This is topic What part of God's FREE GIFT is NOT FREE? in forum Bible Topics & Study at Christian Message Boards.
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Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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Romans 5:15
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, has abounded unto many.
Romans 5:16
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
The Bible further says that God made men in the likeness of God:
Genesis 5:1
This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made He him.
Now, among mere men it is already rare that a person gives another person A GIFT and then that GIFT IS TAKEN BACK by the person who gave it. It is almost UNHEARD OF among mortal men.
So man was made in the likeness of God. Would God WHO IS LOVE TAKE HIS FREE GIFT BACK AGAIN once He has given it??? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
The God I know is a God of LOVE. Would God take His gift back again?
Romans 5:15
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, has abounded to many.
Does that sound like a FREE GIFT that will be TAKEN BACK?
But suddenly this starts to sound like OSAS and non-OSAS again, because, when WHEN DOES GOD GIVE THE GIFT to men?
Is it, as the OSAS people maintain, the free gift is given WHEN WE FIRST SINCERELY BELIEVE and then the free gift is kept for life no matter what happens in that person's life after FIRST SINCERELY BELIEVING that Jesus died in our place.
Or is the FREE GIFT given as the NON-OSAS people who think that the FREE GIFT IS GIVEN ONLY IF WE DIE BELIEVING that Jesus died in our place.
That is, it IS a FREE GIFT, but this FREE GIFT is not given until we DIE STILL BELIEVING.
On the other hand, if the FREE GIFT is NOT GIVEN until I DIE, then how can God GIVE ME THE HOLY SPIRIT RIGHT NOW?
Because the Bible does say that we NOW receive the earnest (down payment, a portion of) the Holy Spirit in the moment that we sincerely believe in Jesus.
So how can the FREE GIFT be given at the END of one's life, if the HOLY SPIRIT, which practically IS THE FREE GIFT, is already given upon FIRST BELIEVING?
But, will GOD TAKE BACK HIS FREE GIFT? It is only a TAKE BACK if God gives me His free gift NOW upon believing.
Perhaps I should ask once again what the FREE GIFT actually consists of? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Romans 5:15
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, has abounded to many.
Romans 5:16
And not as it was by one who sinned, is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
When did this free gift come upon all men? Since the free gift abound unto justification, I am justified right upon believing. And I stay justified as long as I believe in Jesus. But if I stop believing in Jesus, do I no longer have access to the Holy Spirit? ![[wave3]](graemlins/18.gif)
with love, Eden
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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Eden , Yahweh doesn't ever take back His free gift but many foolish individuals throw His free gift back in His Face! ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi Eden,
The "free gift" is Jesus who was sent as a sacrifice for our sin. The word "free" in this context is an emphasis on the "unconditional love" that God showed the whole world despite our state of sin.
The "free gift" becomes ours if we have responded in repentance towards God and faith towards the Lord Jesus. A sincere heart is what God is looking for........no one can fake it with God for he tests the hearts of men.
The Seed and the Sower parable shows us that the enemy will attempt to draw us back into the world and take away what was sown in our hearts. This is certainly a test of our sincerety towards God and loyalty towards Jesus. If we were to fail, it would not be because God is not able to keep or sustain us, it would be because we were enticed by what the world has to offer and chosen of our own accord to put the Lord on the backburner.
Eden, please do not get the impression that I propose that a man somehow earns grace. No man on earth can say he deserved to have a savior die for his sins..........but we still cant get past the truth that.......
the gospels clearly show us that there is a call to discipleship that cannot be ignored if we believe in Jesus and desire to be sanctified. The gospels also show us there is a call to repentance that cannot be ignored if we believe in Jesus and desire to be forgiven.
The bottom line is .........if we are sincere in our repentance towards God and in our faith towards Jesus we do not have to worry that God will go back on His word. Let each man examine his own heart.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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oneinchrist wrote to Eden quote:
The "free gift" becomes ours if we have responded in repentance towards God and faith towards the Lord Jesus.
So we receive this "free gift" (which is Jesus)...when we respond in repentance and faith toward Jesus. Do we receive this "free gift", say, right after the first repentance and first faith in Jesus, right then we receive this "free gift"?
And will God who is Love maybe take this "free gift" BACK again, if we who have received the "free gift", uhh, do what exactly to make God so mad that He takes His "free gift back" (what we humans call derogatorily "an Indian giver"?
Would God take a "free gift" back????
love, Eden
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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hi, oneinchrist, you wrote to Eden quote:
A sincere heart is what God is looking for........no one can fake it with God for he tests the hearts of men.
Yes, I think that is right. The other day I saw a verse of "God who looks at the heart", which spoke to me:
Luke 16:15
And He said to them, You are they who justify yourselves before men; but God knows your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
Basically the verse says, Look, God does not care what I say or do, God looks at the heart and God can tell if my heart is sincere or not in what the heart believes about Jesus and God.
It's not rocket sience; eiher the heart believes sincerely or it does not; God knows the difference, and that settles the matter to God.
But presumably God checks back now and then to see what the heart is currently believing...or actually, God will know right away when a heart that was sincere,is no longer sincere? And then what?
love, Eden
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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oneinchrist also wrote quote:
The gospels also show us there is a call to repentance that cannot be ignored if we believe in Jesus and desire to be forgiven.
I think you have that partially upside down. We do not first believe in Jesus and THEN we have a call to repentance. Believe me, sinners have to REPENT first and THEN they can believe in Jesus.
Basically we only need to repent OF ONE THING, and that is of operating our own life in our own soul power.
As we go on with God and Jesus, we will try to take up the reins of our life again instead of "letting God and Jesus guide our life", and that thing that we REPENT of doing over and over, of "taking up the reins of our own life again".
For when we let God and Jesus through the Holy Spirit guide our lives (i.e., "we have ceased from our own works"), God does not and cannot sin, so when we let God, there is no sin.
But the moment we take the reins of our own life up again, we sin quickly because the soul is not designed for operating our life.
So we only need to repent of one thing, both BEFORE we believe in Jesus, and then AFTER we believe in Jesus: namely, to get out of the way and Let God.
love, Eden
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Good morning Eden,
I am in kind of a hurry so I will try to answer quickly. In the explanation that I gave about what Paul means by the "free gift", (free gift = Jesus) I was hoping to convey the message that there is no taking back of the free gift.......because.....God already sacrificed His Son.
As far as repentance and believing are concerned..........in my post I was not paying careful attention to try and show a chronological sequence of events..........I was just focusing overall more on the essential responses of man. It does seem to make sense to me though, that, if a man chooses to believe in Jesus, that he will respond to the call to repentance.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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Eden
oneinchrist
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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becauseHElives had written to Eden quote:
Eden
thank you, becauseHElives, despite your legalistic side, I like your forthrightness, and I am thankful that you are saved in Jesus, for what a blessing it is to be chosen from among sinners who are all equal sinners? This I think you understand, andI bless you in Jesus for that.
becauseHElives, you tend to be a bit legalistic for me, and you probably have heard that from other Christians on this bbs, but you also have a real love for the Lord and a dedication to be a good person before the Lord. I get that.
But you probably come across to me, and to a few other Christians on this board, as legalistic (I'll use italic for now instead of the more bold "legalistic"), but there is a side of you which I know is devoted to our Lord Jesus and you love our Lord Jesus.
I think "your" legalism arises from you thinking that YOU can keep Yahshua's teachings. But do you hear what YOU are saying? YOU want to keep YAHSHUA'S TEACHINGS? Are you now Yahshua that you should be able to DO HIS TEACHINGS?
I, instead, following more the Christian teachings of Watchman Nee, et al., think that I need to "cease from my own works, and let God do the thinking for me", so that it is not ME who TRIES to keep the teachings of Yahshua, but it is God or Yashua Who, in me, looks at my stuff going on in my life and HE guides me "what I should do next", to me it is more like that, becauseHElives, is that not different?
love, Eden
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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as you read this remember Yahshua died , rose from the dead and sent the Holy Spirit that those who whould put their trust in Him might live in victory over the flesh...
good morning Eden....many think me legalistic, but that is so far from who I am, in the context of how legalism is viewed in your understanding...
is it legalism to love Yahweh with all my heart...
is it legalism to have no other gods before Yahweh...
is it legalism to not take the name of the Yahweh in vain; ...
is it legalism to Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy....
is it legalism to Honor thy father and thy mother;...
is it legalism to not kill....
is it legalism to not commit adultery....
is it legalism to not steal....
is it legalism to not bear false witness against thy neighbor.....
is it legalism to not covet thy neighbor's stuff...
is it legalism to obey traffic lights or speed limits.... do I have to have some special power to obey these laws or just a respect for the person or person that created these laws....
Matthew 5: 16Let your light so shine before men that they may see your moral excellence and your praiseworthy, noble, and good deeds and recognize and honor and praise and glorify your Father Who is in heaven.
17Do not think that I have come to do away with or undo the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to do away with or undo but to complete and fulfill them.
18For truly I tell you, until the sky and earth pass away and perish, not one smallest letter nor one little hook [identifying certain Hebrew letters] will pass from the Law until all things [it foreshadows] are accomplished.
19Whoever then breaks or does away with or relaxes one of the least [important] of these commandments and teaches men so shall be called least [important] in the kingdom of heaven, but he who practices them and teaches others to do so shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20For I tell you, unless your righteousness (your uprightness and your right standing with God) is more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
21You have heard that it was said to the men of old, You shall not kill, and whoever kills shall be liable to and unable to escape the punishment imposed by the court.
22But I say to you that everyone who continues to be angry with his brother or harbors malice (enmity of heart) against him shall be liable to and unable to escape the punishment imposed by the court; and whoever speaks contemptuously and insultingly to his brother shall be liable to and unable to escape the punishment imposed by the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, You cursed fool! [You empty-headed idiot!] shall be liable to and unable to escape the hell (Gehenna) of fire.
23So if when you are offering your gift at the altar you there remember that your brother has any [grievance] against you,
24Leave your gift at the altar and go. First make peace with your brother, and then come back and present your gift.
25Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are on the way traveling with him, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison.
26Truly I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last fraction of a penny.
27You have heard that it was said, You shall not commit adultery.
28But I say to you that everyone who so much as looks at a woman with evil desire for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29If your right eye serves as a trap to ensnare you or is an occasion for you to stumble and sin, pluck it out and throw it away. It is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be cast into hell (Gehenna).
30And if your right hand serves as a trap to ensnare you or is an occasion for you to stumble and sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better that you lose one of your members than that your entire body should be cast into hell (Gehenna).
31It has also been said, Whoever divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.
32But I tell you, Whoever dismisses and repudiates and divorces his wife, except on the grounds of unfaithfulness (sexual immorality), causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a woman who has been divorced commits adultery.
33Again, you have heard that it was said to the men of old, You shall not swear falsely, but you shall perform your oaths to the Lord [as a religious duty].
34But I tell you, Do not bind yourselves by an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is the throne of God;
35Or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King.
36And do not swear by your head, for you are not able to make a single hair white or black.
37Let your Yes be simply Yes, and your No be simply No; anything more than that comes from the evil one.
38You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.
39But I say to you, Do not resist the evil man [who injures you]; but if anyone strikes you on the right jaw or cheek, turn to him the other one too.
40And if anyone wants to sue you and take your undershirt (tunic), let him have your coat also.
41And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two [miles].
42Give to him who keeps on begging from you, and do not turn away from him who would borrow at interest] from you.
43You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy;
44But I tell you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45To show that you are the children of your Father Who is in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the wicked and on the good, and makes the rain fall upon the upright and the wrongdoers [alike].
46For if you love those who love you, what reward can you have? Do not even the tax collectors do that?
47And if you greet only your brethren, what more than others are you doing? Do not even the Gentiles (the heathen) do that?
48You, therefore, must be perfect [growing into complete maturity of godliness in mind and character, having reached the proper height of virtue and integrity], as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Me again Eden, I not stupid I know I am not to the desired goal, but I am pressing forward as the Apostle Paul said and my expectation everyday is to be more like my Savior tomorrow than I am today ....
by the way I love Watchman Nee, I have read every book he wrote, even went to one of his Churches that was started here in America by Witness Lee...Watchman Nee was/is a great brother with great understanding of the scriptures and he did not teach the doing away with the Law!
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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Acts 10
43 To Him give all the prophets witness, that through His name whosoever believes in Him shall receive remission of sins.
That's pretty simple, isn't it? Although I do think a person must "continue to believe" and must be a believer when the person dies.
But, while the person lives and "continues to believe", God will bless that person while the person "continues to believe".
Acts 10
43 To Him give all the prophets witness, that through His name whosoever believes in Him shall receive remission of sins.
love, Eden
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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The difference between legalism and serving is that legalism is you thinking you are 'doing' the right thing, and serving is realizing that Jesus is doing the right thing, and you are abiding in that!
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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I was reading Romans 5:8-10 and 3:23-25 yesterday and was again wondering WHAT, if anything, IS NOT FREE about God reconciling us to Him thru His Son?
Romans 5:8-11
8 But God commends His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by HIS life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Dear Christian friends, which part, if any, of the abovc verses say that WE HAVE TO STILL DO SOMETHING other than have faith in the shed blood of Jesus?
I don't see anything that I now need to add to my faith in Jesus to be justified and reconciled to God by the shed blood of Jesus?
Jesus did not die for an INCOMPLETE ATONEMENT, did He? For God commends HIS love toward us...
What is NOT free about the above offer?
Romans 3
23 For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
24 Being justified FREELY by HIS grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
25 Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.
Is there any part of justification that is NOT FREE? Being justified freely by HIS grace, and thus NOT BY ANY GRACE OF OUR OWN?
love, Eden
Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on
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This subject brings the fear of God on me!!!!
We know that salvation is a free gift...Revelation 22:17
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
But I'm not sure what to do with this:
Hebrews 6
1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so.
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
These verses put the fear of God in me.
Help me out here.
Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on
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maybe the fear of the Lord is the point? take heed?
1 Corinthians 10
1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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Found in Him wrote quote:
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
These verses put the fear of God in me.
Help me out here.
I can't, I don't know what Hebrews 6 means in light of Romans 3:23-25 where the original branches CAN BE GRAFTED BACK IN AGAIN.
Or, to put it this way, if God is no respector of persons, how can God graft the original branches of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah BACK IN but not grant that same opportunity for the Gentiles?
So how can one who has fallen away NOT get ANY new opportunity to be grafted back in?
And, to be honest, has it not been our Christian experience thus far that people who WERE Christians once upon a time, let's say when they were young, but then when they were teenagers they abandoned Jesus as being nonsense, and then, later in life, they returned to Jesus, is this not our experience in reality in Christianity, or am I mistaken about that?
love, Eden
Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on
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God is Holy and He so loved the world that He gave His precious Son that we might live. If anyone receiving this precious Son turns and forsakes Him... What will The Father do? This is a troubling thing to me.
I shake inside as I type and consider.
I respect and honor Him. I think of the Father viewing His Son hanging on a tree paying a heavy price for nothing He had done wrong.
It is a fearful thing to me.
Hebrews 10
37For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on
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FOUND IN HIM...Please do not worry, it does not effect you.
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.
Paul is talking to Christians who were Palestinian Jews, who crucified Jesus. He was also saying "If" they shall fall away (from Christianity) which is not likely...etc. He doesn't say "can not be forgiven" or "cannot be restored to salvation". To become a Jew and then disclaim the crucifiction there is no way it can be repeated to become a Christian again.
It is a hypothetical case illustration. And how could they repent to one they don't believe exists?
Remember the parable of the Prodigal Son, Luke 15:11-32 ? Sure ya do.
Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on
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I'm strongly starting to dislike this "if" word!
It's like a monster in my treasure box of absolutes.
Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on
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If you have a minute and if I can remember what I was going to say if it matters and if you want to read it if it is not to late and if you haven't signed off, what if I said:
When Paul said IF, me thinks he was saying, If it ever did happen....no you've had it.
Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on
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grrrrrrrr
Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on
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Not here, but I was going to start a discussion on Diciples..John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed in Him, "IF" ye continue in My Word, then are ye My disciples indeed;
is that OK ?
I watched Obama tonite for a while. Got sick.
God Help Us !!!!
Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on
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quote:
Originally posted by bluefrog:
Not here, but I was going to start a discussion on Diciples..John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed in Him, "IF" ye continue in My Word, then are ye My disciples indeed;
is that OK ?
I watched Obama tonite for a while. Got sick.
God Help Us !!!!
grrrrrrr
grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Hey, he was puffin around Elkhart, In today. That's just a stones throw from me. I thought to call you and Betty and see if you might like to go with me over to see him and give him big hugs and wish him well for his new American Express card.
Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on
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grrrrrrr
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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Pray for your President, don't berate him.
love, Eden
Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on
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well, I found nothing wrong with our conversation did you bluefrog? big hugs and wishing him well are blessings.
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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Found in Him wrote, almost pleadingly, to bluefrog quote:
well, I found nothing wrong with our conversation did you bluefrog? big hugs and wishing him well are blessings.
But what about Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr? Both of you Grrrrrrrrrred. Is that the new Presidential prayer??? As in, Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreat! You just left the good end off, didn't ya, cause you was too tired to finish the prayer...
love, Eden
Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on
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Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, guilty as charged!
Dear Jesus,
I pray for our leader Mr. Obama. I pray Lord that you will move upon his heart. I pray that you will show him the importance of leadership for a country that is loosing it's fear of The Lord. It's not the color of our skin, but the substance of the heart that you see. Cast us not away from Your presence, but remember those who established this country under your mighty hand, believing and trusting in you for a land of liberty and justice for all. You alone bring freedom and security to a nation. You are a just and a Holy God.
Please place upon Mr. Obama your mighty hand. Please move him and grip his heart. Please show him that he is but a man and that you are the Lord God Almighty. I pray that he will come to know you in all of your righteousness. I pray that you will, more than any man ever could-- bring “the change” that this nation needs.
Let You hand remain upon Mr. Obama and let the world witness the result there of. In Jesus name I pray.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
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Nice prayer.
Have you addressed your Congressman yet?
1Sam.16
[7] But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.
Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on
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Yup.
Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on
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This old man has addressed his congressmen so many times we are on a first name basis.
I still say that this so called bailout bill or stimulant package be thrown out completely. It is stupid and selfish. All three of my congressmen have said it the way it is.
All the answers are in the bible.
Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on
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You ask, What part of God's FREE GIFT is NOT FREE?
Did anyone come up with a dandy answer ?
Can't imagine God's Gifts costing something.
Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on
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Cost Jesus a bunch tho didn't it? That's Our Lord!
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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Found in Him wrote quote:
Cost Jesus a bunch tho didn't it? That's Our Lord!
It also cost God the Father YHWH "a bunch" because He had to look at it all unfold, and that cannot have been easy either.
I'm likewise also reminded of the pain that God the Father YHWH, and for that matter the Lord Jesus before He came to earth, how They must have suffered to see the northern house of Israel, and then the southern house of Judah, be trodden down in the streets of Samaria and Jerusalem and to have to watch the people whom He loved, be cast out like dung into the streets, eventhough Israel and Judah had become hopelessly corrupted. It must have hurt a LOT.
love, Eden
Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on
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Colossians 1
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Posted by The Beauty of Holiness777 (Member # 7380) on
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Love that prayer Found in Him. But what America fails to realize is Obama doesn't have the answers to America's condition which are getting worst. The answer is only in Jesus and only by His mighty hand working with President Obama and the congress will any results be seen.
What part of God's gift is not free? Well "Salvation" is God's free gift to men even though it has conditions. Once men has repented and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior all His promises comes with it. The only one that ever paid the ultimate price for us was and is Jesus Christ as Found in Him has stated.
God will never take the gift of Salvation back from anyone as "becauseHelives" has also stated. But men have left it (the gift of Salvation) and backslide many times.
Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on
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EDEN...Now Wait a minute here.....You opened the subject of the gift that was not free meaning not free to us, not Jesus or God.
We all know of the sacrafices from heaven but that was not what you were asking.
Posted by The Beauty of Holiness777 (Member # 7380) on
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bluefrog do any of these posts rarely go the way we start them off? How are you perking these days dear brother?
Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on
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Wellllll, some go sometimes, humm, 2 scripts. LOL
It really doesn't matter to me but it gives me a chance to razz someone. But ain't it da trut ?
As for how I am...don't ask a guy my age. They may tell you. But thanks for askin. How's yourself ?
Hugs
Posted by Glory belongs to Him (Member # 7432) on
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What is a guy your age? Getting off the topic right.
Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on
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What is a guy my age ? Old. I started my first crying session in 1936. That's old. Probably older than your parents, maybe grandparents.
I saw my first TV when I was 13 and our house had inside plumbing for the first time then too.
I bought my first car (used)for $37.50 My football helmet was leather and no face masks.
Drugs you bought at the drug store and premarital sex was almost unknown as was abortions. You could leave your home unlocked as well as your car. People who didn't work were not respected. Jails always had empty cells. I started making an income at the age of 14 and the government has never got me a job or given me any welfare money. I married a lady who I intended to live with till death do us part. It has for over 50 years. Jesus knows me by my first name. hehe
Got a little carried away. Today I was set up to get my heart checked out after seeing an Xray.
Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on
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Think they will find it?
Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on
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They found it in the xray. Said it looked broken. Which was caused by people asking such questions. Grrrrr hehe
Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on
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Not a jokin matter really tho huh?... I will be prayin for ya.
He has fixed me up a few times when I was not well, He will do the same 4u2!
Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on
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13 years ago I discovered that I had 5 tumors in my body. That was a bad day. It's a long story how they got around to discovering the problem.
There was one in the part of my brain where surgery is not workable, one in my skull, one in my upper left arm bone and two in ribs.
The doc said to get my thangs in order. I finally woke up to the fact that I didn't need to die so I asked God to heal me. My Bible study class prayed for me as well. To act on my prayer I just thanked Him for the healing and went on my way. A year later I got xrayed again. Nothing...Not even a trace of any of them.
I've been through Prostate Cancer with surgery and they tell me it's all gone. Guys get it checked !!! That is something you don't want to go through even if they get it all. (they get more that you know)
I don't turn from doctors or medications usually but the Lord will jump in and help if you ask and believe He will.
Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on
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Wow! You have been through some stuff! God truly is awesome!
I too have strange things happen like kidney stones disappearing. Some folks don't believe in healing for today but my bible says that Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. We were healed and we are healed by His stripes!
Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on
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I think you hit the nail on the head. You must believe. Many Christians who believe and love the Lord find it so hard to believe that He actually heals us. Some pastors display their drama capabilities and employ other actors. Some get healed right up front and jump and scream. Later they are found right back where they were. Said when they left the church they weren't healed anymore. Well, they probably weren't believing anymore either. Some like I mentioned are healed and it lasts but so does the faith and trust. Some have no sign of a healing, trusting or not. Explain that, I can't.
Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on
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well, I can't answer why some healing is delayed cause I don't have a clue.
But I do know that:
1. His word does not change and He is faithful
2. All children of His will get their healing one way or another.
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on
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Sometimes God's healing is in Heaven. We prayed for my dad's healing. God chose to take him home to Heaven. I miss him but I will see him again someday.
betty
Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on
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Prayer for healing is no different than other prayers in that they all get heard and answered.
If we know why we didn't get exactly what we asked for and at the proper time and at the proper place then I guess we can complain about it but if we knew that already why did we ask for it ? Recon it's best to leave it up to Him.
Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on
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BETTY...Sorry about your dad.
Just one little comment. This a general comment, not about your dad, anybody.
When you ask to heal yourself or another, you or that other person needs to understand that after the prayer they need to ACT on it. For instance, if you pray to have your vision return.
After you have asked put on a pair of glasses and sit down to read something or watch TV or the Horse Race Gazzet LOL. Expect it to happen.
He says to do it this way. No action means doubt.
Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
Sometimes God's healing is in Heaven. We prayed for my dad's healing. God chose to take him home to Heaven. I miss him but I will see him again someday.
betty
I'm sorry too about your Dad Betty. Same with my Father, he had cancer and now resides with Jesus.
My Mom also had a stroke back in Nov.07 It affected her thinking, memory and entire right side. Most days she doesn't remember who we are at all. I have prayed for her and am still waiting on God for her healing.
Posted by Glory belongs to Him (Member # 7432) on
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Just reading about your healings and testimonies.
I know for a fact that there are healings God does instantly and those healings are called miracles. Then again there are healings that God does gradually over time. But in both one must beleive that God is a rewarder. One must beleive that He is the "Balm in Gideon". He has healed me many times even when I was yet in sin HE healed me when the doctors couldn't I received medication but the condition kept coming back. But when God touch my body that day the "anionting destroyed the yoke". ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
So thrilled to hear how He has done the same for all of you too.
Bluefrog through all you have been through He has blessed you with a special sense of humor. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on
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Amen. Keep the faith.
Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on
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GLORY BELONGS TO HIM...Good to hear that you had a healing experience. It sure does seal the bond in a special way doesn't it?
For me, I was so happy that I went around and started telling what the Lord had done for me.
It was frustrating at the response that I got.
I don't know if anyone believed me from the looks and comments that I got. Well, they know what I said, and it's their loss if they don't believe it.
Posted by Dave B. (Member # 6710) on
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Hi Eden, and everyone else,
Eden I am intrigues by your February 6th reply, the part which said.
"And, to be honest, has it not been our Christian experience thus far that people who WERE Christians once upon a time, let's say when they were young, but then when they were teenagers they abandoned Jesus as being nonsense, and then, later in life, they returned to Jesus, is this not our experience in reality in Christianity, or am I mistaken about that?"
I confess that has been my experience as well as yours. People fall away and then seem to return. So the question is, what has happened?
First of all, when we say "people who were Christians" we have to ask, what does that mean? If we answer "Christians are those who have accepted Christ as their personal savior", then we run into problems right off the bat. This is because the Bible never gives "accepting Christ" as an evidence of salvation. Thus it is possible these people who, as the stony soiled peopel in Matthew 13, were never saved.
If we understand what Biblical salvation is, which is an act of God, without respect to anything we have done, then we can see that a true Christian, if they fall away, will be convicted of sin, and repent. If not, God will chastise them, and they will repent.
The Bible give evidences of salvation.
> A transformed life marked by prayer, confession, repentance and love.
> The witness of the Holy spirit that we are children of God.
If these evidences are not present in our lives, we may want to carefully examine if we are saved at all? That's why the Bible commands us to examine ourselves, to see if we r in the faith.
I hope this helps. God is powerful and sovereign, and saves those who He has purposed to save.
God bless you
Dave B.
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi Dave B.,
You havent been here for a while. Welcome back. I do have a question for you......
Why do you think it is that some people do not repent when they hear the gospel message?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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Hi, Dave B., nice to see you again. You wrote to Eden, et al., quote:
First of all, when we say "people who were Christians" we have to ask, what does that mean? If we answer "Christians are those who have accepted Christ as their personal savior", then we run into problems right off the bat. This is because the Bible never gives "accepting Christ" as an evidence of salvation.
So what about Romans 10:9-10 then?
Romans 10
9 That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
10 For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
So Dave B., how is it that you say "being saved" is an "act of God", without any input from us?
Don't people "accept with their heart" and "accept with their mouth" the Lord Jesus?
so you wrote quote:
If we answer "Christians are those who have accepted Christ as their personal savior", then we run into problems right off the bat. This is because the Bible never gives "accepting Christ" as an evidence of salvation.
Don't you think the above verses constitute "accepting Christ" unto salvation?
Please explain. Thanks, Eden
Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on
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Dave B. wrote...The Bible give evidences of salvation.
> A transformed life marked by prayer, confession, repentance and love.
> The witness of the Holy spirit that we are children of God.
If these evidences are not present in our lives, we may want to carefully examine if we are saved at all? That's why the Bible commands us to examine ourselves, to see if we r in the faith.
~~~~~
Thank you Dave for this. I was just reading to day about "the tree and it's fruit" of the saved in Matthew 7.
Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on
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Of course we must ask to be made a member of the family of God. We must throw down in disgust our past ways, repent, and submit ourselves.
Everyone here knows that. It's a GIVEN.
You ask, where does God fit into that ? You have got to be kidding. You can want and beg and pray and fill the plate with money, take a lot of baths, wear white clothes and sit in church all day but you will go no where unless you believe that Christ stepped out for you and gave his life. Even after doing that, if He doesn't see in your heart that you believe in Him it still won't happen. However, if it is in your heart to be saved, you won't be because what you did still isn't the open door. The door is opened to you through His Grace and forgiveness.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Dare I ask this, but should we possibly throw down in disgust our present ways, repent, and submit ourselves? I mean, churchianity takes over soon after we are saved and rivets us to our adopted customs, rather than life (that was not 'rivits'). Thereafter, though HE may make an appearance from time to time, otherwise Jesus isn't in it.
Posted by Dave B. (Member # 6710) on
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Hi Everyone again,
Yes it has been a long time. Thanks for remembering. Thanks also for the great questions.So, let's try to answer them from the Bible.
Let's look at Eden's question first, regarding Romans 10:9-10 13.
The call of the gospel is to believe. That "belief" the Bible calls us to have, is called faith, and we know faith is a gift from God. "Accepting Christ" is a religious act. It may be performed by someone as a result of them being saved by God. Or it may be a psychological-religious act. At the time the person performs the act, no one can tell which.
So, the Bible never gives the performance of any religious act, as the "evidence" of salvation. Unfortunately, most evangelical churches have done just that. They regard "accepting christ" as the proof that someone is saved. This is a very dangerous error, because it leads many to believe they are saved, when they are not.
So now to Daniel's question, why do some people hear the gospel and are not saved?
The answer of course is because man is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is spiritually dead. Until God makes the sinner alive, they can hear the gospel all day and never be saved. In fact Paul explains this in 1 Corinthians 2:14, when he explains "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.". The greek word for "natural" is psykikos, where we get our English word "psychological". The sinner, being spiritually dead, can at best, only make a psychological response.
So what is salvation? It is the act of God, whereby, through the hearing of the gospel, a dead sinner is regenerated. Their nature is changed. Their response is one of faith. God has determined to save a great many people. we don't know who thay are. But those who God has determined to save, will believe. Our job is never to get people to "make a decision for Christ", but instead to preach the gospel in thought, word and deed. God will use the gospel preaching to save those He has decided to save.
Read John chapter 6 in light of this. Jesus said "No man can come to me, unless the Father who sent me drag him". After this conversation, many of his followers left him.
Anyway, this is getting long. In our day and age, we have two distinctly different gospels being preached. One of them claims "accepting christ" is the "cause" of one's salvation. The biblical gospels says that "accepting christ" may be a "response" to salvation..but the evidence of true salvation is repentance, conviction of sin, obedience, prayer, confession, love etc. If these fruits are not increasing in our lives, we should as James says "examine ourselves, to see if we are in the faith".
I hope this is helpful to all of you. This applies to me as much as to anyone else.
Thanks again,
Dave B.
Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on
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MICHAEL...You will have to speak for yourself on that. That's too bad.
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi Dave B.
Obviously you realize by now that there are differing opinions on how God exercises His sovereignty in making His decision in whom He is going to save and whom He is not going to save.
The doctrine of total depravity while it may contain truth regarding our sin nature and our inability to change that on our own, it may be wrong about mans ability to respond to the gospel message itself.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on
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“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward; NOT willing that ANY should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
(2 Peter 3:9)
Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and NOT ONLY for ours but also for the sins of the WHOLE world.
Jesus Christ bore the sins for the ENTIRE world! WHOSOEVER will MAY COME!!!
17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" WHOSOEVER is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
Let's stay on track, stick to The word of God!
Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on
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If a person believes that the Bible never gives "accepting Christ" as an evidence of salvation may be because they missed it when reading the Bible. That is easy to fix though.
Read the scriptures that WildB offered above and make sure you read:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
As far as evidence, once you have submitted yourself to the Lord it is customary to make it known by being baptised. After that, you begin your journey as a disciple, glorifying Him, and submitting your self to a life as directed by Him.
Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on
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Dave wrote....... God has determined to save a great many people. we don't know who thay are. But those who God has determined to save, will believe. Our job is never to get people to "make a decision for Christ", but instead to preach the gospel in thought, word and deed. God will use the gospel preaching to save those He has decided to save.
Really? I thought God sent His Son for all!!!!
Please explain the above verses then.
Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on
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Sorry Bluefrog. I didn't realize you wrote the same thing...
My feathers are in a bunch again. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on
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Found in Him...Watch it, winter isn't over yet.
I don't know what you are talking about. I noticed where you directed your feather thang to me but why? What did I do now?
Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on
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Bluefrog.....No the feather thing was not directed to you!
Someone said something about God choosing who He would save-- that selection thing ruffled me! I will never understand why folks cannot see the length God went to to save ALL of mankind. We do the choosing bluefrog. He did everything He could to reach out to all...
Posted by Dave B. (Member # 6710) on
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Hi Bluefrog, Onein Him and everyone else.
I am glad for all of your kind responses. I will try to be more clear in this short response.
Let's look at the verse quoted by BlueFrog.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
In the original language it says God so loved the world (kosmos, which could mean creation, universe as well as people) that he gave his son, the only begotten one, that all "the ones constantly believing" into him shall not perish etc.
In this verse, the Bible is not talking about a one-time performance of a religious act, such as "accepting christ as your personal saviour". The phrase "believeth" is a present active participle. It means "the individuals constantly believing". And the word "in" is eis, "into".
So, we know that a one-time religious act, can never cause any one to be saved. The Bible is clear on this. God saves people according to his Sovereign will and according to His plan.
Again we are commanded to preach the gospel to all people. God will save those for whom Christ died. Please do not trust in your religious acts as proff of your salvation. Trust in the Biblical evidence. Examine yourselves (as I will also do) and if you find reason to believe you have not been converted, cry out to God to save you until you have the biblical assurance of faith.
Thanks again,
bro. Dave B.
Posted by Dave B. (Member # 6710) on
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Hi again everyone,
Oops I forgot to respond to the othe rverse quoted.
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward; NOT willing that ANY should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
(2 Peter 3:9)
This is of course correct. God is not willing that any should perish. Read Ezekiel 33, where God states He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his evil way and live.
This simply means that God is so kind, as well as just, that He does not take pleasure in sending men, women and children into hell. Thus, it is not God who is mean, it is us!
The call of the gospel is "believe into the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". Peter said "immediately repent, and let every one of you be baptized..". The pre-supposition of this preaching is that those who God plans to save, will hear the gospel, and the Holy Spirit will apply it to their hearts and they will be converted. Their response then, will be to exercise the faith they have received as a result of this regeneration.
Again, our response to being saved, is a transformed life. The modern churches have turned this around, to say that our response is the "cause" of our being saved. They have changed the gospel to say that "once you have accepted Jesus as your personal saviour, THEN God regenerates u and gives u eternal life". Or they say "God has done everything possible and can do nothing more. The rest is up to you". This is not the gospel.
The biblical gospel says that man is dead in trespasses and sins. It takes an act of God to change the nature of man, give him new life. This act of God is initiated and accomplished by God upon those he has chosen for his own glory and grace (the elect). Even if God only chose 10 people to be saved, it would be an astounding act of Grace. Instead, He chose a multitude. when God saves a sinner, their very nature is transformed. They are a new creature. Their response as I have said, may be to "accept Christ". But the real evidence of salvation is a transformed life, nevr a one-time religious profession.
OK I hope this is clear, if wordy. Again ty for listening with so much patience. May God bless you all.
bro. Dave B.
Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on
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Dave,
I appreciate your time that you put into writing all of the above.
You wrote....So, we know that a one-time religious act, can never cause any one to be saved....
I guess you are right about that. It is not a "religious act". It is a BORN AGAIN "real" act of The Holy Spirit that confirms witness that we are a new creation at the time of our coming to The Savior Jesus! Answering His bid to "come"!
I'm sorry. Your description of salvation and the lack of understanding of The Father's heart for ALL OF mankind does not bear record with the Spirit, word, or testimony of the believer. Not this one anyway.
Why did Jesus pay for the sins of the WHOLE world (1 John 2:2) if God had determined to just call a few? It makes Christ's cost in vain-- What in fact you are implying makes God's word of no effect...consider the cost of what you are saying.
Men can have a knowledge of scripture that is void of the power of God. I pray Christ reveals this to anyone that lacks understanding.
My rebuttal is simply this...
Jesus is God's love Poured out upon ALL mankind.
Jesus bids "come" "come unto Him" "Whosoever will" "Whosoever is thirsty" "Let him come"
Christ will take care of His own.
He is not limited.
And it's just that simple.
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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Found in Him I agree, The Heavenly Father has poured His Love (Grace) out on the whole world.
people have to try hard to reject what is freely offered to them by Yahweh. His Love and Grace is all arould them, it fills the whole earth.
people reject Yahweh's free gift not because it's not free but because they love their life as it is, and they know, if only subconsciously when Yahweh truly is allowed entrance they will have to be changed.
Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on
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DAVE...are you another one of them there bible lawyers ?
I just hate it when someone takes a word or a few words and runs them through the grape press to see what they can get out of them. That goes on here a gob.
Sorry, I don't agree with ya either. Righteousness doesn't come like a safety box at the bank with rental due now and then. Yes, I am a part of this world physically and that will not change cause I'm leavin it here. I'll be comin back but not to get my old bod. Nope.
God gave His Son for All of Us, His Life ! And I don't even like some of them, but I can live with it. Now for Jesus to say He was accepting someone in place of me that I didn't even like....well....I couldn't handle that so I've gotta be gooder, don't ya know? just kidding.
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi Dave B,
In the book of Acts Jesus gives us insight into the break-down of the elements of salvation..............."forgiveness of sin" and "sanctification". Now we know that "forgiveness of sin" does not come without confession and repentance and that "sanctification" does not come without submission to the Lord Jesus.
Apparently, under the view that you hold , an individual would be forgiven before they confess and repent and an individual would be sanctified before they submit to the Lord Jesus...........do you really think that is biblical?
I hope that you do not think that God is being too demanding on us by commanding us to repent and believe on His Son. God was never obligated to share His existence with us, and He was certainly never obligated to sacrifice His Son.
While it appears that you are attempting to take extreme caution as not to ascribe any effort on mans part to salvation, I think that you might want to be careful not to ascribe the Holy Ghost as a respecter of persons. One of the most profound revelations in the book of Acts(and in the whole bible for that matter) is the character of God as not being a respecter of persons. You ask.....how might I be making the Holy Ghost appear to be a respecter of persons? I say......by showing the Holy Ghost to be executing the function of only choosing to give some people the ability to repent and believe and leaving the rest in their sin.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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Hi, oneinchrist, how are you today. I hope you do not think that "I'm trying to prove something", but you wrote quote:
I hope that you do not think that God is being too demanding on us by commanding us to repent and believe on His Son. God was never obligated to share His existence with us, and He was certainly never obligated to sacrifice His Son.
May I ask sincerely, what exactly do you think that we as sinners should "repent from"?
Does "repent" mean "to be sorry for" and to "change my mind" and "to try not to do that behavior again"?
I tend to think that "to repent" means to "repent from running my own life" because is that not what what the first Adam did, he began to run his own life just like Lucifer-Satan had done before Adam and Eve, and so Adam and Eve began to run their own life from the soul level, and henceforth ignored their spirit input.
So it seems to me that what we need to "repent from" is "no longer running our own life" or "cease from our own works", and "letting God run our life again thru Jesus IN me".
So isn't THAT what we repent off, become WILLING not to run our own lives anymore, sine when we run our own life, sin is the result since "we cannot think straight".
And so God says: "Lean not on your own understanding" and he who has entered into his rest is he who has "ceased from his own works".
So oneinchrist, isnt't that what we repent off, we agre to no longer run our own life but letting Jesus IN us be our life now:
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me.
Jesus cannot sin so to the extent that JESUS is running the show in me, guiding my steps, I will not sin.
But to the extent that I take up the thinking reins again, to that extent will I have to CONTINUE to repent, namely, repenting of being like the first Adam again. Isn't that what repenting consists of?
If we repent of our BEHAVIOR, then we are just repenting of the SYMPTOMS of running our own life which is ALWAYS sin since we are too stupid to run our own life from the soul level without God's input.
So we do not repent from BEHAVIOR but from running our own life altogether, and God has provided for that by "Christ doing the living in me FOR me", that is, IF I "cease from my own works" first.
love, Eden
Posted by Dave B. (Member # 6710) on
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Hi again everyone,
Thank you again for your responses. It is gratifying that we can disagree on a few things, and do so in a loving and supportive way. I'll try to respond as best I can, given the usual human limitations (lol).
FoundinHim, I agree with you. Salvation is not caused by a one-time religious act. It is an act of God the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. All I am saying is that the modern method that most churches use today, claims that "accepting Christ as your personal saviour" causes God to respond by regenerating the sinner. This method is not the gospel and never has been.
I agree with you that God has poured out his love upon all mankind. Because all mankind are dead in trespassses and sins and each individual person is at enmity with God from conception (unless and until God saves them), even allowing a person to live a full life on earth without saving them, is an enormous act of love and grace. We have to remember that if God saved nobody, He would still be good and just and merciful, It is not God who has a problem. It is we who have a problem. Sin.
I also agree with you Jesus bids "come" "whosoever is thirsty" etc. I also agree with you that Jesus will take care of his own, and that he is not limited. This is exactly what I have been trying to say. Jesus is not limited, we are the ones who are limited. when Jesus said "all who the Father gives me will come to me" and when Jesus said "no man is able to come to me, unless it is given to him by my Father", he was explaining that there is no sinner, while dead in trespasses and sins, who can or will, of his own "free will" realize he is thirsty, and come to Jesus on Jesus' terms. We cannot because we are spiritually dead, unresponsive. We are also by nature, completely in love with our sin, and hate God. This is our condition before God saves us. This the biblical record.
Thus, the Father has given a remnant of humanity, chosen by Grace (see Romans 9), to Jesus. These are referred to by Jesus as "the elect" and it is only these for whom Jesus came to save. God's grace and mercy are poured out upon the whole universe (kosmos), including all people. None of us deserve any of God's mercies at all. But Jesus did not pay for the sins of every person who ever lived. He payed only for the sins of the elect. This is clearly stated in the Bible.
Jesus is not limited. The people who God has chosen to be saved from before the beginning of time (check out Ephesians 1) have unlimited and eternal forgiveness. Jesus will take care of his own, having bought them while they were still dead and still enemies of God. God does not save us because we "decided to accept him into our heart". Our hearts, before God gives us a new heart, are dead!
becauseHelives, it is not hard at all for people to reject God's offer of forgiveness. It is natural for them to reject it (see 1 Cor 2:14). The natural man can not accept the spiritual things of God because they are foolishness to him. It takes an act of God to change the heart before anyone can "let Yahweh in". Rememeber, the will is subservient to the nature. Regeneration is the first act of God in salvation. Our apparent "letting Yahweh in" is a response to this transformation, never the cause of it.
OK let me respond to onein christ's comments.
yes I agree with you, forgiveness of sin does not come without confession and repentance. The Bible is clear that confession of sin and repentance, along with obedience, prayer, love, joy, peace etc. are all evidences of salvation. But these are not the "causes" of salvation. When the Bible commands people to "believe into the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved", it pre-supposes this "belief into" Christ is Faith, and Faith itself is a gift from God. And yes, I am saying that the Bible is clear, that when we are justified (that is, declared righteous before God, apart from anything we do) and declared sanctified etc, this happens to us, and our response, either simultaneously or a microsecond afterward, is to respond as one would who has been transformed by God into a new creature. Not perfect, but changed.
I agree with you, that God is not a respecter of persons. God does not elect some people to be saved and others not, because he respects some and not others. The Bible declares that God saves people for his own reasons, his own purpose and for his own glory. God, being morally self-consistent and altogether good, does what He does for His own reasons. We cannot complain.
If God were to sit back, and wait for people to "accept Jesus as their personal saviour" and THEN save them, He would be the ultimate in respecting of persons. He would also be severely limiting Himself, waiting for people to accept His son. Putting Himself under the subjection of our will. And the people who "accept christ" could claim that they have a little bit more virtue than those who did not become saved, because "I accepted Him sincerely" and "they did not". Do you all see how this sounds?
So once again, I will summarize. The biblical gosple commands all men to repent and believe. God uses the preaching of the gospel to save the sinners who he has made an unlimited commitment to save, from before the foundation of the world. Those whom God has decided to save will, at the moment God regenerates them, respond in faith. The evidence that God has saves them, according to the Bible, is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness etc., repentance and prayer.
So, let us examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. Let us not trust in any religious acts we have performed. There is no such thing as a "carnal christian", only a "repenting christian".
Keep yourselves from idols.
Again hope this helps,
Bro Dave B.
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Good morning Eden,
Its not a bad thing if you are trying to prove something. In that earlier post, I just wanted to know exactly what it was that you were trying to prove. I am not offended by disagreements.
As far as repentance is concerned, it sounds to me like we are on the same page. I certainly would agree that repentance must first begin with a humble acknowledgement of sin and some measure of grief over our sin especially in light of the gospel message of Jesus. Now, as far as the wording that you use "to stop running your own life", I think that it would be fairly synonymous with the words that I would use to answer your question....... "to repent of our orientation of rebellion towards God".
There is an additional thing that I think is important in repentance, and that is, that, we "put on" the right attitude towards sin in light of the gospel message. After all, repentance is also defined as a change of attitude.......for ex: "I now declare sin to be my enemy". One of the reasons why I believe that the right view on sin is important is that I am convinced that a growing passivity towards sin can be used as a "leveraging tool" by the devil to lead us astray.
Eden, please understand that I do not feel that I know the perfect definition. I have tried to understand repentance by taking in account information from several different sources, including, but not limited to the bible, bible footnotes, bible dictionaries, pastor/teachers, etc.
I would like you to know that I believe that we all have sin.......why? because sin is anything that is contrary to the character of God.......but I do not believe that that knowledge gives me the right to be passive towards sin though............if I am a murderer, I must turn from it.......if I am a liar, I must stop lying........If I am living in adultery, I must get out of it. I acknowledge that I have sin because I realize that I need continual character transformation, but at the same time I declare sin my enemy and I do not "practice sin" in the sense that I despise Gods word. Thank you for fellowship Eden. I hope that we can continue to learn and grow together in the faith.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Dave B. (Member # 6710) on
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Hi BlueFrog,
I am responding to your comments separately because of your elevated status due to age and life experience.
I am very glad you have been healed from your cancer. A friend of mine from college was healed as well, and he is not a believer. We know that God heals people all the time. Many times, people are not healed and they die. One day soon, you will not be healed, and will leave this earth. I will follow you shortly thereafter (unless it is God's will that I precede you).
No I am not one fo those Bible lawyers. Like all of you, I want to understand what God is teaching, and reject the false teaching out there. So it pays to prayerfully study the Bible.
Today, in our society, we have two distinct gospels being preached by men of sincere motivation. They cannot both be true.
One gospel says:
Man is a sinner. Man has free will. Jesus paid for the sins of everyone who ever lived. This salvation is available to all, but is not valid, until the sinner, while still a sinner, uses there free will to "accept" this gift.
The presuppositions behind this gospel, which was introduced into England about 1820 by Charles Finney, is that when mankind fell, he did not become completely evil. There is still a small amount of goodness left, which enables him, if he is willing, to come to Jesus. When he comes, God will then react to his "decision" and save him. This theory of salvation is called Pelagianism.
A variation of this gospel was adopted by John Wesley and continued by Dwight L Moody and made famous by Billy Graham. This gospel again declares Christ died for the sins of all who lived, but the sinner must "accept it" of their own free will. This gospel pre-supposes that unlike Finney's gospel, man is completely evil, but Jesus' death on the cross provided each person with "prevenient grace". In essence, it made all men "save-able" if they will come forward and accept Christ. This gospel is the one most evangelical churches preach. It features the "altar call". If a person comes forward and accepts christ, they go into the decision room and taek an oral exam. If they pass, they are declared Christian. If they go back and live like the world, they are called "carnal christians" and are urged to "rededicate their lives".
Both of these gospels are false, because they rely on Man's ability to make a spiritual decision, which God then reacts to. It also makes Christ's atonement a "general atonement" for all men, and places God in the subjective place of "waiting and waiting" for sinners to decide to accept his son. This robs God of His Sovereignty.
The biblical gospel states that Man is a sinner and man has free will. But the problem is not our will, it is our nature. We are, by nature, dead in trespasses and sins. It takes an act of God to make us alive. Because God has determined a people for himself, God has planned to save a great many people. God has done this by sending Jesus to pay for their sins. These people are referred to in the Bible as "the elect". God uses the preaching of the gospel to saev his elect, by means of the Holy Spirit applying the word of God to the heart of the sinner, affecting the transformation of the heart and nature, which Jesus told Nicodemus is absolutely necessary for salvation (see John 3). This gospel pre-supposes that man is incapable and unwilling to obey God. God must change them, imparting life, giving them a new heart. Their response is to respond with their new saving Faith.
Well, again I hope this helps. I'm sorry you feel as though I am pressing grapes. Like you, I want the truth. Today's modern gospel takes the Sovereign Grace of God and turns it into just another religion. Plz don't be fooled.
Bro Dave B.
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi Dave B,
Please understand that some of us have differing "opinions" on how God exercises His Sovereignty. While some may have the view that Gods patience is a sign that He is waiting on a favorable response from us others may hold the view that time is passing by as we are being pupateered to the end to finally meet our pre-determined destiny.
What is free-will to you? I think this may be where the hang-up is. If free-will to you means that man can override the execution of Gods will being carried out, then I can understand why anyone would oppose it..........but if having "free-will" means that man "has the ability to make choices" that can play as a factor in Gods deciding whom He will save and whom He wont then we are talking a whole different baby, aren't we? Then the question becomes......will you repent? not, can you repent?.......and will you believe on the Lord Jesus?.........not, can you believe on the Lord Jesus? There is a huge difference depending on which view you hold to.
Now, what about the Holy Spirits funcion in the whole scheme of things. Well, we know that the Holy Spirit is the inspiration behind the Word of God. So then the next question is.......Has God made man capable of responding(in repentance and faith) to the gospel message, which is inspired by the Holy Ghost? If He has made us all capable, then everyone who comes under the hearing of the Word has equal opportunity to be saved..........hmmmmmmm......Then we are held accountable for whether we accept or reject it..........sounds fair to me.
But, what it sound like to me that you are saying is that God doesnt have to be fair because He is God and He doesnt have to save anyone. Yes, faith is a gift.......but I dont think it is a gift in the sense that you think.
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.........it is a gift because it comes by the hearing of the word of God.........not because God only wants to give certain individuals the ability to repent and believe and leave the rest helpless but to reject Him.
Actually, when you think about it........does it even make sense to say........"helplessly" reject?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on
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Dave wrote....Both of these gospels are false, because they rely on Man's ability to make a spiritual decision, which God then reacts to. It also makes Christ's atonement a "general atonement" for all men, and places God in the subjective place of "waiting and waiting" for sinners to decide to accept his son. This robs God of His Sovereignty.
Dave,
May I suggest to you that you do not assume to “know” “God's sovereignty” by one chapter in the bible?
Paul in Romans 9 is speaking of Israel and their –REJECTION-- to the gospel. He is speaking of the Gentiles being grafted in because of Israel's Unbelief.
You cannot get away from the other verses in the bible that reveal God's “sovereign Heart” for mankind.
1.For God so loved the –world-- that He gave His only begotten Son that –whosoever-- believes should not perish but have everlasting life.
2.God is not willing that –ANY-- should perish....
Dave,
Where is The Spirit of God in your teaching? Why did Jesus send The Holy Spirit? Why?
Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on
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Dave writes....
If God were to sit back, and wait for people to "accept Jesus as their personal saviour" and THEN save them, He would be the ultimate in respecting of persons. He would also be severely limiting Himself, waiting for people to accept His son. Putting Himself under the subjection of our will. And the people who "accept christ" could claim that they have a little bit more virtue than those who did not become saved, because "I accepted Him sincerely" and "they did not". Do you all see how this sounds?
quote:
If God were to sit back, and wait for people to "accept Jesus as their personal saviour" and THEN save them, He would be the ultimate in respecting of persons.
Let's remember God's “sovereign” patience and His Honor for His Son's FINISHED work on the cross for ALL of mankind.
quote:
He would also be severely limiting Himself, waiting for people to accept His son. Putting Himself under the subjection of our will.
Let's remember God's "sovereign" mercy upon ALL of mankind, Let's remember His WILL to send Jesus to a dying WORLD (Isaiah 53) and His Honor for His Son's FINISHED work on the cross for ALL of mankind.
quote:
And the people who "accept christ" could claim that they have a little bit more virtue than those who did not become saved, because "I accepted Him sincerely" and "they did not". Do you all see how this sounds?
Let's remember that those who “accept Christ” receive The Spirit of The Most High God living on the inside of them. There is a reason for this! BECAUSE GOD IN HIS "SOVEREIGNTY" CHOSE us to be WITNESSES of His "SOVEREIGN LOVE" ....Do you see how this sounds to a dying world?
Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on
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If you are visiting this forum and you do not know The Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Savior....I can assure you by God's Holy word, by The Spirit of The Most High God, and by the testimony of the believers and followers of Jesus Christ.... Jesus Christ came for YOU!
He died upon the cross of Calvary for the sins of the entire world and that means YOU TOO! He offers a FREE GIFT of salvation for ANYONE that calls upon the name of His Son Jesus, and it is His Spirit that calls TO YOU TODAY. He CHOSE YOU in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world. He chose to love you and make a way to reconcile you back to Himself. He CHOSE to do this through sending His Son to die for YOU.
All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We all like sheep have gone astray... Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him. To fall on His Son Jesus. He offers and extends His hand to you today, Through His Spirit and love and says "come to me" I will cleanse you from your sins and you will be mine. The offer stands and is open to ALL that receive Him. It is His love that compels you today!
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on
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To the believer: We DO NOT frustrate the grace of God!
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
The promise of what? The promise of The Holy Spirit!...
The anointing you received from God abides in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you this. Instead, because God's anointing teaches you about everything and is true and not a lie, abide in him, as he taught you to do.
Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on
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Hello DAVE ! Subject: what part of God's free gift is not free?
I certainly appreciate your attention to my response to your initial post, but don't pay much attention to it. I was just kidding about the bible lawyer thang. I throw that at everyone here from time to time. I do that cause I love em'. Pressing grapes was not nice for me to say either.
I can say one thing or more now that is to your favor, you sure have guts. If I had presented the information you gave and didn't follow up with tons of scripture I would have been on this subject for the next...who knows how long. You layed down a big 12 ounce steak as Paul might say. A few different comments that you made were somewhat hard to chew. I knew what you were saying but I always try to make my comments here as if nonbelievers were trying to understand. It was suggested that I do it that way. Example: You said it was an act of love for God to allow a person to live without being saved. I know what you mean but Noah wouldn't would he ? etc. To me though, I think He lets them live because it is in His plan or law and He can not break that. Sinners must run out their term to the judgement. Stuff like that.
Again, I know we use terms like "No sinner is aware of sin and hates God", but that is pretty hard to handle for most, including myself. But I am looking back at some very loving law abiding people who believed in and thought well of God. When I say believed, I mean as you believe you will get hurt if you believe the door is there but don't open it to walk thru.
I'm going to provide some scripture, etc., but first, ELECT or CALLED in Greek is eklektos and means "picked out".
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose,
Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant (what's left over)according to the election (those picked out)of grace.
v9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to the election (those picked out) might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth.
Comment: To understand what election means we must stay within the scripture context vs the top of our heads. There is no question that God does what He pleases....Israel as chosen people, Moses and his travels, David to rule, etc. Why Israel ? He wanted to. Believe it or not, our actions and attitudes have nothing to do with God's choices.
Election is not favoritism. It is proof of God's love and mercy. His choices make no statement about the persons chosen. It is about his love and grace.
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it to you.
Comment: Election by God does not rule out human choice. Divine election and human freedom are twin themes of scripture. Eph 1:1-11
So, as we know, we have the choice to choose the Lord as our Savior, or we can choose not to.
God predestined our choice because He knows Everything including the future. (Wow !) but if we choose not to follow Him and not to fulfill His predestination, then we can just go to hell.
Handling this matter is not an easy one this time and age. Believers are not much up on it that well and sinners will find a way out saying "How do I know I am chosen?" stuff like that. Christ's praying for for the elect only is hard for sinners to take also. Even some Christians wrestle with that statement. Especially bible lawyers...LOL rivit
Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on
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EDEN...I read what you say you think it is to REPENT. Sounds like you feel it means to turn from your running your own life and letting Jesus run it for you.
Pardner, if you just sit down and do that...you're gonna die.
To REPENT is to agree that you are a sinner and want to be forgiven for the sins. You hate them, you know they are and were wrong. We are talking about the sinful things you did, not everything. It is asking for forgiveness of your sins that Christ had to die for.
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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bluefrog wrote quote:
EDEN...I read what you say you think it is to REPENT. Sounds like you feel it means to turn from your running your own life and letting Jesus run it for you.
Pardner, if you just sit down and do that...you're gonna die.
To REPENT is to agree that you are a sinner and want to be forgiven for the sins.
So why do you think we sin? Because we try to run our own lives just like Adam and Eve did. The sins are just a consequence of our running our own lives. Stop running my own life and let Jesus IN me live the life FOR me by doing all my thinking for me and guiding my steps, since Jesus does not sin, then there is no sin.
Sins are just the symptom, the sinner is the real problem. When the sinner repents of running his own life (which he had learned from Adam and Eve), then harmony is restored as, like Jesus, we do what the Father tells us to do next, then things go well with us.
Instead of dying, Jesus and I will live more abundantly, for we "have this treasure in an earthen vessel".
love, Eden
Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on
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EDEN..While Christ is the focus in our lives, the Holy Spirit is the active agent in our lives.
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken (make alive)your mortal (liable to die)bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.
2 Cor 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
This tells you that it is not Jesus that indwells you but the Holy Spirit who intercesses with Jesus.
Once you have been saved and received your righteousness what you do is up to you. The Spirit will be there to guide you. The Spirit will not do it for you, and to prove it try it.
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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For what it is worth, I believe in free will... and I believe in election! I believe that in the free will vs election debate you have to hold both sides... why? Because the Bible teaches both! Going to either extremes is dangerous. I know that it may not satisfy our little brains completely as we like everything to fit logically into our little boxes but it is the only way to go and you will find that the best Bible teaches in ages past generally taught both sides. For example, H.A Ironside gave the illustration of the sinner coming to the gates of Heaven and above the gate it reads "Whosoever will, let him come" (Rev. 22:17). As he accepts this gracious invitation and goes through the gates into Heaven, he sees written on the other side - "Chosen...in Him before the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4). Which is true? Whosoever can come or that we are elected and chosen of God? Both. Free will and chosen by God. The Bible teaches both so we must accept both even if it does do some mental gymnastics with our little brains!
In like manner, Charles Spurgeon said that free will and election are like two parallel lines that don't ever seem to touch. But he said that if you follow them far enough, all the way up to Heaven, then they do meet each other. When asked how he reconciles free will and election, Spurgeon replied 'You don't have to reconcile friends!" In other words, we look at the issue down here and think there is no way that both can be true but the great Bible teachers knew that both were true and they held both. And in eternity we shall see that they two thoughts were no against each other but were friends!
If you just hold to election/predestination then it can lead you down the path that some are elected for Hell. Which is NOT what the Bible teaches and is an insult to a loving God. But, as a Christian, if you give up on the election track and just go with free will, then you'll miss a whole lot more of what the Bible teaches about that it is God who chose you, and it is God that is holding you and keeping you safe in this salvation.
C.H.M, one of my favorite old writers wrote about this in "One sided theology". He wrote:
"He, blessed be His Name, has not confined Himself within the narrow limits of any school of doctrine, high, low, or moderate. He has revealed Himself. He has told out the deep and precious secrets of His heart. He has unfolded His eternal counsels, as to the Church, as to Israel, the Gentiles, and the wide creation. Men might as well attempt to confine the ocean in buckets of their own formation as to confine the vast range of divine revelation within the feeble enclosures of human systems of doctrine. It cannot be done, and it ought not to be attempted. Better far to set aside the systems of theology and schools of divinity, and come like a little child to the eternal fountain of Holy Scripture, and there drink in the living teachings of God's Spirit.
Nothing is more damaging to the truth of God, more withering to the soul, or more subversive of all spiritual growth and progress than mere theology, high or low—Calvinistic or Armenian. It is impossible for the soul to make progress beyond the boundaries of the system to which it is attached. If I am taught to regard "The Five Points" as "the faith of God's elect," I shall not think of looking beyond them; and then a most glorious field of heavenly truth is shut out form the vision of my soul. I am stunted, narrowed, one-sided; and not only so, but I am in danger of getting into that hard, dry state of soul which results from being occupied with mere points of doctrine instead of with Christ.
A disciple of the high school of doctrine will not hear of a world-wide gospel—of God's love to the world—of glad tidings to every creature under heaven. He has only gotten a gospel for the elect. On the other hand, a disciple of the low or Arminian school will not hear of the eternal security of God's people. Their salvation depends partly upon Christ, and partly upon themselves. According to this system, the song of the redeemed should be changed. Instead of "Worthy is the Lamb'," we should have to add, "and worthy are we." We may be saved today and lost tomorrow. All this dishonors God, and robs the Christian of all true peace. C.H.Mackintosh, "One Sided Theology,"
Sooooo....To keep it simple, if you're thinking about those that don't know Christ yet, think 'Whosoever will' for they stand outside the gate and the offer of salvation is available to all. Christ didn't just die for some but 'for God so loved the world that He gave...' But, when thinking of Christians, you can also think 'Chosen before the foundation of the world!' (Eph 1:4) And that means security in the family of God. Great thought.
I hope this helps. Don't go to extremes on this one.
Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on
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BECAUSE HE LIVES...Well Said. I was agreeing with you before you wrote this when I said tha Divine election and human freedom are twin themes. And you are right again by saying not to get too hung up on this. He has told us what we need to know and we don't need to go to court over it.
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi again Dave B,
You continue to assume that God has not given mankind the ability to respond in repentance and faith. I wonder if that could be a discredit to the influence that God and His Word has had on the hearts of men in times past and even up till this very day.
If your born-again theology is correct(born again and then enabled to respond in faith and repentance), then men would never even need to seek to understand the meaning of repentance towards God and faith towards Jesus, would they?.......it would just happen........and you could not be accused of making the Holy Ghost out to be a respecter of persons.
But, if your theology is incorrect, then men really need to understand what repentance towards God and faith towards Jesus means.........and you are guilty of showing the Holy Ghost to be a respecter of persons.......and that is equivalent to calling Good evil.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on
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Predestined, foreknowledge, justified, glorified, predetermined, ordained, called, chosen, destined.....
Those are ALL big words for mere men but not when looked at with the HEART of God in mind.
It's not a matter of going to court, spiritual food for the “mature”, the deep hidden things of God or matter of opinion.
It's a matter of truth bottom line.
Where is The Spirit of God here?
1 Timothy 2
1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants ALL men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for ALL men—the testimony given in its proper time.
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him;"
Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on
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ONE IN CHRIST...and DAVE B....
One in Christ, thanks for pointing out that Dave claimed that God hasn't given the ability to man to respond in repentance in faith to be saved.
I forgot about it. Dave wrote a pretty heavy script. Anyhoo, that point I also have a hard time agreeing with.
2 Cor 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of; but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of His goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Note: True faith in God will always be expressed buy turning from evil as one turns to the Lord.
Whatchathink Dave ? I hope that bugs ya. From a frog that is a compliment, don't ya know ?
Note: Like the bible says, we don't do all of our repenting prior to salvation. Some of us have to learn what to repent of even. It also, is a learning process.
Lord...we know we're messed up but please don't give up on us. Hugs!
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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bluefrog wrote quote:
2 Cor 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
This tells you that it is not Jesus that indwells you but the Holy Spirit who intercesses with Jesus.
Once you have been saved and received your righteousness what you do is up to you. The Spirit will be there to guide you. The Spirit will not do it for you, and to prove it try it.
Well, I currently tend to agree with you that Jesus is in heaven seated at the right hand of the Father, and the Holy Spirit is like a TV receiver/crystal in me.
Then from heaven Jesus sends His counsel of what I should do next to His Holy Spirit and then the Holy Spirit relays to my spirit what Jesus has counseled I should do next, as Jesus guides my steps.
But it is still up to me to decide whether to implement all of His counsel.
In fact, a question that I have for Michael Harrison is whether Michael Harrison thinks that Jesus will even operate Michael's soul level for Michael, or does Michael still have to decide for himself whether to "implement Michael's ideas" or "Jesus's ideas"?
Or, is it possible that I SO-O end up trusting that Jesus by way of the Holy Spirit is MUCH SMARTER than me, so that I can even let Jesus opearate my soul level FOR ME, while I just sit back and enjoy?
love, Eden
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
:
Hey Eden,
I like the illustration that you gave concerning the communication between Jesus and us believers. It reminded me of the testimony that I shared with you guys a ways back of an anwered prayer of mine..............I prayed to Jesus......but the answer to my prayer came back in the third person..........."Jesus did not exalt Himself"
The manner in which I received that answer was confirmation to me that the Holy Spirit is real, and He can communicate things to us about Jesus. Of course I still searched the scriptures for validation of what I heard.......and I found plenty of it.
By the way, in case people are wondering.......I do not get answers to prayer like this on a regualar basis. This was only one of two times that I have received a word answer to a question that I was asking in prayer. The other answer came when I prayed to Jesus before going to bed asking Him about this pain( with a heightened inner sense of hopelessness, sadness, and desperation)that I was going through.........and I heard the words "learning humility" just before I awoke in the morning. I immediately remembered my prayer after I heard the words.
with love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on
:
I find that the way the Lord answers prayers is way past amazing. If we look and listen it becomes evident in many cases that He responds when and where it pleases Him. In turn, I find it very pleasing also. It is such a joy to smile and thank Him. Even the prayers that I find no response to brings on joy and a smile as well, because He knows best, and that is so perfect.
Furthermore, I can't help but believe that He enjoys blessing us and finding the perfect time to do it. What a beautiful experience.
Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on
:
Awwwwwwwwww....you guys just bless me! He is good ain't He?
Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on
:
Somethin else that's nice is the crowd He draws.
Posted by Dave B. (Member # 6710) on
:
Hi Everyone,
Well there is certainly a lot to respond to here. Of course, time precludes a complete response to all of your comments. So, we will just respond to a couple of your statements and then come back later.
First I'll respond to one of Daniel's posts. First, regarding the differing views on free-will and salvation. It doesn't matter at all which views there are "out there". The only view that matters is the biblical view. OK? Whichever view the Bible teaches, is the correct view.
Regarding free-will. Man has free-will. OK? But, man's free-will is NOT the problem. According to the Bible, the problem is with Man's nature. Man is spiritually dead. Spiritually speaking, all men are born a non-responsive spiritual corpse.
I Cor 2:14 sums it up very succinctly. The natural man is not able to "accept" the spiritual things of God, for they are foolishness to him.." The word for "natural" is "psykikos" from which we get "psychology" from. The spiritually dead sinner, by himself, cannot make a spiritual move toward God. The best a sinner can do is make a psychological decision.
So again, man has free will, but it is man's dead nature that is the problem.
Regarding God "puppeteering men" into the Kingdom. The Bible does not refer to us as "robots" or "puppets". It refers to us as "slaves". Jesus said that all who commit sin are the slaves of sin. To make a slave free, and to make a dead person alive, requires an act of God.
Salvation is an act of God, not in response to a prior act of Man. God must transform the sinner's nature, so that the free will may respond in faith. This God does because God is gracious, not because he is fair or unfair. If God were only fair, we would all be in hell right now.
So again, the call of the gospel goes out "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". Those who God has determined to save, will believe. Thier nature's will eb transformed. They will respond in faith, and they will begin to show the marks of grace.
Examine yourselves to see if those marks of grace are evident in your life. If not, Please! do not trust in a religious act that you may have performed some time in your life. Your church may call that act salvation. But the Bible does not.
Thanks again for listening,
Dave B.
Posted by Dave B. (Member # 6710) on
:
Hi again everyone,
Here is a good sermon from yesterday. It was preached by our Pastor yesterday at 11:00am on salvation.
http://www.sgbcsv.org/sermons/200903011100.m3u
You can also go on our site and listen in.
Hope this helps,
Dave B.
Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on
:
Dave writes...Regarding free-will. Man has free-will. OK? But, man's free-will is NOT the problem. According to the Bible, the problem is with Man's nature. Man is spiritually dead. Spiritually speaking, all men are born a non-responsive spiritual corpse.
Dave writes...
I Cor 2:14 sums it up very succinctly. The natural man is not able to "accept" the spiritual things of God, for they are foolishness to him.." The word for "natural" is "psykikos" from which we get "psychology" from. The spiritually dead sinner, by himself, cannot make a spiritual move toward God. The best a sinner can do is make a psychological decision.
So again, man has free will, but it is man's dead nature that is the problem.
I write...
This is false Dave ... For if this were true, Children that pass away before they are old enough to make a decision for Christ would perish and never make it to heaven. Sorry, Jesus loves the little children-- they are accepted.
Dave writes...
Salvation is an act of God, not in response to a prior act of Man. God must transform the sinner's nature, so that the free will may respond in faith. This God does because God is gracious, not because he is fair or unfair. If God were only fair, we would all be in hell right now.
I write...
False Dave... The experience of a born again is an act of God BUT requires man's acceptance to His "call" Our "nature" is changed ONLY when we ACCEPT His Spirit.
Dave writes...
So again, the call of the gospel goes out "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". Those who God has determined to save, will believe. Thier nature's will eb transformed. They will respond in faith, and they will begin to show the marks of grace.
I write:
False Again... Faith comes by hearing The Word of God, God offers ALL to come, WHEN they accept and are born again they will be transformed.
Examine yourselves to see if those marks of grace are evident in your life. If not, Please! do not trust in a religious act that you may have performed some time in your life. Your church may call that act salvation. But the Bible does not.
I Write...
Dave, What you are proposing here does not come from The Spirit of God! I will trust in the living word of God. His words are Spirit, and they are life!
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
:
Dave B.
You soooooooo assume that God does not consider our response towards Him when deciding whom He is going to save and whom He is not going to save? You soooo assume that God has not given men the ability to respond in repentance and faith when having heard the Word........you so assume that the workings that God has done among us in times past up till this day have not had any impact on our lives and our consciences giving us more and more acute awareness of good and evil..........and lastly I hope you dont sooooo assume that you are saved solely based on a confidence in a particular theological and chronological understanding of scripture.
My hope is that if you have any confidence, it comes from the positive impact that God has had on others through you in drawing others to the understanding of the nature of His love.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on
:
Dave B...And me makes three. Sorry bout that.
Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on
:
me thinks me sees Lion tracks
me likes!
Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on
:
DAVE B
Roses are red,
Froggies are blue,
Lions feet are big,
But you got no clue. ![[pound]](graemlins/pound.gif)
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
:
Hi again Dave,
After Jesus rose from the dead and ascended to the right Hand of the Father, the outpouring of the Holy Ghost was authorized. Do you mean to tell me that until the day that the outpouring began every man that turned to God in times past only turned to Him "mentally?". C'mooooon.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on
:
Dave, this is where I get some of my information.
John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on Him, If ye continue in My word, then are ye My disciples indeed; v32)And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Romans 6:13 Neither yield (present)ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin; but yield (present)yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
v19) I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh; for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die; but if ye through the Spirit do mortify (are putting to death) the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Also, my bible translates "Natural" man to be "psuchikos" in Greek but I can't find it in my Greek dictionary in the concordance. But I don't think it means phychological. A natural man is a guy who does things that embarasses his wife in public n' stuff.
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
:
bluefrog, these lines of yours made me laugh: quote:
"Also, my bible translates "Natural" man to be "psuchikos" in Greek but I can't find it in my Greek dictionary in the concordance. But I don't think it means phychological. A natural man is a guy who does things that embarasses his wife in public n' stuff.
Strong's Concordance: natural
1 Corinthians 2:14 But 1161 the natural 5591 man 444 receiveth 1209 not 3756 the things 3588 of the Spirit 4151 of God 2316: for 1063 they are 2076 foolishness 3472 unto him 846: neither 2532 3756 can 1410 he know 1097 [them], because 3754 they are spiritually 4153 discerned 350.
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown 4687 a natural 5591 body 4983; it is raised 1453 a spiritual 4152 body 4983. There is 2076 a natural 5591 body 4983, and 2532 there is 2076 a spiritual 4152 body 4983.
1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit 235 that [was] not 3756 first 4412 which is spiritual 4152, but 235 that which is natural 5591; and afterward 1899 that which is spiritual 4152.
natural 5591
5446 phusikos; pheeseekos, "physical", i.e. (by implication) instinctive:--natural. Compare 5591.
5591 psuchikos psookheekos' from 5590; sensitive, i.e. animate (as distinct from 4152 which is the higher or renovated nature; and on the other from 5446, which is the lower or bestial nature):--natural, sensual.
4153 pneumatikos adverb from 4152; non-physical, i.e. divinely, figuratively:--spiritually.
From these three stems above we can see that we humans are NOT PHYSIKOS (5446) and we are NOT PNEUMATIKOS (4153), but we are ... kinda right inbetween there, a PSUCHIKOS 5591 like "Get Smart".
love, Eden
Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on
:
EDEN...That was very kind of you to look that up for us.
I must that I haven't learned how to read the Greek Dictionary. Seldom go there.
So, it sounds like the reference to Natural man, psykikos was incorrect and did not mean phychological man. Am I right ?
Sounds like my bible dictionary had it right. It being Psuchikos, meaning what again ?
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
:
quote:
EDEN...I must [say] that I haven't learned how to read the Greek Dictionary. Seldom go there.
I don't read the Greek Dictionary either and never go there. I go to www.eliyah.com and click on Strong's Concordance in the lefthand column, and then type in the word "natural", and it brings up all the occurrences of "natural" in the Bible. I don't use a Greek "dictionary" but a Greek/Hebrew "concordance" at www.eliyah.com. It's free to use. Great Bible tool.
bluefrog, you also said quote:
So, it sounds like the reference to Natural man, psykikos was incorrect and did not mean phychological man. Am I right?
Okay, bluefrog. "psuchikos" is the adjective of "psuche" and "psuche" is the Greek equivalent of "nephesh" or "creature" in the Hebrew Old Testament (OT).
When the Hebrew OT was translated into Greek in Alexandria somewhere around 250 B.C., the word "nephesh" is translated by "psuche".
You may recall our earlier discussion about man becoming a "nephesh hayya" in Genesis 2:7, which the KJV translated as "living soul". And further, that all animals also were called "nephesh hayya" or "living creatures" in Genesis 1.
So whenever the translators of the Hebrew/Aramaic OT into Greek for the Greek Septuagint version, and whenever the translators saw "nephesh" they translated it as "psuche".
So the Greek New Testament says that we are "psuchikos", or "natural", but more probably it means "living creature". So Paul says that our current body is "psuchikos":
1 Corinthians 15
44 It is sown a natural {Greek, psuchikos} body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural {Greek, psuchikos} body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul {a living "psuche" same as "nephesh hayya" or "living creature" in the OT}; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural {Greek, psuchikos}; and afterward that which is spiritual.
So to summarize, bluefrog, psuchikos comes from "psuche" and "psuche" is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew "nephesh" or "creature".
love, Eden
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