Christian Message Boards: Don't Be Deceived by False Teachers!

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :

Mark 13:22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

23But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

There are SO MANY Deceptions out there now days that it's overwhelming to try to search them all out. We were warned this would happen, and that it would come from 'wolves in sheeps clothing' - even preachers. Some of these deceptions are So Subtle that they Could Possibly decieve even the elect! That is why it is so important to know what they are and where they're coming from. If I had not done this research, I could have very well been taken in by a few of these deceptions myself (and I have been in the past).

I've always heeded the call to "Expose. (Eph 5:11)" I do this to hopefully shed Light on the Darkness thats overtaking the church. There are some who want to know what the deceptions are (just like me). They may not even participate on the baord, but they read. Also, (and this is my sincere prayer) if exposing these things causes just one persons eyes to be opened to a deception they may have fallen under and this causes them to Repent and Return to their First Love, then TO GOD BE THE GLORY!

Apostasy Now – The Great Falling Away

2 Thessalonians 2:2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

I believe we are seeing the Great Falling Away, but not the way most have expected it to happen.

A lot of people have expected that people will be leaving the Church. What I see happening is that people are leaving the Truth of Scripture and heaping unto themselves teachers to scratch their itchy ears... Therefore Falling Away from Sound Doctrine.

Jesus dealt with heretics harshly, publicly and immediately, as did Paul and the other disciples. And, keep in mind; we’re talking New Testament here friends. In the Old Testament, false prophets were simply taken out and stoned to death for their lies. That’s how serious God is about His Word being rightly divided and properly proclaimed. Jesus and the Apostles are Our Example. They Named Names.

Jesus didn’t rebuke the Scribes and Pharisees privately, HE condemned their blasphemy before one and all and repeatedly warned His disciples about their leaven. The Apostles warned of specific people by name as well. (2 Timothy 4:10; 2 Timothy 4:14-15; 1 Timothy 1:18-20; 2 Timothy 2:16-18; 3 John 1:9-11; Jude 1:11; 2 Peter 2:15 – and there are numerous accounts in the OT as well.)

Should we ‘name names?’ "Yes, it is right to expose error and to name those “...who privily shall bring in damnable heresies...” (2 Peter 2:1). The whole Bible abounds in examples. It is right to “...earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 3). It was once delivered, and it has never been rescinded, repealed, or deleted! Ministers of the Gospel have been charged with a sacred trust to present the Word of God with courage, honesty, and a good conscience. Faithful messengers will warn the sheep of these heretics and identify them by name. It is not enough to broadly hint of their identity, for the young lambs will not understand and will be destroyed by the wolves!" (Note: I am quoting something from another post from 2004 here. This isn't mine)

Here are some examples of what I’m talking about. I’m only going to deal with the WOF movement in this post. There are Many, Many more strands of this Web of Deception that is catching so many believers in it’s snare. It’s absolutely HUGE. Some of the other ‘strands’ include: Freemasonry, New Age Teaching, Manifest Sons of God doctrine, Third Wave movement, Latter Rain movement, Vineyard Movement, Purpose Driven ‘everything’ Movement, Roman Catholicism, the Ecumenical Movement (headed by Rome), and even mainline denominations and Evangelicals. And now we can add 'The Emergent Church Movement' as well. I urge everyone to investigate these things for themselves. Find out what their teachings are and then hold them up to the Straight and True Teaching of The Bible (which is the Very Word of God – God Breathed).

The following quotes are representative of New Age/Freemason teachings that have been adopted by WOF teachers by the twisting of Scripture:

Benny Hinn: "When you say, 'I am a Christian, you are saying, 'I am mashiach' in the Hebrew. I am a little messiah walking on earth, in other words That is a shocking revelation.... May I say it like this? You are a little god on earth running around." ("Praise-a-Thon" program on TBN [6 November 1990].)

Kenneth Copeland : "Adam was made in the image of God. He was as much female as he was male. He was exactly like God. Then God separated him and removed the female part. Woman means 'man with the womb.' Eve had as much authority as Adam did as long as they stayed together." (Sensitivity of Heart [Fort Worth, TX: KCP Publications, 1984], 23.)

Rory Alec : "This represents the fact that Jesus, when you partake of this, this represents that his blood has wash you clean of all sin. And therefore you are gods you have been purchased by the blood of Jesus." (The Christian Channel Europe "Good Morning Europe" Date Unknown)

We will not attain “Perfection” until we receive our Glorified Bodies at the Resurrection/Rapture… and even then, we will Not Be gods. This is what the verse about “the corruptible (our bodies) can not enter Heaven” is talking about.

1 Corinthians 15: 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible (our bodies) must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

New Age and Freemasons believe that all humans have a “divine spark” and are therefore little gods on Earth. I see their teachings creeping into many different churches and it really concerns me. I see this as leading the masses into the one world religion. I’m only dealing with the WOF teachers here in this post, but there are many other ‘divisions’ which are all starting to come under the Ecumenical umbrella of Rome as well.

In this next section of quotes, I have to ask… ”May the FORCE be with you?:

Fred Price : "If you keep talking death, that is what you are going to have. If you keep talking sickness and disease, that is what you are going to have, because you are going to create the reality of them with your own mouth. That is a divine law." (Fred Price, Realm, 29).

Kenneth Copeland: "Faith is a power force. It is a tangible force. It is a conductive force." (The Force of Faith [Fort Worth, TX: KCP Publications, 1989], 10.)

Kenneth Copeland : "What you are saying is exactly what you are getting now. If you are living in poverty and lack and want, change what you are saying.... The powerful force of the spiritual world that creates the circumstances around us is controlled by the words of the mouth." (The Laws of Prosperity, Kenneth Copeland, Ft. Worth: Kenneth Copeland Publications, 1974).

New Agers, Wiccans, and Freemasons also believe that they can ‘create’ what ‘they speak’ and that the ‘spiritual forces’ must obey the ‘spiritual law.’

Frederick K.C. Price : "When I first got saved they didn't tell me 1 could do anything. What they told me to do was that whenever I prayed I should always say, 'The will of the Lord be done.' Now, doesn't that sound humble? It does. Sounds like humility, it's really stupidity. 1 mean, you know, really, we insult God. 1 mean, we really do insult our Heavenly Father. We do; we really insult Him without even realizing it. If you have to say, 'If it be thy will' or 'Thy will be done'--if you have to say that, then you're calling God a fool because He's the One that told us to ask. . . . If God's gonna give me what He wants me to have, then it doesn't matter what 1 ask. I'm only gonna get what God wants me to have. So that's an insult to God's intelligence." ("Ever Increasing Faith" program on TBN [16 November 1990].)

Kenneth Copeland: "As a believer, you have a right to make commands in the name of Jesus. Each time you stand on the Word, you are commanding God to a certain extent because it is His Word." (Our Covenant with God [Fort Worth, TX: KCP Publications, 1987], 32.)

Almighty God operates in HIS WILL, and if we ask in Jesus’ name and in accordance with HIS WILL, He will grant it. Jesus himself taught us to Pray: Thy Will Be Done ( Matthew 6:9-13 ). I don’t believe it is HIS WILL that these preachers live in Mansions paid for by the ‘faith seeds’ of the poor and widows. I believe the Bible refers to this as “Fleecing the Flock,” and there are Many Bible verses that speak judgment against any “Shepard” who would do this.

Here is evidence of False Prophecies:

Benny Hinn: The Holy Spirit has spoken, He told me He is about to show up. Oh, I gotta tell you this just before we go. I had a word of prophecy from Ruth Heflin, you know who Ruth Heflin is? Ruth prophesied over me back in the seventies. Everything she said has happened. She just sent me a word through my wife and said: The Lord spoke to her audibly and said, That He is going to appear physically in one of our crusades in the next few months. Yeah, She... I’m telling ya,.. she said, the Lord spoke to her audibly and said, tell Benny I’m going to appear physically on the platform in his meetings. Lord, do it in Phenox Arizona in the name of Jesus! And in Kenya too, Lord, please, Lord, in fact, do it in every crusade. In Jesus’ name." ("This is Your Day" - Television broadcast, 03-29-00 From 700 Club Studios, Virginia Beach, Va).

Matthew 24: 4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24: 23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before. 26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Benny Hinn: "Now I am going to read one scripture and then I am going to preach and the Devil is going to drop dead." (The Christian Channel Europe "Praise The Lord" (TBN) 22/2/98)

The Bible says (In Revelation) that the Devil, the False Prophet, and the Anti-Christ will be thrown in to the Lake of Fire to suffer Torment for all Eternity.

See This Thread: http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=53;t=000119 For even more False Prophecies spoken by Benny Hinn.

Just Plain OUT THERE False Teaching:

Frederick K.C. Price: "Do you think that the punishment for our sin was to die on a cross? If that were the case, the two thieves could have paid your price. No, the punishment was to go into hell itself and to serve time in hell separated from God. . . . Satan and all the demons of hell thought that they had Him bound. And they threw a net over Jesus and they dragged Him down to the very pit of hell itself to serve our sentence." (Ever Increasing Faith Messenger [June 1980], 7; quoted in D.R. McConnell, A Different Gospel [Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 1988], 120.)

John 1: 29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Luke 23: 42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Kenneth Copeland: "God had no avenue of lasting faith or moving in the earth. He had to have covenant with somebody. . . . He had to be invited in, in other words, or He couldn't come. God is on the outside looking in. In order to have any say so in the earth, He's gonna have to be in agreement with a man here." ("God's Covenants With Man II" [Fort Worth, TX: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1985], audiotape #01-4404, side 1.)

Kenneth Copeland: "I was shocked when I found out who the biggest failure in the Bible actually is....The biggest one is God....I mean, He lost His top-ranking, most anointed angel; the first man He ever created; the first woman He ever created; the whole earth and all the Fullness therein; a third of the angels, at least--that's a big loss, man. . . . Now, the reason you don't think of God as a failure is He never said He's a failure. And you're not a failure till you say you're one." ("Praise-a-Thon" program on TBN [April 1988].)

Kenneth Copeland: "So before Jesus came to the earth, God spoke His Word and then spoke His Word again. How many times did He say the Messiah was coming? It was prophesied over hundreds, even thousands, of years. He kept saying, 'He is coming. He is coming.' The circumstances in the earth made it look as if there was no way He could accomplish it; but He just kept saying it. He would not be moved by what He saw. . . .God would not relent." (Ibid., 9-10.)

Kenneth Copeland (through whom Jesus allegedly delivered the following prophecy): "They crucified Me [Jesus] for claiming that I was God. But I didn't claim I was God; I just claimed I walked with Him [the Father] and that He was in Me." ("Take Time to Pray," Believer's Voice of Victory 15, 2 [February 1987]:9.)

John 1: In the Beginning Was The Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

E.W. Kenyon : "Jesus was conceived without sin. His body was not mortal. His body did not become mortal until the Father laid our sin nature upon Him when He hung on the cross. The moment that He became sin, His body became mortal, only then could He die. When this happened. spiritual death, the nature of Satan, took possession of His Spirit....He was to partake of Spiritual Death, the nature of the Adversary. . . .Jesus knew that the moment had come, and He was to he made Sin. He must partake of that dread nature of the Adversary. His body would become mortal. Satan would become His master. . . . He [Jesus] had been lifted up as a serpent. Serpent is Satan. Jesus knew He was going to be lifted up, united with the Adversary." (What Happened from the Cross to the Throne [Lynnwood, WA: Kenyon's Gospel Publishing Society, 1969], 20, 33, 44-45.)

Copeland and Hinn also teach that Jesus went to Hell and was tormented by Satan and demons. Others may as well, I do not know, but the Bible does not say this. They even teach that Jesus was “Born Again” in Hell!

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

Kenneth Copeland: "You don't think earth was first, do you? Huh? Well, you don't think that God made man in His image, and then made earth in some other image? There is not anything under this whole sun that's new. Are you hearing what I'm saying? This is all a copy. It's a copy of home. It's a copy of the Mother Planet. Where God lives, He made a little one just like His and put us on it." ("Following the Faith of Abraham I" [Fort Worth, TX: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1989], audiotape #01-3001, side 1.)

Benny Hinn: "Adam was a super-being when God created him. I don't know whether people know this, but he was the first superman that really ever lived. First of all, the Scriptures declare clearly that he had dominion over the fowls of the air, the fish of the sea--which means he used to fly. Of course, how can he have dominion over the birds and not be able to do what they do? The word 'dominion' in the Hebrew clearly declares that if you have dominion over a subject, that you do everything that subject does. In other words, that subject, if it does something you cannot do, you don't have dominion over it. 1'11 prove it further. Adam not only flew, he flew to space. He was--with one thought he would be on the moon." ("Praise the Lord" program on TBN [26 December 1991].)

John Avanzini: "Jesus had a nice house, a big house--big enough to have company stay the night with Him at the house. Let me show you His house. Go over to John the first chapter and I'II show you His house. . . . Now, child of God, that's a house big enough to have company stay the night in. There's His house." ("Believer's Voice of Victory" program on TBN [20 January 1991].)

John Avanzini: "Jesus was handling big money because that treasurer He had was a thief. Now you can't tell me that a ministry with a treasurer that's a thief can operate on a few pennies. It took big money to operate that ministry because Judas was stealing out of that bag." ("Praise the Lord" program on TBN [15 September 1988].)

John Avanzini: "John 19 tells us that Jesus wore designer clothes. Well, what else you gonna call it? Designer clothes--that's blasphemy. No, that's what we call them today. I mean, you didn't get the stuff He wore off the rack. It wasn't a one-size-fits-all deal. No, this was custom stuff. It was the kind of a garment that kings and rich merchants wore. Kings and rich merchants wore that garment." "Believer's Voice of Victory" program on TBN [20 January 1991].)

Benny Hinn: "Christians are "Little Messiah's and "little gods" on the earth. Thus [Encouraging the audience]...say "I am a God-man....This spirit-man within me is a God-man..." say "I'm born of heaven-a God-man. I'm a God man. I am a sample of Jesus. I'm a super being. Say it! Say it! Who's a super being? "I walk in the realm of the supernatural." Say it!...You want to prosper? Money will be falling on you from left, right and centre. God will begin to prosper you, for money always follows righteousness....Say after me, "everything I ever want is in me already." (Benny Hinn, TBN, 1990)

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Curse thy enemy? Benny Hinn:

"Those that put us down are a bunch of morons" (Praise-a-Thon, TBN, November 1990);

"Somebody's attacking me because of something I'm teaching. Let me tell you something, brother: You watch it! ...You know, I've looked for one verse in the Bible; I just can't seem to find it. Once verse that said, 'If you don't like them, kill them.' I really wish I could find it! ...You stink frankly- that's the way I think about it! ...Sometimes I wish God will give me a Holy Ghost machine gun; I'll blow your head off" (Praise-a-Thon, TBN, 8th November 1990);

"The Holy Ghost is upon me....The day is coming when those that attack us will drop down dead....Don't touch God's servants; it's deadly....Woe to you that touch God's servants. You're going to pay" (Miracle Invasion Rally, 22nd Nov '91).

"Now I'm pointing my finger with the mighty power of God on me….You hear this: There are men and women in Southern California attacking me. I will tell you under the anointing now, you'll reap it in your children unless you stop….And your children will suffer. You're attacking me on the radio every night- you'll pay and your children will. Hear this from the lips of God's servant. You are in danger. Repent! Or God Almighty will move His hand. Touch not my Anointed…." (World Charismatic Conference, 7th August 1992.);

"You have attacked me, your children will pay for it." (TBN, October 23rd, 1992.)

"That got me so angry- if I could have killed him, I would have" (Orlando Christian Centre, Aug 12th 1992).

Is anyone else seeing this?

A few Scripture to remember when considering the teachings of these folks:

1 Timothy 4: 16Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Matthew 15:8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Isaiah 29:13Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: 14Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

2 John 1: 9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Galatians 1: 6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

2 Peter 2:1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Anyone else here feel like ‘merchandise’ sometimes? With all the so-called ‘Christian’ reading materials, instructional books, and false translations of the Bible; All the movies and CDs, etc. etc… A few names definitely come to mind when I read that passage…

Some would say that we should not speak out on these teachers because “Christ is preached.” But even if Christ is preached (regardless of who’s preaching or what their intentions are) we are Still admonished to keep our Doctrine Pure and Mark those who teach Contrary to the Faith Delivered to us by the Apostles.

The Word-Faith movement is far more dangerous than any of the cults because they have infiltrated the church and leave the distinct impression with the secular world that their brand of "Christianity" truly represents Christianity.1 In truth, it represents the worst teachings ever to go under the name "Christian. This is a Prime example of the Scripture: 2 Peter 2:2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

Jude 1:2Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied. 3Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. 4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :

To Tell the Truth: Bearing a True Witness In a World of Drama -

quote:
David had to deal with many who falsely accused him. In Psalms 35 he speaks of those who are his enemies and how they hate him without reason and devise false accusations against him and many others. David's cry to God in this "O Lord, you have seen this; be not silent. Do not be far from me, O Lord. Awake and rise to my defence! Contend for me, my God and Lord. Vindicate me in your righteousness, O Lord my God; do not let them gloat over me."

Indeed, God did rescue David, putting to shame his enemies and exalting his chosen servant.

Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :

Each one of those quotes from the various False Teachers has a Source listed. Any one is Free and Encouraged to go directly to those sources and check to see that the quotes are accurate.

I bear no false witness.

Posted by ToBeContinued (Member # 4639) on :

1990, 1987, 1989, 1969, 1992, 1991 -

What about 2006, 2005, 2004????

Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :

The dates don't matter. I have not seen (nor has anyone shown me) where these teachers have retracted, corrected, or repented of their false teaching. In fact, many others here have testified to hearing certain teachers Still teaching these same heresies...

The above article was put together by me a couple of years ago and is not the end all of information (to say the least). I have given more current info on Benny Hinn elsewhere, but that too is ignored or defended (which I just don't get!)

This same 'debate' has raged on this message board for Years now... same people, same issues, same defending of those who would teach falsely and lead those who are in need of a good teacher down a false path. It must grieve the Lords heart! I know it does mine [Frown]

Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :

Now if you want true heresy, here it is - Jesus is still being maligned and misunderstood. This aired on Sun.night Dateline - Shocking [Eek!]

The mystery of 'The Jesus Papers'
What if everything you think you know about Jesus is wrong? Author Michael Baigent makes controversial assertions in his new book.(He is also author of Holy Blood, Holy Grail)

Michael Baigent is investigating a grisly crime. He’s tracking down leads, digging for clues, and trying to shed new light on a cold case— a case that is 2,000 years old. And this isn’t just any case: It is perhaps, the most well known story in history—the crucifixion of Jesus.

Sara James, Dateline correspondent: You believe that much of what we think we know about Jesus is a lie?

Michael Baigent, author: It’s a lie. It’s an obvious lie.
Hard to imagine? Author Michael Baigent has captured readers’ imaginations before with a provocative non-fiction work in which he claimed Jesus was married. Some of the same ideas appear in “The Da Vinci Code” by Dan Brown. In fact, he sued Brown’s publisher for copyright infringement. Brown and his publisher strongly deny they did anything wrong. A decision is pending in the case.

Now, Baigent has a new book, "The Jesus Papers," with an even more controversial premise which challenges the conventional story about Jesus.

James: So basically, you’re asking anybody who is a Christian to question their fundamental beliefs?

Baigent: Absolutely.

James: Some might call your position heresy.

Baigent: I should hope they would.

While he considers himself an investigator bent on exposing the truth, scholars say the tale he weaves is fiction— fantasy, rather than fact.

Elaine Pagels, religious scholar, Princeton University: It’s imaginative to say the least.

Craig Evans, evangelical New Testament scholar at Acadia Divinity College: It’s voodoo scholarship, it shouldn’t be taken credibly.

It’s criticism Baigent has heard before, back in 1982, when he and two co-authors wrote “Holy Blood, Holy Grail.”

The book’s popularity has soared since the “Da Vinci Code.” Thanks to that book and the soon-to-be released movie, devoted fans around the world can recite a key story line— that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were not only married but had a child, and the descendants live on to this day.

But the plot doesn’t end there. For more than 20 years, author Michael Baigent has kept the trail warm, chasing secrets from London to Jerusalem. He’d heard about a “smoking gun” of sorts, documents containing extraordinary information about Jesus—and he wanted to get his hands on them.

James: Where have you traveled on your search for these documents?

Baigent: It’s not just documents of course. It’s carvings, sites, underground tombs, underground temples. But I’ve been to Egypt a lot and spent a lot of time in the Middle East. Italy too... and, of course, France.

We followed in his footsteps in search of answers— traveling from England to France, Israel to Italy on a trail that would have twists, turns and even giant leaps. It was a journey into the shadowy world of antiquities, where the trade in artifacts is often illegal.

Baigent: This clandestine market by its very nature, you just can’t get a hold of the documents.

James: Is it dangerous?

Baigent: Where lots of money is involved, there’s always a risk. And one thing I’ve learned over the years is to keep my mouth shut which is why I’ve not spoken about a lot of these things— until now really.

Baigent says he’s breaking his silence because he’s seen and held shocking documents, including two he named his book after, calling them “The Jesus Papers.” And he makes this astonishing claim: that the Church wants to keep them secret.

Baigent: You can make sure they never see the light of day—that they’re destroyed. That they’re lost. That they’re hidden away. And this is the situation that I’ve found.

James: So you’re saying that there’s a cover up?

Baigent: There is a cover up. Of course there’s a cover up.

A cover up, he contends, because his clues point to a radical conclusion: that Jesus did not die on the cross.

Baigent: I don’t think Jesus died at the crucifixion. I think he survived.

In the Bible, the story is told like this: Jesus spent his final hours on a hillside in Jerusalem. Sentenced to death, the peasant preacher was nailed to a wooden cross and left to die and was later resurrected.

The site would become holy to Christians around the world, now the location of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.

What do we really know about what happened on that fateful day 2,000 years ago? The exact details of the crucifixion have always been steeped in mystery. What we do have are pieces of evidence from four different and sometimes contradictory gospels written at least 30 years after Jesus died.

James: So you believe even in the Bible, there are clues to what you believe is the truth.

Baigent: Absolutely. If we read them closely and ask the questions we can come up with a very, very different construction.

With the Bible as his source, Baigent reconstructed the story of the crucifixion and arrived at an entirely new version of events.

A secret deal with Pontius Pilate
He says Pontius Pilate, who ordered Jesus’s death, actually made a secret deal to save his life.

Baigent: It was rigged. It was a fraud. I think the crucifixion was set up precisely to remove a particular political problem which both Pilate and Jesus found themselves within.

Pilate, Baigent argues, he needed to appease the crowd which was calling for Jesus’s death. But because Jesus had urged his followers to pay their taxes to Rome, Baigent argues Pilate also had an incentive to let Jesus live.

Baigent: It’s my hypothesis that he rigged the crucifixion such that Jesus would survive but very quickly removed Jesus from the scene.

According to Baigent, Jesus and his supporters were also in on this plot. Baigent acknowledges there no proof of his theory, but it was possible to survive crucifixion. There is at least one example in early historical records. The Jewish historian, Josephus, writes about finding three of his friends nailed to the cross.

Baigent: He pleaded with Roman authorities and got them brought down. Two of them died. One survived. If the crucifixion was arranged to allow a survival, it could be done.

It’s a theory that was first raised in a book called “The Passover Plot” 40 years ago, which was dismissed by scholars. But Baigent believes the theory deserves a second look. The plot would have gone like this: Jesus would have been sedated so that he looked dead and then later revived after being taken down from the cross.

Baigent: The way to survive it would be to reduce the trauma. It would be to get the person off the cross quickly. And it would be to minister to that person as soon as possible afterwards. And all three of these factors we can find in the New Testament.

The vinegar-soaked sponge
He says where the Gospels relate how a thirsty Jesus called out for something to drink. A sponge soaked in vinegar was placed on a reed and lifted to Jesus’ mouth. But rather than reviving him, Jesus died shortly after drinking the liquid. Baigent says that detail suggests how the

plot might have been carried out.

Baigent: I think it’s more likely that they raised the sponge with some kind of anesthetic, which knocked Jesus out, which would reduce the trauma and make it easier for him to survive.

James: What do you think those drugs might have been?

Baigent: Well, they used hashish, opium, belladonna. There was a mixture of drugs.

Baigent says his account would explain why Jesus apparently died so quickly. While normally a person lingered on the cross for three days, according to the gospels, Jesus died within hours. Of course, there is another widely accepted explanation for Jesus’s quick death: He had been beaten, stabbed, in addition to being crucified.

Full transcript

Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :

amen, sister HisGrace, that is true heresy; not this stuff that is being posted on this Exposing False Teaching forum.

Except also that what the Mormons teach is also heresy and apparently what the JWs teach is also heresy if they teach that about the Archangel Michael as Caretaker says. And books like The DaVinci Code and the books you mention in your post, now that is true heresy. I agree 100% with you on that.

BORN AGAIN in the USA

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :

BA: I both agree and disagree with you. This is a good example of heresy. But this is not the church. This is the world's blasphemy of what they cannot know. It is foolishness and shows the ingnorance of man and the evil of the enemy in that he will go to great extreme to blaspheme.

But, to say that it is heresy in place of what is spoken of elsewhere is not so. When the Bible warns of false teachers it warns of them coming from within the ranks of the church; it speaks of shepherds who lead the flock astray, it speaks of wolves who are dressed like sheep and seek to devour the flock.

These people are not them that are spoken of here:

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Luke 10:3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 Peter 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

2 Peter 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :

quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
amen, sister HisGrace, that is true heresy; not this stuff that is being posted on this Exposing False Teaching forum.

Except also that what the Mormons teach is also heresy and apparently what the JWs teach is also heresy if they teach that about the Archangel Michael as Caretaker says. And books like The DaVinci Code and the books you mention in your post, now that is true heresy. I agree 100% with you on that.

BORN AGAIN in the USA

My sentiments exactly BORN AGAIN!!

quote:
From HFHS -BA: I both agree and disagree with you. This is a good example of heresy. But this is not the church. This is the world's blasphemy of what they cannot know. It is foolishness and shows the ingnorance of man and the evil of the enemy in that he will go to great extreme to blaspheme.

But, to say that it is heresy in place of what is spoken of elsewhere is not so. When the Bible warns of false teachers it warns of them coming from within the ranks of the church; it speaks of shepherds who lead the flock astray, it speaks of wolves who are dressed like sheep and seek to devour the flock.

These people are not them that are spoken of here:

The poisoned motives of such people should be squelched anywhere and everywhere.

The Title of this Forum is 'Exposing False Teaching ' and the title of this thread is Deceived by False Teachers'. Michael Baigant has a degree in psychology and has given lectures and talks, so thousands are being taught ridiculous lies. It is our duty to be prayerfully concerned about this form of teaching blatant heresey against our Saviour, more so than purported heresy by televangelists, who loudly acclaim the power of Jesus' blood and the cross.

Over 40 million copies of the DaVinci Code have been sold and the movie is coming out in May. We should be extremely cognoscente to the influence of this material on a lost generation. I know it heavily burdens me. Hungry souls should be warned about the devils' devices no matter what avenue they take. [Bible]

Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :

Then may I respectfully suggest, HisGrace, that you start a new thread exposing those heresies coming from "outside" of the Church, as this thread is meant to deal with False Teachings/Teachers/Prophets who are Within the Church [Smile]

2 Peter 2:1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Galatians 1: 6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Matthew 24: 4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24: 23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before. 26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Jude 1:2Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied. 3Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. 4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :

quote:
The poisoned motives of such people should be squelched anywhere and everywhere.

I agree. Still to say that this is heresy and what is currently being preached from America's pulpits by the likes of Hinn, Warren, and more who have been discussed her is not heresy is not true, and those scriptures that I posted do not speak to secular writers, the are written of people in the body who look like sheep, but are wolves; the world will always speak contrary to the word they can do nothing but speak contrary to the word... the world are wolves and they dont try to look like sheep. It is the ones that present themselves as sheep, but that are wolves that Paul, and Peter, and Jesus warned the church about. When Satan comes as an angel of light. That is when there is great danger.

When Satan just looks like Satan it is easy to know your enemy. We are enemity with the world. That is a given and these people do hurt the ones that are not strong in faith or well versed in scripture and they hurt those who have not yet heard the Gospel. Yes, we must call them what they are, but to say that this is heresy and the other is not is a lie. I love BA, and I understand that at this point that is his perception, that his statement is true, but it is not. And one only has to look at the scripture to see that these men do not fit the description of those whom Paul and Peter speak of in the scriptures I gave.

Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :

quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
The poisoned motives of such people should be squelched anywhere and everywhere.

Amen Sister HisGrace. [thumbsup2]

Again from HisGrace -

quote:
It is our duty to be prayerfully concerned about this form of teaching blatant heresey against our Saviour, more so than purported heresy by televangelists, who loudly acclaim the power of Jesus' blood and the cross.

Need I say more. [Cross]

Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :

quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:

quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
The poisoned motives of such people should be squelched anywhere and everywhere.
Amen Sister HisGrace.

Again from HisGrace -
quote:
It is our duty to be prayerfully concerned about this form of teaching blatant heresey against our Saviour, more so than purported heresy by televangelists, who loudly acclaim the power of Jesus' blood and the cross.
Need I say more.

huh???? I think this is the first time I've ever seen someone quote themselves and then amen themselves... [spiny]

I don't disagree that those things should be spoken against, but what I'm asking you here is that you Not Hijack this thread [Wink]

It would be better to start a new thread on that subject.

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

It must be hard to find an amen pew, among fundamentalist Believers, for those who continue to defend false teachers. [Roll Eyes]

The truth will prevail and the corrupt fruit of the false teachers will be rewarded. The question remains how many will partake of their spirit of deception, and how many defenders will be held accountable for aiding in it.

I deeply appreciate the faithfulness and dedication of Deb, Linda, Hardcore, by-grace, who stand firm for the Word. You are a blessing.

Those who blindly defend false teachers are to be pitied and sorrowed for as they continue to reject what is true.

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :

I disagree with this:

quote:
It is our duty to be prayerfully concerned about this form of teaching blatant heresey against our Saviour, more so than purported heresy by televangelists, who loudly acclaim the power of Jesus' blood and the cross.

The Bible clearly says that the world will deny Christ, that is a given. They being carnal can so nothing else. A professor, teacher, writer, psychologst, any profession that you want to name who is not sealed and indwelled by the Holy Spirit will deny Christ until such time that the Father extends grace to them and calls them and the power of the Gospel moves them. Only if and when this happens will the carnal mind ever be able to do anything else but deny Christ and see the Bible as foolishness.

The only thing that the Bible tells us to do with that fact is to preach the Gospel. That is what we do in the world to combat the lies of the world about our Christ along with living in the world walking in the spirit, having presented our bodies as living sacrifice, and having sanctified HIM in our hearts, and crucified the desires, deeds and lusts and afections of flesh, living in victory in peace and joy and power whether abased or abundant, in sickness or health, and in love care and fellowship with the brethren, all of which is to preach the Gospel for a witness.

However, the scripture says that in the church there will be those who come in the church looking like the church, and they will bring with them damnible heresy and these heresy must come because when they come, those who are appoved are manifest.

The Bible tells us that when we encounter these we are to know them, confront them, mark them if they do not repent, and have nothing to do with them.

Further, the Bible tells us that we are to preach the word in season and out of season; Contend for the Faith; be apt to teach.

In answer to your question HisGrace, no, you need not say more; you have already said enough that it is very clear that you do not get it!

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :

By the way here is what the Bible says about amening ones self:

2 Corinthians 10:17 But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. 18 For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.

Posted by saved1948 (Member # 5391) on :

The Bible states that many will be deceived in the end times with false teachers.<><

Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on :

quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
Need I say more.

No. You do not.

Believe me, there are plenty who have heard quite enough of your nonsensical defense of false teachers.

Maybe it goes over well on other boards that you frequent, but we're not buying what you're selling.

Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :

quote:
Originally posted by hardcore:

quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
Need I say more.
No. You do not.

Believe me, there are plenty who have heard quite enough of your nonsensical defense of false teachers.

Maybe it goes over well on other boards that you frequent, but we're not buying what you're selling.

I notice that you only show up to when you want to make trouble hardcare. Do you not have a burden for souls at all? Do you not want to educate the lost in any way or venue you can? This isn't fun and games.

Personally I am extremely concerned about the following. It is very heavy on my heart. Are you not hearing at all what I presenting to you?

quote:
Over 40 million copies of the DaVinci Code have been sold and the movie is coming out in May. We should be extremely cognoscente to the influence of this material on a lost generation. I know it heavily burdens me. Hungry souls should be warned about the devils' devices no matter what avenue they take

quote:
Michael Baigent is investigating a grisly crime. He’s tracking down leads, digging for clues, and trying to shed new light on a cold case— a case that is 2,000 years old. And this isn’t just any case: It is perhaps, the most well known story in history—the crucifixion of Jesus.

Sara James, Dateline correspondent: You believe that much of what we think we know about Jesus is a lie?

Michael Baigent, author: It’s a lie. It’s an obvious lie.

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :

quote:
I notice that you only show up to when you want to make trouble hardcare. Do you not have a burden for souls at all? Do you not want to educate the lost in any way or venue you can? This isn't fun and games.

Personally I am extremely concerned about the following. It is very heavy on my heart. Are you not hearing at all what I presenting to you?

Talk about moats and beams!!!

Hisgrace, I have to ask you this... I know someone on another board who shares your burden regarding this book; it is because of her burden that I am aware of the book. I dont read fiction so I would never have picked it up; my husband read it so he could tell me about it because I would never have made it through the first chapter ads I just have no interest in novels. But my desire to know more about it was spawned by my sister's burden who spoke about its dangers and posted many articles to warn the church and make them aware of the issues.

If this is your burden why have you not done these things so that we could be aware of the impending evil?

Why do you only speak of this burden in a way as to say that it should be more a burden than the burden that I or Deb or Drew or hardcore have for other dangers?

Indeed this book is not good. This book is definetly of the devil and meant to color peoples minds with dis-belief. It is worthy of all our concerns, but not more so than others concerns that you do not want preached about here. If God has truly given you a burden on this subject teach us about it that we can share that burden and stop trying to undermine the burdens that God has given others. If God gave you this burden I do not believe that it was for the purpose of undermining those who were given other burdens.

And may I add that this is purely speculative on your part and I believe it is speculation in error.

quote:
I notice that you only show up to when you want to make trouble hardcare

Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :

quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Indeed this book is not good. This book is definetly of the devil and meant to color peoples minds with dis-belief. It is worthy of all our concerns, but not more so than others concerns that you do not want preached about here. If God has truly given you a burden on this subject teach us about it that we can share that burden and stop trying to undermine the burdens that God has given others. If God gave you this burden I do not believe that it was for the purpose of undermining those who were given other burdens.

You know why I have a burden - it's because this book is tearing apart the very fibre of what Jesus was, and why he died for us.

Stop focusing on websites re what is 'purporting to be true' about Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland and Joyce Meyers, and turn to the Bible to see what the Truth is about Jesus.

Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :

quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
Stop focusing on websites re what is 'purporting to be true' about Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland and Joyce Meyers, and turn to the Bible to see what the Truth is about Jesus.

Stop Ignoring people who are Telling You they HEARD these things Themselves! Open your eyes HisGrace and also... stop trying to switch the topic and hijack threads.

I'm going on Vacation... God Bless all the Brethern who Stand Firm on HIS WORD and Defend it's Integrity from the wiles of the False Teachers/Prophets! In Jesus Name, Amen!

Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :

quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
You know why I have a burden - it's because this book is tearing apart the very fibre of what Jesus was, and why he died for us.

When we start focusing on Jesus we cannot get enough of his sweet savour, and hurt to see him suffer.

2 Cor. 1:14,15 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on :

quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
I notice that you only show up to when you want to make trouble hardcare. Do you not have a burden for souls at all? Do you not want to educate the lost in any way or venue you can? This isn't fun and games.

Whether what I say is considered "making trouble" or not, is up to each individual here to decide. Some might agree with you, some will not.

If standing for solid doctrine is being a "troublemaker", so be it. I am in good company, and I don't just mean on this board. Jesus, Paul, and friends were quite the "troublemakers" too - coincidently enough, for doing the same thing.

Of course I have a burden for lost souls. Of course I want to educate the lost. And I most certainly do not consider taking a stand for God's Word "fun and games". Do you think I enjoy the fact that the church is drowning in deceit and apostacy? Do you think I want a bunch of deceived Christians out there spreading their false doctrine around? The church needs to wake up and get their act together. Judgement begins with us, remember?

No HisGrace. I do not think this is fun and games. I take it very seriously. And it troubles me to no end to continue to have to deal with the fact that so many Christians are blind and clueless.

quote:
HisGrace:
Personally I am extremely concerned about the following. It is very heavy on my heart. Are you not hearing at all what I presenting to you?

quote:
Over 40 million copies of the DaVinci Code have been sold and the movie is coming out in May. We should be extremely cognoscente to the influence of this material on a lost generation. I know it heavily burdens me. Hungry souls should be warned about the devils' devices no matter what avenue they take
Or

quote:
Michael Baigent is investigating a grisly crime. He’s tracking down leads, digging for clues, and trying to shed new light on a cold case— a case that is 2,000 years old. And this isn’t just any case: It is perhaps, the most well known story in history—the crucifixion of Jesus.

Sara James, Dateline correspondent: You believe that much of what we think we know about Jesus is a lie?

Michael Baigent, author: It’s a lie. It’s an obvious lie.

Yes, I hear what you are presenting. It is not new news to me. I was debunking the DaVinci Code long before that bandwagon got rolling and long before the plethora of Christian handbooks came out. I have discussed the lies in that book with many a non-believer. I read it specifically so I could do so, because I knew many who were getting sucked into it - my family included.

I know who Michael Baigent is. We have had a copy of Holy Blood, Holy Grail in our home for many years - easily ten. This is not new information for me or from him. It's simply being re-hashed and re-packaged because he's selling a new book.

Do I think it stinks and that it's dangerous to believers and non-believers alike? Yes. But this is a thread about false teachers within the church. It is not the same. It is deception, yes; but an entirely different kind than is taking place within the church, as HFHS has already stated.

As HFHS also stated, if you have a burden for this, then by all means start a thread on every board you participate on.

BTW - I have seen several of the Christian books that debunk the DaVinci Code. They are not all equal with regard to being user friendly. I have one that is my favorite - very easy to read and follow. If you're interested, I'll pass the info on to you. It's not real big, very easy to use, and refutes the book chapter by chapter - point by point. I'm sure you'd like it. It's also a nice copy to give to people because it's not large and overwhelming.

Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :

quote:
Originally posted by hardcore:
[QUOTE]
Of course I have a burden for lost souls. Of course I want to educate the lost. And I most certainly do not consider taking a stand for God's Word "fun and games". Do you think I enjoy the fact that the church is drowning in deceit and apostacy? Do you think I want a bunch of deceived Christians out there spreading their false doctrine around? The church needs to wake up and get their act together. Judgement begins with us, remember?

False doctrine?

What will we be judged on?

Are Christians who love the Lord and see things differently than you going to be judged?

"Deceived" Christians running around spreading their false doctrine sounds kind of legalistic.

In the past History of the Church it was rarely ever the non-believers or the other religions that persecuted Christians. It was Christians persecuting Christians.

A person could follow all the so called correct DOCTRINE and still be lost, lost, lost.

Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :

sister HisGrace, I agree with you that we should protect the church from things like "The DaVinci Code" and other books like it, "The Holy Blood and Holy Grail" and whatever, spreading lies about Jesus asking Judas to act as middleman with the Romans, that Jesus wanted to get himself handed over to the Romans BEFORE Passover so that somehow Jesus could get himself killed ON Passover. Yeah, like the Romans are going to killing Jesus on a day HE wants.

We need to have our eyes open for New Agers and Mormons and DaVinci Code type lies, not for what an already bornagain Christian like the Copelands and Joyce Myer and Benny Hinn have "also said" in addition to their statement of faith in Jesus.

Hello, they are still bornagain Christians and God isn't going to throw them over for that.

I agree with you, sister HisGrace, we should focuas on the ones I mentioned and you mentioned; not on people within the church who are already bornagain Christians, saved sinners, yes, capable of making mistakes, yes, what does not survive the eventual fire of God's purity at His Coming will be replaced by what the truth was, but the Copelands and Joyce Myer and Betty Hinn are still bornagain Christians, right now while I am writing this, are they not?

Bless the LORD God of Israel. BORN AGAIN

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :

BA: How many more do you think would have followed Russel out of the church to become Jehovah Witnesses or Smith out of the church to become Mormons had people not called them false prophets when they began to preach heresy in the church?

Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :

quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
sister HisGrace, I agree with you that we should protect the church from things like "The DaVinci Code" and other books like it, "The Holy Blood and Holy Grail" and whatever, spreading lies about Jesus asking Judas to act as middleman with the Romans, that Jesus wanted to get himself handed over to the Romans BEFORE Passover so that somehow Jesus could get himself killed ON Passover. Yeah, like the Romans are going to killing Jesus on a day HE wants.

We need to have our eyes open for New Agers and Mormons and DaVinci Code type lies, not for what an already bornagain Christian like the Copelands and Joyce Myer and Benny Hinn have "also said" in addition to their statement of faith in Jesus.

Hello, they are still bornagain Christians and God isn't going to throw them over for that.

I agree with you, sister HisGrace, we should focuas on the ones I mentioned and you mentioned; not on people within the church who are already bornagain Christians, saved sinners, yes, capable of making mistakes, yes, what does not survive the eventual fire of God's purity at His Coming will be replaced by what the truth was, but the Copelands and Joyce Myer and Betty Hinn are still bornagain Christians, right now while I am writing this, are they not?

Bless the LORD God of Israel. BORN AGAIN

Agreed - If they profess to be born again and preach the saving power of Jesus' blood, are we messing with God's anointed ones when we drag them through the mud?

Someone is going to try and say it is the message and not the person. The 'person' is the anointed one who delivers the message. King Saul, the anointed king, was killed; it wasn't his message that was killed.

Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :

HisGrace, the point is they have been preaching more than Just the saving Power of Jesus's blood.

They have been preaching it took more than just the blood of Jesus on the cross. They preach it took his Spiritual death in hell as well.

Have you not been reading the posts? They are adding to the scriptures. Thats the point. Some even going so far as to say if you do not believe that it took more than the finished work on the cross then you may not be saved. And that my friend is standing as judge or judging someones salvation.

And who killed King Saul Hisgrace, and what was Saul's message?

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :

quote:
Agreed - If they profess to be born again and preach the saving power of Jesus' blood, are we messing with God's anointed ones when we drag them through the mud?

God may annoint someone for a task; but that person walks outside and out from under that annointing when they preach contrary to scripture... that is out of their flesh not their annointing.

We are not messing with God's annointed when we speak of error; we are standing on God's word without respect of person.

Peter was annointed and appointed to be an Apostle, Paul was not messing with God's annointed when he told him he was in error; and had Peter not heard the Spirit and repented of that Error, Paul would have preached against Peter's error.

When Joseph Smith and Charles Russel began preaching heresy, they were both professing Christians and members of the church;

This is a very Christian sounding statement would you agree:

This is in defence of the resurrection which is on trial today in the world:

"It was faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ that moved his disciples to preach the gospel throughout the Greco-Roman world—"in all creation that is under heaven." (Colossians 1:23) In fact, Jesus' resurrection is the very foundation of Christian faith."

What about this:

God sent His Son to the earth by transferring his life to the womb of Mary. So Jesus did not have a human father. That is why he did not inherit any sin or imperfection. God sent Jesus to earth for three reasons: (1) To teach us the truth about God (John 18:37), (2) to maintain perfect integrity, providing a model for us to follow (1 Peter 2:21), and (3) to sacrifice his life to set us free from sin and death. Why was this needed?—Matthew 20:28.

Both statements are from the Watchtower Official Site.

They profess:
Jesus Born of a Virgin
Jesus Son of God
Jesus died buried, risen and ascended a sacrifice to free us from sin and death
Jesus the hope of our rising
Jesus coming again to cleanse the earth and establish his kingdom.

Here is some more good sounding stuff:

You are created in the image of God.

God provided a Savior, Jesus Christ, who would make it possible for sins to be forgiven, and for all people who accept His sacrifice to return to live with the Heavenly Father.

For this purpose, He has sent His Son into the world. Through the Savior, nothing can “separate us from the love of God” (Romans 8:39).

Heaven is the place where God lives and the future home of those who follow Him. The hope of our Heavenly Father and the goal of each person on this earth is to return to live with Him. This means that the opportunity to return to our Heavenly Father has been provided through the grace of our Savior, Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is Heavenly Father’s Only Begotten Son in the flesh. He is our Redeemer. Through Jesus Christ, Heavenly Father has provided a way for all people to become like Him and return to live with Him forever.

We love Christ. We worship Christ. He is our example and our Savior.

The above is from the Mormon Webisite.

Now, granted if you visit those websites you will find other information that tell you that these groups though they profess Jesus are not Christian.

They have come out from among us fully.

In the church today there are those who more cunningly do not post all that they teach on their websites. Still they teach things that tell some of us that they are not in agreement with the scriptures and as the Moromons and the Jeshovah witnesses do, these teach things that are not in the Bible. Ironically, some of the very same things that Mormon's teach.

But these do not post in black and white clearly the errors that they teach instead they craft their statements carefully so as not to offend Christians, because without Christians they would have no income.

The Bible speaks to this:

1 Timothy 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

6 ¶ But godliness with contentment is great gain.
7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.

9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

Posted by David (Member # 1) on :

Now Saul actually was a pretty good king. He did rule quite wisely. The only trouble is, he rebelled against God very quickly, and therefore God took the throne away from him and eventually gave it to King David. And when we look at the rulers over Israel, they really begin with David. David is the line that began the real rule over Israel, even though Saul had reigned forty years before David.

Also there are so many preachers claiming to be anointed. The only one that anointed them was themselves. They are self anonited. Just because they keep telling everyone over and over and over and over how anointed they are! Don't mean that God has anointed them. When God anoints someone thay don't have to keep telling everyone that they are anointed. They just go on about God business and people can tell they are anointed.

The difference between King Saul and King David is that David was sold out to God, Saul was sold out to Saul and Saul would NOT repent!!!

David repented!

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :

quote:
Now Saul actually was a pretty good king. He did rule quite wisely. The only trouble is, he rebelled against God very quickly, and therefore God took the throne away from him and eventually gave it to King David. And when we look at the rulers over Israel, they really begin with David. David is the line that began the real rule over Israel, even though Saul had reigned forty years before David.

Also there are so many preachers claiming to be anointed. The only one that anointed them was themselves. They are self anonited. Just because they keep telling everyone over and over and over and over how anointed they are! Don't mean that God has anointed them. When God anoints someone thay don't have to keep telling everyone that they are anointed. They just go on about God business and people can tell they are anointed.

The difference between King Saul and King David is that David was sold out to God, Saul was sold out to Saul and Saul would NOT repent!!!

David repented!

Amen! And it is not for us to say dont touch me I am God's annointed; this is for God to say. That scripture is so used out of context today. It had nothing what so ever to do with speaking up against false teachings and doctrines and sin in the church all of which we are commanded to do.

Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :

sister WhiteEagle wrote somewhere in here that "God was bigger than the Copeland and Myer and Hinn" (my paraphrase of it; I couldn't find it to copy it).

sister helpforhomeschoolers writes to WhiteEagle

quote:
I respect you believe this and though I would like it not to be so; I am sure that it is a result of my lack of ability to adequately communicate.

sister helpforhomeschoolers, if you could only communicate your position enough? Then WhiteEagle would begin to believe like you on this false teacher matter? I don't think she would if you could teach like Paul. I'm actually surprised that you are ON that side of the forum. [wave3]

God bless, BORN AGAIN by the [Cross]

Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :

brother Caretaker writes

quote:
It must be hard to find an amen pew, among fundamentalist Believers, for those who continue to defend false teachers.

not really. I think our section is smaller but the amen pews are definitely there. Look right in front of you; see us there?

God bless, BORN AGAIN in the USA

Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :

sister SoftTouch writes to sister HisGrace

quote:
Stop Ignoring people who are Telling You they HEARD these things Themselves!

I don't think that sister HisGrace is ignoring the people who say they have heard it themselves.

quote:
Open your eyes HisGrace and also... stop trying to switch the topic and hijack threads.

her eyes are wide open and cannot believe this forum.

quote:
I'm going on Vacation... God Bless [b]all the Brethren who Stand Firm on HIS WORD and Defend its Integrity from the wiles of the False Teachers/Prophets! In Jesus Name, Amen!

And what about the other bornagain Christians, sister SoftTouch? Will you really only pray for the brothers and sisters who agree with you about the vailidity of this kind of "exposing false teaching" forum.

Or, as sister HisGrace intimated when she said, "just watch now, they'll say it's the MESSAGE and not the person", but the truth is, the people who say they are "exposing false teaching" really have the people themselves in mind as "exposting false teachers."

They call their forum "exposing false teaching" but they really have "exposing false teachers" in mind.

And that's my little sermon for the day. [type]

BORN AGAIN in the USA by the [Cross]

of Lord God Yeshua-Jesus

Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :

WhiteEagle quotes sister hardcore as writing

quote:
Do you think I enjoy the fact that the church is drowning in deceit and apostacy?

sister hardcore, you go to church, right? When you are in the church that you go to, and the congregation is there, is the church or just your congregation drowning in deceit and apostacy, or would you say that you to go a more peacful and worshipful church than that? sister hardcore, is it not true that most churches are warm and friendly and the people love each other and greet each other and listen to the preacher and have brought their own Bibles with them.

The idea that the church is drowning in deceit and apostacy is a myth. Show me where geographically it is located, if you can.

On a percentage basis from 100% to 0%, how much of the church would you say is "drowning in deceit and apostacy" and "how much of the church is still "worshipful and carrying their Bibles into church and try to be loving and kind"?

thank you. BORN AGAIN in the USA

Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :

sister hardcore writes to sister HisGrace

quote:
Believe me, there are plenty who have heard quite enough of your nonsensical defense of false teachers.

that's over the top, sister hardcore, and unbecoming of a Christian.

I like you, sister hardcore, but don't make to many excuses for "I have a hard core, that' just the way it is".

When Moses threw the tree into the spring Marah, the spring became sweet.

When the Holy Spirit comes into our lives, Jesus represents the tree which is thrown into the world (into the bitter spring of Marah).

Hanging out with Jesus and His Holy Spirit and Their Loving Father LORD YHWH should make our hard core a little sweeter, shouldn't it?

I basically like you, hardcore. At least you're out there where I can read you. [thumbsup2]

But that remark to HisGrace is unbecoming of the Lord's people. But, let s/he who is without sin cast the first stone. [happyhappy]

God bless, BORN AGAIN

Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :

sister yahsway writes to sister HisGrace

quote:
HisGrace, the point is they have been preaching more than Just the saving Power of Jesus's blood.

They have been preaching it took more than just the blood of Jesus on the cross. They preach it took his Spiritual death in hell as well.

Have you not been reading the posts? They are adding to the scriptures. Thats the point.

BORN AGAIN [Cross]

Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :

sister hardcore writes to sister HisGrace

quote:
Whether what I say is considered "making trouble" or not, is up to each individual here to decide. Some might agree with you, some will not.

I don't think that what sister hardcore has said on this CBBS has been making trouble anymore than any else on this CBBS, seeing as how no one is perfect around here:

"let s/he who is without sin cast the first stone"

(but go and sin no more) (but if we sin, we have an Advocate with the Father) (for if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just (because Jesus already died) to forgive us our sins) (because Jesus died for our sins already)

God bless all who participate on this CBBS. BORN AGAIN

Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :

quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:

quote:
I'm going on Vacation... God Bless all the Brethren who Stand Firm on HIS WORD and Defend its Integrity from the wiles of the False Teachers/Prophets! In Jesus Name, Amen!
And what about the other bornagain Christians, sister SoftTouch? Will you really only pray for the brothers and sisters who agree with you about the vailidity of this kind of "exposing false teaching" forum.

I have not left for vacation yet but I have been sitting on my hands trying not to post here as I needed a break.

BA you say HisGrace is sitting in disbelief of this forum, well I am now sitting in Disbelief of your posts.

You were admonished after your last attack on me and yet you totally ignored it. You brought false accusations against me (using scripture) and when it was shown by Sister Linda and others that you were Dead Wrong, you did not even so much as say "I'm Sorry." And now you continue with accusatory questions...

I may have said in my post that I would pray for the Brethern who stand up for God's Holy Word and Expose the Lies (as I wish to lift them up to the Lord for HIS Comfort and Strength in this ongoing battle for HIS Truth), but that in No Way meant that I do not pray for EVERYONE involved in this! I DO Pray for You, HisGrace, WhiteEagle and others. So again, Please do not ASSUME you know what is in my heart or what I do that you can not see.

Now I'm going back to my break. I'm sure others will address the other issues. [spiny]

Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :

BA, as to their salvation, as I have stated before, only Yeshua has the right to say "depart from me I never knew you." He is the judge of someones salvation, would you not agree?

But would you not also agree if these same preachers, preach that you are NOT saved if you do not believe that Yeshua's work was finished on the cross, but had to suffer spiritually in hell, that they are actually judging someones salvation? And take it one step further, their converts, or ones who are saved under their teaching might also believe this and say the same thing to others, and wouldn't that also make them judges over others salvation?

No one here has judged their salvation BA, but it would appear that they are setting themselves up as judges of other peoples salvation if those other people do not believe what they are teaching.

Jesus said on the cross "It is finished". God did not send Jesus to Hell so Jesus's Spirit could suffer yet again by the hands of the evil one. Victory was at the Cross, period.

And for some preacher to tell me I must believe that He (Jesus) suffered also in Hell for me to obtain my salvation is not only shameful but is also judgemental.

This is why one must be careful of the teaching they sit under.

For example, hypothetical:

Preacher so and so says that one must believe that Jesus the Christ had to suffer in hell spiritually for ones salvation and one must believe this or they are not truly saved.

Then Sister/brother so and so agrees and starts to tell others that they must believe this also for their salvation.

But Gods Spirit, Jesus's Spirit could not die "spiritually". If it could, there would have been no need for Jesus to be born of a woman into flesh to shed His blood for the remission of sins.

See, Kenneth Copeland teaches this. He said that God told him that "anyone" could have shed their blood. But it was the torment and spiritual death of Jesus in hell that saved us.

Yes, the "Finished" work of Jesus was on the cross, not in hell. We do not need to add anything further.

Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on :

quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:

But as long as they are still preaching that one must believe in the finished work of Jesus to be saved, which I think ALL of them adamantly and repeatedly still do, then they are still bornagain Christians who are saved by grace, and so are their followers.

They will NOT be disqualified from receiving eternal life for it, sister yahsway, or do you think they will?
[/QUOTE]

2 Peter 2:3
(3) and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

What do you say to this BA?

JUDGEMENT - DESTRUCTION:
DOESN'T sound like eternal LIFE does it? [Eek!]

Yahweh said it, not me [cool_shades]

Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :

sister yahsway writes

quote:
Jesus said on the cross "It is finished". God did not send Jesus to Hell so Jesus's Spirit could suffer yet again by the hands of the evil one. Victory was at the Cross, period.

Yes, victory was at the cross, period. No need to go to hell. I totally agree.

But people are foolish and failing; even bornagain Christians can be foolish and failing in some matters.

Ultimately, all Christians are responsible for working out their OWN salvation. Whatever sources Christians use to accomplish that, they do so with all the attendant risks, and we all have to make decisions about so and so as we go along over the years of studying and hearing.

But I don't think anyone is losing their salvation over it, unless they are exceedingly lazy and foolish and gullible.

God bless, BORN AGAIN

Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :

BA, did you see my post to you at the end of page one?

Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :

SoftTouch writes

quote:
BA, did you see my post to you at the end of page one?

yes, I saw your mean post at the bottom of page 1. I'm glad we have rolled over [Roll Eyes]

to page 2.

God bless, BORN AGAIN

Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:

quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:

quote:
I'm going on Vacation... God Bless all the Brethren who Stand Firm on HIS WORD and Defend its Integrity from the wiles of the False Teachers/Prophets! In Jesus Name, Amen!
And what about the other bornagain Christians, sister SoftTouch? Will you really only pray for the brothers and sisters who agree with you about the vailidity of this kind of "exposing false teaching" forum.
I have not left for vacation yet but I have been sitting on my hands trying not to post here as I needed a break.

BA you say HisGrace is sitting in disbelief of this forum, well I am now sitting in Disbelief of your posts.

You were admonished after your last attack on me and yet you totally ignored it. You brought false accusations against me (using scripture) and when it was shown by Sister Linda and others that you were Dead Wrong, you did not even so much as say "I'm Sorry." And now you continue with accusatory questions...

I may have said in my post that I would pray for the Brethern who stand up for God's Holy Word and Expose the Lies (as I wish to lift them up to the Lord for HIS Comfort and Strength in this ongoing battle for HIS Truth), but that in No Way meant that I do not pray for EVERYONE involved in this! I DO Pray for You, HisGrace, WhiteEagle and others. So again, Please do not ASSUME you know what is in my heart or what I do that you can not see.

Now I'm going back to my break. I'm sure others will address the other issues.

I have read and re-read my own words and I find nothing mean here. I have spoken the truth (except, apparently I have not gone back on my break as yet... but don't worry I'll be gone come Thursday night) and you have Yet to apologize for or even acknowledge that you have tried to harm my reputation by bearing false witness against me (rather it was intentional or not).

Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :

sister SoftTouch writes to BORN AGAIN

quote:
you have yet to apologize for or even acknowledge that you have tried to harm my reputation by bearing false witness against me (rather it was intentional or not).

sister, I did not think it would be long before you would repost your post from page 1 to page 2.

I have spoken out publicly about what I think about "exposing false teachers" within the church (no less).

You are one of the principals of this "exposing false teachers" forum, but I hardly think that my speaking out about "exposing false teachers" also means that it "harms your reputation". That's suffering from illusions of grandeur.

sister, you are loved by those who agree with you but not so loved (in this area of "exposing false teachers") by those who do not agree with you about "exposing false teachers in the church".

It's no big deal; you're just one of the principals of this forum, and you speak out frequently FOR and I speak out frequently AGAINST.

You imply with your scripture in the other Topic of the REAL HERESY:

quote:
Matthew 7:15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

that I, BORN AGAIN, must be a "wolf in sheep's clothing", but if that be the case, I haven't seen my wolf family in a long time. Perhaps I should miss them and go pay them a visit? Perhaps you know where they are all located since you know so much about them?

with love, BORN AGAIN in the USA [Cross]

Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :

Let us review what transpired. The thread was “Be Very Careful II” here in the exposing section. Page 1 http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=53;t=000113;p=1

quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
but, not to worry, sister SoftTouch, nobody here knows what you personally believe since you only post stuff about other people.

2 Thessalonians 3:11
For we hear that there are some who walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.

1 Timothy 5:13
And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.

1 Peter 4:15
But let none of you suffer as a murderer or as a thief or as an evildoer or as a busybody in other men's matters.

Matthew 7:3
And why do you look at the mote that is in your brother's eye, but do not consider the beam that is in your own eye?

God bless, BORN AGAIN

You stated that no one knows what I personally believe and you were Wrong (as witnessed by others).

The admonitions to you regarding the implication that I am a Busybody, Tattler, and walk disorderly working not at all are spoken on Page 2 of this thread. I concluded (as did others) that the Scriptures you quoted were directed at me. This was bearing False Witness against me and is an attempt (rather intentional or not) to do damage to my reputation.

Now in this particular thread ("Don't Be Deceived" [Wink]

I often mis-spell that word...) you have implied that I do not pray for anyone who does not agree with me and that is simply not true (as I have said).

quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
sister, you are loved by those who agree with you but not so loved (in this area of "exposing false teachers") by those who do not agree with you about "exposing false teachers in the church".

What is important is that the Scriptures agree with what I and the others say and do in regards to exposing false teachings/teachers/prophets. This has been shown many times. It doesn't matter to me (or to the Lord) who agrees with me or not, but rather if what I say and do is biblically solid.

quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
You imply with your scripture in the other Topic of the REAL HERESY:
quote:
Matthew 7:15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
that I, BORN AGAIN, must be a "wolf in sheep's clothing",

As for my quoting of Matthew 7 in the thread on Easter by BecauseHeLives, I was NOT saying that you are a Wolf. I quoted what I did to TRY (Once Again) to Show You In Scripture that we were told that Heresy would Come From Within The Church. It is true that there is MUCH Heresy without the Church, but that is not what Matthew 7 is talking about. I’m very sorry that you and others seem to refuse to see this as it’s important!

Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :

sister SoftTouch writes

quote:
What is important is that the Scriptures agree with what I and the others say and do in regards to exposing false teachings/teachers/prophets

of course the scriptures agree with you! what was I thinking!

SoftTouch writes

quote:
This was bearing False Witness against me and is an attempt (rather intentional or not) to do damage to my reputation.

It's called discussing issues, sister. By having the courage to post something, all of our reputations are "damaged" if you want to go to that extreme; do not console yourself by thinking that "your reputation" is somehow more damaged than that of anyone else around here. That is wishful thinking only. [angel3]

SoftTouch writes

quote:
I’m very sorry that you and others seem to refuse to see this as it’s important!

very sorry? that's what vacations are for. Refusing to see? try: disagreement with someone else's opinion. It happens all the time, sister; it's called life on earth.

have a nice vacation. will you be gone long? BORN AGAIN [Cross]

Posted by Pleasemaranatha (Member # 5150) on :

Do all (who worry about the heresy from within the church) pray earnestly for the ministers that they accuse???????????????

If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.

Bear with one another and, if anyone has a complaint against another, forgive each other; just as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.

John 20:23, Col 3:13 | Source: The Bible (New Revised Standard Version)

Spending more time on our knees would be what God wants. [thumbsup2]

First though, shouldn't we let go of our anger and forgive all the ministeries that we are upset with? [thumbsup2]

Doesn't God say that He won't forgive us, if we don't forgive others? [Confused]

Doesn't God say our prayers won't be answered if we are harboring unforgiveness? [Eek!]

Are we all praying enough for K.C., J.M., J.W., MORMONS, or B.H.?????

Or not? [Confused]

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

quote:
Doesn't God say that He won't forgive us, if we don't forgive others?

That is not speaking of forgiving ministers who are bringing false doctrine into the Body of Yeshua.

You need to understand you Scriptures

We are to pray for everyone including our enemies. Tyndale, Huss and other were burned at the stake for Truth, but they prayed for their enemies. Their crime defending the Truth.

The world excepts the teachings of Rick Warren and Joel Osteen….

Yeshua said if you preach the Truth the world will hate you, when will we grasp the Truth the crowd will never chose the way of the cross. Death to self.

The Rick Warren , Joel Osteen, Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Myers, Jessie Duplantus, Rod Parsley message is user friendly, tickle your ear messages the Scriptures call it. Puff up the flesh.

Romans 16:17 Now I beg you, brothers, look out for those
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Philippians 3:17 Brothers, be imitators together of me, and note
Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

Posted by David (Member # 1) on :

My bible says the below:

Luke 17:3 (KJV)
Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

1. First you are to rebuke him.
2. then IF HE REPENTS ---> forgive him.

When the false teachers repent, and start preaching about Jesus and not how to get rich, stop their self help seminars. Then I know for sure I will forgive them. But until they do, not even God will forgive them.

Don't you know when you come to know Jesus you are to repent and give your life to Him. Not start telling Him want you want and what to do. It is all about us following Jesus and serving Him. Not Jesus following us and do as we ask.

If you abide in Jesus you will have all you need. If you really digently seek Him and get to know Him you want even have to ask. He knows what you need and loves you more then you love him. So I suggest that you forget how much you can get and see how close you can get to Jesus. Then you will really be happy. Even if you get it all and don't know Jesus, you will not be happy.

King Solomon had it all and God gave it to Him. What did he do! He started worshiping OTHER gods. We are to want God more then what God can give us.

Satan wanted it ALL!!!! That should say alot.

Wake up and get to know Jesus and then you will have all you want, that is if you really want Jesus.

Posted by Pleasemaranatha (Member # 5150) on :

Yes David I know.

In my own life I believe that the value I place on God's forgiveness is best measured by my willingness to forgive everyone.

God Bless

Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :

quote:
Originally posted by David:
My bible says the below:

Luke 17:3 (KJV)
Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

1. First you are to rebuke him.
2. then IF HE REPENTS ---> forgive him.

When the false teachers repent, and start preaching about Jesus and not how to get rich, stop their self help seminars. Then I know for sure I will forgive them. But until they do, not even God will forgive them.

AMEN and AMEN Bro!

I have really been enjoying reading your posts lately - you have definitely been on a roll!!! I know your time is limited, but I'd love to read more!

God Bless! See ya when I return from vacation [Smile]

Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :

And AMEN To you too Bro Dale! You're preachin good too! [clap2]

Posted by Pleasemaranatha (Member # 5150) on :

Passage Proverbs 15:26:

26The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the LORD: but the words of the pure are pleasant words.

Passage Proverbs 3:34:

34 Surely he scoffeth at the scoffers; But he giveth grace unto the lowly.

Posted by David (Member # 1) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pleasemaranatha:
Passage Proverbs 15:26:

26The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the LORD: but the words of the pure are pleasant words.

Jesus say the below. Would you agree that he was pure. If so that means there is a time and place to say things that need saying. Even if the person they are directed to don't like them. Why would Jesus say the below? Because he LOVED them and wanted them to open their eyes. Tolerance is not love. If you let a blind man walk off a cliff and not try and stop him, that sure is not love.

Matthew 23:23-33

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :

quote:
Originally posted by David:
Tolerance is not love.

Romans 2:4 (NIV)
Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance

Romans 2:4(KJV)
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance

Forbearance - noun: good-natured tolerance of delay or incompetence

Posted by David (Member # 1) on :

tol·er·ant
Inclined to tolerate the beliefs, practices, or traits of others; forbearing. See Synonyms at broad-minded.

Jesus say I am the way the truth and the life and NO ONE comes to the Father but by me. We can not be tolerant and believe what Jesus said.

It all depends on what your are being tolerant about. I did not say you should never be tolerant, but that there are times when you should not be tolerant. Those that tolerate false gospel preaching are wrong. It looks to me (and was) and example in the above Matthew 23:23-33 where Jesus is not tolerant, please read it again.

Romans 2:1-4 (KJV)
1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

::::::::::::
Judgment is According to God’s Truth (2:1-5)

As the Jew read Paul’s indictment of the “heathen” in the first chapter, he must have smiled and said, “Serves them right!” Their attitude would have been that of the Pharisee in Luke 18:9-14—“I thank Thee that I am not as other men!” But Paul turns the Jew’s judgment of the Gentile right back upon him: “You do the same things the Gentiles do, so you are just as guilty!” God’s judgment of men is not according to hearsay, gossip, our own good opinions, or man’s evaluations; it is “according to truth” (v. 2). Someone has said, “We hate our own faults, especially when we see them in others.” How easy it is for people today, as in Paul’s day, to condemn others, yet have the very same sins in their own lives.

But the Jew may have argued back: “Surely God wouldn’t judge us with the same truth He applies to the Gentiles! Why, see how good God has been to Israel!” But they were ignorant of the purpose God had in mind when He poured out His goodness on Israel and waited so patiently for His people to obey: His goodness was supposed to lead them to repentance. Instead, they hardened their hearts and thus stored up more wrath for that day when Christ will judge the lost (Rev. 20). Have you not heard lost sinners today say, “Oh, I’m sure God isn’t going to send me to hell. Why, He’s done so many good things for me.” Little do they realize that God’s goodness is the preparation for His grace; and instead of bowing in humble gratitude, they harden their hearts and commit more sin, thinking that God loves them too much to condemn them.

These same two “excuses” that the Jews used in Paul’s day are still heard today: (1) “I am better than others, so I don’t need Christ”; (2) “God has been good to me and will certainly never condemn me.” But God’s final judgment will not be according to men’s opinions and evaluations; it will be according to truth.

Wiersbe's Expository Outlines on the New Testament
Author: Wiersbe, Warren W

Are you suggesting that Jesus did it wrong in Matthew 23:23-33?

Posted by Pleasemaranatha (Member # 5150) on :

Matthew 6:14
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Matthew 6:15
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

This by Moody
TODAY ALONG THE WAY
We learn a lot from today's passage about praying for nonbelievers. First, we can pray for the Spirit to reveal an unsaved person's lost condition to him or her. Then we can pray for a troubled conscience concerning unbelief and a realization that one's own righteousness can never please God. We can also pray that this individual will realize the truth about judgment and personal accountability. Finally, we can pray that the Spirit's conviction will lead to faith in Christ.

Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :

quote:
Originally posted by David:
Are you suggesting that Jesus did it wrong in Matthew 23:23-33?[/b]

Are you suggesting that the Bible is contradictory?

Romans 2:4(KJV)
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance.

There are scriptures in the OT where we see that God's patience runs out, but he is very longsuffering.

Let's read further down into Matthew 23. There is a longing heart shown in this passage.

Vrs 37-39 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Posted by ToBeContinued (Member # 4639) on :

[Eek!]

YOUR bible ALSO says this -

Matthew 6:14-15 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Posted by David (Member # 1) on :

True!

IF THEY REPENT

I am sure to forgive. But if they continue teaching the FALSE gospel then they have not repented.

"Tolerance is a virtue of a man without convictions" - G.K. Chesterton

Posted by David (Member # 1) on :

>>> Are you suggesting that the Bible is contradictory?

No I am not, are you?

I am saying that you need to read the whole bible and not just the parts you want.

We are to be forgiving people, but we should not just sit by and let people plung into hell because we just set by (acting to to be loving, only applying love to those that agree with us) and say nothing to them.

You can not forgive someone that does not ask to be forgiven.

If you are suggesting that everyone is going to heaven because they are all forgiven then you are deceptive and will cause people to go to HELL. And their blood will be on your hands.

The forgiveness that is in Jesus Christ is conditional upon "repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 20:21). It is a gift that God offers to everyone, but individuals must receive it by repenting and trusting in Christ, or they will remain dead in their sins. No one has biblical grounds to continue in sin, assuming that they are safe just because Jesus died on the cross.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. - John 3:4–6

"In the new man-centered view of God, love is the first and foremost attribute of God. It is primary. “God isn’t mad at you. He loves you with an unconditional love, and He longs to help you and to meet your needs” is the substance of much of the preaching today, particularly much of the evangelism these days. But, it is a love out of context."

Posted by Pleasemaranatha (Member # 5150) on :

But then David, how did I forgive people who never repented?

God showed me that HE is God and that I had to forgive them because we battle not with flesh and blood!

Posted by David (Member # 1) on :

I am not talking about people that don't claim to be Christians. As they don't know any better.

I am refering to those who claim to be followers of Jesus Christ.

If what you think God tells you is against what He gave us in His word the Bible. Then you are not hearing it from God.

Read the Bible.

Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :

quote:
Originally posted by David:
You can not forgive someone that does not ask to be forgiven.
If you are suggesting that everyone is going to heaven because they are all forgiven then you are deceptive and will cause people to go to HELL. And their blood will be on your hands.

Where on earth did you get that idea?? One of my favourite passages, which I have frequently quoted, is Romans 10:9,10 - For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.

~This scripture makes it crystal clear that we have to ask and I believe that with my whole heart. I have always stressed on this board that we have to be born again, and I wouldn't listen to preachers who say otherwise.

I am trying to show that we all can't be Ray Comforts. Everyone has an anointing in different areas. Does Ray Comfort's preaching help the poor woman with four kids, whose child husband just ran off with another woman? I am not saying that Ray Comfort shouldn't preach like that; he has own unique anointing. All preachers have their own God-appointed anointings, each to meet a different need in every area of our lives.

We can't be clones of each other. God wants us to come together as a one, because we are all different parts, but one body. The foot can't say, "I want to be the one to put the laundry in the washing machine to-day." No, that's not its function.

I certainly am not afraid of the cross. I have been there many times. I often listen to sermons by Charles Stanley and the late Adrian Rogers, who really preach on where the rubber hits the road.

Last Sunday Dr Stanley preached a sermon titled 'The Cross: Where the Wrath of God and The Love of God Meet.' God hates sin, but he left His wrath back in the OT, through the cross. We now have the REDEEMING LOVE of Jesus. You can get his sermon online at intouch.org.

It's all about showing compassion through emulating the Love of Jesus -
What about the adulterous woman at the well? Jesus exchanged pleasantries with her and didn't condemn her. All he says is "Go and sin no more."

Posted by Pleasemaranatha (Member # 5150) on :

Dear David,

Thanks very much for your concern.

You wrote this:
I am not talking about people that don't claim to be Christians. As they don't know any better.

I am refering to those who claim to be followers of Jesus Christ.

If what you think God tells you is against what He gave us in His word the Bible. Then you are not hearing it from God.

Read the Bible.

I was talking about people that sinned against me in my past. I couldn't look into their hearts, as God, to know where they stood with God at the time I needed to repent of my anger.

I do read my bible and study everyday...so please be at peace. [Smile]

In Love,

Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :

David writes

quote:
I am saying that you need to read the whole bible and not just the parts you want.

I know that Unitarians and New Agers think that only the NT is a book of love and they don't read the OT which they consider a book of war, but are you suggesting that there are Christians participating on this CBBS who have never read certain books of the Bible? I seriously doubt that. [Bible]

Some Christians after first becoming Christians may initially skip or skim through a book like Leviticus, but as time goes on all the books get read, I would say.

God bless, BORN AGAIN

Posted by Pleasemaranatha (Member # 5150) on :

Dear David,

you wrote:
If you are suggesting that everyone is going to heaven because they are all forgiven then you are deceptive and will cause people to go to HELL. And their blood will be on your hands.

this is me writing back to you:
I have forgiven everyone that ever sinned against God or hurt me. God wanted me to forgive them. Not to let them off the hook, but to let myself off the hook of being in sin; by NOT forgiving them.

Since God has forgiven me HOW can I NOT forgive? [Confused]

It isn't my job to harbor ill feelings or preach to them 24/7. Besides, some of them lived far away or were dead already. Everyone I forgive doesn't always live ONLY in my home. Some do though, and then it is harder, but I obey with God's help.

In my case, it is God's place to do what HE wants to get someone to recognize their sins and need for HIM. I just have to turn it all over to HIM. He always tell me not to worry, be anxious, or fret. I have to LET HIM BE GOD cause I am NOT God. He is all powerful, all knowing, all seeing, all everything times a zillion trillion times more. I trust HIM to do whatever is necessary for HIS will to be done.

I am just His child. [hyper]

No person's blood is on my hands....ok?

Love you and hope God blesses you greatly! [Smile]

Posted by David (Member # 1) on :

I said:

If you are suggesting that everyone is going to heaven because they are all forgiven then you are deceptive and will cause people to go to HELL. And their blood will be on your hands.

That is what I said.

Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :

quote:
Originally posted by David:
I said:

If you are suggesting that everyone is going to heaven because they are all forgiven then you are deceptive and will cause people to go to HELL. And their blood will be on your hands.

That is what I said.

I can't figure out who you would be referring to on this board, but I for one have made it very clear that I am not suggesting that. I'm sure Joyce would agree.

Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :

I'm confident that sister Pleasemaranatha only meant that ALL people who have accepted Christ are forgiven and will go to heaven. She is not speaking of the general public who have NOT made a decision for Christ. Why would she? She knows what it means to be a bornagain child of God.

God bless, BORN AGAIN

Posted by Pleasemaranatha (Member # 5150) on :

I can't figure out who you would be referring to on this board, but I for one have made it very clear that I am not suggesting that. I'm sure Joyce would agree.

--------------------
WWJTHINK

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Posts: 3726 | From: Canada | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged |

BORN AGAIN

Advanced Member
Member # 5

posted April 14, 2006 10:43 PM
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I'm confident that sister Pleasemaranatha only meant that ALL people who have accepted Christ are forgiven and will go to heaven. She is not speaking of the general public who have NOT made a decision for Christ. Why would she? She knows what it means to be a bornagain child of God.

God bless, BORN AGAIN

Joyce writing now: [Smile]

Thanks, HisGrace and Born Again for posting.

Maybe, I wasn't clear enough writing to David.
Sorry, that he didn't understand me. [Frown]

I never want to make another to stumble by not being clear on an issue so important.

God Bless and good nite to everyone. It is really late here and I am tired. [hug]

Posted by ToBeContinued (Member # 4639) on :

quote:
David writes -
You can not forgive someone that does not ask to be forgiven.

So you are suggesting that Jesus did not forgive, nor teach to forgive, anyone UNLESS they ASKED for it first?

Sorry - That is deceptive.

Matthew 6:14-15

For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; but if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Unless we forgive those who haves harmed us, who have sinned against us, God will not forgive us.

1) We must forgive to be forgiven.
Jesus says it in a number of places:
in Matthew 7:2
For in the same way as you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

in Matthew 18:35
``This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.’’(to be handed over to the torturers)

in Mark 11:25
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.’’

Paul says it in Colossians 3:13
Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.

James says it in James 2:13
because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

It covers the New Testament. If we do not forgive those who harm us, God will not forgive us!

You can't quote the one verse that applies to IF HE REPENT without using THE REST of the bible.

The WHOLE Word applies -

Are you saying that Jesus changed his mind? Or that when Jesus said 70 times 7 he was referring ONLY to those who have ASKED for forgiveness?

I don't see that in my bible........

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

Does one forgive the murderer and stand aside and allow them to continue to murder?

Does one forgive the thief and stand aside and allow them to continue to steal?

Does one forgive the liar and then continue to allow their lies to go unchallenged?

Certainly we can forgive the iniquity of the false teachers, but we cannot stand aside and allow them to wrest scripture and preach deception unchallenged.

Certainly we forgive any deceivers who blindly support false prophets, but we cannot let your apologetics lead others astray.

Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :

Tobecontinued: I agree with your post on forgiveness.

We are to forgive all, even if they never ask for our forgiveness. And that's they hard part, isn't it?

We are commanded to go to the person who has hurt us and talk with them first before we can present our gift to the altar. Attempt reconcilation. But if they don't agree we are to take 2 or 3 as a witness. But we are still commanded to forgive all offenses. God will be the judge.

Once we forgive and the other person isn't able or willing to change their behavior toward us, we are not commanded to TRUST them. We can forgive, but that doesn't mean we have to trust them or continue any relationship with them.

Example a child sexually abused can forgive her abuser, but that child certainly should not have to be around that abuser any longer.

Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Does one forgive the murderer and stand aside and allow them to continue to murder?

Does one forgive the thief and stand aside and allow them to continue to steal?

Does one forgive the liar and then continue to allow their lies to go unchallenged?

We can't control people with our thoughts. Just because we dont' forgive someone for murdering, that doesn't mean that they will never murder again; just because we don't forgive someone for stealing, that doesn't mean that they will never steal again.

If we have the heart of Jesus, we will have no problem forgiving.

Posted by David (Member # 1) on :

>>> You can not forgive someone that does not ask to be forgiven.

This statement did not come out right. Please forgive me, I repent. I did not mean it like it sounded. I do say things, thinking that others know what I mean. My mistake.

I really did not mean that you should not forgive someone if they don't ask. You should forgive them and in love rebuke them. Never endorse their sin. We should always in love bring it to the light.

I mean the person that does not ask to be forgiven, is steal guilty of the offence to God until they repent of it. So even if you forgive them their sin is not forgive by God. If they are a born-again child of God they will repent, as the Holy Spirit will not let them continue in the sin. If they are not born-again they will continue in the sin and it will not bother them. You can tell by their fruits if they have repented, the will not continue in the sin.

Posted by David (Member # 1) on :

>>> If we have the heart of Jesus, we will have no problem forgiving.

Neither will we have a problem rebuking them and letting them know that they are sinning against God not us. I am talking about people that claim to be born-again believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. Mostly those that are teaching a false gospel. But it applies to other things also.

It seems that whenever one person confronts another person over an issue, the statement "Do not judge!" comes up. Christians are often accused of "judging" in contradiction to what the Bible says whenever they speak out against a sinful activity. However, that is not the meaning of the Scripture verses which state, "Do not judge." When Jesus told us not to judge (Matthew 7:1), He was telling us not to judge hypocritically. Matthew 7:2-5 declares, "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, Let me take the speck out of your eye when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

In Matthew 7:2-5, Jesus warns against judging someone else for their sin when you yourself are sinning even worse. That is the kind of judging Jesus commanded us not to do. If a believer sees another believer sinning, it is their Christian duty to lovingly and respectfully confront the person with their sin (Matthew 18:15-17). This is not judging, but rather pointing out the truth in hope of bringing repentance in the other person (James 5:20). We are to speak the truth in love (Ephesians 4:15). We are to proclaim what God's Word says about sin. 2 Timothy 4:2 instructs us, "Preach the Word ; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage — with great patience and careful instruction." We are to "judge" sin, but always with the goal of presenting the solution for sin and its consequences - the Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:6).

Posted by David (Member # 1) on :

Quote by Me -> David
>>> If you are suggesting that everyone is going to heaven because they are all forgiven then you are deceptive and will cause people to go to HELL. And their blood will be on your hands.

Meaning if you condone the false gospel preachers and it causes someone to be mislead because they have done the things they are taught by the false prophet. Such as send me $1000.00 and you will get 10 fold (this is just an example there are many). The person sends in the $1000.00 gets nothing back and then because they believe the false prophet to be from God, then turn from God and may never be born-again. Yes you have had a part of this, if you do not teach people the truth, especially if you are promoting a false gospel.

Posted by David (Member # 1) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Does one forgive the murderer and stand aside and allow them to continue to murder?

Does one forgive the thief and stand aside and allow them to continue to steal?

Does one forgive the liar and then continue to allow their lies to go unchallenged?

Certainly we can forgive the iniquity of the false teachers, but we cannot stand aside and allow them to wrest scripture and preach deception unchallenged.

Certainly we forgive any deceivers who blindly support false prophets, but we cannot let your apologetics lead others astray.

Amen!

Posted by David (Member # 1) on :

>>> Do all (who worry about the heresy from within the church) pray earnestly for the ministers that they accuse???????????????

Yes you are correct. We need to be in prayer for them. But we are not to lead others to them nor condone what they are doing.

Pray they repent and turn to God before it is to late.

2 Peter 2:1 through 2 Peter 2:17 (NIV)
1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,£ putting them into gloomy dungeons£ to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)—9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.£ 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature£ and despise authority.
Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; 11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. 12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.£ 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—a beast without speech—who spoke with a man’s voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

(surely we don't have to wait until God has to use a donkey, we should do as the bible tells us and rebuke them. May God never have to use a donkey because we don't want to do ask He asks. Remember we are here to server God, not God serve us. We will have to do things we don't like to in love for those that are hanging over hell, let's do our best to pull them back from the flames.)

1 John 4:1 (NIV)
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

Amen David!!!!!!

We are to forgive all.

The murderer, the thief, the child abuser, the liar, the false prophets, the deceivers who blindly defend WOF/Positive Confession, but we are NOT to stand by and allow crimes/deceptions to continue un-adressed.

Our most fervent prayer is that the eyes of the blind will be opened and the shackels of deception be broken, and the deceived who so blindly defend such as Benny Hinn will repent and turn to God's Truth. May the false prophets of WOF/Positive Confession repent of their heresy.

Posted by J4Jesus (Member # 1367) on :

what?

why do ya'll get excited over other's preaching?

Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :

Matthew 21:16
And said to Him, Do you hear what these say? Then Jesus said to them, Yes; have you never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings You have perfected praise?

happy Passover of Christ, brother J4Jesus:

"Father, I bring young brother J4Jesus before You; Father, I ask you that since Jesus already died, that You will protect J4Jesus in his household and that he may eat at Your table even while he is in his own house."

"Let J4Jesus have victory in his home, and give J4Jesus some good bait to fish his family with, Lord God Yeshua-Jesus. Lord, give us wisdom."

James 1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God who gives to all men liberally, and does not upbraid us; and it shall be given him.

Bless the LORD God of Israel; only He is the Creator of heaven and earth.

Thanks to U, I am BORN AGAIN in the USA by the [Cross]

of Lord God Yeshua-Jesus

Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :

quote:
Originally posted by David:
>>> You can not forgive someone that does not ask to be forgiven.

This statement did not come out right. Please forgive me, I repent. I did not mean it like it sounded. I do say things, thinking that others know what I mean. My mistake.

I really did not mean that you should not forgive someone if they don't ask. You should forgive them and in love rebuke them. Never endorse their sin. We should always in love bring it to the light.

I mean the person that does not ask to be forgiven, is steal guilty of the offence to God until they repent of it. So even if you forgive them their sin is not forgive by God. If they are a born-again child of God they will repent, as the Holy Spirit will not let them continue in the sin. If they are not born-again they will continue in the sin and it will not bother them. You can tell by their fruits if they have repented, the will not continue in the sin.

Amen! Thanks for clarifying that. I agree! [clap2]