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Topic: God's holy spirit
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Michael Harrison
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Isaiah, once again, i kinda see your logic. Still, whether He is a separate person, I see that He is the person of God.
Again i will promote this verse:
"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." (Joh 4:24)
So, whether He is a separate person or no, He still is the person of God. But the only reason we see three individual aspects (i will call them aspects) is to see the operation of God spelled out, if you will, or credited. If you look at you, if you look at me, we see only 'a person'. Yet we are composed of spirit, soul, and body. These three are distinct concerning our layers of makeup. We associate with the world around us using all three; however, we can't separate them.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Jesus is the image of the invisible God. We will ever see Him, but know that the Spirit and the Father are there.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Isaiah
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OK -last post for me on this -originally wanted to point out that there are differences in belief about almost every belief among those who claim to follow the same God...but...again....
(first, I cannot answer your two questions as "the trinity" has various definitions and I do not know of which you speak -but... as I do undertand the doctrine[s] of the trinity, my answers are 1:No, and 2:Yes. Also beware of the yes and no trap -Christ was asked whether he was the king of the Jews -and he answered "Thou has said"...his answer was certainly not of the evil one. Sometimes the questions are from the evil one.)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
That is two beings.
They certainly have always had their holy spirit.
It was NOT the holy spirit which created all things -but the Father -by the Son....
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
In Genesis, when the spirit of God (translated Spirit of God by those who falsely assumed this to be the title of a separate person) moved upon the face of the waters, that was HOW the being who became Christ did the creating -not WHO.
God -by HIS spirit -put within Joseph the knowledge that there would be famine, etc... he did not send a third party to hop into Joseph....
Gen 41:38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is? Gen 41:39 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, Forasmuch as God hath shewed thee all this, there is none so discreet and wise as thou art.....
God -by HIS spirit -gave certain men talents in various crafts -again not sending a third party -but putting in their minds what they needed to know and making them able to do what was to be done....
Exo 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
Exo 31:4 To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,
Exo 31:5 And in cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of timber, to work in all manner of workmanship.
God FILLED HIM -he did not send another to literally inhabit him...
Exo 35:31 And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;
It is this same spirit -the comforter -which God poured out to a greater extent beginning at that noteable pentecost....Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
However, due to misunderstandings which crept in after these events, we now have scriptures translated into English which read....
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Joh 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Joh 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
and...
Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
and...
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
...but Christ did NOT actually say he would send another PERSON! What he said was.....
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I WILL COME TO YOU.
and...
Joh 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye SHALL SEE ME, because I go to the Father.
..and in proper translation -please look up the words by the greek and hebrew numbers which allow for such as "it" rather than "he", etc.....
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when "it", the spirit of truth, is come, "it" will guide you into all truth: for "it" shall not speak of "itself"; but whatsoever "it" shall hear, that shall "it" speak: and "it" will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14 "It" shall glorify me: for "it" shall receive of MINE, and shall shew it unto you.
This is not saying that the spirit has ears and a mind of its own -IT CANNOT SPEAK OF ITSELF -but it is that by which God can pass HIS things onto YOU without being in close proximity.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another comforter, that it may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the spirit of truth; which the world cannot receive, because it seeth it not, neither knoweth it: but ye know it; for it dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I IN YOU.
Those literary devices which seem to personify the spirit are also used in the bible for obviously inanimate objects -and are not proofs.
1Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
CHRIST CAME TO THEM -BY EMPLOYING HIS SPIRIT -on that day of pentecost -though he was in heaven, he acted on earth by it -he did not send another PERSON -but he no longer was their comforter IN PERSON -but could NOW comfort them BY THE SPIRIT -which was not possible until he ascended to heaven.
It is the same spirit BY WHICH HE WENT and preached to the spirits in prison, etc... -not being near, but acting nonetheless(1Pe 3:18-20) -and is the same spirit BY WHICH HE CREATED ALL THINGS -NOT HAVING TO LABOUR IN A WORKSHOP, BUT MERELY BEING ABLE TO SAY "LET THERE BE......." -and it WAS.
It is the same holy spirit (not Holy Ghost as in a separate person)-the POWER OF GOD by which Mary was impregnated by God.
To say another person is involved is to shift focus from Christ -and more importantly the Father -who Christ pointed us to even in prayer.
This error HAS and WILL lead many to NOT BE LEAD BY THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH -and they WILL eventually find themselves in less than desireable circumstances due to it.
I do not expect you to believe this, but was trying to illustrate that among those who say they follow God, there is much disagreement and confusion. Even among those who believe the spirit is a separate person, there is disagreement as to whether it is a person as the Father and the Word are a person, etc...
You might think that I will eventually find myself in less than desirable circumstances for believing as I do -and this is perfectly understandable -but it is good to see things from other perspectives.
For instance... we grow up being taught certain things -assuming certain things -and some never hear much of any other perspective -to their hurt. Some are even afraid to consider that what they believe might not be perfectly accurate -thinking that it would be sin to even doubt it.
Yet God tells us to prove all things -and hold fast to that which is good (1Th 5:21), and it is good to search the scriptures to see if that which we are taught by men is true.
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Act 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
For every truth, Satan makes at least one counterfeit. He deceives the whole world. HE TRANSFORMS HIMSELF INTO AN ANGEL OF LIGHT. Some believe they interact with the spirit of God -but are quite in error.
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Carol Swenson
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lonlesol is right! The Holy Spirit is not different from the Father or the Son! He is not a different kind of being than They are.
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lonlesol
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quote:
...and we need not comprehend three -because in the beginning their was the Word and God -and by their spirit they did create.
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
Isaiah.....try to focus on this:
God is composed of Three Beings. They are described as:
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit
But the Three of Them make ONE God......
When we read this verse, it says:
''and the Spirit of God''...
it isn't meant to be interpreted as ''God's Spirit''...
because if it did, it would have been specifically written:
''and the Spirit of God the Father''...
which is not!...
I have two questions for you Isaiah...
1. Do you believe in the Trinity?...
2. Do you understand the Trinity?...
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Isaiah
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I appreciate all your replies -but don't want to get stuck in a loop here.
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lonlesol
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Question: "Who is the Holy Spirit?"
Answer: There are many misconceptions on the identity of the Holy Spirit. Some view the Holy Spirit as a mystical force. Others understand the Holy Spirit as the impersonal power God makes available to followers of Christ. What does the Bible say about the identity of the Holy Spirit? Simply put - the Bible says that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also tells us that the Holy Spirit is a Person, a Being with a mind, emotions, and a will.
The fact that the Holy Spirit is God is clearly seen in many Scriptures including Acts 5:3-4. In this verse Peter confronts Ananias as to why he had lied to the Holy Spirit and tells him that he had “not lied to men but to God.” It is a clear declaration that lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God. We can also know that the Holy Spirit is God because He possesses the attributes or characteristics of God. For example, the fact that the Holy Spirit is omnipresent is seen in Psalm 139:7-8, “Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.” Then in 1 Corinthians 2:10, we see the characteristic of omniscience in the Holy Spirit. “But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.”
We can know that the Holy Spirit is indeed a Person because He possesses a mind, emotions, and a will. The Holy Spirit thinks and knows (1 Corinthians 2:10). The Holy Spirit can be grieved (Ephesians 4:30). The Spirit intercedes for us (Romans 8:26-27). The Holy Spirit makes decisions according to His will (1 Corinthians 12:7-11). The Holy Spirit is God, the third “Person” of the Trinity. As God, the Holy Spirit can truly function as the Comforter and Counselor that Jesus promised He would be (John 14:16,26; 15:26).
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Isaiah
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I understand what you are saying -I am not trying to play word games -just the opposite. The Father is a spirit -Christ is a spirit -angels are spirits -but the holy spirit IS GOD'S SPIRIT. The Father and Christ HAVE THE SAME SPIRIT -a spirit just as he gave us a spirit when he made us in his image -and our spirit can be grieved as his is grieved -EXCEPT- his is HOLY -ours is NOT -and we can not be like HIM unless he puts HIS SPIRIT IN US. His spirit is a spirit of a SOUND MIND -ours is not -His spirit is a spirit of LOVE -ours is not -his is a spirit of POWER -ours is not.
Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
...but due to being taught so -and reading translations which need not -and should not -read so, etc... -people are convinced that a third person is involved.
...and we need not comprehend three -because in the beginning their was the Word and God -and by their spirit they did create.
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Isaiah
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No -that is not the case by "my" logic -or any other -Christ is obviously a person...the Father is obviously a person. The spirit is not obviously a person, though preconceptions have altered scripture to make it seem so.
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Michael Harrison
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Whaduyah mean huh??? You were saying that the Holy Spirit is not a person, and I had a further thought. Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. By your logic on the Spirit, and since Jesus is the Word which proceeded forth from God, then He, under that assumption, could be considered 'it', the same way that you consider the Holy Spirit to be rather than 'He' - it! ![[cool_shades]](graemlins/cool_shades.gif) Just FWIW, No?
I just wanted to keep it going because:
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
We cannot understand three, really. It is like trying to comprehend someone who has no beginning. Think for a minute how far back that goes!
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Michael Harrison
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Christ is the Word of God! Therefore we could say that the Word of God died on the cross for our sins. Therefore, under the notion that the Holy Spirit is not a person, we could say that, the Word of God, (it) died on the cross for our sins? Nope! It doesn't work. FWIW ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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CWO4GUNNER
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Its out of my hands now brother, but I will pray for you. ![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif)
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Isaiah
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I am not a JW -and I do believe Christ was the Word who was with God and was God -was God with us -and now is at the right hand of the Father. They have always coexisted and cannot be separate -they are never in disagreement and are the one true God -though the Word acts as the Father instructs.
God's spirit is holy. Mine is not.
However -when you lie to my spirit you lie to me -when you grieve my spirit you grieve me -
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth.....
..we are made in his image.... but....-HE -and HIS SPIRIT -are a whole lot more of everything in every way.
With his spirit he can speak without the necessity of vocal chords or even close proximity -he can say "let there be" something -and it is -without the necessity of using hands -as Christ withered the tree and healed people, etc.....
BY HIS SPIRIT he can do ANYTHING -such as causing a visible display like.....
Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
This is not blasphemy.
We know that the being who became Christ created all things under direction from the Father..
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
When it says in Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
This is HOW -not WHO!
Act 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
In the above we have capitalization which is not original, in a verse which describes God speaking by his spirit. Does the spirit call people -or the Father by his spirit????
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God
In the above we see more added capitalization -and a reiteration -a clarification -rather than a description of two separate things. The holy spirit coming upon one IS THE POWER OF THE HIGHEST OVERSHADOWING THEM. It explains EXACTLY what I mean -it does not prove otherwise!
These types of reiterations are common in the bible -separate words -same meaning and subject -such as....
2Ki 19:31 For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion: the zeal of the LORD of hosts shall do this.
Here we see Jerusalem and Zion -but they are one in the same out of which the remnamnt will escape -not separate places at all....as we read here.....
2Ch 5:2 Then Solomon assembled the elders of Israel, and all the heads of the tribes, the chief of the fathers of the children of Israel, unto Jerusalem, to bring up the ark of the covenant of the LORD out of the city of David, which is Zion.
Jerusalem -Zion -city of David -one in the same.
The "Holy Ghost(holy spirit)" and "the power of the Highest" -ONE IN THE SAME!
The holy spirit is this......
2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
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CHEWY
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What a discussion indeed. You claim that the baptism in the name of the Holy Spirit doesn't show personage. Where are we shown to be baptized in any other name but one of the three in the Trinity. We are not baptized in the name of Wormwood, yet the fact that the star has been named gives it seperateness from all of the other stars.
Luke 1:35 tells us, that "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest [Father God] will overshadow you, and of course Christ is the One born. Three different beings doing three different things.
Matt. 3:16,17 -same thing Jesus being baptized, the Father speaking from heaven, and the Holy Spirit descending like a dove.
Matt. 28:19 - already discussed.
2 Corinthians 13:14 - three unique references to three unique beings.
Acts 5:3,4 - Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit. You can only lie to a personal being. Verse 4 tells us clearly that the Holy Spirit is God. "You have not lied to men but to God."
Acts 13:2 - the Holy Spirit speaks. "Seperate to Me [capitalized] Barnabas..."
You can deny these scriptures indicating a seperate being all you want, but it ultimately boils down to what makes sense in the language, even if we can't fully understand the depth of the Trinity. The language is pretty clear in naming the Holy Spirit seperately from God the Father and yet gives Him [Holy Spirit] equal recognition with God.
Do you also have problems with accepting Christ's Godship? Are you a Jehovah's Witness?
I don't ask these things in an accusative or critical manner, it would just simply help to know what you do believe.
Chewy-
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CWO4GUNNER
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As the Apostle Paul warned Timothy there would be those with perverted doctrines from within and outside the church who come looking for the for those that are new and weak in understanding and easily carried away. For those of us that are overseers of Gods word revealed to us not by the flesh but by the Holy Spirit, it is our duty to rebuke them and their false doctrin.
So brother whoever you are, I rebuke you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and hand you over in order that you may be disciplined and learn not to blaspheme and teach false doctrine.
1 timothy 3-7 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work—which is by faith. The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk. They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.
1 timothy 18-20 Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.
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Isaiah
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Good point, but not proof of personhood -and certainly not clearly describing three beings.
Names are not only applied to persons.
Rev 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood...
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God...
and people spoke in the name of other gods which did not exist.
The following language also seems to suggest personhood of all three..
1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
...but then that would mean these three were also persons...
1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree(same word as "are" above) in one.
Remember there was distinction made between the baptism of John and of the holy spirit.
Before Christ came and died for our sins and the comforter was made widely available to those God called, baptism was for the remission of sins -which remained true -but afterward to cleanse the vessel which would then hold God's holy spirit.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
That's it -we simply cannot add a third person.
Anyway -I'm sure we won't convince each other. Just wanted to show that the belief in personhood of the spirit is not necessarily universal or even original -and we ought to really look into what we believe and why.
With so many different beliefs about pretty much every subject, it is inevitable that some will find themselves in less than desireable circumstances in the future. We choose our paths based on our beliefs -not every belief is right -and some seemingly bright paths lead to grim circumstances. Fortunately, God looks on the heart, and those who find themselves lost can look to him for guidance. Our own certainty does not define the truth. We can always retrace our steps, get on the right path, and be wiser for it.
God is right, men are learning.
Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
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CHEWY
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What a discussion you have going Isaiah. I have a question for you...
If the Holy Spirit isn't a seperate being in the Godhead, why are we instructed to be baptized in His name unilaterrally yet seperately along with the Father and the Son. [Matt. 28:19] In the Greek we have the conjunction "kai" seperating all three names which sends the direct message of equality in being, in power, and authority.
It reads clearly in all of the major translations and the two Greek compilations that are most commonly used the same....
...baptizing them in the NAME of the Father, And of the Son, And of the Holy Spirit[Ghost].
This could have easily been translated ...
in the name of the Father, and in the name of the Son, and in the name of the Holy Spirit.
[We use the same type grammar in English, the Greek did this before the English] The words "of the" directly connect the word "name" to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
It clearly gives three unique settings for three individual Beings.
I don't see Jesus commanding us to be baptized in the name of a device used by Himself or the Father. I understand this to be a command to be baptized in the name of the third person in the Godhead.
Chewy-
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Isaiah
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Not sure what you meant by that (but some confuse persecution by men with correction from God.)
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CWO4GUNNER
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And have you completely forgotten the divine word of appeal and encouragement in which you are reasoned with and addressed as sons? My son, do not think lightly or scorn to submit to the correction and discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage and give up and faint when you are reproved or corrected by Him; For the Lord corrects and disciplines everyone whom He loves, and He punishes, even scourges, every son whom He accepts and welcomes to His heart and cherishes. Hebrews 12:5-6
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Isaiah
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I do not consider myself "saved" until 1: I am a spirit.. and 2: I can no longer sin.
(...which only God can grant me...though I must put forth much effort...)
This can and will not happen while I am mortal.
I can say I am saved from the ignorance I once knew -the disregard for that which is holy, etc...but while there is a chance I may fall, I can not consider myself saved -not until I have endured to the end -falling and rising again many times -even backsliding then making progress -but finishing the race -and not until God has completely made me what I could never be alone.
1Co 9:22-27 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you. Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keepunder my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
I do understand the sincerity of some who -in translation wrote "Holy Spirit" rather than "holy spirit" -but the things on which the belief in personhood of the spirit are based do not stand to reason. David is capitalized in the greek -as in Jesus, etc...but not holy spirit, etc..etc..
Here in translation of the old testament, the capitalization suggests personhood -translated thus by men -due to preconception -some sincere -some perhaps persuaded by popular belief -or worse -in times when a belief not held by the many could cost you your life...or worse..
Isa 63:10 But they rebelled, and vexed his Holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
Now.... if you're going to add capitalization for the sake of reverence of the holy, should not the father be given the greater glory? as in.. "H"is holy spirit?
Written the former way, the spirit seems to be God's 'go to' guy -no disrespect intended -a person who is the go-between -between God and man -and the Father a mere consideration. But Christ is the intercessor. The spirit intercedes -but... Christ is the person -the spirit is the means. The belief in the personhood of the spirit takes due honor, reverence and consideration from the Son -and most importantly, the Father.
..but it was not written this way -it was translated this way...due to popular beliefs which post-date even Christ and the new testament church by hundreds of years.
I understand how difficult it is for those who have grown up with -or have been taught -other beliefs -to even consider anything else -especially when one thinks the thought might lead to the chance of "no forgiveness". I was not taught this belief -I did not grow up with it -quite the contrary -but I asked God with an open mind -and studied his word likewise -concerning his spirit.
God had it written...
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Know also that the world does not consider good deeds often -especially of those who speak of things inconvenient to the powers-that-be -
Christ created the worlds by order of the Father -but was crucified a blasphemer on the charge of challenging the worldly government of his day. "King of the Jews" was not his title -but his crime.
Be slow to speak -slow to anger -quick to understand -those who do right are quickly defamed in this world. Those who say sooth are rewarded -those who speak truth are often silenced by any means necessary.
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Michael Harrison
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Lots of people refer to Him as it. I used to, many years ago. But we learn as we go. I do not think that God condemns over this. I think that shakey souls are simply shaken a little over this. Let every man be convinced in his own heart.
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Michael Harrison
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Saved people are those who have repented of their sinful life (you said)??? But are they delivered? Or are they still in bondage? Is that what scripture says, that we are called unto bondage, but attitude will make the difference? There is something beyond attitude for all of us.
I think i am accurate in saying that almost any Christian alive lives in perpetual sin, not as though they are condemned to it. Therefore they would have to perpetually pray for forgiveness. Could this be what Paul meant when he said, "Pray without ceasing?" (I could say yes, or no.) But God has given everyone a way to escape! However, there are no takers. Everyone is comfortable with their condition. They love the darkness still, rather than the light, and would rather live in repenting, rather than rising above (or i should say being uplifted above, delivered out of).
This goes way beyond attitude. Attitude is just a work of the flesh. But attitude is justification enough to some, who think that it meets the requirement of Holiness. And they are satisfied, if they recognize this in another (by their definition), that each is in good standing - approved. Then they have a brotherhood. But what they think that they recognize is, while commendable, still short of the Glory of God, and what He will work in us if we allow.
That attitude is a work of the flesh is revealed in the fact that piousness and self righteousness, are fruits of it. Therefore we exalt above another, rather than, as scripture says, humble ourselves to one another, that we may exhort them unto holiness. Prayer changes things.
- Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
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CWO4GUNNER
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It would do well to compare the traits of saved people with those of the reprobate. Saved people are new creatures (2 Corinthians 5:17) who have repented of their sinful life (1 Thessalonians 1:9) and who bring forth the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22, 23). Their attitudes toward God, Christ, the Bible, and sin have changed, and this is manifested in their daily lives. They desire to do good works (Ephesians 2:10), love the brethren (1 John 3:14) and to keep themselves unspotted from the world (James 1:27). Oh sure, saved people fall short, but they will confess their sins (1 John 1:9) to maintain fellowship with God.
The reprobate on the other hand wants no real knowledge of God (Romans 1:28). Instead of living holy and bringing forth good works, their lifestyle is manifestly different from the saint. Paul says they are “… filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful” (Romans 1:29-31).
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Isaiah
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I am certainly not born again -because I am not yet a spirit....
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Also...
Blood is not a he -yet....
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Wisdom is not a she -yet...
Pro 1:20 Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
The creation is not a he -yet...
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
We certainly know stones aren't persons -yet..
Luk 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
It's a literary device called personification -it is used to impart understanding -but is not always effective due to the imperfection of our human languages...
Fortunately, God -by his spirit -by which he once confused man's speech at Babel -will give us a pure language -which will leave no room for misunderstanding.....
Zep 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.
I am in no way blaspheming the holy spirit -It is simply not a he.
"that is, whoever intentionally comes short of the reverence due the Holy Spirit"
-be careful of adding to his words and their meaning....
God is due reverence and worship -and I thank him for the gift of his holy spirit every day.
I speak not against the spirit. It is a wonderful gift -without it man cannot please God.
this is not blasphemy.
G987
βλασφημέω
blasphēmeō
blas-fay-meh'-o
From G989; to vilify; specifically to speak impiously: - (speak) blaspheme (-er, -mously, -my), defame, rail on, revile, speak evil.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
This blasphemy is speaking of those who have repented -been baptized -and -at the laying on of hands and decision of God -received the holy spirit wihtin them -then wholly rejected it.
Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
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WildB
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The Holy Spirit is a person or "HE" could not be grieved.
"if" you think still think him a "it" than you are not born agan.
The Spirit of Truth can only be understood by a new creature in Christ.
--------------------
That is all.....
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Michael Harrison
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Coincidence? I have taken notice that you are from Bullhead City! Az. ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif) ![[pound]](graemlins/pound.gif)
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CWO4GUNNER
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You are treading on very dangerous ground
WARNING!
Matthew 12:31-32 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy (every evil, abusive, injurious speaking, or indignity against sacred things) can be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not and cannot be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Spirit, the Holy One, will not be forgiven, either in this world and age or in the world and age to come.
Luke 12:10 And everyone who makes a statement or speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit [that is, whoever intentionally comes short of the reverence due the Holy Spirit], it will not be forgiven him [for him there is no forgiveness].
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Michael Harrison
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Ouch Isaiah! I wish i could hear you say Him! ![[angel3]](graemlins/angel3.gif)
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Isaiah
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Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
It is true we do not see Christ now in the flesh or in his glory -but not believing the spirit is a person is not resisting it -it is understanding that Christ comes to those who have it - by it. Much like...
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison
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CWO4GUNNER
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The person of the Holy Spirit is an essential part of the triune God. In fact The Spirit cannot be separated or available to us unless Jesus is with the Father as part of the Godhead. It was absolutely essential that Jesus leave this word and return so that the Person of the Holy Spirit could come down and be available to us. Anyone that does not believe this is in danger of grieving the Holy Spirit and becoming incapable of understanding the truth or becoming a child of God.
John 16:5-10 “But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more”
Acts 7:51 “You stubborn people! You are heathen at heart and deaf to the truth. Must you forever resist the Holy Spirit? That’s what your ancestors did, and so do you!”
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Michael Harrison
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When I read the first four lines, I feel like we are in strong agreement! Is that what you believe? However, when I read this line I am taken aback:
Your Quote) "If such had not prevailed and our translations read "it" rather than "he" where they could -would you still believe as you do?"
For, I still see the Spirit is a reference to Him, therefore, the proper address of Him would be clear. Only if the Spirit was like clothing that He wore, would one address the spirit Him as it. So, while I am in quite strong agreement with the first four opening sentences, I still view the Spirit as Him, insomuch as the Spirit is Him in the broader spectrum, or sense.
This really goes beyond the translation of pronouns. Other verses lend Him this personification, which is stronger than metaphoric association. While it seems like we differ mildly, it still seems that we solidly agree? Go figure!
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Isaiah
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Are you saying that the holy spirit can be everywhere -but Christ can't?
Are you saying a separate person can be in all of us -but Christ and the Father are not capable of such?
Does the spirit fill a sort of secretarial role because the Father and Son are otherwise busied?
Does a separate being from the Father and Son dwell in us -or do the Father and Son live in us by the spirit -which is not a separate person?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity
The trinty was not a new testament church belief -but worked its way into popularity along with Christmas(Jeremiah 10), Easter (Ishtar -chief goddess of the Babylonian mystery religion)and the "Lord's day" (sunday) -which replaced the Sabbath and the holy days kept by Christ, the apostles and new testament church for hundreds of years before being stamped out by persecution -along with the correct understanding of the spirit.
THE COUNCIL OF LAODICEA IN PHRYGIA PACATIANA 364 A.D.
CANON XXIX.
CHRISTIANS must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.
Before this...
"The emperor was not then a Christian, but he was favorably disposed toward Christianity, and he wanted this rapidly growing religion to support peace within the empire. Constantine thought that an official council could settle the matter once and for all. So he called a meeting in the year 325 at the city of Nicea, in Asia Minor near Constantinople.....
The Holy Spirit also came under discussion. The Nicene council had merely said that "we believe in the Holy Spirit," without saying anything about who or what the Spirit is. Arius had taught that the Holy Spirit was a created spirit being; bishops such as Athanasius of Alexandria made it clear that the Holy Spirit is divine in the same way that the Son is.
Council of Constantinople
Eventually, Theodosius became emperor, and the council of Constantinople was called in 381. Theodosius expelled the Arian supporters, and Nicene bishops were appointed. The council agreed that Jesus is fully divine, eternal, not created. They accepted the divinity of the Holy Spirit. They taught that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, yet there is only one God--one God in three Persona.* They did not explain how this is so -- they just said that it is so. They felt compelled by Scripture to come to this conclusion."
from this eventually came....
"We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son). With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets."
What do you think of the preceding statement?
If such had not prevailed and our translations read "it" rather than "he" where they could -would you still believe as you do?
parts of above from: http://www.christianodyssey.org/history/nicene.htm
I realize I may be the only one visiting this site who believes as I do, so I do appreciate your patience -I don't mean to be an annoyance, but to consider all aspects of a subject, and challenge others to do so for their benefit.
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
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Michael Harrison
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Joh 16:23 "And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you."
If you ask the Father from abiding within Jesus name, He will give it to you. The important thing here is that the name of Jesus is not like a key which you keep in your pocket. Nor is it like a mumbo jumbo, open sesame type expression that magically opens the window of Heaven. The name of Jesus is exactly that: a name. You need a name in order to reference someone, and recognize them, in this case, the source. So the name is given for a frame of reference so that He can describe how something is, to us about Himself.
Jesus is the power of God by whom we may desire of God that which we seek. That is that by His Spirit whom He has placed within we can ask, rather than by mumbo jumbo. (Else how could Jesus be everywhere at once?) Therefore we should know who He is to us relationally, that we might know the benefit. In other words, we must know how to be in Him (by way of His being in us), before we can effectively ask anything of the Father.
![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Luk 11:13 "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit (holy spirit)to them that ask him?"
The way we know Him is by the Holy Spirit. Jesus, by dying on the cross made it possible for us to know Him (not about Him, Newspapers can do that). He is the link between us and God through which the Spirit can come into us, and this by the Blood. In other words, He gives us of Himself, to constitute our life. By His life (which is the real way of using His name) we request of God! He recognizes us because we are made ok by the very life of Jesus. We are in Him through faith, and surrender.
If we have not His life within us we are merely distant observers, or perhaps we are just secret admirers. There is no warmth or consolation in that, for we are not one with the conqueror. We are not in the Ark, therefore we go nowhere, and fast! Our wheels turn, but the cart don't roll!
Ceremony and knowledge do not gain us an entrance. Being born of His life does. That is what it means when the Holy Spirit resides in us. For it is then that we are born again from above.
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Isaiah
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Mat 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Joh 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Joh 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
Joh 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit (holy spirit)to them that ask him?
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Michael Harrison
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Whew! isaiah. Weel, I was thinking, and it came to me. So lemme relate it to ya in the form of a question:
Q Truth is a person? As you begin to look at this, you will see some similarity to what you are hypothesizing about the Holy Spirit. (Is the Holy Spirit a person?) Ok! I will state unequivocally that truth is a person. For scripture says, "I AM the way, the truth, and the life." Therefore, Truth is a person. How so? Jesus says that He is the truth! Truth and person cannot be separated one from another. This is something profound to comprehend.
But truth is something that we think that we can have. Truth is something that we think that we can understand. However, Jesus says that He is the truth. Therefore, truth is not something separate from the person that He is. Therefore, relationship becomes very 'personal', or it doesn’t become at all. For without the person, you are without the truth. He is the embodiment of the truth.
Everybody thinks that what they have by way of understanding , through the reading of scripture, and observing something about the works of God, that they have at least partial, if not (in some people's mind) full understanding of the truth. However we have observed that knowing something about someone, in particular, about Christ, does not make them a participant. (It may make them a denomination.) Yet knowledge of something seems to make some feel completely qualified. It makes them to think that they are accepted in the beloved, qualified to be in His company, closer to Him. It couldn’t be further from the truth.
Oh, It works that way in the world, knowledge of something. Let’s say that you know something about how to make, or do a process, or thing, then you are qualified to be employed in the company of someone who does this! Hence the name: That is why it is called a company! But knowing about Jesus does not make you anything by your knowledge, no matter how much of it you think that you have! Therefore, there must be something deeper. This is why scripture says to dig deeper. It is the parable of the Pearl of Great Price! One must search out the truth until they know what it means to understand.
Understanding is ‘by’ the Spirit, not by analysis. In short, the conclusion of our deliberate analysis may not be the realization of the truth; and these scriptures, related in these immediate posts, trick the mind by their structuring. It simply is a case of, “Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. “(Mat 13:13) (Even if they try!)
Here is why Paul said that we are to be transformed by the renewing of our mind. And for the safety of everyone involved, renewing of the mind is not something that we can ‘do’, but allow to be ‘done’, (an act of faith in Him) that we may be edified unto the understanding of the truth! So it comes back to: understanding is literally by the Spirit. Let me again go to the fact that the Spirit is a person, based on the fact that ‘truth’ IS a person.
So it boils down to, if you are ‘in’, then you understand. If you are not, you can analyze, and dissect, and still not come to the proper conclusion. It is a matter of life (or being separate). You cannot be ‘separate’ from Him and understand by natural means. The Spirit that came upon the Apostles was an extension of God Himself. And the Apostles ministered by the Spirit of God. It is plain and simply the Vine and the Branch illustration of manifestation of the works of God by the sap of the Vine, which was the Holy Spirit of God.
That we do not see the Spirit as a personality of God is because He is the link to our Father, who is in Jesus. The Father is the head. But in fact, Jesus is the image of the invisible God for the purpose of our focus and attention. You will not, if you want something from me, talk to my body. Yet my body is totally part of my being, and in fact you do talk to my body, which is the link to my understanding, by way of my physical hearing.
It cannot be wrong to worship the Holy Spirit, but you typically aim for the understanding, which is the head, who the Father is; but Jesus is our intermediary. So our attention goes to Him, by design.
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Isaiah
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The following is from a link on top of this page at the time of this writing [words in()mine but from definitions of translated words and without unnecessary capitalization]
"A: The Holy Spirit is a real person who came to reside within Jesus Christ's true followers after Jesus rose from the dead and ascended to heaven (Acts 2). Jesus told His apostles...
"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper(helper), that He(it)may be with you forever; the Spirit(spirit) of truth, whom(which) the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him(it) or know Him(it), but you know Him(it) because He(it) abides with you, and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you." (John 14:16-18)
Here they say it is a "real person" who came to reside in Jesus' true followers, etc..
Yet the last line states "I will come to you" -that is ...Jesus would come to them.
It really does make a difference -did Christ preach to the spirits in prison by the spirit -or did he send the "Spirit" to do an errand?
Are we to have God's own spirit in us -or another "real person"?
http://www.godonthe.net/HolySpirit/sperson.htm
In this link -some interesting points are made..
It says if the spirit is a God-being, it should be worshipped -if not, it should not.
It says that the idea that the holy spirit can be controlled by a person as a power is heathen -whereas a separate God-being -to whom one would submit -working in one -is Christian.
I do not believe the spirit should be worshipped!
Christ says worship the Father -the Father says the Son is worthy of honor, glory and blessing -but even Christ said...Mar 10:18 "And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."
This he spoke of the Father alone -not the Father and another.
I do believe men can submit to God and wield his spirit when he allows it -such as when the apostles were able to heal, etc...
I was just listening to a preacher on the radio who said that being born again is when the spirit begins to dwell in one -and that in twenty or so years "He has not once left my body" in all that time.
It is very important to distinguish whether God and so Christ dwell in you by the spirit -or whether a being separate from the Father and Son dwells in you which is capable of independent thought and action.
Worshipping such IS sin -IS having a God before God. This man's focus throughout the sermon was how important it was to have this third being in your body -he spoke little of Christ or the Father.
This misunderstanding can very well make one unable to understand other truths, as they believe they have something that is actually nonexistent -it is worthless and worse -it gets in the way of the truth! It is a counterfeit!
Joh 4:21-24 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
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Michael Harrison
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But by the Spirit we have discernment, if we are abiding! I think that there is little fear of being taken advantage of by an unclean spirit unless we are in deep sin.
Oh, and speaking to dead people, praying to Mary, all of these things would, i agree, be profoundly erroneous!
Yes! Now that i have re-read your post, one speaking to those would be woefully susceptible to decption.
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Isaiah
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I can sorta deal with that.
My point was that problems can arise due to misunderstanding.
For instance.. Christ told us that we are to pray to the Father in his name. If we lose this focus it is an inroad for many errors -some pray to Mary, some to various saints, some perhaps TO the holy spirit. Strictly biblically speaking, Mary and all our biblical heroes are dead -awaiting resurrection (Joh 3:13, Act 2:34, 1Ki 2:10, 1Th 4:13-16)-and the spirit has no mind of its own to comprehend -but is the means by which our thoughts are able to be known by the Father and Christ. Those who believe dead persons or things without the ability to comprehend are speaking to them are vulnerable to deception -and can even be vulnerable to speaking to a spirit which would take advantage of such a misunderstanding.
One misunderstood point is also often used to confirm another.
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Michael Harrison
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Ok isaiah, thas fine! However, the Spirit is an extension of God, so to be, still God. It really is like saying, is He one, or is He three? We can only go so far with that. I would say that he is not a person in the sense that Jesus and the Father is, yet, having so said, he nevertheless is. We just don't seem to relate to Him that way. The reason why is that Jesus was manifest to take away our sins, and it is through Him that we have access to God. Therefore we see Him more as a person because of the relational design. Actually, the Father seems remote, yet Jesus said He and the Father were one. That makes the Father very close, yet we don't discern that!
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Isaiah
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I do not believe that if you have the spirit of God you know HIM (the spirit as a person)-but rather when you have God's spirit you know the Father and so the Son, also. I do not believe the spirit is who you know -but how.
So -When God said "Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."
-It was the Father and the Word conversing -as the spirit is not a person to be consulted or spoken to -or to receive answers from -even agreement -having no mental processes -but when the Lord went and confused their speech -it was BY the spirit -as created all in the beginning he then instantly altered.
It is said that three bear record in heaven -and this seems to suggest personhood of the spirit -but it also says 1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
Also -in the words of Christ quoted in John 14 -the translation says "he" "whom", etc...Christ did not say these words -these words clearly suggest personhood -whereas the words from which they were derived do not.
"WHOM"
=G3739
́ς, ἥ, ὅ
hos, hē, ho, hos, hay, ho
Probably a primary word (or perhaps a form of the article G3588); the relative (sometimes demonstrative) pronoun, who, which, what, that: - one, (an-, the) other, some, that, what, which, who (-m, -se), etc. See also G3757.
G3757 οὗ hou hoo
Genitive case of G3739 as adverb; at which place, that is, where: - where (-in), whither ([-soever]).
etc....
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Michael Harrison
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To be a person means to have personality, and the ability to be personal! This implies relationship. Inanimate objects ('its') do not have personality, therefore, neither can they have relationship with a personality. Tje Spirit is not inanimate. Spirit implies some type of life.
Our spirits have life, but it is not His life. Our spirits are dead, even if they seem to live. They are dead because they are cut off from Him since Adam. His Spirit is Life! If we truly have His Spirit, we have life. We live by Him, by His life. Therefore, His Spirit must be in us to affect this.
- "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." Joh 6:63 [His words are Spirit, so the Spirit in you, if you have received Him, is by His word, and is His word. Here you have two different things that are the same difference.]
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Rom 8:2)[Here is a good question! Is Christ in the Spirit, or is the Spirit in Christ? I will go with the second, for the door was not opened to receive the Spirit, except through His words. But the Spirit of Christ is my freedom from sin and separation.]
"And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit [inside our soul] is life because of righteousness." (Rom 8:10)
"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter [self determined doing], but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." (2Co 3:6) [The Spirit is life, is a person, is the person of life.]
"For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption [seweth to doing to accomplish]; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." (Gal 6:8)
"And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them." (Rev 11:11)
Therefore, the spirit brings to us, or gives to us life, not just some kind of power, but the power of life! The Spirit IS life. The power and the gifts are in and of the life. Without the life, you might as well read comic books, like i did when i was in school (instead of studying). There you see power (imaginary however), but which is nevertheless corrupt even if the hero's are portrayed as being the good guys.
To be a person means to have personality, and the ability to be personal with someone! The Spirit of God is the most personal person that can be. Therefore:
- "And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest." (Heb 8:11)
For, if you have the Spirit of God, then you know Him, and you are known of Him. This is personality.
Otherwise you will see the spirit as merely a manifestation of power; therefore, as some kind of thing that happens, rather than a person who is inseparable from the manifestation.
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Isaiah
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I do not believe one must understand what the spirit is for it to be with one -but being in one is a different story. God's spirit can be with one without them even realizing it. However -when God decides to put his spirit within one, it is a great responsibility.
Those who received the spirit at the pentecost
of Acts 2 -which was the when the comforter was first given to many -may not have all understood it completely -but it was explained to them...Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit (the comforter -capitalization?) upon all flesh... that it was God's spirit -this in no way suggests a separate person -nor does anything else -except capitalization and personification in our translations which was not original. The trinity was not a new testament church belief -except if we confuse the church with those who persecuted them and replaced them. Not all who believe they have the spirit have the spirit. Nor did any there that day... who were not prepared by God...receive it. Repentance -baptism -the laying on of hands -all to precede the giving of the gift of the spirit -mean nothing if God sees insincerity or unpreparedness in one. It is his decision who receives it, but part of being prepared is understanding it well enough.
Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost(holy spirit), And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Eternal life is at stake! If one does not understand it well enough for it not to be a danger -they will certainly not receive it. Any misunderstanding can and will be used by Satan against men.
Do you believe that some can believe they have the spirit -and not have it? Do you not believe it can be a snare? Do you believe that some who think they have it will be surprised when God tells them he never knew them? Do you believe men can be deceived by Satan transforming himself into an angel of light? Even sincere people?
There is one holy spirit. Our spirits are "separate" because we are not as God. Our spiritual sins cut us off from him. The Father and Christ are spirits -and have spirits -yes -by that I mean the Son can have independent thought from the Father -though not in disagreement-he has a mind of his own -he is creative -not a robot -but they share the same spirit by which they agree and act -as we can also share the same spirit -which allows us to begin to think as God -understand as God -and act as God.
It is -as defined in the bible...
2Ti 1:6-7 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
I believe oneinchrist may well have received an answer from God -and if he was truly sincere -I believe it 100 percent -and that from God BY the spirit -even if an angel -even angels act by his spirit and he created them by his spirit -and the answer is 100 percent true -though the rest I believe to be his perception -not part of the answer...
-but do you believe everyone who hears a voice and believes it to be the holy spirit -a separate person -are correct?
Do you believe everyone who believes they have received specific answers from God are correct?
Many have believed falsely about God and the spirit -about answered prayer -with very grave results.
I'm not sure what you meant -but one has the spirit or not -there is no measure -
Joh 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the spirit by measure (unto him).
-though -true -one will not bear as much fruit if they resist the spirit.
I still see no proof or necessity for a separate person.
Let's say you are one day in the kingdom of God -Let's say you are able to address the Father and the Son as a persons -speaking to them -or they to you -do you believe you will be able to address the "Holy Spirit" likewise? Do you believe "he" will be there -a separate person with a separate spirit body?
I believe the Son -Christ -could create something wonderful the Father has not seen -and make him smile (if the Father allows such surprises)-that he is creative and individual -though one with God and never in disagreement -do you believe the "holy spirit" has such capability? If not -how do you define "person"?
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Michael Harrison
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Yes, unequivocally! I didn’t understand a thing about Him when I received Him as Savoir. Even what I thought I knew after a season of knowing Him wasn’t anywhere near to understanding. It is not a requirement to understand, in order to receive, and if one waits until they do, Lord have mercy. That one is lost!
Quote Isaiah: “So -though spirits -they have bodies which are spirit -and have a spirit -just as man has a body and a spirit -but is flesh and his spirit has not the scope and power of God's spirit.”
This is very revealing! It sounds like you are saying spirits, plural. There is one Spirit. You can find this in the epistles. We are joined - one spirit – when we become His. Now man apart from God, has a spirit, but it is essentially dead. Therefore, from man to man, there are spirits. Nevertheless, when the heart shall turn to God, our Spirit is filled with His spirit, joining us to God by His one Spirit, and to each other by the same. (That makes us as near to Him as can be, and Him near to us simultaneously; because of the strength of the word ‘join’.) Clearly, man receives God’s Spirit in himself; therefore being of the same Spirit, and then by His Spirit, the scope and power which is of God, is ours. Note: It is not as though He is subject to us; rather we are subject to Him, to His Spirit. But by His Spirit we are ‘sons’, apart from which we would be bastards.
“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” (Rom 8:9)
Do you see how that in one sentence he refers to the Spirit of God, and then the Spirit of Christ? They are the same, but different, but the same. It is no accident that he wrote it this way as though referring to a separate Spirit, but not so. It is the same Spirit. (He is the same Spirit.)
“But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit [by God] that dwelleth in you.” (Rom 8:11 ) Does this need explaining? It is redundant in that it expresses twice about the Spirit that raised up Jesus, and then says He shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit [by the presence of His Spirit in you]. It is the one Spirit of God referred to. Not two or more!
“And if Christ be in you, the body is [eventually] dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness” (Rom 8:10)
Here it says that Christ is ‘in’ you. Yet you have stoned Him, or placed Him on the cross by unbelief if you do not believe. That is most frightening to consider for anyone, especially for one’s self, even for the church at large, and throughout history. But note that the Spirit, which is man’s, or was before God replaced man’s spirit with His own, is now alive! Righteousness, which is by the Spirit of God, or IS (plain and simple) the Spirit of God, replaces man’s spirit, so that he is now alive – by God, and now you know where that slang expression came from, (By God). Man is literally ‘joined’ to God by His Spirit being in him, and the power of God that makes us sons, is in us! Amen!
Now, understanding of the Spirit came with the New Dispensation. They did not understand Him in the Old Testament. For this reason, you cannot understand the OT without the new, though many would have you to believe that it is the other way around.
“Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:” (1Pe 1:10)
“Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. “(1Pe 1:11)
“Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. “(1Pe 1:12)
I will tell you: Understanding is by the Spirit, and self study or effort will not accomplish it. All good things come from above. You have to ask and seek. He gives us His understanding, and anything less is completely dangerous.
Now if you have a problem with that: Consider, when we form an opinion, we can do so apart from His reality. What is worse, we can stick to it like the white knuckled clutch of a dead man’s fist, on a sky high flag pole which is the only thing to grab to keep one from falling to his death. Many people are that way. It is the whole denomination thing. And concerning getting His understanding:
“But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.” (Heb 11:6)
I tell you that the Spirit of God joins himself to man through the, or thanks to, and through the Blood of the Lamb. I tell you as well that the measure of the Spirit of God is in proportion of faith that man exhibits, and God literally becomes our life – not what our life is about.
Think about it!
This is difficult to consider for some, who want to live ‘for’ Him. They keep Him at a distance by supposing that they must ceremoniously recognize Him, supposing that this merits His recognition: therefore, they benefit. But in giving us of His Spirit, He is imparting life to us. We live by Him, and unto Him, which is very different.
We are sons.
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Isaiah
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I do believe God is a spirit -and Christ is a spirit -as we may one day be spirits.
Phi 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
So -though spirits -they have bodies which are spirit -and have a spirit -just as man has a body and a spirit -but is flesh and his spirit has not the scope and power of God's spirit.
We may think, feel and know with our spirits -but not the things of God. We do not act by our spirits -our intent must affect the world through our flesh -whereas God is able to affect things of which he is not in close proximity -he has the ability -through his spirit and spirit body -to do any thing he wills -anywhere -anytime -limited only by his own word.
When one has God's spirit with, then in them, they are then able to begin to know, think and feel as God does -and even -should they be granted such gifts -to affect things in the physical worl without the use of their physical body -just as Christ withered the tree and the apostles healed, etc.... though when we are spirits in body -all will have this ability.
I understand God is eternal -that the Father and Word have existed always -and are one -and have always had their spirit -but I was referring to when people began to believe the spirit was a separate person -it has not always been so -and you might find it began as the false church was also changing other core beliefs to fit the political will of the times.
As for the verses which say the spirit is a he listed above -those are they which I referred to -as the words for "he" and "whom" are not necessarily translated so -but also mean "it" and "which".
Also -while God may have answered your prayer with the response you spoke of -even Christ spoke of himself not in the first person -rather than saying "I need a place to sleep", he said
Mat 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
and....
Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Also very important to note is that Christ did not exalt himself -he exalted the Father -It may seem trivial -but it is not... When we pray, we are told -by Christ himself -to pray to the FATHER -in the name of the Son.
(I appreciate your responses..
though I seem to be the only one here with this viewpoint, many believe similarly.
Note-though beliefs are sometimes mixed, I have noticed that many who do not believe in the trintiy also believe we must keep all ten commandments, and some even the holy days Christ and the early church kept. What are your views on those issues?)
I do not believe I am making this too complicated -nor would I think God would think so.
The spirit of God is something that a God-called believer should eventually have IN THEM. I believe it is extremely important to understand it -as a misunderstanding of this issue gives much place to Satan -even making it possible to have the wrong spirit in one. Do you believe that God would give such an important thing to one who did not first understand it?
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Michael Harrison
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Wow Isaiah. Those are interesting questions! Good for you for analyzing it, however don’t come to a wrong conclusion.
Quote isaiah: Was God, the Father, speaking? Is Christ the son of the holy spirit? Is the capitalization of Spirit original?
Starting here: Christ is the Son of the Father. And this is stated this way in scripture for the sake of our understanding. However, since God is Spirit, you could say what you said here. It makes it difficult to understand stated that way though. The reason we have the Father, is because He IS. He created all things. He did so by His word. Jesus is His word manifest in the flesh, for our comfort and faith.
That He created all things by His spoken word, which Jesus is, is also accompanied by the fact that He created all things with, or by His Spirit. Jesus, however, is the word He spoke, and the Spirit is the vehicle of delivery, or manifestation, Jesus being the spoken authorization, the Spirit the manifestation.
It really gets difficult to separate the three sometimes, but until God the Father speaks something to be, i.e. makes a command, nothing happens. However, when He does speak, it is by Jesus, and when you see a reference to the Spirit in scripture, you are seeing something that He, God the Father, spoke. You are seeing the manifestation of the action or movement of what He spoke with the Spirit as label. In other words it is God in both motion, and manifestation for us to see, hear and understand.
Quote Isaiah: Could you explain exactly what you think this means? What was the spirit's part in this -and why does it require that it be a he?
This goes back to my posted scripture quote: “God is Spirit, and they who worship Him must do so in Spirit and in truth.” God is Spirit. It is just that simple! God is a He, therefore, God the Spirit is a he, not an it. He is living, breathing, and moving, therefore animate, and alive. It, you will recall from grammar, is a pronoun of neutral gender. It refers to something inanimate, like a desk. Though a desk does something, it is passive by way of use. It does not initiate or perform anything of its own. It receives the action. But God’s Spirit (being His very person) performs action (action of being is His first action (I AM)).
Finally, God is Spirit, therefore a person. Any reference to the Holy Spirit is only an indirect reference to God the Father, the whole. (We cannot know Him but by Jesus.) The concept of three is just to provide a different way of looking at His operation, or operating. We call it manifestation. So if He says that ‘we are one’ you are supposed to put one, and one, and one together and come up with one. For in mathematics the whole is not greater than the sum of its parts. It is not for us to argue why He didn’t say ‘I and my Father are two thirds’. We will have to ask Him when we get home! I am sure that He will just say though, that we were just making it unnecessarily complicated.
Quote Isaiah: Also -when did the idea of the personhood of the holy spirit begin -and why(historically)?
I AM! He has no beginning. And He manifests Jesus to us, by the Holy Spirit, else we would be separate from Him and on our own.
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oneinchrist
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Hi Isaiah,
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgement:
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
All things that the Father hath are mine; therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Isaiah, these are the words of Christ showing the "Comforter" to be a he. If being a "he" or "him" is what you consider to constitute "separate personhood" then I guess you have your answer.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Isaiah
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I have no idea what you meant there -there are those who seek demonic power and knowledge -and receive it -it's even recorded in scripture -not saying you were such -anyway -was referring to the guy who heard the voice -not that he was such -but -we can pray sincerely -but the devil does not cease trying to deceive us... a deep study into the origins of the belief is a good idea... many speak of a great false church -but do not realize this doctrine was not held by the early church - or any ...before what became that church adopted it -and persecuted them ... so we have some now who reject this church -but do not understand how much of their teaching they hold to be true... anyway...
some questions to ponder...
Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Was God, the Father, speaking? Is Christ the son of the holy spirit? Is the capitalization of Spirit original?
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Could you explain exactly what you think this means? What was the spirit's part in this -and why does it require that it be a he?
Also -when did the idea of the personhood of the holy spirit begin -and why(historically)?
Can you prove the personhood of the spirit biblically -other than referring to personification -which is used with inanimate objects in the bible, also -and without referring to language and capitalization -suggesting personhood -which was not present before translation?
Why did Christ say he and his Father are one -not two thirds? Why did NOT John say 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Holy Spirit'????
Finally -honestly -why do you -personally -believe the spirit is a person?
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
Ouch indeed!
2Th 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2Co 11:13-15 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Oh, don't be reediculous.
Also, whether three, or one, both are true, and there is really no sense in dissecting it for argument's sake. It only confuses. However on this note, concerning whether the Spirit is God, you are ignoring that the Spirit came upon the prophets of old, including David. But in the new dispensation He is in us, and just these two simple passages terminate all arguement with finality:
"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." (Joh 4:24)[That is, by His Spirit within us we must worship Him] A N D:
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:" (Col 1:15)
It stands to reason that if Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the part that cannot be seen is Spirit; Therefore God the person, ours through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(Gal 4:7) "Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ."
"And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. "Gal 4:6"
For by His Spirit Jesus is manifest to us in our hearts crying my father, my father, God you are my father!
(And oneinc, different subject slightly, we had this conversation. I asked, when you were saved, did you pray for the Holy Spirit, or for Jesus to come into your heart? The heart was created for Jesus. Idolatry is when someone, or something besides Him is there, making the first commandment of no effect.)
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