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Topic: Is our faith tested?
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Eden
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posted
dear bluefrog, this is where you need to be more flexible. You wrote quote:
It is so discouraging when a discussion begins on a subject and both or more parties are so sure that they are right that regardless of the information provided it is ignored. In this case about the Rapture, I have read and considered everything furnished to me but the same has not been afforded to me.
As for "the same has not been afforded to me". So what? Do what God asks you to do, and that's all that's needed. You continued: quote:
Furthermore, a good bit of the scripture given to me is suggesting that I am evil in my speak.
So what? It is not about you, it is about you "enduring". No matter what anyone says, keep saying what God tells you to say, and leave the rest up to God".
bluefrog, you continued quote:
In order to get the last word in, the door has been shut and the welcome mat taken in.
Well, yeah...but soon or later another one will be laid down again for you and for others...we all calm down again after our tempers have subsided and love overtakes offense again". You continued: quote:
I force myself on no one.
How "could" you "force yourself" on anyone? This is America. You have the right to write whatever and whenever you like, subject only to being banned by the owner of this site.
bluefrog continued with quote:
I didn't want to get into this in the first place because I know where it goes.
Of course you know where it goes and it is supposed to go there. God keeps bringing it up, He wants people to hear about it, even in our potentially "distorted versions" of it.
bluefrog also wrote quote:
We have had the rapture beat into our heads for so long and by many loving pastors who were taught rapture in seminary. I just don't get it, why that is.
I am responsible for myself with God.
I don't think it is a matter of it "being beat into our heads by pastors and others". Many of us have believed the "Rapture Theory" at one time or another but have decided later that scripture did not seem to back the "Rapture Theory" up. It is not that we were "being beaten over the head with it", I myself believed it for quite a while until I learned more about the scriptures and decided that the rapture would occur simultaneously with the Second Coming of Jesus. No shame in it, many of us believed it and many STILL believe the "Rapture Theory", like sister Found in Him and Betty Louise, for examples.
Then bluefrog finished with quote:
It's been a hoot, but lotsa doors are shut now.
As long as you realize that YOU are shutting your own doors. And personally, I think IT IS A LOT MORE FUN TO KEEP THE DOORS OPEN than "closing lotsa doors now".
love, Eden
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RWDavis
Community Member
Member # 7649
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posted
bluefrog,
I should have followed my first inclination to not use the word "test". Tests are more readily used, as you said, to find a person's level of ignorance and that in a society which applies ignorance as a fault of those who don't know rather than those who don't show.
My apologies.
Posts: 11 | From: Lewisport, ky | Registered: Mar 2009
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bluefrog
unregistered
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posted
RW DAVIS...Welllll, I read your script and don't see how you figure your issues are tests. I would call what you used as examples, ignorance.
There is a difference between a test and ignorance. A test shows ignorance.
Maybe if a board is started your comments would be appropriate if called:
Is our ignorance showing ?
rivit
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RWDavis
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posted
I only know of two tests of faith. There may be more.
The first test is failed when a man says he chose to be a believer, and ignores the meaning of grace (1Cor 4:7).
The second test is failed when a man says that faith distinguishes him from the unbeliever WHO DOES NOT RECIEVE THE GRACE FROM THE FOOL WHO THINKS HE WORKED OUT HIS OWN FAITH (James 2:14-17).
There's nothing a man can do to be saved (Malachi 2:1-3,10; Luke 23:34; 1John 2:2).
Salvation is a gift (1Cor 4:7), that why it comes by grace and not by works.
Our forefathers committed errors (Isaiah 8:18-20) which THEIR FAITH kept recorded in a covenant for our retrospect edification (1Cor 10:11).
"By (faith) the elders obtained a good report"
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"And these all having obtained the good report recieved not the promise."
"God having provided a better thing for us that they without us should not be made perfect."
Hebrews 11:2,39-40
As a matter of fact, Paul goes on to say that any one who claims that their salvation is without the fathers' precedent errors to be seen in hindsight are "..bastards and not sons (Heb 12:8)."
Jesus rebukes a generation of fools who think that if they had been in their fathers' generation they would not have killed the prophets, but their testimony in itself acknowledges they would not have heard of the prophets had their fathers not slain them in unbelief (Matthew 23:29-33).
"Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers."
Matt 23:32; 1Cor 10:11
Salvation coming by grace and not works is just a cute phrase among people who have been also taught to say they chose to believe, or that someone else has chosen to not believe the grace that is, ah, oh yeh, that's to deep for a chooser to think about (1Cor 4:7....)
Choosers do not know they are confessing their disbelief in grace, their seperation of themselves from both those who have acknowledged the grace of salvation and from those who have not yet heard.
Choosers in making their imaginary distinctions between the faith of the fathers in the child's reciept of hindsight instruction, and what the ignorant child thinkt up as his own interpretation of what faith means, assure that their empty faith they did not recieve by grace is dead and ends with their inability to put their fathers' faith to work through themselves to those who have not heard of the GRACE YET.
"..FAITH, IF IT HATH NOT WORKS, IS DEAD, BEING ALONE." James 2:17; 1Cor 4:7; 2Pet 3:7,10
Posts: 11 | From: Lewisport, ky | Registered: Mar 2009
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bluefrog
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posted
FOUND IN HIM...I'm glad you brought that subject up. I ask you...After reading about Abraham what is your first thought?
That being a sorta open question, I will try gooder to pin it down. Most people I have spoken to about the story is that they were puzzled and even upset that God would even do such a thing. Ladies especially, say that they can't help it, that it just seems cruel. It is definately a True Test for Anyone to do such a thing, but if you like, what is your feeling on this ?
Side note: I think this story paralells with the story about Jesus in a sort of way.
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Found in Him
Advanced Member
Member # 7596
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posted
Genesis 22
1And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
2And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
3And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his *** , and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.
4Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.
5And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the *** ; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.
6And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
7And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
8And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
9And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
10And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
11And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
13And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
14And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
15And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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bluefrog
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posted
EDEN...To me, the 2nd Coming and the catching up is at the same time, just like the scripture says.
The so-called Rapture is a name given another theory that Jesus will come at the beginning of the Trib. and catch up or gather up those alive on earth, which I do not agree with.
Does that answer your question?
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Eden
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posted
Dear bluefrog, to use a "word" used by Found in Him, I was "disappointed to see you write the following, which IMO DOES make you are "rapture theorist"?
Please explain. dear bluefrog, WHEN do YOU think the "catching up to be with the Lord in the air forever" will happen?
For my information, do YOU believe that the "catching up" will happen at about the same time as the Second Coming, or not?
Thanks, Eden
"He's coming again"
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Eden
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posted
Hi, sister Found in Him, you wrote quote:
Don't worry the rapture will happen one day. We will hear the trumpet and we will join Jesus in the air. Until then, don't let anyone discourage you.
What would she be "discouraged" about? Tell me, please, Found in Him, [b]if the rapture did not happen until the Second Coming, would it really make a difference"?
Or do you think that it is inappropriate to "ignore scriptures which IYO teach that the church is taken up at the start of a 7-year tribulation period"?
Let me ask you, Found in Him, let's say that the church WAS taken up at the start of a 7-year tribulation period, would that not also REVEAL in WHAT YEAR the Second Coming WOULD BE?
And, do you not agree that the Bible says that the TIMING of the Second Coming WILL NOT BE KNOWN to men, not even to Christians, or am I wrong about that?
love, Eden
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Found in Him
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
FoundInHim,
Don't worry the rapture will happen one day. We will hear the trumpet and we will join Jesus in the air. Until then, don't let anyone discourage you.
![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif)
betty
![[rapture]](graemlins/rapture.gif) buh-bye hehehe...
Our God is Faithful Sister Betty! He needs no one to defend Him or His words does He?-- He will show um! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
Posts: 1503 | Registered: Jan 2009
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bluefrog
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posted
There is something special about being part of those left during the Tribulation. The bible says so.
I'm gonna try to explain it and you can read the scriptures that back it up.
Upon the crystal sea before the throne, that sea of glass, as it were, mingled with fire-with the Glory of God, are gathered the company that have "gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name. They are singing the Song of Moses.
These having been translated from the earth from among the living, are counted as "the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb. Rev. 14:4, Rev. 15:2-3, Rev. 14:1-5. These are they which came out of the great tribulation. They passed the test through the time of trouble like never before, they endured the time of Jacob's trouble; they stood without an intercessor through the final outpouring of God's judgements.
But they have been delivered, for they have Washed their Robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
They have seen the earth wasted with famine and pestilence, the sun scorching folks, and they themselves having endured suffering, hungries, and thirst. But all will get gooder. The Lamb in the midst of the throne will give them all they need and wipe their tears. Rev 7:14-17.
They love much because they have been forgiven much. Having been partakers of Christ's sufferings, they are fitted to be partakers with Him of His glory.
They stand before the throne clad in richer robes than the most honored of earth have ever worn.
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Betty Louise
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posted
Jesus is coming in the Second Coming to go to war against the anti-Christ. It stands to reason that the Church will be caught up in the rapture and not caught up in the Second Coming. We join Jesus in the Heavens not on the ground.
I will not argue anymore with you. You believe what you want. I believe what I have learned from 5 studies on the end times.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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bluefrog
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posted
BETTY LOUISE....You said that this (1 Thes 4:16) sure sounds like being caught up is rapture to me.
Yes, Yes, Yes, it does. But not in the sense that one uses the word Rapture, meaning BEFORE the Lord returns to the earth. Before the Tribulation. But, you see it is all told in the verse.
"The Lord Himself" shall "descend from heaven"
with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP OF GOD; and "the dead" in Christ shall rise first.
Next verse:
Then "WE WHICH ARE ALIVE" "AND REMAIN" shall be "CAUGHT UP" together "WITH THEM" in the clouds , to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
You see, The Lord is coming here from heaven and He will raise the spirits of the dead first, which are Christians,in Abrahams bossom.
Then, the Christians who are alive and remain are going to be caught up all together in our spiritual bodies with them in the crowd or throng or witnesses (Heb 12:1), and we are gonna be there forever. Please Note: The dead are already there...Not So in the Pre Trib Theory.
Those who think they will be flown up before the Tribulation call it rapture which is what being caught up means but the timing is not the same as the 2nd coming as in the above scriptures.
This is so hard for some to catch on to. Was for me too.
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Betty Louise
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posted
FoundInHim,
Don't worry the rapture will happen one day. We will hear the trumpet and we will join Jesus in the air. Until then, don't let anyone discourage you.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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bluefrog
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posted
FOUND IN HIM...I am so sorry, but wherever you are getting your references, they are so mixed up. That is so sad. I could take each one and clear it up but I know you don't want that.
If you really wanted to, you could find out what I mean by that. I have given you the ammo to shoot it down. With your ignoring it there is no purpose.
To each his/her own.
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Betty Louise
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posted
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)
"This verse really seems to be implying that there will be a group of saints who are going to "caught up" or pulled up to meet the Lord in the air while we are still alive! Those words spell possible Rapture to me."
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I agree with this author.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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Found in Him
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posted
quote:
It was suggested that I get my trumpets in order.
That the last trumpet will be the last "trumpet call" of God for His people, not the seventh trumpet. Then verses were offered to prove it:
Please read:
THIS IS THE FIRST RECORDED TRUMPET CALL OF GOD:
Ex 19 Exd 19:16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the VOICE OF THE TRUMPET exceeding loud; so that all the people that [was] in the camp trembled.
THE LAST TRUMPET CALL:
1 Corinthians 15:51-53
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed- in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMPET. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality."
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
"Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have not hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel AND WITH THE TRUMPET CALL OF GOD, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."
JESUS CHRIST is THE FIRST AND THE LAST IN ALL THINGS right??
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a TRUMPET, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, THE FIRST AND THE LAST: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
JESUS CHRIST IS The Trumpet call of God, THE FIRST TRUMPET CALL---AND THE LAST TRUMPET CALL.
Who is blowing this trumpet?:
Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices shouting in heaven: "The whole world has now become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign forever and ever."
I await the trumpet "call" of My Lord!
quote:
Then it was suggested that the Lord has not appointed His people to wrath.
It's His word bluefrog.
1Thessalonians 1:10
"...and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead - Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."
Revelation 3:10
"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth".
Rom 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!
1Th 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
The Tribulation period is God's time to deal with Israel and a time of pouring forth of His wrath.
He will come for those who are waiting and watching for Him...
Peace bluefrog.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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bluefrog
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posted
It is so discouraging when a discussion begins on a subject and both or more parties are so sure that they are right that regardless of the information provided it is ignored. In this case about the Rapture, I have read and considered everything furnished to me but the same has not been afforded to me.
Furthermore, a good bit of the scripture given to me is suggesting that I am evil in my speak.
In order to get the last word in, the door has been shut and the welcome mat taken in.
I force myself on no one. However, I have noticed interest in this subject by others as well, therefore I will respond to the last comments for their sake.
It was suggested that I get my trumpets in order.
That the last trumpet will be the last "trumpet call" of God for His people, not the seventh trumpet. Then verses were offered to prove it:
Exodus 19.....I find no relation to the subject.
1Thes 4:16....For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
***OK, the seventh trump, the last trump has sounded and the DEAD IN CHRIST shall rise first.
But let's go to:
1Thes 4:17...Then WE WHICH ARE ALIVE, AND REMAIN, shall be caught up TOGETHER with THEM in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
****First, the Tribulation, then the Trump, then the dead are raised and those which are alive are raised with them. (the clouds are crowds as around a throng)
1 Cor 15:52...In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
****This needs no comment.
Then it was suggested that the Lord has not appointed His people to wrath.
Rev 7:14-17 v14)And I said unto him, "Sir, thou knowest." And he said to me, "These are they which came OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
v15-17 I will save for you to read yourself.
****I happen to know more about these and why they are there, etc but my point is made in V14.
Here are just a couple more scriptures I have run across.
Rev 14:1-5 and:
Rev 15:2-3 v2) And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire:(purity) and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over the image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having harps of God.
v3) I save for you to read. But if you want to know the Song of Moses go to Deut 32:1-43.
I didn't want to get into this in the first place because I know where it goes. We have had the rapture beat into our heads for so long and by many loving pastors who were taught rapture in seminary. I just don't get it, why that is.
I am responsible for myself with God.
It's been a hoot, but lotsa doors are shut now.
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Found in Him
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posted
One more thing bluefrog... Please get your trumpets right! The last trumpet will be the last "trumpet call" of God for HIS people NOT the seventh trumpet.
(Exodus 19) (1 Thes. 4:16)(1 Corinthians 15:52) Trumpet call of God.
Rosh Hashanah (Yom Ha-Zikkaron) Leviticus 23:24-25
I say again, The Lord has Not appointed His people to wrath.
I really am done talking about this now.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
Posts: 1503 | Registered: Jan 2009
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Found in Him
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posted
bluefrog wrote...The bible says we will be gathered up but when Jesus returns at the 7th trump., not before....
Sad.
Why watch, pray and be ready then bluefrog? This Makes no sense and is not the command of The Lord! There is no comfort, hope, joy, expectation, or MOST importantly Preparedness in your teaching.
In fact, it encourages folks to sit back and wait for things to get worse because God will leave them among those that He's gonna pour His wrath out on anyways. Why not just live as the heathen, heck, you have till the seventh trumpet right?
Jesus said...In such an hour you think not!
The days are marked TO THE EXACT NUMBER for The Tribulation period. Think on that.
I will continue to wait for Jesus, in expectation of The One who delivers me from the coming wrath. He is faithful, and will deliver.
Acts 1
10They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back IN THE SAME WAY you have seen him go into heaven."
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1"Do NOT let your hearts be troubled. TRUST in God; trust also in me. 2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and TAKE you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
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Matthew 24
36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37But as the days of Noah were, SO SHALL the coming of the Son of man be.
38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that NOAH ENTERED into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be TAKEN, and the other left.
41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be TAKEN, and the other left.
42WATCH therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as YE THINK NOT the Son of man cometh.
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1 Thessalonians 5
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a THIEF in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and THEY shall not escape.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us WATCH and be sober.
7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of SALVATION.
9For God hath NOT appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep,(whether we are still alive or are dead) we should live together WITH him.
11Wherefore COMFORT yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
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The Lord makes a way of escape for His people! His wrath is poured out on the heathen-- Not His own.
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Regarding:
quote:
If you wish to see what I mean I will provide you with some scriptures below, but it is best you read the scriptures from your own bible. If you have any questions I will be happy to try and answer them.
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost...
He really is The Best Teacher.
...and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.
28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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bluefrog
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![[type]](graemlins/type.gif) FOUND IN HIM...I was never good at tests.
I always thought every question was a trick question. Even when I studied hard I still was never comfortable.
As for this test, I may have to wait and see way down the road.
Hugs,
Disciple Frog
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bluefrog
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![[wave3]](graemlins/18.gif) EDEN...Subject: Is our faith tested?
You can bet your boots we are tested.
Yes, I certainly do believe that not only I will be caught up by Christ at the 7th trump but so will everyone else ALIVE on earth, everyone.
Your comment about people driving and flying most likely will not be happening during the tribulation. It is gonna be Hell on Earth. Also, no flesh can go to heaven. The bodies will remain and made into toast.
The tribulation will last for 5 months, not 7 years, it was changed in Revelations.
Me thinks your idea about figuring the date when Christ will return as being 7 years from the Rapture, even if it was true would be the least of their worries. Their priority will be how to survive at that moment. If some make it it surely will be a surprise when Jesus returns. So, like you said, that is another reason the rapture doesn't work.
Fact is, you can still call the Second Coming the Rapture but when you say Rapture, most are speaking of the Pre-Tribulation gathering. It is confusing too, because if you say you don't believe in the Rapture most think you are saying you don't believe Christ is coming back.
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bluefrog
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The Rapture, as was initiated by Margaret McDonald in 1830 in Europe. The "any moment" doctrine was started in the Catholic Church.
Mrs. McDonald saw a vision in a dream, which was common for her, but said it was Evil.
Of course I believe that Jesus will return as is refered to as the 2nd Coming and gather up the saints, but at the end of the Tribulation. Why call that the Rapture? It is called the Rapture because those believe it means the gathering up at the Beginning of the Tribulation.
The whole idea that came from the dream was that she saw the saints at the Beginning of the Tribulation period brought up into heaven so as to not have to suffer the terrible things that were going to happen. In the early 1900's the teachings were adopted by a few of the Christian Churches and now some teach it and some don't.
When I speak of the Rapture, the above is what I am talking about, nothing more. Few call the rapture the Gathering Up also, but at the same time as above, to miss out on the tribulations.
The bible says we will be gathered up but when Jesus returns at the 7th trump., not before.
The bible does teach about it but in a negative way, i.e., to avoid it and be aware of it.
If you wish to see what I mean I will provide you with some scriptures below, but it is best you read the scriptures from your own bible. If you have any questions I will be happy to try and answer them.
1 Cor 15:33-58
Eccles: 12:7 (Note: the dead are already there)
Rev 11:11-15 (Note: Cloud, angelic hosts)
2 Cor 5:1-10
1 Thes 4:15-17(Note: the dead are still there)
Hebrews 12:1 (Note: Cloud, crowd of witnesses)
*The first letter confused the Thesalonians.
2 Thes 2:1-12 (Note: falling away means Apostasy)
Matt 24:3
Mark 13:1-27 (Note: v10, published means proclaimed.)
Amos 8:11
Rev 3:10 (Note: temptation means trial,only here)
Heb 2:14 (Note: death, spiritual death)
Rev 2:8-10 (Note: Smyrna was accepted)
Ezek 13:18-23 (Note: To cover Christ's arms)
Mark 13:17 (Note: woman with child not spiritual virgin but bride of Satan)
I made a comment earlier, that this wasn't that important anyway. I was wrong, because it really is. What I should have said was that if you are strong in your faith this shouldn't cause you to loose your salvation. Going back over all this again, I'm not too sure. It is going to be rough for those alive at the time, and it won't be 7 years it will be 5 months.
Notes: Mark of the beast on forhead: believing
Mark of the beast on hand: works
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becauseHElives
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Amen quote:
Betty Louise .... Staying faithful to the end is not only for the tribulation, but for every Christian. A great start in the faith and losing heart at the end will make for a Christian with many tears at the judgment seat of Christ.
Amen quote:
Found in Him ....I would too agree that "endure to the end" is for all disciples for the entirety of this age, (grace age) No question about that.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto good works."
bluefrog the scriptures you sited are for every believer in every generation,
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Eden
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We both got A's from our Teacher, sis, accompanied by the words, "well done...you have both rightly divided the Word of God".
love, Eden
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Found in Him
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This is quite interesting.
When you two disciples are done with your rapture, tribulation and end of days essays, can I see the grade that you get from The Teacher???
After all, it is His text book isn't it??
![[crying]](graemlins/crying.gif)
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Eden
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Hi, bluefrog, you wrote quote:
Is all this because of the Rapture Theory?
I thought Found in Him's response was priceless, but I did want to make sure that you believe IN A rapture or "being caught up with the Lord into the air", right?
But when you mean "rapture theory", you are speaking of the idea that the church is caught up 7 years before the Second Coming and then all the cars on the freeway which HAD Christians in them were banging up against the freeway, and all the planes with the Christian pilot and co-pilot that was not on auto-pilot, went down in a big crash onto the earth.
bluefrog, when you refer to the "rapture theory", that's the one you are referring to, when the church supposedly gets caught up exactly 7 years prior to the Second Coming?
And now that I write this, you know what is wrong with that "rapture theory"? If it were true that we would go "exactly 7 years" BEFORE the Second Coming, and then people would be able to figure out exactly WHEN the Second Coming WOULD BE, and that also constradicts the Bible which says that the "Lord will come as a thief in the night so be ready".
But you DO believe in A rapture right, just no longer in the so-called "rapture theory"?
love, Eden
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Eden
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bluefrog wrote quote:
EDEN...I agree with you on all of your issues.
The plagues were endused by God.
We will be here if for nothing else to glorify God during the tribulation.
All the pain and suffering during the trib will be worse than ever before. but we will be protected.
Yes, we will be caught up at the last trump and changed if we are alive, to meet the Lord.
I agree, we must always watch and be aware. In those days you can bet your boots we will be on watch. Remember....the time will be shortened for the sake of the chosen?
And don't forget our speaking for the Lord.
OMG. Miracles have NOT ceased.
love, Eden
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Found in Him
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quote:
Originally posted by bluefrog:
FOUND IN HIM....Thank You ! And I definitely respect your opinions, and always have. Like I said, up until about 4 years ago I would have been right at you side on this issue.
I can't see that it makes a great deal of difference for the strong believer because whatever happens they will know where to turn.
Now, you want to talk about the Millinnium ? Just Kidding !!!!!
Hugs!
Hi bluefrog,
I have to say that I would disagree on whether or not it makes a difference ![[Frown]](frown.gif) (Ephesians 4:1-16)(Acts 2:42-47)
Millennium? Ahhh can't wait for that Kingly 'Reign'!
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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bluefrog
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FOUND IN HIM....Thank You ! And I definately respect your opinions, and always have. Like I said, up until about 4 years ago I would have been right at you side on this issue.
I can't see that it makes a great deal of difference for the strong believer because whatever happens they will know where to turn.
Now, you want to talk about the Millinnium ? Just Kidding !!!!!
Hugs!
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Found in Him
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bluefrog wrote...As for 1 Thes 5:2 read on to verse 8...same story.
You referenced to Luke 21:28..ok, now back up to v6 and read to v 28.
You referenced to Rev 22:20, now back up and read from v17.
bluefrog, I respect the fact that you have studied for 40 years, but please understand that I'm not a one verse Charlie either.
I'm afraid that we just don't agree about this
I gobble truth based on how God interprets scripture to me-- not the traditions or teaching of man. Although I honor men of God-- I'm instructed to search the scriptures for myself.
The hope of The Lord's return to yes, "rescue" His Bride in my mind's eye envelopes every scripture pertaining to the "caught up" event that occurs before Jacob's trouble.
The wrath that is to come here is God's judgment on the unbelieving world and His discipline of Israel during the tribulation.
I believe in incorporating the Entire word of God on every belief too. This does add up for me. He is Savior Jesus ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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bluefrog
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On the subject of: Is our faith tested?" and about the 2nd coming:
Keeping watch to the heavens for the return of Christ is a great way of putting what Jesus is saying but some feel it means to go out and peer into the sky day and night, which we don't do, so that isn't what he meant because He doesn't tell us to do what we can't do. So, what does it mean then? Simple as it may seem it tells us in the scriptures exactly what it means.
It says not to assume that the Lord is not coming back for some time way off, like 7 years, so just do as you please, get all tanked up or find yourself in a place you shouldn't be. Don't get caught in your neighbors bedroom closet when the husband is out trying to find food or whatever...??? Don't be telling yourself "Well, I'll make amends later, etc"
Because first thang ya know...He is Risen.
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bluefrog
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BETTY LOUISE....The only mystery I find in the rapture theory is why it is being taught. The second coming is the truth. Why call that a rapture and why move it to a pre-tribulation ?
I can only guess why but I will keep it to myself.
SWEET PEA....I am sorry, we have six cats so you are out voted, but you can come here. What's another cat ? Well, we have a dog too but she has learned to get over it.
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bluefrog
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FOUND IN HIM....For the past 40 years I have been told of the rapture. It didn't fit. I just couldn't buy it because without someones twisting the facts it just didn't work.
So much for that, I told you I didn't wanna get into this.
In the bible there are instances where you can relate one story to another. For example the story about Abraham and about Jesus. The same applies to the story about the wrath on Egypt and the wrath to come from God on the lost when He returns. That is what Eden and I were agreeing on.
Rapture Theory is a common term.
Of course, no one is looking forward to trying to survive through the tribulation period. But Jesus tells us that some will be here when it takes place and of the chosen it will not be so bad. He even changed the length of time from seven years to 5 months for the sake of the chosen. However, even if the world is not a 5 star place to be we still have look forward to what is most important...the Second Coming.
The meaning in Matt 24:44 is defined in verses 49-51, it is not an actual looking up it is looking upward inwardly.
As for 1 Thes 5:2 read on to verse 8...same story.
You referenced to Luke 21:28..ok, now back up to v6 and read to v 28.
You referenced to Rev 22:20, now back up and read from v17.
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Found in Him
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My Mother loved the Gaithers...I do too.
Yes I am looking up myself too. I think we're suppose to right? ![[dance]](graemlins/dance1.gif)
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Betty Louise
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I got to go to The Gaithers Concert last night. They sang about the rapture last night. You are so right, I am so looking forward to the rapture.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Found in Him
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quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
The rapture is a mystery, only God knows the day and the hour. The Second Coming is not a mystery. Seven years after the signing of the peace agreement with Israel and the anti-Christ comes back, Jesus comes with the Church riding on white horses to rule victorious over the earth. This is why the rapture is pre-trib.
Bluefrog, Mr. Niveons says hello and sweet pea the cat ask if you would take Mr. Niveons, home with you. She is so jealous.
betty
How I love my Sister Betty! What a blessed hope we have! He LOVES us and I know awaits in anticipation for the hour His Father says: "Go get her"
Please tell Sweet pea that she can come to my home and visit if she get's to jealous. I will love her up
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Betty Louise
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The rapture is a mystery, only God knows the day and the hour. The Second Coming is not a mystery. Seven years after the signing of the peace agreement with Israel and the anti-Christ comes back, Jesus comes with the Church riding on white horses to rule victorious over the earth. This is why the rapture is pre-trib.
Bluefrog, Mr. Niveons says hello and sweet pea the cat ask if you would take Mr. Niveons, home with you. She is so jealous.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Found in Him
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Theory? How disappointing!
The flaw in your logic is that the tribulation period is not a time of persecution or plagues on "Egypt" Rather, it is a time of God's WRATH being out poured on the earth.
During this time people shall cry to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?" (Revelation 6:16-17).
When Christ returns, "He treads the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty" (Revelation 19:15). - for God has appointed His Church to salvation and not to wrath. Surely the day of the Lord will be terrible (Malachi 4:5)!
Certainly as Christians we look not for tribulation, but for--"His Son from heaven who has delivered us from the wrath to come" (I Thessalonians 1:10)
The early Church expected the coming of the Lord imminently and did not expect any intervening events, especially the Thessalonians (Matthew 24:44; I Thessalonians 5:2) I too will continue in their belief.
Just as Noah and his family were saved from God's wrath (Genesis 7:6-7), as was Lot and his daughters (Genesis 19:14), and indeed the Children of Israel were saved from the plagues on Pharaoh (Exodus 7:18; 8:3, 21-22; 9:3-4; 10:22-23; 11:6-7), so too the Church WILL be saved from the coming great tribulation by the rapture (catching away)
The Christian is commanded to look up - for their redemption draws near (Luke 21:28)! What can be said but..
"Amen. Come, Lord Jesus." (Revelation 22:20)
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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bluefrog
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EDEN...I agree with you on all of your issues.
The plagues were endused by God.
We will be here if for nothing else to glorify God during the tribulation.
All the pain and suffering during the trib will be worse than ever before. but we will be protected.
Yes, we will be caught up at the last trump and changed if we are alive, to meet the Lord.
I agree, we must always watch and be aware. In those days you can bet your boots we will be on watch. Remember....the time will be shortened for the sake of the chosen?
And don't forget our speaking for the Lord.
FOUND IN HIM...you asked, Where is the encouragement ?
I am pretty shocked that you ask such a thing.
1 Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
v15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent (go or come before) them which are asleep.
v16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
v17 Then we which are alive, and remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds (see Heb 12:1) to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
v18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
EDEN....I join you in the issues of looking forward with encouragement, love, hope, eagerness, expectations and preparedness.
FOUND IN HIM...Jesus has not left us, you know that. I don't understand why you would say that Eden is wrong for good reason.
We are all waiting for our Savior, and for all the reasons you claim we don't have.
Is all this because of the Rapture Theory ?
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Found in Him
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Eden...I said what did about you being "wrong" for good reason. Jesus said He would never LEAVE us or forsake us. Most Christians are eagerly awaiting our Savior from Heaven as the bible INSTRUCTS us to do.
...and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ (Phl 3:20)
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Eden
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Hi, Found in Him, you wrote, to Eden quote:
Ya know whats wrong with what you're sayin?...
Where is the encouragement?
Where is the love?
Where is the hope?
Where is the eagerness?
Where is the expectation?
Where is the preparedness?
Eden here: Uhh, you almost sound "Michael Harrisonish" by saying "you know what is WRONG with what YOU are saying" (LOL), but why do you think I participate on this bbs? Do you think I can write what I'm writing without any preparation, without any love for unsaved people, without hope that I may perhaps save one?
I have ALL of the things that you mention above, Found in Him. I participate on this bbs for myself, as sitting by a nice fire in the hearth of God, but I also sit here and spend much time and energy to try to convince and/or help someone who may be in one of our electronic pews ... perhaps even an unsaved person...
love, Eden
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Found in Him
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Ya know whats wrong with what you're sayin?...
Where is the encouragement?
... Therefore encourage one another with these words. (1 Thess 4)
Where is the love?
...and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing. (2 Tim 4:8)
Where is the hope?
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ...(Titus 2:13)
Where is the eagerness?
But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ (Phl 3:20)
Where is the expectation?
and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead-Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. (1Th 1:10 )
Where is the preparedness?
Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the **** crowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch! (Mark 13:35-37)
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Eden
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Found in Him wrote quote:
well, leaves little reason to watch, pray and be you ready then I guess.
With my version of events, namely, that the end time events will happen as in Egypt and in the land of Goshen at the time just before the Exodus, it will also happen in today's world, and for that reason there will be PLENTY of reason to watch, pray and be ready, I think.
love, Eden
"I thank You for the Mercy Seat"
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Eden
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Just before the Exodus, there were a lot plagues, at the end of which the Israelites came out of Egypt. Egypt of those days represented the world today, and the Israelites of those days are the Christians of today. So go figure.
Exodus 14:8
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel; and the children of Israel went out with a high hand.
I think God will keep us here to show His glory to the earth through the church. But the year before the EXODUS the Israelites WERE MISTREATED by the Egyptians WHILE the plagues were going on.
And then with a high hand the LORD led the Israelites out IN ONE DAY, and they were out:
Exodus 12:41
And it came to pass at the end of the 430 years, on the very same day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt.
God will LEAVE us here on earth to show forth His glory TO the earth THROUGH His church, just as God did with the Israelites in Egypt, WHICH IS OUR PATTERN.
1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
So we as the church should probably look for some PLAGUES to come upon "Egypt", which today represents "the world".
And when the PLAGUES come on "Egypt", then the "Israelites" in the land of Goshen, who today are the "Christians", were PERSECUTED:
Exodus 5
21 And they {the Israelites} said to them {Moses and Aaron}, The LORD look upon you and judge; [b]because you have made our savor to be abhorred in the eyes of Pharaoh and in the eyes of his servants, to put a sword in their hand to slay us.
In any case, I think the LORD will LEAVE US here on earth to the very end when we are caught up with the Lord in the air, which will be OUR EXODUS, being caught up with Him in the air:
1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed.
1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
love, Eden
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Found in Him
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well, leaves little reason to watch, pray and be ye ready then I guess.
Leaves simple faith with little hope.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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bluefrog
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hehehe, I knew better than to get into this..
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I will also keep thee from the hour of temptation (trial-Gk peirasmos) which shall (is about to) come upon all the world to try (test- Gk peirazo) them that dwell upon the earth.
As for preaching the gospel to all nations, I suppose that we still have a long way to go. Even in the U.S. we still have millions to preach to. When that has happened God will know.
The tribulation is a display of the Wrath of God and to open the eyes of the lost to the truth. If it is not too late to be saved then I don't understand but that is up to God.
Judgement comes at the end of tribulation.
I'm not going to get into the millinnium, but if some are saved that could be when. I have heard so much debate about the Mil I don't even want to think about it.
The powerful delusions are not for the end times they are for anyone any time who God determines are hopeless.
The two witnesses are the sign of the end of the tribulation. We can only guess who they are.
Anyway, that's my two bits.
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Found in Him
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Hi Bluefrog!....
I would too agree that "endure to the end" is for all disciples for the entirety of this age, (grace age) No question about that. But I also believe that just as Jesus said this gospel shall be preached in every nation as a witness--Then shall the end come. Gospel preached to all nations = End. With modern day technology we can see that the gospel is being preached in the farthest corners of The Earth via satellite, internet ect. I believe it's just about a wrap up personally.
The tribulation period is a time of wrath and judgment for the world. Judgment on these kinda folks:
2 Thess 2 They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
No one can seem to convince me that we will be left here to preach to the spirit of the anti-christ freaks. Paul said God will send a powerful delusion so that they will believe a lie...Why would He have people preach to them then????
I do believe that there will be people saved in the tribulation period-- but not as the result of man's testimony or preaching. I believe The Lord has His own plan for that but I don't believe it involves The Body of Christ. Why? Because this is wrath time and He said we are not appointed to it.
When reading he account of the two witnesses in Revelation 11 I see two super empowered witnesses impacting an entire world. Two witnesses appointed for that time.
Revelation 3:10 says that this "test" is for the world. We are in it now-- but not of it.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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bluefrog
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posted
Tell Mr Nivens "wooff" for me.
I'm not all that worried about Christians keeping the faith now. According to the scriptures it is going to become a tough test during the trib period. First, there will be people saying Christ is back, Christ is there,
stuff like that, then the anti-christ (In place of Christ) will show up. It says that people will be finding him and turning in their relatives and so on thinking they are turning them over to Christ at the last minute to be saved, but of course Jesus has not returned yet.
Christians will be turning to the anti-christ also not being aware of the scriptures warnings.
Obviously, there will be many who will remain obediant to God and sit it out for the 5 month period (in place of the 7 year period) for the sake of the chosen. It is doubtful if I will be here when all this takes place, but if I am I sure want to know what's goin on.
So, is our faith tested? Me thinks Yep !
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Betty Louise
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posted
Staying faithful to the end is not only for the tribulation, but for every Christian. A great start in the faith and losing heart at the end will make for a Christian with many tears at the judgment seat of Christ.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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