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Topic: Can you give up your salvation?

epouraniois
unregistered

posted

quote:
I mean after all, if I didn't have the spiritual understanding that I have, I would love to jump into some of those temptations that look so good since I know I can sin and still be saved.

I just can;t leave that one alone, sorry, but I am not making your tempations look good.

You know where it is written that the Lord was tempted in all ways, yet without sin?

Well, Satan held out the temptation, but it the Lord was not tempted by it. If you are tempted by the things of this world, then it is something to work on, that's all. You don't lose the Salvation of God which purchased all sin and sealed you when you believed until the day of redemption.

But if you, or me, sin, God knows us very well, He knows we will sin again tomorrow, and again today too. But if we stay close to the Lord we will not have the desire to serve sin, we come to the place where we can walk into the presnece of the Lord, knowing the power of His resurrection in our lives, quickened even while ye where yet dead in your sins says Ephesians2, raised you up together to be seated with Christ in the heavenly places.

This does, of course, speak to the believer now. There is no way any of us can be quickened together right now if we deny it has already happened, which is why we are asked to see ourselves, one to another the same way God sees us, IN HIM, LOVE TO ALL SAINTS.

Not one person over another, all the members of this body are equal. It is such a stupendous high calling that once it is realized, one cannot help but desire to have the knowledge of the Christ in a walk that is worthy.

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epouraniois
unregistered

posted

Carmela,

I'm not trying to jam on you, really I'm not. I'm just saying that I the only opinion I've expressed is that I believe what is written, then I post the verses showing what is written. I try not to repace what is written with my beliefs, for the most part, I cannot contribute to God's Holy Word unless it is to show where God has written something down.

There are several different words translated to the English 'salvation'. Being aware of this also makes a difference in one being in the position to acknowledge what God is saying and to whom.

Were you aware that Paul never warned them about going to hell? That the only thing Paul ever spoke about being able to lose is the 'reward'?

It must be understood that Paul was not speaking to people who didn't believe. These were believers. They already were past the salvation thing. They already knew that the name Jesus means Jahovah Saves, or the Salvation of Jehovah.

Also, please look up the word damnation, you will find that it is the word judgment. You will also find that judgment is against sin, for the salvation of the world, and it is judgment unto the shame for many who profess to know but deny the power of the resurrection, and that Israe will teach all these nations, bringing them to God.

We can also draw back into that shameful position, but we ourselves are saved as by fire, as it is written. Yes, we can lose the prize, we can fail to finish our course.

Why all the emphasis on Paul? Well, Paul spoke for Christ. You know how some people covet the red letter version because the words of the Lord are in red? Well, shouldn't they all be in red? people have a nasty tendensy to make divisions where God has not so divided. We must be very careful about God's Word, and use them in the way He has so used them.

The inspired apostle was led to write that the revelation of the dispensation of the mystery completes the word of God. And Paul is the sent apostle given to the nations after the Salvation of God was sent to the nations. That is why I am using Paul's epistles. Epistles without the preaching of hell in them.

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epouraniois
unregistered

posted

1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

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Carmela
Advanced Member
Member # 4817

posted

No, we have to teach people to turn from their sin, just as Jesus did. Jesus told the woman at the well to go and sin no more. He didn't tell her you now have eternal life and you are saved for life now.

I tell people that we all sin and fall short, but at the same time if we choose to live a life of sin, does that mean I will still get into heaven? There are often other things that look more pleasing to me then what God dangles in front of me. Of course those things are temporary but they still look good at the time.

quote:
Yeah? So? You accusing me of looking pretty without any doctrinial comprehension or what?

No, you look pretty and appear to have a great deal of doctrinal comprehension. However, not everyone falls under that category. Many Christians understand that they want Christ, but they son't have a true understanding of what they have to do to live the life they choose. Many continue to sin and even Pastors have been known to sin and everyone sees it. Of course there is repentance, but when I read your words, you do have a way of making sin look "pretty" in a way. I mean after all, if I didn't have the spiritual understanding that I have, I would love to jump into some of those temptations that look so good since I know I can sin and still be saved.

quote:
If you don't know what the verse means, don't avoid it. Study it for cryin out loud. Learn the doctrine. Read the Book. Get to know Him. It's better to admit that you haven't studied the form of sound words, might be sure which ones they are really, and open the Book before you go out there and look like you know sound doctrine but are resolved to teach a God who is always watching and is going to get you.

This is a good point, but I think you forget one thing. I have been studying this book in depth for two and a half years now. I'm given assignments and I have to read, search, seek out the answers. I don't take the bible lightly and just because we may not always agree doesn't mean I'm clueless. I'm not upset so please don't read this as if I am. Also, I don't pretend to be perfect just because I'm in bible school because school really means nothing in the long run. However, I have studied the words in depth and I know that God judges us by what we know so just because we disagree, doesn't mean one of us will receive more favor than the other. Now that I think of it, I'm the one being accused of having no doctrinal comprehension. I don't worry about what others say though because my only concern is doing the Lord's will.

I'm not even saying one can lose their salvation but I do wonder if others that are taught this really have been saved so they fall. Yet we are blindly telling people they are saved. In reality, only God knows the heart of man and only He can choose who is saved and who isn't.

My comments are more about the words used then the scriptures. Who am I to tell someone they are saved? I don't know the secrets of their heart. I know someone that went to church, talked the talk, looked good and later their secrets were revealed and the church found out they were pretending all along. Only God knows the truth so I don't think we should be teaching that once saved always saved because we really don't know the truth of who is truly saved and who isn't. Only God knows that and I'm not playing God. I know the scriptures, but I also know that the heart of man is wicked and it takes more than saying a prayer to be saved. We often think someone prayed and now they are saved. They fall because we take this for granted and they often don't get the nourishment they need to grow. Without growth, there is no salvation.

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www.pinecrest.org

Posts: 646 | From: Central New York | Registered: Jun 2005 | IP: Logged |

trafield
Advanced Member
Member # 5358

posted

quote:
Does this mean that if I want to give up a pure lifestyle and start having sex with everyone I meet that I will still be saved? Or if I want to kill someone that offended me I can and God will have mercy on me and I don't have to worry about any repercussion? By the way, do you mind if I ask you what country you feel called to?

Carmela,
If you are truly born again you would not want to do these things. Sure, it is possible to stumble...but to "willfully" and continually have the behaviors you are describing would most likely mean that you are unrepented and not saved, and never really believed to begin with. But that would be for God to judge, he knows who are his whether they already are, have wandered for a time, or have not yet been called.
That is what being born-again is all about, there is a change, a newness that comes by the Spirit that will convict us when we we sin (not if) and that will lead us back to the right path. And like Jonah, who tried to flee from God's direction, there is a price to pay for sin. So as Christians, we should know that we are going to be where God wants us to be...the only question is do we want to be swallowed by a whale to get there, or do we want to go with confidence, peace, and blessings?
So your question is really an absurd question, but the same absurd question that Paul also addressed in the book of Romans. I suggest you read that book and get the Word in you.

Romans 5:20-21
20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:1-14
1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

Carmela,
By the way, I am now in Northeast Tennesse. And debate me? You really don't want to go there. [cool_shades]

And anyway, if the Spirit is truly in you, I am confident that you will not lose your salvation and that you will be reigning with me in paradise!

Philippians 1:4-6
4In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005 | IP: Logged |

Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47

posted

Our Names are not written wen we confess or come to the knowledge of the saving Gospel. It is before we are born, remember that all evil spirits know and confess who is the Christ and yet they sear to eternal damnation. This yet is one of the topic that bring anger and hate to many, for the scriptures indicates that we are justify before God by the Lord Jesus Christ and this wonderful act of redemption was not in Calvary as you and I read but yet yes it was at the physical location of Golgotha.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Luk 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Salvation is not something fruitless but fruitful!
This in no wise give ANY a license to sin for Paul tells us that we should not take the Grace of God in vain “God forbid”. Sanctification is a process but thy name is written in that time God had ordained. [rapture]

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Romans 9:11-24

Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!

Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

epouraniois
unregistered

posted

quote:
Carmela

A person must first know what this means before they adapt it in their life. First a person has to "really" understand the true meaning of Christianity before they make a definite heart change. It's the heart that matters most after all, not the outward appearance. Many say the sinner's prayer, not everyone walks the walk after. They need to be nourished so they can grow.

Yeah?

You accusing me of looking pretty without any doctrinial comprehension or what?

I totally disagree. If you are waiting to understand God before you beleive, then give it up. It is impossible, for God is totally beyond us, and Christianity is all about getting to know Christ Jesus, our Saviour. Throughout the Bible, it requires just a little bit of faith on your part. If you can't trust the work of God and His stated will that none should be lost, then there is alot of trust that you do not have. And that seems natural, for how can we trust someone that we do not know? For if we knew God, His endless mercy and boundless love, we would just say, what wilt thou have me do, Lord? For only you know what is good and what is right, for I know nothing. You Lord, before the very heavens are unclean in your sight, who knoweth the end from the beginning, direct me into a fuller knowledge of you Lord, for you are my life and without you I have not hope at all.

If you don't know what the verse means, don't avoid it. Pray for it. Study it for cryin out loud. Learn the doctrine. Read the Book. Get to know Him. It's better to admit that you haven't studied the form of sound words, might be sure which ones they are really, and open the Book before you go out there and look like you know sound doctrine but are resolved to teach a God who is always watching and is going to get you.

Sound doctrine is the requirement.

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epouraniois
unregistered

posted

quote:
The problem that I see with this is that we can't be the ones to call someone a Christian and tell them they are saved when really don't know.

So you are going to tell them that God can;t really save them, that when God saves someone He doesn't really do it? That is like telling someone that can't walk that you brought them almost all the way, all they have to do is stand up and take one good step. Then they get riches untold. Even supposing they do it, you are having God say you can never fall or you lose your free gift. It's bogus. That is just unconscioably mean, messed up scare tactics. I suggest you begin with John 3:16.

I bet if I never heard of God, and I was told about the true God, you know, the one who came here and died for my sins, heard that I would be adopted into the family of God, that I would be pretty interested.

But if I was instead told, God is love, He died for your sins, but if you sin tomorrow you aren't saved anymore, well, I wouldn't spend too much time listening about how God is going to destroy me in His wrath for being a sinner.

God so loved the world. Do you realize that this is the first verse in the whole Bible that tells us God loved the world? God was dealing with Israel. Nobody else knew about the true and living God until 46A.D.

Then God only used a few gentiles to provoke Israel to stand up and claim her kingdom inheritance. Those gentiles had to stand outside and ask to hear a message after Israel's meetings were completed.

It did not provoke Israel. She was blinded after she rejected God a bunch of times. Those gentiles didn't have anyone to tell them about God anymore. It looked like Satan had won.

But Paul was given a revelation about this other part of God's plan that was before unknown. It involves what in the Bible is called, 'the church'. It is heavenly in its' charactor and position. The believers now are not dependant upon Israel. They are all equall. We belong to the one body. Ours is a glorious position, with exceeding riches, although I would be satisfied no matter what God chose to bless me with, knowing I can't deserve it. I am a sinner.

There is nothing I can do to earn it. It is all already done by the finished work of Christ.

Because I believe these things that are written, although I don't understand very much of it really, there is so much; God brings me peace and reveals His truths. I am no longer bound by the things of this world. I consider myself the same way God does, in Christ.

I have been crucified with Him, buried with Him, raised with Him, seated with Him. The Holy Spirit had already sealed in safekeeping my inheritance for me, waiting for me to come and find Christ.

I can't believe the world kept me blinded to what was right in front of me all along. Now that I can read God's letter that He wrote to me, I can get to know Him, and He is verily Love itelself.

What kind of God do we have? One that resurrected from the dead. Over 500 people saw Him afterwards, for 40 days, and He was seen on many occassion, with many infalible proofs. The Roman soldirs saw Him too.

The kind of God we have is one that never lies.

In the letters to the Jews, there is alot of talk about hell, but the word really just means the grave. In the letters to the rest of the world, the word hell is not mentioned. God is not working with Israel right now. He sent us the apostle of the reconcilation.

God was in Christ, not imputing our tresspasses to us, but was made sin for us. We are instructed to be reconciled to that fact.

Some don't believe God about that though. I don't understand that. Christ said you are in the Father's hands, and no man can pluck you out, and also you are in Christ's hands, and no one can pluck you out.

There are at least a hundred verses, all within the context of being saved by the grace of God. There is nothing I can do to deserve it. God loves me alot. More than I can understand. I can't understand it really.

But because He loves me so much, I don't want to hurt Him. I didn't really comprehend that I hurt Him before, but now I know that the one thing that makes God happy about me, is that I believe what has written to me. I know that not all the stories are about me, but that God did send me some very powerful letters after He suspended Israel's program.

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yeshuaslavejeff
Advanced Member
Member # 4506

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Pleasemaranatha:
So when is our names written in the book of life?
When someone prays to God and repents of their sins seeking His redeemption to make them saved and later falls or backslides are their names written in the book of life then or later when God brings them back. He never gives up on anyone. Once someone accepts Jesus and believes the gospel isn't their name written then?

that's what the false teachers all say, but you
won't find it in the Scripture. go ahead and look.
look for yourself and read what the disciples DID
who stayed with Jesus(Yeshua) and received G_d's
reward of righteousness, peace, and joy immediately, with the incredible bonus of eternal
life if they stayed with Him (note again how many
warnings are in the old and in the new testament
to stick with it, endure, obey no matter what the
persecution comes to or how long it lasts; read it
for yourself, no man, no preacher can tell you -
and most are not living according to G_d's Plan;
read it for yourself, now, today, don't wait. it
may be too late tomorrow, even though G_d Himself
keeps resceduling 'today' in His Great Mercy.)
those who have followed Yeshua outside the gate
in obedience to His Word by Faith(His Gift)
cannot abide the hypocrites nor the false gospel
that the false ones preach. Jesus gave His most stern warnings perhaps to beware the hypocrisy(leaven)
of the religious preachers and teachers. Jesus
said many woes to them(they are dmnd) for having
the keys to heaven and not entering in themselves,
and because they PREVENTED others from entering.
PREVENTED!?!? (the pastors and preachers and
evangelists and teachers and prophets, all false?
- no, maybe not all, as G_d has staked out a witness in every nation, among every people, for
Himself; no one will have an excuse on judgment
day for not hearing the truth - it is available)

i just noticed there are several other posts between your and mine. some are totally foreign
to the Scripture, some may be in line with Scripture. Only the Father can tell you, so honor Him as the Scripture declares, and He will
give your soul rest and reveal all truth to you.
It is that simple.
but if you trust in man and hold to man's ways,
then there is no hope at all - (Jesus' Word in all
four gospel accounts)

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1Peter4:1,2 Yeshua suffered physical suffering:disciples have same mind/ willingness to share shame/physical suffering with Yeshua/His people.
Biblio:"willtherealhereticsplease standup?"byBercot(churchTruth)

Posts: 75 | From: tulsa | Registered: Mar 2005 | IP: Logged |

Pleasemaranatha
Advanced Member
Member # 5150

posted

So when is our names written in the book of life?

When someone prays to God and repents of their sins seeking His redeemption to make them saved and later falls or backslides are their names written in the book of life then or later when God brings them back. He never gives up on anyone. Once someone accepts Jesus and believes the gospel isn't their name written then?

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My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning. Psalms 130 verse 6

Joyce

Posts: 308 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005 | IP: Logged |

epouraniois
unregistered

posted

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh (that is, those Israelites that did meet the Lord Jesus), yet now henceforth know we him no more (after the flesh).
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us; we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Paul speaking about the body of Christ here:
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Note that Paul doesn't speak of hell once, it's all about speaking to those who already believe. For the most part, Salvation is not even an issue, but Paul uses is as a stepping stone to speak to them about the reward and the crown.

To the Jew it was New Jerusalem, to the Gentile, well, they were made partakers of Israel's spiritual things, while the one body is a new creation and looks to the heavenly places seated with Christ far above all, in Christ, foreordained before the age times began.

For the believers, they are told to not keep laying these first principles again and again, but to continue onto perfction, that is to say, to full growth.

you gotta have some serious thus saith the Lords' before you just decide to not believe all the thus saith the Lords' that state so clearly that it is the redeemers plan to save the whole world, so far I haven't seen one.

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Carmela
Advanced Member
Member # 4817

posted

UMMMM Trafied...are you saying this is me?

quote:
I am surrounded here in Tennessee by Free Will Baptist churches who are also minimizing and belittling the Grace of God by their legalistic view of salvation.

If you are, I just might have to take a trip to Tennessee and have some serious debate with you. [Big Grin]

First, when we say once saved always saved, we have to remember that although there are strong Christian's that are true believers, we are also teaching this doctrine to new believers. The problem that I see with this is that we can't be the ones to call someone a Christian and tell them they are saved when really don't know. I have met people that show fruit in their lives, yet they were like to seed planted on unfertile soil and they didn't grow very big before dying. Why would Jesus give that parable? What I believe we should first teach people is about true foundational Christianity, growth that should be taking place and biblical foundations. What good does once saved always saved do if a person's doesn't form a deeply grounded root first?

Epouraniois you quoted:

quote:
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by (grace ye are saved;)

A person must first know what this means before they adapt it in their life. First a person has to "really" understand the true meaning of Christianity before they make a definite heart change. It's the heart that matters most after all, not the outward appearance. Many say the sinner's prayer, not everyone walks the walk after. They need to be nourished so they can grow.

quote:
DON'T YOU REALIZE, THAT IF EVEN ONE OF HIS LOVED ONES DIDN'T MAKE IT, THE REDEEMER WOULD HAVE FAILED IN HIS PERFECT REDEMPTIVE PLAN OF THE AGES?

If I can make it to heaven whether I'm a sinner or not, then why should I spend my life sacrificing the things that I want to do? Now, having a deeper understanding of the true meaning of Christianity, I know the answer to this. However, if I were a new Christian I certainly wouldn't want to give up my "fun" life and make sacrifices if I believe I will still go to heaven anyway.

quote:
We can definately lose our reward, but Salvation is not of works, it is by the grace of God through faith, and that, not of yourselves. Reward is above and beyond salvation, it is extra for those who finish their course, who continue unto the end. Romans explains how God can be the just, and the justifier of the ungodly.

Salvation is my reward.

Trafield:

quote:
You see, Carmela, it is not about us...it is about God. We do have free will, but it is much more limited than many want to believe. Those who want to question God about this are really showing that they are having trouble surrendering to His Will by making it all about our limited will.

Does this mean that if I want to give up a pure lifestyle and start having sex with everyone I meet that I will still be saved? Or if I want to kill someone that offended me I can and God will have mercy on me and I don't have to worry about any repercussion? By the way, do you mind if I ask you what country you feel called to?

To me, teaching that we are saved forever can actually do more harm then good sometimes.

God is full of mercy and grace and He is loving and kind, but we see his judgment in the bible. We see His wrath.

quote:
For if we cannot confidently embrace the salvation that is ours, I believe the Spirit is quenched within us and we will not be as effective in our walk.
I thank God that in these last days there will be an outpouring of Grace, because many sadly have lost touch with what it really mean to have it.

In my life, I have done this. It isn't always the case for everyone though.

Trafield says:

quote:
Though God changed Saul's heart for a time so that he could lead God's people, this should not be confused with a spirtual conversion in my opinion.
Saul proved himself unfaithful and showed that through his rebelliousness.
And even though Samuel tells Saul (in (15:23) that God had rejected him because Saul had rejected his word, notice that in (15:30-31) Saul still wants to worship the Lord in front of the elders so that he would appear as righteoous. Saul was a pretender.
Bus as Samuel tells Saul (in V. 29),God does not lie or change his mind. If God does not change his mind, then how can we believe Saul was spirtually converted?
Yes, Saul "appeared" changed, yes Saul even had the power of God come upon him and prophesy, but he never had faith. And without faith it is impossible to please God. Without faith in God, we die in our sins.

So if this is true of Saul, then can't it be true of others? Saul may have thought he was saved. Saul probably thought he found favor with the Lord. The same is true for many other believers that start out feeling they are Christians and they are taught once saved always saved, and then they turn from God and God leaves them.

See, I do believe that there are Christians that will be saved forever because God is a God of forgiveness but we must have a repentant heart first.

Hosea 13:14-16
14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.
15 Though he be fruitful among his brethren, an east wind shall come, the wind of the LORD shall come up from the wilderness, and his spring shall become dry, and his fountain shall be dried up: he shall spoil the treasure of all pleasant vessels.
16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
(KJV)

They rebelled and were destroyed because of it.

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Posts: 646 | From: Central New York | Registered: Jun 2005 | IP: Logged |

epouraniois
unregistered

posted

HisGrace, are you saying that because we don't know what happened to Saul in the future resurrection, that all the verses stating Salvation is by Grace, there is nothing we can do to earn it, that God is then lying?

Don't you know what redemption means? It means to buy back. It is already been paid for by the blood of Christ. The very fact that He rose from the dead proves that He paid for every sin, every last one of them. The sin issue has been taken care of.

That God punishes those who do continue in sin while in the flesh should not ever be confused with the gift of and purpose of the redemptive plan of the ages.

Those who say they are saved when they abide in Christ, but are not saved when they slip up do not understand abiding. Abiding means continually ever yielding.

It is impossible to abide today and not tomorro. The life is either yielded to the Spirit or it has not.

Note that this will not say we have peace in Christ, but that He IS our peace. He made both the Jew and the gentile into a new creation by the breaking down of the middle wall, there is no difference in the one body. It is one body.

Eph 2:14
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17
And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

If anyone is lacking the deep ocean of peace in their lifes, then what is needed is a true yielding to Christ, not trying to prove things you believe is corrrect, but taking in the whole truth, appointing to yourselves only that which was written to you, not taking Israel's things and comparing them. There is no comparison, they were an eaerthly people, God is building up a spiritual body.

We pound out what, 50, 60 verses easily, all stating salvation is a gift by the grace of God, and you would rather not believe what is written because it upsets your belief system.

Sometimes is it better to just yield to that which is written, just believe it, the Holy Spirit wrote it for instruction, for reproof, &c.

Eph 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7
Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
Eph 5:8
For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Eph 5:9
(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
Eph 5:10
Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
Eph 5:11
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Eph 5:12
For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
Eph 5:13
But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
Eph 5:14
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
Eph 5:15
See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
Eph 5:16
Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
Eph 5:17
Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

Who here believes that it is unwise to say God was not in Christ, reconciling all things unto Himself, not imputing sin to us, but imputing sin unto Himself, being made sin for us?

Who here beleives that what is written is not true?

Who believes Salvation is not by the blood and the finished work on the cross, but that Salvatiohn is up to them, not God?

Who here believes that God requires or even wants our filthy rags to help Him redeem the whole company of heaven and earth rather than just believe that He came go save sinners?

1Ti 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

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Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47

posted

Great words of comfort and Hope been said on this topic, for our Hope is in that which the Lord Jesus did not only at Calvary [thumbsup2]

but in the Eternal counsel with the Father and the Holy Spirit. [Bible]

What a blessed Hope [angel3]

we have in Christ Jesus Our Lord and Savior! [youpi]

quote:
HOPE is a desire of some good, accompanied with at least a slight expectation of obtaining it, or a belief that it is obtainable. Hope differs from wish and desire in this, that it implies some expectation of obtaining the good desired, or the possibility of possessing it. Hope therefore always gives pleasure or joy; whereas wish and desire may produce or be accompanied with pain and anxiety.

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trafield
Advanced Member
Member # 5358

posted

quote:
Carmela tweaked my interest on another thread when she said that 'God withdrew his spirit from Saul', even though Saul had turned back to God.

Though God changed Saul's heart for a time so that he could lead God's people, this should not be confused with a spirtual conversion in my opinion.
Saul proved himself unfaithful and showed that through his rebelliousness.
And even though Samuel tells Saul (in (15:23) that God had rejected him because Saul had rejected his word, notice that in (15:30-31) Saul still wants to worship the Lord in front of the elders so that he would appear as righteoous. Saul was a pretender.
Bus as Samuel tells Saul (in V. 29),God does not lie or change his mind. If God does not change his mind, then how can we believe Saul was spirtually converted?
Yes, Saul "appeared" changed, yes Saul even had the power of God come upon him and prophesy, but he never had faith. And without faith it is impossible to please God. Without faith in God, we die in our sins.

Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005 | IP: Logged |

saved1948
Advanced Member
Member # 5391

posted

I believe in once saved always saved.

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John 3:16+6\[/p..................For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,that whoever believed in Him should not perish but have everlasting life

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HisGrace
unregistered

posted

quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
Just some questions that must have a Biblical answer, I don't need an answer, but if you are going to deny the Salvation that God came in the flesh and died and rose again because He first loved us, then it should be based upon sound doctrine, not personal beliefs.

All my answers are biblically based.

Carmela tweaked my interest on another thread when she said that 'God withdrew his spirit from Saul', even though Saul had turned back to God.

1 Samuel 15:30,31 Then Saul pleaded again, "I know I have sinned. But please, at least honor me before the leaders and before my people by going with me to worship the LORD your God." So Samuel finally agreed and went with him, and Saul worshiped the LORD.

Vrs. 35 Samuel never went to meet with Saul again, but he mourned constantly for him. And the LORD was sorry he had ever made Saul king of Israel.

1 Sam.16:1: Finally, the LORD said to Samuel, "You have mourned long enough for Saul. I have rejected him as king of Israel.

Vrs. 14 - Now the Spirit of the LORD had left Saul, and the LORD sent a tormenting spirit that filled him with depression and fear.

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trafield
Advanced Member
Member # 5358

posted

Good scriptures, Epo!
This is really an important topic and one that I am beginning to feel in my Spirit that is keeping many in bondage in the area of the county that God has recently called me to.
For if we cannot confidently embrace the salvation that is ours, I believe the Spirit is quenched within us and we will not be as effective in our walk.
I thank God that in these last days there will be an outpouring of Grace, because many sadly have lost touch with what it really mean to have it.

Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005 | IP: Logged |

epouraniois
unregistered

posted

Phi 3:3
For we are the circumcision, (that is, the true circumcision, the true Christian) which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Col 2:11
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Tit 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us

But after one believes, the faith is put into action. Some say works has no place at all, but that isn't correct. But Salvation is not based on anything we can do, but after we believe we are to be Christ's unto good works:

Tit 3:7
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Tit 3:8
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Tit 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Tit 2:15
These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Salvation has already taken place, and good works are as natural as grapes on the vine, and only the believer can product good works, and if there are no fruits on the vine the something is wrong.

Tit 3:14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

That which we do in the spirit is called fruits, whereas that which we do in the flesh is called works:

So works come after faith, and a knowledge of the Scriptures. The Scriptures are the blueprint for that pattern which we are foreordained that we should walk in them (Eph 2:10).

Rom 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Our problem is that we don't have all the law and the ordinances like the Jews had to tell us what to do. Our calling, and our walk is not of this world, ours is one of spirit, all our blessings are spiritual, and we don't have to wait till we are resurrected to partake in the spiritual blessings in this life; if we are going to find what God calls our worthy walk, we must study the letters written to us, for the body of Christ is a new creation. You can read about it in Eph, Col, 2 Tim, and Ph'p.

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epouraniois
unregistered

posted

Carmela, please consider the Scriptures:

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by (grace ye are saved;)

Past tense, it is already finished by the work on the cross;

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

And the members of His body are already seen as being seated together in Christ Jesus;

Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

THE EXCEEDING RICHES OF HIS GRACE

Eph 2:8 For by grace
are ye saved
through faith;
and that
not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works,
lest any man
should boast.

notice the great emphasis placed on grace. it is all of God, works has no place as far as The Salvation Of God is concerned. Paul brings this out rather strongly in Romans;

Rom 11:6 And if by grace,
then is it no more of works:
otherwise
grace is no more grace.
But if it be of works,
then is it no more grace:
otherwise work is no more work.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us,
and called us
with a holy calling,
not according to our works,
but according to his own purpose
and grace,
which was given us
in Christ Jesus
before the world began,

IF YOU WERE GIVEN SALVATION BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN, HOW CAN IT BE BASED ON ANYTHING WE MIGHT DO? AND HOW IS IT THAT IT GOD IS GOING TO LET ONE OF HIS BELOVED NOT MAKE IT INTO THE KINGDOM OF THE SON OF HIS LOVE WHEN YOUR SALVATION WAS PROMISED BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN?

DO YOU KNOW WHAT FAITH MEANS? IT MEANS YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THE WORK THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE. FAITH IS THE TITLE DEED. YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE SALVATION OF GOD, BUT BY FAITH YOU SHOW OWNERSHIP. DISBELIEVING GOD IS A LACK OF FAITH AND IS AS GOOD AS A NON BELIEVER. FAITH IS BELIEVING GOD AND ACTING UPON IT.

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself

DON'T YOU REALIZE, THAT IF EVEN ONE OF HIS LOVED ONES DIDN'T MAKE IT, THE REDEEMER WOULD HAVE FAILED IN HIS PERFECT REDEMPTIVE PLAN OF THE AGES?

Psa 106:8 Nevertheless he saved them for his name's sake, that he might make his mighty power to be known.

1Jo 4:8 ...God is love.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

I think you might be mixing up salvation with reward. Salavation is definately a free gift. The Holy Spirit has so written it many times.

We can definately lose our reward, but Salvation is not of works, it is by the grace of God through faith, and that, not of yourselves. Reward is above and beyond salvation, it is extra for those who finish their course, who continue unto the end. Romans explains how God can be the just, and the justifier of the ungodly.

Praying alway, The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places.

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trafield
Advanced Member
Member # 5358

posted

quote:
I was asked this question in email the other day and I don't remember what I replied. However, some people think they are saved but deep down they are really not. So, it may appear they lost their salvation. Others were saved but allow sin back in and fall. I do believe that they can lose salvation because even though we are called and chosen, we have a choice. A free will.

I am surrounded here in Tennessee by Free Will Baptist churches who are also minimizing and belittling the Grace of God by their legalistic view of salvation. Here is the way I would answer them and you concerning the same questions concerning God's Soverign Choice and our free will:

Romans 9:14-24
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

You see, Carmela, it is not about us...it is about God. We do have free will, but it is much more limited than many want to believe. Those who want to question God about this are really showing that they are having trouble surrendering to His Will by making it all about our limited will.

Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005 | IP: Logged |

epouraniois
unregistered

posted

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

How can you lose what is sealed by the Holy Spirit or promise till the day of redemption?

Why don't you believe that Christ died for the sin of the world?

That the plan of the ages is the redemptive plan of God?

Just some questions that must have a Biblical answer, I don't need an answer, but if you are going to deny the Salvation that God came in the flesh and died and rose again because He first loved us, then it should be based upon sound doctrine, not personal beliefs.

The very thought that God requires your help deminsihes the finished work of on the tree, but He did it because you can't.

Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him

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trafield
Advanced Member
Member # 5358

posted

quote:
However, I do believe that we can lose our salvation. Here, some teachers choose one side and others choose another side. All I can do is make sure that I do my best to follow God's commands so I don't lose salvation but I believe people can.

You cannot do anything to "make sure" other than have faith in the one who already paid the price for you.
Look at the following scriptures. When we become saved we have the Spirit of Christ within us. And when this happens, we are alive because of the righteousness of Christ. "it is no longer I that live, but Christ within me."
When we are saved we are a new creation, with Chist in us. For us to be able to turn away after being reborn, would be Christ turning away from Himself!
God does not want you to follow his commands out of a lack of confidence, but by assurance and confidence of your salvation by his amazing Grace!

2 Corinthians 5:1-9
1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Romans 8:1-9
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

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Carmela
Advanced Member
Member # 4817

posted

I only skimmed through the posts because there are way too many.

However, I will say that we don't know that Judas didn't repent. We don't know that He wasn't forgiven. He could be with Jesus right now for all we know.

I see arguing for both sides. Personally, I don't think that what our belief is on this topic is what will keep us from heaven or cause us to get into heaven so I try to major in the majors and minor in the minors...as I've heard it said.

However, I do believe that we can lose our salvation. Here, some teachers choose one side and others choose another side. All I can do is make sure that I do my best to follow God's commands so I don't lose salvation but I believe people can.

I was asked this question in email the other day and I don't remember what I replied. However, some people think they are saved but deep down they are really not. So, it may appear they lost their salvation. Others were saved but allow sin back in and fall. I do believe that they can lose salvation because even though we are called and chosen, we have a choice. A free will. We are given many chances but we see that God took his spirit away from Saul right?

--------------------
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epouraniois
unregistered

posted

Some of you people on this board, and all over the world, are giving me some pie in the sky salvation, saying I am not really saved, for tomorrow God may change His mind, although the work is finished.

Is that the way you mean to be representing my God as being? Is that the way God has represented Himself? A pie in the sky kinda God who doesn't really mean it when He says where sin abounds, grace much more abounds, doesn't really mean it when He says Christ was made sin for me, not imputing sin unto me, but rather, imputing sin unto Himself?

My God is not double minded.

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began

I will do a study on this, but for now, the word hope is not some maybe, I wish I could, well, if the weather permits, no. Biblical hope is a surety, it is not a maybe, and is often translated 'trusted', and always looks forward to a promise believed.

Hope then, could be much better understood by the word, "expectation"!!!

Hope is always related to a calling, and the calling is awlays related to a blessing, and a blessing is always related to an inheritance, and each inheritance is related to a specific sphere, of which there are three:

1. The Earth. - "Blessed are the meek; for they shall inherit the earth" (Matt. 5:5).
2. The Heavenly City. - "The city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem . . . and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven" (Heb. 12:22,23).
3. Far above all. - "He ascended up, far above all heavens" (Eph.4:10). "And made us sit together in heavenly places" (Eph. 2:6).

1. The Kingdom. - "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth" (Matt. 6:10).
2. The Bride. - "The Bride, the Lamb's wife . . . the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God" (Rev. 21:9,10).
3. The Body. - "His body. . . the church: whereof I (Paul) am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you . . . the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations" (Col. 1 :24-26).

1. Israel according to the flesh. - "My kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises, whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, Who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen" (Rom. 9:3-5).
2. Abraham's seed (includes believing Gentiles). - "Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? . . . they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. . . . For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ, have put on Christ. There is neither Jew or Greek . . . for ye are .all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Gal. 3:3,7,9,27-29).
3. The One New Man. - "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew . . . but Christ is all and in all" (Col. 3:11).
"That He might create in Himself of the twain one new man, so making peace" (Eph. 2:15 R.V.).
"That the Gentiles should be fellow-heirs" (Eph. 3:6).

1. Kingdom on earth. - HOPE. Matt.24-25.
2. Abraham's seed (heavenly calling). - HOPE. 1 Thess. 4.
3. Far above all. - HOPE. Col. 3:4.

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trafield
Advanced Member
Member # 5358

posted

quote:
Many people chose to walk away from God and live for the things of the world...you cannot possibly tell me that when they die (while still feeling in their heart total disobedience towards God) that they will still enter Heaven.

How do you know "previously saved" (yuk! what an ugly, ridiculous term!) people choose to walk away from God? Are you saying you could see into their hearts and know they were saved to begin with? And how do you know that those that wander for a time, are not led back by God and serve him even more than before?
If we are truly His sheep, he will let not us wander far. Or have we now even forgetting the whole concept as Jesus as the Shepherd?
This is why we need to line up reality with scripture...not with our natural eyes, but our spiritual eyes.
It is God who calls us and God who gives us the Holy Spirit as a deposit...and I am confident that "he who began a good work in us will carry it on to completition until the day of Christ Jesus. (Phillipians 3:6)

It is amazing to me that so many Christians want to minimize God's Grace and His Calling in our lives! Talk about grieving and blaspheming the Spirit! Father, forgive them! [Prayer]

Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005 | IP: Logged |

epouraniois
unregistered

posted

Vessel of Grace made some points regarding our walk, and quoted the doctrinal section of Ephesians, namely, the first three chapters, of which, a portion is contributed to the central prayer.

I might say further, that in this particular doctrine, is set forth those things which in other ages were not made known, and find a very different application to the other callings and hopes set forth in the Gospel and the Acts.

It is in this light that we may desire to look at the fruit, or the practical walk of the believer as set forth by the root, the doctrinal section:

Practice (4:1 to 6:20).

(1) THREEFOLD EXHORTATION (4:1-6).
(a) Walk worthy of calling.
(b) Forbear in love.
(c) Keep the unity.

(2) THREEFOLD MEASURE (4:7-19).
(a) The gift of Christ.
(b) The fulness of Christ.
(c) The measure of every part.

(3) THREEFOLD APPLICATION (4:20-32).
(a) Put off old man.
(b) Put on new man.
(c) Put away the lie.

(4) THREEFOLD WALK (5:1 to 6:9).
(a) Walk in love.
(b) Walk as light.
(c) Walk circumspectly.

(5) THREEFOLD STAND (6:10- 13).
(a) Stand against Devil.
(b) Withstand evil day.
(c) Stand having ‘worked out’.

(6) THREEFOLD EQUIPMENT (6:14-18).
(a) Girdle and breast-plate.
(b) Shoes and shield.
(c) Helmet and sword.

(7) THREEFOLD PRAYER (6:19,20).
(a) Open mouth.
(b) Speak boldly.
(c) As I ought.

The Central Prayer (3:14-21)
(a) That He would grant strength.
(b) That ye may be able to comprehend.
(c) That ye might be filled unto all the fulness of God.

Again, it is not probable that anyone can possibly produce the fruit of this walk without having first mastered the doctrine as set forth in the first three chapters. And it is this walk that particularly pertains to the only company of believers called, 'the church', as all that came before was to the hope of Israel, and hers is a kingdom, not a church.

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BORN AGAIN
unregistered

posted

Trafield writes to BORN AGAIN

quote:
Which brings me back to people that "appear" to have once believed, never really believed in the first place.

To me it is utter and complete nonsense [happyhappy]

to say that someone "never really believed in the first place." Reality isn't that flimsy. Just ask a woman if she "shopped but never really shoppe." Or ask a liar if "he lied but never really lied". Believing is no different; the moment I believed in Jesus, I believed in Jesus. There was nothing "nebulous" about it. I remember the day well.

Now, I did not give up my faith, in fact, my faith grew. But I know people who one-hundred percent believed, but they went to university and came out believing in Darwin and never looked back at the Bible ever again.

That person, is fallen from grace, in my opinion.

God bless, BORN AGAIN [Cross]

"God is in control, but He has His limits"

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Vessel of Grace
New Member
Member # 5423

posted

Epouraniois: We are sealed unto the day of redemption with the Holy Spirit. But you can grieve the Holy Spirit, and if you are not empty of "self", then the Holy Spirit will not dwell within you. I completely believe that you can lose your salvation. Many people chose to walk away from God and live for the things of the world...you cannot possibly tell me that when they die (while still feeling in their heart total disobedience towards God) that they will still enter Heaven. We must be very careful how we interpret scripture. Do not forget all the scripture that says if you do this or that you will not enter into the Kingdom, etc, etc, etc. I pray that all of us on the boards will seek God's complete and full truths, because His promise is that if we truly seek, we will find. God never changes and always keeps His promises. He will ensure that if we truly seek, He will answer. I pray that the Lord will continue to show us His truths and not some "half-true" story, which Satan is so good at deceiving us all by. He did it in the garden of Eden with Eve and Adam and he will continue twisting scripture around just the slightest to lead people down in darkness instead of Light. We need to always pray and ask the Holy Spirit to give us discernment and God's wisdom and understanding that can only come from above when reading the Holy Bible. I believe the Holy Bible is the ONLY book that reveals God's complete truths. Do not ever listen to what man says until you've tested it in the bible. If it is not biblically sound, then it comes from Satan. Satan will use people as he has always done, to do his work, just like God does. Satan counterfeits almost everything God does (to a degree), but of course, we know that Satan cannot show true love.

God bless.

quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
The new gospel given in Ephesians is very clear.

God the Father sees us the same way He sees His Son, IN HIM!!!

And this is because we are sealed until the day of redemption. The church body are a different company, one chosen before the foundation of the world.

WE are to see ourselves as dead, risen, raised, and seated, with Him, in heavenly places, NOW.

He sees us this way.

You are to see yourselves in this way.

Then He can come and be IN YOU.

And you can then respond to the call to WALK WORTHY.

He doesn't just call us to this worthy walk when we cannot do it, that would be horrifying.

1:15-19. PAUL’S FIRST PRAYER.
That He may give.
That you may know.
The hope, riches, power of the Mystery.

We can walk this particular worthy walk that is set before us in the first three chapters of Ephesians. It is a higher walk because it is a higher calling, but the good new is, The Salvation of God was sent to the nations and we will hear it, (Acts 28. 28.).

Look at the breakdown of the doctrine before you commit to yourselves that Christ is unable or unwilling to keep your salvation sealed till the day of redemption:

(1) THE THREEFOLD CHARTER (1:3-14).
(a) The Will of the Father.
(b) The Work of the Son.
(c) The Witness of the Spirit.

(2) THE THREEFOLD PRAYER (1:15-19).
(a) That ye may know.-Hope.
(b) That ye may know.-Inheritance.
(c) That ye may know.-Power.

(3) THE THREEFOLD UNION (1:19 to 2:7).
(a) Quickened together.
(b) Raised together.
(c) Seated together.

(4) THREE WORKS (2:8-10).
(a) Not of works.
(b) We are His work.
(c) Unto good works.

(5) THREEFOLD PEACE (2:11-19).
(a) Far off nigh.-Peace.
(b) Two made one.-Peace.
(c) He came and preached.-Peace.

(6) THREEFOLD UNION (2:19-22).
(a) Citizens together.
(b) Framed together.
(c) Builded together.

(7) THREEFOLD EQUALITY (3:1-13).
(a) Heirs together.
(b) Members together.
(c) Partakers together.

Now this is the instructions for the church, His body. This is how you are seen by God, in Him.

This acknowledgment leads to the worthy walk, which is the practical outcome of mastering this doctrine.

The Central Prayer (3:14-21)

(a) That He would grant strength.
(b) That ye may be able to comprehend.
(c) That ye might be filled unto all the fulness of God.

--------------------
May God reveal more and more of His truths to you.

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epouraniois
unregistered

posted

Sorry, that was written by Charles H. Welch probably around 1930-40.

But just answer me this, what is it exactly that you do not believe about this verse:

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

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epouraniois
unregistered

posted

I beleive this to be written by Oscar Baker, but am not sure, nevertheless, there may be an important lessen to be learned by it:

What then?

"What then? notwithstanding every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached, and I therein rejoice, yea and will rejoice" (Phil. i. 18).

The words "what then," taken alone, have little or no meaning, but read in the light of the context in which they occur in Phil. i., a very precious lesson may be learned. Possibly the day had been when the apostle would have been roused by the miserable pettiness of those who refrained not from making the sacred proclamation of Christ a means of adding affliction to his imprisonment, and of seeking to make a party in opposition to the blessed unity which the apostle so loved. But now he had learned that the wrath of man even in the cause of truth hindered but never helped. He had learned to find his cause of rejoicing in "things above," and to seek to know "the fellowship of His sufferings" as something far more precious than the peace and quietness of earth. The grand yet difficult lesson of this passage is the complete subjection of everything personal. This is seen very clearly in the structure of the passage which is as follows:-

Phil. i. 12-26.

* A | 12,13. What Paul would have them know. Bonds were for furtherance of gospel.
o B | 14-18-. "Christ is preached." Personal consideration, such as "envy and strife," lost sight of.
+ C | -18. Paul rejoicing in result of bonds.
+ C | 19-20-. Paul expecting deliverance from bonds.
o B | -20-24. "Christ shall be magnified." Personal consideration, such as "life and death," lost sight of.
* A | 25,26. What Paul knew. His continuance was for their furtherance of faith.

The two members "B" ("Christ is preached") and "B" ("Christ shall be magnified") are the two foci around which the other passages are arranged. Some were preaching Christ even of envy and strife. Each of the words "envy," "strife," and "goodwill" occur nine times in the New Testament. Envy moved the leaders of Israel to deliver the Lord Jesus to death (Matt. xxvii. 18). It is found in the midst of abominations (Rom. i. 29), and is the work of the flesh (Gal. v. 21). So also strife is found in Rom. i, 29 and Gal. v. 20. It was prevalent among the carnal Corinthians ( I Cor. i. 11; iii. 3; 2 Cor. xii. 20).

Goodwill, on the other hand, is a fitting frame for heralding Christ and His gospel (Luke ii. 14). The heart's desire of the apostle to those who were moved with envy and malice against himself was for their salvation (Rom. x. 1). Goodwill (good pleasure A.V.) is the grand setting of the glorious purposes of God according to Eph. i. 5 and 9. Those who preached out of goodwill were actuated by love. True, in Phil. i., love is linked with knowledge. First, in the prayer of verse 9, the apostle who desired that they may have knowledge and discernment and ability to "try the things which differed" asks that "their love may abound." Knowledge without love would have given an acid tongue and a pharisaic spirit. In the passage immediately before us love is linked with knowledge. Some regarded the imprisonment of the apostle as a judgment from God, but others knew that he had been "set" for the defence of the gospel. In his noble endurance they loved him the more, and, moved by love out of goodwill, carried on the work he loved so well.

There is a solemn note struck here to which we should all give heed. The matter of the preaching was excellent. All preached Christ. The motive, however, was diverse. Those who preached Christ of envy and strife, of contention and pretense, did so "not sincerely." The word for sincere is rendered "chaste" in 2 Cor. xi. 2, and "pure" in Phil. iv. 8, while the noun "pureness" occurs in 2 Cor. vi. 6 (see parallel though different word in. 2 Cor. ii. 17). This reference leads us to see how the apostle ever sought to make his "doctrine, purpose, manner of life" agree. "Whatsoever things are honest ... *if* there be any virtue, and *if* there be any praise (logizesthe) think, reckon, impute these things" (Phil. iv. 8). He knew that Christ was preached of envy and strife, of contention and hatred, but he meets it with the glorious "WHAT THEN? *Christ is preached.*" Stop there! he seems to say. Go no further. The Lord alone has the right to judge men and motives; if there be any virtue, if there be any praise, I will reckon these things, I will think on these things. WHAT THEN? Christ is preached, and I rejoice.

The readers of this magazine may at times find themselves the objects of hatred, malice, misrepresentation. Meet it beloved readers with Paul's "What then." If reviled, revile not again, if suffering, threaten not; you are in good hands. The perfect One Himself never attempted selfvindication; how much less His failing followers. If these few words are of any consolation, it is only in fulfilment of the passage, "the God of all comfort, Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God" (2 Cor. 1:3,4).

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epouraniois
unregistered

posted

beleiving is the act of an overcomer, and this is counted for righteousness. it does not make one righteous, it makes one an overcomer. those who are not overcomers will be raised unto their shame and be instructed for a thousand years. then there are ages after this as well.

and we know that only one has been named to perish, this constantly placeing others in the same catagory as Satan pretty much denies that Christ can to save the whole world, that He died for the ungodly, that all have sinned and none are righteous, that God was in Christ not imputing sin unto them but that He became sin for them, imputing the sin of the world unto Himself.

Yes, it is called a free gift. and it is the acknowldgment of this free gift which leads, not to just to whatever the flip, but to walk worthy of the calling wherein which we are called.

and if you don't, you lose the reward of the overcomer, but your knee will bow and your tongue will confess one way or another.

it may be now
or it may be when you see Him who is verily Love itself, and every fiber of desire becomes, finally, of that substance by which the only desire is to please Him who first love you.

Rom 5:15 But not as the offense, so also is the free gift. For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses unto justification.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Christians are supposted to be the ones who know about this free gift. I guess this just show why we have to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Well, if you don't think Christ came to save sinners, then you better start working out your salvation before you lose the reward of the overcomer. That's my advice. Where is your faith in Christ, to make you think He leaves the salvation of God in the hands of men?

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trafield
Advanced Member
Member # 5358

posted

BA says:

quote:
yea, we must do something, but thanks be to God, the thing we must do is "totally easy", namely, "only believe" or "have faith".

Which brings me back to people that "appear" to have once believed, never really believed in the first place.
There! Now we are back at the beginning. [spiny]

Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005 | IP: Logged |

trafield
Advanced Member
Member # 5358

posted

quote:
From the above verses it follows that, if "by grace are you saved", then when a person is "fallen from grace", then they also cannot be "saved" since "by grace are you saved".

Let me try this again...
There are many aspects to Grace. One is the saving Grace of God. Another aspects of God's Grace is to allow the non-believer to continue living his life of paganism a little longer...

So is Paul warning Galatians that are saved that they can fall from the SAVING grace, or another aspect of God's Grace?
Based on the many,many, many scriptures (left in context I might add) that we have shown that you CANNOT lose your salvation if you are truly born again, then obviously Paul is referring to falling away from the grace of God that brings the Peace of God which transcends all understanding. He is not talking about losing your salvation..he is talking about taking off the yoke of slavery that you and 'HisGrace' are wearing and would rather us wear as well....God forbid. He is talking about standing firm in your faith as an ETERNAL child of God, not going through life worried that you might grow complacent enough to miss out on Eternity.

Romans 10:10-11
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

So now we have a forever saved, and a never be put to shame. Thank you Jesus! [Prayer]

Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005 | IP: Logged |

trafield
Advanced Member
Member # 5358

posted

quote:
From the above verses it follows that, if "by grace are you saved", then when a person is "fallen from grace", then they also cannot be "saved" since "by grace are you saved".

Not necessarily true, as I already adressed in my earlier post. You may want to read it again.

Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005 | IP: Logged |

BORN AGAIN
unregistered

posted

epouraniois writes to BA

quote:
"It seems you are saying that this free gift of grace is something God is double minded about, that it really isn't a free gift and it really isnt grace, that we must do something..."

yea, we must do something, but thanks be to God, the thing we must do is "totally easy", namely, "only believe" or "have faith".

Mark 5:36
As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe.

Galatians 3:6
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Abraham "believed God" and it was "counted to him for righteousness." It is the same with us; if you wish to call "believing" "work", then I hope you "work it, baby."

Indeed, if we had to do "abosulutely nothing" because it is "all free, free, free", then "everybody would be saved in the whole world because they (we) have to do "nothing, nothing, nothing, whoopie!"

God bless, BORN AGAIN

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epouraniois
unregistered

posted

quote:
From the above verses it follows that, if "by grace are you saved", then when a person is "fallen from grace", then they also cannot be "saved" since "by grace are you saved".

It seems you are saying that this free gift of grace is something God is double minded about, that it really isn't a free gift and it really isnt grace, that we must do something, so what do we then do with all the verses that state where sin abounds, grace much more abounds, and that in the very context of the gift by grace in Ephesians, we just read a verses back that this is the purpose of God chosen in Him from before the foundation of the world, and that you hath He quickened who were dead in sin?

It can't be both ways, God is not double minded, it is a gift, and that not of yourself, not by works lest any man should boast, or better, be able to boast, and so it is with the grace of God.

Believers faith is however, counted for righteousness, and during the Acts and before, that faith find their inheritance in the Heavenly City, while in the prison ministry that faith finds their inheritance in the out resurrection out from amoung the dead.

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BORN AGAIN
unregistered

posted

Trafield said to BORN AGAIN

quote:
Your error in doctrine is because you trying to replace the word "grace" with the word "saved."

Acts 15:11
But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

From the above verses it follows that, if "by grace are you saved", then when a person is "fallen from grace", then they also cannot be "saved" since "by grace are you saved".

BORN AGAIN

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epouraniois
unregistered

posted

come on folks, believers are the overcomers, but Salvation is of God. God isn't killing eternal all those who didn't believe, the Bible is repleat on this, He came to save that which was lost, He prayed for even those who had Him, slain. Not just the believers, but the ungodly, as it is written and written and written and written.

Galatians is speaking about falling from the grace principle. The grace of God is not going to fall, and the people fall from the grace principle cannot fall from grace itself, for God is love, He loved in this way, He so loved that He gave, and He gave His only begotten Son, the savior of the world.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

You are supposed to not be laying the old foundations again, the foundation is laid and it is Christ, so if anyone falls from the grace principle the Will of the FAther, the Work of the Son, and the Seal of the Spirit is able to keep you.

These are the things of the milk of the word by which to grow by, but there comes a time when these things must declare the believers faith. The believer with little faith is a babe and must have needs to go over again, when they ought to be teachers. I have many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear it, for you are babes, not able to take strong meat.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Heb 5:10 Called of God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.
Heb 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskillfull in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of ETERNAL JUDGMENT.

1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The Salation of God is assured, but you can loose your reward. There comes a time, when even now, all of us, must leave the first principles behind, and continue on in growth not being swayed by every wind of doctrine, growing up into the full grown man of the prison epistles.

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HisGrace
unregistered

posted

quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
Why do you choose to ignore scripture, and undermine God's Grace?

The same thoughts are going through my head about your replies. [Big Grin]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

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trafield
Advanced Member
Member # 5358

posted

quote:
Hebrews 10:5-14 is a message for all mankind, sinner or saint, and tells us what is available through Jesus' saving power, but we have to choose to follow that route.

This answer seemed like a smokescreen and did not answer my questions.
Regardless, we agree that we have to choose that route (though God first chooses us!)...yet this does not mean we can decide to unchoose that route. The scripture shows that we are forever made Holy.
Why do you choose to ignore scripture, and undermine God's Grace?

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HisGrace
unregistered

posted

Hebrews 10:5-14 is a message for all mankind, sinner or saint, and tells us what is available through Jesus' saving power, but we have to choose to follow that route.

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trafield
Advanced Member
Member # 5358

posted

quote:
Gal.5:1So Christ has really set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don't get tied up again in slavery to the law.

Amen, amen and amen, but why are you creating a smokescreen by quoting Gal. 5:1? We are not talking about that scripture.

Somkescreen? That is called looking at scripture in its context.
And yes, Paul said he would rather the Galatians not get tied up in this false doctrine again. I would say the thing to you. He is not saing they are not saved, but under a yoke of slavery because they do not understand the grace of God and, because they already believed, they cannot further their salvation from the act of circumcision. You are also under this yoke of slavery since you seem to think we can earn our salvation by working to make sure we do not lose our salvation.

I will not say "Oh-oh", BA, but "Praise God!"...for this says we have been made Holy once and for forever...

Hebrews 10:5-14
5Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
"Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7Then I said, 'Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, O God.' " 8First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

BA and HG, how long is forever?
How could one possibly choose to disbelieve a Spirit that is making him Holy?

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HisGrace
unregistered

posted

Gal 5: 1 Revisited. Trafield, since you quoted this scripture to show that we are totally free from sin evermore, lets just look at what it really says.

I used the NLT version -

Gal.5:1 So Christ has really set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don't get tied up AGAIN in slavery to the law.

KJV Gal, 5: 1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled AGAIN with the yoke of bondage.

~Both versions distinctly say not to go back to your old ways.

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HisGrace
unregistered

posted

quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
From BA - Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace.
Oh, oh, "fallen from grace".

quote:
BA,The very chapter you reference is not about losing one's salvation, but standing firm (5:1) in who we are as Christians [b]by faith.

Gal.5:1So Christ has really set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don't get tied up again in slavery to the law.

Amen, amen and amen, but why are you creating a smokescreen by quoting Gal. 5:1? We are not talking about that scripture.

quote:
Your error in doctrine is because you trying to replace the word "grace" with the word "saved." This cannot always be done.

You are using the word saved, not BORN AGAIN?? The Bible says 'grace' no matter how you try to twist it.

Many of the scriptures use the word 'mercy' when speaking about love for the sinners, and 'grace' when speaking about believers. They can be used in either/or context but Gal. 5:1 distinctly says 'fallen from grace'. We cannot fall from his mercy - it is granted to everyone, sinner and believer alike.

Scriptures showing mercy to sinners -

Luke 18:13 But the tax collector stood at a distance and dared not even lift his eyes to heaven as he prayed. Instead, he beat his chest in sorrow, saying, `O God, be merciful to me, for I am a sinner.'

Romans 11:30-32 Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the Jews refused his mercy, God was merciful to you instead.

And now, in the same way, the Jews are the rebels, and God's mercy has come to you. But someday they, too, will share in God's mercy. For God has imprisoned all people in their own disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.

And grace to believers -

Luke 2:40 There the child (Jesus)grew up healthy and strong. He was filled with wisdom beyond his years, and God placed his special favor upon him.

Acts 4: 33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ

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trafield
Advanced Member
Member # 5358

posted

quote:
Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace.

Oh, oh, "fallen from grace".

BA,

The very chapter you reference is not about losing one's salvation, but standing firm (5:1) in who we are as Christians by faith.

Your error in doctrine is because you trying to replace the word "grace" with the word "saved." This cannot always be done. It is Grace that saves us, but Grace also extends to the unbeliever every day he is allowed to take a breath and live his life of unbelief. For Christians, "grace" can mean saving grace, but it can also mean the unwarranted blessings in our lives by God.

For the Galatian Christians, Paul was trying to express in Chapter 5 that we have freedom in Christ, and do not have to justify ourselves by outward acts of the flesh like circumcision to be saved. Those that believed this, like Christians today who feel we must somehow do something more than what Christ has already done for us on the cross, are still saved by their belief in Jesus Christ (provided they truly accepted Him by faith), yet have fallen away from the true power of God's Grace and will therefore never come into the fullness of God's power in their lives.

This is why Paul in Galatians 5:8-10 says that this faulty belief of outward works does not come from the God who calls us, and that the one who is teaching this and throwing others into confusion will pay the penalty for it.

Let he who has ears to hear, let him hear.

-Tracy

Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005 | IP: Logged |

HisGrace
unregistered

posted

quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace.

Oh, oh, "fallen from grace".

Agreed -we are under mercy until we are born again, and then we are under grace when we become believers.

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BORN AGAIN
unregistered

posted

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace.

Oh, oh, "fallen from grace".

1 Corinthians 15:2
By which also you are saved, IF you keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain.

Oh, oh, "if you keep in memory".

God bless, [Cross]

BORN AGAIN

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epouraniois
unregistered

posted

metamelomai = to regret; to have after care or annoyances at the consequences of an act of sin rather than a deep regret at the cause from want of not knowing better. Hence it is never used in the Imperative. It occurs six time, and in each case (except Matt. 21:29, 32) never in the real Biblical sense of "repentance toward God". It is from meta = after, and melo = to be an object of care. See notes on 2Cor. 7:8 and 10. It is used of Judas Iscariot (Matt. 27:3); negatively of Paul's regret (2Cor. 7:8); and of God (Heb. 7:21).

The Noun, metameleia, is not used in the N.T.

This did lead Judas to throw down the silver at their feet, which moneys, we read in the verses immediately following, they then took that money and purchased the field, to the end, finding it's contribution in the all Scripture which must needs be fulfilled concerning Christ (Luk 24:44).

I can't judge anyone. I can only go by what the Scriptures reveal, and they state that none is lost, and only name one as being prejudged - Satan. More than 20 years after the ascention of Christ we find Paul writing that they could expect the son of perdition to show himself that he is God before the soon expected return of Jesus Christ.

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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15

posted

Were you around for the study that we did on Judas a couple of years ago? It was intense and very heated, very heated, but through it, God changed my opinions about what we know about Judas. It was a very long thread and the debate carried on for a long time, but it is worth the read if you ever have the time. During it, I read John till I thought I could have recited it from rote, but I remember an incredible blessing in that the love of Jesus for the 12 is so passionate in John's account. I had read John many times before, but this time, God really moved in my heart as I meditated on each line and just blessed me so to experience the love of Christ that is present in John.

I am ready. I know that when he comes if he comes in the next moment before I finsh typing this I am ready. We need to know this because we are ready BY what Christ as done and of nothing that is of us, except that we believe.

But to think that we could ever know what God could do in the last seconds of breath of life in another individual is not something I ever want to be in the possition to judge. I truly believe that God is able to take someone who at every step of the way appeared to be a lost soul and in the last nano second of life change everything and bring that person to repentance and faith. One thing I do know and that is that there is not one single soul in all of time that is foreordained that will be left behind; and there is not one that will stand before him in the judgement and be able to say..."I did not know."

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

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