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Topic: Can you give up your salvation?
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Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
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posted
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But, if it is as some of you are saying, that God didn't mean it as it was given, but means it to overrule the very plan and purpose of the ages, then no one will ever be saved, because no one can stop sinning.
That's not true! At least, you cannot stop sinning, but you can be delivered from sinning. Thereby you 'stop' sinning.
If you could stop, then you could take credit for it. But Jesus takes credit for it. Therefore, it is to our credit to take Him at His word. (Read very slowly!)
If we insist that we cannot stop sinning, then huge proportions of the New Testament would have to be scrapped. Moreover, if that is so, then Jesus died in vain because He died to save us from our sins. Listen! He did not die so that we could sin and forget it. There is a better reward.
If you say that you cannot stop sinning, then explain to me passages like:
1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
How do you purify yourself, by sinning, or by not?
![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
Here it says that abiding in Him equals sinning not! 1Jn 3:6 "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he [God] is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
This works when you apply it from the standpoint of one who is saved, to one who is unsaved; but i believe that the Apostle is actually rebuking Christian believers and telling them that they are, by their incomplete faith, allowing the works of the devil to be manifest, over those of our Lord. It is called abiding in the flesh (even though they are born of the spirit).
Now i skipped over a passage, but: 1Jn 3:10 "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." It is an error of the heart.
Now back to 1 John 3:8 "the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." If you still sin, then the works of the devil are not destroyed. (Read it again!) But there is a way to rationalize this as meaning - in the long run. That however is wrong, and it weakens the very truth. How then will people be drawn to God if we are so hopeless, and defeated, that we cannot live unto Him? What hope is there for the unregenerate if they have no one to look to?
Fact: You are delivered from sin. You might however fail to believe unto this, and fail by sinning. This does not mean that Jesus is not delivering you! This is the very reality of who Jesus is, eternally our Savior, our Deliverer!
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Carol Swenson
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Member # 6929
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posted
waynemlj
Brad asked that question over two years ago. I don't think he's around anymore.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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lonlesol
Advanced Member
Member # 4511
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posted
quote:
Quote by Brad:
Can you denounce God once you are saved? Blaphmesy(sp)?
Quote by waynemlj:
NO! You will not have to worry about ever denying Him . . . not ever! You will want to know more about how glorious a King of Kings and Lord of Lords He really is!
...I am sorry waynemlj, but I have to respecfully disagree on this...
I have seen and heard someone that I have known, trusted and loved for years, denying Him right in front of my Pastor as a witness in my own home two years ago...the man has said and made it perfectly clear that he hasn't reached this spiritual need and is not interested in reaching it any time soon...he does not want to know any more than what he already believes about God, which isn't much to begin with. He won't repent and he won't believe that the Bible is Truth inspired by God Himself, and so of course, he won't read the Bible...he doesn't believe in Paradise and he doesn't believe in hell...he believes that life ends when we die, that there isn't anything beyond death...he calls himself a Christian, because he asked Jesus in his heart when he was in third grade...he says that he has a personal relationship with Jesus and that Jesus understands him...oh and that it is wrong for people to share their own personal faith with others...hmmm...all of this makes no sense to me!...
If I was in that guy's shoes, I would worry big time but he doesn't even seem to care!...
The question should be...
We say that we have a new relationship with God...great!...but do we also have a new relationship with sin?...Now This Is the Test!...
Posts: 478 | From: Quebec | Registered: Mar 2005
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waynemlj
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by shadowmaker:
I believe once saved always saved but thats not my question.
Can you denounce God once you are saved? Blaphmesy(sp)?
Brad
Hi Brad,
I only have a few minutes, but I saw your Post and was intrigued by what you might have to say.
First of all, are you a Christian?
That means you believe that the Father made a covenant with the Son (before the world was created) to send him to be born as a man (to leave His God-Glory in heaven) to suffer the insults of sinful men, to die a horrible death on a cross, and be raised from the dead . . . and all for us. He, who had no sin, took your sins and mine and the sins of all those the Father gave Him to die for, upon Himself on that cross and was mercilessly punished in our place so that we could go free and never be punished, for God's Justice was satisfied by His Son's sacrifice on the cross.
If your answer is "Yes!" I believe all this revealed truth from the Bible, then free is free!
You can't lose what has been guaranteed by God Himself. John 10:28-29, "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."
Is that a good-enough guaranatee?
Is your desire for God, or is your desire against God? If your desire, as a saved soul, is for God, how can you imagine that you would deny Him?
The glory of the being of Jesus Christ is magnificent beyond our wildest imaginations. He is infinitely desirable and lovable. He is ALL to ALL who are His.
NO! You will not have to worry about ever denying Him . . . not ever! You will want to know more about how glorious a King of Kings and Lord of Lords He really is!
waynemlj
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
Rom.11
[17] And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
[19] Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
[23] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
[24] For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
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That is all.....
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Eden
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posted
Eph.4
[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
That's a good scripture for the view that we are indeed sealed unto the day of redemption once we have believed.
Can it be that God will prove to be a lot more generous than we people are?
John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch IN ME that bears no fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, he purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
WildB, what happens to a Christian who doesn't bear fruit, eventhough they are sealed unto redemption? "Every branch IN ME that bears no fruit He takes away".
John 15
6 IF a man abides not in Me, he is cast forth as a branch and is withered; and men gather them and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
What does this abiding in Him consist of? It must be reading and learning His Word, and listening to His Holy Spirit through which Jesus speaks to us wireless from heaven where Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father.
John 15
6 IF a man abides not in Me, he is cast forth as a branch and is withered; and men gather them and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
Have a great day, WildB,
with love, eden
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WildB
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posted
Once sealed always sealed till the day of redemption.
2Cor.1
[22] Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Eph.1
[13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph.4
[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Michael Harrison
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Member # 6801
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posted
Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Was Judas chosen? What happened to him?
Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Did these two have the Holy Ghost? What happened to them?
This is why it says that the fear of the Lord is the 'beginning' of wisdom.
Mat 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Don't take anything for granted!
1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1Co 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
I wanted to abstain from this conv, but what think ye?
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Paul is saying here that you must endure to the end.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
What is it to blot out, if not to blot out what was written?
But trust Him to keep what you have commited to Him against 'that day.' (2 Ti 1:12) And do not presume, but believe Him with fear.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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WildB
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posted
Bible, King James Version
1Cor.5
5] To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
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That is all.....
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yeshuaslavejeff
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Member # 4506
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posted
Matthew: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
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1Peter4:1,2 Yeshua suffered physical suffering:disciples have same mind/ willingness to share shame/physical suffering with Yeshua/His people.
Biblio:"willtherealhereticsplease standup?"byBercot(churchTruth)
Posts: 75 | From: tulsa | Registered: Mar 2005
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epouraniois
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posted
Another word on Hebrews 6, being when we read, we see that the chapter doesn't begin to end, rather, it continues for chapter after chapter, and salvation is never the subject. this is because Paul is speaking to believers. Paul isn't trying to convert anyone. These are all converted, they love the Lord, they need instruction.
they are being instructed in what Peter had said from the first, namely:
Act 2:16
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel
as chapter 6 of Hebrews submits, 'and the powers of the world to come' direct us to acknowledge that Joel does not speak about non Jews,
The Lord was prepaired, but Joel tells us only the remnant would, at this time, receive the call:
Joe 2:32
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Joe 3:1
For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem
One thing Paul was consistant with, is showing them, by Scripture, how the non believers were fulfilling the negetive sides of Israel's prophecy. Paul so loved his people, his desire was to preach and diliver the HS to all who would receive the truth, and were of his kinsmen by the flesh.
Yes, Paul well understood how and why those specific gentiles were used to try to provoke Israel to bear the fruits of reward. He never preached anywhere where there was no synagogue, but he would heal people when there was no synagogue.
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epouraniois
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carmela:
epouraniois you said:
quote:
all people everywhere, in all time, if they repent, but sin again, it is impossible for them to repent and moreover, cince the point of introducing this verse is to prove God does not save to the uttermost, then no one can be saved ever. That is the resoning I am being presented with.
This is where what we are saying is being taken out of context. We are not saying that when you sin you are not forgiven if you repent. We are saying that a person can lose their salvation if they stop repenting and harden their heart. It is possible to lose salvation in this case.
The thing is, that particular verse doesn't say anything about salvation. it is speaking about Jews who pretended, or was not persuaded even though they believers may have been led to believe they repented, that while the kingdom was being offered those tribes of Hebrews during the Acts, that they would not be given the power to repent again. Every Israelite during the Acts was to receive the opportunity for repentance, and all heard, but not many believed. They turned back to sacrificing animals for their salvation.
this does, brilliantly, follow hard on the discourse to for the need to continue on, v.1, to spiritual maturity, the subject continuing from ch.5.
there isn't a word about anything eternal at all in those verses, for they speak to their lifes at that time and making their decision toward national repentance.
they are a story of history. that is what happened then, but after that, the church of the one body is revealed, which IS addressed to us...
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epouraniois
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posted
I think -
'Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber' (Joh 10:1).
- goes with -
10:26, and referrences 'The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat' (Mat 23:2).
- pointing back to -
'And I gathered them together to the river that runneth to Ahava; and there abode we in tents three days: and I viewed the people, and the priests, and found there none of the sons of Levi' (Ezr 8:15).
so, therein lies the problem, it wasn't the Levites who were doing the preists' duties, also ref. Rev. 2:9, 3:9, 10.
'These sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but it was not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood'(Neh 7:64).
These were and are of the nephilim.
Christ came not but for the lost of Israel. Not for gentiles, not for the seed of contest within the seat of authority, the 'leaders' of the Jews.
'He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil' (1Jo 3:8).
'In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother' (1Jo 3:10).
'Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous' (1Jo 3:12).
'And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel' (Gen 3:15).
How many seeds did you count in that last verse?
See also, the parable of the tares, and the confidential answer the Lord Jesus gives the disciples in the house.
But those of Hebrews 6 are believers, and the tone is reward, not salvation, and they are not, therefore, to be listed with the Pharisees of Mat23, or Joh10.
Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak
Hebrews contains a great doctrine of the overcomer of Israel, the contrast is of those other Israelites who did 'draw back', Heb10, and who would then know nothing of the overcomers reward in New Jerusalem.
quote:
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
I also see this fully supported for the church in the new doctrine set forth in the very first chapter of the first of the epistles written to the one body, and supported throughout.
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Carmela
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posted
epouraniois you said:
quote:
all people everywhere, in all time, if they repent, but sin again, it is impossible for them to repent and moreover, cince the point of introducing this verse is to prove God does not save to the uttermost, then no one can be saved ever. That is the resoning I am being presented with.
This is where what we are saying is being taken out of context. We are not saying that when you sin you are not forgiven if you repent. We are saying that a person can lose their salvation if they stop repenting and harden their heart. It is possible to lose salvation in this case.
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www.pinecrest.org
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Miguel
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posted
How should we compare Hebrews 6:4-8,9-11 with Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
1. But ye believe not
2. because ye are not of My sheep
3. My sheep hear My voice
4. I know them
5. they follow Me
6. I give unto them eternal life (for Ever)
7. they shall never perish
8. neither shall any man (that means yourself also)
9. pluck them out (the roots are on the Foundation)
10. of My hand
11. My Father
12. which gave them Me
13. Is greater than all
14. and no man is able (that means yourself also)
15. To pluck them out
16. Of my Father's hand
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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epouraniois
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
According to you then, it is impossible to repent if you ever sin again.
That's not what I am saying at all. I thought I made my position crystal clear. As Carmela says, we are going in circles here, and I don't have anything further to add at this point.
don't be offended, please, it isn't the intention. rather, think. think, should we pull a verse out of all context by ingnoring the addressee, purpose and so forth to build another doctrine which, in this case, would mean, that all people everywhere, in all time, if they repent, but sin again, it is impossible for them to repent and moreover, cince the point of introducing this verse is to prove God does not save to the uttermost, then no one can be saved ever. That is the resoning I am being presented with.
I have found in my own studies, that I must be very careful about what I think and trying to prove it. In many cases the verse immediately before or after the verse used to prove a point will undermine the argument if it is not God's argument.
I just think we have to be careful about injecting our beliefs into the only letter we have which tell us what God's redempive plan of the ages is, and how is has been unfolding.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
According to you then, it is impossible to repent if you ever sin again.
That's not what I am saying at all. I thought I made my position crystal clear. As Carmela says, we are going in circles here, and I don't have anything further to add at this point.
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epouraniois
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posted
I can only speak for myself, so I will. For me, it doesn't matter what the verse is. If it is these, or some others, for me, it is simply wrong to pick out any verses and disregard who and why it is written in order to for me to make my case to support my beliefs.
I do not think that is what is meant by, precept upon precept, precept upon precpet, line upon line, line upon line, here a little there a little, comparing spiritual with spiritual.
So when I read those verses, I, personally, read the context, which began in ch5, and continues through ch10.
When I read about the letter being written to the Hebrews, and that they were receiving the powers of the age to come, I realize that they were receiving their resurrection powers which they will use in the millineum in that great time of teaching.
I realize and acknowledge that the Holy Spirit was sent as the Comforter to that nation at the end of Mark, reinforced and expanded in Luke24 and Acts1-10, and that this speaks to the purspose of God for every single Hebrew to have the opportunity to hear, and then make a choice.
I realize that this verse comes within the context of those Israelites who heard, that if once hearing, it is impossible to preach to them again. There were no second chances for them to receive the kingdom call which had gone out.
This verse specifically falls within the context of those under the law, believers, who might 'draw back' and take unto themselves the law of sacrificing animals for their sins, that in so doing, if they did anything like that, it would be calling Christs' blood common, and in so doing, they would lose their reward, and there would be no second chance for repentance.
It simply would not be given them again. Those Hebrews who would be able to 'draw back' to the law of sacrifice.
But hey, if you want to disregard the context, who it is written to, why it is written to them, that is between you all and the Lord.
For myself, I can acknowledge why it is written as well as why we are allowed to read God's other childrens letters without it being twisted into an 'another gospel'.
But, if it is as some of you are saying, that God didn't mean it as it was given, but means it to overrule the very plan and purpose of the ages, then no one will ever be saved, because no one can stop sinning.
According to you then, it is impossible to repent if you ever sin again. So you, in affect, are judging us and yourselves all to eternal damnation based upon the fact that in that time, the Hebrew tribes were given only one opportunity to return to the truth and receive the promised kingdom which was then being preached.
Not only so, but additionally, to say this is the teaching for the church when there was no church teaching at that time also denies the church which is now being built.
Again, during the Acts, no one ever taught the church is nigh at hand, the church His body, the inheritance of the church being heavenly, none of it. They didn't know anything about any church, they were preaching a kingdom and a king. They were teaching earthly promises from the OT.
Today, it is a different program by revelation called the mystery, it is a church body being built in the superheavenlies to teach the very aristocracy of heaven something of the manifold wisdom of God, and this being written as fact and truth, I ask us all, what kind of walk should we be having in our lives if we are to be teaching powers and principalities in heavenly places the manifold wisdom of God?
What does it teach them when we ignore who was written what, and claim it all applies to us, irrigardless of who God has said it is written to, and why?
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
sister HisGrace wrote quote:
"AND WHO THEN TURN AWAY FROM GOD.
I looked at Heb.6:4-6 and could not find that phrase in the KJV. Is that this bolded phrase in the KJV:
Hebrews 6
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
"If they shall fall away", is that your AND WHO THEN TURN AWAY FROM GOD?
Please advise. ![[roll on floor]](graemlins/6.gif)
God bless, BORN AGAIN
I think 'falling away' is saying the same thing as 'turn away.'
No, that's my "AND WHO THEN TURN AWAY FROM GOD" , that is the New Living Translation's way of saying it.
Thanks for reinforcing and making it more clear Carmela. I mentioned the parable of the sower on another thread. If the plants are not watered with the word and prayer, they die and even the roots wither up and die and there is nothing left but barren ground.
Anyway, what's so funny,BA. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Carmela
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posted
I'm sorry BA, I am not really sure what your question is. It could me because I just woke and I'm still in a lot of pain from my back, but could you clarify please?
Epouraniois I realize that the time that those words were spoken was different then today, but God had those words put in the bible as a warning to us. Everything in the bible is also connected to us today, which is why we live our lives by the Word of God today.
I'm not talking about those that repent. We all know that every time we repent, we are forgiven. We also know that we sometime sin and don't realize right away that we have sinned but God does show us those areas in our lives that we need to repent of and change when the time is right. God only shows us so much at a time so that we are not overwhelmed and even those sins don't keep us from heaven because God knows that we have repentant hearts.
However, there are those that choose to stay in sin and end up turning away from God completely. If God kicked Lucifer and 1/3 of his followers out of heaven, don't you think He would do the same to those that turn against against Him? I do believe that if they repent they will be forgiven, but most are happy in their sin and choose not to repent. That is why Jesus told the parable of the sower and seeds. We are to be aware of the condition of our hearts so we can grow or we will die. If EVERYONE gets into heaven, we wouldn't have needed the warnings that are in the bible.
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BORN AGAIN
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posted
sister HisGrace wrote quote:
"AND WHO THEN TURN AWAY FROM GOD.
I looked at Heb.6:4-6 and could not find that phrase in the KJV. Is that this bolded phrase in the KJV:
Hebrews 6
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
"If they shall fall away", is that your AND WHO THEN TURN AWAY FROM GOD?
Please advise.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible TO RESTORE TO REPENTANCE those who were once enlightened--those who have experienced the good things of heaven AND SHARED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come...
I have some questions. Perhaps someone can edify me with some Scriptural responces.
Does it matter who this letter was written to?
Does it matter what when it was written (in the outworking of God's plan)?
Does it matter that they were experiencing, "the power of the age to come"?
Does it matter that there is a given context for this verse?
Does this verse actually say that they cannot be brought back to repentance, or does it say that you and I are damned for eternity with no hope of salvation, saying nothing of reward, if we repented yesterday, but sinned today or tomorrow and the next day, and every day for the rest of our lives?
Is is safe to ignore all that is written by all the apostles, or what Christ the Lord Jesus spoke when He addressed the subject of the thread?
You are leaving out the most important part epour.
"AND WHO THEN TURN AWAY FROM GOD. It is impossible to bring such people to repentance again because they are nailing the Son of God to the cross again by rejecting him, holding him up to public shame."
This is not talking to someone who has taken three steps forward and two back in their faith walk. This person has completely turned their back on God. Their hearts have become so hardened that they are incapable of asking for forgiveness.
Saying that they are nailing Jesus to the cross again is a pretty serious accusation, and that person would have to pay the consequences.
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epouraniois
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Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible TO RESTORE TO REPENTANCE those who were once enlightened--those who have experienced the good things of heaven AND SHARED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come...
I have some questions. Perhaps someone can edify me with some Scriptural responces.
Does it matter who this letter was written to?
Does it matter what when it was written (in the outworking of God's plan)?
Does it matter that they were experiencing, "the power of the age to come"?
Does it matter that there is a given context for this verse?
Does this verse actually say that they cannot be brought back to repentance, or does it say that you and I are damned for eternity with no hope of salvation, saying nothing of reward, if we repented yesterday, but sinned today or tomorrow and the next day, and every day for the rest of our lives?
Is is safe to ignore all that is written by all the apostles, or what Christ the Lord Jesus spoke when He addressed the subject of the thread?
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Carmela
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Yes and thank you Hisgrace.
We all sin, I realize that. We all fall short and Jesus' blood is the atonement that pays for those sins when we repent. However, as you see in the above verse, it is possible to lose ones salvation if they turn against the Lord.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one though since we just seem to keep going in circles with each other.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Carmela:
I agree with you completely. For many Christians this is the case, but I don't believe that teaching once saved always saved always apply to everyone. After all, what about those Christians that fall into sin knowing they are sinning and then stay in that sin and don't repent? They often harden their hearts to the point of no return. The bible talks about that somewhere although I'm not sure where right now and I hurt my back this morning so I can't sit here too long. An unrepentant heart can become hard, so are they still saved forever also?
Is this the scripture Carmela ? -
Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible TO RESTORE TO REPENTANCE those who were once enlightened--those who have experienced the good things of heaven AND SHARED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come--
and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people to repentance again because they are nailing the Son of God to the cross again by rejecting him, holding him up to public shame.
~ It is obvious that such a person was once a believer. This would be a totally unrepentant heart, which would be incapable of asking for forgiveness. We can always be forgiven, but we can lose our desire to confess through straying too far to care.
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epouraniois
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As far as people who 'harden their heart to a point of no return', I, personally, cannot worry about things I have no knowledge of. I cannot read minds. I cannot tell how Satan is attacking anyone, for it is written, if the gospel be hid, it is hid from them by the god of this world, which brings our remembrance to exaclty who the real enemy is, and it is not believers or non believers, it is the god of this world, of which Job is an excellent reminder of that as well.
And, sure, God would prefer that we could somehow come to an acceptance and acknowledgment that the very purpose of God is to save sinners. Period.
POint of no return? What point of no return? If someone cannot receive even partial truth, that only makes them an unbelieving sinner, but still a sinner, and, there is always the resurrection, isn't there? Isn't that what we read? Israel shall teach the nations? Isnt' that their covenant fulfillment?
That every tongue will confess? And that these are they who will be raised unto shame?
And where is the sting of death? Well, the sting isn't there for those who have the peace of Christ in their hearts. But God killing His children forever because they sin would mean that none would be saved at all.
Peter would not be saved. Paul would not be saved. No one would be saved.
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1Ti 4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.
Esp. the believers, for they can be worked with before resurrection, right? Now these verses are either true or not. If they are not true, then what reason is there to even study, because we will sin. We cannot stop sinning. We are born sinners.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Is this true or not?
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Carmela
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Your welcome.
Epouraniois, sorry for the delay in my reply.
You asked me this: quote:
Thinking on what you said, don't you think we are supposed to know when we sin? As apposed to not being aware of it? And that it is by the power of the Lord by which we lessen the hold that sin has had in our lives as we come closer to being able to acknowledge all that is written? And that He came to save sinners? If we didn't need saving, He wouldn't have needed to impliment His foreknowledge for the need to have such a redemptive plan.
This was the reply to my pm to you.
I agree with you completely. For many Christians this is the case, but I don't believe that teaching once saved always saved always apply to everyone. After all, what about those Christians that fall into sin knowing they are sinning and then stay in that sin and don't repent? They often harden their hearts to the point of no return. The bible talks about that somewhere although I'm not sure where right now and I hurt my back this morning so I can't sit here too long. An unrepentant heart can become hard, so are they still saved forever also?
You also said: quote:
you and I will never stop sinning, because we are sinners. Whoever says they are without sin are liars. Isn't that what is written? He didn't resurrect because He has conquered you and I, He has conquored sin, that we might have life and have it more abundantly in resurrection. Satan is the great enemy. We are counted and numbered amoung the adoption. The only difference between a Christian and a non Christian, is that Christians know their Savlation is sure. Even those who do not know, will be taught in the resurrection. That is the program, for Israel to take up her role as teachers, rieging with Christ and ruling the nations. That merely means seating them down and instructing the nations, letting them sit at the Lord's table. Every tongue will confess. It is written. Demons, I don't know, that isn't part of this discussion, and should not be confused with what God is doing with man(kind) in this portion of the redemptive outworking.
I completely agree.
quote:
You don't believe that one verse that agrees with someones beliefs should be used to build a doctrine against all the other verses do you?
I don't use that verse with this discussion. I do believe however that a person can and sometimes does harden their heart to a point of no return. I also believe God removes His spirit from people at this time. Christians know when they are sinning and almost always know when they are being tempted. However, as I said in pm to you, I think it's in Romans where it says that when someone willingly chooses to walk in sin, it leads to death because they know what they are doing. It isn't like they are sinning without realizing what they are doing. It's deliberate. We all sin, but we also are told to repent when we do. Some leave Christianity and don't repent or return to God. This is why I don't believe you can't lose your salvation.
You and I have a heart that longs to please God and seek His will to be done in our lives. Yes, we all sin, but if someone doesn't turn from that sin and they keep walking in the wrong direction, they walk farther and farther from God until they don't desire His will any more. The farther they walk, the more independent in stead of dependent on God they become.
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Pleasemaranatha
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Thanks Carmela,
I will trust He will hold her hand and have HIS will done in her life.
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Joyce
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Carmela
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Joyce, although most of me believes in once saved always saved...provided someone is truly saved, there is a part of me that doesn't agree. I do believe that people can turn from God, just like the Israelites did. God turned His back on them which is why they went into captivity, but God also kept His promise to their children that He had made to them.
You can't really worry about that person because as you said, she is in God's hands. When my faith was weak, I use to pray that the Lord would hold my hand and when my grasp starts to slip, He would hold my hand tightly and not let me go. Maybe you can pray that for your friend.
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epouraniois
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Personally, I think it a rare thing to find any of the fruit of our labors being manifested in another person if at all. We may be able to broadcast that seed, but God gives the increase:
1Co 3:6
I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
1Co 3:7
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
1Th 3:12
And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you
Dan 4:35
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Gal 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such a one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
Gal 6:2
Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
Gal 6:3
For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
Gal 6:4
But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
Gal 6:5
For every man shall bear his own burden.
2Co 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.
Rom 3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Act 15:11
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
2Ti 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
2Ti 1:10
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel
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epouraniois
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quote:
Carmela
Epouraniois, that isn't what I'm saying. When someone makes the decision to change and live for Christ, then they are saved. But only God knows if they have really made that decision or not. However, the bible says something about if Jesus is in us, satan can't enter right? Well, satan entered Judas Iscariot and God took away his spirit from Saul so I don't believe in once saved always saved. And many that appear saved aren't.
How do you know they aren't saved? Do you have some verses for that? I need the verses, I need to study the anceint writings and see for myself. And the way I am reading this, it seems like salvation is up to the sinner to save themselves. How can a sinner save themselves? I need to see those verses please. Actually, the question can be raised as to whether or not a person even has it with their own personal power to come to Christ without being called out of the world to do so, as can be seen by such passages as Mat 16:17, Luk 10:22, Joh 6:44.
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Pleasemaranatha
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Thanks everyone who answered about the Book of Life question. So many opinions !!!!!
I've just seen so many conversions of people saved, backslidden, and then surrendering all to Jesus at the end of their lives. Like all of you having a heart for the lost makes me seek opinions.
Yes, I read the word of God everyday. Yes, I pray and sing to God everyday. He is real and always in my life.
It is just that lately I have been praying for a particular person who says she is saved but we see some evil spirits in her. She is like a puzzle that has a couple of wrong pieces MADE to fit from a different puzzle. She hasn't admitted to anything and says she is saved but whom am I to judge? I just am undecided how to help her except to lift her up in prayer. My flesh wants to think she is ok but some of us have seen she is not by what she doesn't say out loud and the goosebumps on our skin.
I know God wants her delivered and He knows the correct time for it to be done. He even had her move far away from us last year after we began going to the same church. Only God knows if he moved her away for me or for some other purpose.
God says for me not to anxious or worry so I won't. She is in HIS hands. He knows the correct time, way, words, and instrument to have His will done in her life.
Thanks again,
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My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning. Psalms 130 verse 6
Joyce
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Carmela
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Pleasemaranatha, some believe our name is put in the book of life before we are even born, or at least I believe I saw someone post that here. I believe it's put there when we ask Jesus to be the Lord of our life and we actually change our life and live it for Christ.
A lot of people say the prayer, and never walk the walk but they believe they are saved. They are the ones that I think of when I say that not everyone is saved forever. They may walk the walk for a while, but they often totally turn against God later. I don't believe in once saved always saved because of this.
quote:
So you are going to tell them that God can;t really save them, that when God saves someone He doesn't really do it? That is like telling someone that can't walk that you brought them almost all the way, all they have to do is stand up and take one good step. Then they get riches untold. Even supposing they do it, you are having God say you can never fall or you lose your free gift. It's bogus. That is just unconscioably mean, messed up scare tactics. I suggest you begin with John 3:16.
Epouraniois, that isn't what I'm saying. When someone makes the decision to change and live for Christ, then they are saved. But only God knows if they have really made that decision or not. However, the bible says something about if Jesus is in us, satan can't enter right? Well, satan entered Judas Iscariot and God took away his spirit from Saul so I don't believe in once saved always saved. And many that appear saved aren't.
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Carmela
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No Miguel you made a general statement: quote:
This yet is one of the topic that bring anger and hate to many, for the scriptures indicates that we are justify before God by the Lord Jesus Christ and this wonderful act of redemption was not in Calvary as you and I read but yet yes it was at the physical location of Golgotha.
I was just saying I'm not one of those people allow topics to cause me to hate or get upset.
LOL Trafield, I will explain what I was saying. You are right though, sometimes me thinks me thinker is broken. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) I see how I didn't make that clear. See, I have seen people that think they are saved but really aren't. I have seen people get taught, once saved always saved, and then they think that applies to them. So, they end up allowing sin into their lives and they fall. However, even when fallen they believe they have eternal salvation. Unfortunately, they are now believing falsely and more lost than they were because they believe a lie. I do believe God will remove His spirit from people, as He did with Saul. But when someone is believing once saved always saved, (and I'm talking mostly of baby Christians, which qualifies most of the church today unfortunately), they end up led astray sometimes. LOL not sure I said it any clearer this time. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Trafield you said: quote:
Some new Christians may be so dramatically converted like Paul that they will not have much of a problem leaving their old lifestyle. For others it may take more time.
This is true but if you look at most of the church, few fall into this category. This is why I don't believe in teaching once saved always saved. Some people appeared saved, learn this doctrine and fall yet still believe they are saved.
quote:
Sin has absolutely nothing to do with loosing your salvation. There is no harm to teaching this to new Christians as long as they understand, as it says in Romans, that this does not mean we can go on sinning...for there is always a price to pay for sin. The problem is you do not seem to have the faith in the Spirit to convict us about sin and to lead us to eventual sanctification.
I agree with the first part of this. However, some people appear saved and they are not. So it appears as if they lost their salvation. Some, like the seed in the thorns, starts to grow and gets choked and die. So, they may have been saved for a while, but they must have lost their salvation since they died in the end. Does this make sense?
I don't believe in once saved always saved because I don't believe all conversions end up being permanent. I have seen many fall away and I believe God departs from people that leave Him although I also believe that He will first do everything He can to draw a person back to Him.
God grieves when we turn our back on Him, but when we turn away from Him to the point of no return, I believe He will take his spirit from us.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
I do not understand the umbilical cord reference.
When one makes analogies, it helps to make the understanding more clear.
Umbilical cord - the long tube-like structure which connects a baby which has not yet been born to its mother's placenta (= the organ which provides it with food and oxygen):
I also used the word lifeline. Likening the Holy Spirt to the umbilical cord, or lifeline, it can become detached from the Holy Spirit if we turn our back on God.
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epouraniois
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
But I do not understand the reference to marriage.
I drew up the two parallels to show that God gives us choices. No matter how serious and binding a vow is, even though it a lifelong commitment made in God's eyes, man has the choice to turn his back on it and break that vow. The imblical cord/lifeline has been detached from the Holy Spirit in the case of backsliding.
However, they can always be forgiven and brought back into the fold.
Thank you for the clarification. Yes, people often, sadly, do fall away from the grace principle, but to deny that the grace has already been achieved in no wise nullifies the finished work on the cross, in which many will find themselves a resurrection unto shame and have to be reinstructed in the first things again.
I do not understand the umbilical cord reference. Do you have some Scriptures that state what you are wanting me to receive? Perhaps I could better see it if presented within the God given context.
Ez. 40? or 44? speaks of going forth to encourage a loved one and the need for purifying oneself from being amoung the dead. This speaks to the difference in Revelation concerning their first resurrection unto life and reigning with Christ, and being considered still dead as to being in Christ. Resurrected unto shame = considered still dead.
1Co 3:14
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Salvation and Reward are not the same thing, (according to Scripture).
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
But I do not understand the reference to marriage.
I drew up the two parallels to show that God gives us choices. No matter how serious and binding a vow is, even though it a lifelong commitment made in God's eyes, man has the choice to turn his back on it and break that vow. The umbilical cord/lifeline has been detached from the Holy Spirit in the case of backsliding.
However, they can always be forgiven and brought back into the fold.
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epouraniois
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
Epour. you can quote scripture until you are blue in the face, but it is not worth diddly- squat if it is rejected.
When two people get married they make a vow, "Until death do us part." That is a pretty serious vow, but in God's eyes that is exactly what it means. However, the vows include the phrase, "Let no MAN put asunder." The vow is only as powerful as mankind chooses.
When the two marry they become as one person, so if one spouse chooses to be unfaithful, that person becomes as one with someone else. The marriage has been put asunder by man, not God.
When we choose Christ in God's eyes it is 'until death do us part.' When we choose to divorce Jesus and become as one with the devil, 'we have put our marriage asunder.' Sin is sin, and the wages of sin is death.
But isn't that the point of quoting these particular Scriptures, that you lose your reward by following after vain deceit and puffed up phylosophy in leaning to ones own understanding, rather than standing fast on every word of God?
But I do not understand the reference to marriage.
The bride is Israel. The church is His body.
Israel is referred to as a she, a wife, a bride. The church is never so rendered, rather is called to be a full grown aner. Aner is the word for husband.
Scripture, or the traditions of man. That is your choice. It is between you and God. I made my choice. I mean, if you don't beleive and don't care enough to receive God's understanding in His presentation of all that we can know about Him, then why open the Book at all. ?
When we chose Christ? No, He chose, not us. We can yield to Biblical truth, or not. Being that it is Christ Jesus the Great God and our Saviour who has come in the volume of the Book, further consideration may be desirable before denying what is given for our learning.?
If the Scriptures of God does not edify, is not found profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness for you, then perhaps others may injoy the exactitudeness of the perfection of the choosing of the seven times purified and Holy Words Of God.
And I probably will be quoting the Scriptures of Truth till I am blue in the face, till I die. What will you be doing?
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HisGrace
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Epour. you can quote scripture until you are blue in the face, but it is not worth diddly- squat if it is rejected.
When two people get married they make a vow, "Until death do us part." That is a pretty serious vow, but in God's eyes that is exactly what it means. However, the vows include the phrase, "Let no MAN put asunder." The vow is only as powerful as mankind chooses.
When the two marry they become as one person, so if one spouse chooses to be unfaithful, that person becomes as one with someone else. The marriage has been put asunder by man, not God.
When we choose Christ in God's eyes it is 'until death do us part.' When we choose to divorce Jesus and become as one with the devil, 'we have put our marriage asunder.' Sin is sin, and the wages of sin is death.
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epouraniois
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Eph 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”.
There must be harmony in the Greek; you can’t have a feminine “faith” and a neuter “gift” and expect that the subject moves from faith to the gift.
While it is true, the Bible does teach that even our faith is by the gift and grace of God, this is not, however, what this particular verse is stating, for no Greek writer would ever say that a feminine faith is a neuter gift.
Therefore, it cannot be saying faith is the gift of God, it must be saying something else.
It must be noted too, that this verse does not stand alone, for it is being built up, and well founded upon that which had been presented only a few verses back.
So, what is it saying? It is saying then, that thru grace by faith, salvation is a gift that brings the quickening power of Christ in the believers life now, reflecting back to v. 5, & 1.
The requirement to the receiving and enjoyment of this free gift in this life now, being raised by grace, hinges upon the believers capacity to trust the Lord in this matter, which is Faith.
Moreover, Salvation from sin is not the theme of Ephesians. Ephesians 1:7 and 2:1,5 exhaust the references to both ‘trespasses and sins’ in this epistle, whereas Romans speaks of ‘trespass’ (offense) nine times, and ‘sin’, over forty times.
The final note here, is the remarkable statement that this is the single occurrence of an oblation made by God for man. All other oblations are from man to his God.
Of course, there are problems in regards to whom is actually a member of the one body, as it appears that the membership in this calling were chosen before age-times. Perhaps only those who can discern and receive the truth of the dispensation of the mystery, given to Paul to preach, are chosen into this body. I do not know the answer to this problem. There are many things I do not know.
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epouraniois
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"Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended, but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth to those things which are before, I press toward the mark, for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 3:13,14).
Forgetting . . . I press". What things did the Apostle wish to "forget"? What things if remembered would hinder his running and spoil his chances for the Prize? It cannot refer to the fact that Paul was once a Pharisee and an enemy of the Gospel, for this is remembered with deep appreciation of grace in 1 Timothy 1: 11-16, and urged upon the remembrance of Timothy himself in 2 Timothy 1:3; 3:10-14. In Hebrews twelve, in connexion with "running the race that is set before us" the Apostle urged his readers to "lay aside every weight", which turns us back to Hebrews six where he says, "leaving the word of the beginning of Christ, let us go on unto perfection" . The Hebrews were hindering their ability to run the race that was set before them, and to go on unto perfection, by clinging to the doctrines and practices of a dispensation that had passed.
So, even although the Philippians were called to salvation and the preaching recorded in Acts sixteen, and referred to in Philippians 4:15, they must nevertheless beware of bringing over from the Pentecostal dispensation which had now fallen into abeyance, doctrines and practices which were once right and proper, but now obsolete and hindrances. They must "forget the things which are behind". For the Apostle himself, the things that were "behind" would embrace all that he had counted loss for Christ's sake, and for each one of us, there will be a similar and personal assessment that we alone can make. From the prison where the Apostle was held on the Palatine Hill at Rome (Phil. 1:13) he would hear the shouting and the cheering of the multitudes as they encouraged their favourite charioteers in the circus maximus. Paul, though a prisoner, was also a charioteer, he too had a "mark", he too "stretched himself forward" as the racer did in the tests.
Clement of Rome, who is probably the same person as is mentioned in Philippians 4:3, associates the "prize" brabeion, with Paul's Apostolic career. "St. Paul (he says) gained the brabeion of endurance, having worn chains seven times for Christ (probably an allusion to the seven rounds of the racecourse before the final run up of the mark)." From this Greek word for "prize" brabeion, some think the English "bravo" is ultimately derived. Coming to the prize itself.
Paul does not say "the prize of the high calling of God", what he says is "the prize of the high calling of God which is IN CHRIST JESUS". The out-resurrection segregates the believer who has obtained the prize, but is not itself the prize for which the Apostle was running. When at the last he could say "finished", he then speaks not in generic terms of a "prize" but in specific terms "a crown", which he also associates with "reigning together" in the second chapter of the same epistle (2 Tim. two and four).
"THE MARK" set before those who would be "perfect" (phil. 3:17-21).
Most take the word "perfect" here to mean "mature" as contrasted with "babes" and immature, and in other contexts this is quite true (Heb. 5:14). If, however, we look back to Philippians 3:12, where the Apostle says of himself that he was not already "perfect" or "mature" , we shall have a difficulty in accepting the usual rendering of verse 15. If Paul was not then "perfect" who among the Philippians or his readers down the ages could hope to be?
A thing cannot both -be, and not be, at one and the same time. You can sense the difficulty here; "the translation in the A.V. of teteleiomai (verse 12) and teleioi by the same word, makes Paul seem to contradict himself" and their wayout of the difficulty is to translate verse 15 by "ripe in understanding". This, however, only conceals the difficulty from the English reader. Macknight translates Philippians 3:15, "As many, therefore, as WISH TO BE perfect". Osoi oun teleioi contains no verb. The "be" is supplied in the A.V. to make sense.
If we must supply a verb, why not keep the unity of the Apostle's argument? Why make him contradict himself within the space of three verses? Why accuse him of using a term in two different meanings without the slightest warning to the reader? "As many as would be", or who "wish to be perfect", makes all clear and straightforward. All who would emulate the Apostle's de sire and eagerness, must emulate his "mind"; they must be "thus minded" and we have only to go back to the opening of the great argument in chapter two, to realize that the Apostle is turning back to the "mind that was in Christ Jesus". The Received Text reads at verse 16:
"Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing".
The use in the A.V. of the word "attain" in Philippians 3:11,12 and 16 to represent three different Greek words, has robbed the English reader of the means to appreciate the transition of thought in the Apostle's argument.
The Great Example of chapter two, appeared at all points to be giving away advantages. The Lord Jesus Christs' humble follower Paul, pursued the prize while at the same time counting all things loss. Whoever won a race, and "esteemed the affairs of others, of far more importance than his own" (Phil. 2:3)?
In this competition there is no thought of elbowing the weak brother out of the way, but rather of losing place and pace while we pause to help him on to his feet. The Apostle exhorted the runner to "lay aside every weight" yet at the same time revealed that the law of Christ called upon every entrant "to bear one another's burdens". This somewhat paradoxical state could obtain only in the realm of grace.
The "rule" kanon refers to "the white line by which the course in the stadium was marked out, including the whole space between the starting-place and the goal, and that those who ran out of that space did not contend lawfully. The runners, in endeavouring to pass one another, were in danger of going out of that space" (Hammon quoting Julius Pollux, A.D. 180-238). Aquila uses the word kanon in his Greek version of Job 38:5. The Apostle taught the Ephesians that the spirit of wisdom and revelation was given "in the acknowledgment" of Christ, so here in Philippians the Apostle says, "I follow along the mark" kata skopon dioko, "and as many as would be perfect" and obtain the prize, they too will "think this". There are other things, such as the observance of one day above another, or the eating or not eating of certain foods, in which there will be considerable differences of opinion, but provided that all press on in the right spirit, God will reveal these things to such. We are to be "strivers together" for the faith, but not strivers with one another (Phil, 1:27, 2:3).
The Apostle has, by his exhortation, thrown the believer back upon the example both of the Lord and of himself, he now proceeds to enforce the need for observing this example both positively, "Be followers together of me" and negatively, "and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample" (Phil. 3:17).
Five things are enumerated by the Apostle when speaking of those whose example was to be avoided.
1. They were enemies of the cross of Christ (see Heb. 6:6, 10:29).
2. Their end was destruction (or "Perdition" as Heb. 10:39).
3. Their god was their belly (as Esau, Heb. 12:16).
4. Their glory was in their shame.
5. They minded earthly things.
Philippians 3:15-19 is a section complete in itself, and the word phroneo "mind" occurs in it as follows:
A 3:15 As many as would be perfect (one thing, to hen verse 13) be thus minded
B 3:15 Otherwise (heteros) minded
A 3:16 Whereto... outstripped others. . . mind the same thing (to auto)
B 3:19 Who mind earthly things (ta epigeia).
It will be seen that those who mind earthly things are in correspondence with those who think differently from the Apostle in his single-eyed effort to attain the prize. "Earthly things" therefore need not mean things positively sinful, but things that come in between the runner and his goal; "every weight" as Hebrews twelve suggests. "Earthly things" are in the original ta epigeia (Phil. 3:19). "Things on the earth" are ta epi tes ges (Col. 3:2). "Earthly things" are spoken of in Joh. 3:12, James 3:15, 1 Corinthians 15:40, 2 Corinthians 5:1 and in Philippians 2:10 and 3:19. In each case, "earthly things" are set over against "heavenly", "from above" and "celestial". Those who may have been persuaded that the "earth" not "heaven" is the sphere of blessing for all !he redeemed should heed this warning. "Our citizenship is (huparchei) in heaven".
Those, therefore, who mind earthly things, are those who do not act in accordance with their heavenly citizenship (Phil. 3:20) and who se example and teaching will "beguile" them of their reward. This must be shunned by all who seek the prize of the high calling.
The example of Abraham, as set out in Hebrews 11:8-16, who desired a better country, "that is, an heavenly", can be added to that of the Apostle here. If the last of the list of five things to avoid can describe those who are believers, let us return to the head of the list and ponder again the dreadful words, "the enemies of the cross of Christ". James declares that friendship with the world makes one "the enemy of God" (Jas 4:4), but will it be denied that such friendship is possible to a child of God? One may become an enemy in the eyes of another by telling him unpalatable truth (Gal. 4:16), and enmity can be 'exhibited and maintained by a middle wall of partition (Eph. 2:15). A believer can, therefore, by adopting some attitude make himself an enemy of the truth for which the cross of Christ stands.
To many, the cross of Christ is seen only in an evangelical light, the central testimony to unsaved sinners. To those who see no further than this aspect of the cross, those referred to in Philippians 3:18 cannot possibly be believers. To those who have examined the place which the cross occupies in Paul's testimony and have seen its essential message to the believer who is already saved, the warnings of these verses will present no problem.
the only reference to the cross in that epistle is found in Hebrews 12:2, in direct connexion with "running the race which is set before us". This is the last reference to the cross in the New Testament, the earliest references (Matt. 10:38, 16:24) which relate to the cross, speak also of discipleship and future reward. Paul uses the doctrine of the cross to counter the fleshly wisdom of the Corinthian believers (1 Cor. 1:17,18; 2:2), he teaches the Galatian believers that by the cross the world and its boasting are repudiated (Gal. 5:11; 6:12,14), and that the emancipation of the believer, together with the complete reconciliation of the One Body, are accomplished by the cross of Christ (Eph. 2:16, Col. 1:20; 2:14).
Those who are "otherwise minded" and whose associations with the world and the flesh run in opposition to the "one thing" that characterized the Apostle's testimony, would be, though believers, "enemies" of all that the cross of Christ stood for, and so become examples for the Philippians to shun.
Some excerpts:
The Prize
By C. Welch
The Chapel Of The Open Book
To conclude, it should be noted that worship was ordained for the Jews in the dispensation of promise, while the one body regards service to be the order of the day. This service is to be distinguished from that of serving man and the things of the flesh, and restricted to serving the Saviour of the body, Christ Jesus The Lord, into the knowledge of the fellowship of the secret, (Ephesians 3. 9-11).
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THE PRIZE ITSELF
The figure of a race, a conflict with a crown or prize at the end is used by the Apostle in more places than one. If this "prize" is something for which we have been apprehended by Christ, then if for no other reason, than to please Him, we should get to know what it is and how it may be obtained.
it is also right for every believer to believe what God has said regarding "the prize" that is attached to our "High Calling", as it is right that we should understand the High Calling itself.
When one has perceived the riches of grace that characterize the calling of the Mystery, there is a temptation which is very strong, and one in which you touched upon, to accept the grace and live in sin anyways, but this is to deny the possibility of "reward" in the Prison Epistles at all.
While sympathizing with this regard for grace, we must nevertheless resist it, for we have a higher regard for "truth" of which grace is a part, and truth demands that we shall allow a rightful place in the dispensation of the Mystery to the undiluted meaning of "crown", "prize" and "reward".
the epistle to the Colossians, an epistle which stresses the fact of the believer's "completeness" in Christ, and observe what it says concerning this aspect of revealed truth. First, in chapter two the Apostle gives a warning against that attitude of mind that "beguiles of the reward".
"Let no man beguile you of your reward". The word that demands attention here is katabrabeuo. Kata means "against", and brabeuo means to be a judge or umpire, and so to assign the prize in a public game. Brabeuo occurs in Colossians 3: 15 where the peace of God is said to "act the umpire (rule) in your hearts", a precious thought. Brabeion is a prize. It is found in 1 Corinthians 9:24 and Philippians 3:14, "the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus". We are, therefore, not without guidance as to the subject of this section. It has to do with the prize. Now Colossians, whilst running very parallel with Ephesians, has much in its central section that bears upon Philippians. Philippians is the epistle of the "prize" and the "perfecting", and if we look at Colossians one we shall find under the idea of being "presented" the two aspects of truth set forth by Ephesians and Philippians. We shall distinguish between that which can never be lost, and that which may be lost, and return to Colossians two with clearer views:
The first presentation.
"In the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight" (Col. 1:22).
The second presentation.
"Warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus" (Col. 1:28).
The first presentation rests solely upon the finished work of Christ; the second involves the idea which is found in the word "perfect", of pressing on to the end. In the first no effort of our own could ever present us "holy"; in the second we stand in need of "warning".
Satan does not waste his energies in attempting to deprive us of our acceptance in the Beloved. "Your life is hid with Christ in God". Scripture nowhere says: "Hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take away thy life" but it does say: "Hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown" (Rev. 3:11). Satan was permitted to touch everything belonging to Job except his life.
The same is true of all the redeemed. There is a prize to be won, a crown to be gained, but no man is crowned, except he strive lawfully. If, therefore, Satan can turn the saint away from the fulness of Christ, and get him occupied with other means and ways, be they ordinances, days, feasts, meats, drinks, false humility, neglect of the body, unscriptural mediators, or any other thing save "holding the Head", then the prize is lost, the saint dishonoured, and above all the Saviour robbed, for what is a crown to us, but an added crown to Him?
"Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God: and whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance; for ye serve the Lord Christ. But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons" (Col. 3:22-25).
"The reward of the inheritance". In this phrase is the key to the Apostle's object in writing the epistle. The Colossian believers, being members of the Body of Christ, were already potentially "seated together in heavenly places in Christ"; already "accepted in the Beloved"; already sure of their presentation, "holy and unblameable and unreproveable" in the sight of God. Already the Apostle had said, "giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light" (Col. 1:12).
Words cannot make clearer the assured position of the believer nor the completeness of this acceptance. Nevertheless, before the chapter is finished we have found Paul "warning" and "teaching" that he may "present every man perfect in Christ Jesus", and also at the close of the epistle we find Epaphras praying for the selfsame thing (Col. 4:12). As it is evident that neither Paul nor Epaphras have any doubt that what has already been written of the saints as to standing in Colossians 1 :12,13 and 22 remains unalterably true; it becomes necessary to distinguish between the common "inheritance of the saints in light", for which all believers have been made meet, and "the reward" attaching to that inheritance, which was associated with individual faithfulness. That is the "prize attached to the high calling" which, as in Philippians three, is associated with "perfecting" (Col. 1:28, 4:12).
If we "try the things that differ", we shall see that "hope" is on a basis of pure unalloyed grace, which excludes all possibility of either gain or loss, running or serving; and that the "prize" is on a basis of reward, given only to those who strive lawfully. Knowing these distinctions we shall be saved a multitude of vexations, and moreover not be found false witnesses of God, for without doubt, He teaches us that membership of the One Body and participation in its one hope is entirely outside the range of attainment on our part. And with equal certainty He assures us that the prize of the high calling, the reward of the inheritance, and the crown of righteousness, fall within the category of attainment. True, nothing but grace will avail, but it is grace used. The reason for the Apostle's assurance that our life is hid with Christ in God, is that we might know that life is not in question. He does not say in Colossians 2:18, let no man beguile you of your life, or membership, or position: these are never in question. But he does echo the words of another dispensation and say, "take heed, that no man take your crown".
The word translated "wrong" in Colossians 3:25 is translated "hurt" in Revelation, where it speaks of being "hurt of the second death". Reward or forfeiture belong to both contexts.
In 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 the Apostle enlarges upon this figure of the race and the crown, supplementing his own inspired figures by the "ensamples" provided by Israel in the wilderness (1 Cor. 10:1-13). Grace is emphasized in the epistles of Paul written before Acts twenty-eight as an examination of Galatians and Romans will demonstrate. No single chapter repudiates the flesh and its efforts more strongly than does 1 Corinthians, chapter one, yet the Apostle sees no incongruity in stressing in the same epistle with equal emphasis the running of a race, the fact that only one receives the prize, and the necessity for discipline and temperance on, the part of all who enter the lists, with the final warning, that he himself cou1d possibly become "disqualified" (adokimos 1 Cor. 9:27, not "castaway"), even as with many of Israel even though redeemed out of Egypt the Lord was not "well pleased" (endokeo 1 Cor. 10:5).
In the last epistle Paul wrote, he speaks not only of the association of "crown" and "running the race" in connexion with himself, but applies the same principles to "all that love His appearing" (2 Tim. 4:8); at the same time he distinguishes very clearly between the unalterable position of those who "died with" Christ, as compared with the condition attached to "reigning with him" (2 Tim. 2:11-13). Life with Christ is one thing, reigning with Him is another.
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"If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead".
The Received Text reads ten exanastasin ton nekron "the out-resurrection of or from the dead", the Critical Texts read ten exanastasin ten ek nekron "the out-resurrection, that which is out from dead ones".
When the Saviour challenged the faith of Martha concerning the resurrection of her brother Lazarus, she replied in the language of the common creed of the day, "I know that he shall rise again . . . at the last day" (John 11:24). The simplest statement concerning the resurrection is that given by the Apostle before Felix and the Sanhedrin, a belief which Israel and the believer could share "and have' hope towards God which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust" (Acts 24:15). Here in the words anastasin nekron we have the most elementary form in which the resurrection of the dead can be expressed, a form used by the Pharisees, and by Paul, by the sister of Lazarus and by the common people, for the Apocrypha, written long before Christ, contains the words anastasin eis zoen "a resurrection unto life".
read in Mark 9:10 of the disciples that they questioned one with another, "what the rising from the dead should mean?" Are we to understand that the very disciples who had been selected to witness the Transfiguration on the mountain, were not so mature in their faith as an unconverted Pharisee? Did Martha outstrip the Apostles in this article of faith? Once again, therefore, we must turn to the actual words as recorded in the original before attempting a conclusion. The words that troubled the disciples were those used by the Lord when He said, "till the Son of Man were risen from the dead," ek nekron anaste, "risen OUT FROM dead ones". It is the presence of this word ek that caused the questioning. It was something additional to the common creed. It was this resurrection ek nekron that declared Christ to be the Son of God with power (Rom. 1:4). The first to rise out from the dead was Christ, as Paul testifies in Acts 26:23.
"That Christ should suffer, and that He should be the first that should rise out from dead ones".
This next reference that is nearer to the form found in Philippians three, tes anastaseos tes ek nekron in Luke 20:35.
"But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection that which is out from dead ones".
The word "obtain" in Luke 20:35 is used by the Apostle in 2 Timothy 2:10, "that they may also obtain that salvation which is with eternal glory", where the context associates "suffering" with "reigning", and in Hebrews 11:35, "that they might obtain a better resurrection" which is an obvious parallel with the "out resurrection" of Philippians 3: 11. While Paul was sure of the "hope" of his cal1ing, he could not be sure of attaining unto the "prize" of this same calling, and associated with that prize is the special resurrection, the out-resurrection and the desire for conformity unto the death of Christ.
In the verse following, the Apostle makes it very clear that this uncertainty is legitimate, and one or two added words are employed in making this fact clear. "Not as though I had already attained", ("not that I have already obtained" RV.), "either were already perfect" ("or am already made perfect" RV.), "but I follow after" ("but I press on" RV.). "If that I may apprehend that for which also 1 am apprehended of Christ Jesus" ("if so be that I may apprehend that for which also I was apprehended by Christ Jesus") (Phil 3:12 R.V.). The A.V. repeating the word "attain" in Philippians 3:12 gives a continuity to the Apostle's argument, but as two very different words are employed katanto in verse 11, and lambano in verse 12, the RV. is preferable. The change from "attaining" to "obtaining" moreover, reveals a change in the Apostle's objective. He sought first to "attain" to the out-resurrection, and then subsequently to "obtain" the prize. This comes out clearly when we remember that lambano "obtain" occurs in 1 Corinthians 9:24,25, "one receiveth the prize", "they do it to obtain a corruptible crown".
It is evident from the Apostle's language, that one who "obtained" the prize, could be considered as "perfect". Here the Greek word teteleiomai "I have been perfected" awaits the triumphant teteleka "I have finished" of 2 Timothy 4:7, where once again we have the race course, the conflict, and the crown. The reader will recognize that in both of these Greek words, there is the common root tel which means that the "end" has been reached, the race run. Telos "end" (Phil. 3:19) gives us teleo "to reach an end, and finish" (2 Tim. 4:7); and so teleioo "to make perfect" (Phil. 3:12), and teleios "perfect" (Phil. 3:15). The Apostle said, "I follow after," and what he sought for was that he might "lay hold of" that for which he had been "laid hold of" by Christ. Meanwhile his "confidence" in Philippians one and his "diffidence" in Philippians three give us the two sides of truth that present a perfect whole.
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The Greek word translated "prize" is brabeion, and occurs in two passages.
1 Cor. 9:24
Run all, but one receiveth the prize.
Phil.3:14
I press toward the mark for the prize.
(According to a mark, I press toward the prize, literally.)
The word prize is derived from brabeus, the judge at a public game who assigns the prize. Brabeuo, to preside at the games, occurs in Colossians 3: 15 where it is translated "rule" and katabrabeuo also found in Colossians (2:18), means "to defraud or deprive of a prize, to so manage affairs that the umpire shall pronounce against the contestant". In Colossians the thought is not so much that of being cheated of the reward, but of failing to attain unto the required standard. The atmosphere of 1 Corinthians 9:24 and of Philippians 3:14 is that of the arena, and the race course.
Philippians 3: 10-14 reveals a series of steps toward the goal in view.
FIRST STEP "THE POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION"
When the Apostle cried, "that l may know Him and the power of His resurrection" it is this aspect of resurrection that he has before him. He knew the historic fact, he knew its fundamental character for all doctrine, he knew all preaching and all faith was vain without it, but he also realized that there was a personal and experimental side to the fact of resurrection that had a peculiar bearing upon the great theme of the Philippian epistle.
1. That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection.
2. The fellowship of His sufferings.
3. Being made conformable unto His death.
4. If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
It is evident that the prayer "that I may know Him" speaks of a knowledge that is deeper than either that which is historical or even doctrinal. A person may be said "to know" when a subject has simply come within the sphere of his perception, and where this aspect of knowledge is intended, the Greek word oida is used, a word that is derived from eido to see, or perceive by means of the senses. This knowledge, however, is not deep, it lies near the surf ace of things. To know as represented by the word ginosko implies insight, acquaintance and personal relationship. It is this word ginosko that the Apostle uses in Philippians 3:10. Relation with the object is readily seen in such passages as "Who knew no sin", "I had not known sin". The special use of the word "know" in Matthew 1 :25 and Luke 1 :34 shows how intimate this knowledge is considered to be. In Philippians 3: 10 the Apostle was not seeking fuller information about the Person or the History of Christ; he was not concerned about the number of prophecies that were fulfilled by His advent, he desired a closer, more intimate acquaintance, a personal relationship even though it involved suffering and shame; he desired a fellowship and a conformity.
This intimate, personal knowledge of Christ, if taken in its widest scope, is so vast, that like the love of Christ "it passeth knowledge". Here in Philippians 3: 10, the Apostle's desire is focussed upon one aspect of His great work, "the power of His resurrection". Even so, we must remember that he has given evidence in other epistles that he was acquainted with this mighty power. He speaks of this in Ephesians 1:19; 3:7,20 and 6:10, in relation to believing, ministry, answer to prayer, and Christian warfare, but here, in Philippians, he has something more in view.
The great Sacrifice which the Saviour came to offer, and which underlies the whole plan of salvation, was completely accomplished when He died "the just for the unjust". For this purpose He had been born and to make this offering "a body had been prepared Him". In this great act the believer can have no share. It was done "for" him.
"If by any means I might attain unto". No ambiguity attaches to the original here, the R.V. makes but one alteration, the exchange of "may" for "might". The simple way of "putting the condition" is attained by using the particle ei, as in Philippians 1:22. In the passage before us ei is combined with the adverb pos "how", and so means "if somehow". The word eipos occurs but four times in the N.T. and in every case the contingency is very real, the possibility of failure is stressed. The passages are:
* "If by any means they might attain to Phenice" (Acts 27:12).
* "If by any means now at length, I might have a prosperous journey" (Rom. 1:10).
* "If by any means I may provoke to emulation" (Rom. 11:14).
* "If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection" (phil. 3:11).
Resurrection is not only a blessed hope, it is inescapable. The unjust as well as the just, they that have done good, and they that have done evil, those who form the Body of Christ, and those who stand before the Great White Throne, each and every one of the seed of the woman, Jew or Gentile, must be raised from the dead. The fact that the Apostle could preface his reference to resurrection in Philippians 3: 11 with an "if" after having expressed his complete surrender to the grace of God in Christ, is of itself an indication that he is not speaking of the fundamental doctrine of resurrection.
"if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection", he knew, that there was the possibility of failing to arrive, just as surely as the venture to attain unto Phenice met with such disaster. In the verse following, he emphasizes the fact that he had not "already attained" but that he "followed after" , still further adding "brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended". Now it is certain that Paul could have entertained no doubt concerning his standing in grace and his acceptance in the Beloved, his hope like an anchor was sure, and if he used words that express contingency and uncertainty, then it is morally certain that he was not speaking of the hope of the believer. In verse 14, he reveals that his uncertainty was related to a "prize", and this attitude of mind he had already exhibited in relation to the same theme in 1 Corinthians 9:24-10:13. The "resurrection", therefore, that was the object of the Apostle's desires here in Philippians 3:11, for which he suffered and was willing to endure, must be something equivalent to "the first resurrection" of Revelation 20:4-6, or the "better resurrection" of Hebrews 11 :35. The words "first" and "better" stand visible for all to read in the passages.
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‘We shall be like Him ... And every man that hath this hope in Him purifieth himself, even as He (the Lord Jesus) is pure’.
The word ‘pure’ here means separated from all sin. God, through the Lord Jesus Christ, has delivered us who believe in Him from sin and we should now have nothing more to do with it. We still have to live in a world in which there is much that is sinful, and we will find ourselves tempted to sin from time to time, but the Lord knows this and helps at these times. See what the Lord prayed for His disciples in John 17:15 :
‘I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil’. The Lord has prayed that those who follow Him should be kept out of the evil of this world, when we have shod our feet with the Gospel it proves we fight not with flesh and blood, but with spiritual wickedness in high places.
God tests us;
All things that are of any worth have been tested or tried. Many of these tests are unpleasant, but they are necessary. So God tests us believers to find out our worth and to examine our faith in Him. These tests are really for our benefit of course, for God knows beforehand how we will react under any circumstances, and He is well pleased when our faith is not shaken. How does He test us ? Read firstly the word of God to Israel in
Deuteronomy 8:2,3 :
‘Thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove (test) thee, to know what was in thine heart ... and he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee ...’.
Israel were tested during their forty years in the wilderness by being allowed to hunger for a while. God never allowed them to starve but kept them waiting before supplying their need. This was a test to see whether or not they would turn to Him in faith for their food. But instead of believing in the One Who had so wonderfully brought them out of the slavery of Egypt, they murmured against Him - their faith failed. They should have known that God, having saved them, would not allow them to starve in the wilderness.
So God tests each believer. It is unlikely that He will test us by hunger in the way He did Israel, but He may well keep us waiting, to test our faith. This could be true of our prayers. God does not always answer prayer straight away, but may keep us waiting, to see just how strong our desire is and to test our faith in Him.
A Christian IS NOT a person who:
Lives in a civilised country.
Goes to church.
Lives the best life he can.
Is christened or baptised and confirmed.
A Christian IS a person who:
BELIEVES IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AS HIS SAVIOUR.
This was excerpted and augmented from the Berean Publishing Trust, orig. by Brian Sherring.
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quote:
Salvation is my reward.
Ok, good, that's what I thought, now we have a point of entry, but first let me say this, and please bear with me, and as always, don't take my word for it, search and see. First a bit on salvation, then a bit on the prize. See if the Bible doesn't distinquish the two different words.
When the serpent (Satan or the devil) brought about the fall of Adam, then he (Adam) became a sinner, and the likeness to God was spoilt. The coming of sin into the world interfered with the purpose of God for man, and made necessary the death of the Lord Jesus Christ to undo this work of the devil. Read the second part of 1 John 3:8:
‘For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil’.
Read also verse 5 of the same chapter:
‘He was manifested to take away our sins’.
The Lord Jesus Christ was given to destroy the devil and his works, and to take away our sins
The Lord Jesus Christ is called in the Bible a Saviour, that is, One Who saves. He is called this because He was sent by His Father to save us from the punishment due to us because we are sinners. All people who have ever lived have been sinners and the punishment for sin is death. The Lord Jesus Christ, Who was not a sinner, accepted the punishment of death which was due to us, when He died on the cross. He died in our place and for
our sins.
On the third day after His death, He rose from the dead, and showed that He had broken the power of death, for it was not able to hold Him. He was made alive again, and through Him God now gives everlasting life to those who believe in Him.
God requires that we should believe in His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, and trust in what He has done for us.
We are to believe that He died and rose again for us. If we do this then we can know we are saved and have everlasting life. If we do not believe it then we cannot know it.
The Lord Jesus not only saves those who believe, from the punishment of sin, but also from its power. He will help them not to give in when they are tempted to sin.
When they look to Him and remember that He has saved them from sin and death, they find that they are able to lead lives pleasing to Him. God never meant anyone to be a sinner, but to live according to His wishes,
and through the Lord Jesus Christ, will give believers the necessary strength to live such lives. God showed His love to us when He sent the Lord Jesus Christ to deal with sin and death. Believers can show their love to Him by the lives they live. When they are kind, helpful and loving to parents, friends and even those not liked so much, then they show their love to God and please Him. Are you one of these believers?
The important thing is to believe in the
Lord Jesus Christ and so be sure of everlasting life. If we reject Him we will be judged for it.
The word ‘sinner’ is used by men of some particularly bad person, but God says that we are all sinners.
Read Romans chapter 3, verses 9 and 10 and notice these words:
‘both Jews and Gentiles ... they are all under sin; as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one’.
This means that we need a Saviour. Since ‘Jews and Gentiles’ includes all people, then all are under sin, and there is not one righteous person by God’s standard. If we are honest, we will already know that we are sinners, for every time we do wrong it shows us that we are not righteous, and are therefore sinners. Some people live very good lives and some very bad lives, but this does not alter the fact that God has said that all are sinners, and all therefore need to believe in
the Lord Jesus Christ as the One Who saves them from sin.
How did we all become sinners?
Romans chapter 5, verse 19 will answer this question:
‘by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners’.
The ‘one man’ spoken of here is Adam, who disobeyed God’s commandment in the garden of Eden. Read the whole story in Genesis, chapter 2 verse 15 to chapter 3 verse 6.
The punishment for sin is death. Read the first part of Romans 6:23 :
‘the wages of sin is death’.
We may say first of all then that a sinner is a person subject to death. When Adam let sin into the world, death came in with it and passed on to all men, for all were sinners. Read Romans 5:12 and remember that the ‘one man’ in this verse is Adam.
‘the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden ... He drove out the man’.
A sinner is therefore a person separated from God.
God is different from us in one very important way. He is righteous and keeps His word. If He says that ‘the wages of sin is death’, then it is so. Sin must be paid for by death. God cannot simply forget about our sin, for He would then be breaking His word, and if He did this, He would be no longer righteous. Our sin must be paid for by death, and this is what the Lord Jesus Christ
has done for us. He took our place and bore the punishment which was really due to us. Read 1 Corinthians 15:3 :
‘Christ died for our sins’.
Read also Romans 5:8. God’s great love to us was shown when the Lord Jesus Christ died for us.
The Lord Jesus did not remain dead, but after three days was made alive again: God raised Him from the dead. His resurrection proves that our sins have been fully paid for.
Abraham was a sinner just like us, but because of his faith (he believed God) he was looked upon as righteous. His faith was counted for righteousness. Verses 23 and 24 tell us that the same can be true of us:
‘Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed (counted) to him; but for us also, to whom it shall be imputed (counted), if we believe on Him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead’.
Justification - God looks on us as though we are righteous.
Reconciliation - We are no longer enemies of God; peace has been made.
Redemption - We are freed from being servants of sin to serve God.
Forgiveness - Our sins are forgiven; we are no longer debtors.
Without light we could not live. This explains why one of the names of the Lord Jesus is ‘the Light of the world’. Read John 8:12 :
‘Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth Me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life’. In order to have life it is necessary to receive the Light, the Lord Jesus Christ, otherwise we remain in darkness and death in this world now.
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trafield
Advanced Member
Member # 5358
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posted
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This is my point exactly. Some say they are saved when they really aren't so we shouldn't be preaching to everyone that once they are saved they are always are because some were not really saved, even though they think they are for a while.
Carmela, this statement makes absolutley no sense.
Whether someone is really saved or not has nothing to do with preaching the Truth. If some only "think" they are saved but are not, does this change the Truth that those that are truly saved are saved for eternity? Of course not!
Me thinks you are starting to confuse yourself...
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There was a time in my life when I was a youth leader for many years, on the prayer team and seeing miracles, and involved with other areas in the church. The churches I went to offered minimal training, although I did get trained before being allowed on the prayer team, but all other training was voluntarily and classes were only offered sometimes. I didn't grow up in the Lord until several years ago. God didn't give up on me, but I did almost give up on Him because I wasn't really understand what the bible said at times and I wasn't getting a full understanding on how much God really does love us. So, although I know I was saved, I also know others that got involved in the church and later left Christianity completely. Their hearts were not fertile and although the looked on the outside, they didn't actually accept Christ as their savior. They just played the part for a while. If they are taught once saved always saved, the point I'm trying to make is it could sometimes cause more problems then do good. I do believe these people, even though they said the sinners prayer, can lose their salvation if they continue to run from God.
Carmela,
Concerning this quote and your ealier statements about new Christians not understanding and sinning...this is where you seem to have a disconnect.
Some new Christians may be so dramatically converted like Paul that they will not have much of a problem leaving their old lifestyle. For others it may take more time. But we are all a work in progress. But this entire topic is about beliefs on losing your salvation. Sin has absolutely nothing to do with loosing your salvation. There is no harm to teaching this to new Christians as long as they understand, as it says in Romans, that this does not mean we can go on sinning...for there is always a price to pay for sin. The problem is you do not seem to have the faith in the Spirit to convict us about sin and to lead us to eventual sanctification.
Regardless, I will certainly teach 'once-saved always saved' because scripture shows that is the Truth. The encouragment and hope that comes from the Truth can never be harmful.
New believers as well as old believers, have a responsibilty to seek the Lord so that they can grow, not rely on the church to do it for them. This is where many in the church get into trouble. They are "playing" church, going through the motions on Sunday, but never studying God's Word for themselves, never praying, never trying to develop an intimite relationship with Jesus Christ. I say "Ask not what your church can do for you, ask what you can do for your church!" I also say, "Ask not what your God can do for you, ask what you can do for your God!"
Again, God knows who are truly His, and those that are His, He will in no way cast out.
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
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Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47
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posted
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Originally posted by Carmela:
Miguel I don't actually get upset when debating or disagreeing with others. The only thing that really upsets me, which I haven't seen from anyone in this post but I have seen in this forum, is when people start attacking each other or new people come and members here do everything they can to chase them away because the members here disagree with new members. We should treat each other with love, even when we disagree.
I am sorry sister did I say that you get up set! ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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Carmela
Advanced Member
Member # 4817
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posted
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Carmela,
If you are truly born again you would not want to do these things. Sure, it is possible to stumble...but to "willfully" and continually have the behaviors you are describing would most likely mean that you are unrepented and not saved, and never really believed to begin with.
This is my point exactly. Some say they are saved when they really aren't so we shouldn't be preaching to everyone that once they are saved they are always are because some were not really saved, even though they think they are for a while.
Miguel I don't actually get upset when debating or disagreeing with others. The only thing that really upsets me, which I haven't seen from anyone in this post but I have seen in this forum, is when people start attacking each other or new people come and members here do everything they can to chase them away because the members here disagree with new members. We should treat each other with love, even when we disagree.
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But that would be for God to judge, he knows who are his whether they already are, have wandered for a time, or have not yet been called.
I agree Trafield.
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That is what being born-again is all about, there is a change, a newness that comes by the Spirit that will convict us when we we sin (not if) and that will lead us back to the right path. And like Jonah, who tried to flee from God's direction, there is a price to pay for sin. So as Christians, we should know that we are going to be where God wants us to be...the only question is do we want to be swallowed by a whale to get there, or do we want to go with confidence, peace, and blessings?
I agree again Trafield. It isn't as much a matter of disagreeing with you, it's a matter of knowing what we are teaching to individuals before we teach it. I'm not saying people are not saved when they accept Christ but that some teachings should be delivered as a Christian matures so they don't take what is taught and run with it, running in the wrong direction. Like choosing to sin and justifying that it's ok because they will always be saved. First, they need to understand salvation, grow, then be taught according to how the spirit leads. Our teaching can be so legalistic in ways like when a woman is being abused but the church tells her she can't leave her husband but he is free to leave her. Then, she returns home and gets killed. Some teachings are taught at the wrong times. It shouldn't be a generic teaching.
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So your question is really an absurd question, but the same absurd question that Paul also addressed in the book of Romans. I suggest you read that book and get the Word in you.
I have and will continue to study it. Thanks. I know these scriptures, but what about someone new in the word that is taught salvation is eternal so keeps on sinning because it was taught before they were mature enough to understand it?
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Carmela,
By the way, I am now in Northeast Tennesse. And debate me? You really don't want to go there.
And anyway, if the Spirit is truly in you, I am confident that you will not lose your salvation and that you will be reigning with me in paradise!
You said you are called somewhere? Is it to Tennessee or on the mission field in other places? Yes, I enjoy debates...and ruffling feathers from time to time also. Thanks for your confidence, I appreciate it.
There was a time in my life when I was a youth leader for many years, on the prayer team and seeing miracles, and involved with other areas in the church. The churches I went to offered minimal training, although I did get trained before being allowed on the prayer team, but all other training was voluntarily and classes were only offered sometimes. I didn't grow up in the Lord until several years ago. God didn't give up on me, but I did almost give up on Him because I wasn't really understand what the bible said at times and I wasn't getting a full understanding on how much God really does love us. So, although I know I was saved, I also know others that got involved in the church and later left Christianity completely. Their hearts were not fertile and although the looked on the outside, they didn't actually accept Christ as their savior. They just played the part for a while. If they are taught once saved always saved, the point I'm trying to make is it could sometimes cause more problems then do good. I do believe these people, even though they said the sinners prayer, can lose their salvation if they continue to run from God.
Epouraniois I wasn't offended by anything you said. I'm sorry but I have to go but I will respond to you either later tonight or tomorrow.
God Bless you all,
Carmela
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www.pinecrest.org
Posts: 646 | From: Central New York | Registered: Jun 2005
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