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Topic: predestination.
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The Beauty of Holiness777
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posted
Amen Eden and Daniel well said! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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In God I'am Complete.
I am a "Spiritual Being" living in a physical body.
{Prayer - a force that reaches people and places when we can't}
Posts: 192 | From: God's Universe | Registered: Sep 2008
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi Eden,
I totally agree that its a "loving" authority that people are rejecting.
That is why I believe that our witness should always display love also.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Eden
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hi, oneinchrist, regarding your post directly above this one, I agree with the first paragraph, and as to the second paragraph, that they mostly object to being under the authority of Jesus, that is probably right. The response is probably something like: "I don't need anybody to be authority over me, I can do just fine myself, thank you".
Of course, interestingly, is that "authority" is so sweet and kind and smart and solicitous and helpful, that "only a fool" would not let this resurrected Jesus "help them with their life".
But no doubt, ignorance of what the Bible actually offers them, and their own pride is what keeps them from accepting that offer: "I don't need any help; I can run my own life fine, thank you very much", and all that.
Or another phrase, "I don't need anybody to die for me, and I don't WANT anybody to die for me, it's creepy!" (LOL) But hey, I was there once, and now look at me.
love, Eden
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oneinchrist
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Hi Eden,
I hope I didnt give you the impression that I am all about "scare tactics". In the past I have had friends who have been willing to listen to me tell them about the new world to come and how wonderful it will surely be. It just so happens to be in my experience witnessing that its been only certain particular individuals who would have the patience to sit and listen to me talk about all that at any length. When I realize that conversation about God is not going to last very long, that is when I have more of a tendency to ask them why they would be willing to risk their souls. They are usually more surprised than angry when I ask them that question. I thought I might add that I am not a stranger to most of the people that I witness to. They are people that I have befriended over the years. Some of them, perhaps, would be more offended by some of the things that I say if I were not friends with them at all.
One more item that I would like to adress. You made mention that we should preach more on the "free Gift" than on Hell. From my experience witnessing, there is virtually no one who is ignorant of the story of Jesus and that Jesus is sent from God to make forgiveness available to us. I am finding that is not what is so offensive to some people, but what is really so offensive to them is the prospect that they would no longer be able to run their own lives because they would have to be subject to the authority of Jesus.
One of the guys I was witnessing to came right out and said it. He told me that he believed that religion was like a catch 22. Then I said to him " What do you mean by that?, that if you accept the forgiveness for your sins that you are suddenly trapped because you will belong to Jesus?" He replied, "Thats right, thats what Im talking about". I wanted to ask him what is so wrong with belonging to Jesus but the words just didnt come out. All I was thinking about was Pauls contrasting words "slaves to sin" and "slaves to Christ". Then my thought was "Oh boy, Lord how do we reach people that think that way?"
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Eden
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Dear oneinchrist, you wrote quote:
Thanks for the fellowship Eden.
Me too, brother; thanks for being so kind and calm and fair.
You continued quote:
Hi Eden, I do not believe that anyone is condemned unless there is a fully conscious decision to ignore/reject the good news. Once a person has heard and understood the gospel, I have no reason to believe that God has not given them the ability to respond in faith (no matter how little).
Yea, I would agree with that. However, there are countries, like Saudi Arabia, where it is a crime, punishable by death, to convert from Islam to Christianity, IF one was born a Moslem.
And it is a crime to preach the gospel in Saudi Arabia, so overall the population of Saudi Arabia
has "much less of a chance to hear the gospel" than say, USA America, and so the chances of the Saudi Arabians hearing and being able to respond to the gospel are considerably reduced over American or Europeans, for example.
I say the above because u wrote quote:
I do not believe that anyone is condemned unless there is a fully conscious decision to ignore/reject the good news. Once a person has heard and understood the gospel, I have no reason to believe that God has not given them the ability to respond in faith (no matter how little).
Lost of people don't even get the chance to hear the gospel. What happens then? Is that fair?
Or will God provide one more opportunity for those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel (as say, in the jungles of New Guinea in 200 A.D.), people there "never heard nothing".
So I personally DO believe that for God to be fair, the people who have never had a CHANCE to hear and decide, MUST have a chance to hear and respond, and maybe God will provide them with the gospel at their judgment seat?
oneinchrist continued quote:
Most unbelievers that I have witnessed to in the past who have been resistant still eventually came to admit that they believe what they want to believe and that I can believe what I want to believe. When I ask them why they are willing to take the risk with their souls they usually do not have an answer.
They "risk" their souls because this whole "soul idea" is "all part of that same nonsense of the Bible... You continued quote:
If someone was to say to me......"Daniel, how can you believe Jesus rose from the dead?" I would respond back by telling them, "I do understand how crazy it may seem, but I choose to believe it because I choose to believe that God loves us that much".
Yes, and I personally also believe that the resurrection is true because of all the astounding miracles that Jesus did in the New and that Yehovah did in the Old.
And how amazingly all the books of the Bible dovetail into each other, and how "mere fishermen" wrote most of the New Testament...what do you think, that these fishermen got together in a Galilean cafe and plotted how to not say the same thing in each one's gospel? ![[type]](graemlins/type.gif) ![[roll on floor]](graemlins/6.gif)
In other words, I believe the good news of the resurrection "not just because I know that God loves me that much" (although that can work too), but there are "loads" of good reason of why we should and could "believe the good news of the resurrection", of "it may sound crazy but I do believe that Jesus rose from the dead".
You continued quote:
Then I wait to see what they have to say before conversation continues. I am not saying that there is a perfect line for every person, but that we should let unbelievers know(in a nice way) that they are willing to risk the fate of their souls.
Yes, they risk the fate of their own souls, but better yet, they lose out on participating "in the world-to-come", this should be a huge part of our Christian gospel too: it's not just the destinity of the soul into something negative, we must emphasize much more what they are missing out on: participation in the world-to-come with Jesus ruling over the earth as King of kings, and we having received a body like the resurrected Jesus had, and live forever on a renewed earth and repaired sky. Less punishment preaching, more "so if the free gift" teaching.
You continued: quote:
I consider that to be much better than to let them remain comfortable in unbelief.
Well, that is good. I tend to find that God provides opportunities, here and there, for me to suddenly be able to say something more about me being a bornagain-type Christian and interject the gospel of Jesus Christ to my friends and acquaintances again.
Luke 13
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbers it the ground?
8 And he, answering, said to him, Lord, leave it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bears fruit, well: but if not, then after that You shall cut it down.
As the Lord provides opportunities for us to say something, so He dungs their ground some more to see if it will bear fruit.
love, Eden
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oneinchrist
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Hi Eden,
I certainly agree with you that there are all kinds of circumstances (childhood upbringing and cultural influence for example) that can have an effect on what direction we lean towards in our lives. I do not believe that anyone is condemned unless there is a fully conscious decision to ignore/reject the good news. Once a person has heard and understood the gospel, I have no reason to believe that God has not given them the ability to respond in faith (no matter how little).
Most unbelievers that I have witnessed to in the past who have been resistant still eventually came to admit that they believe what they want to believe and that I can believe what I want to believe. When I ask them why they are willing to take the risk with their souls they usually do not have an answer.
If someone was to say to me......"Daniel, how can you believe Jesus rose from the dead?" I would respond back by telling them, "I do understand how crazy it may seem, but I choose to believe it because I choose to believe that God loves us that much" . Then I wait to see what they have to say before conversation continues. I am not saying that there is a perfect line for every person, but that we should let unbelievers know(in a nice way) that they are willing to risk the fate of their souls. I consider that to be much better than to let them remain comfortable in unbelief.
Thanks for the fellowship Eden.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Eden
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hello, oneinchrist, you wrote quote:
Hi Eden,
How then could it be fair to make the unbelievers accountable for their unbelief? I believe it is scriptural to say that unbelief is sin.....for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. I do not understand how it is that men would ever be made accountable for something they could not help or have any control over? How could men be made accountable for thier unbelief if they were not given the capacity to believe the message?
God and Jesus decided on the method (plan of salvation thru Jesus dying on the cross for their sins and Jesus resurrecting), and then if some or even many people are not able to accept the method (plan of salvation thru Jesus), the people are still making their choice "in real time".
Probably when dealing with a sinful world, there IS no plan which could include everybody, short of God just saying, "okay, I forgive everybody no matter what you have done, here is free eternal life for everybody".
The reason God could not have chosen the "forgive everybody plan" is because God had said in the garden of Eden, "of the tree of knowledge you shall NOT eat" and "in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die" and "the soul that sins, it shall die".
For God to subsequently decide "oh well, I just told you that in the garden to try to get you to behave" would contradict God's aspect of justice.
Also, eventhough all men are sinful, some Adamic men have made a conscious effort to "be a considerate and kind person", while others have completely disregarded God's laws and killed, raped, beat and stole, at will.
It would not be just and fair for God to say later, "the rules did not really matter", because the people who robbed and stole got economic advantage over others who decided NOT to rob and steal, and so on.
So in order for God's justice to remain intact, God had to deal with the matter of sin, and especially with some having sinned much more than others, to solve that problem, God sent Jesus to die in place of everyone, so that no one can say anything like "oh, he sinned much more than me, how can he receive eternal life just like me"?
There probably was no other plan available to dealwith both the penalty of a sinful earth, and provide new life thru Jesus Christ.
But as with any plan, not everyone can accept it, and who can accept the plan is probably subject to their family history. For instance, if my parents were bornagain Christians, my chances of being able to accept the plan are considerabley increased (not guaranteed by def increased) as compared to me being a son born into a family of atheists whose "mantra" has since my birth been that this "God stuff is ridiculous, eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you die" (this person can also be saved, but the odds are against him), and so on.
So the plan itself that could be used was limited (since it had to deal with God's justice and with God's mercy at the same time), and in turn each individual's family history limited who would accept the plan.
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate and narrow is the way, which leads to life, and few there be that find it.
Matthew 7:13
Enter in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be who go in thereat.
love, Eden
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Bloodbought
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We must keep sowing and leave the miracle of the growth with the Lord.
Mark 4:26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
27 And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.
28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.
The man in verse 26 is the preacher, the seed is the word of God and the ground is the heart of the sinner onto which the seed falls. The preacher sows the seed and takes his rest in confidence that the seed will germinate, but he doesn’t know how that happens.
For the earth, or the heart verse 28 brings forth fruit of its self; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.
Now we know that the same good seed is broadcast to all men, but the seed will only germinate when it falls on good fertile ground. So what is it that makes the soil of the heart fertile?
Proverbs 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
There are those whose hearts are stony and hard, and unless God prepares the heart and makes it fertile so that the seed can germinate, the sowing of the seed is in vain. But we must keep sowing because we don’t know how prepared the hearts are to receive the word. God does not prepare all hearts and that is why not all who hear the word are saved. If God does prepare the heart of man and has predestinated him to eternal life, the heart will bring forth fruit of itself verse 28.
The word (herself) verse 28 is the Greek word (automatos) from which we get the word automatic. So when the good seed of the word of God is sown in a prepared heart, it automatically produces fruit due to the new nature of the soil of the heart. The man himself is responsible because his new nature is producing fruit automatically within the heart.
The unregenerate man is responsible because his heart produces thorns and thistles automatically, which are emblems of the curse. They don’t need to be planted because the roots are already there.
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oneinchrist
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Hi Eden,
How then could it be fair to make the unbelievers accountable for their unbelief? I believe it is scriptural to say that unbelief is sin.....for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. I do not understand how it is that men would ever be made accountable for something they could not help or have any control over? How could men be made accountable for thier unbelief if they were not given the capacity to believe the message?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Eden
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And yes, I do think that the fact that God and Jesus chose their particular plan on how to save people DID PREDESTINATE certain people to be able to believe that plan, and it DID PREDESTINATE others who would never be able to believe such a plan.
In that sense, the very plan becomes determinative.
Let's say for instance that the plan was that whoever liked steak done medium rare and garlic shrimp, only those people would be saved. I would also be saved on that plan, but there are people who don't like shrimp and who have to have their steak well-done.
And since God can look on the sincerety of their heart/mind, God would know who would be really saved, and who not.
The plan had to be SOMETHING, and God and Jesus came up with this AMAZING plan, but evenso, there are many people who simply CANNOT believe this plan.
Acts 17
31 Because He has appointed a day, in which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He has ordained; whereof He has given assurance to all men, in that He has raised Him from the dead.
32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: but others said, We will hear you again of this matter.
The plan itself predetermined everything. For me it was a great plan, but not for everyone:
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate and narrow is the way, which leads to life, and few there be that find it.
Now, people may not be able to believe in the resurrection, Bloodbought, but they are definitely believing in a lot of other stuff, and are acting on those things. They are still very busy, being, doing, choosing, promoting, arguing, laughing, and whatever else they do in life on earth.
love, Eden
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Eden
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Bloodbought, men's mind and their will are affected by sin, even to the point where they now HAVE to hear or read the Word of God to get saved and hear from God again (sometimes God performs a sovereign act to save someone).
But even without God, man is a capable creature who is doing his best to run his own life now that he does not have God on his side anymore (unles he is saved). But even sinfilled man can do a lot of damage with his mind and will, just witness the condition of the earth right now.
But when it comes to how to get saved, I think the Lord presents people with opportunities to get saved, and when people do not respond, God moves on for now to the next people:
Hebrews 4:7
Again, He limits a certain day, saying in David, Today, after so long a time; as it is said, Today if you will hear His voice, harden not your hearts.
Some will hear the Word of God and bear fruit, but many humans will not bother to hear, finding it the preaching of the cross nonsense.
But as to their will, they are exercising that will every day; only dead people do not exercise their will anymore.
love, Eden
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Michael Harrison
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The question is, is Jesus your life? Or is HE simply someone you live for. Do you get the difference? In one case one lives for Him. In the other case, one lives 'by' Him. One does not by an evil heart, 'live by Him'.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
since man has been deceived and infected by Satan, what good is it going to do him by choosing to obey God? None is the short answer. Since the harm is already done, it doesn’t matter what choices he makes because he has already proved that he is incapable of making the right choice without Divine help.
Exceedingly! Divine help is a simple single heartbeat away. And obeying God is not in doing. It is in having. And that is who HE is! That is why we 'believe'. Because we believe unto 'having'. And having translates into manifestation; but not if we do not believe! ! !
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
That is how the devil operates, by deception and man is no match for his subtlety. Man is helpless, once down he can’t get up; it’s called total depravity installed in his heart by the devil. The scripture you quote is a good one and shows that evil comes from the heart. So these evil desires are injected into the heart and not the mind as was suggested in earlier posts, sorry about that.
Ok! Well, to the extent that we are a prisioner of total depravity can be debated. Because total depravity abates whenever we 'trust'. For then it gives way to life. Because that is what Jesus gives us. Else it could be said that all that He offers us in our condition of total depravity, is total depravity, and hope at some later date. It is not so. He gives us freedom from total depravity in the now. Therefore we are not limited by a heart which is evil. This does not happen without unconditonal surrender. Face unconditional surrender and discover. (In other words, seek and ye shall find.)
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
- Luk 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Why do you 'assume' evil? Evil is the state of the unrepentent HEART. It is what we are saved from. Your position assumes that one is evil of heart, and from there proceeds that which defiles man. If such is your state, you have not repented.
Hi Michael,
I’m using evil as the starting point since I have made no headway of approval to much of what I said thus far. How did evil start? It started in the Garden of Eden by the serpent. Man was not and is not evil, if he was, God would have no interest in saving him, but the serpent caused sin in man by deceiving him. That is how the devil operates, by deception and man is no match for his subtlety. Man is helpless, once down he can’t get up; it’s called total depravity installed in his heart by the devil. The scripture you quote is a good one and shows that evil comes from the heart. So these evil desires are injected into the heart and not the mind as was suggested in earlier posts, sorry about that.
Now the point I am trying to make, and I hope you can catch my drift without confusion,and dont say, "Oh brother!" is that since man has been deceived and infected by Satan, what good is it going to do him by choosing to obey God? None is the short answer. Since the harm is already done, it doesn’t matter what choices he makes because he has already proved that he is incapable of making the right choice without Divine help. If the Holy Spirit chooses to save him, new words and good words are going to come from his mouth. This in many cases is how we know if his salvation is real. Those who say they have made a choice for Christ and live exhibiting evil desires have not been worked on by the Holy Spirit.
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Michael Harrison
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We all yearn to please Jesus. But we try it by 'doing'. Yet that misses the mark. It will never hit the mark. For we cannot, by doing, accomplish what needs to be accomplished. And it is not what Jesus requires in order for us to be pleasing to Him.
Look at it like this. If we cannot walk on water by wanting to, neither can we please Jesus by wanting to. For it needs to be seen that walking on water is not something we do by trying, but something He enables us to do only. So what we need is the 'enabling'. It can be found.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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If you believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead…. Thou shalt be saved. But where does HE have to be for you to be raised from the dead? (This means, what do you have to believe to be born again?) For you to be made alive, Jesus has to be raised from the dead in your heart. And what does HE save us from? OUR SINS! If we are saved from our sins, we are saved from sinning.
I know. The most popular belief is that we are saved from our sins, as though we can be in them and have our birthday cake too. But salvation is better than that. We are saved from being evil of heart, and performing the things which are convenient to our old nature. We are saved from having to willfully commit sin. For every scripture which we think says otherwise, there are forty which say otherwise. And one single scripture has all the power we need to consider. Take for example:
- Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Sin shall NOT have DOMINION over you. That is so simple that it cannot be missed. Yet it is, automatically, especially when we are young Christians. I know! I am human too. But that it says that it shall not have dominion, means simply that it 'cannot make you' against your will. And if your will is trusting God.....
So if it cannot make us, then we have no excuse. We have no justification for it. But if the heart is not enlightened, then all we can do is fail. But failure is not an option. Yet if we do, we have an advocate. Cool!
But the place beyond failure has to be sought and found. Otherwise our condition is one of failure. So we can look at it like this: Belief overcomes. How many times does scripture speak of overcoming? On the flip, unbelief IS overcome. It is automatic. It is a state, or condition. It misses what the price that Jesus paid, actually does.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
Bbought! quote:
Hi everyone. I don’t seem to be getting my point across, but see what you make of this.
Mark 7:20-23 20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
If any of these evil things are injected into the man and they are in his heart, they are going to show up in his actions. So how can his will overcome and cause him to do well, if at the same time the thoughts of his heart has his will is set on doing evil?
- Luk 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Why do you 'assume' evil? Evil is the state of the unrepentent HEART. It is what we are saved from. Your position assumes that one is evil of heart, and from there proceeds that which defiles man. If such is your state, you have not repented.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Eden
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Hi, Bloodbought, you wrote quote:
Hi everyone. I don’t seem to be getting my point across, but see what you make of this.
Mark 7:20-23 20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
If any of these evil things are injected into the man and they are in his heart, they are going to show up in his actions. So how can his will overcome and cause him to do well, if at the same time the thoughts of his heart has his will is set on doing evil?
As I have mentioned in a previous post above, man's will is impinged upon by his family history, by sin, by unlovedness, by poverty, by abuse, and so on. These things may limit man's choices, but even with these limitations, man still does have an enormous capacity to "make decisions with his will".
All it takes to verify that is to look outside and see all the activity in the city; none of it is done by robots but by free-thinking individuals whose will is only "impinged upon" or "somewhat diminished" by the evil ways that man has chosen.
In other words, "Adam and Eve" now do not have the "mind of Christ" but they still have a "very active mind"; the decisions coming out of this mind are not the greatest anymore since there is no input from God (unless they are Christians), but they are still making tons and tons of decisions, every day.
love, Eden
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Eden
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Hello, Bloodbought, RE the "thoughts being injected into the mind/soul by the devil", it's not like a drug that's injected, it's more like "suggestions", "thoughts" that the person can either decide to follow or use, or not. It is still always the Adam and Eve person who does the deciding with their will what to do next, with anything.
All day long, Adam and Eve (as representative of our current race) are making choices; they can minimize their choices if they lay down and don't get up day after day, but the more they get up, the more they have to choose from when to go out the house, where to go first, etc.
If they are Christians, God can counsel them thru the Holy Spirit and thru the Word, but even then the saved person has to choose whether to follow God's moment-to-moment counsel, or not.
And if they are not Christians, then the devil will speak to their soul/will/mind area (assuming that the devil can do that, I'm not entirely sure about that since the devili a spirit), but assuming the devil can do that, then the person can decide to "follow that suggestion", or not.
It is always the person, the soul/personality that has the capacity to make the ultimate decision.
Now of course God does have absolute power of all people in that God can destroy all the people if God chose to do that.
But because God "so loved the world", God has to/wants to keep the people alive for now, and that does limit God in what God can do with man for now since man has this free will to choose whatever he wants to do from moment-to-moment.
The thing is that man is not like a rock and not like a plant and not like a tree, but man is a free-running, loose, self-contained entity which is in fact capable of "taking the earth over from God" and that is in fact what has happened.
The time will come God will take the earth back thru Jesus Christ, but for now, the devil and man is in possession of the earth, and man and the devil are exercising their dominion over the earth and they are making all the decisions to run the earth by themselves, unless they are Christians.
And even if they are Christians, they can still choose or to ignore "what the Spirit says to the church". Man is not a robot; man is a free-running, loose, independent entity that can "do what he wants" (for now, at least).
love, Eden
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Bloodbought
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posted
Hi everyone. I don’t seem to be getting my point across, but see what you make of this.
Mark 7:20-23 20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
If any of these evil things are injected into the man and they are in his heart, they are going to show up in his actions. So how can his will overcome and cause him to do well, if at the same time the thoughts of his heart has his will is set on doing evil?
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
If thoughts are being injected into the mind, the will is not free.
Oh brother! ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) The will is not penalized by 'thoughts'. The will chooses to go along with 'thoughts', or not. The will mediates between thoughts, and emotions, both of which are suggestions. It is such that either the mind wins out over the emotions, or one goes with his emotions.
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Forever His
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Bloodbought wrote:
If thoughts are being injected into the mind, the will is not free.
Hi again Bloodbought. I have been following this thread with interest. I see very little that we disagree upon except for in one area and that is the "method" in which we serve. If I understand correctly I do not see that you believe that we serve God "ONLY" from the motivation of love and love alone. Is that correct?
I belive that when Jesus said If I be lifted up I will DRAW all unto myself [ ie. through love not force ]
When I looked at what you wrote above I noticed something... My second reading of it brought me to realize that that statement is not true in either scientific or spiritual terms. For example... You can indeed have thought's injected into your mind and NOT follow them... it happens to me every day. I do not always follow my first thought ... I would have been put in jail many years ago if I always did ![[Wink]](wink.gif) ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
God might impress our minds with... come unto me all you who labor and I will give your rest for your soul...
Yet satan might say ... don't listen to Him... what you need is to "get away" for a while.
We indeed are in a war with two sides pulling us toward either salvation... or destruction. There are ONLY TWO SIDES to choose from. Yet God gives us the free will to choose... that is why He says "choose life" for why should you die ?
God Bless as we study and see Him more fully
Forever His
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Forever His
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Thank you Eden. I was surprised when I could not find a spell check here. I will have to do it the way that you sugest. hmmm... suggest ... ahh that looks better
where is that spell check when you need it anyway ![[pound]](graemlins/pound.gif)
God Bless you
Forever His
I wanted to add that I thought that your last post was really well written.
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Since God was not helping Adam and Eve think and make good choices, Adam and Eve were now “making their own choices”, and the devil helped them “with their choices” as much as he could by injecting thoughts directly into their soul/mind, since their spirit was no longer being used.
If thoughts are being injected into the mind, the will is not free. If drugs are injected into a man, it’s going to affect his will. He may think he is in control, but in reality the drug is controlling his will and causing him to make choices that any right thinking man wouldn’t make. His will becomes a slave to the drug injection.
So to repeat what you said,” the devil helped them “with their choices” as much as he could by injecting thoughts directly into their soul/mind.” I think that is an accurate statement and if that injection has affected all of mankind, which I believe it has, and there is no immune system to cause it to die out, they require an antidote injection from the Lord to recover.
Without the Lord man can do nothing. He can’t choose to have pure thoughts while his will is corrupted, so the Lord must intervene to get him onto the straight and narrow way. So while mans will is influenced by outside sources, it’s not free.
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Eden
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Bloodbought wrote quote:
This is what I have been saying all along, that there are two lines.
The first line is that God is on the throne giving the commands and the second line is that the devil has been in communication with man and has him drawn his way. Can anyone show me where man has free will in that?
Uhh…the devil exercised his free will when he said “I will go be higher than the LORD and sit in the congregation of the north”, and then the devil also persuaded Eve and Adam to rebel against the LORD and “take the earth for themselves”, in alliance with the devil who in the process became “the prince of this world.”
In the garden, Adam and Eve decided to “go it alone” and “we no longer need God”, as God said, “behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil”, and let me ask you this:
Since God was not helping Adam and Eve think and make good choices, Adam and Eve were now “making their own choices”, and the devil helped them “with their choices” as much as he could by injecting thoughts directly into their soul/mind, since their spirit was no longer being used.
To repeat what you said, Bloodbought: quote:
This is what I have been saying all along, that there are two lines.
The first line is that God is on the throne giving the commands and the second line is that the devil has been in communication with man and has him drawn his way. Can anyone show me where man has free will in that?
You went on to say quote:
He is going to either obey Gods commands or else he is not, and if not why not? Because his will is bound by things he sees as being more important to him and while he continues in that frame of mind, he WILL not obey the Lord.[./quote]He may not obey the Lord now that he is “operating his own body by himself, with his own mind and senses”, but to do that, Adam’s descendants have to make “lots of choices” every day. Without input from the LORD, life is “even more difficult to figure out” so he has to make “lots of choices”.
Bloodbought, you said above [quote]“Because his will is bound by things he sees as being more important to him…”
His will is NOT BOUND by things he sees as more important to him, HE HIMSELF is more interested in things other than God. Since the fall, Adam and Eve’s will is NOT BOUND, it’s INTERESTED IN OTHER THINGS, but their will is CONSTANTLY exercised in the things that Adam and Eve ARE interested in.
The will is subservient to Adam and Eve. The will is one of the instruments that Adam and Eve possess, and use all the time.
It is not as if their will is BOUND, as you propose, and that therefore Adam and Eve are somehow not making any choices ("not exercising their will")...not at all, Adam and Eve are exercising their will constantly.
love, Eden
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Eden
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Hello, Forever His, you wrote quote:
ps. could someone please show me where the spell check is?
I don't think there IS a spellcheck on this bbs (I may be wrong), but if you open up a word processing document and do your post composing in word processing, then you can spellcheck it there and then you paste it into the bbs spot.
love, Eden
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The Beauty of Holiness777
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quote:
Michael
What is freewill, but choice?
Either way we say it it means the same so what more can we say.
Love and peace to All.
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In God I'am Complete.
I am a "Spiritual Being" living in a physical body.
{Prayer - a force that reaches people and places when we can't}
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
quote:
I’m a staunch believer in the doctrine of predestination. What I see is that God set everything up for a purpose. If man is in any way in control nothing has a purpose. What can man purpose for man in eternity when he isn’t God? Nothing. Man has no free will any more than the earth has a free will to orbit the sun.
What is free will, but choice? If a man can choose, then he has free will. And, man can 'choose' to be in control. He may not be very much in control, but he can choose it.
quote:
This is what I have been saying all along, that there are two lines.
The first line is that God is on the throne giving the commands and the second line is that the devil has been in communication with man and has him drawn his way. Can anyone show me where man has free will in that? He is going to either obey Gods commands or else he is not, and if not why not? Because his will is bound by things he sees as being more important to him and while he continues in that frame of mind, he WILL not obey the Lord.
And here we see choosing. Man chooses whether he is on line one, or line two. Also, there are multiple choices at play regardless of which line he is on, except, he doesn't exercise his choices if he is on line one. He lets his choices be in the hands of the capable one, because, he 'enters' HIS rest. Then he knows HIS control. (Believe in your heart!)
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Bloodbought
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Hi becauseHElieves,
Thank you for linking us to the prince of preachers, Spurgeon.
I take it that you agree with what he said?
This is what I have been saying all along, that there are two lines.
The first line is that God is on the throne giving the commands and the second line is that the devil has been in communication with man and has him drawn his way. Can anyone show me where man has free will in that? He is going to either obey Gods commands or else he is not, and if not why not? Because his will is bound by things he sees as being more important to him and while he continues in that frame of mind, he WILL not obey the Lord.
Line two is open; man is not willing to obey. Line one is open as well, so the only hope left is line one. Man doesn’t see line one as an option while he sits in his comfort zone, so line one isn’t contacted. Then, what do you think, line one contact him, through the preaching of the word and glory to God he answers line one and to him is revealed great and mighty things that he knew not of. Now line one is hot and line two has gone silent, but isn’t dead. Line one has got through with such authority that the man chooses to convert.
While these two lines of communication are in operation, they are pushing the buttons of mans will, therefore his will is not free. Sometimes when he is on line one, he may enquire, what wilt thou have me to do? He isn’t free to do what he likes of his own free will as many think. No, he is under his commander, God.
God bless.
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Forever His
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The more I ponder this thread the more concerns that I have about how one would view God and His amazing and abundant matchless Love. If the first post is stated correctly [ that men are no more free, than the earth to rotate in it's axis ] then instead of establishing God's sovereignty... it destroys the very foundation upon which it is built.
If God "arbitrarily" subject's His " crowning act of creation" to His wishes and purpose by "controling everything they do" then His sovereignty is very limited and He has no real power other than that of display.
However... when understood correctly God's sovereignty is displayed not by force... or by overwhelming power... but by setting His subject free to "choose" to love Him... or choose not to. The real issue in soverngty is.. is God so powerful that He can draw those who are in sin and rebellion against Him... and win their HEARTS simply by revealing His charachter.
Now "THAT" would be a test to see just how sovergn God really is.
Bloodbought wrote :
I’m a staunch believer in the doctrine of predestination. What I see is that God set everything up for a purpose. If man is in any way in control nothing has a purpose. What can man purpose for man in eternity when he isn’t God? Nothing. Man has no free will any more than the earth has a free will to orbit the sun. If the earth did have free will to orbit the sun, it would just be doing it’s own thing without a purpose. No, God set the earth in motion and He didn’t just know it would orbit the sun, but He made it do that very thing. God set the earth in motion and stocked it with humans and animals and He has appointed the seasons, cold and heat, seed time and harvest and day and night while the earth remains, all for His own purpose and glory.
Humans are nothing more than lumps of clay in the hands of the potter that He moulds for His purpose, some to honour and some to dishonour. I say again, man has no free will.
Now if that is true then God is responsible for every murder, every rape, incest, all of the drugs and results of every sin know to mankind. I believe that many people do not correctly understand the true natre of God's soverngty or the limits that he has put upon this the events that are happeneing right here upon this earth. As a result I have been thinking of starting another trhead to discuss the real issues behind this topic in a thread called " War in heaven " ... I would like those who wish to participate to come and share their thought's there as long as you are not trying to start another war war right here at the cbbs ![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif)
ps. could someone please show me where the spell check is Thank you
May God Bless you and yours.
Forever His
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becauseHElives
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quote:
If you believe God is sovereign then He isn’t depending on man.
If you don't believe in man's responsibility....what need is thee for the Gospel?
The system of truth is not one straight line, but two. No man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once.
I am taught in one book to believe that what I sow I shall reap: I am taught in another place, that "it is not of him that willeth nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." I see in one place, God presiding over all in providence; and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions to his own will, in a great measure. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act, that there was no presidence of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to Atheism; and if, on the other hand, I declare that God so overrules all things, as that man is not free enough to be responsible, I am driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism.
That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0207.htm
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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The Beauty of Holiness777
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Hi Daniel
Sorry I didn't state whether I was agreeing or disagreeing.
I was agreeing I might have replied a little different with the words I used but "I was Agreeing." ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
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In God I'am Complete.
I am a "Spiritual Being" living in a physical body.
{Prayer - a force that reaches people and places when we can't}
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oneinchrist
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Hi 777,
I was wondering if you were agreeing with my post or if you were disagreeing with my post. It is too hard to tell. If you disagreed with it would you please clarify how you are using what you have stated to expose my error. I know that being human I am subject to error, so I am always open for correction. I am not easily offended.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
[QUOTE] If they will be held accountable, "because they are of the devil," where is accountability if they were created to be of the devil? Therefore they have no responsibility because they were created that way.
The reason they are accountable is because they are of the devil and not of God.
As I said before, “God never causes evil. Satan causes evil, but Satan is under Gods control.” God can decree mans fall without causing it, as we know He did in the Garden of Eden. Satan has mans will bound so that he is unable to please God and unless he is released by a miracle of grace he is held responsible just as Adam was in the Garden of Eden. I know this may not be a popular view, but it is the only view that fits into the whole of scripture in my opinion. If you believe God is sovereign then He isn’t depending on man. Man is depending on God and the mercy of God, but not all receive mercy. I never deserved any mercy, but thank God I received it anyway.
God bless.
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Michael Harrison
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Yet many cling to something that they hold to be true, even if it is easily challenged! And everybody makes the claim that the Holy Spirit guided them to the truth whatever view they hold. But did HE guide every diverse one? If it isn't Jesus here, Jesus now, it is not the entire truth. It may approach the truth.
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The Beauty of Holiness777
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quote:
OneinChrist
Where as a real active confidence with a heart determined to discover the Will of God is what I believe eventually leads to the assurance that comes from the Holy Ghost Himself.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth that leads, teaches and guides us into all truth. The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth concerning God's Word which holds many mysteries of the kingdom of God.
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In God I'am Complete.
I am a "Spiritual Being" living in a physical body.
{Prayer - a force that reaches people and places when we can't}
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Michael Harrison
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Yep! I am aware of it. And there are others. So maybe, "many are called and few are chosen," means that certain few, such as the prophets and apostles are chosen. In that case, the rest get to choose! But, even those who were chosen, got to choose!
quote:
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
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oneinchrist
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Hi 777,
I think that confidence in things about God/Jesus are necessary(For ex: Jesus is the Son of God) , but on the flip side of the coin confidence in things about God/Jesus can arouse the intellect of man and become unproductive to the point of causing divisions amongst us;
whereas, a real active confidence in God/Jesus that is combined with a heart determined to discover the will of God is what I believe eventually leads to the assurance that comes from the Holy Ghost Himself.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by The Beauty of Holiness777:
Bloodbought from the way you keep addressing some of your replies you make it sounds like there are some of us that were born saved from the beginning at birth. The one's that are born saved at the time of birth has done no wrong will go to heaven; and there are others who are born not to be saved from the time of their birth who has done no wrong they are doomed for hell. Which I know is not true for all men due to Adam's sin were born in Sin not one of us were born righteous.
How then do you explain this verse?
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
quote:
Another question comes to mind on "your theory" Bloodbought.
How about the babies who die at birth are some of them predestined for destruction as well? Would a just and righteous God condemned one who never heard His Word or never had a chance to do wrong or right? Never had a chance for repentance to accept Salvation?
Would you say since they died at birth they were predestined for hell?
I don’t know, God knows. Could they repent or believe if as you say they were born in sin?
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
bloodbought sez quote:
Many are called, but few chosen. Those who are chosen will respond, those who are not will be held accountable because they are of their father the devil.
Depends upon the meaning of chosen.... Chosen could mean from the foundation of the world. However, it could mean that many feel called, and therefore follow; however only a few of them are chosen. This is why we are called to rightly divide the word. But what 'sounds good' to our ear isn't necessarily to be found to be according to the truth. In fact, claiming to be 'chosen' may only be arrogance on the part of someone. So if we are chosen, it may only be boasting to say so, and I don't think it is HIS nature to tell anyone whatsoever that you are. For to be sure, there are some people who are not saved who will go to hell because they didn't make a decision for Christ because they figured if they were chosen, they would! It is strange, and unfortunate for them, and stranger that believers would lack humility before the world.
And.... If they will be held accountable, "because they are of the devil," where is accountability if they were created to be of the devil? Therefore they have no responsibility because they were created that way.
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Bloodbought
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Hi again oneinchrist,
If He was speaking of the sheep only, the Holy Spirit In His wisdom used the right word in 2 Pet 3:9.
I replaced the word willing with the word desiring.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not desiring that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
To use the same word as is used for the word will in1 Corinthians 1:1 the verse would read like this.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not determined that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Well we know He hasn’t determined that any of His sheep will perish, He doesn’t even desire it.
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The Beauty of Holiness777
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Bloodbought from the way you keep addressing some of your replies you make it sounds like there are some of us that were born saved from the beginning at birth. The one's that are born saved at the time of birth has done no wrong will go to heaven; and there are others who are born not to be saved from the time of their birth who has done no wrong they are doomed for hell. Which I know is not true for all men due to Adam's sin were born in Sin not one of us were born righteous.
No! Jesus died to saved and to give all a chance at Salvation.
Another question comes to mind on "your theory" Bloodbought.
How about the babies who die at birth are some of them predestined for destruction as well? Would a just and righteous God condemned one who never heard His Word or never had a chance to do wrong or right? Never had a chance for repentance to accept Salvation?
Would you say since they died at birth they were predestined for hell?
There are just to many scriptures of truth that makes your theory about Predestination a little off base.
God's Word will not come back void and it's on His Word I stand and boldly say.
Those who are born again with His Spirit are the ones predestinated for Heaven. (For they are His; God said if you have not His Spirit we are none of His.)
Those who are not born again has not His Spirit and they are predestinated for Hell unless they change. The Choice is still theirs.
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In God I'am Complete.
I am a "Spiritual Being" living in a physical body.
{Prayer - a force that reaches people and places when we can't}
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oneinchrist
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Good afternoon Bloodbought,
I see that you agree because you discovered the words to have a different Greek/Hebrew translation. I am glad that you didnt just take my word for it , but went and searched the scriptures.
I do think something can be learned by the different ways that the words "will" and "willing" are used when concerning the will of God.
In Peters passage we discover that it is Gods "desire" that men come to repentance......so Peter gives us a picture of God patiently waiting on our response to His Word of truth. So can we then conclude that Gods "forknowledge" would see ahead of time who would or would not respond favorably, and that those who will respond favorably would be "pre-destined" to be conformed to the image of His Son?
In 1 Corinthians 1:1 we see the will of God being carried out(directly by Jesus on the road to Damascus) in Pauls life as he was a chosen vessel of God to be a light to gentile nations and to suffer many things for truths sake.
Certainly most would agree that Paul was called in a unique and profound way , but it just so happens to be that the norm for most of us today is that faith comes by the hearing of Gods word.....we need to believe without seeing.
Hopefully though we are still living with the earnest expection of the Holy Spirits work in our lives because scripture declares it as a promise to those who will repent and believe on the Lord Jesus.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Bloodbought
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Hi oneinchrist
I do agree that the word is different in the two verses you quote.
1 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the ( will 2307 qe,lhma of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not (willing 1014 bou,lomai that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Then what about this verse where the word for will is the same as the word for will in 1 Corinthians 1:1.
Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own ( will: 2307 qe,lhma
Or this verse where the word for willing is the same word as the word for willing in 2 Peter 3:9.
Hebrews 6:17 Wherein God, (willing1014 bou,lomai more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
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oneinchrist
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Hi Bloodbought,
I think it needs to be understood that the words "Gods Will" can have more than one meaning depending on the context. This was discovered long ago, and Martin Luther was one of the well known individuals who pointed this out. Even bible dictionaries show the distinction.
Gods will can be referring to the following:
1. Gods effectual working to carry out His plan and purpose. Illustrated in this verse.....
1 Corinthians 1:1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God,.....
or
2. Gods desire for mankind. Illustrated in this verse ......
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by The Beauty of Holiness777:
quote:
Bloodbought wrote:
Philip is a picture of the work of the Holy Spirit teaching the eunuch the meaning of the scripture he was reading. In the earlier verses we see how the Spirit had Philip directed to the eunuch at just the right time. The eunuch was predestined for salvation and ultimately heaven.
So if that is the case then all men whether they chose Salvation or not is predestined to have freewill to go to heaven if they accept Salvation.
Because all of us who are saved today it was at a certain point of time that the Word of God was presented and explained to us and we understood it and accepted it.
The eunuch wasn’t just saved at the time Philip preached to him, he was chosen in Christ from before the foundation of the world. When Philip preached to him, he made his calling and election sure. He was never destined to be lost and his encounter with Jesus proved that. Jesus is building His Church and hell will not prevent Him. If it was up to us we wouldn’t make it because the devil would make sure we didn’t make it. We need divine intervention to come to our senses, but only the sheep hear His voice.
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All of us have had and will have a word sent to us through God's Word calling us to Repentance and Salvation. God does ordain the means, the time and the circumstance for All man to have a chance to be saved. Not saying All will be saved but God is Just and Righteous.
Many are called, but few chosen. Those who are chosen will respond, those who are not will be held accountable because they are of their father the devil.
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No man will ever stand before God and say I never heard your Word I never heard of Jesus Christ nor about being baptize for the remission of sins. His Word will be taught and heard in all the four corners of the earth. Whether man accept or reject it's up to them.
Even in the time of "The Great Tribulation" God will still be giving men and women a chance to be saved.
If by chance you mean ability, then yes.
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Yes! It is God's Will that All be saved that is definitely scripture.
If it is God’s will for all to be saved then all will be saved, but that is not the case, not all will be saved. Notice the words “us-ward” in 2 Pet 3:9, these are sheep only. He is not willing that any of His sheep are lost.
2 Peter 3:9 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward , not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
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oneinchrist
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posted
Good Morning Eden,
If you wouldnt mind, I would like to discuss one part of your above post.......
You said: However I do think that God limited the people who would be able to "select Jesus" in the world. By choosing the method of "Jesus dying for mans sins and Jesus rising from the dead on the 3rd day", God and Jesus DID LIMIT the amount, or kind, of person who would be able to accept that "method of salvation".
Then you said: Just try to preach to someone: Do you believe Jesus rose from the dead? Eden, dont be silly, no one rises from the dead.
Ok, now after reading these above statements there are a few thoughts that come to mind. First of all, I know that we would agree that people understand what it means to rise from the dead. If we are witnessing to an unbeliever and we tell them about Jesus, who He is , and what He has done for us........so long as we speak at their level they do understand what we are talking about.....at least that has been my experience in my witness of the Lord Jesus. So I believe that we can safely rule out that people cannot understand what the gospel is all about when they are told about it. Now the question is can we rule out that they are unable to believe it. Before I give you two contrasting real life examples in my experience I would like to share with you something that I believe gives us a clue into a particular truth.........lets use these verses...........
"What must I do to be saved?"
"Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved"
Take particular note that the emphasis is on where belief is directed, not on whether or not one has the ability to believe something.......Believe( an imperative word which implies an active and continuous belief) on(direction) the Lord Jesus (the object of belief).
1st real life example: My next door neighbor who my wife and I witnessed to and who we tried to help make it through the struggle of a divorce. We shared with him the gospel, and we told him how God has changed our lives and our perspective in life. I made it a point to explain to him that salvation is not just for only certain special people that God picks out giving only them a special ability to believe in Him(that would make salvation only for called leaders then)......I told him that the question that is layed before us is..........will we believe God? not, can we believe God? Time has passed and my next door friend Jason has committed His life to Jesus Christ. One of the happiest days of my life seeing him share his word of faith in Jesus and be baptized.
2nd real life example: I have a co-worker friend who also does side jobs. He has come over to my house to help me on a few things. I have had conversation with him asking him what he believes in. He is not a believer. Fortunate he has been open to converse on some subjects that involve God talk. Evidently one time I hit a nerve and he just outright told me "You believe what you want to believe". In my mind I said "thank you Lord, you have answered a question that I have been wanting answered". Its not that the outsiders (unbelievers) are unable to believe the message, its that they do not want to believe it......perhaps they do not want to come to terms with their sin, perhaps they are happy the way they are not having to be subject to a higher authority.....perhaps, perhaps , perhaps, there could be many reasons.......but the fact is that they are choosing to leave up the wall that has erected between them and God........for we know that our loving God does not erect that wall......He just keeps knocking on it hoping that one day we will answer.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
oneinchrist wrote quote:
If God actively controls every little jot and tittle , how then would it be possible for one of His chosen ones to ever be disobedient?
If God does everything as Bloodbought proposes, then God also has to be disobedient. And that would make God sinful and contradictory to His own other words.
How can God say, "choose you this day Whom you will serve" and then proceed to "make the choice for everyone in Israel in the time of Joshua?
Joshua 24:15
And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom you will serve; whether they be the gods whom your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Adam and Eve may have been without the input from the Spirit of God after their fall, but they are clearly capable of making decisions and choices.
To propose that God INJECTS EVERY THOUGHT into the mind of EVERY MAN, whether SAVED OR NOT, seems to contradict most of the words of the Bible where it is "God revealing Himself to man through Abraham-Isaac-Jacob-Jesus".
Psalm 78:22
Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation:
Psalm 78:32
For all this they sinned still, and believed not for his wondrous works.
John 6:64
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray Him.
Yes, God has foreknowledge and God "saw into the future who would accept the gospel", and likewise Jesus KNEW WHO THEY WERE who "believed not", because Jesus was God as the Son of God and also had this knowledge.
But that does not mean that God MADE them not believe the gospel. God only knew "who believed not", but God did NOT MAKE anyone believe the gospel or not; except God's method of having "the Son of God Jesus from heaven die for our sins and having Jesus rise from the dead on the 3rd day", that method DID determine who would be "able to believe something like that...".
To repeat what you wrote, oneinchrist quote:
If God actively controls every little jot and tittle, how then would it be possible for one of His chosen ones to ever be disobedient?
God Himself would have to be disobedient if God TOLD US to be disobedient. We are not to tempt God, but God does also not tempt us.
love, Eden
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Eden
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posted
Hi, Bloodbought, thanks for this Topic. It's an interesting discussion. You wrote quote:
The “all” are the sheep only. God is willing that all the sheep are saved. They are predestined for salvation.
It seems like you have this "upside down". We are sheep because we are saved. We are not saved because we are sheep.
However, I do think that God limited the people who would be able to "select Jesus" in the world. By choosing the method of "Jesus dying for man's sins and Jesus rising from the dead on the 3rd day", God and Jesus DID LIMIT the amount, or kind, of person who would be able to accept that "method of salvation".
In other words, it is NOT the kind of method of salvation which COULD be UNIVERSALLY BELIEVED by sinful men and women?
Just try to preach to someone: "Do you believe that Jesus rose from the dead"? Eden, don't be silly: NO ONE RISES FROM THE DEAD, and so on.
The method itself did limit WHO could be saved, and in that regard who would be saved WAS in part "pre-destined".
But even those Adamic men and women who WERE able to come to "believe the gospel", even they did HAVE TO MAKE A CHOICE. I remember the day very well. God did help by putting another Christian program on TV for me to see, and maybe the fear of God WAS put on me, but it was I who decided TO FEAR the Lord when I heard what He was "about to do".
To repeat what you wrote, Bloodbought quote:
The “all” are the sheep only. God is willing that all the sheep are saved. They are predestined for salvation.
We are sheep because we are saved. We are NOT saved because we are sheep.
love, Eden
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