|
Author
|
Topic: Why God’s Purpose For The Tribulation Excludes The Church
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
I do not agree that Pre-trib is a clear teaching of the bible. I am willing to hear out the Pre-trib position, but so far I have only seen things like........re-defining words(like "apostacy") and far-stretched interpretations of scripture(like saying that Rev. chpt 4's "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this" translates to "the rapture of the church"
Not apostasy… apostasia
It is with full assurance of proper exegetical study and with complete confidence in the original languages that the word meaning of apostasia is defined as "departure".
http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=53;t=000497;p=1
quote:
"Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this" translates to "the rapture of the church"
Nope. What was said is this:
quote:
Ezekiel: Are the first few verses of Revelation ch.4 speaking of the Church being "raptured"?
Carol: There is no mention of the Church in Revelation 4 - 19. This is because the Church has already been Raptured.
http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=53;t=000497#000033
So much good information has been posted on this topic, I hope you will study carefully and prayerfully. I find it very sad that the only two things you mention having seen, ("but so far I have only seen things like..."), in all this information were both misunderstood and misquoted. It would be MUCH better if you would use copy and paste when you quote others.
Maybe it would help if you post more information on why you believe what you believe. You believe Revelation is past, present, and future, yet you also believe there will be a Rapture at some point. Could you explain?
quote:
I wonder why so many people so often assume that Revelation is almost wholly compromised of events that are yet to pass. Revelation is a compilation of past, present, and future events.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged | 
|
|
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
|
posted
7) The Bible Teaches About a Rapture
1 Thessalonians 4:17 speaks of an event called "the Rapture", Latin "rapio," Greek "harpazo," which means "to catch up, to snatch away, or to take out." "After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Paul states that the concept of the Rapture is meant to encourage believers during this Age (1 Thes. 4:18). Other references on the Rapture are Jn. 14:1-14; I Cor. 15:51-58; and 1 Thes. 4:13-18.
http://www.lamblion.us/2008/10/why-i-believe-in-pre-tribulation.html
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Hi again Wild B,
The passages that you provided in support of the Pre-trib view do not offer any evidence of a PRE-TRIBULATION rapture. They only provide evidence that there will be a rapture(catching away)event........which I do not disagree with.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Hi Wild B,
Please give me time to look up those scriptures and get back to you........later.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
In Matthew 24 Jesus teaches that there will be a time of great tribulation(such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be) that precedes His coming and the gathering of the elect. This is a clear teaching of Jesus. Compare this clear teaching of Jesus with Revelation Chapter 7 vs. 13-14.
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"
14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the GREAT TRIBULATION, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
sidenote: The ones clothed in white robes are a great multitude which no one could number, OF ALL NATIONS, tribes, peoples, and tounges, standing before the throne of the lamb.
I do not agree that Pre-trib is a clear teaching of the bible. I am willing to hear out the Pre-trib position, but so far I have only seen things like........re-defining words(like "apostacy") and far-stretched interpretations of scripture(like saying that Rev. chpt 4's "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this translates to "the rapture of the church"
With love in Christ, Daniel
You just need to learn how to rightly divide.
ON THIS WE STAND,
The Pretribulation RAPTURE of the Church (1Thes.4:13-18; Titus 2:13,14; 1Cor 15:51-53; Phil. 3"20,21).
The personal, premillennial RETURN OF CHRIST to reigh on earth (Zech.14:4,9; Acts 1:10,11; Rev. 19:11-16;20:4-6)
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
In Matthew 24 Jesus teaches that there will be a time of great tribulation(such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be) that precedes His coming and the gathering of the elect. This is a clear teaching of Jesus. Compare this clear teaching of Jesus with Revelation Chapter 7 vs. 13-14.
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"
14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the GREAT TRIBULATION, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
sidenote: The ones clothed in white robes are a great multitude which no one could number, OF ALL NATIONS, tribes, peoples, and tounges, standing before the throne of the lamb.
I do not agree that Pre-trib is a clear teaching of the bible. I am willing to hear out the Pre-trib position, but so far I have only seen things like........re-defining words(like "apostacy") and far-stretched interpretations of scripture(like saying that Rev. chpt 4's "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this" translates to "the rapture of the church"
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
|
posted
the groom does not beat up the Bride before the Wedding. God is not going to pour on the bowls of wrath on His Bride the Church. The only thing holding back the anti-Christ is the Holy Spirit indwelled in the Body of Believers. When the Church has been raptured out of this world, the anti-Christ will come on the scene and He will do as much evil as God will allow Him to do. But the hardest thing the world will go through will be the bowls of wrath that God will pour on the earth.
Hbr 10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
You would think the desire to go through the tribulation would be as popular as the desire to jump into a pit filled with vipers and broken glass. As illogical as it may seem, there appears to be a large number of Christians that fully expect to get roughed up before Christ returns.
Many Christians argue strongly for the right to suffer persecution at the hands of the Antichrist and the one world government. These tribulation saint wannabees constantly harp, "Because Jesus and His disciples suffered persecution, we should expect no better." It's been my experience that people with the weakest faith are generally the ones that talk the boldest. When the slightest difficulty comes their way, they cry to high heaven.
I hate to be the bearer of good news [no I don't really], but the word of God clearly states that believers will escape the tribulation bloodbath. "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thes 5:9). "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev 3:10).
So I have to ask, what if the Tribulation does not happen during our lifetime? What if we continue to live in the comfort of modern America, being filled with the Spirit and led by the Spirit to do good works? Will these wannabe martyrs feel cheated out of their rightful suffering?
If they really want to have their heads chopped off, they can always go visit the Middle East.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
Another crucial passage on the timing of the rapture is Revelation 3:10, in which Christ promises to deliver believers from the “hour of trial” that is going to come upon the earth. This could mean two things. Either Christ will protect believers in the midst of the trials, or He will deliver believers out of the trials. Both are valid meanings of the Greek word translated “from.”
However, it is important to recognize what believers are promised to be kept from. It is not just the trial, but the “hour” of trial. Christ is promising to keep believers from the very time period that contains the trials, namely the tribulation. The purpose of the tribulation, the purpose of the rapture, the meaning of 1 Thessalonians 5:9, and the interpretation of Revelation 3:10 all give clear support to the pre-tribulational position.
If the Bible is interpreted literally and consistently, the pre-tribulational position is the most biblically-based interpretation.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Ezekiel 13:20
unregistered
|
posted
I didn't think God was a respecter of persons.
What about the Church of Smyrna? Revelation ch.2?
What about the Apostles and Prophets?
The True Church will go through the tribulation period. They know it.
The sad thing is so many have been deceived by the modern day "bail out",troop withdrawlal,shed the Gospel Armour and fly away, money making,ear tickling,false doctrine of Pre-trib rapture.
It's the easy out doctrine that keeps meat in the seat and money in the plate!
Sells books and movies,while misleading Christians.
Christ only returns once,Read God's Word not FICTIONAL money making fairy tales of men.
--------------------------------------------------
I will venture to assert that,there is not a Bible teacher nor anyone else living in the world today who has found a pre-trib rapture in the Bible itself. These teachers all come to the Bible with cut-and-dried theories which they have learnt elsewhere,and twist and torture texts to fit theory. If the spiritual pedigree of the Futurist Bible teachers could be traced back,they would all be found to spring from one source,Lacunza,the Jesuit.
Duncan MaDougall
"The Rapture of the Saints"
McDougall was one of Scotland's well know Gaelic scholars holding linguistic degrees in Latin,Greek,Hebrew and Gaelic.
--------------------------------------------------
John Nelson Darby came up with his "new doctrine" of pre-trib rapture from the dreams of Margaret MacDonald and the writings of Lacunza,not from studying God's Holy Word!
IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
I am convinced that Christ followers in America will see a much greater increase in persecution from the adversary. As devoted followers gather and pray to God.....God listens.....and God answers according to His will. It is then only a matter of time before the Holy Spirit is unleashed to do an unquestionable Christ honoring "work of God" ............ the body of believers then raise their voices giving praise and honor to the Name of Jesus............ then adversity comes roaring in from all around us. This is when our faith in America is really put to the test. The time is coming. Are we ready to stand for what we say we believe in?
You gotta wonder.........if there is no rise in adversity.......then is there also no rise in our prayers to God to intercede for lost souls?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Brother Paul
Advanced Member
Member # 7959
|
posted
So though as you know from my former posts I know we will not suffer the Lord's wrath (in fact we will be with Him when it is outpoured) I felt it okay to put in my meager two cents so I am re-posting an entry I believe shows we (the Church) do however go through the Anti-Christs reign and suffer persecution under His awful hand. PLease read it slowly and thoughtfully...
1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:4 - "According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming (the parousia) of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of god, and the dead in Christ will rise first (the first resurrection). After that (after the parousia at the first resurrection), we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (when He comes in the clouds). And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Therefore encourage each other with these words. Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should suprise you like a thief."
Mark 13:26-27 - At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
This passage Peter recalled to Mark speaks of the Rapture (the gathering of His elect to Himself), but note that it is at the time of the Parousia (the coming) and that it is written that "men will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds...". That is, the people of the world.
Matthew 24:27 - For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Matthew 24:30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear (epiphany) in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. they will see the Son of Man coming (parousia) on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
So again we see here that Matthew understood that the Son of Man's coming (Parousia) would be visible to all men, and when they see the pierced one, the nations will mourn because of Him. This is revealed in Mark to be when He comes to gather His elect unto Himself (the rapture).
John tells us the exact same thing in Revelation 1:7. Herein he says, "Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen. I am the Alpha and the Omega, " says the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."1
He also tells us in 1 John 2:28 "And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears (the Epiphany) we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming (parousia)."
So here we have the witness of three Apostles (Peter, Matthew, and John) that the parousia (coming in the clouds) is visible to the whole world (the epiphany) and it is a time of mourning. Paul revealed it is the time when the RAPTURE occurs. It is then (at the time of thje Rapture/Parousia) that the Anti-Christ and God's adversaries are consumed. Which means that according to the clear word of scripture, the Church (which is raptured then) is PRESENT during the reign of the Anti-Christ.
The Prophet Zechariah also spoke of this in chapter 12:9-11 when under the unction of the Holy Spirit he declared the event as directly following the battle of Armageddon (which comes after Anti-Christ's 3 1/2 years of false peace and persecution of the saints). YHVH is speaking and He says: "It shall be in that day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo."
This also refers to the armies who came against Jerusalem, who according to the scriptures (although after the rise of the Anti-Christ) will be destroyed by the word of His mouth at His coming (parousia).
It seems St. Paul agrees. In II Thess 2:8 he teaches - "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him (the rapture), That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come
a) a falling away first, and
b) that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
He then goes on to sat, "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (parousia): Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,"
So according to Paul as well, AFTER the AntiChrist is revealed as the abomination which makes desolate, when he has assumed the position of god on earth in the Temple of God, THEN the Lord comes and gathers us to Him, and this is the same time that people (all over the world) shall see Him and He destroys the enemies of God (we will be with Him). It is at the Rapture/Parousia that the Anti-Christ is consumed by Christ.
So when is the Parousia? 1 Corinthians 15:23 tells us it happens at the same time as the resurrection of the saints, which Paul tells us about in 1 Thess 4:15-17 when it speaks of the Rapture. This means that at the Rapture the alive are caught up and the dead in Christ rise. In other words, this is speaking of the Parousia when the Anti-Christ (who will already have been revealed and will have set himself up in the TEMPLE) will be consumed. Thus the rapture occurs at the parousia which is post trib, but before the outpouring of God's wrath!
One of the passages I like regarding the Parousia is 1 Thesselonians 3:12 and 13 which we have Paul instructing that "the Church" increase and abound in love toward all men, so that their hearts may be established unblamable in holiness before the Father at the Parousia of the Lord Jesus with all His saints...this means Paul is teaching that the Church will exist on earth at the Parousia (when according to him elsewhere, the Anti-Christ is consumed....and elsewhere describes this as the time of Rapture)
Finally, the Parousia will be no secret...the world will not be left trying to figure out where we all went because we are told in Matthew 24:27 that the whole world will see the Parousia (thus be rationally present at the Rapture), not just the few watchers in the Churches. However the non-saved will be caught off guard as like by a thief in the night because they did not believe their really was a Christ to ever come back. This Scripture in Matthew ties this event to the "epiphanea" (His visible appearing, coming to judge - 2 Thess. 2:8; 1 Tim 6:14; 2 tim. 4:1,8; Titus 2:13). Beloved, this is he blessed hope (the time of our glorification) that we are to be waiting for, not a half-way invisible coming seven or three and half years earlier than the Parousia! So keep your lamps full and your wicks trimmed so He finds you ready when He comes.
Now finally think on this, could Matthew, Peter, John, Paul (who recieved their understanding from Jesus), plus all those they and the other Apostles taught and appointed to oversee the first Church, and then their immediate students (who all are in agreement with this perspective) all have been wrong and the modern dispensationalists be right? Sorry, in my humble opinion that can not be the case....
My dear brothers and sisters, please meditate on these scriptures prayerfully...
Brother Paul
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
|
|
byfaith
Advanced Member
Member # 8061
|
posted
Ever notice that it seems to be mostly Americans who believe in pre-trib?
I think America is SO comfortable and has been in this freedom of religion that they cannot comprehend tribulation.
There are countless martyrs and missionaries, etc that endure trials and tribulations that most of us would cave under.
SO, what about them? why have they not been spared? SO, I think that the thinking that God won't allow our suffering is a bit silly.
Posts: 160 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged |
|
|
|
|
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
|
posted
quote:
Hi Eden, It appears that you thought that I was in disagreement with your post. Au contraire. I do agree with your subject matter on this topic.
Hi Betty, I agree with you that we are not appointed to wrath........but I believe that scripture shows us to be appointed to tribulation.
Hi John Hale, I believe that you have provided scripture that shows that we (saints) are involved in the time of great tribulation(after Rev. chpt. 4).
Hi Carol, The word "saints" , I think, would assumably be making reference to "all the church of Jesus present on earth".......so I do not agree with the authors claim that an absence of the word "church" (after Rev. chpt 4) automatically equates to an absence of the church from the time of great tribulation. Carol, I believe that there is a distinction between the time of tribulation and the time of Gods wrath poured out. The time of tribulation(in Revelation) appears to be a time where the trumpet(call to repentance) is being sounded and there is great distress in nations (spiritually, economically, morally, etc.).......but in the time of Gods wrath being poured out (Rev. 16) men do not repent and are given over to the devil for his purpose. One more interesting thing that I would like to make mention of is.......take a look at how Revelation chpt. 14 describes a "reaping of the earths harvest" by the Son of Man just prior to the pouring out of the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth(Chpt. 16)
with love in Christ, Daniel
![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
The coming great tribulation: Is the world on the road to financial disaster?
From the Internet:
"Greece is buckling under a debt burden of $388 billion, which is bigger than its $356 billion economy. Greece was facing a May 19 due date on debt it said it couldn't repay without a bailout. So Greek lawmakers voted Thursday 172-121 to approve austerity measures insisted upon by the EU and IMF worth about $38 billion through 2012 – that will slash pensions and civil servants' pay and further hike consumer taxes.
In the United States, the federal government is in debt about $12.3 trillion, which is roughly 80 percent of the nation's $13.3 trillion economy.
But some economists aren't worried that America will suffer the same fate as Greece.
"The United States government is a currency-issuing nation, our debts are denominated in dollars, we control the dollars," said economist Mike Norman who noted that Greece's debt is denominated in euros without the ability to create euros. "So it's functionally like a state in the United States or me or you or anybody else who's strapped for cash. If it doesn't have it, it doesn't have it."
"So the question of solvency or going broke or not having the money, as the congresswoman said, is totally inapplicable," he said.
But J.D. Foster, a senior fellow in economics at the Heritage Foundation and a former economist in the Bush administration, told FoxNews.com that America is headed toward its own Greek tragedy if it doesn't tackle its fiscal problems.
Foster said it's unlikely that the U.S. would try to inflate its way out of its debt. "Frankly it doesn't work and it's a self defeating approach," he said. It helps that the world's reserve currency is the dollar, he said. But he added that if bond investors lost trust in the U.S. like they did with Greece, the dollar will not save the country.
"I think what is more likely to happen is we are headed toward a crisis and we'll deal with it, either be enacting a large VAT (value added tax, or national sales tax) or not enacting a VAT and slash spending back. But one way or another, we'll address the situation. The problem with Greece, it's doubtful they will do what is necessary."
love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
The question has often been asked, Will anyone be saved after the rapture? The Scriptures clearly indicate that a great multitude of both Jews and Gentiles will trust in the Lord after the church is caught up to glory. Though the children of God living on earth at the time will be translated when Christ comes for His church, immediately a testimony will be raised up to the name of Christ through new converts among Jews and Gentiles. Though these are never described by the term “church,” they are constantly called saints, that is, those set apart as holy to God and saved through the sacrifice of Christ.
The presence of saved people in the world after the rapture has puzzled some because according to 2 Thessalonians 2:7 the one who now restrains sin, often identified as the Holy Spirit, is pictured as being removed from the world. The question then is how can people be saved in the tribulation if the Holy Spirit is taken out of the world?
The answer, of course, is that the Holy Spirit is removed from the world in the same sense in which He came on the day of Pentecost. People were saved before the day of Pentecost when the Spirit of God came to indwell the church, and it should be clear from other Scriptures that the Holy Spirit is always omnipresent.
He has always been in the world and always will be, in keeping with the divine attribute of omnipresence. Though the special ministries which are characteristic of the present dispensation may cease, there will be the continued ministry of the Spirit in a similar way to that which existed before Pentecost.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
You are all my friends in the Lord Jesus. I feel I have grown closer to you all, despite the occasional differences in some of our beliefs. Our differences are only in eschatology, but I am confident that we both are serving the same all-loving God and Lord.....and are anxious for the sight of His glorious coming.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
|
posted
I love you Daniel, but I believe the Scriptures point to a pre-trib rapture. God bless and keep you.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Hi Eden,
It appears that you thought that I was in disagreement with your post. Au contraire. I do agree with your subject matter on this topic.
Hi Betty,
I agree with you that we are not appointed to wrath........but I believe that scripture shows us to be appointed to tribulation.
Hi John Hale,
I believe that you have provided scripture that shows that we (saints) are involved in the time of great tribulation(after Rev. chpt. 4).
Hi Carol,
The word "saints" , I think, would assumably be making reference to "all the church of Jesus present on earth".......so I do not agree with the authors claim that an absence of the word "church" (after Rev. chpt 4) automatically equates to an absence of the church from the time of great tribulation.
Carol, I believe that there is a distinction between the time of tribulation and the time of Gods wrath poured out. The time of tribulation(in Revelation) appears to be a time where the trumpet(call to repentance) is being sounded and there is great distress in nations (spiritually, economically, morally, etc.).......but in the time of Gods wrath being poured out (Rev. 16) men do not repent and are given over to the devil for his purpose.
One more interesting thing that I would like to make mention of is.......take a look at how Revelation chpt. 14 describes a "reaping of the earths harvest" by the Son of Man just prior to the pouring out of the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth(Chpt. 16)
with love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
God’s purpose for the tribulation (i.e., the seven-year, 70th week of Daniel) revolves around His plan for Israel and does not include a earthly presence for the church . Why? Because God’s plan for Israel is unfinished at this point in history. When the role of the church is completed she will be taken as a completed body to heaven in an instant - at the rapture. This will clear the way for a restoration and resumption of progress toward the completion of our Sovereign Lord’s plans for His elect nation Israel.
Another purpose for the tribulation is that it is a time of God’s wrath upon a Christ-rejecting world and a time of revenge for Gentile treatment of Israel.
Never are tribulation saints given the special and peculiar promises given to the church in the present age.
The Church is judged at the Bema and is invited, as the Bride, to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Tribulation Saints are judged at the Sheep and Goat judgment of Matthew 25:31-46 and are invited to live in the Millennium Kingdom. Tribulation Saints are not the Church.
Only the Church is given the status of royalty (1 Peter 2:9) and granted a seat at the Lord’s side on His Throne. (Ephes 2:6) The Church is called kings and priests. (Rev. 5:10)
The multitudes of Rev. 7:9-17 are from the Tribulation and serve the Lord in His Temple but are not called priests.
The beheaded martyrs of Rev. 20:4 are from the Tribulation and reign with the Lord but are not called kings.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
John Hale wrote quote:
I have heard all the hopeful monster theories about why the tribulation will not happen to believers. And most sound poly anna-ish (begging your pardon).
Chuck Missler once said it is unrealistic for Christians to believe the Church will be spared in the last days the persecution it has known through most of Church history.
It is true that Israel in the land of Goshen was first in bondage before they were delivered by Moses from Egypt.
And I do think that whatever happened to Israel will be duplicated on a larger (macro) scale by the world.
So you bring up a good point, John Hale, that it would probably be pollyannaish to think that Christians would NOT also have to "first be in bondage in the world as Israel was in Egypt, and then the Christians are taken out by a mighty hand of Jesus at the Second coming.
But like Israel in the land of Goshen, the Christians are NOT first taken out of the land of Goshen, but they will remain in the world when the Lord Jesus comes to take us out of the world at His Second Coming, when Jesus comes to rule the nations from Jerusalem.
So yes, John Hale, I think the Christians would also go through persecution ("bondage in the land of Goshen") and then they are delivered by the mighty hand of Jesus:
Deuteronomy 18:15
The LORD Your God will raise up unto you a Prophet from the midst of you, of your brethren, like me; to him shall you listen.
But like Israel, we will remain in the world until the Prophet like Moses comes to deliver us with a mighty hand, at His Second Coming:
Exodus 11:7
But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that you may know how that the LORD does put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.
Matthew 13
47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net, that was cast into the sea and gathered of every kind;
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world; the angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just.
The wicked are severed from among the just, not the just are severed from among the wicked.
Malachi 4
1 For, behold, the day comes that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all who do wickedly shall be stubble; and the day that comes shall burn them up, says the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But to you that fear My name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and you shall go forth and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And you shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, says the LORD of hosts.
love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
|
posted
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
|
posted
The Church will not be here for the tribulation.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
John Hale
unregistered
|
posted
And btw... the word "saint" means believer / one who is abiding by the will of God. The use of it in the OT does not restrict its meaning / definition to NT Jews as some try to explain away verses like Revelation 13:10.
It simply means those who are in and going along with God's plan (which the Jews managed from time to time).
IP: Logged |
|
|
John Hale
unregistered
|
posted
So, the persecution and martyrdom that God allowed even to his own Son (which was the catalyst for the salvation of man)... what? doesn't count?
I have heard all the hopeful monster theories about why the tribulation will not happen to believers. And most sound poly anna-ish (begging your pardon).
Chuck Missler once said it is unrealistic for Christians to believe the Church will be spared in the last days the persecution it has known through most of Church history.
Revelation 12 (NIV)
1 A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.
3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads.
4 His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born.
5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
6 The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.
8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.
9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.
11 They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.
12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.”
13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.
14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.
15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent.
16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Revelation 13 (NIV)
1 And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea.
2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.
3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.
4 Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?”
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months.
6 He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven.
7 He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
9 He who has an ear, let him hear.
10 If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.
11 Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon.
12 He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.
13 And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.
14 Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.
15 He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
16 He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead,
17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
18 This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man’s number. His number is 666.
The number 666 itself is a tracking system to hunt down those who do not accept it (Christians).
What Christians have a pass on is the judgment of God. The persecution of the devil and the world is another matter entirely.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (NIV)
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
Too many believers are lulled to sleep about the false messiah who will come and be revealed before the gathering together to Jesus comes.
Essentially all the warnings Jesus gave us ahead of time are spiritualized away... by traditional pre-trib interpolations.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
hello, oneinchrist, I'm not disputing that the time of the end will be a time fo sorrows and tribulation, earthquakes, famines, pestilences, a time when rich men will howl for their riches, as even now Greece is just about bankrupt (owes as much in debt as it has coming in in gross national product) and that may also spread to Spain, Portugal, and Ireland.
Indeed, that's why Jesus has to come, isn't it?
Revelation 11:18
And the nations were angry and your wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that you should give reward to your servants the prophets and to the saints, and them that fear your name, small and great; and should destroy them who destroy the earth.
So tribulation and hard times and sorrow, yes, even great tribulation, but it will not touch the saints, just as it did not touch Israel in the land of Goshen.
Psalm 91:7
A thousand shall fall at your side and ten thousand at your right hand; but it shall not come near you.
Isaiah 43:2
When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow you: when you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon you.
Remember Shadrach, Mishach, and Abednego.
love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
The Coming of the Son of Man
29 "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all of the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they WILL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
It is clear from the above passages in Matthew that Jesus speaks of tribulation that precedes His Coming. In fact, in verse 21 Jesus even refers to it as a time of "great" tribulation".
Matthew 24:21 "For then there will be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as not has been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
I do not understand how anyone can hold to any interpretation of end-times that contradicts the plain and simple end-times teachings of Jesus.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
The church will be here until the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus, but the church will be divinely protected just like Israel was protected in the land of Goshen in Egypt:
Exodus 9:26
Only in the land of Goshen, where the children of Israel were, was there no hail.
Then, all of a sudden, probably just before or coincidental with the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus, the house of Israel and the house of Judah who are currently mixed in among the Gentile nations will miraculously "come up out of their graves" and the Gentiles will "carry them on their shoulders to the land of Israel":
Ezekiel 37
11 Then he said to me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12 Therefore prophesy and say to them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves and bring you into the land of Israel.
14 And I shall put my spirit in you and you shall live and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, says the LORD.
At that time, the house of Israel and the house of Judah will together be merged into the church to become the final "Israel of God":
Galatians 6:16
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
But just as the LORD "did not" remove Israel from the land of Goshen in Egypt when the plagues upon Egypt occurred, evenso the LORD will "leave the church in the world", to show that the LORD "does put a difference between the holy and profane":
Exodus 11:7
But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that you may know how that the LORD does put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.
And the New Testament also bears out what I said above.
At the time of the end, the "bad fish" and the "good fish" are "still together in the net":
Matthew 13
47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind.
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just.
It is clear from the above that at the time of the end, the wicked and the just are still together.
love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
Why God’s Purpose For The Tribulation Excludes The Church
“And the LORD your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. And you shall again obey the Lord, and observe all His commandments which I command you today.” Deuteronomy 30:7-8
God’s purpose for the tribulation (i.e., the seven-year, 70th week of Daniel) revolves around His plan for Israel and does not include a earthly presence for the church. Why? Because God’s plan for Israel is unfinished at this point in history. When the role of the church is completed she will be taken as a completed body to heaven in an instant-at the rapture. This will clear the way for a restoration and resumption of progress toward the completion of our Sovereign Lord’s plans for His elect nation Israel.
The Tribulation Focuses on Israel
The Bible teaches that the tribulation is a time of preparation for Israel’s restoration and conversion (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:3-11; Zech. 12:10).1 While the church will experience tribulation in general during this present age(John 15:18-25; 16:33; 2 Tim. 3:10-13), she is never mentioned as participating in Israel’s time of trouble, which includes the Great Tribulation, the Day of the Lord, and the Wrath of God. Gerald Stanton explains:
The Tribulation does not deal with the Church at all, but with the purification of Israel. It is not the “time of the Church’s trouble,” but the “time of Jacob’s trouble.” The emphasis of the Tribulation is primarily Jewish. This fact is borne out by Old Testament Scriptures (Deut. 4: 30; Jer. 30: 7; Ezek. 20: 37; Dan. 12:1; Zech. 13:8-9), by the Olivet Discourse of Christ (Matt. 24:9-26), and by the book of Revelation itself (Rev. 7:4-8; 12:1-2; 17, etc.). It concerns “Daniel’s people,” the coming of “false Messiah,” the preaching of the “gospel of the kingdom,” flight on the “sabbath,” the temple and the “holy place,” the land of Judea, the city of Jerusalem, the twelve “tribes of the children of Israel,” the “son of Moses,” “signs” in the heavens, the “covenant” with the Beast, the “sanctuary,” the “sacrifice and the oblation” of the temple ritual. These all speak of Israel and clearly demonstrate that the Tribulation is largely a time when God deals with His ancient people prior to their entrance into the promised kingdom. The many Old Testament prophecies yet to be fulfilled for Israel further indicate a future time when God will deal with this nation (Deut. 30:1-6; Jer. 30:8-10, etc.).2
The Church is Absent from the Tribulation
Not one Old Testament passage on the tribulation refers to the church (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4 11; Dan. 8:24-27; 12:1-2), nor does the New Testament ever speak of the church in relation to the tribulation (Matt. 13:30, 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10, 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1 11; Rev. 4-18), except as present in heaven. Such silence speaks loudly and supports the pre-trib position, especially when combined with clear, explicit statements that promise her exemption from that time (Rom. 5:9; 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9; Rev. 3:10). Note the clear promise to the church of Revelation 3:10:
Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth.
If pretribulationism is indeed the teaching of Scripture, then we would expect that passages dealing with the tribulation would consistently make no mention of the church. This is exactly what we find. However, Israel is mentioned often throughout these texts. Dr. Robert Gromacki has studied the New Testament book of Revelation, chapters 4-19, which gives the most detailed overview of the seven-year tribulation in all the Bible. He has shown the following:
However, there is a strange silence of the term in chapters 4-19. That fact is especially noteworthy when you contrast that absence with its frequent presence in the first three chapters. One good reason for this phenomenon is the absence of the true church and true evangelical churches in the seven years preceding the Second Coming. The true believers of the church have gone into the presence of Christ in heaven before the onset of the events of the seven year period. The church is not mentioned during the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments because the church is not here during the outpouring of these judgments.3
Tribulation on a Christ-Rejecting World
Another purpose for the tribulation is that it is a time of God’s wrath upon a Christ-rejecting world and a time of revenge for Gentile treatment of Israel.
Moreover, it is evident that the Tribulation also concerns God’s judgment upon Christ rejecting Gentile nations. Babylon, which “made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication” (Rev. 14:8), shall herself “be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her” (Rev. 18:8). The “cities of the nations” shall fall, after which Satan shall be bound “that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled” (Rev.20:3). God’s judgment falls likewise upon the individual wicked, the kings of the earth, the great, the rich, and the mighty, every bond man and every free man (Rev. 6:15-17). It falls upon all who blaspheme the name of God and repent not to give Him glory (Rev. 16:9). Wicked men, godless nations, suffering Israel–these may all be found in Revelation 6-18; but one looks in vain for the Church of Christ, which is His body, until he reaches the nineteenth chapter. There she is seen as the heavenly bride of Christ, and when He returns to earth to make His enemies His footstool, she is seen returning with Him (I Thess. 3: 13).4
Such a time of judgment does not require the church, who has not rejected Christ, to be present. With the church in heaven during the tribulation, it enables God’s focus to be on Israel as His Divine instrument through which He acts. This program was predicted by the Lord before Joshua and Israel ever entered the Promised Land. Notice the predicted pattern:
1) then the LORD your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you. (Deut. 30:3)
2) And the LORD your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it . . . (Deut. 30:5a)
3) And the LORD your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. And you shall again obey the LORD, and observe all His commandments which I command you today. (Deut. 30:7-8)
Zechariah speaks of the Lord’s retribution upon the nations as a time when “the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem . . . in that day that I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.” (Zech. 12:8-9) Once again the focus is upon Israel, in this case Jerusalem, not the church.
The book of Revelation provides a graphic depiction of God’s judgment upon an unbelieving world, often called “earth dwellers.” As God prosecutes His judgment upon the “earth dwellers,”
John records periodic pauses by our Lord as He evaluates the response of mankind to His judgment before going onto the next phase. It is as if the Lord inflicts a series of judgments and then surveys the landscape to see if, like Ninevah in the days of Jonah, there is repentance so that He can suspend prosecution of the war. Un like Ninevah in the days of Jonah, the “earth dwellers” do not relent in the wake of “the wrath of the Lamb” (Rev. 6:16), so our Lord proceeds to the next phase of His battle. Every step of the way, the “earth dwellers” would “not repent of the works of their hands” (Rev. 9:20) Instead of worshipping Christ, “the earth and those who dwell in it . . . worship the first beast” (Rev. 13:12). Instead of repentance they “blasphemed God” (Rev. 16:21). Finally, “all the nations were deceived” (Rev. 18:23) resulting in the satanic notion that the armies of the world must march against Jerusalem-God’s city-and Israel-His people. This results in the basis for the second coming of Christ, which is to rescue Israel from the world’s armies who are striking out at God by invading His people. Such a scenario does not demand or require the church and so she will not be there. We can see that the purpose of the tribulation revolves around God’s plan for Israel, not the church.
Conclusion
Only pretribulationism is able to give full import to tribulation terms like “the time of Jacob’s trouble” (Jer. 30:7), as a passage specifically stating that the tribulation is for Jacob (i.e., Israel). John Walvoord concludes,
Never are tribulation saints given the special and peculiar promises given to the church in the present age. The nature of the church in contrast to Israel therefore becomes an argument supporting the pretribulation viewpoint.5
Since God’s purpose for the tribulation is to restore Israel (Jer. 30:3, 10) and judge the Gentiles (Jer. 30:11), it is clear that this purpose does not include the church. This is one of the reasons why she will be taken to heaven before this time. The church’s hope is a heavenly one, not participation in the culmination and restoration of God’s plan for His earthly people-Israel. Maranatha!
Thomas Ice
http://bibleprophecyfortoday.wordpress.com/2009/04/03/why-gods-purpose-for-the-tribulation-excludes-the-church-by-thomas-ice/
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
