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Author Topic: once saved...always saved?
IAAFOTL
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That message was very well done. Amen!


quote:
Originally posted by David:
A person is not saved by just saying they are. The bible says they must be born-again. If one is born-again the bible tells you how you can tell. YES they will change more and more to be like Jesus Christ.

So the questions is, are you saved? Are you born-again. If you are you will will change and product the fruit of a person that is born-again. If you still live a worldly life and think just because you said a prayer or mouthed a few words but never come to know Jesus Christ - you were never born-again and are still in a lost condition.

So if you are truely saved and have been born again you will love the Lord Jesus Christ and you will act like it. There is no EASY BUTTON you can push to be saved. It is a life time commentment.

Listen to the message on this web page if you want to know the truth. To play a push button,Easy Believeism game with God is not how I would want to die and hope I might be saved. Get to know Jesus Christ and serve Him and you will not have to guess or hope. You MUST BE BORN AGAIN.

http://audiosermonindex.com/members/html/modules/mylinks/viewcat.php?op=&cid=67



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EastBank1980
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QUOTE]If we do nothing more than go to the altar, if we don't study God's word, if we don't use our spiritual gifts that we all have, if we continue to deliberatley live a sinful life, than I believe that there will be no salvation.[/QUOTE]

If fellow brothers and sisters in Christ also do nothing to help grow this new Christian spiritually then we have failed.

I believe it is up to all to disciple those who have accepted Christ. True it is also up to the person saved that they should seek out God's wisdom and the Holy Spirit but we all play a part in the discipleship of those new to Christ, do we not?

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oneinchrist
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Hi Rogg,
Im a little confused about your reply to my post. I am agreeing with BecauseHeLives that God is the one who judges whether or not we will be saved. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with something I said in my post?...if so, could you please be more specific. Sometimes we find that we dont disagree, but that we are just looking at the same issue from a different angle. Nice to meet you.

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KnowHim
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A person is not saved by just saying they are. The bible says they must be born-again. If one is born-again the bible tells you how you can tell. YES they will change more and more to be like Jesus Christ.

So the questions is, are you saved? Are you born-again. If you are you will will change and product the fruit of a person that is born-again. If you still live a worldly life and think just because you said a prayer or mouthed a few words but never come to know Jesus Christ - you were never born-again and are still in a lost condition.

So if you are truely saved and have been born again you will love the Lord Jesus Christ and you will act like it. There is no EASY BUTTON you can push to be saved. It is a life time commentment.

Listen to the message on this web page if you want to know the truth. To play a push button,Easy Believeism game with God is not how I would want to die and hope I might be saved. Get to know Jesus Christ and serve Him and you will not have to guess or hope. You MUST BE BORN AGAIN.

http://audiosermonindex.com/members/html/modules/mylinks/viewcat.php?op=&cid=67

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Good NewsforAll
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quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
I still don't know if you can lose your salvation, but why take a chance. If we want to have a relationship with God, we must communicate with God. It is so much better to live as close to God as possible and not be trying to see how much we can get away with and still be saved.

Amen! It would be a shame to "miss it." If we don't strive to be more and more sanctified, the devil will be right there ready to totally mess up our lives.

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becauseHElives
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Amen Rogg….
quote:
If we fulfill the requirements for salvation, we will be saved, if we fulfill the requirements to loose our salvation, likewise.
But it is up to us, the Lord forces nobody to serve him.

If I have been given a free gift, it doesn’t matter what the free gift is. If I decide I don’t want it any longer and can’t give it back, it becomes a gift that is forced upon my free will.

Yahweh doesn’t want any to perish; He established the price and then freely paid the price. Giving it freely to any and all that would freely choice to accept it.

To give back such a gift as “free salvation” would truly be an act of stupidity but we are dealing with humanity and men and women do some stupid stuff.

Esau had the birth right, but gave it away, then wept over his stupidity but found no place of repentance.

Yahweh’s not going to force anyone to keep a free gift they decide to give back or throw away.

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Rogg
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Along the lines of what you were just saying in your post BecauseHeLives, I have often pondered this thought.....


If a person could be saved and then unsaved, wouldnt that be questioning Gods ability to make a righteous judgement? Like as if God became confused and changed His mind.

How could the Lord know you would loose your salvation unless you were saved first?
Just like, how could God know man would rebel against him unless he created man.
God cannot know something from nothing.
I have heard the argument, if God knew man would rebel, why did he create them, well, thats how he knew they would rebel, because he created mankind.
Its not judgment on Gods part it is judgment on our part.
If we fulfill the requirements for salvation, we will be saved, if we fulfill the requirements to loose our salvation, likewise.
But it is up to us, the Lord forces nobody to serve him.

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oneinchrist
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Along the lines of what you were just saying in your post BecauseHeLives, I have often pondered this thought.....


If a person could be saved and then unsaved, wouldnt that be questioning Gods ability to make a righteous judgement? Like as if God became confused and changed His mind.

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becauseHElives
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Love you all, and you know when it come right down to it Yahweh is the only Judgment that will count whether someone is saved or not.

And we should never make anyone feel good about sin in any form in their life.

Yahweh has given each one that is a believer, the responsibility to provoke one another to good works not anything to the contrary.

But if something that doesn’t look like a duck, doesn’t walk like a duck, and quake like a duck but tries to convince me it is a duck I do not believe it is a duck!

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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We who believe in the eternal security of the believer, believe that those who have by faith trusted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are eternally secure and can never lose their salvation. We further
believe it is the privilege of all believers to be assured of their salvation; that
this assurance rests not in themselves, but in the promises of God; that the
Scriptures teach that such as are truly regenerate, being born of the Spirit,
will not utterly fall away and finally perish, but are kept by the power of God
unto the day of salvation. We also believe that the doctrine of eternal
security should lead to a life of love, gratitude and obedience to God.

John 6:39;
39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


John 10:27-29;
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


Philippians 1:6;
6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:


I Peter 1:3-5;
3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

I John 2:19;
19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Romans 11:29.
29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


Being good enough—being free from bad habits and bad behavior, earning enough "points" on the ledger of good behavior—is not what brings about a new spiritual birth in a person. Salvation is solely a matter of believing in Jesus. The repentance and change of behavior come later as the Holy Spirit prompts it, and also as Holy Spirit helps a person to accomplish it! It is vitally important for you at this point to come to this understanding: Nothing you do apart from believing in Jesus Christ causes you to be saved. When you believe, the Spirit enters into you and causes your old sin nature to be transformed into a new nature that is in the likeness of God. The transformation of your spirit is a sovereign work of God; you cannot do it on your own, achieve it through your will or behavior, force it to happen by any other means than believing.

If you believe that your salvation came about by anything other than simply believing in what Jesus Christ did for you on the cross, then you believe that your salvation was in some way related to your own will and to your own works. If you believe that your salvation is related to your will and your works, then you will believe that your will and your works can in some way "undo" or negate your salvation.
On the other hand, if you believe that your salvation was based solely on what Jesus did for you and what the Holy Spirit has done in you, then you believe that your salvation was a sovereign work of God. Your part was simply to believe and receive what God provided and what God promised. The person who believes this must therefore conclude that since he did absolutely nothing to transform his old sin nature into a new spiritual nature, he cannot do anything to cause his new spiritual nature to revert to his old nature.



2 Cor. 1:
21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
23 Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth.
24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

2 Cor. 5:
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

Eph. 1:
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


Earnest:

Strong's Number: 728 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
ajrrabwvn of Hebrew origin (06162)

Transliterated Word TDNT Entry

Arrhabon 1:475,80
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ar-hrab-ohn'
Noun Masculine
Definition
1. an earnest
a. money which in purchases is given as a pledge or downpayment that the full amount will subsequently be paid
John Gills exposition of 2 Cor. 1:22

John Gill's Exposition of the Bible
2 Corinthians 1:22
Who hath also sealed us?

"Two" things more are here attributed to God; "first", the sealing of his people. The use of seals is various, as to denote property in things, to distinguish one thing from another, to show esteem and affection for persons or things, and for security and protection, and to hide and conceal; all which might be applied to sealing, as expressive of the grace of God to his people, in claiming a property in them, distinguishing them from the rest of the world, setting his affections on them, securing and protecting their persons, and hiding them under the shadow of his wings: but sometimes a seal is used to certify, make sure, or assure the truth of a thing; see (John 3:33) (1 Corinthians 9:3) (Jeremiah 33:10) in which sense the word "sealing" is used here, and intends that assurance which God gives his people of their interest in his love, and the covenant of grace; of their election of God, and redemption by Christ; of their interest in Christ, and union with him; of their justification by him, and adoption through him; of the truth of grace in their hearts, their perseverance in it, and sure and certain enjoyment of eternal glory. The persons thus sealed are not carnal and unconverted persons, only believers in Christ, and these, after they commence such; the seal by which they are sealed, is not any of the ordinances, as circumcision under the Old Testament, or baptism, or the Lord's supper under the New; for these are no seals, nor are they ever so called; but the Spirit of God himself, as the Holy Spirit of promise; for the same who, in the next clause, is called the earnest, is the seal; see (Ephesians 1:13) .

"Secondly", the giving of the earnest of the Spirit:

and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts:

by "the Spirit" is meant, not the gifts and graces of the Spirit merely, but the Spirit of God and Christ himself; who was concerned in the creation of the world, in inditing the Scriptures, in forming and filling the human nature of Christ, and in his resurrection from the dead; he himself is given as an "earnest": the word (arrabwn) , here used, and in (2 Corinthians 5:5) (Ephesians 1:14) is the Hebrew word (Nwbre) , and comes from (bre) , which signifies "to become a surety, to give a pledge"; and is used for a pledge in covenants and bargains, both in Scripture, see (Genesis 38:17,18,20) , and in Jewish writings F4; which is given as an earnest, and in part of what it is a pledge of, and is never returned: the Spirit of God is an earnest or pledge of the heavenly inheritance, which is not only prepared for us, and promised to us, and Christ is in the possession of in our nature, in our room and stead, and as our representative; but the Spirit of God also is sent down "into our hearts" as a pledge of it; where he dwells as in his temple, supplies us with all grace, witnesses to us our sonship, and assures us of the heavenly glory: and as such he is "given"; and an unmerited free grace gift he is; for him to be given in this manner, and for such a purpose, is a wonderful display of the love of the Father, and of the Son, and is a surprising instance of his grace and condescension of the Spirit, and for which we should be abundantly thankful.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Believer has the absolute irrevocable guarantee from God of eternal redemption through the very indwelling presence of God the Holy Spirit. It is our seal that we ARE His for eternity.

Surety:

2 a : a formal engagement (as a pledge) given for the fulfillment of an undertaking : GUARANTEE b : a basis of confidence or security

Main Entry: 3earnest
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English ernes, ernest, from Anglo-French arres, erres, plural of erre earnest, from Latin arra, short for arrabo, from Greek arrhabOn, of Semitic origin; akin to Hebrew 'ErAbhOn pledge
1 : something of value given by a buyer to a seller to bind a bargain
2 : a token of what is to come : PLEDGE

It is within the heart of the Believer that the Holy Spirit produces spiritual fruit, and this fruit is evidence of the sealing of the Believer which has taken place.

A fruit of the Spirit is faith, and it is this faith by which we are saved.

Ephesians 2:
8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Galations 5:
22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

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16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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powerhouse
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I think I quoted this before, but a wise man once told me that the mercies of God are great... but one shouldn't want to try to push to see exactly how far they go...

Or, some words to that effect...

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TEXASGRANDMA
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oneinchrist


Nice to meet you, too. I am a grandmother of two and mom to two kids. I live in Washington State but still a Texan. Hope we get to talk often.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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IAAFOTL
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Hi becauseHElives :-)

I think he was referring to the legal rights satan has over us before we are redeemed.

But Amen on the post!

Have a safe trip wherever you are going for the rest of the week!

[wave3]

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Aaron, the enemy does not have legal right to enslave us with sinfulness and a sinful mind but the enemy has what rights you choose to surrender to him.

Remember Yeshua not only spoke of the entrance (the straight gate) but He also spoke of the narrow path (complete trust in Him).

Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed me: Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite, and Joshua the son of Nun: for they have wholly followed the Lord. And the Lord’s anger was kindled against Israel, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the Lord, was consumed” (Numbers 32: 11,13; also Psalm 95: 8-11).

I don't have time to finish developing this I have to leave for the rest of the week...

i hope you can follow my thought...

see you all soon
Yahweh Bless
Dale



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IAAFOTL
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amen [thumbsup2]

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
in response to Texas Grandma:
Hi, its nice to meet you. I read your post above and I am grateful for your good advice. I totally agree with the concept of "why take the chance?" that you brought up...its a reality check for all of us and it should keep us from harmful debate. Praise God.



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IAAFOTL
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Dear Brian,

Thank you for taking the time to read it, and God bless you.

Although I don't agree with you that it isn't important I do agree that I don't want to argue about it, as that isn't going to help anyone and it isn't going to bring glory to God.

If you do want more Scriptures though, I can provide you with more to take a look at.

I think what is most important is that you do know that it isn't a light thing and that the cost to Jesus was high and so is the cost of obedience, as the flesh has to be put to death, as there is a war within us.

Paul is transparent with his struggle in Romans chapter 7, but he overcomes by the power of the Holy Spirit and masters his flesh and is walking after the spirit in chapter 8.


God bless you brother.

[Cross]

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oneinchrist
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in response to Texas Grandma:
Hi, its nice to meet you. I read your post above and I am grateful for your good advice. I totally agree with the concept of "why take the chance?" that you brought up...its a reality check for all of us and it should keep us from harmful debate. Praise God.

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BrianGrass1234
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In response to IAAFOTL:

I didn't see where those scriptures were in conflict with my post. Maybe you can point it out for me.

I also read the link you gave, although quickly, and although there are some scriptures that you could use to argue that the truly saved can loose their salvation, I think you could argue the other point of view with the same scripture as well.

I do have a question though, one of the verses sited in the link you gave, Hebrews 6:4-6, basically is saying, if you using to support that the saved can loose their salvation, that if your saved, and fall away, you can't get your salvation back. How long do we have then after we sin to ask for forgiveness? Or how many sins in a row qualifies us for falling away?


I really don't want to argue because I think its really not that important. Like I said the message needs to be self examination, not "I can sin all I want because I'm saved," and also not scarring young christians into being unproductive because with every bad thought their going to hell. I also think these lines of thinking drives a wedge. The anti OSAS crowd usually gets a sense of superiority over those backsliders and the gossip gets going. Then the OSAS crowd who is having a hard time, usually young christians, rebels against the legalism of the "you sinners have lost your salvation" crowd and fall further away and don't come to church anymore. So if they really weren't saved in the first place, they really aren't going to be saved now.

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TEXASGRANDMA
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I think this issue can be taken to extreme on both sides. I was raised in the Assembly of God Church where we were taught you could lose our salvation.
As a kid and teenager we went up for salvation every year at Church camp and every revival. We were terrified that every bad word we said or every lie we told was going to make us lose our salvation.
I am now Baptist and sometimes they go the other extreme.
The Bible does say to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. I no longer believe you have to get saved every service, but we need to stay close to the source (the Holy Spirit) and guard our soul from attacks from the devil. Run from evil and don't invite it into your home or your life. Stay in the Word of God and pray every day.
I still don't know if you can lose your salvation, but why take a chance. If we want to have a relationship with God, we must communicate with God. It is so much better to live as close to God as possible and not be trying to see how much we can get away with and still be saved.

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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IAAFOTL
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The Bible does not teach that in most cases it is a matter of one never being saved in the first place, that they fall away. There is one Scripture, but only one that I am aware of that says that 'those that left us were not of us', in 1 John, but there are many many many many Scriptures that teach that we can indeed forfeit our salvation. That we can be saved, and then forfeit our gift. Much of the reason is the same reason why God says the people perish. For lack of knowledge. Which I believe is due to false teaching and faith in a false sense of security based on lies and not the Bible security a believer can truly have, because they didn't take the time to read the Word themselves and check out what they were being taught. We should always see if what we are being taught aligns with what the Word says. Test the spirits and see if they be of God. (this includes anything I say too!)

Because they will not teach contrare to the Word of God if they are of God and they will not use one Scripture to back up their claim, while ignoring 50. (ratio for making the point only, not an actual statistic)
Remember that Satan used Scripture to try to deceive Jesus, so just because they whip out Scripture does not mean what they are teaching is true!

That is called deception and not counseling the whole Word of God, and not rightly discerning His Word of Truth. How many times does Jesus say "do not be deceived?" There is a reason for that!

For a brief teaching see Romans 8:11-13
and John 15:1-6

For a more extensive look at what the Bible truly teaches, please see my first post in this thread and follow the link to "The Danger of the False Teaching of OSAS" Actually here is a link for you
Click Here


God bless you brother!


quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
I think once your saved, your saved. I also think that if pray a prayer and get some happy feelings, and act like a christian because you like the feelings, doesn't mean the neccessarily you did the whole believing in your heart part. I think when stuff gets tough and temptation hits and you fail. Thats when you need to examine yourself to see if you did both confessing with your mouth and believed in your heart, you then repent for that sin and try to not to again. Its not that because you sinned you lost your salvation, and its not because you repented from that sin you got your salvation, but its because you believed in your heart as well as confessed with your mouth.

If your feelings go, you get tempted, then fail and you do not repent and continue to sin. I really think you didn't do the whole believing in your heart part and weren't saved in the first place. The real salvation won't be found till you realize that you need to repent and change because its right, not because of good feelings then you've now believed in your heart.

This is something that everyone needs to examine in their own hearts for their own assurance of salvation. If your not examining yourself daily to make sure you have a repentant heart and truly believe, you might not have been saved in the first place because I believe the Holy Spirit is tugging at us constantly to evaluate ourselves.

Anyway I don't think the message should be telling everyone that if they prayed a prayer their saved and can forget about God. I also don't think putting the fear that if they get hit by a bus while lusting after the girl walking down the street, their going to hell is good either. I think the message should be that we always need to be testing ourselves against what the Bible says and what the Holy Spirit is telling use to make sure our hearts and minds are in the right place.



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BrianGrass1234
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I think once your saved, your saved. I also think that if pray a prayer and get some happy feelings, and act like a christian because you like the feelings, doesn't mean the neccessarily you did the whole believing in your heart part. I think when stuff gets tough and temptation hits and you fail. Thats when you need to examine yourself to see if you did both confessing with your mouth and believed in your heart, you then repent for that sin and try to not to again. Its not that because you sinned you lost your salvation, and its not because you repented from that sin you got your salvation, but its because you believed in your heart as well as confessed with your mouth.

If your feelings go, you get tempted, then fail and you do not repent and continue to sin. I really think you didn't do the whole believing in your heart part and weren't saved in the first place. The real salvation won't be found till you realize that you need to repent and change because its right, not because of good feelings then you've now believed in your heart.

This is something that everyone needs to examine in their own hearts for their own assurance of salvation. If your not examining yourself daily to make sure you have a repentant heart and truly believe, you might not have been saved in the first place because I believe the Holy Spirit is tugging at us constantly to evaluate ourselves.

Anyway I don't think the message should be telling everyone that if they prayed a prayer their saved and can forget about God. I also don't think putting the fear that if they get hit by a bus while lusting after the girl walking down the street, their going to hell is good either. I think the message should be that we always need to be testing ourselves against what the Bible says and what the Holy Spirit is telling use to make sure our hearts and minds are in the right place.

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IAAFOTL
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Amen. Being a Christian is not up to our personal definitions, but the definitions set forth by Christ personally and through His Apostles in the Word of God. Many people just like the unlearned sinner, compare themselves to others (sinners to the rest of the world, and "Christians" to other "Christians").

But Christ said in Luke 6:46. "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"

and in Matthew 7:20-23

"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

And in Revelation 3:5

"He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

Jesus is not looking to see how we measure up compared to one another, but how we measure according to His Word. Have we looked on the blood lightly? Treat it as an unholy and little thing?
Have we trampled under our feet the Son of God?
Making His sacrifice of no effect?

If so, do we think we are going to hear the master say, "Well done thou good and faithful servant, enter into my rest"? or "Flee from me, you worker of iniquity, I never knew you"?

The Word of God says that WIDE is the path that leads to destruction, and there are many that go in thereat and NARROW is the way that leads unto life and there are few that find it. Matthew 7:13-15


quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Born again is a word sometimes used so often that it is thought to be a new religion. I decided to look it up in the Wycliffe Bible Dictionary and the definition was quite elaborate. The definition included a section that was called "The tests of the new birth"..and it says.....
One reason men have sometimes ignored the doctrine of the new birth is that they have overlooked the fact it is set forth not only in John 3 but also in 1 John. In Johns epistle he goes into the matter of the new birth more fully, giving the marks or proofs whereby a man may know whether he has been born again. (1) Such a one does not practice sin (1 Jn 3:9; 5:18). (2) He has true christian love towards others (4:7, 20 cf. 3:14-15), particulary towards other christians (5:1. (3) He loves God and keeps His commandments (5:2-3). (4) He overcomes the world, that is, lives a victorious christian life (5:4-5). When these proofs are missing, either the person is only a nominal christian and not really saved, or he is a christian who is living a defeated, disobedient life. See New Birth; Regeneration.



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Study to show yourself approved, a workman unto God who needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
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oneinchrist
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Born again is a word sometimes used so often that it is thought to be a new religion. I decided to look it up in the Wycliffe Bible Dictionary and the definition was quite elaborate. The definition included a section that was called "The tests of the new birth"..and it says.....
One reason men have sometimes ignored the doctrine of the new birth is that they have overlooked the fact it is set forth not only in John 3 but also in 1 John. In Johns epistle he goes into the matter of the new birth more fully, giving the marks or proofs whereby a man may know whether he has been born again. (1) Such a one does not practice sin (1 Jn 3:9; 5:18). (2) He has true christian love towards others (4:7, 20 cf. 3:14-15), particulary towards other christians (5:1. (3) He loves God and keeps His commandments (5:2-3). (4) He overcomes the world, that is, lives a victorious christian life (5:4-5). When these proofs are missing, either the person is only a nominal christian and not really saved, or he is a christian who is living a defeated, disobedient life. See New Birth; Regeneration.

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Rogg
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John 3:3
3.Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."


2 Corinthians 5:17
17.Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.


Romans 10:8-10
8.But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9.that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10.For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I can only go by my experience and what others I know have experienced.
It is so much more than a feeling or an emotion, it is a dramatic life change, you literally become a new creation in an instant.

After you ask Jesus to come into your heart and open your eyes, even if you are neutral, and don't doubt, he will honor it.

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by Rogg:
I am talking about being saved, when you ask Jesus to come into your heart and open your eyes.
Being Born Again.
When you become a new creation in Christ Jesus, you know it immediately.
Your eyes are opened immediately, there is no doubting it, and it is a powerful, life changing experience.
If you don't know when you were born again, then you were not born again.
You know the minute you became a new creature in Christ.

Rog

Please post your Bible text. Feelings are not a good gauge for salvation.


I Know that those of this were as you say yet they Felt saved, were they?

Acts.19

[3] And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

--------------------
That is all.....

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Rogg
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I am talking about being saved, when you ask Jesus to come into your heart and open your eyes.
Being Born Again.
When you become a new creation in Christ Jesus, you know it immediately.
Your eyes are opened immediately, there is no doubting it, and it is a powerful, life changing experience.
If you don't know when you were born again, then you were not born again.
You know the minute you became a new creature in Christ.

Rog

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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Aaron, the enemy does not have legal right to enslave us with sinfulness and a sinful mind but the enemy has what rights you choose to surrender to him.

I agree, this is true for one who is born again. My comments were from the perspective of the lost. And in the forefront of my mind is that our enemy is not flesh and blood but is spiritual. Sin is a spiritual problem. So, any weapon raised against the enemy that has no spiritual relevance will not work.

Stick with this for a bit if you will: What choice does the son of Adam have but to be a slave of sin? His father was a slave to sin and his offspring inherited this from their father. It is the son's nature to sin.

Legally, a son cannot be adopted as long as he has a father. Yet, if the son dies, the rights the father had on the son's life are made null and void; a dead son cannot inherit anything from his father. So, to answer the legal right our father, Adam, has on our life we are buried with Him (Christ) through water baptism into death. Death cuts off the enemy's right to enslave and pursue us.

This is what this passage is saying:

quote:
Colossians 2:11-14 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

And then two references to water baptism are cited in the New Testament: Moses and Noah.

The first one is here:

quote:
1 Corinthians 10:1-5 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
We see here that even though they were baptized (their going under the cloud and through the sea was like baptism in water), and the enemy's pursuit was cut off, they still did not please God with their actions. So they were scattered in the wilderness. We also know that they made agreements with their enemies and thus came under the rule of an enemy again. Therefore, the salvation from their enemy WAS LOST. This is the salvation they lost: they lost freedom from their captors and were enslaved again.

The other example was Noah:

quote:
1Peter 3:20-22 "..when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
Here, 8 souls were saved through water baptism. That's a fact. But it was not salvation into Heaven, they did not go into Heaven when the waters receded. The salvation they gained produced "a good conscience toward God". For the 8 souls it was like "starting over" and not being counted among the dead.

For us, the symbol of water baptism was given: so that we may be free from our enemy, have our minds changed, and continue on our walk with the Son of God who teaches us to be sons of God ourselves. Also, it is a tool against the enemy for they, the demonic, witness our water baptism too. When they minister against the truths of God and try to get us to exchange our life in the Spirit for a carnal life we can say to them, "You saw my water baptism! I was buried with Christ, my old man is dead. You have no authority over me!". And he will flee. So, although this is a salvation it is not the salvation that get's us to Heaven.

Aaron

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becauseHElives
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Aaron, the enemy does not have legal right to enslave us with sinfulness and a sinful mind but the enemy has what rights you choose to surrender to him.

Remember Yeshua not only spoke of the entrance (the straight gate) but He also spoke of the narrow path (complete trust in Him).

Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed me: Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite, and Joshua the son of Nun: for they have wholly followed the Lord. And the Lord’s anger was kindled against Israel, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the Lord, was consumed” (Numbers 32: 11,13; also Psalm 95: 8-11).

I don't have time to finish developing this I have to leave for the rest of the week...

i hope you can follow my thought...

see you all soon
Yahweh Bless
Dale

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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IAAFOTL
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Hi Aaron. I like your avatar! I see it as symbolic of who we are in Christ. [dance]

Very interesting post [Smile]


quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
We are talking about Salvation unto eternal life the consequence of this salvation is citizenship in Heaven. But, there are other salvations in the Bible. One is "salvation from the enemy's pursuit" as in Exodus 14:13.

quote:
Exd 14:13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom you have seen to day, you shall see them again no more for ever.
This "salvation" did not lead to entrance into Heaven nor did it lead to entrance into the promise land. It did, however, allow the people of God to continue on their journey toward what God had promised.

As far as I can tell this "salvation" served two purposes for God's people: 1) upon seeing the power of their captor (chariots and army) smashed and drowned the idea that THEY were still slaves ended; this freed their minds from thinking like slaves so they could begin to think like sons of God and 2) their fear of harassment by their captor ended for his strength and ability to enslave them was smashed before their eyes.

I also believe this is the symbol of water Baptism: we are buried with Christ and in the likeness of His death the ties we had with our original father, Adam, are legally cut (we go to a place the enemy cannot follow). When "dead" the enemy no longer has the legal right to enslave us with sinfulness and a sinful mind. We may continue on toward God's calling unabated by the enemy.

This salvation is not about entrance in to Heaven. It is about maturity in Christ our Lord.

Aaron



--------------------
Study to show yourself approved, a workman unto God who needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
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My screen name stands for "I am a Friend of The Lord's"

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IAAFOTL
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Amen. Excellent post! [thumbsup2]


quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Salvation is not an experience.

Salvation is a person,

Yeshua is Salvation.

Salvation can be in different experiences, for different people but Salvation always begins with brokenness before Yahweh as the individual sees his personal transgression of the Law of Yahweh and repentance begins in the heart.

This repentance never is truly complete until this body of corruption is put off and the believer puts on mortality.

The struggle between the two natures is always present after the New Birth takes place.

Yeshua said you have to choose, you can not serve two masters.

Before the New Birth there was no choice, Satan was the only choice.

The New Birth brings about that warfare the Apostle Paul is always talking about, it is the reason Yeshua spoke of taking up your cross daily.

Yeshua was tempted to come down off the cross….He was in all points tempted as we are tempted the scripture declare but never failed.

Matthew 27:40…. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

If He the Lord of Glory could be tempted to come off His cross, doesn’t the believer understand he too can be temped to quit carrying his/her cross?

The beginning and the end of Salvation is in Yeshua,

Hbr 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Anyone that receives eternal life will endure his/her personal cross (resisting sin in all forms) they are call to bear in this life.

Some have ears to hear some don’t; I pray all hear what the Spirit is saying.



--------------------
Study to show yourself approved, a workman unto God who needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
_ ____ _
My screen name stands for "I am a Friend of The Lord's"

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Aaron
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We are talking about Salvation unto eternal life the consequence of this salvation is citizenship in Heaven. But, there are other salvations in the Bible. One is "salvation from the enemy's pursuit" as in Exodus 14:13.

quote:
Exd 14:13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom you have seen to day, you shall see them again no more for ever.
This "salvation" did not lead to entrance into Heaven nor did it lead to entrance into the promise land. It did, however, allow the people of God to continue on their journey toward what God had promised.

As far as I can tell this "salvation" served two purposes for God's people: 1) upon seeing the power of their captor (chariots and army) smashed and drowned the idea that THEY were still slaves ended; this freed their minds from thinking like slaves so they could begin to think like sons of God and 2) their fear of harassment by their captor ended for his strength and ability to enslave them was smashed before their eyes.

I also believe this is the symbol of water Baptism: we are buried with Christ and in the likeness of His death the ties we had with our original father, Adam, are legally cut (we go to a place the enemy cannot follow). When "dead" the enemy no longer has the legal right to enslave us with sinfulness and a sinful mind. We may continue on toward God's calling unabated by the enemy.

This salvation is not about entrance in to Heaven. It is about maturity in Christ our Lord.

Aaron

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IAAFOTL
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Good morning oneinChrist [hug]

I see what you are saying and amen. And a good example of His Words are these:
Luke 6:46-49
"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great."


quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
I agree IAAFOTL with your response. Maybe I should not have used the words "words printed in red" because not all bibles include the highlighted words of the Lord...I just meant an emphasis on the words of Christ as to try to convey my message. One of the reasons I believe that OSAS is so popular is because it doesnt put emphasis on our accountability in Christ...sadly inviting in the abuse of grace. Thanks for the chat my friend.



--------------------
Study to show yourself approved, a workman unto God who needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
_ ____ _
My screen name stands for "I am a Friend of The Lord's"

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becauseHElives
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Salvation is not an experience.

Salvation is a person,

Yeshua is Salvation.

Salvation can be in different experiences, for different people but Salvation always begins with brokenness before Yahweh as the individual sees his personal transgression of the Law of Yahweh and repentance begins in the heart.

This repentance never is truly complete until this body of corruption is put off and the believer puts on mortality.

The struggle between the two natures is always present after the New Birth takes place.

Yeshua said you have to choose, you can not serve two masters.

Before the New Birth there was no choice, Satan was the only choice.

The New Birth brings about that warfare the Apostle Paul is always talking about, it is the reason Yeshua spoke of taking up your cross daily.

Yeshua was tempted to come down off the cross….He was in all points tempted as we are tempted the scripture declare but never failed.

Matthew 27:40…. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

If He the Lord of Glory could be tempted to come off His cross, doesn’t the believer understand he too can be temped to quit carrying his/her cross?

The beginning and the end of Salvation is in Yeshua,

Hbr 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Anyone that receives eternal life will endure his/her personal cross (resisting sin in all forms) they are call to bear in this life.

Some have ears to hear some don’t; I pray all hear what the Spirit is saying.

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Rogg
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Being saved (Born Again) is very powerful experience, if you have not experienced it, then you are not saved.
And the big confusion is what Paul said, we are saved by grace through faith, but then faith without works is dead.
So if we have faith, then there are works.
But works without faith is dead also.
If we believe unto good works, then we will finish the race.

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oneinchrist
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I agree IAAFOTL with your response. Maybe I should not have used the words "words printed in red" because not all bibles include the highlighted words of the Lord...I just meant an emphasis on the words of Christ as to try to convey my message. One of the reasons I believe that OSAS is so popular is because it doesnt put emphasis on our accountability in Christ...sadly inviting in the abuse of grace. Thanks for the chat my friend.
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IAAFOTL
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I agree with you however, unfortunately there are those preaching a false version of the security of the believer that the Bible does not teach and apparently it isn't "old enough" as the false teaching is still very much alive and thriving, and misleading people into believing that they are saved, when they are not, but rather have been deceived.

And please take note that not just the words in red are Christ's words. Jesus IS the Word of God. Every word that proceeds from the mouth of God are words for us to live by.

2 Timothy 3:15-17

"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

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Study to show yourself approved, a workman unto God who needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
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oneinchrist
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Isnt this age old OSAS debate a waste of time? IF God is the one who determines whether or not we have saving faith, our main concern should be examining our own hearts whether or not we are truely in the faith....instead of worrying about whether or not we could lose what we believe we have. The words of Jesus lay forth all the conditions for salvation...they are the measuring rod for each of us. In this, we do not find ourselves measuring each other for the standard , but by the words printed in red which are the true and just measure.
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IAAFOTL
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It is not true that only God knows who His sheep are. It is true that He knows who ALL of His sheep are, but it is also true that we will be known by our fruits by anyone looking. It's not supposed to be the best kept secret.
Some people's relationships with Jesus are so "personal" you would never know they had one.

(chances are they don't)

We are called to be separate. And we need to examine ourselves frequently. We should be able to be known by our fruits.

Yes, I will agree, that new Christians who are still walking after the flesh, it can be hard to tell the difference sometimes, and God knows they are His, even if the world can't tell yet. But the important thing is that they, (we) don't remain there.

We have to move from Romans chapter 7 to Romans chapter 8 and we will by the power of the Holy Spirit, when we keep Him close.

Just late last night I was burdened to address the false and dangerous doctrine of OSAS. I wrote an extensive teaching with the Lord's help. You can get to it from the home page of my Christian site.

You'll see it there in the middle where the Devotionals section is. You can click the "Current Devotion" graphic or the link that says
"The Danger of the False Doctrine of OSAS"

Jesus is coming soon. Don't wait until it is too late to know the Truth!

Click Here

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Study to show yourself approved, a workman unto God who needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
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yahsway
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AMH, Agree! [thumbsup2]
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AMH
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yahsway,

There is a lot to be said about persecution, but for now-

If we cannot tell who a believer is then how do we explain to someone how to become a believer? I am not trying to be difficult yahsway. I have pointed out in a previous posting that Calvin said, (and you can look this up elsewhere) there are people who are deceived into believing that they are saved. These people Calvin said are the ones who fall back. In other words they were never really saved to begin with. What Calvin’s doctrine boils down to is that if you accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, repenting of your sins and follow Him that this means nothing. But the Bible says that we can know Him and know that He knows us and that others will also know.

There is no secret rapture for the secret Christian.

AMH

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yahsway
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I was just thinking, maybe also, when persecutions do come, we will be able to know for sure who the Real Church body of believers are, for they will not love their lives even unto death.

Maybe it will be at that time when the true body of believers are known by all. This will probably be the defining point I guess. Until then, we grow together. Does this make any sense? Shalom

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yahsway
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AMH, I agree with you. But it is not like that today. The christians of that period were called people of "The Way, a New Religon if you will. So I agree that Saul knew who they were.

But look around today. It is not totally impossible to tell who a true christian is, but there are many wolves in sheeps clothing and many being led astray, and even in the different denominations Im sure you would agree that the tares are growing side by side with the wheat. Only Yahweh God and Yeshua know for sure who their sheep are, for only God can totally know the heart of a person.

My point is that the messangers in the scripture in Matt. are the angels who will seperate the wheat from the Tares and Yeshua seperates the sheep from the goats. Until then, the True Church or Called Out Ones are only really known by the Father.

Yes, it was much easier to know who were True followers of Christ in Pauls day, but i am of the opinon it is not so easy to know today. Maybe thats why the "servants" (true christians) of the Master of the house were told when asked if they should gather up the tares not to do so lest they also uproot the wheat with them. We as the servants might make a mistake in this, for only God knows the true wheat from the true Tares.

Anyway, this is just my opinon mind you. With all the different denominations plus the the RCC claiming to be the "true" church, its simply harder to tell in this day and time as it was back when the origional Church was being established. Shalom

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AMH
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I want to give credit where credit is due. Those that believe in a secret rapture have done a very good job of getting their message across. In fact, so good of a job that just about everyone knows about the secret rapture.

Just what is so secret about it? Is there something about it that you are not telling us?

yahsway,

Saul of Tarsus received authority from the high Priest in Jerusalem to go to Damascus, arrest the Christians and bring them back to Jerusalem. Before he was struck down blind he had no trouble figuring out who the Christians were.

How could a non-believer, one who was not Spirit filled be able to do such a thing if what you say is true about only Yahweh knowing?

AMH

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yahsway
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AMH, I would say that the reapers(angels, messangers) will know us by our seal or in other words, the ones who are sealed by Yeshua.

verse 41: The Son of Adam shall send out His messangers, and they shall gather out of His reignnall the stumbling blocks, and those DOING lawlessness.

49; thus shall it be at the end of the age: the messenagers shall come forth, and seperate the wicked out of the midst of the rightous.

Lawlessness is the Darnel which the devil sowed, and sprouts and takes shape in the form of lawless "believers" Those who say but Lord, look what we did in your name and He says depart from me you who work iniquity(lawlessness) I never knew you. Shalom

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TEXASGRANDMA
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We studied about the rapture in Sunday School this morning. I believe one of these days the Church will meet Jesus in the air. Yes, it will be a secret rapture. In the twinkling of an eye we will be with Jesus and the world will then come up with all kinds of theories of where the Church went. The Bible says Jesus is coming back for those who are eager looking for His return. I pray every day for the rapture to take place soon.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

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AMH
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Very good yahsway; but how will the reapers know which is which?

AMH

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yahsway
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Yes AMH,Matt 13:30 is exactly my point. We wont know who the TRUE church (eeklessia) is until He alone seperates the Wheat from the tares.

As far as your question about if the Catholics are condradicting the Lord of the Sabbath, and others possibly condradicting the Lord of the harvest, well YES. This is a true statement.

Notice the tares are gathered First, and there are other scriptures to back this up. So this tells me there is no "secret" rapture" of the church.

They will both grow togethere until He seperates them, and the tares are taken first.

As scriptures say, we have "inherited lies" from our fathers. Shalom

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AMH
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Verse 30 of chapter 13--sorry
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AMH
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Yahsway,(and others),

Am I really suppose to take your “wheat and tare” point serious? Verse 30 of Matthew chapter 9 says-

30) Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

How do you get around the fact that Jesus says that the tares are gathered first?

If the Catholics are contradicting the Lord of the Sabbath then are not others contradicting the Lord of the Harvest?

I know that you will not give me quotes from Paul and the rest of the Apostles to supersede that of Jesus.

AMH

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becauseHElives
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Amen yahsway, [thumbsup2]

quote:

Church is not a denomiation or an organization, but a body of believers. It is the Eeklessia, meaning the called out ones, Not ones Called into a "system".

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

—Second Epistle of St. Paul to the Corinthians (vi, 14-17)

quote:
Yahweh is not the inventor of denominations.
The apostle Paul wrote to the evangelist Timothy, “Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15). This verse well-illustrates the need for understanding that word meanings may change, and we must be ever on guard against misapplying or twisting scripture, even when we try to teach the truth. The rendering, “study to show thyself approved unto God” is found only in the King James Version, translated in the year 1611. In 1611 the word “study” meant “strive,” or “be diligent.” Thus the New American Standard Bible renders the verse, “Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth.” The New International Version renders the verse, “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.”

Bible study is very important, but 2 Timothy 2:15 is not just a command to study the Bible. Being an approved workman involves much more. Paul wanted Timothy to understand that to be a workman that God could approve, he would have to be diligent in his service to God. God is not the kind of Master that accepts shoddy work! By earnestly applying himself in service, Timothy would not need to be ashamed as he stood before God in the day of judgment. To be that diligent, approved workman, he would have to “correctly handle the word of truth,” what the King James Version renders, “rightly dividing the word of truth.” Of necessity, correctly handling the Bible, the word of truth will involve much study, contemplation, and prayer. It will involve bringing an open mind, an open heart, and a faithful life to the word of truth. Implied in the correct handling is the proper understanding of the divisions between the Old and the New Covenants, understanding that the New Testament is the rule of faith and practice for Christians today.

The goal of being an approved workman should be the goal of all of God’s children. In the verses immediately before 2 Timothy 2:15, Paul stressed the importance of living faithfully before God, even to the point of suffering. “If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us” (2 Timothy 2:12). He then told Timothy, “Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers” (2 Timothy 2:14). The evangelist Timothy was to remind his hearers of the sacrifice of Christ, the need for serving Him, and the need to work diligently to be approved workmen before God. The diligent application of all our energy to the service of God will allow us to join Timothy standing before God without shame. Nothing will help us more to please God than to handle carefully and correctly God’s written word. We should look to the written word of God with the same reverence as the psalmist who wrote, “Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path” (Psalm 119:105).


quote:
Where is the "real" church. Only Yahweh knows for sure. The wheats and tares grow together until He alone seperates them.
True wheat in nature bows down when ripe

Tares (like alike wheat never bows

quote:
To the Early Christians, Rome was Babylon, The Mother of Idolatry (Idols, hmmmm, sounds like RCC to me)and all its evils.
True Christians were killed all day long because they would not bow and worship the Roman Catholic Church,

while the Roman Catholics were killing Potestants , Protestants were killing Catholics

but Roman Catholic and Protestants were killing the Anti-Baptist

only the Anti-Baptist were hated by everyone Rome, Potestants, and Roman Catholics

Potestants, and Roman Catholics hated Anti-Baptist because they would no except infant baptism (a form of once saved always saved)

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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yahsway
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Church is not a denomiation or an organization, but a body of believers. It is the Eeklessia, meaning the called out ones, Not ones Called into a "system".

Yahweh is not the inventor of denominations.

Where is the "real" church. Only Yahweh knows for sure. The wheats and tares grow together until He alone seperates them.

To the Early Christians, Rome was Babylon, The Mother of Idolatry (Idols, hmmmm, sounds like RCC to me)and all its evils.

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