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Topic: Man is not responsible for his own repentance
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Isaiah
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posted
An excellent point -many read the bible and do not understand God's purpose and attitude behind much of what he does. It can be difficult to understand how his actions translate to his being "love". What he does can seem cruel and harsh -even arrogant -unless one sees the whole picture. Some examples I have heard from people are of... Pharaoh -Lot's wife -Job -The poor guy who lost his footing, touched the ark, and died -Elisha and the she-bear rending the kids who made fun of him -just to name a few.
Understanding his attitude and reasoning is very important. It is also important to understand his capabilities -that he is able to raise all who have died, and wipe every tear from our eyes once we learn what we need to learn. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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oneinchrist
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I guess that the point that I have been trying to stress is that I do not believe that God glorifies Himself for the sake of glorifying Himself. He doesn't exercise display of His power just so that He can show it off proving to us that He is God. There is purpose behind what He does and it always has to do with His Holiness, righteous judgement, and loving character. He does all things with the desire that men do come to acknowledge Him, turn from their wickedness, and turn to Him in faith.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Isaiah
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Right -which is why I wrote
Because God is wise enough to know what is in the best interest of his harvest -and he tends it with care -any information is powerful -and some are not yet ready to know -and would only trample his pearls underfoot, etc... which would not help anyone. This is not to say such are pigs -just that they don't know to value pearls -yet.
The purpose behind ALL of this present trouble-the WHOLE schindig -is that we come to the knowledge that God is God.
Isa 45:6-7 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (though this takes a bit of understanding)
We can't just be told -we have to see it proven beyond doubt. This is specifically why God hardened Pharaoh's heart....
Exo 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. And they did so.
Yes -it was out of Love -but love even for the Egyptians and Pharaoh -because we must know God is God before we are ready for the rest.
We are his harvest. We are not our own. He does what pleases him -which happens to be bringing us to glory -this is not vainglory.
In Job we see that it was God who brought up the subject of Job's righteousness to Satan -and through the things which he allowed Satan to do, he further perfected Job and made a point to Satan.
Do we think that God could not have foreseen that some -being inexperienced but being creative beings -would turn to evil? Did he not plan for this eventuality? Did he not give the creation over to futility for a purpose? -and if such pleases him, it is not empty glory ...he declared his glory to Job while Job was in quite a sad state, but every word he said was true and it is important we see him as he is.
Job 38:2-7 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
This could be seen as vanity -but in order for there to BE ORDER -we must see him for what he is, and ourselves for what we are in relation.
Of Christ it was written beforehand....
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
God planned, and is executing, the process by which we can become the sons of God -even the brethren of Christ, the firstborn -and by which the whole creation will be redeemed from futility and decay. During this process, he lets us think things in our minds, puts things in our minds, takes things out ...lets us do things, makes us do things, keeps us from doing things.
We are his to do with as he pleases... It is infinitely fortunate for us that it pleases him to reproduce himself in us.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:19 For the creation is eagerly waiting for God to reveal his children,
Rom 8:20 because the creation was subjected to frustration, though not by its own choice. The one who subjected it did so in the hope
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself would also be set free from slavery to decay in order to share the glorious freedom of God's children.
Rom 8:22 For we know that all creation has been groaning with the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.(ISV)
that means the whole universe...
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
(I know I paste that alot, but it's just so cool)
![[hyper]](graemlins/hyper.gif)
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oneinchrist
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Hi Isaiah,
I do think we need to be a little careful with the extent to which we depict God to be One who is in it for Himself. God does not vainglorify Himself. What He does He does because He loves us. From what I have noticed in scripture...... those whose eyes are darkened and ears are closed are those who have typically been callous towards God for a long time. Pharaoh would be a great example. Many people like to quote the "hardening of pharaoh's heart" to make a point in support of their theological position. I do not believe that God hardened his heart primarily to glorify Himself. Consider this verse in the book of Exodus............it shows the Lord's true intent...............
Exodus 6:1 Then the Lord said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land.
You see here in the above verse. This shows God's intent for the hardening of Pharoah's heart(which by the way was already extremely prideful and callous towards God as he took delight in the opression of the Israelites). God's desire was to free His people. What is the difference today? His desire is to free us from the bondage of sin. Please people listen to me......God does not vainglorify Himself. Please understand that "to glorify", as in the Father glorifying the Son and the Son glorifying the Father is not the same thing as what it means to "vainglorify". There is a huge difference. The Lord does not harden a heart just for the sake of hardening their heart and glofifying Himself.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Isaiah
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True -God can not be blamed -period! ...but he is wise about revealing himself -and actually does keep some 'in the dark' -so to speak -until it is wise to do otherwise.
Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
Joh 12:35-40 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore THEY COULD NOT BELIEVE, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Why?
Because God is wise enough to know what is in the best interest of his harvest -and he tends it with care -any information is powerful -and some are not yet ready to know -and would only trample his pearls underfoot, etc... which would not help anyone. This is not to say such are pigs -just that they don't know to value pearls -yet.
1Co 15:22-26 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
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oneinchrist
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Hi Chewy,
Yes I agree that a person's heart needs to be changed before they repent........ and one of the points that I have been trying to make is...... if the gospel message is'nt enough to change the hearts of men, then what will? People that do not repent are not people that God does not want to save, they are people that reject the gospel message. They make that choice, and God cannot be blamed for their unbelief.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Isaiah
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True -God might 'zap' -but man is still responsible to repent -if it were not our responsibility it would be quite silly for him to punish some or even correct some -though God can and has kept some from doing certain things -overriding their will....
...but no man can can come to God except God first calls them to do so. Repentance to God is different than simply changing an action. One can not believe in God, yet see the effects of certain actions -be sorrowful -and change or avoid such actions. Repentance is TO GOD of SIN -disobedience to HIS LAW -and God initiates it. Generally, he initiated it by setting the laws before us -individually, he initiates any true repentance TOWARD HIM -by working directly with our heart/mind/spirit -whatever you want to call it.
To sum it up -God calls us to repent toward him -we are responsible to repent to the best of our knowledge and ability -and our level of knowledge and ability INCREASES by having his spirit first with -then in -us.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
HE puts HIS LAWS in OUR MINDS and WRITES them on OUR HEARTS. We do still have to choose to obey, but he makes us see what we need to change and do -and makes us able. He both commands it and grants it.
Your use of the word gift is correct -I was reminded by all of this of some verses which spoke of God granting repentance.
Read Acts 11 -it clearly shows God granting the GIFT of repentance to the Gentiles.
Act 11: 17-18 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles GRANTED REPENTANCE UNTO LIFE.
In Romans 7, the apostle details his constant struggle against sin a good fight to be sure -and also asks who can deliver him.
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CHEWY
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Does a person's heart have to be changed before true repentance is possible? Does an unsaved person have the capacity to "zap" themselves into repentance?
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oneinchrist
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One more thing that I would like to add Isaiah.
I do not believe that Paul was an example of someone "zapped" with the gift of repentance. I believe that the truth of the matter is that Paul was severely chastisted by the Lord and he still needed to repent and be baptized in the name of the Lord. I cannot think of any off hand but I am sure that there are others who have received God's strong rebuke and still refused to repent.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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oneinchrist
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I see what you are saying Isaiah. I agree that there is no "perfect" repentance. Nevertheless, there must be repentance or there will be no forgiveness of sin.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Isaiah
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I meant that complete repentance is perfection -being perfect as God is perfect -and without his spirit coupled with ours, it is absolutely imossible to even know what this means -much less accomplish it. A true understanding of the spiritual aspects of the ten commandments, etc... and especially the ability to truly love one's enemies in spirit -among other things... is impossible for the human mind alone -though it can understand the letter of the law. It can begin these things when God's spirit is with one -but not to the extent as when God puts his spirit in one. Of course, those without his spirit in them might not believe this. I don't have my bible search engine available to find the quotes I was going to add....have to install it again -I really should remember the locations for such occasions. As for God zapping us -it does sometimes happen that way -even to such extremes as Paul's (Saul's) case. It is true that man is capable of generally discerning between right and wrong -and can choose the right quite sincerely -but God's righteousness goes far beyond anything man can alone discern.
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oneinchrist
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Hi Isaiah,
I would like to adress your statement...
"Man is not--alone--capable of complete repentance".
I do agree with this statement to the extent that God gives us all the right reasons to humble ourselves in repentance.....but I do not believe that God comes along and "zaps" a person into a repentant mode, as if the gospel message is'nt a sufficient enough cause.
We do have to be careful to know what is our responsibility in repentance.....
--turning from sin in light of the gospel message
--turning from a position of rebellion to God
--change of mind about sin in light of the gospel
--change of purpose; turning to God and His will
--humbling ourselves turning from self-righteousness and self-will in light of the gospel message.
I would like to add that I do understand that there still will be sin in our lives that needs to be adressed even after we have become a member of the body of Christ. This does not mean that we have not repented though. In the sanctification process I do believe that God wills to help us indentify those areas, and yes even give us strength to overcome, but still leave us with the decision to take our hand out of the cookie jar, or put the bottle down.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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oneinchrist
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Thank you Isaiah for all the scriptural support.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Isaiah
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Man is RESPONSIBLE for his own repentance.
Some believe we were given freedom of choice -but what we were truly given is the choice between life and death -blessing and cursing.
To choose life is to repent of choosing death.
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
God tells us to turn from our evil ways -it is our responsibility.
1Jo 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself[repents!], even as he is pure.
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
However... man is not -alone -CAPABLE of COMPLETE REPENTANCE.
First -the carnal mind is at odds with God and can not please him.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
We can read the commandments as the ancient Israelites did -and keep some of the letter of the law -but even this proved to be too much for man -which is why the old covenant is called imperfect. It was done to illustrate this very point. We can not, however, keep the spirit of the law without God's own spirit being first with -then in -us.
Some believe that the new covenant did away with man being responsible for keeping the commandments -but it actually made it POSSIBLE!
It is that by which God can make us able to understand the spirit of the law and strengthen us to keep it.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the spirit the things of the spirit.
Rom 8:11 But if the spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his spirit that dwelleth in you.
So -when and if we receive God's own spirit in us -after true calling by God, repentance(the beginnings thereof), baptism and the laying on of hands -we begin a relationship of hungering and thirsting for righteousness -and being satisfied by God -we are dependent on him for knowledge and strength -but we are also to put forth all the effort we can, and use our spirits -coupled with his -to apply the law and go above and beyond it in love. The law is only what is required -we can then be creative and proactive in well-doing.
2Ti 1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
God did not make a mistake -it is all part of the plan.
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oneinchrist
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My friends in the Lord, I believe that it is a lie of the devil himself that man is not responsible for his own repentance. I understand that God sends the word that is to the dividing asunder of the soul and spirit of man (with convicting power), but I firmly believe that it is left up to us to choose whether or not we will respond with a repentant heart or whether we will ignore the message and live on.
Some may wonder why I seem a little pre-occuppied with this topic, but I will tell you that people really see the world in different ways when they perceive certain things differently. My spirit has moved from more of a feeling of hopelessness to a feeling of hope because I dont have to believe that it's God who does not care to save us, it is us who do not care to turn to him and repent. I feel the need in my witness to adress the need for repentance with an explanation of what it means to repent. This can be difficult because it needs to be done in a spirit of humility and mixed with a healthy fear of the Lord......otherwise the person may turn to us and say.....who are you to tell me that I need to repent? look at your life and don't judge me!
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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