Christian Message Boards: Sinless Perfection

This is topic Sinless Perfection in forum Bible Topics & Study at Christian Message Boards.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=006615

Posted by KnowHim (Member # 1) on :

Click below:
http://churchwebs.tv/video/148/sinless-perfection

Can a believer be sinlessly perfect?

.

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

Hi Know Him,
It seems that there is much controversy on 1 John 3:9...... Whoever has been born of God does not commit sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

My bible footnotes for 1 John 3:6-9 state as follows:

John does not teach perfectionism; otherwise he would contradict himself (see 1:8,9). Although interpretations of this text vary, it seems Johns argument is grammatically based. By using the Greek present tense he does not declare that Christians are unable to commit an occasional act of sin (see 1:8-10; 2:1), but that they are not characterized by the spirit of lawlessness (v.4), powerlessly led into a habitual practice of sin. Sin is natural to the children of the devil, who has sinned from the beginning, but unnatural to the children of God, who cannot sin without the Spirit's conviction. A constant indulgence of sin contradicts the claim to have a personal knowledge of Christ. END

Its interesting to note that some bibles say.........Whoever has been born of God does not sin and some other bibles say Whoever has been born of God does not "commit" sin. Personally, I believe that the newer versions should have followed suit with the King James. It does appear that the ommission of the word "commit" could put a different slant on the overall expressed meaning that John is trying to convey.

with love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by jumpinjack:
Who are these "children of the devil" to whom we refer? Seems that Christ Himself always taught that we are ALL sons of ONE heavenly Father. True enough that many sons have been led astray, but are they still not His children. The devil has no children - he merely wants us to believe we (or - our brothers) are his. Christ taught a pretty simple religion. ONE FATHER, MANY SONS - Love one another as I Have loved you. As we try to practice our religion about Christ, we forget all about the religion OF Christ. I'm not arguing against "all we, like aheep have gone astray". . . I'm merely questioning the entire idea of the devil having "children". When Jesus spoke of the "children" of the devil, He made reference to those who refused to acknowledge thier true Heavenly Father, those who BELEIVED they were NOT the children of GOD. Those whe did NOT believe themselves to be the CHILDREN of GOD. He was... in these passages . . . speaking to a group of people who taught that ONLY the Jewish people, and only those who properly followed the then current religios tabbos of THIER INTERPRETATIONS were the children of GOD! These were the people he said were "of your father, the devil".

Those who deny Christ stand already condemned.

The very words of Christ Jesus:

John 3:
18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

It is ONLY through Christ and through the spirit of adoption that we become the sons of God and can cry Abba.

Romans 8:
11: But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12: Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15: For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Those who deny Christ, who's names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life, will stand before the Throne of Judgment and will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

ONLY those who come to Christ are redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb.

Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :

http://www.gotquestions.org/all-God-children.html

Question: "Are we all God's children, or only Christians?"

Answer: The Bible is clear that all people are God’s creation (Colossians 1:16), and that God loves the entire world (John 3:16), but only those who are born again are children of God (John 1:12; 11:52; Romans 8:16; 1 John 3:1-10).

In Scripture, the lost are never referred to as children of God. Ephesians 2:3 tells us that before we were saved we were “by nature objects of wrath.” Romans 9:8 says that “it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.” Instead of being born as God’s children, we are born in sin, which separates us from God and aligns us with Satan as God’s enemy (James 4:4; 1 John 3:8). Jesus said, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me” (John 8:42). Then a few verses later in John 8:44, Jesus told the Pharisees that they “belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire.” The fact that those who are not saved are not children of God is also seen in 1 John 3:10: “This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.”

We become children of God when we are saved because we are adopted into God’s family through our relationship with Jesus Christ (Galatians 4:5-6; Ephesians 1:5). This can be clearly seen in verses like Romans 8:14-17: “…because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, ‘Abba, Father.’ The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.” Those who are saved are children “of God through faith in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:26) because God has “predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will” (Ephesians 1:5).

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

Amen Betty!!!!

I would really look carefully at what Jesus really says, Jack.

He is going to judge and there are so many who are facing condemnation and destruction:

Matt. 7:

13: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15: Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16: Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17: Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18: A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19: Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I would not want to hear those words directly from Jesus,"I never knew you!!".

There is NOTHING arbitrary about Jesus. It is either or, Jack, and ONLY those who receive Christ and are born again are the children of the Living God, through the spirit of adoption.

Those NOT found written in the Lamb's Book of Life are going to Hell, Jack, and will be resurrected and cast into the Lake of Fire.

Those who teach a Universalism are deceived and deceivers, and are contrary to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :

Drew,

You are right. Universalism is a lie from the pit of hell. It doesn't matter who says different it is lie and is leading thousand and thousands to hell.

Jhn 10:1
"MOST assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Jhn 10:2
"But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
Jhn 10:3
"To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
Jhn 10:4
"And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.
Jhn 10:5
"Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers."
Jhn 10:6
Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them.
Jhn 10:7
Then Jesus said to them again, "Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
Jhn 10:8
"All who ever came before Me[fn1] are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
Jhn 10:9
"I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
Jhn 10:10
"The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
Jhn 10:11
"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
Jhn 10:12
"But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them.
Jhn 10:13
"The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep.
Jhn 10:14
"I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.
Jhn 10:15
"As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
Jhn 10:16
"And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
Jhn 10:17
"Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
Jhn 10:18
"No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."

Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :

Christ own words, He talked about hell more then he did heaven. Hell is a place and non believers will go there.

Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Luk 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

betty

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by jumpinjack:
Sounds like I can't believe in Christ unless I agree with you to me. interesting. And I thought I've believed in Christ since I first Heard His name (I was around 5 or 6 - I think). Apparently. . . Christs owm words, His teachings, aren't nearly as reliable as those written, retranslated and reinterpreted by the preists, rabbis, preachers and teachers in the pulpit. Sounds a little like the scribes, pharisees and saducees He refered to to me. I'm not sure you can convince me that I'm condemned for believing we are all sons of GOD. I'm not sure you can convince me I'm condemned for sying so. I'm even less sure you can convince me any of us are really qualified to say who will - or will not - be condemned, period. In Christ's time the jewish people wanted a saviour who would condemn all others and save His "chosen". Then...the religious leaders had him killed for teaching ALL men were children of God - and for throwing the money out of thier temple. Now, two thousand years later, the first thing we do in church is pass the plate, while we continue to teach that anyone who believes we are all gods children can't be a Christian. Doesn't seem like things have changed much to me.

No Jack. Whether you believe in Christ or not is between you and God.

Believers will produce fruit of the Spirit which is evidence of their belief.

Your fruit is far more that of an adversary, opposed to the basic tenants of the Christian faith.

The Word of God stands Jack, and when you are in direct opposition to the teachings of Christ then you become an adversary.

The words of Jesus:

Matt. 7:
6: Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Matt 25:
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Rev.3:
13: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
14: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16: So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by jumpinjack:
What just exactly did Jesus teach - do YOU think? Who taught you what to believe about what He taught? Which preacher interpreted it to you? What did He teach His apostles when asked How to become apostles? I wasn't there. I have to depend on the Spirit of Truth which he sent as a "comforter" following His departure to lead me into all "knowledge of Him" so I would "need not that any man should instruct me". I have to depend on the Holy Spirit and on the Father's spirit within me as a guide. You'll just have to excuse me for not believing whatever you tell me to

It is the Word of God which is the yardstick by which truth and error are measured.

2 Tim. 3:

13: But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14: But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15: And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :

Jack,

We do not need a Preacher to interpret the truth.
Jesus said there is a hell and people will go there.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

It doesn't matter what you want to believe.
The Bible speaks for itself.

Hell is not popular today, but truth is truth.
If you are teaching Universalism Salvation, you are teaching a false teaching and that is against the rules of this board.
betty

Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :

There is a danger when a Christian preaches or teaches a false Gospel. Universal salvation is a false Gospel.
betty

Posted by Keeper (Member # 7675) on :

JumpinJack...Don't get your shorts in a wad now.
This is a discussion board and sometimes we offer information that seemed important to us personally, but it may not seem important to you.

Jesus provided the knowledge that has ended up typeset into the bible the best we know how. It is not an easy read. Each of us are different in many ways. On this post you are talking with members who are loving Christians and certainly care for you.

Whatever you determine the bible says, you are responsible for. If you choose to ask for some other opinions or are searching for additional information, this is a good place to get it. Your final word on any subject is what you take to the throne with you. No one else is responsible.

If you are convinced you are destined for heaven and are a Christian, then so be it. If someone chooses to put doubt in your heart or mind, don't buy it until they can prove you wrong and you agree. I am not sure that anyone so far is trying to put doubt in your mind. It appears to me that they are simply offering added scripture for your GTO (Going To Heaven) portfolio.

As for listening to others about the meaning of scripture I enjoy research and discussion and learning which is an endless enjoyment.

We Thank God for the Holy Spirit.

Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :

No one has said you are not a Christian. No one has attacked you. We have warned you that universal salvation is wrong and that we are all not children of God, but no one is questioning your faith in God.
betty

Posted by Keeper (Member # 7675) on :

I don't know diddley about Universalism and try to avoid talking about any church or individual until such time that I am certain that I know what I am talking about.

I do know about the Unity Church. That so called church is about as far from Christianity as north is from south.

Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :

Universalism is a popular belief that everyone goes to Heaven. Oprah has taught this on her show.
betty

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Three were crucified.

One was dying for sin (the Savior).

One was dying from sin (the repentant thief).

One was dying in sin (the lost thief).

All classes of humanity were represented at the cross. There were the indifferent (“the people stood beholding,” Lk. 23:35); the religious (“the rulers derided him,” Lk. 23:35); the materialistic (“the soldiers parted his raiment and cast lots,” Lk. 23:34); and the earnest seeker (“Lord, remember me…” Lk. 23:42). The cross is indeed the judgment of this world. See John 12:31.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

quote:
As long as they are still breathing they are susceptible to the Mighty Power of the Word of Truth, and reachable by the gospel of Christ

AMEN!

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

Hi Jumpinjack,
Ok, I see you have confessed that you are a believer in Jesus......indubitably(unquestionably). It is true that none of us have the right to judge you as a liar. It is not surprising to me though, that based on some of your language, that some have interpreted you to hold to a "universalist" position.

In reference to your viewpoint on the biblical words "children of the devil"...........

Is it that you just disagree with the whole concept of there being "children of the devil?"

Do you believe that we(everyone in the world) are all children of God in the sense that God possesses all things, or do you believe that we are all children of God in the sense that we(everyone in the world) are all going to heaven?

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

quote:
We'll no doubt spend some time on the mansion worlds enroute to Heaven proper ourselves.

What does this mean? It's new to me.

Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :

Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

There is only one chance to get to Heaven, once you die your chance for salvation is over. No one will be kicked out of heaven.

1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

We will not sin in Heaven, nor will anyone want to leave Heaven.
betty

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

Hi again jumpinjack,
Who is Jesus to you?
and
Do you believe in Hell?

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by Keeper (Member # 7675) on :

Learning to state your case so it will be well understood helps out on this board. Otherwise this board is like a water board.

You need to think ahead here, because if there is an opening for a correction, someone will surely have their correction hat on on that day.

Be patient, we have been going through a lot of turmoil here lately. Anything you had to say would be attacked by the local fowler and you would be left laying at the side of the road bleeding and suffering. All but he was lost and didn't get it, in HIM. It hasn't been pretty.
Perhaps you have met this self appointed giant of Christianity.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

[36] And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
[37] They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
[38] (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

[1] Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by jumpinjack:
Carol...
Christ's universe is composed of a great many more than just one inhabited planet. Hence...His statement "I have sheep not of this fold". The planets are grouped into thousands, hundreds of thousands, and hundreds of hundreds of thousands. Each group is administered seperately at each level. The "mansion worlds" are found at each level. Educational spheres, created, and maintained seperate from the mortal spheres (like ours). Before we are passed to the next "level" final decision will have been made regarding eternal survival -Faith in Christ - no matter which of the thousand planets we come from. Next we go to the next level - where there are a hundred groups of a thousand planets. More "mansion worlds". Then on to a hundred groups of a hundred thousand planets. All this LONG before we reach the Father's Heaven.

puppet talk.

Posted by Keeper (Member # 7675) on :

Well Jumping Jack...you have pretty well stated your case now. I can assure you that we do not agree with what you say.

Where did you find these planets ?

Do you know how your presently described beliefs differ from Christianity? Do you care ?

Posted by Keeper (Member # 7675) on :

I was being sarcastic when I said Christian Giant.

Posted by Keeper (Member # 7675) on :

WildB...what are we gonna do with you?

The part of the body is spelled Colon not Kolen.

Stop your silliness, not sillyness. LOL

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

Helpful Links - In Him Ministries!

... an evanglical Christian ministry. freeminds. Watchers of the WatchTower! Jehovah's Witnesses FAQ ... The Privileged Planet - Intelligent Design. ^ Back to Subject List^ ... Classic Gospel Listen · K-Love (Great Christian music. ...

Posted by Keeper (Member # 7675) on :

Jumping Jack, I didn't say you weren't a Christian. You didn't prove you weren't to me anyway. What I said was that we (taking the freedom to speak for the others (?)), don't agree with what you said in that post.

Not going to get into this tonight. Been building fence all day and am tired.

I will tell you this though, if you want any peace here forget the planets (plural) thang for starters.

Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :

Jack,

The second death is eternity in hell for the unbelievers.
betty

Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :

Betty...
question. If the "second death is eternity in hell for unbelievers", don't they have to be resurrected from the first death to be put there. Isn't mortal death the first death from which they are resurrected. So then...if they who die are resurrected and choose to believe at that time, will they not be shown mercy. Will they be resurrected minus the free will to choose, or is Gods mercy exhuasted the day we die the first time. please explain.
--------------

Unbelievers will be resurrected to stand before the White Throne Judgment. They will then be sentenced to eternity in hell. Once you die in your physical body you are not given a second chance to get saved. That is what the Bible means when is says one life and then the judgment.
betty

Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :

Romans 1:20 (NIV)

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Ecclesiastes 3:11 (NIV)

11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.

Romans 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles

Deuteronomy 4:29 (NIV)

29 But if from there you seek the Lord your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :

I do believe that there are mentally challenged people who will go to Heaven just like children they will be judged innocent. But the Bible makes it clear that the rest of us have one life to live and then the judgment. If we accept Christ as our Savior we go to Heaven, if we don't we go to hell.
This is why we pray for the lost and share the Gospel with others. We support missionaries to spread the Gospel around the world.
betty

Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :

I believe every person has the option of receiving the Gospel. Let me tell you a true story.
Many years ago, my Pastor who is 81 years old went to Africa and he spoke to a group of people way out in the jungle who had never heard a missionary or read a Bible.
He told them about Jesus and the people said that they had been worshiping Jesus but they did not know His Name. How? Because God had made Himself known to them.

You can argue all you want but if you study the Bible, God Himself, makes it clear. You live once and afterwards the judgment.
betty

Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :

Jack,

I am going to bed. Your problem is not with me. You have a problem with what God says. I suggest you spend some time studying the Bible and in prayer.
betty

Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :

mentally challenged people who are so ill that they cannot understand salvation will be saved and go to Heaven. NO ONE will be given a change to live again. You die saved or unsaved.
Good night
betty

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Biblical Christianity does not teach purgatory - on other planets or anywhere else.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

quote:
Enoch did it. Elijah did it.

No they didn't. God did it. It was HIS choice.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Our focus is on loving God and loving other people as ourselves.

Trying to figure out how to be translated like Enoch was is, (please forgive me for saying this), a self-centered interest.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

quote:
Originally posted by jumpinjack:
I will, however, concede that I may not fully understand the concept of "purgatory".

Purgatory is the state of those who die in God’s friendship, assured of their eternal salvation, but who still have need of purification to enter into the happiness of heaven.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

quote:
Originally posted by jumpinjack:
I merely meant to point out that mortal death is, in and of itself, not necessary at all, while the posession of a "resurrection" body is necessary for eternal life - which must be chosen to be recieved. nothing more, nothing less.

Okay then

Jesus Christ is Eternal Life. He doesn't just give it, He IS it.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Doesn't work that way. If you've been studying the scriptures for 30 years as you say, then you know this.

There is no second chance after death. There is no resurrection body until Christ returns for His own. The unsaved are not resurrected until the end of the Millennial Kingdom, when they will be judged and suffer the second death.

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

Good morning jj,
Jesus Christ (Joshua Ben Josheph)??????

Would you please explain the Joshua Ben Joseph part? I understand the Son of Man, Son of God part, but not the Joshua Ben Joseph. Are you saying that Joshua Ben Joseph is Jesus? If so, where is this person right now?

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Good morning jj,
Jesus Christ (Joshua Ben Josheph)??????

Would you please explain the Joshua Ben Joseph part? I understand the Son of Man, Son of God part, but not the Joshua Ben Joseph. Are you saying that Joshua Ben Joseph is Jesus? If so, where is this person right now?

With love in Christ, Daniel

Wierd stuff I think...proceed with caution

http://www.geocities.com/theworldsreligions/nameofjesus

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

I know, I know. But it looks like some people are starting a cult using that name.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Hmmmmmm!

Just take a peek at the link I provided. Tell me what you think.

Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :

Jack,

You seem and I am not in no means judging you, but your postings show a person who is not comfortable with some of the aspects of God and what He says He will do and not do. So it seems you are adding to the Bible and taken away from the Bible in order to make a Gospel that is more pleasing to you.

Let me explain. You don't like the thought of a God that sends people to hell, so you invent your theory that mankind will be given a second chance in the after life. This is a lie. Is it sad to see that some of the nicest people are sinners and are destined for hell? Of course it is!! The problem is when we began redefining God we are no longer serving the God of the Bible, but a God we have made up. The God we serve then is just as much a false God and a idol as if we made a wooden idol and prayed to it. God is the creator. It is not our job to remake God in our image or even in an image we find more pleasant.

The Bible says we have one life to live and after that the judgment. The Bible says NOTHING about people living new lives till they get it right.

The Bible is not a politically correct book. God did not write the Bible to please us but to teach us the way to Him and that is through His son-Jesus.

From my point of view you have gotten into some dangerous teaching. I suggest strongly that you leave that group and get into a good Church with good Biblical teaching.

1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
[Select for Copy; Double click to (de-)select all] 1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
[Select for Copy; Double click to (de-)select all] 1Cr 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
[Select for Copy; Double click to (de-)select all] 1Cr 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
[Select for Copy; Double click to (de-)select all] 1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
[Select for Copy; Double click to (de-)select all] 1Cr 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God

When it is down to the grit, it doesn't matter what we believe if it is not Biblical, it will not help us when we face God.

I sincerely urge you to find a good Bible Preaching Church and stay away from the group that is teaching you. There are some good Baptist Churches around and Calvary Churches are good Bible Preaching Churches.
Stop trying to make God fit your ideals and start learning who God really is.
betty

Posted by KnowHim (Member # 1) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:

quote:
Originally posted by jumpinjack:
Sounds like I can't believe in Christ unless I agree with you to me.
No Jack. Whether you believe in Christ or not is between you and God.

Believers will produce fruit of the Spirit which is evidence of their belief.

Your fruit is far more that of an adversary, opposed to the basic tenants of the Christian faith.

The Word of God stands Jack, and when you are in direct opposition to the teachings of Christ then you become an adversary.

This is very true. The word of God is truth. If one thinks they hear from God but what they say they hear is contrary to the word of God they are not hearing from God.

.

Posted by KnowHim (Member # 1) on :

quote:
Originally posted by jumpinjack:
Carol...
Christ's universe is composed of a great many more than just one inhabited planet. Hence...His statement "I have sheep not of this fold". The planets are grouped into thousands, hundreds of thousands, and hundreds of hundreds of thousands. Each group is administered seperately at each level. The "mansion worlds" are found at each level. Educational spheres, created, and maintained seperate from the mortal spheres (like ours). Before we are passed to the next "level" final decision will have been made regarding eternal survival -Faith in Christ - no matter which of the thousand planets we come from. Next we go to the next level - where there are a hundred groups of a thousand planets. More "mansion worlds". Then on to a hundred groups of a hundred thousand planets. All this LONG before we reach the Father's Heaven.

DON'T start teaching this on this message board as it is NOT in the bible the word of God.

.

Posted by KnowHim (Member # 1) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Keeper:
Learning to state your case so it will be well understood helps out on this board. Otherwise this board is like a water board.

You need to think ahead here, because if there is an opening for a correction, someone will surely have their correction hat on on that day.

Be patient, we have been going through a lot of turmoil here lately. Anything you had to say would be attacked by the local fowler and you would be left laying at the side of the road bleeding and suffering. All but he was lost and didn't get it, in HIM. It hasn't been pretty.
Perhaps you have met this self appointed giant of Christianity.

One more time telling lies and you will be banned. I have not done anything like you are saying. That is enough.

.

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

Hi again jj,
Thank you for the clarification on your post. Its not the first time I have ever witnessed other names being used for the same Jesus that we all know and love. I just have two questions to ask you now?

1.Where do you get the information about the "planets and mansion worlds"(plural)that you have brought up in your posts?

and

2.Do you believe that Jesus Christ is Lord?

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on :

KnowHim,
I don't think that Keeper was referring to you in his comment and reference to the "local fowler". I think that he was talking about MH.

Posted by Keeper (Member # 7675) on :

Thank You TB125.

KnowHim....The post that you are saying I wrote to you was obviously written to Jumping Jack and I was obviously talking about Harrison.

Jumping Jack's post followed by mine are both dated May 29 and the time is 10:04 PM.

I cannot imagine how you would think that what I said had anything to do with you. Even you were drawn into all the controversies and probably why you are here now. (?) I had hoped that I had straightened out our last misunderstanding and now this one?

Like I said before Know Him, if you want to get rid of me, you don't need to bother with warnings just tell me and I will git.

Posted by Keeper (Member # 7675) on :

JumpingJack...Boinggg!

I am going to comment on some things you have said. I think I understand a lot of your expressive descriptions. (?)

I am going to touch on this again but let's think of it this way...No second chances for salvation after the first death.

Yes, we will all be resurrected and will face the throne and judgement. Those who did not accept Jesus as savior will die a second death.

Look here my little spring loaded boxed up friend, I have seen enough to suggest, like some others have done, that you might stop boinking in your present church. I think that Jesus would suggest the same thing. Go to the Holy Spirit and ask Him...then wait for an answer.

If you have a problem with death and what you call a torture sleep, take it up with the Holy Spirit. The rules are written, and He can help you to understand if you ask him to do so. I feel that you are confused a little about some issues here.

Those who refused Jesus, however they did it, are destined for Hell, just like their god, Satan.

You made a good list of those who will most likely end up in the millennium given a chance to hear the gospel and accept Jesus along with the Jews and others. In other words, those who never accepted Jesus as savior due to no fault of their own, will be given the opportunity and will also be tested. That post was 5/29, 11:27pm

It is only fair that those who die the second time do so by choice, and in fairness to the believers.

Christ did pay for our sins. We can accept that fact by believing in Him, asking forgiveness of those sins He bought with His blood and ask to be made a child of God. If you don't believe in Him, you are toast.

It is wrong, I can comfortably say, that there are many mansions on other planets. A faulty imagination would only suggest such a thing.
Jesus said that He was preparing those mansions in heaven. They eventually will end up here on this planet round about Israel. I suggest you leave the planets up to NASA.

No one will live in this flesh and blood body forever. Leave Enoch and Elijah and Moses, etc out of this conversation. Paul said we are all going to die. (stop putting question marks all over this) Remember the seed illustration? I think you need to do some work on the death and resurrection subject. Everyone will stand judgement, good and bad.

Forget purgatory, it won't happen.

Mortal means likely to die. It is necessary if you are to receive an immortal body like you said. Mortal bodies die. Leave it at that.
Everyone wants to note all the details and word punctuation, etc. It wasn't told, so stop trying to add what isn't.

Resurrection bodies are not provided for having the ability to get a second chance or seeing a place like heaven and deciding that it is alright after all. I agree with you about Hell.
If I ain't goin I am not concerned about it unless of course for the lost. If you are a Christian you need not worry about hell either or second chances other than the fact that God gives us all our due and is fair.

Try to keep things simple and stop confusing the issues. Why call Jesus Ben Joseph or whatever?
Everyone knows who Jesus is so us it. You know what happened when you tickled us with Ben Joseph.

I also suggested that you make yourself as clear as you can if you want clear responses. You will find however, that your posts will not always be read properly also. Every word can be very clear and still be read wrong. Gotta learn to live with it. Not everyone is perfect like me. LOL

Posted by Keeper (Member # 7675) on :

Are you serious, Who is Moses? What about him?`

Well, he wrote the first 5 books of the bible in the OT. Israels great hero who delivered God's people out of Egypt, gave them God's law, and led them to the borders of the promised land. He died about 1400 BC.

The reason I mentioned him was that he was taken up also.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
OninChrist... "in my Fathers house are many mansions". Undecided children won't make it past the SONS mansions. They'll never even approach the Fathers mansions of Havona itaself! I don't know who will or won't be found on the system mansions. Final decision WILL be made on the mansion worlds IF not during mortal life on our native planet. The Creator Himself Bestowed Himself as a mortal on our planet almost 2000 years ago. I'm sure if there is ANY doubt as to whether ANY of HIS children can be saved, they'll be resurrected on the SONS mansions - where there's no confusion - and they'll be required to make final decision as to thier eternal survival. I'm not prepared to say that the mortal life is the last chance for all to decide. Nonetheless, If the issues ARE clear - and the child DOES in full knowledge reject the truth - free from ANY confusion during the course of mortal lifetime in the flesh, there's no second chances, either. Some undoubtedly won't even make it to the "second desth" - most unbelievers probably will though, as mixed up as humanity has become on this particular planet! Obviously...those who have chosen life before departing will also be resurrected, thier decidion reaffirmed - and they won't see the "second death" either. All this is LONG before we EVER get close to Heaven Proper. Don't really think that sounds much like universal salvation - could be wrong.

jumpinjack, I am accused of speaking 'funny' words. If I may, yours are curious also. Note the emboldened statements at the top.

I have to note that no man is is a child of God until he believes. The rest are excluded. Therefore I don't follow you about the 'sons' mansions. Are you dividing heaven up into categories wherein there are 'groups' of mansions that house different levels of 'faiths' or believing people? After all, seeing it as a 'system' is a bit distant.

While I am here:

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

We who have believed, have received a 'quickening' Spirit. That means HE hath made us alive together with Him. Therefore it takes two: Him, and us, 'quickened' together, to be a whole man.

Now:

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Being 'quckened' together with Him, we are 'in' the ARK. However our bodies are flesh and blood. Therefore they will not go to heaven without being changed. Hence the verses above. For flesh and blood do not 'inherit' the Kingdom (though according to scripture, they are 'quickened', meaning temporarily sanctified). But since it will not inherit heaven, at the last trump we will received a glorified body, which you will notice, will consist of flesh and bone. Jesus is the life blood.

Posted by KnowHim (Member # 1) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Keeper:
Thank You TB125.

KnowHim....The post that you are saying I wrote to you was obviously written to Jumping Jack and I was obviously talking about Harrison.

Jumping Jack's post followed by mine are both dated May 29 and the time is 10:04 PM.

I cannot imagine how you would think that what I said had anything to do with you. Even you were drawn into all the controversies and probably why you are here now. (?) I had hoped that I had straightened out our last misunderstanding and now this one?

Like I said before Know Him, if you want to get rid of me, you don't need to bother with warnings just tell me and I will git.

keeper,

For some reason I read fowler as founder. I don't know why but that is what I thought it said. I do apologizes and not I am not trying to get rid of you. I am glad this was pointed out to me.

God bless,
David

.

Posted by KnowHim (Member # 1) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TB125:
KnowHim,
I don't think that Keeper was referring to you in his comment and reference to the "local fowler". I think that he was talking about MH.

Thanks for pointing this out. For some reason I read fowler as founder. I don't know why but that is what I thought it said.

God bless,
David

.

Posted by KnowHim (Member # 1) on :

OK, back to the subject of this thread.

I did not make the video but thought it was very good. For those that can not view the video this is what it says about Sinless Perfection.

1 Thessalonians 4:3 (King James Version)
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, ...

There are two extreme views regarding salvation.
The belief that a person must be sinless to be saved and

1. Regarding being sinlessly perfect, it is simply not possible this side of heaven as our sinful nature remains part of us until we see Jesus. But when we do see Him, He "will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body."

Philippians 3:21 (King James Version)
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Regarding heaven, it is true that "nothing impure will ever enter it".

Revelation 21:27 (King James Version)
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

but that does not mean we must live a sinless life to get there. When a person is abiding in Christ he is considered pure as 1 John 3:7 tells us that "He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous".

1 John 3:7 (King James Version)
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Doing what is righteous is nothing more than living out 1 John 1:9 which says,

1 John 1:9 (King James Version)
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:1-2 tells us that if we do sin then we have Jesus to turn to for forgiveness. All God requires of us is that we confess and repent - that is what is meant by abiding in Christ, living by the Spirit, walking with Jesus etc.

There is more to the video but that is all I typed.

.

Posted by KnowHim (Member # 1) on :

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Know Him,
It seems that there is much controversy on 1 John 3:9...... Whoever has been born of God does not commit sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

My bible footnotes for 1 John 3:6-9 state as follows:

John does not teach perfectionism; otherwise he would contradict himself (see 1:8,9). Although interpretations of this text vary, it seems Johns argument is grammatically based. By using the Greek present tense he does not declare that Christians are unable to commit an occasional act of sin (see 1:8-10; 2:1), but that they are not characterized by the spirit of lawlessness (v.4), powerlessly led into a habitual practice of sin. Sin is natural to the children of the devil, who has sinned from the beginning, but unnatural to the children of God, who cannot sin without the Spirit's conviction. A constant indulgence of sin contradicts the claim to have a personal knowledge of Christ. END

Its interesting to note that some bibles say.........Whoever has been born of God does not sin and some other bibles say Whoever has been born of God does not "commit" sin. Personally, I believe that the newer versions should have followed suit with the King James. It does appear that the ommission of the word "commit" could put a different slant on the overall expressed meaning that John is trying to convey.

with love in Christ, Daniel

Did you even watch the video? It is not teaching perfectionism.

.

Posted by Keeper (Member # 7675) on :

Well, if you wish to get the full low down on perfection, I am your man, being perfect myself...LOL...Just joking !

During the NT period including now, Perfect (Greek-teleios) was a word used by Jesus and the NT writers. When applied to people, it simply means "fulfilled" or "mature" or "fully equipped for a task".

Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus;

Haven't you ever looked at someone or something and made the comment..."perfect"? That is more like the description than what some think it means. Jesus was perfect. We might be called wannabe's but not just yet. It comes with our new spiritual bodies.

For those who study for exceptions, yes, there are some.

1 Cor 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
So, like I said, when Jesus comes, the prophecies and expectations and hopes will be fulfilled and be done away with.

1 John 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear; because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
So, stop your frettin and fill your heart with Love for the master and that will get you even closer to Him, which is about as perfect as can be expected.

If you are concerned about OT Law, it made nothing perfect. The sacrifices could not complete the salvation. Only Jesus could complete such.

So, when Paul says in 2 Cor 13:9-11 that his prayers are for his readers to "aim for perfection" the focus is aimed at Christian maturity and hope. Hope opens the door to a better future with Jesus Christ and more able to grow to be like Him in the future.

Now, if you feel that you have accomplished all that, then go ahead and call yourself perfect. No one will believe you though. hehe

Posted by KnowHim (Member # 1) on :

>>>> Now, if you feel that you have accomplished all that, then go ahead and call yourself perfect. No one will believe you though. hehe

No one will believe you though

Very true, I have not come across a perfect person yet..... hehehehehe [roll on floor]

But everyone knows I am perfect, -->> "For some reason I read fowler as founder."...... RIGHT!

If I have to be perfect I am in big trouble, but I know who is perfect and there I place my faith. Jesus Christ

2 Timothy 1:12 (King James Version)
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

.

Posted by Keeper (Member # 7675) on :

May I suggest that you not beat yourself up for a misread ?

Trust me; it happens on this board all the time.

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Hi, Keeper, you wrote the following:

quote:
Are you serious, Who is Moses? What about him?`

Well, he wrote the first 5 books of the bible in the OT. Israels great hero who delivered God's people out of Egypt, gave them God's law, and led them to the borders of the promised land. He died about 1400 BC.

The reason I mentioned him was that he was taken up also.

I assume that you base the idea that Moses was also taken up on this scripture alone?

Jude 1:9
But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

But on the other hand the Bible says that Moses DIED:

Hebrews 10:28 (NIV)
Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

Sorry, LOL, I added that scripture as a joke.

But here is the other one in which Moses DIED and was BURIED and "to this day no one knows where the grave of Moses is":

Deuteronomy 34
5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.

6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man know of his sepulchre unto this day.

Personally, I find the more ancient Old Testament Deuteronomy 34:5-6 verses MUCH MORE COMPELLING EVIDENCE than what Jude stated 1,450 years later in the New Testament.

So let's see again what Jude said:

Jude 1:9
But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!

Since Moses DIED and was BURIED, I think we need to come up with another interpretation of Jude 1:9 than that it is evidence that "Moses was also caught up", like Enoch and Elijah. But WHAT that interpretation exactly would be, I don't claim to know right now...

love, Eden

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

Good Morning David,
Yes, I did watch the video. I should have said in my response that I was in agreement with the content of the video so that there would have not been any confusion on that end. I was only trying to help build upon your case(with the bible footnotes that I provided), not fight against it. If I disagree with something I usually state flat out what I disagree with and why. Once again, sorry about the confusion.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

One might want to note that it was Moses and Elijah who appeared with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration:

Matt. 17:

1: And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2: And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3: And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Moses and Elijah could also be the Two Witnesses of Revelation.

Posted by KnowHim (Member # 1) on :

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Good Morning David,
Yes, I did watch the video. I should have said in my response that I was in agreement with the content of the video so that there would have not been any confusion on that end. I was only trying to help build upon your case(with the bible footnotes that I provided), not fight against it. If I disagree with something I usually state flat out what I disagree with and why. Once again, sorry about the confusion.

With love in Christ, Daniel

OIC NP

Posted by Keeper (Member # 7675) on :

EDEN AND CARETAKER...Well it took a while for someone to respond to that assumption about Moses.

CARETAKER; Thanks for answering Edens question.

EDEN; I'm not sure what you call the way Moses arrived to be transfigured like in Matt 17:1-3. It could also be that he and Elijah will be the 2 witnesses, I don't know. We all like to put handles on everything and figure it all out so we can approve of God's way of doing things.

Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :

I was wondering, if it is appointed for man ONCE to die, how could Moses be one of the 2 witnesses since he already died once?

Enoch and Elijah on the other hand were both taken as scripture reveals.

Posted by Keeper (Member # 7675) on :

Actually, I am as sure that it will be Moses included as I am you or me.

If I didn't I should have said; It has been suggested that Moses will be one of the two witnesses.

This is just another question for a bible lawyer to answer. I read that here a while back. You can always find a "But what about......???" if you look. If you try to cover all the bases when reading the bible, you may go crazy. In this case when it says that the Christian is to only die once, does the word really need to add that there is an exception in the case of Moses, or the two witnesses, stuff like that? hehe

Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on :

Yahsway writes...I was wondering, if it is appointed for man ONCE to die, how could Moses be one of the 2 witnesses since he already died once?

Well, how about Lazarus then? He died twice didn't he?

I think God will be God.

Posted by Keeper (Member # 7675) on :

Subject of this Forum is: Sinless Perfection

Question asked in opening Post; Can a believer be sinlessly perfect?

Those sinful acts that trouble our conscience and cause so much unhappiness are expressions of a warped and distorted nature.

No matter how much we struggle to control our actions, there is nothing we can do about the nature from which they issue.

However, the picture that Scripture paints of sin and its consequences is actually a good word from God. It is good because it turns our eyes away from ourselves and our futile efforts to be good and challenges us to search for a remedy.
Of course, you know the remedy. We surrender our hope in ourselves and instead place our hope in God. As we continue to learn of sin we also learn of the motivation to look to Jesus and rely only on him for both forgiveness and renewal.

Furthermore, when you use the word "perfection" when speaking of biblical terms, think twice. It usually does not mean what we consider "perfection" to mean down at the coffee shop or in the sale barn. It simply means that (lets stick to the sin subject) you through the help of Jesus have all that can be expected of you considering. You have turned it over to him and acted on it as he would have. Stuff like that.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Those who teach sinless perfection make a number of major errors in interpretation. I will mention three of them.

They misinterpret a few key passages .

• For instance, (they) use Galatians 2:17 which states, "But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid." Verse 16 had just made a wonderful statement on justification by faith. This verse which immediately follows shows us that if we are found to be sinners while we seek to be justified by Christ, then Christ is not the source of our sin. It does not teach that a justified believer cannot commit any sin. This is preposterous. It is also contradicted by many passages in the Bible. It simply teaches that Christ is not the source of sin in the believer.

• Another verse you usually see in this teaching is 1 John 3:9, which states, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." I recognize that this is a challenging verse, but it is not impossible.

The verse has at least three possible interpretations: 1) sinless perfection; 2) that the one who is born of God does not habitually commit serious sin; 3) that the part of man that is born again [his spirit] does not commit sin.

I lean to the third interpretation, but I know that the first interpretation must be wrong. The first epistle of John was written one man at one time to a certain group of people. He is not going to teach two completely opposite doctrines to the same people at the same time. This would be confusion. Yet, John is clear in teaching that believers do commit sins. 1 John 1:8 states, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." More evidence can be found in 1 John 1:10 and 2:1. This passage cannot teach what some claim. Therefore, an alternative has to be found and there are viable alternatives.

They confuse the believer's position with his practice (this distinction is what some call standing and state).

• Position - the person who has trusted in Jesus Christ as personal Saviour and has been born again is placed, or positioned, in Christ. That is why so many New Testament verses speak of us being "in him." In Christ the Father sees us as sinlessly perfect. We are complete in Him (Colossians 2:10). In Christ, we are already seated in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6). That is, we are already positionally in heaven. What we have by being in Christ is the possession of every believer.

• Practice - this refers to the practical daily life and walk of the believer. We may have all things in Christ, but that does not mean that we apply all of these things to our daily lives. God sees me as perfect in Christ, but I may not live perfectly in practice. Our calling is to bring our practice into line with our position. We are to walk worthy of our calling (Ephesians 4:1) and to apprehend that for which we are also apprehended of Christ (Philippians 3:12).

• Note: if one reads only the passages dealing with our position and ignores those dealing with our practice, he can teach sinless perfection. But this entirely misses the point.
They weaken the Biblical meaning of sin, sometimes to the point of redefining what sin is.

Those who claim sinless perfection tend to minimize sin . Years ago, I heard a preacher talk about his personal experience. He worked with a man who claimed to be sinless. One day, this man was hammering a nail, struck his finger instead, and let out a curse word. When reminded that he was supposed to be sinless, he replied, "O no, that was just a mistake. It was not a real sin." Consider the following Biblical definitions of sin.

• Sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4)
• All unrighteousness is sin (1 John 5:17); that is, if it is not righteous, it is sin.
• Failing to do something you should have done is sin, because James 4:17 states, "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."
• Whatsoever is not done in faith is sin (Roman 14:23)
• The thought of foolishness is sin (Proverbs 24:9)
• A proud heart is sin (Proverbs 21:4)

This last one may be the most condemning of all. For, when one man says to another, I have no sin, he certainly reveals his proud heart. We should always seek to live the life of Christ in our own bodies. We should desire the victorious Christian life. But more than all, we should seek to know Him, the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings (Philippians 3:10).

Reagan, David

http://www.learnthebible.org/sinless-perfection.html

Posted by Keeper (Member # 7675) on :

Carol, Thank You, that is a most outstanding post.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Carol, these arguments 'against', are most common (and unfortunately, crude). If anyone wants to find an excuse it is so easy, more so than anything. They abound. By the way, it is not to me, nor to anyone else however, that these arguments need to be presented - but personally to Him. Let every dissenter who is so bold, tell his story directly to Him. After all, who am I? But it is easy to respond to me as though I am a phoney, or to tell others why one cannot, or does not measure up. But in all confidence, tell HIM if you are so sure. Before you do, take into account this scripture: "Be not deceived, for whatsoever a man seweth, that shall he also reap." I hope that sobers someone up. But I doubt it. It cannot be comprehended by anyone who thinks they have a part in accomplishing their salvation or sanctification. But He doesn’t share that work.

Love - me!

I so wanted to have a conversation with the late Dr. Mcgee. For he also encountered some 'claiming' to be sanctified. Based on this he composed an interesting radio sermon about coming across these who claimed this nature while in bible school (then in a few other situations). In fact, said he, he asked for another room so as to avoid such an one, and continued his schooling apart from this individual. [happyhappy]

But in judging those in whom he could not see the grace of God, he deprived himself.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Perhaps someone has not been around here long enough to have read it, but I have often said this: The word 'Mature' is a worldly term. It describes a worldly condition. People who 'rationalize' the scripture prefer this word to the King James rendition which uses the word 'perfect'. Remember that to 'rationalize' means to dilute it until one can get his or her understanding around it. That is different from being 'broken', wherein one's understanding is crashed so that the spiritual "new creation," that a person is, can grasp the REVELATION of the meaning. So rationalizers miss the point (and teach others to do so Matt 5:19).

And here is the premier verse to consider: Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

How does it read if one substitutes the word 'mature' for perfect? Be ye therefore mature, even as your Father in Heaven. Well, God is not worldly. As we said, the term 'mature' is a worldly description. But God is Spirit. And GOD, is PERFECT! So we cannot be mature as HE is mature. He is beyond mature. And Jesus speaks decisively.

And is it not a command, "Be ye perfect?" Yet, who stated it? And does HE not perform what HE commands? Scripture says, after all that HIS word will not return to Him void. Therefore to 'enter' into His rest, one has to allow HIS performance of the command HE gave. For one cannot himself perform it. But faith transfers it to Him to perform on one's behalf, as it is written: "Abraham 'believed' God and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Since the boards have been quiet for awhile, I hope KnowHim will forgive me if I bump up a few of the lively discussions we had in the past?

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

Its interesting to re-read and remember how things were years ago.
One can see ones own personal growth and that of the fellowship of the long time posters.

Of course I was the only one that knew what was happening lol.

[Wink]

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Of course you were! [Smile]

Where did everybody go?