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Originally posted by Billy:
For Zeena:

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Does it say that by the one offering he is has perfected forever those that are saved, or does it say that he has perfected forever those that are sanctified? That being said, when is the work of salvation complete? And when is the work of sanctification complete? These are all just retorical questions for your consideration. You need not answer, because I agree with the last two posts. If this is going to be a quarrel, rather than a discussion, I want no part in it. Sadly, you and I may be able to discuss, but others that happen upon our conversations have a tendancy to turn our discussions into quarrels. Too often, already, I have fallen into this trap.

In Christ,
Billy.

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Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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I shall be quiet, here in my very own post, so as not offer further opportunity to be accused of ruffling feathers. But in case you missed the post above Billy, here is a reprint of most of it:

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Abraham was righteous in 'thought and deed'. If one takes the position that you have, that one witholds him or herself while trying to get something from God. It will not work. It would be self-righteousness, or merited righteousness the way you explain it. For it would be 'earned' by faith, rather than realized by faith. We are 'realize' by faith.

Scripture says that "With the heart we believe unto righteousness." That does not say unto right standing. It says we believe unto righteousness! Righteousness is a way of thinking and behaving towards, or better yet, 'by' God. That is a lot to commprehend if we simply stop there. But we believe in "Being created unto righteousness," or 'good works', which is the same (another scripture take note!). Good works do not come from sinful people.

We believe in "Putting on righteousness." It means that we think and behave righteously in His eyes, for remember, even Jesus was Himself seen as a rebel and a sinner by the impure eyes of the worldly, yet how could they overlook it? He was God! Their heart was evil, that is why they 'didn't see. That is the fundamental reason I made this post. It is about the heart.

But it means that we do not have to abide in transgression in thought, word or deed. It is a what would Jesus do sort of thing. When we have His life, what HE would think and do, so do we. If you doubt me, here's scripture: "We have the mind of Christ." That is straight forward verse, such that if one is acutely aware that they don't, or don't seem to, they are in error, not the word, and if one is 'transformed' by the remewing of their mind, they will recognize, what you called, 'higher' thinking (His, instead of their own).

Abram 'believed' God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. What he believed went beyond the fact that God would raise Issac from the dead. He believed something deeper about God, such that it changed him. The result was that he believed that God would raise Issac from the dead, but in fact he believed that God would "Provide Himself a sacrifice," which if one reads, they will find Abraham telling Issac before he carried Issac to the out-back.

So he believed what Jesus would 'do', which entirely accounted for His righteousness. for what does Jesus do?) Then he understood righteousness; for it is 'what Jesus does'. And that is where it lies. When we believe what HE did on the Cross, and is doing in us, 'as a result of His dying on the cross, we realize something which is beyond ourselves, way beyond ourselves.

So, I don't need to quote 'lots' of scripture. One single verse will accomplish its work if we do not rationalize it, which means to make it fit our carnal understanding.

If scripture says that we believe unto righteousness, it means that we become operationally so by faith. It means that we minister His righteousness by our actions because we are not abiding in darkness. If it says that the Blood of Jesus clanses us of all sin, it isn't fooling around, as long as we trust this to be true. And if we try to rationalize it, (make it to fit our understanding) we completely water it down until it is useless. We try to becom acceptable as we are, such that we do not sense His need to change us, which He does, if we have truly believed in Him. Otherwise we are still seeking.

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I considered the nuculear option for this post. But joy will not let me do it.

Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Carmela:
Truthfully, I think this topic had already been beaten to death.

I haven't read enough of Michael's posts to know where he stands yet, but what I have seen here is that others are doing the exact same thing that they are accusing Michael of. Why get upset with each other? Michael has his beliefs and God will deal with him. We each have ours and God will deal with us. Do we need to attack each other? Disagree and discuss yes, but there isn't any sense in beating a topic to death when it's obvious that nothing is changing in anyone.

Let's let this lie and discuss topics that glorify God instead of focusing on each other.

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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Think ye that that is judging because I say that?

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Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Who convinces me of sin?

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Michael Harrison said: No eden. It was to zeena, as was the last post.

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Not even remotely. Why do you hinder the work of God?

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It was inadequate for God's purposes..

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Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Sanctification has nothing to do with attaining resurrection from the dead.

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So then, if your truly abiding then why do you judge that man a jerk?

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Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Michael Harrison:

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Intellect realizes, faith receives [Wink]

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Fair enough. No disagreement here. But for the purpose, what I said was adequate without having to go into a drawn out explanation.

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Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Intellect realizes, faith receives [Wink]

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Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
improve it.

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Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Eden:
But let me repeat, I am from half-heaven, half-earth these days. And, how about you?

love, Eden

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Nice to meet you Eden, in Christ!

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Michael:
"Faith realizes," as opposed to, "Faith earns,"

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Intellect realizes, faith receives

James 1:6-8
But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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What planet are you from Eden???

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Not as though I had already attained...resurrection from the dead!

Has nothing to do with sanctification. If there was anything Paul preached it was sanctification.

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God said that "Abraham believed" and "it" (his belief) was "counted to him for righteousness".


Not his "good" works, but "his belief".

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Righteousness is indeed EARNED earned by faith ALONE. ("Realizing" is what is done in New Age.)

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Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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For indeed, there is another verse in which Paul states;NOT as though I've already attained..

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Not as thought I had already attained...


...resurrection from the dead!


Has nothing to do with sanctification. If there was anything Paul preached it was sanctification.

Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Eden! You know the biggest difference between now, and before the full revelation of who He is

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Michael:
When you let Him be in control, all the way in control, then that jerk that just peeved you, is in His hand. God is Lord, It was no accident. Consider it God's design.

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Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Eden:
Galatians 3:22
But the scripture has concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them who believe.

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Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Billy:
1John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. KJV

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Billy:
It is the same in the translation that I commonly us, which is the NASB. I also like the NKJV. You will not see much deviation between these three versions. The NKJV is an updated version of the KJV, and the NASB is an updated version of the ASV, which originally served as an updated version of the KJV, as well.

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Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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No results found.
No results were found for realize pr realizedin the version(s):King James Version.
Try refining your search using the form above.

You can find more about refining searches and using the search form effectively, visit the frequently-asked questions page.

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But, to be fair to you, Michael Harrison, no results were found for earn or earned in the KJV either.
love, Eden

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Abraham was righteous in 'thought and deed'. If one takes the position that you have, that one witholds him or herself while trying to get something from God. It will not work. ... For it would be 'earned' by faith, rather than realized by faith. We are to 'realize' by faith.

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Abraham was righteous in 'thought and deed'. If one takes the position that you have, that one witholds him or herself while trying to get something from God. It will not work. ...For it would be 'earned' by faith, rather than realized by faith. We are to 'realize' by faith.

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Billy:
Likewise, when we put faith in Christ, we are put in a right standing with God, though we are not fully perfected until the resurrection.

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Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

What do you do with that Scripture then?

For indeed, there is another verse in which Paul states;NOT as though I've already attained..

The sanctification of God's elect is three fold;
Spirit, soul and body

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Please do. I know that many things do come by faith. I know that Abraham was credited with righteousness, because of his faith. This is not to say that he was righteous in thought and deed. It is only to say that he was in a right standing with God, because of his faith. Likewise, when we put faith in Christ, we are put in a right standing with God, though we are not fully perfected until the resurrection.

quote: MH wrote -
I can tell you scripture, but it will not translate into fact. (This is why I have slowed on quoting it. Besides, someone will inevitably want to outquote you and mess up the simple purity of the moment.)

This is what I'm talking about. Your words have no value if they are not backed up by scripture. If scripture (God's word) cannot convince someone, what do you expect your words to do? Do you have more faith in your words than God's?

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Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Do you confess your sin, daily? Or are you of the mindset that your sin has already been paid for, so why bother? Just curious.

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Zeena wrote -
That's not what my Bible says.. :

1 John 1:8 KJV
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

What version are you quoting?

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Posts: 217 | From: overseas | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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MH wrote -
Holiness is by faith. I can tell you scripture...

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MH wrote -
I can tell you scripture, but it will not translate into fact. (This is why I have slowed on quoting it. Besides, someone will inevitably want to outquote you and mess up the simple purity of the moment.)

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MH wrote -
This statement is verifiable by the word to the open mind.

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MH wrote -
You are referring not to Romans six, but seven and verses fourteen and fifteen perhaps.

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MH wrote -
So! You are referring not to Romans six, but seven and verses fourteen and fifteen perhaps. These are the most misquoted and most misunderstood verses in the Bible, I think. Paul is positioning himself for reference. He is not saying that 'he helplessly does' those things he is not supposed to, in spite of the Spirit of God. He is supposing, for the sake of trying to explain the gift of God, which is life, which is in its exactness (some would call it Holiness) is not doing those things that he would otherwise. Yet in the carnal stage, in the natural stage of one's development, the Christian sees this as justification for not measuring up. Not so. God is your ability to measure up. (Some call this Holiness.)

And to make one more try at explaining this, Paul is saying that this is what happens when, or if, he tries to 'keep' the law, apart from doing so by faith. He is saying that if he 'tries' to keep the law, he will "not measure up." His very trying proves him out to 'need a savior'.

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Here he is saying that he lives unto God, or he lives unto himself. To live unto God is to find one's self living beyond sin. What is sin? It is transgressing God.

If you read the rest of Romans, you will see verses like this:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

For, if you walk after the spirit, something will happen:

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

This verse clearly explains that Paul was not helpless to walk after the flesh, which is failure, or 'not measuring up'. For what is not measuring up? It is fulfilling the lusts of the flesh, which 'steals' one's Holiness.

Romans is so full it is very hard to keep it short.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Righteousness is 'fulfilled' in us! That means it is 'fulfilled' in us, which clearly would have to be written, 'failure is fulfilled in us', if the way you understand what Paul said in chapter seven is the correct way to interpret it.

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MH wrote -
1 John 1: is the same. It is a recap of what Paul said, in a lethal dose to the old man.

1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

To walk in darkness is to sin. It is to succumb. It is to justify failure as though God does not lift us out of it. Scripture says HE does.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

We have to admit our sin. That is it! We are hopelessly sinful 'apart from Him'. That is not true when we abide in Him, as the next verse verifies.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

We walk in the light. Marvelous! (Sounds like a Geico commercial). So, the condition is that if we 'walk in the light' His blood cleanses us from our sin. See! It says "All sin." And it continues as long as we continue to walk in the light.

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Posts: 217 | From: overseas | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Billy:
Read Romans 6. Paul was not perfect in deed, even after his conversion.

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Originally posted by Billy:
Though, he did strive to be, as we all should.

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Originally posted by Billy:
Read 1John 1. The apostle John tells believers that if they say that they do not sin, they make God a liar.

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Originally posted by Billy:
We are not holy in our deeds.

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Nor can we be, but the Spirit of God is HOLY, and as we submit to Him for His Holy Life, being filled with the fullness of God in Christ Jesus, so too, He Lives His Holy Life in and through us!

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Galatians 5:25
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Ephesians 5:17
Wherefore be ye not foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. And be not drunken with wine, wherein is riot, but be filled with the Spirit; speaking one to another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord; giving thanks always for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father; subjecting yourselves one to another in the fear of Christ.

Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

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Originally posted by Billy:
We are to strive for holiness. There is a difference.

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Originally posted by Billy:
We work with the Holy Spirit in testifying about our Lord. We testify with words. The Holy Spirit convicts and convinces. What then? Shall we now supplant the Holy Spirit and assume His job as our own?

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If we testify with words of ourselves the Lord is not obligated to back them up with Power!

He does, because He is.

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Originally posted by Billy:
1Corinthians 3:4-7
4 For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not mere men? 5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.

So, was it Paul that did the convincing, here? Or was it Apollos?

In Christ,
Billy.

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Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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So, in essence, you are stating that you have fully complied with these verses? Holiness means to be set apart, pure and blameless. Are you holy, according to your own deeds? Or do you strive to attain holiness, yet fall short, as the truly contrite will admit that they often do? Read Romans 6. Paul was not perfect in deed, even after his conversion. Though, he did strive to be, as we all should. Read 1John 1. The apostle John tells believers that if they say that they do not sin, they make God a liar. We are not holy in our deeds. We are to strive for holiness. There is a difference.

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Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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MH wrote -
And on "No one is Holy!

Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

I am sad to see that you would rather not comply with this!

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MH wrote -
But on letting the Holy Spirit change the minds, how will one be saved except a preacher is sent. (Rom 10:15)

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Posts: 217 | From: overseas | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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I am sad to see that you would rather not comply with this! Modeling ourselves after Paul is not going to do it either.

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I am sad to see that you would rather not comply with this! Modeling ourselves after Paul is not going to do it either.

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In reality Eden, I am telling them what 'not' to do.

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Paul was an apostle who performed many signs and wonders, in the name of Jesus Christ, in order glorify the Lord and validate his claim to apostleship. On top of that, the early church still tested his claims in light of scripture. In much of his writings, he quoted scripture. As an apostle, he had the added advantage of speaking not for himself, but the Holy Spirit spoke through him.

Unless you can verify some kind of apostleship, I would say that you are correct in that it is not wise to compare yourself to Paul. We quote Paul, and we model ourselves after Paul, in that we quote the scriptures, in context, and they do the correcting for us. None of us is high. None of us is holy. Thus, answer and exhort one another in love, and leave the work of changing the mind to the Holy Spirit.

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• Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
• Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
• Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
• 1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
• 1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

• Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
• Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

Rom 12:16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

Php 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

Rom 15:15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,

1Pe 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

It is equally your calling both to know, and to convince! I'm not special.

Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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The best way to preach and teach is by sharing what is true for YOU, instead of what we SHOULD do. Sharing what has happened to YOU in the "I" and "me" form gives people the personal freedom to decide FOR THEMSELVES what they like and imitate or will not bother with.

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Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged |