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Author
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Topic: Why God’s Purpose For The Tribulation Excludes The Church
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
WildB wrote to Eden quote:
I suggest you to learn how to rightly divide the Word before posting again.
Don't be cantankerous, WildB. Not everyone can be as brilliant as you. Rejoice in your salvation.
Romans 15:1
We then who are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
love, Eden
OKy Doky mufuart.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Eden
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posted
WildB wrote to Eden quote:
I suggest you to learn how to rightly divide the Word before posting again.
Don't be cantankerous, WildB. Not everyone can be as brilliant as you. Rejoice in your salvation.
Romans 15:1
We then who are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
love, Eden
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
oneinchrist wrote quote:
Unbelievers need to know and understand that God is loving, but they also need to know and understand that God, at some point in time (which I believe is the rapture) will end His patience and gather and separate us all towards our eternal destination.
At the flood of Noah, the LORD shut the door of the ark:
Genesis 7:16
And they that went in, male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him; and the LORD shut him in.
Luke 17:26
As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
There were no more chances after the LORD shut the door of the ark.
Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
1 Peter 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate and narrow is the way, which leads to life, and few there be that find it.
love, Eden
Your Michel Harrison Hodge-podge again shows your ignorance of the Age of Grace ending in the Harpazo of the Body of Christ.
I suggest you to learn how to Rightly divide the Word before posting again.
Rom.16
[25] Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
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That is all.....
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Eden
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posted
oneinchrist wrote quote:
Unbelievers need to know and understand that God is loving, but they also need to know and understand that God, at some point in time (which I believe is the rapture) will end His patience and gather and separate us all towards our eternal destination.
At the flood of Noah, the LORD shut the door of the ark:
Genesis 7:16
And they that went in, male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him; and the LORD shut him in.
Luke 17:26
As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
There were no more chances after the LORD shut the door of the ark.
Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
1 Peter 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate and narrow is the way, which leads to life, and few there be that find it.
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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posted
The Lord is omniscient, and His timing is always perfect.
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oneinchrist
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Member # 6532
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posted
Revelation 7 (NASB)
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation , and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
What if we(the world) has already entered into the time of Great tribulation? As we speak, Christians are being imprisoned, persecuted, and martyed in various parts of the world. They are dying and entering into the Kingdom of Heaven as the prophecy of the Revelation given to John indicates. If the Great trib has already begun, then (and this gets back to the point that I am trying to stress to fellow followers of Jesus) there is a possiblity that there is not going to be an "additional time of repentance and turning to God" after the coming of Jesus, but a rapture (in the blink of an eye) and sudden wrath that comes upon those who have chosen to reject the Son and His offer of eternal life......The end........scary for the unbelieving, but a welcoming event for us who cant wait to see Jesus and His glorious appearance.
My friends, listen to me.......lets live like there is no tomarrow and Jesus can come at any moment, and like there may not be any more chances to repent after Jesus' coming. Unbelievers need to know and understand that God is loving, but they also need to know and understand that God, at some point in time (which I believe is the rapture) will end His patience and gather and separate us all towards our eternal destination.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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oneinchrist
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Member # 6532
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posted
Revelation 7 (NASB)
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation , and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
What if we(the world) has already entered into the time of Great tribulation? jAs we speak, Christians are being imprisoned, persecuted, and martyed in various parts of the world. They are dying and entering into the Kingdom of Heaven as the prophecy of the Revelation given to John indicates. If the Great trib has already begun, then (and this gets back to the point that I am trying to stress to fellow followers of Jesus) there is not going to be an "additional time of repentance and turning to God" after the coming of Jesus, but a rapture (in the blink of an eye) and sudden wrath that comes those who have chosen to reject the Son and His offer of eternal life......The end........scary for the t unbelieving, but a welcoming event for us who cant wait to see Jesus and His glorious appearance.
My friends, listen to me.......lets live like there is no tomarrow and Jesus can come at any moment, and like there may not be any more chances to repent after Jesus' coming. Unbelievers need to know and understand that God is loving, but they also need to know and understand that God, at some point in time (which I believe is the rapture) will end His patience and gather and separate us all towards our eternal destination.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Caretaker
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Member # 36
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Carol,
I am merely stating what I believe is contained IN the theology of the Pre-trib. belief.......and based on my perceived understanding.....it appears to me that Caretaker doesnt hold to a strict Pre-trib belief.
With love in Christ, Daniel
I look at eschatology from a Biblical context, Daniel, and the Marriage of the Lamb from a Jewish Wedding perspective:
1) the marriage contract or betrothal, which was initiated between the parents of the bride and the representative of the bridegroom. This was usually confirmed by oaths and a gift (dowry) to the bride's family;
(2) the marriage ceremony or wedding procession, which involved the bridegroom and his friends. They would come to the bride's home to take her back to the house of the bridegroom or the bridegroom's father; and
(3) the marriage supper or feast, which would be at the bridegroom's house or his father's
(4) the presentation of the Bride
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi Carol,
I am merely stating what I believe is contained IN the theology of the Pre-trib. belief.......and based on my perceived understanding.....it appears to me that Caretaker doesnt hold to a strict Pre-trib belief.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Carol Swenson
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Member # 6929
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posted
quote:
You know, the "left behinders" who can still be martyed to make it into heaven thing
No one ever taught that here. People will be martyred for their faith. It is their faith in Jesus Christ, not the martyrdom, that assures salvation.
Revelation 7 (NASB)
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation , and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Tribulation Saints, both those martyred and those who survive the Tribulation, will be welcomed into the Millennium Kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ. BUT they will have missed the Marriage Supper of the Lamb that was celebrated soon after the Rapture.
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi Caretaker,
Thank you for your response.
I am somewhat confused now. I thought that you held to the Pre-tribulation belief as sound biblical doctrine.
Doesnt the Pre-trib theology teach that unbelievers can be converted to Christ during the Great tribulation?(You know, the "left behinders" who can still be martyed to make it into heaven thing) .......which is something you do not appear(based on your above response) to believe yourself.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Caretaker
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Member # 36
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Caretaker,
Your post said:
All “Christians” not indwelled with the Holy Spirit (i.e., persons who call themselves Christians but who are not born again) will be left behind on earth—and will not be able to attend the wedding banquet (Matt. 25:11-12).
END
So is there going to be another wedding banquet after the Great Tribulation?....... for those who change their minds about the Lord.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Does not sound like it Daniel. It says to be ready, NOT that we can go and get ready later.
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
It is not lip-service "Christians" Eden/BA/DOB, but those in whose hearts God's Holy Spirit dwells.
External fruit is evidence of the internal presence of God.
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
What does the LORD GOD think about those who would lie to and deceive the brethren?
Good fruit or bad fruit?
I think I would check my oil AND see how my fruit is doing.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Carol Swenson
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posted
The oil here represents the Spirit of God. It isn't something to make fun of.
I would say that yes, Caretaker is filled.
The greatest need of the born again Christian is to be filled with the Holy Spirit. When we are under the control of the Holy Spirit, we will always glorify Jesus Christ. He will be exalted in our speech and in our behavior.
The apostle Paul issued an imperative command when he wrote, “Be filled with the Spirit” (Ephesians 5:18).
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
Caretaker wrote quote:
How is your oil Eden?
I checked it last week and it was about three-quarters below the Full line ... how was your oil the last time you checked, Caretaker? It was probably Full, huh? Or was only Jesus Full?
love, Eden
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Eden
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Caretaker wrote quote:
Because some of the Christians not having the oil (the Holy Spirit)...
ALL Christians receive the down payment of the Holy Spirit once they are saved, else the Resurrected Living Lord Jesus in heaven would not be able to communicate with the new Christian.
John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said to you.
John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth which proceeds from the Father, He shall testify of Me.
John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
Is Jesus departed? Yes He is. Then He has sent the Holy Spirit to each believer, so that Jesus can communicate from heaven with that believer.
Corinthians 1:22
Who also has sealed us and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
2 Corinthians 5:5
Now he who has wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also has given to us the earnest of the Spirit.
Romans 8:27
And He who searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
To repeat what my Christian brother Caretaker wrote quote:
Because some of the Christians not having the oil (the Holy Spirit)...
ALL Christians recieve the Holy Spirit when they believe, else they cannot hear properly from God.
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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posted
 Clear as a bell. One Lord, one Bride, one Wedding Banquet.
quote:
All “Christians” not indwelled with the Holy Spirit (i.e., persons who call themselves Christians but who are not born again) will be left behind on earth—and will not be able to attend the wedding banquet (Matt. 25:11-12). Because some of the Christians not having the oil (the Holy Spirit) will attempt to come to banquet “later” (Matt. 25:11), the interpreter of the passage can be sure that a period of time takes place between the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Christ (which takes place after the banquet—Rev. 19:7-16). Unfortunately, the post-tribulation Rapture viewpoint teaches that the Rapture and the Second Coming are simultaneous events—thus contradicting Christ’s teaching in Matthew 25:11.
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi Caretaker,
Your post said:
All “Christians” not indwelled with the Holy Spirit (i.e., persons who call themselves Christians but who are not born again) will be left behind on earth—and will not be able to attend the wedding banquet (Matt. 25:11-12).
END
So is there going to be another wedding banquet after the Great Tribulation?....... for those who change their minds about the Lord.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
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posted
quote:
The post-tribulation Rapture fails to harmonize with the Parable of the Ten Virgins (Matt. 25:1-13).
The first century Jewish betrothal was unlike the typical Gentile engagement of today. In the Jewish betrothal, the bridegroom, after proposing to his loved one, would “go away” to his “father’s house” to “make a place” for them to live on the father’s land. Often he would be away for a year while he completed their home. Then, when the home was ready and all the arrangements had been made for the wedding feast, the bridegroom, in a touch of Jewish romance, would come for his bride unexpectedly, usually in the middle of the night. The bride, of course, was to be alert and ready for his return, eager to have their marriage consummated. To be fully prepared (after all, her groom might come for her in the middle of the night), she would have to have her lamp trimmed with oil so that she would have sufficient light to go out to greet him. And so it is to be with the Church, the Bride of Christ (Eph. 5:22-32; Rev. 19:7). All Christians indwelled with the Holy Spirit (the “oil”) are to be alert and ready (Matt. 25:13) for an unexpected, any-moment coming of the Bridegroom (Christ) to take them to the Father’s home for the consummation of their wedding (the completion and perfection of their salvation) and for the subsequent wedding banquet prepared for them by the Father. All “Christians” not indwelled with the Holy Spirit (i.e., persons who call themselves Christians but who are not born again) will be left behind on earth—and will not be able to attend the wedding banquet (Matt. 25:11-12). Because some of the Christians not having the oil (the Holy Spirit) will attempt to come to banquet “later” (Matt. 25:11), the interpreter of the passage can be sure that a period of time takes place between the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Christ (which takes place after the banquet—Rev. 19:7-16). Unfortunately, the post-tribulation Rapture viewpoint teaches that the Rapture and the Second Coming are simultaneous events—thus contradicting Christ’s teaching in Matthew 25:11.
http://revelationalive.net/materials/papers/post-trib-rapture/
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hello again Caretaker,
Your post stated the following:
The post-tribulation Rapture fails to harmonize with the Parable of the Ten Virgins (Matt. 25:1-13).
and
Unfortunately, the post-tribulation Rapture viewpoint teaches that the Rapture and the Second Coming are simultaneous events—thus contradicting Christ’s teaching in Matthew 25:11.
END
I am having a hard time understanding how one single passage (Matthew 25:11) from the parable of the virgins could prove Pre-trib is right and Post-trib is wrong. How does the parable of the virgins show us the supposed chronology of end-time events?
The claim that Post-tribbers hold to the view that the "rapture" and "second coming" are simeltaneous events.........I do not know much about. But, as for me, I perceive from the scriptures that the "catching away" and "the coming of the Lord to take out the anti-Christ and establish His kingdom on earth" are separate events in the sense of being both unique and different fullfillments. It is possible, I think, that "The Day of the Lord" is a wording that carries the idea of a "chain of events" that will more or less begin with the "rapture" and finally culminate with the creation of the new heaven and earth(as opposed to a 24hr countdown type Day of the Lord).
With that being said, I still do not understand how you see a clear expression of chronology(what comes first, then next) just from the parable of the virgins.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Genesis 4:13
... My punishment is greater than I can bear.
Eden
Romans 2:
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
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posted
Genesis 4:13
... My punishment is greater than I can bear.
Eden
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Caretaker
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posted
Eden/BA/deceiver of Brethren diverting down a false rabbit trail:
quote:
To repeat what Caretaker said to oneinchrist
quote:Don't be one of the five foolish without oil in the lamp and of whom Christ says, "I know you not".
oneinchrist is already a Christian, so oneinchrist is a wise virgin and Jesus already knows oneinchrist.
Matthew 10
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I also confess before my Father who is in heaven.
Luke 12:8
Also I say to you, Whosoever shall confess Me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God.
oneinchrist has confessed Jesus MANY TIMES before men, so both God the Father and the angels of God KNOW oneinchrist already.
love, Eden
As with the Word of God, Eden/BA/DOB you have taken what I wrote to Daniel out of the context of the posting.
quote:
Its not a salvation issue Daniel. The Word says in 2 Cor. 6:2 that today is the day of salvation. The Word also declares that those who do not follow Christ face being deceived by the AC.
It is imperative for each person to receive Christ and to be ready for His Coming for the Bride.
Don't be one of the five foolish without oil in the lamp and of whom Christ says, "I know you not".
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
Not once did I question Daniel's own faith or walk with Christ, but was addressing his concern:
quote:
the unbeleiving could be mislead to think that they will be given another chance to repent if they miss the first train out. We could be misleading many people into procrastination(complacency) and thus doing the work of the devil, even contributing unintentionally to the destruction of their souls.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
Advanced Member
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Caretaker wrote to oneinchrist quote:
Don't be one of the five foolish without oil in the lamp and of whom Christ says, "I know you not".
When Jesus first told that parable, He was addressing Israel-Judah, and He was saying that those who accept Him as Messiah are compared to five wise virgins, and those who do not accept Him as Messiah are compared to five foolish virgins.
I believe that everything that happened to Israel-Judah is an example of what will happen to the people of the world when the Lord comes the second time.
That is, in our time, the five wise virgins represent those people in the world who HAVE accepted Jesus as the Messiah and He KNOWS them, and the five foolish virgins are those people in the world who have NOT accepted Jesus as the Messiah and He DOES NOT know them.
To repeat what Caretaker said to oneinchrist quote:
Don't be one of the five foolish without oil in the lamp and of whom Christ says, "I know you not".
oneinchrist is already a Christian, so oneinchrist is a wise virgin and Jesus already knows oneinchrist.
Matthew 10
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I also confess before my Father who is in heaven.
Luke 12:8
Also I say to you, Whosoever shall confess Me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God.
oneinchrist has confessed Jesus MANY TIMES before men, so both God the Father and the angels of God KNOW oneinchrist already.
love, Eden
Marr. 25:
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Those who walk with Christ have the Holy Spirit dwelling within, oil in their lamps.
There are those whose fruit bears question as to the indwelling presence of God in their hearts.
How is your oil Eden/BA/deceiver of Brethren?
The Lord is returning to gather His Bride for the Wedding feast in Glory.
The post-tribulation Rapture fails to harmonize with the Parable of the Ten Virgins (Matt. 25:1-13).
The first century Jewish betrothal was unlike the typical Gentile engagement of today. In the Jewish betrothal, the bridegroom, after proposing to his loved one, would “go away” to his “father’s house” to “make a place” for them to live on the father’s land. Often he would be away for a year while he completed their home. Then, when the home was ready and all the arrangements had been made for the wedding feast, the bridegroom, in a touch of Jewish romance, would come for his bride unexpectedly, usually in the middle of the night. The bride, of course, was to be alert and ready for his return, eager to have their marriage consummated. To be fully prepared (after all, her groom might come for her in the middle of the night), she would have to have her lamp trimmed with oil so that she would have sufficient light to go out to greet him. And so it is to be with the Church, the Bride of Christ (Eph. 5:22-32; Rev. 19:7). All Christians indwelled with the Holy Spirit (the “oil”) are to be alert and ready (Matt. 25:13) for an unexpected, any-moment coming of the Bridegroom (Christ) to take them to the Father’s home for the consummation of their wedding (the completion and perfection of their salvation) and for the subsequent wedding banquet prepared for them by the Father. All “Christians” not indwelled with the Holy Spirit (i.e., persons who call themselves Christians but who are not born again) will be left behind on earth—and will not be able to attend the wedding banquet (Matt. 25:11-12). Because some of the Christians not having the oil (the Holy Spirit) will attempt to come to banquet “later” (Matt. 25:11), the interpreter of the passage can be sure that a period of time takes place between the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Christ (which takes place after the banquet—Rev. 19:7-16). Unfortunately, the post-tribulation Rapture viewpoint teaches that the Rapture and the Second Coming are simultaneous events—thus contradicting Christ’s teaching in Matthew 25:11.
http://revelationalive.net/materials/papers/post-trib-rapture/
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
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Caretaker wrote to oneinchrist quote:
Don't be one of the five foolish without oil in the lamp and of whom Christ says, "I know you not".
When Jesus first told that parable, He was addressing Israel-Judah, and He was saying that those who accept Him as Messiah are compared to five wise virgins, and those who do not accept Him as Messiah are compared to five foolish virgins.
I believe that everything that happened to Israel-Judah is an example of what will happen to the people of the world when the Lord comes the second time.
That is, in our time, the five wise virgins represent those people in the world who HAVE accepted Jesus as the Messiah and He KNOWS them, and the five foolish virgins are those people in the world who have NOT accepted Jesus as the Messiah and He DOES NOT know them.
To repeat what Caretaker said to oneinchrist quote:
Don't be one of the five foolish without oil in the lamp and of whom Christ says, "I know you not".
oneinchrist is already a Christian, so oneinchrist is a wise virgin and Jesus already knows oneinchrist.
Matthew 10
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I also confess before my Father who is in heaven.
Luke 12:8
Also I say to you, Whosoever shall confess Me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God.
oneinchrist has confessed Jesus MANY TIMES before men, so both God the Father and the angels of God KNOW oneinchrist already.
love, Eden
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oneinchrist
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Hi Caretaker,
You said:
Its not a salvation issue Daniel. The Word says in 2 Cor. 6:2 that today is the day of salvation. The Word also declares that those who do not follow Christ face being deceived by the AC.
I do not think that you quite understood my point. I am not saying that a Christian's end-time view has a bearing on whether or not they will be saved. What I am saying is that by Christians who are willing to preach the certainty of a "Great tribulation" that will follow after the rapture, the unbeleiving could be mislead to think that they will be given another chance to repent if they miss the first train out. We could be misleading many people into procrastination(complacency) and thus doing the work of the devil, even contributing unintentionally to the destruction of their souls.
I believe that many are already being deceived by the anti-Christ. I do not believe in the anti-christ as some mysterious guy who just suddenly appears out of nowhere. The anti-christ is openly given his power to rule and nations adore him.
He rules and he continues to rule with hardly anyone questioning his authority to add or subtract from the scriptures. He allows himself to be exalted above all measure without any shame. The antichrist may have been here a long time already..........deceiving people all over the world who are in awe of his presence.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Caretaker
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Caretaker,
Welcome back. Havent seen you in a while.
In reference to these two statements of yours:
1. I always prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
2.No matter how the post-tribbers show their intrinsic animosity towards the pre-trib viewpoint, or narrow scripture to make their case, it in no way negates the validity of the pre-trib position and/or the pre-wrath position as substantiated in His Word.
What about helping others prepare for the worst? If there is not a Great Tribulation(a time where men can still choose to repent and turn to God) that follows after the rapture, but instead the wrath of God being poured out..........Are you willing to take the accountability risk of preaching words that could lead men(indirectly) to believe that they can procrastinate until they "see" the Christ, and change their minds about God and salvation afterwards.
Do you get my point?
I am neither camp. I just read the bible and compare scripture with scripture. I see potentially dangerous implications with some assumptions.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Its not a salvation issue Daniel. The Word says in 2 Cor. 6:2 that today is the day of salvation. The Word also declares that those who do not follow Christ face being deceived by the AC.
It is imperative for each person to receive Christ and to be ready for His Coming for the Bride.
Don't be one of the five foolish without oil in the lamp and of whom Christ says, "I know you not".
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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oneinchrist
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Hi Caretaker,
Welcome back. Havent seen you in a while.
In reference to these two statements of yours:
1. I always prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
2.No matter how the post-tribbers show their intrinsic animosity towards the pre-trib viewpoint, or narrow scripture to make their case, it in no way negates the validity of the pre-trib position and/or the pre-wrath position as substantiated in His Word.
What about helping others prepare for the worst? If there is not a Great Tribulation(a time where men can still choose to repent and turn to God) that follows after the rapture, but instead the wrath of God being poured out..........Are you willing to take the accountability risk of preaching words that could lead men(indirectly) to believe that they can procrastinate until they "see" the Christ, and change their minds about God and salvation afterwards.
Do you get my point?
I am neither camp. I just read the bible and compare scripture with scripture. I see potentially dangerous implications with some assumptions.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Caretaker
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I always prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
It does not matter one iota to me if our Lord takes us out prior to the Trib, in the middle of the Trib, or at the end of the Trib. It is His perfect will and eternal love for His precious children which matters to me. Whatever comes and if I die, praise God I get to go Home and be with Him.
One thing to keep in mind, is that there is scriptural validity for the Pre-Trib position, for the pre-wrath position, and far more validity to the Church exiting out to meet the Lord in the air, and being with Him in GLORY PRIOR to His triumphant return to begin His Righteous Reign, then there is for the Church to be gathered after the tares and upon His return as the post-tribbers teach.
Remember that the early Church writers were strongly influenced by replacement theology, and believed that the Church had replaced Israel in the prophetic.
No matter how the post-tribbers show their intrinsic animosity towards the pre-trib viewpoint, or narrow scripture to make their case, it in no way negates the validity of the pre-trib position and/or the pre-wrath position as substantiated in His Word.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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Caretaker
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12 Contradictions in Post Trib Rapture
quote:
The post-tribulation Rapture position, while well-meaning, contradicts Scripture in a number of ways and must be laid aside by born-again Christians who desire to interpret Bible prophecy accurately. The post-tribulation Rapture position (1) contradicts Christ’s revelation to John that the 144,000 Jewish “first fruits” of God’s Tribulation harvest will be called to salvation before the earth is harmed; (2) fails to provide for persons to be left on earth in a flesh and blood bodies to repopulate Christ’s Millennial Kingdom; (3) rejects Christ’s unequivocal promise to keep born-again believers from “the hour of testing, which is to come upon the whole earth” (the Tribulation period); (4) fails to harmonize with Paul’s teaching that born-again Christians are not destined for wrath (the Tribulation period); (5) rejects Christ’s straightforward teaching on the unannounced, unexpected, any-moment nature of the Rapture; (6) fails to harmonize with Daniel’s Seventy Weeks prophecy; and (7) fails to harmonize with the Parable of the Ten Virgins.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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Caretaker
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quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
Drew,
Welcome back to the crazy farm. Great to see you again.
betty
Good to see you again Sis. God bless you.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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Betty Louise
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Drew,
Welcome back to the crazy farm. Great to see you again.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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WildB
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Welcome back. poop head.
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That is all.....
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Caretaker
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I also am pre-trib in my eschatology for I see from the Word that Christ returns for His Bride and those without the Holy Spirit are left behind as the Bride is taken.
I see from the Word a multitude in Glory, a glorious wedding prior to the Return of Christ.
It is Nation Israel who is the focus of the Tribulation, as judgment is poured-out.
The eschatology of the old church fathers is flawed in their replacement of Israel by the Church in their prophetic understanding.
John Wesley's Commentary on Rev. 12:
12:1 And a great sign was seen in heaven - Not only by St. John, but many heavenly spectators represented in the vision. A sign means something that has an uncommon appearance, and from which we infer that some unusual thing will follow. A woman - The emblem of the church of Christ, as she is originally of Israel, though built and enlarged on all sides by the addition of heathen converts; and as she will hereafter appear, when all her "natural branches are again "grafted in." She is at present on earth; and yet, with regard to her union with Christ, may be said to be in heaven, Ephesians 2:6. Accordingly, she is described as both assaulted and defended in heaven, verses 4, 7. Revelation 12:4,7 Clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars - These figurative expressions must he so interpreted as to preserve a due proportion between them. So, in Joseph's dream, the sun betokened his father; the moon, his mother; the stars, their children. There may be some such resemblance here; and as the prophecy points out the "power over all nations," perhaps the sun may betoken the Christian world; the moon, the Mahometans, who also carry the moon in their ensigns; and the crown of twelve stars, the twelve tribes of Israel; which are smaller than the sun and moon. The whole of this chapter answers the state of the church from the ninth century to this time.
Rev. 12:
1: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3: And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4: And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5: And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
It was NOT from the Church that the man-child was born. However in Wesley's day Nation Israel did not exist and he in his eschatology replaces Israel with the Church, as did the majority of the early theologians.
There are 77 references to Israel in the NT and none of them refer to the Church. Try replacing the words, "the Church," where Israel is mentioned and the passage is rendered unreadable and silly, e.g., Rom. 10:1, "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." If you put "the Church" where Israel is mentioned, then it is redundant. The Church is the body of saved believers, so how could Paul's prayer be for the Church to be saved?
Is it going to get rough in the last days for Believers?
YES!!!!!
Is the Lord going to catch-up His Bride prior to His return?
YES!!!!!!
Matt. 25:
5: While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6: And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7: Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8: And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9: But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10: And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11: Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12: But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13: Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
John 14:
1: Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3: And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
1 Thess. 14:
14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Place your faith and trust in Christ alone for your salvation.
Place your faith and trust in His Word for your understanding.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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WildB
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Amen
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That is all.....
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Caretaker
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Based on the Rock of the Word of God, in essentials, unity; in non-essentials, charity.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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oneinchrist
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So Carol ,I take it, you also believe that we must be raptured BEFORE the man of sin, son of perdition is revealed?
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Carol Swenson
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No, oneinchrist.
What I believe is that "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him" is the Rapture, and "the Day of the Lord" refers to the Tribulation.
Take a closer look at this verse:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (NASB)
1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
The New Testament calls the Day of the Lord a day of “wrath,” a day of “visitation,” and the “great day of God Almighty” (Revelation 16:14) and refers to a still future fulfillment when God’s wrath is poured out on unbelieving Israel (Isaiah 22; Jeremiah 30:1-17; Joel 1-2; Amos 5; Zephaniah 1) and on the unbelieving world (Ezekiel 38–39; Zechariah 14).
Paul appealed to the Thessalonians to "calm down" on the basis of the truth he had taught them in his first letter: the Lord would return and catch up His own to meet Him in the air (1 Thes. 4:13-18). This is "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and ... our gathering together unto Him" (2 Thes. 2:1).
Once the church is out of the world, Satan and his forces will unfold their program. The Day of the Lord is the period that follows the Rapture of the church. It will be a time of Tribulation for the people on earth: Satan and his hosts will be working on earth, and God will send righteous judgments from heaven. Revelation 6-19 describes this period for us.
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oneinchrist
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Hi Carol,
Would you please answer these questions? Yes or no
Do you(personally) believe that the KJV's use of the words "falling away" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 are erroneous?
and
Do you(personally) believe that the word "departure" (being understood as the "rapture") should be the correct biblical wording instead of "falling away?"
I have a Vines Concise dictionary of the Bible. It includes a translation of the original Greek and Hebrew words of the bible. This is what it states for the word "apostasia"
Apostacia (646) "a defection, revolt, apostacy," is used in the NT of religious apostacy; In Acts 21:21, it is translated "to forsake," lit., "thou teachest apostacy from Moses." IN 2 THESS. 2:3 "THE FALLING AWAY" SIGNIFIES APOSTACY FROM THE FAITH. In papyri documents it is used politically of rebels.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Carol Swenson
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No one has ever said that "falling away" means "rapture".
We said that "apostasia" may not mean "falling away".
![[type]](graemlins/type.gif) The second epistle of Paul to the Thessalonians was written to correct the erroneous notion among the Christians at Thessalonica that the persecutions from which they were suffering were those of “the great and awesome day of the Lord” (Joel 2:31) from which they had been taught to expect deliverance by “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him” (2 Thessalonians 2:1). The theme of this epistle, obscured by the mistranslation of the KJV in 2:2, “the day of Christ is at hand,” is correctly rendered in NASB “The day of the Lord has come.”
Purpose
Second Thessalonians was written to instruct the Thessalonians concerning the day of Christ “and our gathering together to Him” (2 Thessalonians 2:1) and to settle them in their conviction that in the day of Christ the Lord would appear to translate the living saints and to raise the deceased ones, so that actually the apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 is arguing for a pretribulation out-taking of the church as the Body of Christ. In 2:1-12 he outlines the events of the Day of the Lord that will occur after the out-taking of the church [Rapture].
(The New Unger's Bible Dictionary)
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oneinchrist
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The claim that "falling away" could mean "departure" or "rapture" in 2Thessalonians 2:3's...........
3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
.......does not make sense.......
Please bear with me as I show you why it does not make sense. Take a look at at verse 1 (just two verses previous to the above verse). This is what it states........
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering unto Him,
.....now look at vs. 2
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
....now vs. 3 once again
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for THAT DAY shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
Do you see how we are shown (by Paul) that "that day"(in the above verse) is a direct reference to vs. 1's "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gatherering together unto Him?
The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto Him IS the "rapture".
Now, since we are shown this truth by surrounding text........it would not make sense to say that "falling away" could also mean "rapture"............
The argument that "falling away" could mean "rapture" would mean that vs. 3 would read like the following.............
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day(the rapture) shall not come, except there come a rapture first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
To sum up my point:
"Falling away" cannot mean "rapture" because the words "that day" in "that day shall not come" already mean rapture.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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becauseHElives
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Eden as you should know I do not change my mind easily ...
quote:
Is Apostasy—A Clear, Discernable Event? The New Testament teaches that apostasy had already arrived in the first century (cf. Acts 20:27-32; 1 Tim. 4:1-5; 2 Tim. 3:1-9; 2 Pet. 2:1-3; Jude 3-4, 17-21). Departure from the faith does not happen over night. It takes time. Such a process as departure from the faith would not denote a clear event as demanded by the language of this passage. E. Schuyler English: How would the Thessalonians, or Christians in any century since, be qualified to recognize “the apostasy” when it should come? There has been apostasy from God, rebellion against Him, since time began. Paul's reference to “the departure,” was obviously something that both he and the Thessalonian believers had discussed in-depth previously. When we examine Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians, he never mentions the doctrine of apostasy. However, virtually every chapter in that epistle speaks of the rapture (cf. 1:9-10; 2:19 ; probably 3:13 ; 4:13 -17; 5:1-11). It seems very likely that “the departure” is a reference to the rapture.
Dr. H. Wayne House: The departure of Christians to be with Christ, and the subsequent revelation of the lawless one, Paul argues, is proof that the Day of the Lord had not begun as they had thought. This understanding of apostasia makes much more sense than the view that they are to be comforted (v. 2) because a defection from the faith must precede the Day of the Lord.
Kenneth Wuest: I am driven to the inescapable conclusion that the apostasia (vs. 3) refers to the Rapture of the Church which precedes the Day of the Lord, and holds back the revelation of the Man of Sin.
There will be an apostasy or departure from the faith in the latter days. Paul wrote in:
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.
But how much apostasy will be sufficient to say without a doubt this is clearly the “ apostasia ” that Paul referred to in 2 Thessalonians? Remember that the Thessalonians did not have radio, TV or the internet by which they could get their news. They didn't have “The Barna Group” or “The Gallup Organization” taking polls about the doctrinal integrity of local churches. Local churches across the country could have abandoned sound doctrine and they would nev er have known it. A general departure from the faith would not have been a recognizable event in that day and age.
Opponents of the pretrib rapture often present an argument like this: If Paul had really taught the Thessalonians about a pretrib rapture then he could have easily cleared up this confusion they had. All he needed to do was to tell the Thessalonians that there was one sure fire way that they could tell this rumor about the Day of the Lord was false. They could know without a doubt that they were not in the tribulation because the Rapture had not taken place! Since Paul did not present this line of reasoning then we know that he never taught them a pretrib rapture!
I have to admit, that argument makes sense. But if apostasia does mean the departure of the church in rapture then that would settle the argument once and for all!
I find Kenneth Wuest to be very accurate and very honest in his translation of scripture.
for this reason I have to take a deeper look....
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Carol Swenson
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Well obviously if you look up the KJV of "falling away" then you're going to get their definition. ![[updown]](graemlins/updown.gif)
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).
This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of A.D. 400 renders apostasia with the word "discessio", meaning "departure."
Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure"? Why does the King James say "falling away"?
Literally translated the word means the "departure" which of course could mean a departure from the faith, and thus, a rebellion (falling away, apostasy). But I think it means the departure Paul just talked about (2 Thessalonians 2:1)--the departure of the Church to be with the Lord.
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Eden
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Strong's Concordance
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let 1818 0 no 3361 man 5100 deceive 1818 you 5209 by 2596 any 3367 means 5158: for 3754 [that day shall not come], except 3362 there come 2064 a falling away 646 first 4412, and 2532 that man 444 of sin 266 be revealed 601 , the son 5207 of perdition 684;
646. apostasia, feminine of the same as 647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):--falling away, forsake.
So "apostasia" meant "defecting from something", like "defecting from the faith of Jesus and Yahweh".
And, when I think about it, such a "defecting from the faith of Jesus" has been occurring especially since the 1800s when the hypothesis of darwinism/evolution gained ground agains the "faith in Jesus", and even today, this "defection from the faith of Jesus" is accelerating, as most students graduating from college now ASSUME that darwinism/evolution is what "really happened" and "not that Jesus stuff".
In an earlier post, Carol Swenson wrote the following quote:
I think it means the departure Paul just talked about (2 Thessalonians 2:1) --the departure of the Church to be with the Lord.
So was Paul talking in 2 Thessalonians 2, or even in 2 Thessalonians 1 about a possible "defection FROM THE EARTH" instead of a "defectioin FROM THE FAITH OF JESUS"?
Let's see what 2 Thessalonians 2 actually says:
2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together to him,
2 That you be not soon shaken in mind or be troubled, neither by spirit nor by word nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away {Greek, apostasia first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
That "day of Christ that shall not come" refers to the "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together to him[/b]".
But then Paul says that that "day of Jesus's coming" and that "day of our gathering to Him" WILL NOT COME until FIRST there happens an "apostasia" or "defection from something".
And here we may well ask, "defection from what?" because it does not really say. But since Paul is talking to the Thessalonian Christian BELIEVERS in Jesus, it is reasonable to assume that Paul is saying that "a defection from the faith of Jesus must occur" BEFORE the "coming of the Lord Jesus" and BEFORE "our gathering together to Him".
So Carol Swenson wrote in the earlier post quote:
I think it means the departure Paul just talked about (2 Thessalonians 2:1) --the departure of the Church to be with the Lord.
This "defection" or "apostasia" happens BEFORE "our gathering together to Him" and thus the "apostasia" or "defection" CANNOT ALSO BE "our gathering together unto Him" because the "apostasia" or "defection" PRECEDES or HAPPENS BEFORE "our gathering together unto Him".
This "apostasia" or "defection from" must thus refer to "people defecting from the faith of Jesus and Yahweh", just as indeed has been happening IN DROVES since the 1800s and the advent of darwinism/evolution that now competes vigorously, and successfully, for the minds of our high school and college students who now pretty much "have accepted darwinism/evolution" as "what is really happening in the world", and "not that medieval Jesus stuff".
The "apostasia" or "defection from the faith of Jesus" has been in full swing since the 1800s, right up to today. But it PRECEDES our gathering together to Jesus", and thus CANNOT be the "gathering itself".
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
I have to revisit this topic....please read
Apostasy or Departure?
http://www.4himnet.com/fbc/issue006.html
becauseHElives
I read your article. It supports the definition of "departure" and a pre-trib Rapture. Thank you for posting it.
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Eden
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posted
becauseHElives, can you possibly copy and paste the most important parts of the link here? If you can, that would be great.
love, Eden
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
I have to revisit this topic....please read
Apostasy or Departure?
http://www.4himnet.com/fbc/issue006.html
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Carol Swenson
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Member # 6929
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posted
quote:
I do not know how to copy and paste. I wish I did. I am sure it would prevent some confusion.
It's very easy. I hope you learn soon.
quote:
Carol, Do you believe that the words "falling away" mean "rapture?"
No, of course not. What I believe is that the first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).
This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of A.D. 400 renders apostasia with the word "discessio", meaning "departure."
Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure"? Why does the King James say "falling away"?
Literally translated the word means the "departure" which of course could mean a departure from the faith, and thus, a rebellion (falling away, apostasy). But it could mean the departure Paul just talked about (2 Thessalonians 2:1) --the departure of the Church to be with the Lord.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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oneinchrist
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Member # 6532
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posted
Hi Carol,
I do not know how to copy and paste. I wish I did. I am sure it would prevent some confusion.
The two points that I said that I disagreed with:
1. The redefining of the word apostacy to mean "departure" as in "rapture" (which was not done by you, but by the author that you posted), so I hope that you do not take it personal.
2. Rev 4's "Come up here......" interpreted as "the rapture of the church" which was not an interpretation of yours, but an interpretation that I heard was part of the Pre-trib belief.
You are asking me how I can believe that Revelation is a compilation of past, present, and future events........and at the same time believe in a rapture in the future.
Revelation chpt. 12 vs. 7-9 (a past event)
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,
8 by they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.
9 So the great dragon WAS CAST OUT, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
And the rapture.............
Revelation chpt 14:14-16 ("a reaping of the earths harvest", which seems to me to describe a rapture event; also take notice that this event does follow after the revealing of the beast in Chpt. 13(which Thessalonians teaches) and precedes the pouring out of the the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth.
Carol, Do you believe that the words "falling away" mean "rapture?"
So in other words....that the verse should read......Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day shall not come unless the "rapture" comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition????
I do not think that would make any sense because "that Day" = "the coming of the Lord" = "the rapture".............
so then it would be like the verse saying......."Let no one deceive you by any means; for the rapture shall not come unless the rapture comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Brother Paul
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posted
The "hour" we are saved from is the time of God's wrath (so yes BettyLouise in this sense you are correct), in fact that is what we are saved from...
Anti-Christ, and his poured out hatred for the chidren of God and His word, is not the Lord's wrath but indeed is the 1st part of the tribulation period.
All the nations and tongues of Revelation are not the Jewish people during the tribulation (that is eisegesis) they are the "goyim" (nations) who have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb (saved Christians born from above of the Holy Spirit) which could not occur if the Spirit (which is eisegetically interpreted as that which is holding evil back) had been withdrawn from the world. Eisegesis is a "reading into" something that is in no wise clearly stated, Scripture is not a matter of private interpretation. Eisegesis is bad hermuneutics unless the imposed meaning is clearly supported elsewhere.
The proponderance of clear plenary Scriptural statements declare their is one coming (not a halfway secret one then a final one) and it is at that time the rapture occurs and Christ destroys the enemies of God. Read my previous post slowly and prayerfully and the Lord will make it plain.
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
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