Christian Message Boards: Body Soul Spirit

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Imagine that you go to the local mart and you purchase a set of three containers for the kitchen. Imagine that they are neatly packaged so that they fit into each other. Therefore one, the smaller one, fits inside another, and the two fit into the larger one. So you have a container, and inside is another container, and inside that one is another.

Now, the size of these containers varies little. Each successive one which is smaller is just enough so to be able to fit into the next size up. So you get the picture of three separate containers, as one (at least when you take it home from the store).

What I want you to do is to take this principle and apply it to your outline. Imagine yourself lying on the floor. Picture someone drawing around your body, an outline of you. Then, when it is finished, you stand up. Now, let some one draw another outline inside the first. It should closely resemble the outer silhouette in size and shape. Now, just like the containers, draw the third one inside the first two, only smaller.

What is the purpose? Look at the smaller silhouette. Think of that as your spirit. Look at the middle silhouette and see that as your soul. Of course the third and larger silhouette is your body, and it contains both your soul, and your spirit.

Notice that all three are in the shape of you. Now, your spirit (the smaller one) is dirty and dead without Christ. And what happens is that we, in the absence of Christ, try to fill it with something. That is where the lusts of life aim for. They try to fill the void which is our spirit.

Ok, the next silhouette is our soul. To be fair, though the spirit is the small container, and fits into the soul, the two overlap. In fact, you will notice that the body is not hollow in the center, but it contains the soul and spirit, so that they exist inside of each other in overlapping fashion. But to keep it simple, let’s look at them as just hollow containers. Anyway, the soul is the middle container, and inside the soul is the spirit. And these two are inside the outer layer, the body.

Now we know that the body is dead because of sin. It will die and leave our soul and spirit. We will get a new body, but for now, it so happens that it will die. In the mean time, if we know Christ, something happens inside these three containers. God will fill it! Here’s how it is. But first, we have to understand something that is hard to describe. That is that our soul and our spirit are joined. There is a doorway, or gate to our spirit. It is where our spirit and soul intersect. And through this door of our heart, the spirit tries to be filled. We lust to be filled. That is why the heart is covetous. And the way into the spirit is through the heart.

The heart is key. The way our spirit is filled so that we are satisfied of God is that we believe in our heart that Jesus is our Lord. Jesus is ’the’ key. When we believe, something happens to our spirit. Jesus is able to fill our spirit with His Spirit, and that only after our heart believes. Remember that the heart is the door to our soul and spirit and Jesus is the key. Without Him, the spirit remains dead.

If we look at the drawing again now, we should see a heart drawn in. We must imagine that it is the intersection of our soul and our spirit. Imagine that before, the heart was dark, or black, and our spirit also. But when we have believed on Jesus, the heart is lighter. The spirit, our spirit, if it could be seen, would contain the Spirit of God, and the soul, which was dark by nature of the spirit being dark, now should be more transparent so that the light of God’s spirit, which fills our spirit, shines through. All of this is hid in our body however.

The point is that God’s Spirit fills our spirit and illuminates our soul as if it were a lampshade over a lamp. The bulb, or the light of it fills our spirit. And depending on the condition of our heart, if there is any dirt on the heart, it will appear as a spot in the lampshade, blocking the light in our spirit. Otherwise, this parallels the notion of a city set upon a hill is not hid; or the notion that no one lights a lamp and hides it under a bushel, Jesus being the lamp, and our soul the delight that colors the light.

The condition of the heart affects the illumination. If the heart is holy, then the soul will be transparent. If it is dark, then the light that is in the spirit will be dimmed, and will not shine through (For his Spirit is light, and would only be dimmed by our unbelieving heart). If the heart is holy, God’s love and His light will shine through the believer. This is why the word is given to us for instruction or reproof. It is to expose the condition of our heart so that we can deal with any darkness. Unfortunately, men love the darkness and have a hard time coming into the light. That means that they have a hard time having a change of heart. And a change of heart is needed before the light will shine through. Therefore the soul suffers under the 'old man' manifesting dark desires.

It's like this. Jesus illuminates the soul. He is like the light bulb. But if we regard sin in our heart, it is like someone sprayed black paint on the light bulb. It stops light from getting through, right? So it is the condition of the heart that determines the condition of the soul. Or it is the position of the heart that determines the condition of our soul. In other words, the soul is not corrupt if the heart is pure. That is because Jesus is the key. And if the key is in place, and God turns the key, we are unlocked. By being unlocked, the old man who we were has no dominion over us because we are new creatures in Christ.

So things like, bitterness, strife, self exaultation, superiority, spite, resentment, and a host more, are things that we are not subject to if we are under the Cross. That means, if we are dead, and risen with Him. For the soul does not manifest these if the heart is renewed.

Do you see what I am saying? We can confess Christ, and we can profess Christ, and still be subject to these things. But if the Cross has done its proper work, by His grace we are beyond that. We live beyond that with no requirement to obey any such temptation. When Christ is our heart, He is our life, there is no bitterness, there is no strife and God is "Working un us both to will and to do of His good pleasure." That means He is 'in' us working to will and do His good pleasure.

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Not: body, soul, spirit, but spirit, soul, body.

1 Thessalonians 5
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Adam and Eve were souls, which means they lived at the soul level.

When Adam and Eve sinned in Eden, they basically decided to operate their bodies from the soul level and ignore their spirit.

But only their spirit of man has the instruments to hear from the Spirit of God. So Adam and Eve no longer heard from the Spirit of God since Adam and Even now operated their body from the soul level, without input from their spirit, which now was, idle, as "smoking flax ready to go out".

When we Christians heard the Word of God we realized that we had made a mess by trying to operate our body from the soul level without the input from the spirit of man, and those of us who realized that, repented from trying to operate our body from the soul level (which we had learned from Adam and Eve).

And we stop our soul operation of our body and now the soul (we Christians) wait quietly and listen to our spirit of man, which alone has the instruments to hear from the Spirit of God.

Now the soul (we, our personality, who we are) listens to "what the spirit says" and "let him/her hear who has an ear to what the Spirit says", and then our spirit of man conveys what the spirit heard to the soul, and then the soul executes the command/granddesign/words of the spirit in the body, and all is going well.

spirit, soul, body, that is the order of God that will makes anyone's life a blessing.

The message is this: repent from operating the body from the soul level by acknowledging that the spirit knows best. Once the soul acknowledges that, the soul will shut up and stop trying.

with love to all, Eden
"cross me"

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Eden wrote:
Not: body, soul, spirit, but spirit, soul, body.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

AMEN!

Romans 3:4
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

This is kindergarden, no? It depends on whether one is looking from the outside in, or the inside out. God looks from the inside out? No? Do you not profess yourselves to be wise? If the spirit is in the soul, in the body, does not the body contain the soul, and spirit? If you go from the inside to the outside, is it not reversed if you go from the outside to the inside? What profit is in this immaturity? Turn from it that your soul may benefit. You think you have a little knowledge and you overlook the truth!

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
When we Christians heard the Word of God we realized that we had made a mess by trying to operate our body from the soul level without the input from the spirit of man, and those of us who realized that, repented from trying to operate our body from the soul level (which we had learned from Adam and Eve).

This is explained above. The heart is key. If it is not right, then the rest is not in order.

quote:
And we stop our soul operation of our body and now the soul (we Christians) wait quietly and listen to our spirit of man, which alone has the instruments to hear from the Spirit of God.

The Spirit of God is in the spirit of man:

Rom 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

What is wrong with God's children, they all prefer a lie? From whence cometh this evil? Self refuses to die.

(You are already crossed)

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
This is kindergarden, no? It depends on whether one is looking from the outside in, or the inside out. God looks from the inside out? No? Do you not profess yourselves to be wise? If the spirit is in the soul, in the body, does not the body contain the soul, and spirit? If you go from the inside to the outside, is it not reversed if you go from the outside to the inside? What profit is in this immaturity? Turn from it that your soul may benefit. You think you have a little knowledge and you overlook the truth!

God had it backwards, huh?

Posted by Billy (Member # 7193) on :

quote:
What is wrong with God's children, they all prefer a lie? From whence cometh this evil? Self refuses to die.

This statement is not beneficial to the body. Nor are any of the many statements that I have read from you in which you pronounce condemnation on people for not believing many of the beliefs that you espouse without scriptural evidence. Who cares what the make up of the body, soul and spirit are? All that matters is whether we are in His Spirit.

Posted by Billy (Member # 7193) on :

quote:
Do you not profess yourselves to be wise? If the spirit is in the soul, in the body, does not the body contain the soul, and spirit? If you go from the inside to the outside, is it not reversed if you go from the outside to the inside? What profit is in this immaturity? Turn from it that your soul may benefit. You think you have a little knowledge and you overlook the truth!

This is not beneficial to the body, either. You accuse people of thinking themselves wise and mature. Then you attempt to pick them apart and call them immature. By doing so you imply that you think yourself wise and mature. Whether you do this on purpose or not is not important. Your heart is revealed through your actions. Thus, I have a few verses for you that I hope you will meditate on before continuing to post destructive words.

Proverbs 12:15
The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, But a wise man is he who listens to counsel.

Proverbs 26:5
Answer a fool as his folly {deserves,} That he not be wise in his own eyes.

Proverbs 26:12
Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.

Proverbs 28:11
The rich man is wise in his own eyes, But the poor who has understanding sees through him.

Now, please show us that you can be of benefit to this board and the body of Christ, as a whole, by treating others with love and grace. Condemnation is for the Lord. Build relationships with others and prove yourself to be a genuine follower of our Lord, Jesus Christ, before you attempt to correct them. A kind word goes a long way. If God is love, and you have God in you, you will address others with love. I will not doubt your salvation, because I don't know you. However, I'm sure I speak for many on this board when I say, let us see the fruit of the Spirit in your words.

In Christ,
Billy.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Paul said: "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." What did he mean, "Be followers of me?" He had just 'discussed' being puffed up for one over another. Then he seems to point to 'himself' when he says to "Follow me." But what he was saying was "Do as I do, insomuch as he was saying believe what I believe." And the second half of the verse indicates even more closely what one should 'do', for he said, even as I also am of Christ. So he could have said "Be 'of' Christ."

That is not as simple as 'self-election', to be 'of' Christ.

You are looking for something to 'do' when you read my posts. That is why you are looking for the scripture. If you were looking for HIM, you would find the verses in scripture, for they are there. But will you obligate me to you?

Who cares about body soul and spirit? "The word of God is quick and powerful, sharper than a two edged sword, piercing to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intent of the heart." This says that the word, properly understood pierces to the heart and divides into two, the soul and spirit. What is important about that? It is important enough to put a scripture in the Bible concerning it. I am sorry that you miss it. What else might you miss?

It also says that it is a discerner of the thoughts and intents - of the heart. That means that it reveals what is in the heart. For, what one believes in their heart makes the difference in what they see. Even better stated, what one believes in their heart, makes the difference in 'who' they see. I address one's 'considering' what is in the heart. If you are offended there may be a reason that accusing me will not circumvent. You might want to rethink it before you correct me. For I'm not sure I 'recognize' your scorn, son?

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

If your heart is misguided you will not see the fruit in my words. I am however obligated to HIM, to speak them My ear is open to you, but my obligation is to Him. If you speak by Him, I will hear. If you do not speak by Him, I will address it, but if you will only hear it wrong, how will you be edified? If what I tell you is not true, it is upon me. For no one will escape the error of being wrong. If I am not wrong, the hearer will not escape.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
What is wrong with God's children, they all prefer a lie? From whence cometh this evil? Self refuses to die.

Do you really want me to bring up all the scripture on this, as though you don't alreasy know them? Should I insult you by telling you what you should already know?

And this is not some who knows more scripture game. It is as serious as life. For that matter, one or two scriptures are all that are needed to understand the truth the way it is supposed to be understood. And a host of scriptures will not necessarily accomplish understanding for anyone. For one can know a lot of scriptures, and understand them all wrong, however well meaning they are.

If I am not of God, I will be judged. If you are not edified, it is not because I have not said what I am supposed to.

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Zeena wrote to Michael Harrison

quote:
God had it backwards, huh?

Totally touche! If God liked to mention those 3 things in that order, God had a very good reason. love, Eden

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Satan likes to talk to the soul from the outside, by way of exciting the body, so as to bypass the spirit of man. One thing Satan does not want to do is to remind man or woman that they have a spiriit.

Now, Lucifer/Satan IS a spirit, so Lucifer/Satan can speak to the spirit of man. But Lucifer/Satan prefers to talk to the soul via the body.

with love, Eden

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Dear Billy, please identify WHO you are quoting to make it easier on all of us. Thanks, Eden

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Dear Billy, please identify WHO you are quoting to make it easier on all of us. Thanks, Eden

Oh I think it is clear to all.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
You might want to rethink it before you correct me. For I'm not sure I 'recognize' your scorn, son?

Sad~ Are you despising this Miltary Mans youth?

Posted by Billy (Member # 7193) on :

quote:
MH said -
Paul said: "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." What did he mean, "Be followers of me?" He had just 'discussed' being puffed up for one over another. Then he seems to point to 'himself' when he says to "Follow me." But what he was saying was "Do as I do, insomuch as he was saying believe what I believe." And the second half of the verse indicates even more closely what one should 'do', for he said, even as I also am of Christ. So he could have said "Be 'of' Christ."

Paul went to great lengths to prove his authority, as an apostle, to the Corinthians. However, you show up on this board and just expect us to accept that what you say comes witht he authority of God. Do you claim to be an apostle? If not, then why do you believe that you can come to this board and tell others what is wrong with them without providing them with the location within the scriptures that you have derived your 'wisdom'?

quote:
MH said -
That is not as simple as 'self-election', to be 'of' Christ.

Are you accusing me, or anyone else on this board for that matter, of having 'elected' ourselves, apart from Christ? From what scriptural basis do you do this? It is apparent, by your words that you are full of contempt for others, rather than love. I've yet to read a post where you disagreed with someone in which you did not cast doubt upon the validity of their salvation. Have you supplanted God? Has he placed you on the judgment seat?

quote:
MH said -
You are looking for something to 'do' when you read my posts. That is why you are looking for the scripture.

You do not know my heart. Are you so full of presumptuousness and divisiveness that you would actually rale against someone regarding the inner workings of their heart? Only God knows the heart of man. Do you believe yourself to be omniscient?

quote:
MH said -
If you were looking for HIM, you would find the verses in scripture, for they are there.

Yet again, you accuse me of not looking for Christ? Read all of my posts, not just the ones that I have posted in response to your venom, and tell me where I have purposefully misquoted or taken the Bible out of context.

quote:
MH said -
But will you obligate me to you?

Where have I heard this before? Oh, I remember...

Genesis 4:9
9 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is Abel your brother?" He said,"I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper?"

Through the grace given us, by Christ, we are obligated to Him and to humanity to expose the scriptures to all. ESPECIALLY to one another. The epistles are repleat with verses that point to the obligation that we have to care for and teach one another, as the body of Christ.

quote:
MH said -
Who cares about body soul and spirit?

That is not how I asked the question. I said, "Who cares about the make up of the body, soul and spirit?" The Bible does not concern itself with explaining the science of these things. It speaks of them as realities, but all doctrines surrounding the exact makeup of them (or how they are constructed or bound together) boil down to mere speculation. All we know is that Christ holds all things together, and we are only spiritually alive through the Spirit of God. This is all that is important.

quote:
MH said -
"The word of God is quick and powerful, sharper than a two edged sword, piercing to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intent of the heart." This says that the word, properly understood pierces to the heart and divides into two, the soul and spirit. What is important about that? It is important enough to put a scripture in the Bible concerning it. I am sorry that you miss it. What else might you miss?

Would you now isolate obscure verses, and take them out of context, in order to come up with a doctrine that you believe to be essential for salvation? Careful, for that is the route of the Watchtower Society and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. If it is your goal to start a cult, you need not stray from your current path, in order to achieve it.

quote:
MH said -
It also says that it is a discerner of the thoughts and intents - of the heart. That means that it reveals what is in the heart. For, what one believes in their heart makes the difference in what they see.

Wrong! That is not what that verse means! The word is the mirror by which we can judge the condition of our hearts. It has nothing to do with what is believed, but in Whom we believe. He will correct our misunderstandings in His due time. The thoughts and intents, not the beliefs, are what is at stake here. Our thoughts and intents are what condemns us. Read the ten commandments. Read what Jesus said regarding the ten commandments. He took them and projected them from the physical, outward acts of obedience to the thoughts and intents within the hearts of the hearers.

Surely you can see in that very verse where the writer of Hebrews is telling his readers that the word of God cuts through all the walls that we build. It cuts through the soul, which is evil in the unbeliever. It cuts through the spirit, which is dead in the unbeliever. And it goes right to the heart. The heart is where God has chosen work with men.

quote:
MH said -
Even better stated, what one believes in their heart, makes the difference in 'who' they see.

Jeremiah 17:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?

Do not rely on your beliefs to determine the condition of your heart. Your beliefs are intellectual, in nature. Thus, this is mere intellectualism. This is nothing more than a conscious choice to live in the realm of philosophy with no real understanding of love. Your heart is the realm of God. It is through our thoughts, intentions and actions that we can determine the condition of our hearts. If our thoughts, intentions and actions do not line up with the Bible, we have no integrity, and He is not in us.

quote:
MH said -
If you are offended there may be a reason that accusing me will not circumvent.

I have not accused you of anything, but have merely pointed out how you have accused others. I further pointed to SCRIPTURE to show you how your methods are unbiblical. I leave the arena of making assumptions and casting accusations to you.

quote:
MH said -
You might want to rethink it before you correct me. For I'm not sure I 'recognize' your scorn, son?

The arrogance in this statement is so blatant that I need not say anything in defense.

quote:
MH said -
If your heart is misguided you will not see the fruit in my words.

Please list for us the fruit of the Spirit, so that we atleast know that you know what they are. As it is, it doesn't appear as though you do. Rather, I see more of the deeds of the flesh, in your posts.

Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

quote:
MH said -
I am however obligated to HIM, to speak them (my words)

That is assuming that they are scriptural, though you don't have a very good track record of providing scriptural support for your 'words'.

quote:
MH said -
My ear is open to you, but my obligation is to Him. If you speak by Him, I will hear. If you do not speak by Him, I will address it, but if you will only hear it wrong, how will you be edified?

Posted by Billy (Member # 7193) on :

quote:
MH said -
Paul said: "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." What did he mean, "Be followers of me?" He had just 'discussed' being puffed up for one over another. Then he seems to point to 'himself' when he says to "Follow me." But what he was saying was "Do as I do, insomuch as he was saying believe what I believe." And the second half of the verse indicates even more closely what one should 'do', for he said, even as I also am of Christ. So he could have said "Be 'of' Christ."

quote:
MH said -
That is not as simple as 'self-election', to be 'of' Christ.

quote:
MH said -
You are looking for something to 'do' when you read my posts. That is why you are looking for the scripture.

quote:
MH said -
If you were looking for HIM, you would find the verses in scripture, for they are there.

quote:
MH said -
But will you obligate me to you?

quote:
MH said -
Who cares about body soul and spirit?

quote:
MH said -
"The word of God is quick and powerful, sharper than a two edged sword, piercing to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intent of the heart." This says that the word, properly understood pierces to the heart and divides into two, the soul and spirit. What is important about that? It is important enough to put a scripture in the Bible concerning it. I am sorry that you miss it. What else might you miss?

quote:
MH said -
It also says that it is a discerner of the thoughts and intents - of the heart. That means that it reveals what is in the heart. For, what one believes in their heart makes the difference in what they see.

quote:
MH said -
Even better stated, what one believes in their heart, makes the difference in 'who' they see.

quote:
MH said -
If you are offended there may be a reason that accusing me will not circumvent.

quote:
MH said -
You might want to rethink it before you correct me. For I'm not sure I 'recognize' your scorn, son?

The arrogance in this statement is so blatant that I need not say anything in defense.

quote:
MH said -
If your heart is misguided you will not see the fruit in my words.

quote:
MH said -
I am however obligated to HIM, to speak them (my words)

That is assuming that they are scriptural, though you don't have a very good track record of providing scriptural support for your 'words'.

quote:
MH said -
My ear is open to you, but my obligation is to Him. If you speak by Him, I will hear. If you do not speak by Him, I will address it, but if you will only hear it wrong, how will you be edified?

Let's take a poll. How many people here think that I have heard MH wrong?

quote:
MH said -
If what I tell you is not true, it is upon me. For no one will escape the error of being wrong. If I am not wrong, the hearer will not escape.

James 3:1
Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

Actually, as James teaches us, the teacher bears the greater responsibility. This is why I ask you to pray before you post, and respond to people in a scriptural, loving manner.

quote:
MH said -
What is wrong with God's children, they all prefer a lie? From whence cometh this evil? Self refuses to die.

Do you really want me to bring up all the scripture on this, as though you don't alreasy know them? Should I insult you by telling you what you should already know?

First of all, you don't know the extent of my Bible knowledge. For a true Christian it would not be an insult to hear scriptural evidence for a biblical doctrine, but a blessing. That's like saying, "This person knows they are a sinner, so should I insult them by using scripture driving home exactly how damned they are in their sins?" This is a no-brainer. Of course I need to use scripture, because many people believe that they are sinners, but most do not know how heavy their sin is, and how it is like a stone tied around their feet that will drag them down to the bottom of the ocean on the day of judgment.

Secondly, your statement is fundamentally flawed. There is no scriptural support for it, because it is unbiblical. God's children believe Him. That's what makes them His children. They seek after truth, and He is Truth. Therefore, I am going to need scriptural evidence for your statement.

quote:
MH said -
And this is not some who knows more scripture game.

If you do not base your comments on scripture, I'd prefer that you don't make them. They will certainly not have any spiritual benefit for anyone if they are not based on scripture. The point is not that you know more scripture, but that you use scripture to shape your thoughts. If you do indeed use scripture to shape your thoughts, it should not hard to find the scripture that backs up your thoughts.

1Peter 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;

quote:
MH said -
It is as serious as life. For that matter, one or two scriptures are all that are needed to understand the truth the way it is supposed to be understood. And a host of scriptures will not necessarily accomplish understanding for anyone. For one can know a lot of scriptures, and understand them all wrong, however well meaning they are.

2 Timothy 3:16
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

quote:
MH said -
If I am not of God, I will be judged. If you are not edified, it is not because I have not said what I am supposed to.

All will work out for the best, according to the will of God, to those that are in His will. I have faith in that.

Posted by Aaron (Member # 3761) on :

Maybe I'm missing something here: It's not clear to me why MH's original post needed corrected. I'm not saying it was a perfect analogy but the zeal behind the corrections doesn't make sense in light of what was written. Indeed, Eden's post seemed like a logical continuation of MH's post.

Can someone help me understand? Perhaps this is a follow-up from another thread?

Aaron

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

Profile for Aaron
Member Status: Advanced Member
Member Number: 3761
Registered: August 15, 2004
Posts: 844
Are you a male or female?: male

Are you a Born again Christian?

Posted by Aaron (Member # 3761) on :

quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Profile for Aaron
Member Status: Advanced Member
Member Number: 3761
Registered: August 15, 2004
Posts: 844
Are you a male or female?: male

Are you a Born again Christian?

Yes.

Now, about my question...

Aaron

Posted by KnowHim (Member # 1) on :

Romans 6
Sin’s Power Is Broken
1 Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more of his wonderful grace? 2 Of course not! Since we have died to sin, how can we continue to live in it? 3 Or have you forgotten that when we were joined with Christ Jesus in baptism, we joined him in his death? 4 For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives.
5 Since we have been united with him in his death, we will also be raised to life as he was. 6 We know that our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin. 7 For when we died with Christ we were set free from the power of sin. 8 And since we died with Christ, we know we will also live with him. 9 We are sure of this because Christ was raised from the dead, and he will never die again. Death no longer has any power over him. 10 When he died, he died once to break the power of sin. But now that he lives, he lives for the glory of God. 11 So you also should consider yourselves to be dead to the power of sin and alive to God through Christ Jesus.

12 Do not let sin control the way you live;[a] do not give in to sinful desires. 13 Do not let any part of your body become an instrument of evil to serve sin. Instead, give yourselves completely to God, for you were dead, but now you have new life. So use your whole body as an instrument to do what is right for the glory of God. 14 Sin is no longer your master, for you no longer live under the requirements of the law. Instead, you live under the freedom of God’s grace.

15 Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law, does that mean we can go on sinning? Of course not! 16 Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living. 17 Thank God! Once you were slaves of sin, but now you wholeheartedly obey this teaching we have given you. 18 Now you are free from your slavery to sin, and you have become slaves to righteous living.

19 Because of the weakness of your human nature, I am using the illustration of slavery to help you understand all this. Previously, you let yourselves be slaves to impurity and lawlessness, which led ever deeper into sin. Now you must give yourselves to be slaves to righteous living so that you will become holy.

20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the obligation to do right. 21 And what was the result? You are now ashamed of the things you used to do, things that end in eternal doom. 22 But now you are free from the power of sin and have become slaves of God. Now you do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:

quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Profile for Aaron
Member Status: Advanced Member
Member Number: 3761
Registered: August 15, 2004
Posts: 844
Are you a male or female?: male

Are you a Born again Christian?
Yes.

Now, about my question...

Aaron

Lines are being drawn as to the Scriptural correctness of some post being made.

Posted by Aaron (Member # 3761) on :

quote:
Originally posted by WildB:

quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:

quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Profile for Aaron
Member Status: Advanced Member
Member Number: 3761
Registered: August 15, 2004
Posts: 844
Are you a male or female?: male

Are you a Born again Christian?
Yes.

Now, about my question...

Aaron
Lines are being drawn as to the Scriptural correctness of some post being made.

Indeed. But I don't understand the importance of the order "Spirit, soul, body" within the context of the thread. I know it is scripturally written "spirit soul body" but is it not ok, when discussing these things, to present them in any order?

I guess, from my perspective, MH wasn't making doctrine out of the order but rather simply presenting them for discussion.

Aaron

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

What came to mind to me with his box within a box was when our ship was in Hong Kong and these little rice boats would come up next to us.

See we didn't have to worry to much about Jihad back then.

But one of the things they had to trade and or sell was little box,s in big box.

Sorry , after seeing that I don't equate my self that way, its a to temporal a way of description.

As a Boiler operator. I equate our trinity much like that of our God.

Fire= Fuel + air + Temperature

Spiritual Fire= Faith + Hope + Love

IMHO these are more scriptural.

1Cor.13

[13] And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
Indeed. But I don't understand the importance of the order "Spirit, soul, body" within the context of the thread. I know it is scripturally written "spirit soul body" but is it not ok, when discussing these things, to present them in any order?

Aaron

God placed it in that order for a reason;

GOD works from the inside out, the WORLD works from the outside in.

Romans 8:15
For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/nee/sprtmnv1/1968v1c1.htm

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
http://www.threshingfloor.org/spiritsoul.htm

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

No speculation Billy! Paul didn’t speculate. Neither should anyone else. You know when you know.

Everything I speak is in love. The contempt is in your imagination. Look around you. People hear Jesus and Paul the same way. Should they have not spoken out?

There is no isolating of obscure verses. I gave you one verse, so that you wouldn’t have more than you could digest. Your ‘railed’ right past it into contempt for the speakers language. I feel the need to reiterated the meaning of the verse. It says that when the word reaches the heart, the evidence that the heart properly heard, is that the body and spirit are divided into two distinct, discernable parts of the believers self. It is the result of the light and life within you being understood.

"If the eye is single, the body will be full of light."

Examine yourself to see if you be in the faith! (Where have I heard that before?)

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Michael Harrison wrote:
body and spirit

Spirit, soul and body!!!

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

God's focus is on the heart. It is God's throne in your life. If HE is not on it, something else is.

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
God's focus is on the heart. It is God's throne in your life. If HE is not on it, something else is.

Book of 2 Samuel
And let it be, when thou hearest the sound of a going in the tops of the mulberry trees, that then thou shalt bestir thyself: for then shall the LORD go out before thee, to smite the host of the Philistines.

Book of Ecclesiastes
For in the multitude of dreams and many words there are also divers vanities: but fear thou God.

Isaiah 29:16
Ye turn things upside down! Shall the potter be esteemed as clay; that the thing made should say of him that made it, He made me not; or the thing formed say of him that formed it, He hath no understanding?

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

God's focus is on the heart. It is God's throne in your life. If HE is not on it, something else is.

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
God's focus is on the heart. It is God's throne in your life. If HE is not on it, something else is.

Matthew 23:22
And he that sweareth by the heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

quote:
The Sword of the Spirit
by Charles haddon Spurgeon
(1834-1892)
Preached on April 19th, 1891

"Take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God."—Ephesians 6:17.

To be a Christian is to be a warrior. The good soldier of Jesus Christ must not expect to find ease in this world: it is a battle-field. Neither must he reckon upon the friendship of the world; for that would be enmity against God. His occupation is war. As he puts on piece by piece of the panoply provided for him, he may wisely say to himself, "This warns me of danger; this prepares me for warfare; this prophesies opposition."

Difficulties meet us even in standing our ground; for the apostle, two or three times, bids us—"Stand." In the rush of the fight, men are apt to be carried off their legs. If they can keep their footing, they will be victorious; but if they are borne down by the rush of their adversaries, everything is lost. You are to put on the heavenly armor in order that you may stand; and you will need it to maintain the position in which your Captain has placed you. If even to stand requires all this care, judge ye what the warfare must be! The apostle also speaks of withstanding as well as standing. We are not merely to defend, but also to assail. It is not enough that you are not conquered; you have to conquer: and hence we find, that we are to take, not only a helmet to protect the head, but also a sword, with which to annoy the foe. Ours, therefore, is a stern conflict, standing and withstanding; and we shall want all the armor from the divine magazine, all the strength from the mighty God of Jacob.

It is clear from our text that our defense and our conquest must be obtained by sheer fighting. Many try compromise; but if you are a true Christian, you can never do this business well. The language of deceit fits not a holy tongue. The adversary is the father of lies, and those that are with him understand the art of equivocation; but saints abhor it. If we discuss terms of peace, and attempt to gain something by policy, we have entered upon a course from which we shall return in disgrace. We have no order from our Captain to patch up a truce, and get as good terms as we can. We are not sent out to offer concessions. It is said that if we yield a little, perhaps the world will yield a little also, and good may come of it. If we are not too strict and narrow, perhaps sin will kindly consent to be more decent. Our association with it will prevent its being so barefaced and atrocious. If we are not narrow-minded, our broad doctrine will go down with the world, and those on the other side will not be so greedy of error as they now are. No such thing. Assuredly this is not the order which our Captain has issued. When peace is to be made, he will make it himself, or he will tell us how to behave to that end; but at present our orders are very different.

Neither may we hope to gain by being neutral, or granting an occasional truce. We are not to cease from conflict, and try to be as agreeable as we can with our Lord's foes, frequenting their assemblies, and tasting their dainties. No such orders are written here. You are to grasp your weapon, and go forth to fight.

Neither may you so much as dream of winning the battle by accident. No man was ever holy by a happy chance. Infinite damage may be done by carelessness; but no man ever won life's battle by it. To let things go on as they please, is to let them bear us down to hell. We have no orders to be quiet, and take matters easily. No; we are to pray always, and watch constantly. The one note that rings out from the text is this:—TAKE THE SWORD! TAKE THE SWORD! No longer is it, talk and debate! No longer is it, parley and compromise! The word of thunder is—Take the sword. The Captain's voice is clear as a trumpet—Take the sword! No Christian man here will have been obedient to our text unless with clear, sharp, and decisive firmness, courage, and resolve, he takes the sword. We must go to heaven sword in hand, all the way. "TAKE THE SWORD." On this command I would enlarge. May the Holy Spirit help me!

It is noteworthy that there is only one weapon of offense provided, although there are several pieces of armor. The Roman soldier usually carried a spear as well as a sword. We have seen frequent representations of the legionary standing upon guard as sentry, and he almost always stands with a spear in his right hand, while his sword hangs at his side. But Paul, for excellent reasons, concentrates our offensive weapon in one, because it answers for all. We are to use the sword, and that only. Therefore, if you are going to this fight, see well to your only weapon. If you are to have no other, take care that you have this always in your hand. Let the Captain's voice ring in your ear, "Take the sword! Take the sword!", and so go forth to the field.

Notice, first, the sword you are to take is the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God. That is our first head; and the second is equally upon the surface of the text: This sword is to be ours. We are ordered to take the sword of the Spirit, and so make it our own sword.

I. First, the Word of God which is to be our one weapon is of noble origin; for IT IS "THE SWORD OF THE SPIRIT." It has the properties of a sword, and those were given it by the Spirit of God.

Here we note that the Holy Spirit has a sword. He is quiet as the dew, tender as the anointing oil, soft as the zephyr of eventide, and peaceful as a dove; and yet, under another aspect, he wields a deadly weapon. He is the Spirit of judgment and the Spirit of burning, and he beareth not the sword in vain. Of him it may be said, "The Lord is a man of war: Jehovah is his name."

The Word of God in the hand of the Spirit wounds very terribly, and makes the heart of man to bleed. Do you not remember, some of you, when you used to be gashed with this sword Sunday after Sunday? Were you not cut to the heart by it, so as to be angry with it? You almost made up your mind to turn away from hearing the gospel again. That sword pursued you, and pierced you in the secrets of your soul, and made you bleed in a thousand places. At last you were "pricked in the heart", which is a far better thing than being "cut to the heart"; and then execution was done, indeed. That wound was deadly, and none but he that killed could make you alive. Do you recollect how, after this, your sins were slain one after another? Their necks were laid on the block, and the Spirit acted as an executioner with his sword. After that, blessed be God, your fears, and doubts, and despair, and unbelief, were also hacked to pieces by this same sword. The Word gave you life; but it was at the first a great killer. Your soul was like a battle-field after a great fight, under the first operations of the divine Spirit, whose sword returneth not empty from the conflict.

Beloved, the Spirit of God has war with the Amalek of evil and error from generation to generation. He will spare none of the evils which now pollute the nations; his sword will never be quiet till all these Canaanites are destroyed. The Holy Spirit glorifies Christ not only by what he reveals, but also by what he overturns. The strife may be weary, but it will be carried on from age to age, till the Lord Jesus shall appear; for ever shall the Spirit of God espouse the cause of love against hate, of truth against error, of holiness against sin, of Christ against Satan. He will win the day, and those who are with him shall in his might be more than conquerors. The Holy Spirit has proclaimed war, and wields a two-edged sword.

The Holy Spirit wields no sword but the Word of God. This wonderful Book, which contains the utterances of God's mouth, is the one weapon which the Holy Ghost elects to use for his warlike purposes. It is a spiritual weapon, and so is suitable to the Holy Spirit. The weapons of his warfare are not carnal: he never uses either persecution or patronage, force or bribery, glitter of grandeur, or terror of power. He works upon men by the Word, which is suitable to his own spiritual nature, and to the spiritual work which is to be accomplished. While it is spiritual, this weapon is "mighty through God." A cut from the Word of God will cleave a man's spirit from head to foot; so sharp is this sword. Though by long practice in sin a man may have coated himself as with mail impenetrable, yet the Word of the Lord will divide the northern iron and the steel. The Holy Ghost can make a man feel the divine power of the sacred Word in the very center of his being. For battling with the spirits of man, or with spirits of an infernal kind, there is no weapon so keen, so piercing, so able to divide between the joints and marrow, so penetrating as to the thoughts and intents of the heart. The Word, in the Spirit's hand, gives no dash-wound, but cuts into the man's heart, and so wounds him that there is no healing save by supernatural power. The wounded conscience will bleed; its pains will be upon it day and night; and though it seek out a thousand medicines, no salve but one can cure a gash which this terrible sword has made. This weapon is two-edged; indeed, it is all edge; and whichever way it strikes, it wounds and kills. There is no such a thing as the flat of the sword of the Spirit: it has a razor edge every way. Beware how you handle it, you critics; it may wound even you: it will cut you to your destruction, one of these days, except ye be converted. He that uses the Word in the Lord's battles may use it upon carnal hopes, and then strike back upon unbelieving fears; he may smite with one edge the love of sin, and then with the other the pride of self-righteousness. It is a conquering weapon in all ways, this wondrous sword of the Spirit of God.

The Word, we say, is the only sword which the Spirit uses. I know the Holy Ghost uses gracious sermons; but it is only in proportion as they have the Word of God in them. I know the Holy Ghost uses religious books; but only so far as they are the Word of God told out in other language. Conviction, conversion, and consolation still are wrought, and only by the Word of God. Learn, then, the wisdom of using the Word of God for holy purposes. The Spirit has abundant ability to speak of his own self, apart from the written Word. The Holy Ghost is God, and therefore he is the greatest spirit in the universe. All wisdom dwells in him. He thought out the laws which govern nature and direct providence. The Holy Spirit is the great teacher of human spirits: he taught Bezaleel and the artificers in the wilderness how to make the fine linen, and the gold and carved work for the tabernacle. All arts and sciences are perfectly known to him, and infinitely more than men can ever discover. Yet he will not use these things in this holy controversy. In the quarrel of his covenant he neither uses philosophy, nor science, nor rhetoric. In contending against the powers of darkness, "The sword of the Spirit is the Word of God." "It is written" is his master-stroke. Words which God has spoken by holy men of old, and has caused to be recorded on the sacred page—these are the battle-axe and weapons of war of his Spirit. This Book contains the Word of God, and is the Word of God; and this it is which the Holy Ghost judges to be so effectual a weapon against evil that he uses this, and this only, as his sword in the great conflict with the powers of darkness.

The Word is the sword of the Spirit because it is of his own making. He will not use a weapon of human workmanship, lest the sword boast itself against the hand that wields it. The Holy Ghost revealed the mind of God to the minds of holy men; he spake the word into their hearts, and thus he made them think as he would have them think and to write what he willed them to write: so that what they spoke and wrote was spoken and written as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. Blessed be the Holy Spirit for deigning to use so many writers, and yet himself to remain the veritable Author of this collection of holy books. We are grateful for Moses, for David, for Isaiah, for Paul, for Peter, for John, but most of all for that superintending Editor, that innermost Author of the whole sacred volume—even the Holy Ghost. A warrior may well be careful as to the make of his sword. If a man had made his own sword, had tempered the metal, had himself passed the blade through many fires, and wrought it to perfection, then, if he were a skillful workman, he would feel confidence in his sword. When work is done nowadays, it is, as a rule, badly done. Work done by contract is usually scamped in some part or another; but when a man does a work for himself he is likely to do it thoroughly, and produce an article which he can depend upon. The Holy Ghost has made this Book himself: every portion of it bears his initial and impress; and thus he has a sword worthy of his own hand, a true Jerusalem blade of heavenly fabric. He delights to use a weapon so divinely made, and he does use it right gloriously.

The Word of God is also the sword of the Spirit because he puts the edge upon it. It is because he is in it that it is so keen and cutting. I believe in the inspiration of Holy Scripture, not only in the day when it was written, but onward, and even to this day. It is still inspired; still doth the Holy Ghost breathe through the chosen words. I told you the sword was all edge; but I would add that the Holy Spirit makes it so. It would have no edge at all if it were not for his presence within it, and his perpetual working by it. How many people read their Bibles, and yet derive no more benefit therefrom than if they had read an old almanack! In fact, they would more easily keep awake over an ancient Bradshaw than over a chapter of Scripture. The ministers of the gospel may preach God's Word in all sincerity and purity, and yet, if the Spirit of God be not present, we might as well have preached mere moral essays, for no good can come of our testimony. The Holy Ghost rides in the chariot of Scripture, and not in the waggon of modern thought. Scripture is that ark of the covenant which contains the golden pot of manna, and also bears above it the divine light of God's shining. The Spirit of God worketh in, by, and through, and with the Word; and if we keep to that Word, we may rest assured that the Holy Ghost will keep with us, and make our testimony to be a thing of power. Let us pray the blessed Spirit to put an edge on our preaching, lest we say much and accomplish little. Hear us in this thing, O blessed One!

It is "the sword of the Spirit" because he alone can instruct us in the use of it. You think, young man, that you can pick up your Bible, and go and preach from it at once, properly and successfully. You have made a presumptuous mistake. A sword is a weapon which may do hurt to the man who flourishes with it in mere wanton pride. No one can handle the sword of the Spirit aright save the chosen man whom God hath ordained from before the foundation of the world, and trained in feats of arms. By this the elect of God are known—that they love the Word of God, and they have a reverence for it, and discern between it and the words of man. Notice the lambs in the field, just now; and there may be a thousand ewes and lambs; but every lamb finds out its own mother. So does a true-born child of God know where to go for the milk which is to nourish his soul. The sheep of Christ know the Shepherd's voice in the Word, and a stranger will they not follow, for they know not the voice of strangers. God's own people have discernment to discover and relish God's own Word. They will not be misled by the cunning craftiness of human devices. Saints know the Scriptures by inward instinct. The holy life, which God has infused into believers by his Spirit, loves the Scriptures, and learns how to use them for holy purposes. Young soldier, you must go to the training-ground of the Holy Spirit to be made a proficient swordsman. You will go in vain to the metaphysician or to the logician; for neither of these knows how to handle a spiritual weapon. In other arts they may be masters; but in the sacred use of diving theology they are mere fools. In the things of the Word we are dunces till we enter the school of the Holy Ghost. He must take of the things of Christ, and show them unto us. He must teach us how to grip this sword by faith, and how to hold it by watchfulness, so as to parry the adversary's thrust, and carry the war into the foeman's territory. He is well taught who can swing this great two-handed sword to and fro, and mow a lane through the midst of his opponents, and come out a conqueror at the end. It may take a long time to learn this art; but we have a right skillful Teacher. Those of us who have been in this warfare thirty or forty years feel that we have not yet reached the full use of this sword; nay, I know for one, that I need daily to be taught how to use this mysterious weapon, which is capable of so much more than I have yet supposed. It is the sword of the Spirit, adapted for the use of an Almighty arm, and therefore equal to the doing of far more than we think. Holy Spirit, teach us now feats of arms by this thy sword!

But, chiefly, it is the sword of the Spirit, because he is the great Master in the use of it. Oh, that he would come and show us this morning how he can thrust and cleave with it! In this house of prayer we have often seen him at his work. Here the slain of the Lord have been many. We have seen this sword take off the head of many a Goliath doubt, and slay a horde of cares and unbeliefs. We have seen the Spirit pile up heaps on heaps of the slain when the Word of conviction has gone forth, and men have seen sin to be sin, and fallen down as dead before the Lord and his law. We also know what the use of the sword by the Spirit of God means, for within our own being he has left marks of his prowess. He has killed our doubts and fears, and left no more mistrusts to worry us. There was a man of God who was frequently subject to doubts, even doubts upon the fundamentals of religion. He hated this state of mind; but still he could not get rid of the habit of evil questioning. In answer to prayer, the Spirit came, and convinced him of the pride of his intellect, and of the wickedness of setting up his judgment against the Word of the Lord; and from that day forward he was never the subject of another fit of unbelief. He saw things clearly in the light of the Holy Spirit; and that is to see them indeed. The great giant of doubt is sorely wounded by the sword of the Spirit—yea, he is slain outright; for the Spirit works in the believer such a conviction of the truth that assurance banishes suspicion. When the Holy Spirit deals with the lusts of the flesh, and the lusts of the eye and the pride of life, these also lie at his feet, trophies to the power of his mighty weapon, even the Word of God! The Holy Spirit is glorious in the use of this sword. He finds that this weapon suits his hand, and he seeks no other. Let us use it also, and be glad to do so. Though it is the sword of the Spirit, yet our feebler hand may grasp it; yea, and find in the grasping that somewhat of the divine power comes unto our arm.

Dear brethren, is it not a very high honor put upon you, as soldiers of the cross, that you should be allowed, nay, commanded to take the sword of the Spirit? The raw recruit is not trusted with the general's sword; but here are you armed with the weapon of God the Holy Ghost, and called upon to bear that sacred sword which is so gloriously wielded by the Lord God himself. This we are to bear, and no other. Does the timid heart enquire, "Wherewithal, my Master, shall I meet my adversaries"? "Here," saith the Holy Ghost, "take this! This is my own sword; I have done great marvels with it; take it, and nothing shall stand against you." When you remember the potency of this sword, when the Spirit tests it upon yourself, you may take it with confidence, and use it in your holy war with full assurance. That Word of God which could convert you, can convert anybody; if it could kill your despair, it can remove another man's despondency; if it has conquered your pride and self-will, it can subdue the like in your children and your neighbors. Having done what it has certainly done for you, you may have a full persuasion that, before its power, no case is hopeless. Wherefore, see to it, that you use from this day forth no other weapon than the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God.

II. This fairly lands me in the second portion of my discourse. The Word of God is the sword of the Spirit; but IT IS ALSO TO BE OUR SWORD.

Here I must begin again, and go over much the same ground. We shall need a sword. Our warfare is not child's play: we mean business. We have to deal with fierce foes, who are only to be met with keen weapons. Buffets will not suffice in this contest; we must come to sword-cuts. You may be of a very quiet spirit, but your adversaries are not so. If you attempt to play at Christian warfare, they will not. To meet the powers of darkness is no sham battle. They mean mischief. Nothing but your eternal damnation will satisfy the fiendish hearts of Satan and his crew. You must take not so much a flag to unfurl, or a drum to beat, as a sword to use, and a specially sharp sword too. In this combat you will have to use a sword such as even evil spirits can feel, capable of dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow. If you are to live through this fight, and come off victorious, no form of conflict will suffice less sharp and cutting than sword-work. Depend upon it that in this struggle you will be forced to come to close quarters. The foe aims at your heart, and pushes home. A spear will not do, nor bow and arrow; the enemy is too near for anything but hand-to-hand fighting. Brethren, our foes are not only of our house, but of our heart. I find an enemy within which is always near, and I cannot get away from him. I find that my antagonist will get his hand on my throat if he can. If our foes were far away, and we could play upon them with artillery which would kill at six or seven miles' distance, we might lead a pretty easy life. But no; they are here! At our doors! Yea, within us; nearer than hands and feet. Now for the short sword: the claymore of Holy Scripture, to stab and cut, near and now. No sling and stone will avail us here, but we must take the sword. You have to slay your foe, or your foe will slay you. It is with us Christians as it was with the Highlanders in battle, when their leader called out to them, "Lads, there they are! If you dinna kill them they will kill you." There is no room for peace: it is war to the knife, not only now, but to life's end.

The use of the sword is needful for attack. I have reminded you several times already that it will not suffice for the Christian to guard against sin, and ward off temptation from himself; he has to assail the powers of evil. In our case, the best method of defense is an attack. I have heard of one who would bring an action in law to gain his ends, for he thought this better than being the defendant. That may be matter of question; but in war it is often safer to assail than defend. Carry the warfare into the enemy's territory. Be trying to win from the adversary, and he will not win so much from you. Do not merely be sober yourselves, but attack drunkenness. Do not be content with being from superstition yourself, but expose it wherever it appears. Do not merely be devout when you feel obliged to be so, but pray for the growth of the kingdom; pray always. Do not merely say, "I will keep Satan out of my family by bringing up my children aright", but go to the Sunday-school, and teach other children, and so carry the war over the border. God forbid that we should ever go to war as a nation! But if we were at war with some nation on the Continent, I should certainly say, "Let the continentals have the battles on their own ground: we do not want a campaign over here." It is wise to keep the war in the enemy's own regions. If we had fought the devil more in the world, he might never have been able to invade the church so terribly as he has done. Attack with the sword, for it is your calling, and thus will you best defend yourself.

We need the sword for real fighting. Do you think that you can dream yourselves into heaven? or ride there in the chariot of ease? Or fly on the wings of brass music? You make a great mistake if you so imagine. A real war is raging, your opponents are in deadly earnest, and you must take your sword.

And, further, we need this sword: this sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God. We say with David, "There is none like that; give it me." It has wrought such wonders that we prefer it to all others. No other will match the enemy's weapon. If we fight the devil with human reason, the first time our wooden sword comes in contact with a Satanic temptation it will be cut in pieces. If you do not wield a true Jerusalem blade you are in grave peril; your weapon will break off at the hilt, and where will you be? Standing defenceless, with nothing but the handle of a broken sword in your hand, you will be the object of your adversary's ridicule. You must have this sword, for no other will penetrate the foe, and no other will last out the battle. After twenty years, what has become of the pious resolutions of your youth? What is the staying power of your consecration made in the hour of enthusiasm? Alas, how little trust can be placed in it! What would become of us after thirty years of fighting, if we had not the Word of God to rely upon? The Word of the Lord endureth for ever; but nothing else does. We may do well in early days, but we shall fail in old age if we have not eternal verities to fall back upon.

I can commend this sword to you all, my brethren, although you are so varied in character. This sword suits every hand. Youth or age may alike use this weapon. These dear girls from the Orphanage, and yonder lads from the Bible-class, may fight the battle of their youth with the Word of God; for Holy Scripture may impress and guide our freshest life. You that have grown grey, you that have passed seventy or eighty, you will value the Bible more than ever, and you will find that this sword is the best for veteran warriors. Young men and young women, here is a sword suited for all of you, and well does it become the hand of the feeblest and the gentlest. The Holy Ghost has in the sacred Word prepared an implement of warfare suited for great minds and small, for the cultured and the uneducated. A wonderful sword this is, which, in the hand of faith, reveals an adaptation marvellous to the last degree.

Whatever others may say, it is sufficient for us that this is the regulation sword. A soldier is not left to choose his own equipment; he must carry such arms as his sovereign appoints. This is the regulation sword in Christ's army. The sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God, is what you are bidden to take; and if you in wilfulness resolve to exchange it for another, you commit an act of rebellion, and you make the change at your own risk and peril. Come, then, let us each one take the Word of God, and carry it nearer our hearts than ever; for such is the word of command, "Take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God."

Now, see what we are told to do. We need a sword; we need this sword; we are to take this sword. Note that we are not told that we may lay it down: the demand to take the sword is continuous, and there is no hint of its being suspended. There is a time, of course, when the soldier of her Majesty may remove his sword from his side, and put off his regimentals; there is never such a time with a Christian. One might have thought, from what we have seen of late, that orders had come from headquarters that the soldiers were to lay down the sword of the Spirit, the Word of God, and take to lighter weapons. Entertainments, amusements, farces, and sing-song are now used to do what the gospel has failed to achieve! Is it not sadly so? Well, if any will try these silly toys, I can only say that they have no command from their Lord to warrant them in their proceedings. Take all these things, and see what they will do; but you make the trial at your own risk, and on your own heads the result of failure will fall.

The standing-orders are to take the sword of the Spirit, and no new regulation has ever been issued by the great Captain of salvation. From the days of Paul till now, the word stands, "Take the sword of the Spirit." All other things will surely fail, and hence the one sole abiding command is, "Take the sword of the Spirit." We are not told to hang up this sword for exhibition. Certain people have a handsomely-bound Bible to lie upon the table of the best room; and a fine ornament it is. A Family Bible is a treasure. But I pray you do not let your love of the Bible end there. With a soldier in war, a sword is not meant to be hung up in the tent, nor even to be flourished in the air; but it is issued to be used. Nor are we to push this sword into a sheath, as many do who take the Bible, and add so much of criticism, or of their own opinion to it, that its edge is not felt. Many men use their low opinion of inspiration as a scabbard into which they push the Bible down. Their vast knowledge makes a beautiful scabbard, and they push down the sword, saying, "Keep still there! O sword of the Lord, rest and he quiet!" After we have preached our heart out, and men have felt the power of it, they make a desperate effort to imprison the Word in their unbelieving theory, or in their worldliness. They hold down the Word all the week with a firm hand, for fear its edge or point should wound them. It is the scabbard of culture, or philosophy, or of progress, and in this they shut up the living Word of God as in a coffin.

We are not to bury the Word under other matters; but we are to take it as a sword: which means, as I understand it, first, believe it. Believe every portion of it; believe it with a true and real faith, not with a mere credal faith, which says, "This is the orthodox thing." Believe it as a matter of fact for every day, affecting your life. Believe it. And when you have believed it, then study it. Oh, for a closer study of the Word of God! Are there not some of you who have never even heard or read all that the Lord has said? Are there not passages of the Bible which have never been read by you? It is a melancholy fact that there should be even a line of the sacred Scriptures which has never once come under your eye. Do read the Bible right through, from beginning to end. Begin tomorrow: nay, begin to-day, and go steadily through the whole of the sacred books, with prayer and meditation. Never let it be suspected by you that God has recorded truths in his Word which you have never even once read. Study the Word, and work out its meaning. Go deep into the spirit of inspiration. He gets most gold who digs the deepest in this mine. They used to say of certain mines in Cornwall that the deeper you went the richer was the ore; assuredly is it so with the mines of inspired Scripture. The deeper you go under the Spirit's guidance the larger is the reward for your toil. Take the sword with the grip of sincere faith; hold it fast by a fuller knowledge, and then exercise yourself daily in its use. The sword is to be taken for earnest fight. You will not be long before occasion arises in such a world as this. You will have to parry with it, to pierce with it, to cut with it, and to kill with it. "Where shall I begin?" says one. Begin at home, and, for many a day, you will have your hands full. When you have slain all the rebels at home, and long before that, you may take a turn at those around you in the world, and in the professing church. Inside your own heart you will find a band of bandits which should be exterminated. There will always be need to keep the sword going within your own territory. End this civil war before you go into foreign parts. When the war within the city of Mansoul has been victoriously carried through, besiege the heart of your friend, your child, your neighbor. Behold, the world lieth in the wicked one! Errors abound, and colossal systems of falsehood still stand aloft. Men are still dragged down by the arch-deceiver. Surely, we feel our swords flying out of their sheaths when we think of the millions who are being ruined by sin and error. Oh, for a mighty onslaught upon the powers of darkness!

Once more, we are to take this sword with a purpose. We are to use it that we may be able to stand and to withstand. If you want to stand, draw the sword, and smite your doubts. How fiercely unbelief assails! Here comes a doubt as to your election. Pierce it through with the Word. Anon comes a doubt as to the precious blood. Cleave it from head to foot with the assurance of the Word that the blood of Jesus cleanseth us from all sin. Here comes another doubt, and yet another. As quick as arm can move, drive texts of Scripture through every new fallacy, every new denial of truth, and spit the whole of them upon the rapier of the Word. It will be for your good to kill these doubts outright. Do not play with them, but fight them in real earnest. You will find that temptations also will come in hordes. Meet them with the precepts of sacred Writ, and slay even the desire of evil by the Spirit's application of the Holy Word. The washing of water by the Word is a glorious cleanser. Discouragements will arise like mists of the morning. Oh, that God's Word may shine them away with the beams of the promises! Your afflictions multiply, and you will never be able to overcome impatience and distrust except by the infallible Word of God. You can bear trial, and bear it patiently, if you use this weapon to kill anxiety. You will "stand fast in the evil day", and having done all, you will still stand, if this sword be in your hand.

You have not only to stand fast yourselves, but you have to win souls for Christ. Do not try to conquer sin in others, or capture a heart for Jesus, except with the sword of the Spirit. How the devil laughs when we try to make converts apart from Holy Scripture and the Holy Spirit! He laughs, I say; for he derides our folly. What can you do, you children, playing with your little wooden swords—what can you do against men covered from head to foot with the steel mail of the habit of sin? Sunday-school teachers, teach your children more and more the pure Word of God; and preachers, do not try to be original, but be content to take of the things of Christ, and show them to the people; for that is what the Holy Ghost himself does; and you will be wise to use his method and his sword. No sinner around you will be saved except by the knowledge of the great truths contained in the Word of God. No man will ever be brought to repentance, to faith, and to life in Christ, apart from the constant application of the truth through the Spirit. I hear great shouting, great noises everywhere, about great things that are going to be done: let us see them. The whole world is going to be embraced within the church; so they say. I fear the world will not be much the better for inclusion in such a church. Big boasters should heed the word of the wise man, "Let not him that girdeth on his harness boast himself as he that putteth it off." If the champion goeth forth with any other sword than the Word of God, he had better not boast at all; for he will come back with his sword broken, his shield cast away, and himself grimy with dishonor. Defeat awaits that man who forsakes the Word of the Lord.

I have done when I have asked you to remember that the text is in the present tense: Take unto you the sword of the Spirit even now. What varieties of people there are here this morning! Believers have come hither in all sorts of perils; let them each one take the sword of the Spirit, and they will overcome every foe. Here, too, are seekers who wish to be Christians; but they cannot compass it. What is the matter this morning? "Oh," says one, "I have been in the habit of sinning, and the habit is very strong upon me." Fight with sinful habits with the Word of God, as the sword of the Spirit: so only will you conquer your evil self. Find a text of Scripture that will cleave your sin down to the chine, or stab it to the heart. "Alas! Satan tempts me horribly," cries one; "I have been lately assailed in many ways." Have you? You are not the first. Our divine Lord in the wilderness was tempted of the devil. He might have fought Satan with a thousand weapons; but he chose to defeat him with this one only. He said, "It is written; it is written; it is written." He pricked the foeman so sorely with this sharp point, that the arch-adversary thought to try the same sword; and he also began to say, "It is written." But he cut himself with this sword, for he did not quote the passages correctly, nor give the whole of them; and the Master soon found the way to knock aside his sword, and wound him still more. Follow your Lord's example. "Oh, but," says one," I am so low in spirits." Very well; fight lowness of spirits with the Word of God. "The doctor recommended me," says one, "to take a little spirits to raise my spirits." Those doctors are always having this sin laid to their charge. I am not so sure that they are not often maligned. You like the dose, and that is why you take it. Try the Word of God for lowness of spirits, and you will have found a sure remedy. I find, if I can lay a promise under my tongue, like a sweet lozenge, and keep it in my mouth or mind all the day long, I am happy enough. If I cannot find a Scripture to comfort me, then my inward troubles are multiplied. Fight despondency and despair with the sword of the Spirit. I cannot tell what your particular difficulty may be at this moment; but I give you this direction for all holy warfare—"Take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God." You must overcome every enemy; and this weapon is all you need. If you, my hearer, would overcome sin and conquer unbelief, take such a word as this, "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth;" and as you look you shall be saved, and doubt shall die, and sin be slain. God grant you his Spirit's aid, for Christ's sake! Amen.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
It is clear from our text that our defense and our conquest must be obtained by sheer fighting.

Fighting will only cause one to 'lose' ground. Bless you so for trying zeena. And what a quotable speaker you have chosen to post! But even he said that one is to 'stand'. That is where it stops! For anything one does, past standing, such as fighting, gives way to the enemy. For it disables God by 'trying to help HIM'.

But don't misquote me. Things are 'trying'. There is no ease in that. There is however in standing, because, HE is the one who accomplishes our victory. Not us!

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

Read a few paragraphs and called it a day huh?

Posted by Aaron (Member # 3761) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zeena:

quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
Indeed. But I don't understand the importance of the order "Spirit, soul, body" within the context of the thread. I know it is scripturally written "spirit soul body" but is it not ok, when discussing these things, to present them in any order?

Aaron
God placed it in that order for a reason;

GOD works from the inside out, the WORLD works from the inside in.

Romans 8:15
For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/nee/sprtmnv1/1968v1c1.htm

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
http://www.threshingfloor.org/spiritsoul.htm

Yes. Yes. I get that.
But it doesn't seem like MH is making a doctrine out of the order, does it?

You don't have to answer. I'm just saying I fail to see the point of substantive contention. [Confused]

Aaron

P.S. Is it the addition of the "heart" that is so bothersome?

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

Then why the defensive stance?

Why not just accept the Word of God and get on with it? [Confused]

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zeena:
Then why the defensive stance?

Defense is the best offense.

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Originally posted by WildB:

quote:
Originally posted by Zeena:
Then why the defensive stance?

Defense is the best offense.

Ok, so then why the offensive backbiting?

2 Kings 19:22
Whom hast thou defied and blasphemed? and against whom hast thou exalted thy voice and lifted up thine eyes on high? even against the Holy One of Israel.

LOVE the avatar Wild B! [Big Grin]

Posted by Billy (Member # 7193) on :

quote:
MH said -
Everything I speak is in love.

I along with most on this board beg to differ. You may feel as though you speak with love, because you share with us your personal insights and understandings, and then tell us that we should doubt our salvation if we disagree with them. However, there is no saving word, except the gospel. From what I've seen you post on a wide array of topics, rarely touching on the biblical gospel, and regarding every one of your topics, if someone disagrees with you, you charge them with the accusation that they are probably not in right standing with God. What do you base this on? It is certainly not love. Do you even have a church home and a pastor that you submit to and learn from? Read this...

1Corinthians 13

1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes (that is, love), the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Read that last part again...

quote:
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

We abide in faith, hope and love. Not a superior knowledge. Unlike the Jehovah's Witnesses, we do not claim that a prerequisite of eternal security is found in how much knowledge we gain. To the contrary, this passage teaches that we will not know half a percent of everything until we die and go to be with the Lord. Yet, you have over and over again cast doubt on people's salvation, because they disagree with your logic on non-essential doctrine. When will you heed the words of those that have a genuine concern for proper church discipline to be prevalent on this website?

In Christ,
Billy.

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

2 Corinthians 6:11-13
Our mouth is open unto you, O Corinthians, our heart is enlarged. Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own affections. Now for a recompense in like kind (I speak as unto my children), be ye also enlarged.

2 Corinthians 7:2
Open your hearts to us: we wronged no man, we corrupted no man, we took advantage of no man.

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Originally posted by WildB:

quote:
Originally posted by Zeena:
2 Corinthians 7:2
Open your hearts to us: we wronged no man, we corrupted no man, we took advantage of no man.
Stand Down, Let MH call his own strikes and balls.

2 Corinthians 5:13-15
For whether we are beside ourselves, it is unto God; or whether we are of sober mind, it is unto you. For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that one died for all, therefore all died; and he died for all, that they that live should no longer live unto themselves, but unto him who for their sakes died and rose again.

2 Corinthians 12:15
And I will most gladly spend and be spent for your souls. If I love you more abundantly, am I loved the less?

Posted by Billy (Member # 7193) on :

Oh, wise Solomon. I wonder if there was ever a word that he was offended by or that he would not consider, no matter how much it cut him to the core. Were a man to rebuke Solomon, would he have scorned him, or taken the man's words to heart? Were a man to give biblical counsel to him, would he not have accepted it graciously?

Proverbs 1:5
A wise man will hear and increase in learning, And a man of understanding will acquire wise counsel,

Proverbs 10:8
The wise of heart will receive commands, But a babbling fool will be ruined.

Proverbs 12:15
The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, But a wise man is he who listens to counsel.

Proverbs 13:1
A wise son {accepts his} father's discipline, But a scoffer does not listen to rebuke.

Proberbs 13:10
Through insolence comes nothing but strife, But wisdom is with those who receive counsel.

Proberbs 17:10
A rebuke goes deeper into one who has understanding Than a hundred blows into a fool.

Proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he keeps silent, is considered wise; When he closes his lips, he is {considered} prudent.

Proverbs 19:20
Listen to counsel and accept discipline, That you may be wise the rest of your days.

Proverbs 26:5
Answer a fool as his folly {deserves,} That he not be wise in his own eyes.

Proberbs 26:12
Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.

Proverbs 27:5
Better is open rebuke Than love that is concealed.

Ecclesiastes 10:12
Words from the mouth of a wise man are gracious, while the lips of a fool consume him;

In Christ,
Billy.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Not at all Billy! I am not telling anyone to 'doubt' their salvation. I am telling them that there is a deeper, and more wonderful revelation of their salvation, which cannot begin to be described.

I don't believe that I am talking to anybody here who is not saved, I think. (Well, maybe one!) I merely am talking about, is it Jesus who lives, or you? It is a 'next step' thing for those who would get out of the nursery (homerun!!!), which God is calling all believers to do (don't sit there and get offended!, and where did you get that I was trying to tell people that they weren't saved?)

Zeena posted someone's writings who mentioned what one denomination put out there in the form of a question, "What 'would' Jesus do?" Of course, this implies that Jesus is past tense and we are on our own to 'figure it out'. But HE said that they will really know Him on that day, which is now. So the question is actually, "What will you do?" We can look directly to Him and ask Him that. Or, "What are you doing?" We are after all, 'led', not as some suppose, 'left on our own'.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Not at all Billy! I am not telling anyone to 'doubt' their salvation. I am telling them that there is a deeper, and more wonderful revelation of their salvation, which cannot begin to be described.

So are are you one of them Second Blessing types?

I think you say Jesus is accursed if you don't think you got it all when you first believed.

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Not at all Billy! I am not telling anyone to 'doubt' their salvation. I am telling them that there is a deeper, and more wonderful revelation of their salvation, which cannot begin to be described.

I don't believe that I am talking to anybody here who is not saved, I think. (Well, maybe one!) I merely am talking about, is it Jesus who lives, or you?

Romans 6:8
But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him;

quote:
Michael Harrison wrote:
It is a 'next step' thing for those who would get out of the nursery, which God is calling all believers to do (don't sit there and get offended!, and where did you get that I was trying to tell people that they weren't saved?)

Zeena posted someone's writings who mentioned what one denomination put out there in the form of a question, "What 'would' Jesus do?" Of course, this implies that Jesus is past tense and we are on our own to 'figure it out'. But HE said that they will really know Him on that day, which is now. So the question is actually, "What will you do?" We can look directly to Him and ask Him that. Or, "What are you doing?" We are after all, 'led', not as some suppose, 'left on our own'.

2 Corinthians 13:3-4
seeing that ye seek a proof of Christ that speaketh in me; who to you-ward is not weak, but is powerful in you: for he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth through the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him through the power of God toward you.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Exactly wb. Only, second blessing means different things to different people. And some, although extremely few, get the 'second blessing' when they get saved. And that means that they are 'privy' to it from the beginning.

Don't get me wrong. You do get is all when you get saved - but you don't get it. In otherwords, it is there, but you don't realize it and walk in it. This was as a matter of fact the 'experience' of Paul. He was 'changed' from glory to glory, though, he got it all when he was saved.

So the bottom line is that there is more. Seek for it. Or as has been noticed about me in my pressing the parable of the talents, you will end like the one who got only one talent, who suffered for it. You can take this to the bank, lest you doubt me, but I can not make you convinced. But there is someone who "Has ears to hear," if it is not you.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Exactly wb. Only, second blessing means different things to different people. And some, although extremely few, get the 'second blessing' when they get saved. And that means that they are 'privy' to it from the beginning.

Don't get me wrong. You do get is all when you get saved - but you don't get it. In otherwords, it is there, but you don't realize it and walk in it. This was as a matter of fact the 'experience' of Paul. He was 'changed' from glory to glory, though, he got it all when he was saved.

So the bottom line is that there is more. Seek for it. Or as has been noticed about me in my pressing the parable of the talents, you will end like the one who got only one talent, who suffered for it. You can take this to the bank, lest you doubt me, but I can not make you convinced. But there is someone who "Has ears to hear," if it is not you.

Then you call Christ accursed. For I and the Manny got all when we first believed.

We don't need to go to Florida , we don't need your sillyness to be fulfilled.

Jesus is with us at that moment of 1st call.

Don't you remember Danial when He prayed?

Im shur you know the Scripture.

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Hi, Zeena, you said

quote:
GOD works from the inside out, the WORLD works from the inside in.

Hi, beloved of God, RE the bolded word, you probably meant from the "outside" in? Perhaps you will want to edit that. love, Eden

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

EDEN am i wrong?

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Hi, Zeena, you said
quote:
GOD works from the inside out, the WORLD works from the inside in.
Hi, beloved of God, RE the bolded word, you probably meant from the "outside" in? Perhaps you will want to edit that. love, Eden

Yes, thanks, sorry!

All better now! [Smile]

'inside in' [pound]

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

WildB said

quote:
EDEN am i wrong?

I don't see no dirt on your baseball uniform right now, so I'm sure only your feet need washing. And I do like your Cornelius Stam posts. Be blessed. Eden

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

God bless you too my brother.

Phil.1

[6] Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Well, you don't speak for everyone, though I'm I'm sure you feel absolutely certain you do. And do you not turn ev-er-y-thing into an argument? All I want to do is post for the benefit of those who believe that there is more to Him, for which I am sure that there are those who do believe. I have related solid testimony besides my own, to this, and will again, no doubt. And by the way:

quote:
[6] Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Nice quote! If He 'began' a work in you, that means that He started! It doesn't mean that you realize the fullness of it the day that you receive Jesus. It also says in that passage that He will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. Perhaps He meant that He will perform it until you get it! (You is plural here, meaning 'all yall'!) But He, who is in Paul, did say that "From glory to glory HE is 'changing' me." That means that we come into a deeper revelation of HIM. That means that you didn't just 'get it' one day, and that is it until the other side of the River Jordan. In fact I believe He indicates in a lot of places that you better get it here, however much there is, cause you will live with it over there, unless you didn't get it here.

He, moreover, is the Author, and Finisher, of our faith. Coming to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ can be likened to its being 'Authored'. Where then is the finished product of our faith? Did we get the finished product when we were saved? What about our coming to:

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

This may refer to the whole body, but it has to happen individually before it is recognizable corporately.

You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink. You can show someone a scripture, but you cannot make them think.

"For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water." (Jer 2:13)

I submit that your digression holds no water, (not meaning to continue the argument). And you had better seek the Lord while HE may be found. And if that means going to Florida, I would do it!

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Is that a work of the Spirit or the flesh, that pawing and snorting? It is a nice emo tho.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

Are You calling me a "emo"?.

I wish David would let me show you some love

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Cool shades dude! (Or are those blinders?) Emo is short for emoticon (neverminding other meanings). It rhymed with 'tho'.

Ten-four. Copied!

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Cool shades dude! (Or are those blinders?) Emo is short for emoticon (neverminding other meanings).

Shame on you Michael. You know I told you I was badly BURNED in my eyes while in service to our country?

Stop your sillyness.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
Not at all Billy! I am not telling anyone to 'doubt' their salvation. I am telling them that there is a deeper, and more wonderful revelation of their salvation, which cannot begin to be described.

I don't believe that I am talking to anybody here who is not saved, I think. (Well, maybe one!) I merely am talking about, is it Jesus who lives, or you? It is a 'next step' thing for those who would get out of the nursery (homerun!!!), which God is calling all believers to do (don't sit there and get offended!, and where did you get that I was trying to tell people that they weren't saved?)

Zeena posted someone's writings who mentioned what one denomination put out there in the form of a question, "What 'would' Jesus do?" Of course, this implies that Jesus is past tense and we are on our own to 'figure it out'. But HE said that they will really know Him on that day, which is now. So the question is actually, "What will you do?" We can look directly to Him and ask Him that. Or, "What are you doing?" We are after all, 'led', and not as some suppose, 'left on our own'.

I don't read Proverbs much. Thanks for the short list.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by WildB:

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Not at all Billy! I am not telling anyone to 'doubt' their salvation. I am telling them that there is a deeper, and more wonderful revelation of their salvation, which cannot begin to be described.

So are are you one of them Second Blessing types?

I think you say Jesus is accursed if you don't think you got it all when you first believed.

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

Just faithfully quoting you and my Lord [Wink]

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Not at all Billy! I am not telling anyone to 'doubt' their salvation.

quote:
Michael Harrison wrote:
That is the resurrection of the 'old man'. That is what happens when we sin.

It is what happened to Adam in the garden. He stepped out of the light. He was spiritually dead, though not mentally or emotionally yet. That took time. But he was at that point, alive to self. He was evil, knowing the way of God, and the way of self serving, which for him was necessary for survival at that point.

1 Corinthians 15:45
So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

2 Corinthians 3:6
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

quote:
Michael:
What is wrong with God's children, they all prefer a lie? From whence cometh this evil? Self refuses to die.

Romans 14:4
Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

James 4:11-12
Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

quote:
Michael:
I am concerned for you. You run hot, then cold? Do I have it right or don't I?

Matthew 7:3
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

Romans 9:21-23
Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,

quote:
Michael:
It is your unbelief

Galatians 5:4-6
Ye are severed from Christ, ye would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace. For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.

quote:
Michael:
You have a hearing problem.

Isaiah 42:19
Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I send? who is blind as he that is at peace with me, and blind as Jehovah's servant?

Acts 4:19
But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it is right in the sight of God to hearken unto you rather than unto God, judge ye:

quote:
Michael:
You think you have a little knowledge and you overlook the truth!

2 Corinthians 2:15-17
For we are a sweet savor of Christ unto God, in them that are saved, and in them that perish; to the one a savor from death unto death; to the other a savor from life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as the many, corrupting the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God, speak we in Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:20-29
Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For seeing that in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom knew not God, it was God's good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe. Seeing that Jews ask for signs, and Greeks seek after wisdom: but we preach Christ crucified, unto Jews a stumblingblock, and unto Gentiles foolishness; but unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For behold your calling, brethren, that not many wise after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong; and the base things of the world, and the things that are despised, did God choose, yea and the things that are not, that he might bring to nought the things that are: that no flesh should glory before God.

quote:
Michael:
Your authority nill. Will you practice witchcraft?

Mathew 16:16-19
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Acts 19:15
And the evil spirit answered and said unto them, Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are ye?

quote:
Michael:
If someone wants to argue, well (shrug)! It shows what they are about.

John 9:4
We must work the works of Him Who sent Me and be busy with His business while it is daylight; night is coming on, when no man can work.

John 8:12
Again therefore Jesus spake unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life.

John 12:35
Jesus therefore said unto them, Yet a little while is the light among you. Walk while ye have the light, that darkness overtake you not: and he that walketh in the darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

quote:
Michael:
do you not 'promote yourself' in claiming to be a defender of the way?

Jeremiah 1:19
They will fight against you but will not overcome you, for I am with you and will rescue you," declares the LORD.

Isaiah 44:1-8
Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant, and Israel, who I have chosen: Thus saith Jehovah that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, who will help thee: Fear not, O Jacob my servant; and thou, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen. For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and streams upon the dry ground; I will pour my Spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring: and they shall spring up among the grass, as willows by the watercourses. One shall say, I am Jehovah's; and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe with his hand unto Jehovah, and surname himself by the name of Israel.
Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God. And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I established the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and that shall come to pass, let them declare. Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have I not declared unto thee of old, and showed it? and ye are my witnesses. Is there a God besides me? yea, there is no Rock; I know not any.

quote:
Michael:
For the sake of those like Billy, here is another simple one liner

Job 36:10
He openeth also their ear to instruction, And commandeth that they return from iniquity.

John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard from the Father, and hath learned, cometh unto me.

1 Thessalonians 4:8-12
Therefore he that rejecteth, rejecteth not man, but God, who giveth his Holy Spirit unto you. But concerning love of the brethren ye have no need that one write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another; for indeed ye do it toward all the brethren that are in all Macedonia. But we exhort you, brethren, that ye abound more and more; and that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your hands, even as we charged you; that ye may walk becomingly toward them that are without, and may have need of nothing.

quote:
Michael:
Do you not profess yourselves to be wise?

Romans 1:22-23
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

Deuteronomy 32:47
For it is no empty word for you, but your very life, and by this word you shall live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to possess.

quote:
Michael:
This is kindergarden, no?

Hebrews 5:12
In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!

Hebrews 6:1-3
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.

quote:
Michael:
What profit is in this immaturity?

Zechariah 6:12
and speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh Jehovah of hosts, saying, Behold, the man whose name is the Branch: and he shall grow up out of his place; and he shall build the temple of Jehovah;

Ephesians 4:15
but speaking truth in love, we may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, even Christ;

quote:
Michael:
Everything I speak is in love.

1 John 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.

1 John 2:4-6
The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

1 Corinthians 3:3
You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men?

quote:
Michael:
If your heart is misguided you will not see the fruit in my words.

Romans 3:4
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control; against such there is no law.

quote:
Michael:
For no one will escape the error of being wrong.

Romans 8:15
For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Hebrews 12:6-
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, And scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. It is for chastening that ye endure; God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father chasteneth not? But if ye are without chastening, whereof all have been made partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Furthermore, we had the fathers of our flesh to chasten us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed good to them; but he for our profit, that we may be partakers of his holiness. All chastening seemeth for the present to be not joyous but grievous; yet afterward it yieldeth peaceable fruit unto them that have been exercised thereby, even the fruit of righteousness.
Wherefore lift up the hands that hang down, and the palsied knees; and make straight paths for your feet, that that which is lame be not turned out of the way, but rather be healed.
Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord: looking carefully lest there be any man that falleth short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby the many be defiled; lest there be any fornication, or profane person, as Esau, who for one mess of meat sold his own birthright. For ye know that even when he afterward desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected; for he found no place for a change of mind in his father, though he sought is diligently with tears. For ye are not come unto a mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, and the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard entreated that no word more should be spoken unto them; for they could not endure that which was enjoined, If even a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned; and so fearful was the appearance, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake: but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable hosts of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better than that of Abel.
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not when they refused him that warned them on earth, much more shall not we escape who turn away from him that warneth from heaven: whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more will I make to tremble not the earth only, but also the heaven.
And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that those things which are not shaken may remain. Wherefore, receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us have grace, whereby we may offer service well-pleasing to God with reverence and awe: for our God is a consuming fire.

quote:
Michael:
one or two scriptures are all that are needed to understand the truth

Philippians 2:16
holding forth the word of life; that I may have whereof to glory in the day of Christ, that I did not run in vain neither labor in vain.

quote:
Michael:
And a host of scriptures will not necessarily accomplish understanding for anyone.

2 Timothy 3:15-17
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

quote:
If you are not edified, it is not because I have not said what I am supposed to.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

quote:
Michael:
I gave you one verse, so that you wouldn’t have more than you could digest.

Acts 20:27
For I shrank not from declaring unto you the whole counsel of God.

quote:
Michael Harrison wrote:
I have to come to the conclusion that you are deceived. Your spirit is mocking. Your attitude is wrong! There is no humility, only piousness. And you agree with the wrong people, and seem to live to fault what I say (though it is of no consequence). In other words, you are strange. I keep thinking we might find mutual ground, but it apparently isn't there. When the Antichrist comes, will he be Anti Christ? Not, I tell you! He will be for Christ. He will sound like he is 'for' Christ.

Isaiah 45:11-12a
"This is what the LORD says— the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker: Concerning things to come, do you question me about my children, or give me orders about the work of my hands?
It is I who made the earth and created mankind upon it.

Isaiah 43:25-27
I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake; and I will not remember thy sins. Put me in remembrance; let us plead together: set thou forth thy cause, that thou mayest be justified. Thy first father sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed against me.

Ezekiel 21:24
Therefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Because ye have made your iniquity to be remembered, in that your transgressions are uncovered, so that in all your doings your sins do appear; because that ye are come to remembrance, ye shall be taken with the hand.

Ezekiel 29:16
And it shall be no more the confidence of the house of Israel, bringing iniquity to remembrance, when they turn to look after them: and they shall know that I am the Lord Jehovah.

-----------------

Romans 15:14-16
And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another. But I write the more boldly unto you in some measure, as putting you again in remembrance, because of the grace that was given me of God, that I should be a minister of Christ Jesus unto the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be made acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

Luke 22:19
And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and gave to them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Dear Michael Harrison, I think that if you exchanged the "you" and "your" form of writing in your posts and instead used "I" and "me", then your posts will be much better received.

I think that because your posts are so "you" and "your" people feel like you are telling them that they "should all change and be more like you".

But if you share "what is true for you" in the "I" and "me" form of writing, then people may want to "imitate" what has happened to you.

Rather than "you should do this" and "you should do that", the "I" and "me" form is a non-threatening way of writing and "sharing" form of writing posts from which others can then take what they like, if anything, and leave the rest, rather than having to sit through "you" and "your" (but very few "I" and "my" in all your posts?

Try using more "I" and "my" in your posts (it will take a little practice if you are used to writing in the "you" and "your" form), but it will solve the argument problem that "your" posts tend to engender. (Few people, including few Chritians, want to be TOLD what to do by another human being (except we don't mind being told by the God of Israel and by His Son Jesus).

Try using more "I" and "my" form more in your posts (it will take a little practice if you are used to doing it), and your posts will generate much less resistance. [Big Grin]

love, Eden
"I", not "you" [type]

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Perhaps Eden. Of course, I often elaborate that I am using 'you' in the plural, meaning whomever. Maybe your motion will stand under those circumstances also. And maybe they will just find another way to defraud me. No matter. They cannot 'stand' before Him and do so. They fall by the very act of doing so, and don't see it. (You said this before somewhere.)

But I am not standing on sinking sand. And I will be buffeted. I am not concerned about me, but those who attend, who don't participate. For if this is what the Christian faith is, they must say, who would want it? All I am trying to communicate however is that He is our strength. No one said it would be easy. You often hear that. But He is worth it, and at the same time that it isn't easy, it nevertheless is. For He is our provision and He overlooked nothing. But one has to seek to find Him, and the provision. Rather, though, they seek to 'do it' on their own, consequently they live in failure, meanwhile accusing or excusing.

Should I say "I" or "ME"? Not if i am not preaching to myself. And if anyone having itching ears would rather hear another gospel, let them. I have shared honestly, and if any dissagree, yet the straight and narrow is for me. Sorry they couldn't hear.

If anyone says that they are dead, and they constantly assault, wrest with, or confront another, they should reconsider. It is one thing to plead the case for Christ, and another to mock. God, I assure you, doesn't mock, not even His enemies.

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Michael Harrison said

quote:
I am not concerned about me, but those who attend, who don't participate.

Dear brother, in any church there are people in the pew and people who are leading the church with teaching. In the case of this BBS, the people in the pew of this BBS (the 80 guests) are blessed to have at least 15 or so active teachers and preachers. Your concern should be with teaching the people in the pew, and not with why the people in the pew are not participating MORE like you would have them to do. God has His pew sitters and God has His teachers.

To repeat what you said said

quote:
I am not concerned about me, but those who attend, who don't participate.

If there were no pew sitters, you would be out of a teaching job.

love, Eden

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Michael Harrison said

quote:
Should I say "I" or "ME"? Not if i am not preaching to myself.

The best way to preach and teach is by sharing what is true for YOU, instead of what we SHOULD do. Sharing what has happened to YOU in the "I" and "me" form gives people the personal freedom to decide FOR THEMSELVES what they like and imitate or will not bother with.

People don't like being TOLD what to do (except by our God) so when I share what's true for me, I'm not telling anyone what to do, I'm just sharing and do with it whatever YOU want to, I don't care, it's not up to me...I'm just sharing what has happened to ME in Christ...as WildB would say, That's all!

with love, Eden
"the LORD is a sweet Person"

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Michael Harrison also said

quote:
If anyone says that they are dead, and they constantly assault, wrest with, or confront another, they should reconsider.

Yes, they should. But they will NOT reconsider if YOU tell THEM what they SHOULD DO. But they MAY reconsider when you share with them the wonderful experience you had when the day came when "I, Michael Harrison, died", for instance. If it was and is beautiful for YOU, Michael Harrison, those who are "dead" and "constantly assault", may "reconsider" indeed, when THEY are not told WHAT to do, but rather when THEY see how glorious YOU have it now, then they may RECONSIDER?

love, Eden
"So you want to change the world?"

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Perhaps, perhaps! I don't know how I sound. It is hard to hear one's self. But not to compare myself with Paul, but didn't he 'tell' them what to do? And what about Jesus. Did not HE? And what is the golden rule of the Kingdom? Humble thyself. So, just as you have admonished me, and I put it in my head for consideration, to discover if it is so, it works the same for all. For with out that element, we cannot find the truth. This is where Jesus talks about becoming as a child. It is a humble thing. This is where Jesus talks about the eye of needle. It is a humbling thing, for to go through it (a hole in the wall of Jerusalem) a man had to dismount his camel, and remove the burden from him. Then the camel had to get on its knees in order to go through the needle (the hole in the wall). So the rule of the Kingdom is if not on your knees, you will not receive.

I do not mean to Lord anything over anyone. I must say that stringent times are ahead, and one would be wise to consider, especially as I have given sound scripture to provoke the thought process, since beginning to post here. But I cannot force anyone. I merely plead, though some, if not most, perhaps even all, see it as coercion. I simply try to encourage thought. And the deliniation of the boundries is etched in stone, and not negotiable, for it is the narrow way. But! The narrow way, once discovered, is wide open. It is full of love. It is chocked with wisdom. It is secure, and it has a description, "The Abundant Life." So you disagree with me. Ok! But if you ever go through the "Eye of Needle" you will find my words to be true! I can testify! I don't lie. You will know sweet by and by.

Posted by Billy (Member # 7193) on :

quote:
MH wrote -
But not to compare myself with Paul, but didn't he 'tell' them what to do?

Paul was an apostle who performed many signs and wonders, in the name of Jesus Christ, in order glorify the Lord and validate his claim to apostleship. On top of that, the early church still tested his claims in light of scripture. In much of his writings, he quoted scripture. As an apostle, he had the added advantage of speaking not for himself, but the Holy Spirit spoke through him.

Unless you can verify some kind of apostleship, I would say that you are correct in that it is not wise to compare yourself to Paul. We quote Paul, and we model ourselves after Paul, in that we quote the scriptures, in context, and they do the correcting for us. None of us is high. None of us is holy. Thus, answer and exhort one another in love, and leave the work of changing the mind to the Holy Spirit.

In Christ,
Billy.

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

Jeremiah 2:35
you say, 'I am innocent; he is not angry with me.' But I will pass judgment on you because you say, 'I have not sinned.'

Then quote our Lord, and let God Himself tell us what is right!

Romans 12:19
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.

It is not right for us to pass judgment! [mad2]

Ezekiel 17:24
And all the trees of the field shall know that I am the LORD; I bring low the high tree, and make high the low tree, dry up the green tree, and make the dry tree flourish. I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it."

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Oh, I just caught that Eden. No! I was not inviting the pew to attend. I was stating that the circus that goes on is not edifying to them. ???

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without[outside the church]? do not ye judge them that are within[the body]?

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
The best way to preach and teach is by sharing what is true for YOU, instead of what we SHOULD do. Sharing what has happened to YOU in the "I" and "me" form gives people the personal freedom to decide FOR THEMSELVES what they like and imitate or will not bother with.

In reality Eden, I am telling them what 'not' to do. Perhaps your conscience is bothering you, which is right on. But to counter what you have said, I am in fully line with the word to:

Heb 3:13 "Exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin."

Deceitfulness of sin is such that one may expect to be accepted, pardoned, condoned, or tolerated in a condition which is opposed to the word of God, in a settng wherin people are gathered, in which case one is as 'leaven' to those around them. (Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?) No! I am expected to expound, even while such as Billy are seeking a seal of mine apostleship.

Remember that Jesus said that they 'stoned' the apostles and prophets, because the truth was hard on their ears. It hasn't changed.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
Paul was an apostle who performed many signs and wonders, in the name of Jesus Christ, in order glorify the Lord and validate his claim to apostleship. On top of that, the early church still tested his claims in light of scripture. In much of his writings, he quoted scripture. As an apostle, he had the added advantage of speaking not for himself, but the Holy Spirit spoke through him.

Unless you can verify some kind of apostleship, I would say that you are correct in that it is not wise to compare yourself to Paul. We quote Paul, and we model ourselves after Paul, in that we quote the scriptures, in context, and they do the correcting for us. None of us is high. None of us is holy. Thus, answer and exhort one another in love, and leave the work of changing the mind to the Holy Spirit.

You say that he spoke not of himself, but the Holy Spirit spoke through him. But in the beginning of the paragraph you make it sound like Paul performed the miracles to glorify the Lord, and magnify his office??? That would be contrary to all that Paul wrote. And on "No one is Holy!

Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

I am sad to see that you would rather not comply with this! Modeling ourselves after Paul is not going to do it either. But on letting the Holy Spirit change the minds, how will one be saved except a preacher is sent. (Rom 10:15) And who is it that convicts and changes the mind? The Holy Spirit does. And does one 'participate'?

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

Rom 12:16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

Php 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

Rom 15:15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,

1Pe 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

[Cross]

It is equally your calling both to know, and to convince! I'm not special.

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Michael Harrison wrote

quote:
In reality Eden, I am telling them what 'not' to do.

Oh, I think they already know what 'not' to do. What they need to know now is "what to do'.

Has the Holy Spirit not told your spirit what to tell them to do?

love, Eden

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Michael Harrison, sometimes I wonder whose side you are on. But, anyway, you said

quote:
I am sad to see that you would rather not comply with this! Modeling ourselves after Paul is not going to do it either.

Behold the words of the apostle Paul, ordained by Jesus Himself to be an apostle and minister of God the uncircumcision:

1 Corinthians 4:16
Wherefore I beseech you, be you followers of me.

1 Corinthians 11:1
But be you followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

So let me repeat what you said, Michael Harrison:

quote:
I am sad to see that you would rather not comply with this! Modeling ourselves after Paul is not going to do it either.

Revelation 12
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation and strength and the kingdom of our God and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.I do model myself after what Paul said, and also after what Jesus said, and after what the other apostles said.

Exodus 34:27
And the LORD said to Moses, Write these words, for after the tenor of these words have I made a covenant with you and with Israel.

with love, Eden

Posted by Billy (Member # 7193) on :

quote:
MH wrote -
And on "No one is Holy!

Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

I am sad to see that you would rather not comply with this!

So, in essence, you are stating that you have fully complied with these verses? Holiness means to be set apart, pure and blameless. Are you holy, according to your own deeds? Or do you strive to attain holiness, yet fall short, as the truly contrite will admit that they often do? Read Romans 6. Paul was not perfect in deed, even after his conversion. Though, he did strive to be, as we all should. Read 1John 1. The apostle John tells believers that if they say that they do not sin, they make God a liar. We are not holy in our deeds. We are to strive for holiness. There is a difference.

quote:
MH wrote -
But on letting the Holy Spirit change the minds, how will one be saved except a preacher is sent. (Rom 10:15)

John 15:26&27
26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, 27 and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning."

John 16:7-11
7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged."

We work with the Holy Spirit in testifying about our Lord. We testify with words. The Holy Spirit convicts and convinces. What then? Shall we now supplant the Holy Spirit and assume His job as our own?

1Corinthians 3:5-7
4 For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not mere men? 5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.

So, was it Paul that did the convincing, here? Or was it Apollos?

In Christ,
Billy.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
So, in essence, you are stating that you have fully complied with these verses? Holiness means to be set apart, pure and blameless. Are you holy, according to your own deeds? Or do you strive to attain holiness, yet fall short, as the truly contrite will admit that they often do? Read Romans 6. Paul was not perfect in deed, even after his conversion. Though, he did strive to be, as we all should. Read 1John 1. The apostle John tells believers that if they say that they do not sin, they make God a liar. We are not holy in our deeds. We are to strive for holiness. There is a difference.

Oh the wisdom of Paul when he told Timothy that he had to be patient, and apt to teach.

quote:

Holiness is by faith. I can tell you scripture, but it will not translate into fact. (This is why I have slowed on quoting it. Besides, someone will inevitably want to outquote you and mess up the simple purity of the moment.) This statement is verifiable by the word to the open mind. And I testify not of myself when I say this.

So! You are referring not to Romans six, but seven and verses fourteen and fifteen perhaps. These are the most misquoted and most misunderstood verses in the Bible, I think. Paul is positioning himself for reference. He is not saying that 'he helplessly does' those things he is not supposed to, in spite of the Spirit of God. He is supposing, for the sake of trying to explain the gift of God, which is life, which is in its exactness (some would call it Holiness) is not doing those things that he would otherwise. Yet in the carnal stage, in the natural stage of one's development, the Christian sees this as justification for not measuring up. Not so. God is your ability to measure up. (Some call this Holiness.)

And to make one more try at explaining this, Paul is saying that this is what happens when, or if, he tries to 'keep' the law, apart from doing so by faith. He is saying that if he 'tries' to keep the law, he will "not measure up." His very trying proves him out to 'need a savior'.

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Here he is saying that he lives unto God, or he lives unto himself. To live unto God is to find one's self living beyond sin. What is sin? It is transgressing God.

If you read the rest of Romans, you will see verses like this:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

For, if you walk after the spirit, something will happen:

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

This verse clearly explains that Paul was not helpless to walk after the flesh, which is failure, or 'not measuring up'. For what is not measuring up? It is fulfilling the lusts of the flesh, which 'steals' one's Holiness.

Romans is so full it is very hard to keep it short.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Righteousness is 'fulfilled' in us! That means it is 'fulfilled' in us, which clearly would have to be written, 'failure is fulfilled in us', if the way you understand what Paul said in chapter seven is the correct way to interpret it.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

They who walk after the spirit (meaning they understand what it means) experience life - His life. For 8:6 says that to be carnally minded is death. That means that one 'does not measure up'. It means that they are seperated from Him, effectively, by not understanding faith. Therefore they are in a sense 'dead', which is a strong term Paul used. Nevertheless it is accurate. It simply means that they are 'out of fellowship', with God. It doesn't mean that they are not saved.

The problem is that they are using their carnal way of thinking. That means that they are not broken. They are not 'in the Spirit'. They are not functioning the way He enables them to by His Spirit. It is the state of the Christian, apart from faith.

Here it explains further that he is not helpless. He does so by stating the condition of 'if', that we may see the results. Results! Is that not what we are after?

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

1 John 1: is the same. It is a recap of what Paul said, in a lethal dose to the old man.

1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

To walk in darkness is to sin. It is to succumb. It is to justify failure as though God does not lift us out of it. Scripture says HE does.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

We have to admit our sin. That is it! We are hopelessly sinful 'apart from Him'. That is not true when we abide in Him, as the next verse verifies.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

We walk in the light. Marvelous! (Sounds like a Geico commercial). So, the condition is that if we 'walk in the light' His blood cleanses us from our sin. See! It says "All sin." And it continues as long as we continue to walk in the light.

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Billy:
Read Romans 6. Paul was not perfect in deed, even after his conversion.

Yet, the Scripture is the inspired Word of God, written in Paul's hand, yes?

Scripture is without error, yes?

Ergo, Paul was perfect in deed because of what, or should I say whom?

Even while he was striving with sin.

quote:
Originally posted by Billy:
Though, he did strive to be, as we all should.

I do not accept this interpretation because we do not merrit holiness, there's only One who is Holy, and we recieve His Holiness by Grace through faith.

Galatians 1:9-16
As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

quote:
Originally posted by Billy:
Read 1John 1. The apostle John tells believers that if they say that they do not sin, they make God a liar.

That's not what my Bible says.. :

1 John 1:8 KJV
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

What version are you quoting?

quote:
Originally posted by Billy:
We are not holy in our deeds.

Nor can we be, but the Spirit of God is HOLY, and as we submit to Him for His Holy Life, being filled with the fullness of God in Christ Jesus, so too, He Lives His Holy Life in and through us! [Big Grin]

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Galatians 5:25
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Ephesians 5:17
Wherefore be ye not foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. And be not drunken with wine, wherein is riot, but be filled with the Spirit; speaking one to another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord; giving thanks always for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father; subjecting yourselves one to another in the fear of Christ.

Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

quote:
Originally posted by Billy:
We are to strive for holiness. There is a difference.

Philippians 3:13-14
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

quote:
Originally posted by Billy:
We work with the Holy Spirit in testifying about our Lord. We testify with words. The Holy Spirit convicts and convinces. What then? Shall we now supplant the Holy Spirit and assume His job as our own?

If we testify with words of ourselves the Lord is not obligated to back them up with Power!

He does, because He is. [Smile]

quote:
Originally posted by Billy:
1Corinthians 3:4-7
4 For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not mere men? 5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.

So, was it Paul that did the convincing, here? Or was it Apollos?

In Christ,
Billy.

It was, is and always will be God.

Posted by Billy (Member # 7193) on :

quote:
MH wrote -
Holiness is by faith. I can tell you scripture...

Please do. I know that many things do come by faith. I know that Abraham was credited with righteousness, because of his faith. This is not to say that he was righteous in thought and deed. It is only to say that he was in a right standing with God, because of his faith. Likewise, when we put faith in Christ, we are put in a right standing with God, though we are not fully perfected until the resurrection.

quote:
MH wrote -
I can tell you scripture, but it will not translate into fact. (This is why I have slowed on quoting it. Besides, someone will inevitably want to outquote you and mess up the simple purity of the moment.)

This is what I'm talking about. Your words have no value if they are not backed up by scripture. If scripture (God's word) cannot convince someone, what do you expect your words to do? Do you have more faith in your words than God's?

quote:
MH wrote -
This statement is verifiable by the word to the open mind.

Then use the word. If I came to a sword fight bragging about my sword and it's capabilities, but I left my sword at home, I would be cut to shreds. Use your sword, man! Cut me. If what you say is true, I want to be cut by it.

quote:
MH wrote -
You are referring not to Romans six, but seven and verses fourteen and fifteen perhaps.

Thank you for pointing this out. I often get them confused, because I read through 6, 7 & 8 always at the same time. These three chapters are so continuous in their flow that I actually wish they weren't broken up into separate chapters.

quote:
MH wrote -
So! You are referring not to Romans six, but seven and verses fourteen and fifteen perhaps. These are the most misquoted and most misunderstood verses in the Bible, I think. Paul is positioning himself for reference. He is not saying that 'he helplessly does' those things he is not supposed to, in spite of the Spirit of God. He is supposing, for the sake of trying to explain the gift of God, which is life, which is in its exactness (some would call it Holiness) is not doing those things that he would otherwise. Yet in the carnal stage, in the natural stage of one's development, the Christian sees this as justification for not measuring up. Not so. God is your ability to measure up. (Some call this Holiness.)

And to make one more try at explaining this, Paul is saying that this is what happens when, or if, he tries to 'keep' the law, apart from doing so by faith. He is saying that if he 'tries' to keep the law, he will "not measure up." His very trying proves him out to 'need a savior'.

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Here he is saying that he lives unto God, or he lives unto himself. To live unto God is to find one's self living beyond sin. What is sin? It is transgressing God.

If you read the rest of Romans, you will see verses like this:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

For, if you walk after the spirit, something will happen:

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

This verse clearly explains that Paul was not helpless to walk after the flesh, which is failure, or 'not measuring up'. For what is not measuring up? It is fulfilling the lusts of the flesh, which 'steals' one's Holiness.

Romans is so full it is very hard to keep it short.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Righteousness is 'fulfilled' in us! That means it is 'fulfilled' in us, which clearly would have to be written, 'failure is fulfilled in us', if the way you understand what Paul said in chapter seven is the correct way to interpret it.

Here is the error in your interpretation:

Paul, in Romans 7, is referring to the nature of man and the nature of the Spirit. By nature (flesh), man is sinful and not holy. Even after the grace of salvation has been bestowed upon him, man is not holy. However, through the grace of God, we walk with the Spirit. In as much as we walk with the Spirit, we have Christ in us, and visa versa. In as much as we have Christ in us, we walk with the Spirit. This does not make us holy, in nature, however. It only allows us to be put in a right standing (righteousness) with God.

There is a reason why Paul does not use the term righteousness in the verses where he is talking about holiness. Equally, there is a reason why Paul does not use the term holiness when he is talking about righteousness. They are two completely different terms with two completely different meanings. One means to be set apart, pure and blameless. The other means that we are put in a right standing with God. Do you fancy yourself blameless, by deed, even your current deeds? Surely not! However, we will have an advocate on the day of judgment, after which, we will be given our gloried bodies and made perfect.

quote:
MH wrote -
1 John 1: is the same. It is a recap of what Paul said, in a lethal dose to the old man.

1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

To walk in darkness is to sin. It is to succumb. It is to justify failure as though God does not lift us out of it. Scripture says HE does.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

We have to admit our sin. That is it! We are hopelessly sinful 'apart from Him'. That is not true when we abide in Him, as the next verse verifies.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

We walk in the light. Marvelous! (Sounds like a Geico commercial). So, the condition is that if we 'walk in the light' His blood cleanses us from our sin. See! It says "All sin." And it continues as long as we continue to walk in the light.

Do you confess your sin, daily? Or are you of the mindset that your sin has already been paid for, so why bother? Just curious.

In Christ,
Billy.

Posted by Billy (Member # 7193) on :

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Billy:
Read 1John 1. The apostle John tells believers that if they say that they do not sin, they make God a liar.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
Zeena wrote -
That's not what my Bible says.. :

1 John 1:8 KJV
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

What version are you quoting?

Read a bit further...

1John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. KJV

It is the same in the translation that I commonly us, which is the NASB. I also like the NKJV. You will not see much deviation between these three versions. The NKJV is an updated version of the KJV, and the NASB is an updated version of the ASV, which originally served as an updated version of the KJV, as well.

The main difference between them all is the manuscripts used. The NKJV and NASB use all of the currently accepted manuscripts, and where there are verses left out, they are usually put in the footnotes with an explanation as to why they were left out. Usually it has to do with the fact that the verses show up in some later manuscripts, but are left out in the earlier ones.

It's always good to read the translators' notes at the front of your Bible in order to understand what texts are being used, what methods of interpretation are being used, the history of the progression in translation and the basis for why it was interpreted the way that it was interpreted. The KJV is a good version. The language is severely outdated, but there are only a few words that I have contention with, from my (limited) understanding of Hebrew and Greek.

In Christ,
Billy.

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Billy wrote to Michael Harrison

quote:
Do you confess your sin, daily? Or are you of the mindset that your sin has already been paid for, so why bother? Just curious.

For me, at least, it is both. I am of the mindset that my sin has already been paid for, but when I commit new sin, say while driving when I tend to commit the most sins, then I also tell the Lord I'm sorry for this new sin. So for me, it's both, and not either or.

love, Eden

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

There is no error in my interpretation. That was number one. Number two: Holiness and Righteousness are the same. I am sorry to say that your assertion is feeble. And I have already cut you, but you don't know it. Look! I have used scriptures, and you cannot see them for what they are. How will you benefit if I use more? Dare I be suckered into some challenge that becomes a war of words? You would be wise to receive what has been said. Moreover, my words can just be thought of as a paraphrase of scripture. The reason one might do that is that they communicate the intent contained in scripture.

quote:
Please do. I know that many things do come by faith. I know that Abraham was credited with righteousness, because of his faith. This is not to say that he was righteous in thought and deed. It is only to say that he was in a right standing with God, because of his faith. Likewise, when we put faith in Christ, we are put in a right standing with God, though we are not fully perfected until the resurrection.

quote: MH wrote -
I can tell you scripture, but it will not translate into fact. (This is why I have slowed on quoting it. Besides, someone will inevitably want to outquote you and mess up the simple purity of the moment.)

This is what I'm talking about. Your words have no value if they are not backed up by scripture. If scripture (God's word) cannot convince someone, what do you expect your words to do? Do you have more faith in your words than God's?

Abraham was righteous in 'thought and deed'. If one takes the position that you have, that one witholds him or herself while trying to get something from God. It will not work. It would be self-righteousness, or merited righteousness the way you explain it. For it would be 'earned' by faith, rather than realized by faith. We are 'realize' by faith.

Scripture says that "With the heart we believe unto righteousness." That does not say unto right standing. It says we believe unto righteousness! Righteousness is a way of thinking and behaving towards, or better yet, 'by' God. That is a lot to commprehend if we simply stop there. But we believe in "Being created unto righteousness," or good works, which is the same (another scripture take note).

We believe in "Putting on righteousness." It means that we think and behave righteously (in His eyes, for remember, even Jesus was Himself seen as a rebel and a sinner by the impure eyes of the worldly.) It means that we do not have to abide in transgression in thought, word or deed. It is a what would Jesus do sort of thing. When we have His life, what HE would think and do, so do we. If you doubt me, here's scripture: "We have the mind of Christ." That is straight forward verse, such that if one is acutely aware that they don't, they are in error, not the word. The understanding simply has not become the understanding that He would have us to have.

But people rationalize it like you did with Abraham. Abram 'believed' God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. What he believed went beyond the fact that God would raise Issac crom the dead. He believed something deeper about God that changed him. The result was that he believed that God would raise Issac from the dead, but in fact he believed that God would "Provide Himself a sacrifice," which if one reads, they will find Abraham telling Issac before he carried Issac to the out back. So he believed what Jesus would 'do', which accounted for His righteousness. Then he understood righteousness; for it is 'what Jesus does'. And that is where it lies. When we believe what HE did on the cross, and is doing 'as a result of His dying on the cross, we realize something which is beyond ourselves.

So, I don't need to quote 'lots' of scripture. One single verse will accomplish its work if we do not rationalize it, which means to make it fit our carnal understanding. He brings our understanding to Him. When we try to bring understanding down to the way we think, to the 'only possible thing it could be' as far as we can tell, we miss Him. It is another example of how our best effort is not good enough.

If scripture says that we believe unto righteousness, it means that we become so by faith. It means that we minister His righteousness by our actions. If it says that the Blood of Jesus clanses us of all sin, it isn't fooling around. And if we try to rationalize it, (make it to fit our understanding) we completely water it down until it is useless. We try to becom acceptable as we are, such that we do not sense His need to change us, which He does, if we have truly believed in Him. Otherwise we are still seeking.

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Billy:
Likewise, when we put faith in Christ, we are put in a right standing with God, though we are not fully perfected until the resurrection.

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

What do you do with that Scripture then?

For indeed, there is another verse in which Paul states;NOT as though I've already attained..

The sanctification of God's elect is three fold;
Spirit, soul and body [Wink]

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Ah, Michael Harrison, please add who you are talking to (Billy in this case) so as not to confuse the people in the pew and other staff members. You also said to Billy

quote:
Abraham was righteous in 'thought and deed'. If one takes the position that you have, that one witholds him or herself while trying to get something from God. It will not work. ... For it would be 'earned' by faith, rather than realized by faith. We are to 'realize' by faith.

Eventhough Abraham was mostly righteous in "thought" and "deed", Abraham was nonetheless a sinner and counted among those of whom the LORD said:

Romans 11:32
For God has concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Galatians 3:22
But the scripture has concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them who believe.

God said that "Abraham believed" and "it" (his belief) was "counted to him for righteousness".

So it was NEVER Abraham's good deeds that earned Abraham an exchange for righteousness, but ONLY because Abraham had "believed God" and "it was counted to him for righteousnes":

Romans 4:3
For what says the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it (his belief) was counted unto him for righteousness.

Not his "good" works, but "his belief".

You then continued:[quotedIt would be self-righteousness, or merited righteousness the way you explain it. For it would be 'earned' by faith, rather than realized by faith. We are 'realize' by faith.[/quote]I do think it was "earned by faith"; it certainly wasn't earned "by works", not even in Abraham's case:

Romans 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him who calls).

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

To God, Abraham's works were "as good as dead":

Ephesians 2:1
And you has He quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them; and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

John 3:15
That whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 8:24
I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you do not believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.

So to repeat what you said, Michael Harrison:

quote:
Abraham was righteous in 'thought and deed'. If one takes the position that you have, that one witholds him or herself while trying to get something from God. It will not work. ...For it would be 'earned' by faith, rather than realized by faith. We are to 'realize' by faith.

Righteousness is indeed EARNED earned by faith ALONE. ("Realizing" is what is done in New Age.)

love, Eden

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Search for "realize" and "realized in the KJV turned up the following:

"Realize" or "Realized"

quote:
No results found.
No results were found for realize pr realizedin the version(s):King James Version.
Try refining your search using the form above.

You can find more about refining searches and using the search form effectively, visit the frequently-asked questions page.

But, to be fair to you, Michael Harrison, no results were found for earn or earned in the KJV either. [Big Grin]

love, Eden

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Billy:
1John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. KJV

Thank you!

quote:
Billy:
It is the same in the translation that I commonly us, which is the NASB. I also like the NKJV. You will not see much deviation between these three versions. The NKJV is an updated version of the KJV, and the NASB is an updated version of the ASV, which originally served as an updated version of the KJV, as well.

Not imo, they are both downgraded versions of the originals..

http://www.dtl.org/versions/book/verses-1.htm
http://www.lastdaysprophecy.org/L_D_bible_prophecy.htm

Even the KJV [the most true to form version] has errors I've been informed of, praise God! They translate spirit for soul on a few occasions, which is why it's prudent to study the originals;

http://studylight.org/lex/

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Eden! You know the biggest difference between now, and before the full revelation of who He is, is that now I realize, in a situation like you described, that I didn't have to sin. I fully and completely understand what you are saying. The auto is a great place to excercise our 'lack' of faith. I, like you have a couple of sore spots. But my reaction does not come from Christ. Here is the point, if I am dead, I don't act like that. How am I dead? I am dead through faith. That means simply ""That I am trusting God."" When I am trusting God, then I am dead, and my behavior will come from Him.

Well, what is trusting God? When you let Him be in control, all the way in control, then that jerk that just peeved you, is in His hand. God is Lord, It was no accident. Consider it God's design.

Peter said, "Consider it not strange the fiery trial that is to try you." And that was it! Here again we have a "What would Jesus do?" situation. For HE has a response, and He is within you. SO you yield to Him, or you yield to self. You live unto Him, or unto self. And it is much easier to let Him be in control. And in His wisdom, He has a posture for you that you may be blessed by Him, and potentially, someone else too. That means that if you rest in Him, HE is doing something, which He will express through, or you will benefit from.

"That the trial of our faith being more precious than gold..."

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Eden:
Galatians 3:22
But the scripture has concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them who believe.

There that faith OF God again! woot!

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Eden! You know the biggest difference between now, and before the full revelation of who He is

Nobody has the full revelation of who He is except Himself this side of the grave..

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

quote:
Michael:
When you let Him be in control, all the way in control, then that jerk that just peeved you, is in His hand. God is Lord, It was no accident. Consider it God's design.

So then, if your truly abiding then why do you judge that man a jerk?

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
For indeed, there is another verse in which Paul states;NOT as though I've already attained..

Not as thought I had already attained...

...resurrection from the dead!

Has nothing to do with sanctification. If there was anything Paul preached it was sanctification.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

What planet are you from Eden??? But thank you for being fair to me in a later post.

Now:

quote:
God said that "Abraham believed" and "it" (his belief) was "counted to him for righteousness".

Not his "good" works, but "his belief".

You took a perfectly good explanation and turned it into something undecernable. I cannot tell where you got 'works' from. For when I said "Faith realizes," as opposed to, "Faith earns," works was eliminated. For if faith earns, that would be works. You know, I'm not sure you people are worth talking to!!!

quote:
Righteousness is indeed EARNED earned by faith ALONE. ("Realizing" is what is done in New Age.)

Now I am going to be bluntly hard on you. This is the dumbest thing that could come out of a human's mouth. I hope you will realize it at some point, because you do not know what you are missing.

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Nichael Harrison said

quote:
Not as though I had already attained...resurrection from the dead!

Has nothing to do with sanctification. If there was anything Paul preached it was sanctification.

Philippians 3:12
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Michael Harrison, "not as if we had already attained...the resurrection of the dead"? And, "attained has nothing to do with sanctification"? That is not what Paul taught?

Philippians 3:16
Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

1 Timothy 4:6
If you put the brethren in remembrance of these things, you shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine whereunto you have attained.

Paul was speaking of attainments of sanctification, accomplished in THIS life.

love, Eden

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Michael Harrison asked

quote:
What planet are you from Eden???

I am from half-heaven, half-earth these days. How about you? So far you have made me out to be a gay skeptic alien and you have said 2 other members are on medication. This is more like "accuser of the brethren" than "love my neighbor as myself", isn't it?

Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; so as to make in Himself, of two, one new man, so making peace.

Are we making peace yet?

Matthew 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

But let me repeat, I am from half-heaven, half-earth these days. And, how about you?

love, Eden

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Michael:
"Faith realizes," as opposed to, "Faith earns,"

Intellect realizes, faith receives [Wink]

James 1:6-8
But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

You have contradicted yourself in the last four posts.

Paul said that he did not consider himself to have attained resurrection from the dead. For those once sealed always ssealed people what this means is that he did not consider himself to have gotten to glory yet. Because then he will have finished the race, and will have laid up trasure in heaven. But until he passes this point, he was saying, there was no garantee. Sanctification has nothing to do with attaining resurrection from the dead. I am glad that you are so astute that you can say what I said and make me sound wrong!

Enough of this conversation. Brother! It is hard to see people in poverty, who would not rather improve it.

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
But let me repeat, I am from half-heaven, half-earth these days. And, how about you?

love, Eden

Nice to meet you Eden, in Christ! [Big Grin]

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
improve it.

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
Intellect realizes, faith receives [Wink]

Fair enough. No disagreement here. But for the purpose, what I said was adequate without having to go into a drawn out explanation.

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:

quote:
Intellect realizes, faith receives [Wink]
Fair enough. No disagreement here. But for the purpose, what I said was adequate without having to go into a drawn out explanation.

It was inadequate for God's purposes..

Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005755

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
So then, if your truly abiding then why do you judge that man a jerk?

I am simply stating what is felt in the heat ot the moment which evokes a reaction which is not Christ. It is a very good illustration, that one. For 'judging' that person to be a jerk is the first 'reaction' which leads to the response, which also is not of Christ.

I was not however judging that person to be a jerk in my post. Just being honest about the temptation that is felt in the moment. I don't know anyone who cannot relate.

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Michael Harrison said,

quote:
Sanctification has nothing to do with attaining resurrection from the dead.

I agree 100%. In this life, we can attain to a measure of sanctification or civility, even to love, but the resurrection of the dead must be GIVEN TO US because we can not attain to it ourselves. Even Elijah did not "take off" but Elijah was "caught up" by a whirlwind which conveniently came by:

2 Kings 2:11
And it came to pass, as they still went on and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

We may attain what we may attain in sanctification, but the ressurection of the dead must be given to us:

1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

No more time for sanctification; it's now happening in "the twinkling of an eye". So I agree with you on that, Michael Harrison.

love, Eden

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
It was inadequate for God's purposes..

Not even remotely. Why do you hinder theo work of God.?

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

But you've been busy judging believers here on this board Michael, in this very thread my brother.. [Yet not you, but sin in you, that is, your flesh] It is evident, by this fruit that you are holding unforgiveness in your heart.

I exhort you to seek out Biblical Counselling.

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Brother Michael Harrison, please identify who, if anyone, you are quoting each time. It's fairer to the rest of the members when the members know who is being loved (or lambasted) each time. Thanks, Eden

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

No Eden, when "You!" If you don't receive it, you don't receive it.

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

So, Michael Harrison, this comment was directed at me?

quote:
Not even remotely. Why do you hinder the work of God?

I thought it might be directed at Billy, please clarify and identify your quotes so that I am not left to wonder? Thank you. Eden

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Who convinces me of sin?

But with me it is a small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment. Yea, I judge not mine own self. For I know nothing by myself. Yet am I not hereby justified, for He that Judgeth me is the Lord.

Therefore judge nothing before the time.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

No eden. It wastozeena, as was thelast post.

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Acts 17
10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night to Berea: who coming there went into the synagogue of the Jews.

11 These (Bereans) were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

12 Many of them therefore believed; also of honorable women who were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

love, Eden

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

quote:
Michael Harrison said: No eden. It was to zeena, as was the last post.

See, I was thinking Billy. So please be helpful and identify who you are quoting, will you?

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God has set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Thanks, Eden

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Who convinces me of sin?

So then, you tell me why you are judging.

Are you burdened?

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

God doesn't rock. He is the rock. I have judged no one, only exhorted. But to discern one's state by his or her own words, and to offer the wisdom and council of God, is not judgment, it is edification. Else Paul, Peter, James, Jude and John were blatantly in error.

God is my witness. I did not call that driver a jerk! I addressed what one would be thinking, which would lead to the next errant reaction, for the benefit of those who are not so aloof so as to be in denial, that that is how they would feel in that situation. I was illustrating, not judging. Your criticism is flawed. You are accusing me of sin. If your accusation will not stand, then you will be the guilty one. I am sorry that you don't realize the truth. Bearing false witness is not a work of the Spirit.

Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on :

Truthfully, I think this topic had already been beaten to death.

I haven't read enough of Michael's posts to know where he stands yet, but what I have seen here is that others are doing the exact same thing that they are accusing Michael of. Why get upset with each other? Michael has his beliefs and God will deal with him. We each have ours and God will deal with us. Do we need to attack each other? Disagree and discuss yes, but there isn't any sense in beating a topic to death when it's obvious that nothing is changing in anyone.

Let's let this lie and discuss topics that glorify God instead of focusing on each other.

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Think ye that that is judging because I say that?

You did.. In agreeing that calling that driver a 'jerk' is judgemental..

Posted by KnowHim (Member # 1) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Carmela:
Truthfully, I think this topic had already been beaten to death.

I haven't read enough of Michael's posts to know where he stands yet, but what I have seen here is that others are doing the exact same thing that they are accusing Michael of. Why get upset with each other? Michael has his beliefs and God will deal with him. We each have ours and God will deal with us. Do we need to attack each other? Disagree and discuss yes, but there isn't any sense in beating a topic to death when it's obvious that nothing is changing in anyone.

Let's let this lie and discuss topics that glorify God instead of focusing on each other.

Amen! This is really getting old.

.

Posted by Billy (Member # 7193) on :

For Zeena:

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Does it say that by the one offering he is has perfected forever those that are saved, or does it say that he has perfected forever those that are sanctified? That being said, when is the work of salvation complete? And when is the work of sanctification complete? These are all just retorical questions for your consideration. You need not answer, because I agree with the last two posts. If this is going to be a quarrel, rather than a discussion, I want no part in it. Sadly, you and I may be able to discuss, but others that happen upon our conversations have a tendancy to turn our discussions into quarrels. Too often, already, I have fallen into this trap.

In Christ,
Billy.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

I shall be quiet, here in my very own post, [happyhappy]

so as not offer further opportunity to be accused of ruffling feathers. But in case you missed the post above Billy, here is a reprint of most of it:

quote:
Abraham was righteous in 'thought and deed'. If one takes the position that you have, that one witholds him or herself while trying to get something from God. It will not work. It would be self-righteousness, or merited righteousness the way you explain it. For it would be 'earned' by faith, rather than realized by faith. We are 'realize' by faith.

Scripture says that "With the heart we believe unto righteousness." That does not say unto right standing. It says we believe unto righteousness! Righteousness is a way of thinking and behaving towards, or better yet, 'by' God. That is a lot to commprehend if we simply stop there. But we believe in "Being created unto righteousness," or 'good works', which is the same (another scripture take note!). Good works do not come from sinful people.

We believe in "Putting on righteousness." It means that we think and behave righteously in His eyes, for remember, even Jesus was Himself seen as a rebel and a sinner by the impure eyes of the worldly, yet how could they overlook it? He was God! Their heart was evil, that is why they 'didn't see. That is the fundamental reason I made this post. It is about the heart.

But it means that we do not have to abide in transgression in thought, word or deed. It is a what would Jesus do sort of thing. When we have His life, what HE would think and do, so do we. If you doubt me, here's scripture: "We have the mind of Christ." That is straight forward verse, such that if one is acutely aware that they don't, or don't seem to, they are in error, not the word, and if one is 'transformed' by the remewing of their mind, they will recognize, what you called, 'higher' thinking (His, instead of their own).

Abram 'believed' God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. What he believed went beyond the fact that God would raise Issac from the dead. He believed something deeper about God, such that it changed him. The result was that he believed that God would raise Issac from the dead, but in fact he believed that God would "Provide Himself a sacrifice," which if one reads, they will find Abraham telling Issac before he carried Issac to the out-back.

So he believed what Jesus would 'do', which entirely accounted for His righteousness. for what does Jesus do?) Then he understood righteousness; for it is 'what Jesus does'. And that is where it lies. When we believe what HE did on the Cross, and is doing in us, 'as a result of His dying on the cross, we realize something which is beyond ourselves, way beyond ourselves.

So, I don't need to quote 'lots' of scripture. One single verse will accomplish its work if we do not rationalize it, which means to make it fit our carnal understanding.

If scripture says that we believe unto righteousness, it means that we become operationally so by faith. It means that we minister His righteousness by our actions because we are not abiding in darkness. If it says that the Blood of Jesus clanses us of all sin, it isn't fooling around, as long as we trust this to be true. And if we try to rationalize it, (make it to fit our understanding) we completely water it down until it is useless. We try to becom acceptable as we are, such that we do not sense His need to change us, which He does, if we have truly believed in Him. Otherwise we are still seeking.

I considered the nuculear option for this post. [Eek!]

But joy will not let me do it.

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Billy:
For Zeena:

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Does it say that by the one offering he is has perfected forever those that are saved, or does it say that he has perfected forever those that are sanctified? That being said, when is the work of salvation complete? And when is the work of sanctification complete? These are all just retorical questions for your consideration. You need not answer, because I agree with the last two posts. If this is going to be a quarrel, rather than a discussion, I want no part in it. Sadly, you and I may be able to discuss, but others that happen upon our conversations have a tendancy to turn our discussions into quarrels. Too often, already, I have fallen into this trap.

In Christ,
Billy.

John 17:19
And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 13:12
So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?

Hebrews 13:12
Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.