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Topic: Can you give up your salvation?
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
I used to be steadfast about Judas having been lost; but the scripture says that we are not to It was really Satan that entered his body and betrayed Jesus. What is his place? God knows.
Very insightful post HFHS. Yes, we don't know for sure if Judas really 'made it'. Perhaps this is God's way of telling us to guard our hearts to make sure we live in such a way that we can be sure that we 'make it.'
Supposing, just supposing, the Rapture were true and Jesus came for his Bride to-day, we have to ask ourselves the question, "Would we be ready?"
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Judas repented himself having realized he was condemned. This is not repent as in have a change of mind. This is repent as in felt sorry for himself - regretted that he was condemned- felt guilty. Guilt is not repentance.
This word is used other places in scripture to mean "not repent"
Judas did not realize the error of his way and run to Christ in sorrow as Peter did. Judas ran to the Law out of regret and guilt for having innocent blood on his hands.
Matthew 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
Acts 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
I always saw this as when they cut him down, he fell headlong to the ground went splat. but I read something interesting recently hat suggested that Matthew spoke to the physical death of Judas and Luke to the spiritual in Acts... bowels speaking of the place in the Hebrew mind where mercy is seated or reckoned, falling speaking to falling from grace, headlong speaking to acting with the head - his belief being head knowledge or putting the head before the heart.
Also in Acts it speaks of his purchasing the field; but we know from Matthew that the field was purchased in his stead by the pharisee who showed him no mercy for his crime saying " what is this to us' and that it was purchased for the burial of strangers. (ones who were not Jews)
This is particularly interesting when Acts speaks of him "Falling" by transgression that he might go to "his place"
I used to be steadfast about Judas having been lost; but the scripture says that we are not to say who shall rise and who shall decend and I am no longer willing to try and second guess God and what he might or might not have done in the last moments of Judas' life, but one thing we know and that is that he lived and died under the Law and the Law condemned him; but he died before Jesus preached to the prisoners that they could be judged as men and live unto Christ... he lost his lot with the Apostles; he is not part of the Bride, but past that I dont know; It was really Satan that entered his body and betrayed Jesus. What is his place? God knows.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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epouraniois
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I believe the prayer set forth in Acts 1:24,25 has the subject being the "ministry and apostleship", acknowledging the reason, that yes, Judas went to the field as prophecy manifest. They didn't say anything else in their prayer. The result is that the required twelth apostle would be made manifest, and it was so, completing the twelve names on twelve foundations of New Jerusalem (Rev 21:14; Mat 19:28).
Perhaps it repented Judas to the point where he felt it would have been better for him if he had never been born, being the man to fulfill that particular Scripture and all.
The Lord Jesus said He Himself had chosen Judas that the Scripture be fulfilled:
"I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me" (Joh 13:18).
In the Old Testament, the word for "hell" is always to mean 'grave', or 'pit', and is so translated. This is the judgment side of that great gulf spoken about in the New Testament, the other side being called 'Abrahams Bosom', where the water of the Lord is present. The 'rich man' went to the judgment side and was in want for even one drop of the water of the Word, but there was none given. Hell is also symbolized and influeced by the Greek mythilogical fire which burned, but here Isreael burns her refuse outside the city, which symbolize the permenant state of the smoke that goes up till the agetime, it is not meant to represent eternal punishing. Isiaah uses a figure of speech as well in his prophecy of this.
Here are a couple of verses that many do not seem to have in their Bible:
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written... (see the 'all things' thread)
Amo 3:2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.
Isa 61:7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them.
Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth
Psa 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
Luk 23:34
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Rom 11:15
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
1Jo 4:10
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BORN AGAIN
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helpforhomeschoolers writes quote:
Honestly, it is for me beyond comprehension to believe that we can lose our salvation. For me if we can it means that we by our own works keep our selves saved.
And what a tough and heavy burden it is, isn't it:
Mark 5:36
As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he said to the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe.
If you call "only believe" work...hey, excuse me for breathing on the sabbath.
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
But I ask you, since when are we instructed to be the judge unto condemdmnation for Judas or anyone else for that matter? Since when is man(kind) the discerner of the things of the heart, of the things that go through a persons mind at the time of death? How do we know anything beyond that which is expressly written?
Of course, I don't know for sure where Judas is, but it 'is expressly written' in Acts 1:24,25 - Then they all prayed for the right man to be chosen. "Oh Lord, they said, "you know every heart. Show us which of these men you have chosen as an apostle to replace Judas the traitor in this ministry, for he has deserted us, and gone where he belongs."
~Judas was already dead at this point.
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epouraniois
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HisGrace
Where does it say in the scriptures that Judas repented? Just because a person recognizes their sin, doesn't necessartly mean that they are prepared to ask for forgiveness. Conviction comes from God - condemnation comes from the devil. For a moment he became remorseful, but condemnation must have overcome him if hanged himself.
I think you are correct, and I blessed in receiving correction, as it appears Judas did hang himself without assistance. That'll teach me to work from memory and not look up every word before I post, aye?
He most certainly did repent in heart and in deed though:
Mat 27:3
Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
Mat 27:4
Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
Mat 27:5
And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
Jesus Christ forgave them all, even the people who crucified Him. He came for the express purpose of the work on the cross. Judas was an instrument that falls within the structure of Biblical overruling, that God uses the weak things of this world to overcome the wiles of the devil, who works out the all things after the counsil of His own Will.
But I ask you, since when are we instructed to be the judge unto condemdmnation for Judas or anyone else for that matter? Since when is man(kind) the discerner of the things of the heart, of the things that go through a persons mind at the time of death? How do we know anything beyond that which is expressly written?
Concerning Judas and the Scriptures:
Act 1:16
Men and brethren, this Scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
Act 1:17
For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
Act 1:18
Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
Perhaps God supernaturally burst forth the intrails of Judas? the basis being possibly found here:
Psa 55:23
But thou, O God, shalt bring them down into the pit of destruction: bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days...
See also, Job 20:12-15; Psa 55:15.
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HisGrace
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Peter never lost his salvation. He must have asked to be forgiven for denying Jesus. This is after Jesus'resurrection -
John 21:14-This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.
So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep ---
This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
~Peter went on to play a key role in the upper room on The Day of Pentecost.
Back to Judas - If he were given a slap on the wrist and welcomed into heaven for committing suicide, God is telling us that suicide is not a sin. He is also that as long as you are a Christian, that the bondage of substance abuse of any kind, which ruins the temple of God, is not a sin. He is telling us that pornography, or other addictions, are not a sin.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
judas did not commit suicide. read it closer, then read it again.
let me ask this, would it be called suicide if I shot myself in the back of the head 6 times?
Then how did judas hang himself, and split his bowels fom groin to throat?
as far as satan entering judas, so what, he entered peter too. we all fall pray at some point.
besides all that, judas repented
1.Matthew 27:5
And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and 'hanged himself.'
~Hanging means d-e-a-d. Maybe his body fell onto rocks or something - the scriptures don't make it clear.
2. Where does it say in the scriptures that Judas repented? Just because a person recognizes their sin, doesn't necessartly mean that they are prepared to ask for forgiveness. Conviction comes from God - condemnation comes from the devil. For a moment he became remorseful, but condemnation must have overcome him if hanged himself.
Acts 1:24 Then they all prayed for the right an to be chosen."O Lord," they said, " you know every heart. Show us which of these men you have chosen as an apostle to replace the traitor in his ministry, for he has deserted us and gone where he belongs."
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epouraniois
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judas did not commit suicide. read it closer, then read it again.
let me ask this, would it be called suicide if I shot myself in the back of the head 6 times?
Then how did judas hang himself, and split his bowels fom groin to throat?
as far as satan entering judas, so what, he entered peter too. we all fall pray at some point.
besides all that, judas repented
and on top of it all
our Saviour and Lord Christ Jesus not only rules, but overrules
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
From HG ~Judas partook of the body and blood at the last supper. If it was after that Satan entered Judas. Probably he became the devil incarnate, and all of the powers he was given before would have dissipated.
Actually, the scripture does not tell us that Judas ate the bread and drank the wine of the covenant cup. It does say that Jesus gave the bread and the wine to the 12.....
You quoted Mark 14 which says that the discipes did eat and drink of his body.
Mark 14:16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.
18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.
19 And they began to be sorrowful, and to say unto him one by one, Is it I? and another said, Is it I?
20 And he answered and said unto them, It is one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish.
21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.
22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
~Judas partook of the body and blood at the last supper. If it was after that Satan entered Judas. Probably he became the devil incarnate, and all of the powers he was given before would have dissipated.
Actually, the scripture does not tell us that Judas ate the bread and drank the wine of the covenant cup. It does say that Jesus gave the bread and the wine to the 12.....
John 13:18 ¶ I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
22 Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake.
23 Now there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.
24 Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake.
25 He then lying on Jesus’ breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?
26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
28 Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him.
29 For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.
30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.
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Matthew 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.
20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.
21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
22 And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?
23 And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.
24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.
26 ¶ And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.
30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
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Mark 14:16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.
18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.
19 And they began to be sorrowful, and to say unto him one by one, Is it I? and another said, Is it I?
20 And he answered and said unto them, It is one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish.
21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.
22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.
26 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
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Luke 22:14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
21 ¶ But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.
22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!
![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif) BUT, If Judas did partake of the bread and the wine, then Judas did place upon himself a curse:
1 Corintians 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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I am sorry, I did not mean to imply that Jesus did not know Judas. I was simply trying to show that the power to cast out demons/heal the sick/ etc... is in the NAME of Jesus and speaks nothing of Judas' righteousness.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Judas was not a member of the church; Judas lived and died under the Law; Judas was not born again.
John 13:18 ¶ I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Judas was chosen for who he was and Jesus said; who He was....
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
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As to the power given Judas... the Power was Christ's name. We see people doing exactly as the 12 did that were not of them at all- the power was in the name of Jesus. God has given power to an AAASS to speak HIS message. When Jesus comes there will be those who have similar power... but to whom Jesus will say 'I NEVER knew you."
Jesus spoke of Judas as unclean - the righteous are not unclean. John 13:10.
Jesus must have 'known' Judas at one time because he gave him the power to heal and remove unclean spirits, even to baptize.(John 4:1,2).
Jesus was predicting the future in the above scripture. He must have known from Day 1 that Judas would betray him. Like us, Judas had his weaknesses, which weren't totally revealed at this point. Like us, Judas was born under the law until he was cleansed through baptism.
If Judas went around baptising, he must have been baptised himself.
If Judas was given all of these powers by Jesus himself, but they were for naught, his minstry was a total hypcrital farce. What kind of message is that sending to non-believers?
John 6:53-56 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him
~Judas partook of the body and blood at the last supper. If it was after that Satan entered Judas. Probably he became the devil incarnate, and all of the powers he was given before would have dissipated.
Notice that his story is totally different from Peter's. Peter was a convicted and repentant participant. Judas became totally of the devil and was incapable of repentance.
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by shadowmaker:
I believe once saved always saved but thats not my question.
Can you denounce God once you are saved? Blaphmesy(sp)?
Brad
If you were to do this, you never were saved to begin with. NO ONE that has come to truly know Jesus Christ would do that.
Just because someone says they are saved, don't mean they are. I could say I was the best NFL player in the world, but it would be a lie.
The proof is in the pudding..... grin
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Hi ya'll: Please know that in no way want to get into a debate with you. This has been argued by the most scholarly of men for hundreds upon hundreds of years and still their are people who believe in the doctrines of eternal security and people who do not. It is something that you just know in your spirit because HIS Spirit has shown you or you dont. Honestly, it is for me beyond comprehension to believe that we can lose our salvation. For me if we can it means that we by our own works keep our selves saved; it means that He is author of our faith and not finisher; it means that HE has given something to HIS Son that man has the power to deny the Son; it means that Greater is your flesh and the desires thereof than the ONE that indwells you; It means that the seal with which we are sealed that can be seen by thousands of angels and not touched can be thrown off by a man; it means that re-birth is not really re-birth; it means that dead is not really dead; it means that there is no real NEW Creature; it means that HE does not really indwell us; it means that the scripture lies when it says that I no longer live, but Christ lives in me and the life I live in this body I live by faith; It means that the works of the enemy are not destroyed; it means that belief is not really belief but thinking; it means that election is not really election; it means that some one else writes the Lamb's book;and I could go on and on, but most of all... it means that God is not really ALMIGHTY; it means that faith is not really in HIM, but in ME; ultimately it means that HE IS not really GOD and not in control.
We do not understand that what we experience in this life is seen through linear time and space that does not exisit in HIS realm. If there comes a time in the life of man that he is re-born it is because he was re-born from the foundation and he will be re-born when this world passes from existance and what we saw was the manifestation of something in linear time and space that was set in motion from the beginning when the Lamb was slain.
I often when discussing this think on Polycarp. Do you really believe if he doubted for one moment the security of HIS salvation that he could have died the death he died? People were so secure in their salvation that they boiled alive in oil rather than deny Christ. That is not in the power of the human will. You could not do that with doubt in your heart about your own ability to be good enough or true and faithful enough. You cannot indure persecution of that magnitude unless the root is within you. If the root of the Most Holy God is within you; there is nothing in this universe that can uproot God because there is no force greater than God.
Enough ranting... let me address your points.
HisGrace Says: quote:
Again -
Matthew 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
~Jesus gave all the twelve disciples power against unclean spirits etc. This power certainly wouldn't have been given to Judas if he weren't in the right spirit at that time.
Later on -
Luke 22:3 THEN SATAN ENTERED INTO JUDAS ISCRIOT, who was one of the twelve disciples.
~Suicide is considered a sin. We have no indication that Judas was saved on his 'death bed'.
Acts. 1:23 Show us which of these men you have chosen as an apostle to replace Judas the traiter in this ministry, for he has deserted us and gone where he belongs.
Judas was not a member of the church; Judas lived and died under the Law; Judas was not born again.
John 13:18 ¶ I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Judas was chosen for who he was and Jesus said; who He was....
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
*************************************************
As to the power given Judas... the Power was Christ's name. We see people doing exactly as the 12 did that were not of them at all- the power was in the name of Jesus. God has given power to an AAASS to speak HIS message. When Jesus comes there will be those who have similar power... but to whom Jesus will say 'I NEVER knew you."
Jesus spoke of Judas as unclean - the righteous are not unclean. John 13:10
BA: you speak of the nation and not the individual and further none of those in the divided Kingdom were born again. When the righteous under the Law died, they had to wait for the day of Christ.
Sorry, guys there just is not one example in the scripture of a born again member of the body of Christ becoming un-reborn. The new creature belongs to God and is promised to the Son and God just is not giving him up. It just is not our life to destroy.
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BORN AGAIN
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sister helphforhomeschoolers wrote quote:
1. These that were cut off are ones that did not believe. They are not ones that believed, and then did not believe. {bold by BA}
Regarding the bold part, Israel when it began, so to speak, with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob-Israel and the 12 tribes of Israel, at first the tribes of Israel believed, under King David and under King Solomom, Israel believed in the LORD YHWH.
But after the split in Rehoboam's reign, once Jeroboam I set up the calves and the Levites came out of northern Israel and the Levites joined Judah and Benjamin in the southern kingdom, then the northern 10 tribes of Israel lost interest in the LORD God of Israel.
Northern Israel added Baal and Moloch and for that backslidden condition, the northern Israelites were mixed among the nations by the Assyrians from 721 B.C. So the LORD made them "lo-ammi" or "not my people" for a while.
The point is, helpforhomeschoolers, that in the beginning Israel believed and gradually Israel stopped believing.
It is not as you wrote quote:
1. These that were cut off are ones that did not believe. They are not ones that believed, and then did not believe. {bold by BA}
They were ones who believed and then did not believe. The opposite of what you wrote, in other words. ![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif)
God of Israel bless, BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
There is not one example in the Bible of a Born again child of God becoming an un born again heathen... not one.
Again -
Matthew 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
~Jesus gave all the twelve disciples power against unclean spirits etc. This power certainly wouldn't have been given to Judas if he weren't in the right spirit at that time.
Later on -
Luke 22:3 THEN SATAN ENTERED INTO JUDAS ISCRIOT, who was one of the twelve disciples.
~Suicide is considered a sin. We have no indication that Judas was saved on his 'death bed'.
Acts. 1:23 Show us which of these men you have chosen as an apostle to replace Judas the traiter in this ministry, for he has deserted us and gone where he belongs.
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trafield
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quote:
The only thing that comes close is seen in the parable of the sower and in that parable we are told that there was belief for a time, but no ROOT.
You must have the Holy Spirit indwelling and sealing you... this is the rebirth - the root.
Again, Amen!
Good stuff, good stuff... ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
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helpforhomeschoolers
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There is not one example in the Bible of a Born again child of God becoming an un born again heathen... not one.
There are examples of those who profess belief and show the opposite.
There are examples of those who seemed to be one of us and were not.
There are examples of those who think that they are and are not.
But there is not one example of one who was born again that became un born again.
The only thing that comes close is seen in the parable of the sower and in that parable we are told that there was belief for a time, but no ROOT.
You must have the Holy Spirit indwelling and sealing you... this is the rebirth - the root.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Yes, excellent posts brothers Tracy and Epouraniois! He is author and finisher of our faith.
It is not about us but about HIM ! ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif) Amen!
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
quote:
From HisGrace - This reporter I cited before totally denounced Jesus and became a very high profile advocate purporting his message.
Then he was never truly born-again to begin with.
I don't buy that one. Look how many really devout Christians sometimes feel as if they are holding onto their salvation by a mere thread. The devil is doing his best to defeat them.
Therefore, if someone, who admittedly was a born-again Christian and turns his back completely on God, can be totally intrapped by the devil.
This man was straightforward enough to admit if he was a hypocrite, or that his salvation was a total farce, but I never heard him say that.
He will never forsake us, but we have free choice. We are capable of forsaking Him.
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trafield
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quote:
We would do well to see this blessed grace as He sees it, finished in the work of Christ. Seeing His body as He sees us may just help us to meet that goal in obtaining a walk that is worthy.
Amen!
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epouraniois
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quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
I don't think this verse has yet been shown as further support of the fact that we cannot lose our salvation if we are truly born again:
Philippians 1:3-6
3I thank my God every time I remember you. 4In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
You see, it is not about us, it is about Him!
Praise God!
Well said.
He is the author, and the finisher of our faith. He doesn't set you off and say, there you go now, your on your own, I almost finished the work, but you have to finish the rest of it. oh, no, that just would not do.
You are in the Father's hands, and cannot be plucked out, you are in the Christ Jesus' hands and cannot be plucked out, and the Holy Spirit is making intercession for you. You were sealed before the foundation of the world.
Note the tenses:
1Th 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Eph 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins
Eph 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by (grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
It's already been done. It is finished. We await the full end of the completed work to be made manifest, but we are already raised with Christ in potentiality.
We would do well to see this blessed grace as He sees it, finished in the work of Christ. Seeing His body as He sees us may just help us to meet that goal in obtaining a walk that is worthy.
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trafield
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I don't think this verse has yet been shown as further support of the fact that we cannot lose our salvation if we are truly born again:
Philippians 1:3-6
3I thank my God every time I remember you. 4In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
You see, it is not about us, it is about Him!
Praise God!
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trafield
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quote:
Do we believe these verses or do we not? Does the wicked one touch us or does he not? We need to let go the lies that devil has told us and start standing on the scripture that says that we are NEW CREATURES ... not the same creature as before. We were once the sons of men... living souls with the spirit of beasts living in skins of flesh and blood with sin; we are now sons of God; born of the Spirit; indwelled with the Spirit of the Almighty God; sealed with his Signant ring and awaiting our spiritual bodies and the shedding of this flesh and blood body of death and sin. If you are born again it is a done deal; there is nothing that can un-birth you.
Amen! Well stated Linda! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Bother Epouraniois make that last post a thread there are excellent points in it. Lets discuss this from that point of view. It would make an excellent topic.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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BA: I think that Tracy gave good and accurate answer to your question, but I would like to add one thing...
1. These that were cut off are ones that did not believe. They are not ones that believed, and then did not believe.
In fact the scripture tells us that if you could believe and then not believe, it would be impossible to restore you to belief again...
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
2. If you are going to look to Roman's for doctrine on being cut off, then you have to look at the whole context of the text, which shows the warning of Paul... make certain that YOU bear the root and not just that the root bear you... We must have the HOLY SPIRIT indwelling us... and if we do, then we will not boast against the branches because we know that if the root is holy the whole tree is holy:
Romans 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Ye must be born again! This requires belief that is more than belief in the head, but is belief in hte heart with the faith in and OF Christ. This is the belief of salvation. We must have roots down in our soil or else we will blow away with the winds of persecution.
3. This verse in Romans:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
cannot contradict this one:
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Note what is said in this scripture:
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Who is it that continues? Who is it that abides?
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
I wont harp on this, I know that getting or not getting the doctrines of eternal security for the Born again believer must come from the Spirit. I would just like to end in saying that we really need to get that being born again is a physical thing. We call it a spiritual thing as though it were something intangible... something that we cannot touch. This is not so. We are born again of SPIRIT; BY the SPIRIT; it is spiritual in that what is created in our rebirth is a Spirit being. Spirit beings are real tangible beings. We are born of God and God is a spirit; we who were living souls have become born of God spirit beings. It is a real tangible change that has occured: We are becoming tranformed into the image of the SON; what was that image? It was the image of a man that had no sin in his flesh ... he looked like Adam; but was begotten of God. We have been begotten of God and we await our sinless spiritual bodies:
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Do we believe these verses or do we not? Does the wicked one touch us or does he not? We need to let go the lies that devil has told us and start standing on the scripture that says that we are NEW CREATURES ... not the same creature as before. We were once the sons of men... living souls with the spirit of beasts living in skins of flesh and blood with sin; we are now sons of God; born of the Spirit; indwelled with the Spirit of the Almighty God; sealed with his Signant ring and awaiting our spiritual bodies and the shedding of this flesh and blood body of death and sin. If you are born again it is a done deal; there is nothing that can un-birth you.
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epouraniois
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There is no such thing as Pauline Dispensationalism. This is a misnomer.
Heb 1:1
God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
The Holy Spirit is the author of the Book.
2Pe 1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
The Holy Spirit has made it known that man is 'sent' stewards. The word steward is of the word dispensation. So is the word administration. God has sent stewards to faithfully dispense various administrations. The word administration (dispensation) has to do with keeping a house in order. In this case it is God's house being kept in order.
At the time present, we are in what the Holy Spirit calls the dispensation of the grace of God.
Eph 3:2
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
That the prisoner for the Lord for the hope of you gentiles brings us this good news gives no cause to disagree with God on His privalige and desire to provide the peoples of the earth with various faithful stewards that we may come to know Him, it is?
Perhaps if we all learn to use the words God has chosen to use, in the way God has chosen to use them, some of these labeling issues could receed into the background?
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God;
We aren't in the dispensation of Noah's stewardhsip, nor of Davids, we are told that now:
Eph 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
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yeshuaslavejeff
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http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/ashes.htm
--------------------
1Peter4:1,2 Yeshua suffered physical suffering:disciples have same mind/ willingness to share shame/physical suffering with Yeshua/His people.
Biblio:"willtherealhereticsplease standup?"byBercot(churchTruth)
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trafield
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quote:
Romans 11:21
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also not spare you[/b.
Why? For unbelief:
Romans 11:20
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:23
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Romans 11:21
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also not spare you.
This passage is concerning the Jews as a nation, not as individual Jews, and saying that if the Jewish people do not continue in their disbelief then they, as a nation, will be grafted in once again. Paul, a fellow Jew, was speaking to the gentiles (11:13) about not boasting over the disbelief of Israel as a whole. For was not Paul himself a believing Jew?
The key words in the above passage is "if they do not continue in their disbelief..."
So This should not be confused with individual Jewish believers who once they are saved by the Blood of the Lamb, are also eternally secure. The fact that they were cut off because of unbelief in no way shows that they, as a nation, once believed and then decided not to believe. Remember, though the majority of Irael has always disbelieved, throughout creation the blessings have come through the faith of one man...Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joesph, Moses...and Jesus Christ, the author and perfector of our faith (Hebrews 11:1-12:2)!
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trafield
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Amen, Linda to your posts!
From HisGrace:
quote:
This reporter I cited before totally denounced Jesus and became a very high profile advocate purporting his message.
Then he was never truly born-again to begin with.
Look, if we are truly born-again, the chosen of God, then the Spirit of Jesus has written a new law on our hearts. Once that happens we are eternally secure, praise God!
Hebrews 8:9-10
9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
Psalm 119:165
Great peace have they who love your law,
and nothing can make them stumble.
Psalm 121
1 I lift up my eyes to the hills—
where does my help come from?
2 My help comes from the LORD,
the Maker of heaven and earth.
3 He will not let your foot slip—
he who watches over you will not slumber;
4 indeed, he who watches over Israel
will neither slumber nor sleep.
5 The LORD watches over you—
the LORD is your shade at your right hand;
6 the sun will not harm you by day,
nor the moon by night.
7 The LORD will keep you from all harm—
he will watch over your life;
8 the LORD will watch over your coming and going
both now and forevermore.
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BORN AGAIN
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Mark 13:5
And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you.
Romans 11:21
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also not spare you[/b.
Why? For [b]unbelief:
Romans 11:20
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:23
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Romans 11:21
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also not spare you.
Which part of "also not spare you" don't you get? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
with Christian love for my new brothers and sisters in Christ, I am BORN AGAIN by the
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helpforhomeschoolers
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I dont want to change the direction of this thread. I really liked your post; but could not agree with your Pauline Dispensationalist edge. So, I chose to just tease you a bit. Rather than withhold my amen totally.
It was perhaps poor judgement on my part to say that here not wanting to change the direction of the thread. I didnt want to keep the Amen to myself, but I also did not want to be confused as agreeing with your particular dispensational view.
That is a topic for another thread. Maybe (I am hopeful) it could be kept to just one thread and not overtake the board again now that Terral seems to be gone.
Anyway.. I will leave this where it is. If you want to discuss Pauline Dispensationalism and keep it in one single thread I am open to that. If not that is fine too, in the future I will with hold my Amens unless I can amen the whole post and that should keep us from running things amuck in other threads.. please forgive my error in judgment in this thread.
In Christ,
Linda
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epouraniois
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Amen!
But it is not a new Gospel! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) It is THE Gospel as given to the people in this time - the time of the Gentiles.
This gospel is the first written after Acts, when the Salvation of God is sent to the nations. Placing it about 62-64 A.D. I cannot emphasize enough, that this is the gospel which was written with the name 'nations' on the envelope, that it is this, the first of the letters, which is written after the Salvation of God was sent to the nations. They alone bear the name of everyone in all nations on the envelope. Well, that is my name. I am someone in all the nations. Never before was there an epistle written for anyone but the tribes of Hebrews. Yes, for 18 years certain gentiles were able to hear what the Jews heard, but they had no letters written specifically to them. No, not one.
But in these sent after the Acts commission concludes is given a new gospel of a heavenly hope, and referred as the mystery hid from ages and from generations, but now made manifest.
And in Eph 1:13, it this new gospel is called "the gospel of your salvation".
It superceeds the previous gospels in hieght and in glory, which had an earthly kingdom hope and calling, but this is new, it is a newly created body called the church, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all. The apostles says so. I believe him. He speaks for Christ. This church has every blessing that is spiritual, and has them in heavenly places, not as the previous gospels, which have earth as the place of blessings.
Indeed, although it has been announced for a long time time, Paul, who is the prisoner of the Christ Jesus, says this completes the word of God:
Col 1:24
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
Col 1:25
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God;
Col 1:26
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Col 1:28
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Amen!
But it is not a new Gospel! It is THE Gospel as given to the people in this time - the time of the Gentiles.
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epouraniois
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The new gospel given in Ephesians is very clear.
God the Father sees us the same way He sees His Son, IN HIM!!!
And this is because we are sealed until the day of redemption. The church body are a different company, one chosen before the foundation of the world.
WE are to see ourselves as dead, risen, raised, and seated, with Him, in heavenly places, NOW.
He sees us this way.
You are to see yourselves in this way.
Then He can come and be IN YOU.
And you can then respond to the call to WALK WORTHY.
He doesn't just call us to this worthy walk when we cannot do it, that would be horrifying.
1:15-19. PAUL’S FIRST PRAYER.
That He may give.
That you may know.
The hope, riches, power of the Mystery.
We can walk this particular worthy walk that is set before us in the first three chapters of Ephesians. It is a higher walk because it is a higher calling, but the good new is, The Salvation of God was sent to the nations and we will hear it, (Acts 28. 28.).
Look at the breakdown of the doctrine before you commit to yourselves that Christ is unable or unwilling to keep your salvation sealed till the day of redemption:
(1) THE THREEFOLD CHARTER (1:3-14).
(a) The Will of the Father.
(b) The Work of the Son.
(c) The Witness of the Spirit.
(2) THE THREEFOLD PRAYER (1:15-19).
(a) That ye may know.-Hope.
(b) That ye may know.-Inheritance.
(c) That ye may know.-Power.
(3) THE THREEFOLD UNION (1:19 to 2:7).
(a) Quickened together.
(b) Raised together.
(c) Seated together.
(4) THREE WORKS (2:8-10).
(a) Not of works.
(b) We are His work.
(c) Unto good works.
(5) THREEFOLD PEACE (2:11-19).
(a) Far off nigh.-Peace.
(b) Two made one.-Peace.
(c) He came and preached.-Peace.
(6) THREEFOLD UNION (2:19-22).
(a) Citizens together.
(b) Framed together.
(c) Builded together.
(7) THREEFOLD EQUALITY (3:1-13).
(a) Heirs together.
(b) Members together.
(c) Partakers together.
Now this is the instructions for the church, His body. This is how you are seen by God, in Him.
This acknowledgment leads to the worthy walk, which is the practical outcome of mastering this doctrine.
The Central Prayer (3:14-21)
(a) That He would grant strength.
(b) That ye may be able to comprehend.
(c) That ye might be filled unto all the fulness of God.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Amen Tracy! We cannot give up our salvation. The returning of a dog to its own vomit speaks to the returning of thr Jew to Law and his own works for salvation. Let's look at that scripture:
First look what Peter says God does:
2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
We need to understand that this is the work of GOD through the Spirit - this is not our work - the keeping of men saved... Peter says GOD knoweth how to
1. Deliver the godly - God delivers the godly.
2. God reserves the unjust unto judgement.
We really need to get hold of who we are. The born again believer is one who is JUST/GODLY because HE is PUT ON CHRIST. IS born of GOD; IS a NEW CREATURE. The born again believer can never be unjust because Christ can never be unjust. Christ is become our righteousness. It is the righteousness of Christ that God has excepted to save your soul.
Now Peter speaks of the UNJUST:
2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
The born again child of God is not a nutral brute beast MADE to be destroyed. The born again child of God is a NEW CREATURE born of SPIRIT; BORN from Above (spiriutal)not nautral!!!!!!!
2 Peter 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
There is no way in the universe that God can give to the JUST the reward of the UNJUST... the reward of unrighteousness. You are if you are born again righteous because Christ is righteous and you have put on Christ and HIS righteousness - God cannot give to you the reward of the unrighteous, to do so would be to smite Christ and HIS righteousness.
2 Peter 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Now look at the above: They have returned to their own vomit according to the true proverb... what proverb???
Proverbs 26:11 10 ¶ The great God that formed all things both rewardeth the fool, and rewardeth transgressors.
11 ¶ As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
A fool in the Bible is not something to be. I think if you look at what the Bible says about fools you will find that it is not a label that can be applied to the born again:
Proverbs 28:26 He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.
You can do your own search on the use of the word fool in the Bible but you will see that a fool is one whose heart is not the heart of a born again believer. It is not contrite; it is not humble; it does not seek wisdom; it does not submit to instruction.. it is the opposite of one who has died that Christ may live in them; it is the opposite of one that is trusting in God.
Additionally, when you look at what Peter is saying you see that these are ones that have turned back. The gentile believer has nothing to turn back to! We never had any other means by which we could come before God in the first place. There was no other means of slavation ever available to us. This passage in 2 Peter speaks to ones who were given knowledge of the right way and then having that knowledge turned back to the wrong way. This is not possible for the Gentile believer who never had the Law in the first place. Grace was never come to us but by any other means except through Christ.
Someone else gave the scripture from the Parable of the sower. If you examine that scripture you see something not to be overlooked:
Matthew 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
What is it to have not root? This is to not have the re-birth; this is not to be rooted in the TRUE vine. We must have root and that root is the very indwelling of the Holy Spirit that makes us to be a new creature in Christ. We must be in him yes.. BUT HE must be in us as well.
There is another scripture that speaks of the tree bearing us but not we the tree:
Romans 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
This is not a place to be... this is a place where we have heard the truth, but it has not set down root in us... we must have within us the indwelling Spirit and the seal of the Spirit upon us. It is not enough to hear and believe in our heads or our minds... we must have root in us that cannot be uprooted. THIS IS THE BORN AGAIN EXPERIENCE AND ONCE IT OCCURS IT CANNOT BE UNDONE, BY ANYTING IN UNDER ABOVE OR BENEATH THE EARTH , BUT THIS MUST HAPPEN.
We cannot ignore the scriptures that show that we are translated into the heveanly Kingdom now..
Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
We need to understand what it means to be SEALED with the signant ring of God:
2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
We are sealed unto the day that we receive glorified bodies:
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
We (Our Spiritual man)are the purchased possession of God Almighty!
Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
We really need to get what it means to be re-born; the enemy wants to keep this from you because he wants to keep you doubting who you are in Christ and what he is in you because when you dont know that you also do not know that you are free of bondage to sin in your flesh and you do not have to walk after the flesh.
You cannot be born again and give up your salvation. If you do not remain; if you can denounce Christ after having claimed him; if you can walk away then you were not reborn in the forst place.
this does not speak to walking in the flesh or "backsliding" we can all sin. We have an advocate when we do; we can all walk in the flesh - this is possible... but when we are born again the works that we do in the flesh are not our works, but sin that dwells in the flesh and they will burn, but we shall be saved if by fire.
We need to understand the re-birth. This should be the question we ask ourselves... Have we been reborn? If we have then we have ceased from our own works and that includes the works of trying to keep ourselves saved.
Ps: to those who continue to say that God cannot look upon sin, please give scripture for this. There is much scripture to show that God does has di look upon sin. I have not one scripture seen that says that God cannot look upon sin. This is a statment that is used by the enemy to say that God turned his back on Christ at the cross and that is not so. Please support this statement abotu God's inability with scripture.
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HisGrace
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quote:
from trafield
Sorry, I still don't think your arguments line up with scripture. You can't fall from Grace, and you certainly cannot choose to turn away from Grace once you have truly been re-born of the Spirit.
quote:
from Vessel of Grace
You can lose your salvation and if you denounce God as he still give us choices, He will not look at you and see his son, which means your unrighteousness will not be righteous in the Lord's eyes.
Amen. This reporter I cited before totally denounced Jesus and became a very high profile advocate purporting his message.
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
They can fall from faith and turn their back on that God.
A well-known journalist, who was once a great
evangelist in Canada, got too much 'knowledge' and became an agnostic, after which he ended up writing such books as 'Farewell to God - My Reasons for Rejecting the Christian Faith,' .
Darkness cannot dwell in light. How could such a person end up in heaven when he didn't believe there was such a person as God. He wouldn't feel as if he belonged in heaven, and Heaven wouldn't feel as if he belonged there.
Hab.1:13 But will you, who cannot allow sin in any form, stand idly by while they swallow us up.?
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epouraniois
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We can fall from the grace principle, but not from the grace of God. If even one of His children did not make it, then the plan of redemption would fail, and God cannot fail. That is the point of Him doing the work on the tree.
And this is the foundation of the Christian pathway. see John 3. 16.
The goal of every Christian is to begin the Christian walk and have a personal walk with the Lord, in growth, until one is able to take strong meat. Peter said that milk was for growth, and here we read a warning of a condition that is present today too, now these are believers mind you, we read of them:
Heb 5:11
Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
Heb 5:12
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Heb 5:13
For every one that useth milk is unskillfull in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
This verse continues right on in to ch6, and I suggest reading the first two verses.
Every Christian must start somewhere, and that is in spiritual babihood. It is where we all begin, but just like in the physical world, ia baby is expected to grow into maturity, but sometimes they cannot. And it is trajic when children remain chidren always, when something happens that they never grown into adulthood when their bodies do. And it occurrs in Chritians too. And this is unfortunate on many levels, because our fight is with spiritual wickedness in high places says Eph6. What is a baby going to do in a spiritual fight, or any kind of fight? Nothing. Babies can not be helpful in a fight or a war.
It is to this the apostle writes to not be laying again those foundations over and over. He is addressing those who tend to be found so doing as well as the teachers not yet weaned themselves. But unfortunately, many teachers have not been weened, and cannot therefore, provide their services with strong meat, they can't chew on it themselves.
My suggestion, open the book, and believe every word it says, not just the words that are easy to understand, put the difficult things on the shelf, but believe they are true.
God's plan isn't going to fail, and He didn't leave salvation up to us. That is made very clear in Scripture, Salvation is of God, it is a 'free gift'.
Rom 5:15
But not as the offense, so also is the free gift. For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses unto justification.
Rom 5:18
Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Lastly, judgment in the Bible is a good good thing, for He comes bringing judgment to the evil one, the deceiver -read Job, not the deceived, but there is no reason to be deceived wholly, not with the acceptance and access we are granted. The OT Hebrews never had this access, so their verses will not be speaking of it, but our gospel, our good news is that we have:
Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
By the faith of Christ. We have this access, with boldness and with confidence. There is no reason the Lord will not give a personal knowledge of Himself to those who prayerfully ask Him for it.
And this access is given to us so that we:
Eph 3:18
May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19
And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God.
Eph 3:20
Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
Eph 3:21
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
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trafield
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Agreed. God hates sin so much he cannot look upon it.
And yet, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. That is Grace!
Sorry, I still don't think your arguments line up with scripture. You can't fall from Grace, and you certainly cannot choose to turn away from Grace once you have truly been re-born of the Spirit.
Thank you Jesus. ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Vessel of Grace:
Trafield, you mention that God chose us BUT what that means is that he chose all of mankind. Every person's name is written in the book of life when God breathes life into them but it can be blotted out. You can lose your salvation and if you denounce God as he still give us choices, He will not look at you and see his son, which means your unrighteousness will not be righteous in the Lord's eyes. Also if you turn against God, then you are grieving the Holy Spirit. In the end days, God's sign of his people is the Holy Spirit, which is God's seal.
Agreed. God hates sin so much he cannot look upon it.
Revelation 3:16
So, because you are lukewarm — neither hot nor cold— I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
Welcome to the Board Vessel of Grace.
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Vessel of Grace
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Trafield, you mention that God chose us BUT what that means is that he chose all of mankind. Every person's name is written in the book of life when God breathes life into them but it can be blotted out. You can lose your salvation and if you denounce God as he still give us choices, He will not look at you and see his son, which means your unrighteousness will not be righteous in the Lord's eyes. Also if you turn against God, then you are grieving the Holy Spirit. In the end days, God's sign of his people is the Holy Spirit, which is God's seal.
Yes God is longsuffering and his grace seems neverending, but there will be a close-off day when his Grace will end and Jesus will come to take his people. There will be no turning back and those that were luke-warm or just refused to give their life over in obedience (and I mean complete obedience) will not see the Kingdom of God. Obedience is keeping God's commandments.
Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Exodus 32:32
But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written."
Exodus 32:33
The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.
Deuteronomy 29:20
The LORD will never be willing to forgive him; his wrath and zeal will burn against that man. All the curses written in this book will fall upon him, and the LORD will blot out his name from under heaven.
Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
[/QUOTE]Sorry, I do not believe that. It is God who chose us, before we chose him...He does not choose us and then let us fall from Grace. We cannot belive, be born-again, and then become unborn again.
Those that supposedly "fall from grace" never really belived in the first place...like Judas.
Shadowmaker...
I understand it this way, but feel free to disagree:
The unpardonable sin is attributing the miracles of Jesus to the power of Satan. I do not see a connection to this sin and someone losing their salvation.
If someone can commit this sin, then they must not be a believer anyway. And I would suppose that if someone can commit this sin then they will never be saved. Because if they could commit this sin and then later be saved, that would mean God would remember this one sin, even though scripture states that Christ died for ALL our sins.
I hope that clarifies my position and helps you.
God Bless,
Tracy [/QB][/QUOTE]
--------------------
May God reveal more and more of His truths to you.
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epouraniois
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Eph 4:30 says ye are sealed unto the day of redemption, Col 3:3 says Christ is hid in God. How is anyone or anything going to break in there and take that redemption away and steal it?
It just can't happen, Those of us who know the Bible is the truth, we are aware of this sealed redemption that was purchased with a price. And our fight isn't one of flesh and blood, where we must never fall short again, but with spiritual wickedness in high places, where we reach for the prize of the high calling of God.
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins
We are assured Salvation was accomplished and the work finished once and for all on the cross. Siin is not imputed in the issue of Salvation. WE are in a race for a prize, and the prize speaks of reward. Reward is above and beyond the Salvation of God, which is a 'free gift'. We aren't to again lay the old foundations of works and baptisms laying on of hands and of resurrection of the dead and of eternal judgment and of faith toward God.
We are to be continuing onto perfection Phi 3:13, salvation having been finished, sealed to the day of redemption, we are to consider ourselves the same way God considers us, Col 2:12 buried with Him, Col 2:13 quickened with Him (made alive), Col 2:20 dead with Christ, Col 3:1 risen with Christ, Col 3:3 with Christ in God, Col 3:4 appearing with Christ when He appears in the heavenlies.
Paul continued to the end, he wasn't constantly concerned whether or not he was saved, that part is assured, and is the faith we live by as Christians, that our Savior Jesus Christ has done the work that we cannot do. Paul was permitted to write of his end using the same word our Lord used, 'finished', these are HS inspired words:
2Ti 4:7
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
2Ti 4:8
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Speaking to Ananias, the death was not a salvation issue, it was a lying to the Holy Spirit, lying to God issue, where the death was of the body. We, I don't believe, are in a position to judge anybody. In Scripture there is only one named as prejudged, therefore prudence dictates we not go outside the bounds of that which is written.
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Rogg
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Yes you can lose it.
Jude 1:11
11.Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
The story of Ananias, and Sapphira in Acts 5 is another example
Luke 9:62
62.And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
Hebrews 6:4-6
4.For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5.and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6.if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Posts: 83 | From: St. Louis MO | Registered: Jan 2006
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BORN AGAIN
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brother Terral writes to BORN AGAIN quote:
No, no, no. Think carefully what you are saying in light of what Scripture teaches on this topic.
First of all, a member of the kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) saved by the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matt. 24:14) MUST “endure to the end” (Matt. 24:13) to be saved.
Kingdom disciples like Judas, Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-10) were called BUT NOT CHOSEN through the ‘gospel of the kingdom.’
However, this is NOT the case for those baptized into Christ and into His death (Rom. 6:3+4) to also participate in His resurrection to be seated “IN” the heavenly places “IN” Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:6). Note that we are sealed “IN HIM” (Eph. 1:13+14) for the “Day of Redemption” (Eph. 4:30). Our lives are hidden with Christ “IN” God. Col. 3:3. We represent the ‘new creation’ (Gal. 6:15) “IN” Christ Jesus, and we can never become unborn.[quote]Terral, does this IN Christ group only consist of Gentiles or are there also Israelites among them?[quote]Eternal security exists ONLY for those ‘IN’ Christ Jesus, but members of the kingdom ‘bride’ are always required to endure to the end for salvation.
For the uninitated this is hard to understand. You say you have written a 700-page book on the subjects, right? In your book, don't you gradually lead the reader into truths or do you start out in Chapter 1 with all your foregone conclusions as you tend to do with us? How about just starting with a summary of Chapter One and then we can move on to a summary of Chapter Two, and so on? Wouldn't that make more sense? quote:
While the gospel of the kingdom and those three baptisms give the kingdom disciple the ‘GIFT of the Holy Spirit’ (Acts 2:38), our ‘earnest’ (Eph. 1:13+14) includes having lives hidden with Christ in God.
ditto
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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yahsway
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So be it brother Terral. If you can't teach this, lets see, what were your words? "Monkey"? your position on the matter than i guess its useless to ask you questions regarding the matter.
Thank you for your time anyway. Be Blessed in Yeshuas Name. Shalom
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yahsway
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So Terral, there are 2 ways to salvation? One being In Christ, covered by His blood,thru our faith and belief on the Christ and the other Enduring until the end for salvation?
Is this enduring thru the ones own power or thru the help of the Holy Spirit?
And if not by the Holy Spirit, how could one possibly endure until the end for salvation? What would motivate one to possibly endure until the end seeing that the only reward they would recieve would be here on this earthly kingdom and to be ruled with a rod of iron? Does this make sense to you?
So, what you really are saying is that out of every tribe, tongue and Nation, those who are in Christ,(except of course for the Jews)will sit in heavenly places while the poor, wretched Jews must endure all tribulation here on earth so that their reward is here on earth afterwards with Christ reigning as their Messiah and the rest of us enjoy our reward in Heaven and never the two shall meet, is that correct?
Are you saying that God(the One God) has His bride(all the gentile Nations) and The Christ has His Bride at the end of this age, the Jews?
I have heard it preached the other way around. You know, Jesus has His bride, the Christians, and God has His Bride, the Jews, but I am not a proponate of that idea either.
So, if Jesus the Christ only came for "the lost house of the sheep of Israel, (and we know from scripture there are 2 houses) who were those of the lost house? And if Jesus was only preaching and teaching to the Jews (the earthly kingdom)why did his disciples ask Him if it was now that He was going to restore the kingdom? Did Jesus heal others (gentiles) as well as the Jews? while He was here? Why would He bother if His message was only for the Jews and only about an earthly kingdom? Didn't Jesus say His kingdom was not of this world?
Did John not say that God so loved the WHOLE world that He sent His only begotten Son? So do you believe that the page in most bibles that says "The New Testament" on it should have been placed somewhere in the middle of Acts instead of before the Gospel of Matthew?
After Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John (the gospels) everything else is just commentary. Letters written to the believers, both Jewish and Gentile believers.
But, Peter wrote his first letter to the Gentiles. "To those who reside as aliens, "chosen". You are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy Nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His wonderful light. Once you (Gentiles) were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not recieved mercy, but now you have recieved mercy" 1 Peter 1:1; 2:9-10.
The NIV Study Bible says of these aliens who once were not a people:
"In Hosea it is Israel(NOT JUDAH) who is not God's people; In Romans it is the Gentiles to whom Paul applies Hosea's words; in 1 Peter the words are applied to both.
Could it be they are one in the same people?
Paul said the "former gentiles "were excluded from the commonwealth of Israel". "But NOW, in Messiah Yeshua you are NO MORE STRANGERS and ALIENS, " but are "fellow citizens" (Eph. 2:11-19). Paul said to the non-Jewish Believers of his day: 'You are no longer outsiders-exiles, migrants and aliens, excluded from the rights of citizenship with..God's own people"(Eph. 2:19 AMP)
This means, if an individual once had a Gentile background, when they were/are "in Messiah Yeshua," they were/are fellow citizens of the commonwealth of Israel."
The One God has but one people! Neither Jew or Gentile but ONE called out people.
Surely all Believers, whatever their supposed backgrounds, agree they ultimately will be united with all the "Believing" people of Israel.
Yeshua did not say to His brethern the Jews, that they would see Him and then believe. No, He said
You will not SEE me UNTIL you say Blessed is He(Yeshua) who comes in the Name of The Lord.
Yeshua will reign over all things in Heaven, under Heaven and under the Earth. All His people will be with Him (believers of every tribe, tongue, nations) He will not seperate His people, some to live here for 1000 years and others to live in Heaven for 1000 years. We will be ONE HOUSE, not divided. He will teach us ALL His ways. Even so Yeshua come.
And if thru the Holy Spirit
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BORN AGAIN
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sister by_grace writes[/quote]I don't believe that satan could have enetered him if he truly was a believer.[/quote]I disagree. A believer needs to "actively continue to believe" in order not be "deceived by Satan". If the initial or even fairly-seasoned "believer" is not careful, the "cares and pleasures of this world" will carry the believer "back into unbelief". quote:
my measly two cents...
please don't call any part of the body of Christ "measly".
May the LORD God of Israel bless, BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
The devil can have as big a bag of tricks as he likes, but if he attacks thinking he will bring us down, God will make him look silly by rewarding us double for our trouble as He did with Job.
Yes indeed, as long as we are prepared to put on the full armor of God and take up the shield of faith, in order to fight "against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms," as in Ephesians 6.
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
The ark is a picture of the believer in Christ. Could Noah or his family jump out of the ark when God shut the door? More importantly, would they want to? I believe a true believer will not want to throw away their salvation, because the Spirit has sealed them to divine protection.
Good point brother, but the devil might have different plans. He has a huge bag full of tricks. ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif)
The devil can have as big a bag of tricks as he likes, but if he attacks thinking he will bring us down, God will make him look silly by rewarding us double for our trouble as He did with Job.
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