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Topic: The REAL HERESY of Today
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HisGrace
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I would like to focus on the original intent of this thread. quote:
Originally posted by ToBeContinued:
However, we DO have REAL HERESY among us today, in the form of VERY POPULAR belief systems now being introduced such as the DaVinci Code and The Beast Movie.
These set out to DENY CHRIST and his deity, period. This is REAL Heresy.
We are more than aware of the heresy in many churches, but ToBeContinued is drawing our attention to another very dangerous heresy.
This is just a tiny sample of the shocking heresy in the secular world. These accusations are out of the pit of hell and I find them extremely disturbing. In yesterday's paper:
quote:
Jesus denies he was son of God, author claims -
Michael Baigent's The Jesus Papers tries to strip Jesus of his divinity by claiming that he wrote a letter to a Jewish court denying he was the son of God. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
It also suggests there is evidence that Christ survived the crucifixion and that his death was faked as a cover to allow him to escape his enemies. Pontius Pilate, the Roman procurator of Judea who sentenced him to death is said to have aided and abetted the mock execution because Jesus had told the Jews to pay their taxes.
"It was rigged, It was a fraud" he says. "I think the crucifixion was set up to remove a partiular political problem which both Pilate and Jesus found themselves in.
He believes Jesus may have been drugged to reduce the trauma of being on the cross.
After recuperating, Jesus and his wife travelled to upper Egypt and taught mystical lore
Baigant claims he has documented proof of all of this garbage. How can anyone even think of making jest of the terrible suffering Jesus went through for us on that cruel cross. God must be weeping when he thinks of how he reluctantly allowed Jesus to be sacrificed and tortured in such an unbelievable manner to pay the price for our sins.
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becauseHElives
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TB125, good to here from you,
As a student of the scriptures you must make Scripture agree with Scripture.
While I can not judge who is Born Again and who is not Born Again, I can judge if someone is not living as they should.
Take for example the man that was sleeping with his mother in Scripture
1Cr 5:1 It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife……
1Cr 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
“In his letter to the church at Corinth, Paul commanded those Christians to deliver a sinful brother ‘unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh’
Now you have to make Scripture agree with Scripture, there is no private interpretation.
In this section of the apostle’s letter, he deals with a gross example of immorality in the Corinthian church. A man had become sexually intimate with his stepmother (the language is very precise - his “father’s wife,” as opposed to his own “mother”). The church members were not offended by the sordid situation; rather, they gloried in it. Such compromise called for the sternest rebuke. Deliver the offending brother to Satan for “the destruction of the flesh.”
“Deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” The destruction of the flesh is a remedial procedure, the design of which is for the man’s salvation. There is no redemptive value in mere death! A man put to death hardly has the opportunity for reformation.
The expression “deliver such a one unto Satan” is the equivalent of “put away the wicked man from among yourselves” (v. 13). It is a biblical idiom for the severing of Christian fellowship. It represents a dramatic expression of the literal formula, “have no company with” (v. 9), or the more specific admonition “with such a one do not even eat” (v. 11), i.e., refrain from ordinary social fraternization with such a one (cf. 2 Thes. 3:6).
One must note that Hymenaeus and Alexander had been “delivered unto Satan” in order that “they might be taught not to blaspheme” (1 Tim. 1:20). If the “deliverance” was death, how does the subsequent clause make any sense? It was not anticipated that these gentleman would be doing post-mortem blasphemy!
What then, is the meaning of that ambiguous phrase, “for the destruction of the flesh”?
The sense almost certainly is this: Turn the man over to Satan (i.e., back into the world community of debauchery), that he may reap the consequences of his rebellion (whatever physical and/or emotional disadvantages that might involve), along with distressing estrangement from a warm, loving association with the church. Under such circumstances of distress, if there were a remnant of conscience remaining, the rogue brother might well learn to “destroy” his baser, “fleshly” urges, and thus be reclaimed for the Savior’s cause.
I Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
In telling the church to "deliver" him unto Satan they were basically doing what we would call excommunication from the assembly. In doing this, he is now in the realm of Satan. Paul says that the devil will have access to him and have the ability to destroy his flesh during this time. The ulitmate goal or aim of this punishment is that the man's spirit will be saved. The intent is that the man will experience the chastening of the Lord and see how rotten things are living in the devil's domain (remember the prodigal son, who in the hogpen came to his senses?) and repent and be restored. The implication here is that the devil does not have unlimited access to those in the church! The psalmist describes the one who "dwells in the secret place of the Most High." John also describes a place of protection where the enemy does not have unlimited access to us. (This is not to say that God will not allow the enemy to tempt us and test us from time to time because we know from scripture that the devil will indeed be allowed to bring trials although only with the Father's permission).
I John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not
Notice the importance of community here. We are probably all familiar with the story of Cain and Abel. Even more famous are Cain's words "am I my brother's keeper?" Well, if you are a Christian, then you do indeed have a responsibility to watch over your brothers and sisters in the Lord. Notice in the above passage the importance of intercession on behalf of sinning brothers. Also see that there is a place of safety for those walking in this type of obedience and interdependance (the wicked one touches him not).
Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted
From time to time, true Christians will find themselves in need of restoration. Without the help of the local church, how is this ever to take place? Those in the community of faith have a responsibility to watch over their brothers and sisters and go to them when they see them fallen. The scripture also says we are to "know them that labor among us" (I Thess 5:12). Again I ask, how is this possible if only through the medium of television or chat rooms (where most people choose to communicate through pen names or anonymous means anyway)? Restoration necessitates that one be intimately acquainted with those in need. The Apostle James tells us that we have a responsibility to turn an erring brother back to the fold.
James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Again, without the aid and assistance of the local fellowship, this command becomes almost impossible to obey. However we have an obligation to bring the erring brother back to the fold if at all possible. Christ taught a message about the shepherd who left the 99 in order to find the one sheep who had "wandered" away (Matthew 18:12). Unfortunately sheep (and we Christians are referred to as sheep) are not very bright creatures. Sometimes they do wander from the fold. It is very important that they be brought back into the flock so that the wolves and other predators do not destroy them. This brings me to my last, and probably most important point. Failure to assemble with other believers can lead to apostacy. Let's take a look from the book of Hebrews.
Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hebrews is a book that speaks of the supremacy of Christ's perfect once-for-all sacrifice. The book makes many references to the Old Testament and shows that Christ is the fulfillment of everything prophesied in the O.T. In addition to the author's theme of the inferiority of Judaism to Christianity, he also warns of the dangers of apostacy. There are several hortatory warnings against apostacy in the book of Hebrews. I listed just one of them above. In the verse I posted above, we see that failure to assemble with other Christians has always been an issue for "some". The devil loves it when Christians are isolated because they are easy prey. Sheep are vulnerable when they are separated from the flock and the loving care of a shepherd. While it is true that ultimately Christ is the Great Shepherd of the sheep- He also uses the local pastor as an undershepherd. We know this is true because it is written:
Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Those who fail to commit and submit to a local assembly are in violation of the New Testament pattern for worship. As I said earlier, there is a strong trend to try and discredit the need for local assembly. Christianity by nature is communal. That doesn't mean that we all have to live together on a compound or under the same roof. In heaven and the millenial kingdom of Christ, there will be no autonomy. We will operate and function as an orderly kingdom of priests unto God. Those who do not wish to assemble with other Christians become candidates for apostacy. I know this isn't popular but it is true nonetheless. In Christ's parable of the sower, He warned that apostacy is indeed possible.
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away
In light of the fact that it is indeed possible to 'believe for a while" and then afterward fall away- the dangers of neglecting fellowship with other believers is all the more perilous. Notice in Hebrews 10 that the author says not only should we be meeting together regularly but "so much more as we see the Day approaching." As we see the nearness of the coming of the Lord and the fulfillment of bible prophesy-as we see the world getting darker and darker- the need for Christian fellowship and exhortation becomes more necessary than ever before!
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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ToBeContinued
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Sounds great Linda!!
I am very interested in your replies, and absolutely I agree we should agree to disagree : )
I am ok with that!!
BTW means "By the Way" -
I would be curious to see if there is any discussion regarding the info I gave specific to Joel Osteen and how they started after his dad died -
And, as Linda pointed out - I am interested in replies to my above posts -
God bless you all!!
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TB125
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I haven't been engaged in these discussions regarding heresies and various preachers and the church and the world, but I would suggest that Matthew's collection of several of Jesus' parables regarding "the kingdom of heaven" in the 13th chapter of his gospel has much to teach us. Jesus teaches about those who "see" and "hear"; the "sower" and those who "receive" the "seed" and the "soil"; the "field", the "enemy", the "wheat", and "weeds", and the "harvesters, the things that are to be "burned" and those that are to brought into God's "barn. I'm sure that each of us are included somewhere in this teaching.
Note that in the parable of the weeds quote:
Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.
(Matt 13:30)
Then Jesus adds this explanation quote:
The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
(Matt 13:39)
The differences between "wheat" and "weeds" may be obvious to most of us, but I don't believe that any of us are the "angels" that have the responsibility or the authority to gather in the "crop".
I have learned that the signs of God's kingdom and the marks of God's work in the world are seen and implemented in the "fields" where these spiritual gifts are manifested: the "gospel" is preached , individuals are attracted to it and changed from it by the power of the Holy Spirit the primary person being promoted is always Jesus the work is being done by disciples (learners) who are working together in loving harmony in teams and there is a lot of frequent prayers and praise being offered to God for the process
I don't know about the rest of you and these other "servants" that are examined in this posts, but the challenge of these "marks" for "servants" in God's kingdom are enough for me.
My call is to serve God with the gifts that He has given to me so that others will see and experience God's loving glory in Jesus, His Son, letting the judgments regarding my work/offering to be made by his "angels" and Jesus himself at "the end of the age".
I would encourage each of us to really seek to reflect the glory of God in Jesus Christ, recognizing that it will not be the worldly crowds that we will attract but the "few" sinners who are humble enough to repent and to trust Jesus completely for their salvation.
It is important to be able to discern the "truth" of God's word and the wisdom of His teachings from all of the heresies that are being taught and promoted throughout the world, but our primary commission and calling is to "witness" to God's glory in Jesus Christ. I believe that God's Holy Spirit is the primary agent of this discernment and that He is a work within the Church, Jesus' "body", and within the world to prepare the peoples of the world for His "harvest". My prayer is that I will be faithful in my calling, that others may see some of Jesus in my life and minstry. May God bless each of us in our respective ministries.
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Bob
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becauseHElives
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quote:
then I want to say that the world IS the only problem and threat to people getting to know Jesus. Not the church of the bornagain.
Don't worry about the church. Numerous people in church bring Bibles with them. Numerous teachers on TV have their congregation open up their Bibles with the preacher or the teacher and they even read it together. They are all part of the church of the bornagain; they are now neither Jew nor Gentile.
BA, not everyone that says Lord, Lord are members of the "ecclesia"!
BA remember the scriptures talk about sheep and goats.
BA, please show me one scripture in the New Testament where the Apostles or Yeshua was concerned with what was happening out side the "ecclesia" ?
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From His Grace "It would be great if we could have just one thread without being obsessed and pre-occupied with talking about WOF'ers, but I guess not. BTW I don't get TBN."
who is "BTW"?
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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HisGrace
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Thanks ToBeContinued and BornAgain - we need more posts like that!!!
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helpforhomeschoolers
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BA: you brought up some good points that I would like to speak to but I am outta here early this am. It is gonna be a long day, but if I get home early enough to night, I'll try to get back to them. I have some comments but also some questions regarding what you have said.
Jim: You and I will I fear never find common ground on this one, we will have to agree to disagree; we have different ideas about what fruitful is to God, and about what makes a local congregation successful for lack of a better way to put it, in God's eyes and probably even different ideas on what the purpose of the local church is. There is no doubt that the gift that Cain brought was a fine presentation of grain.
I know you were talking to Walt above, but on this.... this would make for good discussion. I dont have time this morning but I am sure walt or some of the others here can answer this. IF not maybe I will get time tonight or tomorrow.
quote:
Why not talk about why they have not been removed?
Why not discuss why God has allowed these heretics to continue?
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
This is pretty clear to me. I know you love to argue and to try and pin me into a corner, HFHS. Sorry, I'm in no mood for your games - not this time.
Excuse me. The post that you keep quoting is a direct response to Jim. It is what I have to say about this thread. It clearly addresses the point JIM, not you made in this thread, This thread's topic implies that the "real" Heresy is things like the Da Vinci Code and not things like what Osteen and Meyer are doing.
To that I reply: I agree with all you have said, but I disagree with the implication that one is the "real" heresy and the other is not.
What is your problem HisGrace???
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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ToBeContinued
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quote:
Bornagain writes -
Jesus said, "not one sheep of all that the Father gives me will be lost." Have faith in that statement. God and Jesus have things even now under total control. God and Jesus are superthankful over the ones who have made it out of the world and into the church. sister, the church needs to be protected from attacks emanating out of the world, not from brothers and sisters within in the church, even when, being children, they are misguided at times.
AMEN Born Again!!
quote:
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
My point exactly - Man do they have ALOT of good fruit!! (A for instance is Lakewood Church I mean)
Everyone knows them for their massive amounts of fruit, and their tree keeps getting bigger and greener - The more they sow seed, the more that tree produces massive amounts of fruit.
Again I would ask where is all of this supposed bad fruit you speak of and make reference to Gods Holy Word as though it were speaking about them?
Oh, you mean Benny Hinn from 1989 or 1977?
Well, I am referring to Lakewood right now -
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SoftTouch
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quote:
Matthew 7:15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
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Acts 20:29For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Apparently I need to Clarify why I posted this... This quote is to Try Once Again to show that Heresy would come from WITHIN the Church
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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BORN AGAIN
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sister helpforhomeschoolers writes quote:
I agree that the DaVinci Code is heresy. What I don't understand is why we expect anything less out of the world.
Regarding that bolded sentence, this is probably where you and I disagree. You tend to see the heresy as being in the church, and I tend to see the heresy outside the church. And it ties in with this other statement you made: quote:
The scripture clearly warns of false teachers, with in the church.
I think where you and I differ on this is that I think that this last scripture applied to the early church and the separation from the Mosaic system.
It took quite a while for the church to separate out from the Mosaic system since the church was now composed, neither of Jews nor of Greeks, but of a third kind of person, a bornagain person.
It was a major shock to everyone in Israel-Judah that Jesus was the new Mosaic system and that the Mosaic system had been a figure or pattern of what and who Jesus would be later.
Once Jesus Himself came, the Mosaic system was done away with. The books of the Bible were not yet cannonized or assembled in their final compilation, so there was lots of danger from Judaizers, even Christian Judaizers who still maintained that one still had to follow the law of Moses also.
It was a dangerous period and a major struggle, which our beloved brother Saul-Paul of Tarsus knows all too well. Paul was telling them, the bornagain third kind of persons to whom Paul was speaking, "Beware! For false teachers will try to get you to believe in another Jesus and try to take away the liberty which we have in Christ, and so on".
But once the church of the bornagain was well-separated from the Mosaic system and the New Testament has been well settled as an available and checkable set of books, that dangerous "false teachers" period for the early church was past.
The people in the church of the bornagain are, well, all bornagain, neither Jew nor Gentile, and a third kind of person. None of them are trying to get anybody to UNBELIEF in Jesus and to return to the MOSAIC SYSTEM?
The Copelands and Osteens and Myers are all bornagain third kind of persons and are neither Jew nor Gentile.
So helpforhomeschoolers, when you say this:sister helpforhomeschoolers writes quote:
I agree that the DaVinci Code is heresy. What I don't understand is why we expect anything less out of the world.
then I want to say that the world IS the only problem and threat to people getting to know Jesus. Not the church of the bornagain.
Lucifer-Satan runs the world and it is he who will throw up all sorts of fakes and heresies and lies and psychic stories and channelings and V for Vengeance movies and hold "scientific" meetings about how the Christians and Islam and Jews need to be killed so we can get on with this society.
(Lucifer-Satan will throw his own religion Islam in with the ones he actually hates, since Lucifer-Satan knows that Islam is his own creation anyway.)
helpforhomeschoolers, let me ask you something, "you were saved from the world, right? you were not saved from the church, right?"
Don't worry about the church. Numerous people in church bring Bibles with them. Numerous teachers on TV have their congregation open up their Bibles with the preacher or the teacher and they even read it together. They are all part of the church of the bornagain; they are now neither Jew nor Gentile.
sister helpforhomeschoolers, wake up, it is the world that denies Christ and Jesus, and not the church!
Sure, in the church of the bornagain are a bunch of saved sinners who now have access to the Holy Spirit, hello-o, that does not make them automatically perfect little Jesuses, does it?
As I said earlier in another post, God watches us saved sinners help Him with His Great Work on earth, but in the end He will set it all up straight as it should have been set up, but He enjoyed watching us try our best. For now we see in part and understand in part, but then, face to face.
Below is some more of you: quote:
Walk in any public school and you will find heresy. The world denies Jesus and the Bible. In perhaps every college in this nation heresy is being spoken every day. It is printed in our textbooks.
Maybe I missed something but is Dan Brown a professing Christian? Does he shepherd a flock?
I agree absolutely that Christians ought stay away from the Da Vinci Code and speak against this kind of garbage.
But I do not agree with the implication that this is the "real" heresy and what is going on in the church is not heresy.
sister, if someone is in the church they are a bornagain third kind of man, neither Jew nor Gentile. Is there heresy in being in the church, though some of what it is taught is foolishly misrepresented? But God will set it right later.
Jesus said, "not one sheep of all that the Father gives me will be lost." Have faith in that statement. God and Jesus have things even now under total control. God and Jesus are superthankful over the ones who have made it out of the world and into the church. sister, the church needs to be protected from attacks emanating out of the world, not from brothers and sisters within in the church, even when, being children, they are misguided at times.
with love, BORN AGAIN by the ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) of Yeshua-Jesus
"who you fishin' fur? who you fishin' fur?"
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BORN AGAIN
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Amen, brother ToBeContinued, wasn't it you who said something about the deadpanning Lutheran or Episcopalian church or some of those "don't be shoutin' too loud for Jesus now, this is a respectable church, or you'll have to leave, okay?" kind of place? I think it was you.
Didn't Jesus say that not one sheep that my Father gives Me will be lost?
Look, God knows what condition man is in; apparently some here think that they are still in pretty good shape compared to others, but God will set it all straight and pure in the end, He's is enjoying Himself watching us work with Him as His co-laborers.
But in the end, this relationship between God and saved sinners, will be seen to have been much like a human father playmaking with his 3 year old baby boy behind the wheel of daddy's Dodge Magnum, as if the baby boy is actually driving. We don't mind doing that for the little boy.
And in the end, when all is said and done, we bornagain Christians will have turned out to be 3-year-old babies whom the LORD put behind the wheel of salvation of the sheep for a bit, until the Father sets it all aright, for good this time.
May the LORD God of Israel bless all who participate here. I am BORN AGAIN in the USA by the of Lord God Yeshua-Jesus.
"we know God isn't interested in our natural badness; but did you know that God isn't interested in our natural goodness either?"
of Jesus
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ToBeContinued
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Misused???
Well - If yo say so, however I would contend that you may want to do a little more research on whatyou know about the people I mentioned prior to stating that they deny Christ.
What I find so terribly sad is that no matter what, everyone jumps on the band wagon to attack these people, while making NO commentary on the one thing most important -
MANY MANY false teachers have been torn down swiftly, yet the ones I mention who have NOT been torn down, who are in fact doing SO MUCH good...
Why not talk about why they have not been removed?
Why not discuss why God has allowed these heretics to continue?
Do you think Joel Osteen takes a paycheck from his church?
He does not. How do I know? Because I have been involved directly.
Where does he get an income? From sales of his books and materials.
Do you know that he was ready to quit? When his dad died, he was going to quit and not take on the role of pastor.
Yet, something happened when he was ready to do this - SECULAR television, who at that time NEVER allowed ANY religous broadcasts during prime times (Fox, BET, etc) notified their ministry that they were ready to offer Lakewood Church PRIME TIME spots, ALL WEEK long, and at almost NO COST!!
He believed this was a sign from God and a nudge to ensure he did not quit.
So, he decided to take it on, and by the way -
Just so you know - Yes, their new Compaq center, which is MUCH MUCH more than a church (A community center that does MOUNTAINS of good for the community) cost nearly 100 million dollars to build, but do you know what he did in order to ensure that the money was raised?
He refused to be paid a paycheck, and sowed the resources they had into other churches, ministries, and missions...They had 7 million at the time - Shortly after this decision, they were blessed with 45 million - 10 of which was immediately sown into the above mentioned areas again, and again they were blessed - This time with promise from the city of Houston to ensure that the legal hassles going on with the center would be appeased.
They continue to sow millions upon millions -
Say what you will, but their IS a reason why they still stand - Much IS expected when MUCH is given, and they have modeled this over and over again.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
HosGrace! Why do you put words in people's mouths? Please try not to put words in my mouth.
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HG TO HFHS: I never said that there is no heresy in the church.
From HFHS -I dont recall saying that you did.
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
But I do not agree with the implication that this is the "real" heresy and what is going on in the church is not heresy.
This is pretty clear to me. I know you love to argue and to try and pin me into a corner, HFHS. Sorry, I'm in no mood for your games - not this time.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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HosGrace! Why do you put words in people's mouths? Please try not to put words in my mouth.
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HG TO HFHS: I never said that there is no heresy in the church.
I dont recall saying that you did. You do keep pointing to heresy outside the church and saying it is the "real" heresy as did Jim in this thread.
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HG to HFHS: Anyway, where did you get the idea that heresy was of the church only?
Where did you get the idea that I did??? I clearly stated on more than one occasion that I believed that the Divinci Code was heresy in the world. I said there is much heresy in the world. How could there not be.
What I also said is these scriptures that speak to false teachers speak to those who speak heresy and are in the church.
This would probably be closer to my definition of heresy or rather my understanding of heresy:
HER'ESY, n. [Gr. to take, to hold; L. haeresis.]
1. A fundamental error in religion, or an error of opinion respecting some fundamental doctrine of religion.
But in countries where there is an established church, an opinion is deemed heresy, when it differs from that of the church.
The Scriptures being the standard of faith, any opinion that is repugnant to its doctrines, is heresy;
In Scripture and primitive usage,heresy meant merely sect, party, or the doctrines of a sect, as we now use denomination or persuasion, implying no reproach.
2. Heresy, in law, is an offense against christianity, consisting in a denial of some of its essential doctrines, publicly avowed and obstinately maintained.
3. An untenable or unsound opinion or doctrine in politics.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
But I do not agree with the implication that this is the "real" heresy and what is going on in the church is not heresy.
The scripture clearly warns of false teachers, with in the church.
I never said that there is no heresy in the church. Anyway, where did you get the idea that heresy was of the church only?
Heresy (n)-any opinion or belief that challenges deeply established social, political, or religious views.
The shocking revelations in The DaVinci Code are the ultimate in heresy.
"Counterfeit Code
by James A. Beverley, Ph.D.
Dan Brown's novel The Da Vinci Code has sold over 25 million copies and been translated into 40 languages. The book attacks the central teachings of the Gospel. The Da Vinci Code needs to be disarmed . . . and you can help.
Your friends and neighbors and family members are being led astray by Dan Brown's theories. They are being misled about the true Christ and historic Gospel. The fantasies, mistakes and misinterpretations of The Da Vinci Code are confusing millions of people - and they need to know the truth. The novel teaches:
-Jesus was not divine
-Jesus and Mary Magdalene were lovers
-Christianity was originally a sex cult
-The Bible is unreliable
-Constantine invented the Trinity
-Witchcraft and paganism represent the true Gospel
-An ancient secret society once led by Leonardo Da Vinci protected all these ideas
Know the real history. Discover the blunders of The Da Vinci Code.
See for yourself how The Da Vinci Code cashes in on ignorance and gullibility. Pass on to others the truth about the claims that have so many people wondering about their faith in the Bible and Jesus Christ.
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HisGrace
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From His Grace "It would be great if we could have just one thread without being obsessed and pre-occupied with talking about WOF'ers, but I guess not. BTW I don't get TBN."
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Originally posted by SoftTouch:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
We didnt start this thread or bring up the WOF's in it HIS Grace.
I was referring to the following slur that was directed at me by a fellow brother.
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From Wparr -
HiGrace - What is so twisted in your thinking.
It seems like you have an permament bad attitude towards all who expose and uncover your precious TBN/WOF false teachers, that you look for things to jump on that aren't there so you twist what is said to beable to jump on it
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SoftTouch
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(An AMEN comes from the corner of the room to Sister Linda's above post...)
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
We didnt start this thread or bring up the WOF's in it HIS Grace.
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Originally posted by ToBeContinued:
While some may want to contend that this refers to people like Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyers,
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Originally posted by HisGrace:
Great post ToBeContinued!! The devil, in his usual devious ways, has made a crafty smoke screen by keeping people's minds focusing on born-again televangelists, instead of championing against true heresy -
(going back to reading now ![[Wink]](wink.gif) For those who can't wait to see me go... not to worry, I'll be outta here for at least a week starting Thursday night )
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
HG says: Because of that, are we supposed to take a ho-hum attitude because it is of the world. The world has souls too, and I have a real burden for the tens of millions who are going down this deceitful path, just as much as for the JW's or the Mormons.
I guess you stopped reading my post above. Here is what I said:
quote:
HFHS Says:I agree absolutely that Christians ought stay away from the Da Vinci Code and speak against this kind of garbage.
Here is what HFHS said in another thread on the subjet:
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HFHS says: Hisgrace, I have to ask you this... I know someone on another board who shares your burden regarding this book; it is because of her burden that I am aware of the book. I dont read fiction so I would never have picked it up; my husband read it so he could tell me about it because I would never have made it through the first chapter ads I just have no interest in novels. But my desire to know more about it was spawned by my sister's burden who spoke about its dangers and posted many articles to warn the church and make them aware of the issues.
If this is your burden why have you not done these things so that we could be aware of the impending evil?
Why do you only speak of this burden in a way as to say that it should be more a burden than the burden that I or Deb or Drew or hardcore have for other dangers?
Indeed this book is not good. This book is definetly of the devil and meant to color peoples minds with dis-belief. It is worthy of all our concerns, but not more so than others concerns that you do not want preached about here. If God has truly given you a burden on this subject teach us about it that we can share that burden and stop trying to undermine the burdens that God has given others. If God gave you this burden I do not believe that it was for the purpose of undermining those who were given other burdens.
I would say that the same still applies; I would love to read something on the Da Vinci Code warning me why I as a Christian should stay away from this book.
I would love to read something informing me clearly with maybe an excerpt or something what I can expect to be combatting in the world because people in the world have read this book.
That would be doing something about this problem.
Instead what I see is
1.) an attempt to undermine those on this board who speak against false teaching in the church;
2.)I see an effort to draw attention away from the false things that are being taught in the church and
3.)I see an attempt to tell the church not to be concerned with what is going on in the church as much as you are concerned with what is going on in the world.
And that last thing that I see is 100% contrary to everything that Paul and the Apostles taught whether by example, or by word.
How did Paul deal with the things that were contrary to scripture in the world? He preached the Gospel. Warn the church preach the Gospel it is really simple.
quote:
It would be great if we could have just one thread without being obsessed and pre-occupied with talking about WOF'ers, but I guess not. BTW I don't get TBN.
We didnt start this thread or bring up the WOF's in it HIS Grace.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
TBN/WOF false teachers, that you look for things to jump on that aren't there so you twist what is said to beable to jump on it.
It would be great if we could have just one thread without being obsessed and pre-occupied with talking about WOF'ers, but I guess not. BTW I don't get TBN.
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wparr
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
The world has souls too, and I have a real burden for the tens of millions who are going down this deceitful path, just as much as for the JW's or the Mormons.
I KNOW that Linda has a burden for lost souls also.
But HOW is your burden for those souls being manifest in action.
That's a REAL question to all who say they have a burden for souls.
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wparr
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HiGrace - What is so twisted in your thinking
Linda didn't even BEGIN to show a ho-hum attitude in the deception being done by the book, but that we should EXPECT (ie NOT BE SHOCKED) by stuff like this coming out of the world).
It seems like you have an permament bad attitude towards all who expose and uncover your precious TBN/WOF false teachers, that you look for things to jump on that aren't there so you twist what is said to beable to jump on it.
There is NO His Grace in the attitude displayed.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
I agree that the Da Vinci Code is Heresy. What I dont understand is why we expect anything less out of the world.
Because of that, are we supposed to take a ho-hum attitude because it is of the world. The world has souls too, and I have a real burden for the tens of millions who are going down this deceitful path, just as much as for the JW's or the Mormons.
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wparr
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ToBeContinued,
REALLY read and study that verse you quoted and mis-used.
2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
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First off the false teachers are AMONG or WITH the believers.
Y'shua backs up this picture
Matthew 7:15
Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
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Next, when you CLOSELY study the OT and the prophets (both real and false) you will see the false prophets GREATLY out-numbered the prophets of Yahweh.
Peter then makes it clear it will be the same with false teachers, they (false teachers) will ALSO outnumber the TRUE teachers of Y'shua (Jesus)
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Thirdly, the false teachers will secretly introduce destructive heresies (again implied that the false teachers are AMONG the believers).
that word "secretly introduce" in the Greek means "to lay along side"
The false teachers masterfuully lay their damnable heresies along side the TRUE Gospel of Y'shua and mix it togeather so the Gospel becomes polluted and corrupt
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even denying the Master who bought them does not mean all will do it VERBALLY.
They do it by their ACTIONS (fruit) and teaching.
Their fruit - living in extravagant wealth and excess and being above and better than Y'shua's flock- DENY Yahweh.
Matthew 23:11-12
(11) "But the greatest among you shall be your servant.
(12) "Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.
Mark 10:43-45
(43) "But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant;
(44) and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all.
(45) "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
(Luke 16:13)
"No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth."
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Lastly
2 Peter 2:2
(2) Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
When lost people see all those "televangelists" on TV, and see and Recognize the greed and desire for wealth:
Isn't the way of the truth will be malignedbecause of them?
GREATLY
Because of them many lost the "church" wants them because of THEIR MONEY.
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becauseHElives
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well said Linda, ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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helpforhomeschoolers
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I agree that the Da Vinci Code is Heresy. What I dont understand is why we expect anything less out of the world. Walk in any public school and you will find heresy. The world denies Jesus and the Bible. In perhaps every college in this nation heresy is being spoken every day. It is printed in our textbooks.
Maybe I missed something but is Dan Brown a professing Christian? Does he shepherd a flock?
I agree absolutely that Christians ought stay away from the Da Vinci Code and speak against this kind of garbage.
But I do not agree with the implication that this is the "real" heresy and what is going on in the church is not heresy.
The scripture clearly warns of false teachers, with in the church.
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HisGrace
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Great post ToBeContinued!! The devil, in his usual devious ways, has made a crafty smoke screen by keeping people's minds focusing on born-again televangelists, instead of championing against true heresy -
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From HisGrace - This is the kind of heresy that really disturbs me. Millions of books are being sold and corrupting innocent children with contamination of satanic witchcraft, sorcery, enchanters and necromancy, that even an adult mind has difficulty handling. Not only that, graphic movies are being produced in the name of innocent entertainment.
About a year ago, J.K. Rowling said that each new book was going to become progressively more deeply dark and sinister. I believe she has one last book that she is working on.
I cut and pasted this quote that I posted on another thread.
Here is a quote I found regarding the movie titled The Prisoner of Azkaban -
"Yeah, we went on Friday night to the premiere. It was very different from the previous two movies in the Harry Potter series. The movie started out funny, but it quickly went spooky and sinister. It was darker, scarier with the attacking werewolf, axing of the hippogryph, the dementors sucking out souls, and the "grim", a scary looking dog/wolf with flashing eyes. The movie was quite different from the book. There were alot of children there, and it probably scared the pants off most of them. I wouldn't recommend it for young children."
J.K. Rowling's work has created memorabilia seeking, book fairs and extavaganzas in epidemic proportions. I am extremely concerned about how it is corrupting the minds of our younger generation.
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becauseHElives
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quote:
In his outstanding book on culture, The God Who Is There, Francis Schaeffer says, “The Christian is to resist the Spirit of the world. But when we say this, we must understand that that world spirit does not always take the same form. So the Christian must resist the spirit of the world in the form it takes in his own generation.”
This is so true, "The DaVinci Code" is Heresy
but also true that the teachings of Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyers, Benny Hinn, Rick Warren and most of the other TBN crowd are Heresy advocates.
Heresy defined by scripture (from in Strong’s Concordance)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/1/1144676872-2994.html
1) act of taking, capture: e.g. storming a city
2) choosing, choice
3) that which is chosen
4) a body of men following their own tenets (sect or party)
a) of the Sadducees
b) of the Pharisees
c) of the Christians
5) dissensions arising from diversity of opinions and aims
Heresy , simply put means any denomination or dividing of the one True Faith.
In the True Gospel there is only one objective. That you / me or any other individual die to self that Yeshua may live in our place.
In the True Gospel there is only one message, there is nothing good in any person, no quality redeemable in mankind until first it has completely died and been raised in newness of the life of Yeshua.
In the True Gospel, the scriptures are the only authority. And the scriptures are of no private interpretation
When the world (people) around you consider what you are by your conversation (your words and actions) do they think of Yeshua or your denomination or something else?
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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ToBeContinued
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2 Peter 2
False Teachers and Their Destruction
1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
While some may want to contend that this refers to people like Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyers, I disagree - They DO NOT deny Christ!!!
However, we DO have REAL HERESY among us today, in the form of VERY POPULAR belief systems now being introduced such as the DaVinci Code and The Beast Movie.
These set out to DENY CHRIST and his deity, period. This is REAL Heresy.
Granted, we have seen false teachers be torn down quickly, as the word describes, such as The Bakers and MANY others - The ones who are popularly railed on here have LONG standing ministries, but you can ignore that part and apply other verses to try to fit your opinion of them -
Anyway - My point is that below is a sample of REAL Heresy, which seeks to destroy our faith and is extremely popular.
And please don't go filling in a bunch of verses that you think apply to Joyce Meyers or Joel, I have seen all those OVER and OVER again, no need to demonstrate what you believe applies to them, notwithstanding the verse I used above must NOT apply to them, as they have not been torn down, nor have they denied Christ, but the following DOES meet this criteria -
Come mid May the film version of Dan Brown’s DaVinci Code will hit theaters across the globe. Staring Tom Hanks and directed by Ron Howard, it promises to be a blockbuster. Rightly classified in the bookstore as fiction, the book is a well written murder mystery novel and is very readable. The book’s problem lies, not with its literary style, but with the blatant message it seeks to propagate: That Jesus is not God.
The book begins with the murder of the art curator at Paris’ Louve museum. The principle character, Robert Langon, a carry over from Brown’s Angels and Demons, is called to the scene by police, only to realize that he is their principle suspect. Along with the curator’s granddaughter, Langon begins a nonstop race towards the “truth,” which, according to Brown is a colossal two thousand year old cover-up by the Roman Catholic Church.
Throughout the story we are told that Jesus is not really God, but that He was deified by the Roman emperor Constantine at the Council of Nicea for political purposes. Brown writes that Mary Magdalene and Jesus were married and that she carried His child, or His blood, making her the “Holy Grail.” In fact worship of the “Sacred Feminine,” or pagan goddess worship, is what Christianity is really about. It is the Church, say Brown’s characters, which has twisted this message for their own purposes of control.
Throughout the book we are told of the Priory of Sion, a secret organization which has for centuries protected the historical proof that substantiates all of these claims. According to the book DaVinci, himself a supposed grand master of the Priory of Sion and a homosexual, hid clues to this “truth” in his paintings. Thus, the DaVinci Code.
Scholars from across the theological spectrum have denounced Brown’s work as slanderous and accused him of intentionally trying to undermine the Christian faith. Brown’s historical “facts” are little more than mere fabrication. And for the student of history this is an easy book to refute.
For example, the Priory of Sion has been proven a hoax. In reality it was an organization started in France in the middle part of the last century by a convicted con man. His claim that DaVinci was gay cannot be substantiated historically. Neither can what he says about the “Sacred Feminine.”
His claims about the Council of Nicea are boldface lies, I mean we have the minutes from that meeting and none of what Brown says is true. The list of fabricated “facts’ goes on and on. So why all the fuss? Because most of the people who read this book or watch this movie are not scholars.
We live in an age and culture where people are biblically illiterate and will believe almost anything if it is entertaining. In a society where people watch Oprah to get marital advice, it should come as no surprise if people seek theological advice from a murder mystery.
In his outstanding book on culture, The God Who Is There, Francis Schaeffer says, “The Christian is to resist the Spirit of the world. But when we say this, we must understand that that world spirit does not always take the same form. So the Christian must resist the spirit of the world in the form it takes in his own generation.”
The DaVinci code truly represents the spirit of our age, a spirit which denies the deity of Christ and seeks to undermine our faith. As Christians, and especially as pastors, we must contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3).
2 Peter 2
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them into gloomy dungeons[b] to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.[c] 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature[d] and despise authority.
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