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Author
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Topic: Is contraception wrong?
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LivingTwiceDyingOnce
Advanced Member
Member # 2616
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posted
The people saying that any contraception at all is wrong are only speaking from personal preference. The fact is, God never mentions anything of contraception in the Bible. The closest thing He does come to say is "Thou shalt not murder." But this assumes that you're actually murdering someone. Like--it actually has to be alive? By totally preventing from getting pregnant in the first place, you're not even letting it start!
Anyway, I'm done with this thread. Not out of spite, but I could sit here and type the same thing, over and over, until I'm blue in the face, but there are still people who will not agree just because they've been brought up that way, and they'll just argue and argue and argue. My friends and I have beaten this subject to freakin death in my government class, and I don't plan on doing anymore here.
Good luck, everyone!
~Kelly
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I think we've all arrived at a very special place... spiritually... ecumenically... gramatically...
Captain Jack Sparrow, Pirates of the Caribbean
Posts: 23 | Registered: Jan 2004
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ps139
Advanced Member
Member # 2652
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posted
I think that anything that has the intent to prevent human life is wrong. I know that due to financial pressures it is not practical for many to have 5, 6, 7 children. But there is something called Natural Family Planning which if followed, works. It is based on the woman's menstrual cycles and eliminates the need or desire for contraception.
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It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. - Martin Luther
Posts: 143 | From: NJ | Registered: Jan 2004
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
LivingTwiceDyingOnce
I did not set the principle up, the principle is directly from the Holy Scriptures.
to hate is the same as to kill
to lust is the same as the actual act of adultry
it is easy to look at anothers sin and say mine are not as bad, but that is not what Yahweh says.
He says if I am going to judge someone , then I must be free of that sins affect in my own heart.
Birth control is the same as abortion, I have no ax to grind, I am not telling you that you have to have X number of children.
But what I am saying is that if the Church collectively or we as individuals of the Church, chose to speak out against the horrors of abotion and I do mean horrors, for I could send you picture that would make a normal person vomit, abotion is horroible, but if I want to be free from condemnation in my own heart before Yahweh and speak out against abortion, the smallest portion of my desire to control the birth process must be totally committed to Yahweh's will.
There are matters we are called to judge, but only after we have judge ourself and gotten victory in that area of our life.
With the measure we judge, we shall be judged.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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LivingTwiceDyingOnce
Advanced Member
Member # 2616
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posted
I hope you didn't think I was being rude, or for that matter, at all more emotional, about my response to you than to others. I realize that you're just posting your thoughts. The only thing I was trying to drive home is that there are so many people who look down on people who use birth control, and I'm not saying that you were one of them, it just seemed that that's the direction you were leaning to in your first post.
Anyway, gotta get going to church. Until the next post....
~Kelly
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I think we've all arrived at a very special place... spiritually... ecumenically... gramatically...
Captain Jack Sparrow, Pirates of the Caribbean
Posts: 23 | Registered: Jan 2004
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Salti
unregistered
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posted
Kelly, I was simply responding to the posts. Please understand that we all share our views here and I was simply doing that. You were correct in your statement concerning marriage/dating.. that we must not move too far one direction or the other on the issue of God's plans for us.. which was the point I was trying to make. It is easy for some to say "If God wants this, it'll just happen" We have a responsibility to seek God's will.
Now, as to whether or not God's will might include birth control is perhaps a better way to look at this than the way many did.. stating simply that they shoudl make their own choice and let God intervene if He don't like it.
As I stated, I believe the Lord desires for me to trust Him with the outcome and not to plan for or against children. I know people who have planned for children in ways they believed the Lord was leading for them. That would be between them and the Lord..just as would be the case for birth control in my opionion.. However, a careful study on different types would show you what is actually happening and you could discern whether they are methods the Lord would approve of.
The main issue here is that we all need to be praying, seeking the Lord and letting Him be Lord of all areas of our lives. Not tempting Him and forcing Him to pick up the pieces when we disobey. If something is against scripture, we can be sure it is against His will. But, if something is permissable, or is unspoken of in scripture, we must understand that that does NOT mean it is His will for us. This applies to all areas of our lives..If we want God's perfect will in our lives, we must seek it out.. not simply choose any path that is not obviously wrong and assume it must therefore be right.
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Changed
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Member # 2696
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posted
OK, I'll bite ;-)
Understand as I write this that I am NOT judging ANYONE's choice. That is not nor ever has been my place or priviledge - that is solely our Father's place. I'm only sharing my personal aspect.
For years my husband and I practiced some form of birth control (never abortion). I did not trust the Lord - I figured I knew MY life and MY plans better then He did (Ha!) and that I knew better then God when I was ready for a child.
Without getting into details, I am now I am reaping what I sow (this being just one of many of my rebellions against God) in several painful ways. The Lord has taught me that HIS plans are perfect, it's just up to us to listen and obey :-)
My take on it now is that if I totally trust the Lord in all I do then it's no problem to totally trust Him when it comes to how many (or if any) children He blesses us with. It's just one lesson the Lord has brought to me and one I sorely regret not learning earlier.
As I said - each finds his/her answers in the Lord in his/her own way. That's just my view :-)
Posts: 2 | From: North Carolina | Registered: Jan 2004
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LivingTwiceDyingOnce
Advanced Member
Member # 2616
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posted
Salti,
I agree that some people use the argument of "Well, if God wants me to have a baby, then He'll make me have one, regardless." And though you may not have been specifically talking to me, this is not what I did. In fact, I thought I made it quite clear that [b]if you make an effort to see what God's plan for you is, and there is nothing wrong with what you want to do, [i]then[i], and only then, is it a good idea to try it out, and then if God doesn't want it then He'll stop it.[b] Never did I just say "Well, if God doesn't want me to do this blatantly bad thing, then He can stop me." That's as rediculous as saying "Well, if God didn't want me to do it, then He wouldn't have allowed me to."
The main theme of my last post, though, was that God said nothing of contraception, whatsoever, and so it's not a big faith deal if you want to use it. I mean, it may be that way in some cases, but the point was that just because someone uses it doesn't mean that they are saying "Well, I don't trust God with my family life. I'm gonna stop His will from taking place." Again, another example, that's like saying "I want to get married, but I'm just gonna sit here in my house and not do anything, and not meet anyone, and not take care of myself so that I'm halfway decent looking." It's not that we can just sit around and wait for God to do anything, but we can't go the other way and say "Well, I'd better do it myself, cause God's never gonna do anything."
~Kelly
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I think we've all arrived at a very special place... spiritually... ecumenically... gramatically...
Captain Jack Sparrow, Pirates of the Caribbean
Posts: 23 | Registered: Jan 2004
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Salti
unregistered
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posted
Several of you have stated that if God wants a person to have a child, it don't matter if they are on birth control or not and you have used that to justify being *for* it. Then it shouldnt be difficult to grasp the idea that if He DOESN'T want you to have a child, He can prevent it. It is common for Christians nowadays to desire to do what they want and expect God to interfere if they are wrong.. but He does not hinder our will.. His perfect will cannot be done if we refuse to allow Him to be the Lord of our life, but rather ask that He simply step in when we mess up.
I have to go with BHL on this one..personally, for me, it would be out of my own will to make a decision to have or not have children, not in seeking the Lord's will (and so would "planning" pregnancy as well. But for those who have prayed over the decision and feel the Lord is leading them to use such, thats between them and He.
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LivingTwiceDyingOnce
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Member # 2616
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posted
One thing we DON'T want to do is tell people that they don't have faith, simply because people act on their wishes of not wanting children, and this is for a few reasons: (1) Saying this is like saying that we can just not try on anything, because God has control, and His will will be done anyway. This is retarded. If we are looking for God's will, and there is nothing stated that says what we want to do is against His will, or He hasn't been sending us obvious signs not to do it, then you do it, and if it's His will, then it'll happen; otherwise, it won't. It's that simple. (2) Nothing that we do is going to hinder God's sovreign will, so it's not like we can't take some form of contraception and not get pregnany anyway, because it happens. (3) There is nothing in the Bible that says anything about contraception, whatsoever (Other than the fact that He told us to be fruitful and multiply, but we've done that... so I don't think it's a sin to not just be popping out babies every year), and there WAS a form of it, that was coitus interruptus. Now, like I've said before, if He had said something about it, then I would probably not be taking this stand, because I think one type of birth control would generally be applicable to all the others, because, obviously, they hadn't been invented yet, and so the same general rule would apply to now. But the fact is that He didn't, and so there's no reason to believe that a non-existant rule would apply to us today, and not to them.
Now, obviously, just like I'm asking you not to tell us what to believe, I'm not telling you what to believe. I'm merely stating my opinion (which, if you haven't noticed yet, I'm not hesitant to give ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) ), but I hope you at least take it into consideration for the reason that you have no scripture to base your stand on, and so it's rediculous to have such a harsh opinion that is so ambiguous in the first place.
~Kelly
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I think we've all arrived at a very special place... spiritually... ecumenically... gramatically...
Captain Jack Sparrow, Pirates of the Caribbean
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pookeysan
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Member # 2642
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posted
I hope ive hadnt offended anyone by what i said but i will repeat it again.When we think we know better than God it shows a lack of faith.You can sugar coat it, call it anything you want.Makeup any excuse,you cant afford it,its not the time, your afraid.It all comes down to a lack of trust in God.I know this doesnt sound pleasant,but none the less true.I look forward to many more exchanges of ideas and opinions.God Bless
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suzyshop
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pookeysan
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Member # 2642
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posted
When it comes to birth control and wether to use it or not.The first thing i would ask myself is, is Jesus the Lord of my life.Do i trust him even with my reproductive cycle.The Bible clearly states that God forms life in the womb.Who are we to thwart his purpose.I think it comes down to a lack of faith , and that God knows what is best for us.And just maybe we might lack faith in God period!There are alot of grey areas in the bible but then there are verses that are very clear.If we refuse to heed them ,then maybe the faith we think we have is a false faith.By praticing birth control its like telling God we are in control, we have no faith in him to do and provide for us what we need to raise those children.Either you have faith in God or you dont.Simple.
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suzyshop
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LivingTwiceDyingOnce
Advanced Member
Member # 2616
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posted
I don't think that's a very fair judgment. Abortion is far worse than birth control (and that's even if you consider birth control to be wrong), because it's preventing life from beginning, instead of killing something. The baby doesn't even have a life to look forward to when you cut it off, because it completely prevents the fertilization in the first place.
Secondly, God says nothing about birth control... He doesn't even say anything about coitus interruptus, and what other way would they have been able to perform birth control in Genesis other than that? Frankly, if there was anything about that, then I would give it to you, and I would probably change my position as well... because, if you think about it, God wouldn't be telling people about stuff that they had no idea what he was talking about, anyway (unless it's like stuff in Revelation and other parts where it's clearly to one person, and you know what I'm talking about, about that).
So I still maintain that just so long as it's only preventing fertilization and not killing the child (regardless of how old it is), then it's fine.
~Kelly
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I think we've all arrived at a very special place... spiritually... ecumenically... gramatically...
Captain Jack Sparrow, Pirates of the Caribbean
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
Each individual will answer this question according to the measure of faith they are walking in.
But the spiritual part of it is narrowed down to how we judge others over abortion.
Jesus narrows everything down. He does not make it easier.
Jesus said about murder, that the act of murder is equal to just hating the person.
Jesus said about adultery, that the act adultery is equal to lusting in your heart.
If we are going to make a judgement on the persons that are having abortions or aproving of abortion, then we must be free of every aspect of abortion.
Ask yourself the question why do people say they need to limit the amount of children they are to have in their family by birth control?
The answers are the same as those that have abortions.
Until the Church is willing to trust Yahweh, in this area of life, it needs to remain silent in judgment of the world.
Yahweh wants to be Lord of the womb also.
He has said He will not put upon us more than we can bear. This means the number of children He places in your care.
Is birth control wrong?
It is no more wrong than abortion.
This is one of the things Jesus was refering to when He said "judge not lest you be guilty of the same sin".
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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LivingTwiceDyingOnce
Advanced Member
Member # 2616
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posted
No, I was not aware of that. I guess I take it for granted when people tell me that those type of things don't even allow fertilization, but I guess that must only be true for some. Thank you for enlightening me, now I can be more aware of what I'm talking about when this subject comes up.
In that case, I rephrase my prior comment to simply, "Anything that kills the fetus after it is conceived, I do not agree with. This includes abortion, the morning-after pill, and any other pills that only prevent the child from living, and not preventing conception itself."
Getting sleepy... ![[zzzzzz]](graemlins/20.gif) Goodnight everyone!
~Kelly
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I think we've all arrived at a very special place... spiritually... ecumenically... gramatically...
Captain Jack Sparrow, Pirates of the Caribbean
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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posted
You said you believe that the morning after pill is abortion. I would guess that is because the morning after pill is used after conception has occured. So I asked if you knew that most birth control pills use hormones that create changes in the uterine wall that do not allow the fertilized egg to implant itself in the uterus and therefore grow.
This means that conception has occured but the fertilized ovum is not permitted to become implanted and grow; thus if you believe that human life begins at the moment of conception, the birth control pill causes abortion because a fertilized ovum that cannot implant itself in the uterine wall is passed from the body and that fertilized ovum is a human life.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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LivingTwiceDyingOnce
Advanced Member
Member # 2616
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posted
I'm not quite sure I understand what you're getting at... could you please explain yourself further?
~Kelly
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I think we've all arrived at a very special place... spiritually... ecumenically... gramatically...
Captain Jack Sparrow, Pirates of the Caribbean
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
Hi Kelly:
Are you aware that many birth control pills work by not allowing the fertilized egg to become implanted in the uterine wall?
This is a good article on the subject because it has an extensive list of references to support its claims:
Does the Pill Cause Abortion?
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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LivingTwiceDyingOnce
Advanced Member
Member # 2616
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posted
God told Adam and Eve, Noah and his wife, and Noah's children to populate the earth. However, we have done this, and now people are even starting to talk about overpopulating the earth... ![[1zhelp]](graemlins/1zhelp.gif) (I don't believe that we'd overpopulate the earth by mass; I think it's meant by depletion of resources, but I think we'll all be gone before that happens anyway: the point is that people are talking about it as a serious concern, even though it's mainly used by pro-choicers... coincidence? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) I think not!)
In any case, I think that the reason we need birth control in the first place, is because we can't control ourselves. However, I also believe that our world lifestyle doesn't allow us to have as many kids as they used to have in the OT up to the early 1900s, because we have changed so much in the past century. Because of this, I do believe that birth control is okay, so long as it is NOT the morning-after pill or any other form of abortion. (Yes, I believe that life begins AT conception, and that the morning-after pill IS abortion!)
I think we should have the freedom to be with our husband/wife without having to worry "Are we going to have another child that we can't afford?"
~Kelly
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I think we've all arrived at a very special place... spiritually... ecumenically... gramatically...
Captain Jack Sparrow, Pirates of the Caribbean
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cynthia2003
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Member # 2470
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posted
I think that birth controll is okay, as long as it isn't abortion. I am against abortion. I think stuff like condoms, the pill, and surgeries like vasectomy and having tubes tied are okay. I think abstaining untill marriage is good, but what do you do after marriage? Not all of us want kids.
I don't want kids. I have reasons. I really don't have much of a maternal instinct at all. The idea of having kids (mostly the giving birth part) terrifies me ( I don't know why, by giving birth just seems so scary!). Daycare and babysitters costs a lot of money. The reason I put this is because I'd go to work even if I had kids (I would return as soon as I recovered from birth). And 5 years of daycare and sitters (up untill they get old enough for school) would cost a lot of money. (I do think that kids are worth more than money, but still...you know that is a lot of money)Staying at home would not be an option to me, because I don't want to do that, I (I DO NOT feel that "the womans place is in the home") And one of the biggest reasons is that I would rather adopt. There are so many kids that need a family, I feel it would be better to adopt (especially older kids since not as many people adopt them). And don't want a lot of kids. If I do adopt after I get married which is several years in the future because I'm 18 and don't want to marry before I am 21) I would only adopt 1 or 2. And that is even if I do adopt (that is the only way I will have kids is adopting one), like I said before, I don't have much of a maternal instinct. So it depends on how I feel a few years from now.
Posts: 26 | From: USA | Registered: Dec 2003
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FloridaFormula5
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Member # 1945
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posted
What must be remembered about contraception is what the very word denotes: the contradiction of conception. Putting it that way exposes it as a practice that is highly dismissive of God's power to give life. It is a measure taken by those who, though free of devious intentions, have lost sight of the holiness of the sexual act.
To introduce a barrier or foreign chemical into the sexual act remakes sex in our image, after our preferences. It does not result in the unity between husband and wife as God intends. True marital union is celebrated only when open to the transmission of life. But let's not just take my word for it; observe what our society has done to manipulate humanity's sexual powers.
For one, we now accept babies conceived apart from sex. Genetic engineering has removed the necessity for mother and father to even know one another. Talk about family breakdown! Our desire for sexual freedom has created the absurdities of institutions such as sperm banks, giving rise to children who may have tens, hundreds, or potentially even thousands of siblings without any knowledge of who those brothers and sisters are. Fathers, for their part, impregnate multiple women without any thought for the children they have generated or for the women with whom they have shared their seed. This is a gross distortion of what God intended, and it is shameful in His sight.
But the effects don't stop there. Just as we have approved of babies apart from sex, we have also become conditioned to accept sex without the possibility of babies! Some people can pretend that this option to shut down our reproductive powers liberates us, but it is common knowledge that contraceptives have become the chosen disguise for those who practice the very immorality we Christians reject when we marry. Right now, in fact, all across our nation, men (and to a lesser extent, women) are engaging in sexual behavior that is condemened in Scripture. Indeed, their acts are sinful regardless of their use or disuse of contraceptives, but many who would otherwise reconsider promiscuous sex find in various contraceptives a way to indulge in sin without shouldering its reproductive consequences. No matter what our stance on birth control issues, certainly all of us who acknowledge Christ as Lord can agree that these awful sexual practices account for much of why Jesus came to save us. After all, sexual sin more than any other kind enslaves the one who commits it and defiles his very flesh (cf. 1 Corinthians 6:9-20).
If contraceptive measures of different kinds are the chosen tools for those who do shameful deeds in darkness, why then do we give these things a place in our marriages? If we claim to offer ourselves totally to our spouses only to then withhold from them the willingness to become a parent, we are liars. And yet this is the very dilemma facing the Christian couple that practices birth control.
A wife says to her husband, "I give to you all of myself: my body, my soul, my mind. But there is one thing you cannot have: my potential to become the mother of your child." Similarly, the husband says to his wife, "I give you all of myself: body, soul, mind. But I will not give to you my willingness to become the father of your child." By choosing to reduce their sacred sexual union to a mere excercise in pleasure, the couple effectively says to God, "We are open to receiving your gift of pleasure that comes from sexual union. But we are not interested in your gift of life. You can keep that part." This, my brethren, is a sad state of affairs.
There is no way our moral and righteous God could look down approvingly on such grave distortions of His creation. Much to the contrary, He condemns them. But He does so because He loves us and wants us to live in the truth! Paul writes, "love rejoices in the truth" (1 Corinthians 13:6). When we choose the world's way, each of our relationships suffers: the one with God, the one with our spouse, and those with our neighbors. Let us pray a repentant prayer, come back to our senses, reject what is false, and return all control once again to God.
Posts: 4 | From: Pembroke Pines, FL | Registered: Aug 2003
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Goldman01
Advanced Member
Member # 1955
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posted
No one has mentioned other forms of "birth control" that I've seen. The oral contraceptive is not the ONLY form of birth control out there. What about spermicides, condoms, sponges, etc? What about (and I don't want to be gross, but) withdrawal? There are different types of birth control methods that MANY people use today!
I personally am in favor of birth control! I have not "aborted" ANY pregnancy! I have one beautiful child and PLAN to have one more!
I'm especially in favor of birth control when it comes to a non-Christian who doesn't want children and would probably abuse that child. What about cases like those? There are too many wicked people out there having children left and right "raising" them to be just as wicked as they are!
It's a judgment call! It's between you and God! What's right for one person may be wrong for another!
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Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Posts: 24 | From: Southern IL | Registered: Aug 2003
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Aingeal
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Member # 1953
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posted
I've taken birth control for years (hormonal birth control). And the hormones you get from it really messes you up. It causes problems not just for yoru labido but moods etc...equally in a very hard time at home. And I KNOW I'm not the only one, cause I've talked to SEVERAL others and they have done the same thing.
God said thing sin Leviticus about woman being unclean and for how many days. You'll see if you read it he's basically telling you when she is fertle.
However, if I hadn't been on birth control we would have many children instead of the one we have, resulting in somethign very irresponsible. I know a girl who is a year older than me and has 3 kids, another who has 5. They both are on assisted living.
However I'm not saying I'm against birth control in the least. I do agree, being fruitful and replenishing the earth doesn't mean be a baby factory. There are many ways to do so. The Lord also said in Ephisians that no only a wife to obey her husband and love him, but he love and respect her in return. Which indicates obvious to make a choice together when and when not to have children. And God never said anything AGAINST birth control anyway. It isn't like abortion since you are not killing a living thing...since you don't give your body to send an egg down to be fertilized (hense become a living thing) in the first place. It's delaying it a while. Sometimes this works well, a husband and wife can make reasonable decisions when it's right or not to expand their family...a plan (my husband and I have one child, we'd like 3 more possible, therefore we have planned to wait at least 2 years before the next). I have seen where homonal birth control and non hormonal birth control has totally messed up a couples plans to have children..sad, but true. But there are many MANY children who do not have homes, in which most people opt for adoption. I think it's all in God's hands anyway, so what does it matter?..I mean really...
Besides, it's proven having children very close in age and being pregnant again and again right after eachother IS DANGEROUS to the body. You're body needs to heal.
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Let go and let God.
Posts: 5 | From: California | Registered: Aug 2003
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honeybeez
Community Member
Member # 1781
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posted
TEXASGRANDMA,
hugz2U sis. No prob. This is a strong issue that obviously conjures strong feelings. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
God bless.
beez
Posts: 18 | From: maryland | Registered: Jul 2003
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Eliana
Advanced Member
Member # 1471
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posted
Personally, I have grappled with this issue. In my younger years I was fine with myself and other women taking Birth control pills. I thought it was better than having unwanted children. I personally used birth control because I was not ready to have a child although I was married. I went from that to thinking certain kinds of contraception was wrong.
I worked as a Counselor at a Christian Pregnancy Center that looked down on Birth control because they suggested that Birth Control Pills acted as an abortifacient. I did extensive research on the subject and found this was a far stretch.
So I am well versed in the various arguement for and against birth control and contraception of any kind. I am also well versed in exactly what oral contraception of various kinds do inside the body.
I am of the opinion that birth control pills are acceptable. I think it's a lot worse to have unwanted children and end up mistreating them or resenting them altogether. I think it is much more responsible to use contraception in order to prevent unwanted pregnancy. I also think it is more responsible to have children that you can support.
Now I do have an issue with what types of birth control is used. RU486 (the abortion pill) is unacceptable because a woman has already conceived thus she is carrying a life, nor do I like the idea of women having invasive abortions as a method of birth control since that is taking a life as well. I also think sterilization is wrong because the Bible does give clear instruction reguarding it including the command to be fruitful and to multiply.
I have not made up my mind on the issue of coitus interruptus. Onan (Gen. 38:8-10)used coitus interruptus as a means of birth control to avoid fathering a child for his deceased brother. God killed Onan for this sin. So I am not sure if this is saying that act is a sin or that in that case it was a sin since in that custom and time a widow was supposed to be married to her brother in law and he was to produce a child with her to help carry on his brother's line..
Does anyone have any opinion on Onan's story ?
Posts: 46 | Registered: May 2003
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Member # 847
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I am sorry honeybeez. I was really nervous when I posted yesterday and it was like I can't believe we argue so much on the Christian BBS. I am sorry if I hurted your feelings. I do think that most people are set in their oponions on this subject and short of Jesus calling us on the phone to tell us we are wrong, we ain't going to change our minds.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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honeybeez
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Whew! Thought I was being rebuked for a moment. Thanx for the understanding and the welcome. You are the first!
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helpforhomeschoolers
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There is no shelf life on postings, honeybeez!
Welcome to the board!
Grandma just expressed her opiion on the dealing with this subject; I am sure it was not meant to offend you.
You are always welcome to bring something new to any thread you choose.
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honeybeez
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posted
Oh? I didn't know there was a shelf life on postings. My apologies for these unwelcome thoughts.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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We beat this subject to death two months ago. I am sad to see it brought out again.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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honeybeez
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posted
Some heavy discussion going on here. Hmmm?
I am for birth control. It was given to us to use with common sense. But on the other hand, I will NOT judge another woman who decides to have several children with her husband. This decision, either way, is a trianglar decision. Between God, her husband, and herself.
Just some points I saw along the way...
Semen is referred to as offspring even before it joins the egg:
Hmm? Then why doesn't it live by itself? It believe it's referred to as 'SEED' in the word.
Very few Roman Catholics , Mormons, or Islamic children leave their teachings.
Very few leave because MANY will be disowned if they do. Just like my Grandmother was. (Catholic) I had a friend who was mormon. He was disowned...seriously shunned. People leaving the Islamic faith are infidels. I know of an Indian man who was jailed and later put to death because he proclaimed Christ and denounced Allah.
So if you really think Birthcontroll is BAD you should only have sex when you want a child.
1 Corinthians 7:5
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt
you not for your incontinency.
Sex is a bonding of hearts and spirits between husband and wife. Oh yes, I know. Been married 18 years and it just keeps getting better. Wandering from this intimacy can tear relationships apart and allow the enemy a foothold.
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phaze
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God works in mysterious ways. If he thinks a couple should have a child, who are we to prevent that?
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Don't be a doubting Thomas
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my savior leads me
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The Lord gave us a mind more sophisticated than any other mammal. now he expects us to use it. i believe that the marriage bed is sacred and that God does not have issues with birth control. he does have issues with abortion(i thought i had better clarify that as some people use abortion as a form of birth control.) these are issues that a couple needs to pray about together and discuss them together. now if the individuals are not married that is a whole other issue.
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"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" Romans 6:23
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Apollo
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posted
Brothers and Sister's in Christ, Blessing thru our Lord and Saviour Jesus.
It is written 'Do not tempt your Lord God'.
What does this equation represent? 1+1=2
Why do you feel that a process which God has made, should be put back into God's hands to undo?
Simply speaking, if you have sex on the right day, at the right time, and providing that there is not any fertility issues-there is a big chance that YOU WILL GET CONCEPTION.
Thus, is why God never commanded us to have sex everyday, nor did he say, it was wrong to pull out before ejaculation (a process which he allowed).
If God wanted us to have conception each time we had sex, we would have made us like most of the animals. Where they start ejaculating before entry, and also where the female only accepts sexual relations during her most fertile cycle.
The issue which is not okay is having SEX and asking 'God not to get you pregnant' on a consistence bases; sure, trust in Lord. Moreover, also trust in the laws that he has put into place that allows such a great blessing as to bring forth another one of his creations to enter into the world thru your bodies.
Don’t request that God undo the natural processes-which he has already placed available to you. Essentially requesting that 1+1=0, we are so wealthy in the fact that God's grace so greatly covers us, that even in a time of crisis he is with us-thru his son Jesus the Christ that hears our prayers, use those times of Grace for situations that are beyond your realm of responsibility.
A large part of pregancy is within our realm of God provided responsibility.
Blessings, Brother's and Sister's in Christ
Apollo
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leeprice
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I thank Jesus for being loving rather than legalistic! ![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif) ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
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7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
Matthew 7
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leeprice
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Oh, yes, those awful curses...
Well, I thank God for allowing Jesus to remove the defeat of death.
I thank God for allowing humans to develop vaccines and medications to ease the curse of disease and suffering.
I thank God for allowing humans to invent tractors and plows, not to mention air-conditioned offices, so that men may not have to sweat as much in a field and die from the hot sun.
I thank God for allowing humans to develop medical care for pregnant women and babies so that neither should have to die at birth.
And most of all, I thank my God for having mercy on us to ease our curses which we had deserved, but He took pity on us nevertheless.
Thank you LORD!
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7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
Matthew 7
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Producer Tim
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quote:
So far no one has given one Scripture in defense of birth control.
Any answer other than the Scriptures are humanistic reasoning!
Everything that has been said against birth control was humanistic reasoning just the same!
We live on Humanistic reasoning. We are not Gods so we can only "reason" like humans . So if somebody says they can "reason/think" like God, look in the merrier!
The bible does not have ANYTHING that strictly or directly says birth control anything about birth control, for it or not, its just not written. If it had been the issue of heaven or hell, WRONG or RIGHT, CLEAN or DIRTY, it would have been in there!
About the reasoning, only God can open the scripture. And God opens different things to different people. So if you know something that you feel like God has showed you that will be great for everyone to know, shure that’s cool, but don’t automatically think you are right and everyone ells is wrong. And one more thing, what you think the bible says is what you think. The facts are with God and the person, not the public!
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mikerica
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Light
Calm down. People have the right to say and think what they want. I know that you wouldn't like for somebody to call you a "suppose christian" just because they don't agree with you. It's a question of opinion not who's right and who's wrong. God ultimately has the final word and if the person really wants help then they should fast and pray about it.
![[youpi]](graemlins/youpi.gif)
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Mike and Erica
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helpforhomeschoolers
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How many of those third world countries are Christian? We are talking about Christian women, people who have agreed to His LORDSHIP over their lives.
In most third world countries like Africa where disease and famine and drought, and wild population growth are occuring are not under the Lordship of Jesus Christ, they are opressed by the evil one and under a curse! You look at the nations where paganism, hinduism, voodoo, and the like are the ruling religion and you see children being a burden on the society, the economy and the natural resources... but that is because Jesus is not Lord there. The conception of children has not been given over to His Lordship, in these countries children are being concieved outside of covenant marriage and raised in paganism. This is not the perfect will of a perfect God, these are examples of spiritual strongholds in an unseen realm!
Lordship does not equal Legalism and it never will. Let us compare apples to apples.
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JMJaneway
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You know breast feeding has for thousands of years been used as a form of birth control...although not a very effective one. But they still used it. The Women of Bible days were breast feeding thier children for several years. Today if you breast fed a child till they were 3 you would get stares and ugly comments but this was the norm and a lot of times in hopes to NOT concieve for a while.
I do think God expects us to listen for His guidance. I have had 2 very difficult pregnancies and am in no hurry for a third so until the time is right(and God will let me know) I am protecting my health and staying on the pill.
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becauseHElives
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posted
Kindgo,
GEN 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
GEN 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, ………..
The first command given to man & women after YEHWEH created them was to be fruitful and multiply.
The curse placed on man & woman in………
GEN 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
I will greatly multiply 1)to become many, become numerous, multiply
thy sorrow 1) pain, labour, hardship, sorrow, toil
and thy conception; 1) physical conception, pregnancy, conception
in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; 1) pain, hurt, toil, sorrow, labour, hardship
and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, 1) desire, longing, craving
and he shall rule over thee. 1) to rule, have dominion, reign
Agreed YEHWEH multiplied 2 things (sorrow and conception)
This does not change anything, this curse placed on man and women is still in affect today. This is evident in that the earth is still waiting for redemption (ROM 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
, we still toil for our bread, and thorns and thistles still exist.
16-19 The woman, for her sin, is condemned to a state of sorrow, and of subjection; proper punishments of that sin, in which she had sought to gratify the desire of her eye, and of the flesh, and her pride. Sin brought sorrow into the world; that made the world a vale of tears. No wonder our sorrows are multiplied, when our sins are so. He shall rule over thee, is but God's command, Wives, be subject to your own husbands. If man had not sinned, he would always have ruled with wisdom and love; if the woman had not sinned, she would always have obeyed with humility and meekness. Adam laid the blame on his wife; but though it was her fault to persuade him to eat the forbidden fruit, it was his fault to hearken to her. Thus men's frivolous pleas will, in the day of God's judgment, be turned against them. God put marks of displeasure on Adam.
1. His habitation is cursed. God gave the earth to the children of men, to be a comfortable dwelling; but it is now cursed for man's sin. Yet Adam is not himself cursed, as the serpent was, but only the ground for his sake.
2. His employments and enjoyments are embittered to him. Labour is our duty, which we must faithfully perform; it is part of man's sentence, which idleness daringly defies. Uneasiness and weariness with labour are our just punishment, which we must patiently submit to, since they are less than our iniquity deserves. Man's food shall become unpleasant to him. Yet man is not sentenced to eat dust as the serpent, only to eat the herb of the field.
3. His life also is but short; considering how full of trouble his days are, it is in favor to him that they are few. Yet death being dreadful to nature, even when life is unpleasant, that concludes the punishment.
Sin brought death into the world: if Adam had not sinned, he had not died.
He gave way to temptation, but the Saviour withstood it.
And how admirably the satisfaction of our Lord YESHUA, by his death and sufferings, answered the sentence passed on our first parents!
Did travailing pains come with sin? We read of the travail of Christ's soul, #Isa 53:11|; and the pains of death he was held by, are so called, #Ac 2:24|.
Did subjection came in with sin? Christ was made under the law, #Ga 4:4|.
Did the curse come in with sin? Christ was made a curse for us, he died a cursed death, #Ga 3:13|.
Did thorns come in with sin? He was crowned with thorns for us.
Did sweat come in with sin? He sweat for us, as it had been great drops of blood.
Did sorrow come in with sin? He was a man of sorrows; his soul was, in his agony, exceeding sorrowful.
Did death come in with sin? He became obedient unto death.
Thus is the plaster as wide as the wound. Blessed be God for his Son our Lord YESHUA our Saviour..
We say we trust YEHWEH, do we really or do we trust in our abilities our strengths.
Remember the children of Israel and the promise land.
Ten men were sent out to spy out the land.
8 said there were giants in the land, no way can we go in.
2 said we are well able, YEHWEH is with us.
Without Faith it is impossible to please YEHWEH.
Kindgo says children are a burden
YEHWEH says children are a blessing, blessed is the man whose quiver is full.
As for me and my house , we will serve the LORD
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
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posted
CEPHAS,
My point exactly,
Luke 6:37
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive,
and ye shall be forgiven:
With what measure we meet out to others, the same measure the LORD will use to meet back to us.
I am not legalistic, all come short of the LORDS expectations, and we strive for perfection, but will never attain perfection till we put off this body of flesh, but are our mind set of this world or the mind of the LORD.
The “Church” in the day we live judges the world for abortion, but the “Church” in the day we live, is guilty of the same sin in a lesser measure.
If you chose to judge those who have abortions, you should make sure you are not guilty of the same sin.
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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CEPHAS
Community Member
Member # 1463
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
So far no one has given one Scripture in defense of birth control.
Any answer other than the Scriptures are humanistic reasoning!
Ah yes, humanism, how satan uses it in the attempt to corrupt the perfect Word of GOD. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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Luke 6:37
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive,
and ye shall be forgiven:
In Christ,
CEPHAS
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art
unregistered
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posted
There are many things that we do that do not have a specific bible verse for or against.This is one of them.
We also go to a doctor when we are sick or injured.Are we to trust in the great physician only and not use doctors?Will calling for the elders of James 5 cure all? I don't think so.
Somehow, this topic leans toward legalism .
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Kindgo
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posted
I believe this is another form of legalism!
Read Galations 1. And remember that Paul told us that we are to work out our OWN salvation with fear and trembling before the Lord. Just because some women have been called to have many children doesent mean that we all have.
In Gen 3:16 the origional Hebrew says "He said to the woman, I will greatly increase your sorrow and your conception; .....". This, of course, is when God is handing down judgement for Adam and Eve's sin.
The rate at which women concieve today is apparently NOT what God intended in the beginning according to this scripture.
Our rate of possible monthly conception is PART OF THE CURSE!!!
WE were not origionally intended to have too many children. And we all know that too many children are a burden, no matter how much we may love them. Look at how many children are sold into slavery in this day and age in third world countries because they cant control how many children they have. They are birthing out more children then they can feed, clothe and house. This is for real folks, just do a bit of research on children in Africa alone.
Hey you all Please dont let others legalism and taking verses out of context guilt trip you in to having more children than is sensible for you to have!
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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leeprice
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Member # 1377
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posted
Genesis 2
"18 And Jehovah God saith, `Not good for the man to be alone, I do make to him an helper -- as his counterpart.'
19 And Jehovah God formeth from the ground every beast of the field, and every fowl of the heavens, and bringeth in unto the man, to see what he doth call it; and whatever the man calleth a living creature, that [is] its name."
Not good for the man to be ALONE. Honey, marriage is a cure for loneliness. That's every bit as legitimate as producing children. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
Matthew 7
Posts: 55 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2003
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leeprice
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Member # 1377
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posted
I COR 7
"7I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.
8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. "
Sounds like Paul wishes everyone would stay single. Gee, where would the babies come from then?
Luke 23:29
"For the time will come when you will say, 'Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!' "
Sound like Jesus acknowledged that there would be times when people would not want to bring a child into the world. I wouldn't want to have a child in this day and age.
Luke 8
"43 And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any,
44 Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched."
You know, Jesus didn't turn around and tell that poor woman that she should go have ten babies and that would heal her problem; no, He simply healed her Himself. This reminds me of when I first went to the doctor for endometriosis, and the stupid doctor told me that he didn't want to do a hysterectomy because I had no children. I told him that I had had miscarriage and that my body wouldn't work anyway. After much struggle, I was able to tell him how bad my symptoms were, and he has considered doing a thermal ablation. Thank God that Jesus didn't treat women like breeding mares.
Believe me, telling a sick woman to get pregnant is about as smart as telling a diabetic to eat more sugar.
Luke 11
"27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it."
Hmmm, I guess working for God is more important than having a bunch of babies.
Matthew 19
"11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."
It sounds like not everyone is made for marriage and children. I don't recall Jesus having any kids.
I am not writing this post to be hateful ; I just feel attacked when people condemn those of us who cannot or will not have children. I do not condemn people who want ten or twelve kids. Let them have them. It will make up for those of us who don't have kids.
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7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
Matthew 7
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
So far no one has given one Scripture in defense of birth control.
Any answer other than the Scriptures are humanistic reasoning!
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Producer Tim
Community Member
Member # 1456
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posted
quote:
Excellent post, Light. Producer Tim said, "So if you really think Birthcontroll is BAD you should only have sex when you want a child.[sic]" (Tim, I realize we're on the same side, I'm just using your comment to further my point.) Even only having sex when you want a child is still going agains the principles of no birth control. If someone wants God to control their family size, then that means that it isn't up to them to decide when they want a child, so they couldn't use that as a factor to determine when to have sex. To truly trust God to control your family size, you must have sex every day of your married life, excluding those days the wife is already pregnant (since you can't get "more pregnant" when you are already carrying a child). That way, every day that you're not already pregnant, God has a chance to make you so. Any other sex schedule takes the decision out of God's hands, right? And how many quiver full people believe that they should have sex every day just in case that's the day God chooses to give them a child? None that I know of. God gave me a brain to think with. I'm not really great at math, but I know that with a mortgage 4 months behind (on a very, very modest house, not a 5 bedroom palace), a car payment 2 months behind, several other bills waiting to be paid, car insurance coming due, putting food on the table, etc. that we could not afford another child at this time. We hope to have another one or two in the future, but right now I'm thankful that God gave us the technology to delay expanding our family until we can truly take care of another child. And if, before we think we're ready, God decides we are, then I have every faith that He could make that happen, even though I am on the pill. There are a number of ways he could do that, too. He could cause me to forget to take it, He could make it so we don't have the money to refill my prescription, He could convince me that I shouldn't take them anymore, or He could just have me get pregnant while I'm taking it like I've heard happen to other women. If God wants a child to be born, He CAN make it happen, even when He wants that child to be born to a certain couple at a certain time.
Hey I totally agree with you. I was just trying to say that when if are like, birth controll is bad because it doesnt give God the freedom and what ever. You are doing the excact same thing with out birthcontroll. It work this way. Want it or not but the person has the choice of a child (in most cases) Right!!?? if you say not than how come so maney 13-16 year olds get pregnent? So if you are maired but you try to stop a night of sx just to avoid a child you are doing the same thing as birthcontroll. The word Birth-Controll means controll birth and thats what you are trying to do!! As I already said God gives the person the freedon. If you belive its bad, hey thats your choice and you shouldnt do it, but that doesnt mean that it automaticly becomes bad! If you dont belive its bad, after you have done some reaserch to come to this. God is not going to judge you for it.
Posts: 7 | From: Alaska | Registered: May 2003
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helpforhomeschoolers
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posted
You know, the Israelites wanted an earthly king, and God wanted to be their king, and their God. The persisted and God gave them Judges, and Kings.
If we stamp our feet enough and want to have it our way, eventually God will let us have it our way, but our way is never without cost.
Sometimes we get in God's way; He has one plan for us, and we have another. Will he work within our plan??? to a point.
But I have learned that I want nothing to do with my plan... I want His plan. My plan always leads up a steep rocky road filled with peril, but His plan is perfect. There may be rocks still on the road, but if I am following His map and not mine, I will encounter only the rocks that he wants me to encounter.
God gave us sex, and not just for procreation; God gave us the desire for our husbands and the desire of our husbands for us. He made us to complete one another, if we turn over our sex life to God and let him be the Lord of it also, our sex life will be the best it can be, perfect because it is directed by Him, and the children that come, will come by His perfect will and His perfect timing not ours.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Miguel
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Member # 47
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posted
In my view, it does create a lot of damage in the female parts, so in one hand can be of great help and the other can cause permanent damage.
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
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