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Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
I’m a staunch believer in the doctrine of predestination. What I see is that God set everything up for a purpose. If man is in any way in control nothing has a purpose. What can man purpose for man in eternity when he isn’t God? Nothing. Man has no free will any more than the earth has a free will to orbit the sun. If the earth did have free will to orbit the sun, it would just be doing it’s own thing without a purpose. No, God set the earth in motion and He didn’t just know it would orbit the sun, but He made it do that very thing. God set the earth in motion and stocked it with humans and animals and He has appointed the seasons, cold and heat, seed time and harvest and day and night while the earth remains, all for His own purpose and glory.

Humans are nothing more than lumps of clay in the hands of the potter that He moulds for His purpose, some to honour and some to dishonour. I say again, man has no free will. I am where I am because circumstances were such that I arrived where I am because of God’s decree to fulfil His purpose. God decrees everything that happens and nothing will resist His decree.

Romans 9:17-20 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

The Gospel isn’t “what will you do with Jesus”, but “what will He do with you”? Sobering thought. Those who God has predestined to salvation will be saved by grace through faith by the means He has appointed through the preaching of the word.

Some may not like the purpose, for which God raises some up as He did with Pharaoh, but God is in total control and His actions can’t be refuted. He does as He pleases.

All glory to His name.
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi Bloodbought,
Its nice to see you back again. You sound like you are very confident in what you are preaching. I am assuming the confidence comes as a result of Gods hand in your life. Would you mind sharing with us how Jesus has changed your life?

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
hello, bloodbought, hope all is well with you in Ireland. You wrote
quote:
I’m a staunch believer in the doctrine of predestination. What I see is that God set everything up for a purpose. If man is in any way in control nothing has a purpose. What can man purpose for man in eternity when he isn’t God? Nothing. Man has no free will any more than the earth has a free will to orbit the sun.
Earth is an inanimate object, or at least is not configured to have a relationship with God while humans are configured to have a relationship with God.

Humans have completely different internal instruments inside than the earth.

I think that humans have partial free will to choose or not to choose.

It can be described in terms of humans have a computer inside which has a certain amount available computer space on it. If this internal computer space is already occupied with other stuff, then just so much free space is avaliable on our internal computers to “make choices" with.

In most humans, part of their internal computer space is already being used by dealing with, or trying to play out (run) the computer “stuff” dealing with the incomplete experiences of our past and our available internal computer space (free will) is therefore reduced by that amount of computer space.

Still more internal computer space is taken up by dealing with our fear of the future, and this also reduces the amount of internal computer space available to us to make choices with.

The computer space that remains, we can make choices with. Even the LORD talks about “choosing”:

Joshua 24:15
And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom you will serve …

This available internal computer space can be even more reduced by our family history:

Was I raised in a loving family or was I raised in an abusive family?
Did my family have a plenty of financial resources or did I come from a poor family? These externally determine how many choices I can make and the quality of the choices that I can make.

But most humans do have at least some internal computer space still available to make choices with. And so God says:

Isaiah 1:17
Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

And the LORD said to Cain:

Genesis 4
5 But to Cain and his offering He (the LORD) did not have respect. And Cain was very angy, and his countenance fell.

6 And the LORD said to Cain, Why are you angry? And why is your countenance fallen?

7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? But if you not do not well, sin lies at the door...

So, to repeat what you wrote, bloodbought:
quote:
I’m a staunch believer in the doctrine of predestination. What I see is that God set everything up for a purpose. If man is in any way in control nothing has a purpose.
This statement too I disagree with. Man can have plenty of purpose on earth even if he is in control. And in fact, man is in control of the earth, and this is in fact what the problem is on earth. Man has taken the earth away from God.

The earth belonged to God, but man has taken it from God in the rebellion of the garden of Eden:

Mark 12:7
But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.

God is taking the earth back from man through the second coming of Jesus Christ:

Colossians 1:13
Who has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

So to repeat again what you said, bloodbought:
quote:
What I see is that God set everything up for a purpose. If man is in any way in control nothing has a purpose.
Man is a very purposeful being. Right now man even purposes to keep the earth for himself:

Revelation 19:19
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse
and against His army.

Isaiah 34:2
For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He has utterly destroyed them, He has delivered them to the slaughter.

You further said
quote:
Man has no free will any more than the earth has a free will to orbit the sun.
Man is a different animal than the earth.
quote:
If the earth did have free will to orbit the sun, it would just be doing its own thing without a purpose.
If the sun had free will to orbit the sun, it would purpose to orbit the sun.

The sun does NOT have free will to orbit the sun, but man does have free will on earth. The earth and the sun do not have the instruments that man has.
quote:
No, God set the earth in motion and He didn’t just know it would orbit the sun, but He made it do that very thing. God set the earth in motion and stocked it with humans and animals and He has appointed the seasons, cold and heat, seed time and harvest and day and night while the earth remains, all for His own purpose and glory.
okay so far.
quote:
Humans are nothing more than lumps of clay in the hands of the potter that He moulds for His purpose, some to honour and some to dishonour. I say again, man has no free will.
If man had no free will on earth, man would not be able to decide whether to remain a sinner or to become a saved sinner. I presume you choose Him at some point…?
quote:
I am where I am because circumstances were such that I arrived where I am because of God’s decree to fulfil His purpose. God decrees everything that happens and nothing will resist His decree.[quote]That was originally true before the sin of rebellion of Adam and Eve in the garden against God. And certainly God interpreted it as a rebellion:

Genesis 3
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he also puts forth his hand and take of the tree of life and eat, and live forever,

23 Therefore the LORD God sent him {the man} forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken.

So after the sin in the garden, Adam and Eve were making their own choices. They were no longer interested to listen or hear from God after their fall, which means they were making their own choices.

You further said[quote]Romans 9:17-20 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
True, there is no point in saying “why have you made me thus, because we are the product of our own foolishness”.
quote:
The Gospel isn’t “what will you do with Jesus”, but “what will He do with you”? Sobering thought. Those who God has predestined to salvation will be saved by grace through faith by the means He has appointed through the preaching of the word.
Well, yea, and even that is interesting. Some time ago I was fascinated with the idea that the method that God chose to save people or not to save people was by asking Jesus to die for man’s sins and Jesus doing His miracles and Jesus resurrecting from the dead.

And God and Jesus decided that whoever could believe all of that, those would be the ones that God and Jesus would save. Period. Case closed.

Hope you were born into the right family when the time came for you to decide? Talk about being in the right place at the right time...

A corollary question could be: "does God determine what family we will be born into, or is this a result of a multitude of choices since Adam and Eve?"

Genesis 3
9 And the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, Where are you?

10 And he {Adam} said, I heard Your voice in the garden and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.

He hid himself.

with love, Eden
“so help me God”
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
If God actively controls every little jot and tittle , how then would it be possible for one of His chosen ones to ever be disobedient?
 
Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Bloodbought,
Its nice to see you back again.
Thank you.

quote:
You sound like you are very confident in what you are preaching. I am assuming the confidence comes as a result of Gods hand in your life. Would you mind sharing with us how Jesus has changed your life?
Yes, God has done a lot for me.
He has pardoned all my sins and set me on the straight and narrow way to eternal life. I find myself doing things that I didn’t think I would be doing and going places that I didn’t think I would be going, I even find myself saying things I didn’t think I would say. Is that God or is it I? I do know that God is all-powerful, and can do as He pleases, so why should He depend on what He has made from clay.
quote:
If God actively controls every little jot and tittle , how then would it be possible for one of His chosen ones to ever be disobedient?
You seem to take the position that when one of His chosen ones is disobedient that God has lost control. Is it possible for an all-powerful God to lose control?
Are events that are taking place on earth, vanity in Gods eyes, or does God have a purpose in all events that take place, and if so, what He has decreed will He not perform?
 
Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
hello, bloodbought, hope all is well with you in Ireland.
Very well thanks.
quote:
Earth is an inanimate object, or at least is not configured to have a relationship with God while humans are configured to have a relationship with God.
If the earth has no relationship with God, then how come it has responded to Gods commands in the past? Remember the storm on the Sea of Galilee? Remember the earth stood still?
quote:
If man had no free will on earth, man would not be able to decide whether to remain a sinner or to become a saved sinner. I presume you choose Him at some point…?
No, He choose me.

quote:

You said,
So after the sin in the garden, Adam and Eve were making their own choices. They were no longer interested to listen or hear from God after their fall, which means they were making their own choices.
Yes, and what was their choice? “Death.”

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Everyone ever since is dead and anything dead isn’t capable of making a choice.
quote:
Genesis 3
9 And the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, Where are you?

10 And he {Adam} said, I heard Your voice in the garden and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.

He hid himself.
Why did he hide himself? Well, you have supplied us with the answer, Gen 3:10 And he {Adam} said, I heard Your voice in the garden and I was afraid because I was naked;
Now the question is, did God have a purpose in Adam’s fall or was He caught out?
In other words, was it Gods will for Adam to fall, or did Adam fall by his own will?
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi Bloodbought,
I do not take the position that when one of Gods chosen ones disobeys that God has lost control. I think that is taking what I am saying to an extreme. God is always sovereign. No question about it. Where you and I may differ is on how God exercises His sovereign power.

What does free-will mean to you? When you say that man does not have free-will, do you mean to say that every move that man makes is under the command of God......for example: If I decide to go to Olive Garden tonight for dinner instead of going to Applebees is that because God is in control? If I decide I would rather have a blue moon cone instead of a chocolate sundae is that because God is in control? If I decide that I would rather have another woman other than my wife is that because God is in control? Do you mean to say that man does not have the ability to make any choices on his own? or do you mean to say that man does not have the ability to make certain choices on his own? What is it?

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Ya! Bloodbought. I, quite simply, believe both. It is not possible to understand, unless one can understand God. But while I believe in pre 'd', still, every soul has a choice. Help me with the scripture here, for I don't remember at the moment, but Paul said that people know even by nature. And he said that God was willing that 'all' would come to a saving knowledge. That does not sound like pre damnstination.
 
Posted by Forever His (Member # 25) on :
 
quote:
I’m a staunch believer in the doctrine of predestination. What I see is that God set everything up for a purpose. If man is in any way in control nothing has a purpose. What can man purpose for man in eternity when he isn’t God? Nothing. Man has no free will any more than the earth has a free will to orbit the sun. If the earth did have free will to orbit the sun, it would just be doing it’s own thing without a purpose. No, God set the earth in motion and He didn’t just know it would orbit the sun, but He made it do that very thing. God set the earth in motion and stocked it with humans and animals and He has appointed the seasons, cold and heat, seed time and harvest and day and night while the earth remains, all for His own purpose and glory.

Humans are nothing more than lumps of clay in the hands of the potter that He moulds for His purpose, some to honour and some to dishonour. I say again, man has no free will.
Hi Bloodbought it's nice to meet you. I was reading your post and have some questions that I can't seem to understand and was wondering if you might clarify.

You say ...

Man has no free will any more than the earth has a free will to orbit the sun.

In scripture I read verses like ...


Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve;

and

Mathew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.


and hundreds more that call people to "repentance" which in reality is making a decision to turn away fron sin and turn toward God.

I am wondering what your thoughts are on these and so many other verses where God calls man to make a decision and to turn away from sin and live.


Eze. 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye.

May God Bless as we open His word and see Him...

Forever His
 
Posted by The Beauty of Holiness777 (Member # 7380) on :
 
Hell was never made for men at first it was made for Satan and his angels to keep them until the day of the final judgment. Then they too will be condemned to the lake of fire.

Matthew 25:41 says;
Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

But because of men sinful and wicked ways and the rejection of Jesus Christ Hell has enlarged itself.

Isaiah 5:14 says;
Therefore hell hath enlarged herself,
And opened her mouth without measure; (no limit)
And their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.


This is a very terrible statement to make that God has predestinated some for one place and some for another. It is not valid nor is it according to clear teaching of God's Word.

John 3: 16-17 says;
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him MIGHT be saved.

2 Peter 3:9 says;
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is long-suffering to us-ward, not WILLING that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

(Repentance is essential failure to repent brings destruction) Matthew 11:20-23

Acts 2:38 says;
Then Peter said to unto them, Repent and be baptized EVERYONE of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of Holy Ghost.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 say;
God our Savior;

Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


God has given men "freewill" to chose Him or the world. He will not force any to be saved because if He did it wouldn't be because we truly love Him, but only because we are scared of Him. God is the God of Love He loved us so much He gave up His best His Son Jesus Christ. To saved us from a life of torment and hell.

But the choice to serve Him is ours and once we chose Him repent and be baptize in the name of Jesus Christ, we become part of His Holy family. Our will must become His Will we are to be transform with the mind of Christ not more conformed to this world.

When God gave us the "Gift of Salvation" He foreknew ahead of time that many would accept Salvation and many would reject it.
Nevertheless, He is such a just, loving and compassionate God He gave us ALL "freewill" to make that choice.

Every day God is calling people to Salvation "Repent and be saved". Every sunday many are sitting in Church listening to His Word (His Voice) for He speaks through His Word.

He says in His Word:
The day you hear my voice hardening not your heart. (Hebrews 3:15)

Many have heard it and will hear it but they will not accept it.

That's why many are called but few are chosen, but those He have called and they accepted Salvation He will justify and the just shall live by faith.

Everything will work for God as He predistinated "For those whome He foreknew, He also predistinate". Having chosen us for His own and setting His love upon us and caring for us before we ever existed He decided what would become of His creations; We would be conformed to the image of His Son. (Those who have accepted)

Predestine-decide of ordain one's destiny.

But He has given His creation a freewill choice to decide that destination

Those of us who accept Salvation, serves God and love Him our called according to His purpose is to be like Jesus and destined to be conformed to the image of Christ.

All things work together for our good to make us like Jesus Christ our Savior and of this we are Predistine.

And to God be the Glory!! [clap2]

Peace and Love to All [Smile]
 
Posted by Forever His (Member # 25) on :
 
As I thought more about this post I had more problems trying to make sense of the idea that people have no free will. I have the ability to choose to post to this thread [Big Grin] ... or not... I can choose to treat you kindly and with love [Kiss] ... or ignore you [Big Grin]

If I am understanding what you are saying [ and perhaps I have misunderstood] yet if it were true it would make God look really bad... like a "master pupeteer" in control of everything... or would He be?

No He wouldn't... here's why...

What would be the point of being in control of all "actions" of the every man woman and child... yet not in control of their hearts ?

My God is a God who loves "me" and seeks to have "intamacy" with "me"... It is then that He begins to have more and more control of my actions... as He wins my heart He wins my actions... as I behold Him more I reflect His likness more...

My whole understanding of the mess that sin has created... and spread through "one man's disobedience" ...[ please ponder those words... one has to have a free will to be disobedient ] is that through our "acceptance" of "one man's perfect and obedient life" that I might have His perfect life acredited to my own.

May God bless us as we study and open His word...

Forever His
 
Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Bloodbought,
I do not take the position that when one of Gods chosen ones disobeys that God has lost control. I think that is taking what I am saying to an extreme. God is always sovereign. No question about it. Where you and I may differ is on how God exercises His sovereign power.
I’m not sure how you see God as sovereign, perhaps you can tell us?
I take the position that God is always sovereign in all things, not just some things.
quote:
What does free-will mean to you? When you say that man does not have free-will, do you mean to say that every move that man makes is under the command of God.
Yes, every move is under the command of God, down to the minutest detail. Therefore, man does not have free will.

Scripture teaches that God creates evil, so even the bad things that happen are under the command of God.
quote:
If I decide to go to Olive Garden tonight for dinner instead of going to Applebees is that because God is in control? If I decide I would rather have a blue moon cone instead of a chocolate sundae is that because God is in control? If I decide that I would rather have another woman other than my wife is that because God is in control? Do you mean to say that man does not have the ability to make any choices on his own? or do you mean to say that man does not have the ability to make certain choices on his own? What is it?
The Providence of God may direct you to go to Olive Garden for dinner instead of going to Applebees and if He did you can be sure that Olive Garden is where He wanted you to go for a purpose known to Himself, and you may discover that it was the best choice, but it wasn’t your choice, it was His choice.

You mentioned another woman.
God can lead you into temptation; He did it with the first Adam and also the second Adam (Jesus). That is why we need to prey “lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Why would we need to pray that prayer if by our free will we could choose not to be tempted? All the events of my life are firmly in the hands of God for His glory.
 
Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Ya! Bloodbought. I, quite simply, believe both. It is not possible to understand, unless one can understand God. But while I believe in pre 'd', still, every soul has a choice. Help me with the scripture here, for I don't remember at the moment, but Paul said that people know even by nature.
Hi Michael,
I’m not sure if this is the scripture you were thinking of.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

This is a mighty verse of scripture. Everything we look at, we see something of God and the power of God.

quote:
And he said that God was willing that 'all' would come to a saving knowledge. That does not sound like pre damnstination.
If God is willing that all universally would come and be saved and all are not saved, that would make God so weak that He would cease to be God.

The “all” are the sheep only. God is willing that all the sheep are saved. They are predestined for salvation.
 
Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Forever His:
Hi Bloodbought it's nice to meet you. I was reading your post and have some questions that I can't seem to understand and was wondering if you might clarify.

You say ...

Man has no free will any more than the earth has a free will to orbit the sun.

In scripture I read verses like ...


Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve;

and

Mathew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.


and hundreds more that call people to "repentance" which in reality is making a decision to turn away fron sin and turn toward God.

I am wondering what your thoughts are on these and so many other verses where God calls man to make a decision and to turn away from sin and live.


Eze. 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye.

May God Bless as we open His word and see Him...

Forever His
Hi Forever His, it's nice to meet you too.

Why does scripture command us to choose?
Because we need to know which choice is the right one. God decrees all of our choices, but God does not cause all of our choices. God decrees our bad choices and causes our good choices.

Matthew 16:15-17 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Peter’s answer, or choice came from above, it came from God. All who confess Christ, as saviour and Lord, are objects of the new birth. They are born from above. God’s choice becomes our choice.

When Jesus says, “come,” we can be sure that if, or when we do come that our salvation has been settled in heaven. Bad choices like those in the Garden of Eden are decreed by God and caused by Satan as he distorted the will. God has chosen and decreed to counteract Satans distortion of the will by straightening the will and causing us to accept Christ as our saviour. Either way mans will is not free, he is in subjection to either what Satan has accomplished or what God has accomplished.
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
When God created Adam and Eve he created them with a moral consciousness(not meaning that they immediately knew between right and wrong or good and evil, but that they would have the ability to distinguish between the two when it was presented to them by God. They understood "thou shalt" and they equally understood that "thou shalt not" had a consequence linked to it. We know this by the fact that they hid themselves after they had done wrong. After the ten commandments were delivered to men mans moral consciousness was exercised even more. Gods word was laying an impression on peoples lives and men were responding in belief or unbelief. Then God promised that He was going to establish a New Covenant for the old did not deal with our sin in a perfect way. Jesus was sent into the world and walked among us. He died and rose again and the word of salvation was spread among us. Our consiousness then being seared by the knowledge of a God who chooses to love us despite our sinfullness. Indeed God has made a way for us to be saved from our sin. Now there is a command to all men to repent and an invitation to all men to accept the Gift of God.

Now do you say that God commands all men everywhere to repent, but only causes a few to follow that command?
And do you say that God causes men to accept The Gift, and He causes the rest to reject It.

Is that your position?

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by Forever His (Member # 25) on :
 
Hi Bloodbought... thank you for your kind resonse. I think that I understand a bit more about what you are trying to say and so I wanted to clarify your and my positions more clearly as we agree upon some basic points yet differ on others. This morning as I was showering I was thinking about this topic and this "humerous" illustration came to mind. I thought that I would use it, not to poke fun at you or your idea, but that sometime's humor can be helpful in illustrating.

Okay... here we go.

God looks down from heaven and He decrees that it is "time" for Forever His to clean his yard and house, [happyhappy] and have his anual shower , before drawing national attention to this dire situation [1zhelp] .

Soooo...

in order to do this God sends money to Forever His fiancee and at God's prompting she buys tickets for a visit. [thumbsup2] Upon hearing this Forever His responds to what God ordained and began franticaly cleaning thus fulfilling God's decree. Then... after much hard work and sweating profusely God ordains the bacteria in Forever His armpits to begin working overtime and then just to be sure God ordained the bacteria to really go to work on Forever His sweaty feet. As Forever His wakes up one morning He notices a very strong odor coming from his body and decides... it's time to have a shower. Forever His then decides that it is time to get the front end loader and clean out the bathroom and even brings in the goats and chickens to clean the hard to get corners [Big Grin] I even made the bed [Wink]


Okay... so again... I'm not trying to poke fun at your idea. I do have a point that I would like to make and that is this. The whole point of serving God is because we "Love" Him and want to do what is right. We are not mere pupets which if I understand you correctly... that is what we would have become.

If that were true then God has made a horrible mistake. I made special effort to clean my home and yard and I even bought flowers and balloons and did other special things.... because I love and Adore my Sweetie. I serve God because I love Him ... not because He worked things out in some way to manipulate me into serving Him. The bible in my opinion is not to be interpreted through the eye of hard cold stone tablets which say ... do this and do not do that. The bible is vibrant and alive and is not a set of rules and regulations designed to promote obedience.... obedience comes "only" as we love someone.

God is so much wiser than than what your idea [ if I understand it correctly] presents... God wants us to serve His simply because... we love Him. He is not interested in mere automatons... does this make sense to anyone ?

May God Bless each of us as we open His word and see Him...

Forever His
 
Posted by scythewieldor (Member # 6830) on :
 
Dear Believers,
One of the things we must do to understand the term, predestination, is to lift it from the "buzz-line-theological" and set it in the "scripture-practical". (The way you know a thinker is how readily he is able to coin words. Just kiddin'.)
First, deal with this thing about the sun and earth.
I would like you to notice how completely we have bought into naturalism which denies the existence of angels. (That is the exact opposite of the old problem- the worship of angels.) How inanumate are the hosts of heaven?
quote:
Ge 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
The sun and the moon rule the day and the night.
quote:
Isa 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
The sun can be confounded. The moon can be ashamed.
quote:
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Morning stars sing.
quote:
Jer 31:35 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
What would ordinances have to with inanimate heavenly entities?
When we pray, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven", and we find out that things in heaven are run by ordinances just as things on earth are, maybe there are things concerning the heavenly hosts that we do not understand.
What if the heavenly objects had been assigned angelic hosts the resposibility of which was to make the objects behave according to God's ordinances? We, really, have NOT seen deeply enough into those things to make strong assertions.
quote:
Co 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
Next point:
When God made Adam, Adam and his seed were predestined for glory- they were made in the image of God, and they were given dominion "over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth".
Mankind was being trained in faith within the constraints of the elements/rudiments of their kosmos. (For us who are in Christ, all things are become new.)
quote:
Ga 4:1 ¶ Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Ga 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

Ps 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
We know that men, being in training, were not given dominion over the seas or the wind because the term, earth, is defined as the dry ground.
quote:
Ge 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
The disciples undertood this very well, for when Jesus exercised dominion over the sea and the air, they marveled. "What manner of man is this?"
The answer, of course, was in Jeremiah 31:35: "Thus saith the Lord...which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:" (cited above).
Jesus was a man with ALL things under His feet.
Thus, we see the practical effect of predestination. We have authority to reign as Jesus reigned.
quote:
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
However, between the creation of Adam I and the glorification of Adam II, we see a lot of failure of men- failure to believe God.
quote:
Ro 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Then, Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. God was so pleased by the faith of Abraham, God predestined Abraham's seed, for faith, and He called both, the children of the house of Judah and the children of the house of Israel, to glory under the throne of David.
quote:
Ro 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 ¶ As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Notice how Paul associates the converts from the gentiles with promises made to Israel citing, both, Hosea and Isaiah.
Now, it is upon us to make our calling and election sure.
quote:
2Pe 1:5 ¶ And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
Thus, through faithfulness in doing the will of God, we get to know God, and, through faith, convince our own inner man of His saving power.
In other words, we, through obedience, encourage our own agreement with God in His determination of the who and how of glorification.
quote:
Co 1:9 ¶ For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
12 ¶ Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
God has told us how He will manage this, the predestination of the seed of Abraham.
quote:
Am 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
11 ¶ In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
And, now, I come to a point that was made very early in this thread- the recognition of purpose and vanity in the choices of men.
quote:
Ro 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Ro 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Notice how these two verses contextualize a portion of Romans 8. Creation is subject to vanity because of the unwillingness of men to acknowledge the purpose of God. Once we stop giving ourselves to vanity (maybe, in one way, the love of money expressed when we go into debt making ourselves the servants of the lenders and, thus, removing ourselves from the service of the Lord), we can exercise our senses in the purpose of God. Then, we can come into the glorious liberty of the sons of God, empowerment for which we obtained by adoption when we believed on the only begotten Son of God.
 
Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
When God created Adam and Eve he created them with a moral consciousness(not meaning that they immediately knew between right and wrong or good and evil, but that they would have the ability to distinguish between the two when it was presented to them by God. They understood "thou shalt" and they equally understood that "thou shalt not" had a consequence linked to it. We know this by the fact that they hid themselves after they had done wrong. After the ten commandments were delivered to men mans moral consciousness was exercised even more. Gods word was laying an impression on peoples lives and men were responding in belief or unbelief. Then God promised that He was going to establish a New Covenant for the old did not deal with our sin in a perfect way. Jesus was sent into the world and walked among us. He died and rose again and the word of salvation was spread among us. Our consiousness then being seared by the knowledge of a God who chooses to love us despite our sinfullness. Indeed God has made a way for us to be saved from our sin. Now there is a command to all men to repent and an invitation to all men to accept the Gift of God.

Now do you say that God commands all men everywhere to repent, but only causes a few to follow that command?
Psalm 65:4 4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.
quote:
And do you say that God causes men to accept The Gift, and He causes the rest to reject It.

Is that your position?
Malachi 1:2-3 2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, 3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Proverbs 16:4 4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi again Bloodbought,
Lets say that I come to you and I ask you "What must I do to be saved?" What would you tell me?

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
quote:
El Bloodbought:
quote:
Yes, every move is under the command of God, down to the minutest detail. Therefore, man does not have free will.
I am exceedingly glad to see that you believe it. However let me take issue with that Bloodbought. I believe that God is absolute! That HE is God means that HE can create at will. That HE is Lord means that HE is over everything. I believe that HE is in control of everything, animate, and inanimate, and the affairs of men also. Our surrender it is our blessing. That said, it does not mean that we do not have free will. We most certainly do. Free will is the reason why we ‘sin’. (Uh-oh!) When HE is in control of everything is when we abide in Him, and rise out of sin. When HE is not is when we override HIS control by exercising our will.

And surrender of our will, of course, means that is when we are ’under the Cross’. That most clearly means that ‘not’ to surrender our will means that we do not abide in Him. We are not under the Cross. In this case HE is nevertheless still in control, however HE is so, in spite of us.
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
quote:
MoreForever...
quote:
Okay... so again... I'm not trying to poke fun at your idea. I do have a point that I would like to make and that is this. The whole point of serving God is because we "Love" Him and want to do what is right. We are not mere pupets which if I understand you correctly... that is what we would have become.
If we want to 'do' what is right, we will surrender to the belief that HE is in control. It is the most personal trust that we can have. Puppets however do not have free will. We do. We can surrender, or not. But to be as a puppet is to 'trust' God to the infinite degree. For who cares better for us than HE?


Another scriptural way to say this, and the most profound, is:
 
Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi again Bloodbought,
Lets say that I come to you and I ask you "What must I do to be saved?" What would you tell me?

With love in Christ, Daniel
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house Acts 16:31.
 
Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Forever His:

Okay... so again... I'm not trying to poke fun at your idea. I do have a point that I would like to make and that is this. The whole point of serving God is because we "Love" Him and want to do what is right. We are not mere pupets which if I understand you correctly... that is what we would have become.
You used the word “puppets,” that’s your idea not mine. I prefer the term “divine appointments.”

Job 23:14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.

Its good to love.

NAS 1 Corinthians 13:1-13 1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Then we read.
KJV 1 John 4:16-17 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love ; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

“as he is, so are we in this world.” What does that mean to you?
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi again Bloodbought,
So you tell me that I need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and then I ask you "What does it mean to believe on the Lord Jesus?" What do you tell me then?


With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Beauty of Holiness777:

This is a very terrible statement to make that God has predestinated some for one place and some for another. It is not valid nor is it according to clear teaching of God's Word.
Do you believe God is sovereign in all things, or is God depending on man?

The bottom line is that God has decreed both good and evil and whatever God has decreed will most definitely come to pass. You may not feel comfortable with this because you think this is saying that God can do evil, but bear with me while I try to explain.

God is in control of all things, not just some things, ALL things. After all He made all things for His own glory. He is in control of all the affairs of men. He doesn’t force men against their will, but makes them willing through circumstances to perform His will. He doesn’t just create the end product without creating the means to that end. For example, if He has decreed a field of wheat, He has also decreed that a farmer will be raised up and moulded with the will and the skill to plough and sow a field of wheat. In the same way, if He has decreed for someone to be saved, He has also decreed that they hear the gospel and the word will germinate and take root in their heart. Mark 4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

The same principals apply to evil, but God never causes evil. Satan causes evil, but Satan is under Gods control as in the case of Job when he wasn’t allowed to take Jobs life. When God decreed for all the evil to befall Job, it was more a test of God than of Job.
It was as if God said, come on now Satan, consider my servant Job, have a go at him, but you are bard from taking his life. When God give Job life, He also gave him eternal life and Satan couldn’t take it from him. God turns evil round for good for His own Glory.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

God has a purpose for evil and He has a purpose for good to bring all things into line with His will and purpose and nothing will thwart His decree.
 
Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi again Bloodbought,
So you tell me that I need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and then I ask you "What does it mean to believe on the Lord Jesus?" What do you tell me then?


With love in Christ, Daniel
I see In your profile at the question,
Have you placed your faith in Jesus Christ?: You said Yes.

So I won’t preach to the converted, but if you want to know if you have been predestined for heaven consider the following.

Acts 8:35-38 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Philip is a picture of the work of the Holy Spirit, teaching the eunuch the meaning of the scripture he was reading. In the earlier verses, we see how the Spirit had Philip directed to the eunuch at just the right time. The eunuch was predestined for salvation and ultimately heaven.
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi again Bloodbought,
Lets pretend that I am unconverted. Lets pretend that I am an unbeliever for a moment. Please dont worry about what my profile says. I am asking you again what does it mean to believe on the Lord Jesus? I need for you to describe what it means so I can understand it better. I am an unconverted man who has heard of Jesus but knows very little about Him. I also have heard of heaven and hell and the whole thought of there being a hell scares me.

Now what would you tell me?..... in your own words please.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi again Bloodbought,
Lets pretend that I am unconverted. Lets pretend that I am an unbeliever for a moment. Please dont worry about what my profile says. I am asking you again what does it mean to believe on the Lord Jesus? I need for you to describe what it means so I can understand it better. I am an unconverted man who has heard of Jesus but knows very little about Him. I also have heard of heaven and hell and the whole thought of there being a hell scares me.

Now what would you tell me?..... in your own words please.

With love in Christ, Daniel
No, you can’t pretend. This is no game. If someone comes to me for real I’ll give him or her the truth with the help of the Holy Spirit.

The reality is that I don’t even know what the Holy Spirit would direct me to say even in a real situation, because every situation is different, so it’s futile to try to use my words in a pretend situation. Sorry.
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Puppet? This term comes up once and a while. What is wrong with it? Fear! For some reason people fear the notion of abandoning self to His control. But what is control? It is being 'led' by His Spirit. And being led is, if carried to its conclusion, 'being moved by Him'. That is what it is to be led. So the term 'puppet' is kind of wooden, but it sort'of illustrates what it is to be moved by Him.

And all of your trials are arranged by Him. And where we depart from the puppet notion is in the fact that we have 'free will', and can respond according to the flesh, or we can yield to the Spirit. In other words, we can tie His hands in unbelief, or unwillingness, or minister Him by moving with Him and by Him.

Of course this means that what is happening is that we are letting the 'sap' flow through the vine (or branch). The final result may not be apparent, but whenever His will is followed, we can be sure that HE is glorified.

So, HE is in control with our submission; or HE is in control in spite of us. Different fruit is borne depending.... But His word will not 'return to Him void'.
 
Posted by The Beauty of Holiness777 (Member # 7380) on :
 
[QUOTE] Originally posted by OneinChrist;
Hi again Bloodbough, Let's say I come to you and ask you "What must I do to be saved? What would you tell me?


Beleive on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. (Acts 16:31)

We are supposed to tell them all of God's Word on what they must do to be saved.

Acts 2:38
Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins as well as Acts 16:31.
 
Posted by The Beauty of Holiness777 (Member # 7380) on :
 
quote:
Bloodbought wrote:
Philip is a picture of the work of the Holy Spirit teaching the eunuch the meaning of the scripture he was reading. In the earlier verses we see how the Spirit had Philip directed to the eunuch at just the right time. The eunuch was predestined for salvation and ultimately heaven.
So if that is the case then all men whether they chose Salvation or not is predestined to have freewill to go to heaven if they accept Salvation.
Because all of us who are saved today it was at a certain point of time that the Word of God was presented and explained to us and we understood it and accepted it.

All of us have had and will have a word sent to us through God's Word calling us to Repentance and Salvation. God does ordain the means, the time and the circumstance for All man to have a chance to be saved. Not saying All will be saved but God is Just and Righteous.

No man will ever stand before God and say I never heard your Word I never heard of Jesus Christ nor about being baptize for the remission of sins. His Word will be taught and heard in all the four corners of the earth. Whether man accept or reject it's up to them.

Even in the time of "The Great Tribulation" God will still be giving men and women a chance to be saved.


quote:
If God is willing that All universally would come and be saved and All are not saved, that would make God so weak He would cease to be God. The All is the sheep only. God is willing that all the sheep are saved.
They are predestined for Salvation.
GOD WILL NEVER BE WEAK OR CEASE TO BE GOD! WHETHER THERE BE THREE OF FOUR SAVED GOD WILL ALWAYS BE MIGHTY AND BE THE TRUE AND LIVING GOD!

Yes! It is God's Will that All be saved that is definitely scripture.

But let's take it farther down in His Word:

John 3:16-17 says;
God gave His only begotten Son that "WHOSOEVER" believeth in Him shall have everlasting life.

WHOSOEVER is not All this sounds like a individual acceptance to me in fact I know it is.
Meaning that All will not believe, but the one that does has God's promise.

17. For God sent not His Son into the world to
condemn the world; but that the world through
Him MIGHT BE SAVE.

God's Word is never saying that All men will be saved. But He is so merciful, compassionate, loving and just He loves His creations enough to give them a chance to be saved.

If not it's not God's doing but men!
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Hi, Bloodbought, Eden had written:
quote:
Earth is an inanimate object, or at least is not configured to have a relationship with God while humans are configured to have a relationship with God.
You replied:
quote:
If the earth has no relationship with God, then how come it has responded to God's commands in the past? Remember the storm on the Sea of Galilee? Remember the earth stood still?
Okay, fair enough and good one; I agree. But the earth IS a different instrument than man. Eden also wrote
quote:
If man had no free will on earth, man would not be able to decide whether to remain a sinner or to become a saved sinner. I presume you chose Him at some point…?
You answered:
quote:
No, He chose me.

Eden here: True, Jesus said, "you have not chosen Me, I have chosen you." Yet did it not feel like you chose Him when you chose Him? So you are saying that God gave me the thought and ability to accept the gospel? Could be. Eden also said[quote]So after the sin in the garden, Adam and Eve were making their own choices. They were no longer interested to listen or hear from God after their fall, which means they were making their own choices.
You answered
quote:
Yes, and what was their choice? “Death.”

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Everyone ever since is dead and anything dead isn’t capable of making a choice.
I'm not sure about this one. I think Adam and Eve could still make cboices, only their choices, like Lucifer's, were now without input from God. Indeed, from that point God wanted to show Adam and Eve what would happen to them and to the earth if they were "going to make their own choices without God's input".

And today we see the result of their choices. Or are you saying that God created today's circumstances.

Now let me be clear abou this: I do think that God can and does interfere with man's created circumsances, according to HIS plans and purposes while Adam and Eve are "still doing their thing".

Except that, since the first coming of Jesus, Christians have been saved and are hopefully listening to the Holy Spirit again for their choices and are hopefully also reading the Word of God to "improve their choices".

Eden also said
quote:
Genesis 3
9 And the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, Where are you?

10 And he {Adam} said, I heard Your voice in the garden and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.

He hid himself.
And Bloodbought, you answered
quote:
Why did he hide himself? Well, you have supplied us with the answer,

Gen 3:10 And he {Adam} said, I heard Your voice in the garden and I was afraid because I was naked;

Now the question is, did God have a purpose in Adam’s fall or was He caught out?

In other words, was it God's will for Adam to fall, or did Adam fall by his own will?
Regarding the bolded parts, God gave Adam and Eve a command in the garden of Eden BEFORE their fall, namely, "do NOT eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".

As long as Adam and Eve OBEYED that command by CHOOSING NOT to eat of the tree of knowledge and good and evil, God and Adam and Eve had a great ongoing relationship.

To propose that God MADE Adam and Eve eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil would create a contradictory situation because God had already said, "do NOT eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil". God would never do that.

So in your scenario, Bloodbought, God would have had to MAKE Adam and Eve fall, and there would have been no need for that if Adam and Eve had NOT eaten of the tree of life.

In other words, BEFORE the fall, God and Adam and Eve ALREADY HAD a perfect relationship. Why have Adam and Eve go "thru hell on earth" just to "get back to that perfect relationship"?

Why? Because God wanted to show Adam and Eve and man what would happen to them and to the earth IF Adam and Eve ate of the "tree of knowledge of good and evil"?

It seems rather to me that BECAUSE Adam and Eve, like Lucifer before them, now DECIDED to eat of the tree of knowledge that these dire consequences began to show up.

I.e., they died "spiritually" because their spirit was no longer being "quickened" by the Holy Spirit, now that they were "on their own".

And with the withdrawal of the Holy Sirit, their physical bodies also died quicker, and so we see the ages gradually diminish from Adam to Abraham until the average age of a Bible man is "70" or "80".

Adam and Eve's descendants died "spiritually" but they did NOT die physically except that they did die physically sooner rather than later because the revitaziling Spirit of God was no longer helping them.

But even a live, physical Adam and Eve can make their own choces because they have "eaten from the tree of good and evil".

Unsaved people are operating their own bodies from their soul level, but are not receiving input for their choices from their spirit. But bornagain Christians are again getting help from God and Jesus and from the Holy Spirit and from the written Word of God.

But we are still making choices, only now our choices are way better and are hopefully "what the Spirit is saying to the churches".

Unsaved people are spiritually dead, but they are still very much alive and they will need to be PHYSICALLY SUBDUED when Jesus comes the Second Time.

love, Eden
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Forever His wrote to Bloodbought
quote:
As I thought more about this post I had more problems trying to make sense of the idea that people have no free will. I have the ability to choose to post to this thread ... or not... I can choose to treat you kindly and with love ... or ignore you
And I also do not think that God can on the one hand ask me to "love my neighbor as myself" and then God at the same time proceeds to "do evil" like not treating my neighbor nicely.

Because in Bloodbought's view, God would have to "induce every thought and every act in man", bot the good thoughts and the bad thoughts and good choices and bad choices ("as a man thinks in his heart, so is he") so how can God ask me to "love my neighbor as myself" and then "be mean thru me to my neighbor"? That does not make any sense, does it?

love, Eden
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Hi, Bloodbought, thanks for this Topic. It's an interesting discussion. You wrote
quote:
The “all” are the sheep only. God is willing that all the sheep are saved. They are predestined for salvation.
It seems like you have this "upside down". We are sheep because we are saved. We are not saved because we are sheep.

However, I do think that God limited the people who would be able to "select Jesus" in the world. By choosing the method of "Jesus dying for man's sins and Jesus rising from the dead on the 3rd day", God and Jesus DID LIMIT the amount, or kind, of person who would be able to accept that "method of salvation".

In other words, it is NOT the kind of method of salvation which COULD be UNIVERSALLY BELIEVED by sinful men and women?

Just try to preach to someone: "Do you believe that Jesus rose from the dead"? Eden, don't be silly: NO ONE RISES FROM THE DEAD, and so on.

The method itself did limit WHO could be saved, and in that regard who would be saved WAS in part "pre-destined".

But even those Adamic men and women who WERE able to come to "believe the gospel", even they did HAVE TO MAKE A CHOICE. I remember the day very well. God did help by putting another Christian program on TV for me to see, and maybe the fear of God WAS put on me, but it was I who decided TO FEAR the Lord when I heard what He was "about to do".

To repeat what you wrote, Bloodbought
quote:
The “all” are the sheep only. God is willing that all the sheep are saved. They are predestined for salvation.
We are sheep because we are saved. We are NOT saved because we are sheep.

love, Eden
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
oneinchrist wrote
quote:
If God actively controls every little jot and tittle , how then would it be possible for one of His chosen ones to ever be disobedient?
If God does everything as Bloodbought proposes, then God also has to be disobedient. And that would make God sinful and contradictory to His own other words.

How can God say, "choose you this day Whom you will serve" and then proceed to "make the choice for everyone in Israel in the time of Joshua?

Joshua 24:15
And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom you will serve; whether they be the gods whom your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Adam and Eve may have been without the input from the Spirit of God after their fall, but they are clearly capable of making decisions and choices.

To propose that God INJECTS EVERY THOUGHT into the mind of EVERY MAN, whether SAVED OR NOT, seems to contradict most of the words of the Bible where it is "God revealing Himself to man through Abraham-Isaac-Jacob-Jesus".

Psalm 78:22
Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation:

Psalm 78:32
For all this they sinned still, and believed not for his wondrous works.

John 6:64
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray Him.

Yes, God has foreknowledge and God "saw into the future who would accept the gospel", and likewise Jesus KNEW WHO THEY WERE who "believed not", because Jesus was God as the Son of God and also had this knowledge.

But that does not mean that God MADE them not believe the gospel. God only knew "who believed not", but God did NOT MAKE anyone believe the gospel or not; except God's method of having "the Son of God Jesus from heaven die for our sins and having Jesus rise from the dead on the 3rd day", that method DID determine who would be "able to believe something like that...".

To repeat what you wrote, oneinchrist
quote:
If God actively controls every little jot and tittle, how then would it be possible for one of His chosen ones to ever be disobedient?
God Himself would have to be disobedient if God TOLD US to be disobedient. We are not to tempt God, but God does also not tempt us.

love, Eden
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Good Morning Eden,
If you wouldnt mind, I would like to discuss one part of your above post.......

You said: However I do think that God limited the people who would be able to "select Jesus" in the world. By choosing the method of "Jesus dying for mans sins and Jesus rising from the dead on the 3rd day", God and Jesus DID LIMIT the amount, or kind, of person who would be able to accept that "method of salvation".

Then you said: Just try to preach to someone: Do you believe Jesus rose from the dead? Eden, dont be silly, no one rises from the dead.

Ok, now after reading these above statements there are a few thoughts that come to mind. First of all, I know that we would agree that people understand what it means to rise from the dead. If we are witnessing to an unbeliever and we tell them about Jesus, who He is , and what He has done for us........so long as we speak at their level they do understand what we are talking about.....at least that has been my experience in my witness of the Lord Jesus. So I believe that we can safely rule out that people cannot understand what the gospel is all about when they are told about it. Now the question is can we rule out that they are unable to believe it. Before I give you two contrasting real life examples in my experience I would like to share with you something that I believe gives us a clue into a particular truth.........lets use these verses...........

"What must I do to be saved?"

"Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved"

Take particular note that the emphasis is on where belief is directed, not on whether or not one has the ability to believe something.......Believe( an imperative word which implies an active and continuous belief) on(direction) the Lord Jesus (the object of belief).

1st real life example: My next door neighbor who my wife and I witnessed to and who we tried to help make it through the struggle of a divorce. We shared with him the gospel, and we told him how God has changed our lives and our perspective in life. I made it a point to explain to him that salvation is not just for only certain special people that God picks out giving only them a special ability to believe in Him(that would make salvation only for called leaders then)......I told him that the question that is layed before us is..........will we believe God? not, can we believe God? Time has passed and my next door friend Jason has committed His life to Jesus Christ. One of the happiest days of my life seeing him share his word of faith in Jesus and be baptized.

2nd real life example: I have a co-worker friend who also does side jobs. He has come over to my house to help me on a few things. I have had conversation with him asking him what he believes in. He is not a believer. Fortunate he has been open to converse on some subjects that involve God talk. Evidently one time I hit a nerve and he just outright told me "You believe what you want to believe". In my mind I said "thank you Lord, you have answered a question that I have been wanting answered". Its not that the outsiders (unbelievers) are unable to believe the message, its that they do not want to believe it......perhaps they do not want to come to terms with their sin, perhaps they are happy the way they are not having to be subject to a higher authority.....perhaps, perhaps , perhaps, there could be many reasons.......but the fact is that they are choosing to leave up the wall that has erected between them and God........for we know that our loving God does not erect that wall......He just keeps knocking on it hoping that one day we will answer.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Beauty of Holiness777:
quote:
Bloodbought wrote:
Philip is a picture of the work of the Holy Spirit teaching the eunuch the meaning of the scripture he was reading. In the earlier verses we see how the Spirit had Philip directed to the eunuch at just the right time. The eunuch was predestined for salvation and ultimately heaven.
So if that is the case then all men whether they chose Salvation or not is predestined to have freewill to go to heaven if they accept Salvation.
Because all of us who are saved today it was at a certain point of time that the Word of God was presented and explained to us and we understood it and accepted it.
The eunuch wasn’t just saved at the time Philip preached to him, he was chosen in Christ from before the foundation of the world. When Philip preached to him, he made his calling and election sure. He was never destined to be lost and his encounter with Jesus proved that. Jesus is building His Church and hell will not prevent Him. If it was up to us we wouldn’t make it because the devil would make sure we didn’t make it. We need divine intervention to come to our senses, but only the sheep hear His voice.

quote:
All of us have had and will have a word sent to us through God's Word calling us to Repentance and Salvation. God does ordain the means, the time and the circumstance for All man to have a chance to be saved. Not saying All will be saved but God is Just and Righteous.
Many are called, but few chosen. Those who are chosen will respond, those who are not will be held accountable because they are of their father the devil.
quote:
No man will ever stand before God and say I never heard your Word I never heard of Jesus Christ nor about being baptize for the remission of sins. His Word will be taught and heard in all the four corners of the earth. Whether man accept or reject it's up to them.

Even in the time of "The Great Tribulation" God will still be giving men and women a chance to be saved.
If by chance you mean ability, then yes.

quote:
Yes! It is God's Will that All be saved that is definitely scripture.
If it is God’s will for all to be saved then all will be saved, but that is not the case, not all will be saved. Notice the words “us-ward” in 2 Pet 3:9, these are sheep only. He is not willing that any of His sheep are lost.

2 Peter 3:9 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward , not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi Bloodbought,
I think it needs to be understood that the words "Gods Will" can have more than one meaning depending on the context. This was discovered long ago, and Martin Luther was one of the well known individuals who pointed this out. Even bible dictionaries show the distinction.

Gods will can be referring to the following:
1. Gods effectual working to carry out His plan and purpose. Illustrated in this verse.....
1 Corinthians 1:1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God,.....

or

2. Gods desire for mankind. Illustrated in this verse ......
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
Hi oneinchrist

I do agree that the word is different in the two verses you quote.

1 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the ( will 2307 qe,lhma of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not (willing 1014 bou,lomai that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Then what about this verse where the word for will is the same as the word for will in 1 Corinthians 1:1.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own ( will: 2307 qe,lhma

Or this verse where the word for willing is the same word as the word for willing in 2 Peter 3:9.

Hebrews 6:17 Wherein God, (willing1014 bou,lomai more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Good afternoon Bloodbought,
I see that you agree because you discovered the words to have a different Greek/Hebrew translation. I am glad that you didnt just take my word for it , but went and searched the scriptures.

I do think something can be learned by the different ways that the words "will" and "willing" are used when concerning the will of God.

In Peters passage we discover that it is Gods "desire" that men come to repentance......so Peter gives us a picture of God patiently waiting on our response to His Word of truth. So can we then conclude that Gods "forknowledge" would see ahead of time who would or would not respond favorably, and that those who will respond favorably would be "pre-destined" to be conformed to the image of His Son?

In 1 Corinthians 1:1 we see the will of God being carried out(directly by Jesus on the road to Damascus) in Pauls life as he was a chosen vessel of God to be a light to gentile nations and to suffer many things for truths sake.
Certainly most would agree that Paul was called in a unique and profound way , but it just so happens to be that the norm for most of us today is that faith comes by the hearing of Gods word.....we need to believe without seeing.
Hopefully though we are still living with the earnest expection of the Holy Spirits work in our lives because scripture declares it as a promise to those who will repent and believe on the Lord Jesus.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by The Beauty of Holiness777 (Member # 7380) on :
 
Bloodbought from the way you keep addressing some of your replies you make it sounds like there are some of us that were born saved from the beginning at birth. The one's that are born saved at the time of birth has done no wrong will go to heaven; and there are others who are born not to be saved from the time of their birth who has done no wrong they are doomed for hell. Which I know is not true for all men due to Adam's sin were born in Sin not one of us were born righteous.

No! Jesus died to saved and to give all a chance at Salvation.

Another question comes to mind on "your theory" Bloodbought.

How about the babies who die at birth are some of them predestined for destruction as well? Would a just and righteous God condemned one who never heard His Word or never had a chance to do wrong or right? Never had a chance for repentance to accept Salvation?

Would you say since they died at birth they were predestined for hell?


There are just to many scriptures of truth that makes your theory about Predestination a little off base.

God's Word will not come back void and it's on His Word I stand and boldly say.

Those who are born again with His Spirit are the ones predestinated for Heaven. (For they are His; God said if you have not His Spirit we are none of His.)

Those who are not born again has not His Spirit and they are predestinated for Hell unless they change. The Choice is still theirs.
 
Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
Hi again oneinchrist,

If He was speaking of the sheep only, the Holy Spirit In His wisdom used the right word in 2 Pet 3:9.
I replaced the word willing with the word desiring.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not desiring that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

To use the same word as is used for the word will in1 Corinthians 1:1 the verse would read like this.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not determined that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Well we know He hasn’t determined that any of His sheep will perish, He doesn’t even desire it.
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
quote:
bloodbought sez
quote:
Many are called, but few chosen. Those who are chosen will respond, those who are not will be held accountable because they are of their father the devil.
Depends upon the meaning of chosen.... Chosen could mean from the foundation of the world. However, it could mean that many feel called, and therefore follow; however only a few of them are chosen. This is why we are called to rightly divide the word. But what 'sounds good' to our ear isn't necessarily to be found to be according to the truth. In fact, claiming to be 'chosen' may only be arrogance on the part of someone. So if we are chosen, it may only be boasting to say so, and I don't think it is HIS nature to tell anyone whatsoever that you are. For to be sure, there are some people who are not saved who will go to hell because they didn't make a decision for Christ because they figured if they were chosen, they would! It is strange, and unfortunate for them, and stranger that believers would lack humility before the world.

And.... If they will be held accountable, "because they are of the devil," where is accountability if they were created to be of the devil? Therefore they have no responsibility because they were created that way.
 
Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Beauty of Holiness777:
Bloodbought from the way you keep addressing some of your replies you make it sounds like there are some of us that were born saved from the beginning at birth. The one's that are born saved at the time of birth has done no wrong will go to heaven; and there are others who are born not to be saved from the time of their birth who has done no wrong they are doomed for hell. Which I know is not true for all men due to Adam's sin were born in Sin not one of us were born righteous.
How then do you explain this verse?
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

quote:
Another question comes to mind on "your theory" Bloodbought.

How about the babies who die at birth are some of them predestined for destruction as well? Would a just and righteous God condemned one who never heard His Word or never had a chance to do wrong or right? Never had a chance for repentance to accept Salvation?

Would you say since they died at birth they were predestined for hell?
I don’t know, God knows. Could they repent or believe if as you say they were born in sin?
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi 777,
I think that confidence in things about God/Jesus are necessary(For ex: Jesus is the Son of God) , but on the flip side of the coin confidence in things about God/Jesus can arouse the intellect of man and become unproductive to the point of causing divisions amongst us;

whereas, a real active confidence in God/Jesus that is combined with a heart determined to discover the will of God is what I believe eventually leads to the assurance that comes from the Holy Ghost Himself.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Yep! I am aware of it. And there are others. So maybe, "many are called and few are chosen," means that certain few, such as the prophets and apostles are chosen. In that case, the rest get to choose! But, even those who were chosen, got to choose!

quote:
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

 
Posted by The Beauty of Holiness777 (Member # 7380) on :
 
quote:
OneinChrist
Where as a real active confidence with a heart determined to discover the Will of God is what I believe eventually leads to the assurance that comes from the Holy Ghost Himself.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth that leads, teaches and guides us into all truth. The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth concerning God's Word which holds many mysteries of the kingdom of God.
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Yet many cling to something that they hold to be true, even if it is easily challenged! And everybody makes the claim that the Holy Spirit guided them to the truth whatever view they hold. But did HE guide every diverse one? If it isn't Jesus here, Jesus now, it is not the entire truth. It may approach the truth.
 
Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
[QUOTE] If they will be held accountable, "because they are of the devil," where is accountability if they were created to be of the devil? Therefore they have no responsibility because they were created that way.
The reason they are accountable is because they are of the devil and not of God.
As I said before, “God never causes evil. Satan causes evil, but Satan is under Gods control.” God can decree mans fall without causing it, as we know He did in the Garden of Eden. Satan has mans will bound so that he is unable to please God and unless he is released by a miracle of grace he is held responsible just as Adam was in the Garden of Eden. I know this may not be a popular view, but it is the only view that fits into the whole of scripture in my opinion. If you believe God is sovereign then He isn’t depending on man. Man is depending on God and the mercy of God, but not all receive mercy. I never deserved any mercy, but thank God I received it anyway.

God bless.
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi 777,
I was wondering if you were agreeing with my post or if you were disagreeing with my post. It is too hard to tell. If you disagreed with it would you please clarify how you are using what you have stated to expose my error. I know that being human I am subject to error, so I am always open for correction. I am not easily offended.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by The Beauty of Holiness777 (Member # 7380) on :
 
Hi Daniel
Sorry I didn't state whether I was agreeing or disagreeing.

I was agreeing I might have replied a little different with the words I used but "I was Agreeing." [thumbsup2]
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
quote:
If you believe God is sovereign then He isn’t depending on man.
If you don't believe in man's responsibility....what need is thee for the Gospel?

The system of truth is not one straight line, but two. No man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once.

I am taught in one book to believe that what I sow I shall reap: I am taught in another place, that "it is not of him that willeth nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." I see in one place, God presiding over all in providence; and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions to his own will, in a great measure. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act, that there was no presidence of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to Atheism; and if, on the other hand, I declare that God so overrules all things, as that man is not free enough to be responsible, I am driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism.

That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0207.htm
 
Posted by Forever His (Member # 25) on :
 
The more I ponder this thread the more concerns that I have about how one would view God and His amazing and abundant matchless Love. If the first post is stated correctly [ that men are no more free, than the earth to rotate in it's axis ] then instead of establishing God's sovereignty... it destroys the very foundation upon which it is built.


If God "arbitrarily" subject's His " crowning act of creation" to His wishes and purpose by "controling everything they do" then His sovereignty is very limited and He has no real power other than that of display.

However... when understood correctly God's sovereignty is displayed not by force... or by overwhelming power... but by setting His subject free to "choose" to love Him... or choose not to. The real issue in soverngty is.. is God so powerful that He can draw those who are in sin and rebellion against Him... and win their HEARTS simply by revealing His charachter.

Now "THAT" would be a test to see just how sovergn God really is.

Bloodbought wrote :

I’m a staunch believer in the doctrine of predestination. What I see is that God set everything up for a purpose. If man is in any way in control nothing has a purpose. What can man purpose for man in eternity when he isn’t God? Nothing. Man has no free will any more than the earth has a free will to orbit the sun. If the earth did have free will to orbit the sun, it would just be doing it’s own thing without a purpose. No, God set the earth in motion and He didn’t just know it would orbit the sun, but He made it do that very thing. God set the earth in motion and stocked it with humans and animals and He has appointed the seasons, cold and heat, seed time and harvest and day and night while the earth remains, all for His own purpose and glory.

Humans are nothing more than lumps of clay in the hands of the potter that He moulds for His purpose, some to honour and some to dishonour. I say again, man has no free will.


Now if that is true then God is responsible for every murder, every rape, incest, all of the drugs and results of every sin know to mankind. I believe that many people do not correctly understand the true natre of God's soverngty or the limits that he has put upon this the events that are happeneing right here upon this earth. As a result I have been thinking of starting another trhead to discuss the real issues behind this topic in a thread called " War in heaven " ... I would like those who wish to participate to come and share their thought's there as long as you are not trying to start another war war right here at the cbbs [Kiss]

ps. could someone please show me where the spell check is [Big Grin] Thank you [type]

May God Bless you and yours.

Forever His
 
Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
Hi becauseHElieves,

Thank you for linking us to the prince of preachers, Spurgeon.

I take it that you agree with what he said?

This is what I have been saying all along, that there are two lines.
The first line is that God is on the throne giving the commands and the second line is that the devil has been in communication with man and has him drawn his way. Can anyone show me where man has free will in that? He is going to either obey Gods commands or else he is not, and if not why not? Because his will is bound by things he sees as being more important to him and while he continues in that frame of mind, he WILL not obey the Lord.

Line two is open; man is not willing to obey. Line one is open as well, so the only hope left is line one. Man doesn’t see line one as an option while he sits in his comfort zone, so line one isn’t contacted. Then, what do you think, line one contact him, through the preaching of the word and glory to God he answers line one and to him is revealed great and mighty things that he knew not of. Now line one is hot and line two has gone silent, but isn’t dead. Line one has got through with such authority that the man chooses to convert.

While these two lines of communication are in operation, they are pushing the buttons of mans will, therefore his will is not free. Sometimes when he is on line one, he may enquire, what wilt thou have me to do? He isn’t free to do what he likes of his own free will as many think. No, he is under his commander, God.

God bless.
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
quote:
quote:
I’m a staunch believer in the doctrine of predestination. What I see is that God set everything up for a purpose. If man is in any way in control nothing has a purpose. What can man purpose for man in eternity when he isn’t God? Nothing. Man has no free will any more than the earth has a free will to orbit the sun.
What is free will, but choice? If a man can choose, then he has free will. And, man can 'choose' to be in control. He may not be very much in control, but he can choose it.

quote:
This is what I have been saying all along, that there are two lines.
The first line is that God is on the throne giving the commands and the second line is that the devil has been in communication with man and has him drawn his way. Can anyone show me where man has free will in that? He is going to either obey Gods commands or else he is not, and if not why not? Because his will is bound by things he sees as being more important to him and while he continues in that frame of mind, he WILL not obey the Lord.
And here we see choosing. Man chooses whether he is on line one, or line two. Also, there are multiple choices at play regardless of which line he is on, except, he doesn't exercise his choices if he is on line one. He lets his choices be in the hands of the capable one, because, he 'enters' HIS rest. Then he knows HIS control. (Believe in your heart!)
 
Posted by The Beauty of Holiness777 (Member # 7380) on :
 
quote:
Michael
What is freewill, but choice?
Either way we say it it means the same so what more can we say.


Love and peace to All. [Smile]
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Hello, Forever His, you wrote
quote:
ps. could someone please show me where the spell check is?
I don't think there IS a spellcheck on this bbs (I may be wrong), but if you open up a word processing document and do your post composing in word processing, then you can spellcheck it there and then you paste it into the bbs spot.

love, Eden
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Bloodbought wrote
quote:
This is what I have been saying all along, that there are two lines.

The first line is that God is on the throne giving the commands and the second line is that the devil has been in communication with man and has him drawn his way. Can anyone show me where man has free will in that?
Uhh…the devil exercised his free will when he said “I will go be higher than the LORD and sit in the congregation of the north”, and then the devil also persuaded Eve and Adam to rebel against the LORD and “take the earth for themselves”, in alliance with the devil who in the process became “the prince of this world.”

In the garden, Adam and Eve decided to “go it alone” and “we no longer need God”, as God said, “behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil”, and let me ask you this:

Since God was not helping Adam and Eve think and make good choices, Adam and Eve were now “making their own choices”, and the devil helped them “with their choices” as much as he could by injecting thoughts directly into their soul/mind, since their spirit was no longer being used.

To repeat what you said, Bloodbought:
quote:
This is what I have been saying all along, that there are two lines.

The first line is that God is on the throne giving the commands and the second line is that the devil has been in communication with man and has him drawn his way. Can anyone show me where man has free will in that?
You went on to say
quote:
He is going to either obey Gods commands or else he is not, and if not why not? Because his will is bound by things he sees as being more important to him and while he continues in that frame of mind, he WILL not obey the Lord.[./quote]He may not obey the Lord now that he is “operating his own body by himself, with his own mind and senses”, but to do that, Adam’s descendants have to make “lots of choices” every day. Without input from the LORD, life is “even more difficult to figure out” so he has to make “lots of choices”.

Bloodbought, you said above [quote]“Because his will is bound by things he sees as being more important to him…”
His will is NOT BOUND by things he sees as more important to him, HE HIMSELF is more interested in things other than God. Since the fall, Adam and Eve’s will is NOT BOUND, it’s INTERESTED IN OTHER THINGS, but their will is CONSTANTLY exercised in the things that Adam and Eve ARE interested in.

The will is subservient to Adam and Eve. The will is one of the instruments that Adam and Eve possess, and use all the time.

It is not as if their will is BOUND, as you propose, and that therefore Adam and Eve are somehow not making any choices ("not exercising their will")...not at all, Adam and Eve are exercising their will constantly.

love, Eden
 
Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:

Since God was not helping Adam and Eve think and make good choices, Adam and Eve were now “making their own choices”, and the devil helped them “with their choices” as much as he could by injecting thoughts directly into their soul/mind, since their spirit was no longer being used.
If thoughts are being injected into the mind, the will is not free. If drugs are injected into a man, it’s going to affect his will. He may think he is in control, but in reality the drug is controlling his will and causing him to make choices that any right thinking man wouldn’t make. His will becomes a slave to the drug injection.

So to repeat what you said,” the devil helped them “with their choices” as much as he could by injecting thoughts directly into their soul/mind.” I think that is an accurate statement and if that injection has affected all of mankind, which I believe it has, and there is no immune system to cause it to die out, they require an antidote injection from the Lord to recover.

Without the Lord man can do nothing. He can’t choose to have pure thoughts while his will is corrupted, so the Lord must intervene to get him onto the straight and narrow way. So while mans will is influenced by outside sources, it’s not free.
 
Posted by Forever His (Member # 25) on :
 
Thank you Eden. I was surprised when I could not find a spell check here. I will have to do it the way that you sugest. hmmm... suggest ... ahh that looks better [Big Grin]

where is that spell check when you need it anyway [type] [pound]

God Bless you

Forever His

I wanted to add that I thought that your last post was really well written.
 
Posted by Forever His (Member # 25) on :
 
Bloodbought wrote:

If thoughts are being injected into the mind, the will is not free.


Hi again Bloodbought. I have been following this thread with interest. I see very little that we disagree upon except for in one area and that is the "method" in which we serve. If I understand correctly I do not see that you believe that we serve God "ONLY" from the motivation of love and love alone. Is that correct?

I belive that when Jesus said If I be lifted up I will DRAW all unto myself [ ie. through love not force ]


When I looked at what you wrote above I noticed something... My second reading of it brought me to realize that that statement is not true in either scientific or spiritual terms. For example... You can indeed have thought's injected into your mind and NOT follow them... it happens to me every day. I do not always follow my first thought ... I would have been put in jail many years ago if I always did [Wink] [Big Grin]

God might impress our minds with... come unto me all you who labor and I will give your rest for your soul...

Yet satan might say ... don't listen to Him... what you need is to "get away" for a while.

We indeed are in a war with two sides pulling us toward either salvation... or destruction. There are ONLY TWO SIDES to choose from. Yet God gives us the free will to choose... that is why He says "choose life" for why should you die ?

God Bless as we study and see Him more fully

Forever His
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
quote:
If thoughts are being injected into the mind, the will is not free.
Oh brother! [Roll Eyes] The will is not penalized by 'thoughts'. The will chooses to go along with 'thoughts', or not. The will mediates between thoughts, and emotions, both of which are suggestions. It is such that either the mind wins out over the emotions, or one goes with his emotions.
 
Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
Hi everyone. I don’t seem to be getting my point across, but see what you make of this.

Mark 7:20-23 20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

If any of these evil things are injected into the man and they are in his heart, they are going to show up in his actions. So how can his will overcome and cause him to do well, if at the same time the thoughts of his heart has his will is set on doing evil?
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Hello, Bloodbought, RE the "thoughts being injected into the mind/soul by the devil", it's not like a drug that's injected, it's more like "suggestions", "thoughts" that the person can either decide to follow or use, or not. It is still always the Adam and Eve person who does the deciding with their will what to do next, with anything.

All day long, Adam and Eve (as representative of our current race) are making choices; they can minimize their choices if they lay down and don't get up day after day, but the more they get up, the more they have to choose from when to go out the house, where to go first, etc.

If they are Christians, God can counsel them thru the Holy Spirit and thru the Word, but even then the saved person has to choose whether to follow God's moment-to-moment counsel, or not.

And if they are not Christians, then the devil will speak to their soul/will/mind area (assuming that the devil can do that, I'm not entirely sure about that since the devili a spirit), but assuming the devil can do that, then the person can decide to "follow that suggestion", or not.

It is always the person, the soul/personality that has the capacity to make the ultimate decision.

Now of course God does have absolute power of all people in that God can destroy all the people if God chose to do that.

But because God "so loved the world", God has to/wants to keep the people alive for now, and that does limit God in what God can do with man for now since man has this free will to choose whatever he wants to do from moment-to-moment.

The thing is that man is not like a rock and not like a plant and not like a tree, but man is a free-running, loose, self-contained entity which is in fact capable of "taking the earth over from God" and that is in fact what has happened.

The time will come God will take the earth back thru Jesus Christ, but for now, the devil and man is in possession of the earth, and man and the devil are exercising their dominion over the earth and they are making all the decisions to run the earth by themselves, unless they are Christians.

And even if they are Christians, they can still choose or to ignore "what the Spirit says to the church". Man is not a robot; man is a free-running, loose, independent entity that can "do what he wants" (for now, at least).

love, Eden
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Hi, Bloodbought, you wrote
quote:
Hi everyone. I don’t seem to be getting my point across, but see what you make of this.

Mark 7:20-23 20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

If any of these evil things are injected into the man and they are in his heart, they are going to show up in his actions. So how can his will overcome and cause him to do well, if at the same time the thoughts of his heart has his will is set on doing evil?
As I have mentioned in a previous post above, man's will is impinged upon by his family history, by sin, by unlovedness, by poverty, by abuse, and so on. These things may limit man's choices, but even with these limitations, man still does have an enormous capacity to "make decisions with his will".

All it takes to verify that is to look outside and see all the activity in the city; none of it is done by robots but by free-thinking individuals whose will is only "impinged upon" or "somewhat diminished" by the evil ways that man has chosen.

In other words, "Adam and Eve" now do not have the "mind of Christ" but they still have a "very active mind"; the decisions coming out of this mind are not the greatest anymore since there is no input from God (unless they are Christians), but they are still making tons and tons of decisions, every day.

love, Eden
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
quote:
Bbought!
quote:
Hi everyone. I don’t seem to be getting my point across, but see what you make of this.

Mark 7:20-23 20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

If any of these evil things are injected into the man and they are in his heart, they are going to show up in his actions. So how can his will overcome and cause him to do well, if at the same time the thoughts of his heart has his will is set on doing evil?
[Confused]


Why do you 'assume' evil? Evil is the state of the unrepentent HEART. It is what we are saved from. Your position assumes that one is evil of heart, and from there proceeds that which defiles man. If such is your state, you have not repented.
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
If you believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead…. Thou shalt be saved. But where does HE have to be for you to be raised from the dead? (This means, what do you have to believe to be born again?) For you to be made alive, Jesus has to be raised from the dead in your heart. And what does HE save us from? OUR SINS! If we are saved from our sins, we are saved from sinning.

I know. The most popular belief is that we are saved from our sins, as though we can be in them and have our birthday cake too. But salvation is better than that. We are saved from being evil of heart, and performing the things which are convenient to our old nature. We are saved from having to willfully commit sin. For every scripture which we think says otherwise, there are forty which say otherwise. And one single scripture has all the power we need to consider. Take for example:


Sin shall NOT have DOMINION over you. That is so simple that it cannot be missed. Yet it is, automatically, especially when we are young Christians. I know! I am human too. But that it says that it shall not have dominion, means simply that it 'cannot make you' against your will. And if your will is trusting God.....

So if it cannot make us, then we have no excuse. We have no justification for it. But if the heart is not enlightened, then all we can do is fail. But failure is not an option. Yet if we do, we have an advocate. Cool!

But the place beyond failure has to be sought and found. Otherwise our condition is one of failure. So we can look at it like this: Belief overcomes. How many times does scripture speak of overcoming? On the flip, unbelief IS overcome. It is automatic. It is a state, or condition. It misses what the price that Jesus paid, actually does.
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
We all yearn to please Jesus. But we try it by 'doing'. Yet that misses the mark. It will never hit the mark. For we cannot, by doing, accomplish what needs to be accomplished. And it is not what Jesus requires in order for us to be pleasing to Him.

Look at it like this. If we cannot walk on water by wanting to, neither can we please Jesus by wanting to. For it needs to be seen that walking on water is not something we do by trying, but something He enables us to do only. So what we need is the 'enabling'. It can be found.
 
Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
[Confused]

Why do you 'assume' evil? Evil is the state of the unrepentent HEART. It is what we are saved from. Your position assumes that one is evil of heart, and from there proceeds that which defiles man. If such is your state, you have not repented.
Hi Michael,

I’m using evil as the starting point since I have made no headway of approval to much of what I said thus far. How did evil start? It started in the Garden of Eden by the serpent. Man was not and is not evil, if he was, God would have no interest in saving him, but the serpent caused sin in man by deceiving him. That is how the devil operates, by deception and man is no match for his subtlety. Man is helpless, once down he can’t get up; it’s called total depravity installed in his heart by the devil. The scripture you quote is a good one and shows that evil comes from the heart. So these evil desires are injected into the heart and not the mind as was suggested in earlier posts, sorry about that.

Now the point I am trying to make, and I hope you can catch my drift without confusion,and dont say, "Oh brother!" [Smile] is that since man has been deceived and infected by Satan, what good is it going to do him by choosing to obey God? None is the short answer. Since the harm is already done, it doesn’t matter what choices he makes because he has already proved that he is incapable of making the right choice without Divine help. If the Holy Spirit chooses to save him, new words and good words are going to come from his mouth. This in many cases is how we know if his salvation is real. Those who say they have made a choice for Christ and live exhibiting evil desires have not been worked on by the Holy Spirit.
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
quote:
That is how the devil operates, by deception and man is no match for his subtlety. Man is helpless, once down he can’t get up; it’s called total depravity installed in his heart by the devil. The scripture you quote is a good one and shows that evil comes from the heart. So these evil desires are injected into the heart and not the mind as was suggested in earlier posts, sorry about that.
Ok! Well, to the extent that we are a prisioner of total depravity can be debated. Because total depravity abates whenever we 'trust'. For then it gives way to life. Because that is what Jesus gives us. Else it could be said that all that He offers us in our condition of total depravity, is total depravity, and hope at some later date. It is not so. He gives us freedom from total depravity in the now. Therefore we are not limited by a heart which is evil. This does not happen without unconditonal surrender. Face unconditional surrender and discover. (In other words, seek and ye shall find.)
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
quote:
since man has been deceived and infected by Satan, what good is it going to do him by choosing to obey God? None is the short answer. Since the harm is already done, it doesn’t matter what choices he makes because he has already proved that he is incapable of making the right choice without Divine help.
Exceedingly! Divine help is a simple single heartbeat away. And obeying God is not in doing. It is in having. And that is who HE is! That is why we 'believe'. Because we believe unto 'having'. And having translates into manifestation; but not if we do not believe! ! !
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
The question is, is Jesus your life? Or is HE simply someone you live for. Do you get the difference? In one case one lives for Him. In the other case, one lives 'by' Him. One does not by an evil heart, 'live by Him'.
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Bloodbought, men's mind and their will are affected by sin, even to the point where they now HAVE to hear or read the Word of God to get saved and hear from God again (sometimes God performs a sovereign act to save someone).

But even without God, man is a capable creature who is doing his best to run his own life now that he does not have God on his side anymore (unles he is saved). But even sinfilled man can do a lot of damage with his mind and will, just witness the condition of the earth right now.

But when it comes to how to get saved, I think the Lord presents people with opportunities to get saved, and when people do not respond, God moves on for now to the next people:

Hebrews 4:7
Again, He limits a certain day, saying in David, Today, after so long a time; as it is said, Today if you will hear His voice, harden not your hearts.

Some will hear the Word of God and bear fruit, but many humans will not bother to hear, finding it the preaching of the cross nonsense.

But as to their will, they are exercising that will every day; only dead people do not exercise their will anymore.

love, Eden
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
And yes, I do think that the fact that God and Jesus chose their particular plan on how to save people DID PREDESTINATE certain people to be able to believe that plan, and it DID PREDESTINATE others who would never be able to believe such a plan.

In that sense, the very plan becomes determinative.

Let's say for instance that the plan was that whoever liked steak done medium rare and garlic shrimp, only those people would be saved. I would also be saved on that plan, but there are people who don't like shrimp and who have to have their steak well-done.

And since God can look on the sincerety of their heart/mind, God would know who would be really saved, and who not.

The plan had to be SOMETHING, and God and Jesus came up with this AMAZING plan, but evenso, there are many people who simply CANNOT believe this plan.

Acts 17
31 Because He has appointed a day, in which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He has ordained; whereof He has given assurance to all men, in that He has raised Him from the dead.

32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: but others said, We will hear you again of this matter.

The plan itself predetermined everything. For me it was a great plan, but not for everyone:

Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate and narrow is the way, which leads to life, and few there be that find it.

Now, people may not be able to believe in the resurrection, Bloodbought, but they are definitely believing in a lot of other stuff, and are acting on those things. They are still very busy, being, doing, choosing, promoting, arguing, laughing, and whatever else they do in life on earth.

love, Eden
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi Eden,
How then could it be fair to make the unbelievers accountable for their unbelief? I believe it is scriptural to say that unbelief is sin.....for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. I do not understand how it is that men would ever be made accountable for something they could not help or have any control over? How could men be made accountable for thier unbelief if they were not given the capacity to believe the message?

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
We must keep sowing and leave the miracle of the growth with the Lord.

Mark 4:26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;

27 And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.

28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.

The man in verse 26 is the preacher, the seed is the word of God and the ground is the heart of the sinner onto which the seed falls. The preacher sows the seed and takes his rest in confidence that the seed will germinate, but he doesn’t know how that happens.
For the earth, or the heart verse 28 brings forth fruit of its self; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.

Now we know that the same good seed is broadcast to all men, but the seed will only germinate when it falls on good fertile ground. So what is it that makes the soil of the heart fertile?
Proverbs 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
There are those whose hearts are stony and hard, and unless God prepares the heart and makes it fertile so that the seed can germinate, the sowing of the seed is in vain. But we must keep sowing because we don’t know how prepared the hearts are to receive the word. God does not prepare all hearts and that is why not all who hear the word are saved. If God does prepare the heart of man and has predestinated him to eternal life, the heart will bring forth fruit of itself verse 28.

The word (herself) verse 28 is the Greek word (automatos) from which we get the word automatic. So when the good seed of the word of God is sown in a prepared heart, it automatically produces fruit due to the new nature of the soil of the heart. The man himself is responsible because his new nature is producing fruit automatically within the heart.

The unregenerate man is responsible because his heart produces thorns and thistles automatically, which are emblems of the curse. They don’t need to be planted because the roots are already there.
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
hello, oneinchrist, you wrote
quote:
Hi Eden,
How then could it be fair to make the unbelievers accountable for their unbelief? I believe it is scriptural to say that unbelief is sin.....for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. I do not understand how it is that men would ever be made accountable for something they could not help or have any control over? How could men be made accountable for thier unbelief if they were not given the capacity to believe the message?
God and Jesus decided on the method (plan of salvation thru Jesus dying on the cross for their sins and Jesus resurrecting), and then if some or even many people are not able to accept the method (plan of salvation thru Jesus), the people are still making their choice "in real time".

Probably when dealing with a sinful world, there IS no plan which could include everybody, short of God just saying, "okay, I forgive everybody no matter what you have done, here is free eternal life for everybody".

The reason God could not have chosen the "forgive everybody plan" is because God had said in the garden of Eden, "of the tree of knowledge you shall NOT eat" and "in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die" and "the soul that sins, it shall die".

For God to subsequently decide "oh well, I just told you that in the garden to try to get you to behave" would contradict God's aspect of justice.

Also, eventhough all men are sinful, some Adamic men have made a conscious effort to "be a considerate and kind person", while others have completely disregarded God's laws and killed, raped, beat and stole, at will.

It would not be just and fair for God to say later, "the rules did not really matter", because the people who robbed and stole got economic advantage over others who decided NOT to rob and steal, and so on.

So in order for God's justice to remain intact, God had to deal with the matter of sin, and especially with some having sinned much more than others, to solve that problem, God sent Jesus to die in place of everyone, so that no one can say anything like "oh, he sinned much more than me, how can he receive eternal life just like me"?

There probably was no other plan available to dealwith both the penalty of a sinful earth, and provide new life thru Jesus Christ.

But as with any plan, not everyone can accept it, and who can accept the plan is probably subject to their family history. For instance, if my parents were bornagain Christians, my chances of being able to accept the plan are considerabley increased (not guaranteed by def increased) as compared to me being a son born into a family of atheists whose "mantra" has since my birth been that this "God stuff is ridiculous, eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you die" (this person can also be saved, but the odds are against him), and so on.

So the plan itself that could be used was limited (since it had to deal with God's justice and with God's mercy at the same time), and in turn each individual's family history limited who would accept the plan.

Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate and narrow is the way, which leads to life, and few there be that find it.

Matthew 7:13
Enter in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be who go in thereat.

love, Eden
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi Eden,
I certainly agree with you that there are all kinds of circumstances (childhood upbringing and cultural influence for example) that can have an effect on what direction we lean towards in our lives. I do not believe that anyone is condemned unless there is a fully conscious decision to ignore/reject the good news. Once a person has heard and understood the gospel, I have no reason to believe that God has not given them the ability to respond in faith (no matter how little).

Most unbelievers that I have witnessed to in the past who have been resistant still eventually came to admit that they believe what they want to believe and that I can believe what I want to believe. When I ask them why they are willing to take the risk with their souls they usually do not have an answer.
If someone was to say to me......"Daniel, how can you believe Jesus rose from the dead?" I would respond back by telling them, "I do understand how crazy it may seem, but I choose to believe it because I choose to believe that God loves us that much" . Then I wait to see what they have to say before conversation continues. I am not saying that there is a perfect line for every person, but that we should let unbelievers know(in a nice way) that they are willing to risk the fate of their souls. I consider that to be much better than to let them remain comfortable in unbelief.

Thanks for the fellowship Eden.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Dear oneinchrist, you wrote
quote:
Thanks for the fellowship Eden.
Me too, brother; thanks for being so kind and calm and fair.

You continued
quote:
Hi Eden, I do not believe that anyone is condemned unless there is a fully conscious decision to ignore/reject the good news. Once a person has heard and understood the gospel, I have no reason to believe that God has not given them the ability to respond in faith (no matter how little).
Yea, I would agree with that. However, there are countries, like Saudi Arabia, where it is a crime, punishable by death, to convert from Islam to Christianity, IF one was born a Moslem.

And it is a crime to preach the gospel in Saudi Arabia, so overall the population of Saudi Arabia
has "much less of a chance to hear the gospel" than say, USA America, and so the chances of the Saudi Arabians hearing and being able to respond to the gospel are considerably reduced over American or Europeans, for example.

I say the above because u wrote
quote:
I do not believe that anyone is condemned unless there is a fully conscious decision to ignore/reject the good news. Once a person has heard and understood the gospel, I have no reason to believe that God has not given them the ability to respond in faith (no matter how little).
Lost of people don't even get the chance to hear the gospel. What happens then? Is that fair?

Or will God provide one more opportunity for those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel (as say, in the jungles of New Guinea in 200 A.D.), people there "never heard nothing".

So I personally DO believe that for God to be fair, the people who have never had a CHANCE to hear and decide, MUST have a chance to hear and respond, and maybe God will provide them with the gospel at their judgment seat?

oneinchrist continued
quote:
Most unbelievers that I have witnessed to in the past who have been resistant still eventually came to admit that they believe what they want to believe and that I can believe what I want to believe. When I ask them why they are willing to take the risk with their souls they usually do not have an answer.
They "risk" their souls because this whole "soul idea" is "all part of that same nonsense of the Bible... You continued
quote:

If someone was to say to me......"Daniel, how can you believe Jesus rose from the dead?" I would respond back by telling them, "I do understand how crazy it may seem, but I choose to believe it because I choose to believe that God loves us that much".
Yes, and I personally also believe that the resurrection is true because of all the astounding miracles that Jesus did in the New and that Yehovah did in the Old.

And how amazingly all the books of the Bible dovetail into each other, and how "mere fishermen" wrote most of the New Testament...what do you think, that these fishermen got together in a Galilean cafe and plotted how to not say the same thing in each one's gospel? [type] [roll on floor]

In other words, I believe the good news of the resurrection "not just because I know that God loves me that much" (although that can work too), but there are "loads" of good reason of why we should and could "believe the good news of the resurrection", of "it may sound crazy but I do believe that Jesus rose from the dead". [roll on floor]

You continued
quote:
Then I wait to see what they have to say before conversation continues. I am not saying that there is a perfect line for every person, but that we should let unbelievers know(in a nice way) that they are willing to risk the fate of their souls.
Yes, they risk the fate of their own souls, but better yet, they lose out on participating "in the world-to-come", this should be a huge part of our Christian gospel too: it's not just the destinity of the soul into something negative, we must emphasize much more what they are missing out on: participation in the world-to-come with Jesus ruling over the earth as King of kings, and we having received a body like the resurrected Jesus had, and live forever on a renewed earth and repaired sky. Less punishment preaching, more "so if the free gift" teaching.

You continued:
quote:
I consider that to be much better than to let them remain comfortable in unbelief.
Well, that is good. I tend to find that God provides opportunities, here and there, for me to suddenly be able to say something more about me being a bornagain-type Christian and interject the gospel of Jesus Christ to my friends and acquaintances again.

Luke 13
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbers it the ground?

8 And he, answering, said to him, Lord, leave it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:

9 And if it bears fruit, well: but if not, then after that You shall cut it down.

As the Lord provides opportunities for us to say something, so He dungs their ground some more to see if it will bear fruit.

love, Eden
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi Eden,
I hope I didnt give you the impression that I am all about "scare tactics". In the past I have had friends who have been willing to listen to me tell them about the new world to come and how wonderful it will surely be. It just so happens to be in my experience witnessing that its been only certain particular individuals who would have the patience to sit and listen to me talk about all that at any length. When I realize that conversation about God is not going to last very long, that is when I have more of a tendency to ask them why they would be willing to risk their souls. They are usually more surprised than angry when I ask them that question. I thought I might add that I am not a stranger to most of the people that I witness to. They are people that I have befriended over the years. Some of them, perhaps, would be more offended by some of the things that I say if I were not friends with them at all.

One more item that I would like to adress. You made mention that we should preach more on the "free Gift" than on Hell. From my experience witnessing, there is virtually no one who is ignorant of the story of Jesus and that Jesus is sent from God to make forgiveness available to us. I am finding that is not what is so offensive to some people, but what is really so offensive to them is the prospect that they would no longer be able to run their own lives because they would have to be subject to the authority of Jesus.
One of the guys I was witnessing to came right out and said it. He told me that he believed that religion was like a catch 22. Then I said to him " What do you mean by that?, that if you accept the forgiveness for your sins that you are suddenly trapped because you will belong to Jesus?" He replied, "Thats right, thats what Im talking about". I wanted to ask him what is so wrong with belonging to Jesus but the words just didnt come out. All I was thinking about was Pauls contrasting words "slaves to sin" and "slaves to Christ". Then my thought was "Oh boy, Lord how do we reach people that think that way?"

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
hi, oneinchrist, regarding your post directly above this one, I agree with the first paragraph, and as to the second paragraph, that they mostly object to being under the authority of Jesus, that is probably right. The response is probably something like: "I don't need anybody to be authority over me, I can do just fine myself, thank you".

Of course, interestingly, is that "authority" is so sweet and kind and smart and solicitous and helpful, that "only a fool" would not let this resurrected Jesus "help them with their life".

But no doubt, ignorance of what the Bible actually offers them, and their own pride is what keeps them from accepting that offer: "I don't need any help; I can run my own life fine, thank you very much", and all that.

Or another phrase, "I don't need anybody to die for me, and I don't WANT anybody to die for me, it's creepy!" (LOL) But hey, I was there once, and now look at me.

love, Eden
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi Eden,

I totally agree that its a "loving" authority that people are rejecting.

That is why I believe that our witness should always display love also.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by The Beauty of Holiness777 (Member # 7380) on :
 
Amen Eden and Daniel well said! [Smile]
 
Posted by pinkhatbob (Member # 7428) on :
 
I would like to put my two cents in on the predestination topic which I'm in agreement with. If the things we do in this world makes a difference to the Lords decision process than what happened with the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46? Neither group could remember when they had done the least of these things. If we go about doing these things with a concious effort to fullfill this portion of scripture, than we will be able to say to Him that we did these things, but this is not the case. We reply to Him when did we do these things. So my point is what is the difference between the sheep and the goats. I understand it to be the predistination of God for the elect (sheep). After all our best righteous acts are as filthy rags to the Lord. Again if that is the case what can we do to be saved? Beleive on the Lord Jesus Christ, Amen, but what if this good news is hidden from those who are in a state of perishing? How can those who are perishing believe in something they neighter can hear or see because it is hidden from them? I'll close with this section of scripture:
"2 Cor. 4:1 THEREFORE, SINCE we do hold and engage in this ministry by the mercy of God [granting us favor, benefits, opportunities, and especially salvation], we do not get discouraged (spiritless and despondent with fear) or become faint with weariness and exhaustion.
2We have renounced disgraceful ways (secret thoughts, feelings, desires and underhandedness, the methods and arts that men hide through shame); we refuse to deal craftily (to practice trickery and cunning) or to adulterate or handle dishonestly the Word of God, but we state the truth openly (clearly and candidly). And so we commend ourselves in the sight and presence of God to every man's conscience.

3But even if our Gospel (the glad tidings) also be hidden (obscured and covered up with a veil that hinders the knowledge of God), it is hidden [only] to those who are perishing and obscured [only] to those who are spiritually dying and veiled [only] to those who are lost.

4For the god of this world has blinded the unbelievers' minds [that they should not discern the truth], preventing them from seeing the illuminating light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ (the Messiah), Who is the Image and Likeness of God.

5For what we preach is not ourselves but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves [merely] as your servants (slaves) for Jesus' sake.
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
hello, pinkhatbob, thanks for joining in the discussion. You wrote
quote:
If the things we do in this world makes a difference to the Lords decision process than what happened with the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46? Neither group could remember when they had done the least of these things. If we go about doing these things with a concious effort to fullfill this portion of scripture, than we will be able to say to Him that we did these things, but this is not the case. We reply to Him when did we do these things. So my point is what is the difference between the sheep and the goats.
The disciples asked "when did we do these things TO YOU", because Jesus had talked AS IF the disciples had done these things TO JESUS, and of course Jesus had been "all-sufficient" and had not needed that kind of help from His disciples.

So the disciples were confused; therefore Jesus explained it further that He meant "if you do it for these the least of my disciples", etc., and then the disciples understood what Jesus meant.

So Jesus AT NO TIME implied that "they couldn't even remember that they had done these things" as if they were "unconscious robots". After Jesus had explained what He meant, then the disciples understood that Jesus referred to "good works toward others", not toward Jesus.

love, Eden
 
Posted by pinkhatbob (Member # 7428) on :
 
quote "The disciples asked "when did we do these things TO YOU", because Jesus had talked AS IF the disciples had done these things TO JESUS, and of course Jesus had been "all-sufficient" and had not needed that kind of help from His disciples.

So the disciples were confused; therefore Jesus explained it further that He meant "if you do it for these the least of my disciples", etc., and then the disciples understood what Jesus meant.

So Jesus AT NO TIME implied that "they couldn't even remember that they had done these things" as if they were "unconscious robots". After Jesus had explained what He meant, then the disciples understood that Jesus referred to "good works toward others", not toward Jesus.

love, Eden "

Whats this have to do with my referances to scripture? I'm not following you.
 
Posted by pinkhatbob (Member # 7428) on :
 
ON the subject of robots. Robots have a program that they follow right? Ok lets look at these verses.
Ps.37:23The steps of a [good] man are directed and established by the Lord when He delights in his way [and He busies Himself with his every step].

Prov. 20:24 Man's steps are ordered by the Lord. How then can a man understand his way?

Jer 10:23 O Lord [pleads Jeremiah in the name of the people], I know that [the determination of] the way of a man is not in himself; it is not in man [even in a strong man or in a man at his best] to direct his [own] steps.

We are the clay and He is the potter.
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
pinkhatbob wrote,
quote:
ON the subject of robots. Robots have a program that they follow right? Ok lets look at these verses.
Ps.37:23The steps of a [good] man are directed and established by the Lord when He delights in his way [and He busies Himself with his every step].

Prov. 20:24 Man's steps are ordered by the Lord. How then can a man understand his way?
But in another place it says that the "steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD":

Psalm 37:23
The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and He delights in his way (or he delighst in His way).

pinkhatbob, you also wrote
quote:
Jer 10:23 O Lord [pleads Jeremiah in the name of the people], I know that [the determination of] the way of a man is not in himself; it is not in man [even in a strong man or in a man at his best] to direct his [own] steps.
Well, yes, Jeremiah is stating the obvious, that when Adam and Eve decided to operate their own bodies from their own soul level, without any further input from their spirit--and thus no input from the Spirit of God--Jeremiah stated the obvious when he wrote:
quote:
Jer 10:23 O Lord [pleads Jeremiah in the name of the people], I know that [the determination of] the way of a man is not in himself; it is not in man [even in a strong man or in a man at his best] to direct his [own] steps.
But that does not mean that today's "Adam" and "Eve" are clay!!!

It merely means that today's "Adam" and "Eve" are operating "as if" the earth belonged to them and "as if" the earth is now their own domain, not caring anymore "about God", for "this earth is our place now and don't no one try to take it from us", type of thing.

pinkhatbob, lastly you said
quote:
We are the clay and He is the potter.
Not all all. The non-Christians are still very active on the earth and are a force to reckon with, even owning nuclear weapons.

Ultimately it is true that God will accomplish ALL His purposes, but that does NOT mean that man "is the clay" as if "man only does what God makes man do".

No, it means that non-Christian man continues to sin and operate his own body just like Adam and Eve did "way back there", and for that they will be punished.

Because the descendants of "Adam and Eve" are living, loose-running entities on the earth, they are an actual force that God and Jesus will have to reckon with at Jesus's Second Coming:

Chapter)
Revelation 19:15
And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and He shall rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

God and Jesus are more powerful than these rebellious Adamites and Eva-ites, but they are a real, self-thinking force to be reckoned with.

The Bible shows they will lose, but it will be a real battle nonetheless; the nations have arrived at this season by "doing their own thinking", NOT by "being the clay and God is the potter".

God the potter has closely "followed the progess of what the nations are doing", but for the most part, the nations are "making their own decisions right now WITHOUT GOD".

Indeed, the Bible shows that only bornagain Chrisians are allowed to "hear from God again thru the Holy Spirit", but the rest of the non-Christian world, they are making ALL their decisions WITHOUT GOD.

How then are they "the clay" and God is the "potter"? It is more like the "pot has been made by the potter" but now the potter is being put to the use for which it was made.

In "human" terms, now the human is "running loose on the earth", as in "independent entity", in "enmity" with God until the Second Coming of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

The clay is making its own decisions WITHOUT the Potter, and making LOTS of decisions without the Potter, to boot. "Do not be surprised, 'They MUST first be born again'."

"For flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God."

love, Eden
 
Posted by pinkhatbob (Member # 7428) on :
 
Edan I'm sorry I entered into dialog with you. I don't follow any of your thinking. Make any comments about my post if you wish but I can't reason with you. Sorry I got sucked into it.
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Why is it that there are some people who think that they must conclude that God is not God if He has allowed man to have self-expression which permits the use of a free-will? Free-will does not mean that a man can exercise control over God, free-will means that man can choose not to align his will with that of God....thus remaining in rebellion towards God.

and

Why is it that there are some people who think that the opposite of having self- expression is a robot? I think the opposite of self-expression is to be God. Either God was going to make us Gods just like Him or he was going to make us imperfect which would allow for self-expression which permits exercise of a will.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Yes! For consideration I offer that the person who is truly surrendered to God by faith is 'delivered' from the robotic state, not translated into it. For the Christian personality is free to a degree which it cannot be without surrender. So it is an angel of light confusion which is cast upon someone who thinks that we become 'robots' when we let God be in control.

quote:
We are the clay and He is the potter.
Indeed! But clay doesn't have free will. We do. And here is how it works. God will not overrule our free will. Therefore for all practical purposes HE is not the Potter, if we do not yield.
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
pinkhatbob said
quote:
Edan I'm sorry I entered into dialog with you. I don't follow any of your thinking. Make any comments about my post if you wish but I can't reason with you. Sorry I got sucked into it.
Ok. Be blessed. Eden
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
hi, oneinchrist, you wrote
quote:
Gods just like Him or He was going to make us imperfect which would allow for self-expression which permits exercise of a will.
Regarding the part I bolded, where in the Bible does it say that "God has made us IMPERFECT"? My Bible says that on each Creative Day, God said that what He has created was "good":

Genesis 1
31 God saw all that He had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

Strong's Concordance: good

Gen 1:31 And God 430 saw 7200 every thing that 834 he had made 6213 , and, behold, [it was] very 3966 good 2896. And the evening 6153 and the morning 1242 were the sixth 8345 day 3117.

2896 towb:

1) good, pleasant, agreeable

a) pleasant, agreeable (to the senses)
b) pleasant (to the higher nature)
c) good, excellent (of its kind)
d) good, rich, valuable in estimation
e) good, appropriate, becoming
f) better (comparative)
g) glad, happy, prosperous (of man's sensuous nature)
h) good understanding (of man's intellectual nature)
i) good, kind, benign
j) good, right (ethical)

Where does it say in the Bible that God "made us imperfect", oneinchrist?

love, Eden
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi Eden,
I think that you might not understand how I am drawing that conclusion. First of all, we know that God is perfect(7), not only because of His inability to sin ,but also because of His "divine" nature. Man(6) was not created as a divine being(7) in the "express image of God". Man(6) was created in the image of God. Neither was man was created without the capacity to sin, therefore, He is not perfect like God. Now by the law of deductive reasoning I believe it safe to conclude that we were created "imperfect" ..........and this would not have to mean that what God did was not "good". What may be "good" to God may not seem that way to man depending on how man looks at it. Lucifer(6) didnt seem to be very happy about what God(7) called "good". "Good" was not "good" enough for him......and we know where that led.


With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
hi, oneinchrist, you wrote
quote:
Man(6) was not created as a divine being(7) in the "express image of God". Man(6) was created in the image of God. Neither was man was created without the capacity to sin, therefore, He is not perfect like God.
Well, if you are now going to "compare man to God" than man is of "not as perfect as God is".

But man is not God. Man is man. Man was created a perfect man, with all the abilities to remain a perfect man, but also with all the abilities to become an imperfect man.

But orinally God "saw that man was good"; what man did thereafter, is what perfect man decided to do:

Ezekiel 28:15
You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, until iniquity was found in you.

Strong's Concordance

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou [wast] perfect 8549 in thy ways 1870 from the day 3117 that thou wast created 1254, till iniquity 5766 was found 4672 in thee.

perfect 8549

complete, whole, entire, sound
a) complete, whole, entire
b) whole, sound, healthful
c) complete, entire (of time)
d) sound, wholesome, unimpaired, innocent, having integrity
e) what is complete or entirely in accord with truth and fact (neuter adj/subst)

"KJV — without blemish 44, perfect 18, upright 8, without spot 6, uprightly 4, whole 4, sincerely 2, complete 1, full 1, misc 3"

To repeat what you said, oneinchrist,
quote:
Man(6) was not created as a divine being(7) in the "express image of God". Man(6) was created in the image of God. Neither was man created without the capacity to sin, therefore, He is not perfect like God.
Man was made a perfect man, not a perfect God.

love, Eden
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi Eden,
I had a feeling that is the direction that you would come from on your response to me. I would certainly agree that man was created just the way that God intended, not that He had somehow got it wrong.......I had hoped that you were not thinking that was what I was implying......that is why I had clarified what I meant by perfect and imperfect. I think you do understand my explanation and I understand yours. I agree with you that God had created us perfect "beings" in the sense that we are made exactly as He intended. Althought I still can understand why someone may question what one means when they use the words "perfect beings", so it may have to be explained to them.
......especially considering that you hear a lot of people casually say that "nobody is perfect".

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
We are only perfect through faith, and that is because faith 'is', trusting the one who is perfect, and who 'is' our substitute. That is why HE said that all you need is the faith 'in size', of a grain of mustard. Infinitesimal! Because it is not we who are perfect. But we have adequate faith to trust in Him who is, by faith, to therefore benefit by Him who is.

And we benefit by HIS life. HE is the bread of life. His life is the bread. Perfection enters us through faith. The 'Bread' of life is our perfection. Perfection is when we come to the end of ourselves, and through faith, HE begins. It begins when we are 'allowing' Him, and 'as' we are allowing Him to be our bread (that is, as we receive Him).
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
oneinchrist wrote
quote:
Although I still can understand why someone may question what one means when they use the words "perfect beings", so it may have to be explained to them ... especially considering that you hear a lot of people casually say that "nobody is perfect".
That bolded last statement IS now true: after the fall of Adam and Eve, nobody IS perfect anymore, except Jesus was.

But Jesus did not come up through the Adam and Eve line, other than using Mary as His surrogate mother-womb. That's why Jesus could still be perfect, but since Adam and Eve sinned, no one of the Adam and Eve line has been perfect anymore.

love, Eden
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi Eden,
Just so I understand you correctly.......you are not saying that Adam and Eve were at one time as perfect as Jesus? In other words that Adam and Eve had the same nature as Jesus before the fall??

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Of course they had the same nature. Why do you think that the change in nature was described as 'the fall'?
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi Michael,
I am making this post just so I can have the 100th post on this topic----LOL just kidding

Because of the nature of Jesus, He was unable to sin....... but Adam and Eve on the other hand did not come into this world without the ability to sin. How could Adam and Eve have had the same nature as Jesus then?

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Hi, oneinchrist, I'll get to the other part of your post later, but you wrote
quote:
Because of the nature of Jesus, He was unable to sin......
Of course Jesus was able to sin; He just never chose to sin. Therefore, unlike Adam and Eve, Jesus REMAINED sinless. And therefore the Bible says "He LEARNED obedience".

love, Eden
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
oneinchrist wrote:
quote:
Eden, just so I understand you correctly.......you are not saying that Adam and Eve were at one time as perfect as Jesus? In other words that Adam and Eve had the same nature as Jesus before the fall?
I would turn that statement the other way around. Jesus in His capacity as the Son of Man was made just like Adam and Eve before the fall.

Note that in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul uses 2 interesting terms, the first Adam, and the last Adam:

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

And Paul also used the following terms, the first man and the second man:

1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Jesus was called "the last Adam" because Jesus "had to be just like the first Adam" in order for God to "undo" what the first Adam had done.

That is, it would not be "fair" if Jesus had "greater capacities" (as the Son of Man) than the first Adam had, because then people could say, "well, Jesus was able to not sin because Jesus was made superior to the first Adam".

Therefore God had to make "the last Adam" with exactly the same capacities as the first Adam, to PROVE that man DOES NOT HAVE TO SIN, and Jesus, as the last Adam, passed that test.

As to the phrases "the first man" and "the second man", why was Jesus called the "second" man? Because, after all, by the 1st century A.D., Jesus was probably the "one billionth" man (according to the flesh).

But no, the Bible calls Jesus "the second man" and calls Adam "the first man". Why? Because there have been ONLY TWO ADAMS so far.

The first Adam or "first man" was Adam BEFORE THE FALL, and the second "Adam" or "second man" was Jesus who was "made just like the first Adam before the first Adam fell".

So in His aspect as the Son of man, Jesus was made and HAD TO be made just like the first Adam, and so far there have been "only two Adams".

This is also the meaning of the following two verses:

Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Philippians 2:7
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.

As long as Jesus was still alive, He only acted as the last Adam and as the second man. Jesus did not become the Son of God again until after Jesus resurrected, ascended, and took the blood of the last Adam and of the second man up into heaven for a testimony before God.

Later that same day, Jesus returned from heaven to earth, but now Jesus was the Son of God and no longer was the last Adam or the second man.

love, Eden
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi again Eden,
ok ,let me get something straight. When you say that Adam and Eve had the same nature as Jesus before the fall that means to me that they were deity.........and that I cannot agree with. Deity is not created. Deity always has been and always will be eternal.

What I am presently struggling with is the question of whether or not Jesus could have sinned? I am not sure how deity could sin? I do not think that the fact that Jesus was faced with temptations means that He could have sinned.

This is what it states in my bible dictionary under the definition of CHRIST, SINLESSNESS OF......
This expression refers to Christs perfect freedom from sin not only in outward aspect of acts of sin but also in its "inward aspect of an inclination to sin".

It is this perfect freedom from the "inward aspect of an inclination to sin" that I do not believe that Adam and Eve ever possessed. I strongly believe that this perfect freedom is associated with His deity.

I am here to learn with you.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi again Eden,
I was just visiting a site called "Let Us Reason Ministries" and the title of the subject called "Could Jesus have Sinned?"

They state that.......

--while Jesus had the choice to sin, He did not have the ability. The humanity of Christ could never be separate from or supported from His deity.

--He was not able to go against Gods will because He did not have the nature of sin to have that possibility.

--the purpose of the temptations was to demonstrate He could not sin and was in fact the Son of God.

I just thought that this may provide as some additional perspective on the subject.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Onenchrist: His nature was their life! His life was their perfection. Else their perfection was of works. And we know that Adam and Eve, of all people, were not justified by works. They didn't have to do anything - except not to eat of the forbidden fruit! Yet they had every choice available to them. So we see how easy it was for them in the garden.

And this verse further illustrates how easy they had it.

Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground [by the sweat of their brow] from whence he was taken.

And here, this illustrates how that they 'lost the innocence'. That means that they 'fell'. And since they fell, they 'broke' with perfection. In other words, God wasn't Lord over their lives any more. For to be evil simply means, 'to do it on your own'. After the fall they had to make it [do it] on their own.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

But Jesus came that we may have life, and have it more abundantly! That is restoration to the Garden. That means that we don't do it on our own. PRAISE GOD! But we have to submit to it, which means to repent! Then we can again have HIS perfection, which translates to having HIS will done in our lives. Amen!
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Good words, Michael Harrison.

love, Eden
"His Love is always the same,
but is never a ball & chain"
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
hello, oneinchrist, let me say first that I appreciate learning more about the Bible by having these discussions with you. You wrote to Eden
quote:
When you say that Adam and Eve had the same nature as Jesus before the fall that means to me that they were deity...
Well, actually Jesus was Deity as the Son of God, but He "put off His deity to become the Son of man":

2 Philippians 2
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.

Eden here: As the Son of God, Jesus was in the form of God and He thought it not robbery to be equal with God. But then:

The Holy Spirit came on Mary and with Mary's permission, the Holy Spirit implanted a God-fertilized egg of Jesus into Mary's womb and this Jesus was born in Bethlehem.

Now Jesus is in Israel as the Son of man, who like the first Adam, has to live a life completely dependent for input on God the Father.

John 8:28
Then said Jesus to them, When you have lifted up the Son of man, then shall you know that I am He, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father has taught me, I speak these things.

The first Adam and Eve broke this compact to "only do what the Father taught them or asked them to do", but the last Adam Jesus ALWAYS kept this agreement with the Father from birth to death.

Hebrews 4:15
For we have not a high priest who cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but who was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

To repeat what you said, oneinchrist
quote:
When you say that Adam and Eve had the same nature as Jesus before the fall that means to me that they were deity...
No Adam and Eve were not divine. Because "God so loved the world", Jesus made Himself willingly into a second Adam so that His Father God "could solve His problem" of "one Adam for one Adam".

Adam and Eve were not divine. The Son of God stooped down in His mercy to become the Son of man for us.

2 Philippians 2
7 But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and He was made in the likeness of men.

love, Eden
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi again Eden,
I cannot agree that Jesus ever put off His deity. If that was the case then how could he have perfectly resisted temptation?

I found a really good section on this subject in my bible dictionary. It is under the heading TEMPTATION OF CHRIST and under the subtitle THE NATURE OF CHRISTS SINLESSNESS. This is what it states..........

There has been much theological debate over Christ's ability to sin, posse peccare, and over three possibilities: (1) Christ could have sinned , but did not; (2) Christ was able not to sin; (3) Christ was not able to sin. The crux or heart of the debate centers in what constitutes real temptation. If Christ could not have sinned, did He then ever really face a genuine temptation? If on the other hand, in order to make the temptation real, He could have sinned, is this not blasphemy? How could Christ sin since He is God? Even if we choose the second alternative and say Christ was able not to sin, do we not then imply He was able also to sin and thus still impugn His inherent holiness?

The dilemma can be solved if we first recognize that, though according to the human nature no man would be able not to sin, Christs human nature along with His divine belongs to the one divine person and is ruled by that person. It is the divine person of the Christ who hated sin and could not countenance it in His divine nature, who out of love suffered temptation in all points like as we without succumbing to sin (Heb 4:15). In the human nature Christ could have sinned, but because of His divine person He could not. Therefore we do not say either that Christ was able to sin, or that Christ was able not to sin, but that Christ could not sin. END.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Hi, oneinchrist, the following comments were made after reading your FIRST para ONLY. I will read the rest later. You wrote
quote:
I cannot agree that Jesus ever put off His deity. If that was the case then how could he have perfectly resisted temptation?
oneinchrist, God created the first Adam and Eve perfect in that Adam and Eve were created with a free will to choose whatever they wanted to do.

Adam and Eve could continue to listen to God's Spirit for the best answers on earth, or Adam and Eve could say, "Hey God, Lucifer showed me that I don't really need you, God, to tell me what to do next, I can figure this out myself quite well, thank you."

Before the first Adam decided to go his own way with his wife, without God, Jesus proved that a man "made just like the first Adam" COULD, COULD REMAIN FAITHFUL TO GOD from birth to death.

Now, admittedly Jesus died around age 33 and that we call "the sinless life," and it was, which actually brings me to an interesting point, what if Jesus had lived, say, 75 years? [youpi]

But to get back to what you said, oneinchrist, you wrote
quote:
I cannot agree that Jesus ever put off His deity. If that was the case then how could he have perfectly resisted temptation?
IMO Jesus had to be "an indentical being in capacity" as the first Adam so that Jesus could ATONE for what the first Adam did. ONLY people of EQUAL RANK can atone for each other.

And note that Jesus is SPECIFICALLY called "the last Adam". If Jesus was NO Adam, then that title could not have been applied by the Holy Spirit to Jesus in the Scriptures.

But Jesus was NOT the "billionth" Adam by the 1st century A.D., Jesus was also "the second man", while the first Adam was "the first man".

Why the second man and not the billionth man? Because there have been ONLY TWO ADAMS HAVE EVER EXISTED WHO DID NOT SIN (BEFORE THE FALL IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN).

So Jesus was a "total Adam", or what the Bible calls "the Son of man", "made in the likeness of men".

love, Eden
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
oneinchrist wrote
quote:
What I am presently struggling with is the question of whether or not Jesus could have sinned? I am not sure how deity could sin?
Jesus PUT OFF His Deity and "became man for us". As "man" or as "the Son of man", Jesus had the potential to sin, just like the first Adam had the potential to sin before he sinned in the garden of Eden. Jesus LAID DOWN His Deity to "become the Son of man".

After Jesus rose from the dead, He met Mary M. in the tomb garden and said to her, "Do not touch Me, for I am not yet ascended to the Father".

Then that same day Jesus ascended to the Father to take the precious blood up there to show Him, and from that moment Jesus was no longer the "Son of man" but was now again the "Son of God".

That same evening, Jesus came back from heaven "as the Son of God" and showed Himself to over 500 people until Jesus ASCENDED as the Son of God from Bethany on the mount of Olives, and "the clouds took Him up", and the disciples "returned to Jerusalem rejoicing" at what they had seen.

Jesus died on the cross as "the Son of man", but Jesus rose from the grave and ascended that same day as the Son of God again.

love, Eden
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
oneinchrist wrote
quote:
There has been much theological debate over Christ's ability to sin, and over three possibilities: (1) Christ could have sinned, but did not; (2) Christ was able not to sin; (3) Christ was not able to sin. The crux or heart of the debate centers in what constitutes real temptation.
Regarding the part that I bolded, that is even the amazing part. Consider that the first Adam and Eve decided to be tempted "even within the perfect environment of the garden life with God."

Now, please understand, that Jesus was NOT MADE LIKE YOU AND ME because WE have come up AFTER the first Adam had fallen, but Jesus was made just like the first Adam before the first Adam fell.

So consider then, that the second Adam Jesus had to face all the havoc and cruelty and envy and theft and forgery and lies that Adam's sin of "going his own way" had caused, and yet this second Adam Jesus was able to remain sinless up to His death, even in the face of "not being provoked by all this havoc". Now THAT was a far greater accomplishment by the second Adam.

So to repeat what you said, oneinchristoneinchrist wrote
quote:
(1) Christ could have sinned, but did not; (2) Christ was able not to sin; (3) Christ was not able to sin. The crux or heart of the debate centers in what constitutes real temptation.
Even with all that "temptation", or perhaps even when JESUS SAW what "going it alone had done to the world", perhaps it was EASY for Jesus after that to "stay with God istead"?

love, Eden
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi Eden,
Even before the fall, I believe that Adam and Eve had the "inward aspect of the inclination to sin". That is something that I do not believe that Jesus in His deity ever had.

If Adam and Eve had not had the "inward aspect of the inclination to sin" they would have resisted temptation perfectly when temptation arose.

I see the problem that this poses for the way that you view this situation. You are asking......how could they have been perfect if they had the inner inclination to sin? That would go back to what I was trying to say earlier an that is that I do not believe that they were created perfect just like God, but that they were created imperfect which would mean that God created man who with the gift of unique self-expression had the potential for a dark side.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
but Daniel, if Yahshua did not have he ability to sin, His temptations mean nothing to the believer....
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi becauseHelives,
I have heard a possible explanation for what you are presenting..............
From the standpoint of the devil, the temptations were surely intended to cause Jesus to sin...........but it could be that from the standpoint of God that the temptations were allowed primarily to prove that Jesus is truely the Son of God. It is interesting to note that the Holy Spirit is who led Jesus to the tempter , the devil didnt just creep up on Jesus and take Him by surprise.

From the stand-point of the believer, I think that we are more drawn in by the willingness of Jesus to die than by His ability to overcome the devils ploys. Some people will dare to mock over the fact that Jesus was sinless, but fewer people dare to mock over the fact that He loved us enough to suffer a terrible death on the cross.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
It is another one of those difficult questions, which are hard on the mind. It is like pondering how someone cannot have a beginning.
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
hi, oneinchrist, you said,
quote:
Even before the fall, I believe that Adam and Eve had the "inward aspect of the inclination to sin". That is something that I do not believe that Jesus in His deity ever had.
From the position of soul or personality and mind and will and emotions, Adam can look to his "right" to the spirit of man and ALWAYS get his information from that direction.

Or, Adam can look to the left to operating his own life apart from God.

But Adam himself is in the "neutral" spot, just as in a car transmission. From "neutral", Adam can go "right" or "left".

Now, you said,
quote:
Even before the fall, I believe that Adam and Eve had the "inward aspect of the inclination to sin". That is something that I do not believe that Jesus in His deity ever had.
You are proposing that God created Adam at the "neutral" position, but "leaning in the direction of the left" EVEN BEFORE Adam's life has even started.

Such a "leaning tower of Pisa" would be "very unfair to Adam" and would "prove nothing" if God has already CREATED Adam with a "propensity to lean to the left or operating his own life apart from God."

That would prove nothing. The only way God can have proved anything is to create Adam in the absolute "neutral" position from which Adam can "freely choose the direction HE wants to go into today" (before he chose to go into the left channel.

love, Adam
"uh, I mean, Eden"
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi Eden,
I am proposing that Adam was created imperfect----meaning not an exact replica of God, but with a gift of unique self expression which has the POTENTIAL to turn on God. To have the POTENTIAL to turn on God does not mean that you are unfairly leaned in that direction. I hope you understand me better.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by scythewieldor (Member # 6830) on :
 
Dear Believers,
I'm late into this thread. I hope you will be gracious to me if what I write is TOO much like someone else's post.
It seems to me that we must have free will. However, I believe that God has predestined the ones to whom He will give faith.
quote:
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
He does not give faith to everyone.
quote:
2Th 3:1 ¶ Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:
2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
Faith in Jesus, the Son of God resurrected from the dead and Lord of all, allows man to access God's grace which overcomes ALL the negative product of free will.
If this is so, we choose how much we will love each other. That determines the degree to which faith replaces doubt in our hearts. And the removal of doubt allows us to enjoy so much more.
quote:
Ga 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 ¶ For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
When we refuse to love each other, God can express His sovereignty in a way that is unpleasant to us.
quote:
1Co 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
33 Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.
So, God expresses sovereignty by choosing the ones that will receive faith. He expresses sovereignty, again, by chastening the disobedient partaker of the Lord's body through sickness and death.
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Why would anyone trouble himself with it? Let God be God and do His thing. In the mean time we should keep it simple under the banner of His name.

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Are we supposed to analyze it? Are we trying to help He who alone is able?

FWIW Someone on the radio echoed this just the other day. He spoke of how that God fore'knew' who would choose Him. He did not choose for them. So I say, think of it as casting dice; eight, ten or fifteen of them. Imagine that when you cast them you know which ones will land with the 'three' facing upwards. But you didn't coerce them! God knows. So that would be an interpretation of 'forknew', which would be different than 'determining'.
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
scythewieldor wrote
quote:
He does not give faith to everyone.
So what about this verse?

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given to me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.

thanks. Eden
 
Posted by scythewieldor (Member # 6830) on :
 
Dear Eden,
The answer is in the part of this scripture where he defines the group.
quote:
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given to me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.
God has given faith to every man that is in the church. Since faith is the gift of God to every man that is in the church, no one should think too highly of himself. Rather, be sober. The measure of faith that you exercise (whatever it is), in every case, it is the gift of God.
When God says that not all men have faith, He should know. Therefore, in any scripture which seems to be contradictory, one must look for the wording that displays the loophole God left Himself.
However, one can not create a loophole out of one's own understanding. That would be adding to the word of God, and orthodoxy requires that we acknowledge that the canon of scripture is fixed.
We can not add. We can not remove.
 
Posted by scythewieldor (Member # 6830) on :
 
Dear Michael Harrison,
Predestination is part of the Gospel.
quote:
Ep 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Notice that we were "chosen in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love". It is much more assuring than foreknowlege.
quote:
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 ¶ What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
I grew up Armenian. I was ready to kill myself because I could not keep myself saved. I told God that, if it meant that I could go to hell early rather than stay and be a serious moral problem to my kith and kin and go to hell later, I might as well blow my brains out.
Then, I heard somebody say -maybe a guy named Sprewell(?)- that predestination does not become an excuse to sin for those who trust in the grace of God. In fact, to know that God has predestined one for salvation helps that one to understand the grace of God in that there was no work that one could produce that would get God's favor. In that sense, the knowledge that one is chosen for salvation makes the Saviour very precious, indeed.
Jesus, not sinful flesh, becomes the focus of the truly saved.
Later, a kind 5-point Calvinist (kind ones are very rare in my experience) showed me how Jesus said that He had chosen us rather than vice versa.
The helmet of salvation has become super-glued and duct-taped to my head. And I am forward to tell people about a Saviour who is a Saviour, indeed. My Jesus doesn't need my help. That is a Saviour worthy of my service.
With that kind of gracious salvation at work, it is easy to keep my eyes on Him more and more. On the other hand, I spend less and less attention on things that cause me to stumble.
The assurance of the extension of the peace of God to me makes me a more profitable ambassador of Christ while it, also, makes me one who leaves fewer stumbling-bocks in his wake.
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
hi, scythewieldor, you wrote re the measure of faith given, that the verse seems to say that this faith was given to members of the church, and I agree that it could be interpreted that way.

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given to me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Eden
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
hi Daniel, others

Hebrews 4:15-16
"For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathise with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need."

"How can Yahweh understand me? Has He ever been through what I have been through?" We have sometimes the picture of an unapproachable, remote God, a God who is far from life and reality. A God whom our difficulties and temptations cannot touch. Well, the Yahshua, the One in whom "dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9) has been through all this. He has been through all that you may be in right now, through all the temptations that may try you and the storms that may hit you. Because He has been through He can understand you. He can fully sympathies the pain, the infirmities and the desires of the human soul. Yahshua sympathies right now what may have hurt you. Yahshua sympathies right now what may have afflicted you. Yahshua sympathies right now all your infirmities, all your problems, every tear you may have shed and every anxiety you may have. Two chapters earlier, in Hebrews 2:16-18 we read:


Hebrews 2:16-18
"For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in every respect, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to Yahweh, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted."
(NKJV-KJV)


Yahshua can help those who are tempted, because He also went through the same temptations. He does not look at you from afar, without knowing how you may feel. He knows it very well. He was made like us in every respect we read. Some have the picture of a Messiah-robot that came, did the work and left. We need however the picture of a Messiah that was made like us in every respect. We need the picture of the MAN Yahshua . In I Timothy 2:5 we read:


I Timothy 2:5
"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Yahshua ,"


The mediator between Yahweh and man, our High Priest and great advocate is One that was made like us IN EVERY RESPECT: THE MAN YAHSHUA. See that the Word of Yahweh, speaking for our advocate, does not choose to call Him as Son of God, or Lord or Saviour or with any other of the titles He has and is. Instead it calls Him MAN – thus stretching the fact that the one that mediates for men, in not a stranger to them but one that was made like them in every respect. He has suffered like men, He was tempted like men and therefore He can sympathies men and mediate for them. "For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham" we read. Have you wept? He wept too. Were you betrayed? He was betrayed too. Were you hungry and thirsty? He was hungry and thirsty too. Were you treated unjustly? He was treated unjustly too. Have you suffered pain? He has suffered pain too. Have you been in agony? He has been in agony too. Have you lost loved ones? He has lost loved ones too. Were you rejected? He was rejected too. Yahshua , "THE MAN Messiah", can perfectly understands you for He was made like you, not only in some points BUT IN EVERY RESPECT, the Scripture says.

Moving further on the same topic in Philippians 2:5-11 we read:


Philippians 2:5-11
"Let this mind be in you which was also in Yahshua , who, being in the form of Yahweh, did not consider it robbery to be equal with Yahweh, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore Yahweh also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Yahshua Master, to the glory of Yahweh the Father."


Yahshua , though He existed in the form of Yahweh, He humbled Himself and He came in the fashion of men. He took the form of a bondservant. He was made like us - with the difference that He was born and stayed without sin – and therefore He can understand us. You could meet Him in the park. You could eat with Him. Then He was a carpenter. Toda
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
scytheweildor??? What do you mean that you couldn't 'keep' yourself saved? I know that I digress from OSAS, and do it fervently. However, I do not believe that once one is saved, that he 'loses' his salvation in this life. Where I believe that OSAS fails is that if one fails to trust Jesus for his or her salvation, and he or she 'takes it for granted', then at the judgment he or she may 'lose' what they thought they had. For scripture declares that there will be those who are 'appointed' their portion - with the unbelievers. This clearly means that they are believers who do not measure up.

Now we know that it is not by works, so 'measuring up' is a curious way to say it if one does not 'earn' it. But there is a responsible 'participation' which the beliver engages in, which 'nets' tasting of the powers of the world to come. For, "Whatsoever is not of faith, is sin." (Rom 14:23) There is participation unto salvation. It is not as though one 'gets saved', and then they 'have it', and then they can go on about their business. For it is about Jesus! It is about relationship. It takes two to Tango, and if one Tangos alone, he is then taking for granted what Jesus has done for him, just as did the poor guy who got only one talent. (His was taken from him, remember.)

Like I said, all men have the opportunity to know Christ. This cannot be possible if some were predestined to know Him, and others were outright predestined for hell. And I assure you that there will be people in hell who didn't have to be there, because they thought they were 'predestined' to go there. That ought to break somebodies heart like the breath being knocked out of them.
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Michael Harrison wrote to scythewieldor:
quote:
What do you mean that you couldn't 'keep' yourself saved? I know that I digress from OSAS, and do it fervently. However, I do not believe that once one is saved, that he 'loses' his salvation in this life. Where I believe that OSAS fails is that if one fails to trust Jesus for his or her salvation, and he or she 'takes it for granted', then at the judgment he or she may 'lose' what they thought they had. For scripture declares that there will be those who are 'appointed' their portion - with the unbelievers. This clearly means that they are believers who do not measure up.
Actually to me the interesting part of your comment above was (in my paraphrase) that "these Christians do not know that they did not measure up until the judgment day".

But what about this? Doesn't the Bible say,[quote]Hebrews 9
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment?

But you are right, it DOES seem as if these believers make it right up to the Judgment Seat of Christ and only THEN do they find out that they deserve a "place with the hypocrites"?

love, Eden
 
Posted by Glory belongs to Him (Member # 7432) on :
 
becauseHElives / Michael Harrison

Really like your last replies! [Smile]
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi becauseHElives,
I was hoping that I was not showing Jesus to be like a "robot" Messiah. I believe that His temptations were as real as any temptations that we receive. I just cannot agree that Jesus put off His deity when He came to the earth. I agree that in His humanness He had experienced what man experiences, but I would not agree that in His deity it was ever possible for Him to be overcome by the evil one.... Hebrews 10..."Then I said, 'Behold, I have come--- In the volume of the book it is written of Me---To do Your will, O God.'"

None of us can imagine what it would be like having been in the bosom of the Father for all eternity past and suddenly coming into this world. I am sure that it was a shocker on a much grander scale than that of Adam and Eve when they were cast out of the garden of Eden.

Now the question is......Were temptations a breeze for Jesus because of His deity? Actually, if we think about this for a second we will realize that even though Jesus had temptations just like we have, the type of temptations that the devil directed towards Jesus were different than ours in the sense that the devil attempted to try to get Jesus to question who He is and what His purpose was........so that while Jesus was tempted as we are..........we were not tempted in exactly the same manner as He was. In other words, the devil was not going to set a promiscuous woman in Jesus' path thinking that was going to do the job. The devils knew who Jesus was, and they devised their tactics accordingly......so in that sense there were quite alluring and attractive temptations set before Him. I guess we cannot humanly fathom the difficulty of these temptations for Jesus. On the one hand I would not say that they were so easy that they provided absolutely no discomfort to Jesus, but on the other hand I would not say that they were so difficult that Jesus was really fortunate to remain sinless.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
hello, oneinchrist, you wrote
quote:
... eventhough Jesus had temptations just like we have, the type of temptations that the devil directed towards Jesus were different than ours in the sense that the devil attempted to try to get Jesus to question who He is and what His purpose was ... so that while Jesus was tempted as we are ... we were not tempted in exactly the same manner as He was.
I don't think that is correct. Satan tried to do exactly the same thing to Jesus as Satan did to Adam in the garden, namely to "get Jesus to act in His own strength and in His own soul abilities".

Thankfully Jesus did not fall for that trap, saying:

John 5:19
Then Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say to you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do: for what things soever He does, these also does the Son likewise.

John 8:28
Then said Jesus to them, When you have lifted up the Son of man, then shall you know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father has taught Me, I speak these things.

Satan asked Jesus (who was hungry) to "turn these stones into bread", even though the Father had not first asked Jesus to "turn these stones into bread". With Jesus, Satan failed because Jesus never acted or "operated" out of His own soul level.

But Satan DID get Adam to operate out of his own soul level instead of bothering to listen to God's instructions first.

So oneinchrist, let me repeat what you wroteoneinchrist, you wrote
quote:
... eventhough Jesus had temptations just like we have, the type of temptations that the devil directed towards Jesus were different than ours ...
No, same temptation, but different result.

love, Eden
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi Eden,
I know that I could not command a stone to be turned to bread.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by scythewieldor (Member # 6830) on :
 
Dear Michael Harrison,
Actually, I think that we pretty much agree.
What I was saying about "keeping my salvation" was out of the statement that I had grown up under an Armenian perspective. As such, my focus was works-oriented and, thus, doomed to joylessness.
The doctrine of predestination, correctly presented, shifted my focus to the grace and sovereignty of God.
Faith that is completely on what God has done and is doing is saving faith that produces very much joy, peace, and righteousness in the Holy Ghost
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
oneinchrist said
quote:
Hi Eden, I know that I could not command a stone to be turned to bread.
That is because YOU are made "after the similitude (likeness) of Adam" AFTER Adam sinned. So because you have inherited the sinful nature from Adam, YOU cannot turn stones into bread.

But Jesus was not made like you. YOU came up through the Adam and Eve line, with all its sinful and dissipated, weak energy.

But Jesus was made like the first Adam, with BRANDNEW energy that came DIRECTLY from heaven:

Luke 1:35
And the angel said to her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you; therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of God.

Jesus as the sinless Son of man, made like the first Adam BEFORE Adam sinned, God was able to FLOW thru THAT Jesus and "turn stones into bread", even as God was "now able to flow thru Peter and John" when this happened:

Acts 3
11 And as the lame man who was healed held Peter and John, all the people ran together to them in the porch that is called Solomon's, greatly wondering.

12 And when Peter saw it, he answered the people, You men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why do you look so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?

Most Christians today walk in a mixture of "soul operation" and "spirit operation", and this mixture varies with each Christian.

Peter and John were SO FULL of faith right after the Lord's resurrection AND ascension, that they (their soul operation) was "able to get completely out of the way" and "God was able to flow through them to this man".

But in Jesus's case, Jesus "always only did what the Father first showed Him", and Jesus NEVER stepped out in His own soul power.

His soul was present and active within Jesus, and at any time Jesus COULD have rejected the counsel of the Holy Spirit of His Father, but Jesus ALWAYS agree with what His Father was telling Him to do next.

So you may not be able to turn stones into bread, but God in Jesus as "the holy thing" that was born of brandnew Holy Spirit in Mary, Jesus could "do it" (although it was really God doing it IN Jesus).

love, Eden
 




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