quote:

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Michael, I believe that our faith is tested.......and the Word of God is the measuring rod.

If you do not believe that our faith is tested, that is where you and I stand in strong contrast.

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oneinchrist, let's say that I have faith that Jesus has come to dwell IN me, and that I recognize that Jesus is far smarter than me.

If I then say, Okay Jesus, YOU take over the reins of my vessel and YOU LIVE YOUR life in me, instead of me. Isn't that the meaning of the following verse?

Galatians 2
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.

Now, let's say that Jesus sits in the driver's seat and I have faith that He is a Better Driver than me, then where would my faith be tested?

Maybe when He took a sharp corner that I was not expecting and MY faith in MY driving ability comes back up, as in, "I could have done that better than He did", and THAT would have constituted a "test of my faith", when I try to take over the reins of my life again, instead of...letting Jesus drive while i admire His Driving Skills from the passenger seat! But there'd be TIMES.....!!!

love, Eden
have faith in the
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Peter speaks of our faith being tested by fire and of its preciousness. (1 Peter 1:7 NKJV)

Then a little later he says to those to whom he wrote, "Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you." (1 Peter 4:12 NKJV)

James goes so far as to say, "My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing." (James 1:2-4 NKJV)

"Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him." (James 1:12 ESV) Remember love equals obedience.
 

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Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Good Morning Eden,
My reply to you would be similar to my reply to Michael. The Holy Spirit is our "helper", not our "do-it-all-er". It leaves room for us to respond in faith/put on courage in challenging/adverse circumstances........now if that isnt testing.....then I dont know what is.
Ive seen it in scripture and I've experienced it personally. Michael, you, or anyone else cannot convince me that there is not testing. In fact, the times in my life where I really felt God was no where around are times that I believe that God was really putting me to the test for what I say that I believe in.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 

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Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on :
 
Amen Daniel! Looks like the testing and trials produced some patience and integrity in you! God is the potter, we are the clay. He will mold men of honor fit for the kingdom! Men conformed to the image of His Son!
 

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Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :
 
One in Christ....Well put.

Found in Him.....You too.

Eden...You keep using the illustration where Christ climbs into your body and you step out.
Please consider some figures of speech here.

You weren't actually crucified physically with Christ. You aren't dead physically with Christ in your body. The scripture goes on to say, "the life which I now live" doesn't mean you were physically dead but spiritually. Christ is not your driver. Do you really think that Christ tells you when and how to turn a corner or when to hit the brakes?
 

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Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi again Eden,
I was in a hurry this morning, but I came back to review your post again . Yes, I would certainly agree with you in your proposed example of testing that you provided.......about the temptation to "take over the reigns of our own life". The reason that I agree with that example of testing is because I believe that in the overall scheme of things the testing of our faith reveals where we are really putting our trust.....whether it is in the Lord, His word, His spirit, and His will or whether it is in the world and its agenda. Now Eden, please understand that I mean this in a general sense..........for we know that we Christians still deal with sin in our lives, but that does not mean that half of our heart is devoted to God and the other half is devoted to the world.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 

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Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :
 
EDEN...Subject: Is our faith tested?

Try this on for size:

Ex 16:4 Then said the Lord to Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the People shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in My law, or no.

Note: As you know they messed up again.

V20) Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank; and Moses was wroth with them. (Opps! Failed that test)

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation; for when he is tried (tested), he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love Him.

Note: tests are tried for purification, to demonstrate that a certain quality exists in you. They are not used to cause you to fail.

If a feller desires an appointment in leadership he must be tested:

1 Timothy 3:10 And let these also be proved (tested) ; then let them use the office as a deacon, being found blameless.

Me thinks that according to the scriptures testing is for the good of the Christian.
 

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Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
okay, thanks for those scriptures, bluefrog.

Let's look at one of those scriptures:

James 1:12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he is tried (tested), he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to them who love Him.

The ones who LOVE Him will receive the crown. And thus their "temptation" and being "tried" would have to do with ... what? Something that would result in me "not loving Him", right?

Let's look up James 1:12 in the Concordance:

Mar 14:38 Watch ye 1127 and 2532 pray 4336 , lest 3363 ye enter 1525 into 1519 temptation 3986. The spirit 4151 truly 3303 [is] ready 4289, but 1161 the flesh 4561 [is] weak 772.

Luk 4:13 And 2532 when the devil 1228 had ended 4931 all 3956 the temptation 3986, he departed 868 from 575 him 846 for 891 a season 2540.

James 1:12 Blessed 3107 [is] the man 435 that 3739 endureth 5278 temptation 3986: for 3754 when he is tried 1384 1096 , he shall receive 2983 the crown 4735 of life 2222, which 3739 the Lord 2962 hath promised 1861 to them that love 25 him 846.

Strong’s Concordance

temptation 3986

3986 peirasmos; a putting to proof (by experiment (of good), experience (of evil), solicitation, discipline or provocation); by implication, adversity:--temptation, X try.

tried 1384 1096[/b]

1381. dokimazo, from 1384; to test (literally or figuratively); by implication, to approve:--allow, discern, examine, X like, (ap-)prove, try.

1382. dokime, from 1384; test (abstractly or concretely); by implication, trustiness:--experience(-riment), proof, trial.

1384. dokimos, from 1380; properly, acceptable (current after assayal), i.e. approved:--approved, tried.

In any case, it appears that all these “experiences” have to do with taking our love AWAY from Jesus and PUTTING our love on other things, because the ones who end up with the crown of life are those who LOVE Him. So the trials of life would be those that cause us to “no longer love Him”.

Just as Lucifer-Satan's temptations were to take Jesus's love away from His Father and put His love in alliance with Lucifer-Satan:

Luke 4:13 And 2532 when the devil 1228 had ended 4931 all 3956 the temptation 3986, he departed 868 from 575 him 846 for 891 a season 2540.

Love, Eden
 

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Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :
 
EDEN...Subj: Is our faith tested?

You said: And thus their "temptation" and being "tried" would have to do with....what?

The frog says: It's not taking our love away from Jesus and putting it on other things. It is more like praising God by showing your faith in Him. See the above scriptures again.
 

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Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Good Morning Eden,
I like the verse that you chose from the book of James and how it relates so specifically to your initial topic. I guess then that your question would be answered in that verse.........yes, it is tested.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 

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Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on :
 
I Peter 1:6-7,"In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ "

Genesis 22:1-2 Abraham was willing to obey, but God stayed his hand to spare the boy's life.

" But He knows the way that I take; When He has tested me, I shall come forth as gold."Job 23:10

Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. "
 

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Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :
 
God gave instructions to Moses that God would furnish food for the Jews. Specific instructions were given. They did not follow the instructions so they failed through carelessness as usual.

The men wanting to be a deacon are given tests on their life styles to see if they are qualified to be a leader. This test is given to each potential deacon thru the ages. Some pass the test, some don't.

The above message by Found In Him has some additional information on the subject.

I read these scriptures to say:

1. We may be tested in our Christian walk, and by passing the test we respectfully display our faith or trust in God.

2. If a person wishes to serve in a leadership position in the church they must pass a test designed for such a responsibility.

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that ENDURETH temptation; for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love Him.
Note: Endureth (Gr Hypomeno) verb form of the word Patience:
James 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh PATIENCE.

Man may look on tragedy as the curse of God, as Jobs friends did,. Trials are however the means through which God's blessing can come.

We aren't to look for avenues to escape, but there can be one.

God desires that we mature in the situation rather than move from it.

Romans 5:3-5 v3)And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also; knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
v4) And patience, experience, and experience, hope;
v5) And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

1 Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man; but God is faithful, Who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Now, Eden, Let me ask you why you are even concerned about "not loving him"? The Lord is telling us about testing. Passing the tests is the issue here, not failing it. Can't never did do anything. Yes, the scripture says that if we endure the test we shall receive the crown of life. I don't think it is necessary to question the result if we fail is it ? It is all about HIM anyway and this is just another way to glorify Him.
 

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Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Hi, oneinchrist, I wanted to tell you that what I appreciate is that, when all is said and done after "Eden, what are you trying to prove?", you have a sweet and kind and reconciling spirit. And I like that about you.

oneinchrist, you wrote

quote:

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Good Morning Eden ... I guess then that your question would be answered in that verse.........yes, it is tested.

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Hi, oneinchrist, yes I do think that the Biblical pattern is that God tested the faith of all who thought that they were "listening to God" or to "whom God had appeared", like Abram and Sarai.

And likewise God has "appeared to us" thru His Son Jesus, and thereafter God also "tests us" to see if we "still love Him" or "if our affections have gone elsewhere in the meantime".

But also, God YHWH and God Jesus are CONSTANTLY LISTENING AND LOOKING AT US supposedly CHRISTIANS, to see what it is that we are actually doing...

Does so-and-so say that he is a Christian but he continues to listen to NON-Christian music? What lesson do you think God YHWH and God Jesus are drawing from THAT bit of information?

Or does so-and-so say that she is a Christian but she continues to read NON-Christian-related books like a good murder mystery or romance novel? What lesson do you think God YHWH and God Jesus are drawing from THAT bit of information?

God YHWY and God Jesus will conclude that "they are JUST NOT THAT MUCH INTO THEM".

Is our faith tested? Absolutely. Do husbands test their wife's faith in them? Absolutely. And do wives test their husband's faith in them? Absolutely.

And so does God test His Bride's faith in Him. Just as we test God's faith in His Bride?

love, Eden
 

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Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :
 
Eden....Subj: is our faith tested?

You made a comment that got me to thinking:

And so does God test His Brides faith in Him, Just as we test Gods faith in His Bride.

It was the "We test Gods faith in His Bride" that I guess I had never heard before.

This is the closest thing I can come up about that. Christians are encouraged to "test and approve what God's will is." By doing that, our minds are renewed to match God's thinking.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed (patterned) to this world; but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Then I got to thinking about "temptations" again.

I discovered again that God can not be Tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone with evil. But if we are tempted by the enemy with evil it can be a good opportunity to choose right from wrong and thus strengthen our life spiritually.

James 1:2 My brethern, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
v3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
v4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
 

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Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :
 
Subj: is our faith tested ?

I just ran across a faith testing scripture today that might be worth discussing:

Matthew 10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and king for MY SAKE , for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
v19 But when they deliver YOU up, take NO THOUGHT how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be GIVEN YOU in this same hour WHAT YE SHALL SPEAK.

Ya know what ? This is a pretty incredible thing that the Lord is telling us here. He is saying that we will be His spokesman. One providing a voice for Him. Wow !
v20 For it is not ye that speak, but the SPIRIT of your Father Which SPEAKETH IN YOU.

This a message from the Lord when and if you are one of those that this happens too, so if you are here around the end of the tribulation period with all the suffering and things going on can you pass the test ?
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
good thoughts bluefrog , trust and obey comes to my mind.....victory is ours when we trust and obey.....

When we walk with the Lord in the light of His Word,
What a glory He sheds on our way!
While we do His good will, He abides with us still,
And with all who will trust and obey.

Refrain

Trust and obey, for there’s no other way
To be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey.

Not a shadow can rise, not a cloud in the skies,
But His smile quickly drives it away;
Not a doubt or a fear, not a sigh or a tear,
Can abide while we trust and obey.

Refrain

Not a burden we bear, not a sorrow we share,
But our toil He doth richly repay;
Not a grief or a loss, not a frown or a cross,
But is blessed if we trust and obey.

Refrain

But we never can prove the delights of His love
Until all on the altar we lay;
For the favor He shows, for the joy He bestows,
Are for them who will trust and obey.

Refrain

Then in fellowship sweet we will sit at His feet.
Or we’ll walk by His side in the way.
What He says we will do, where He sends we will go;
Never fear, only trust and obey.

Refrain
 

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Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on :
 
bluefrog writes...Ya know what ? This is a pretty incredible thing that the Lord is telling us here. He is saying that we will be His spokesman. One providing a voice for Him. Wow !
v20 For it is not ye that speak, but the SPIRIT of your Father Which SPEAKETH IN YOU.



Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Act 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel...

Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and [so is] also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. When they heard [that], they were cut [to the heart], and took counsel to slay them.

Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord...

His Bride has been tested and tried for over 2000 years...

Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven...

Rev 3:10 Because you have obeyed my command to endure, I will keep you from the hour of testing that is coming to the whole world to test those living on the earth....
 

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Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :
 
As this kept running through my mind, I was wondering....When the Spirit finds us in a situation where we need to speak up for the Lord when asked a question do we respond of our own thinking or that of the Spirit ? Do we give the Spirit time or the ability to speak through us ?
Have we even considered such a thing? Most of us are aware of the scriptures in the book of Matthew (above)but is it possible that it is talking about now, today, next week...?

I'm going to hate myself for bringing this up, but according to Matthew 10:18-19, believers are here to speak for the Spirit. If that is so, and it is speaking of end times, and Christ has not returned (2nd Coming)yet, then how could He have come already and taken the elect? That is a problem that I guess will haunt some of us for a long time. Sorry, I didn't mean to change the subject. Now, back to testing. God Bless.
 

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Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on :
 
bluefrog...what makes you think that those verses are for the tribulation period? The Holy Spirit came and filled the disciples to be spokesmen- witnesses. Such as we all are who are His.
 

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Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :
 
FOUND IN HIM....That is a good question, and I asked the same thing once. The answer didn't come easy. In this puzzle the answer is found in the word (Greek-telos) for end. If it meant in their dispensation it would have been (Greek- sunteleia).

Not convinced? Go to Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for My names sake; but he that endureth to the end (telos)shall be saved.
Note: What a time leap !)

Still not convinced? Go to Mark 13 and read it all, but pay attention when you get to v11, 12:
v11)But,when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye; for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
v12Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
Notes: Saints still hangin around with no where to go just yet....

This is the grabber...in v22 of Matthew, Jesus was telling them stuff but He knew that the Jews would not repent so the word "end" no longer meant "sunteleia" but "telos". Whew !
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Staying faithful to the end is not only for the tribulation, but for every Christian. A great start in the faith and losing heart at the end will make for a Christian with many tears at the judgment seat of Christ.
betty
 

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Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :
 
Tell Mr Nivens "wooff" for me.

I'm not all that worried about Christians keeping the faith now. According to the scriptures it is going to become a tough test during the trib period. First, there will be people saying Christ is back, Christ is there,
stuff like that, then the anti-christ (In place of Christ) will show up. It says that people will be finding him and turning in their relatives and so on thinking they are turning them over to Christ at the last minute to be saved, but of course Jesus has not returned yet.
Christians will be turning to the anti-christ also not being aware of the scriptures warnings.
Obviously, there will be many who will remain obediant to God and sit it out for the 5 month period (in place of the 7 year period) for the sake of the chosen. It is doubtful if I will be here when all this takes place, but if I am I sure want to know what's goin on.

So, is our faith tested? Me thinks Yep !
 

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Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on :
 
Hi Bluefrog!....

I would too agree that "endure to the end" is for all disciples for the entirety of this age, (grace age) No question about that. But I also believe that just as Jesus said this gospel shall be preached in every nation as a witness--Then shall the end come. Gospel preached to all nations = End. With modern day technology we can see that the gospel is being preached in the farthest corners of The Earth via satellite, internet ect. I believe it's just about a wrap up personally.

The tribulation period is a time of wrath and judgment for the world. Judgment on these kinda folks:

2 Thess 2 They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

No one can seem to convince me that we will be left here to preach to the spirit of the anti-christ freaks. Paul said God will send a powerful delusion so that they will believe a lie...Why would He have people preach to them then????

I do believe that there will be people saved in the tribulation period-- but not as the result of man's testimony or preaching. I believe The Lord has His own plan for that but I don't believe it involves The Body of Christ. Why? Because this is wrath time and He said we are not appointed to it.

When reading he account of the two witnesses in Revelation 11 I see two super empowered witnesses impacting an entire world. Two witnesses appointed for that time.

Revelation 3:10 says that this "test" is for the world. We are in it now-- but not of it.
 

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Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :
 
hehehe, I knew better than to get into this..

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I will also keep thee from the hour of temptation (trial-Gk peirasmos) which shall (is about to) come upon all the world to try (test- Gk peirazo) them that dwell upon the earth.

As for preaching the gospel to all nations, I suppose that we still have a long way to go. Even in the U.S. we still have millions to preach to. When that has happened God will know.

The tribulation is a display of the Wrath of God and to open the eyes of the lost to the truth. If it is not too late to be saved then I don't understand but that is up to God.

Judgement comes at the end of tribulation.

I'm not going to get into the millinnium, but if some are saved that could be when. I have heard so much debate about the Mil I don't even want to think about it.

The powerful delusions are not for the end times they are for anyone any time who God determines are hopeless.

The two witnesses are the sign of the end of the tribulation. We can only guess who they are.

Anyway, that's my two bits.
 

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Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on :
 
well, leaves little reason to watch, pray and be ye ready then I guess.

Leaves simple faith with little hope.

 

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Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Just before the Exodus, there were a lot plagues, at the end of which the Israelites came out of Egypt. Egypt of those days represented the world today, and the Israelites of those days are the Christians of today. So go figure.

Exodus 14:8
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel; and the children of Israel went out with a high hand.

I think God will keep us here to show His glory to the earth through the church. But the year before the EXODUS the Israelites WERE MISTREATED by the Egyptians WHILE the plagues were going on.

And then with a high hand the LORD led the Israelites out IN ONE DAY, and they were out:

Exodus 12:41
And it came to pass at the end of the 430 years, on the very same day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt.

God will LEAVE us here on earth to show forth His glory TO the earth THROUGH His church, just as God did with the Israelites in Egypt, WHICH IS OUR PATTERN.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So we as the church should probably look for some PLAGUES to come upon "Egypt", which today represents "the world".

And when the PLAGUES come on "Egypt", then the "Israelites" in the land of Goshen, who today are the "Christians", were PERSECUTED:

Exodus 5
21 And they {the Israelites} said to them {Moses and Aaron}, The LORD look upon you and judge; [b]because you have made our savor to be abhorred in the eyes of Pharaoh and in the eyes of his servants, to put a sword in their hand to slay us.

In any case, I think the LORD will LEAVE US here on earth to the very end when we are caught up with the Lord in the air, which will be OUR EXODUS, being caught up with Him in the air:

1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

love, Eden
 

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Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Found in Him wrote

quote:

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well, leaves little reason to watch, pray and be you ready then I guess.

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quote:

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Ya know whats wrong with what you're sayin?...

Where is the encouragement?
Where is the love?
Where is the hope?
Where is the eagerness?
Where is the expectation?
Where is the preparedness?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Betty Louise:
The rapture is a mystery, only God knows the day and the hour. The Second Coming is not a mystery. Seven years after the signing of the peace agreement with Israel and the anti-Christ comes back, Jesus comes with the Church riding on white horses to rule victorious over the earth. This is why the rapture is pre-trib.

Bluefrog, Mr. Niveons says hello and sweet pea the cat ask if you would take Mr. Niveons, home with you. She is so jealous.
betty

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How I love my Sister Betty! What a blessed hope we have! He LOVES us and I know awaits in anticipation for the hour His Father says: "Go get her"


Please tell Sweet pea that she can come to my home and visit if she get's to jealous. I will love her up

 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
I got to go to The Gaithers Concert last night. They sang about the rapture last night. You are so right, I am so looking forward to the rapture.
betty
 

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Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on :
 
My Mother loved the Gaithers...I do too.

Yes I am looking up myself too. I think we're suppose to right?
 

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Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :
 
FOUND IN HIM....For the past 40 years I have been told of the rapture. It didn't fit. I just couldn't buy it because without someones twisting the facts it just didn't work.

So much for that, I told you I didn't wanna get into this.

In the bible there are instances where you can relate one story to another. For example the story about Abraham and about Jesus. The same applies to the story about the wrath on Egypt and the wrath to come from God on the lost when He returns. That is what Eden and I were agreeing on.

Rapture Theory is a common term.

Of course, no one is looking forward to trying to survive through the tribulation period. But Jesus tells us that some will be here when it takes place and of the chosen it will not be so bad. He even changed the length of time from seven years to 5 months for the sake of the chosen. However, even if the world is not a 5 star place to be we still have look forward to what is most important...the Second Coming.

The meaning in Matt 24:44 is defined in verses 49-51, it is not an actual looking up it is looking upward inwardly.

As for 1 Thes 5:2 read on to verse 8...same story.

You referenced to Luke 21:28..ok, now back up to v6 and read to v 28.

You referenced to Rev 22:20, now back up and read from v17.
 

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Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :
 
BETTY LOUISE....The only mystery I find in the rapture theory is why it is being taught. The second coming is the truth. Why call that a rapture and why move it to a pre-tribulation ?
I can only guess why but I will keep it to myself.

SWEET PEA....I am sorry, we have six cats so you are out voted, but you can come here. What's another cat ? Well, we have a dog too but she has learned to get over it.
 

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Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :
 
On the subject of: Is our faith tested?" and about the 2nd coming:

Keeping watch to the heavens for the return of Christ is a great way of putting what Jesus is saying but some feel it means to go out and peer into the sky day and night, which we don't do, so that isn't what he meant because He doesn't tell us to do what we can't do. So, what does it mean then? Simple as it may seem it tells us in the scriptures exactly what it means.

It says not to assume that the Lord is not coming back for some time way off, like 7 years, so just do as you please, get all tanked up or find yourself in a place you shouldn't be. Don't get caught in your neighbors bedroom closet when the husband is out trying to find food or whatever...??? Don't be telling yourself "Well, I'll make amends later, etc"
Because first thang ya know...He is Risen.
 

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Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on :
 
bluefrog wrote...As for 1 Thes 5:2 read on to verse 8...same story.

You referenced to Luke 21:28..ok, now back up to v6 and read to v 28.

You referenced to Rev 22:20, now back up and read from v17.

bluefrog, I respect the fact that you have studied for 40 years, but please understand that I'm not a one verse Charlie either.

I'm afraid that we just don't agree about this



I gobble truth based on how God interprets scripture to me-- not the traditions or teaching of man. Although I honor men of God-- I'm instructed to search the scriptures for myself.

The hope of The Lord's return to yes, "rescue" His Bride in my mind's eye envelopes every scripture pertaining to the "caught up" event that occurs before Jacob's trouble.

The wrath that is to come here is God's judgment on the unbelieving world and His discipline of Israel during the tribulation.

I believe in incorporating the Entire word of God on every belief too. This does add up for me. He is Savior Jesus
 

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Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :
 
FOUND IN HIM....Thank You ! And I definately respect your opinions, and always have. Like I said, up until about 4 years ago I would have been right at you side on this issue.

I can't see that it makes a great deal of difference for the strong believer because whatever happens they will know where to turn.

Now, you want to talk about the Millinnium ? Just Kidding !!!!!

Hugs!
 

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Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on :
 

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Originally posted by bluefrog:
FOUND IN HIM....Thank You ! And I definitely respect your opinions, and always have. Like I said, up until about 4 years ago I would have been right at you side on this issue.

I can't see that it makes a great deal of difference for the strong believer because whatever happens they will know where to turn.

Now, you want to talk about the Millinnium ? Just Kidding !!!!!

Hugs!

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Hi bluefrog,
I have to say that I would disagree on whether or not it makes a difference (Ephesians 4:1-16)(Acts 2:42-47)

Millennium? Ahhh can't wait for that Kingly 'Reign'!
 

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Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
bluefrog wrote

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EDEN...I agree with you on all of your issues.

The plagues were endused by God.
We will be here if for nothing else to glorify God during the tribulation.
All the pain and suffering during the trib will be worse than ever before. but we will be protected.
Yes, we will be caught up at the last trump and changed if we are alive, to meet the Lord.
I agree, we must always watch and be aware. In those days you can bet your boots we will be on watch. Remember....the time will be shortened for the sake of the chosen?
And don't forget our speaking for the Lord.

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Is all this because of the Rapture Theory?

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I thought Found in Him's response was priceless, but I did want to make sure that you believe IN A rapture or "being caught up with the Lord into the air", right?

But when you mean "rapture theory", you are speaking of the idea that the church is caught up 7 years before the Second Coming and then all the cars on the freeway which HAD Christians in them were banging up against the freeway, and all the planes with the Christian pilot and co-pilot that was not on auto-pilot, went down in a big crash onto the earth.

bluefrog, when you refer to the "rapture theory", that's the one you are referring to, when the church supposedly gets caught up exactly 7 years prior to the Second Coming?

And now that I write this, you know what is wrong with that "rapture theory"? If it were true that we would go "exactly 7 years" BEFORE the Second Coming, and then people would be able to figure out exactly WHEN the Second Coming WOULD BE, and that also constradicts the Bible which says that the "Lord will come as a thief in the night so be ready".

But you DO believe in A rapture right, just no longer in the so-called "rapture theory"?

love, Eden
 

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Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on :
 
This is quite interesting.

When you two disciples are done with your rapture, tribulation and end of days essays, can I see the grade that you get from The Teacher???

After all, it is His text book isn't it??


 

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Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
We both got A's from our Teacher, sis, accompanied by the words, "well done...you have both rightly divided the Word of God".

love, Eden
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Amen

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Betty Louise .... Staying faithful to the end is not only for the tribulation, but for every Christian. A great start in the faith and losing heart at the end will make for a Christian with many tears at the judgment seat of Christ.

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Found in Him ....I would too agree that "endure to the end" is for all disciples for the entirety of this age, (grace age) No question about that.

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2 Timothy 3:16-17

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto good works."

bluefrog the scriptures you sited are for every believer in every generation,
 

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Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :
 
The Rapture, as was initiated by Margaret McDonald in 1830 in Europe. The "any moment" doctrine was started in the Catholic Church.
Mrs. McDonald saw a vision in a dream, which was common for her, but said it was Evil.

Of course I believe that Jesus will return as is refered to as the 2nd Coming and gather up the saints, but at the end of the Tribulation. Why call that the Rapture? It is called the Rapture because those believe it means the gathering up at the Beginning of the Tribulation.

The whole idea that came from the dream was that she saw the saints at the Beginning of the Tribulation period brought up into heaven so as to not have to suffer the terrible things that were going to happen. In the early 1900's the teachings were adopted by a few of the Christian Churches and now some teach it and some don't.

When I speak of the Rapture, the above is what I am talking about, nothing more. Few call the rapture the Gathering Up also, but at the same time as above, to miss out on the tribulations.
The bible says we will be gathered up but when Jesus returns at the 7th trump., not before.

The bible does teach about it but in a negative way, i.e., to avoid it and be aware of it.

If you wish to see what I mean I will provide you with some scriptures below, but it is best you read the scriptures from your own bible. If you have any questions I will be happy to try and answer them.

1 Cor 15:33-58
Eccles: 12:7 (Note: the dead are already there)
Rev 11:11-15 (Note: Cloud, angelic hosts)
2 Cor 5:1-10
1 Thes 4:15-17(Note: the dead are still there)
Hebrews 12:1 (Note: Cloud, crowd of witnesses)
*The first letter confused the Thesalonians.
2 Thes 2:1-12 (Note: falling away means Apostasy)
Matt 24:3
Mark 13:1-27 (Note: v10, published means proclaimed.)
Amos 8:11
Rev 3:10 (Note: temptation means trial,only here)
Heb 2:14 (Note: death, spiritual death)
Rev 2:8-10 (Note: Smyrna was accepted)
Ezek 13:18-23 (Note: To cover Christ's arms)
Mark 13:17 (Note: woman with child not spiritual virgin but bride of Satan)

I made a comment earlier, that this wasn't that important anyway. I was wrong, because it really is. What I should have said was that if you are strong in your faith this shouldn't cause you to loose your salvation. Going back over all this again, I'm not too sure. It is going to be rough for those alive at the time, and it won't be 7 years it will be 5 months.

Notes: Mark of the beast on forhead: believing
Mark of the beast on hand: works
 

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Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :
 
EDEN...Subject: Is our faith tested?

You can bet your boots we are tested.

Yes, I certainly do believe that not only I will be caught up by Christ at the 7th trump but so will everyone else ALIVE on earth, everyone.

Your comment about people driving and flying most likely will not be happening during the tribulation. It is gonna be Hell on Earth. Also, no flesh can go to heaven. The bodies will remain and made into toast.

The tribulation will last for 5 months, not 7 years, it was changed in Revelations.

Me thinks your idea about figuring the date when Christ will return as being 7 years from the Rapture, even if it was true would be the least of their worries. Their priority will be how to survive at that moment. If some make it it surely will be a surprise when Jesus returns. So, like you said, that is another reason the rapture doesn't work.

Fact is, you can still call the Second Coming the Rapture but when you say Rapture, most are speaking of the Pre-Tribulation gathering. It is confusing too, because if you say you don't believe in the Rapture most think you are saying you don't believe Christ is coming back.
 

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Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :
 
FOUND IN HIM...I was never good at tests.
I always thought every question was a trick question. Even when I studied hard I still was never comfortable.

As for this test, I may have to wait and see way down the road.

Hugs,
Disciple Frog
 

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Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on :
 
bluefrog wrote...The bible says we will be gathered up but when Jesus returns at the 7th trump., not before....

Sad.

Why watch, pray and be ready then bluefrog? This Makes no sense and is not the command of The Lord! There is no comfort, hope, joy, expectation, or MOST importantly Preparedness in your teaching.
In fact, it encourages folks to sit back and wait for things to get worse because God will leave them among those that He's gonna pour His wrath out on anyways. Why not just live as the heathen, heck, you have till the seventh trumpet right?

Jesus said...In such an hour you think not!

The days are marked TO THE EXACT NUMBER for The Tribulation period. Think on that.

I will continue to wait for Jesus, in expectation of The One who delivers me from the coming wrath. He is faithful, and will deliver.


Acts 1
 10They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back IN THE SAME WAY you have seen him go into heaven."
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 1"Do NOT let your hearts be troubled. TRUST in God; trust also in me. 2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and TAKE you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

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Matthew 24
36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
 37But as the days of Noah were, SO SHALL the coming of the Son of man be.
 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that NOAH ENTERED into the ark,
 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be TAKEN, and the other left.
 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be TAKEN, and the other left.
 42WATCH therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
 43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
 44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as YE THINK NOT the Son of man cometh.
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1 Thessalonians 5
 1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a THIEF in the night.
 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and THEY shall not escape.
 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
 5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
 6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us WATCH and be sober.
 7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
 8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of SALVATION.
 9For God hath NOT appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
 10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep,(whether we are still alive or are dead) we should live together WITH him.
 11Wherefore COMFORT yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
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The Lord makes a way of escape for His people! His wrath is poured out on the heathen-- Not His own.
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Regarding:

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If you wish to see what I mean I will provide you with some scriptures below, but it is best you read the scriptures from your own bible. If you have any questions I will be happy to try and answer them.

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It was suggested that I get my trumpets in order.
That the last trumpet will be the last "trumpet call" of God for His people, not the seventh trumpet. Then verses were offered to prove it:

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Then it was suggested that the Lord has not appointed His people to wrath.

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It's His word bluefrog.

1Thessalonians 1:10
"...and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead - Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."

Revelation 3:10
"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth".

Rom 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

1Th 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.


The Tribulation period is God's time to deal with Israel and a time of pouring forth of His wrath.

He will come for those who are waiting and watching for Him...



Peace bluefrog.
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

"This verse really seems to be implying that there will be a group of saints who are going to "caught up" or pulled up to meet the Lord in the air while we are still alive! Those words spell possible Rapture to me."


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I agree with this author.
 

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Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :
 
FOUND IN HIM...I am so sorry, but wherever you are getting your references, they are so mixed up. That is so sad. I could take each one and clear it up but I know you don't want that.

If you really wanted to, you could find out what I mean by that. I have given you the ammo to shoot it down. With your ignoring it there is no purpose.

To each his/her own.
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
FoundInHim,

Don't worry the rapture will happen one day. We will hear the trumpet and we will join Jesus in the air. Until then, don't let anyone discourage you.

betty
 

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Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :
 
BETTY LOUISE....You said that this (1 Thes 4:16) sure sounds like being caught up is rapture to me.

Yes, Yes, Yes, it does. But not in the sense that one uses the word Rapture, meaning BEFORE the Lord returns to the earth. Before the Tribulation. But, you see it is all told in the verse.

"The Lord Himself" shall "descend from heaven"
with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP OF GOD; and "the dead" in Christ shall rise first.

Next verse:
Then "WE WHICH ARE ALIVE" "AND REMAIN" shall be "CAUGHT UP" together "WITH THEM" in the clouds , to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You see, The Lord is coming here from heaven and He will raise the spirits of the dead first, which are Christians,in Abrahams bossom.
Then, the Christians who are alive and remain are going to be caught up all together in our spiritual bodies with them in the crowd or throng or witnesses (Heb 12:1), and we are gonna be there forever. Please Note: The dead are already there...Not So in the Pre Trib Theory.

Those who think they will be flown up before the Tribulation call it rapture which is what being caught up means but the timing is not the same as the 2nd coming as in the above scriptures.

This is so hard for some to catch on to. Was for me too.
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Jesus is coming in the Second Coming to go to war against the anti-Christ. It stands to reason that the Church will be caught up in the rapture and not caught up in the Second Coming. We join Jesus in the Heavens not on the ground.
I will not argue anymore with you. You believe what you want. I believe what I have learned from 5 studies on the end times.
betty
 

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Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :
 
There is something special about being part of those left during the Tribulation. The bible says so.

I'm gonna try to explain it and you can read the scriptures that back it up.

Upon the crystal sea before the throne, that sea of glass, as it were, mingled with fire-with the Glory of God, are gathered the company that have "gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name. They are singing the Song of Moses.

These having been translated from the earth from among the living, are counted as "the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb. Rev. 14:4, Rev. 15:2-3, Rev. 14:1-5. These are they which came out of the great tribulation. They passed the test through the time of trouble like never before, they endured the time of Jacob's trouble; they stood without an intercessor through the final outpouring of God's judgements.
But they have been delivered, for they have Washed their Robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

They have seen the earth wasted with famine and pestilence, the sun scorching folks, and they themselves having endured suffering, hungries, and thirst. But all will get gooder. The Lamb in the midst of the throne will give them all they need and wipe their tears. Rev 7:14-17.

They love much because they have been forgiven much. Having been partakers of Christ's sufferings, they are fitted to be partakers with Him of His glory.

They stand before the throne clad in richer robes than the most honored of earth have ever worn.
 

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Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on :
 

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Originally posted by Betty Louise:
FoundInHim,

Don't worry the rapture will happen one day. We will hear the trumpet and we will join Jesus in the air. Until then, don't let anyone discourage you.

betty

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buh-bye hehehe...

Our God is Faithful Sister Betty! He needs no one to defend Him or His words does He?-- He will show um!
 

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Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Hi, sister Found in Him, you wrote

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Don't worry the rapture will happen one day. We will hear the trumpet and we will join Jesus in the air. Until then, don't let anyone discourage you.

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It is so discouraging when a discussion begins on a subject and both or more parties are so sure that they are right that regardless of the information provided it is ignored. In this case about the Rapture, I have read and considered everything furnished to me but the same has not been afforded to me.

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Furthermore, a good bit of the scripture given to me is suggesting that I am evil in my speak.

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In order to get the last word in, the door has been shut and the welcome mat taken in.

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I force myself on no one.

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I didn't want to get into this in the first place because I know where it goes.

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We have had the rapture beat into our heads for so long and by many loving pastors who were taught rapture in seminary. I just don't get it, why that is.
I am responsible for myself with God.

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It's been a hoot, but lotsa doors are shut now.

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