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Topic: Can you give up your salvation?
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HisGrace
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
The ark is a picture of the believer in Christ. Could Noah or his family jump out of the ark when God shut the door? More importantly, would they want to? I believe a true believer will not want to throw away their salvation, because the Spirit has sealed them to divine protection.
Good point brother, but the devil might have different plans. He has a huge bag full of tricks. ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif)
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Bloodbought
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
Before Satan entered Judas, Jesus knew Judas would betray Him.
However, couldn't he have been a true believer until Satan entered him?
The ark is a picture of the believer in Christ. Could Noah or his family jump out of the ark when God shut the door? More importantly, would they want to? I believe a true believer will not want to throw away their salvation, because the Spirit has sealed them to divine protection.
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
Before Satan entered Judas, Jesus knew Judas would betray Him.
However, couldn't he have been a true believer until Satan entered him?
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
There are many in the church like this today who are being taught (enlightened), experienceing the good things of heaven (the blessings for the church; under a church covering) and shared in the Holy Spirit (the maifestations of the gifts for the edification of the church), and who then decide to turn away from God...for they never experienced a renewal of the spirit and were never born again.
Hebrews 6:4 (KJV)For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
~It is impossible to partake of the Holy Ghost without being born again.
partake: verb: have or receive a share of
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
Notice that in Mark 10:1 it says that Jesus gave them the power to cast out demons, etc. I don't believe Jesus could have been deceived.
In Matthew 7 I don't see any reference to Judas. Can you quote a scripture Bloodbought that shows Judas was an unebeliever before Satan entered him?
You are correct in saying Jesus could not have been deceived. Jesus knew the entire plan leading up to His crucifixion and He directed that plan. Judas was under divine protection and was not suspected of being a traitor until the time was right for the true nature of his heart to be revealed.
Before Satan entered Judas, Jesus knew Judas would betray Him.
Mat 26:21 And as they did eat, he (Jesus) said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
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trafield
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Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible to restore to repentance those who were once enlightened--those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come-- and who then turn away from God.
There are many in the church like this today who are being taught (enlightened), experienceing the good things of heaven (the blessings for the church; under a church covering) and shared in the Holy Spirit (the maifestations of the gifts for the edification of the church), and who then decide to turn away from God...for they never experienced a renewal of the spirit and were never born again. In other words, they go through the motions but never make a decision in their hearts to really believe until finally they decide not to believe.
Very simple, but tragic.
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
His Grace,We believe as Christians that we are in a better position than before we were saved. Remember, there is nothing we can do to merit salvation, it's all a work of God. Also remember, God predestined us to our salvation (Eph. 1:4). Would God make a mistake? No, I think the evidence clearly supports the view that your salvation is secure. That thought should be comforting in times of doubt.
I agree that NO ONE can take salvation away from us, not even the devil - it is vacuum sealed, but God gives us free choice and WE can choose to turn our backs on God.
quote:
Yet you were the one so concerned about "working it up." I'll pray that you come to feel the peace that comes from knowing the true Grace of God.
I don't recall using those words, trafield. Oh I definitely have peace about knowing the true Grace of God.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by by_grace:
I don't believe that satan could have enetered him if he truly was a believer.
Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible to restore to repentance those who were once enlightened--those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come-- and who then turn away from God.
It is impossible to bring such people to repentance again because they are nailing the Son of God to the cross again by rejecting him, holding him up to public shame.
~We can always be forgiven, and brought back into the fold, but looks like this is a person who has turned their back totally on God and has become very hardened. We can't say that this person was never a believer, because it clearly says,"who has experienced the good things of heaven and shared the Holy Spirit.
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trafield
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His Grace,
Your position that we can lose our salavation contradicts that we are also saved by Grace and not by works.
It does not get any clearer than Romans 8:9-11:
9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
Romans 8:15-16 clearly shows that when we believed we received a spirit of sonship with Christ. How can one have the Holy Spirit within them when saved, and yet choose to disbelieve? Fod God does not call His sheep and then reject them.
John 10:26-27 shows why someone does not believe in Jesus...because they are not His sheep...His sheep listen to His voice.
So obviously if someone does not believe then they were never one of Christ's sheep.
Romans 8:38-39 also explicitly states this, saying "For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
I am a created thing. The verse above states that created things cannot separate us from the love of God, therefore I cannot separate myself from the love of God, either!
Also, in John 10:29, Jesus tells us "And I give eternal life to them; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."
No one includes me! Notice the picture here. You are being held in Jesus' hand, and in the Father's hand. Cup one of your hands over the other, as you would hold a frightened bird. That is the way God holds onto you.
We believe as Christians that we are in a better position than before we were saved. Remember, there is nothing we can do to merit salvation, it's all a work of God. Also remember, God predestined us to our salvation (Eph. 1:4). Would God make a mistake? No, I think the evidence clearly supports the view that your salvation is secure. That thought should be comforting in times of doubt.
Yet you were the one so concerned about "working it up." I'll pray that you come to feel the peace that comes from knowing the true Grace of God.
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by_grace
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I don't believe that satan could have enetered him if he truly was a believer.
If this were the case, all Christians could be taken by satan, and I beleive that is impossible, once you are saved- for satan or any demon to possess a Christian.
We can however be "opressed" by satanic forces.
my measly two cents... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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To "love thy neighbor as thyself" is not expressed by forfeiting, twisting or reinterpreting the Word of God for the cause of unity. It is expressed by hearing, obeying and proclaiming the whole council of God regardless of whom it might offend.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
Matthew 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
Judas was not a believer, he was a pretender. He pretended to be on the side of Jesus when in fact he was not.
The fact that he had power to cast out unclean spirits was no indication he was a believer.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Notice that in Mark 10:1 it says that Jesus gave them the power to cast out demons, etc. I don't believe Jesus could have been deceived.
In Matthew 7 I don't see any reference to Judas. Can you quote a scripture Bloodbought that shows Judas was an unebeliever before Satan entered him?
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
His Grace,It seems, though you use the name you use, really do not give God's grace enough merit.
God does have endless grace, but when sin takes over there is a limt to that patience. The price has to be paid.
Exodus 34:6 To Moses - I am the Lord, the merciful and gracious God. I am slow to anger and rich in unfailing love and faithfulness. I show this unfailing love to many thousands by forgiving every kind of sin and rebeilion. Even so I do not leave sin unpunished.
quote:
From trafield - 1 Cor.10: 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
Lets go onto verses 16 and 17 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
trafield you also quoted Mark 4:16,17 "And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately received it with gladness;
17a But they have no root in themselves, and so they endure but for a time. "
~Once something is uprooted, there is nothing left in the ground. Lets delve further into this scripture.
18The thorny ground represents those who hear and accept the Good News, 19 but all too quickly the message is crowded out by the cares of this life, the lure of wealth, and the desire for nice things, so no crop is produced.
Verses 21-25 Then Jesus asked them, "Would anyone light a lamp and then put it under a basket or under a bed to shut out the light? Of course not! A lamp is placed on a stand, where its light will shine.
22"Everything that is now hidden or secret will eventually be brought to light. 23Anyone who is willing to hear should listen and understand! 24And be sure to pay attention to what you hear. The more you do this, the more you will understand--and even more, besides. 25To those who are open to my teaching, more understanding will be given. But to those who are not listening, EVEN WHAT THEY HAVE WILL BE TAKEN AWAY FROM THEM."
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
Those that supposedly "fall from grace" never really belived in the first place...like Judas.
Jesus chose him as one of his disciples. He had to be a believer at one point.
Matthew 10:1
And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
Matthew 11:1
And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.
After the fact -
Luke 22:3 Then Satan entered into Judas Iscariot, who was one of the twelve disciples.
Judas was not a believer, he was a pretender. He pretended to be on the side of Jesus when in fact he was not.
The fact that he had power to cast out unclean spirits was no indication he was a believer.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Pleasemaranatha:
So Judas, even though he was a believer, was dammed and lost when satan entered his body?
I do believe that someone can be forgiven by crying to God on their death bed, but looks like this didn't happen to Judas.
Acts 2:24,25 Then they all prayed for the right man to be chosen. "Oh Lord, they said, "you know every heart. Show us which of these men you have chosen as an apostle to replace Judas the traitor in this ministry, for he has deserted us, and gone where he belongs."
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Pleasemaranatha
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So Judas, even though he was a believer, was dammed and lost when satan entered his body?
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My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning. Psalms 130 verse 6
Joyce
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
Those that supposedly "fall from grace" never really belived in the first place...like Judas.
Jesus chose him as one of his disciples. He had to be a believer at one point.
Matthew 10:1
And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
Matthew 11:1
And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.
After the fact -
Luke 22:3 Then Satan entered into Judas Iscariot, who was one of the twelve disciples.
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Bandit
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
Shadowmaker,
I don't see how that would be possible. For as born-again believers, we have the Spirit of Christ living within us. And how could one with the Spirit of Christ denounce the very God living within them?
They can fall from faith and turn their back on that God.
I agree with you, HisGrace. A dog can turn back and eat its own vomit. Not a pretty sight. And I don't imagine it tastes all that well either. (Yuck!)
Bandit
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Pleasemaranatha
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Dear Trafield,
You said Judas did not believe. I thought Judas did believe Jesus was the son of God and that was why he let Jesus be captured by the betrayal. He (Judas) believed Jesus would use the Godly powers to save himself and show everyone He was the one the Jewish people was waiting for. ?????????
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My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning. Psalms 130 verse 6
Joyce
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trafield
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quote:
Mark 4
16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately received it with gladness;
17a But they have no root in themselves, and so they endure but for a time.
If they received the Word then they are saved. If they are not rooted in the Word then they are tossed about by the winds of life, and will not receive the fullness that God would otherwise have for them in this life, and they may be uprooted before their time..but they are still saved.
The unsaved are those whose rocky soil never receive the seed.
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BORN AGAIN
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brother Trafield writes quote:
1 Corinthians 3
11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work.
14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.
15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. {bold by BORN AGAIN}
In my opinion, the above and verse 15 is however only available for those who are active believers in the life of Jesus's life suffered in place of my life.
If someone dies in that active believing condition, then verse 15 will happen to that person.
Otherwise, the following happens:
Mark 4
16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word and immediately received it with gladness;
17a But they have no root in themselves, and so they endure but for a time.
After a while, they became non-Christians because they did not "feed themselves" with the Word.
So for these people of verse 17a, there is "no burning up of works" and "he himself is not saved".
God bless, BORN AGAIN ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
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BORN AGAIN
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dear brother shadowmaker, you write quote:
I believe once saved always saved but that's not my question.
Can you denounce God once you are saved? Blaspheme?
I think the Christian believer can denounce God, especially if the believer does not nurture the newly planted divine "plant" of Holy Spirit in him/her by reading the Word and learning new ways of thinking and acting from the Word.
I think a lack or disinterest in of reading the Word and internalize Word knowledge can lead to an eventual denunciation of the same God, and as far as I am concerned, can lead to no longer being a believer.
I think that while you made a valiant attempt to phrase your Topic text in such a way as if the two issues can be separated, I think a lack of feeding on the Word can lead to no longer believing and is no longer OSAS (once saved, always saved).
I'm not going to go there, but the two issues are tightly woven together, in my opinion.
Mark 4
16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately received it with gladness;
17a But they have no root in themselves, and so they endure but for a time.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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trafield
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quote:
What about "What you sew you shall reap?"
His Grace,
That is a priniciple that is for the world we now live in. If you are mean and rude to others, you are going to have people be mean and rude to you. If you want to have more friens, then you need to be a friend.
As I said ealier, believing in the grace of God and even believing that our destiny as believers is eternally secure is no reason to sin. That is a ridiculous argument. For there is always a price to pay for sin in the here and now, especially for us believers who are held more accountable.
It is worth mentioning that our actions here can also make us lose rewards in heaven, but not our salvation.
It seems, though you use the name you use, you really do not give God's grace enough merit.
The following is a good illustration to answer your question and I believe it also reinforces the Truth of "once saved, always saved."
1 Corinthians 3:10-15
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
As I heard someone else say once, "some of us believers are going to be a little smokier than others." ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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epouraniois
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Gal 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
The thing here, is not that grace is become of no affect, God's grace is still present, but they could fall from the grace principle, and therefore fall from having Christ live in their hearts, but Salvation is assured, our faith was not the prerequisite for salvation to the believer, God manifest that the ungodly be reconciled:
Rom 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
See that? It is the overcomer from the powers of this world that brings the faith couted as righteousness, it is this belief that brings faith, and that faith is in Him who justifies the ungodly.
Rom 5:6
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
1Pe 4:18
And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Now Peter is speaking of the coming conclusion that they must soon realize, that Israel will not repent, and they, as the ungodly will be killed in their sin, rather than, perhaps as Stephen, was killed in His grace.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
Once we are saved we are always saved. Our salvation is most definitely eternally secure!
With that in mind, that gives us carte blanche to do whatever we want because we will end up in heaven anyway. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
We live in very weak earthly bodies. We are made up of body, soul and spirit. I have it explained that the soul stands, but the body and spirit have to be fed. Even as believers, the soul submits to the stronger of the two and takes over the character of the flesh or the character of the spirit.
The spirit prays. If the spirit is submissive to the will of God and saturates itself with good thiking, praying and scripture reading, the soul will reflect that character.
If the body, which is of flesh, submits to the world and its attactions, the soul will end in the flesh.
The Holy Spirit is gradually pushed out of the soul if we keep yielding to the flesh.
I don't have anything more to add to your thoughts, Trafield, because I will never believe in OSAS.
What about "What you sew you shall reap?"
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trafield
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His Grace,
When people come to know Christ as their Savior, they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their salvation as eternally secure. Numerous passages of Scripture declare this fact. (a) Romans 8:30 declares, "And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified." This verse tells us that from the moment God chooses us, it is as if we are glorified in His presence in heaven. There is nothing that can prevent a believer from one day being glorified because God has already purposed it in heaven. Once a person is justified, his salvation is guaranteed - he is as secure as if he is already glorified in heaven.
(b) Paul asks two crucial questions in Romans 8:33-34 "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died more than that, who was raised to life - is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us." Who will bring a charge against God's elect? No one will, because Christ is our advocate. Who will condemn us? No one will, because Christ, the One who died for us, is the one who condemns. We have both the advocate and judge as our Savior.
(c) Believers are born again (regenerated) when they believe (John 3:3; Titus 3:5). For a Christian to lose his salvation, he would have to be un-regenerated. The Bible gives no evidence that the new birth can be taken away. (d) The Holy Spirit indwells all believers (John 14:17; Romans 8:9) and baptizes all believers into the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). For a believer to become unsaved, he would have to be "un-indwelt" and detached from the Body of Christ.
(e) John 3:15 states that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If you believe in Christ today and have eternal life, but lose it tomorrow, then it was never "eternal" at all. Hence if you lose your salvation, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error. (f) For the most conclusive argument, I think Scripture says it best itself, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:38-39). Remember the same God who saved you is the same God who will keep you. Once we are saved we are always saved. Our salvation is most definitely eternally secure!
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
quote:
They can fall from faith and turn their back on that God.
Sorry, I do not believe that. It is God who chose us, before we chose him...He does not choose us and then let us fall from Grace. We cannot belive, be born-again, and then become unborn again.
Those that supposedly "fall from grace" never really belived in the first place...like Judas.
Shadowmaker...
I understand it this way, but feel free to disagree:
The unpardonable sin is attributing the miracles of Jesus to the power of Satan. I do not see a connection to this sin and someone losing their salvation.
I personally am not talking abut the unpardonable sin, which the Bible clearly says is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit; not God, Jesus, but the Holy Spirit.
When we hear the Good News about salvation, we have a choice to accept or deny it, and likewise we can choose to walk away from it, once gotten. I don't buy that it is always the case that someone never had salvation in the first place. We can ALWAYS BE FORGIVEN, but in the scenerio I presented to you, probably the man's heart was so hardened and cold, he had lost the capability to ask for forgiveness. Obviously he had returned to sin.
We all know where sinners go.
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trafield
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quote:
They can fall from faith and turn their back on that God.
Sorry, I do not believe that. It is God who chose us, before we chose him...He does not choose us and then let us fall from Grace. We cannot belive, be born-again, and then become unborn again.
Those that supposedly "fall from grace" never really belived in the first place...like Judas.
Shadowmaker...
I understand it this way, but feel free to disagree:
The unpardonable sin is attributing the miracles of Jesus to the power of Satan. I do not see a connection to this sin and someone losing their salvation.
If someone can commit this sin, then they must not be a believer anyway. And I would suppose that if someone can commit this sin then they will never be saved. Because if they could commit this sin and then later be saved, that would mean God would remember this one sin, even though scripture states that Christ died for ALL our sins.
I hope that clarifies my position and helps you.
God Bless,
Tracy
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epouraniois
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Being that it is God's Will that none should be lost save the named one called Satan and the Devil, that old Serpent, what man can over rule God in this matter?
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
Shadowmaker,
I don't see how that would be possible. For as born-again believers, we have the Spirit of Christ living within us. And how could one with the Spirit of Christ denounce the very God living within them?
They can fall from faith and turn their back on that God.
A well-known journalist, who was once a great evangelist in Canada, got too much 'knowledge' and became an agnostic, after which he ended up writing such books as 'Farewell to God - My Reasons for Rejecting the Christian Faith,' .
A quote from the above book." The agnostic does not say as is commonly believed, "I don't know whether or not there is a God". He says " I cannot know. There may have been a First Cause to which one might apply the name of God. There may be a Supreme Being , from which all existence proceeds, but on the available evidence , the question is beyond resolution."
Darkness cannot dwell in light. How could such a person end up in heaven when he didn't believe there was such a person as God. He wouldn't feel as if he belonged in heaven, and Heaven wouldn't feel as if he belonged there.
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shadowmaker
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
Shadowmaker,
I don't see how that would be possible. For as born-again believers, we have the Spirit of Christ living within us. And how could one with the Spirit of Christ denounce the very God living within them?
I ask this question bc I m in a discussion over it and dont have an answer. I told them that the only unforgivable sin was Blaphmesy. They ask if that is so, then a saved person can lose their salvation then?
Brad
Posts: 272 | Registered: Jul 2004
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epouraniois
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posted
Christ died for the ungodly.
2Co 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us; we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
And this speaks to the power of His resurrection. A mighty power to raise such an one from the dead who bears the sin of the world, for the penalty for sin is death, and Christ was imputing the sin of the world unto Himserf, and so must've died from bearing so much sin.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
But we can lose the reward, comes the verse that we work out our Salvation with fear and trembling. This goes to doctrine, that we cannot work out, the Salvation of God which is assured, the doctrine into practice if we have a confused or inaccurate doctrine.
Joh 3:31
He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
As far as being born again, I have never seen such an one, as the Bible makes plain that Christ alone as been born again, He alone is the Firstfruits of them that slept. In John 3. 3, the word is literally speaking of a literal birth, being born from above, not born again, and is so translated born from above, or from the top, &c:
Mat 27:51, Mar 15:38, Joh 3:31, Joh 19:11, Joh 19:23, Jam 1:17, Jam 3:15, Jam 3:17.
Look at Nico's responce, what did Nico think was being said, and reply:
Joh 3:4
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
'water and of the Spirit' is one thing not two, i.e., Sprititual water.
I think what Christians have in their mind, unawares of this tradition of men, saying born again, should be accurately rendered by Scripture:
1Sa 10:6
And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.
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trafield
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posted
Shadowmaker,
I don't see how that would be possible. For as born-again believers, we have the Spirit of Christ living within us. And how could one with the Spirit of Christ denounce the very God living within them?
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
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shadowmaker
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posted
I believe once saved always saved but thats not my question.
Can you denounce God once you are saved? Blaphmesy(sp)?
Brad
Posts: 272 | Registered: Jul 2004
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