the avenger could kill him. So we are safe from Satan "the destroyer" only so long as we remain in Christ our Refuge.

WHAT DOES THE SANCTUARY SYMBOLISM TELL US?

The sacrificial system pointed forward to Christ “the Lamb of God” who was sacrificed once for the sins of the whole world. Each time an Israelite sinned he could bring a lamb to the Sanctuary (later the Temple) and obtain forgiveness. He would confess his sin over the head of the Lamb, symbolically transferring that sin to the Lamb. If coming to Christ once is sufficient for all our sins- past, present, and future, then the sacrifice of one lamb - once in his life - should have provided forgiveness for life, for the Israelite. But this was not the case.

Unconfessed sin in the life of an Israelite on the Day of Atonement meant separation from God's people. So in fulfillment of this prophecy, unconfessed sin in the life of any person at the end of his/her life (or at the last Day of Atonement just before Christ returns) means that he/she will be "cut off" from God's people forever.

Christ's death on the cross won for Him the right to forgive anyone who comes to Him in faith. It covers all sins of ignorance (Lev. 5:17-19, John 9:41). Yes, Christ died once for all sin, for all time, but each time we sin knowingly we must ask for and claim that forgiveness in the name of Christ. We cannot ask in advance to be forgiven for our future sins. (This was the Roman practice of buying indulgences - forgiveness in advance, which caused Luther to lash out at the Roman Church.) Before we can be forgiven, we must hate our sin, we must be sorry for the pain we have brought to the heart of God, and to our fellow men.

IT IS A DAILY CHOICE.

LUKE 9:23 " Then He said to them all, ?If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.'"

1 CORINTHIANS 15:31 "I die daily."

ONCE SAVED - ALWAYS SAVED?
MATTHEW 18:23-35 THE PARABLE OF THE DEBTOR

Sins are forgiven and covered when confessed and forsaken. So long as the sinner remains in Christ, his past sins remain covered and forgiven. If however, this person returns to his former life without Christ, his sins, past and present will be open in the books of Heaven. He will meet the record of his entire life on judgment day.

This lesson is taught in the parable of the unmerciful servant, who after he had been forgiven his entire debt, (been saved) dealt harshly with his debtors, and the Lord then required him to pay all that had once been forgiven him."

If forgiveness were obtained by doing something to coax God into forgiving us, then it would also be true that we can do things that would cause God to change His mind.

But if forgiveness is discovered as an unchanging quality in the heart of God , then the way to lose forgiveness is to separate oneself from this forgiving God. (See the study on "The Wrath of God" at this web site.)

I can become so rebellions, so drawn by the cheap attractions of sin, that I don't care about forgiveness
I can become so self-righteous, so impressed with my good works, that I don't think I need forgiveness.
I can be so smitten by guilt that Satan convinces me to think God could never forgive such a sinner as I.
I can become absorbed in the cares of this life and become so busy that I forget about God and my relationship with Jesus.
But in each case I am the one who has changed. God has not changed.

This, of course, is the weakness of the "once saved, always saved" doctrine. It is based on the premise that once God has decided to forgive a sinner, He will never change His mind. The problem is, God does not change His mind; we do! The sin problem doesn't center in God's opinion of man, but in man's opinion of God.

God is forgiveness. He cannot be untrue to Himself. There was never a point in time when Divinity decided to forgive sinners. "For I am the Lord, I change not." (Malachi 3:6) God forgave man before he ever sinned. God forgave man before he ever existed. But man must accept that forgiveness, and renew his relationship with God, before he can receive its life giving power.

There is another deception into which many Christians fall. It is the sin of presumption. Many come to believe that God is so forgiving that He will continue to forgive them, no matter how long they continue to repeat their sin. As long as they ask for forgiveness over and over, they can sin, over and over. This deception is deadly, because they have ignored the need for repentance. David said, “If I regard sin in my heart, the Lord will not hear me” (Psalm 66:18).. Confession is not enough. Repentance is also necessary. To repent means “to turn around.” It means to stop doing what you were doing. Those who believe that confession is enough, never really plan to change. They never ask God for the power to change. They deny Christ entrance into hearts and their lives.

ROMANS 6:16 "You are the slaves of the one you obey."

If I willfully, blatantly sin then I am Satan's slave. If I say, "forgive me," but then I deny the saving power of God, to change my life, I deny God Himself. I refuse the essence of forgiveness which is healing, and I am lost.

BY GRACE YOU ARE SAVED, THROUGH FAITH
WE MUST BELIEVE
If we lose faith, we lose salvation.

JOHN 20:31 ". . . but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

ACTS 16:31 "So they said, 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.'"

MARK 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

MARK 9:23-24 "Jesus said to him, "If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes." Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, "Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!"

ROMANS 11:20-21 "Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

HEBREWS 3:12-14 "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end."

HEBREWS 3:19 "So we see that they (Israel) could not enter (into Canaan) in because of unbelief."

HEBREWS 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."

If you do not believe that your Heavenly Father can help you, will help you, and in fact desires very much to help you, then you will not reach out to Him. You will not pray. You will not ask, and God will not enter your mind without your permission. He will not violate your free will.

We must believe that Jesus is indeed the Son of God. We must believe that He can and will forgive our sins. We must believe that He can and will live in us, and give us power to overcome any inherited or cultivated tendency to sin. We must believe that Christ living in us can overcome. This faith opens the door to God's healing forgiveness.

If I deny the power of God to overcome every sin, I am saying that God's power in my life is insufficient. I have closed the door.

There is no need to be lost. Paul wrote, "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" (Philippians 4:13). "With God nothing is impossible" (Luke 1:37). "What He has promised, He is able to perform" (Romans 4:21). "You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world (1 John 4:4).

Forgiveness is more than a legal maneuver. Salvation is more than a ticket to the city with golden streets.

God can and will change your life. But you must respond. You must choose whom you will believe. If you once had faith and somehow lost that confidence in God, go and find it again. Search, read, pray until you find it - until you find Him.

And remember, faith too is promised (1Cor 12:9).

ONLY BELIEVE
ACTS 16:31 (ASV)So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." NKJV

JAMES 2:19 (ASV)You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe -- and tremble! NKJV

In what way does the belief of a child of God differ from that of a demon? Demons will not be saved in the kingdom of God - yet we read that they “believe.” Demons know who God is. They know He does exist. They know He is all powerful. They also know that they have lost the battle for this world. Christ will soon banish Satan to the pit. The belief held by the child of God goes beyond knowing what is and what will be.

First: The child of God believes certain things about the character of God. He/she believes that God is love, that God is kind, patient, and merciful.

Second: In the child of God belief leads to obedience. His/her obedience says, I believe that God is just, and holy, and good, and knows what is best for me. The child of God has surrendered, because he/she believes in the goodness of God.

"NEVER REALLY SAVED"
Suppose I return to a life of sin after I have been baptized, after I have made a commitment to Christ. Many Christians would say this action on my part indicates that I was never "really" saved. They believe that if a person is saved he is changed and will never return to his old life.

What does this mean to me, if I'm out there sinning again? If I'm sleeping with someone without benefit of marriage - was I never really saved? If I become addicted to drugs and begin to steal - was I never really saved? What if I'm jealous of a coworker? Want if I gossip frequently? At what point do I know that I was never "really" saved, so I'd better go back and do it right this time? If I commit "big" sins, then, for sure, I was never really saved. But what if I continually commit "little" sins?

Salvation is a process. I am being saved. Day by day - hour by hour, I am growing in grace. I have entered a relationship with my Savior. I may slip and fall many times, but so long as I continue to pray, to ask for forgiveness desiring to become like Christ in character, I have not left that relationship. (Let's face it, because of temperament or training, some folks find it easier to act like a Christian than others do.) If I were to die before I reached full maturity, Christ's righteousness would cover my imperfections, and I would be welcome in Heaven.

I have said that I consider myself to be in a saved condition - now, because I have entered into a saving relationship with Christ. I could comfortably say, “I am saved,” or even “I have been saved.” I do not, however, believe that I am irrevocably saved. I may revoke my salvation, if I choose to leave my relationship with Christ.

Just as marriages sometimes die through neglect, so my relationship with Christ could die if severely neglected. Suppose I just choose to pursue things other than spiritual growth . (I’m not openly rebellious towards God. I haven’t consciously turned away from Him.) The end result is the same. Doubts creep in, slowly almost imperceptibly. One day I realize my faith is gone. I can choose to go in search of evidence to restore my faith. Like the prodigal son I can return to the Father’s house. But the longer I stay away, the greater the likelihood that I will ever return.

HOW CAN THE UNIVERSE BE SECURE?
How can the universe be secure for eternity if human beings, or angels for that matter, can choose to rebel? That’s why the resolution of the sin problem has taken so long. God wanted all intelligent beings to see for themselves the results of doing things any other way than His way. He wanted to answer every possible question which has, or ever will be asked concerning His character, His law, His mercy, and His justice. God allowed the horrible results of rebellion, He then gave His only begotten Son, because He is committed to free will. For without free will, there can be no love.

EPHESIANS 2:8
EPHESIANS 2:8 (ASV)"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God." NKJV, NAS (similar wording in NIV and NASB)

The words “you have been saved” in this verse are used by many Christians to support the doctrine of “once saved - always saved.” The words “have been” are translated from the Greek “este” (#2075). The word is translated 82 times as “are,” 5 times as “be,” 1 time as “belong to,” and 1 time as “have been” in the KJV. The word is present tense, and does not necessarily point to something which happened in the past. The verse could be paraphrased - “this is how you are saved - through faith.”
Compare the Phillips: “For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith”
New English: “For it is by his grace you are saved,”
Amplified: “For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved”
King James: “For by grace are ye saved through faith;”
In the parable of the sower, the seed which fell on stony ground, and the seed which fell among thorns did sprout and begin to grow. Christ explained that the person represented by the rocky ground, first received the word (seed) with joy, but later the young plant died because it did not put down a root (Matthew 13, Mark 4, Luke 8).

The word did have an effect. It sprouted and began to grow. The person represented by the thorny ground, received the word (seed) “with joy.” Only later was it choked out by the thorns (the cares of life, persecution, temptation and trial). The soil represents the condition of the heart or mind, and this is personal choice. (“Do not harden your hearts” Hebrews 3:8.)

PERFECTION: IS IT NECESSARY FOR SALVATION?
If you are covered by the righteousness of Christ, then you ARE perfect in the eyes of God.

If you are abiding in Christ, if you have a relationship with God, and you are being transformed into the image of His Son, then you are indeed in a saved condition. If you were to die today, you would be called from the grave by Christ, in “the resurrection of the just.” Because one has not reached full maturity in Christ does not mean he/she is not righteous in the eyes of God, through Christ. A newborn Christian is indeed covered by the blood of Christ so long as he/she remains in that saving relationship.

A friend recently pointed out to me that the New Covenant promise of Ezekiel 36 will NOT be fully realized until we reach the promised land.

EZEKIEL 36:24-28 “For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. THEN I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.”

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

Icon 1 posted      Profile for becauseHElives   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Miguel
quote:
God "keeps" us from falling out of salvation.

Jude writes, "To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to
present you before His glorious presence without fault. . ." (Jude
24), which affirms that we do not keep ourselves in salvation by
our works. Rather, it is God who "keeps us from falling." We
cannot fall out of grace. God continually gives us His gracious,
undeserved, unmerited forgiveness to cover our sins.

This is presenting a lisense to sin, not the keeping power og grace from sin

Here is the correct interprtation of Jude's message, let te scripture interpret scripture

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (KJV)

quote:
I could not believe that
once a person was "saved" that there was no way to ever "lose" that
salvation. It seemed "crazy" to believe that I could become a
Christian today and then commit all kinds of "gross" sins tomorrow and
still have a secure future in the eternal home! I remember asking Bob
Hey, the Christian who shared the gospel with me, "Bob, do you mean
that if I accept Jesus as my Savior and Lord, and later in my life
commit murder, adultery, theft, or even commit suicide, that I would
still go to heaven?" His answer was a resounding yes.

Your gospel is good news for the child molesters, baby killers, rapist and such

no need to pray and seek Yahweh for victory over sin

temptation is no issue in the child of Yahweh's life, when sin comes no big deal go ahead and enjoy that moment of sin to ruin a child’s life by sexually abusing them. all you will lose is a reward or two in the eternal Kingdom of Yahweh, or go ahead and kill that person with your un-forgiveness you will only lose a reward or two

Disregard what Yeshua said few will enter into eternal life

Disregard that Yeshua said many will say Lord, Lord, but He will answer depart from me you lawless ones, you works of iniquity

But they answer we have been in Church have we not PREACHED IN YOUR NAME, and in THY NAME have cast out devils, and in THY NAME done MANY WONDERFUL WORKS???

“And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU, depart from me ye that WORK INIQUITY!!!”


Lars
quote:
Remove the knowledge of righteousness by faith and grace loses its power to release eternal life in our daily lives.
This is a true statement if you remove the knowledge of righteousness (right living) through faith (obedience) to the commands of Yahweh, Grace loses its power to release eternal life in our daily lives.

quote:
Eph. 2:8: Salvation is described as a gift. The dictionary defines a gift as "something that is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation; a present" (American Heritage Dictionary-see note 4 at Rom. 6:23, p. 784). When someone gives you a present you don't ask, "How much do I owe you?" Your only response should be, "Thank you very much."
Salvation is a free gift that cost us nothing, but a free gift can be rejected, or given back

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Miguel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us.

ETERNAL SECURITY


I. Introduction

In 1978 as I struggled with the content of the gospel and how it would
affect my life as a Roman Catholic, I found that the one facet of it
that "boggled" my mind was Eternal Security. I could not believe that
once a person was "saved" that there was no way to ever "lose" that
salvation. It seemed "crazy" to believe that I could become a
Christian today and then commit all kinds of "gross" sins tomorrow and
still have a secure future in the eternal home! I remember asking Bob
Hey, the Christian who shared the gospel with me, "Bob, do you mean
that if I accept Jesus as my Savior and Lord, and later in my life
commit murder, adultery, theft, or even commit suicide, that I would
still go to heaven?" His answer was a resounding yes.

Today I understand about the security of the believer and realize that
it is God who "elects" us and "calls" us and then "holds" us until the
day we join Him in the Heavenly Paradise. I have no more affect over
my security of salvation then I had over God's decision to elect me to
salvation.

II. Importance

Is the study of eternal security an important issue in the Christian
faith. Yes, for if there is a chance of "losing" our salvation then
it would make all the difference in the world and in eternity.
Knowing that our destiny may change tomorrow would certainly affect
both the inner peace we now experience and our behavior on this earth.
How anxious we would be.

Eternal Security has often been labeled one of those doctrines that we
shouldn't break Christian fellowship over. In other words, we do not
try to convince those who believe that they can lose their salvation;
we just let them go and believe what they do, because they believe in
Jesus. If they are wrong and are secure and cannot lose their
salvation then it really will be ok in the end because they have it
and just don't know it. I used to agree with that logic and "kid" my
Nazarene Brothers about the fact that they don't believe in eternal
security. But then I came to realize the real danger of such a
doctrine.

There are many false gospels in the world today, but they all have one
aspect that they unite on--a works salvation. In other words, The
false teachers agree that in order to get to heaven you must do your
"works" and if they are "good enough" then God will "let you in."
Each has their own "twist" but essentially they are the same. Let's
look at two of the most popular false gospels in our country for
examples of this:

A. Roman Catholic's Gospel - You are saved by Grace that was acquired
by the death of Jesus on the Cross. But you receive the grace as
you "do your works" (i.e., sacraments, rosaries, prayers, etc).
The more works you do then the more grace you receive. If you die
in the "state of grace" then you won't go to hell. In time you
will go to heaven, after a pause in Purgatory to "pay for your
sins!"

B. Morman's Gospel - You are saved if (1) You believe in Jesus. (2)
You are baptized by an Apostle (Morman of course). (3) You do
good works. If you do all these things first then you will be
saved.

Notice that the overriding ingredient is man's "works" to obtain or
secure salvation. False teachers seek to convince people that "works"
done before salvation gain some credit with God. A "new twist" to
that gospel is the one that says, "You are saved by faith and faith
alone (initially), but you are secure in that salvation only as you do
your good works." In other words, God saves you initially by Grace,
but then you are responsible to "stay saved" by your works. That
gospel is just as false as the ones that claim "works" are necessary
for initial salvation. When Jesus said, "I am the Way, and the Truth,
and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through Me," He meant
not only does He save us initially but also "brings us" through our
Christian Life to the Father, by His Power and Grace alone--not by our
works. A person believing that they "maintain" their salvation is
believing a false gospel that will condemn them to the eternal fires.

Let us look at the various Biblical Passages that teach eternal
security, later we will deal with the various objections that critics
of eternal security have raised.

III. What the Bible Says.

A. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith. . ."

That quote comes from the Book of Ephesians, Chapter 2, Verse 8.
It reminds us how we "got saved"--by grace. The faith we had did
not save us; rather, it merely brought the grace which had the
power of salvation. What is grace? Grace is God's unmerited favor
by which He saves us and makes us righteous. It is based solely on
His love as displayed through the death of Jesus on the cross. Our
works had nothing to do with it; in fact, we were nothing but
sinners when God saved us for, "God demonstrates His own love for
us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
(Romans 5:8).

When we first received salvation we were "wicked sinners" who had
nothing to offer God. Yet God saved us. Why would a God who saved
"worthless sinners" decide to take away that salvation because of a
sin? Before, when we were God's enemies He saved us. Now we are
children of God. Would He treat us less graciously than He does
His enemies? No, in fact, He realizes that even though He saved us
we are still subject to sins, and reminds us that the grace that
saved us will continue to "save" us unto eternal life, because,
". . .where sin increased, grace increased all the more. . ."
(Romans 5:20). God's grace continues to "cover" whatever sins we
commit. It does not matter how great a sin we commit--His grace is
sufficient to cover it. The unbeliever has never humbled himself
before God by asking for that saving grace. But, as Christians, we
have received the living and saving grace of God.

B. God "keeps" us from falling out of salvation.

Jude writes, "To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to
present you before His glorious presence without fault. . ." (Jude
24), which affirms that we do not keep ourselves in salvation by
our works. Rather, it is God who "keeps us from falling." We
cannot fall out of grace. God continually gives us His gracious,
undeserved, unmerited forgiveness to cover our sins.


Think of illustrations in the Bible of Christians who fell into
serious sin. Moses, who was called by God to lead the God's Chosen
people to the Promised land, fell into immediate sin by the killing
of an Egyptian. Did God throw him out of the Kingdom? No, he was
immediately covered with more grace. David, God's anointed King
over Israel, was the spiritual leader of the people of Israel, yet
committed adultery with Bathsheba, and then murdered her husband.
God not only forgave him, but allowed him to continue to rule
Israel and to write many of the Psalms found in the Old Testament.
Lastly, look at Peter, who publicly denied any association with
Christ, by saying that he was not a disciple of Jesus. Yet he also
was "kept" in the kingdom and given great responsibility over the
new Church. God will keep us from falling away despite our sins.

C. "I give them eternal life."

Jesus, when referring to those who would believe on Him said, "My
sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give
them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch
them out of my hand. My Father who has given them to me, is
greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."
(John 10:27-29). There is no more security than the security of
being in God's grip! Who are those who would try to take believers
out of God's hand? The one who is a thief and a destroyer, known
as Satan and his followers. But even they cannot "yank" a
Christian away from God. The evil ones can tempt and sometimes
cause us to fall into grievous sins, but never can they remove us
from the hand of God.

Jesus said He gives His sheep eternal life. What makes eternal
life eternal? The simple fact that it will never end. If he gives
us eternal life today and then takes it away tomorrow because of
sin, then it was not eternal but only "temporary eternal life,"
which is no eternal life at all.

D. "You were marked in Him with a seal."

When we first believed something happened that we could not see or
feel--we were marked as a Child of God. ". . .you also were
included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of
your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in Him with a
seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our
inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's
possession--to the praise of His glory." (Ephesians 1:13-14).
Christians are marked with the Holy Spirit, who is the "down
payment" God made when He bought us with His Blood. A deposit is
the "earnest money" that guarantees that the purchase will be
completed at a time yet future. God guarantees us that we are His
possession, and the indwelling Spirit is His proof.

E. "He who began a good work. . ."

When we were saved it was not a chance happening. God had planned
from eternity past to save us and our salvation was a partial
fulfillment of His overall plan. The Apostle Paul assures us that
what God begins--God finishes, ". . .He who began a good work in
you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."
(Philippians 1:6). Note it is God who "carries on the good work."
He is the one sanctifying us and we merely try to co-operate with
Him. We continually will fall short of the glory of God, but will
keep confessing our sins and receiving His precious grace.

IV. Answering the Critics.

Those who argue against eternal security raise these arguments
to prove their case against an eternal salvation. They are:

A. Eternal Security - Gives a license to sin.

Answer - Neither the grace of God nor the security of salvation
gives the believer divine permission to sin (Rom 6:1-2; 1John 2:1).
If a person has the idea that eternal security gives him a license
to sin, then he probably is not saved, since a truly saved person
will not make a practice of sinning. (1John 3:9). Even if a person
is a genuine Christian and tries living in sin because he cannot
lose his salvation, God will chasten the sinning Christian even to
the point of physical death in order to restore him to proper
fellowship. (1Cor 11:31-32; Heb 12:5-11; 1John 5:16-17 with
examples in Acts 5:1-11; 1Cor 5:1-5; 11:27-32; 1John 5:16-17).


B. Eternal Security - Destroys motivation for Christian living and
service.

Answer - The Bible appeals to the Christian to live for Christ and
to serve Him, not to gain or to keep salvation, but because
salvation is an assured possession and secured for eternity. (Psalm
37:28; John 10:27-29; 1John 5:13). It is a hindrance to Christian
service if the Christian is continually worried about keeping or
losing salvation.

C. Eternal Security - Contradicts the experience of certain
individuals in the Bible.

Answer 1) King Saul--Scripture infers that Saul was a saved man.
(1Sam 10:7, 9-10). However, rather than losing his salvation, it
appears that Saul was chasten of God in the severest form, that is,
by physical death because of his continual disobedience to God.
(1Sam 28:18-19; 31:3-4).

2) Judas--He is an example of a person who was lost and
never had experienced salvation in the first place. (John 6:64; 70-
71; 13:10-11; 17:11-12; Psalm 41:9; Matt 11:19; 26:50).

D. Eternal Security - Contradicts certain Biblical passages.

Answer 1) 1Cor 6:9-10; Gal 5:19-21; Rev 22:15--These verses refer
to lost persons who are habitually characterized by the attitudes
and/or actions expressed by these sins rather than referring to
saved people who supposedly lost their salvation by committing one
or more of these sins as an incident uncharacteristic of their
general tenor of life. Otherwise, Abraham (lying), Moses (murder),
and David (adultery and murder) would not inherit the kingdom of
God. (1Cor 6:9-10).

2) Hebrews 6:4-6--The persons referred to in this passage
are unbelievers, notice especially Hebrews 6:7-9; 10:26-39.

3) Matthew 24:13--Endurance or salvation is evidence of a
genuine salvation. (Phil 1:6; 1John 2:19).

4) Ezekiel 3:20; 18:24, 26; 33:12-13, 18--The righteous
being referred to in this context may only be self-righteousness.
In the context of this passage, it is also possible that the death
referred to is physical rather than spiritual.

5) John 15:2,6--These verse refer to persons who may profess
to be saved but actually are not genuine believers. Every true
believer bears some fruit (Matt 7:20; 13:23) as a result of at
least some abiding in Christ, although admittedly the degree of
abiding and fruit-bearing may vary from individual believer to
individual believer. The "branch in Me" (verse 2) is used in a
figurative illustration. Judas would be an example of such a
branch who was in the circle of Christ's chosen disciples and yet
was not a true believer. Others interpret John 15:2,6 as believers
who experience severe chastisement.

6) 2Peter 2:20-22--The context indicates that false teachers
and not true believers are in view here.

V. Conclusion

Eternal security is a reality for everyone who believes. When Jesus
died on the cross He "paid" for all of our sins. When we received His
saving grace as a free gift we received total forgiveness of all our
past, present and future sins. As we go through our Christian life we
will sin, but not as much as we mature. When we do sin it will affect
the "joy of our communion with God" and will require a confession to
restore the sweetness of the relationship. But God has, by His
sovereign will, declared some to be His forever. He chose those of us
who are saved because He wanted to without any goodness being found in
us. The keeping of that salvation is also entirely up to Him and
neither our sins nor our good works have any affect on that security.
However, to purposely sin after receiving such a great salvation is
"stepping on the Blood of Christ" and can bring swift discipline from
our Good and Loving Father, but never a loss of salvation.


Tony Capoccia

--------------------
Romans 9:11-24

Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!

Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lars7
Advanced Member
Member # 4911

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Lars7   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord

Rom. 5:21: The sin that is being spoken of here is not the individual acts of sin that we commit, but rather the propensity for sin itself. The American Heritage dictionary defines propensity as "an innate inclination; tendency; bent." It is this inherited inclination to sin that Paul is speaking of.

The word "sin" is used 45 times in the book of Romans (Rom. 3:9, 20; 4:8; 5:12, 13, 20, 21; 6:1, 2, 6, 7, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 20, 22, 23; 7:7, 8, 9, 11, 13, 14, 17, 20, 23, 25; 8:2, 3, 10; 14:23). The plural "sins" is used four times (Rom. 3:25; 4:7; 7:5; 11:2.

Of this total of 49 times that "sin" or "sins" is used in Romans, these two English words come from three Greek words. One of these Greek words "hamartema" is only used once in Romans 3:25 and only three other times in all the New Testament (Mk. 3:28; 4:12; 1 Cor. 6:18). Of the remaining 48 times, the Greek word "hamartia" was used 47 times and "hamartano" just once (Rom. 6:15).

This is very significant because the Greek word "hamartia" is a noun while "hamartano" is a verb. A noun denotes a person, place, or thing while verbs describe the action of nouns. Therefore, in all but one instance in the book of Romans, the words "sin" or "sins" describe man's tendency towards sin and not the individual acts of sins themselves. If you think of the word sin in these chapters as denoting the act of sin, you will miss what Paul is saying.

The believer's fight is not against individual acts of sin but against the inner tendency to sin. If the propensity to sin can be broken, then the actions of sin will cease. Our individual acts of sin are only an expression or indication of how well we are doing in our war against this condition of the heart that causes us to sin.

Romans 5:12 says that this propensity to sin (or what many call the sin nature) entered the world through Adam. It is this sin nature that caused us to sin, not our individual acts of sin that gave us a sin nature ( Jn. 8:44, Rom. 7:9).

At salvation, our old man (Rom. 6:6) or sin nature died but the tendency to sin remained through the thoughts and emotions that the old man left behind. The Christian doesn't have a sin nature any longer that compels him to sin but is simply dealing with the renewing of his mind.

Rom. 5:21: Sin ( at Rom. 5:21, ) ruled like a king (see ref. o at v. 17, p. 773) through condemnation (v. 16) to bring death upon everyone. Condemnation is like the general of sin that enforced its power. Likewise, now God's grace rules like a king through righteousness to bring all who are in Christ into eternal life. Righteousness is the general of grace who defends us against all the wiles of the devil.

Sin would ultimately bring death to every individual whether they were condemned or not (Rom. 6:23). But to those individuals who are guilt ridden and condemned over their sins, sin has a particularly devastating effect. Likewise, those who put faith in Christ will ultimately experience God's eternal life. But those who understand righteousness as a gift to be received and not a wage to be earned are the ones who reign as kings in this life over sin and all its effects.

Remove guilt or condemnation and sin loses its strength to rule (1 Cor. 15:56). Remove the knowledge of righteousness by faith and grace loses its power to release eternal life in our daily lives.
at Eph. 2:8: Salvation is described as a gift. The dictionary defines a gift as "something that is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation; a present" (American Heritage Dictionary-see note 4 at Rom. 6:23, p. 784). When someone gives you a present you don't ask, "How much do I owe you?" Your only response should be, "Thank you very much." But many Christians after receiving the gift of salvation are still thinking they must work to pay for their acceptance. The only acceptable response to salvation is gratitude and praise to God for His indescribable gift (2 Cor. 9:15). Salvation is a gift to be received (Rom. 6:23), not a wage to be earned.

Posts: 49 | From: Ma | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

Icon 1 posted      Profile for becauseHElives   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Lars7

quote:
If one gives his heart to Christ and accepts Him as their Lord....
This statement is true “accepts Him as their Lord” do you understand the term accepts Him as Lord

quote:
Therefore YOU CAN DO NOTHING TO LOSE IT!....
This is opinion

Rejecting the convicting influence of the Holy Spirit as part of the daily walk will get you to Hell

quote:
David loved the Lord but yet he Killed and was forgiven
This true but only when you couple it with the fact that David repented after the prophet Nathaniel confronted him (This is a shadow of the Holy Spirit's conviction upon the heart of the believer and the believer responding by confessing the sin and asking for forgiveness)

quote:
God does not view sin as we do
This is true “God does not view sin as we do” sin under the Blood is forgiven, that is why you must continually submit to Holy Spirit, walk in the Spirit, and if you sin and confess your sin Yeshua is faithful to forgive you any sin you commit

If this is not the case then why does 1st John 1:9 say what it says?

Why bother to put 1st John 1:9 in the scriptures if it has no bearing on forgiveness of sin we commit after Salvation?

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BORN AGAIN
unregistered


Icon 16 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Lars7, Grace by faith is an action on our part: we believe, He extends grace. Without active and continuous believing on our part, there will be no grace. Faith or believing is the only thing we have to do; God does the rest.

BORN AGAIN [Cross]

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lars7
Advanced Member
Member # 4911

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Lars7   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Whoa...here we go again...the Body of Christ and everyone has a different opinion....Well one thing for sure we are all not getting our information from the same Holy Spirit...To be this divided is a shame.If Christ came back today would He not only find no Faith...but much division.....The message is so simple yet we complicate it with carnel knowledge....If you are saved by GRACE through Faith that means YOU DID NOTHING TO DESERVE IT...NOR DID YOU DO ANYTHING TO EARN IT!...Therefore YOU CAN DO NOTHING TO LOSE IT!....If one gives his heart to Christ and accepts Him as there Lord....they will not be out there killing....murdering...and so fourth.Many call themselves Christians but there heart is far from the Lord.....Cain killed Able.....David loved the Lord but yet he Killed and was forgiven...Once Saved always saved is a doctrine of the Devil to divide the church.....and I can see its working to perfection....You were a SINNER...and Salvation was a FREE GIFT TO YOU....You did not deserve it no not at all....And you can sit there and tell me that you dont sin at all....not even 1....You do....we all still sin to some degree....But here is where the difference is...God does not view sin as we do....example....The Bible says that if you transgress just one law....you are guilty of all of it....Hmmmmm.....that means as far as God is concerned if you tell a lie....or kill someone its all the same to him.....there is no degree of sin to God....But to us there is a degree we measure by....we lock up killers....we dont lock up lyers.
Sin to God is disobdience plane and simple...And there is a reason for this....The Law is perfect...we are not....God knew this before He gave the Law....How could a perfect law change an imperfect man...It could not .....But the Law came to strenghten sin against us....showing us that in no way shape or form could we ever keep it...This was Gods plan...God was simply showing us that we needed a Savior!....If anyone comes to Christ and is saved....and the rest of his life never picks up his Bible....and just continues his life unchanged He will get into Heaven....He will smell like smoke for all his works will burn up before the Lord...nevertheless...He will be there.But anyone who gets an understanding of grace will want to chase after the one who brought it to them.And that would be there Father.

Posts: 49 | From: Ma | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

Icon 1 posted      Profile for becauseHElives   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I am sure the child molesters, murderers, rapist, and such are glad to hear your gospel Miguel, they can be saved and still continue to molest children, kill people, and rape and such and still go to heaven, if they repented once, no need to repent again, no need for conrition for their sin, they are saved, Once Saved Always Saved. No need for the Holy Spirit's work, no need for a daily walk of trusting in Jesus powerful grace, (look up the defition of "grace"

we are saved by "Grace" through "Faith"

Grace is an action word and so is Faith

You can peddle that trash if you want but on judgment day you will have blooding hands

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Miguel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Impute

Hebrew chashab, Greek logizomai; "to count, reckon" (Rom_4:2-8), namely, unrighteousness (whether one's own or another's) to one's discredit; or righteousness (whether one's own or another's) to one's credit whether in man's account or in the judgment book of God (Rev_20:12; Num_18:27). Phm_1:1:18; "if Onesimus hath wronged thee, or oweth thee aught, put that on mine account" In Rom_4:6 righteousness imputed without works must mean a righteousness not our own, yet reckoned as ours, namely, "the righteousness of (Him who is both) God. and Saviour Jesus Christ" (the Greek, 2Pe_1:1). The gospel sets forth God's righteousness which is Christ's.
Christ's is imputed to us; so that God is at once "just and the justifier of him that believeth in Jesus" (Rom_3:25-26). God in accepting the believer is therefore not only merciful but just. Our advocate is not merely the gracious but "Jesus Christ the righteous" (1Jo_2:1). "God is well pleased," not merely for mercy's sake, but "for His righteousness sake" (Isa_42:21; Isa_45:21 end; Jer_23:6). "The righteousness of God, by faith of Jesus Christ, is unto all and upon all them that believe" (Rom_3:22; Rom_4:5-6), "faith (not for its own worthiness, but for that of Him on whom it rests) is counted for righteousness" (Rom_10:4; 1Co_1:30). There is a threefold imputation:
I. That of Adam's sin to all his posterity; that it is so, Paul proves by the fact of all, even infants who have never actually sinned, suffering its penalty death (Rom_5:12-14; Rom_5:19), even as all inherit his corrupt nature. God, in fact, deals with us all as guilty race; for we are all liable to suffering and death; the doctrine of imputation of Adam's sin accounts for it. Yet imputation is not infusion; Adam's sin is not ours in the same sense as our own personal sin; nor is imputation the transfer of his character to us.
II. That of our sins to Christ (Isa_53:6).
III. That of Christ's righteousness to us (Rom_5:19; 2Co_5:19; 2Co_5:21). Instead of "imputing their trespasses to men," God "hath made Him to be sin for us who knew no sin, that we might be made (Greek that we may become) the righteousness of God in Him," i.e. in union with Him by faith. "Such are we in the sight of God the Father as is the very Son of God Himself" (Hooker). In justification Christ's righteousness is imputed to us; in sanctification Christ's righteousness is imparted to us, in vital union with Him the Head from whom the life flows into the members.

The just shall live by faith" (Hab_2:4) is thrice quoted by Paul:
(1) Rom_1:17, where the emphasis is on "just," the gospel plan of saving men sets forth "the righteousness (justice) of God" as excluding the righteousness of man, Gentile and Jew alike (Rom_1:17 ff; Romans 2; Rom_3:25).
(2) Gal_3:11, etc., where the emphasis is on "faith" as distinguished front works, either distinct from or combined with faith, in the act of justification, this is by faith alone.
(3) Heb_10:38-39, where the emphasis is on "live"; as in the first instance in the matter of justification, so throughout, spiritual life is continued only by faith as opposed to "drawing back."
Again, the gratuitousness of God's gift of justification is brought out by comparing Rom_3:24, "being justified freely (doorean) by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus," with Joh_15:25, "they hated ME without a cause" (doorean). As gratuitous as was man's hatred, so gratuitous is God's love justifying believers through Christ. Man had every cause to love, yet he hated, God; God had every cause given by man to hate, yet He loves, man. The Hebrew tsadaquw, Greek dikaioo, expresses, not to infuse righteousness into but to impute it to, man; to change his relation to God legally or forensically, not in the first instance to change his character. "Justification" is no more an infusion of righteousness than "condemnation," its opposite, is an infusion of wickedness, as is proved by Deu_25:1, "the judges shall justify the righteous and condemn the wicked," Pro_17:15; Isa_5:23; Psa_143:2, which shows that by inherent righteousness no man could be justified.
In 40 Old Testament passages the Hebrew is used in the forensic sense, Isa_53:11, "by His knowledge shall My righteous Servant justify many" is no exception, for the mode of His justifying them follows, "He shall bear their iniquities." So in Dan_12:3 ministers "justify" or "turn to righteousness" their converts instrumentally, i.e. bring them to God who justifies them. In Dan_8:14, margin, "the sanctuary shall be justified" means "shall be vindicated from profanation," shall stand in a relation of right before God which it had not done before its cleansing. Similarly the Greek verb means not to make righteous or pure, but to count righteous before God. Opposed to katakrinoo, "to condemn", Rom_8:33-34; "who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth?" Also Rom_5:16; Luk_18:14. Mat_11:19 means like Dan_8:14, "wisdom is vindicated from the condemnation" east on her by "this generation."
Also Mat_12:37; Luk_7:29, the publicans "justified God"; i.e. vindicated His righteousness, showed they counted Him righteous in His "counsel" by accepting the gospel; opposed to the Pharisees who "rejected" it, to their own condemnation (Rom_2:13). Before man's bar, ordinarily, the righteousness on account of which he is justified or counted righteous is his own; before God's bar, the righteousness on account of which he is justified is Christ's, which is God's (2Pe_1:1). Therefore pardon accompanies justification before God's bar, but pardon would be scorned by one innocent and therefore justified before man's bar. Again, acquittal before man is not always accompanied with justification; but the sinner pardoned before God is always justified also. In 1Jo_3:7, "he that doeth righteousness is righteous even as He is righteous"; not his doing righteousness makes him righteous, but shows that he is so, i.e. justified by the righteousness of God in Christ (Rom_10:3-10).
A man "deceives" himself if he think himself "righteous," and yet does not righteousness, for "doing righteousness" is the sure fruit and proof of "being righteous," i.e. of having the only principle of true righteousness and the only mean of justification, faith. Paul's epistle to Romans proves Jew and Gentile guilty of breaking God's universal law, therefore incapable of being justified by their own righteousness, i.e. obedience to the law. "By the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified in God's sight; but now (under the gospel) the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe; for there is no difference, for all have sinned," etc. (Rom_3:20-23). Still plainer is Rom_4:3-8 "to hint that worketh not but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith (i.e. not as a merit, but Christ's merit apprehended by faith: Eph_2:5; Eph_2:8-10) is counted for righteousness.
David describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works (as man has no righteousness of his own the 'righteousness imputed' to him can only be the righteousness of God in Christ) ... blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." The justified man is not only acquitted as innocent but regarded as having perfectly obeyed the law in the person of Christ. There is to him both the non-imputation of sin and the imputation of righteousness. "Being justified by God's grace he is made heir according to the hope of eternal life" (Tit_3:7; Rom_5:18-19). Christ is "of God made unto us righteousness," so that to believers He is "the Lord our righteousness" (1Co_1:30; Jer_23:6). Faith is the instrument or receptive mean of justification (Rom_3:28; Gal_2:16; Gal_3:8).
We are justified judicially by God (Rom_8:33), meritoriously by Christ (Isa_53:11; Rom_5:19), instrumentally or mediately by faith (Rom_5:1), evidentially by works. This is the sense of James (Jam_2:14-26), otherwise James could no more be reconciled with himself than with Paul, for he quotes the same instance and the same scripture, "Abraham believed God and it (his faith) was counted to him for righteousness," as Paul does. Luther called the doctrine of justification by faith only "the article (test) of a standing or falling church." Justin Martyr in the second century (Ep. ad Diog.) writes: "what else could cover our sins but His righteousness? in whom could we transgressors be justified but only in the Son of God? O sweet exchange! O unsearchable contrivance! that the transgressions of many should be hidden in one righteous Person and the righteousness of One should justify many transgressors." (2Co_5:21).
The Church of England Homily says: "faith doth not shut out repentance, hope, love, and the fear of God in every man justified, but it shutteth them out from the office of justifying." So: "faith, receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification, yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces." Rome makes justification the infusion of righteousness by God's Spirit and the rewarding of the good works done under His influence, at the day of judgment. This confounds justification with sanctification whereas Romans 5 and Romans 6 carefully distinguish them, and makes it a continuous process not completed until the judgment, whereas Scripture makes it completed on believing (Rom_5:1-9; Rom_8:1; Joh_5:24).

Info..

--------------------
Romans 9:11-24

Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!

Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

Icon 1 posted      Profile for becauseHElives   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The security-in-sin teachers are spiritually dangerous people.

Besides all of the other grievous declarations they make, some have also gone so far as to say that a Christian’s future sins are already forgiven, even before they are committed.

Perhaps they teach this way in an effort to safeguard their doctrine of eternal security while they continue to tickle ears. I have heard at least one state that if it was possible for a Christian to lose his salvation, it could only occur through sin. Hence, by removing (in their minds) the only danger to eternal security, they have erected an imagined indestructible shield for its protection.

(Unfortunately, like many other Scriptural issues, the eternal security teachers are oblivious to the two other ways a Christian can lose his salvation besides through sin:

[1] Denying Jesus through persecution

and

[2] Accepting a wrong plan of salvation.

Here are two specific examples of what we are dangerously being taught from eternal security teachers Charles Stanley and David Jeremiah respectively:

No matter what you do as a child of God, you are forgiven.

You say, “Murder?” Forgiven.

“Stealing?” Forgiven.

“Adultery?” Forgiven.

“Worshiping Idols?” Forgiven.

Do you realize that when God forgives you, he forgives your past, your present and your future sin? Some people struggle with that terribly. They think that God only forgives them of all the sin they committed until they were converted. I had a lady tell me one day, she said, “You know, I know my sins were forgiven when I accepted Christ, but I’ve done a lot of other sin. How am I forgiven for that?” Well, you were already forgiven.

If you are a Christian, try to put yourself in their shoes thinking that your future sins are already forgiven before you commit them. If you accepted that premise, then your spiritual guard is not only down it is gone. You won’t ever need to guard against personal sin and its defiling abilities since you are already forgiven. This would mean you will always remain spiritually pure, just as you were the day you were saved, even if you would turn to sexual immorality, drunkenness, thief, idolatry, lying, murder, etc. You would never have to confess those sins to God that you committed after conversion, repent of them, forgive others who sinned against you, etc. to be purified, forgiven and cleansed, since you were never contaminated by any sin after conversion. In contrast, the spiritual danger of failing to do these is clear to anyone who has read through the New Testament with spiritual ears to hear and eyes to see, yet is seemingly hidden from the security-in-sin teachers themselves.

Let me cite some of the reasons why Christians reject the above deplorable teaching as taught by Charles Stanley, David Jeremiah and many others.

The Scriptural Evidence

Please notice what Jesus said to the Christians, after his infinite death on the cross for every person’s sins:

Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. (Rev 3:4)
Comment: All the other people in the church at Sardis did soil their spiritual clothes and were no longer worthy to walk with Jesus dressed in white. How did the majority, who were previously saved, get soiled? The answer is clear when you realize that sin can defile a Christian and even bring him to his spiritual death. That is why we have the following Scripture (among others):
... Do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure. (1 Tim 5:22)

Paul believed Timothy could become spiritually defiled again through sin and consequently told Timothy to keep himself pure. That would be meaningless, if Timothy would turn to sin and automatically be pre-forgiven. Paul (and others) were repeatedly teaching like this, even to the point of telling Christians they could die spiritually through sin and not inherit the kingdom of God:

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live (Rom 8:13)

but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers. (James 1:14-16)

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal 5:19-21)

At this point, I could stop this article, for it has already been proven that sin committed after conversion can defile a Christian, bring him to his spiritual death and cause him not to inherit the kingdom of God. All of that would be impossible if his future sins were already forgiven before they were committed, like these popular savage wolves in sheep’s clothing want us all to believe.

What the Bible teaches about past sins being forgiven at the point of repentance and a submissive faith in Jesus (Acts 20:21 cf. 26:20) is shown in the following Scripture:

But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. (2 Pet 1:9)

That Scripture was written about any person who had been saved, but since has forgotten he was cleansed from his past sin. Please note, a Christian at the point of salvation is cleansed from all his sins up to that moment—his past sins, according to Peter. Similarly, Paul stated below:

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins (Col 2:13)

All our sins were forgiven in a moment’s time when we got born again. If a Christian is afterwards deceived or yields to the devil’s temptations to sin, the following is given as a remedy:

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)

The Apostle John put himself in on that Scripture by using the plural pronoun we. In other words, if we don’t confess those sins to God, which are committed after conversion, then we won’t be purified from their effects. (Apparently, no person who believes what the security-in-sin teachers proclaim about this will confess his sins to God and renounce them to get purified, since he thinks they are already forgiven.)

He who conceals his sins does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy. (Prov 28:13)

There are other indications that a Christian’s future sins are not forgiven and that sin can spiritually defile a believer, even though Jesus died for all sins nearly 2000 years ago:
See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. (Heb 12:15)

Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God. (2 Cor 7:1)

Also, notice the following Scripture which shows that the Apostle Paul knew of some who wandered away from a pure heart. In other words, sin can adversely affect a pure heart. This would be impossible if their future sins were already forgiven:

The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk. (1 Tim 1:5,6)

As Christians, we are also to have a certain frame of mind, a certain type of hope that will purify:

Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure. (1 John 3:2,3)
Jesus taught openly that sin can drag any lustful person to hell:

But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. (Mat 5:28,29)

The Lord also stated the stipulation for a Christian to get his sins forgiven, that is, he must forgive others who sin against him. Such a teaching would be impossible if his future sins were all automatically forgiven even before they were committed. If that was true then there would be no conditions to get forgiven, unlike what Jesus stated:

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. (Mat 6:14,15)
Then the master called the servant in. “You wicked servant,” he said, “I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?” In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart. (Mat 18:32-35)

That is not all we read about a Christian’s sins getting forgiven. The prayer of faith can bring healing to the body, as well as forgiveness of sins:

Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. (James 5:14,15)
Another deathblow to the lie that a Christian’s future sins are already forgiven is the following passage:

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. (Heb 10:26, 27)
Clearly, Heb. 10:26,27 is referring to people who had been converted then decided to deliberately sin in a certain way. Instead of believing the ear-tickling deadly lies of our day, let’s all cleave to the message of the Bible. Among other things it will show us the following, which also would be impossible if a Christian’s future sins were already forgiven:
So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. (2 Pet 3:14)

Being found spotless, blameless and at peace with God is not automatic. Christians under grace are to put forth every effort to remain in this condition:

Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. (Luke 13:24)
Dear reader, don’t let yourself, family or friends be deceived by the eternal security teachers Scriptural distortions. Contend for the faith against their deadly teachings. Souls hang in the balance.

God bless you.

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

Icon 1 posted      Profile for becauseHElives   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Eduardo Grequi consider the wording

quote:
"should not perish BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE."


They should not perish, but if they neglect so Great a Salvation they might

it doesn't say wouldn't perish

Linda, I appreciate that you see that a child of Yahweh can not live like the Devil and still claim to have eternal life, here we stand in total agreement

Anyone that tell someone because they have said a prayer they are saved is a liar and do not have the nature of Yeshua

Yeshua and all the disciples and the Old Testament Saints declare the way of Yahweh to be straight and narrow

But the blind will never see

Yahweh, please open their eyes

In the Name of Yeshua

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AMH
Advanced Member
Member # 4895

Icon 1 posted      Profile for AMH     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Eduardo Grequi wrote-

“Doesnt anyone believe Jesus blood is powerful to cleansed the sins of the past, present and future?

Do you repeatedly nail Jesus to the cross and make Him to be shameful?

Isn't Jesus the author of "ETERNAL SALVATION"?
Isn't Jesus the one who gave "ETERNAL LIFE" if we obey the gospel?”

I am not sure but I think that with the statement-

“Do you repeatedly nail Jesus to the cross and make Him to be shameful?”

Eduardo Grequi is referencing the verse Hebrews 6:6 which reads-

“If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”

Is this a verse that would be used to uphold a belief in “once saved always saved”? I must be mistaken on which verse/verses of the Bible Eduardo is making reference to. It certainly cannot be Hebrews 6:6 which is talking about someone who falls away from the faith, something that a OSAS person cannot do. The only other thing that I can come up with if in fact Eduardo is referencing Hebrews 6:6 is that the verse should be given with an added ellipses so that Hebrews 6:6 would read as follows-

“…seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”

Then we are free to place any idea that we wish in front of the verse.

Excellent!

AMH

Posts: 350 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15

Icon 1 posted      Profile for helpforhomeschoolers   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I believe that the scripture teaches that the Born Again Child of God has eternal security in HIS salvation from the moment of his re-birth. In fact I believe that eternal life begins here in this life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

You are not alone in your beliefs in this matter. I have stayed out of thread out of this thread because the only one I saw speaking that we can lose our salvation was Dale and I also know Dale and Dale's heart is very much concerned for two things - 1. That there are people out their who believe that they are saved and are not and they are in grave danger of hell fire and 2. that there are people who hear OSAS and think this is a liscense to sin and these are not saved either even if they think they are.

I agree with him on both counts and I share his concern in these last days.


The truth is that being eternally secure in Christ is not a license to sin and the true doctrine of Eternal Security does not teach that it is, but it like all things that are of God has been perverted by the enemy.

So, while I chose not to debate my brother on this issue as he knows what I believe and I know what he believes and I respect the heart behind his preaching and see his hearts cry as more important than the fine points of Doctrine that have been debated for a thousand years without resoultion - yes, some one does believe Jesus blood is powerful to cleansed the sins of the past, present and future?

No, I do not repeatedly nail Jesus to the cross and make Him to be shameful?

Yes Jesus is the author and the finisher of our faith and thus the author of "ETERNAL SALVATION"?

And yes, Jesus is the one who gave "ETERNAL LIFE" if we obey the gospel?

But as Dale would point out.... IF we obey the Gospel - we keep his commands. Not so we can be saved by our works, but because we are saved and we love HIM who loved us first.

God Bless you Eduardo!

Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eduardo Grequi
Advanced Member
Member # 3984

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Eduardo Grequi   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Doesnt anyone believe Jesus blood is powerful to cleansed the sins of the past, present and future?

Do you repeatedly nail Jesus to the cross and make Him to be shameful?

Isn't Jesus the author of "ETERNAL SALVATION"?
Isn't Jesus the one who gave "ETERNAL LIFE" if we obey the gospel?

Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eduardo Grequi
Advanced Member
Member # 3984

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Eduardo Grequi   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The question about eternal security is definitely defined in the bible whether you choose to believe it or not!

JOHN 3:16 FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD, THAT HE gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on HIM should not perish BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.

MARK 16: 15 & 16

AND JESUS SAID unto them GO YE INTO ALL THE WORLD, AND PREACH THE GOSPEL TO EVERY CREATURE. He that BELIEVETH and IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE SAVED; BUT HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT shall be damned.


Paul states: (Who is a sinner just like me)

ROMANS 8:35-39

Who shall seperate us from the love of Christ?
shall tribulation
or distress,
or persecution,
or famine,
or nakedness,
or peril,
or sword?
As it is written,For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us.
FOR I AM CONVINCED, that neither DEATH, nor LIFE, nor ANGELS, nor PRINCIPALITIES, nor POWERS, nor THINGS PRESENT, nor THINGS TO COME, nor HEIGHT, nor DEPTH, nor ANY OTHER CREATURE,
SHALL BE ABLE TO SEPERATE US FROM THE LOVE OF GOD, which is in CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD.

Eternal Life isn't eternal if you can loose it!

THE question that should be asked is, "IS my faith a said faith or life changing faith?"

a said faith is A PERSON WHO GOES TO CHURCH on those so called holy days and lives like the devil.

A life changing faith is A PERSON WHO STRIVES TO BE HOLY AND LIVES THEIR LIFE IN THE ATTITUDE OF PRAYER AND SALVATION.

A LIVING FAITH CHANGES THINGS; A SAID FAITH IS SELF-ATTAINED RIGHTEOUSNES. Do you remember the Pharrisees, Saducees, the busy bodies, those who do things repitiously? HOLY ON THE OUT SIDE, BUT evermore wicked on the inside.

JESUS SAVES ONCE AND FOR ALL. IF JESUS' BLOOD IS NOT POWERFUL ENOUGH TO SAVE ONCE AND FOR ALL, THEN HOW RIDICULOUS IS IT TO BELIEVE IN SOMETHING THAT CANN'T HOLD.

HEBREWS 6

1) Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; NOT LAYING AGAIN THE FOUNDATION OF REPENTANCE FROM DEAD WORKS, AND OF FAITH TOWARD GOD,

2) Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands,and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3) And this will we do, if God permit.

4) FOR IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for those who were once enlightened, AND HAVE TASTED of the heavenly gift, AND WERE MADE partakers of the HOLY GHOST,

5) AND HAVE TASTED the good word of GOD, and the powers of the world to come,

6)IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE; seeing THEY CRUCIFY to themselves the SON OF GOD afresh, and put**HIM**
to an open shame.

According to these passages we should know that Jesus has the ability to save once and for all.
Because we are all sinners (ROMANS 3:23;Rom 6:23)
we have recognized our seperation from GOD, Jesus paved the way back, NOT OUR WORKS. THE ONLY SIN THAT WE WILL GO TO HELL FOR IS THIS:

2 THESS 1:8,9
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not GOD, and that OBEY not the gospel of our Lord JESUS CHRIST: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the LORD, and from the glory of His power;

THE SIN OF UNBELIEF SENDS US TO HELL!

EVERYONE MUST BE BAPTIZED TO HAVE THEIR SINS FORGIVEN (ACTS 2:38)

JESUS has set the precedent that ye must BELIEVE and BE BAPTIZED to be saved!

DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE POWER OF JESUS TO SAVE YOU PERMANTLY? Or Is He just another man!!!!!

IT WOULDN'T BE ETERNAL LIFE if you could loose it!

HEBREWS 5:5-11
So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him:
"YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"Ps 2:7
As He also says in another place:
"YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK" Ps 110:4
who , in the days of His flesh, when He offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. And having been perfected, He became the author of ETERNAL SALVATION to all who obey Him, called by God as High Priest "according to the order of Melchizedek," of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you become dull of hearing.

JESUS GIVES ETERNAL SALVATION not salvation that is lost!
JESUS GIVES ETERNAL LIFE not life that is lost!
JESUS IS THE WAY AND NOT ANY MAN, DOCTRINE PERCEVIED OR OTHERWISE STATED!

JESUS SAID THOSE WHO BELIEVED AND ARE BAPTIZED ARE SAVED!!!!!

Always in Christ,

Eduardo

Psalms 118:17

Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

Icon 1 posted      Profile for becauseHElives   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hey Miguel,
"IF" you chose to sin willfully after comeing to the Lord Yeshua for forgiveness and then as the Holy Spirit tries to get you to repent and you refuse to repent,

you better know one thing you will die in that sin and not make heaven your Kingdom residence.

Hell is a long time

Don't get it wrong

Not only will it cause you to live in hell for eternity, but you may cause someone else to spend eternity there.

If getting saved means I can live a life of sin with no repentnce after I am saved.

We have no need for all the instrution on how we should now live since we have made Yeshua "Lord"?

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
peh
Advanced Member
Member # 4446

Icon 1 posted      Profile for peh     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
bygrace, I haven't had time to read all the posts on this thread since I read this statement of yours:
quote:
James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26)
To which I would say a hearty amen. Well stated. I would add just one more point and that is probably stated elsewhere on this thread but can't hurt to be posted again:

The changed life and good works are both whollythe work of God within us. Our faith doesn't change our lives, that is, give us the strength of will to live godly lives, else Jesus need not have died. We could all just believe in Him as existant and follow His example of a perfect life. I like the way Phil 2:13 puts it "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

I could post more Scripture to state the point in further Biblical terms, but for now I'll leave this with you: Good works are, I believe Scripture proves, an outcropping of the Holy Spirit's working out in us, giving us eyes to see the need, and a heart for the work, as well as sharing the mind of Christ with His followers.

--------------------
St. Peh
I don't know everything but I know the One Who does.

Posts: 255 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47

Icon 15 posted      Profile for Miguel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If Audio pronunciation of "if" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (f)
Conj.

1.
1. In the event that: If I were to go, I would be late.
2. Granting that: If that is true, what should we do?
3. On the condition that: She will play the piano only if she is paid.
2. Although possibly; even though: It is a handsome if useless trinket.
3. Whether: Ask if he plans to come to the meeting.
4. Used to introduce an exclamatory clause, indicating a wish: If they had only come earlier!


N.

A possibility, condition, or stipulation: There will be no ifs, ands, or buts in this matter.

Let me present something unto you.

It is Monday morning and you are running late for work and you know you cant make it and decided to call and tell Jim your boss that you are running late and you “might” be in later. Few hours later administration call Jim to ask about you and Jim tells them that you might come late. But Jim call Linda in the inspection department that if you where to come in Jim will send you in for final approval to the material that just got in. If you were unable to be at work today would lose your job?

Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

--------------------
Romans 9:11-24

Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!

Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

Icon 18 posted      Profile for becauseHElives   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Linda blessing to you and yours,

Amen, your refference

2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

there is that great big word with such great implication for the follower of Yeshua. "IF"

IF you do these things, you will not fall

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15

Icon 1 posted      Profile for helpforhomeschoolers   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Dale you know that I do not agree with you on the issue of eternal security for the born again child of God.... but I believe this today more than I have ever believed it.

quote:
Satan's master plan is to make people believe they are saved when in reality they are still lost
Amen!


2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

Icon 18 posted      Profile for becauseHElives   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hello Miguel,

I am not talking about mans ability to save himself. I am talking about

Yeilding ownership, you are bought with a price, you are no longer your own. I am talking about did Yeshua get all HE purchased when HE purchased you. I am talking about taking up your cross daily. Or did not Yeshua say that.

Are you trying to tell me you can be a Christian and not a disiple????

Are you telling me I can have unforgiveness toward any an still be saved???

If so then what was Yeshua talking about forgiveness, in the Lord's Prayer and the story about the man that owed the great debt???

Is the Great Debt is not talking about mine and your sins that we can not pay???

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

but according to his own purpose and grace,

get this part clear

according to HIS own Purpose

and

according to HIS Grace

HIS Purpose "to conform all that believe into the image of HIS Son Yeshua"

HIS Grace "Yaweh's power and ability, the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life;" (Strong's 5463)

You cannot afford to make a mistake about Salvation. Your soul is too valuable, the lake of fire is too final and eternity is too long to be wrong.

Satan's master plan is to make people believe they are saved when in reality they are still lost. His plan is sly, crafty and deceptive. His timing is just perfect. The name of his counterfeit is called EASY BELIEVISM.

Approximately ninety five percent of all Protestant churches now accept it and most evangelical tract companies print it as being gospel truth. It has swept upon our land at a time when the cry of the masses is, "We like it easy and comfortable". A person can become a millionaire overnight by inventing a gadget that will make a hard job easy or an easy job easier. You can see this principle revealed in the success of perma-press clothes, micro-wave ovens, electric door openers, automatic dishwashers and electric knives. Everyone is crying, "Make it easy brother".

Satan designed his plan to include parts of the Bible which would add reverence and credibility to his counterfeit and at the same time twist the truths and change the words to produce a subtle half-truth which is more dangerous than an outright lie. only the TRUTH, the WHOLE TRUTH, and NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH will save a man or woman from sin.

Is a person saved by simply and only believing on the Lord Jesus Christ as his personal Savior? Many churches now teach that a person is ready to meet the Lord in the second coming simply because they raised their hand and vocalized the phrase "I do now accept Christ as my personal Savior".

This plan is simple, easy, soothing, mild, and effortless, but OH ... So FALSE! Ministers will be judged by God on the grounds of criminal negligence who allow their church members to continue in their sinful habits and at the same time believe they are gloriously saved. Saved from W H A T???

This plan is simple, easy, soothing, mild, and effortless, but OH ... So FALSE! Ministers will be judged by God on the grounds of criminal negligence who allow their church members to continue in their sinful habits and at the same time believe they are gloriously saved. Saved from W H A T???

There is more to being saved than EASY BELIEVISM -please notice Acts 16:31 very closely. And they said "... thou shalt be (future tense) saved..." The Apostle Paul used the future tense, shalt be, which places the act or event in the future. Notice, he did not say, "Believe on the Lord Jesus and thou art saved", like so many do today. It takes more to being saved than saying "I believe". James 2:14 teaches that faith alone can not save. "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith and have not works?

Can Faith Save Him?.

James 2:20 declares, "Faith without works is dead". You do not have faith if you do not have works. Faith without works is dead. It can not save you if it is alone. Works are proof of faith. If works prove faith, then the absence of works prove unbelief. Yes, faith is necessary to be saved, but it takes more than just faith.

"For by GRACE you have been saved through FAITH; and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God; not as result of WORKS, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for GOOD WORKS, which God PREPARED BEFOREHAND so that we would WALK IN THEM." (Ephesians 2:8-10}

Saved by Grace through Faith

Salvation is not in our ability, to be good enough or to work hard enough, but in the desire of the converted heart of a believer to walk humbly before a HOLY, PURE, RIGHTEOUS, LOVING GOD and FATHER, who takes pleasure in them that fear HIM, in those that hope in HIS MERCY.


Hebrews 11:1-2

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for (salvation thru the Blood of Yeshua), the evidence ( "Grace" the fruit produced by the life of the Spirit of Yahweh in the believer) of things (Salvation) not yet seen. For by it (their fruit, "Grace" action) the elders obtained a good report.

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47

Icon 15 posted      Profile for Miguel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Deuteronomy 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Christ must give us eyes to see and ears to hear and a heart to perceive:

--------------------
Romans 9:11-24

Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!

Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47

Icon 16 posted      Profile for Miguel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ended it is odious unto man for it takes way the glory of salvation that only belongs unto God and not the actions of a deprave man. Yes it is odious unto man. If thou sayest the bible is the word of God, then believed that it is Him that begins and ends thou salvation. Believeth thou this!

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

--------------------
Romans 9:11-24

Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!

Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

Icon 18 posted      Profile for becauseHElives   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
“Once Saved, Always Saved” is the most damnable doctrine ever taught by men.

You have to exclude to much Scripture to get that teaching.

How many here know the story that Yeshua taught on the man that owed a great debt.

Yeshua said this one man owed the King a great debt. In our terms 1 million dollars.

King calls him in and wants his money, but the man can not pay. (This is a picture of our sin before Yeshua‘s Blood)

King says throw him, in prison. (This is Yahweh’s judgment on all without the Blood of Yeshua)

But the man cries for mercy and the Kings forgives the entire debt. (This is every sinner saved by Grace that is looking to the Blood)

But now this forgiven man goes out and finds his fellow servant that owes him $ 150 dollars and demand payment. When his servant can not pay him he begins to beat him and demand payment and as the fellow servant cries the 1st servant that has been forgiven his debt will not forgive. (The scriptures say with what measure of forgiveness you give to other it will be given back to you)

Now the King hears all that has happened, and has this 1st servant brought before him. He had been forgiven, he had received Salvation, but now because of his actions the King resends his first decree and throws this unforgiving man into prison ((into hell)

Lord’s Prayer teaches us “forgive us our debts as we forgive others their debts against us”

! John tells us that after we have come to the knowledge of the forgiveness of sin through the Blood, we should not sin any more, but it goes onto say but if you do sin after you have come to the knowledge of Salvation through the Blood, if you confess that sin he is Faithful and Just to cleanse you again and again, and again and …….

You can not get saved and lost and saved and lost and saved and lost….

You get saved and hold on to HIM, Look daily to HIM for every need, look to HIM for every victory, look to HIM at every defeat.

HE is the author and finisher of your Salvation.

But Salvation is a daily choice

You choose daily to pick up your cross and follow Yeshua

You are not robots

You will have your will to the day you die,

You chose to forgive or not to forgive

If you don’t forgive , you will not be forgiven.

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Miguel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
1 Corinthians 3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual, but as to carnal, even as to babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for until now you were not able to bear it, neither yet are you now able.

Miguel, note that Paul calls them brethren and babes in Christ. At the very least, my housemate would have been a babe in Christ IF he believed what he was reading?

Now, admittedly, I did not know him well when he was reading the Bible five times, and it may well be that eventhough he read it five times, it may well be that he was never able to mix faith with his reading:

Hebrews 4:2
For unto us also was the gospel preached, as well as to them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them who heard it.

So we may presumably be able to say that he had never mixed faith with it, but what if he did believe it for a time?

The next question would be, Is it possible to believe the gospel for a time and then to unbelieve it?

Certainly the experience of Old Israel was that they believed the LORD God of Israel for many years, but afterwards they abandoned the LORD and wanted an earthly king and began to worhip Baal and the golden calves of Jeroboam I.

They quit believing in the LORD and the Lord cut them out of the good olive tree:

Romans 11
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted back in: for God is able to graff them in again.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Be not highminded, but fear.

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not you.

From this I deduce that God will cut off who does not remain in belief. Right now we are in because we have faith, meaning we belief what God has said.

But if we like many Old Israelites alsto stop believing, then we too will be cut off again.

God bless, [Cross] BORN AGAIN

BA while reading my short devotional the lesson was "His faithfulness" and on this is where our assurence is. Remember that our fruits of righteousness and works are the evidence of been born again from above.

Remember the ocation in the wilderness? For 40 years! Not even one was saved they all died only Caleb and Joshua where! Whas that and ujustice in Gods part! Is amazing that not even one have faith on their on! Why? Because it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth,but of God that sheweth mercy.


God's Faithfulness and His Promises

Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. (Heb_10:23)
Previously, we reflected upon God's ability in conjunction with His promises. When promises are made, the capability of the one making promises is strategic. When relating God's ability to His promises, we have full assurance that He can fulfill what He has promised to do. "Ah, Lord God! Behold, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and outstretched arm. There is nothing too hard for You . . . Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for Me?" (Jer_32:17, Jer_32:27). Our Lord created all the universe, and He is ruler over all of humanity. Surely, He is able to fulfill all of His promises.
Now, we have another issue to consider: faithfulness. When promises are made, faithfulness is just as important as ability. It is vital to know that the one promising is not only able, but is also reliable. In our present verse, we are given reason to exercise unwavering confidence in God, based upon His faithfulness. "Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful."
In the book of Hebrews, we are given a recurring call to stand firm in the hope of the Lord. To increasingly participate in the reality of being God's spiritual household here on earth, we are to confidently embrace throughout our pilgrimage the hope that is available in our Lord: "whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end" (Heb_3:6). To fully partake of all that is ours in Christ, we are to persistently cling to Him by faith right up to our last days on earth. "For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end" (Heb_3:14).
Our present verse also stresses persistent faith in the hope of the Lord. "Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering." Additionally, this persistence of trust in God is related to His promises and His faithfulness. "For He who promised is faithful." We can cling tightly to the promises of God. We can confidently hope in God fulfilling His promises to us. We do not need to waver in doubt, because God is reliable. He is trustworthy. He is faithful.

--------------------
Romans 9:11-24

Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!

Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
EMoor
Community Member
Member # 4880

Icon 21 posted      Profile for EMoor     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Grace,

Thankyou!! That is my point!! When Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be in paradise with him that very day, I have no reason to doubt that he wasn't, because Jesus knew the mans heart. When someone is on their deathbed and they repent, we don't know if they were saved, but Jesus knows their heart too, and if their repentance is genuine, he knows, and the same holds true if it isn't genuine.

Eric

--------------------
As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Posts: 9 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
bygrace
Advanced Member
Member # 4847

Icon 1 posted      Profile for bygrace     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Mary,

he stated that he doesn't believe in works for salvation.

What he is saying is those that profess christianity then go on to live a life in total contradiction of the christian life their conversion is put into question.

I think what he is saying is that some think that recital of a prayer saves them, when in fact there must be true repentance to go along.

Someone on their deathbed that receives Christ- we will never know how true their repentance was since there was no time to observe the actions behind the decision.

That does not mean that they are not saved, it is just that (we) won't ever see the fruits of christianity in them.

I do believe someone can get saved on their deathbed, I do not know their heart- and how sorry they are for their life without Christ.

It is just that when there is time to SEE some change in a professing Christian - it is easier to make the call.

I do not believe that everyone who "recites" a sinner's prayer is indeed a child of God. Many have been led down the road of easy-believism.

Example-in Rick warren's book - The Purpose Driven life- He states "just Believe and Receive "
This is misleading at best.

We must do more than "receive and Believe" we must REPENT and have genuine remorse for our fallen state and the sins against God.

maybe there is just a misunderstanding in the communication here. I see his point and I see yours. I thought at first he was saying works plus faith, but upon re-examination I see that is not what he was talking about.

Salvation is indeed faith based and no works will do it, But - works are the proof that you have salvation.

[type]

bygrace

Posts: 162 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator



This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | Christian Visual Media | Privacy Statement



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0