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Topic: Sinless Perfection
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Carol Swenson
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Member # 6929
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posted
Of course you were! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Where did everybody go?
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
Its interesting to re-read and remember how things were years ago.
One can see ones own personal growth and that of the fellowship of the long time posters.
Of course I was the only one that knew what was happening lol.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Carol Swenson
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posted
Since the boards have been quiet for awhile, I hope KnowHim will forgive me if I bump up a few of the lively discussions we had in the past?
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Michael Harrison
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Perhaps someone has not been around here long enough to have read it, but I have often said this: The word 'Mature' is a worldly term. It describes a worldly condition. People who 'rationalize' the scripture prefer this word to the King James rendition which uses the word 'perfect'. Remember that to 'rationalize' means to dilute it until one can get his or her understanding around it. That is different from being 'broken', wherein one's understanding is crashed so that the spiritual "new creation," that a person is, can grasp the REVELATION of the meaning. So rationalizers miss the point (and teach others to do so Matt 5:19).
And here is the premier verse to consider: Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
How does it read if one substitutes the word 'mature' for perfect? Be ye therefore mature, even as your Father in Heaven. Well, God is not worldly. As we said, the term 'mature' is a worldly description. But God is Spirit. And GOD, is PERFECT! So we cannot be mature as HE is mature. He is beyond mature. And Jesus speaks decisively.
And is it not a command, "Be ye perfect?" Yet, who stated it? And does HE not perform what HE commands? Scripture says, after all that HIS word will not return to Him void. Therefore to 'enter' into His rest, one has to allow HIS performance of the command HE gave. For one cannot himself perform it. But faith transfers it to Him to perform on one's behalf, as it is written: "Abraham 'believed' God and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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Carol, these arguments 'against', are most common (and unfortunately, crude). If anyone wants to find an excuse it is so easy, more so than anything. They abound. By the way, it is not to me, nor to anyone else however, that these arguments need to be presented - but personally to Him. Let every dissenter who is so bold, tell his story directly to Him. After all, who am I? But it is easy to respond to me as though I am a phoney, or to tell others why one cannot, or does not measure up. But in all confidence, tell HIM if you are so sure. Before you do, take into account this scripture: "Be not deceived, for whatsoever a man seweth, that shall he also reap." I hope that sobers someone up. But I doubt it. It cannot be comprehended by anyone who thinks they have a part in accomplishing their salvation or sanctification. But He doesn’t share that work.
Love - me!
I so wanted to have a conversation with the late Dr. Mcgee. For he also encountered some 'claiming' to be sanctified. Based on this he composed an interesting radio sermon about coming across these who claimed this nature while in bible school (then in a few other situations). In fact, said he, he asked for another room so as to avoid such an one, and continued his schooling apart from this individual. ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif) But in judging those in whom he could not see the grace of God, he deprived himself.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Keeper
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Carol, Thank You, that is a most outstanding post.
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Carol Swenson
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Those who teach sinless perfection make a number of major errors in interpretation. I will mention three of them.
They misinterpret a few key passages .
• For instance, (they) use Galatians 2:17 which states, "But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid." Verse 16 had just made a wonderful statement on justification by faith. This verse which immediately follows shows us that if we are found to be sinners while we seek to be justified by Christ, then Christ is not the source of our sin. It does not teach that a justified believer cannot commit any sin. This is preposterous. It is also contradicted by many passages in the Bible. It simply teaches that Christ is not the source of sin in the believer.
• Another verse you usually see in this teaching is 1 John 3:9, which states, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." I recognize that this is a challenging verse, but it is not impossible.
The verse has at least three possible interpretations: 1) sinless perfection; 2) that the one who is born of God does not habitually commit serious sin; 3) that the part of man that is born again [his spirit] does not commit sin.
I lean to the third interpretation, but I know that the first interpretation must be wrong. The first epistle of John was written one man at one time to a certain group of people. He is not going to teach two completely opposite doctrines to the same people at the same time. This would be confusion. Yet, John is clear in teaching that believers do commit sins. 1 John 1:8 states, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." More evidence can be found in 1 John 1:10 and 2:1. This passage cannot teach what some claim. Therefore, an alternative has to be found and there are viable alternatives.
They confuse the believer's position with his practice (this distinction is what some call standing and state).
• Position - the person who has trusted in Jesus Christ as personal Saviour and has been born again is placed, or positioned, in Christ. That is why so many New Testament verses speak of us being "in him." In Christ the Father sees us as sinlessly perfect. We are complete in Him (Colossians 2:10). In Christ, we are already seated in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6). That is, we are already positionally in heaven. What we have by being in Christ is the possession of every believer.
• Practice - this refers to the practical daily life and walk of the believer. We may have all things in Christ, but that does not mean that we apply all of these things to our daily lives. God sees me as perfect in Christ, but I may not live perfectly in practice. Our calling is to bring our practice into line with our position. We are to walk worthy of our calling (Ephesians 4:1) and to apprehend that for which we are also apprehended of Christ (Philippians 3:12).
• Note: if one reads only the passages dealing with our position and ignores those dealing with our practice, he can teach sinless perfection. But this entirely misses the point.
They weaken the Biblical meaning of sin, sometimes to the point of redefining what sin is.
Those who claim sinless perfection tend to minimize sin . Years ago, I heard a preacher talk about his personal experience. He worked with a man who claimed to be sinless. One day, this man was hammering a nail, struck his finger instead, and let out a curse word. When reminded that he was supposed to be sinless, he replied, "O no, that was just a mistake. It was not a real sin." Consider the following Biblical definitions of sin.
• Sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4)
• All unrighteousness is sin (1 John 5:17); that is, if it is not righteous, it is sin.
• Failing to do something you should have done is sin, because James 4:17 states, "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."
• Whatsoever is not done in faith is sin (Roman 14:23)
• The thought of foolishness is sin (Proverbs 24:9)
• A proud heart is sin (Proverbs 21:4)
This last one may be the most condemning of all. For, when one man says to another, I have no sin, he certainly reveals his proud heart. We should always seek to live the life of Christ in our own bodies. We should desire the victorious Christian life. But more than all, we should seek to know Him, the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings (Philippians 3:10).
Reagan, David
http://www.learnthebible.org/sinless-perfection.html
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Keeper
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posted
Subject of this Forum is: Sinless Perfection
Question asked in opening Post; Can a believer be sinlessly perfect?
Those sinful acts that trouble our conscience and cause so much unhappiness are expressions of a warped and distorted nature.
No matter how much we struggle to control our actions, there is nothing we can do about the nature from which they issue.
However, the picture that Scripture paints of sin and its consequences is actually a good word from God. It is good because it turns our eyes away from ourselves and our futile efforts to be good and challenges us to search for a remedy.
Of course, you know the remedy. We surrender our hope in ourselves and instead place our hope in God. As we continue to learn of sin we also learn of the motivation to look to Jesus and rely only on him for both forgiveness and renewal.
Furthermore, when you use the word "perfection" when speaking of biblical terms, think twice. It usually does not mean what we consider "perfection" to mean down at the coffee shop or in the sale barn. It simply means that (lets stick to the sin subject) you through the help of Jesus have all that can be expected of you considering. You have turned it over to him and acted on it as he would have. Stuff like that.
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Found in Him
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Yahsway writes...I was wondering, if it is appointed for man ONCE to die, how could Moses be one of the 2 witnesses since he already died once?
Well, how about Lazarus then? He died twice didn't he?
I think God will be God.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Keeper
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Actually, I am as sure that it will be Moses included as I am you or me.
If I didn't I should have said; It has been suggested that Moses will be one of the two witnesses.
This is just another question for a bible lawyer to answer. I read that here a while back. You can always find a "But what about......???" if you look. If you try to cover all the bases when reading the bible, you may go crazy. In this case when it says that the Christian is to only die once, does the word really need to add that there is an exception in the case of Moses, or the two witnesses, stuff like that? hehe
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yahsway
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I was wondering, if it is appointed for man ONCE to die, how could Moses be one of the 2 witnesses since he already died once?
Enoch and Elijah on the other hand were both taken as scripture reveals.
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Keeper
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EDEN AND CARETAKER...Well it took a while for someone to respond to that assumption about Moses.
CARETAKER; Thanks for answering Edens question.
EDEN; I'm not sure what you call the way Moses arrived to be transfigured like in Matt 17:1-3. It could also be that he and Elijah will be the 2 witnesses, I don't know. We all like to put handles on everything and figure it all out so we can approve of God's way of doing things.
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Good Morning David,
Yes, I did watch the video. I should have said in my response that I was in agreement with the content of the video so that there would have not been any confusion on that end. I was only trying to help build upon your case(with the bible footnotes that I provided), not fight against it. If I disagree with something I usually state flat out what I disagree with and why. Once again, sorry about the confusion.
With love in Christ, Daniel
OIC NP
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
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One might want to note that it was Moses and Elijah who appeared with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration:
Matt. 17:
1: And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2: And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3: And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Moses and Elijah could also be the Two Witnesses of Revelation.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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oneinchrist
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Good Morning David,
Yes, I did watch the video. I should have said in my response that I was in agreement with the content of the video so that there would have not been any confusion on that end. I was only trying to help build upon your case(with the bible footnotes that I provided), not fight against it. If I disagree with something I usually state flat out what I disagree with and why. Once again, sorry about the confusion.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Eden
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Hi, Keeper, you wrote the following: quote:
Are you serious, Who is Moses? What about him?`
Well, he wrote the first 5 books of the bible in the OT. Israels great hero who delivered God's people out of Egypt, gave them God's law, and led them to the borders of the promised land. He died about 1400 BC.
The reason I mentioned him was that he was taken up also.
I assume that you base the idea that Moses was also taken up on this scripture alone?
Jude 1:9
But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
But on the other hand the Bible says that Moses DIED:
Hebrews 10:28 (NIV)
Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Sorry, LOL, I added that scripture as a joke.
But here is the other one in which Moses DIED and was BURIED and "to this day no one knows where the grave of Moses is":
Deuteronomy 34
5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man know of his sepulchre unto this day.
Personally, I find the more ancient Old Testament Deuteronomy 34:5-6 verses MUCH MORE COMPELLING EVIDENCE than what Jude stated 1,450 years later in the New Testament.
So let's see again what Jude said:
Jude 1:9
But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!
Since Moses DIED and was BURIED, I think we need to come up with another interpretation of Jude 1:9 than that it is evidence that "Moses was also caught up", like Enoch and Elijah. But WHAT that interpretation exactly would be, I don't claim to know right now...
love, Eden
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Keeper
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May I suggest that you not beat yourself up for a misread ?
Trust me; it happens on this board all the time.
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KnowHim
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>>>> Now, if you feel that you have accomplished all that, then go ahead and call yourself perfect. No one will believe you though. hehe
No one will believe you though
Very true, I have not come across a perfect person yet..... hehehehehe ![[roll on floor]](graemlins/6.gif)
But everyone knows I am perfect, -->> "For some reason I read fowler as founder."...... RIGHT!
If I have to be perfect I am in big trouble, but I know who is perfect and there I place my faith. Jesus Christ
2 Timothy 1:12 (King James Version)
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
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Keeper
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Well, if you wish to get the full low down on perfection, I am your man, being perfect myself...LOL...Just joking !
During the NT period including now, Perfect (Greek-teleios) was a word used by Jesus and the NT writers. When applied to people, it simply means "fulfilled" or "mature" or "fully equipped for a task".
Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus;
Haven't you ever looked at someone or something and made the comment..."perfect"? That is more like the description than what some think it means. Jesus was perfect. We might be called wannabe's but not just yet. It comes with our new spiritual bodies.
For those who study for exceptions, yes, there are some.
1 Cor 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
So, like I said, when Jesus comes, the prophecies and expectations and hopes will be fulfilled and be done away with.
1 John 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear; because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
So, stop your frettin and fill your heart with Love for the master and that will get you even closer to Him, which is about as perfect as can be expected.
If you are concerned about OT Law, it made nothing perfect. The sacrifices could not complete the salvation. Only Jesus could complete such.
So, when Paul says in 2 Cor 13:9-11 that his prayers are for his readers to "aim for perfection" the focus is aimed at Christian maturity and hope. Hope opens the door to a better future with Jesus Christ and more able to grow to be like Him in the future.
Now, if you feel that you have accomplished all that, then go ahead and call yourself perfect. No one will believe you though. hehe
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Know Him,
It seems that there is much controversy on 1 John 3:9...... Whoever has been born of God does not commit sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
My bible footnotes for 1 John 3:6-9 state as follows:
John does not teach perfectionism; otherwise he would contradict himself (see 1:8,9). Although interpretations of this text vary, it seems Johns argument is grammatically based. By using the Greek present tense he does not declare that Christians are unable to commit an occasional act of sin (see 1:8-10; 2:1), but that they are not characterized by the spirit of lawlessness (v.4), powerlessly led into a habitual practice of sin. Sin is natural to the children of the devil, who has sinned from the beginning, but unnatural to the children of God, who cannot sin without the Spirit's conviction. A constant indulgence of sin contradicts the claim to have a personal knowledge of Christ. END
Its interesting to note that some bibles say.........Whoever has been born of God does not sin and some other bibles say Whoever has been born of God does not "commit" sin. Personally, I believe that the newer versions should have followed suit with the King James. It does appear that the ommission of the word "commit" could put a different slant on the overall expressed meaning that John is trying to convey.
with love in Christ, Daniel
Did you even watch the video? It is not teaching perfectionism.
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KnowHim
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OK, back to the subject of this thread.
I did not make the video but thought it was very good. For those that can not view the video this is what it says about Sinless Perfection.
1 Thessalonians 4:3 (King James Version)
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, ...
There are two extreme views regarding salvation.
The belief that a person must be sinless to be saved and
1. Regarding being sinlessly perfect, it is simply not possible this side of heaven as our sinful nature remains part of us until we see Jesus. But when we do see Him, He "will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body."
Philippians 3:21 (King James Version)
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Regarding heaven, it is true that "nothing impure will ever enter it".
Revelation 21:27 (King James Version)
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
but that does not mean we must live a sinless life to get there. When a person is abiding in Christ he is considered pure as 1 John 3:7 tells us that "He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous".
1 John 3:7 (King James Version)
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Doing what is righteous is nothing more than living out 1 John 1:9 which says,
1 John 1:9 (King James Version)
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 2:1-2 tells us that if we do sin then we have Jesus to turn to for forgiveness. All God requires of us is that we confess and repent - that is what is meant by abiding in Christ, living by the Spirit, walking with Jesus etc.
There is more to the video but that is all I typed.
.
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by TB125:
KnowHim,
I don't think that Keeper was referring to you in his comment and reference to the "local fowler". I think that he was talking about MH.
Thanks for pointing this out. For some reason I read fowler as founder. I don't know why but that is what I thought it said.
God bless,
David
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by Keeper:
Thank You TB125.
KnowHim....The post that you are saying I wrote to you was obviously written to Jumping Jack and I was obviously talking about Harrison.
Jumping Jack's post followed by mine are both dated May 29 and the time is 10:04 PM.
I cannot imagine how you would think that what I said had anything to do with you. Even you were drawn into all the controversies and probably why you are here now. (?) I had hoped that I had straightened out our last misunderstanding and now this one?
Like I said before Know Him, if you want to get rid of me, you don't need to bother with warnings just tell me and I will git.
keeper,
For some reason I read fowler as founder. I don't know why but that is what I thought it said. I do apologizes and not I am not trying to get rid of you. I am glad this was pointed out to me.
God bless,
David
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
OninChrist... "in my Fathers house are many mansions". Undecided children won't make it past the SONS mansions. They'll never even approach the Fathers mansions of Havona itaself! I don't know who will or won't be found on the system mansions. Final decision WILL be made on the mansion worlds IF not during mortal life on our native planet. The Creator Himself Bestowed Himself as a mortal on our planet almost 2000 years ago. I'm sure if there is ANY doubt as to whether ANY of HIS children can be saved, they'll be resurrected on the SONS mansions - where there's no confusion - and they'll be required to make final decision as to thier eternal survival. I'm not prepared to say that the mortal life is the last chance for all to decide. Nonetheless, If the issues ARE clear - and the child DOES in full knowledge reject the truth - free from ANY confusion during the course of mortal lifetime in the flesh, there's no second chances, either. Some undoubtedly won't even make it to the "second desth" - most unbelievers probably will though, as mixed up as humanity has become on this particular planet! Obviously...those who have chosen life before departing will also be resurrected, thier decidion reaffirmed - and they won't see the "second death" either. All this is LONG before we EVER get close to Heaven Proper. Don't really think that sounds much like universal salvation - could be wrong.
jumpinjack, I am accused of speaking 'funny' words. If I may, yours are curious also. Note the emboldened statements at the top.
I have to note that no man is is a child of God until he believes. The rest are excluded. Therefore I don't follow you about the 'sons' mansions. Are you dividing heaven up into categories wherein there are 'groups' of mansions that house different levels of 'faiths' or believing people? After all, seeing it as a 'system' is a bit distant.
While I am here:
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
We who have believed, have received a 'quickening' Spirit. That means HE hath made us alive together with Him. Therefore it takes two: Him, and us, 'quickened' together, to be a whole man.
Now:
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Being 'quckened' together with Him, we are 'in' the ARK. However our bodies are flesh and blood. Therefore they will not go to heaven without being changed. Hence the verses above. For flesh and blood do not 'inherit' the Kingdom (though according to scripture, they are 'quickened', meaning temporarily sanctified). But since it will not inherit heaven, at the last trump we will received a glorified body, which you will notice, will consist of flesh and bone. Jesus is the life blood.
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Keeper
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Are you serious, Who is Moses? What about him?`
Well, he wrote the first 5 books of the bible in the OT. Israels great hero who delivered God's people out of Egypt, gave them God's law, and led them to the borders of the promised land. He died about 1400 BC.
The reason I mentioned him was that he was taken up also.
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Keeper
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JumpingJack...Boinggg!
I am going to comment on some things you have said. I think I understand a lot of your expressive descriptions. (?)
I am going to touch on this again but let's think of it this way...No second chances for salvation after the first death.
Yes, we will all be resurrected and will face the throne and judgement. Those who did not accept Jesus as savior will die a second death.
Look here my little spring loaded boxed up friend, I have seen enough to suggest, like some others have done, that you might stop boinking in your present church. I think that Jesus would suggest the same thing. Go to the Holy Spirit and ask Him...then wait for an answer.
If you have a problem with death and what you call a torture sleep, take it up with the Holy Spirit. The rules are written, and He can help you to understand if you ask him to do so. I feel that you are confused a little about some issues here.
Those who refused Jesus, however they did it, are destined for Hell, just like their god, Satan.
You made a good list of those who will most likely end up in the millennium given a chance to hear the gospel and accept Jesus along with the Jews and others. In other words, those who never accepted Jesus as savior due to no fault of their own, will be given the opportunity and will also be tested. That post was 5/29, 11:27pm
It is only fair that those who die the second time do so by choice, and in fairness to the believers.
Christ did pay for our sins. We can accept that fact by believing in Him, asking forgiveness of those sins He bought with His blood and ask to be made a child of God. If you don't believe in Him, you are toast.
It is wrong, I can comfortably say, that there are many mansions on other planets. A faulty imagination would only suggest such a thing.
Jesus said that He was preparing those mansions in heaven. They eventually will end up here on this planet round about Israel. I suggest you leave the planets up to NASA.
No one will live in this flesh and blood body forever. Leave Enoch and Elijah and Moses, etc out of this conversation. Paul said we are all going to die. (stop putting question marks all over this) Remember the seed illustration? I think you need to do some work on the death and resurrection subject. Everyone will stand judgement, good and bad.
Forget purgatory, it won't happen.
Mortal means likely to die. It is necessary if you are to receive an immortal body like you said. Mortal bodies die. Leave it at that.
Everyone wants to note all the details and word punctuation, etc. It wasn't told, so stop trying to add what isn't.
Resurrection bodies are not provided for having the ability to get a second chance or seeing a place like heaven and deciding that it is alright after all. I agree with you about Hell.
If I ain't goin I am not concerned about it unless of course for the lost. If you are a Christian you need not worry about hell either or second chances other than the fact that God gives us all our due and is fair.
Try to keep things simple and stop confusing the issues. Why call Jesus Ben Joseph or whatever?
Everyone knows who Jesus is so us it. You know what happened when you tickled us with Ben Joseph.
I also suggested that you make yourself as clear as you can if you want clear responses. You will find however, that your posts will not always be read properly also. Every word can be very clear and still be read wrong. Gotta learn to live with it. Not everyone is perfect like me. LOL
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Keeper
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Thank You TB125.
KnowHim....The post that you are saying I wrote to you was obviously written to Jumping Jack and I was obviously talking about Harrison.
Jumping Jack's post followed by mine are both dated May 29 and the time is 10:04 PM.
I cannot imagine how you would think that what I said had anything to do with you. Even you were drawn into all the controversies and probably why you are here now. (?) I had hoped that I had straightened out our last misunderstanding and now this one?
Like I said before Know Him, if you want to get rid of me, you don't need to bother with warnings just tell me and I will git.
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TB125
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posted
KnowHim,
I don't think that Keeper was referring to you in his comment and reference to the "local fowler". I think that he was talking about MH.
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Bob
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oneinchrist
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Hi again jj,
Thank you for the clarification on your post. Its not the first time I have ever witnessed other names being used for the same Jesus that we all know and love. I just have two questions to ask you now?
1.Where do you get the information about the "planets and mansion worlds"(plural)that you have brought up in your posts?
and
2.Do you believe that Jesus Christ is Lord?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by Keeper:
Learning to state your case so it will be well understood helps out on this board. Otherwise this board is like a water board.
You need to think ahead here, because if there is an opening for a correction, someone will surely have their correction hat on on that day.
Be patient, we have been going through a lot of turmoil here lately. Anything you had to say would be attacked by the local fowler and you would be left laying at the side of the road bleeding and suffering. All but he was lost and didn't get it, in HIM. It hasn't been pretty.
Perhaps you have met this self appointed giant of Christianity.
One more time telling lies and you will be banned. I have not done anything like you are saying. That is enough.
.
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by jumpinjack:
Carol...
Christ's universe is composed of a great many more than just one inhabited planet. Hence...His statement "I have sheep not of this fold". The planets are grouped into thousands, hundreds of thousands, and hundreds of hundreds of thousands. Each group is administered seperately at each level. The "mansion worlds" are found at each level. Educational spheres, created, and maintained seperate from the mortal spheres (like ours). Before we are passed to the next "level" final decision will have been made regarding eternal survival -Faith in Christ - no matter which of the thousand planets we come from. Next we go to the next level - where there are a hundred groups of a thousand planets. More "mansion worlds". Then on to a hundred groups of a hundred thousand planets. All this LONG before we reach the Father's Heaven.
DON'T start teaching this on this message board as it is NOT in the bible the word of God.
.
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
quote:
Originally posted by jumpinjack:
Sounds like I can't believe in Christ unless I agree with you to me.
No Jack. Whether you believe in Christ or not is between you and God.
Believers will produce fruit of the Spirit which is evidence of their belief.
Your fruit is far more that of an adversary, opposed to the basic tenants of the Christian faith.
The Word of God stands Jack, and when you are in direct opposition to the teachings of Christ then you become an adversary.
This is very true. The word of God is truth. If one thinks they hear from God but what they say they hear is contrary to the word of God they are not hearing from God.
.
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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Betty Louise
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posted
Jack,
You seem and I am not in no means judging you, but your postings show a person who is not comfortable with some of the aspects of God and what He says He will do and not do. So it seems you are adding to the Bible and taken away from the Bible in order to make a Gospel that is more pleasing to you.
Let me explain. You don't like the thought of a God that sends people to hell, so you invent your theory that mankind will be given a second chance in the after life. This is a lie. Is it sad to see that some of the nicest people are sinners and are destined for hell? Of course it is!! The problem is when we began redefining God we are no longer serving the God of the Bible, but a God we have made up. The God we serve then is just as much a false God and a idol as if we made a wooden idol and prayed to it. God is the creator. It is not our job to remake God in our image or even in an image we find more pleasant.
The Bible says we have one life to live and after that the judgment. The Bible says NOTHING about people living new lives till they get it right.
The Bible is not a politically correct book. God did not write the Bible to please us but to teach us the way to Him and that is through His son-Jesus.
From my point of view you have gotten into some dangerous teaching. I suggest strongly that you leave that group and get into a good Church with good Biblical teaching.
1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
[Select for Copy; Double click to (de-)select all] 1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
[Select for Copy; Double click to (de-)select all] 1Cr 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
[Select for Copy; Double click to (de-)select all] 1Cr 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
[Select for Copy; Double click to (de-)select all] 1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
[Select for Copy; Double click to (de-)select all] 1Cr 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God
When it is down to the grit, it doesn't matter what we believe if it is not Biblical, it will not help us when we face God.
I sincerely urge you to find a good Bible Preaching Church and stay away from the group that is teaching you. There are some good Baptist Churches around and Calvary Churches are good Bible Preaching Churches.
Stop trying to make God fit your ideals and start learning who God really is.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Carol Swenson
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posted
Hmmmmmm!
Just take a peek at the link I provided. Tell me what you think.
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Carol Swenson
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I know, I know. But it looks like some people are starting a cult using that name.
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Good morning jj,
Jesus Christ (Joshua Ben Josheph)??????
Would you please explain the Joshua Ben Joseph part? I understand the Son of Man, Son of God part, but not the Joshua Ben Joseph. Are you saying that Joshua Ben Joseph is Jesus? If so, where is this person right now?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Wierd stuff I think...proceed with caution
http://www.geocities.com/theworldsreligions/nameofjesus
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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oneinchrist
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posted
Good morning jj,
Jesus Christ (Joshua Ben Josheph)??????
Would you please explain the Joshua Ben Joseph part? I understand the Son of Man, Son of God part, but not the Joshua Ben Joseph. Are you saying that Joshua Ben Joseph is Jesus? If so, where is this person right now?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Carol Swenson
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Doesn't work that way. If you've been studying the scriptures for 30 years as you say, then you know this.
There is no second chance after death. There is no resurrection body until Christ returns for His own. The unsaved are not resurrected until the end of the Millennial Kingdom, when they will be judged and suffer the second death.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by jumpinjack:
I merely meant to point out that mortal death is, in and of itself, not necessary at all, while the posession of a "resurrection" body is necessary for eternal life - which must be chosen to be recieved. nothing more, nothing less.
Okay then ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ![[wiggle7]](graemlins/wiggle7.gif) ![[hyper]](graemlins/hyper.gif) ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif) Jesus Christ is Eternal Life. He doesn't just give it, He IS it.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by jumpinjack:
I will, however, concede that I may not fully understand the concept of "purgatory".
Purgatory is the state of those who die in God’s friendship, assured of their eternal salvation, but who still have need of purification to enter into the happiness of heaven.
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Carol Swenson
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Our focus is on loving God and loving other people as ourselves.
Trying to figure out how to be translated like Enoch was is, (please forgive me for saying this), a self-centered interest.
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Enoch did it. Elijah did it.
No they didn't. God did it. It was HIS choice.
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Carol Swenson
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Biblical Christianity does not teach purgatory - on other planets or anywhere else.
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Betty Louise
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posted
mentally challenged people who are so ill that they cannot understand salvation will be saved and go to Heaven. NO ONE will be given a change to live again. You die saved or unsaved.
Good night
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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Betty Louise
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Jack,
I am going to bed. Your problem is not with me. You have a problem with what God says. I suggest you spend some time studying the Bible and in prayer.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Betty Louise
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posted
I believe every person has the option of receiving the Gospel. Let me tell you a true story.
Many years ago, my Pastor who is 81 years old went to Africa and he spoke to a group of people way out in the jungle who had never heard a missionary or read a Bible.
He told them about Jesus and the people said that they had been worshiping Jesus but they did not know His Name. How? Because God had made Himself known to them.
You can argue all you want but if you study the Bible, God Himself, makes it clear. You live once and afterwards the judgment.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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Betty Louise
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posted
I do believe that there are mentally challenged people who will go to Heaven just like children they will be judged innocent. But the Bible makes it clear that the rest of us have one life to live and then the judgment. If we accept Christ as our Savior we go to Heaven, if we don't we go to hell.
This is why we pray for the lost and share the Gospel with others. We support missionaries to spread the Gospel around the world.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Betty Louise
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Romans 1:20 (NIV)
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
Ecclesiastes 3:11 (NIV)
11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.
Romans 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles
Deuteronomy 4:29 (NIV)
29 But if from there you seek the Lord your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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Betty Louise
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Betty...
question. If the "second death is eternity in hell for unbelievers", don't they have to be resurrected from the first death to be put there. Isn't mortal death the first death from which they are resurrected. So then...if they who die are resurrected and choose to believe at that time, will they not be shown mercy. Will they be resurrected minus the free will to choose, or is Gods mercy exhuasted the day we die the first time. please explain.
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Unbelievers will be resurrected to stand before the White Throne Judgment. They will then be sentenced to eternity in hell. Once you die in your physical body you are not given a second chance to get saved. That is what the Bible means when is says one life and then the judgment.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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Betty Louise
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posted
Jack,
The second death is eternity in hell for the unbelievers.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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