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Should a Christian Celebrate Christmas?

There is no Biblical warrant, precedent, nor precept for remembrance of the day of Christ's birth as a day of special religious celebration. This is not to say that we shouldn't remember Christ's birth and its significance, but for religious commemorations or celebrations, we must have Biblical command or precedent! The fact of the matter is this -- the early church did not celebrate Christ's birth, but such celebration only came into the church with the "Christianization" of pagan rites as Catholicism was made the state religion by Constantine in the fourth century A.D. Since the Word of God does not support the tradition of Christmas, a Christian's conscience ought not and must not be bound.

The following outline describes the origin of Christmas (with its associated pagan customs, symbols, and terminology), details the Scriptural support against celebrating Christmas, attempts to show that celebrating Christmas violates the spirit of every one of the ten commandments, attempts to demonstrate that celebrating Christmas does not fall in the realm of Christian liberty, and attempts to debunk eight of the major rationalizations Christians put forth for celebrating Christmas.

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Originally posted by Caretaker:
God bless your stand for the truth, Sister Hardcore.
Not many will receive it.

It is difficult to shake-off the traditions invented by man, and to seek the truth of God, devoid of baggage.

...It is difficult to remove 50 years of tradition overnight. I hope and pray that one day I to can practice what is in my heart, that Christmas and Easter are pagan cloaked in the sacred, and that the truth is to be found in the Feast of Tabernacles when God tabernacled with man, and that Christ is our Passover Lamb, far removed from the Easter Bunny.

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Amen my Brother Drew and Sister Hardcore! I'm finding it all too difficult to shake off as well - but the Lord Knows How Much I Want To! I too have Family/Friends who don't understand the truth, and now, being in a Fundamental Baptist Church... I Know they won't accept it But in my heart I Know the Truth - and the Lord Knows how I struggle with this!

At least (Thank The Lord!) my "Immediate Family" (Ian and Steven) know the Truth and we will Not have a tree, or decorations, or other junk in our house. One day (as Brother Drew said) we will be Free from all this "Baggage" that cluttering things up!
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
I do not consider honoring Jesus' birth as baggage.
I do not condem anyone for not honoring Jesus' birth but I do resent others condeming me for doing so.
betty
 

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
Sister Betty

Please know that None of us (Hardcore, Drew, or myself) are in Any Way condemning you or anyone else who celebrates Christmas. It's just that we've done the research and this is the conviction that's been placed on "Our" hearts. It's our own conviction (individually) and not a conviction of anyone else (did that make sense?). Even though we share the info we've found so others can see what we see, that in No Way means we're condemning you or anyone else I would Never do that! (Neither would Drew or Hardcore - I feel certain that I can speak on their behalf on this issue )

Sis, I think you know us better then that
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
I hope not. Last year, I was made to feel very uncomfortable this time of year around here for celeberating Christmas. I do not plan to go through that again. Christmas is a wonderful and happy time for my family. I love Christmas because it is a time that even the world starts to think about Jesus and His birth.
I will stay away from this site at this time of year, if I have to. But, I will not give up honoring my Lord and Savior and His birth.
betty
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
just a thought. Who keeps Christmas from being called "santamas"? Christians who keep reminding people over and over that Jesus is the reason for the season. For every Christian that does not celeberate Christmas, there is one less person who keeps Christmas about Jesus.
betty
 

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Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
Betty, I think the word Christ-mass or Christmas means Christ Death. Although it is a tradition of celebrating His Birth, why is it called Christ Mass? "santamas" hmm I have no problem with Santas death during this time of year. He draws too much attention away from the "reason for the season/Jesus"

I celebrate His birth every year at Succot(Feast of Tabernacles)He came and tabernacled among men.We sing the traditional songs such as Silent Night, ect.. but we celebrate His birth at a different time of year.

I respect everyones right to celebrate Christmas on Dec 25. It is both a secular as well as religous holiday and has always been both religous and secular. It would be nice if Christmas wasn't mixed with worldly stuff, but ever since I can remember there has always been a santa claus, rieendeer, frosty the snow man, wreaths and mistle toe, candy canes and many other numerous things that have nothing to do with the Birth of Jesus, but are mixed right in there with Him and we call it Christmas.

Christmas is a time when people of all walks of life make their own family traditions of how to celebrate it. May your Christmas be a blessed one for you and your family.
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
http://www.kidtokid.org/candycanestory.html
 

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Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
TG, nice try, but that is just a tradiitonal tale. The candy cane was around some 350 years ago, long before there was even an Indiana.

The first candy canes were white, sugar sticks. On Christmas cards printed before the 19th century, these canes were all white. It wasnt until around 1950 that the red color was put in them.

And then sometime after that the "legend" of the Christmas cane came into being. But this was never the origional intent of the invention of the Candy Cane. Just another tradition, howbeit a nice and heartwarming one at that.

It never had its origion in the Birth of Jesus.
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
If you are an honest, sincere and discerning Christian, please read

The True Meaning Of Christ-Mass

They tell us that it is the season to be jolly. It is a time of ornaments, red and green decorations, silver bells, holly, mistletoe and colored lights. It is also a time of department store Santas calling out their universal mantra, "Ho ho ho, Merry Christmas." Nearly all of the realm of so-called "Christianity" join in and repeat this same greeting, "Merry Christmas!"

Although we hear these words constantly as they resonate millions of times throughout the land, almost nobody understands what they are really saying. It is the purpose of this tract to take the words, "Merry Christmas" and examine the true meaning and essence of those words.

A true Christian would want to examine everything they say, because Jesus said in Matthew 12:36-37, "But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgement. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." We will now set aside all of the customs, glitter and traditions of Christmas, which were taken from pagan witchcraft and popularized by the Roman Catholic Church, and we will focus on the true meaning of the words, "Merry Christmas!"

The word "Merry" is simple to define. It unquestionably means to be happy, joyful and light-hearted. The word "merry" fits into the ambience of laughter and frivolity. This word "merry" by itself is innocent and innocuous enough, but as we will now see, it becomes heinously blasphemous when used with the word "Christmas."

Here let it be noted that most people think that the word, "Christmas" means "the birth of Christ." By definition, it means "death of Christ", and I will prove it by using the World Book Encyclopedia, the Catholic Encyclopedia, and a book entitled, The Mass In Slow Motion.

If you are an honest, sincere and discerning Christian, please read on; if not, you might as well stop right here. The World Book Encyclopedia defines "Christmas" as follows: "The word Christmas comes from "Cristes Maesse", an early English phrase that means "Mass of Christ." (1) It is interesting to note that the word "Mass", as used by the Roman Catholics, has traditionally been rejected by the so-called Protestants, such as Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Pentecostals and so on. The word "Mass" is strictly a Catholic word and thus, so is "Christ-Mass."

It would stand to reason, that since all of these denominations love and embrace "Christ-Mass", that December 25th is the great homecoming day, when all of the Protestants become Catholic for a day. It would seem that all of the so-called "wayward daughters" of the Romish church return to their mother, the scarlet harlot. Thus, all of the so-called Protestant churches could sing to the Pope that popular song "I'll be home for Christmas."

As previously stated, the word "Mass" in religious usage means a "death sacrifice." The impact of this fact is horrifying and shocking; for when the millions of people are saying, "Merry Christmas", they are literally saying "Merry death of Christ!" Furthermore, when the fat man in the red suit laughs boisterously and says, "Ho ho ho, Merry Christmas", he is mocking and laughing at the suffering and bleeding Saviour, who died for our sins. He does this while parents place their little children into his waiting arms to hear his false promises of gifts that he says he will give them. Consider what you are saying when you say "Merry Christmas."

What is so amusing about our Saviour's painful death? What is so funny? Why is Santa laughing? Why are you going along with it? Your words do count and Satan knows it. Yes, the word "Mass" does mean "death sacrifice", and to cement that fact, we will consider the definition of the inventors of the religious application of the word "Mass." I am looking at page 537 of the Catholic Encyclopedia, which says, "In the Christian law, the supreme sacrifice is that of the Mass." It goes on to say, "The supreme act of worship consists essentially in an offering of a worthy victim to God, the offering made by a proper person, as a priest, the destruction of the victim." (2) Please note carefully the word, "victim" of the Mass. The Latin word for victim is "Hostia" from which the word "host" is derived. The Mass, by definition of those who coined the word, is a sacrifice involving a victim. There is no other meaning for the word "Mass" or "Christ-Mass." On page 110 of a book entitled "The Mass In Slow Motion", we find the following words: "It is only with the consecration that the sacrifice of the Mass is achieved. I have represented the Mass to you, more than once, as a kind of ritual dance." (3)

In essence, the Mass is the ceremonial slaying of Jesus Christ over and over again, followed by the eating of his flesh and the drinking of his blood. The Mass is the death sacrifice, and the "Host" is the victim. This is official Roman Catholic doctrine, and "Christmas" is a word that they invented. Again, I ask, what is so merry about the pain, bleeding, suffering and death of Jesus Christ? Satan has done quite a job of getting millions of so-called "Christians" to blaspheme. What a deceiver he is.

Now you know the true meaning of the word "Christmas" or Mass of Christ. There is much more to know about this pagan holiday, and we will be glad to provide you with plenty of evidence that Jesus was not born on December 25th, and that Christmas is not only a lie, but is actually a witches' sabbat called "Yule" in clever disguise. Please contact us at the address below, and for the sake of your soul, flee from idolatry!

David J. Meyer


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Acknowledgements:
01. World Book Encyclopedia, vol.3, p. 408, 1986 ed., World Book Inc., Chicago, IL

02. The Catholic Encyclopedia, R.C. Broderick, 1975 ed., Nihil Obstat, Richard J. Sklba, Censor Librorum. Imprimatur, Archbishop William E. Cousins, Milwaukee, WI.

03. The Mass In Slow Motion, Ronald Knox, 1948, Sheed & Ward, Inc., New York, NY. Nihil Obstat, E.C. Messenger, Censor Deputatus. Imprimatur, E. Morrogh Bernard, Vic. Gen.

Last Trumpet Ministries International
PO Box 806
Beaver Dam, WI 53916

http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract4.html
 

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Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 
I'm with you on this one Texas Grandma!

You bunch o' grinches! And Scrooges!

Joy to the World, our God has Come, let earth receive her King!

Let every heart declare Him room and Heaven and nature sing.


Bless and have a Merry Christmas!

Between religious critcs and the ACLU, you guys will Ban Christmas yet.
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 

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Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
I'm with you on this one Texas Grandma!

You bunch o' grinches! And Scrooges!

Joy to the World, our God has Come, let earth receive her King!

Let every heart declare Him room and Heaven and nature sing.


Bless and have a Merry Christmas!

Between religious critcs and the ACLU, you guys will Ban Christmas yet.

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BOTH Christmas and Hannukkah are man-made traditions

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Hannukka is found in Scripture and I am still waiting for a source for Crist-mass found in Scripture Bettie or Grandmajo are anyone else that practices Christ-mass

Jesus "Yeshua" Jhn 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.


Hanukkah


Dictionary
Ha·nuk·kah or Ha·nu·kah also Cha·nu·kah (KHä'nə-kə, hä'-)

n. Judaism.

An eight-day festival beginning on the 25th day of Kislev, commemorating the victory in 165 B.C. of the Maccabees over Antiochus Epiphanes (c. 215–164 B.C.) and the rededication of the Temple at Jerusalem. Also called Feast of Dedication, Feast of Lights.

[Hebrew ḥănukkâ, dedication, from ḥānak, to train, dedicate.]

http://www.answers.com/topic/hanukkah

I have said it before and I will say it again. "once saved always saved" is the most damnable doctrine as believed by most of the Church???

2Th 2:7-12
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

[Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Some love their tradition more than the truth,

to stand for truth will always cost you something (family, friends, position, comfort)

Mar 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes [shall be] they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

to not stand for truth will aso cost you something (it will cost you Eternal Life)

read the scriptures in Ezekiel 33 closely, prayerfully maybe your eyes will be open beore it is to late
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
First Christmas celeberation:

Wise Men from the East
2Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, 2 saying, "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him."
3 When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. 4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born.
5 So they said to him, "In Bethlehem of Judea, for thus it is written by the prophet:

6 'But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,
Are not the least among the rulers of Judah;
For out of you shall come a Ruler
Who will shepherd My people Israel.'"*

7 Then Herod, when he had secretly called the wise men, determined from them what time the star appeared. 8 And he sent them to Bethlehem and said, "Go and search carefully for the young Child, and when you have found Him, bring back word to me, that I may come and worship Him also."
9 When they heard the king, they departed; and behold, the star which they had seen in the East went before them, till it came and stood over where the young Child was. 10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceedingly great joy. 11 And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him. And when they had opened their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold, frankincense, and myrrh.
12 Then, being divinely warned in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed for their own country another way.
 

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Posted by shadowmaker (Member # 3696) on :
 
Doesnt it say somewhere in the Bible that if you do something to glorify God, its pleasing to him?

WHO cares what the pagans did? So what if they burned candles and chanted? I m not doing it, I m celebrated the birth of my Lord and Savior. So what if its the wrong day.

I agree with some of you, DOWN WITH THE SCROOGES!!!!! LOL.

Its not like you are worshipping the lights, the tree, or Santa.

If you dont want to celebrate it, then dont. But dont tell me how I m wrong and I need to know the "true" pagan activities, etc etc.

The pagans probably wrote in books too but that doesnt mean I shouldnt read books.

And before someone gets upset, no I m not mad or flaming anyone.

Brad
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Betty, the record of Yeshua's birth and the wise men seeking Him out, serve to more convince the honest truth seeker that December the 25th can not possible be the time of Yeshua's earthly visit a a baby. (the shepards can't tend the flocks in the fields in Bethelehem in December, now or then!)

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shadowmaker
Doesnt it say somewhere in the Bible that if you do something to glorify God, its pleasing to him?

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You can't disobey Yahweh's Word, justify joining pagan holy days and call it worship. Yahweh disires obedience not sacrifice.

(It did not work for Israel, and it want work for anyone today.

Scriptural Support Against Celebrating Christmas -- Unacceptable Worship

A. 2 Chron. 33:15-17 -- The Israelites had kept the old pagan form (the high places of Baal), but had merely introduced the worship of God into that form -- a refusal to let go of pagan worship forms (i.e., God was to be worshiped in the Temple, not on the high places). This was unacceptable worship because the right object of worship was mixed with wrong forms of worship; i.e., the mixing of godly worship with ungodly form. Likewise, is not the celebration of Christmas the taking of a celebration established by pagans and for pagans, and then introducing the worship of Christ into that pagan form?

B. Deut. 12:29-32 -- God warned His people Israel to destroy all vestiges of pagan worship that they found in the "Promised Land." Not only did God want to prevent His people from being enticed to worship false gods, but He also specifically revealed that He did not want His people to worship Him in the same manner in which the heathen worshiped their gods. We know, therefore, that our Lord is displeased by practices which profess to honor Him, but which are copied from the tradition of false religions. The command here was to worship God only in His way, i.e., do only what God commands -- not adding to God's commands nor taking away from them. Therefore, is not "putting Christ back into Christmas," worshiping "the Lord your God their way"? Is there any command in the Bible to give special reverence to the Scriptural account of Christ's birth more so than to any other Scripture, let alone even a suggestion to celebrate or commemorate His birth in any way whatsoever? God never intended for His people to be imitators of the pagan customs of the world, but has called us to be separate and set apart.

C. Lev. 10:1,2 -- Nadab and Abihu offered strange fire to the Lord. Is not the celebration of Christmas, with all its pagan symbols and forms, a "strange fire" unto the Lord, and is not this form of worship contrary to what God commands?

D. 1 Sam. 15:1-3, 7-9, 21-23 -- Saul disobeyed God's prophet in order to worship God in his way. Is not the celebration of Christmas one of man's ways of worshiping Christ? There is certainly no Biblical command to offer worship in this manner.

E. 2 Sam. 6:2-7 -- David attempts to transport the ark on a "new cart" instead of using the rings and poles as the Law required (Exo. 25:12-15). Additionally, the "transporters" of the ark were not even authorized to carry it (1 Chron. 15:2, 13-15); i.e., the ark was not only transported in the wrong way, but was transported by the wrong people! Is not the celebration of Christmas the wrong way (pagan forms and tradition) with the wrong people (the heathen of the world join right in with the professing Christians)?

F. 1 Ki. 12:26-33 -- In order to unify the northern ten tribes of Israel, ungodly King Jeroboam set up pagan idols, not in place of God, but as new focal points for directing worship to God. He even instituted a new festival on a new day; i.e., a new religious holiday of his own choosing. Even though the true God of Israel was still to be the object of worship in the new religious holiday, both the holiday and the worship were not authorized by God nor accepted by Him (1 Ki. 13:1-3; 15:29,30). Why? Because the concocted mixture of error with truth constituted false religion! Likewise, is not the celebration of Christmas a religious holiday of man's own choosing, replete with pagan symbols and forms, all under the guise (by sincere Christians at least) of worshiping the one true God and Savior? But does not this worship form and system still constitute false religion, and thereby, make it unacceptable to God? And besides, where in the Bible do Christians have the right to add a new holy day to the so-called Christian calendar, any more than King Jeroboam had the right to add a new holy day to God's theocratic calendar?

G. 1 Cor. 8:4-13; Rom. 14:1-13; 1 Cor. 10:14, 18-21 -- These passages concerning Christian liberty are discussed in more detail under Roman numeral IV. [Christian liberty can best be defined Biblically as "the freedom to engage in practices not prohibited by the Scriptures or denying oneself what is permitted (i.e., a moral choice of self-discipline) in order to be a more effective witness for God." So the question must first be answered, "Is Christmas permitted?"] Briefly, some claim that Paul is teaching that the participation in pagan forms condemns no one, and therefore, participation in Christmas and its forms, even though arising out of pagan idolatry, is inconsequential. However, Paul nowhere approves participation in acts of idolatry, of which the participation in the pagan forms of Christmas comes dangerously close to doing. Instead, Paul is speaking of the liberty to continue in Jewish days of worship/festival that had been previously ordained under the Jewish law. There is certainly no liberty to bring outside pagan forms into the church's worship services. Likewise, there is no liberty to Christianize Babylonian/Roman pagan holy days as special days.

Christians in the first century churches had the liberty to observe Old Testament holy days and feasts (days that had previously been revealed by God) if they were so immature as to do so. The weaker brother, Paul wrote, was at that time not to be censured for continuing to attach some importance to the Old Testament holy days, as a clear knowledge of their abolition in Christ was not yet given to him (the weaker brother). But to observe a pagan holy day is something this passage does not sanction. They certainly did not have the liberty to regard Babylonian/Roman pagan holy days (days that were invented by the devil) as special days. Again, that would have been idolatry, worldliness, and perhaps even a form of Satan worship on their part. Therefore, how can the observance of Christmas Day, or any other Babylonian/Roman Catholic holy day, be a matter of Christian liberty?

Yet when some of us refuse to regard the pagan holy days as special days, we are the ones often referred to as the "weaker brother" in this matter! Are we opposed to such days because we are "weak in faith"? Faith would be defined as believing what the Word of God says about a matter and acting upon it. It was by faith that we stopped regarding pagan holy days as special days. Would we be more mature Christians if we would start regarding such days again? It would certainly be much easier on our families and us.
 

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Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
becauseHelives,

I agree with most all of your posts. My intention was to show that even Hannukah was a celebration that man had ordained. Yes its true its origons are not paganistic, but it is not one of the 7 Feasts of the Lord that were to be perpetual/forever and was not a direct command from God to celebrate it. It also is a Tradition of men if you will. Shalom
 

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Posted by DaughterAnn (Member # 2055) on :
 
I have a question for those of you who dont celebrate christmas.

How do you deal with your families? I would assume that most of you grew up celebrating christmas. And I also assume that most of your families still do celebrate. So, how did you tell them that you would no longer celebrate? How do they take it, even now?

What conflict has it caused in your families (if any), and how do you deal with that conflict?

Thanks for your response. I know this is a touchy subject.
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
yahsway


Christmas was given to Christians, Yes, it has some pagan influences but it started out as a celebration to God of the wonderful gift that He gave us, (His Son) To imply that Christians are not right with God if they celebrate His Birth is not right.
It has been said here last year that our calendar has pagan influences but I dare say that every one of you uses a Calendar. I dare say that many of our day to day life chores are influenced by pagan history. I don’t see that as wrong. Mankind many times learns from each other and is possible to take some good things from others and form them into your life with out becoming apart of the bad thing. Even what we eat, we have adapted from recipes from other cultures.

The truth is many Churches celebrate Christmas and have for hundreds of years. It is a time when not only Christians draw closer to God, but there are many who only come to Church on Christmas, which Churches seek to reach out to. I have no issues with those who don’t celebrate Christmas, but I refuse to allow others contemn us who do make a special effort to keep Jesus in Christmas. If all Christians were to bow out of Christmas then it would indeed become Santa Day. I will fight with all I can to make Christmas about Jesus. I will remind everyone that says “Happy Holiday, which Christmas is about Jesus.

There is nothing wrong with having different opinions about Christmas, the problem is when people put themselves on a pedestal because they don’t celebrate Christmas. Just remember when you are sitting high and above the rest of us, that Muslims don’t celebrate Christmas either.

Paul says not to allow others condemn you over celebrations of days. I think it is a hypocrite, who cannot give a day of celebration of Jesus’ birth by celebrates their own birthday or families. At least the Jehovah Witness are honest about it and celebrates no birthdays. Not that I want to be a part of that group. All over the world Churches or celebrating the gift of Jesus birth and yet a few people who think they know more than the rest of us, or at least they think they do, seek to destroy Christmas for all Christians.
Personally, I lost respect for these few, when it was said that many are called and few are saved. To question another Christian’s salvation just because they honor their Savior by celebrating His birth is wrong and God will hold you accountable.
Betty

DaughterAnn †

I can not tell you to celebrate are not celebrate. Unlike others, I do not feel that it is my responsibility to tell you how to celebrate our Savior’s birth. But, I will tell you that if you choose to celebrate Jesus’ birth, you will be in a great number of Christians from around the world, who take time and effort to celebrate Jesus and His precious gift to us.
But, let me wish you a Merry Christmas, taking in mind that Merry means blessed.
Have a Blessed Christmas!!!!
betty
 

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Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
DaughterAnn, I grew up celebrating Christmas, the only difference was my Dad would not let us have a Christmas Tree because he said it had its origons in pagan worship.

But we still had the big dinners, opening of presents, singing of Christmas songs, ect..

Christmas for me was about how much money I had to spend to get those I loved a little something and it was also about what I was going to get for Christmas. Yes, we spoke of it being Jesus's birthday, but mostly it was all about the tree and the gifts, the parties, Santa and just warm and fuzzy feelings and I loved it! We always said that Jesus was the reason for the season but for me personally, what I saw and practiced was far from putting Jesus firstat this time of year.

Then as I grew older, And had my own family, I finally could have a Christmas Tree. My children grew up the same as mine, with all the stuff that goes along with celebrating Christmas.

Then I started to do my own study about the Christmas Tree, what real purpose did it serve? Why do we decorate a tree once a year? and so on.

I was amazed at what I found out. Then I studied on what time of year Jesus was born. I know we do not know the exact time, but if the Feast of the Lord are foreshadows of Christ, it made sense to me that He was born at the time of Tabernacles/Feast of Succot. He did come and tabernacled among men which He will do again. This was the foreshadow, not unlike Passover where He is our passover Lamb. These feasts were practiced every year by the Israelits as they were commanded to. It was a foreshadow of Him/Jesus.

Now, our family celebrates His birth at Succot time. We sing all the traditional songs and celebrate His birth as well as our new birth in Him.

I get a lot of flack from Christians for celebrating His birth at that time of year.They say that the "Feasts" are done away with. So I tell them that God said they were to be perpetual/forever. But then I ask them, has Chrismas not also been done away with? What I mean is He already was born, lived on earth, and died, and was resurrected. You are just celebrating His birth, right? So I decide to celebrate His birth from what I percieve as actually being the time of His birth. These feasts of God were not given for nothing. They were foreshadows of Him/Jesus. Dec 25th was, for many years before Jesus's birth, pagan gods birthdays. Constantine found a way to bring the masses togethere to celebrate on that day.

Now i do not know if his intentions were good or not. I only know that mixing of different religons if you will does not set well with the Father. But I do not believe that it is a sin for someone to celebrate His Birth, even on Dec 25. Here is my reasoning behind this.

Lets say that my birthday was yesterday, but my son brings gifts to me today and has a party for me today. Do I berate and belittle him because he missed my actual birthday? NO. I love him and he loves me enough to honor me with a celebration.

God says in His word that when He returns, He will teach us His ways. You see, none of us really knows all His ways yet. But we will when He returns.

But know this. Christmas was mixed with pagan rituals and so its no surprise that saying Happy Holidays is in question. I know so many unsaved people who celebrate and love this time of year, but Christ is not even a part of it.

Most people dont question why we do the things we do (Traditions) Its simply traditions passed down thru the ages. And some families add their own traditions.

And I might add, that for some people, including myself, traditions can be very hard to break if we are called from our heart to break them. Shalom
 

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Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
TG, I hope you read my post. I in no way feel superior or better than anyone. And I have never questioned anyones salvation. To me (Christmas) it is not a salvation issue. And I sure do not put myself on some "pedestal". In fact, I believe I told you in an earlier post that I hoped you and yours Christmas would be a blessed one.

I celebrated His birth at Succot(Oct.) with 300 people for 10 days. Worshipping, singing, praying, fellowshipping. I feel sure you see nothing wrong with this?

As I have said before, each one must be convinced in their own mind. I just told you what convinced me. Thanks for listening. I love you TG! Shalom dear Sister
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
yahsway,

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Yeshua declares "few will be saved"
-------------

these statments did indeed make me see that you see yourself as better than others but not only that, but you question how someone can be saved and celeberate Jesus' birth.
If I had question your faith because you refuse to celeberate and keep Jesus in Christmas, you would have been offended and rightfully so.
So, yes, I am offended and hurt.
betty
 

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Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
TG, You need to re-read becauseHelives post. He is the one that posted that, NOT me. Love ya!
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
Sorry dear, you know it is like this, when a puppy gets kicked enough times, he forgets who did which bruise.
But I love you Sis, and I will leave you in peace not to celeberate Christmas and I am sure you in Christian love will allow me to celeberate Jesus' birth in peace also.

betty lou
 

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Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
I think that Drew began his post with an answer to this question Daughter Ann:

quote:

---

I don't impose my beliefs on my family so we will have a tree, and open packages on Christmas morning. It is difficult to remove 50 years of tradition overnight. I hope and pray that one day I to can practice what is in my heart, that Christmas and Easter are pagan cloaked in the sacred, and that the truth is to be found in the Feast of Tabernacles when God tabernacled with man, and that Christ is our Passover Lamb, far removed from the Easter Bunny.

---

This is where we are in our house. This conviction is not an easy one to live with. I can tell you that personally speaking it has been for me in years past very difficult. I cringe at the tree coming into my home. I cannot be excited about it and yet my children love this time of year. In the beginning I struggled internally with this. Praise God for HIS mercy and grace because he has brought peace about this issue. I am today at peace because I know that my children know the truth and while they enjoy the traditions... the cookie baking and the family all together for a speacial meal and warm seasonal decorations in a home where mom really does not get into decorating etc.

It is the family time and tradition that they enjoy and value and they do not any longer hold that we do these things in HONOR of Christ's birth.

We do these things because we enjoy the time together and we know when Christ was born and it was not Dec 25th, and we know that Jesus never told us to memorialize HIS brith... we know that what Jesus said to do in remembrance of HIM is taught in Luke 22:19.

To me... for me, that is what this is about... it is about not participating in this thing that is of the world and calling it HOLY. Particpate if you like and to the level that you feel at liberty, but dont call it HOLY.

It is no more HOLY than the dinner you have with your family on February 24 or October 17... and it is as Holy as all that you do because all that we do, we do unto HIM. For me it is about being honest with ourselves about what it is that we are doing. We are doing something that is traditional. There is nothing wrong with traditional. You want to traditionally decorate your house and cook a trukey dinner any of the 365 days of the year... then do it and enjoy it, but dont say that you do it for the honor of HIS birth... you do it because you enjoy it and it is tradition.

Some have said here that "we celebrate our oiwn births". Well I have to wonder how honored you would feel if your friends and family came together every year and the whole town you lived in decided that they would ignore the time of your birth and celebrate your birthday on a completely different day? How odd would that be? Would you really feel honored or would you feel like well that is nice folks , but I was born on June 3rd and not December 18th!

If we want to do something for HIS honor... then we live as he lived, obey HIs commands, love God above all things and your neighbor as yourself. Go into the world and make disciples, preach the Gospel to every creature... it is in these things that we Honor God.

What has this looked like in our home? We have removed Santa completely. We have taught our children now (in the last 5 years or so) that this is not the time of Christ's birth and that the origins of Christ-Mass are pagan. We do give gifts to our children, but they are either Christ/Bible/ God related or they are things that are needed and we did not give earlier in the year. We do not desire to receive gifts ourselves. We do not buy gifts for each other. We do not participate in the "Holiday" merchandising madness... most of what we buy, we buy throughout the year and/ or we buy online. We don't have Christmas parties; We dont send Christmas gifts to others outside our immediate family. We use the several hundred dollars that we used to spend on Christmas on ourselves each year and we give more to others of things that are needed throughout the year or we pay a bill for someone who is out of a job or something like this.

But we still have one child at home and she loves the season and the lights and the tree and the Poinsettias and the pine boughs and we still have a tree. I can tell you that there will probably be a tree in our home this year and next, if God allows and Christ tarries, but my husband and I have no desire for a tree and we will not likely have one after she is off to college.

Some I know still gather with their families in their family's homes for Christmas dinner. I am not about to impose my convictions on my mother in law who has celebrated Christmas in her home for 30 years. And I am not about to offend her either because I dont want to celebrate Christmas. I know that there are some here who handle this this way.

When our last child has left home, if they want a tree in their home I will go there if they like, for a holiday meal together, or I will still cook a turkey dinner here if they want to come, but there will not likely be a tree. The presents I buy will likely be something that contributes to their Christian walk or growth in grace.

It is not so much about what we do or do not do on December 25th or any other day for that matter... it is about the truth that we spread regarding Chirst and the scriptures.

The truth is that the origins of Christmas are pagan through and through. The truth is that the gluttony and frivolity and commercialism of Christmas done in HIS name probably makes HIM ill and is in no way illustrated in scripture. The truth is that Christ was not born on December 25th. The truth is that we are not anywhere in scripture taught to celebrate or remember HIS birth, but HIS covenant cup and the bread. The truth is that it is very sad that most Christian children can tell you all about Christmas and have never heard of the appointed times of God in the scriptures and the feasts and the fasts that God gave to HIS people in the OT and that they are all prophesy of Christ and are being fulfilled by Christ each of them in HIS appointed time.
 

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Posted by oneyearandcounting (Member # 4449) on :
 
Linda

I must thank you. Your last post was an answered prayer. I have been praying alot about the whole Christmas thing.

Thank you

God bless
greg
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
Linda,
I can answer you question about the wrong day for the birthday. I had my daughter's birthday party on the wrong day one year by mistake.
But in our family we have our birthday cleberations on Sunday no matter what day you were born cause everyone can get together on Sunday. Personally I don't care when the celeberate my birth as long as they have cake and invite me.

I honestly believe what is more important to Jesus is that we honor Him in our celeberations.

God bless you, Linda
betty
 

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Posted by DaughterAnn (Member # 2055) on :
 
Linda,

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate you telling me about your mother-in-law as well as your own children. I would be interested in hearing anyone else's story as well.

This will be the 2nd year that my husband and I don't celebrate Christmas. But I have kept the feasts (not all of them, I'm still growing in my knowledge) for several years.

(I have understood Sukkot to be a type of His second coming, rather than His first. So, I would love it if Yahsway would expound more on this.)

I'm afraid that I have offended my parents in this area, and that is the LAST thing that I wanted to do. But we made our decision based on wanting to separate the common from the holy.


Leviticus 10:10 and that ye may make a distinction between the holy and the common, and between the unclean and the clean;

I understand that those of us who have chosen to stop celebrating Christmas do it with pure intentions. And many of the Christians who do celebrate, also do it with pure intentions. And because of this, it can cause (at the least) hurt feelings.

May The Lord be with us all as we strive to keep our eyes on Him and walk out our salvation with fear and trembling. (Phil 2:12)
 

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Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on :
 
I thank you too Linda - for your honesty and your desire to honor our Lord in truth, above all else.

Tradition, regardless of the fact that it is not scriptural and is indeed steeped in paganism, still trumps the truth in many Christian households this time of year.

I don't get it, but I guess I probably struggle with things that other Christians don't. We're all at different places with regard to our obedience, convictions, understanding, etc.

Personally, I think it is a far stronger witness for a Christian to explain why they don't celebrate Christmas, than to explain why they do.

My family knows that we take our faith seriously and that Santa, trees, presents and carols do not represent our Lord in any way, shape, or form. (nor do bunnies, chicks, eggs and candy in the spring)
 

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Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Yes Hardcore and I do think that this can be explained in a loving way that says this is what the Lord has convicted me of and I know that if HE wills you to be convicted as well that will happen in HIS time not mine.

In dealing with family, I think it is important to tell why we believe as we do. I do not have a problem with my mother in law knowing why we believe as we do; that does not mean that it is up to me to MAKE her believe as I do.

In thinking on how to deal with the celebrations of our families I am reminded of these scriptures:

1 Corinthians 8:1 ¶ Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
4 ¶ As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
7 ¶ Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol’s temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.
1 ¶ Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
2 If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.
3 ¶ Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,
4 Have we not power to eat and to drink?
5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel


To me this speaks to this very thing. Would I offend my mother in law and not go when invited to her home for Christmas dinner?

No! I would not. I would go to her home and I would not be offended and I would be gracious and not seek to offend, but I would neither be silent about what we believe.
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
Truth is the world sees the Christmas Tree as Religious. My son is on the phone with me now, complaing about this. Today he spent his lunch hours putting up a tree in his department that he bought and decorated. He got compliments all day until the boss came and told him to remove it because it is not PC.
This shows that the tree is seen by non-Christians as a Christian symbol.
betty
 

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Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 4667) on :
 
Hi Betty,

I just read your newest posting and I completely agree with you. I cannot comprehend why they want to take God out of everything. There will come a day they will regret their actions and wish they could go back and change their actions. This PC thing goes way too far. God bless you very much, Betty!

With love from your friend,
Joanne
 

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Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 
It's a great day when the Religous people are in agreement with the pagans and the ACLU that want to ban all public expressions of Christmas.

It's very ironic to say the least.

Perhaps Christmas has pagan roots, but it's the pagans ie ACLU types who wish to ban it.

Ask yourself why?
 

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Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
I love the little colored lights and the smell of a pine tree inside my home--so warm and cozy.

God bless, BORN AGAIN
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
No, it is because if Christians forsake Christmas celeberations and the ACLU have their way then then Christmas will become Winter Holidays and any resemblence of Christ in Christmas will be gone completly.
Like I believe White Eagle said, Christians should be ashamed of being on the same side as the ACLU against Christmas.
betty
 

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Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
TEXASGRANDMA writes

quote:

---

Like I believe WhiteEagle said, Christians should be ashamed of being on the same side as the ACLU against Christmas.

---

quote:

---

It's a great day when the Religous people are in agreement with the pagans and the ACLU that want to ban all public expressions of Christmas.

It's very ironic to say the least.

Perhaps Christmas has pagan roots, but it's the pagans ie ACLU types who wish to ban it.

Ask yourself why?

---

Maybe while your asking you could ask why Mormons celebrate Christmas?

Actually banning Christmas was never advocated here that I can see. Calling it a celebration of the birth of Christ and a "Christian" affair" was the topic of the discussion.

You are right the secular humanists behind the ACLU do want to ban Christmas and anything that has association with God, but the fact is you could ban Christmas and a whole lot of people who are not Christian would be affected. Most pagans I know believe that Christ lived. Most pagans dont deny God. There are two different issues when you speak of athiests and when you speak of pagans or wiccans or druids.

That is the point. The secular world celebrates the Christmas season. There are abortion doctors that celebrate Christmas, I used to volunteer at a Planned parenthood office that closed for Christmas and had a Christmas party for its staff every year!!! There are practicing homosexuals that celebrate Christmas buy buying gifts for each other that you could not paste the picture of on this website because they are so sexually obscene. I have known some personally. In fact I used to employ a couple who could fit into this catagory.

Actually I know personally some very religious Roman Catholics and some very pagan wiccan's who personally who would be very upset if one were to ban Christmas. They will be spending Christmas together this December 25 exchanging gifts... some of them which are hand made and hours were spent preparing as Christmas gifts. I know one such wiccan man who made for his wife one year the most interesting pair of earings crafted by hand out of silver - a cross with a pentagram attached to its center. I said to him oh, that is very unusual! His reply was yes is it not beautiful... it symbolizes perfectly my beliefs. These two groups of people have celebrated Christmas together for many years. One prays the rosary and attends mass and the other attends a winter solstice festival, but Christmas day you will find them sitting round the same table for Christmas dinner the decorations will all be there the tree, the manger scene, the santa that bows to the infant in the manger, the pretty packages, the good times and cheer and the smells ... wonderful smells there is just one problem.... it is not about Jesus or his birth it is about the traditions that all enjoy.

Here is an example from a pagan website of how the pagans view Christmas; most pagans are very accepting of other religions.... Now there is a thought... religion... religious people. There is a huge difference in religion and relationship isnt there?

Celebrating Winter Solstice
by Selena Fox

Winter Solstice has been celebrated in cultures the world over for thousands of years. This start of the solar year is a celebration of Light and the rebirth of the Sun. In old Europe, it was known as Yule, from the Norse, Jul, meaning wheel.

Today, many people in Western-based cultures refer to this holiday as "Christmas." Yet a look into its origins of Christmas reveals its Pagan roots. Emperor Aurelian established December 25 as the birthday of the "Invincible Sun" in the third century as part of the Roman Winter Solstice celebrations. Shortly thereafter, in 273, the Christian church selected this day to represent the birthday of Jesus, and by 336, this Roman solar feast day was Christianized. January 6, celebrated as Epiphany in Christendom and linked with the visit of the Magi, was originally an Egyptian date for the Winter Solstice.

Most of the customs, lore, symbols, and rituals associated with "Christmas" actually are linked to Winter Solstice celebrations of ancient Pagan cultures. While Christian mythology is interwoven with contemporary observances of this holiday time, its Pagan nature is still strong and apparent. Pagans today can readily re-Paganize Christmastime and the secular New Year by giving a Pagan spiritual focus to existing holiday customs and by creating new traditions that draw on ancient ways. Here are some ways to do this:


Celebrate Yule with a series of rituals, feasts, and other activities. In most ancient cultures, the celebration lasted more than a day. The ancient Roman Saturnalia festival sometimes went on for a week. Have Winter Solstice Eve and Day be the central focus for your household, and conceptualize other holiday festivities, including New Year's office parties and Christmas visits with Christian relatives, as part of your Solstice celebration. By adopting this perspective, Pagan parents can help their children develop an understanding of the multicultural and interfaith aspects of this holiday time and view "Christmas" as just another form of Solstice. Have gift exchanges and feasts over the course of several days and nights as was done of old. Party hearty on New Year's Eve not just to welcome in the new calendar year, but also to welcome the new solar year.
Adorn the home with sacred herbs and colors. Decorate your home in Druidic holiday colors red, green, and white. Place holly, ivy, evergreen boughs, and pine cones around your home, especially in areas where socializing takes place. Hang a sprig of mistletoe above a major threshold and leave it there until next Yule as a charm for good luck throughout the year. Have family/household members join together to make or purchase an evergreen wreath. Include holiday herbs in it and then place it on your front door to symbolize the continuity of life and the wheel of the year. If you choose to have a living or a harvested evergreen tree as part of your holiday decorations, call it a Solstice tree and decorate it with Pagan symbols.
Convey love to family, friends, and associates. At the heart of Saturnalia was the custom of family and friends feasting together and exchanging presents. Continue this custom by visiting, entertaining, giving gifts, and sending greetings by mail and/or phone. Consider those who are and/or have been important in your life and share appreciation.
Reclaim Santa Claus as a Pagan Godform. Today's Santa is a folk figure with multicultural roots. He embodies characteristics of Saturn (Roman agricultural god), Cronos (Greek god, also known as Father Time), the Holly King (Celtic god of the dying year), Father Ice/Grandfather Frost (Russian winter god), Thor (Norse sky god who rides the sky in a chariot drawn by goats), Odin/Wotan (Scandinavian/Teutonic All-Father who rides the sky on an eight-legged horse), Frey (Norse fertility god), and the Tomte (a Norse Land Spirit known for giving gifts to children at this time of year). Santa's reindeer can be viewed as forms of Herne, the Celtic Horned God. Decorate your home with Santa images that reflect His Pagan heritage.
Honor the Goddess as Great Mother. Place Pagan Mother Goddess images around your home. You may also want to include one with a Sun child, such as Isis with Horus. Pagan Goddess forms traditionally linked with this time of year include Tonantzin (Native Mexican corn mother), Holda (Teutonic earth goddess of good fortune), Bona Dea (Roman women's goddess of abundance and prophecy), Ops (Roman goddess of plenty), Au Set/Isis (Egyptian/multicultural All Goddess whose worship continued in Christian times under the name Mary), Lucina/St. Lucy (Roman/Swedish goddess/saint of light), and Befana (Italian Witch who gives gifts to children at this season).
Honor the new solar year with light. Do a Solstice Eve ritual in which you meditate in darkness and then welcome the birth of the sun by lighting candles and singing chants and Pagan carols. If you have a indoor fireplace or an outdoor fire circle, burn an oak log as a Yule log and save a bit to start next year's fire. Decorate the inside and/or outside of your home with electric colored lights. Because of the popularity of five pointed stars as holiday symbols, this is a good time to display a pentagram of blue or white lights.
Contribute to the manifestation of more wellness on Planet Earth. Donate food and clothing to poor in your area. Volunteer time at a social service agency. Put up bird feeders and keep them filled throughout the winter to supplement the diets of wild birds. Donate funds and items to non-profit groups, such as Pagan/Wiccan churches and environmental organizations. Meditate for world peace. Work magic for a healthier planet. Make a pledge to do some form of good works in the new solar year.

For further reading:

Campanelli, Pauline & Dan, Wheel of the Year: Living the Magical Life. St. Paul: LLewellyn, 1989, pages 1-16.
Crim, Keith, editor, The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions. San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1989, pages 154, 182.
Ek, Hildur, Jul Tomtar, Jul Bockar and Sheaves of Grain. Lindsborg, KS: Barbos Printing, 1983.
Farrar, Janet & Stewart, Eight Sabbats for Witches. London: Hale, 1981, chapter 11.
Funk & Wagnalls, Standard Dictionary of Folklore, Mythology and Legend. New York: Funk & Wagnalls, 1979, pages 229-230, 974-975,
Royale, Duncan, History of Santa: from 2000 BC to the 20th Century. Fullerton, CA: M. E. Duncan, 1987.
Scullard, H. H., Festivals and Ceremonies of the Roman Republic. Ithaca, NY: Cornell University Press, 1981. pages 205-212.

This article was first published in Circle Network News.
 

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Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
the whole tradition of Chrstmas, whether accurate or not, provides a magnificent opportunity for evangelism--that's probably why the devil would like to get rid of Christmas.

when else can I get away with singing on the street corner that Jesus, the Savior of the world, was born in a manger in Bethlehem?

like, who cares if the holiday is real or not, the devil is rarely so sloppy as he finds himself having to be around Christmas--yea, he can get 'em to "shop till they drop", but unfortunately, those Christians take advantage of the devil's "goodness" to evangelize about that Jesus of Nazareth fellow.

Give me Christmas or give me death!

God bless, BORN AGAIN
 

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Posted by oneyearandcounting (Member # 4449) on :
 
I posted this somewhere else but I'm putting it here to.


Advanced Member
Member # 4449

posted November 30, 2005 11:34 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Really sucks that I can see both sides to the debate. I personnally think you have to do what is placed in your heart to do by the Lord.

Born again made a good point though Satan does get sloppy. I married into a Christian family but after one or two times of them preaching Christ I said enough no more. WEll evey Christmas My mother in law bought me two books. Always sports books by Christain athletes. You know what happened I knew what I was gettingalways said thank you. And because I like to read I read them.

The good thing about them was they talked about Christ but basically there wasn't any meat at all. In reading them the planted a small seed but nothing major that affected the way I now look at Christianity. When I got saved last year For Christmas we bought all our family and friends Christian type gifts. Mostly DVd's not one person was bold enough to throw them back at us. It's a seed.

I think that as Christains we need to look at the world. Can we use a day like Christmas to our advantage? Yes we can.

I looked at the pagan parts of Christmas, and as the man of the house was gonna say no more Christmas. My wife was angry and I couldn't figure out why. One night she actualy told me. I am going to share it with you right now.

When she was 5 her real father started molesting her. This happened till she was 16 yearsold.Now on Christmas every year he basically was a changed man for a week or so. That became my wifes favorite time of the year. So even now as a 31 year old it is her favorite time of the year.

I asked her why and she said that for that one week or so every yea Satan left her alone. And her family was somewhat normal. In talking to her brothers and sisters they all feel the same way.

This year I will be celebrating Christmas. I will celebrate my Saviors birth and I will celebrate it because it was the only time of the year that my wife got to have a normal childhood.
You know what I think God will understand.


God bless you

greg
 

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Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 
Linda (I love your grinch picture) very funny, as I know you are not a grinch at heart, even though you have your beliefs about this issue)


You make good point. But those people celebrate Christmas as winter solistice or whatever would continue that practice unless they got saved.

Born Again makes a very good point that Christmas is an opportunity for evangelism, and it reminds people that there IS a Savior, and HOPE, and that Angels sang when Christ was born and that a miracle occurred 2000 years ago, when God was sent to earth.

My family is abusive and on Christmas that was about the only time they acted loving when I was growing up. There is something special about this celebrating of Christ's birth.

The angels proclaimed: "Peace on earth and good will toward men."

The KIng of KIngs was born in a manger. Even the poorest person can relate to His humble birth.

As Christians we have a duty to keep the story of Christ's birth and message of the gospel.

If you read the words of many of the Christmas songs, such as Joy to the World, The first Noel, Silent Night, O Holy Night, these songs tell the gospel message.

Merry Christmas!
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 

quote:

---

As Christians we have a duty to keep the story of Christ's birth and message of the gospel.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Celebrating Winter Solstice
by Selena Fox

Winter Solstice has been celebrated in cultures the world over for thousands of years. This start of the solar year is a celebration of Light and the rebirth of the Sun. In old Europe, it was known as Yule, from the Norse, Jul, meaning wheel.

Today, many people in Western-based cultures refer to this holiday as "Christmas." Yet a look into its origins of Christmas reveals its Pagan roots. Emperor Aurelian established December 25 as the birthday of the "Invincible Sun" in the third century as part of the Roman Winter Solstice celebrations. Shortly thereafter, in 273, the Christian church selected this day to represent the birthday of Jesus, and by 336, this Roman solar feast day was Christianized. January 6, celebrated as Epiphany in Christendom and linked with the visit of the Magi, was originally an Egyptian date for the Winter Solstice.

Most of the customs, lore, symbols, and rituals associated with "Christmas" actually are linked to Winter Solstice celebrations of ancient Pagan cultures. While Christian mythology is interwoven with contemporary observances of this holiday time, its Pagan nature is still strong and apparent. Pagans today can readily re-Paganize Christmastime and the secular New Year by giving a Pagan spiritual focus to existing holiday customs and by creating new traditions that draw on ancient ways. Here are some ways to do this:


Celebrate Yule with a series of rituals, feasts, and other activities. In most ancient cultures, the celebration lasted more than a day. The ancient Roman Saturnalia festival sometimes went on for a week. Have Winter Solstice Eve and Day be the central focus for your household, and conceptualize other holiday festivities, including New Year's office parties and Christmas visits with Christian relatives, as part of your Solstice celebration. By adopting this perspective, Pagan parents can help their children develop an understanding of the multicultural and interfaith aspects of this holiday time and view "Christmas" as just another form of Solstice. Have gift exchanges and feasts over the course of several days and nights as was done of old. Party hearty on New Year's Eve not just to welcome in the new calendar year, but also to welcome the new solar year.
Adorn the home with sacred herbs and colors. Decorate your home in Druidic holiday colors red, green, and white. Place holly, ivy, evergreen boughs, and pine cones around your home, especially in areas where socializing takes place. Hang a sprig of mistletoe above a major threshold and leave it there until next Yule as a charm for good luck throughout the year. Have family/household members join together to make or purchase an evergreen wreath. Include holiday herbs in it and then place it on your front door to symbolize the continuity of life and the wheel of the year. If you choose to have a living or a harvested evergreen tree as part of your holiday decorations, call it a Solstice tree and decorate it with Pagan symbols.
Convey love to family, friends, and associates. At the heart of Saturnalia was the custom of family and friends feasting together and exchanging presents. Continue this custom by visiting, entertaining, giving gifts, and sending greetings by mail and/or phone. Consider those who are and/or have been important in your life and share appreciation.
Reclaim Santa Claus as a Pagan Godform. Today's Santa is a folk figure with multicultural roots. He embodies characteristics of Saturn (Roman agricultural god), Cronos (Greek god, also known as Father Time), the Holly King (Celtic god of the dying year), Father Ice/Grandfather Frost (Russian winter god), Thor (Norse sky god who rides the sky in a chariot drawn by goats), Odin/Wotan (Scandinavian/Teutonic All-Father who rides the sky on an eight-legged horse), Frey (Norse fertility god), and the Tomte (a Norse Land Spirit known for giving gifts to children at this time of year). Santa's reindeer can be viewed as forms of Herne, the Celtic Horned God. Decorate your home with Santa images that reflect His Pagan heritage.
Honor the Goddess as Great Mother. Place Pagan Mother Goddess images around your home. You may also want to include one with a Sun child, such as Isis with Horus. Pagan Goddess forms traditionally linked with this time of year include Tonantzin (Native Mexican corn mother), Holda (Teutonic earth goddess of good fortune), Bona Dea (Roman women's goddess of abundance and prophecy), Ops (Roman goddess of plenty), Au Set/Isis (Egyptian/multicultural All Goddess whose worship continued in Christian times under the name Mary), Lucina/St. Lucy (Roman/Swedish goddess/saint of light), and Befana (Italian Witch who gives gifts to children at this season).
Honor the new solar year with light. Do a Solstice Eve ritual in which you meditate in darkness and then welcome the birth of the sun by lighting candles and singing chants and Pagan carols. If you have a indoor fireplace or an outdoor fire circle, burn an oak log as a Yule log and save a bit to start next year's fire. Decorate the inside and/or outside of your home with electric colored lights. Because of the popularity of five pointed stars as holiday symbols, this is a good time to display a pentagram of blue or white lights.
Contribute to the manifestation of more wellness on Planet Earth. Donate food and clothing to poor in your area. Volunteer time at a social service agency. Put up bird feeders and keep them filled throughout the winter to supplement the diets of wild birds. Donate funds and items to non-profit groups, such as Pagan/Wiccan churches and environmental organizations. Meditate for world peace. Work magic for a healthier planet. Make a pledge to do some form of good works in the new solar year.

For further reading:

Campanelli, Pauline & Dan, Wheel of the Year: Living the Magical Life. St. Paul: LLewellyn, 1989, pages 1-16.
Crim, Keith, editor, The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions. San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1989, pages 154, 182.
Ek, Hildur, Jul Tomtar, Jul Bockar and Sheaves of Grain. Lindsborg, KS: Barbos Printing, 1983.
Farrar, Janet & Stewart, Eight Sabbats for Witches. London: Hale, 1981, chapter 11.
Funk & Wagnalls, Standard Dictionary of Folklore, Mythology and Legend. New York: Funk & Wagnalls, 1979, pages 229-230, 974-975,
Royale, Duncan, History of Santa: from 2000 BC to the 20th Century. Fullerton, CA: M. E. Duncan, 1987.
Scullard, H. H., Festivals and Ceremonies of the Roman Republic. Ithaca, NY: Cornell University Press, 1981. pages 205-212.

This article was first published in Circle Network News.

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EGADS!

What must the Lord think of his children doing these same things? There are so many references in the Old Testement where God tells His children not to worship him the way the pagans do...
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
Sorry Soft Touch,
But I celeberate Christmas as a form of worship to Jesus not santa. In my apartment are 3 ornaments showing santa praying to Jesus, not Jesus praying to santa. To imply that those who celeberate Christmas is indeed insulting to millions of Christians who will not only celeberate Jesus' birth in their homes, but in their Churches Sunday morning. Why did Christmas began with the Catholic Church? Because that was the only Christian Church at the time. If you and I would have been alive back then, we would have been Catholic, Jew, or non-Christians. Whether we believe everything the Catholic Church does or not, every Christian Church got their roots from the Catholic Church.
This is the truth.
When Christians go in their Churches Christmas Sunday morning, we will be sining praises to our Heavnly Father, not singing praises to santa claus. Please do not imply that there is no Christian connection to Christmas. It is Christ---mas. celeberbrating Christmas is worshpping Jesus not santa. even non Christians do not offer worship to their tree or fake santas.
thank you and Merry Christmas
betty
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
SoftTouch

quote:

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What must the Lord think of his children doing these same things? There are so many references in the Old Testement where God tells His children not to worship him the way the pagans do...

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My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge(Hosea 4:1-6)

Knowledge: A Necessity for Godly Living


When Peter wrote about the traits of godliness or the fruit of the Spirit, he urged that knowledge be added to our lives. Knowledge of God's will is and always has been one of the most vital virtues among God's people. Jesus said, "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32). In the long ago God said, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being My priest. Since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children" (Hos. 4:6). When God allowed the ten tribes to go into Assyrian captivity, it was because of a lack of knowledge properly applied. When the people of Judah were taken into Babylon, it was because of a lack of knowledge. People refused to listen to men like Jeremiah. How vital knowledge is!

What A Lack Of Knowledge Does

1. A lack of knowledge keeps us in spiritual slavery to Satan. When Jesus said, "You shall know the truth, and the truth will make you free" (John 8:32), the Jews responded, "We are Abraham's offspring and have never been enslaved to anyone; how is it that you say, 'You shall become free'?" Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin" (vv. 33-34). They were in spiritual bondage because of a lack of knowledge. I am sure that there are multiplied thousands on earth today who are not Christians because they do not know. They, too, are in bondage because of a lack of knowledge. What a dynamic responsibility is placed upon the Christian to carry the Lord's words of freedom to the lost so that they might "come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved" (1 Tim. 2:4). Surely a lack of knowledge keeps us enslaved to the devil.

2. A lack of knowledge causes us to be lost. In 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul spoke of the lawless one "whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming" (v. 8). This lawless one works in complete harmony with Satan (v. 9). In Paul's words he uses "all the deception of wickedness for those who perish" (v. 10). Why would they be deceived? Why would they perish? "Because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved" (v. 10). Because they did not have the love of the truth, "God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false" (v. 11). The result of their believing what is false is condemnation (v. 12). What is the cure for this condition? A love for the truth that will cause us to search for that truth, learn it, and live by it is the solution.

3. A lack of knowledge keeps us as children tossed and carried by winds and waves. One reason that Jesus gave gifts to the church - apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers - was to help us come to "the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man" (Eph. 4:11-13). As a result of this knowledge, he says, "we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves, and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming" (v. 14). So, a lack of knowledge would leave us as children. It puts us in the position of being tossed by the waves and carried about by the trickery and craftiness of scheming men. This may well explain why "millions call him (the pope) 'holy father."' It may well explain why millions are happy in denominationalism. It can well explain why thousands of brethren have no concept of Bible authority and therefore practice those things which are unauthorized. They are deceived because of a lack of knowledge.

4. A lack of knowledge keeps us from being able to teach others. This was precisely the situation described by the Hebrews writer in 5:12-14: "For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for some one to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For every one who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil. " They had been Christians long enough to be able to teach others, but their lack of knowledge left them in the baby class where milk had to be used rather than solid food. The church is robbed of able teachers because some lack knowledge that they should have gained. Souls may be robbed of salvation because someone didn't teach them the way of life. How tragic indeed is a lack of knowledge when that knowledge could have been gained!

5. A lack of knowledge causes us to be ashamed. We often quote 2 Timothy 2:15: "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." A failure to study means that I will have a lack of knowledge. This will cause me shame in not knowing God's will. It will cause me shame in not being able to "give an answer for the hope that is in me." It will cause me shame in not being able to guide my children properly. It will cause me shame in not being able to be a fountain of spiritual wisdom for my grandchildren. More than anything else, it will cause me shame when I stand before the Lord on the day of judgment. Oh, how I need to gain the knowledge of the Lord and his way!

How Knowledge Comes To Us

1. A person is not born with knowledge. It is not a gift that can be bestowed as a birthday present. The Holy Spirit does not come down and zap us with knowledge. Knowledge is acquired only by the use of our own mind in that activity called study. Our minds are capable of so very much, and yet we use them so very little. Psychologists tell us that we only use 2 to 5 percent of our mental abilities. Oliver Wendell Holmes said that the average person goes to his grave with his music still in him. I am sure that this is true in our spiritual lives. We could learn so very much about God and his word and yet we do not apply ourselves. We remain spiritual pygmies when we could become spiritual giants! The only way we can know God's word is by study. There is no other way. That study may be in form of our own reading of God's word and information about it or by our listening to others and discussing it with them. But the truth is self-evident: we must study in order to gain knowledge.

2. God commands us to study his word in order that we may know his will. Peter tells us to be "like newborn babes" and "long for the pure milk of the word, that by it you may grow in respect to salvation" (1 Pet. 2:2). He further said, "but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" (2 Pet. 3:18). The need is evident; the order is clear: we must study the word!

3. We are inspired by some noble examples of Bible study. The attitude of Cornelius is a beautiful example of one's desire to learn the truth. He said, "Now then, we are all here present before God to hear all that you have been commanded by the Lord" (Acts 10:33). Inspiration praises the people of Berea as being "noble" because "they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily, to see whether these things were so" (Acts 17:11). Their quest for knowledge let them to the diligent effort necessary to come to know God's will.

4. God places upon parents some heavy responsibility along this line. In speaking to the parents in Israel, he said:

"Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one! And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. And these words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart; and you shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up. And you shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as frontals on your forehead. And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates (Deut. 6:4-9).

Parents today have a grave responsibility resting upon their shoulders. They are responsible for teaching children honesty, purity, dedication, and faithfulness is worship. They are responsible for guiding their children into sexual purity. We cannot leave it to the church or to the schools. So many parents have abandoned their sacred trust! We must restore to parents their allegiance to God and their children. How mighty is the call to parents to impart spiritual knowledge to children!

Truly, knowledge comes only through the learning process. It is up to us as to how much we learn and know.

III. Some Things We Must Know

1. We must know God. In fact, those who do not know God are in the group of those who will be banished from the presence of the Lord and the glory of his power (2 Thess. 1:7-9). Paul's intent in his precisely logical presentation on Mars Hill was to produce the knowledge of God in order that man may "seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us" (Acts 17:22-30). It is a lack of knowledge of God that causes the bulk of the immorality in the world. Paul said that we are not to live "in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God" (1 Thess. 4:5). We can only come to know God through his revelation of himself in his word. True, in nature we can know that there is a supreme being, but we cannot know who he is or what his characteristics are. Only by divine revelation can we know God and that revelation is the Bible (1 Cor. 2:9-13). To know God, we must study his word. The proof of our knowing God is seen in our keeping his commandments. "And by this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, 'I have come to know Him,' and does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected" (1 John 2:3-5).

2. We must know Jesus. Paul's desire was to know him (Jesus) and the power of his resurrection (Phil. 3:10). John wrote, "Many other signs therefore Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:30-31). Thus, we come to know Jesus just as we come to know God -through the revelation that is given to us in the Bible. It is only by knowing Jesus that we can have the salvation that is made possible by his death, burial and resurrection. Paul tells us of the gospel which he preached "by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures" (1 Cor. 15:1-4). We must know that Jesus was born of a virgin (Luke 1:26-38), that he did signs and wonders among the people (John 20:30-31), that he died for me, that he was raised for my justification (Rom. 4:25), that he ascended into Heaven to sit at God's right hand where he reigns over his kingdom (Eph. 1:19-23; 1 Cor. 15:24-26) and ever lives to make reconciliation for the sins of his people (Heb. 7:25). When I come to know him, I win only want to love him and serve him as the King of kings and Lord of lords (Rev. 19:16).

3. We must know the truth. Only by our knowing the truth can we be made free from sin (John 8:32). The reason that "the man of sin" could deceive so many people was that "they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved" (2 Thess. 2:10). The reason that many people "go onward and abide not in the doctrine of Christ" (2 John 9) is that they often do not know the truth. If I love the truth, I will diligently seek to know it so that I can live by it.

The writer of the majestic Psalm 119 is a dynamic example to us of love for the truth of God's word. As he uses the Hebrew alphabet to label each section, in practically every verse he uses a term that refers to the law of God. Observe:

v. 11: Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

v. 14: I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies, as much as in all riches.

v. 16: I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.

v. 24: Thy testimonies also are my delight, and my counselors.

v. 47: I will delight myself in thy commandments, which I have loved.

v. 72: The law of thy mouth is better unto me than thousands of gold and silver.

v. 97: O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.

v. 105: Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

v. 140: Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.

Our need is to develop this same kind of love for the truth. Then we will diligently seek it.

4. I must know the truth about salvation. In very simple language Jesus sets forth his plan of salvation in such passages as Matthew 28:18-20, Mark 16:15-16, and Luke 24:47. We should have little trouble understanding it. It is tragic that these demagogues of religious theology have concocted ways of salvation that are not in God's book and deceive the hearts of the simple with such teachings as "faith only," "give your heart to Jesus as we pray, " etc. Jesus teaches that we must hear the gospel, believe it, repent, and be baptized in order to be saved or receive the remission of sins. Not only did he set it forth very plainly, but we see it consistently in action in the book of Acts. In the second chapter Peter tells his inquiring listeners to "repent and be baptized for the remission of sins" (v. 38). In every case of conversion we see the same plan in operation. Now, I must know this truth in order to be saved. I cannot be scripturally baptized without knowing the purpose of that baptism (Col. 2:12). Knowing and obeying his truth will make me free from sin.

5. We must know how to live. The purpose of divine revelation is to teach us how to live our lives in this world. Paul wrote Timothy in order that men might "know how to behave themselves in the house of God" (1 Tim. 3:14-15). The Lord's message teaches us to "live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world (Tit. 2:11-12). And "as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul" (1 Pet. 2:11-12). The character of God and of Jesus is revealed in the Bible. My goal is to become as God is. Therefore, I must know how to live and I can do that only as I know his truth.

6. We must know God's promises. We five in a world where there are temptations, discouragements, and numerous hindrances to godly living. We need motivations to keep on living as God desires. Some of the greatest motivations are the "exceeding great and precious promises of God" (2 Pet. 1:4). When temptations come, when discouragements weigh heavy upon us, the promises of God will sustain us. He has said that he will never leave us (Heb. 13:5-6). He has said that "all things work together for good to those who love God" (Rom. 8:28). He has said that we will have a gloriously new body in Heaven (2 Cor. 5:1-2). He has promised eternal life (Tit. 1:2). When we know and believe these promises, we have the incentive to keep on keeping on. We have the positive assurance that our labor is not in vain in the Lord (I Cor. 15:58). Let us loam and rely on the promises of God.

IV. Our Knowledge Must Be Connected With Doing

Our reason for learning the truths of the Bible is not that we might be a "walking encyclopedia." It is not that we might be a master at Bible trivia. We learn that we may do. Jesus said that the man who heard and would not do is like the foolish man who built his house on the sand (Matt. 7:24-28). James gives us the graphic picture of one who looks in the mirror and then forgets what he saw and then compares the forgetful hearer to such a foolish one (Jas. 1:22-25). We must be doers of the word. John tells us how we truly come to know God. He says, "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments" (1 John 2:3). He goes on to say that a person who claimed to know and did not keep his commandments is a liar (v. 4). Our whole purpose in gaining the knowledge of God is to five as he wants us to live (1 Pet. 1:16).

Once again we look to the Psalmist as he spoke of applying truth to life in Psalms 119.

v. 33: Teach me, O Lord, the way of thy statutes, and I shall keep it unto the end.

v. 34: Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.

v. 112: I have inclined mine heart to perform thy statutes alway, even unto the end.

As a result of following God's way we can say as the psalmist said: "Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them" (v. 165). May we come to have the kind of knowledge in our hearts that will make us free and will keep us in the pathway of righteousness all the days of our lives.
 

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
I am so sad that this is causing a wedge between us again this year. I knew it would I am Not condemning you or anyone for what they choose to celebrate; but in the same breath, I can not deny the convictions that are on "my" heart (that others share as well). Each of us needs to deal with the convictions the Holy Spirit brings on our own hearts. This is a thread to discuss those convictions, but not to accuse anyone on either side. I understand all too well how this makes you feel and believe me it grieves me to see that. You Know that I Love you my Sister!

quote:

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Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
Why did Christmas began with the Catholic Church? Because that was the only Christian Church at the time. If you and I would have been alive back then, we would have been Catholic, Jew, or non-Christians. Whether we believe everything the Catholic Church does or not, every Christian Church got their roots from the Catholic Church.
This is the truth.

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I don't have the research at my finger tips, but there has always been a "remnant" of Believers that were not in the Catholic Church. (I was just reading about this yesterday and I can't remember the source!). Messianics were never part of the RCC, and from what I've read on Fundamental Baptist's origins, they wern't either. I'm sure there's more then this... they may not have been 'formally organized' during the 'reign' of the RCC through history, but they we not a part of it (and many died horrible deaths because of that). I'm willing to bet Dale or Linda have info on that... I've lost all of my research from two computer crahses a while back

I Understand that you're not worshiping santa and I don't believe you ever would!

For me it's the whole idea of taking a high pagan day (Dec. 25th) which was dedicated to just about every pagan 'sun' god that's been worshipped and assigning it to our precious Lord and Savior (and incorporating all the festivities and decorations used by the pagans and giving them 'different' meanings). Jerimiah had a lot to say to the children of Israel about doing these kinds of things. I can't help but feel that if it was offensive go God then, that it still is - as He does not change. That's where I'm coming from. This is the Conviction that the Holy Spirit has laid on My heart.

I was shocked by Linda's post and felt the need to comment on it. I'm sorry I caused you offense again Betty. I do not condemn you or anyone else.
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
I grew up in the Assemblies of God Church but, I attended all the Bible Schools in my town. I always felt welcome at all the different Churches. We had the same values and we all celeberated Christmas. Christmas was very big in our town and very big with all the Churches.
When I joined the Christian BBS, I suffered a huge awakening that just because Christians in my town were similar, did not mean that Christians from around the Country were. Here I have met Christians who don't believe in going to Church, or tithing, and now Chrisitans who don't celeberate Christmas. It makes me sad that as a Christian I could be an outsider among other Christians. There are other Christian boards that celeberate Christmas and don't condemn Christians for doing so. The truth is I like it here, and I thought I had friends here, I hate that I am becoming more and more unwelcomed here. It is easy to say a person should not be hurt, but when one implies that you will go to hell for celeberating Christmas and another implies your commiting a sin by doing so, it can't help but make you feel like a bull in a china shop.
It breaks my heart, that people can be so anti-Christmas. Well at least I have my Church and my Church in Texas behind me on this. They too believe that Christians should fight very hard to keep Jesus the reason for the season. It does not bother me that others dont' celeberate Christmas. But, when my friends look down on me for doing so, I wonder if they were really my friends at all. But then again the devil has won by turning Christmas from good into evil in Christians eyes.
betty
 

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
You don't have to leave Betty. I think it's time that I do. This is breaking my heart
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
If anyone should go, it should be me. It is obvious that more agree with you than me. Please do not let me run you off. I did not say what I said to hurt you, but spoke from my heart.
I can't stand it when people kiss up to people than rat on them behind your back. Yes, I have a problem with people making me feel bad about Christmas and that is why I am being honest about it with you. But, I do NOT want to cause you pain. To lie to your face would cause you more pain then to speak the truth in love.
betty
 

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Posted by Bat Elohim (Member # 3739) on :
 
Why does it always come down to this?

No one should leave.

We all have our opinions. That's what makes this message board so good. We see everyone's opinions and decide for ourselves what we believe.

Soft Touch, Mrs. Betty, please don't leave.

We have already lost so many.

Shalom.
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 

quote:

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Why does it always come down to this?

No one should leave.

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quote:

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If you and I would have been alive back then, we would have been Catholic, Jew, or non-Christians. Whether we believe everything the Catholic Church does or not, every Christian Church got their roots from the Catholic Church.
This is the truth.

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Betty: this is not the truth. There was no Roman Catholic Church until the third century. The Roman Catholic Church was born when Constantine declared Christianity to be the official religion of the Roman Empire. (Which by the way the Bible teaches no man can do - Christ alone will stnd on the mount of olives and declare the Kingdoms of the world are become HIS) Under constantine any one who would not join the church became persecuted. The Church of Christ that had been the persecuted now became the persecutors. Where Paul and the Christians of the first two centuries had experienced poverty, suffering and persecution at the hands of Rome in order to remain faithful to their beliefs... now "being a Christian" was the thing to be... the thing that the ones in the power and in the wealth and in the graces or the emporor were. If you would not claim Chiristianity you were an enemy of the state!

There remained throughout history a remnant who did not follow the apostasy of the Roman Catholic Church. In fact the baptists are not decendants of Luther's PRO TEST ANT reformation but have always been from the days that John the Baptist was baptising.

So please, celebrate Christmas if you feel that you are at liberty, but I pray that you will not go about saying that the Roman Catholic Church was the only church that there was and you were either a believer and member of it or you were a Jew or a heathen. Because this is hardly the truth.

God Bless You and your house.
Linda
 

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Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on :
 
If the course of Abia is understood, it's timeframe, &c, it will be seen that the conception occurred Dec25th, and not the birth of Christ.

And of course, like every other of God's feasts, festivals, and Christian holidays, Satan foreknew of these, and set Pagan days upon them prior to God's having making His important days known.

Of course, it is foolish to question whether God should be celebrated on His holy days, as we should always, imo, celebrate the conception of Christ.


Before Christ, as is probably known by all here, the pagans would go up to the green trees, to the grove - not a green tree - and place a gift to their gods on this day.

I think we can celebrate without the trappings of paganism, and it is our obligation to the children to tell them the real meaning of the day, even how it was and is undermined by pagan things which worship not God.

Here are the helpful links dealing w/the timing, the conception, and the course of Abia from the appendixes of the Companion Bible:

http://www.angelfire.com/nv/TheOliveBranch/append179a.html
http://www.angelfire.com/nv/TheOliveBranch/append179b.html
http://www.angelfire.com/nv/TheOliveBranch/append179c.html
 

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Posted by shadowmaker (Member # 3696) on :
 
Betty, youre not alone. Some of us, just arent taking part in this post. I dont care who sides with who but I will celebrate Christmas. I refuse to argue about it, I refuse to get upset over it, and I refuse to care what the pagans did. I m celebrating my Lord and Saviors birthday and did I mention, I DONT CARE WHAT THE PAGANS DID.

Do ya ll realize how many people get saved, rededicate their lives, and hear the gospel of Jesus during Christmas? I see more people in church during this time of year, that I may not for the rest of the year. But it plants that seed and it brings people who have strayed or dont know Jesus, to Christ. (For the record, I was saved on Easter Sunday. ) Plus, its a perfect time to witness to the unsaved.

And I REFUSE to say "Happy Holidays or Happy winter festival". If they get offended, tough. As a Christian, I m making a stand.

So, dont leave us Betty, I ll make the stand with you.

Merry Christmas everybody,
Brad
 

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Posted by J4Jesus (Member # 1367) on :
 
dude, some kid in my class said something so RIGHT the other day, our class got to talking about christmas but he said "hmm, i wonder if santa clause is satan, but just a cover up to get kids to follow him".

i was thinking "you have no idea"
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
Is not Santa C much like Harry P much like the tooth fairy?

All being lies that permote a false sence of dirrection to a feeling of goodness?

So how manny little ones has this lie hurt when they became big ones and their faith in a A Real Living God is shattered when the lie made its self known?
 

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Posted by dguss (Member # 5314) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:

quote:

---

It's a great day when the Religous people are in agreement with the pagans and the ACLU that want to ban all public expressions of Christmas.

It's very ironic to say the least.

Perhaps Christmas has pagan roots, but it's the pagans ie ACLU types who wish to ban it.

Ask yourself why?

---

Maybe while your asking you could ask why Mormons celebrate Christmas?

Actually banning Christmas was never advocated here that I can see. Calling it a celebration of the birth of Christ and a "Christian" affair" was the topic of the discussion.

---

Since I'm inclined to agree with most of the posts AGAINST christmas, what does God himself have to say? Is christ-mass mentioned anywhere in Gods Word? Notice what God had to say to the House Of Israel concerning the "custom" of decorating a tree:

Does God say anything about the Christmas tree? Notice, "Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

"Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

"For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the ax.

"They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not" (Jeremiah 10:1-4).

Reread these scriptures if need too, but notice what God has to say about the practice of adorning trees; "LEARN NOT THE WAY OF THE HEATHEN!" How much more clear does God have to be for people to understand this vital point? The verses above sound an awful lot like the Xmas tree to me.

What else does God have to say about these practices? Let's move on and find the truth!

"What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it" (Deuteronomy 12:29-32).

Many will argue that Christmas and other pagan/heathen festivals are "extra-Biblical"; that, while they are not enjoined by scripture, are nevertheless harmless inventions of sincere Christians in worship of God and Christ. But God thunders at rebellious mankind, "Thou shalt not add thereto" in methods of worship!

Now I know what you're thinking, that's the Old Covenant and has no bearing on me. Remember God is the same yesterday, today, and forever...so it does have a bearing on you! Remember the entire Bible constructs the entire Word of Truth.

Plainly, God commanded His people NOT TO COPY the modes of heathen worship of the degenerate pagan nations of the world; not to adapt their ceremonies, symbols, and rituals, and call them by a different name. Yet, in direct, flagrant disobedience to this divine command, tens of millions indulge in these non-Biblical customs.

"`Tis the season to be jolly! Fa-la-la-la-la, la-la-la-la! Deck the halls with boughs of Holly!"—a familiar refrain. The "Christmas season" is exactly the same thing as "observing times"; observing the winter solstice, just as pagan sun-worshipers did.

The "holiday season," or "yuletide," or the "twelve days of Christmas" are commonly used to connote the "Christmas" holiday, or the "Christmas season."

What does Almighty God say about this?

"For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD..." (Deuteronomy 18:10-12).

My family and I don't do any of these man-made traditions. Easter isn't allowed in our home either.

Each of us has the "right" to celebrate whatever we like in this country. I believe in personal freedom, and obviously so does God considering He gave us free will. If you so choose to observe the christ-mass thing, have at it! I just hope that the little that I've posted here will open up some eyes to the TRUTH about this abhorred abomination.

If any of you don't believe anything I've written? Do the research and find out where Santa Clause, the Yule Log, the christmas tree, and the rest of these wicked traditions originate from...then you decide whether to follow man's folly or Gods Truth.

My 2 cents worth!

"How can we put Christ back into christ-mass, when He was never there in the first place?"
 

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Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
I agree with you; but conviction of those things has to come in one's heart by the moveing of the spirit. We can't legislate to others. We have to speak the truth but the Spirit has to do the convicting.
 

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Posted by shadowmaker (Member # 3696) on :
 
The versus you give in Deut, is talking about sacrifices of children to false gods. And not to worshipping God in the way that these people do. Now, if you want to get technical about it, according to that, we shouldnt pray to God bc the pagans prayed to the sun god. Now are you going to stop praying? I know that I am not.

The one in Jeremiah is referring to cutting down a tree, craving a statue out of it and worshoping the statue. Notice it says "the work of the hands of the workman". This isnt referring to a Christmas tree. I m not worshipping the Christmas tree and I m not craving it up.

This is the time of year whether its the right day or month that we celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ. And Satan will stop at nothing, to tarnish, put down, and elimnate this once a yr event. Satan knows this celebration brings people to church, its used to spread the gospel, and it saves lost souls.

You should be using this time to witness to people, pass out tracks, etc etc. Not arguing with other christians about how its wrong bc of something the pagans did.

If its all about Santa, the tree, etc etc, THEN WHY is the ACLU and some of the other morons out there trying to elimnate it? Its a christian event, it spread the gospel, how much more can I say that. Satan wants it the "winter festival". He wants it to be "happy holidays". He wants people to put "xmas". Notice xmas takes Christ out of Christmas. Satan wants Christ gone. BUT guess what, in the end, we still win.

Merry Christmas,
Brad
 

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Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
I found this from a Catholic justifying Jesus born on Christmas:

* The Liturgical Year: Dom Gueranger

And firstly, with regard to our Saviour's Birth on Dec. 25, we have St. John Chrysostom telling us in his homliy for this Feast, that the Western Churches had, from the very commencement of Christianity, kept it on this day. He is not satisfied with merely mentioning this tradition; he undertakes to show it is very well founded, inasmuch as the Church of Rome had every means of knowing the true day of our Saviour's Birth, since the acts of the enrollment, taken in Judea by command of Augustus, were kept in the public archives of Rome.The Holy Doctor adduces a second arguement, which he founds upon the Gospel of St. Luke, and he reasons thus: we know from the sacred Scriptures that it must have been in the fast of the sevent month (Lev 23.the 7th month, Tsiri, corresponded to out Sept, beginning of October) that the Priest Zachary had the vision in the Temple; after which Elizabeth, his wife, conceived St. John the Baptist; hence it follows that that the Blessed Virgin Mary having, as the Evangelist St Luke relates, received the Angel Gabriel's visit, and conceived the Saviour of the world in the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy, that is to say March, the Birth of Jesus must have taken palce in the month of December.

* Or, one could ignore the Records of the Enrollment, the Bible, Tradition, Ecclesiastical Calendars etc and continue to sow enmity and error in an attempt to discredit the Church Jesus established (matt 16:18)

(Source: search FreeRepublic religion forum on thread "Why some Christians don't celebrate Christmas". I can't post the link here as it is another discussion board)

---------------------------------------

I also found this justifying Jesus born during Feast of Tabernacles:

http://biblicalholidays.com/Tabernac..._of_christ.htm

...

When Zechariah was ministering in the temple, he received an announcement from God of a coming son. The eighth course of Abia, when Zekharya was ministering, was the week of Sivan 12 to 18 (Killian n.d.). Adding forty weeks for a normal pregnancy reveals that John the Baptist was born on or about Passover (Nisan 14). We know six months after John's conception, Mary conceived Jesus (Luke 1:26-33). Therefore, Jesus would have been conceived six months later in the month of Kislev. Kislev 25 is Hanukkah. Was the "light of the world" conceived on the festival of lights?

Starting at Hanukkah, which begins on Kislev 25 and continues for eight days, and counting through the nine months of Mary's pregnancy, one arrives at the approximate time of the birth of Jesus at the Festival of Tabernacles (the early fall of the year).


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I Chronicles 24 we know that the priests of the order of Abijah were assigned to Temple service between the 12-18th days of the month of Sivan.

Now it was during his time of service in the Temple, in the week of the 12-18th day of Sivan, that Zecharias was told by an angel that his wife Elizabeth would have a son.

Luke says that Zecharias went home and that Elizabeth conceived. We don’t know exactly when this conception took place. But let’s say that within a week of Zecharias’s temple service ending, she did conceive--around Sivan 25.

If so, Zecharias’ son, who was later known as John the Baptist, would probably have been born on or about Nisan 15, which is the Feast of Passover, 285 days later. Two hundred and eighty five days is the normal human gestation period.

Remember that the gospels say that John the Baptist came in the spirit and power of Elijah. In John’s time the Jewish people were looking for Elijah to come as a forerunner to Messiah, and they expected Elijah to come at Passover.

So if John the Baptist, the “Elijah” to come, was born on Passover, he literally fulfilled this expectation.

(By the way, those of you who have been to a Passover seder know that Elijah is still expected to come at Passover.)

Now IF this is true about when John was conceived and born, let’s consider Mary (Miriam), the mother of Yeshua.

According to Luke, the angel Gabriel visited Mary in the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy. The sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy would have begun on the 25th day of the month of Kislev, which just happens to be the first day of Hanukkah, the Feast of Dedication.

Hanukkah is the feast that celebrates a great miracle, when the Temple was being rededicated in 164 BC after being desecrated by a foreign king. Interestingly, it was on that day that tradition held that both the original temple of Solomon and the temple constructed by Ezra had been dedicated.

Hanukkah is an eight-day feast commemorating the miracle of the temple oil burning for eight nights when there was only enough for one day.

So if we place the appearance of the angel Gabriel to Mary during the Feast of Hanukkah, possibly Yeshua was conceived in Mary’s womb during that very feast. Another interesting tie-in to Yeshua: eight is the number traditionally associated with Messiah, and of course light is the major symbol for the Feast of Hanukkah.

Now 285 days from the first day of Hanukkah is Tisri 15, the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles. So if Yeshua was actually conceived during the Feast of Hanukkah, He would have been born during--the Feast of Tabernacles!

http://www.sidroth.org/prayer_main16.htm

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

God bless you all;

For myself I reject the claim that the Roman archives would have revealed the taxation records from Bethleham and the name of Joseph.

1) If the record existed to be found under constantine it would have been venerated.

2) The individual taxation names, for all the Roman Empire would have been far too extensive and expensive to "waste" the scrolls on. The correspondance coming from the Roman Procurator for Palestine would have detailed amounts collected and administration business, only. An obscure carpenter, registering in a small village in Palestine would not have been of any concern to the Roman Empire, at the time of the census.

The Roman Census and collection for taxes was collected following the fall harvest, when crops and weaned animals could be available for revenues.

The shepherd would not have been out in the open during the rainy/snowy winter months in Palestine.

For myself the Jewish Festival of Succoth, could not be a more auspicious Feast for Messiah to Tabernacle with man.

For this old greybeard from Kansas it is not an easy matter, nor one lightly entered into, to divest my heart of a half century of man's Christ's Mass traditions.

There will be no Christ's Mass tree around the Throne of David, when our Lord of Lords begines the righteous reign of the Root of Jessie.

There will be no stockings hung in Jerusalem, and no elf to come and fill them.

There will be no Christ's Mass songs sung in the presence of the Lamb of God, but only praises of Glory.

For this old man I thirst for the purity of His Word and His eternal Truth. I find little truth in the celebration of Christ's Mass, but far more of myth and legend decorated with sacred trappings.

In my research I have found that apparently in 1969 the RCC removed St. Nicolas from their list of Saints, do to a lack of solid evidence that he in fact ever existed. The feast of December 6th has apparently been changed from obligatory to an optional celebration.

This is why I use the Grinch as an avatar, for to those who lift-up Christmas in their hearts, my heart appears as small as that of the Grinch as he stole the Who's Christmas.

I merely state my personal perspective and where my heart is. We will probably have a tree, presents, and Christmas programs and dinner with my children and precious grandbabies. I do not force myu personal heart belief onto others, and until the Holy Spirit moves in the hearts of my family they will celebrate, but I cannot any longer in my heart.

May God so bless His precious children.
 

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Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
DREW! have you been eating your GREEN beans? You are looking rather GREEEEEEEN!

quote:

---

There will be no Christ's Mass tree around the Throne of David, when our Lord of Lords begines the righteous reign of the Root of Jessie.

There will be no stockings hung in Jerusalem, and no elf to come and fill them.

There will be no Christ's Mass songs sung in the presence of the Lamb of God, but only praises of Glory.

---

Amen, so true, but there will be a feast in the Millennial reign! I believe this is prophesy future, no?

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
 

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Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
H4HS:
DREW! have you been eating your GREEN beans? You are looking rather GREEEEEEEN! [roll on floor] [pound]

Drew:
Yikes I have da Grinchitis, it be most contagious....

H4HS:
quote:There will be no Christ's Mass tree around the Throne of David, when our Lord of Lords begines the righteous reign of the Root of Jessie.

There will be no stockings hung in Jerusalem, and no elf to come and fill them.

There will be no Christ's Mass songs sung in the presence of the Lamb of God, but only praises of Glory.

Amen, so true, but there will be a feast in the Millennial reign! I believe this is prophesy future, no?

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.


Drew:
13: And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
14: Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

Is not it amazing that possibly the true feast of the Incarnation of God will be observed during the glorious reign of the KING.....
 

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Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by WhiteEagle:


If you read the words of many of the Christmas songs, such as Joy to the World, The first Noel, Silent Night, O Holy Night, these songs tell the gospel message.

Merry Christmas!

---

From the posted article:

15. Christmas Carols -- What do you suppose the reaction would be by a church's leaders if its pastor were to propose that the following hymns be introduced into the church to commemorate the birth of Christ? After all, the tunes are quite lovely.

Hymn #1 -- A hymn by a Unitarian minister (Unitarians reject the Trinity and full deity of Christ) that does not mention Jesus Christ and reflects the liberal social gospel theology of the 19th century.

Hymn #2 -- A hymn by an American Episcopal priest, the fourth verse of which teaches Roman Catholic superstition about Christ coming to be born in people during the Advent season.

Hymn #3 -- A song, the words by an Austrian Roman Catholic priest, the music by a Roman Catholic schoolteacher, containing the Roman Catholic superstition about halos emanating from holy people, with no gospel message.

Perhaps you would expect the church's leaders to be very upset. It might surprise you to learn that they were upset when they suspected that the pastor might somehow prevent them from singing them! You see, those three hymns were already in the church's hymnals! The pastor did not have to introduce them. The three theologically incorrect "Christmas carols" referred to above are It Came Upon the Midnight Clear, O Little Town of Bethlehem, and Silent Night. (See the sub-report for an evaluation of some of the most popular Xmas carols found in church hymnals today.)
 

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Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 

 

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Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by hardcore:

quote:

---

Originally posted by WhiteEagle:


If you read the words of many of the Christmas songs, such as Joy to the World, The first Noel, Silent Night, O Holy Night, these songs tell the gospel message.

Merry Christmas!

---

From the posted article:

15. Christmas Carols -- What do you suppose the reaction would be by a church's leaders if its pastor were to propose that the following hymns be introduced into the church to commemorate the birth of Christ? After all, the tunes are quite lovely.

Hymn #1 -- A hymn by a Unitarian minister (Unitarians reject the Trinity and full deity of Christ) that does not mention Jesus Christ and reflects the liberal social gospel theology of the 19th century.

Hymn #2 -- A hymn by an American Episcopal priest, the fourth verse of which teaches Roman Catholic superstition about Christ coming to be born in people during the Advent season.

Hymn #3 -- A song, the words by an Austrian Roman Catholic priest, the music by a Roman Catholic schoolteacher, containing the Roman Catholic superstition about halos emanating from holy people, with no gospel message.

Perhaps you would expect the church's leaders to be very upset. It might surprise you to learn that they were upset when they suspected that the pastor might somehow prevent them from singing them! You see, those three hymns were already in the church's hymnals! The pastor did not have to introduce them. The three theologically incorrect "Christmas carols" referred to above are It Came Upon the Midnight Clear, O Little Town of Bethlehem, and Silent Night. (See the sub-report for an evaluation of some of the most popular Xmas carols found in church hymnals today.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by oneyearandcounting:
Good thing we have grace.


God bless

greg

---

Yes indeed.

P.S. I find the scripture from Acts at the bottom of your post quite ironic given the subject matter at hand.
 

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Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
Walt:
Drew you know what your problem is? (I have the same one by the way)

You don't want to swallow any lies along with the truth.

When you taste a lie mixed in with what you're being fed - you spit it all out.

Most people don't care that there is lies mixed in with their truth, they look at it like sugar, makes it taste sweeter that's all.

NEVER MIND that the lies they swallow are theological soul poison.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Caretaker:

Amen Walt!

As a certified wastewater operator, I have learned that the wastewater coming into the treatment plant is 99.99% pure water. It is only that .01% that contaminates and make it unpalatable.

In treating the wastewater one uses test kits to analyze PH, BODs, SS, etc., and is able to determine when the filters, screens, weirs, clorinators, ect. have done their job and the water is ready for effluent.

There is a great deal of contaminated faith and practice coming into the Believer as influent. The true and faithful use God's Word to determine what is truth and what is poison and to be rejected. The Bible is the Believers Test Kit.

What we see in the celebration of Christ's Mass, is a great deal of the poisons of paganism, legend, myth, secular hedonism, decorated with .01% Jesus and being consumed by a huge population.

I see the colored lights, the decorated fertility symbols, Norse mythology in a red suit and instead of Thor's goats we see reindeer. We see the perpetual helpless sacrificial child, and the elevation of Heaven's Queen, paraded and embraced for centuries, an excuse for revelry and hedonism.


It is a poison which is being marketed to the youngest and most vulnerable. Parents taught to lie and deceive, and children being indoctrinated in a red suited demon with powers of omniscience, judgement, who operates with great mystical powers and is eternal, and embraced from our pulpits and pews.

An insidious poison with a facade of sweetness, light, and facilitated by those who have been called upon to stand and resist.

The celebration of Christ's Mass has begun to turn my stomuch, and my soul is repelled as my heart beholds the sheer iniquity parading as an angel of light.
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
Have yourself a merry little Christmas.
Let your heart be light,
From now on our troubles
Will be out of sight.
Have yourself a merry little Christmas,
Make the Yule-tide gay,
From now on our troubles
Will be miles away.
Here we are as in olden days,
Happy golden days of yore,
Faithful friends who are dear to us
Gather near to us once more.
Through the years
We all will be together
If the Fates allow,
Hang a shining star
On the highest bough,
And have yourself
A merry little Christmas now.
 

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Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caretaker:
"Theologically incorrect" ???

These songs paint a word picture of the night Jesus was born and angels singing and are inspired from Gospels' account of Christ's birth.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
angels singing????


10: And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
11: For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
12: And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
13:And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
14: Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

Silent Night

Silent night, holy night,
Shepherds quake at the sight;
Glories stream from heaven afar,
Heavenly hosts sing Alleluia!
Christ the Savior is born,
Christ the Savior is born!

Silent night, holy night,
Son of God, love’s pure light;
Radiant beams from Thy holy face
With the dawn of redeeming grace,
Jesus, Lord, at Thy birth,
Jesus, Lord, at Thy birth.

Silent night, holy night
Wondrous star, lend thy light;
With the angels let us sing,
Alleluia to our King;

---

Keep the Letter of your Law.

I guess you believe you are saved by your theology?


Angels praising God can be singing.

Your brand or my brand or anyone's brand of theology will not get you saved.

Trust and Obey. Worship God in Spirit and in Truth.

Those who live by their law will die by their own law. I'll accept God's GRace.
 

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Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 
BTW I was listening to the Laura Ingram's radio show this morning. She had an atheist leader of some sort on and was interviewing this person about Christmas.

The atheist said that Christians had stolen the "holiday" from the Pagan festival of Winter Solistice. The atheist stated she personally celebrated the winter solistice and admitted it was from the pagan celebration. (she's atheist???)

Laura asked her "who sent the sun? (Son) double meaning as the winter solistice celebrates the days getting longer.

The atheist kind of had no answer.

So it seems that the Pagans who worship the winter solistice are unhappy that Christianity "stole" the meaning away for so many years from them.

This is just another spiritual battle about control of the world. And many of you grinches AND SCROOGES are playing right into the devil's hands.

Praise God the meaning of this time of year became a time to honor the Lord Jesus Christ.
 

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Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 4667) on :
 
Those of us who honor and celebrate Jesus's birth will have a very blessed and wonderful time doing so! Those of you who object cannot ruin it for us no matter how much you object or what you continue to say! Jesus' birth is the focus of our celebration!
 

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Posted by oneyearandcounting (Member # 4449) on :
 
And yet we still have grace.


God bless
greg
 

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Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 

quote:

---

This is just another spiritual battle about control of the world. And many of you grinches AND SCROOGES are playing right into the devil's hands.

---

quote:

---

YOU CAN NOT DEFEND CHRISTMAS USING GOD'S WORD

BECAUSE IT IS MAN'S TRADITION

---

Amen Walt! That is it in a nutshell.
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
so we should never sing a song that is not about Jesus. Goodness me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Maybe we should all become monks. hmmmmmmmmmmm
betty
so how about:
Away in the manger
Silent Night
The First Noel
Joy to the World?
betty
walks off singing silent night
 

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Posted by oneyearandcounting (Member # 4449) on :
 
Well I guess I'll join the party.

Here is a interesting couple of verses. Lets see how I do. Mind you I being the somewhat smart person I am know I can not change anyones mind. That is notmy intention. We now have the same topic being delt with on three seperate threads.

This very topic I have prayed on I really have. And well here is what I have, it isn't much but it will have to do. Now I know that the smart bible students like Walt and Drew will basicaly rip this apart but such is life.

Jhn 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.


Jhn 10:23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.


Jhn 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.


Jhn 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.


Jhn 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.


Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:


Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.


Jhn 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.


Jhn 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.


Jhn 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.


Ok Here is what I seecorrect me if I am wrong. The festival is Hanakuhh, man made. Jesus is there in the mist of all the people during the festival not hiding somewhere but partaking in it. Now it has been argued that because Christmas isn't mentioned in the Bible we shouldn't do it. But Hanakuhh isn't mentioned, yet the Jews celebrated it. And God in the flesh also took part in it.

The thing I find interesting about this is Christ didn't condemn the people for this. He took the time to teach you see this as you read down through the verses. In fact this is one of the key places in the Gospel that Christ said he was God. Right here during the winter festival. Oh by the way at this time Hanakhh was only a few hundred years old.

So with that said Iguess Ican leave that alone for a min.

Oh I saw someone say that since Groups like the Mormans celebrate the day we call Christmas that should be a clue thatitis wrong.

I see your Mormans and I trump it with Judism Islam And J. W. Lets see one denied thier Messiah. One thinks Christ was but a man and the other denys his divenity. So all that deny Christmas have put them selves in a grou with three false religions. Now I can't tell you you have to celebrate Christmas.

My brother in law goes to a church where they don't believe in wering makeup. The men dont wear shorts or t shirts. They say the sripture says it is wrong to do this. Now I can't tell him he is wrong even if I think it is because to him it is a sin. So if he thinks it is a sin to him it is sin.

I guess thats all i have for now.

God bless and Merry Christmas

greg
 

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Posted by oneyearandcounting (Member # 4449) on :
 
Oh yeah I almost forgot.

I believe it was Drew who mentioned the angles praising the birth of the Lord. Lets see heavenly angels praise (which can mean sing) the birth of the Lord. But according to some we humans should not. Interesting. Mind you I don't believe we as Christians should get sucked into the whole holiday thing but as far as the birth of Christ I guess since the angles had no problem celebrating then I don't either. But what do I know I'm just one year and counting.(Actually its almost two now.)

God bless you all and Merry Christmas

greg
 

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Posted by oneyearandcounting (Member # 4449) on :
 
Walt

Walt some like myself have said that we have taken the pagen parts out of Christmas, only to be told that it isn't enough.

What did you compare it to suger in the poison. That is what I have the problem with. It seems to me that if I say I am celebrating Christmas you and others are jumping up and down crying foul.

Heres the thing many times I have said I could be wrong in fact I have said I'm sorry to people on this board for pushing things to far. But right now you are doing the same thing you are pushing on something and don't know when to say ok enough. I can tell you this, this topic is not edifying to one person on this board.

We can probably go back and forth on this topic for awhile. The question would become would anyone change their mind. I say no.

As far as the wiccans poking fun at us guess what I don't care my God is bigger than their god.

I'm going to continue to praqy on this. Not that you see my way cause you won't in fact you can't. But I am going to pray that the Lord will continue to rain down his grace on me. Because believe it or not I do see your point. I just don't agree.

God bless you

greg
 

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Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
I see that that you are correct Greg. God does not begrudge us traditions!

Traditions have wonderful cultural value to our society! A community might have a tradition to celebrate he harvest of their specific crop. When I lived in Florida we had a tradition of the Strawberry Festival. The small community of Plant City Florida grows a good deal of the strawberries that are grown in this country and every year at harvest they have a festival and you can go and see crafts and eat the best going strawberry short cake around. This festival knits the community together and is good!

Thanksgiving someone mentioned in another thread. There is nothing wrong with our tradition of Thanksgiving here in America.

There is nothing that I know of wrong with our tradition of celebrating our birthdays or our anniversaries or Maple Syrup cooking day or what ever your families traditions are. God does not deny us or begrudge us having traditions.

The problem that I see with Christmas is that we took what was the pagan RELIGIOUS celebration of winter solstice which the Christians should have gladly given up as they no longer worshiped or served gods that were no gods and we rather than chastising the church for its continued delving in religious paganism claimed their traditions as ours and painted them over with "Christian" meaning and significance and claimed them to honor THE only God who is God.

The truth is HE is not honored.

Why?

Because the Birth of Christ was perfectly and precisely appointed to the time that it was and it was not December 25th. Do we not understand that GOD is a precise God? Every thing about the life, death, resurrection ascension and even the return of HIM is specifically and precisely appointed and exact time by GOD and those times are prophesied and taught in the natural by God himself and they are the times of the feasts and fasts found in the scripture.

Gee God I know that you did this most incredible thing. You precisely picked the very day that Christ would be born out of all the days that you gave to the earth and you picked it and kept it for more than 6 thousand years and order every feast through calendar changes and wars and changes of power and all that happened throughout history that Jesus would be born on that day and would come into the world at a time, not when his earthly mother would be at home but while she would be journeying to Jerusalem and when there would be no place to stay because there were so many others also journeying to Jerusalem for the specific festival of your divine appointment that has prophesied of me from the beginning, but I like my tree and my present giving and my Holiday cheer and so I want to celebrate this great magnificent thing that you have done then because it suits me. Come on!

I just read an article in the Chicago time that Willow Creek is not going to have church service on Sunday so people can be with their families.

50K plus people are regular attendees at that church's church service. I wonder how many of them have any idea in the world the significance of Sukkot? I honestly do not know how anyone can know the significance of Sukkot and claim that Christmas is the celebration of Jesus' birth. There is not one thing in the celebration of Christmas that speaks to GOD's providence in the appointed time and festivities of Sukkot. Then again neither do many know why the Bible speaks of people coming down from the roof tops either or why at the transfiguration when the disciples wanted to build a tent for Jesus and Moses and Elijah, God stepped in and said... THIS IS my Beloved SON with whom I am well pleased. That was a purposed intentional and meaningful statement if you know the meaning of Sukkot. And you will note that they did NOT build tabernacles.

I could go on and one of the things that are part of the tradition of Christmas that became our traditions relabeled for the fooling of God's people and the taking away of there attention from what GOD has done and appointed.

Jesus may have attended many festivals that were the celebrations or traditions of men. But I guarantee you Jesus never lit a Yule Log or covered his mantle in mistletoe and Holy or did any of the other things that were done unto the gods that were not gods and called it being done unto the Father GOD.

Someone brought up the scripture the other day about the not decorating the trees and said it was speaking to the carving of idols. This may be, but do we think that God did not know that in 2005, people would be decorating trees in another way? Do you really think that it is just coincidence the language of that scripture? If that is how we are to interpret the word then there is no idolatry in Christianity today because there are not gold cast calves, right?

The problem is not as I see it that man has traditions. The problem is that Christians have traditions that were done to summon the works of the pagan god... to bless a harvest or return warmth and the sun to the land etc and we continue to do them and call them by HIS name, when the scripture clearly says not to LEARN the way of the heathen.

Jesus told us what to do in remembrance of HIM and it was to celebrate HIS covenant - the breaking of bread - what we call communion. No place in the scripture do we find the apostles celebrating the birth of Christ. No place in the scripture do we see Jesus doing anything that was associated with the worship of pagan gods or practicing the customs of the nations.

I mean come on... we give EACH other gifts because the wise men brought HIM gifts. I might be able to buy that if it was to HIM we were giving gifts. Gifts were given to each other by the druids this is why we give gifts to each other... we adopted their heathen culture and we like it! Putting Christ's name on it allows us to justify it.

Jesus through out the money changers in the temple built of stone and said you wont merchandise in the temple. Do you think he approves of the merchandising we do in this one that is not made of stone? The commercialism and materialism of Christmas is appalling even if it were still done as it was done by the druids and the Nordic peoples and Christ's name was not on it; It was appalling I am sure when it was the Roman culture buying and giving sigillaria dolls to sacrifice to the gods, but put Christ's name on it and appalling does not describe the disgust I feel when I look at Christmas trees going up before Halloween is past and the droves of people pushing and shoving and acting like fools to get their (what ever the fad) gift of the season is.

There is not anything wrong with traditions. God does not bar us from having traditions; but there is much wrong with traditions that were learned of the heathen religious practices and there is much wrong with claiming that our traditions are HOLY or that God even approves of our traditions that amount to our having learned the way of the heathen. There is much wrong with our knowing more about the traditions of the druids than we know about the appointed times and feasts and fasts of God, and there is much wrong with telling the world that we honor God by doing things that are directly opposed by God and things that Jesus would not do.

I am done on this subject. It was never my intention to be acting or sounding like a bully; I don't see that it is my place to convince any one to see things as I do. I personally understand your thoughts Greg with regard to your wife's feelings about the season. I think that my husband made a similar decision in allowing a tree to remain in our home for my daughter who just simply loves the "Christmas time" glow of things and the cookie baking and the family time that the personal traditions in our home have always been. I would have taken a different approach, but God gave me a husband who is a Godly man and much more able to run this house than I could ever be and I whole heartedly submit to his leadership and wisdom in this and I trust that God does and will continue guide him. Still I look forward to the year that we will be empty Nester and have no tree. I am thankful for the things that we have changed mostly my heart about the matter because there is no way that I can sit here and tell you that for me Christmas was all about Jesus though it is why I thought we celebrated, when I examined with honest heart our traditions they were just that traditions. I did not decorate for Jesus or cook for Jesus or shop for Jesus. I cooked because I loved to cook for a crowd; I cooked because i loved being the home that showed hospitality to anyone and everyone my family would drag home that had no place else to be and I decorated because I like pretty things and I don't decorate all year long this was the one time that my home looked like it was planned and not just a hodge podge of things collected. And I shopped because I wanted to be the one remembered for finding that just perfect gift. It was for me all about me and the "Christ" in Christmas gave me a legitimate excuse. There may be someone out there who really does all these things FOR Christ and to them I say... WOW! Because I have never met anyone who did and I don't personally know (understand)how you do it,because I could not know what I know about it and really feel that I was honoring him, but that is me personally and if you really do do it for HIM then Praise God!

Peace Be with you all! Not just this season, but in all seasons.

Linda
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
THE LITTLE DRUMMER BOY
(Davis-Onorati-Simeone)

Come they told me (pa-rum pum pum pum)
A newborn King to see (pa-rum pum pum pum)
Our finest gifts we bring pa-rum pum pum pum
To lay before the King
So to honor Him (pa-rum pum pum pum)
when we come

Little Baby (pa-rum pum pum pum)
I am a poor boy too (pa-rum pum pum pum)
I have no gift to bring (pa-rum pum pum pum)
that's fit to give our King
Shall I play for You? (pa-rum pum pum pum)
On my drum

Mary nodded (pa-rum pum pum pum)
The ox and lamb kept time (pa-rum pum pum pum)
I played my drum for Him (pa-rum pum pum pum)
I played my best for Him
Then He smiled at me (pa-rum pum pum pum)
Me and my drum
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
there is nothing wrong with that song. I love that song.


Written by Vince Guaraldi, Lee Mendelson

Verse 1:
Christmas time is here
Happiness and cheer
Fun for all that children call
Their favorite (fav’rite) time of the year

Verse 2:
Snowflakes in the air
Carols everywhere (ev’rywhere)
Olden times and ancient rhymes
Of love and dreams to share

Bridge:
Sleigh bells in the air
Beauty everywhere
Yuletide by the fireside
And joyful memories (mem'ries) there

Verse 3:
Christmas time is here
We'll be (Fam'lies) drawing near
Oh, that we could always see
Such spirit through the year

Instrumental

Repeat to Bridge and with last Verse (3) substituting Fam'lies for "We'll be"

Thanks to tenilly for these lyrics.
 

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Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 4667) on :
 
WParr,

You are wrong!

The three wise men most assuredly brought gifts to Jesus and the gifts were gold, frankincense, and myrrh!
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
don't worry gramajo, only a mean old scrooge would call The Drummer Boy song, trash.
betty
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
Chestnuts Roasting On An Open Fire

Chestnuts roasting on an open fire
Jack Frost nipping at your nose
Yuletide carols being sung by a choir
And folks dressed up like Eskimos

Ev'rybody knows a turkey and some mistletoe
Help to make the season bright
Tiny tots with their eyes all aglow
Will find it hard to sleep tonight

They know that Santa's on his way
He's loaded lots of toys and goodies on his sleigh
And ev'ry mother's child is gonna spy
To see if reindeer really know how to fly

And so I'm offering this simple phrase
To kids from one to ninety-two
Although it's been said many times, many ways,
"Merry Christmas to you."
 

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Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 4667) on :
 
WParr,

Read about Jesus's birth in Matthew chapter two.
They brought Jesus gifts!!!!! The child is Jesus!!! We honor and celebrate Jesus's birth. You've made it clear that you don't do such a thing and that's your perogative, but you do not have the right to judge other people's hearts at all! WParr you read your bible!!!! You will be judged by every measure in which you judge others!!!!
 

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Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 4667) on :
 
Hi Betty,

I say Amen to your postings and I love your songs!
We love to honor and celebrate Jesus's birth no matter what any of those who object say! We who celebrate in honor of Jesus will have a truly blessed wonderful time!! God bless you very much Betty!

With love from your friend,
Joanne
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
Joanne,
thank you,
I love Christmas songs.
betty
 

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Posted by shadowmaker (Member # 3696) on :
 
Hark! the herald angels sing,
Glory to the newborn King,
peace on earth, and mercy mild,
God and sinners reconcile.
Joyful, all ye nations, rise,
join the triumph of the skies;
with the angelic host proclaim,
'Christ is born in Bethlehem'
Hark! the herald angels sing,
Glory to the newborn King.

Christ, by highest heaven adored,
Christ, the everlasting Lord,
late in time behold him come,
offspring of a virgin's womb.
Veiled in flesh the Godhead see;
hail, the incarnate deity,
pleased as Man with to dwell,
Jesus, our Emmanuel!
Hark! the herald angels sing,
Glory to the newborn King.

Hail, the heaven-born Prince of peace!
Hail the Sun of righteousness!
Light and life to all he brings,
risen with healing in his wings.
Mild he lays his glory by,
born that man no more may die,
born to raise the suns of earth,
born to give them second birth.
Hark! the herald angels sing,
Glory to the newborn King.


 

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Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 4667) on :
 
Shadowmaker,

A huge Amen to your posting too! Another beautiful Christmas song! I love Christmas songs and it's a true joy to see texasgrandma and you posting these wonderful blessed songs! God bless you very much!

With love,
Joanne
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

someone said how do we know that the angels sang at Jesus' birth, but God is for singing. I believe the angels did sing with joy at the birth of Jesus.
betty
 

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Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 4667) on :
 
Hi Betty,

I completely agree with you that the angels did sing when Jesus was born. God bless you very much, Betty!

With love from your friend,
Joanne
 

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Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
Here is an example of a tradition.

The "three" wise men.

The scriptures do not refer to 3 wise men. It only refers to "wise men" coming from the east.

There were however 3 gifts that these wise men brought for Yeshua.

We are not told how many wise men came, but down thru the years songs such as We three Kings have become a tradition.

On another note, the scriptures do say that there was a heavenly host praising God and saying Glory to God in the Highest and on earth Peace to men of Goodwill. I believe they (angels) were singing.

Rev 5:9 is not refering to the angels singing a new song, but of the prayers of the saints:

And they (saints) sang a new song, saying;

You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals
For you were slain, and have redeemed US (not angels) to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe tonge and people and nation
And have made US (not angels) kings and priests to our God; And WE shall reign on the earth.

Amen!
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
I don't think it matters whether it was three or 10 wiseman. What is important is that God did send wise men to see the Christ child. Why is it important? It re-enforces the truth that Jesus' birth was a very important event in History. An event that many many Christian Churches around the world will celeberate in great joy, that God would leave His glorious home to become a lowly babe in a manger just so that He could bring salvation to a world that does not deserve it. When it is all said and done, it does not matter when Jesus was born, but that we, as His children take the time to celeberate and be thankful for the greatest gift mankind was ever given. Christmas and Easter go hand in hand for without Chirstmas there would be no Easter and without the death of Jesus and ressurrection of Jesus, there would be no salvation. My Pastor in Texas puts out a cross with his Christmas decorations in his yard, because he says we must never forget the great gift of Christmas led to the victory at the cross.
betty
 

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Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
TG, I agree, I was just showing how traditions become well, traditions! Shalom
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
No Problem, hon,
and Peace be to you and your household.
God blessings,
betty lou
 

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Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
TEXASGRANDMA writes

quote:

---

What is important is that God did send wise men to see the Christ child. Why is it important? It re-enforces the truth that Jesus' birth was a very important event in History.

---

How do you know that God sent the wise men? I think Lucifer-Satan sent the wise men, because the result of the wise men coming to Jerusalem is that numerous children under 2 years old were killed, and Joseph and Mary and the child Jesus had to flee to Egypt.

in addition, these wise men or magi came from the east, which was the seat of Lucifer-Satan.

I therefore do not think that God sent the wise men, but Lucifer-Satan.

God bless, BORN AGAIN
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
Mat 2:12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.


They obeyed God not the devil. Yes, the God sent the wise men. IF they had been of satan they would not have obeyed God and satan would have killed the baby Jesus.
betty
 

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Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
TEXASGRANDMA wrote

quote:

---

Mat 2:12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.

they obeyed God, not the devil.

---

they may have been "magi" but they were NOT stupid.

they were of the class of people, as we see in our modern-day "New Age" people, they'll just about accept "anyone who appears superior in power".

Also, it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God, and these "magi" no doubt chose the better part of wisdom and skedaddled home by another way to save their own skins.

God bless, BORN AGAIN
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
You have no right to call these men new agers. They may have indeed been men of faith and you, my friend, have spoken things you do not know for a fact to be true.
betty
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
besides if God had been displeased with these men bringing gifts, He would have said so in the Bible.
betty
 

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Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
TEXASGRANDMA
 

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Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
TEXASGRANDMA writes

quote:

---

besides if God had been displeased with these men bringing gifts, He would have said so in the Bible.

---

many, many things happened which, for the sake of expediency, were not mentioned in the Bible:

John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

God bless, BORN AGAIN
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
If God had issues with the men bringing gifts to Jesus, it would have been in the Bible. It was often in the Bible when God had issues with people.
Unless you can prove these guys were new agers, you should not bad mouth them.
betty
 

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Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
TEXASGRANDMA writes to BORN AGAIN

quote:

---

unless you can prove they are new agers, you should not bad mouth them.

---

quote:

---

Proverbs 10:14
Wise men store up knowledge, but the mouth of a fool invites ruin.

---

Now you're mixing apples with oranges, HisGrace.

In Strong's Concordance (www.eliyah.com), the word "wise" (the word "men" is implied but not in the text) in the OT is:

2450 chakam, from 2449; wise, (i.e. intelligent, skilful or artful):--cunning (man), subtil, ((un-)), wise((hearted), man).

In the Greek, "chakam" became "sophos" and NOT "magos".

In Egypt, Pharaoh had wise men (sophos) and he had "magicians":

Gen 41:8 And it came to pass in the morning 01242 that his spirit 07307 was troubled 06470 ; and he sent 07971 and called 07121 for all the magicians 2748 of Egypt 04714, and all the wise men 2450 thereof: and Pharaoh 06547 told 05608 them his dream 02472; but [there was] none that could interpret 06622 them unto Pharaoh 06547.

Strong's Concordance (www.eliyah.com)
2748 chartom, from the same as 2747; a horoscopist (as drawing magical lines or circles):--magician.

New Testament

Mat 2:1 Now 1161 when Jesus 2424 was born 1080 in 1722 Bethlehem 965 of Judaea 2449 in 1722 the days 2250 of Herod 2264 the king 935, behold 2400 , there came 3854 wise men 3097 from 575 the east 395 to 1519 Jerusalem 2414.

Strong's Concordance (www.eliyah.com)
3096 mageuo, from 3097; to practice magic:--use sorcery.

3097 magos, of foreign origin (7248); a Magian, i.e. Oriental scientist; by implication, a magician:--sorcerer, wise man.

Other occurrences of "magos" in the NT:

Act 13:6 And 1161 when they had gone through 1330 the isle 3520 unto 891 Paphos 3974, they found 2147 a certain 5100 sorcerer 3097, a false prophet 5578, a Jew 2453, whose 3739 name 3686 [was] Barjesus 919.

Act 13:8 But 1161 Elymas 1681 the sorcerer 3097 (for 1063 so 3779 is his 846 name 3686 by interpretation 3177 ) withstood 436 them 846, seeking 2212 to turn away 1294 the deputy 446 from 575 the faith 4102.

Do you really thing that God would use sorcerers and horoscopists to go "honor His Son the child Jesus"? I don't think so.
But Lucifer-Satan would.

God bless, BORN AGAIN
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
Yes, I believe God used these wise men. Betty
 

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Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
John 19:22
Then Pilate answered, "What I have written I have written."
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
Mat 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.


Mat 2:12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.

the wise men worshipped Jesus. Satan would not send anyone to worship Jesus.
betty


Mat 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:


Mat 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
 

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Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
TEXASGRANDMA writes

quote:

---

Mat 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

the wise men worshipped Jesus. Satan would not send anyone to worship Jesus. {bold by BORN AGAIN}

---

Satan would not send anyone to worship Jesus...are you kidding? The New Agers all worship Jesus.

In their case, they worship Jesus as an Ascended Master and not as the Biblical Savior of the world, but worship Jesus for being an Ascended Master, that they most certainly do. I know, I was a New Ager before I became a bornagain Christian.

God bless, BORN AGAIN
 

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Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
From the Internet: "Who were the Magi"?

Herodotus (I, ci) is our authority for supposing that the Magi were the sacred caste of the Medes. They provided priests for Persia, and, regardless of dynastic vicissitudes, ever kept up their dominating religious influence.

To the head of this caste, Nergal Sharezar, Jeremiah gives the title Rab-Mag, "Chief Magus" (Jeremiah 39:3, 39:13, in Hebrew original — Septuagint and Vulgate translations are erroneous here).

After the downfall of Assyrian and Babylonian power, the religion of the Magi held sway in Persia. Cyrus completely conquered the sacred caste; his son Cambyses severely repressed it.

The Magians revolted and set up Gaumata, their chief, as King of Persia under the name of Smerdis. He was, however, murdered (521 B.C.), and Darius became king. This downfall of the Magi was celebrated by a national Persian holiday called magophonia (Her., III, lxiii, lxxiii, lxxix).

Still the religious influence of this priestly caste continued throughout the rule of the Achaemenian dynasty in Persia (Ctesias, "Persica", X-XV); and is not unlikely that at the time of the birth of Christ it was still flourishing under the Parthian dominion. Strabo (XI, ix, 3) says that the Magian priests formed one of the two councils of the Parthian Empire.

Biblical Evidence

The Greek word magoi often has the meaning of "magicians", in both the Old and New Testaments (see Acts 8:9; 13:6, 8; also the Greek Septuagint of Daniel 1:20; 2:2, 2:10, 2:27; 4:7; 5:7, 5:11, 5:15).

Daniel 1
20 And in all matters of wisdom and understanding, that the king enquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians {Greek LXX, magoi} and astrologers that were in all his realm.

Daniel 2
2 Then the king commanded to call the magicians {Greek LXX, magoi}, and the astrologers, and the sorcerers, and the Chaldeans, for to shew the king his dreams. So they came and stood before the king.

10 The Chaldeans answered before the king, and said, There is not a man upon the earth that can shew the king's matter: therefore there is no king, lord, nor ruler, that asked such things at any magician {Greek LXX, magos}, or astrologer, or Chaldean.

27 Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, The secret which the king has demanded cannot the wise men, the astrologers, the magicians {Greek LXX, magoi}, the soothsayers, shew unto the king.

BORN AGAIN adds: And look what company these fellows are keeping: astrologers and soothsayers.

Daniel 4
7 Then came in the magicians {Greek LXX, magoi} and the astrologers, the Chaldeans, and the soothsayers: and I told the dream before them; but they did not make known unto me the interpretation thereof.

when it is added that these fellows came from the east, you get the picture, don't you?

God bless, BORN AGAIN
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
there were NO New Agers in Bible days. New Agers do NOT worship Jesus. The wise men did.
betty

new age agenda:
Belief in Deity
God is the impersonal life force, consciousness, ultimate truth and reality, the incorporeal, formless cosmic order personified within all people and matter. God is all and all are God.

• Incarnations
Most believe there are no particular incarnations to worship, as all in the universe are embodiments of God.

• Origin of Universe and Life
The universe, life, and matter were not created by God but "are" God. The universe and life emerged out of the creative power of the eternal universal life force.
-----------
does this sound like a group that prays to Jesus.
I don't think so
 

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Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
TEXASGRANDMA writes

quote:

---

there were NO New Agers in Bible days. New Agers do NOT worship Jesus. The wise men did.

---

TEXASGRANDA, I'm sorry to tell you that the Babylonians invented New Age.

They didn't call it "New Age", they called it astrology and divination and familiar spirits and soothsaying.

Our "New Agers" also believe in astrology, tarot cards, ouija board, psychic, the Christ, and always in religions other than being saved only by the cross and exchanged life of Jesus for ours.

The Babylonians invented astrology and southsaying and black magic:

Ezekiel 21:21
For the king of Babylon stood at the parting of the way, at the head of the two ways, to use divination: he made his arrows bright, he consulted with images, he looked in the liver.

Acts 16:16
And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much gain by soothsaying.

New Age is the same thing, invented in Babylon, except New Age is a more modern name.

God bless, BORN AGAIN
"I will make you fishers of men"
 

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Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
God bless you;

Romans 14:
1: Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2: For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3: Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4: Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5: One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6: He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7: For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8: For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9: For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10: But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11: For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12: So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13: Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14: I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15: But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
16: Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
17: For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
18: For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19: Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
20: For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21: It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22: Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23: And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.


For this old greybeard it is difficult to divest ones-self of 5 decades of Christ's Mass tradition. The Lord is leading me gently into focussing on what is Biblical and to refrain from that which is not.

I do not force my perceptions on my family. We will probably put up the same lovely artifical fir tree we have used for the last quarter century. There will be Christ's Mass presents under the twinkling glow of the tree lights and ornaments. The nativity scene will take prominance in the center of our dining room table.

We will probably join our children and grandbabies at the candlelight service on Christ's Mass eve.

For myself alone the Lord is leading me to recognize that the majority of the Christ's Mass celebrations, including the date are from the Roman Catholic and pagan traditions.

The coming of and Incarnation of God as a wee-babe in that feeidng shelf over 2000 years ago is the greatest Gift of God, and His ministry and His glorious Redemption of Calvary the only hope for all humanity. We can truly honor it in our hearts and in our lives, and in our praises and reverence.

For myself alone the Lord is leading me into an awareness that in the righteous reign of the Root of Jessie, Christ's Mass will not be celebrated, but instead a Feast will be observed when shepherds would have been camped out under a midnight sky, not the rainy/snowy season of Israel's December, and that during the celebration when the Inn would have been filled.

Zech. 14:
16: And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Unlike Scrooge after his night of epiphany, who from thence-forward kept Christmas in his heart, I find myself no longer keeping Christ's Mass in my heart. My heart is focussed more and more on Christ Jesus our Lord and His eternal Word and truth.

Praise the Lord for my precious Brothers and Sisters in Christ Jesus. The primary time when the Coming of Christ is celebrated, advertised, and the doors of celebration opened and available to the lost is at Christmas. This season and Easter are the times when so many of the lost hear of Christ, which is the imperative. I do not judge each precious one who desires to celebrate the Coming of Christ at Christmas.

It is just for this old man he finds himself led to a commemoration of the day when God Himself once Tabernachled with lost humanity.
 

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
From the Internet: "Who were the Magi"?
when it is added that these fellows came from the east, you get the picture, don't you?
God bless, BORN AGAIN

---

quote:

---

I'm sorry to tell you that the Babylonians invented New Age.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
whether the wise men were invited the first night or not, they were invited by God and they worshipped the baby Jesus.
that is all that is important.................
betty

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
get over it, they worshipped Jesus
betty

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
and how many unsaved people will attend Church on Christmas Day and get saved? Without Christmas there is no salvation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
I tell you what I am praying about. My Pastor in Houston, asked us to pray that God will use the Christmas season to bring in the lost to Churches and to open their hearts to accept Jesus as their Savior.
betty

I asked both Pastors one in Texas and one in Washington State, and they both said it is not only not a sin to celeberate Christmas but it is a special honor for us to be able to celeberate Christ birth. So don't worry about me.
betty

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
Jesus Christ Super Star was not a Christian movie.
And just because you did not get saved at Christmas, does not mean someone else can't.
betty

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
what takes place in Christian Churches across the world on Christmas Day is Holy.
betty

---

quote:

---

I expected to fight the ACLU but I never thought I would have to fight fellow Christians to keep Jesus as the reason for the season.

These fellow Christians sit back and feel pride because they do not celeberate Christmas but they are in the same bed with athiest and other ACLU card members and sadly this does not bother them.

---

TG, just to keep the record straight, I do celebrate Christmas as a good opportunity to evangelize--and I love colored lights too.

But that does not mean that the Magi were sent by God. But I can see that if someone has bought a crèche which includes "3 wise men", they probably don't want to hear that there are "bad men" in their crèche.

But to repeat, I like Christmas.

God bless, BORN AGAIN
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
I have no clue what Tec Manual of Life is.

All I know is the wise men prayed to Jesus. That is good enough for me.
thank you and God bless you both.
betty
 

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Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
TGRANDMA writes

quote:

---

All I know is the wise men prayed to Jesus.

---

The Bible does not say that they "prayed" to Jesus, only that they "worshipped" Jesus.

Let's not start adding stuff, or I'm going to have to ask you to move this Topic to "Exposing False Teaching".

Oh no, it is already there.

God bless, BORN AGAIN
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
1 : to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power
2 : to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion
intransitive senses : to perform or take part in worship or an act of worship

would satan allow his people to worship Jesus? I don't think so.
betty
 

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Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
TEXASGRANDMA writes

quote:

---

would Satan allow his people to worship Jesus? I don't think so.

---

Lucifer-Satan couldn't care less what his people do, as long as it is not having "faith in salvation thru Jesus", that's the only thing that infuriates Lucifer-Satan. Other than that, Lucifer-Satan is the quintessential "I couldn't care less" kind of boss.

There are lots of New Agers who worship Jesus, but not in the Christian way. The New Agers believe in "the Christ", like "the Buddha" and maintain that any "advanced" person can attain to "the Christ".

And they definitely worship Jesus as an Ascended Master. I know, I used to do it myself.

God bless, BORN AGAIN
 

---

Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
you would go so low as to trash the wise men in order to trash Christmas. Shame on you.
betty
 

---

Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
TEXASGRANDMA says to BORN AGAIN

quote:

---

ou would go so low as to trash the wise men in order to trash Christmas. Shame on you.{bold by BORN AGAIN}

---

Psalm 89:45
The days of his youth have you shortened: you have covered him with shame. Selah.

BORN AGAIN
 

---

Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
not me, I respect the wise men, who worshipped at the feet of my Lord and Savior. Did the relegious leaders of the time, worship at Jesus feet? No!
Did King Herod? No! The wise men led by God brought gifts to Jesus and prayed to Him.
betty
 

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Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
aw...com'on, just return Balthazar, Gaspar, and Melchior to Wal-Mart.

God bless, BORN AGAIN
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/w/e/wethree.htm
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
My heart will not let me do Christmas, but I Am in this world with no way out except by the grave, death, or the rapture.

While I am here I have one purpose to exalt the name and the person of Yeshua!

When some says "Merry Christmas" of "Happy Holiday" I will respond with …

"Yeshua/Jesus is calling, have you heard His Call. There is one way to eternal life, have you called on His name, ask for His Blood to cover your sins? Have you repented of your sins and changed your direction in life.

It is this and this action alone that will set you free to experience a relationship with Yahweh. To experience love, joy, peace, patience, longsuffering, meekness, gentleness, kindness,

Be free from the bondages of traditions of men.

What ever you do, do in Truth with all your heart.

Know Yahweh hates a mixture in faith

Only the pure in heart shall see Yahweh

Guard your heart of a mixture with this world and a mixture of the things of Yahweh

A divided heart will not enter heaven”
 

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Posted by shadowmaker (Member # 3696) on :
 
Joy to the world! The Lord is come:
let earth receive her King!
Let every heart prepare him room,
and heaven and nature sing.

Joy to the earth! the Saviour reigns:
let men their songs employ,
while fields and floods, rocks,hills and plains
repeat the sounding joy.

No more let sins and sorrows grow,
nor thorns infest the ground:
he comes to make his blessings flow
far as the curse is found.


He rules the earth with truth and grace,
and makes the nations prove
the glories of his righteousnes
and wonders of his love.
 

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Posted by shadowmaker (Member # 3696) on :
 
Mary did you know
That your baby boy will one day walk on water?
Mary did you know
That your baby boy will save our sons and daughters?
Did you know
That your baby boy has come to make you new?
This child that you've delivered
Will soon deliver you

Mary did you know
That your baby boy will give sight to a blind man?
Mary did you know
That your baby boy will calm the storm with his hand?
Did you know
That your baby boy has walked where angels trod?
And when you kiss your little baby
You've kissed the face of God

Mary did you know?
The blind will see
The deaf will hear
The dead will live again
The lame will leap
The dumb will speak
The praises of the Lamb

Mary did you know
That your baby boy is Lord of all creation?
Mary did you know
That your baby boy will one day rule the nations?
Did you know
That your baby boy is heaven's perfect Lamb?
This sleeping child you're holding
Is the Great I Am
 

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Posted by shadowmaker (Member # 3696) on :
 
I'm Getting Nuttin' For Christmas
Broke my bat on Johnny's head;
Somebody snitched on me.
I hid a frog in sister's bed;
Somebody snitched on me.
I spilled some ink on Mommy's rug;
I made Tommy eat a bug;
Bought some gum with a penny slug;
Somebody snitched on me.

CHORUS: Oh,
I'm gettin' nuttin' for Christmas
Mommy and Daddy are mad.
I'm gettin' nuttin' for Christmas
'Cause I ain't been nuttin' but bad.

I won't be seeing Santa Claus;
Somebody snitched on me.
He won't come visit me because
Somebody snitched on me.
Next year I'll be going straight;
Next year I'll be good, just wait
I'd start now, but it's too late;
Somebody snitched on me.
So you better be good whatever you do
'Cause if you're bad, I'm warning you,
You'll get nuttin' for Christmas.
 

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Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 4667) on :
 
Shadowmaker,

Thank you very much for your postings of Christmas songs! God bless you very much!
 

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Posted by Thunderz7 (Member # 31) on :
 
Psalms 118:24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.

The LORD made Dec.25th, i will rejoice and be glad.

I will worship the LORD on Dec. 25th.

I will not declare Dec. 25th to be Jesus, birthday, that is a lie.

I will go nowhere that day that preaches Dec. 25th as the birthday of Jesus and partake of the lie.

A lie is not truth, there is nothing holy in a lie.


Lk. ch. 1, is a perfect guideline to find the birthay of Jesus.
It takes you to the fall season, late Seprember to early October, the Feast of Trumpets, Day of Attonement and Feast of Tabernacles.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

dwelt = tabernacled

T7
 

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Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
This article by Barry Setterfield, entitled "The Christmas Star", is an interesting read. There was a great deal of research went into the article.

http://www.setterfield.org/star.htm
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
HisGrace,
Some Christians hate Christmas so much, that they are willing to bad mouth everything about Christmas including the wise men.
betty

---

Well lets look to the "Tec Manual of Life" (The KJV Bible)

My answers come from the text http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4383973
and
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4618962

That the "wise men" were not invited to the birth of our Lord but found him sometime later at a house as a child.(not babe in a manger)

ONLY THE SHEPARDS WERE INVITED THAT NIGHT.

Another point it never says how manny "wise men" were there , only the "3" different types of gifts.
~
11] And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
~

Luke.2
[8] And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.

[9] And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
[10] And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
[11] For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

[12] And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
 

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Posted by shadowmaker (Member # 3696) on :
 
Holly Jolly Christmas


Have a holly, jolly Christmas;
It's the best time of the year
I don't know if there'll be snow
but have a cup of cheer
Have a holly, jolly Christmas;
And when you walk down the street
Say Hello to friends you know
and everyone you meet

Oh
ho
the mistletoe
hung where you can see;
Somebody waits for you;
Kiss her once for me
Have a holly jolly Christmas
and in case you didn't hear
Oh by golly
have a holly
jolly Christmas this year
 

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Posted by shadowmaker (Member # 3696) on :
 
Joy to the world! The Lord is come:
let earth receive her King!
Let every heart prepare him room,
and heaven and nature sing.

Joy to the earth! the Saviour reigns:
let men their songs employ,
while fields and floods, rocks,hills and plains
repeat the sounding joy.

No more let sins and sorrows grow,
nor thorns infest the ground:
he comes to make his blessings flow
far as the curse is found.


He rules the earth with truth and grace,
and makes the nations prove
the glories of his righteousnes
and wonders of his love.
 

---

Posted by shadowmaker (Member # 3696) on :
 
Oh little town of Bethlehem, how still we see thee lie
Above thy deep and dreamless sleep the silent stars go by
Yet in the dark streets shineth, the everlasting light
The hopes and fears of all the years are met in thee tonight.

For Christ is born of Mary, and gathered all above
While mortals sleep the angels keep their watch of wondering love
Oh morning stars together, proclaim the holy birth.
And praises sing to God the king, and peace to men on earth.

How silently, how silently, the wondrous gift is given
So God imparts to human hearts the blessings of his heaven
No ear may hear his coming, but in this world of sin
Where meek souls will receive him still, the dear Christ enters in.

Oh holy Child of Bethlehem, descend to us we pray
Cast out our sin and enter in, be born in us today
We hear the Christmas angels, the great glad tidings tell
O come to us, abide with us, our lord Emanuel.
 

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Posted by shadowmaker (Member # 3696) on :
 
O Holy Night
The stars are brightly shining
It is the night of our dear Savior's birth
Long lay the world in sin and error pining
'Til He appeared and the soul felt its worth
A thrill of hope, the weary world rejoices
For yonder breaks a new and glorious morn!
Fall on your knees,
O hear the angels' voices!
O night divine,
O night when Christ was born
O night divine,
O night divine,
O night divine!

Led by the light of faith serenely beaming,
With glowing hearts by His cradle we stand.
So led by light of a star sweetly gleaming,
Here came the wise men from Orient land.
The King of kings lay thus in lowly manger,
In all our trials born to be our Friend!
He knows our need; to our weakness is no stranger.
Behold your King; before Him lowly bend!
Behold your King; before Him lowly bend!

Truly He taught us to love one another;
His law is love and His Gospel is peace.
Chains shall He break for the slave is our brother
And in His Name all oppression shall cease.
Sweet hymns of joy in grateful chorus raise we,
Let all within us praise His holy Name!
Christ is the Lord! O praise His name forever!
His power and glory evermore proclaim!
His power and glory evermore proclaim!
 

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Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on :
 
Church of God, Awake!
Words: Charles H. Gabriel, 1856-1932
Music: Wallace I. Coburn


1. O Church of God, awake, awake;
Seize fast thy sword and gird with might!
The hosts of darkness mighty are,
and bold and strong they press the fight;
but see thy Captain leads thee on,
He Who hath conquered ev'ry foe.
Thou needst not fear, but follow fast
and go with Him where He shall go.

Refrain
Awake, awake, O Church of God;
Arouse in might, to battle go!
See, see, the hosts of darkness stand,
and gathers fast the haughty foe!
Awake! awake for Christ thy Lord,
Awake! gird on the shield and sword.
Press hard the fight, no respite make;
O Church of God, awake, awake!

2. The bars of death He tore apart;
The stone, the guard, Ah what were they
when He shall rise, the mighty Lord
and usher in the triumph day?
He, Who arose in might and pow'r
and lives a victor over all,
Will lead thee on to victory
if thou but hear his battle call.

Refrain

3. Up then, resolve to valiant be,
and force the fight till it is won;
Stay not thy hand, and thou shalt win
since Christ, they Capitan, leads thee on.
What tho' the conflict long may be,
and when thy weapons are laid down,
thou shalt be wounded, weak and worn?
Thy Lord in honor thee shalt crown.

Refrain
 

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Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on :
 
Christ, Our Passover
Words and music: Ross Jutsum

1. Jesus knew that the time to depart had now arrived
He must go to the Father up above.
Having loved His disciples unto the very end,
Now He showed them the fullness of His love.

CHORUS
"This bread is my body broken for you;
DO THIS IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME.
This cup, the new covenant is my blood,
by which you shall all be redeemed."
Now Christ is our Passover sacrificed;
eternal life showed us the way,
We'll take up our cross and DENY OURSELVES
as we faithfully follow each day.

2. And while we were still sinners, Christ died for all our sins,
Gave His life as a sacrifice for all;
Showing love and compassion for all His family,
Jesus Christ, He has reconciled us all.

CHORUS

3. Let us focus our eyes on our Savior and our King,
As perfecter and author of our faith.
for the joy set before Him, our Lord endured the cross
So that we all would run and win the race.

CHORUS

4. He will never forsake us, He'll never leave His sons
And His daughters will never be alone.
Interceding for sisters and brothers that He loves;
Serving all of God's children from His throne.

CHORUS
 

---

Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on :
 
For Thy Law is Truth and Love
Words: from Psalm 119:145-160
Music: Dwight Armstrong


1. With my whole heart have I cried to Thee;
O Eternal hear my prayer;
for I keep Thy law and meditate
on Thy precepts night and day.
I am up before the dawn to pray;
For my hope is in Thy word.
Hear my voice according to Thy great love
Save me Lord, and quicken me.

2. My pursuers come with malice near;
And Thy law they do not keep;
But Eternal, Thou art near to me
and all Thy commands are true;
Thou hast founded them forever, Lord,
They are valid for all time.
Look on m affliction, deliver me;
For I love Thy law, O God.

3. I do not forget Thy law, O God;
How I love all Thy commands;
But the wicked do not seek Thy law
and Thy way is far from them.
Many are my persecutors, Lord,
Yet I never turned from Thee.
O consider how I do love Thy law;
For Thy law is truth and love.
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
This was on the Church Bulletin this morning from the Church I grew up in.

What is Christmas?

A home with gleaming windows
Of dancing candle light,
Glistening stars of silver
High o'er a blanket of shimmering white.

Crimson poinsettias 'mid holly and pine,
Shining balls on a tree,
Happy children's faces
Makes Christmas precious to me.

Candy canes of red and white
Presents with satin bows,
A friendly chat with a loved one
By an amber log that glows.

A Bible on the mantle
Bright eyes of a girl and a boy
As they hear the Christmas story
Singing Christmas joys.

A tiny Babe in a manger
God's gift from heaven above,
The very reason for Christmas
Perfected through His love.
-----------------Ruth H. Underhill
 

---

Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on :
 
TYPICAL

Jesus AT THE END

AN AFTER THOUGHT ONLY
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
TYPICAL,
look for the tiny's thing to complain about Christmas. But then Scooge is usually cranky.


http://www.angelfire.com/wi/KarensPages2/LegendCandyCane.html

http://www.monroe.k12.la.us/mcs/showcase/holiday/music/oholy3.html
 

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Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
A tremendous teaching from Dale,(becauseHelives),on the True Coming of the Prince of Peace:

http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=53;t=000085
 

---

Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by wparr:
TYPICAL

Jesus AT THE END

AN AFTER THOUGHT ONLY

---

Very typical. Personally, I prefer the description of Jesus from Revelation 1.

The RCC likes to portray Jesus either as a weak helpless baby in a manger or hanging dead on the cross; not to mention that He also needs Mary's help. Revelation 1 must not be in their bible either.
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/6420AP_WA_Holiday_Problems.html


This is why I get so angry at Christians who support the ACLU on this. Christians who fight Jesus in Christmas are in the bed with the ACLU in making Christmas into Winter Holidays. One by one our rights as an American to have our Relegious celeberations are being taken away. I can't imagine why a Christian would give them up without a fight and encourage other Christians to take up the banner with the ACLU. I honestly believe they will answser to God for this.
betty
 

---

Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
bump
 

---

Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on :
 
The ACLU is NOT a threat to my faith.

I can pray ANYTIME I want to - ANYWHERE I want to

I can Worship ANYTIME I want to - ANYWHERE I want to


Kids can pray in school ANYTIME they want to - they don't have to be spoken out loud for Yahweh to hear them.


I DON'T want the teacher or principle to lead the children in prayer -

What if they are muslim or hindu or wiccan?

What if they pray in tongues and your denomination thinks tounges are wrong?


A teacher can pray for their students ANYTIME they want to - doesn't have to be outloud.

If they think they have to pray outloud then aren't they doing it for others to hear.


I don't want the schools to teach the children about God

Which faith or denomination are they going to teach?

That's the PARENTS responsibility.


I don't want schools and teachers to force THEIR faith and interpetation on the children

What if you're buddist, should your child be forced to celebrate christmas

What if your kid's teacher is buddist, do you want them to force their beliefs on the kids?

What if you understand the pagan roots of christmas and easter and you don't want your children to participate, you think they should be forced to?


The schools funtion IS NOT to worship, or determine HOW to worship.

That's the family's place and the church's place.


Remeber HOW and WHY this country was formed

By christians who didn't want the government to control or influence their practice of faith.


It is OUR job to witness to the lost, NOT the school's or government's job to force it.


If you own a store and aren't christian don't you have the right not to put up merry christmas stuff?

Or worse yet: you are a christian who understands the pagan roots of christmas and easter, and you own a chain of stores and don't want merry christmas or hoppy easter, don't they have that right.


You can still celebrate christmas and easter they way you want - ACLU is not taking that away.

Churches can still celebrate christmas and easter they way they wish - ACLU is not taking that away.


I don't want you making me practice your faith, your way.


I don't want my town or state to make me practice faith as others determine.


I don't want my tax $ to be used for celebrating religion - ANY religion, that's my job to determine HOW and WHERE my money is used for God.


I don't want the President to determine my practice of faith, because I think his stinks (he beleives christians and muslims and buddists worship the same God)


The ACLU is not threating to stop me from going down to the truck stop chapel and minister Yahshua to people.


If an owner of a truckstop DOESN'T want a chapel, or worship service at his truckstop, he has the freedom and right.


What specific way is the ACLU stopping you from practicing your faith?
 

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Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on :
 
TG,

Please look back at some of your posts. Does it not strike you odd that they are all secular stories and songs? None of them are scriptural. That in itself ought to tell you something. There is also quite a bit of venom in some of your posts. That's just not like you.

On top of that, you have taken to accusing brethren who have a solid record of standing for biblical Truth, of siding with the ACLU. I know that you know better than that. We do not side with the ACLU. We side with Truth. The ACLU has a completely different agenda and motivation than we do. This is about honoring our Lord in His Truth, not the RCC's warped version. Quite frankly, bringing the ACLU into this discussion is ridiculous. It has absolutely nothing to do with what we're saying. It appears that your emotions are clouding your judgement and that your head is "in the world", not "in the Word".

Think about it. Who do you usually side with on this board in the battle for Truth? Who do you side with now in defending Christmas? You are now vehemently against those who are usually your fellow warriors. Red flag?

We who are on the side of Truth have not changed. We are still fighting the same battle. It is you who has switched sides and now fights for fables and man-made traditions; all of which have solid roots in paganism and RCC garbage, not scripture.

Have I changed? No. Has Caretaker or HFHS changed? No. How about Soft Touch, wparr, or WildB? No. We are all still here on the same side of Truth. You accuse us of siding with the enemy; the ACLU. I'm afraid it is you who has sided with the grandaddy of all enemies on this one.

I love you as a dear sister in Christ TG. I hope you know that. I say none of this with any malice or ill will. I am simply disappointed in your stance.

I do wish you safe travels and a blessed time with your family.
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
The truth is the ACLU is fighting tooth and nail to remove Jesus from Christmas and you and your friends are doing the same. This makes you and the ACLU buddies. This is the truth.
betty

As far as changing. I have loved Christmas since I was a toddler.
 

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Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on :
 
HOW is the ACLU taking Jesus out of Christmas??

In what way has it affected YOUR celebration?
 

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Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
The truth is the ACLU is fighting tooth and nail to remove Jesus from Christmas and you and your friends are doing the same. This makes you and the ACLU buddies. This is the truth.
betty

As far as changing. I have loved Christmas since I was a toddler.

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quote:

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Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
Jesus has always been in Christmas. It is the ACLU and their friends that are trying to change that.
Merry Christmas,
betty

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quote:

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The ACLU is NOT a threat to my faith.

I can pray ANYTIME I want to - ANYWHERE I want to

I can Worship ANYTIME I want to - ANYWHERE I want to


Kids can pray in school ANYTIME they want to - they don't have to be spoken out loud for Yahweh to hear them.


I DON'T want the teacher or principle to lead the children in prayer -

What if they are muslim or hindu or wiccan?

What if they pray in tongues and your denomination thinks tounges are wrong?


A teacher can pray for their students ANYTIME they want to - doesn't have to be outloud.

If they think they have to pray outloud then aren't they doing it for others to hear.


I don't want the schools to teach the children about God

Which faith or denomination are they going to teach?

That's the PARENTS responsibility.


I don't want schools and teachers to force THEIR faith and interpetation on the children

What if you're buddist, should your child be forced to celebrate christmas

What if your kid's teacher is buddist, do you want them to force their beliefs on the kids?

What if you understand the pagan roots of christmas and easter and you don't want your children to participate, you think they should be forced to?


The schools funtion IS NOT to worship, or determine HOW to worship.

That's the family's place and the church's place.


Remeber HOW and WHY this country was formed

By christians who didn't want the government to control or influence their practice of faith.


It is OUR job to witness to the lost, NOT the school's or government's job to force it.


If you own a store and aren't christian don't you have the right not to put up merry christmas stuff?

Or worse yet: you are a christian who understands the pagan roots of christmas and easter, and you own a chain of stores and don't want merry christmas or hoppy easter, don't they have that right.


You can still celebrate christmas and easter they way you want - ACLU is not taking that away.

Churches can still celebrate christmas and easter they way they wish - ACLU is not taking that away.


I don't want you making me practice your faith, your way.


I don't want my town or state to make me practice faith as others determine.


I don't want my tax $ to be used for celebrating religion - ANY religion, that's my job to determine HOW and WHERE my money is used for God.


I don't want the President to determine my practice of faith, because I think his stinks (he beleives christians and muslims and buddists worship the same God)


The ACLU is not threating to stop me from going down to the truck stop chapel and minister Yahshua to people.


If an owner of a truckstop DOESN'T want a chapel, or worship service at his truckstop, he has the freedom and right.

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I thought of a page of things that I could say regarding this post... but I dont want to take from it. So the best thing that I can say is Amen!


 

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Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 4667) on :
 
You need to research all that the ACLU is doing in their attempts to remove all christian things and events in this nation for you still do not know. My notification lists all of it and it is quite a list! To deny what they are doing or to ignore it is to bury your head in the sand.
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
Yes, Linda your faith is secure, but have you no feelings for the unsaved? Have you no feelings for the young people who growing up today thinking Christmas is only about Santa Clause. GramaJo and I both signed many petitions this year to fight the ACLU and their attempt to remove Jesus from Christmas, only to come here and fight the same battle with Christians who seem to have more in common with the ACLU then other Christians. Frankly if I had not been asked privately to stay I would leave, simply because I am tired of having to defend myself.
betty
 

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Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 4667) on :
 
To those who refuse to believe that the ACLU is not doing anything wrong, you need to wake up and find out exactly each thing they are attempting to do in removing christian things and events. However I know you cannot stand to think you are wrong so you'll just continue burying your head in the sand where you're content to be! Those of us who do honor and celebrate Jesus's birth will do so and you cannot ruin it so you might as well quit trying to ruin it for us because you will not succeed whatsoever! Merry Christmas to you!
 

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Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Betty; I love you in the Lord and I have asked you to stay as well privately. You have felt the need to defend yourself. I have not asked you defend yourself. I have not attacked you. I have called you no names; I have not accused you of anything. I have only stated the truth that Jesus was not born on December 25th and the roots of most of the traditions of Christmas are pagan. I have rebuked you for name calling and mean accusations and implications that you have made against others. I have rebuked you for falsely stating that the Roman Church was the only Church; and for your comments on forced Christianity and I would do so again as there is grave error in those things. I could not love you as a sister and do less.

I have great feelings for the lost; I do not care much that children grow up with the fantasy of Santa Clause. I and my children grew up with the fantasy of Santa Clause. What I care more about is that Children grow up with the truth of Christ. I am much more concerned about the children that grow up with a Jesus that is not Jesus, and Jesus the Messiah and tabernacle of God- Emanuel who is God with us and tabernacled among us was not born on December 25th.

I believe that I did my own children a huge great disservice by teaching them about Christmas and telling them all the lies that I told them... I raised my children to do what the heathen did; I taught them to change the times; I taught them lies and what is worse I did not know or teach them the truth.

I am so thankful that God gave me the years to teach my children the truth. The truth is so miraculous, so amazing, so glorifying.

Santa, and trees and tinsel and lights and all the sights and smells and sound of Christmas as wonderful to the senses and the emotions as they are cannot compare to the absolute majesty of God who gave to HIS people a festival hundreds of years before Christ that testified of HIS SON - the Messiah who would come to them in the fall at the end of the harvest; who would be the reason for their rejoicing - Tabernacles is the feast of Rejoicing; who would be for them Salvation; Tabernacles is the feast of our Salvation; and who would himself be a tabernacle like the first tabernacle in the wilderness the place where God did Abide and would make me to come to abide there too. There is nothing about a sleigh or 8 tiny reindeer or elves or a toy shop at the north pole or lists or toys for good boys and girls that can compare with God and what he did that one September evening when he caused Mary and Joseph to be in the City of David and give birth to the infant Jesus out doors under the stars at exactly the appointed time that had been appointed from before the foundation of the world, and in exactly the place that was spoken to David and that it would be at a time that Joseph and Mary would not be headed home after having been counted and taxed, but would be headed to Jerusalem for the Pilgrimage of the Feast of Tabernacles, and that Mary would have just enough days to be pure that her son would be circumcised and presented to the Lord in Jerusalem on the Last Great Day of God's appointed time...a Sabbath day. A day when Kings are appointed..... none of these things happen in winter... this is September... this is Tabernacles, the time of our rejoicing, the time we Cry Hosanna, the time of palm fronds and celebration and appointment of kings; this is the ingathering... the time when the harvest has been gathered and is taken from the threshing floor and from the wine presses and brought into the store house... this is the time of Christ's birth. God ordained it before the foundation of the world and it did not matter that wars had come and gone, empires has risen and fallen, rabbi's had changed times, people had been scattered and gathered... nothing but nothing that man did in the earth made this day to happen on moment before or after its precisely appointed time.

That is a miracle! That is glorious. That is the majesty of God Almighty and though the devil tries to hide all that under sparkle lights and pumpkin pie smells and pretty winter scenes and happy joy filled family memories and neatly wrapped packages and fantasy stories about plump old elves and reindeer with a nose that glows and friends that fly and shopping and commercialism and glitz and even hymns that speak of that Holy Night.... there has to be a little truth. That is what the devil does... a little truth and a whole lot of lie... Hath GOD said???

The devil cannot hide the majesty of what God did in September with all the glitz and warm fuzzy pictures of Christmas. I am so thankful that he could not hide it from me, and I am so thankful that I was given the opportunity to un hide it from my children and I have a great heart for the lost and for the children and that is why I care that when they hear of the miracle of the Birth of Jesus, it is the miracle that GOD did that they hear and not the lie that Satan concocted to try and glitz people over so they don't know what God did.

Tabernacles is still important to God. When Jesus comes back we are going to celebrate tabernacles, and when he comes back the very next festival to come is going to be Tabernacles and the nations are going to learn about Tabernacles and if the nations refuse to give honor to Tabernacles... they are gonna have drought! The feast of Tabernacles is still important to GOD.

Satan tried to out do God with Christmas,... he tried to make a more appealing feast in another month and for some he has succeeded; I was one. I loved Christmas, I loved the sights and the smells and cheer and the presents and the shopping and the baking and the cooking and the decorating and the candles and the fireplace and the songs... oh the songs, my house was filled with songs the Holy ones and the funny ones... Frosty the snowman... was happy jolly soul.. with a corn cob pipe...

But the day I saw what the miracle of Christ's birth really was... the amazing thing that God's perfect amazing unstoppable timing is when He appoints something it is appointed and the Bible is so full of his majesty in this regard and when I saw that... Christmas began to look like a bad make up job and hair doo on the town's madame.

Nothing that the enemy can fabricate can compare to what God has done. Nothing in December speaks of what God was speaking when Mary bore the Christ Child. December is not the time of harvest or the time of bringing into the store room. Winter is not the time of Kings appointment; Winter is not the time the people being led out of bondage in Egypt to the place where they would tabernacle with God... not the time of the Lord's salvation, it just is not the time that God appointed.

For me this is no different an issue than the one that we have stood side by side on. When we lead people to Jesus we need to be sure it is the Jesus and Christ of God that we lead them to, and God's Christ was not born in the winter, but at the time of in gathering, at the time of pilgrimage, at the time of Tabernacles.

That may not mean something to you; but it means a great deal to me, and I am so thankful for being allowed to see it; because it is so much more beautiful and majestic and glorious that the most glorious Christmas day I ever saw or imagined.
 

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Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 4667) on :
 
Dear Betty,

I'm so very happy for you and your husband that you are in Houston, TX visiting with all of your family and I know that you all will have a very blessed wonderful Christmas honoring and celebrating Jesus's birth! My family and I will also be having a very blessed wonderful Christmas as we honor and celebrate Jesus's birth! We will continue to do so each year! God bless you so very much, Betty, and please know how deeply you are appreciated!

With love from your friend,
Joanne
 

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