|
Author
|
Topic: An Evaluation Of The New "Pre-Wrath" Rapture Theory
|
Ezekiel 13:20
unregistered
|
posted
One more thing,it is easier now to investigate the when,where,and who of the pre-trib rapture doctrine in this age of computers than it was years ago.
However you can't believe much of what you find on this thing.
Start with the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith. Where's the pre-trib rapture mentioned?
Pre-trib rapture of the Church was never taught in any Mainstream Prodestant Church before 1830!
John Nelson Darby was deflocked for teaching it!
IP: Logged | 
|
|
Ezekiel 13:20
unregistered
|
posted
The second "he" is the anti-christ.
Someone asked how old am I? I'm so pld that I don't fit the 21st century....LOL.
I was raised in Church,when I was a little child I remember an evangelist came there preaching the pre-trib rapture doctrine. The old ones had a fit. They said it wasn't true.
I myself had never heard anything but the Second Coming.
Anyway it created quite a stir among the Church,
In my teenage years I drifted away from God,Left the country way of life and started working constrution in big cities. I drank alot when I wasn't workong and God didn't matter.
30 some years later,I found myself in a bad situation. I repented for all those years of sin.
I went back to the same Church. After a few months I said something about looking forward to the Second Coming of Christ.
Of course all the old ones were gone by then. The ones I looked up to as a child.
I was told that I would be "raptured away" before the Second Coming.
I tried to believe it. I studied all the pre-trib rapture material. It did not fit. I went through a time of wondering if I was saved or not.
I began to search deeper and through prayer and careful study I was able to piece together when,where,and who started this doctrine.
I finally spoke up and took a stand against this "new" doctrine.
Needless to say I'm not welcome there anymore.
If anyone really cares about the TRUTH,they should investigate the ever popular pre-trib rapture doctrine. God's Holy Word,and Church history.
The Creeds and Confessions, 1689 The Baptist Confession of Faith. The Truth stands for itself.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
Betty ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
Why is the Tribulation Delayed? (2 Thessalonians 2:6-7)
Paul had just discussed the problem the Thessalonians were experiencing: being told that the Tribulation had already begun. He dealt with this issue by showing that there are two preconditions for the start of the Tribulation, and that these had not yet happened. There was to be a divinely appointed delay in the start of the Tribulation, and in this section Paul tells what is causing this delay.
What is restraining the revelation of the man of lawlessness and the coming of the Tribulation? (2 Thess. 2:6)
When Paul says "And..." he is continuing his thought from as far back as 2 Th 2:3. He began describing the man of lawlessness who would be revealed as the second prerequisite of the Tribulation. Here, the pronoun "him" refers to that man of lawlessness.
The Thessalonians knew something about this whole topic because of Paul's personal teaching ministry when he was with them. They "know what restrains him now" -- since they already know this, Paul does not specifically identify the "restrainer" here.
What restrains = "that which is right now continuously restraining" (present participle). Literally, "to hold down or hold back." The gender is neuter, which emphasizes the force exerted in restraining something.
Now (nun) = indicates that this restraining power was active in Paul's day.
The man of lawlessness is being restrained for the purpose that in his own season he will be revealed. God has set an appointed time when this man will be revealed (passive voice = he will not reveal himself; God will unveil him at the proper time).
Why does the man of lawlessness need to be restrained? (2 Thess. 2:7)
Because the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. There were already forces of lawlessness that were struggling to move forward even in Paul's day. These could be identified as the doctrines and practices that the Antichrist would later embody.
Mystery = typically means a truth that was previously unrevealed, but now is made known through special revelation. What is the mystery that is revealed here? Although lawlessness has always been known, what was not clear was that someday this "spirit of lawlessness" would become incarnate in the man of lawlessness (also see 1 Jn 2:18; 4:3).
Just as the Lord Jesus Christ is the incarnation of the principle of godliness (1 Tim 3:16), the Antichrist will embody the principle of lawlessness.
What is the identity of the restrainer?
Now (arti) = "at this very moment."
He who restrains = The gender is masculine, emphasizing the person who exercises this restraining force. (Compare with 2 Th 2:6)
Many speculative and imaginative ideas have appeared regarding the identity of the restrainer: a Roman Emperor or the Roman Empire, human government in general, the Church, the gospel, the Jews, and even the Antichrist or Satan.
The Evidence:
The Solution: God the Holy Spirit
The only plausible candidate who meets all of these requirements (and more) is the person of God the Holy Spirit, especially through His unique ministry during the Church Age.
In what sense will the restrainer be taken out of the way?
Taken out of the way (ek mesou genetai, aorist dep/mid subjunctive) = "should become out of the middle" -- to move out of one sphere of activity and into another.
ginomai is a deponent verb (middle for active voice), so it may not mean removal by an outside force but removal through a determined act on the part of the subject. In other words, the Restrainer moves himself out of the way, stepping aside, getting out from in between.
To be taken out of the way certainly does not mean to be entirely removed. It simply means to quit standing between; in other words, to stop the activity of restraining.
There will be a specific time in world history when the Holy Spirit will stop restraining lawlessness. Then (and only then) the man of lawlessness will be revealed and the Tribulation will begin.
http://www.spiritandtruth.org/teaching/Book_of_2nd_Thessalonians/04_2Thess_2_6-7/2Thess_2_6-7_Notes.htm
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
|
posted
The Holy Spirit is God. He is a part of the Trinity. He is the restrainer. After the Church is taken in the rapture, the anti-Christ will be more free to work.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Hi Ezekiel,
At first glance, I had thought that the two "He's" in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 must be referring to "The Holy Spirit" or "the Lord".....primarily by virtue of the use of capital H's.
But, upon further study.....
My bible makes a reference from 2 Thess. 2:7 to 1 John 2:18.........
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist(with a capital A!!?!!) is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
Interesting........let me tell you what I think.
Here is the verse we are looking at again.......
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
I think (opinion) that the 1st "He" is the "Lord" and the 2nd "He" is the "Antichrist"
What do you think?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
So right WildB and Betty. Second Thessalonians 2:1-12 discusses a man of lawlessness being held back until a later time. Interpreting the restrainer of evil (2:6) as the indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit at work through the body of Christ during the current age, supports the pretribulational interpretation. Since "the lawless one" (the beast or Antichrist) cannot be revealed until the Restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is taken away (2:7-8), the tribulation cannot occur until the church is removed. Of all the rapture positions, only the pre-trib position can be harmonized when we understand that the Restrainer is referring to the Holy Spirit.
The correct interpretation of this passage understands the restrainer to refer to the Holy Spirit as He functions during the present church age through the baptism of the Holy Spirit and indwelling of believers. This cryptic reference to the Holy Spirit's present work explains the unusual grammar employed in the passage. In verse six "the restrainer" is in the neuter gender (to katéchon) while in verse seven "the restrainer" is masculine (o katechôn).
Those who do not hold to pretribulationism often mischaracterize our view of the Holy Spirit in the tribulation. They often say that we do not believe that the Holy Spirit will be present during the tribulation. This is not what we are saying. We do believe that the Holy Spirit will be present and active during the tribulation. We do believe the Holy Spirit will not be carrying out His present unique ministry related to the church since all members of that body will be in heaven. Further, we are saying that the Holy Spirit will be present in His transdispensational ministry of bringing the elect of the tribulation to faith in Christ, even though they will not be part of the body of Christ-the church. The Holy Spirit will also aid tribulation Believers as they live holy lives unto the Lord. The Holy Spirit will also function to seal and protect the 144,000 Jewish witnesses for their great evangelistic ministry as noted in Revelation 7 and 14 and the two witnesses of Revelation 11.
Even though pretribulationists believe that many unique aspects of the current work of the Holy Spirit will cease at the rapture, it is not correct to say that we believe the Holy Spirit will not be present during the tribulation. Just as the Holy Spirit will engage in some ministries during the tribulation, relating to the 144,000 witnesses and the two witnesses, that are not occurring during the current church age, so there will cease certain ministries unique to the church which will enable the man of sin to come onto the stage of history.
(Ice)
May are new friend prayerfully consider his error.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
IIThessalonians 2:7-For the mystery of iniquity doth alrady work:only he who now letteth will let,untill he be taken out of the way.
Letteth=transitve verb,no noun,transfers to vs.4
--------------------------------------------------
Letteth is old Elizabeth talk that you don't seam to understand.
Your just plain wrong on this on my friend . By the way how old are you?
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Ezekiel 13:20
unregistered
|
posted
IIThessalonians 2:7-For the mystery of iniquity doth alrady work:only he who now letteth will let,untill he be taken out of the way.
Letteth=transitve verb,no noun,transfers to vs.4
IIThessalonians2:4-Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,or that is worshiped;so he as God sitteth in the Temple of God shewing himself that he is God.
That "he" is the same "him" in vs.9
IIThessalonians 2:9 Even him,whose coming is after the working of satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.
--------------------------------------------------
If there were such a thing as a pre-trib rapture and The Holy Spirit were taken away from earth,then where would the tribulation saints come from? How can any be saved except for the conviction of the Holy Spirit?
Oh, the confusion satan has caused with his pre-trib rapture doctrine!Pre-tribers are believing exactly what satan wants them to believe.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
So right WildB and Betty. Second Thessalonians 2:1-12 discusses a man of lawlessness being held back until a later time. Interpreting the restrainer of evil (2:6) as the indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit at work through the body of Christ during the current age, supports the pretribulational interpretation. Since "the lawless one" (the beast or Antichrist) cannot be revealed until the Restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is taken away (2:7-8), the tribulation cannot occur until the church is removed. Of all the rapture positions, only the pre-trib position can be harmonized when we understand that the Restrainer is referring to the Holy Spirit.
The correct interpretation of this passage understands the restrainer to refer to the Holy Spirit as He functions during the present church age through the baptism of the Holy Spirit and indwelling of believers. This cryptic reference to the Holy Spirit's present work explains the unusual grammar employed in the passage. In verse six "the restrainer" is in the neuter gender (to katéchon) while in verse seven "the restrainer" is masculine (o katechôn).
Those who do not hold to pretribulationism often mischaracterize our view of the Holy Spirit in the tribulation. They often say that we do not believe that the Holy Spirit will be present during the tribulation. This is not what we are saying. We do believe that the Holy Spirit will be present and active during the tribulation. We do believe the Holy Spirit will not be carrying out His present unique ministry related to the church since all members of that body will be in heaven. Further, we are saying that the Holy Spirit will be present in His transdispensational ministry of bringing the elect of the tribulation to faith in Christ, even though they will not be part of the body of Christ-the church. The Holy Spirit will also aid tribulation Believers as they live holy lives unto the Lord. The Holy Spirit will also function to seal and protect the 144,000 Jewish witnesses for their great evangelistic ministry as noted in Revelation 7 and 14 and the two witnesses of Revelation 11.
Even though pretribulationists believe that many unique aspects of the current work of the Holy Spirit will cease at the rapture, it is not correct to say that we believe the Holy Spirit will not be present during the tribulation. Just as the Holy Spirit will engage in some ministries during the tribulation, relating to the 144,000 witnesses and the two witnesses, that are not occurring during the current church age, so there will cease certain ministries unique to the church which will enable the man of sin to come onto the stage of history.
(Ice)
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
|
posted
So right Wild B. At the rapture the Holy Spirit will leave the earth in the way He is in Christians now. During the tribulation, it will be like in the Old Testament, people who get saved will not be filled with the Holy Spirit, except for the 144 thousand Jews said aside for sharing the Gospel. It will be harder to resist the anti-Christ because people will not have the protection that Christians have today. That is why it is important to pray for the lost to be saved before the rapture.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
The "he" who be taken out of the way is the anti-christ.
Christ made it plain and simple that the false one comes before He returns. Matt.24,Mark13,Luke21.
Wow! it is clear to all now why you are so confused. The He is the Holy Spirit.
If you read a little more it would be clear to you too.
[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
So according to your wrongful dividing your saying the false one goes so the Wicked one can come?
Now does that make any sense?
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Ezekiel 13:20
unregistered
|
posted
The "he" who be taken out of the way is the anti-christ.
Christ made it plain and simple that the false one comes before He returns. Matt.24,Mark13,Luke21.
--------------------------------------------------
The teaching of a "premillennial rapture" of the church was first promoted in Britian and the United States by John Nelson Darby,founder of the Plymouth Brethern.
David Horton,The Portable Seminary,pg.533
--------------------------------------------------
Beware of wolves in sheep skins teaching a bail out doctrine!
IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
According to the Rapture preachers,chapter 4 of Revelation is when the Church is "taken up".
There sure is a lot of confusion among "pre-trib" rapture preachers. Since it was first conceived in 1830 it sure has took a lot of twist and turns.....LOL
God is not the God of confusion.
Who is He?
2Thes.2
[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Ezekiel 13:20
unregistered
|
posted
According to the Rapture preachers,chapter 4 of Revelation is when the Church is "taken up".
There sure is a lot of confusion among "pre-trib" rapture preachers. Since it was first conceived in 1830 it sure has took a lot of twist and turns.....LOL
God is not the God of confusion.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
There is no mention of the Church in Revelation 4 - 19. This is because the Church has already been Raptured.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Ezekiel 13:20
unregistered
|
posted
Are the first few verses of Revelation ch.4 speaking of the Church being "raptured"?
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
WildB
Latin “Rapturo”
Greek “Harpazo”
English “Caught Up”’
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Carol,
What gives you the idea that I do not believe in tribulation?
With love in Christ, Daniel
We all believe in tribulation, I think. We all live with the trials and tribulations of life, just as our Lord Jesus Christ said we would.
But I said you don't believe in the Tribulation. The seven year Tribulation - the 70th week of Daniel - the time of Jacob's Trouble - the Revelation. Didn't you say that you believe Revelation is past, present, and future?
quote:
I wonder why so many people so often assume that Revelation is almost wholly compromised of events that are yet to pass. Revelation is a compilation of past, present, and future events.
http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007145
So, if you don't even believe in the Tribulation, why are you interested in the pre-trib Rapture? (just wondering)
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
Rapture is not in the Bible but harpazo is.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Hi Carol,
What gives you the idea that I do not believe in tribulation?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Ezekiel 13:20
unregistered
|
posted
Maybe,ITimothy 4:1 would shed some light on what's meant by falling away.
If anyone would care to read it.
IP: Logged |
|
|
|
|
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
|
posted
The Marriage Supper is not after the tribulation. The Marriage Supper will be going on during the tribulation in Heaven. The Tribulation starts at the end of the Church Age and the beginning of Israels time to be tested and proved by God.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Ezekiel 13:20
unregistered
|
posted
The apostacy can be seen any Sunday morning within the walls of the super-mega box churches.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Ezekiel 13:20
unregistered
|
posted
Will Christ take His Bride 7 years before the wedding?
IP: Logged |
|
|
byfaith
Advanced Member
Member # 8061
|
posted
hi Carol,
I think becausehelives was posting about apostasy in regards to it meaning falling away rather than having to do with the rapture. (maybe I am wrong in assuming that).
just something I saw when skimming through here.
but yes, apostasy could be another good subject for us to delve into...I would like to read more about what you guys think about that subject. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 160 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
becauseHElives, you posted an interesting article on apostasy, and hopefully you'll post it again so we can discuss it. But it's a big topic on it's own, and the Rapture is a big topic on it's own, so I don't want to combine them on the same thread. Actually we were talking about the pre-wrath Rapture, and got derailed by Ezekiel 13:20 (sigh).
The Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ![[rapture]](graemlins/rapture.gif)
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the [apostasia] comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
-2 Thessalonians 2:3
I believe that there is a strong possibility that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is speaking of the rapture. What do I mean? Some pretribulationists, like myself, think that the Greek noun apostasia, usually translated "apostasy," is a reference to the rapture and should be translated "departure." Thus, this passage would be saying that the day of the Lord will not come until the rapture comes before it. If apostasia is a reference to a physical departure, then 2Thessalonians 2:3 is strong evidence for pretribulationism.
The Meaning of Apostasia
The Greek noun apostasia is only used twice in the New Testament. In addition to 2 Thessalonians 2:3, it occurs in Acts 21:21 where, speaking of Paul, it is said, "that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia) Moses." The word is a Greek compound of apo " from" and istemi "stand." Thus, it has the core meaning of "away from" or "departure." The Liddell and Scott Greek Lexiconde fines apostasia first as "defection, revolt;" then secondly as "departure, disappearance."[1]
Gordon Lewis explains how the verb from which the noun apostasia is derived supports the basic meaning of departure in the following:
The verb may mean to remove spatially. There is little reason then to deny that the noun can mean such a spatial removal or departure. Since the noun is used only one other time in the New Testament of apostasy from Moses (Acts 21:21),we can hardly conclude that its Biblical meaning is necessarily determined. The verb is used fifteen times in the New Testament. Of these fifteen, only three have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8;13; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb 3:12). The word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Tim. 2:19),from ungodly men(1 Tim. 6:5), from the temple (Luke 2:27), from the body (2Cor. 12:8), and from persons (Acts 12:10; Luke 4:13).[2]
"It is with full assurance of proper exegetical study and with complete confidence in the original languages," concludes Daniel Davey, "that the word meaning of apostasia is defined as departure."[3]
Paul Lee Tan adds the following:
What precisely does Paul mean when he says that "the falling away" (2:3) must come before the tribulation? The definite article "the" denotes that this will be a definite event, an event distinct from the appearance of the Man of Sin. The Greek word for "falling away", taken by itself, does not mean religious apostasy or defection. Neither does the word mean "to fall," as the Greeks have another word for that. [pipto, I fall; TDI] The best translation of the word is "to depart." The apostle Paul refers here to a definite event which he calls "the departure," and which will occur just before the start of the tribulation. This is the rapture of the church.[4]
So the word has the core meaning of departure and it depends upon the context to determine whether it is used to mean physical departure or an abstract departure such as departure from the faith.
Translation History
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either "departure" or "departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible(1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539);Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).[5] This supports the notion that the word truly means "departure." In fact, Jerome's Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of a.d. 400 renders apostasia with the "word discessio, meaning 'departure.'"[6] Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure"?
Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as "falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza indeparting from translating apostasia as "departure." No good reason was ever given.
The Use of the Article
It is important to note that Paul uses a definite article with the noun apostasia. What does this mean? Davey notes the following:
Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article reference is being made to something in particular. In II Thessalonians2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.[7]
Dr.Lewis provides a likely answer when he notes that the definite article serves to make a word distinct and draw attention to it. In this instance he believes that its purpose is "to denote a previous reference." "The departure Paul previously referred to was 'our being gathered to him' (v. 1) and our being 'caught up' with the Lord and the raptured dead in the clouds (1 Thess.4:17)," notes Dr. Lewis.[8] The "departure" was something that Paul and his readers clearly had a mutual understanding about. Paul says in verse 5, "Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?"
The use of the definite article would also support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernable event. A physical departure, like the rapture would fit just such a notion. However, the New Testament teaches that apostasy had already arrived in the first century (cf. Acts 20:27-32; 1 Tim.4:1-5; 2 Tim. 3:1-9; 2 Pet. 2:1-3; Jude 3-4, 17-21) and thus, such a process would not denote a clear event as demanded by the language of this passage. Understanding departure as the rapture would satisfy the nuance of this text. E. Schuyler English explains as follows:
Again, how would the Thessalonians, or Christians in any century since, be qualified to recognize the apostasy when it should come, assuming, simply for the sake of this inquiry, that the Church might be on earth when it does come? There has been apostasy from God, rebellion against Him, since time began.[9]
Whatever Paul is referring to in his reference to "the departure," was something that both the Thessalonian believers and he had discussed in-depth previously. When we examine Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians, he never mentions the doctrine of apostasy, however, virtually every chapter in that epistle speaks of the rapture (cf. 1:9-10;2:19; probably 3:13; 4:13-17; 5:1-11). In these passages, Paul has used a variety of Greek terms to describe the rapture. It should not be surprising that he uses another term to reference the rapture in 2Thessalonians 2:3. Dr. House tells us:
Remember, the Thessalonians had been led astray by the false teaching (2:2-3) that the Day of the Lord had already come. This was confusing because Paul offered great hope, in the first letter, of a departure to be with Christ and a rescue from god's wrath. Now a letter purporting to be from Paul seems to say that they would first have to go through the Day of the Lord. Paul then clarified his prior teaching by emphasizing that they had no need to worry. They could again be comforted because the departure he had discussed in his first letter, and in his teaching while with them, was still the truth. The departure of Christians to be with Christ, and the subsequent revelation of the lawless one, Paul argues, is proof that the Day of the Lord had not begun as they had thought. This understanding of apostasia makes much more sense than the view that they are to be comforted (v. 2) because a defection from the faith must precede the Day of the Lord. The entire second chapter (as well as 1 Thessalonians 4:18; 5:11) serves to comfort (see vv. 2,3, 17), supplied by a reassurance of Christ's coming as taught in his first letter.[10]
Departure and The Restrainer
Since pretribulationists believe that the restrainer mentioned in verses 6 and 7 is the Holy Spirit and teaches a pre-trib rapture, then it should not be surprising to see that there is a similar progression of thought in the progression of verse 3. Allan MacRae, president of Faith Theological Seminary in a letter to Schuyler English has said the following concerning this matter:
I wonder if you have noticed the striking parallel between this verse and verses 7-8, a little further down. According to your suggestion verse 3 mentions the departure of the church as coming first, and then tells of the revealing of the man of sin. In verses 7 and 8 we find the identical sequence. Verse 7 tells of the removal of the Church; verse 8 says: "And then shall that Wicked be revealed." Thus close examination of the passage shows an inner unity and coherence, if we take the word apostasia in its general sense of "departure," while a superficial examination would easily lead to an erroneous interpretation as" falling away" because of the proximity of the mention of the man of sin.[11]
Kenneth Wuest, a Greek scholar from Moody Bible Institute added the following contextual support to taking apostasia as a physical departure:
But then hee apostasia of which Paul is speaking, precedes the revelation of Antichrist in his true identity, and is to katechon that which holds back his revelation (2:6). The hee apostasia, therefore, cannot be either a general apostasy in Christendom which does precede the coming of Antichrist, nor can it be the particular apostasy which is the result of his activities in making himself the alone object of worship. Furthermore, that which holds back his revelation (vs. 3) is vitally connected with hookatechoon (vs. 7), He who holds back the same event. The latter is, in my opinion, the Holy Spirit and His activities in the Church. All of which means that I am driven to the inescapable conclusion that the hee apostasia (vs. 3)refers to the Rapture of the Church which precedes the Day of the Lord, and holds back the revelation of the Man of Sin who ushers in the world-aspect of that period.[12]
Conclusion
The fact that apostasia most likely has the meaning of physical departure is a clear support for pretribulationism. If this is true, then it means that a clear prophetic sequence is laid out by Paul early in his Apostolic ministry. Paul teaches in 2 Thessalonians 2 that the rapture will occur first, before the Day of the Lord commences. It is not until after the beginning of the Day of the Lord that the Antichrist is released, resulting in the events described by him in chapter 2 of 2 Thessalonians. This is the only interpretation that provides hope for a discomforted people. Maranatha!
Dr. Thomas Ice
http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/rapture-in-2-thessalonians-23
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Carol,
I did read the link that you provided above.
In order for me to be able to agree with the author about his explanation of the word "apostacy" I would have to also agree with him that the words "falling away" mean "rapture"..........that would probably be hard for me to do. It would seem like a far stretch(to me) that Paul would use the words "falling away" in only one context, but use the words "caught up" instead in other contexts' that are making reference to a "rapture" event.
With love in Christ, Daniel
I agree there are better Rapture verses, thank you for mentioning them
Apparently you misunderstood. He did not say that "falling away" means "rapture":
quote:
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either
"departure" or " departing."
quote:
Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away."
quote:
The Greek word for " falling away" , taken by itself, does not mean religious apostasy or defection. Neither does the word mean " to fall," as the Greeks have another word for that. [pipto, I fall; TDI] The best translation of the word [apostasia] is " to depart." The apostle Paul refers here to a definite event which he calls " the departure,"
But if you don't even believe in the Tribulation, why are you interested in the pre-trib Rapture? (just wondering)
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
So you are betting on a 50/50 shot....LOL
Falling away means departure from the faith.
IIThessalonians ch.2 jerks the rug out from under any pre-trib rapture notion.
But pre-trib selling books and movies,lines the pockets of those who make them. Seriously deceives those who believe them.
No reason to "bet". The Lord will Rapture His Bride for His own reasons, not because of the way a Greek word is defined LOL.
Anyway, the pre-trib rapture doctrine doesn't depend on a single verse. But THIS verse cannot be used to DISPROVE it because the Greek CAN mean physical departure or disappearance. I'll show that more in a minute.
(You men want to gang-up on an old lady? Fine. I'm no coward. I'll divide and conquer - hee hee).
There are books and movies about a POST-trib Rapture too. But I can't for the life of me see what selling books and movies has to do with anything. Why do you keep bringing that up? Are you envious of others' success?
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
|
posted
“Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the Living God.” Hebrews 3:12
Apostasy (Greek ~ apostasia) appears twice in the New Testament as a noun (Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3) and here in Hebrews 3:12 as a verb (aphist—mi, translated “depart”). The Greek term is defined as a falling away, defection, withdrawal, or turning from what one has formerly turned to.
God makes us aware that there will be false prophets in the Church. It may be argued that these people are not real Christians, but it is obvious that they are in the Church to deceive those who are saved and to lead them astray. The apostle Peter writes, “There were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways.” (1 Peter 2:1.) Yet, to say that the false teachers\prophets and their followers were not once true believers flies in the face of Truth. In verses 20-22 Peter makes it abundantly clear that this is the case ~ “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.”
Therefore in this study we will seek to prove that an apostate is not an unbeliever but someone who once believed, and through personal choice has chosen to follow the Lord no longer. In doing so, we will clearly see that the teaching of eternal security as promoted by Calvinists is false and dangerous to one’s eternal life.
[1] To apostatise means to sever one’s saving relationship with Jesus Christ or to withdraw from vital union with and true faith in Him. In other words, personal apostasy is possible only for those who have first experienced salvation, regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit. “They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the Word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.” (Luke 8:13.) Also notice what the writer of Hebrews 6:4-6 has to say upon this subject; “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and having tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good Word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.” It is apparent that it is not a mere denial of New Testament doctrine by the unsaved spoken of here, but the rejection of Christ and the things of God by a one time believer. Apostasy may involve two separate, though related, aspects: (a) theological apostasy, i.e., rejection of all or some of the original teachings of Christ and the apostles and replacing them with liberal theology, false religion, or even atheism. Paul warns us that “the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.” (1 Timothy 4:1.) He later gives the reason for this apostasy in his second letter to Timothy; “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.” (2 Timothy 4:3-4), and (b) moral apostasy, i.e., the former believer ceases to abide in Christ and instead becomes enslaved again to sin and immorality ~ “What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 6:15-23.) Please remember that these verses were written to believers not to the unsaved. There same truth is taught in Romans 8:6-13 ~ “ For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” Again, notice that Paul is referring to believers not the unsaved. We see from the above Scriptures just how important it is to maintain our walk in Jesus Christ and not allow ourselves to be overcome by worldliness and sin.
[2] The Bible issues urgent warnings concerning the possibility of apostasy, designed both to alert us to the deadly peril of abandoning our union with Christ and to motivate us to persevere in faith and obedience. The divine purpose of these warning passages must not be weakened by the view that states that the warnings are real, but that in reality there is no possibility of apostasy or losing salvation. In fact we should regard them as a sincere alarm if we want to attain final salvation. The Bible is full of such warnings but the following verses should be enough to convince the child of God of the need to endure to the end. Acts 14:22 informs us that Paul exhorted the Church in Derbe to “continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.” It is the Lord’s desire to present us, His Church, pure and holy, but this can only be achieved if we live according to His Word. Paul tells us that this is possible “if ye continue in the faith, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel.” (Colossians 1:23.) As mentioned above, the Holy Spirit reveals to us that in the latter days people will fall away from the Lord and give themselves over to false doctrines. These doctrines damn the soul. This is why it is good to take the advice given to Timothy, “Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.” (1 Timothy 4:16.) If there was no possibility of turning away from Christ why would Paul further charge Timothy to “fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life.” (1 Timothy 6:12)? It is this keeping a tight grip upon salvation that is so essential and it’s the very place that so many fail and fall. Because of the “once saved, always saved” doctrine many live ungodly lives. I have personally known Christians who lived like the world with no real desire to live for God, simply because they believed if they are saved and cannot lose salvation, then why worry! These are doing exactly what the Bible warns the early Church not to do; “How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to His own will?” (Hebrews 2:3-4.) If the truth be told, what is really happening here is the hardening of the heart. Jehovah destroyed His own people in the wilderness because of their refusal to accept and follow His Word. Hebrews 3:8 cautions us, “Harden not your hearts, as in the day of provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness.” If we do we also will find that God will say unto us, “They shall not enter into my rest.” (:11.) This is the reason the very next verse warns us to “Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the Living God” (:12.) Calvinists fail to see that a Christian who backslides is a sinner and needs to be converted or else he will go to a lost eternity in Hell. This is what James points out so effectively in 5:19-20; “Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.” Very sound advice when we consider that this was James’ last statement to his readers. To sum up this section: We need to pay attention to what the Lord has given to us if we are going to reach the goal. If we give up and turn away from the Lord, it is not that we have lost salvation but that we have thrown it away, we will not inherit eternal life. What the Lord has given to us needs to remain and we need to continue in Him. “Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.” (1 John 2:24.)
[3] At this point let us turn to some examples of apostasy in the New Testament. All will admit that it is by God’s grace that we are saved through faith in our Saviour Jesus Christ. To live contrary to the Word of God would make us fall from this grace, just as Paul pointed out to the Galatian Church ~ “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4.) This was his response to the Gentile Church in Galatia as they were becoming confused by the teachings of those who said that they must follow Jewish customs to be saved. Calvinists have told me that such passages of Scripture (including those in Hebrews) were written to Jewish converts and do not apply to Gentile believers. Firstly, despite the fact that Hebrews was written to Jewish converts to Christianity they were Christians, therefore the Hebrews was written to Christians; Secondly, though Paul mentions the Jewish legalists, he was writing to the Gentile Church in Galatia; Lastly, the New Testament letters were written to Churches or at least individuals in Churches, and these Churches were made up of Christian believers regardless if they came from a Jewish or Gentile background ~ “There is neither Jew nor Greek [Gentile], their is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Galatians 3:28.)
The possibility of losing salvation sounds blasphemous to some, yet this is exactly what the Word of God teaches. If we were to reject Christ we would be making shipwreck of our faith. “Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: of whom is Hymenæus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.” (1 Timothy 1:19-20.) Once you have made shipwreck your faith in Christ there are no other salvation vessels provided by the Lord. The only way you can have full assurance of salvation is by maintaining a continual trust in Christ, or to put it another way, by staying in His fellowSHIP.
If you are still unconvinced that a person can fall away, put away and reject the salvation he has received, then what do you think about Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11)? What do you think of Demas who forsook Paul “having loved this present world” (2 Timothy 4:10)? In fact the Bible predicts that during the last days, the antichrist age, there will be a falling away from the Lord (2 Thessalonians 2:3.)
[4] The steps that lead to apostasy are as follows:
(a) " Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.” (Hebrews 12:14.) The lack of personal holiness is the major factor in backsliding and falling away from the Lord. Almost everyone who stops following God’s way has been enticed by this world. There is a general lack of seriousness in the Church today regarding the call to commitment and holiness. It has become outdated and legalistic to some, yet it is a must if we are going to see the Lord. This desire to serve God must continue regardless of what temptations or tribulations we may face in the Christian life. The sad but true fact is there is very little substance to the gospel being presented today. Because of this there is a corresponding lack of dedication amongst believers. They fall away from Christ because they are not rooted in Him ~ “They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the Word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.” (Luke 8:13.) This is why preachers of the Gospel need to get back to preaching the Bible and to tell their listeners that they should be “rooted and built up in Him, and stablished in the faith.” (Colossians 2:7.) Today there is too much concern about what other people think. Unless we are bold in our faith it is easy to become embarrassed about being rejected for being a Christian and to seek man’s approval. “How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?” (John 5:44.)
(b) As worldliness gets its claws into a believer’s life the joy of serving Jesus departs. There is no longer a drawing near to God and His Word. The things of God begin to take second place until they become the last thing on our mind. Listen to these instructions that were originally written to the Hebrews: “Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. . . . Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them. . . . But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh unto God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.” (Hebrews 4:16; &:25; 11:6.)
(c) Is it not amazing that what Christians once called sin is now tolerated as acceptable behaviour. Christians, like the world, are no longer ashamed of their sin but openly flaunt it in the guise of so-called Christian Liberty. What really happens in this case is that righteousness is no longer loved. Listen, “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abuses of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10.) If you happen to see your own sin in that list then you need to get right with God now before it is too late! Do you want to see a confirmation of what Paul wrote? Well let’s look at Ephesians 5:5 ~ “For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.” My aim here is not to condemn you but to make you alert to the true facts of our responsibility in serving Jesus Christ. In fact Hebrews 3:13 gives us each such a command ~ “Exhort one another daily, while it is called Today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.”
(d) Through hardening of the heart the ways of God are rejected. Soon the still small voice of God’s Holy Spirit is drowned out with the world’s multitudes of voices offering a more enlightened, liberal way. It is then that the Holy Spirit of God is grieved and quenched in our lives. The temple He came to inhabit has been violated by sin ~ “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?” But don’t stop there! “If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.” (1 Corinthians 3:16-17.)
[5] If apostasy continues its course unchecked, an individual may eventually reach the point when no second beginning is possible. Continuing to wilfully sin is so dangerous yet pastors and teachers do not warn their flock. “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin, but a certain fearful looking for of judgement and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.” (Hebrews 10:26-27.) Through false teaching Christians do not believe that there is a limit to God’s patience. Hebrews 10:31 reminds us that “it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God.” To safeguard against the danger of ultimate apostasy all we have to do is love God enough to obey all His Word. It is that easy, yet why do so many fool around and play religion? In fact they have doomed themselves to a lost eternity, and at the same time deceived themselves with the thought, “Well, at least I said the sinners prayer.” If you find yourself in this position at this moment then do something about it. “Today, if ye will hear His voice, harden not your hearts.” (Hebrews 3:7-8, :15; 4:7.)
[6] It must be made clear that while apostasy is a danger for all who drift from the faith and fall away, it is not made complete without constant and wilful sinning against the voice of the Holy Spirit.
[7] Those who by an unbelieving heart depart from God may think they are Christians, but their indifference to the demands of Christ and the Holy Spirit and to the warnings of Scripture points otherwise. Because of the very real possibility of self-deception, Paul exhorts all those claiming salvation to “examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.” (2 Corinthians 13:5.)
[8] Finally, any person who becomes sincerely concerned about his spiritual condition and finds in his heart the desire to return to God in repentance, has sure evidence he has not committed unpardonable apostasy. God wants you to live under the power of His saving faith. If Jesus did so much for you in dying on the cross to bring you to eternal life, then is it too much to ask that you live for Him the way He requires?
“I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.” (Romans 12:1-2.)
Used with permission (Full Life Study Bible)
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Hi Carol,
I did read the link that you provided above.
In order for me to be able to agree with the author about his explanation of the word "apostacy" I would have to also agree with him that the words "falling away" mean "rapture"..........that would probably be hard for me to do. It would seem like a far stretch(to me) that Paul would use the words "falling away" in only one context, but use the words "caught up" instead in other contexts' that are making reference to a "rapture" event.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Ezekiel 13:20
unregistered
|
posted
So you are betting on a 50/50 shot....LOL
Falling away means departure from the faith.
IIThessalonians ch.2 jerks the rug out from under any pre-trib rapture notion.
But pre-trib selling books and movies,lines the pockets of those who make them. Seriously deceives those who believe them.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
Well okay, for those who don't really want to know the truth, you can ignore all the research and just bad-mouth everyone.
But when you talk about what the Bible says, what you actually mean is what the translators of your favorite version tell you that the Bible says. The KJV has a lot of mistakes.
Anyone who seriously wants to know what the Bible says will take an honest look at the Greek.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB)
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
The Greek noun apostasia is a compound of apo " from" and istemi " stand." Thus, it has the core meaning of " away from" or " departure." The Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon defines apostasia first as " defection, revolt;" then secondly as " departure, disappearance."
It can mean a departure from the faith (apostasy) but it can ALSO mean a physical departure or disappearance, as in the Rapture.
So if you are out to prove the pre-trib rapture is wrong, you'll have to find some other way to do it. This verse won't work.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Ezekiel 13:20
unregistered
|
posted
II Thessalonians makes it clear,we will not gather back to Christ (call it rapture if you want) untill after the man of sin stands in Jerusalem saying he is God.
Looks like satan has the pre-trib raptionist deceived into to thinking this man of sin (anti-christ)will come after they have been raptured out of here.
Paul made it clear,the finial generation will see the anti-christ standing where he ought not.
John sure wasted alot of time and paper warning about the anti-christ in the Epistles of John if nobody except the wicked were going to be here.
I don't think the wicked will be looking for a Bible to read and see what's going on when this day happens. They will be quite satisfied to think he is God.
Satan "ain't" after his own,he's already got them. He's out to deceive as many of God's children as he can. Looks like quite a few have been deceived into thinking they aren't going to be here. Whenever that time comes.
IP: Logged |
|
|
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Would someone please explain a discrepancy(paradox) I have noticed in following the Pre-trib line of thought.............
How can Pre-trib believers make the claim that they believe Jesus can come at any moment and still be able to reconcile that belief with the belief that the "man of sin" must first appear on the scene( which is according to Thessalonians)?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
|
posted
Pre-Trib is Bible doctrine.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
It is clear that the early church immediately following the apostles held to a premillennial view of Christ's coming to earth. These theologians embraced two key truths concerning Christ's return to earth. The idea of an any moment return and a coming of Christ to rule as the political and spiritual king over the world were advocated by many of the earliest theologians.
http://www.essentialchristianity.com/pages.asp?pageid=21918
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Ezekiel 13:20
unregistered
|
posted
You can't base truth on fiction.
Pretrib-Rapture is a theory at best,not a Bibical doctrine.
IP: Logged |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
|
posted
I learned the pretrib rapture 25 years before the books were written. It was taught from THE BIBLE.
You are the one mistaken.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Ezekiel 13:20
unregistered
|
posted
Yes,there will be quite a few shocked Christians who find themselves right in the middle of tribulation with no oil in their lamps and the door shut.
Who listened to the pre-trib rapture theory of men instead of God's Holy Word.
But it was more exciting to read the books and watch the movies than reading God's Truth.
Those writing the books and making the movies are laughing all the way to the bank.
IP: Logged |
|
|
|
|
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
|
posted
You don't have to believe in the rapture to be taken, just saved. So I will look for all the shocked Christians during the rapture. Going to be quite a few, I believe.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Ezekiel 13:20
unregistered
|
posted
I will venture to assert that,there is not a Bible teacher nor anyone else living in the world today who has found a pre-trib rapture in the Bible by his own independent study of the Bible itself. These teachers all come to the Bible with cut-and-dried theories which they have learned elsewhere,and twist and torture texts to fit the theory.If the spiritual pedigree of the Pre-trib Bible teachers could be traced back,they would all be found to spring from one source,Lacunza,the Jesuit priest.
Duncan McDougall
"Rapture of the Saints"
IP: Logged |
|
|
John Hale
unregistered
|
posted
Revelation 3:10 (KJV)
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Revelation 13:10 (KJV)
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Revelation 13:3-10 (KJV)
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
The Three-Quarters Rapture Theory
Robert Van Kampen was the inventor of the three-quarters rapture theory in the late 1970s. According to one who was there, he first excluded pretribulationism and then excluded posttribulationism. Thus, he had to come up with another view. That view is what he called the "pre-wrath" rapture theory. That title is a misnomer, since pretribulationism is 100% pre-wrath. If we follow consistency in labeling, Van Kampen's view should be called the three-quarters rapture position, since he teaches that the church will be raptured somewhere in the middle of the last three and a half years of the 70th week of Daniel.
Van Kampen spent a number of years searching for an advocate of his newly developed viewpoint until he was finally able to persuade Marvin Rosenthal to adopt and champion his new theory. I have a friend who was interviewed extensively by Van Kampen (in the 80s) for the pastorate of the church he attended in the Chicago area. My friend spent hours on the phone with Van Kampen, as he tried to convince him of his strange rapture view. In the end, my friend could not agree with Van Kampen. It was clear that Van Kampen was searching for someone to champion his rapture position. Rosenthal wrote a book called The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church, which was published by Thomas Nelson in 1990. Later Van Kampen came out with his own book called The Sign (three editions, 1992, 1999, 2000) from Crossway Books. He then had published The Rapture Question Answered: Plain and Simple (1997) with Revell.
What Is The Three-Quarters Rapture Theory?
Van Kampen's three-quarters rapture view is a blend of midtribulational and posttribulational rationale. Instead of seeing the 24 terms describing the 70th week of Daniel as denoting various characteristics of a single period, Van Kampen chops them into compartmental segments that contain either the wrath of man and Satan or the wrath of God. Through redefinition, Van Kampen limits the wrath of God to the final year and three-quarters of the seven-year period and deduces that the rapture occurs right before that time period. Van Kampen distinguishes the rapture and the second coming with a gap of one and three-quarters years between them. He has the church continuing through the first three-quarters of the tribulation until the three-quarters point rapture occurs.
Van Kampen's theory requires several unique features concerning the church and the tribulation. First, he chops the seventieth week of Daniel into three parts: 1) the beginning of birth pangs (first three and a half years), 2) the great tribulation (first half of the second half of the seven years), 3) the day of the Lord (last half of the second half of the seven years, plus a thirty day period after the second coming). By arbitrarily compartmentalizing the 70th week of Daniel in this way, Van Kampen prepares the way for his view by saying that the first two periods (first three-quarters of the seven-year period) is the wrath of man and Satan but not God's wrath. By speculating that God's wrath only occurs during the last quarter of the 70th week of Daniel, he concludes that the rapture occurs at that point and keeps the church out of the wrath of God.
Some Reasons Why Van Kampen's Theory Is Wrong
This view of the rapture is not only built upon faulty interpretation of the Bible, but also upon flawed data and logic. In 1990 Marvin Rosenthal released the first published expression of the Van Kampen rapture view in all of history. I read and detected many problems with the book. Rosenthal made the following statement: "The Greek word thlipsis, translated tribulation or affliction in many English Bibles, occurs twenty times in the New Testament" (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, p. 103). My concordance showed that it actually occurs 45 times. Why had he not even considered over half of the New Testament references?
The point that Rosenthal was attempting to make when he committed such a glaring factual error was that the word "tribulation" is never used to refer to the first half of Daniel's 70th week (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, pp. 103-08). This is not the case since Matthew24:9 is an instance where "tribulation" (KJV= "afflicted") refers to the first half of Daniel's 70th week. Dr. John McLean explains:
Rosenthal has not only overstated his case but has stated as true fact that which is clearly false. A cursory reading of a Greek concordance reveals that the word "tribulation" (thlipsis) is used in prophetic contexts to refer to both the first and second halves of the seventieth week of Daniel. Matthew 24:9, which chronologically relates to the first half of the seventieth week as evidenced by its preceding the midpoint of the abomination of desolation (Matt. 24:15-21) states: "Then they will deliver you to tribulation (thlipsis), and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name" (NASB). Clearly the biblical text describes the first half of the seventieth week as a time of tribulation.
The second half of the seventieth week is also described as a time of tribulation. Second Thessalonians 1:6 uses the Greek word thlipsin while referring to the second coming of Christ which occurs during the second half of the seventieth week of Daniel: "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction (thlipsin) those who afflicted you" (NASB). Therefore, it is proper and even biblical to refer to, and even describe, the seventieth week of Daniel as "The Tribulation," or "A Time of Tribulation."[1]
Interestingly, Rosenthal restricts thlipsin "tribulation" to simply trials to be experienced (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, p. 237), while at the same time locating such tribulation in the first half of Daniel's 70th week (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, p. 152). Like Dr. McLean and pretribulationists, Rosenthal equates Matthew 24:9 with the fifth seal judgment as stated in Revelation 6:9-11. Yet if Rosenthal admits the obvious logical conclusion-that the tribulation in Matthew 24:9 is the tribulation-then it would provide another reason that contradicts his new view and would support pretribulationism.
God's Wrath
Van Kampen defines only the final quarter of Daniel's 70th week as the only time of God's wrath. He sees the first three quarters as the wrath of man and Satan. But does the Bible make such distinctions? It does not!
Wrath in Zephaniah
Zephaniah1:14-18 heaps together a cluster of terms that characterize the future Day of the Lord. Verse 14 labels this time as "the great day of the Lord" and "the day of the Lord." Then verse 15-18 describe this time with the following descriptions: "that day is a day of wrath," "a day of trouble and distress,""a day of wasteness and desolation," "a day of darkness and gloominess," "a day of clouds and thick darkness," "a day of the trumpet and alarm," "I will bring distress upon men," and "the day of the Lord's wrath." The context supports the notion that all these descriptives apply to the Day of the Lord. Such biblical usage does not allow an interpreter to chop the Day of the Lord into compartmental segments as Van Kampen insists. The text plainly says that the Day of the Lord is a time of both tribulation and God's wrath. All of the many descriptives in this passage provide a characterization of the Day of the Lord that applies to the entire seven-year period. The Zephaniah passage clearly contradicts the basis upon which Van Kampen attempts to build his recently developed theory. Zephaniah is not alone in providing an obstacle to the Van Kampen speculation.
Wrath in Revelation
Revelation 6:1-17 records the six seal judgments, which are the first reported judgments of the tribulation. Revelation 6 and the seal judgments also contradict the Van Kampen formulation since the Bible describes all six judgments as ". . .the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come . . ." (Rev.6:16c-17a). Even though Van Kampen cannot recognize God's wrath, the unbelievers at the beginning of the seven-year tribulation will be able to. Revelation 5 reveals that only the Lamb (Christ) was qualified to open the seals that would begin the first judgments of the tribulation. As we connect the dots of Revelation 5 and 6, there is no basis for saying that the events of the seal judgments are somehow disconnected from Scripture's characterization as God's wrath. The following observations about the seal judgments support such a connection:
•The Lamb is the Individual Who breaks, and thus initiates, all six of the seals(Revelation 6:1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12) clearly indicating that He (God) is the source of the events or wrath. These are explicit references to the wrath of God, not the wrath of man or Satan as taught by Van Kampen.
•One quarter of the earth's population is killed (Rev. 6:8).
•The fifth seal reveals that multitudes of Christian martyrs are slain as a result of seal activity, which has to be considered the wrath of the Lamb. God allows this to occur when the Lamb breaks the seal in this part of the seal judgments.
•At the end of the six seal judgments an assessment is given as follows: "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Rev. 6:16-17). "Him that sitteth on the throne" is God the Father as indicated in chapter 4, thus it is clearly God's wrath. It is also the Lamb's wrath (Christ). The passage clearly says "the great day of his wrath is come," meaning that all six of the seal judgments are classified as God's wrath.
Van Kampen attempts to say that the events of the seal judgments are not really "God's wrath", but the wrath of man. Rosenthal declares, "The word wrath occurs eight times in the book of Revelation. All eight occurrences follow the opening of the sixth seal. The word wrath is never used in connection with the first five seals" (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, p. 176). Rosenthal neglects to tell his readers that Revelation6:16-17 is a summary statement of all the previous seal judgments. In spite of the Van Kampen claim to follow the plain interpretation of the text (Van Kampen, Rapture Question, p.23-24.), I believe that Revelation 6:16-17 relates to all six seal judgments for the following reasons: First, Revelation 6:15-17 is an overall report of the human response to God's judgment as administered through all six seal judgments. A similar evaluation is recorded after the trumpet judgments in Revelation 9:20-21. This argues in favor of associating this report with the preceding seal judgments.
Second, the controlling verb in verse 17, "is come" (lthen), "is aorist indicative, referring to a previous arrival of the wrath, not something that is about to take place"[2] Rosenthal's attempt to say that this verb is a future aorist (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, pp. 166-67), cannot be supported by the context. Such contextual support is necessary to adopt his unusual use of the aorist indicative. Further, if a future look were intended by the verb then John most likely would have used the future tense. Such stress and strain in biblical interpretation demonstrates the forced notion that Van Kampen's new invention is not the product of sound biblical exegesis.
Third, Revelation 5 narrates a heavenly scene of Christ pictured as a slain, but victorious Lamb. The Lamb is pictured as worthy to open the seals on a scroll, which result in judgment-the judgment described in the succeeding chapter as the seal judgments. In chapter 6, each one of the seal judgments commences as a result of the Lamb's breaking of each seal (Revelation 6:1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12). Since all six seal judgments begin the same way, with the breaking of the seal by the Lamb, one should not be at all surprised that Revelation 6:16-17summarizes all six judgments as "the wrath of the Lamb," and "the great day of his wrath." This cannot be the wrath of man or Satan.
The above information provides ample biblical proof that all six seal judgments are the wrath of God (Lamb). Since all six seal judgments are designated in Scripture as God's wrath it means that the entire 70th week of Daniel is called the wrath of God in Revelation 6. Therefore, this passage does not support the Van Kampen interpretation. Since the church is promised deliverance from the wrath of God (Rom. 5:9, 1 Thess. 1:10, 5:9, and Rev. 3:10), it is clear in light of Revelation 6 that the church will be raptured before the seventieth week of Daniel.
Conclusion
The above points are just a few of the errors that can be noted about Van Kampen's theory. As he demonstrates in his writings, if one errs at this crucial point then it paves the way for faulty conclusions. It should be clear that Van Kampen must resort to strained characterizations of things like the day of the Lord, the tribulation, and the scope of God's wrath in order to first avoid pretribulationism and then to support his new rapture view. Bible believing Christians should continue to draw strength and hope from the fact that our Lord could rapture His church at any moment. We will not be left standing when our Lord moves history to the point of the commencement of the seven-year tribulation. Maranatha!
Dr. Thomas Ice - Pre-Trib Research Center
http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/three-quarters-rapture-theory
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
An Evaluation of the New "Pre-Wrath" Rapture Theory
The new "Pre-Wrath" rapture theory was devised by Robert Van Kampen and has been popularized largely by Marvin Rosenthal. The major work on this subject has been Rosenthal's "The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church" (1990). However, Van Kampen has now published two of his own works, "The Sign" (1992) and "The Rapture Question Answered: Plain and Simple" (1997). The subtitle of Rosenthal's book reads: "A new understanding of the Rapture, the Tribulation, and the Second Coming." The word "new" is both in italics and in a different color than the rest of the type. This own self-acknowledgment of their view...[it is] a new innovation. According to Rosenthal's own assessment of himself, he is "in the technical sense . . . not a scholar," and he refers to Van Kampen simply as a "Christian businessman." This lack of scholarship is reflected in his book, which demonstrates a definite unfamiliarity with Biblical Greek.
Areas of Agreement
1. The wrath of God occurs only after the rapture (p. 61).
2. The Day of the Lord is a time of God's wrath (p. 35).
3. The Rapture occurs before the Day of the Lord begins (p. 117).
4. On page 189 he states, "Those four words, 'at the last trump,' reveal in the clearest possible way the precise occasion when the Rapture of the church will occur."
5. He also argues very vigorously that there is only one coming (pp. 129, 222-224).
Major Areas of Problem
1. He proposes a strict sequential interpretation of the book of Revelation (p. 35, 112), which is crucial to his position.
2. He divides the 70th week into three parts (p. 61), whereas the Bible routinely divides it only into two. He places the rapture and the beginning of the Day of the Lord somewhere in the middle of the second half (p. 61). He also states that the starting point of the Day of the Lord is crucial to his position (p. 117, 126), yet there is no biblical justification to place this starting point where he does.
3. In order to distinguish the rapture from what he calls the "return in glory," he has a rapture where Christ is not bodily present (p. 217-218). Compare this to the rapture passage in the Bible which states that "the Lord Himself will descend from heaven" (1 Thess. 4:16).
4. If he can maintain a gap of up to several years between the rapture and the "return in glory" yet still claim that this is one event, then the only difference between his position and that of pre-tribulationism (seven years) is the duration of this gap.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
