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Author
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Topic: predestination.
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
Forever His wrote to Bloodbought quote:
As I thought more about this post I had more problems trying to make sense of the idea that people have no free will. I have the ability to choose to post to this thread ... or not... I can choose to treat you kindly and with love ... or ignore you
And I also do not think that God can on the one hand ask me to "love my neighbor as myself" and then God at the same time proceeds to "do evil" like not treating my neighbor nicely.
Because in Bloodbought's view, God would have to "induce every thought and every act in man", bot the good thoughts and the bad thoughts and good choices and bad choices ("as a man thinks in his heart, so is he") so how can God ask me to "love my neighbor as myself" and then "be mean thru me to my neighbor"? That does not make any sense, does it?
love, Eden
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Eden
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posted
Hi, Bloodbought, Eden had written: quote:
Earth is an inanimate object, or at least is not configured to have a relationship with God while humans are configured to have a relationship with God.
You replied: quote:
If the earth has no relationship with God, then how come it has responded to God's commands in the past? Remember the storm on the Sea of Galilee? Remember the earth stood still?
Okay, fair enough and good one; I agree. But the earth IS a different instrument than man. Eden also wrote quote:
If man had no free will on earth, man would not be able to decide whether to remain a sinner or to become a saved sinner. I presume you chose Him at some point…?
You answered: quote:
No, He chose me.
Eden here: True, Jesus said, "you have not chosen Me, I have chosen you." Yet did it not feel like you chose Him when you chose Him? So you are saying that God gave me the thought and ability to accept the gospel? Could be. Eden also said[quote]So after the sin in the garden, Adam and Eve were making their own choices. They were no longer interested to listen or hear from God after their fall, which means they were making their own choices.
You answered quote:
Yes, and what was their choice? “Death.”
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Everyone ever since is dead and anything dead isn’t capable of making a choice.
I'm not sure about this one. I think Adam and Eve could still make cboices, only their choices, like Lucifer's, were now without input from God. Indeed, from that point God wanted to show Adam and Eve what would happen to them and to the earth if they were "going to make their own choices without God's input".
And today we see the result of their choices. Or are you saying that God created today's circumstances.
Now let me be clear abou this: I do think that God can and does interfere with man's created circumsances, according to HIS plans and purposes while Adam and Eve are "still doing their thing".
Except that, since the first coming of Jesus, Christians have been saved and are hopefully listening to the Holy Spirit again for their choices and are hopefully also reading the Word of God to "improve their choices".
Eden also said quote:
Genesis 3
9 And the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, Where are you?
10 And he {Adam} said, I heard Your voice in the garden and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.
He hid himself.
And Bloodbought, you answered quote:
Why did he hide himself? Well, you have supplied us with the answer,
Gen 3:10 And he {Adam} said, I heard Your voice in the garden and I was afraid because I was naked;
Now the question is, did God have a purpose in Adam’s fall or was He caught out?
In other words, was it God's will for Adam to fall, or did Adam fall by his own will?
Regarding the bolded parts, God gave Adam and Eve a command in the garden of Eden BEFORE their fall, namely, "do NOT eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".
As long as Adam and Eve OBEYED that command by CHOOSING NOT to eat of the tree of knowledge and good and evil, God and Adam and Eve had a great ongoing relationship.
To propose that God MADE Adam and Eve eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil would create a contradictory situation because God had already said, "do NOT eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil". God would never do that.
So in your scenario, Bloodbought, God would have had to MAKE Adam and Eve fall, and there would have been no need for that if Adam and Eve had NOT eaten of the tree of life.
In other words, BEFORE the fall, God and Adam and Eve ALREADY HAD a perfect relationship. Why have Adam and Eve go "thru hell on earth" just to "get back to that perfect relationship"?
Why? Because God wanted to show Adam and Eve and man what would happen to them and to the earth IF Adam and Eve ate of the "tree of knowledge of good and evil"?
It seems rather to me that BECAUSE Adam and Eve, like Lucifer before them, now DECIDED to eat of the tree of knowledge that these dire consequences began to show up.
I.e., they died "spiritually" because their spirit was no longer being "quickened" by the Holy Spirit, now that they were "on their own".
And with the withdrawal of the Holy Sirit, their physical bodies also died quicker, and so we see the ages gradually diminish from Adam to Abraham until the average age of a Bible man is "70" or "80".
Adam and Eve's descendants died "spiritually" but they did NOT die physically except that they did die physically sooner rather than later because the revitaziling Spirit of God was no longer helping them.
But even a live, physical Adam and Eve can make their own choces because they have "eaten from the tree of good and evil".
Unsaved people are operating their own bodies from their soul level, but are not receiving input for their choices from their spirit. But bornagain Christians are again getting help from God and Jesus and from the Holy Spirit and from the written Word of God.
But we are still making choices, only now our choices are way better and are hopefully "what the Spirit is saying to the churches".
Unsaved people are spiritually dead, but they are still very much alive and they will need to be PHYSICALLY SUBDUED when Jesus comes the Second Time.
love, Eden
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The Beauty of Holiness777
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Member # 7380
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posted
quote:
Bloodbought wrote:
Philip is a picture of the work of the Holy Spirit teaching the eunuch the meaning of the scripture he was reading. In the earlier verses we see how the Spirit had Philip directed to the eunuch at just the right time. The eunuch was predestined for salvation and ultimately heaven.
So if that is the case then all men whether they chose Salvation or not is predestined to have freewill to go to heaven if they accept Salvation.
Because all of us who are saved today it was at a certain point of time that the Word of God was presented and explained to us and we understood it and accepted it.
All of us have had and will have a word sent to us through God's Word calling us to Repentance and Salvation. God does ordain the means, the time and the circumstance for All man to have a chance to be saved. Not saying All will be saved but God is Just and Righteous.
No man will ever stand before God and say I never heard your Word I never heard of Jesus Christ nor about being baptize for the remission of sins. His Word will be taught and heard in all the four corners of the earth. Whether man accept or reject it's up to them.
Even in the time of "The Great Tribulation" God will still be giving men and women a chance to be saved.
quote:
If God is willing that All universally would come and be saved and All are not saved, that would make God so weak He would cease to be God. The All is the sheep only. God is willing that all the sheep are saved.
They are predestined for Salvation.
GOD WILL NEVER BE WEAK OR CEASE TO BE GOD! WHETHER THERE BE THREE OF FOUR SAVED GOD WILL ALWAYS BE MIGHTY AND BE THE TRUE AND LIVING GOD!
Yes! It is God's Will that All be saved that is definitely scripture.
But let's take it farther down in His Word:
John 3:16-17 says;
God gave His only begotten Son that "WHOSOEVER" believeth in Him shall have everlasting life.
WHOSOEVER is not All this sounds like a individual acceptance to me in fact I know it is.
Meaning that All will not believe, but the one that does has God's promise.
17. For God sent not His Son into the world to
condemn the world; but that the world through
Him MIGHT BE SAVE.
God's Word is never saying that All men will be saved. But He is so merciful, compassionate, loving and just He loves His creations enough to give them a chance to be saved.
If not it's not God's doing but men!
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In God I'am Complete.
I am a "Spiritual Being" living in a physical body.
{Prayer - a force that reaches people and places when we can't}
Posts: 192 | From: God's Universe | Registered: Sep 2008
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The Beauty of Holiness777
Advanced Member
Member # 7380
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posted
[QUOTE] Originally posted by OneinChrist;
Hi again Bloodbough, Let's say I come to you and ask you "What must I do to be saved? What would you tell me?
Beleive on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. (Acts 16:31)
We are supposed to tell them all of God's Word on what they must do to be saved.
Acts 2:38
Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins as well as Acts 16:31.
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In God I'am Complete.
I am a "Spiritual Being" living in a physical body.
{Prayer - a force that reaches people and places when we can't}
Posts: 192 | From: God's Universe | Registered: Sep 2008
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Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
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posted
Puppet? This term comes up once and a while. What is wrong with it? Fear! For some reason people fear the notion of abandoning self to His control. But what is control? It is being 'led' by His Spirit. And being led is, if carried to its conclusion, 'being moved by Him'. That is what it is to be led. So the term 'puppet' is kind of wooden, but it sort'of illustrates what it is to be moved by Him.
And all of your trials are arranged by Him. And where we depart from the puppet notion is in the fact that we have 'free will', and can respond according to the flesh, or we can yield to the Spirit. In other words, we can tie His hands in unbelief, or unwillingness, or minister Him by moving with Him and by Him.
Of course this means that what is happening is that we are letting the 'sap' flow through the vine (or branch). The final result may not be apparent, but whenever His will is followed, we can be sure that HE is glorified.
So, HE is in control with our submission; or HE is in control in spite of us. Different fruit is borne depending.... But His word will not 'return to Him void'.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Bloodbought
Advanced Member
Member # 4365
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi again Bloodbought,
Lets pretend that I am unconverted. Lets pretend that I am an unbeliever for a moment. Please dont worry about what my profile says. I am asking you again what does it mean to believe on the Lord Jesus? I need for you to describe what it means so I can understand it better. I am an unconverted man who has heard of Jesus but knows very little about Him. I also have heard of heaven and hell and the whole thought of there being a hell scares me.
Now what would you tell me?..... in your own words please.
With love in Christ, Daniel
No, you can’t pretend. This is no game. If someone comes to me for real I’ll give him or her the truth with the help of the Holy Spirit.
The reality is that I don’t even know what the Holy Spirit would direct me to say even in a real situation, because every situation is different, so it’s futile to try to use my words in a pretend situation. Sorry.
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oneinchrist
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Member # 6532
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posted
Hi again Bloodbought,
Lets pretend that I am unconverted. Lets pretend that I am an unbeliever for a moment. Please dont worry about what my profile says. I am asking you again what does it mean to believe on the Lord Jesus? I need for you to describe what it means so I can understand it better. I am an unconverted man who has heard of Jesus but knows very little about Him. I also have heard of heaven and hell and the whole thought of there being a hell scares me.
Now what would you tell me?..... in your own words please.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Bloodbought
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Member # 4365
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi again Bloodbought,
So you tell me that I need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and then I ask you "What does it mean to believe on the Lord Jesus?" What do you tell me then?
With love in Christ, Daniel
I see In your profile at the question,
Have you placed your faith in Jesus Christ?: You said Yes.
So I won’t preach to the converted, but if you want to know if you have been predestined for heaven consider the following.
Acts 8:35-38 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Philip is a picture of the work of the Holy Spirit, teaching the eunuch the meaning of the scripture he was reading. In the earlier verses, we see how the Spirit had Philip directed to the eunuch at just the right time. The eunuch was predestined for salvation and ultimately heaven.
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Bloodbought
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Member # 4365
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Beauty of Holiness777:
This is a very terrible statement to make that God has predestinated some for one place and some for another. It is not valid nor is it according to clear teaching of God's Word.
Do you believe God is sovereign in all things, or is God depending on man?
The bottom line is that God has decreed both good and evil and whatever God has decreed will most definitely come to pass. You may not feel comfortable with this because you think this is saying that God can do evil, but bear with me while I try to explain.
God is in control of all things, not just some things, ALL things. After all He made all things for His own glory. He is in control of all the affairs of men. He doesn’t force men against their will, but makes them willing through circumstances to perform His will. He doesn’t just create the end product without creating the means to that end. For example, if He has decreed a field of wheat, He has also decreed that a farmer will be raised up and moulded with the will and the skill to plough and sow a field of wheat. In the same way, if He has decreed for someone to be saved, He has also decreed that they hear the gospel and the word will germinate and take root in their heart. Mark 4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.
The same principals apply to evil, but God never causes evil. Satan causes evil, but Satan is under Gods control as in the case of Job when he wasn’t allowed to take Jobs life. When God decreed for all the evil to befall Job, it was more a test of God than of Job.
It was as if God said, come on now Satan, consider my servant Job, have a go at him, but you are bard from taking his life. When God give Job life, He also gave him eternal life and Satan couldn’t take it from him. God turns evil round for good for His own Glory.
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
God has a purpose for evil and He has a purpose for good to bring all things into line with His will and purpose and nothing will thwart His decree.
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi again Bloodbought,
So you tell me that I need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and then I ask you "What does it mean to believe on the Lord Jesus?" What do you tell me then?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Bloodbought
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forever His:
Okay... so again... I'm not trying to poke fun at your idea. I do have a point that I would like to make and that is this. The whole point of serving God is because we "Love" Him and want to do what is right. We are not mere pupets which if I understand you correctly... that is what we would have become.
You used the word “puppets,” that’s your idea not mine. I prefer the term “divine appointments.”
Job 23:14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.
Its good to love.
NAS 1 Corinthians 13:1-13 1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Then we read.
KJV 1 John 4:16-17 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love ; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
“as he is, so are we in this world.” What does that mean to you?
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Bloodbought
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi again Bloodbought,
Lets say that I come to you and I ask you "What must I do to be saved?" What would you tell me?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house Acts 16:31.
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Michael Harrison
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Member # 6801
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posted
quote:
MoreForever... quote:
Okay... so again... I'm not trying to poke fun at your idea. I do have a point that I would like to make and that is this. The whole point of serving God is because we "Love" Him and want to do what is right. We are not mere pupets which if I understand you correctly... that is what we would have become.
If we want to 'do' what is right, we will surrender to the belief that HE is in control. It is the most personal trust that we can have. Puppets however do not have free will. We do. We can surrender, or not. But to be as a puppet is to 'trust' God to the infinite degree. For who cares better for us than HE?
- Luk 12:25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
- Luk 12:26 If ye then be not able to 'do' that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?
- Luk 12:27 Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
- Luk 12:28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?
Another scriptural way to say this, and the most profound, is:
- Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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posted
quote:
El Bloodbought: quote:
Yes, every move is under the command of God, down to the minutest detail. Therefore, man does not have free will.
I am exceedingly glad to see that you believe it. However let me take issue with that Bloodbought. I believe that God is absolute! That HE is God means that HE can create at will. That HE is Lord means that HE is over everything. I believe that HE is in control of everything, animate, and inanimate, and the affairs of men also. Our surrender it is our blessing. That said, it does not mean that we do not have free will. We most certainly do. Free will is the reason why we ‘sin’. (Uh-oh!) When HE is in control of everything is when we abide in Him, and rise out of sin. When HE is not is when we override HIS control by exercising our will.
And surrender of our will, of course, means that is when we are ’under the Cross’. That most clearly means that ‘not’ to surrender our will means that we do not abide in Him. We are not under the Cross. In this case HE is nevertheless still in control, however HE is so, in spite of us.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
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posted
Hi again Bloodbought,
Lets say that I come to you and I ask you "What must I do to be saved?" What would you tell me?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Bloodbought
Advanced Member
Member # 4365
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
When God created Adam and Eve he created them with a moral consciousness(not meaning that they immediately knew between right and wrong or good and evil, but that they would have the ability to distinguish between the two when it was presented to them by God. They understood "thou shalt" and they equally understood that "thou shalt not" had a consequence linked to it. We know this by the fact that they hid themselves after they had done wrong. After the ten commandments were delivered to men mans moral consciousness was exercised even more. Gods word was laying an impression on peoples lives and men were responding in belief or unbelief. Then God promised that He was going to establish a New Covenant for the old did not deal with our sin in a perfect way. Jesus was sent into the world and walked among us. He died and rose again and the word of salvation was spread among us. Our consiousness then being seared by the knowledge of a God who chooses to love us despite our sinfullness. Indeed God has made a way for us to be saved from our sin. Now there is a command to all men to repent and an invitation to all men to accept the Gift of God.
Now do you say that God commands all men everywhere to repent, but only causes a few to follow that command?
Psalm 65:4 4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.
quote:
And do you say that God causes men to accept The Gift, and He causes the rest to reject It.
Is that your position?
Malachi 1:2-3 2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, 3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Proverbs 16:4 4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
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scythewieldor
unregistered
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posted
Dear Believers,
One of the things we must do to understand the term, predestination, is to lift it from the "buzz-line-theological" and set it in the "scripture-practical". (The way you know a thinker is how readily he is able to coin words. Just kiddin'.)
First, deal with this thing about the sun and earth.
I would like you to notice how completely we have bought into naturalism which denies the existence of angels. (That is the exact opposite of the old problem- the worship of angels.) How inanumate are the hosts of heaven?
quote:
Ge 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
The sun and the moon rule the day and the night.
quote:
Isa 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
The sun can be confounded. The moon can be ashamed.
quote:
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Morning stars sing.
quote:
Jer 31:35 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
What would ordinances have to with inanimate heavenly entities?
When we pray, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven", and we find out that things in heaven are run by ordinances just as things on earth are, maybe there are things concerning the heavenly hosts that we do not understand.
What if the heavenly objects had been assigned angelic hosts the resposibility of which was to make the objects behave according to God's ordinances? We, really, have NOT seen deeply enough into those things to make strong assertions.
quote:
Co 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
Next point:
When God made Adam, Adam and his seed were predestined for glory- they were made in the image of God, and they were given dominion "over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth".
Mankind was being trained in faith within the constraints of the elements/rudiments of their kosmos. (For us who are in Christ, all things are become new.)
quote:
Ga 4:1 ¶ Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Ga 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
Ps 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
We know that men, being in training, were not given dominion over the seas or the wind because the term, earth, is defined as the dry ground.
quote:
Ge 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
The disciples undertood this very well, for when Jesus exercised dominion over the sea and the air, they marveled. "What manner of man is this?"
The answer, of course, was in Jeremiah 31:35: "Thus saith the Lord...which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:" (cited above).
Jesus was a man with ALL things under His feet.
Thus, we see the practical effect of predestination. We have authority to reign as Jesus reigned.
quote:
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
However, between the creation of Adam I and the glorification of Adam II, we see a lot of failure of men- failure to believe God.
quote:
Ro 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Then, Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. God was so pleased by the faith of Abraham, God predestined Abraham's seed, for faith, and He called both, the children of the house of Judah and the children of the house of Israel, to glory under the throne of David.
quote:
Ro 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 ¶ As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Notice how Paul associates the converts from the gentiles with promises made to Israel citing, both, Hosea and Isaiah.
Now, it is upon us to make our calling and election sure.
quote:
2Pe 1:5 ¶ And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
Thus, through faithfulness in doing the will of God, we get to know God, and, through faith, convince our own inner man of His saving power.
In other words, we, through obedience, encourage our own agreement with God in His determination of the who and how of glorification.
quote:
Co 1:9 ¶ For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
12 ¶ Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
God has told us how He will manage this, the predestination of the seed of Abraham.
quote:
Am 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
11 ¶ In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
And, now, I come to a point that was made very early in this thread- the recognition of purpose and vanity in the choices of men.
quote:
Ro 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Ro 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Notice how these two verses contextualize a portion of Romans 8. Creation is subject to vanity because of the unwillingness of men to acknowledge the purpose of God. Once we stop giving ourselves to vanity (maybe, in one way, the love of money expressed when we go into debt making ourselves the servants of the lenders and, thus, removing ourselves from the service of the Lord), we can exercise our senses in the purpose of God. Then, we can come into the glorious liberty of the sons of God, empowerment for which we obtained by adoption when we believed on the only begotten Son of God.
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Forever His
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Hi Bloodbought... thank you for your kind resonse. I think that I understand a bit more about what you are trying to say and so I wanted to clarify your and my positions more clearly as we agree upon some basic points yet differ on others. This morning as I was showering I was thinking about this topic and this "humerous" illustration came to mind. I thought that I would use it, not to poke fun at you or your idea, but that sometime's humor can be helpful in illustrating.
Okay... here we go.
God looks down from heaven and He decrees that it is "time" for Forever His to clean his yard and house, ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif) and have his anual shower , before drawing national attention to this dire situation ![[1zhelp]](graemlins/1zhelp.gif) .
Soooo...
in order to do this God sends money to Forever His fiancee and at God's prompting she buys tickets for a visit. ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif) Upon hearing this Forever His responds to what God ordained and began franticaly cleaning thus fulfilling God's decree. Then... after much hard work and sweating profusely God ordains the bacteria in Forever His armpits to begin working overtime and then just to be sure God ordained the bacteria to really go to work on Forever His sweaty feet. As Forever His wakes up one morning He notices a very strong odor coming from his body and decides... it's time to have a shower. Forever His then decides that it is time to get the front end loader and clean out the bathroom and even brings in the goats and chickens to clean the hard to get corners ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) I even made the bed ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Okay... so again... I'm not trying to poke fun at your idea. I do have a point that I would like to make and that is this. The whole point of serving God is because we "Love" Him and want to do what is right. We are not mere pupets which if I understand you correctly... that is what we would have become.
If that were true then God has made a horrible mistake. I made special effort to clean my home and yard and I even bought flowers and balloons and did other special things.... because I love and Adore my Sweetie. I serve God because I love Him ... not because He worked things out in some way to manipulate me into serving Him. The bible in my opinion is not to be interpreted through the eye of hard cold stone tablets which say ... do this and do not do that. The bible is vibrant and alive and is not a set of rules and regulations designed to promote obedience.... obedience comes "only" as we love someone.
God is so much wiser than than what your idea [ if I understand it correctly] presents... God wants us to serve His simply because... we love Him. He is not interested in mere automatons... does this make sense to anyone ?
May God Bless each of us as we open His word and see Him...
Forever His
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oneinchrist
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When God created Adam and Eve he created them with a moral consciousness(not meaning that they immediately knew between right and wrong or good and evil, but that they would have the ability to distinguish between the two when it was presented to them by God. They understood "thou shalt" and they equally understood that "thou shalt not" had a consequence linked to it. We know this by the fact that they hid themselves after they had done wrong. After the ten commandments were delivered to men mans moral consciousness was exercised even more. Gods word was laying an impression on peoples lives and men were responding in belief or unbelief. Then God promised that He was going to establish a New Covenant for the old did not deal with our sin in a perfect way. Jesus was sent into the world and walked among us. He died and rose again and the word of salvation was spread among us. Our consiousness then being seared by the knowledge of a God who chooses to love us despite our sinfullness. Indeed God has made a way for us to be saved from our sin. Now there is a command to all men to repent and an invitation to all men to accept the Gift of God.
Now do you say that God commands all men everywhere to repent, but only causes a few to follow that command?
And do you say that God causes men to accept The Gift, and He causes the rest to reject It.
Is that your position?
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by Forever His:
Hi Bloodbought it's nice to meet you. I was reading your post and have some questions that I can't seem to understand and was wondering if you might clarify.
You say ...
Man has no free will any more than the earth has a free will to orbit the sun.
In scripture I read verses like ...
Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve;
and
Mathew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
and hundreds more that call people to "repentance" which in reality is making a decision to turn away fron sin and turn toward God.
I am wondering what your thoughts are on these and so many other verses where God calls man to make a decision and to turn away from sin and live.
Eze. 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye.
May God Bless as we open His word and see Him...
Forever His
Hi Forever His, it's nice to meet you too.
Why does scripture command us to choose?
Because we need to know which choice is the right one. God decrees all of our choices, but God does not cause all of our choices. God decrees our bad choices and causes our good choices.
Matthew 16:15-17 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Peter’s answer, or choice came from above, it came from God. All who confess Christ, as saviour and Lord, are objects of the new birth. They are born from above. God’s choice becomes our choice.
When Jesus says, “come,” we can be sure that if, or when we do come that our salvation has been settled in heaven. Bad choices like those in the Garden of Eden are decreed by God and caused by Satan as he distorted the will. God has chosen and decreed to counteract Satans distortion of the will by straightening the will and causing us to accept Christ as our saviour. Either way mans will is not free, he is in subjection to either what Satan has accomplished or what God has accomplished.
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Ya! Bloodbought. I, quite simply, believe both. It is not possible to understand, unless one can understand God. But while I believe in pre 'd', still, every soul has a choice. Help me with the scripture here, for I don't remember at the moment, but Paul said that people know even by nature.
Hi Michael,
I’m not sure if this is the scripture you were thinking of.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
This is a mighty verse of scripture. Everything we look at, we see something of God and the power of God.
quote:
And he said that God was willing that 'all' would come to a saving knowledge. That does not sound like pre damnstination.
If God is willing that all universally would come and be saved and all are not saved, that would make God so weak that He would cease to be God.
The “all” are the sheep only. God is willing that all the sheep are saved. They are predestined for salvation.
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Bloodbought,
I do not take the position that when one of Gods chosen ones disobeys that God has lost control. I think that is taking what I am saying to an extreme. God is always sovereign. No question about it. Where you and I may differ is on how God exercises His sovereign power.
I’m not sure how you see God as sovereign, perhaps you can tell us?
I take the position that God is always sovereign in all things, not just some things.
quote:
What does free-will mean to you? When you say that man does not have free-will, do you mean to say that every move that man makes is under the command of God.
Yes, every move is under the command of God, down to the minutest detail. Therefore, man does not have free will.
Scripture teaches that God creates evil, so even the bad things that happen are under the command of God.
quote:
If I decide to go to Olive Garden tonight for dinner instead of going to Applebees is that because God is in control? If I decide I would rather have a blue moon cone instead of a chocolate sundae is that because God is in control? If I decide that I would rather have another woman other than my wife is that because God is in control? Do you mean to say that man does not have the ability to make any choices on his own? or do you mean to say that man does not have the ability to make certain choices on his own? What is it?
The Providence of God may direct you to go to Olive Garden for dinner instead of going to Applebees and if He did you can be sure that Olive Garden is where He wanted you to go for a purpose known to Himself, and you may discover that it was the best choice, but it wasn’t your choice, it was His choice.
You mentioned another woman.
God can lead you into temptation; He did it with the first Adam and also the second Adam (Jesus). That is why we need to prey “lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Why would we need to pray that prayer if by our free will we could choose not to be tempted? All the events of my life are firmly in the hands of God for His glory.
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Forever His
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As I thought more about this post I had more problems trying to make sense of the idea that people have no free will. I have the ability to choose to post to this thread ... or not... I can choose to treat you kindly and with love ![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif) ... or ignore you
If I am understanding what you are saying [ and perhaps I have misunderstood] yet if it were true it would make God look really bad... like a "master pupeteer" in control of everything... or would He be?
No He wouldn't... here's why...
What would be the point of being in control of all "actions" of the every man woman and child... yet not in control of their hearts ?
My God is a God who loves "me" and seeks to have "intamacy" with "me"... It is then that He begins to have more and more control of my actions... as He wins my heart He wins my actions... as I behold Him more I reflect His likness more...
My whole understanding of the mess that sin has created... and spread through "one man's disobedience" ...[ please ponder those words... one has to have a free will to be disobedient ] is that through our "acceptance" of "one man's perfect and obedient life" that I might have His perfect life acredited to my own.
May God bless us as we study and open His word...
Forever His
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The Beauty of Holiness777
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Hell was never made for men at first it was made for Satan and his angels to keep them until the day of the final judgment. Then they too will be condemned to the lake of fire.
Matthew 25:41 says;
Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.
But because of men sinful and wicked ways and the rejection of Jesus Christ Hell has enlarged itself.
Isaiah 5:14 says;
Therefore hell hath enlarged herself,
And opened her mouth without measure; (no limit)
And their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
This is a very terrible statement to make that God has predestinated some for one place and some for another. It is not valid nor is it according to clear teaching of God's Word.
John 3: 16-17 says;
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him MIGHT be saved.
2 Peter 3:9 says;
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is long-suffering to us-ward, not WILLING that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.
(Repentance is essential failure to repent brings destruction) Matthew 11:20-23
Acts 2:38 says;
Then Peter said to unto them, Repent and be baptized EVERYONE of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of Holy Ghost.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 say;
God our Savior;
Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
God has given men "freewill" to chose Him or the world. He will not force any to be saved because if He did it wouldn't be because we truly love Him, but only because we are scared of Him. God is the God of Love He loved us so much He gave up His best His Son Jesus Christ. To saved us from a life of torment and hell.
But the choice to serve Him is ours and once we chose Him repent and be baptize in the name of Jesus Christ, we become part of His Holy family. Our will must become His Will we are to be transform with the mind of Christ not more conformed to this world.
When God gave us the "Gift of Salvation" He foreknew ahead of time that many would accept Salvation and many would reject it.
Nevertheless, He is such a just, loving and compassionate God He gave us ALL "freewill" to make that choice.
Every day God is calling people to Salvation "Repent and be saved". Every sunday many are sitting in Church listening to His Word (His Voice) for He speaks through His Word.
He says in His Word:
The day you hear my voice hardening not your heart. (Hebrews 3:15)
Many have heard it and will hear it but they will not accept it.
That's why many are called but few are chosen, but those He have called and they accepted Salvation He will justify and the just shall live by faith.
Everything will work for God as He predistinated "For those whome He foreknew, He also predistinate". Having chosen us for His own and setting His love upon us and caring for us before we ever existed He decided what would become of His creations; We would be conformed to the image of His Son. (Those who have accepted)
Predestine-decide of ordain one's destiny.
But He has given His creation a freewill choice to decide that destination
Those of us who accept Salvation, serves God and love Him our called according to His purpose is to be like Jesus and destined to be conformed to the image of Christ.
All things work together for our good to make us like Jesus Christ our Savior and of this we are Predistine.
And to God be the Glory!! ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
Peace and Love to All ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--------------------
In God I'am Complete.
I am a "Spiritual Being" living in a physical body.
{Prayer - a force that reaches people and places when we can't}
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Forever His
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quote:
I’m a staunch believer in the doctrine of predestination. What I see is that God set everything up for a purpose. If man is in any way in control nothing has a purpose. What can man purpose for man in eternity when he isn’t God? Nothing. Man has no free will any more than the earth has a free will to orbit the sun. If the earth did have free will to orbit the sun, it would just be doing it’s own thing without a purpose. No, God set the earth in motion and He didn’t just know it would orbit the sun, but He made it do that very thing. God set the earth in motion and stocked it with humans and animals and He has appointed the seasons, cold and heat, seed time and harvest and day and night while the earth remains, all for His own purpose and glory.
Humans are nothing more than lumps of clay in the hands of the potter that He moulds for His purpose, some to honour and some to dishonour. I say again, man has no free will.
Hi Bloodbought it's nice to meet you. I was reading your post and have some questions that I can't seem to understand and was wondering if you might clarify.
You say ...
Man has no free will any more than the earth has a free will to orbit the sun.
In scripture I read verses like ...
Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve;
and
Mathew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
and hundreds more that call people to "repentance" which in reality is making a decision to turn away fron sin and turn toward God.
I am wondering what your thoughts are on these and so many other verses where God calls man to make a decision and to turn away from sin and live.
Eze. 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye.
May God Bless as we open His word and see Him...
Forever His
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Michael Harrison
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Ya! Bloodbought. I, quite simply, believe both. It is not possible to understand, unless one can understand God. But while I believe in pre 'd', still, every soul has a choice. Help me with the scripture here, for I don't remember at the moment, but Paul said that people know even by nature. And he said that God was willing that 'all' would come to a saving knowledge. That does not sound like pre damnstination.
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oneinchrist
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Hi Bloodbought,
I do not take the position that when one of Gods chosen ones disobeys that God has lost control. I think that is taking what I am saying to an extreme. God is always sovereign. No question about it. Where you and I may differ is on how God exercises His sovereign power.
What does free-will mean to you? When you say that man does not have free-will, do you mean to say that every move that man makes is under the command of God......for example: If I decide to go to Olive Garden tonight for dinner instead of going to Applebees is that because God is in control? If I decide I would rather have a blue moon cone instead of a chocolate sundae is that because God is in control? If I decide that I would rather have another woman other than my wife is that because God is in control? Do you mean to say that man does not have the ability to make any choices on his own? or do you mean to say that man does not have the ability to make certain choices on his own? What is it?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
hello, bloodbought, hope all is well with you in Ireland.
Very well thanks.
quote:
Earth is an inanimate object, or at least is not configured to have a relationship with God while humans are configured to have a relationship with God.
If the earth has no relationship with God, then how come it has responded to Gods commands in the past? Remember the storm on the Sea of Galilee? Remember the earth stood still?
quote:
If man had no free will on earth, man would not be able to decide whether to remain a sinner or to become a saved sinner. I presume you choose Him at some point…?
No, He choose me.
quote:
You said,
So after the sin in the garden, Adam and Eve were making their own choices. They were no longer interested to listen or hear from God after their fall, which means they were making their own choices.
Yes, and what was their choice? “Death.”
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Everyone ever since is dead and anything dead isn’t capable of making a choice.
quote:
Genesis 3
9 And the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, Where are you?
10 And he {Adam} said, I heard Your voice in the garden and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.
He hid himself.
Why did he hide himself? Well, you have supplied us with the answer, Gen 3:10 And he {Adam} said, I heard Your voice in the garden and I was afraid because I was naked;
Now the question is, did God have a purpose in Adam’s fall or was He caught out?
In other words, was it Gods will for Adam to fall, or did Adam fall by his own will?
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Bloodbought,
Its nice to see you back again.
Thank you.
quote:
You sound like you are very confident in what you are preaching. I am assuming the confidence comes as a result of Gods hand in your life. Would you mind sharing with us how Jesus has changed your life?
Yes, God has done a lot for me.
He has pardoned all my sins and set me on the straight and narrow way to eternal life. I find myself doing things that I didn’t think I would be doing and going places that I didn’t think I would be going, I even find myself saying things I didn’t think I would say. Is that God or is it I? I do know that God is all-powerful, and can do as He pleases, so why should He depend on what He has made from clay.
quote:
If God actively controls every little jot and tittle , how then would it be possible for one of His chosen ones to ever be disobedient?
You seem to take the position that when one of His chosen ones is disobedient that God has lost control. Is it possible for an all-powerful God to lose control?
Are events that are taking place on earth, vanity in Gods eyes, or does God have a purpose in all events that take place, and if so, what He has decreed will He not perform?
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oneinchrist
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If God actively controls every little jot and tittle , how then would it be possible for one of His chosen ones to ever be disobedient?
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Eden
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hello, bloodbought, hope all is well with you in Ireland. You wrote quote:
I’m a staunch believer in the doctrine of predestination. What I see is that God set everything up for a purpose. If man is in any way in control nothing has a purpose. What can man purpose for man in eternity when he isn’t God? Nothing. Man has no free will any more than the earth has a free will to orbit the sun.
Earth is an inanimate object, or at least is not configured to have a relationship with God while humans are configured to have a relationship with God.
Humans have completely different internal instruments inside than the earth.
I think that humans have partial free will to choose or not to choose.
It can be described in terms of humans have a computer inside which has a certain amount available computer space on it. If this internal computer space is already occupied with other stuff, then just so much free space is avaliable on our internal computers to “make choices" with.
In most humans, part of their internal computer space is already being used by dealing with, or trying to play out (run) the computer “stuff” dealing with the incomplete experiences of our past and our available internal computer space (free will) is therefore reduced by that amount of computer space.
Still more internal computer space is taken up by dealing with our fear of the future, and this also reduces the amount of internal computer space available to us to make choices with.
The computer space that remains, we can make choices with. Even the LORD talks about “choosing”:
Joshua 24:15
And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom you will serve …
This available internal computer space can be even more reduced by our family history:
Was I raised in a loving family or was I raised in an abusive family?
Did my family have a plenty of financial resources or did I come from a poor family? These externally determine how many choices I can make and the quality of the choices that I can make.
But most humans do have at least some internal computer space still available to make choices with. And so God says:
Isaiah 1:17
Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
And the LORD said to Cain:
Genesis 4
5 But to Cain and his offering He (the LORD) did not have respect. And Cain was very angy, and his countenance fell.
6 And the LORD said to Cain, Why are you angry? And why is your countenance fallen?
7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? But if you not do not well, sin lies at the door...
So, to repeat what you wrote, bloodbought: quote:
I’m a staunch believer in the doctrine of predestination. What I see is that God set everything up for a purpose. If man is in any way in control nothing has a purpose.
This statement too I disagree with. Man can have plenty of purpose on earth even if he is in control. And in fact, man is in control of the earth, and this is in fact what the problem is on earth. Man has taken the earth away from God.
The earth belonged to God, but man has taken it from God in the rebellion of the garden of Eden:
Mark 12:7
But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.
God is taking the earth back from man through the second coming of Jesus Christ:
Colossians 1:13
Who has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
So to repeat again what you said, bloodbought: quote:
What I see is that God set everything up for a purpose. If man is in any way in control nothing has a purpose.
Man is a very purposeful being. Right now man even purposes to keep the earth for himself:
Revelation 19:19
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse
and against His army.
Isaiah 34:2
For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He has utterly destroyed them, He has delivered them to the slaughter.
You further said quote:
Man has no free will any more than the earth has a free will to orbit the sun.
Man is a different animal than the earth. quote:
If the earth did have free will to orbit the sun, it would just be doing its own thing without a purpose.
If the sun had free will to orbit the sun, it would purpose to orbit the sun.
The sun does NOT have free will to orbit the sun, but man does have free will on earth. The earth and the sun do not have the instruments that man has. quote:
No, God set the earth in motion and He didn’t just know it would orbit the sun, but He made it do that very thing. God set the earth in motion and stocked it with humans and animals and He has appointed the seasons, cold and heat, seed time and harvest and day and night while the earth remains, all for His own purpose and glory.
okay so far. quote:
Humans are nothing more than lumps of clay in the hands of the potter that He moulds for His purpose, some to honour and some to dishonour. I say again, man has no free will.
If man had no free will on earth, man would not be able to decide whether to remain a sinner or to become a saved sinner. I presume you choose Him at some point…? quote:
I am where I am because circumstances were such that I arrived where I am because of God’s decree to fulfil His purpose. God decrees everything that happens and nothing will resist His decree.[quote]That was originally true before the sin of rebellion of Adam and Eve in the garden against God. And certainly God interpreted it as a rebellion:
Genesis 3
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he also puts forth his hand and take of the tree of life and eat, and live forever,
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him {the man} forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken.
So after the sin in the garden, Adam and Eve were making their own choices. They were no longer interested to listen or hear from God after their fall, which means they were making their own choices.
You further said[quote]Romans 9:17-20 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
True, there is no point in saying “why have you made me thus, because we are the product of our own foolishness”. quote:
The Gospel isn’t “what will you do with Jesus”, but “what will He do with you”? Sobering thought. Those who God has predestined to salvation will be saved by grace through faith by the means He has appointed through the preaching of the word.
Well, yea, and even that is interesting. Some time ago I was fascinated with the idea that the method that God chose to save people or not to save people was by asking Jesus to die for man’s sins and Jesus doing His miracles and Jesus resurrecting from the dead.
And God and Jesus decided that whoever could believe all of that, those would be the ones that God and Jesus would save. Period. Case closed.
Hope you were born into the right family when the time came for you to decide? Talk about being in the right place at the right time...
A corollary question could be: "does God determine what family we will be born into, or is this a result of a multitude of choices since Adam and Eve?"
Genesis 3
9 And the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, Where are you?
10 And he {Adam} said, I heard Your voice in the garden and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.
He hid himself.
with love, Eden
“so help me God”
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi Bloodbought,
Its nice to see you back again. You sound like you are very confident in what you are preaching. I am assuming the confidence comes as a result of Gods hand in your life. Would you mind sharing with us how Jesus has changed your life?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Bloodbought
Advanced Member
Member # 4365
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posted
I’m a staunch believer in the doctrine of predestination. What I see is that God set everything up for a purpose. If man is in any way in control nothing has a purpose. What can man purpose for man in eternity when he isn’t God? Nothing. Man has no free will any more than the earth has a free will to orbit the sun. If the earth did have free will to orbit the sun, it would just be doing it’s own thing without a purpose. No, God set the earth in motion and He didn’t just know it would orbit the sun, but He made it do that very thing. God set the earth in motion and stocked it with humans and animals and He has appointed the seasons, cold and heat, seed time and harvest and day and night while the earth remains, all for His own purpose and glory.
Humans are nothing more than lumps of clay in the hands of the potter that He moulds for His purpose, some to honour and some to dishonour. I say again, man has no free will. I am where I am because circumstances were such that I arrived where I am because of God’s decree to fulfil His purpose. God decrees everything that happens and nothing will resist His decree.
Romans 9:17-20 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
The Gospel isn’t “what will you do with Jesus”, but “what will He do with you”? Sobering thought. Those who God has predestined to salvation will be saved by grace through faith by the means He has appointed through the preaching of the word.
Some may not like the purpose, for which God raises some up as He did with Pharaoh, but God is in total control and His actions can’t be refuted. He does as He pleases.
All glory to His name.
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
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