This is topic Why God’s Purpose For The Tribulation Excludes The Church in forum Bible Topics & Study at Christian Message Boards.
To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007148
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on
:
Why God’s Purpose For The Tribulation Excludes The Church
“And the LORD your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. And you shall again obey the Lord, and observe all His commandments which I command you today.” Deuteronomy 30:7-8
God’s purpose for the tribulation (i.e., the seven-year, 70th week of Daniel) revolves around His plan for Israel and does not include a earthly presence for the church. Why? Because God’s plan for Israel is unfinished at this point in history. When the role of the church is completed she will be taken as a completed body to heaven in an instant-at the rapture. This will clear the way for a restoration and resumption of progress toward the completion of our Sovereign Lord’s plans for His elect nation Israel.
The Tribulation Focuses on Israel
The Bible teaches that the tribulation is a time of preparation for Israel’s restoration and conversion (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:3-11; Zech. 12:10).1 While the church will experience tribulation in general during this present age(John 15:18-25; 16:33; 2 Tim. 3:10-13), she is never mentioned as participating in Israel’s time of trouble, which includes the Great Tribulation, the Day of the Lord, and the Wrath of God. Gerald Stanton explains:
The Tribulation does not deal with the Church at all, but with the purification of Israel. It is not the “time of the Church’s trouble,” but the “time of Jacob’s trouble.” The emphasis of the Tribulation is primarily Jewish. This fact is borne out by Old Testament Scriptures (Deut. 4: 30; Jer. 30: 7; Ezek. 20: 37; Dan. 12:1; Zech. 13:8-9), by the Olivet Discourse of Christ (Matt. 24:9-26), and by the book of Revelation itself (Rev. 7:4-8; 12:1-2; 17, etc.). It concerns “Daniel’s people,” the coming of “false Messiah,” the preaching of the “gospel of the kingdom,” flight on the “sabbath,” the temple and the “holy place,” the land of Judea, the city of Jerusalem, the twelve “tribes of the children of Israel,” the “son of Moses,” “signs” in the heavens, the “covenant” with the Beast, the “sanctuary,” the “sacrifice and the oblation” of the temple ritual. These all speak of Israel and clearly demonstrate that the Tribulation is largely a time when God deals with His ancient people prior to their entrance into the promised kingdom. The many Old Testament prophecies yet to be fulfilled for Israel further indicate a future time when God will deal with this nation (Deut. 30:1-6; Jer. 30:8-10, etc.).2
The Church is Absent from the Tribulation
Not one Old Testament passage on the tribulation refers to the church (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4 11; Dan. 8:24-27; 12:1-2), nor does the New Testament ever speak of the church in relation to the tribulation (Matt. 13:30, 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10, 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1 11; Rev. 4-18), except as present in heaven. Such silence speaks loudly and supports the pre-trib position, especially when combined with clear, explicit statements that promise her exemption from that time (Rom. 5:9; 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9; Rev. 3:10). Note the clear promise to the church of Revelation 3:10:
Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth.
If pretribulationism is indeed the teaching of Scripture, then we would expect that passages dealing with the tribulation would consistently make no mention of the church. This is exactly what we find. However, Israel is mentioned often throughout these texts. Dr. Robert Gromacki has studied the New Testament book of Revelation, chapters 4-19, which gives the most detailed overview of the seven-year tribulation in all the Bible. He has shown the following:
However, there is a strange silence of the term in chapters 4-19. That fact is especially noteworthy when you contrast that absence with its frequent presence in the first three chapters. One good reason for this phenomenon is the absence of the true church and true evangelical churches in the seven years preceding the Second Coming. The true believers of the church have gone into the presence of Christ in heaven before the onset of the events of the seven year period. The church is not mentioned during the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments because the church is not here during the outpouring of these judgments.3
Tribulation on a Christ-Rejecting World
Another purpose for the tribulation is that it is a time of God’s wrath upon a Christ-rejecting world and a time of revenge for Gentile treatment of Israel.
Moreover, it is evident that the Tribulation also concerns God’s judgment upon Christ rejecting Gentile nations. Babylon, which “made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication” (Rev. 14:8), shall herself “be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her” (Rev. 18:8). The “cities of the nations” shall fall, after which Satan shall be bound “that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled” (Rev.20:3). God’s judgment falls likewise upon the individual wicked, the kings of the earth, the great, the rich, and the mighty, every bond man and every free man (Rev. 6:15-17). It falls upon all who blaspheme the name of God and repent not to give Him glory (Rev. 16:9). Wicked men, godless nations, suffering Israel–these may all be found in Revelation 6-18; but one looks in vain for the Church of Christ, which is His body, until he reaches the nineteenth chapter. There she is seen as the heavenly bride of Christ, and when He returns to earth to make His enemies His footstool, she is seen returning with Him (I Thess. 3: 13).4
Such a time of judgment does not require the church, who has not rejected Christ, to be present. With the church in heaven during the tribulation, it enables God’s focus to be on Israel as His Divine instrument through which He acts. This program was predicted by the Lord before Joshua and Israel ever entered the Promised Land. Notice the predicted pattern:
1) then the LORD your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you. (Deut. 30:3)
2) And the LORD your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it . . . (Deut. 30:5a)
3) And the LORD your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. And you shall again obey the LORD, and observe all His commandments which I command you today. (Deut. 30:7-8)
Zechariah speaks of the Lord’s retribution upon the nations as a time when “the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem . . . in that day that I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.” (Zech. 12:8-9) Once again the focus is upon Israel, in this case Jerusalem, not the church.
The book of Revelation provides a graphic depiction of God’s judgment upon an unbelieving world, often called “earth dwellers.” As God prosecutes His judgment upon the “earth dwellers,”
John records periodic pauses by our Lord as He evaluates the response of mankind to His judgment before going onto the next phase. It is as if the Lord inflicts a series of judgments and then surveys the landscape to see if, like Ninevah in the days of Jonah, there is repentance so that He can suspend prosecution of the war. Un like Ninevah in the days of Jonah, the “earth dwellers” do not relent in the wake of “the wrath of the Lamb” (Rev. 6:16), so our Lord proceeds to the next phase of His battle. Every step of the way, the “earth dwellers” would “not repent of the works of their hands” (Rev. 9:20) Instead of worshipping Christ, “the earth and those who dwell in it . . . worship the first beast” (Rev. 13:12). Instead of repentance they “blasphemed God” (Rev. 16:21). Finally, “all the nations were deceived” (Rev. 18:23) resulting in the satanic notion that the armies of the world must march against Jerusalem-God’s city-and Israel-His people. This results in the basis for the second coming of Christ, which is to rescue Israel from the world’s armies who are striking out at God by invading His people. Such a scenario does not demand or require the church and so she will not be there. We can see that the purpose of the tribulation revolves around God’s plan for Israel, not the church.
Conclusion
Only pretribulationism is able to give full import to tribulation terms like “the time of Jacob’s trouble” (Jer. 30:7), as a passage specifically stating that the tribulation is for Jacob (i.e., Israel). John Walvoord concludes,
Never are tribulation saints given the special and peculiar promises given to the church in the present age. The nature of the church in contrast to Israel therefore becomes an argument supporting the pretribulation viewpoint.5
Since God’s purpose for the tribulation is to restore Israel (Jer. 30:3, 10) and judge the Gentiles (Jer. 30:11), it is clear that this purpose does not include the church. This is one of the reasons why she will be taken to heaven before this time. The church’s hope is a heavenly one, not participation in the culmination and restoration of God’s plan for His earthly people-Israel. Maranatha!
Thomas Ice
http://bibleprophecyfortoday.wordpress.com/2009/04/03/why-gods-purpose-for-the-tribulation-excludes-the-church-by-thomas-ice/
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
:
The church will be here until the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus, but the church will be divinely protected just like Israel was protected in the land of Goshen in Egypt:
Exodus 9:26
Only in the land of Goshen, where the children of Israel were, was there no hail.
Then, all of a sudden, probably just before or coincidental with the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus, the house of Israel and the house of Judah who are currently mixed in among the Gentile nations will miraculously "come up out of their graves" and the Gentiles will "carry them on their shoulders to the land of Israel":
Ezekiel 37
11 Then he said to me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12 Therefore prophesy and say to them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves and bring you into the land of Israel.
14 And I shall put my spirit in you and you shall live and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, says the LORD.
At that time, the house of Israel and the house of Judah will together be merged into the church to become the final "Israel of God":
Galatians 6:16
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
But just as the LORD "did not" remove Israel from the land of Goshen in Egypt when the plagues upon Egypt occurred, evenso the LORD will "leave the church in the world", to show that the LORD "does put a difference between the holy and profane":
Exodus 11:7
But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that you may know how that the LORD does put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.
And the New Testament also bears out what I said above.
At the time of the end, the "bad fish" and the "good fish" are "still together in the net":
Matthew 13
47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind.
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just.
It is clear from the above that at the time of the end, the wicked and the just are still together.
love, Eden
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
:
The Coming of the Son of Man
29 "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all of the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they WILL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
It is clear from the above passages in Matthew that Jesus speaks of tribulation that precedes His Coming. In fact, in verse 21 Jesus even refers to it as a time of "great" tribulation".
Matthew 24:21 "For then there will be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as not has been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
I do not understand how anyone can hold to any interpretation of end-times that contradicts the plain and simple end-times teachings of Jesus.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
:
hello, oneinchrist, I'm not disputing that the time of the end will be a time fo sorrows and tribulation, earthquakes, famines, pestilences, a time when rich men will howl for their riches, as even now Greece is just about bankrupt (owes as much in debt as it has coming in in gross national product) and that may also spread to Spain, Portugal, and Ireland.
Indeed, that's why Jesus has to come, isn't it?
Revelation 11:18
And the nations were angry and your wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that you should give reward to your servants the prophets and to the saints, and them that fear your name, small and great; and should destroy them who destroy the earth.
So tribulation and hard times and sorrow, yes, even great tribulation, but it will not touch the saints, just as it did not touch Israel in the land of Goshen.
Psalm 91:7
A thousand shall fall at your side and ten thousand at your right hand; but it shall not come near you.
Isaiah 43:2
When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow you: when you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon you.
Remember Shadrach, Mishach, and Abednego.
love, Eden
Posted by John Hale (Member # 8034) on
:
So, the persecution and martyrdom that God allowed even to his own Son (which was the catalyst for the salvation of man)... what? doesn't count?
I have heard all the hopeful monster theories about why the tribulation will not happen to believers. And most sound poly anna-ish (begging your pardon).
Chuck Missler once said it is unrealistic for Christians to believe the Church will be spared in the last days the persecution it has known through most of Church history.
Revelation 12 (NIV)
1 A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.
3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads.
4 His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born.
5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
6 The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.
8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.
9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.
11 They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.
12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.”
13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.
14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.
15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent.
16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Revelation 13 (NIV)
1 And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea.
2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.
3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.
4 Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?”
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months.
6 He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven.
7 He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
9 He who has an ear, let him hear.
10 If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.
11 Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon.
12 He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.
13 And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.
14 Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.
15 He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
16 He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead,
17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
18 This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man’s number. His number is 666.
The number 666 itself is a tracking system to hunt down those who do not accept it (Christians).
What Christians have a pass on is the judgment of God. The persecution of the devil and the world is another matter entirely.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (NIV)
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
Too many believers are lulled to sleep about the false messiah who will come and be revealed before the gathering together to Jesus comes.
Essentially all the warnings Jesus gave us ahead of time are spiritualized away... by traditional pre-trib interpolations.
Posted by John Hale (Member # 8034) on
:
And btw... the word "saint" means believer / one who is abiding by the will of God. The use of it in the OT does not restrict its meaning / definition to NT Jews as some try to explain away verses like Revelation 13:10.
It simply means those who are in and going along with God's plan (which the Jews managed from time to time).
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on
:
The Church will not be here for the tribulation.
betty
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on
:
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
:
John Hale wrote quote:
I have heard all the hopeful monster theories about why the tribulation will not happen to believers. And most sound poly anna-ish (begging your pardon).
Chuck Missler once said it is unrealistic for Christians to believe the Church will be spared in the last days the persecution it has known through most of Church history.
It is true that Israel in the land of Goshen was first in bondage before they were delivered by Moses from Egypt.
And I do think that whatever happened to Israel will be duplicated on a larger (macro) scale by the world.
So you bring up a good point, John Hale, that it would probably be pollyannaish to think that Christians would NOT also have to "first be in bondage in the world as Israel was in Egypt, and then the Christians are taken out by a mighty hand of Jesus at the Second coming.
But like Israel in the land of Goshen, the Christians are NOT first taken out of the land of Goshen, but they will remain in the world when the Lord Jesus comes to take us out of the world at His Second Coming, when Jesus comes to rule the nations from Jerusalem.
So yes, John Hale, I think the Christians would also go through persecution ("bondage in the land of Goshen") and then they are delivered by the mighty hand of Jesus:
Deuteronomy 18:15
The LORD Your God will raise up unto you a Prophet from the midst of you, of your brethren, like me; to him shall you listen.
But like Israel, we will remain in the world until the Prophet like Moses comes to deliver us with a mighty hand, at His Second Coming:
Exodus 11:7
But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that you may know how that the LORD does put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.
Matthew 13
47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net, that was cast into the sea and gathered of every kind;
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world; the angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just.
The wicked are severed from among the just, not the just are severed from among the wicked.
Malachi 4
1 For, behold, the day comes that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all who do wickedly shall be stubble; and the day that comes shall burn them up, says the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But to you that fear My name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and you shall go forth and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And you shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, says the LORD of hosts.
love, Eden
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on
:
God’s purpose for the tribulation (i.e., the seven-year, 70th week of Daniel) revolves around His plan for Israel and does not include a earthly presence for the church . Why? Because God’s plan for Israel is unfinished at this point in history. When the role of the church is completed she will be taken as a completed body to heaven in an instant - at the rapture. This will clear the way for a restoration and resumption of progress toward the completion of our Sovereign Lord’s plans for His elect nation Israel.
Another purpose for the tribulation is that it is a time of God’s wrath upon a Christ-rejecting world and a time of revenge for Gentile treatment of Israel.
Never are tribulation saints given the special and peculiar promises given to the church in the present age.
The Church is judged at the Bema and is invited, as the Bride, to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Tribulation Saints are judged at the Sheep and Goat judgment of Matthew 25:31-46 and are invited to live in the Millennium Kingdom. Tribulation Saints are not the Church.
Only the Church is given the status of royalty (1 Peter 2:9) and granted a seat at the Lord’s side on His Throne. (Ephes 2:6) The Church is called kings and priests. (Rev. 5:10)
The multitudes of Rev. 7:9-17 are from the Tribulation and serve the Lord in His Temple but are not called priests.
The beheaded martyrs of Rev. 20:4 are from the Tribulation and reign with the Lord but are not called kings.
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
:
Hi Eden,
It appears that you thought that I was in disagreement with your post. Au contraire. I do agree with your subject matter on this topic.
Hi Betty,
I agree with you that we are not appointed to wrath........but I believe that scripture shows us to be appointed to tribulation.
Hi John Hale,
I believe that you have provided scripture that shows that we (saints) are involved in the time of great tribulation(after Rev. chpt. 4).
Hi Carol,
The word "saints" , I think, would assumably be making reference to "all the church of Jesus present on earth".......so I do not agree with the authors claim that an absence of the word "church" (after Rev. chpt 4) automatically equates to an absence of the church from the time of great tribulation.
Carol, I believe that there is a distinction between the time of tribulation and the time of Gods wrath poured out. The time of tribulation(in Revelation) appears to be a time where the trumpet(call to repentance) is being sounded and there is great distress in nations (spiritually, economically, morally, etc.).......but in the time of Gods wrath being poured out (Rev. 16) men do not repent and are given over to the devil for his purpose.
One more interesting thing that I would like to make mention of is.......take a look at how Revelation chpt. 14 describes a "reaping of the earths harvest" by the Son of Man just prior to the pouring out of the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth(Chpt. 16)
with love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on
:
I love you Daniel, but I believe the Scriptures point to a pre-trib rapture. God bless and keep you.
betty
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
:
You are all my friends in the Lord Jesus. I feel I have grown closer to you all, despite the occasional differences in some of our beliefs. Our differences are only in eschatology, but I am confident that we both are serving the same all-loving God and Lord.....and are anxious for the sight of His glorious coming.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on
:
The question has often been asked, Will anyone be saved after the rapture? The Scriptures clearly indicate that a great multitude of both Jews and Gentiles will trust in the Lord after the church is caught up to glory. Though the children of God living on earth at the time will be translated when Christ comes for His church, immediately a testimony will be raised up to the name of Christ through new converts among Jews and Gentiles. Though these are never described by the term “church,” they are constantly called saints, that is, those set apart as holy to God and saved through the sacrifice of Christ.
The presence of saved people in the world after the rapture has puzzled some because according to 2 Thessalonians 2:7 the one who now restrains sin, often identified as the Holy Spirit, is pictured as being removed from the world. The question then is how can people be saved in the tribulation if the Holy Spirit is taken out of the world?
The answer, of course, is that the Holy Spirit is removed from the world in the same sense in which He came on the day of Pentecost. People were saved before the day of Pentecost when the Spirit of God came to indwell the church, and it should be clear from other Scriptures that the Holy Spirit is always omnipresent.
He has always been in the world and always will be, in keeping with the divine attribute of omnipresence. Though the special ministries which are characteristic of the present dispensation may cease, there will be the continued ministry of the Spirit in a similar way to that which existed before Pentecost.
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
:
The coming great tribulation: Is the world on the road to financial disaster?
From the Internet:
"Greece is buckling under a debt burden of $388 billion, which is bigger than its $356 billion economy. Greece was facing a May 19 due date on debt it said it couldn't repay without a bailout. So Greek lawmakers voted Thursday 172-121 to approve austerity measures insisted upon by the EU and IMF worth about $38 billion through 2012 – that will slash pensions and civil servants' pay and further hike consumer taxes.
In the United States, the federal government is in debt about $12.3 trillion, which is roughly 80 percent of the nation's $13.3 trillion economy.
But some economists aren't worried that America will suffer the same fate as Greece.
"The United States government is a currency-issuing nation, our debts are denominated in dollars, we control the dollars," said economist Mike Norman who noted that Greece's debt is denominated in euros without the ability to create euros. "So it's functionally like a state in the United States or me or you or anybody else who's strapped for cash. If it doesn't have it, it doesn't have it."
"So the question of solvency or going broke or not having the money, as the congresswoman said, is totally inapplicable," he said.
But J.D. Foster, a senior fellow in economics at the Heritage Foundation and a former economist in the Bush administration, told FoxNews.com that America is headed toward its own Greek tragedy if it doesn't tackle its fiscal problems.
Foster said it's unlikely that the U.S. would try to inflate its way out of its debt. "Frankly it doesn't work and it's a self defeating approach," he said. It helps that the world's reserve currency is the dollar, he said. But he added that if bond investors lost trust in the U.S. like they did with Greece, the dollar will not save the country.
"I think what is more likely to happen is we are headed toward a crisis and we'll deal with it, either be enacting a large VAT (value added tax, or national sales tax) or not enacting a VAT and slash spending back. But one way or another, we'll address the situation. The problem with Greece, it's doubtful they will do what is necessary."
love, Eden
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
:
quote:
Hi Eden, It appears that you thought that I was in disagreement with your post. Au contraire. I do agree with your subject matter on this topic.
Hi Betty, I agree with you that we are not appointed to wrath........but I believe that scripture shows us to be appointed to tribulation.
Hi John Hale, I believe that you have provided scripture that shows that we (saints) are involved in the time of great tribulation(after Rev. chpt. 4).
Hi Carol, The word "saints" , I think, would assumably be making reference to "all the church of Jesus present on earth".......so I do not agree with the authors claim that an absence of the word "church" (after Rev. chpt 4) automatically equates to an absence of the church from the time of great tribulation. Carol, I believe that there is a distinction between the time of tribulation and the time of Gods wrath poured out. The time of tribulation(in Revelation) appears to be a time where the trumpet(call to repentance) is being sounded and there is great distress in nations (spiritually, economically, morally, etc.).......but in the time of Gods wrath being poured out (Rev. 16) men do not repent and are given over to the devil for his purpose. One more interesting thing that I would like to make mention of is.......take a look at how Revelation chpt. 14 describes a "reaping of the earths harvest" by the Son of Man just prior to the pouring out of the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth(Chpt. 16)
with love in Christ, Daniel
![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtVByFEjzT4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZc3nEYHPxk&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0bfnDXDV3k&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th7la0Vem1E&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsgPv-yLkXA&feature=related
Posted by byfaith (Member # 8061) on
:
Ever notice that it seems to be mostly Americans who believe in pre-trib?
I think America is SO comfortable and has been in this freedom of religion that they cannot comprehend tribulation.
There are countless martyrs and missionaries, etc that endure trials and tribulations that most of us would cave under.
SO, what about them? why have they not been spared? SO, I think that the thinking that God won't allow our suffering is a bit silly.
Posted by Brother Paul (Member # 7959) on
:
So though as you know from my former posts I know we will not suffer the Lord's wrath (in fact we will be with Him when it is outpoured) I felt it okay to put in my meager two cents so I am re-posting an entry I believe shows we (the Church) do however go through the Anti-Christs reign and suffer persecution under His awful hand. PLease read it slowly and thoughtfully...
1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:4 - "According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming (the parousia) of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of god, and the dead in Christ will rise first (the first resurrection). After that (after the parousia at the first resurrection), we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (when He comes in the clouds). And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Therefore encourage each other with these words. Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should suprise you like a thief."
Mark 13:26-27 - At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
This passage Peter recalled to Mark speaks of the Rapture (the gathering of His elect to Himself), but note that it is at the time of the Parousia (the coming) and that it is written that "men will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds...". That is, the people of the world.
Matthew 24:27 - For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Matthew 24:30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear (epiphany) in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. they will see the Son of Man coming (parousia) on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
So again we see here that Matthew understood that the Son of Man's coming (Parousia) would be visible to all men, and when they see the pierced one, the nations will mourn because of Him. This is revealed in Mark to be when He comes to gather His elect unto Himself (the rapture).
John tells us the exact same thing in Revelation 1:7. Herein he says, "Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen. I am the Alpha and the Omega, " says the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."1
He also tells us in 1 John 2:28 "And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears (the Epiphany) we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming (parousia)."
So here we have the witness of three Apostles (Peter, Matthew, and John) that the parousia (coming in the clouds) is visible to the whole world (the epiphany) and it is a time of mourning. Paul revealed it is the time when the RAPTURE occurs. It is then (at the time of thje Rapture/Parousia) that the Anti-Christ and God's adversaries are consumed. Which means that according to the clear word of scripture, the Church (which is raptured then) is PRESENT during the reign of the Anti-Christ.
The Prophet Zechariah also spoke of this in chapter 12:9-11 when under the unction of the Holy Spirit he declared the event as directly following the battle of Armageddon (which comes after Anti-Christ's 3 1/2 years of false peace and persecution of the saints). YHVH is speaking and He says: "It shall be in that day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo."
This also refers to the armies who came against Jerusalem, who according to the scriptures (although after the rise of the Anti-Christ) will be destroyed by the word of His mouth at His coming (parousia).
It seems St. Paul agrees. In II Thess 2:8 he teaches - "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him (the rapture), That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come
a) a falling away first, and
b) that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
He then goes on to sat, "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (parousia): Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,"
So according to Paul as well, AFTER the AntiChrist is revealed as the abomination which makes desolate, when he has assumed the position of god on earth in the Temple of God, THEN the Lord comes and gathers us to Him, and this is the same time that people (all over the world) shall see Him and He destroys the enemies of God (we will be with Him). It is at the Rapture/Parousia that the Anti-Christ is consumed by Christ.
So when is the Parousia? 1 Corinthians 15:23 tells us it happens at the same time as the resurrection of the saints, which Paul tells us about in 1 Thess 4:15-17 when it speaks of the Rapture. This means that at the Rapture the alive are caught up and the dead in Christ rise. In other words, this is speaking of the Parousia when the Anti-Christ (who will already have been revealed and will have set himself up in the TEMPLE) will be consumed. Thus the rapture occurs at the parousia which is post trib, but before the outpouring of God's wrath!
One of the passages I like regarding the Parousia is 1 Thesselonians 3:12 and 13 which we have Paul instructing that "the Church" increase and abound in love toward all men, so that their hearts may be established unblamable in holiness before the Father at the Parousia of the Lord Jesus with all His saints...this means Paul is teaching that the Church will exist on earth at the Parousia (when according to him elsewhere, the Anti-Christ is consumed....and elsewhere describes this as the time of Rapture)
Finally, the Parousia will be no secret...the world will not be left trying to figure out where we all went because we are told in Matthew 24:27 that the whole world will see the Parousia (thus be rationally present at the Rapture), not just the few watchers in the Churches. However the non-saved will be caught off guard as like by a thief in the night because they did not believe their really was a Christ to ever come back. This Scripture in Matthew ties this event to the "epiphanea" (His visible appearing, coming to judge - 2 Thess. 2:8; 1 Tim 6:14; 2 tim. 4:1,8; Titus 2:13). Beloved, this is he blessed hope (the time of our glorification) that we are to be waiting for, not a half-way invisible coming seven or three and half years earlier than the Parousia! So keep your lamps full and your wicks trimmed so He finds you ready when He comes.
Now finally think on this, could Matthew, Peter, John, Paul (who recieved their understanding from Jesus), plus all those they and the other Apostles taught and appointed to oversee the first Church, and then their immediate students (who all are in agreement with this perspective) all have been wrong and the modern dispensationalists be right? Sorry, in my humble opinion that can not be the case....
My dear brothers and sisters, please meditate on these scriptures prayerfully...
Brother Paul
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
:
I am convinced that Christ followers in America will see a much greater increase in persecution from the adversary. As devoted followers gather and pray to God.....God listens.....and God answers according to His will. It is then only a matter of time before the Holy Spirit is unleashed to do an unquestionable Christ honoring "work of God" ............ the body of believers then raise their voices giving praise and honor to the Name of Jesus............ then adversity comes roaring in from all around us. This is when our faith in America is really put to the test. The time is coming. Are we ready to stand for what we say we believe in?
You gotta wonder.........if there is no rise in adversity.......then is there also no rise in our prayers to God to intercede for lost souls?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Ezekiel 13:20 (Member # 8124) on
:
I didn't think God was a respecter of persons.
What about the Church of Smyrna? Revelation ch.2?
What about the Apostles and Prophets?
The True Church will go through the tribulation period. They know it.
The sad thing is so many have been deceived by the modern day "bail out",troop withdrawlal,shed the Gospel Armour and fly away, money making,ear tickling,false doctrine of Pre-trib rapture.
It's the easy out doctrine that keeps meat in the seat and money in the plate!
Sells books and movies,while misleading Christians.
Christ only returns once,Read God's Word not FICTIONAL money making fairy tales of men.
--------------------------------------------------
I will venture to assert that,there is not a Bible teacher nor anyone else living in the world today who has found a pre-trib rapture in the Bible itself. These teachers all come to the Bible with cut-and-dried theories which they have learnt elsewhere,and twist and torture texts to fit theory. If the spiritual pedigree of the Futurist Bible teachers could be traced back,they would all be found to spring from one source,Lacunza,the Jesuit.
Duncan MaDougall
"The Rapture of the Saints"
McDougall was one of Scotland's well know Gaelic scholars holding linguistic degrees in Latin,Greek,Hebrew and Gaelic.
--------------------------------------------------
John Nelson Darby came up with his "new doctrine" of pre-trib rapture from the dreams of Margaret MacDonald and the writings of Lacunza,not from studying God's Holy Word!
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on
:
Another crucial passage on the timing of the rapture is Revelation 3:10, in which Christ promises to deliver believers from the “hour of trial” that is going to come upon the earth. This could mean two things. Either Christ will protect believers in the midst of the trials, or He will deliver believers out of the trials. Both are valid meanings of the Greek word translated “from.”
However, it is important to recognize what believers are promised to be kept from. It is not just the trial, but the “hour” of trial. Christ is promising to keep believers from the very time period that contains the trials, namely the tribulation. The purpose of the tribulation, the purpose of the rapture, the meaning of 1 Thessalonians 5:9, and the interpretation of Revelation 3:10 all give clear support to the pre-tribulational position.
If the Bible is interpreted literally and consistently, the pre-tribulational position is the most biblically-based interpretation.
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on
:
You would think the desire to go through the tribulation would be as popular as the desire to jump into a pit filled with vipers and broken glass. As illogical as it may seem, there appears to be a large number of Christians that fully expect to get roughed up before Christ returns.
Many Christians argue strongly for the right to suffer persecution at the hands of the Antichrist and the one world government. These tribulation saint wannabees constantly harp, "Because Jesus and His disciples suffered persecution, we should expect no better." It's been my experience that people with the weakest faith are generally the ones that talk the boldest. When the slightest difficulty comes their way, they cry to high heaven.
I hate to be the bearer of good news [no I don't really], but the word of God clearly states that believers will escape the tribulation bloodbath. "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thes 5:9). "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev 3:10).
So I have to ask, what if the Tribulation does not happen during our lifetime? What if we continue to live in the comfort of modern America, being filled with the Spirit and led by the Spirit to do good works? Will these wannabe martyrs feel cheated out of their rightful suffering?
If they really want to have their heads chopped off, they can always go visit the Middle East.
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on
:
the groom does not beat up the Bride before the Wedding. God is not going to pour on the bowls of wrath on His Bride the Church. The only thing holding back the anti-Christ is the Holy Spirit indwelled in the Body of Believers. When the Church has been raptured out of this world, the anti-Christ will come on the scene and He will do as much evil as God will allow Him to do. But the hardest thing the world will go through will be the bowls of wrath that God will pour on the earth.
Hbr 10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
:
In Matthew 24 Jesus teaches that there will be a time of great tribulation(such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be) that precedes His coming and the gathering of the elect. This is a clear teaching of Jesus. Compare this clear teaching of Jesus with Revelation Chapter 7 vs. 13-14.
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"
14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the GREAT TRIBULATION, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
sidenote: The ones clothed in white robes are a great multitude which no one could number, OF ALL NATIONS, tribes, peoples, and tounges, standing before the throne of the lamb.
I do not agree that Pre-trib is a clear teaching of the bible. I am willing to hear out the Pre-trib position, but so far I have only seen things like........re-defining words(like "apostacy") and far-stretched interpretations of scripture(like saying that Rev. chpt 4's "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this" translates to "the rapture of the church"
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
In Matthew 24 Jesus teaches that there will be a time of great tribulation(such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be) that precedes His coming and the gathering of the elect. This is a clear teaching of Jesus. Compare this clear teaching of Jesus with Revelation Chapter 7 vs. 13-14.
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"
14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the GREAT TRIBULATION, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
sidenote: The ones clothed in white robes are a great multitude which no one could number, OF ALL NATIONS, tribes, peoples, and tounges, standing before the throne of the lamb.
I do not agree that Pre-trib is a clear teaching of the bible. I am willing to hear out the Pre-trib position, but so far I have only seen things like........re-defining words(like "apostacy") and far-stretched interpretations of scripture(like saying that Rev. chpt 4's "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this translates to "the rapture of the church"
With love in Christ, Daniel
You just need to learn how to rightly divide.
ON THIS WE STAND,
The Pretribulation RAPTURE of the Church (1Thes.4:13-18; Titus 2:13,14; 1Cor 15:51-53; Phil. 3"20,21).
The personal, premillennial RETURN OF CHRIST to reigh on earth (Zech.14:4,9; Acts 1:10,11; Rev. 19:11-16;20:4-6)
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
:
Hi Wild B,
Please give me time to look up those scriptures and get back to you........later.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
:
Hi again Wild B,
The passages that you provided in support of the Pre-trib view do not offer any evidence of a PRE-TRIBULATION rapture. They only provide evidence that there will be a rapture(catching away)event........which I do not disagree with.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on
:
7) The Bible Teaches About a Rapture
1 Thessalonians 4:17 speaks of an event called "the Rapture", Latin "rapio," Greek "harpazo," which means "to catch up, to snatch away, or to take out." "After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Paul states that the concept of the Rapture is meant to encourage believers during this Age (1 Thes. 4:18). Other references on the Rapture are Jn. 14:1-14; I Cor. 15:51-58; and 1 Thes. 4:13-18.
http://www.lamblion.us/2008/10/why-i-believe-in-pre-tribulation.html
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
I do not agree that Pre-trib is a clear teaching of the bible. I am willing to hear out the Pre-trib position, but so far I have only seen things like........re-defining words(like "apostacy") and far-stretched interpretations of scripture(like saying that Rev. chpt 4's "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this" translates to "the rapture of the church"
Not apostasy… apostasia
It is with full assurance of proper exegetical study and with complete confidence in the original languages that the word meaning of apostasia is defined as "departure".
http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=53;t=000497;p=1
quote:
"Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this" translates to "the rapture of the church"
Nope. What was said is this:
quote:
Ezekiel: Are the first few verses of Revelation ch.4 speaking of the Church being "raptured"?
Carol: There is no mention of the Church in Revelation 4 - 19. This is because the Church has already been Raptured.
http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=53;t=000497#000033
So much good information has been posted on this topic, I hope you will study carefully and prayerfully. I find it very sad that the only two things you mention having seen, ("but so far I have only seen things like..."), in all this information were both misunderstood and misquoted. It would be MUCH better if you would use copy and paste when you quote others.
Maybe it would help if you post more information on why you believe what you believe. You believe Revelation is past, present, and future, yet you also believe there will be a Rapture at some point. Could you explain?
quote:
I wonder why so many people so often assume that Revelation is almost wholly compromised of events that are yet to pass. Revelation is a compilation of past, present, and future events.
Posted by Brother Paul (Member # 7959) on
:
The "hour" we are saved from is the time of God's wrath (so yes BettyLouise in this sense you are correct), in fact that is what we are saved from...
Anti-Christ, and his poured out hatred for the chidren of God and His word, is not the Lord's wrath but indeed is the 1st part of the tribulation period.
All the nations and tongues of Revelation are not the Jewish people during the tribulation (that is eisegesis) they are the "goyim" (nations) who have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb (saved Christians born from above of the Holy Spirit) which could not occur if the Spirit (which is eisegetically interpreted as that which is holding evil back) had been withdrawn from the world. Eisegesis is a "reading into" something that is in no wise clearly stated, Scripture is not a matter of private interpretation. Eisegesis is bad hermuneutics unless the imposed meaning is clearly supported elsewhere.
The proponderance of clear plenary Scriptural statements declare their is one coming (not a halfway secret one then a final one) and it is at that time the rapture occurs and Christ destroys the enemies of God. Read my previous post slowly and prayerfully and the Lord will make it plain.
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
:
Hi Carol,
I do not know how to copy and paste. I wish I did. I am sure it would prevent some confusion.
The two points that I said that I disagreed with:
1. The redefining of the word apostacy to mean "departure" as in "rapture" (which was not done by you, but by the author that you posted), so I hope that you do not take it personal.
2. Rev 4's "Come up here......" interpreted as "the rapture of the church" which was not an interpretation of yours, but an interpretation that I heard was part of the Pre-trib belief.
You are asking me how I can believe that Revelation is a compilation of past, present, and future events........and at the same time believe in a rapture in the future.
Revelation chpt. 12 vs. 7-9 (a past event)
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,
8 by they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.
9 So the great dragon WAS CAST OUT, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
And the rapture.............
Revelation chpt 14:14-16 ("a reaping of the earths harvest", which seems to me to describe a rapture event; also take notice that this event does follow after the revealing of the beast in Chpt. 13(which Thessalonians teaches) and precedes the pouring out of the the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth.
Carol, Do you believe that the words "falling away" mean "rapture?"
So in other words....that the verse should read......Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day shall not come unless the "rapture" comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition????
I do not think that would make any sense because "that Day" = "the coming of the Lord" = "the rapture".............
so then it would be like the verse saying......."Let no one deceive you by any means; for the rapture shall not come unless the rapture comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on
:
quote:
I do not know how to copy and paste. I wish I did. I am sure it would prevent some confusion.
It's very easy. I hope you learn soon.
quote:
Carol, Do you believe that the words "falling away" mean "rapture?"
No, of course not. What I believe is that the first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).
This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of A.D. 400 renders apostasia with the word "discessio", meaning "departure."
Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure"? Why does the King James say "falling away"?
Literally translated the word means the "departure" which of course could mean a departure from the faith, and thus, a rebellion (falling away, apostasy). But it could mean the departure Paul just talked about (2 Thessalonians 2:1) --the departure of the Church to be with the Lord.
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
:
I have to revisit this topic....please read
Apostasy or Departure?
http://www.4himnet.com/fbc/issue006.html
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
:
becauseHElives, can you possibly copy and paste the most important parts of the link here? If you can, that would be great.
love, Eden
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
I have to revisit this topic....please read
Apostasy or Departure?
http://www.4himnet.com/fbc/issue006.html
becauseHElives
I read your article. It supports the definition of "departure" and a pre-trib Rapture. Thank you for posting it.
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
:
Strong's Concordance
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let 1818 0 no 3361 man 5100 deceive 1818 you 5209 by 2596 any 3367 means 5158: for 3754 [that day shall not come], except 3362 there come 2064 a falling away 646 first 4412, and 2532 that man 444 of sin 266 be revealed 601 , the son 5207 of perdition 684;
646. apostasia, feminine of the same as 647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):--falling away, forsake.
So "apostasia" meant "defecting from something", like "defecting from the faith of Jesus and Yahweh".
And, when I think about it, such a "defecting from the faith of Jesus" has been occurring especially since the 1800s when the hypothesis of darwinism/evolution gained ground agains the "faith in Jesus", and even today, this "defection from the faith of Jesus" is accelerating, as most students graduating from college now ASSUME that darwinism/evolution is what "really happened" and "not that Jesus stuff".
In an earlier post, Carol Swenson wrote the following quote:
I think it means the departure Paul just talked about (2 Thessalonians 2:1) --the departure of the Church to be with the Lord.
So was Paul talking in 2 Thessalonians 2, or even in 2 Thessalonians 1 about a possible "defection FROM THE EARTH" instead of a "defectioin FROM THE FAITH OF JESUS"?
Let's see what 2 Thessalonians 2 actually says:
2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together to him,
2 That you be not soon shaken in mind or be troubled, neither by spirit nor by word nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away {Greek, apostasia first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
That "day of Christ that shall not come" refers to the "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together to him[/b]".
But then Paul says that that "day of Jesus's coming" and that "day of our gathering to Him" WILL NOT COME until FIRST there happens an "apostasia" or "defection from something".
And here we may well ask, "defection from what?" because it does not really say. But since Paul is talking to the Thessalonian Christian BELIEVERS in Jesus, it is reasonable to assume that Paul is saying that "a defection from the faith of Jesus must occur" BEFORE the "coming of the Lord Jesus" and BEFORE "our gathering together to Him".
So Carol Swenson wrote in the earlier post quote:
I think it means the departure Paul just talked about (2 Thessalonians 2:1) --the departure of the Church to be with the Lord.
This "defection" or "apostasia" happens BEFORE "our gathering together to Him" and thus the "apostasia" or "defection" CANNOT ALSO BE "our gathering together unto Him" because the "apostasia" or "defection" PRECEDES or HAPPENS BEFORE "our gathering together unto Him".
This "apostasia" or "defection from" must thus refer to "people defecting from the faith of Jesus and Yahweh", just as indeed has been happening IN DROVES since the 1800s and the advent of darwinism/evolution that now competes vigorously, and successfully, for the minds of our high school and college students who now pretty much "have accepted darwinism/evolution" as "what is really happening in the world", and "not that medieval Jesus stuff".
The "apostasia" or "defection from the faith of Jesus" has been in full swing since the 1800s, right up to today. But it PRECEDES our gathering together to Jesus", and thus CANNOT be the "gathering itself".
love, Eden
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on
:
Well obviously if you look up the KJV of "falling away" then you're going to get their definition. ![[updown]](graemlins/updown.gif)
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).
This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of A.D. 400 renders apostasia with the word "discessio", meaning "departure."
Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure"? Why does the King James say "falling away"?
Literally translated the word means the "departure" which of course could mean a departure from the faith, and thus, a rebellion (falling away, apostasy). But I think it means the departure Paul just talked about (2 Thessalonians 2:1)--the departure of the Church to be with the Lord.
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
:
Eden as you should know I do not change my mind easily ...
quote:
Is Apostasy—A Clear, Discernable Event? The New Testament teaches that apostasy had already arrived in the first century (cf. Acts 20:27-32; 1 Tim. 4:1-5; 2 Tim. 3:1-9; 2 Pet. 2:1-3; Jude 3-4, 17-21). Departure from the faith does not happen over night. It takes time. Such a process as departure from the faith would not denote a clear event as demanded by the language of this passage. E. Schuyler English: How would the Thessalonians, or Christians in any century since, be qualified to recognize “the apostasy” when it should come? There has been apostasy from God, rebellion against Him, since time began. Paul's reference to “the departure,” was obviously something that both he and the Thessalonian believers had discussed in-depth previously. When we examine Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians, he never mentions the doctrine of apostasy. However, virtually every chapter in that epistle speaks of the rapture (cf. 1:9-10; 2:19 ; probably 3:13 ; 4:13 -17; 5:1-11). It seems very likely that “the departure” is a reference to the rapture.
Dr. H. Wayne House: The departure of Christians to be with Christ, and the subsequent revelation of the lawless one, Paul argues, is proof that the Day of the Lord had not begun as they had thought. This understanding of apostasia makes much more sense than the view that they are to be comforted (v. 2) because a defection from the faith must precede the Day of the Lord.
Kenneth Wuest: I am driven to the inescapable conclusion that the apostasia (vs. 3) refers to the Rapture of the Church which precedes the Day of the Lord, and holds back the revelation of the Man of Sin.
There will be an apostasy or departure from the faith in the latter days. Paul wrote in:
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.
But how much apostasy will be sufficient to say without a doubt this is clearly the “ apostasia ” that Paul referred to in 2 Thessalonians? Remember that the Thessalonians did not have radio, TV or the internet by which they could get their news. They didn't have “The Barna Group” or “The Gallup Organization” taking polls about the doctrinal integrity of local churches. Local churches across the country could have abandoned sound doctrine and they would nev er have known it. A general departure from the faith would not have been a recognizable event in that day and age.
Opponents of the pretrib rapture often present an argument like this: If Paul had really taught the Thessalonians about a pretrib rapture then he could have easily cleared up this confusion they had. All he needed to do was to tell the Thessalonians that there was one sure fire way that they could tell this rumor about the Day of the Lord was false. They could know without a doubt that they were not in the tribulation because the Rapture had not taken place! Since Paul did not present this line of reasoning then we know that he never taught them a pretrib rapture!
I have to admit, that argument makes sense. But if apostasia does mean the departure of the church in rapture then that would settle the argument once and for all!
I find Kenneth Wuest to be very accurate and very honest in his translation of scripture.
for this reason I have to take a deeper look....
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
:
The claim that "falling away" could mean "departure" or "rapture" in 2Thessalonians 2:3's...........
3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
.......does not make sense.......
Please bear with me as I show you why it does not make sense. Take a look at at verse 1 (just two verses previous to the above verse). This is what it states........
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering unto Him,
.....now look at vs. 2
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
....now vs. 3 once again
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for THAT DAY shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
Do you see how we are shown (by Paul) that "that day"(in the above verse) is a direct reference to vs. 1's "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gatherering together unto Him?
The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto Him IS the "rapture".
Now, since we are shown this truth by surrounding text........it would not make sense to say that "falling away" could also mean "rapture"............
The argument that "falling away" could mean "rapture" would mean that vs. 3 would read like the following.............
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day(the rapture) shall not come, except there come a rapture first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
To sum up my point:
"Falling away" cannot mean "rapture" because the words "that day" in "that day shall not come" already mean rapture.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on
:
No one has ever said that "falling away" means "rapture".
We said that "apostasia" may not mean "falling away".
![[type]](graemlins/type.gif)
The second epistle of Paul to the Thessalonians was written to correct the erroneous notion among the Christians at Thessalonica that the persecutions from which they were suffering were those of “the great and awesome day of the Lord” (Joel 2:31) from which they had been taught to expect deliverance by “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him” (2 Thessalonians 2:1). The theme of this epistle, obscured by the mistranslation of the KJV in 2:2, “the day of Christ is at hand,” is correctly rendered in NASB “The day of the Lord has come.”
Purpose
Second Thessalonians was written to instruct the Thessalonians concerning the day of Christ “and our gathering together to Him” (2 Thessalonians 2:1) and to settle them in their conviction that in the day of Christ the Lord would appear to translate the living saints and to raise the deceased ones, so that actually the apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 is arguing for a pretribulation out-taking of the church as the Body of Christ. In 2:1-12 he outlines the events of the Day of the Lord that will occur after the out-taking of the church [Rapture].
(The New Unger's Bible Dictionary)
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
:
Hi Carol,
Would you please answer these questions? Yes or no
Do you(personally) believe that the KJV's use of the words "falling away" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 are erroneous?
and
Do you(personally) believe that the word "departure" (being understood as the "rapture") should be the correct biblical wording instead of "falling away?"
I have a Vines Concise dictionary of the Bible. It includes a translation of the original Greek and Hebrew words of the bible. This is what it states for the word "apostasia"
Apostacia (646) "a defection, revolt, apostacy," is used in the NT of religious apostacy; In Acts 21:21, it is translated "to forsake," lit., "thou teachest apostacy from Moses." IN 2 THESS. 2:3 "THE FALLING AWAY" SIGNIFIES APOSTACY FROM THE FAITH. In papyri documents it is used politically of rebels.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on
:
No, oneinchrist.
What I believe is that "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him" is the Rapture, and "the Day of the Lord" refers to the Tribulation.
Take a closer look at this verse:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (NASB)
1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
The New Testament calls the Day of the Lord a day of “wrath,” a day of “visitation,” and the “great day of God Almighty” (Revelation 16:14) and refers to a still future fulfillment when God’s wrath is poured out on unbelieving Israel (Isaiah 22; Jeremiah 30:1-17; Joel 1-2; Amos 5; Zephaniah 1) and on the unbelieving world (Ezekiel 38–39; Zechariah 14).
Paul appealed to the Thessalonians to "calm down" on the basis of the truth he had taught them in his first letter: the Lord would return and catch up His own to meet Him in the air (1 Thes. 4:13-18). This is "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and ... our gathering together unto Him" (2 Thes. 2:1).
Once the church is out of the world, Satan and his forces will unfold their program. The Day of the Lord is the period that follows the Rapture of the church. It will be a time of Tribulation for the people on earth: Satan and his hosts will be working on earth, and God will send righteous judgments from heaven. Revelation 6-19 describes this period for us.
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
:
So Carol ,I take it, you also believe that we must be raptured BEFORE the man of sin, son of perdition is revealed?
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
Based on the Rock of the Word of God, in essentials, unity; in non-essentials, charity.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
Amen
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
I also am pre-trib in my eschatology for I see from the Word that Christ returns for His Bride and those without the Holy Spirit are left behind as the Bride is taken.
I see from the Word a multitude in Glory, a glorious wedding prior to the Return of Christ.
It is Nation Israel who is the focus of the Tribulation, as judgment is poured-out.
The eschatology of the old church fathers is flawed in their replacement of Israel by the Church in their prophetic understanding.
John Wesley's Commentary on Rev. 12:
12:1 And a great sign was seen in heaven - Not only by St. John, but many heavenly spectators represented in the vision. A sign means something that has an uncommon appearance, and from which we infer that some unusual thing will follow. A woman - The emblem of the church of Christ, as she is originally of Israel, though built and enlarged on all sides by the addition of heathen converts; and as she will hereafter appear, when all her "natural branches are again "grafted in." She is at present on earth; and yet, with regard to her union with Christ, may be said to be in heaven, Ephesians 2:6. Accordingly, she is described as both assaulted and defended in heaven, verses 4, 7. Revelation 12:4,7 Clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars - These figurative expressions must he so interpreted as to preserve a due proportion between them. So, in Joseph's dream, the sun betokened his father; the moon, his mother; the stars, their children. There may be some such resemblance here; and as the prophecy points out the "power over all nations," perhaps the sun may betoken the Christian world; the moon, the Mahometans, who also carry the moon in their ensigns; and the crown of twelve stars, the twelve tribes of Israel; which are smaller than the sun and moon. The whole of this chapter answers the state of the church from the ninth century to this time.
Rev. 12:
1: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3: And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4: And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5: And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
It was NOT from the Church that the man-child was born. However in Wesley's day Nation Israel did not exist and he in his eschatology replaces Israel with the Church, as did the majority of the early theologians.
There are 77 references to Israel in the NT and none of them refer to the Church. Try replacing the words, "the Church," where Israel is mentioned and the passage is rendered unreadable and silly, e.g., Rom. 10:1, "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." If you put "the Church" where Israel is mentioned, then it is redundant. The Church is the body of saved believers, so how could Paul's prayer be for the Church to be saved?
Is it going to get rough in the last days for Believers?
YES!!!!!
Is the Lord going to catch-up His Bride prior to His return?
YES!!!!!!
Matt. 25:
5: While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6: And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7: Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8: And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9: But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10: And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11: Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12: But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13: Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
John 14:
1: Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3: And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
1 Thess. 14:
14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Place your faith and trust in Christ alone for your salvation.
Place your faith and trust in His Word for your understanding.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
Welcome back. poop head.
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
http://gracethrufaith.com/ikvot/defending-the-pre-trib-rapture-again/
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on
:
Drew,
Welcome back to the crazy farm. Great to see you again.
betty
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
Drew,
Welcome back to the crazy farm. Great to see you again.
betty
Good to see you again Sis. God bless you.
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
12 Contradictions in Post Trib Rapture
quote:
The post-tribulation Rapture position, while well-meaning, contradicts Scripture in a number of ways and must be laid aside by born-again Christians who desire to interpret Bible prophecy accurately. The post-tribulation Rapture position (1) contradicts Christ’s revelation to John that the 144,000 Jewish “first fruits” of God’s Tribulation harvest will be called to salvation before the earth is harmed; (2) fails to provide for persons to be left on earth in a flesh and blood bodies to repopulate Christ’s Millennial Kingdom; (3) rejects Christ’s unequivocal promise to keep born-again believers from “the hour of testing, which is to come upon the whole earth” (the Tribulation period); (4) fails to harmonize with Paul’s teaching that born-again Christians are not destined for wrath (the Tribulation period); (5) rejects Christ’s straightforward teaching on the unannounced, unexpected, any-moment nature of the Rapture; (6) fails to harmonize with Daniel’s Seventy Weeks prophecy; and (7) fails to harmonize with the Parable of the Ten Virgins.
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
I always prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
It does not matter one iota to me if our Lord takes us out prior to the Trib, in the middle of the Trib, or at the end of the Trib. It is His perfect will and eternal love for His precious children which matters to me. Whatever comes and if I die, praise God I get to go Home and be with Him.
One thing to keep in mind, is that there is scriptural validity for the Pre-Trib position, for the pre-wrath position, and far more validity to the Church exiting out to meet the Lord in the air, and being with Him in GLORY PRIOR to His triumphant return to begin His Righteous Reign, then there is for the Church to be gathered after the tares and upon His return as the post-tribbers teach.
Remember that the early Church writers were strongly influenced by replacement theology, and believed that the Church had replaced Israel in the prophetic.
No matter how the post-tribbers show their intrinsic animosity towards the pre-trib viewpoint, or narrow scripture to make their case, it in no way negates the validity of the pre-trib position and/or the pre-wrath position as substantiated in His Word.
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
:
Hi Caretaker,
Welcome back. Havent seen you in a while.
In reference to these two statements of yours:
1. I always prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
2.No matter how the post-tribbers show their intrinsic animosity towards the pre-trib viewpoint, or narrow scripture to make their case, it in no way negates the validity of the pre-trib position and/or the pre-wrath position as substantiated in His Word.
What about helping others prepare for the worst? If there is not a Great Tribulation(a time where men can still choose to repent and turn to God) that follows after the rapture, but instead the wrath of God being poured out..........Are you willing to take the accountability risk of preaching words that could lead men(indirectly) to believe that they can procrastinate until they "see" the Christ, and change their minds about God and salvation afterwards.
Do you get my point?
I am neither camp. I just read the bible and compare scripture with scripture. I see potentially dangerous implications with some assumptions.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Caretaker,
Welcome back. Havent seen you in a while.
In reference to these two statements of yours:
1. I always prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
2.No matter how the post-tribbers show their intrinsic animosity towards the pre-trib viewpoint, or narrow scripture to make their case, it in no way negates the validity of the pre-trib position and/or the pre-wrath position as substantiated in His Word.
What about helping others prepare for the worst? If there is not a Great Tribulation(a time where men can still choose to repent and turn to God) that follows after the rapture, but instead the wrath of God being poured out..........Are you willing to take the accountability risk of preaching words that could lead men(indirectly) to believe that they can procrastinate until they "see" the Christ, and change their minds about God and salvation afterwards.
Do you get my point?
I am neither camp. I just read the bible and compare scripture with scripture. I see potentially dangerous implications with some assumptions.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Its not a salvation issue Daniel. The Word says in 2 Cor. 6:2 that today is the day of salvation. The Word also declares that those who do not follow Christ face being deceived by the AC.
It is imperative for each person to receive Christ and to be ready for His Coming for the Bride.
Don't be one of the five foolish without oil in the lamp and of whom Christ says, "I know you not".
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
:
Hi Caretaker,
You said:
Its not a salvation issue Daniel. The Word says in 2 Cor. 6:2 that today is the day of salvation. The Word also declares that those who do not follow Christ face being deceived by the AC.
I do not think that you quite understood my point. I am not saying that a Christian's end-time view has a bearing on whether or not they will be saved. What I am saying is that by Christians who are willing to preach the certainty of a "Great tribulation" that will follow after the rapture, the unbeleiving could be mislead to think that they will be given another chance to repent if they miss the first train out. We could be misleading many people into procrastination(complacency) and thus doing the work of the devil, even contributing unintentionally to the destruction of their souls.
I believe that many are already being deceived by the anti-Christ. I do not believe in the anti-christ as some mysterious guy who just suddenly appears out of nowhere. The anti-christ is openly given his power to rule and nations adore him.
He rules and he continues to rule with hardly anyone questioning his authority to add or subtract from the scriptures. He allows himself to be exalted above all measure without any shame. The antichrist may have been here a long time already..........deceiving people all over the world who are in awe of his presence.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
:
Caretaker wrote to oneinchrist quote:
Don't be one of the five foolish without oil in the lamp and of whom Christ says, "I know you not".
When Jesus first told that parable, He was addressing Israel-Judah, and He was saying that those who accept Him as Messiah are compared to five wise virgins, and those who do not accept Him as Messiah are compared to five foolish virgins.
I believe that everything that happened to Israel-Judah is an example of what will happen to the people of the world when the Lord comes the second time.
That is, in our time, the five wise virgins represent those people in the world who HAVE accepted Jesus as the Messiah and He KNOWS them, and the five foolish virgins are those people in the world who have NOT accepted Jesus as the Messiah and He DOES NOT know them.
To repeat what Caretaker said to oneinchrist quote:
Don't be one of the five foolish without oil in the lamp and of whom Christ says, "I know you not".
oneinchrist is already a Christian, so oneinchrist is a wise virgin and Jesus already knows oneinchrist.
Matthew 10
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I also confess before my Father who is in heaven.
Luke 12:8
Also I say to you, Whosoever shall confess Me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God.
oneinchrist has confessed Jesus MANY TIMES before men, so both God the Father and the angels of God KNOW oneinchrist already.
love, Eden
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Caretaker wrote to oneinchrist quote:
Don't be one of the five foolish without oil in the lamp and of whom Christ says, "I know you not".
When Jesus first told that parable, He was addressing Israel-Judah, and He was saying that those who accept Him as Messiah are compared to five wise virgins, and those who do not accept Him as Messiah are compared to five foolish virgins.
I believe that everything that happened to Israel-Judah is an example of what will happen to the people of the world when the Lord comes the second time.
That is, in our time, the five wise virgins represent those people in the world who HAVE accepted Jesus as the Messiah and He KNOWS them, and the five foolish virgins are those people in the world who have NOT accepted Jesus as the Messiah and He DOES NOT know them.
To repeat what Caretaker said to oneinchrist quote:
Don't be one of the five foolish without oil in the lamp and of whom Christ says, "I know you not".
oneinchrist is already a Christian, so oneinchrist is a wise virgin and Jesus already knows oneinchrist.
Matthew 10
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I also confess before my Father who is in heaven.
Luke 12:8
Also I say to you, Whosoever shall confess Me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God.
oneinchrist has confessed Jesus MANY TIMES before men, so both God the Father and the angels of God KNOW oneinchrist already.
love, Eden
Marr. 25:
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Those who walk with Christ have the Holy Spirit dwelling within, oil in their lamps.
There are those whose fruit bears question as to the indwelling presence of God in their hearts.
How is your oil Eden/BA/deceiver of Brethren?
The Lord is returning to gather His Bride for the Wedding feast in Glory.
The post-tribulation Rapture fails to harmonize with the Parable of the Ten Virgins (Matt. 25:1-13).
The first century Jewish betrothal was unlike the typical Gentile engagement of today. In the Jewish betrothal, the bridegroom, after proposing to his loved one, would “go away” to his “father’s house” to “make a place” for them to live on the father’s land. Often he would be away for a year while he completed their home. Then, when the home was ready and all the arrangements had been made for the wedding feast, the bridegroom, in a touch of Jewish romance, would come for his bride unexpectedly, usually in the middle of the night. The bride, of course, was to be alert and ready for his return, eager to have their marriage consummated. To be fully prepared (after all, her groom might come for her in the middle of the night), she would have to have her lamp trimmed with oil so that she would have sufficient light to go out to greet him. And so it is to be with the Church, the Bride of Christ (Eph. 5:22-32; Rev. 19:7). All Christians indwelled with the Holy Spirit (the “oil”) are to be alert and ready (Matt. 25:13) for an unexpected, any-moment coming of the Bridegroom (Christ) to take them to the Father’s home for the consummation of their wedding (the completion and perfection of their salvation) and for the subsequent wedding banquet prepared for them by the Father. All “Christians” not indwelled with the Holy Spirit (i.e., persons who call themselves Christians but who are not born again) will be left behind on earth—and will not be able to attend the wedding banquet (Matt. 25:11-12). Because some of the Christians not having the oil (the Holy Spirit) will attempt to come to banquet “later” (Matt. 25:11), the interpreter of the passage can be sure that a period of time takes place between the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Christ (which takes place after the banquet—Rev. 19:7-16). Unfortunately, the post-tribulation Rapture viewpoint teaches that the Rapture and the Second Coming are simultaneous events—thus contradicting Christ’s teaching in Matthew 25:11.
http://revelationalive.net/materials/papers/post-trib-rapture/
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
Eden/BA/deceiver of Brethren diverting down a false rabbit trail:
quote:
To repeat what Caretaker said to oneinchrist
quote:Don't be one of the five foolish without oil in the lamp and of whom Christ says, "I know you not".
oneinchrist is already a Christian, so oneinchrist is a wise virgin and Jesus already knows oneinchrist.
Matthew 10
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I also confess before my Father who is in heaven.
Luke 12:8
Also I say to you, Whosoever shall confess Me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God.
oneinchrist has confessed Jesus MANY TIMES before men, so both God the Father and the angels of God KNOW oneinchrist already.
love, Eden
As with the Word of God, Eden/BA/DOB you have taken what I wrote to Daniel out of the context of the posting.
quote:
Its not a salvation issue Daniel. The Word says in 2 Cor. 6:2 that today is the day of salvation. The Word also declares that those who do not follow Christ face being deceived by the AC.
It is imperative for each person to receive Christ and to be ready for His Coming for the Bride.
Don't be one of the five foolish without oil in the lamp and of whom Christ says, "I know you not".
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
Not once did I question Daniel's own faith or walk with Christ, but was addressing his concern:
quote:
the unbeleiving could be mislead to think that they will be given another chance to repent if they miss the first train out. We could be misleading many people into procrastination(complacency) and thus doing the work of the devil, even contributing unintentionally to the destruction of their souls.
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
:
Genesis 4:13
... My punishment is greater than I can bear.
Eden
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Genesis 4:13
... My punishment is greater than I can bear.
Eden
Romans 2:
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
:
Hello again Caretaker,
Your post stated the following:
The post-tribulation Rapture fails to harmonize with the Parable of the Ten Virgins (Matt. 25:1-13).
and
Unfortunately, the post-tribulation Rapture viewpoint teaches that the Rapture and the Second Coming are simultaneous events—thus contradicting Christ’s teaching in Matthew 25:11.
END
I am having a hard time understanding how one single passage (Matthew 25:11) from the parable of the virgins could prove Pre-trib is right and Post-trib is wrong. How does the parable of the virgins show us the supposed chronology of end-time events?
The claim that Post-tribbers hold to the view that the "rapture" and "second coming" are simeltaneous events.........I do not know much about. But, as for me, I perceive from the scriptures that the "catching away" and "the coming of the Lord to take out the anti-Christ and establish His kingdom on earth" are separate events in the sense of being both unique and different fullfillments. It is possible, I think, that "The Day of the Lord" is a wording that carries the idea of a "chain of events" that will more or less begin with the "rapture" and finally culminate with the creation of the new heaven and earth(as opposed to a 24hr countdown type Day of the Lord).
With that being said, I still do not understand how you see a clear expression of chronology(what comes first, then next) just from the parable of the virgins.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
quote:
The post-tribulation Rapture fails to harmonize with the Parable of the Ten Virgins (Matt. 25:1-13).
The first century Jewish betrothal was unlike the typical Gentile engagement of today. In the Jewish betrothal, the bridegroom, after proposing to his loved one, would “go away” to his “father’s house” to “make a place” for them to live on the father’s land. Often he would be away for a year while he completed their home. Then, when the home was ready and all the arrangements had been made for the wedding feast, the bridegroom, in a touch of Jewish romance, would come for his bride unexpectedly, usually in the middle of the night. The bride, of course, was to be alert and ready for his return, eager to have their marriage consummated. To be fully prepared (after all, her groom might come for her in the middle of the night), she would have to have her lamp trimmed with oil so that she would have sufficient light to go out to greet him. And so it is to be with the Church, the Bride of Christ (Eph. 5:22-32; Rev. 19:7). All Christians indwelled with the Holy Spirit (the “oil”) are to be alert and ready (Matt. 25:13) for an unexpected, any-moment coming of the Bridegroom (Christ) to take them to the Father’s home for the consummation of their wedding (the completion and perfection of their salvation) and for the subsequent wedding banquet prepared for them by the Father. All “Christians” not indwelled with the Holy Spirit (i.e., persons who call themselves Christians but who are not born again) will be left behind on earth—and will not be able to attend the wedding banquet (Matt. 25:11-12). Because some of the Christians not having the oil (the Holy Spirit) will attempt to come to banquet “later” (Matt. 25:11), the interpreter of the passage can be sure that a period of time takes place between the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Christ (which takes place after the banquet—Rev. 19:7-16). Unfortunately, the post-tribulation Rapture viewpoint teaches that the Rapture and the Second Coming are simultaneous events—thus contradicting Christ’s teaching in Matthew 25:11.
http://revelationalive.net/materials/papers/post-trib-rapture/
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
:
Hi Caretaker,
Your post said:
All “Christians” not indwelled with the Holy Spirit (i.e., persons who call themselves Christians but who are not born again) will be left behind on earth—and will not be able to attend the wedding banquet (Matt. 25:11-12).
END
So is there going to be another wedding banquet after the Great Tribulation?....... for those who change their minds about the Lord.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on
:
Clear as a bell. One Lord, one Bride, one Wedding Banquet.
quote:
All “Christians” not indwelled with the Holy Spirit (i.e., persons who call themselves Christians but who are not born again) will be left behind on earth—and will not be able to attend the wedding banquet (Matt. 25:11-12). Because some of the Christians not having the oil (the Holy Spirit) will attempt to come to banquet “later” (Matt. 25:11), the interpreter of the passage can be sure that a period of time takes place between the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Christ (which takes place after the banquet—Rev. 19:7-16). Unfortunately, the post-tribulation Rapture viewpoint teaches that the Rapture and the Second Coming are simultaneous events—thus contradicting Christ’s teaching in Matthew 25:11.
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
:
Caretaker wrote quote:
Because some of the Christians not having the oil (the Holy Spirit)...
ALL Christians receive the down payment of the Holy Spirit once they are saved, else the Resurrected Living Lord Jesus in heaven would not be able to communicate with the new Christian.
John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said to you.
John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth which proceeds from the Father, He shall testify of Me.
John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
Is Jesus departed? Yes He is. Then He has sent the Holy Spirit to each believer, so that Jesus can communicate from heaven with that believer.
Corinthians 1:22
Who also has sealed us and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
2 Corinthians 5:5
Now he who has wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also has given to us the earnest of the Spirit.
Romans 8:27
And He who searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
To repeat what my Christian brother Caretaker wrote quote:
Because some of the Christians not having the oil (the Holy Spirit)...
ALL Christians recieve the Holy Spirit when they believe, else they cannot hear properly from God.
love, Eden
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
:
Caretaker wrote quote:
How is your oil Eden?
I checked it last week and it was about three-quarters below the Full line ... how was your oil the last time you checked, Caretaker? It was probably Full, huh? Or was only Jesus Full?
love, Eden
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on
:
The oil here represents the Spirit of God. It isn't something to make fun of.
I would say that yes, Caretaker is filled.
The greatest need of the born again Christian is to be filled with the Holy Spirit. When we are under the control of the Holy Spirit, we will always glorify Jesus Christ. He will be exalted in our speech and in our behavior.
The apostle Paul issued an imperative command when he wrote, “Be filled with the Spirit” (Ephesians 5:18).
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Caretaker,
Your post said:
All “Christians” not indwelled with the Holy Spirit (i.e., persons who call themselves Christians but who are not born again) will be left behind on earth—and will not be able to attend the wedding banquet (Matt. 25:11-12).
END
So is there going to be another wedding banquet after the Great Tribulation?....... for those who change their minds about the Lord.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Does not sound like it Daniel. It says to be ready, NOT that we can go and get ready later.
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
It is not lip-service "Christians" Eden/BA/DOB, but those in whose hearts God's Holy Spirit dwells.
External fruit is evidence of the internal presence of God.
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
What does the LORD GOD think about those who would lie to and deceive the brethren?
Good fruit or bad fruit?
I think I would check my oil AND see how my fruit is doing.
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
:
Hi Caretaker,
Thank you for your response.
I am somewhat confused now. I thought that you held to the Pre-tribulation belief as sound biblical doctrine.
Doesnt the Pre-trib theology teach that unbelievers can be converted to Christ during the Great tribulation?(You know, the "left behinders" who can still be martyed to make it into heaven thing) .......which is something you do not appear(based on your above response) to believe yourself.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on
:
quote:
You know, the "left behinders" who can still be martyed to make it into heaven thing
No one ever taught that here. People will be martyred for their faith. It is their faith in Jesus Christ, not the martyrdom, that assures salvation.
Revelation 7 (NASB)
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation , and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Tribulation Saints, both those martyred and those who survive the Tribulation, will be welcomed into the Millennium Kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ. BUT they will have missed the Marriage Supper of the Lamb that was celebrated soon after the Rapture.
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
:
Hi Carol,
I am merely stating what I believe is contained IN the theology of the Pre-trib. belief.......and based on my perceived understanding.....it appears to me that Caretaker doesnt hold to a strict Pre-trib belief.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Carol,
I am merely stating what I believe is contained IN the theology of the Pre-trib. belief.......and based on my perceived understanding.....it appears to me that Caretaker doesnt hold to a strict Pre-trib belief.
With love in Christ, Daniel
I look at eschatology from a Biblical context, Daniel, and the Marriage of the Lamb from a Jewish Wedding perspective:
1) the marriage contract or betrothal, which was initiated between the parents of the bride and the representative of the bridegroom. This was usually confirmed by oaths and a gift (dowry) to the bride's family;
(2) the marriage ceremony or wedding procession, which involved the bridegroom and his friends. They would come to the bride's home to take her back to the house of the bridegroom or the bridegroom's father; and
(3) the marriage supper or feast, which would be at the bridegroom's house or his father's
(4) the presentation of the Bride
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
:
Revelation 7 (NASB)
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation , and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
What if we(the world) has already entered into the time of Great tribulation? jAs we speak, Christians are being imprisoned, persecuted, and martyed in various parts of the world. They are dying and entering into the Kingdom of Heaven as the prophecy of the Revelation given to John indicates. If the Great trib has already begun, then (and this gets back to the point that I am trying to stress to fellow followers of Jesus) there is not going to be an "additional time of repentance and turning to God" after the coming of Jesus, but a rapture (in the blink of an eye) and sudden wrath that comes those who have chosen to reject the Son and His offer of eternal life......The end........scary for the t unbelieving, but a welcoming event for us who cant wait to see Jesus and His glorious appearance.
My friends, listen to me.......lets live like there is no tomarrow and Jesus can come at any moment, and like there may not be any more chances to repent after Jesus' coming. Unbelievers need to know and understand that God is loving, but they also need to know and understand that God, at some point in time (which I believe is the rapture) will end His patience and gather and separate us all towards our eternal destination.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
:
Revelation 7 (NASB)
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation , and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
What if we(the world) has already entered into the time of Great tribulation? As we speak, Christians are being imprisoned, persecuted, and martyed in various parts of the world. They are dying and entering into the Kingdom of Heaven as the prophecy of the Revelation given to John indicates. If the Great trib has already begun, then (and this gets back to the point that I am trying to stress to fellow followers of Jesus) there is a possiblity that there is not going to be an "additional time of repentance and turning to God" after the coming of Jesus, but a rapture (in the blink of an eye) and sudden wrath that comes upon those who have chosen to reject the Son and His offer of eternal life......The end........scary for the unbelieving, but a welcoming event for us who cant wait to see Jesus and His glorious appearance.
My friends, listen to me.......lets live like there is no tomarrow and Jesus can come at any moment, and like there may not be any more chances to repent after Jesus' coming. Unbelievers need to know and understand that God is loving, but they also need to know and understand that God, at some point in time (which I believe is the rapture) will end His patience and gather and separate us all towards our eternal destination.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on
:
The Lord is omniscient, and His timing is always perfect.
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
:
oneinchrist wrote quote:
Unbelievers need to know and understand that God is loving, but they also need to know and understand that God, at some point in time (which I believe is the rapture) will end His patience and gather and separate us all towards our eternal destination.
At the flood of Noah, the LORD shut the door of the ark:
Genesis 7:16
And they that went in, male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him; and the LORD shut him in.
Luke 17:26
As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
There were no more chances after the LORD shut the door of the ark.
Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
1 Peter 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate and narrow is the way, which leads to life, and few there be that find it.
love, Eden
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
oneinchrist wrote quote:
Unbelievers need to know and understand that God is loving, but they also need to know and understand that God, at some point in time (which I believe is the rapture) will end His patience and gather and separate us all towards our eternal destination.
At the flood of Noah, the LORD shut the door of the ark:
Genesis 7:16
And they that went in, male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him; and the LORD shut him in.
Luke 17:26
As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
There were no more chances after the LORD shut the door of the ark.
Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
1 Peter 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate and narrow is the way, which leads to life, and few there be that find it.
love, Eden
Your Michel Harrison Hodge-podge again shows your ignorance of the Age of Grace ending in the Harpazo of the Body of Christ.
I suggest you to learn how to Rightly divide the Word before posting again.
Rom.16
[25] Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
:
WildB wrote to Eden quote:
I suggest you to learn how to rightly divide the Word before posting again.
Don't be cantankerous, WildB. Not everyone can be as brilliant as you. Rejoice in your salvation.
Romans 15:1
We then who are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
love, Eden
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
WildB wrote to Eden quote:
I suggest you to learn how to rightly divide the Word before posting again.
Don't be cantankerous, WildB. Not everyone can be as brilliant as you. Rejoice in your salvation.
Romans 15:1
We then who are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
love, Eden
OKy Doky mufuart.
Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM
6.5.0