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Topic: What part of God's FREE GIFT is NOT FREE?
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Eden
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quote:
EDEN...I must [say] that I haven't learned how to read the Greek Dictionary. Seldom go there.
I don't read the Greek Dictionary either and never go there. I go to www.eliyah.com and click on Strong's Concordance in the lefthand column, and then type in the word "natural", and it brings up all the occurrences of "natural" in the Bible. I don't use a Greek "dictionary" but a Greek/Hebrew "concordance" at www.eliyah.com. It's free to use. Great Bible tool.
bluefrog, you also said quote:
So, it sounds like the reference to Natural man, psykikos was incorrect and did not mean phychological man. Am I right?
Okay, bluefrog. "psuchikos" is the adjective of "psuche" and "psuche" is the Greek equivalent of "nephesh" or "creature" in the Hebrew Old Testament (OT).
When the Hebrew OT was translated into Greek in Alexandria somewhere around 250 B.C., the word "nephesh" is translated by "psuche".
You may recall our earlier discussion about man becoming a "nephesh hayya" in Genesis 2:7, which the KJV translated as "living soul". And further, that all animals also were called "nephesh hayya" or "living creatures" in Genesis 1.
So whenever the translators of the Hebrew/Aramaic OT into Greek for the Greek Septuagint version, and whenever the translators saw "nephesh" they translated it as "psuche".
So the Greek New Testament says that we are "psuchikos", or "natural", but more probably it means "living creature". So Paul says that our current body is "psuchikos":
1 Corinthians 15
44 It is sown a natural {Greek, psuchikos} body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural {Greek, psuchikos} body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul {a living "psuche" same as "nephesh hayya" or "living creature" in the OT}; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural {Greek, psuchikos}; and afterward that which is spiritual.
So to summarize, bluefrog, psuchikos comes from "psuche" and "psuche" is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew "nephesh" or "creature".
love, Eden
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bluefrog
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EDEN...That was very kind of you to look that up for us.
I must that I haven't learned how to read the Greek Dictionary. Seldom go there.
So, it sounds like the reference to Natural man, psykikos was incorrect and did not mean phychological man. Am I right ?
Sounds like my bible dictionary had it right. It being Psuchikos, meaning what again ?
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Eden
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bluefrog, these lines of yours made me laugh: quote:
"Also, my bible translates "Natural" man to be "psuchikos" in Greek but I can't find it in my Greek dictionary in the concordance. But I don't think it means phychological. A natural man is a guy who does things that embarasses his wife in public n' stuff.
Strong's Concordance: natural
1 Corinthians 2:14 But 1161 the natural 5591 man 444 receiveth 1209 not 3756 the things 3588 of the Spirit 4151 of God 2316: for 1063 they are 2076 foolishness 3472 unto him 846: neither 2532 3756 can 1410 he know 1097 [them], because 3754 they are spiritually 4153 discerned 350.
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown 4687 a natural 5591 body 4983; it is raised 1453 a spiritual 4152 body 4983. There is 2076 a natural 5591 body 4983, and 2532 there is 2076 a spiritual 4152 body 4983.
1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit 235 that [was] not 3756 first 4412 which is spiritual 4152, but 235 that which is natural 5591; and afterward 1899 that which is spiritual 4152.
natural 5591
5446 phusikos; pheeseekos, "physical", i.e. (by implication) instinctive:--natural. Compare 5591.
5591 psuchikos psookheekos' from 5590; sensitive, i.e. animate (as distinct from 4152 which is the higher or renovated nature; and on the other from 5446, which is the lower or bestial nature):--natural, sensual.
4153 pneumatikos adverb from 4152; non-physical, i.e. divinely, figuratively:--spiritually.
From these three stems above we can see that we humans are NOT PHYSIKOS (5446) and we are NOT PNEUMATIKOS (4153), but we are ... kinda right inbetween there, a PSUCHIKOS 5591 like "Get Smart".
love, Eden
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bluefrog
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Dave, this is where I get some of my information.
John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on Him, If ye continue in My word, then are ye My disciples indeed; v32)And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Romans 6:13 Neither yield (present)ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin; but yield (present)yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
v19) I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh; for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die; but if ye through the Spirit do mortify (are putting to death) the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Also, my bible translates "Natural" man to be "psuchikos" in Greek but I can't find it in my Greek dictionary in the concordance. But I don't think it means phychological. A natural man is a guy who does things that embarasses his wife in public n' stuff.
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oneinchrist
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Hi again Dave,
After Jesus rose from the dead and ascended to the right Hand of the Father, the outpouring of the Holy Ghost was authorized. Do you mean to tell me that until the day that the outpouring began every man that turned to God in times past only turned to Him "mentally?". C'mooooon.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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bluefrog
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DAVE B
Roses are red,
Froggies are blue,
Lions feet are big,
But you got no clue. ![[pound]](graemlins/pound.gif)
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Found in Him
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Member # 7596
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me thinks me sees Lion tracks ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
me likes!
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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bluefrog
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Dave B...And me makes three. Sorry bout that.
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oneinchrist
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posted
Dave B.
You soooooooo assume that God does not consider our response towards Him when deciding whom He is going to save and whom He is not going to save? You soooo assume that God has not given men the ability to respond in repentance and faith when having heard the Word........you so assume that the workings that God has done among us in times past up till this day have not had any impact on our lives and our consciences giving us more and more acute awareness of good and evil..........and lastly I hope you dont sooooo assume that you are saved solely based on a confidence in a particular theological and chronological understanding of scripture.
My hope is that if you have any confidence, it comes from the positive impact that God has had on others through you in drawing others to the understanding of the nature of His love.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Found in Him
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Dave writes...Regarding free-will. Man has free-will. OK? But, man's free-will is NOT the problem. According to the Bible, the problem is with Man's nature. Man is spiritually dead. Spiritually speaking, all men are born a non-responsive spiritual corpse.
Dave writes...
I Cor 2:14 sums it up very succinctly. The natural man is not able to "accept" the spiritual things of God, for they are foolishness to him.." The word for "natural" is "psykikos" from which we get "psychology" from. The spiritually dead sinner, by himself, cannot make a spiritual move toward God. The best a sinner can do is make a psychological decision.
So again, man has free will, but it is man's dead nature that is the problem.
I write...
This is false Dave ... For if this were true, Children that pass away before they are old enough to make a decision for Christ would perish and never make it to heaven. Sorry, Jesus loves the little children-- they are accepted.
Dave writes...
Salvation is an act of God, not in response to a prior act of Man. God must transform the sinner's nature, so that the free will may respond in faith. This God does because God is gracious, not because he is fair or unfair. If God were only fair, we would all be in hell right now.
I write...
False Dave... The experience of a born again is an act of God BUT requires man's acceptance to His "call" Our "nature" is changed ONLY when we ACCEPT His Spirit.
Dave writes...
So again, the call of the gospel goes out "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". Those who God has determined to save, will believe. Thier nature's will eb transformed. They will respond in faith, and they will begin to show the marks of grace.
I write:
False Again... Faith comes by hearing The Word of God, God offers ALL to come, WHEN they accept and are born again they will be transformed.
Examine yourselves to see if those marks of grace are evident in your life. If not, Please! do not trust in a religious act that you may have performed some time in your life. Your church may call that act salvation. But the Bible does not.
I Write...
Dave, What you are proposing here does not come from The Spirit of God! I will trust in the living word of God. His words are Spirit, and they are life!
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
Posts: 1503 | Registered: Jan 2009
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Dave B.
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Hi again everyone,
Here is a good sermon from yesterday. It was preached by our Pastor yesterday at 11:00am on salvation.
http://www.sgbcsv.org/sermons/200903011100.m3u
You can also go on our site and listen in.
Hope this helps,
Dave B.
Posts: 28 | From: San Francisco | Registered: Aug 2007
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Dave B.
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Hi Everyone,
Well there is certainly a lot to respond to here. Of course, time precludes a complete response to all of your comments. So, we will just respond to a couple of your statements and then come back later.
First I'll respond to one of Daniel's posts. First, regarding the differing views on free-will and salvation. It doesn't matter at all which views there are "out there". The only view that matters is the biblical view. OK? Whichever view the Bible teaches, is the correct view.
Regarding free-will. Man has free-will. OK? But, man's free-will is NOT the problem. According to the Bible, the problem is with Man's nature. Man is spiritually dead. Spiritually speaking, all men are born a non-responsive spiritual corpse.
I Cor 2:14 sums it up very succinctly. The natural man is not able to "accept" the spiritual things of God, for they are foolishness to him.." The word for "natural" is "psykikos" from which we get "psychology" from. The spiritually dead sinner, by himself, cannot make a spiritual move toward God. The best a sinner can do is make a psychological decision.
So again, man has free will, but it is man's dead nature that is the problem.
Regarding God "puppeteering men" into the Kingdom. The Bible does not refer to us as "robots" or "puppets". It refers to us as "slaves". Jesus said that all who commit sin are the slaves of sin. To make a slave free, and to make a dead person alive, requires an act of God.
Salvation is an act of God, not in response to a prior act of Man. God must transform the sinner's nature, so that the free will may respond in faith. This God does because God is gracious, not because he is fair or unfair. If God were only fair, we would all be in hell right now.
So again, the call of the gospel goes out "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". Those who God has determined to save, will believe. Thier nature's will eb transformed. They will respond in faith, and they will begin to show the marks of grace.
Examine yourselves to see if those marks of grace are evident in your life. If not, Please! do not trust in a religious act that you may have performed some time in your life. Your church may call that act salvation. But the Bible does not.
Thanks again for listening,
Dave B.
Posts: 28 | From: San Francisco | Registered: Aug 2007
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bluefrog
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Somethin else that's nice is the crowd He draws.
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Found in Him
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Awwwwwwwwww....you guys just bless me! He is good ain't He? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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bluefrog
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I find that the way the Lord answers prayers is way past amazing. If we look and listen it becomes evident in many cases that He responds when and where it pleases Him. In turn, I find it very pleasing also. It is such a joy to smile and thank Him. Even the prayers that I find no response to brings on joy and a smile as well, because He knows best, and that is so perfect.
Furthermore, I can't help but believe that He enjoys blessing us and finding the perfect time to do it. What a beautiful experience.
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oneinchrist
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Hey Eden,
I like the illustration that you gave concerning the communication between Jesus and us believers. It reminded me of the testimony that I shared with you guys a ways back of an anwered prayer of mine..............I prayed to Jesus......but the answer to my prayer came back in the third person..........."Jesus did not exalt Himself"
The manner in which I received that answer was confirmation to me that the Holy Spirit is real, and He can communicate things to us about Jesus. Of course I still searched the scriptures for validation of what I heard.......and I found plenty of it.
By the way, in case people are wondering.......I do not get answers to prayer like this on a regualar basis. This was only one of two times that I have received a word answer to a question that I was asking in prayer. The other answer came when I prayed to Jesus before going to bed asking Him about this pain( with a heightened inner sense of hopelessness, sadness, and desperation)that I was going through.........and I heard the words "learning humility" just before I awoke in the morning. I immediately remembered my prayer after I heard the words.
with love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Eden
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bluefrog wrote quote:
2 Cor 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
This tells you that it is not Jesus that indwells you but the Holy Spirit who intercesses with Jesus.
Once you have been saved and received your righteousness what you do is up to you. The Spirit will be there to guide you. The Spirit will not do it for you, and to prove it try it.
Well, I currently tend to agree with you that Jesus is in heaven seated at the right hand of the Father, and the Holy Spirit is like a TV receiver/crystal in me.
Then from heaven Jesus sends His counsel of what I should do next to His Holy Spirit and then the Holy Spirit relays to my spirit what Jesus has counseled I should do next, as Jesus guides my steps.
But it is still up to me to decide whether to implement all of His counsel.
In fact, a question that I have for Michael Harrison is whether Michael Harrison thinks that Jesus will even operate Michael's soul level for Michael, or does Michael still have to decide for himself whether to "implement Michael's ideas" or "Jesus's ideas"?
Or, is it possible that I SO-O end up trusting that Jesus by way of the Holy Spirit is MUCH SMARTER than me, so that I can even let Jesus opearate my soul level FOR ME, while I just sit back and enjoy?
love, Eden
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bluefrog
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ONE IN CHRIST...and DAVE B....
One in Christ, thanks for pointing out that Dave claimed that God hasn't given the ability to man to respond in repentance in faith to be saved.
I forgot about it. Dave wrote a pretty heavy script. Anyhoo, that point I also have a hard time agreeing with.
2 Cor 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of; but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of His goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Note: True faith in God will always be expressed buy turning from evil as one turns to the Lord.
Whatchathink Dave ? I hope that bugs ya. From a frog that is a compliment, don't ya know ?
Note: Like the bible says, we don't do all of our repenting prior to salvation. Some of us have to learn what to repent of even. It also, is a learning process.
Lord...we know we're messed up but please don't give up on us. Hugs!
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becauseHElives
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"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him;"
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Found in Him
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Predestined, foreknowledge, justified, glorified, predetermined, ordained, called, chosen, destined.....
Those are ALL big words for mere men but not when looked at with the HEART of God in mind.
It's not a matter of going to court, spiritual food for the “mature”, the deep hidden things of God or matter of opinion.
It's a matter of truth bottom line.
Where is The Spirit of God here?
1 Timothy 2
1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants ALL men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for ALL men—the testimony given in its proper time.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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oneinchrist
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Hi again Dave B,
You continue to assume that God has not given mankind the ability to respond in repentance and faith. I wonder if that could be a discredit to the influence that God and His Word has had on the hearts of men in times past and even up till this very day.
If your born-again theology is correct(born again and then enabled to respond in faith and repentance), then men would never even need to seek to understand the meaning of repentance towards God and faith towards Jesus, would they?.......it would just happen........and you could not be accused of making the Holy Ghost out to be a respecter of persons.
But, if your theology is incorrect, then men really need to understand what repentance towards God and faith towards Jesus means.........and you are guilty of showing the Holy Ghost to be a respecter of persons.......and that is equivalent to calling Good evil.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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bluefrog
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BECAUSE HE LIVES...Well Said. I was agreeing with you before you wrote this when I said tha Divine election and human freedom are twin themes. And you are right again by saying not to get too hung up on this. He has told us what we need to know and we don't need to go to court over it.
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becauseHElives
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For what it is worth, I believe in free will... and I believe in election! I believe that in the free will vs election debate you have to hold both sides... why? Because the Bible teaches both! Going to either extremes is dangerous. I know that it may not satisfy our little brains completely as we like everything to fit logically into our little boxes but it is the only way to go and you will find that the best Bible teaches in ages past generally taught both sides. For example, H.A Ironside gave the illustration of the sinner coming to the gates of Heaven and above the gate it reads "Whosoever will, let him come" (Rev. 22:17). As he accepts this gracious invitation and goes through the gates into Heaven, he sees written on the other side - "Chosen...in Him before the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4). Which is true? Whosoever can come or that we are elected and chosen of God? Both. Free will and chosen by God. The Bible teaches both so we must accept both even if it does do some mental gymnastics with our little brains!
In like manner, Charles Spurgeon said that free will and election are like two parallel lines that don't ever seem to touch. But he said that if you follow them far enough, all the way up to Heaven, then they do meet each other. When asked how he reconciles free will and election, Spurgeon replied 'You don't have to reconcile friends!" In other words, we look at the issue down here and think there is no way that both can be true but the great Bible teachers knew that both were true and they held both. And in eternity we shall see that they two thoughts were no against each other but were friends!
If you just hold to election/predestination then it can lead you down the path that some are elected for Hell. Which is NOT what the Bible teaches and is an insult to a loving God. But, as a Christian, if you give up on the election track and just go with free will, then you'll miss a whole lot more of what the Bible teaches about that it is God who chose you, and it is God that is holding you and keeping you safe in this salvation.
C.H.M, one of my favorite old writers wrote about this in "One sided theology". He wrote:
"He, blessed be His Name, has not confined Himself within the narrow limits of any school of doctrine, high, low, or moderate. He has revealed Himself. He has told out the deep and precious secrets of His heart. He has unfolded His eternal counsels, as to the Church, as to Israel, the Gentiles, and the wide creation. Men might as well attempt to confine the ocean in buckets of their own formation as to confine the vast range of divine revelation within the feeble enclosures of human systems of doctrine. It cannot be done, and it ought not to be attempted. Better far to set aside the systems of theology and schools of divinity, and come like a little child to the eternal fountain of Holy Scripture, and there drink in the living teachings of God's Spirit.
Nothing is more damaging to the truth of God, more withering to the soul, or more subversive of all spiritual growth and progress than mere theology, high or low—Calvinistic or Armenian. It is impossible for the soul to make progress beyond the boundaries of the system to which it is attached. If I am taught to regard "The Five Points" as "the faith of God's elect," I shall not think of looking beyond them; and then a most glorious field of heavenly truth is shut out form the vision of my soul. I am stunted, narrowed, one-sided; and not only so, but I am in danger of getting into that hard, dry state of soul which results from being occupied with mere points of doctrine instead of with Christ.
A disciple of the high school of doctrine will not hear of a world-wide gospel—of God's love to the world—of glad tidings to every creature under heaven. He has only gotten a gospel for the elect. On the other hand, a disciple of the low or Arminian school will not hear of the eternal security of God's people. Their salvation depends partly upon Christ, and partly upon themselves. According to this system, the song of the redeemed should be changed. Instead of "Worthy is the Lamb'," we should have to add, "and worthy are we." We may be saved today and lost tomorrow. All this dishonors God, and robs the Christian of all true peace. C.H.Mackintosh, "One Sided Theology,"
Sooooo....To keep it simple, if you're thinking about those that don't know Christ yet, think 'Whosoever will' for they stand outside the gate and the offer of salvation is available to all. Christ didn't just die for some but 'for God so loved the world that He gave...' But, when thinking of Christians, you can also think 'Chosen before the foundation of the world!' (Eph 1:4) And that means security in the family of God. Great thought.
I hope this helps. Don't go to extremes on this one.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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bluefrog
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EDEN..While Christ is the focus in our lives, the Holy Spirit is the active agent in our lives.
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken (make alive)your mortal (liable to die)bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.
2 Cor 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
This tells you that it is not Jesus that indwells you but the Holy Spirit who intercesses with Jesus.
Once you have been saved and received your righteousness what you do is up to you. The Spirit will be there to guide you. The Spirit will not do it for you, and to prove it try it.
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Eden
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bluefrog wrote quote:
EDEN...I read what you say you think it is to REPENT. Sounds like you feel it means to turn from your running your own life and letting Jesus run it for you.
Pardner, if you just sit down and do that...you're gonna die.
To REPENT is to agree that you are a sinner and want to be forgiven for the sins.
So why do you think we sin? Because we try to run our own lives just like Adam and Eve did. The sins are just a consequence of our running our own lives. Stop running my own life and let Jesus IN me live the life FOR me by doing all my thinking for me and guiding my steps, since Jesus does not sin, then there is no sin.
Sins are just the symptom, the sinner is the real problem. When the sinner repents of running his own life (which he had learned from Adam and Eve), then harmony is restored as, like Jesus, we do what the Father tells us to do next, then things go well with us.
Instead of dying, Jesus and I will live more abundantly, for we "have this treasure in an earthen vessel".
love, Eden
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bluefrog
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EDEN...I read what you say you think it is to REPENT. Sounds like you feel it means to turn from your running your own life and letting Jesus run it for you.
Pardner, if you just sit down and do that...you're gonna die.
To REPENT is to agree that you are a sinner and want to be forgiven for the sins. You hate them, you know they are and were wrong. We are talking about the sinful things you did, not everything. It is asking for forgiveness of your sins that Christ had to die for.
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bluefrog
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Hello DAVE ! Subject: what part of God's free gift is not free?
I certainly appreciate your attention to my response to your initial post, but don't pay much attention to it. I was just kidding about the bible lawyer thang. I throw that at everyone here from time to time. I do that cause I love em'. Pressing grapes was not nice for me to say either.
I can say one thing or more now that is to your favor, you sure have guts. If I had presented the information you gave and didn't follow up with tons of scripture I would have been on this subject for the next...who knows how long. You layed down a big 12 ounce steak as Paul might say. A few different comments that you made were somewhat hard to chew. I knew what you were saying but I always try to make my comments here as if nonbelievers were trying to understand. It was suggested that I do it that way. Example: You said it was an act of love for God to allow a person to live without being saved. I know what you mean but Noah wouldn't would he ? etc. To me though, I think He lets them live because it is in His plan or law and He can not break that. Sinners must run out their term to the judgement. Stuff like that.
Again, I know we use terms like "No sinner is aware of sin and hates God", but that is pretty hard to handle for most, including myself. But I am looking back at some very loving law abiding people who believed in and thought well of God. When I say believed, I mean as you believe you will get hurt if you believe the door is there but don't open it to walk thru.
I'm going to provide some scripture, etc., but first, ELECT or CALLED in Greek is eklektos and means "picked out".
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose,
Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant (what's left over)according to the election (those picked out)of grace.
v9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to the election (those picked out) might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth.
Comment: To understand what election means we must stay within the scripture context vs the top of our heads. There is no question that God does what He pleases....Israel as chosen people, Moses and his travels, David to rule, etc. Why Israel ? He wanted to. Believe it or not, our actions and attitudes have nothing to do with God's choices.
Election is not favoritism. It is proof of God's love and mercy. His choices make no statement about the persons chosen. It is about his love and grace.
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it to you.
Comment: Election by God does not rule out human choice. Divine election and human freedom are twin themes of scripture. Eph 1:1-11
So, as we know, we have the choice to choose the Lord as our Savior, or we can choose not to.
God predestined our choice because He knows Everything including the future. (Wow !) but if we choose not to follow Him and not to fulfill His predestination, then we can just go to hell.
Handling this matter is not an easy one this time and age. Believers are not much up on it that well and sinners will find a way out saying "How do I know I am chosen?" stuff like that. Christ's praying for for the elect only is hard for sinners to take also. Even some Christians wrestle with that statement. Especially bible lawyers...LOL rivit
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Found in Him
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To the believer: We DO NOT frustrate the grace of God!
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
The promise of what? The promise of The Holy Spirit!...
The anointing you received from God abides in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you this. Instead, because God's anointing teaches you about everything and is true and not a lie, abide in him, as he taught you to do.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Found in Him
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If you are visiting this forum and you do not know The Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Savior....I can assure you by God's Holy word, by The Spirit of The Most High God, and by the testimony of the believers and followers of Jesus Christ.... Jesus Christ came for YOU!
He died upon the cross of Calvary for the sins of the entire world and that means YOU TOO! He offers a FREE GIFT of salvation for ANYONE that calls upon the name of His Son Jesus, and it is His Spirit that calls TO YOU TODAY. He CHOSE YOU in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world. He chose to love you and make a way to reconcile you back to Himself. He CHOSE to do this through sending His Son to die for YOU.
All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We all like sheep have gone astray... Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him. To fall on His Son Jesus. He offers and extends His hand to you today, Through His Spirit and love and says "come to me" I will cleanse you from your sins and you will be mine. The offer stands and is open to ALL that receive Him. It is His love that compels you today!
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Found in Him
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Dave writes....
If God were to sit back, and wait for people to "accept Jesus as their personal saviour" and THEN save them, He would be the ultimate in respecting of persons. He would also be severely limiting Himself, waiting for people to accept His son. Putting Himself under the subjection of our will. And the people who "accept christ" could claim that they have a little bit more virtue than those who did not become saved, because "I accepted Him sincerely" and "they did not". Do you all see how this sounds?
quote:
If God were to sit back, and wait for people to "accept Jesus as their personal saviour" and THEN save them, He would be the ultimate in respecting of persons.
Let's remember God's “sovereign” patience and His Honor for His Son's FINISHED work on the cross for ALL of mankind.
quote:
He would also be severely limiting Himself, waiting for people to accept His son. Putting Himself under the subjection of our will.
Let's remember God's "sovereign" mercy upon ALL of mankind, Let's remember His WILL to send Jesus to a dying WORLD (Isaiah 53) and His Honor for His Son's FINISHED work on the cross for ALL of mankind.
quote:
And the people who "accept christ" could claim that they have a little bit more virtue than those who did not become saved, because "I accepted Him sincerely" and "they did not". Do you all see how this sounds?
Let's remember that those who “accept Christ” receive The Spirit of The Most High God living on the inside of them. There is a reason for this! BECAUSE GOD IN HIS "SOVEREIGNTY" CHOSE us to be WITNESSES of His "SOVEREIGN LOVE" ....Do you see how this sounds to a dying world?
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Found in Him
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Dave wrote....Both of these gospels are false, because they rely on Man's ability to make a spiritual decision, which God then reacts to. It also makes Christ's atonement a "general atonement" for all men, and places God in the subjective place of "waiting and waiting" for sinners to decide to accept his son. This robs God of His Sovereignty.
Dave,
May I suggest to you that you do not assume to “know” “God's sovereignty” by one chapter in the bible?
Paul in Romans 9 is speaking of Israel and their –REJECTION-- to the gospel. He is speaking of the Gentiles being grafted in because of Israel's Unbelief.
You cannot get away from the other verses in the bible that reveal God's “sovereign Heart” for mankind.
1.For God so loved the –world-- that He gave His only begotten Son that –whosoever-- believes should not perish but have everlasting life.
2.God is not willing that –ANY-- should perish....
Dave,
Where is The Spirit of God in your teaching? Why did Jesus send The Holy Spirit? Why?
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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oneinchrist
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Hi Dave B,
Please understand that some of us have differing "opinions" on how God exercises His Sovereignty. While some may have the view that Gods patience is a sign that He is waiting on a favorable response from us others may hold the view that time is passing by as we are being pupateered to the end to finally meet our pre-determined destiny.
What is free-will to you? I think this may be where the hang-up is. If free-will to you means that man can override the execution of Gods will being carried out, then I can understand why anyone would oppose it..........but if having "free-will" means that man "has the ability to make choices" that can play as a factor in Gods deciding whom He will save and whom He wont then we are talking a whole different baby, aren't we? Then the question becomes......will you repent? not, can you repent?.......and will you believe on the Lord Jesus?.........not, can you believe on the Lord Jesus? There is a huge difference depending on which view you hold to.
Now, what about the Holy Spirits funcion in the whole scheme of things. Well, we know that the Holy Spirit is the inspiration behind the Word of God. So then the next question is.......Has God made man capable of responding(in repentance and faith) to the gospel message, which is inspired by the Holy Ghost? If He has made us all capable, then everyone who comes under the hearing of the Word has equal opportunity to be saved..........hmmmmmmm......Then we are held accountable for whether we accept or reject it..........sounds fair to me.
But, what it sound like to me that you are saying is that God doesnt have to be fair because He is God and He doesnt have to save anyone. Yes, faith is a gift.......but I dont think it is a gift in the sense that you think.
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.........it is a gift because it comes by the hearing of the word of God.........not because God only wants to give certain individuals the ability to repent and believe and leave the rest helpless but to reject Him.
Actually, when you think about it........does it even make sense to say........"helplessly" reject?
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Dave B.
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Hi BlueFrog,
I am responding to your comments separately because of your elevated status due to age and life experience.
I am very glad you have been healed from your cancer. A friend of mine from college was healed as well, and he is not a believer. We know that God heals people all the time. Many times, people are not healed and they die. One day soon, you will not be healed, and will leave this earth. I will follow you shortly thereafter (unless it is God's will that I precede you).
No I am not one fo those Bible lawyers. Like all of you, I want to understand what God is teaching, and reject the false teaching out there. So it pays to prayerfully study the Bible.
Today, in our society, we have two distinct gospels being preached by men of sincere motivation. They cannot both be true.
One gospel says:
Man is a sinner. Man has free will. Jesus paid for the sins of everyone who ever lived. This salvation is available to all, but is not valid, until the sinner, while still a sinner, uses there free will to "accept" this gift.
The presuppositions behind this gospel, which was introduced into England about 1820 by Charles Finney, is that when mankind fell, he did not become completely evil. There is still a small amount of goodness left, which enables him, if he is willing, to come to Jesus. When he comes, God will then react to his "decision" and save him. This theory of salvation is called Pelagianism.
A variation of this gospel was adopted by John Wesley and continued by Dwight L Moody and made famous by Billy Graham. This gospel again declares Christ died for the sins of all who lived, but the sinner must "accept it" of their own free will. This gospel pre-supposes that unlike Finney's gospel, man is completely evil, but Jesus' death on the cross provided each person with "prevenient grace". In essence, it made all men "save-able" if they will come forward and accept Christ. This gospel is the one most evangelical churches preach. It features the "altar call". If a person comes forward and accepts christ, they go into the decision room and taek an oral exam. If they pass, they are declared Christian. If they go back and live like the world, they are called "carnal christians" and are urged to "rededicate their lives".
Both of these gospels are false, because they rely on Man's ability to make a spiritual decision, which God then reacts to. It also makes Christ's atonement a "general atonement" for all men, and places God in the subjective place of "waiting and waiting" for sinners to decide to accept his son. This robs God of His Sovereignty.
The biblical gospel states that Man is a sinner and man has free will. But the problem is not our will, it is our nature. We are, by nature, dead in trespasses and sins. It takes an act of God to make us alive. Because God has determined a people for himself, God has planned to save a great many people. God has done this by sending Jesus to pay for their sins. These people are referred to in the Bible as "the elect". God uses the preaching of the gospel to saev his elect, by means of the Holy Spirit applying the word of God to the heart of the sinner, affecting the transformation of the heart and nature, which Jesus told Nicodemus is absolutely necessary for salvation (see John 3). This gospel pre-supposes that man is incapable and unwilling to obey God. God must change them, imparting life, giving them a new heart. Their response is to respond with their new saving Faith.
Well, again I hope this helps. I'm sorry you feel as though I am pressing grapes. Like you, I want the truth. Today's modern gospel takes the Sovereign Grace of God and turns it into just another religion. Plz don't be fooled.
Bro Dave B.
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oneinchrist
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Good morning Eden,
Its not a bad thing if you are trying to prove something. In that earlier post, I just wanted to know exactly what it was that you were trying to prove. I am not offended by disagreements.
As far as repentance is concerned, it sounds to me like we are on the same page. I certainly would agree that repentance must first begin with a humble acknowledgement of sin and some measure of grief over our sin especially in light of the gospel message of Jesus. Now, as far as the wording that you use "to stop running your own life", I think that it would be fairly synonymous with the words that I would use to answer your question....... "to repent of our orientation of rebellion towards God".
There is an additional thing that I think is important in repentance, and that is, that, we "put on" the right attitude towards sin in light of the gospel message. After all, repentance is also defined as a change of attitude.......for ex: "I now declare sin to be my enemy". One of the reasons why I believe that the right view on sin is important is that I am convinced that a growing passivity towards sin can be used as a "leveraging tool" by the devil to lead us astray.
Eden, please understand that I do not feel that I know the perfect definition. I have tried to understand repentance by taking in account information from several different sources, including, but not limited to the bible, bible footnotes, bible dictionaries, pastor/teachers, etc.
I would like you to know that I believe that we all have sin.......why? because sin is anything that is contrary to the character of God.......but I do not believe that that knowledge gives me the right to be passive towards sin though............if I am a murderer, I must turn from it.......if I am a liar, I must stop lying........If I am living in adultery, I must get out of it. I acknowledge that I have sin because I realize that I need continual character transformation, but at the same time I declare sin my enemy and I do not "practice sin" in the sense that I despise Gods word. Thank you for fellowship Eden. I hope that we can continue to learn and grow together in the faith.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Dave B.
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Hi again everyone,
Thank you again for your responses. It is gratifying that we can disagree on a few things, and do so in a loving and supportive way. I'll try to respond as best I can, given the usual human limitations (lol).
FoundinHim, I agree with you. Salvation is not caused by a one-time religious act. It is an act of God the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. All I am saying is that the modern method that most churches use today, claims that "accepting Christ as your personal saviour" causes God to respond by regenerating the sinner. This method is not the gospel and never has been.
I agree with you that God has poured out his love upon all mankind. Because all mankind are dead in trespassses and sins and each individual person is at enmity with God from conception (unless and until God saves them), even allowing a person to live a full life on earth without saving them, is an enormous act of love and grace. We have to remember that if God saved nobody, He would still be good and just and merciful, It is not God who has a problem. It is we who have a problem. Sin.
I also agree with you Jesus bids "come" "whosoever is thirsty" etc. I also agree with you that Jesus will take care of his own, and that he is not limited. This is exactly what I have been trying to say. Jesus is not limited, we are the ones who are limited. when Jesus said "all who the Father gives me will come to me" and when Jesus said "no man is able to come to me, unless it is given to him by my Father", he was explaining that there is no sinner, while dead in trespasses and sins, who can or will, of his own "free will" realize he is thirsty, and come to Jesus on Jesus' terms. We cannot because we are spiritually dead, unresponsive. We are also by nature, completely in love with our sin, and hate God. This is our condition before God saves us. This the biblical record.
Thus, the Father has given a remnant of humanity, chosen by Grace (see Romans 9), to Jesus. These are referred to by Jesus as "the elect" and it is only these for whom Jesus came to save. God's grace and mercy are poured out upon the whole universe (kosmos), including all people. None of us deserve any of God's mercies at all. But Jesus did not pay for the sins of every person who ever lived. He payed only for the sins of the elect. This is clearly stated in the Bible.
Jesus is not limited. The people who God has chosen to be saved from before the beginning of time (check out Ephesians 1) have unlimited and eternal forgiveness. Jesus will take care of his own, having bought them while they were still dead and still enemies of God. God does not save us because we "decided to accept him into our heart". Our hearts, before God gives us a new heart, are dead!
becauseHelives, it is not hard at all for people to reject God's offer of forgiveness. It is natural for them to reject it (see 1 Cor 2:14). The natural man can not accept the spiritual things of God because they are foolishness to him. It takes an act of God to change the heart before anyone can "let Yahweh in". Rememeber, the will is subservient to the nature. Regeneration is the first act of God in salvation. Our apparent "letting Yahweh in" is a response to this transformation, never the cause of it.
OK let me respond to onein christ's comments.
yes I agree with you, forgiveness of sin does not come without confession and repentance. The Bible is clear that confession of sin and repentance, along with obedience, prayer, love, joy, peace etc. are all evidences of salvation. But these are not the "causes" of salvation. When the Bible commands people to "believe into the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved", it pre-supposes this "belief into" Christ is Faith, and Faith itself is a gift from God. And yes, I am saying that the Bible is clear, that when we are justified (that is, declared righteous before God, apart from anything we do) and declared sanctified etc, this happens to us, and our response, either simultaneously or a microsecond afterward, is to respond as one would who has been transformed by God into a new creature. Not perfect, but changed.
I agree with you, that God is not a respecter of persons. God does not elect some people to be saved and others not, because he respects some and not others. The Bible declares that God saves people for his own reasons, his own purpose and for his own glory. God, being morally self-consistent and altogether good, does what He does for His own reasons. We cannot complain.
If God were to sit back, and wait for people to "accept Jesus as their personal saviour" and THEN save them, He would be the ultimate in respecting of persons. He would also be severely limiting Himself, waiting for people to accept His son. Putting Himself under the subjection of our will. And the people who "accept christ" could claim that they have a little bit more virtue than those who did not become saved, because "I accepted Him sincerely" and "they did not". Do you all see how this sounds?
So once again, I will summarize. The biblical gosple commands all men to repent and believe. God uses the preaching of the gospel to save the sinners who he has made an unlimited commitment to save, from before the foundation of the world. Those whom God has decided to save will, at the moment God regenerates them, respond in faith. The evidence that God has saves them, according to the Bible, is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness etc., repentance and prayer.
So, let us examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. Let us not trust in any religious acts we have performed. There is no such thing as a "carnal christian", only a "repenting christian".
Keep yourselves from idols.
Again hope this helps,
Bro Dave B.
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Eden
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Hi, oneinchrist, how are you today. I hope you do not think that "I'm trying to prove something", but you wrote quote:
I hope that you do not think that God is being too demanding on us by commanding us to repent and believe on His Son. God was never obligated to share His existence with us, and He was certainly never obligated to sacrifice His Son.
May I ask sincerely, what exactly do you think that we as sinners should "repent from"?
Does "repent" mean "to be sorry for" and to "change my mind" and "to try not to do that behavior again"?
I tend to think that "to repent" means to "repent from running my own life" because is that not what what the first Adam did, he began to run his own life just like Lucifer-Satan had done before Adam and Eve, and so Adam and Eve began to run their own life from the soul level, and henceforth ignored their spirit input.
So it seems to me that what we need to "repent from" is "no longer running our own life" or "cease from our own works", and "letting God run our life again thru Jesus IN me".
So isn't THAT what we repent off, become WILLING not to run our own lives anymore, sine when we run our own life, sin is the result since "we cannot think straight".
And so God says: "Lean not on your own understanding" and he who has entered into his rest is he who has "ceased from his own works".
So oneinchrist, isnt't that what we repent off, we agre to no longer run our own life but letting Jesus IN us be our life now:
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me.
Jesus cannot sin so to the extent that JESUS is running the show in me, guiding my steps, I will not sin.
But to the extent that I take up the thinking reins again, to that extent will I have to CONTINUE to repent, namely, repenting of being like the first Adam again. Isn't that what repenting consists of?
If we repent of our BEHAVIOR, then we are just repenting of the SYMPTOMS of running our own life which is ALWAYS sin since we are too stupid to run our own life from the soul level without God's input.
So we do not repent from BEHAVIOR but from running our own life altogether, and God has provided for that by "Christ doing the living in me FOR me", that is, IF I "cease from my own works" first.
love, Eden
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oneinchrist
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Hi Dave B,
In the book of Acts Jesus gives us insight into the break-down of the elements of salvation..............."forgiveness of sin" and "sanctification". Now we know that "forgiveness of sin" does not come without confession and repentance and that "sanctification" does not come without submission to the Lord Jesus.
Apparently, under the view that you hold , an individual would be forgiven before they confess and repent and an individual would be sanctified before they submit to the Lord Jesus...........do you really think that is biblical?
I hope that you do not think that God is being too demanding on us by commanding us to repent and believe on His Son. God was never obligated to share His existence with us, and He was certainly never obligated to sacrifice His Son.
While it appears that you are attempting to take extreme caution as not to ascribe any effort on mans part to salvation, I think that you might want to be careful not to ascribe the Holy Ghost as a respecter of persons. One of the most profound revelations in the book of Acts(and in the whole bible for that matter) is the character of God as not being a respecter of persons. You ask.....how might I be making the Holy Ghost appear to be a respecter of persons? I say......by showing the Holy Ghost to be executing the function of only choosing to give some people the ability to repent and believe and leaving the rest in their sin.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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bluefrog
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DAVE...are you another one of them there bible lawyers ?
I just hate it when someone takes a word or a few words and runs them through the grape press to see what they can get out of them. That goes on here a gob.
Sorry, I don't agree with ya either. Righteousness doesn't come like a safety box at the bank with rental due now and then. Yes, I am a part of this world physically and that will not change cause I'm leavin it here. I'll be comin back but not to get my old bod. Nope.
God gave His Son for All of Us, His Life ! And I don't even like some of them, but I can live with it. Now for Jesus to say He was accepting someone in place of me that I didn't even like....well....I couldn't handle that so I've gotta be gooder, don't ya know? just kidding.
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becauseHElives
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Found in Him I agree, The Heavenly Father has poured His Love (Grace) out on the whole world.
people have to try hard to reject what is freely offered to them by Yahweh. His Love and Grace is all arould them, it fills the whole earth.
people reject Yahweh's free gift not because it's not free but because they love their life as it is, and they know, if only subconsciously when Yahweh truly is allowed entrance they will have to be changed.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Found in Him
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Dave,
I appreciate your time that you put into writing all of the above.
You wrote....So, we know that a one-time religious act, can never cause any one to be saved....
I guess you are right about that. It is not a "religious act". It is a BORN AGAIN "real" act of The Holy Spirit that confirms witness that we are a new creation at the time of our coming to The Savior Jesus! Answering His bid to "come"!
I'm sorry. Your description of salvation and the lack of understanding of The Father's heart for ALL OF mankind does not bear record with the Spirit, word, or testimony of the believer. Not this one anyway.
Why did Jesus pay for the sins of the WHOLE world (1 John 2:2) if God had determined to just call a few? It makes Christ's cost in vain-- What in fact you are implying makes God's word of no effect...consider the cost of what you are saying.
Men can have a knowledge of scripture that is void of the power of God. I pray Christ reveals this to anyone that lacks understanding.
My rebuttal is simply this...
Jesus is God's love Poured out upon ALL mankind.
Jesus bids "come" "come unto Him" "Whosoever will" "Whosoever is thirsty" "Let him come"
Christ will take care of His own.
He is not limited.
And it's just that simple.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Dave B.
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Hi again everyone,
Oops I forgot to respond to the othe rverse quoted.
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward; NOT willing that ANY should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
(2 Peter 3:9)
This is of course correct. God is not willing that any should perish. Read Ezekiel 33, where God states He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his evil way and live.
This simply means that God is so kind, as well as just, that He does not take pleasure in sending men, women and children into hell. Thus, it is not God who is mean, it is us!
The call of the gospel is "believe into the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". Peter said "immediately repent, and let every one of you be baptized..". The pre-supposition of this preaching is that those who God plans to save, will hear the gospel, and the Holy Spirit will apply it to their hearts and they will be converted. Their response then, will be to exercise the faith they have received as a result of this regeneration.
Again, our response to being saved, is a transformed life. The modern churches have turned this around, to say that our response is the "cause" of our being saved. They have changed the gospel to say that "once you have accepted Jesus as your personal saviour, THEN God regenerates u and gives u eternal life". Or they say "God has done everything possible and can do nothing more. The rest is up to you". This is not the gospel.
The biblical gospel says that man is dead in trespasses and sins. It takes an act of God to change the nature of man, give him new life. This act of God is initiated and accomplished by God upon those he has chosen for his own glory and grace (the elect). Even if God only chose 10 people to be saved, it would be an astounding act of Grace. Instead, He chose a multitude. when God saves a sinner, their very nature is transformed. They are a new creature. Their response as I have said, may be to "accept Christ". But the real evidence of salvation is a transformed life, nevr a one-time religious profession.
OK I hope this is clear, if wordy. Again ty for listening with so much patience. May God bless you all.
bro. Dave B.
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Dave B.
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Member # 6710
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posted
Hi Bluefrog, Onein Him and everyone else.
I am glad for all of your kind responses. I will try to be more clear in this short response.
Let's look at the verse quoted by BlueFrog.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
In the original language it says God so loved the world (kosmos, which could mean creation, universe as well as people) that he gave his son, the only begotten one, that all "the ones constantly believing" into him shall not perish etc.
In this verse, the Bible is not talking about a one-time performance of a religious act, such as "accepting christ as your personal saviour". The phrase "believeth" is a present active participle. It means "the individuals constantly believing". And the word "in" is eis, "into".
So, we know that a one-time religious act, can never cause any one to be saved. The Bible is clear on this. God saves people according to his Sovereign will and according to His plan.
Again we are commanded to preach the gospel to all people. God will save those for whom Christ died. Please do not trust in your religious acts as proff of your salvation. Trust in the Biblical evidence. Examine yourselves (as I will also do) and if you find reason to believe you have not been converted, cry out to God to save you until you have the biblical assurance of faith.
Thanks again,
bro. Dave B.
Posts: 28 | From: San Francisco | Registered: Aug 2007
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Found in Him
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Member # 7596
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posted
Bluefrog.....No the feather thing was not directed to you!
Someone said something about God choosing who He would save-- that selection thing ruffled me! I will never understand why folks cannot see the length God went to to save ALL of mankind. We do the choosing bluefrog. He did everything He could to reach out to all...
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
Posts: 1503 | Registered: Jan 2009
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bluefrog
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posted
Found in Him...Watch it, winter isn't over yet.
I don't know what you are talking about. I noticed where you directed your feather thang to me but why? What did I do now?
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Found in Him
Advanced Member
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posted
Sorry Bluefrog. I didn't realize you wrote the same thing...
My feathers are in a bunch again. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Found in Him
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Member # 7596
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posted
Dave wrote....... God has determined to save a great many people. we don't know who thay are. But those who God has determined to save, will believe. Our job is never to get people to "make a decision for Christ", but instead to preach the gospel in thought, word and deed. God will use the gospel preaching to save those He has decided to save.
Really? I thought God sent His Son for all!!!!
Please explain the above verses then.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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bluefrog
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posted
If a person believes that the Bible never gives "accepting Christ" as an evidence of salvation may be because they missed it when reading the Bible. That is easy to fix though.
Read the scriptures that WildB offered above and make sure you read:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
As far as evidence, once you have submitted yourself to the Lord it is customary to make it known by being baptised. After that, you begin your journey as a disciple, glorifying Him, and submitting your self to a life as directed by Him.
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Found in Him
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posted
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward; NOT willing that ANY should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
(2 Peter 3:9)
Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and NOT ONLY for ours but also for the sins of the WHOLE world.
Jesus Christ bore the sins for the ENTIRE world! WHOSOEVER will MAY COME!!!
17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" WHOSOEVER is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
Let's stay on track, stick to The word of God!
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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oneinchrist
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Member # 6532
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posted
Hi Dave B.
Obviously you realize by now that there are differing opinions on how God exercises His sovereignty in making His decision in whom He is going to save and whom He is not going to save.
The doctrine of total depravity while it may contain truth regarding our sin nature and our inability to change that on our own, it may be wrong about mans ability to respond to the gospel message itself.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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bluefrog
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posted
MICHAEL...You will have to speak for yourself on that. That's too bad.
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