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Topic: predestination.
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Eden
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posted
oneinchrist said quote:
Hi Eden, I know that I could not command a stone to be turned to bread.
That is because YOU are made "after the similitude (likeness) of Adam" AFTER Adam sinned. So because you have inherited the sinful nature from Adam, YOU cannot turn stones into bread.
But Jesus was not made like you. YOU came up through the Adam and Eve line, with all its sinful and dissipated, weak energy.
But Jesus was made like the first Adam, with BRANDNEW energy that came DIRECTLY from heaven:
Luke 1:35
And the angel said to her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you; therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of God.
Jesus as the sinless Son of man, made like the first Adam BEFORE Adam sinned, God was able to FLOW thru THAT Jesus and "turn stones into bread", even as God was "now able to flow thru Peter and John" when this happened:
Acts 3
11 And as the lame man who was healed held Peter and John, all the people ran together to them in the porch that is called Solomon's, greatly wondering.
12 And when Peter saw it, he answered the people, You men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why do you look so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
Most Christians today walk in a mixture of "soul operation" and "spirit operation", and this mixture varies with each Christian.
Peter and John were SO FULL of faith right after the Lord's resurrection AND ascension, that they (their soul operation) was "able to get completely out of the way" and "God was able to flow through them to this man".
But in Jesus's case, Jesus "always only did what the Father first showed Him", and Jesus NEVER stepped out in His own soul power.
His soul was present and active within Jesus, and at any time Jesus COULD have rejected the counsel of the Holy Spirit of His Father, but Jesus ALWAYS agree with what His Father was telling Him to do next.
So you may not be able to turn stones into bread, but God in Jesus as "the holy thing" that was born of brandnew Holy Spirit in Mary, Jesus could "do it" (although it was really God doing it IN Jesus).
love, Eden
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scythewieldor
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Dear Michael Harrison,
Actually, I think that we pretty much agree.
What I was saying about "keeping my salvation" was out of the statement that I had grown up under an Armenian perspective. As such, my focus was works-oriented and, thus, doomed to joylessness.
The doctrine of predestination, correctly presented, shifted my focus to the grace and sovereignty of God.
Faith that is completely on what God has done and is doing is saving faith that produces very much joy, peace, and righteousness in the Holy Ghost
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oneinchrist
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Hi Eden,
I know that I could not command a stone to be turned to bread.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Eden
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hello, oneinchrist, you wrote quote:
... eventhough Jesus had temptations just like we have, the type of temptations that the devil directed towards Jesus were different than ours in the sense that the devil attempted to try to get Jesus to question who He is and what His purpose was ... so that while Jesus was tempted as we are ... we were not tempted in exactly the same manner as He was.
I don't think that is correct. Satan tried to do exactly the same thing to Jesus as Satan did to Adam in the garden, namely to "get Jesus to act in His own strength and in His own soul abilities".
Thankfully Jesus did not fall for that trap, saying:
John 5:19
Then Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say to you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do: for what things soever He does, these also does the Son likewise.
John 8:28
Then said Jesus to them, When you have lifted up the Son of man, then shall you know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father has taught Me, I speak these things.
Satan asked Jesus (who was hungry) to "turn these stones into bread", even though the Father had not first asked Jesus to "turn these stones into bread". With Jesus, Satan failed because Jesus never acted or "operated" out of His own soul level.
But Satan DID get Adam to operate out of his own soul level instead of bothering to listen to God's instructions first.
So oneinchrist, let me repeat what you wroteoneinchrist, you wrote quote:
... eventhough Jesus had temptations just like we have, the type of temptations that the devil directed towards Jesus were different than ours ...
No, same temptation, but different result.
love, Eden
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oneinchrist
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Hi becauseHElives,
I was hoping that I was not showing Jesus to be like a "robot" Messiah. I believe that His temptations were as real as any temptations that we receive. I just cannot agree that Jesus put off His deity when He came to the earth. I agree that in His humanness He had experienced what man experiences, but I would not agree that in His deity it was ever possible for Him to be overcome by the evil one.... Hebrews 10..."Then I said, 'Behold, I have come--- In the volume of the book it is written of Me---To do Your will, O God.'"
None of us can imagine what it would be like having been in the bosom of the Father for all eternity past and suddenly coming into this world. I am sure that it was a shocker on a much grander scale than that of Adam and Eve when they were cast out of the garden of Eden.
Now the question is......Were temptations a breeze for Jesus because of His deity? Actually, if we think about this for a second we will realize that even though Jesus had temptations just like we have, the type of temptations that the devil directed towards Jesus were different than ours in the sense that the devil attempted to try to get Jesus to question who He is and what His purpose was........so that while Jesus was tempted as we are..........we were not tempted in exactly the same manner as He was. In other words, the devil was not going to set a promiscuous woman in Jesus' path thinking that was going to do the job. The devils knew who Jesus was, and they devised their tactics accordingly......so in that sense there were quite alluring and attractive temptations set before Him. I guess we cannot humanly fathom the difficulty of these temptations for Jesus. On the one hand I would not say that they were so easy that they provided absolutely no discomfort to Jesus, but on the other hand I would not say that they were so difficult that Jesus was really fortunate to remain sinless.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Glory belongs to Him
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becauseHElives / Michael Harrison
Really like your last replies! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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If you ever get so hungry for God that you are in pursuit of Him, He will do things for you that He won't do for anybody else.
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Eden
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Michael Harrison wrote to scythewieldor: quote:
What do you mean that you couldn't 'keep' yourself saved? I know that I digress from OSAS, and do it fervently. However, I do not believe that once one is saved, that he 'loses' his salvation in this life. Where I believe that OSAS fails is that if one fails to trust Jesus for his or her salvation, and he or she 'takes it for granted', then at the judgment he or she may 'lose' what they thought they had. For scripture declares that there will be those who are 'appointed' their portion - with the unbelievers. This clearly means that they are believers who do not measure up.
Actually to me the interesting part of your comment above was (in my paraphrase) that "these Christians do not know that they did not measure up until the judgment day".
But what about this? Doesn't the Bible say,[quote]Hebrews 9
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment?
But you are right, it DOES seem as if these believers make it right up to the Judgment Seat of Christ and only THEN do they find out that they deserve a "place with the hypocrites"?
love, Eden
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Michael Harrison
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scytheweildor??? What do you mean that you couldn't 'keep' yourself saved? I know that I digress from OSAS, and do it fervently. However, I do not believe that once one is saved, that he 'loses' his salvation in this life. Where I believe that OSAS fails is that if one fails to trust Jesus for his or her salvation, and he or she 'takes it for granted', then at the judgment he or she may 'lose' what they thought they had. For scripture declares that there will be those who are 'appointed' their portion - with the unbelievers. This clearly means that they are believers who do not measure up.
Now we know that it is not by works, so 'measuring up' is a curious way to say it if one does not 'earn' it. But there is a responsible 'participation' which the beliver engages in, which 'nets' tasting of the powers of the world to come. For, "Whatsoever is not of faith, is sin." (Rom 14:23) There is participation unto salvation. It is not as though one 'gets saved', and then they 'have it', and then they can go on about their business. For it is about Jesus! It is about relationship. It takes two to Tango, and if one Tangos alone, he is then taking for granted what Jesus has done for him, just as did the poor guy who got only one talent. (His was taken from him, remember.)
Like I said, all men have the opportunity to know Christ. This cannot be possible if some were predestined to know Him, and others were outright predestined for hell. And I assure you that there will be people in hell who didn't have to be there, because they thought they were 'predestined' to go there. That ought to break somebodies heart like the breath being knocked out of them.
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becauseHElives
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hi Daniel, others
Hebrews 4:15-16
"For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathise with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need."
"How can Yahweh understand me? Has He ever been through what I have been through?" We have sometimes the picture of an unapproachable, remote God, a God who is far from life and reality. A God whom our difficulties and temptations cannot touch. Well, the Yahshua, the One in whom "dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9) has been through all this. He has been through all that you may be in right now, through all the temptations that may try you and the storms that may hit you. Because He has been through He can understand you. He can fully sympathies the pain, the infirmities and the desires of the human soul. Yahshua sympathies right now what may have hurt you. Yahshua sympathies right now what may have afflicted you. Yahshua sympathies right now all your infirmities, all your problems, every tear you may have shed and every anxiety you may have. Two chapters earlier, in Hebrews 2:16-18 we read:
Hebrews 2:16-18
"For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in every respect, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to Yahweh, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted."
(NKJV-KJV)
Yahshua can help those who are tempted, because He also went through the same temptations. He does not look at you from afar, without knowing how you may feel. He knows it very well. He was made like us in every respect we read. Some have the picture of a Messiah-robot that came, did the work and left. We need however the picture of a Messiah that was made like us in every respect. We need the picture of the MAN Yahshua . In I Timothy 2:5 we read:
I Timothy 2:5
"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Yahshua ,"
The mediator between Yahweh and man, our High Priest and great advocate is One that was made like us IN EVERY RESPECT: THE MAN YAHSHUA. See that the Word of Yahweh, speaking for our advocate, does not choose to call Him as Son of God, or Lord or Saviour or with any other of the titles He has and is. Instead it calls Him MAN – thus stretching the fact that the one that mediates for men, in not a stranger to them but one that was made like them in every respect. He has suffered like men, He was tempted like men and therefore He can sympathies men and mediate for them. "For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham" we read. Have you wept? He wept too. Were you betrayed? He was betrayed too. Were you hungry and thirsty? He was hungry and thirsty too. Were you treated unjustly? He was treated unjustly too. Have you suffered pain? He has suffered pain too. Have you been in agony? He has been in agony too. Have you lost loved ones? He has lost loved ones too. Were you rejected? He was rejected too. Yahshua , "THE MAN Messiah", can perfectly understands you for He was made like you, not only in some points BUT IN EVERY RESPECT, the Scripture says.
Moving further on the same topic in Philippians 2:5-11 we read:
Philippians 2:5-11
"Let this mind be in you which was also in Yahshua , who, being in the form of Yahweh, did not consider it robbery to be equal with Yahweh, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore Yahweh also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Yahshua Master, to the glory of Yahweh the Father."
Yahshua , though He existed in the form of Yahweh, He humbled Himself and He came in the fashion of men. He took the form of a bondservant. He was made like us - with the difference that He was born and stayed without sin – and therefore He can understand us. You could meet Him in the park. You could eat with Him. Then He was a carpenter. Toda
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
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hi, scythewieldor, you wrote re the measure of faith given, that the verse seems to say that this faith was given to members of the church, and I agree that it could be interpreted that way.
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given to me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Eden
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scythewieldor
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Dear Michael Harrison,
Predestination is part of the Gospel.
quote:
Ep 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Notice that we were "chosen in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love". It is much more assuring than foreknowlege.
quote:
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 ¶ What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
I grew up Armenian. I was ready to kill myself because I could not keep myself saved. I told God that, if it meant that I could go to hell early rather than stay and be a serious moral problem to my kith and kin and go to hell later, I might as well blow my brains out.
Then, I heard somebody say -maybe a guy named Sprewell(?)- that predestination does not become an excuse to sin for those who trust in the grace of God. In fact, to know that God has predestined one for salvation helps that one to understand the grace of God in that there was no work that one could produce that would get God's favor. In that sense, the knowledge that one is chosen for salvation makes the Saviour very precious, indeed.
Jesus, not sinful flesh, becomes the focus of the truly saved.
Later, a kind 5-point Calvinist (kind ones are very rare in my experience) showed me how Jesus said that He had chosen us rather than vice versa.
The helmet of salvation has become super-glued and duct-taped to my head. And I am forward to tell people about a Saviour who is a Saviour, indeed. My Jesus doesn't need my help. That is a Saviour worthy of my service.
With that kind of gracious salvation at work, it is easy to keep my eyes on Him more and more. On the other hand, I spend less and less attention on things that cause me to stumble.
The assurance of the extension of the peace of God to me makes me a more profitable ambassador of Christ while it, also, makes me one who leaves fewer stumbling-bocks in his wake.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Eden,
The answer is in the part of this scripture where he defines the group.
quote:
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given to me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.
God has given faith to every man that is in the church. Since faith is the gift of God to every man that is in the church, no one should think too highly of himself. Rather, be sober. The measure of faith that you exercise (whatever it is), in every case, it is the gift of God.
When God says that not all men have faith, He should know. Therefore, in any scripture which seems to be contradictory, one must look for the wording that displays the loophole God left Himself.
However, one can not create a loophole out of one's own understanding. That would be adding to the word of God, and orthodoxy requires that we acknowledge that the canon of scripture is fixed.
We can not add. We can not remove.
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Eden
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scythewieldor wrote quote:
He does not give faith to everyone.
So what about this verse?
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given to me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.
thanks. Eden
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Michael Harrison
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Why would anyone trouble himself with it? Let God be God and do His thing. In the mean time we should keep it simple under the banner of His name.
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Are we supposed to analyze it? Are we trying to help He who alone is able?
FWIW Someone on the radio echoed this just the other day. He spoke of how that God fore'knew' who would choose Him. He did not choose for them. So I say, think of it as casting dice; eight, ten or fifteen of them. Imagine that when you cast them you know which ones will land with the 'three' facing upwards. But you didn't coerce them! God knows. So that would be an interpretation of 'forknew', which would be different than 'determining'.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
I'm late into this thread. I hope you will be gracious to me if what I write is TOO much like someone else's post.
It seems to me that we must have free will. However, I believe that God has predestined the ones to whom He will give faith.
quote:
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
He does not give faith to everyone.
quote:
2Th 3:1 ¶ Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:
2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
Faith in Jesus, the Son of God resurrected from the dead and Lord of all, allows man to access God's grace which overcomes ALL the negative product of free will.
If this is so, we choose how much we will love each other. That determines the degree to which faith replaces doubt in our hearts. And the removal of doubt allows us to enjoy so much more.
quote:
Ga 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 ¶ For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
When we refuse to love each other, God can express His sovereignty in a way that is unpleasant to us.
quote:
1Co 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
33 Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.
So, God expresses sovereignty by choosing the ones that will receive faith. He expresses sovereignty, again, by chastening the disobedient partaker of the Lord's body through sickness and death.
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oneinchrist
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Hi Eden,
I am proposing that Adam was created imperfect----meaning not an exact replica of God, but with a gift of unique self expression which has the POTENTIAL to turn on God. To have the POTENTIAL to turn on God does not mean that you are unfairly leaned in that direction. I hope you understand me better.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Eden
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hi, oneinchrist, you said, quote:
Even before the fall, I believe that Adam and Eve had the "inward aspect of the inclination to sin". That is something that I do not believe that Jesus in His deity ever had.
From the position of soul or personality and mind and will and emotions, Adam can look to his "right" to the spirit of man and ALWAYS get his information from that direction.
Or, Adam can look to the left to operating his own life apart from God.
But Adam himself is in the "neutral" spot, just as in a car transmission. From "neutral", Adam can go "right" or "left".
Now, you said, quote:
Even before the fall, I believe that Adam and Eve had the "inward aspect of the inclination to sin". That is something that I do not believe that Jesus in His deity ever had.
You are proposing that God created Adam at the "neutral" position, but "leaning in the direction of the left" EVEN BEFORE Adam's life has even started.
Such a "leaning tower of Pisa" would be "very unfair to Adam" and would "prove nothing" if God has already CREATED Adam with a "propensity to lean to the left or operating his own life apart from God."
That would prove nothing. The only way God can have proved anything is to create Adam in the absolute "neutral" position from which Adam can "freely choose the direction HE wants to go into today" (before he chose to go into the left channel.
love, Adam
"uh, I mean, Eden"
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Michael Harrison
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It is another one of those difficult questions, which are hard on the mind. It is like pondering how someone cannot have a beginning.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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oneinchrist
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Hi becauseHelives,
I have heard a possible explanation for what you are presenting..............
From the standpoint of the devil, the temptations were surely intended to cause Jesus to sin...........but it could be that from the standpoint of God that the temptations were allowed primarily to prove that Jesus is truely the Son of God. It is interesting to note that the Holy Spirit is who led Jesus to the tempter , the devil didnt just creep up on Jesus and take Him by surprise.
From the stand-point of the believer, I think that we are more drawn in by the willingness of Jesus to die than by His ability to overcome the devils ploys. Some people will dare to mock over the fact that Jesus was sinless, but fewer people dare to mock over the fact that He loved us enough to suffer a terrible death on the cross.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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becauseHElives
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but Daniel, if Yahshua did not have he ability to sin, His temptations mean nothing to the believer....
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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oneinchrist
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Hi Eden,
Even before the fall, I believe that Adam and Eve had the "inward aspect of the inclination to sin". That is something that I do not believe that Jesus in His deity ever had.
If Adam and Eve had not had the "inward aspect of the inclination to sin" they would have resisted temptation perfectly when temptation arose.
I see the problem that this poses for the way that you view this situation. You are asking......how could they have been perfect if they had the inner inclination to sin? That would go back to what I was trying to say earlier an that is that I do not believe that they were created perfect just like God, but that they were created imperfect which would mean that God created man who with the gift of unique self-expression had the potential for a dark side.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Eden
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oneinchrist wrote quote:
There has been much theological debate over Christ's ability to sin, and over three possibilities: (1) Christ could have sinned, but did not; (2) Christ was able not to sin; (3) Christ was not able to sin. The crux or heart of the debate centers in what constitutes real temptation.
Regarding the part that I bolded, that is even the amazing part. Consider that the first Adam and Eve decided to be tempted "even within the perfect environment of the garden life with God."
Now, please understand, that Jesus was NOT MADE LIKE YOU AND ME because WE have come up AFTER the first Adam had fallen, but Jesus was made just like the first Adam before the first Adam fell.
So consider then, that the second Adam Jesus had to face all the havoc and cruelty and envy and theft and forgery and lies that Adam's sin of "going his own way" had caused, and yet this second Adam Jesus was able to remain sinless up to His death, even in the face of "not being provoked by all this havoc". Now THAT was a far greater accomplishment by the second Adam.
So to repeat what you said, oneinchristoneinchrist wrote quote:
(1) Christ could have sinned, but did not; (2) Christ was able not to sin; (3) Christ was not able to sin. The crux or heart of the debate centers in what constitutes real temptation.
Even with all that "temptation", or perhaps even when JESUS SAW what "going it alone had done to the world", perhaps it was EASY for Jesus after that to "stay with God istead"?
love, Eden
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Eden
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oneinchrist wrote quote:
What I am presently struggling with is the question of whether or not Jesus could have sinned? I am not sure how deity could sin?
Jesus PUT OFF His Deity and "became man for us". As "man" or as "the Son of man", Jesus had the potential to sin, just like the first Adam had the potential to sin before he sinned in the garden of Eden. Jesus LAID DOWN His Deity to "become the Son of man".
After Jesus rose from the dead, He met Mary M. in the tomb garden and said to her, "Do not touch Me, for I am not yet ascended to the Father".
Then that same day Jesus ascended to the Father to take the precious blood up there to show Him, and from that moment Jesus was no longer the "Son of man" but was now again the "Son of God".
That same evening, Jesus came back from heaven "as the Son of God" and showed Himself to over 500 people until Jesus ASCENDED as the Son of God from Bethany on the mount of Olives, and "the clouds took Him up", and the disciples "returned to Jerusalem rejoicing" at what they had seen.
Jesus died on the cross as "the Son of man", but Jesus rose from the grave and ascended that same day as the Son of God again.
love, Eden
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Eden
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Hi, oneinchrist, the following comments were made after reading your FIRST para ONLY. I will read the rest later. You wrote quote:
I cannot agree that Jesus ever put off His deity. If that was the case then how could he have perfectly resisted temptation?
oneinchrist, God created the first Adam and Eve perfect in that Adam and Eve were created with a free will to choose whatever they wanted to do.
Adam and Eve could continue to listen to God's Spirit for the best answers on earth, or Adam and Eve could say, "Hey God, Lucifer showed me that I don't really need you, God, to tell me what to do next, I can figure this out myself quite well, thank you."
Before the first Adam decided to go his own way with his wife, without God, Jesus proved that a man "made just like the first Adam" COULD, COULD REMAIN FAITHFUL TO GOD from birth to death.
Now, admittedly Jesus died around age 33 and that we call "the sinless life," and it was, which actually brings me to an interesting point, what if Jesus had lived, say, 75 years? ![[youpi]](graemlins/youpi.gif)
But to get back to what you said, oneinchrist, you wrote quote:
I cannot agree that Jesus ever put off His deity. If that was the case then how could he have perfectly resisted temptation?
IMO Jesus had to be "an indentical being in capacity" as the first Adam so that Jesus could ATONE for what the first Adam did. ONLY people of EQUAL RANK can atone for each other.
And note that Jesus is SPECIFICALLY called "the last Adam". If Jesus was NO Adam, then that title could not have been applied by the Holy Spirit to Jesus in the Scriptures.
But Jesus was NOT the "billionth" Adam by the 1st century A.D., Jesus was also "the second man", while the first Adam was "the first man".
Why the second man and not the billionth man? Because there have been ONLY TWO ADAMS HAVE EVER EXISTED WHO DID NOT SIN (BEFORE THE FALL IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN).
So Jesus was a "total Adam", or what the Bible calls "the Son of man", "made in the likeness of men".
love, Eden
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oneinchrist
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Hi again Eden,
I cannot agree that Jesus ever put off His deity. If that was the case then how could he have perfectly resisted temptation?
I found a really good section on this subject in my bible dictionary. It is under the heading TEMPTATION OF CHRIST and under the subtitle THE NATURE OF CHRISTS SINLESSNESS. This is what it states..........
There has been much theological debate over Christ's ability to sin, posse peccare, and over three possibilities: (1) Christ could have sinned , but did not; (2) Christ was able not to sin; (3) Christ was not able to sin. The crux or heart of the debate centers in what constitutes real temptation. If Christ could not have sinned, did He then ever really face a genuine temptation? If on the other hand, in order to make the temptation real, He could have sinned, is this not blasphemy? How could Christ sin since He is God? Even if we choose the second alternative and say Christ was able not to sin, do we not then imply He was able also to sin and thus still impugn His inherent holiness?
The dilemma can be solved if we first recognize that, though according to the human nature no man would be able not to sin, Christs human nature along with His divine belongs to the one divine person and is ruled by that person. It is the divine person of the Christ who hated sin and could not countenance it in His divine nature, who out of love suffered temptation in all points like as we without succumbing to sin (Heb 4:15). In the human nature Christ could have sinned, but because of His divine person He could not. Therefore we do not say either that Christ was able to sin, or that Christ was able not to sin, but that Christ could not sin. END.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Eden
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hello, oneinchrist, let me say first that I appreciate learning more about the Bible by having these discussions with you. You wrote to Eden quote:
When you say that Adam and Eve had the same nature as Jesus before the fall that means to me that they were deity...
Well, actually Jesus was Deity as the Son of God, but He "put off His deity to become the Son of man":
2 Philippians 2
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.
Eden here: As the Son of God, Jesus was in the form of God and He thought it not robbery to be equal with God. But then:
The Holy Spirit came on Mary and with Mary's permission, the Holy Spirit implanted a God-fertilized egg of Jesus into Mary's womb and this Jesus was born in Bethlehem.
Now Jesus is in Israel as the Son of man, who like the first Adam, has to live a life completely dependent for input on God the Father.
John 8:28
Then said Jesus to them, When you have lifted up the Son of man, then shall you know that I am He, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father has taught me, I speak these things.
The first Adam and Eve broke this compact to "only do what the Father taught them or asked them to do", but the last Adam Jesus ALWAYS kept this agreement with the Father from birth to death.
Hebrews 4:15
For we have not a high priest who cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but who was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
To repeat what you said, oneinchrist quote:
When you say that Adam and Eve had the same nature as Jesus before the fall that means to me that they were deity...
No Adam and Eve were not divine. Because "God so loved the world", Jesus made Himself willingly into a second Adam so that His Father God "could solve His problem" of "one Adam for one Adam".
Adam and Eve were not divine. The Son of God stooped down in His mercy to become the Son of man for us.
2 Philippians 2
7 But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and He was made in the likeness of men.
love, Eden
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Eden
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Good words, Michael Harrison.
love, Eden
"His Love is always the same,
but is never a ball & chain"
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Michael Harrison
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Onenchrist: His nature was their life! His life was their perfection. Else their perfection was of works. And we know that Adam and Eve, of all people, were not justified by works. They didn't have to do anything - except not to eat of the forbidden fruit! Yet they had every choice available to them. So we see how easy it was for them in the garden.
And this verse further illustrates how easy they had it.
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground [by the sweat of their brow] from whence he was taken.
And here, this illustrates how that they 'lost the innocence'. That means that they 'fell'. And since they fell, they 'broke' with perfection. In other words, God wasn't Lord over their lives any more. For to be evil simply means, 'to do it on your own'. After the fall they had to make it [do it] on their own.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
But Jesus came that we may have life, and have it more abundantly! That is restoration to the Garden. That means that we don't do it on our own. PRAISE GOD! But we have to submit to it, which means to repent! Then we can again have HIS perfection, which translates to having HIS will done in our lives. Amen!
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oneinchrist
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Hi again Eden,
I was just visiting a site called "Let Us Reason Ministries" and the title of the subject called "Could Jesus have Sinned?"
They state that.......
--while Jesus had the choice to sin, He did not have the ability. The humanity of Christ could never be separate from or supported from His deity.
--He was not able to go against Gods will because He did not have the nature of sin to have that possibility.
--the purpose of the temptations was to demonstrate He could not sin and was in fact the Son of God.
I just thought that this may provide as some additional perspective on the subject.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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oneinchrist
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Hi again Eden,
ok ,let me get something straight. When you say that Adam and Eve had the same nature as Jesus before the fall that means to me that they were deity.........and that I cannot agree with. Deity is not created. Deity always has been and always will be eternal.
What I am presently struggling with is the question of whether or not Jesus could have sinned? I am not sure how deity could sin? I do not think that the fact that Jesus was faced with temptations means that He could have sinned.
This is what it states in my bible dictionary under the definition of CHRIST, SINLESSNESS OF......
This expression refers to Christs perfect freedom from sin not only in outward aspect of acts of sin but also in its "inward aspect of an inclination to sin".
It is this perfect freedom from the "inward aspect of an inclination to sin" that I do not believe that Adam and Eve ever possessed. I strongly believe that this perfect freedom is associated with His deity.
I am here to learn with you.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Eden
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oneinchrist wrote: quote:
Eden, just so I understand you correctly.......you are not saying that Adam and Eve were at one time as perfect as Jesus? In other words that Adam and Eve had the same nature as Jesus before the fall?
I would turn that statement the other way around. Jesus in His capacity as the Son of Man was made just like Adam and Eve before the fall.
Note that in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul uses 2 interesting terms, the first Adam, and the last Adam:
1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
And Paul also used the following terms, the first man and the second man:
1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
Jesus was called "the last Adam" because Jesus "had to be just like the first Adam" in order for God to "undo" what the first Adam had done.
That is, it would not be "fair" if Jesus had "greater capacities" (as the Son of Man) than the first Adam had, because then people could say, "well, Jesus was able to not sin because Jesus was made superior to the first Adam".
Therefore God had to make "the last Adam" with exactly the same capacities as the first Adam, to PROVE that man DOES NOT HAVE TO SIN, and Jesus, as the last Adam, passed that test.
As to the phrases "the first man" and "the second man", why was Jesus called the "second" man? Because, after all, by the 1st century A.D., Jesus was probably the "one billionth" man (according to the flesh).
But no, the Bible calls Jesus "the second man" and calls Adam "the first man". Why? Because there have been ONLY TWO ADAMS so far.
The first Adam or "first man" was Adam BEFORE THE FALL, and the second "Adam" or "second man" was Jesus who was "made just like the first Adam before the first Adam fell".
So in His aspect as the Son of man, Jesus was made and HAD TO be made just like the first Adam, and so far there have been "only two Adams".
This is also the meaning of the following two verses:
Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Philippians 2:7
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.
As long as Jesus was still alive, He only acted as the last Adam and as the second man. Jesus did not become the Son of God again until after Jesus resurrected, ascended, and took the blood of the last Adam and of the second man up into heaven for a testimony before God.
Later that same day, Jesus returned from heaven to earth, but now Jesus was the Son of God and no longer was the last Adam or the second man.
love, Eden
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Eden
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Hi, oneinchrist, I'll get to the other part of your post later, but you wrote quote:
Because of the nature of Jesus, He was unable to sin......
Of course Jesus was able to sin; He just never chose to sin. Therefore, unlike Adam and Eve, Jesus REMAINED sinless. And therefore the Bible says "He LEARNED obedience".
love, Eden
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oneinchrist
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Hi Michael,
I am making this post just so I can have the 100th post on this topic----LOL just kidding
Because of the nature of Jesus, He was unable to sin....... but Adam and Eve on the other hand did not come into this world without the ability to sin. How could Adam and Eve have had the same nature as Jesus then?
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Michael Harrison
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Of course they had the same nature. Why do you think that the change in nature was described as 'the fall'?
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oneinchrist
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Hi Eden,
Just so I understand you correctly.......you are not saying that Adam and Eve were at one time as perfect as Jesus? In other words that Adam and Eve had the same nature as Jesus before the fall??
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Eden
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oneinchrist wrote quote:
Although I still can understand why someone may question what one means when they use the words "perfect beings", so it may have to be explained to them ... especially considering that you hear a lot of people casually say that "nobody is perfect".
That bolded last statement IS now true: after the fall of Adam and Eve, nobody IS perfect anymore, except Jesus was.
But Jesus did not come up through the Adam and Eve line, other than using Mary as His surrogate mother-womb. That's why Jesus could still be perfect, but since Adam and Eve sinned, no one of the Adam and Eve line has been perfect anymore.
love, Eden
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Michael Harrison
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We are only perfect through faith, and that is because faith 'is', trusting the one who is perfect, and who 'is' our substitute. That is why HE said that all you need is the faith 'in size', of a grain of mustard. Infinitesimal! Because it is not we who are perfect. But we have adequate faith to trust in Him who is, by faith, to therefore benefit by Him who is.
And we benefit by HIS life. HE is the bread of life. His life is the bread. Perfection enters us through faith. The 'Bread' of life is our perfection. Perfection is when we come to the end of ourselves, and through faith, HE begins. It begins when we are 'allowing' Him, and 'as' we are allowing Him to be our bread (that is, as we receive Him).
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oneinchrist
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Hi Eden,
I had a feeling that is the direction that you would come from on your response to me. I would certainly agree that man was created just the way that God intended, not that He had somehow got it wrong.......I had hoped that you were not thinking that was what I was implying......that is why I had clarified what I meant by perfect and imperfect. I think you do understand my explanation and I understand yours. I agree with you that God had created us perfect "beings" in the sense that we are made exactly as He intended. Althought I still can understand why someone may question what one means when they use the words "perfect beings", so it may have to be explained to them.
......especially considering that you hear a lot of people casually say that "nobody is perfect".
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Eden
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hi, oneinchrist, you wrote quote:
Man(6) was not created as a divine being(7) in the "express image of God". Man(6) was created in the image of God. Neither was man was created without the capacity to sin, therefore, He is not perfect like God.
Well, if you are now going to "compare man to God" than man is of "not as perfect as God is".
But man is not God. Man is man. Man was created a perfect man, with all the abilities to remain a perfect man, but also with all the abilities to become an imperfect man.
But orinally God "saw that man was good"; what man did thereafter, is what perfect man decided to do:
Ezekiel 28:15
You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, until iniquity was found in you.
Strong's Concordance
Ezekiel 28:15 Thou [wast] perfect 8549 in thy ways 1870 from the day 3117 that thou wast created 1254, till iniquity 5766 was found 4672 in thee.
perfect 8549
complete, whole, entire, sound
a) complete, whole, entire
b) whole, sound, healthful
c) complete, entire (of time)
d) sound, wholesome, unimpaired, innocent, having integrity
e) what is complete or entirely in accord with truth and fact (neuter adj/subst)
"KJV — without blemish 44, perfect 18, upright 8, without spot 6, uprightly 4, whole 4, sincerely 2, complete 1, full 1, misc 3"
To repeat what you said, oneinchrist, quote:
Man(6) was not created as a divine being(7) in the "express image of God". Man(6) was created in the image of God. Neither was man created without the capacity to sin, therefore, He is not perfect like God.
Man was made a perfect man, not a perfect God.
love, Eden
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oneinchrist
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Hi Eden,
I think that you might not understand how I am drawing that conclusion. First of all, we know that God is perfect(7), not only because of His inability to sin ,but also because of His "divine" nature. Man(6) was not created as a divine being(7) in the "express image of God". Man(6) was created in the image of God. Neither was man was created without the capacity to sin, therefore, He is not perfect like God. Now by the law of deductive reasoning I believe it safe to conclude that we were created "imperfect" ..........and this would not have to mean that what God did was not "good". What may be "good" to God may not seem that way to man depending on how man looks at it. Lucifer(6) didnt seem to be very happy about what God(7) called "good". "Good" was not "good" enough for him......and we know where that led.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Eden
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hi, oneinchrist, you wrote quote:
Gods just like Him or He was going to make us imperfect which would allow for self-expression which permits exercise of a will.
Regarding the part I bolded, where in the Bible does it say that "God has made us IMPERFECT"? My Bible says that on each Creative Day, God said that what He has created was "good":
Genesis 1
31 God saw all that He had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.
Strong's Concordance: good
Gen 1:31 And God 430 saw 7200 every thing that 834 he had made 6213 , and, behold, [it was] very 3966 good 2896. And the evening 6153 and the morning 1242 were the sixth 8345 day 3117.
2896 towb:
1) good, pleasant, agreeable
a) pleasant, agreeable (to the senses)
b) pleasant (to the higher nature)
c) good, excellent (of its kind)
d) good, rich, valuable in estimation
e) good, appropriate, becoming
f) better (comparative)
g) glad, happy, prosperous (of man's sensuous nature)
h) good understanding (of man's intellectual nature)
i) good, kind, benign
j) good, right (ethical)
Where does it say in the Bible that God "made us imperfect", oneinchrist?
love, Eden
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pinkhatbob said quote:
Edan I'm sorry I entered into dialog with you. I don't follow any of your thinking. Make any comments about my post if you wish but I can't reason with you. Sorry I got sucked into it.
Ok. Be blessed. Eden
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Michael Harrison
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Yes! For consideration I offer that the person who is truly surrendered to God by faith is 'delivered' from the robotic state, not translated into it. For the Christian personality is free to a degree which it cannot be without surrender. So it is an angel of light confusion which is cast upon someone who thinks that we become 'robots' when we let God be in control.
quote:
We are the clay and He is the potter.
Indeed! But clay doesn't have free will. We do. And here is how it works. God will not overrule our free will. Therefore for all practical purposes HE is not the Potter, if we do not yield.
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oneinchrist
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Why is it that there are some people who think that they must conclude that God is not God if He has allowed man to have self-expression which permits the use of a free-will? Free-will does not mean that a man can exercise control over God, free-will means that man can choose not to align his will with that of God....thus remaining in rebellion towards God.
and
Why is it that there are some people who think that the opposite of having self- expression is a robot? I think the opposite of self-expression is to be God. Either God was going to make us Gods just like Him or he was going to make us imperfect which would allow for self-expression which permits exercise of a will.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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pinkhatbob
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Edan I'm sorry I entered into dialog with you. I don't follow any of your thinking. Make any comments about my post if you wish but I can't reason with you. Sorry I got sucked into it.
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Eden
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pinkhatbob wrote, quote:
ON the subject of robots. Robots have a program that they follow right? Ok lets look at these verses.
Ps.37:23The steps of a [good] man are directed and established by the Lord when He delights in his way [and He busies Himself with his every step].
Prov. 20:24 Man's steps are ordered by the Lord. How then can a man understand his way?
But in another place it says that the "steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD":
Psalm 37:23
The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and He delights in his way (or he delighst in His way).
pinkhatbob, you also wrote quote:
Jer 10:23 O Lord [pleads Jeremiah in the name of the people], I know that [the determination of] the way of a man is not in himself; it is not in man [even in a strong man or in a man at his best] to direct his [own] steps.
Well, yes, Jeremiah is stating the obvious, that when Adam and Eve decided to operate their own bodies from their own soul level, without any further input from their spirit--and thus no input from the Spirit of God--Jeremiah stated the obvious when he wrote: quote:
Jer 10:23 O Lord [pleads Jeremiah in the name of the people], I know that [the determination of] the way of a man is not in himself; it is not in man [even in a strong man or in a man at his best] to direct his [own] steps.
But that does not mean that today's "Adam" and "Eve" are clay!!!
It merely means that today's "Adam" and "Eve" are operating "as if" the earth belonged to them and "as if" the earth is now their own domain, not caring anymore "about God", for "this earth is our place now and don't no one try to take it from us", type of thing.
pinkhatbob, lastly you said quote:
We are the clay and He is the potter.
Not all all. The non-Christians are still very active on the earth and are a force to reckon with, even owning nuclear weapons.
Ultimately it is true that God will accomplish ALL His purposes, but that does NOT mean that man "is the clay" as if "man only does what God makes man do".
No, it means that non-Christian man continues to sin and operate his own body just like Adam and Eve did "way back there", and for that they will be punished.
Because the descendants of "Adam and Eve" are living, loose-running entities on the earth, they are an actual force that God and Jesus will have to reckon with at Jesus's Second Coming:
Chapter)
Revelation 19:15
And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and He shall rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
God and Jesus are more powerful than these rebellious Adamites and Eva-ites, but they are a real, self-thinking force to be reckoned with.
The Bible shows they will lose, but it will be a real battle nonetheless; the nations have arrived at this season by "doing their own thinking", NOT by "being the clay and God is the potter".
God the potter has closely "followed the progess of what the nations are doing", but for the most part, the nations are "making their own decisions right now WITHOUT GOD".
Indeed, the Bible shows that only bornagain Chrisians are allowed to "hear from God again thru the Holy Spirit", but the rest of the non-Christian world, they are making ALL their decisions WITHOUT GOD.
How then are they "the clay" and God is the "potter"? It is more like the "pot has been made by the potter" but now the potter is being put to the use for which it was made.
In "human" terms, now the human is "running loose on the earth", as in "independent entity", in "enmity" with God until the Second Coming of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
The clay is making its own decisions WITHOUT the Potter, and making LOTS of decisions without the Potter, to boot. "Do not be surprised, 'They MUST first be born again'."
"For flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God."
love, Eden
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pinkhatbob
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ON the subject of robots. Robots have a program that they follow right? Ok lets look at these verses.
Ps.37:23The steps of a [good] man are directed and established by the Lord when He delights in his way [and He busies Himself with his every step].
Prov. 20:24 Man's steps are ordered by the Lord. How then can a man understand his way?
Jer 10:23 O Lord [pleads Jeremiah in the name of the people], I know that [the determination of] the way of a man is not in himself; it is not in man [even in a strong man or in a man at his best] to direct his [own] steps.
We are the clay and He is the potter.
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pinkhatbob
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quote "The disciples asked "when did we do these things TO YOU", because Jesus had talked AS IF the disciples had done these things TO JESUS, and of course Jesus had been "all-sufficient" and had not needed that kind of help from His disciples.
So the disciples were confused; therefore Jesus explained it further that He meant "if you do it for these the least of my disciples", etc., and then the disciples understood what Jesus meant.
So Jesus AT NO TIME implied that "they couldn't even remember that they had done these things" as if they were "unconscious robots". After Jesus had explained what He meant, then the disciples understood that Jesus referred to "good works toward others", not toward Jesus.
love, Eden "
Whats this have to do with my referances to scripture? I'm not following you.
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Eden
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hello, pinkhatbob, thanks for joining in the discussion. You wrote quote:
If the things we do in this world makes a difference to the Lords decision process than what happened with the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46? Neither group could remember when they had done the least of these things. If we go about doing these things with a concious effort to fullfill this portion of scripture, than we will be able to say to Him that we did these things, but this is not the case. We reply to Him when did we do these things. So my point is what is the difference between the sheep and the goats.
The disciples asked "when did we do these things TO YOU", because Jesus had talked AS IF the disciples had done these things TO JESUS, and of course Jesus had been "all-sufficient" and had not needed that kind of help from His disciples.
So the disciples were confused; therefore Jesus explained it further that He meant "if you do it for these the least of my disciples", etc., and then the disciples understood what Jesus meant.
So Jesus AT NO TIME implied that "they couldn't even remember that they had done these things" as if they were "unconscious robots". After Jesus had explained what He meant, then the disciples understood that Jesus referred to "good works toward others", not toward Jesus.
love, Eden
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pinkhatbob
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I would like to put my two cents in on the predestination topic which I'm in agreement with. If the things we do in this world makes a difference to the Lords decision process than what happened with the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46? Neither group could remember when they had done the least of these things. If we go about doing these things with a concious effort to fullfill this portion of scripture, than we will be able to say to Him that we did these things, but this is not the case. We reply to Him when did we do these things. So my point is what is the difference between the sheep and the goats. I understand it to be the predistination of God for the elect (sheep). After all our best righteous acts are as filthy rags to the Lord. Again if that is the case what can we do to be saved? Beleive on the Lord Jesus Christ, Amen, but what if this good news is hidden from those who are in a state of perishing? How can those who are perishing believe in something they neighter can hear or see because it is hidden from them? I'll close with this section of scripture:
"2 Cor. 4:1 THEREFORE, SINCE we do hold and engage in this ministry by the mercy of God [granting us favor, benefits, opportunities, and especially salvation], we do not get discouraged (spiritless and despondent with fear) or become faint with weariness and exhaustion.
2We have renounced disgraceful ways (secret thoughts, feelings, desires and underhandedness, the methods and arts that men hide through shame); we refuse to deal craftily (to practice trickery and cunning) or to adulterate or handle dishonestly the Word of God, but we state the truth openly (clearly and candidly). And so we commend ourselves in the sight and presence of God to every man's conscience.
3But even if our Gospel (the glad tidings) also be hidden (obscured and covered up with a veil that hinders the knowledge of God), it is hidden [only] to those who are perishing and obscured [only] to those who are spiritually dying and veiled [only] to those who are lost.
4For the god of this world has blinded the unbelievers' minds [that they should not discern the truth], preventing them from seeing the illuminating light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ (the Messiah), Who is the Image and Likeness of God.
5For what we preach is not ourselves but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves [merely] as your servants (slaves) for Jesus' sake.
Posts: 4 | Registered: Oct 2008
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