This is topic The REAL HERESY of Today in forum Exposing False Teaching at Christian Message Boards.
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Posted by ToBeContinued (Member # 4639) on
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2 Peter 2
False Teachers and Their Destruction
1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
While some may want to contend that this refers to people like Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyers, I disagree - They DO NOT deny Christ!!!
However, we DO have REAL HERESY among us today, in the form of VERY POPULAR belief systems now being introduced such as the DaVinci Code and The Beast Movie.
These set out to DENY CHRIST and his deity, period. This is REAL Heresy.
Granted, we have seen false teachers be torn down quickly, as the word describes, such as The Bakers and MANY others - The ones who are popularly railed on here have LONG standing ministries, but you can ignore that part and apply other verses to try to fit your opinion of them -
Anyway - My point is that below is a sample of REAL Heresy, which seeks to destroy our faith and is extremely popular.
And please don't go filling in a bunch of verses that you think apply to Joyce Meyers or Joel, I have seen all those OVER and OVER again, no need to demonstrate what you believe applies to them, notwithstanding the verse I used above must NOT apply to them, as they have not been torn down, nor have they denied Christ, but the following DOES meet this criteria -
Come mid May the film version of Dan Brown’s DaVinci Code will hit theaters across the globe. Staring Tom Hanks and directed by Ron Howard, it promises to be a blockbuster. Rightly classified in the bookstore as fiction, the book is a well written murder mystery novel and is very readable. The book’s problem lies, not with its literary style, but with the blatant message it seeks to propagate: That Jesus is not God.
The book begins with the murder of the art curator at Paris’ Louve museum. The principle character, Robert Langon, a carry over from Brown’s Angels and Demons, is called to the scene by police, only to realize that he is their principle suspect. Along with the curator’s granddaughter, Langon begins a nonstop race towards the “truth,” which, according to Brown is a colossal two thousand year old cover-up by the Roman Catholic Church.
Throughout the story we are told that Jesus is not really God, but that He was deified by the Roman emperor Constantine at the Council of Nicea for political purposes. Brown writes that Mary Magdalene and Jesus were married and that she carried His child, or His blood, making her the “Holy Grail.” In fact worship of the “Sacred Feminine,” or pagan goddess worship, is what Christianity is really about. It is the Church, say Brown’s characters, which has twisted this message for their own purposes of control.
Throughout the book we are told of the Priory of Sion, a secret organization which has for centuries protected the historical proof that substantiates all of these claims. According to the book DaVinci, himself a supposed grand master of the Priory of Sion and a homosexual, hid clues to this “truth” in his paintings. Thus, the DaVinci Code.
Scholars from across the theological spectrum have denounced Brown’s work as slanderous and accused him of intentionally trying to undermine the Christian faith. Brown’s historical “facts” are little more than mere fabrication. And for the student of history this is an easy book to refute.
For example, the Priory of Sion has been proven a hoax. In reality it was an organization started in France in the middle part of the last century by a convicted con man. His claim that DaVinci was gay cannot be substantiated historically. Neither can what he says about the “Sacred Feminine.”
His claims about the Council of Nicea are boldface lies, I mean we have the minutes from that meeting and none of what Brown says is true. The list of fabricated “facts’ goes on and on. So why all the fuss? Because most of the people who read this book or watch this movie are not scholars.
We live in an age and culture where people are biblically illiterate and will believe almost anything if it is entertaining. In a society where people watch Oprah to get marital advice, it should come as no surprise if people seek theological advice from a murder mystery.
In his outstanding book on culture, The God Who Is There, Francis Schaeffer says, “The Christian is to resist the Spirit of the world. But when we say this, we must understand that that world spirit does not always take the same form. So the Christian must resist the spirit of the world in the form it takes in his own generation.”
The DaVinci code truly represents the spirit of our age, a spirit which denies the deity of Christ and seeks to undermine our faith. As Christians, and especially as pastors, we must contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3).
2 Peter 2
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them into gloomy dungeons[b] to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.[c] 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature[d] and despise authority.
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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quote:
In his outstanding book on culture, The God Who Is There, Francis Schaeffer says, “The Christian is to resist the Spirit of the world. But when we say this, we must understand that that world spirit does not always take the same form. So the Christian must resist the spirit of the world in the form it takes in his own generation.”
This is so true, "The DaVinci Code" is Heresy
but also true that the teachings of Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyers, Benny Hinn, Rick Warren and most of the other TBN crowd are Heresy advocates.
Heresy defined by scripture (from in Strong’s Concordance)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/1/1144676872-2994.html
1) act of taking, capture: e.g. storming a city
2) choosing, choice
3) that which is chosen
4) a body of men following their own tenets (sect or party)
a) of the Sadducees
b) of the Pharisees
c) of the Christians
5) dissensions arising from diversity of opinions and aims
Heresy , simply put means any denomination or dividing of the one True Faith.
In the True Gospel there is only one objective. That you / me or any other individual die to self that Yeshua may live in our place.
In the True Gospel there is only one message, there is nothing good in any person, no quality redeemable in mankind until first it has completely died and been raised in newness of the life of Yeshua.
In the True Gospel, the scriptures are the only authority. And the scriptures are of no private interpretation
When the world (people) around you consider what you are by your conversation (your words and actions) do they think of Yeshua or your denomination or something else?
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
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Great post ToBeContinued!! The devil, in his usual devious ways, has made a crafty smoke screen by keeping people's minds focusing on born-again televangelists, instead of championing against true heresy -
quote:
From HisGrace - This is the kind of heresy that really disturbs me. Millions of books are being sold and corrupting innocent children with contamination of satanic witchcraft, sorcery, enchanters and necromancy, that even an adult mind has difficulty handling. Not only that, graphic movies are being produced in the name of innocent entertainment.
About a year ago, J.K. Rowling said that each new book was going to become progressively more deeply dark and sinister. I believe she has one last book that she is working on.
I cut and pasted this quote that I posted on another thread.
Here is a quote I found regarding the movie titled The Prisoner of Azkaban -
"Yeah, we went on Friday night to the premiere. It was very different from the previous two movies in the Harry Potter series. The movie started out funny, but it quickly went spooky and sinister. It was darker, scarier with the attacking werewolf, axing of the hippogryph, the dementors sucking out souls, and the "grim", a scary looking dog/wolf with flashing eyes. The movie was quite different from the book. There were alot of children there, and it probably scared the pants off most of them. I wouldn't recommend it for young children."
J.K. Rowling's work has created memorabilia seeking, book fairs and extavaganzas in epidemic proportions. I am extremely concerned about how it is corrupting the minds of our younger generation.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
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I agree that the Da Vinci Code is Heresy. What I dont understand is why we expect anything less out of the world. Walk in any public school and you will find heresy. The world denies Jesus and the Bible. In perhaps every college in this nation heresy is being spoken every day. It is printed in our textbooks.
Maybe I missed something but is Dan Brown a professing Christian? Does he shepherd a flock?
I agree absolutely that Christians ought stay away from the Da Vinci Code and speak against this kind of garbage.
But I do not agree with the implication that this is the "real" heresy and what is going on in the church is not heresy.
The scripture clearly warns of false teachers, with in the church.
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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well said Linda, ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on
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ToBeContinued,
REALLY read and study that verse you quoted and mis-used.
2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
-------------------------------------------------
First off the false teachers are AMONG or WITH the believers.
Y'shua backs up this picture
Matthew 7:15
Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
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Next, when you CLOSELY study the OT and the prophets (both real and false) you will see the false prophets GREATLY out-numbered the prophets of Yahweh.
Peter then makes it clear it will be the same with false teachers, they (false teachers) will ALSO outnumber the TRUE teachers of Y'shua (Jesus)
--------------------------------------------------
Thirdly, the false teachers will secretly introduce destructive heresies (again implied that the false teachers are AMONG the believers).
that word "secretly introduce" in the Greek means "to lay along side"
The false teachers masterfuully lay their damnable heresies along side the TRUE Gospel of Y'shua and mix it togeather so the Gospel becomes polluted and corrupt
------------------------------------------------
even denying the Master who bought them does not mean all will do it VERBALLY.
They do it by their ACTIONS (fruit) and teaching.
Their fruit - living in extravagant wealth and excess and being above and better than Y'shua's flock- DENY Yahweh.
Matthew 23:11-12
(11) "But the greatest among you shall be your servant.
(12) "Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.
Mark 10:43-45
(43) "But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant;
(44) and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all.
(45) "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
(Luke 16:13)
"No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth."
------------------------------------------------
Lastly
2 Peter 2:2
(2) Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
When lost people see all those "televangelists" on TV, and see and Recognize the greed and desire for wealth:
Isn't the way of the truth will be malignedbecause of them?
GREATLY
Because of them many lost the "church" wants them because of THEIR MONEY.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
I agree that the Da Vinci Code is Heresy. What I dont understand is why we expect anything less out of the world.
Because of that, are we supposed to take a ho-hum attitude because it is of the world. The world has souls too, and I have a real burden for the tens of millions who are going down this deceitful path, just as much as for the JW's or the Mormons.
Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on
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HiGrace - What is so twisted in your thinking
Linda didn't even BEGIN to show a ho-hum attitude in the deception being done by the book, but that we should EXPECT (ie NOT BE SHOCKED) by stuff like this coming out of the world).
It seems like you have an permament bad attitude towards all who expose and uncover your precious TBN/WOF false teachers, that you look for things to jump on that aren't there so you twist what is said to beable to jump on it.
There is NO His Grace in the attitude displayed.
Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
The world has souls too, and I have a real burden for the tens of millions who are going down this deceitful path, just as much as for the JW's or the Mormons.
I KNOW that Linda has a burden for lost souls also.
But HOW is your burden for those souls being manifest in action.
That's a REAL question to all who say they have a burden for souls.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
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quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
TBN/WOF false teachers, that you look for things to jump on that aren't there so you twist what is said to beable to jump on it.
It would be great if we could have just one thread without being obsessed and pre-occupied with talking about WOF'ers, but I guess not. BTW I don't get TBN.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
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quote:
HG says: Because of that, are we supposed to take a ho-hum attitude because it is of the world. The world has souls too, and I have a real burden for the tens of millions who are going down this deceitful path, just as much as for the JW's or the Mormons.
I guess you stopped reading my post above. Here is what I said:
quote:
HFHS Says:I agree absolutely that Christians ought stay away from the Da Vinci Code and speak against this kind of garbage.
Here is what HFHS said in another thread on the subjet:
quote:
HFHS says: Hisgrace, I have to ask you this... I know someone on another board who shares your burden regarding this book; it is because of her burden that I am aware of the book. I dont read fiction so I would never have picked it up; my husband read it so he could tell me about it because I would never have made it through the first chapter ads I just have no interest in novels. But my desire to know more about it was spawned by my sister's burden who spoke about its dangers and posted many articles to warn the church and make them aware of the issues.
If this is your burden why have you not done these things so that we could be aware of the impending evil?
Why do you only speak of this burden in a way as to say that it should be more a burden than the burden that I or Deb or Drew or hardcore have for other dangers?
Indeed this book is not good. This book is definetly of the devil and meant to color peoples minds with dis-belief. It is worthy of all our concerns, but not more so than others concerns that you do not want preached about here. If God has truly given you a burden on this subject teach us about it that we can share that burden and stop trying to undermine the burdens that God has given others. If God gave you this burden I do not believe that it was for the purpose of undermining those who were given other burdens.
I would say that the same still applies; I would love to read something on the Da Vinci Code warning me why I as a Christian should stay away from this book.
I would love to read something informing me clearly with maybe an excerpt or something what I can expect to be combatting in the world because people in the world have read this book.
That would be doing something about this problem.
Instead what I see is
1.) an attempt to undermine those on this board who speak against false teaching in the church;
2.)I see an effort to draw attention away from the false things that are being taught in the church and
3.)I see an attempt to tell the church not to be concerned with what is going on in the church as much as you are concerned with what is going on in the world.
And that last thing that I see is 100% contrary to everything that Paul and the Apostles taught whether by example, or by word.
How did Paul deal with the things that were contrary to scripture in the world? He preached the Gospel. Warn the church preach the Gospel it is really simple.
quote:
It would be great if we could have just one thread without being obsessed and pre-occupied with talking about WOF'ers, but I guess not. BTW I don't get TBN.
We didnt start this thread or bring up the WOF's in it HIS Grace.
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
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(An AMEN comes from the corner of the room to Sister Linda's above post...)
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
We didnt start this thread or bring up the WOF's in it HIS Grace.
quote:
Originally posted by ToBeContinued:
While some may want to contend that this refers to people like Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyers,
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
Great post ToBeContinued!! The devil, in his usual devious ways, has made a crafty smoke screen by keeping people's minds focusing on born-again televangelists, instead of championing against true heresy -
(going back to reading now ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
For those who can't wait to see me go... not to worry, I'll be outta here for at least a week starting Thursday night )
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
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From His Grace "It would be great if we could have just one thread without being obsessed and pre-occupied with talking about WOF'ers, but I guess not. BTW I don't get TBN."
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
We didnt start this thread or bring up the WOF's in it HIS Grace.
I was referring to the following slur that was directed at me by a fellow brother.
quote:
From Wparr -
HiGrace - What is so twisted in your thinking.
It seems like you have an permament bad attitude towards all who expose and uncover your precious TBN/WOF false teachers, that you look for things to jump on that aren't there so you twist what is said to beable to jump on it
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
But I do not agree with the implication that this is the "real" heresy and what is going on in the church is not heresy.
The scripture clearly warns of false teachers, with in the church.
I never said that there is no heresy in the church. Anyway, where did you get the idea that heresy was of the church only?
Heresy (n)-any opinion or belief that challenges deeply established social, political, or religious views.
The shocking revelations in The DaVinci Code are the ultimate in heresy.
"Counterfeit Code
by James A. Beverley, Ph.D.
Dan Brown's novel The Da Vinci Code has sold over 25 million copies and been translated into 40 languages. The book attacks the central teachings of the Gospel. The Da Vinci Code needs to be disarmed . . . and you can help.
Your friends and neighbors and family members are being led astray by Dan Brown's theories. They are being misled about the true Christ and historic Gospel. The fantasies, mistakes and misinterpretations of The Da Vinci Code are confusing millions of people - and they need to know the truth. The novel teaches:
-Jesus was not divine
-Jesus and Mary Magdalene were lovers
-Christianity was originally a sex cult
-The Bible is unreliable
-Constantine invented the Trinity
-Witchcraft and paganism represent the true Gospel
-An ancient secret society once led by Leonardo Da Vinci protected all these ideas
Know the real history. Discover the blunders of The Da Vinci Code.
See for yourself how The Da Vinci Code cashes in on ignorance and gullibility. Pass on to others the truth about the claims that have so many people wondering about their faith in the Bible and Jesus Christ.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
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HosGrace! Why do you put words in people's mouths? Please try not to put words in my mouth.
quote:
HG TO HFHS: I never said that there is no heresy in the church.
I dont recall saying that you did. You do keep pointing to heresy outside the church and saying it is the "real" heresy as did Jim in this thread.
quote:
HG to HFHS: Anyway, where did you get the idea that heresy was of the church only?
Where did you get the idea that I did??? I clearly stated on more than one occasion that I believed that the Divinci Code was heresy in the world. I said there is much heresy in the world. How could there not be.
What I also said is these scriptures that speak to false teachers speak to those who speak heresy and are in the church.
This would probably be closer to my definition of heresy or rather my understanding of heresy:
HER'ESY, n. [Gr. to take, to hold; L. haeresis.]
1. A fundamental error in religion, or an error of opinion respecting some fundamental doctrine of religion.
But in countries where there is an established church, an opinion is deemed heresy, when it differs from that of the church.
The Scriptures being the standard of faith, any opinion that is repugnant to its doctrines, is heresy;
In Scripture and primitive usage,heresy meant merely sect, party, or the doctrines of a sect, as we now use denomination or persuasion, implying no reproach.
2. Heresy, in law, is an offense against christianity, consisting in a denial of some of its essential doctrines, publicly avowed and obstinately maintained.
3. An untenable or unsound opinion or doctrine in politics.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
HosGrace! Why do you put words in people's mouths? Please try not to put words in my mouth.
quote:
HG TO HFHS: I never said that there is no heresy in the church.
From HFHS -I dont recall saying that you did.
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
But I do not agree with the implication that this is the "real" heresy and what is going on in the church is not heresy.
This is pretty clear to me. I know you love to argue and to try and pin me into a corner, HFHS. Sorry, I'm in no mood for your games - not this time.
Posted by ToBeContinued (Member # 4639) on
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Misused???
Well - If yo say so, however I would contend that you may want to do a little more research on whatyou know about the people I mentioned prior to stating that they deny Christ.
What I find so terribly sad is that no matter what, everyone jumps on the band wagon to attack these people, while making NO commentary on the one thing most important -
MANY MANY false teachers have been torn down swiftly, yet the ones I mention who have NOT been torn down, who are in fact doing SO MUCH good...
Why not talk about why they have not been removed?
Why not discuss why God has allowed these heretics to continue?
Do you think Joel Osteen takes a paycheck from his church?
He does not. How do I know? Because I have been involved directly.
Where does he get an income? From sales of his books and materials.
Do you know that he was ready to quit? When his dad died, he was going to quit and not take on the role of pastor.
Yet, something happened when he was ready to do this - SECULAR television, who at that time NEVER allowed ANY religous broadcasts during prime times (Fox, BET, etc) notified their ministry that they were ready to offer Lakewood Church PRIME TIME spots, ALL WEEK long, and at almost NO COST!!
He believed this was a sign from God and a nudge to ensure he did not quit.
So, he decided to take it on, and by the way -
Just so you know - Yes, their new Compaq center, which is MUCH MUCH more than a church (A community center that does MOUNTAINS of good for the community) cost nearly 100 million dollars to build, but do you know what he did in order to ensure that the money was raised?
He refused to be paid a paycheck, and sowed the resources they had into other churches, ministries, and missions...They had 7 million at the time - Shortly after this decision, they were blessed with 45 million - 10 of which was immediately sown into the above mentioned areas again, and again they were blessed - This time with promise from the city of Houston to ensure that the legal hassles going on with the center would be appeased.
They continue to sow millions upon millions -
Say what you will, but their IS a reason why they still stand - Much IS expected when MUCH is given, and they have modeled this over and over again.
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
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Amen, brother ToBeContinued, wasn't it you who said something about the deadpanning Lutheran or Episcopalian church or some of those "don't be shoutin' too loud for Jesus now, this is a respectable church, or you'll have to leave, okay?" kind of place? I think it was you.
Didn't Jesus say that not one sheep that my Father gives Me will be lost?
Look, God knows what condition man is in; apparently some here think that they are still in pretty good shape compared to others, but God will set it all straight and pure in the end, He's is enjoying Himself watching us work with Him as His co-laborers.
But in the end, this relationship between God and saved sinners, will be seen to have been much like a human father playmaking with his 3 year old baby boy behind the wheel of daddy's Dodge Magnum, as if the baby boy is actually driving. We don't mind doing that for the little boy.
And in the end, when all is said and done, we bornagain Christians will have turned out to be 3-year-old babies whom the LORD put behind the wheel of salvation of the sheep for a bit, until the Father sets it all aright, for good this time.
May the LORD God of Israel bless all who participate here. I am BORN AGAIN in the USA by the ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
of Lord God Yeshua-Jesus.
"we know God isn't interested in our natural badness; but did you know that God isn't interested in our natural goodness either?"
of Jesus
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
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sister helpforhomeschoolers writes quote:
I agree that the DaVinci Code is heresy. What I don't understand is why we expect anything less out of the world.
Regarding that bolded sentence, this is probably where you and I disagree. You tend to see the heresy as being in the church, and I tend to see the heresy outside the church. And it ties in with this other statement you made: quote:
The scripture clearly warns of false teachers, with in the church.
I think where you and I differ on this is that I think that this last scripture applied to the early church and the separation from the Mosaic system.
It took quite a while for the church to separate out from the Mosaic system since the church was now composed, neither of Jews nor of Greeks, but of a third kind of person, a bornagain person.
It was a major shock to everyone in Israel-Judah that Jesus was the new Mosaic system and that the Mosaic system had been a figure or pattern of what and who Jesus would be later.
Once Jesus Himself came, the Mosaic system was done away with. The books of the Bible were not yet cannonized or assembled in their final compilation, so there was lots of danger from Judaizers, even Christian Judaizers who still maintained that one still had to follow the law of Moses also.
It was a dangerous period and a major struggle, which our beloved brother Saul-Paul of Tarsus knows all too well. Paul was telling them, the bornagain third kind of persons to whom Paul was speaking, "Beware! For false teachers will try to get you to believe in another Jesus and try to take away the liberty which we have in Christ, and so on".
But once the church of the bornagain was well-separated from the Mosaic system and the New Testament has been well settled as an available and checkable set of books, that dangerous "false teachers" period for the early church was past.
The people in the church of the bornagain are, well, all bornagain, neither Jew nor Gentile, and a third kind of person. None of them are trying to get anybody to UNBELIEF in Jesus and to return to the MOSAIC SYSTEM?
The Copelands and Osteens and Myers are all bornagain third kind of persons and are neither Jew nor Gentile.
So helpforhomeschoolers, when you say this:sister helpforhomeschoolers writes quote:
I agree that the DaVinci Code is heresy. What I don't understand is why we expect anything less out of the world.
then I want to say that the world IS the only problem and threat to people getting to know Jesus. Not the church of the bornagain.
Lucifer-Satan runs the world and it is he who will throw up all sorts of fakes and heresies and lies and psychic stories and channelings and V for Vengeance movies and hold "scientific" meetings about how the Christians and Islam and Jews need to be killed so we can get on with this society.
(Lucifer-Satan will throw his own religion Islam in with the ones he actually hates, since Lucifer-Satan knows that Islam is his own creation anyway.)
helpforhomeschoolers, let me ask you something, "you were saved from the world, right? you were not saved from the church, right?"
Don't worry about the church. Numerous people in church bring Bibles with them. Numerous teachers on TV have their congregation open up their Bibles with the preacher or the teacher and they even read it together. They are all part of the church of the bornagain; they are now neither Jew nor Gentile.
sister helpforhomeschoolers, wake up, it is the world that denies Christ and Jesus, and not the church!
Sure, in the church of the bornagain are a bunch of saved sinners who now have access to the Holy Spirit, hello-o, that does not make them automatically perfect little Jesuses, does it?
As I said earlier in another post, God watches us saved sinners help Him with His Great Work on earth, but in the end He will set it all up straight as it should have been set up, but He enjoyed watching us try our best. For now we see in part and understand in part, but then, face to face.
Below is some more of you: quote:
Walk in any public school and you will find heresy. The world denies Jesus and the Bible. In perhaps every college in this nation heresy is being spoken every day. It is printed in our textbooks.
Maybe I missed something but is Dan Brown a professing Christian? Does he shepherd a flock?
I agree absolutely that Christians ought stay away from the Da Vinci Code and speak against this kind of garbage.
But I do not agree with the implication that this is the "real" heresy and what is going on in the church is not heresy.
sister, if someone is in the church they are a bornagain third kind of man, neither Jew nor Gentile. Is there heresy in being in the church, though some of what it is taught is foolishly misrepresented? But God will set it right later.
Jesus said, "not one sheep of all that the Father gives me will be lost." Have faith in that statement. God and Jesus have things even now under total control. God and Jesus are superthankful over the ones who have made it out of the world and into the church. sister, the church needs to be protected from attacks emanating out of the world, not from brothers and sisters within in the church, even when, being children, they are misguided at times.
with love, BORN AGAIN by the of Yeshua-Jesus
"who you fishin' fur? who you fishin' fur?"
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
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quote:
Matthew 7:15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
quote:
Acts 20:29For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Apparently I need to Clarify why I posted this... This quote is to Try Once Again to show that Heresy would come from WITHIN the Church
Posted by ToBeContinued (Member # 4639) on
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quote:
Bornagain writes -
Jesus said, "not one sheep of all that the Father gives me will be lost." Have faith in that statement. God and Jesus have things even now under total control. God and Jesus are superthankful over the ones who have made it out of the world and into the church. sister, the church needs to be protected from attacks emanating out of the world, not from brothers and sisters within in the church, even when, being children, they are misguided at times.
AMEN Born Again!!
quote:
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
My point exactly - Man do they have ALOT of good fruit!! (A for instance is Lakewood Church I mean)
Everyone knows them for their massive amounts of fruit, and their tree keeps getting bigger and greener - The more they sow seed, the more that tree produces massive amounts of fruit.
Again I would ask where is all of this supposed bad fruit you speak of and make reference to Gods Holy Word as though it were speaking about them?
Oh, you mean Benny Hinn from 1989 or 1977?
Well, I am referring to Lakewood right now -
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
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quote:
This is pretty clear to me. I know you love to argue and to try and pin me into a corner, HFHS. Sorry, I'm in no mood for your games - not this time.
Excuse me. The post that you keep quoting is a direct response to Jim. It is what I have to say about this thread. It clearly addresses the point JIM, not you made in this thread, This thread's topic implies that the "real" Heresy is things like the Da Vinci Code and not things like what Osteen and Meyer are doing.
To that I reply: I agree with all you have said, but I disagree with the implication that one is the "real" heresy and the other is not.
What is your problem HisGrace???
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
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BA: you brought up some good points that I would like to speak to but I am outta here early this am. It is gonna be a long day, but if I get home early enough to night, I'll try to get back to them. I have some comments but also some questions regarding what you have said.
Jim: You and I will I fear never find common ground on this one, we will have to agree to disagree; we have different ideas about what fruitful is to God, and about what makes a local congregation successful for lack of a better way to put it, in God's eyes and probably even different ideas on what the purpose of the local church is. There is no doubt that the gift that Cain brought was a fine presentation of grain.
I know you were talking to Walt above, but on this.... this would make for good discussion. I dont have time this morning but I am sure walt or some of the others here can answer this. IF not maybe I will get time tonight or tomorrow.
quote:
Why not talk about why they have not been removed?
Why not discuss why God has allowed these heretics to continue?
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
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Thanks ToBeContinued and BornAgain - we need more posts like that!!!
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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quote:
then I want to say that the world IS the only problem and threat to people getting to know Jesus. Not the church of the bornagain.
Don't worry about the church. Numerous people in church bring Bibles with them. Numerous teachers on TV have their congregation open up their Bibles with the preacher or the teacher and they even read it together. They are all part of the church of the bornagain; they are now neither Jew nor Gentile.
BA, not everyone that says Lord, Lord are members of the "ecclesia"!
BA remember the scriptures talk about sheep and goats.
BA, please show me one scripture in the New Testament where the Apostles or Yeshua was concerned with what was happening out side the "ecclesia" ?
quote:
From His Grace "It would be great if we could have just one thread without being obsessed and pre-occupied with talking about WOF'ers, but I guess not. BTW I don't get TBN."
who is "BTW"?
Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on
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I haven't been engaged in these discussions regarding heresies and various preachers and the church and the world, but I would suggest that Matthew's collection of several of Jesus' parables regarding "the kingdom of heaven" in the 13th chapter of his gospel has much to teach us. Jesus teaches about those who "see" and "hear"; the "sower" and those who "receive" the "seed" and the "soil"; the "field", the "enemy", the "wheat", and "weeds", and the "harvesters, the things that are to be "burned" and those that are to brought into God's "barn. I'm sure that each of us are included somewhere in this teaching.
Note that in the parable of the weeds quote:
Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.
(Matt 13:30)
Then Jesus adds this explanation quote:
The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
(Matt 13:39)
The differences between "wheat" and "weeds" may be obvious to most of us, but I don't believe that any of us are the "angels" that have the responsibility or the authority to gather in the "crop".
I have learned that the signs of God's kingdom and the marks of God's work in the world are seen and implemented in the "fields" where these spiritual gifts are manifested: the "gospel" is preached , individuals are attracted to it and changed from it by the power of the Holy Spirit the primary person being promoted is always Jesus the work is being done by disciples (learners) who are working together in loving harmony in teams and there is a lot of frequent prayers and praise being offered to God for the process
I don't know about the rest of you and these other "servants" that are examined in this posts, but the challenge of these "marks" for "servants" in God's kingdom are enough for me.
My call is to serve God with the gifts that He has given to me so that others will see and experience God's loving glory in Jesus, His Son, letting the judgments regarding my work/offering to be made by his "angels" and Jesus himself at "the end of the age".
I would encourage each of us to really seek to reflect the glory of God in Jesus Christ, recognizing that it will not be the worldly crowds that we will attract but the "few" sinners who are humble enough to repent and to trust Jesus completely for their salvation.
It is important to be able to discern the "truth" of God's word and the wisdom of His teachings from all of the heresies that are being taught and promoted throughout the world, but our primary commission and calling is to "witness" to God's glory in Jesus Christ. I believe that God's Holy Spirit is the primary agent of this discernment and that He is a work within the Church, Jesus' "body", and within the world to prepare the peoples of the world for His "harvest". My prayer is that I will be faithful in my calling, that others may see some of Jesus in my life and minstry. May God bless each of us in our respective ministries.
Posted by ToBeContinued (Member # 4639) on
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Sounds great Linda!!
I am very interested in your replies, and absolutely I agree we should agree to disagree : )
I am ok with that!!
BTW means "By the Way" -
I would be curious to see if there is any discussion regarding the info I gave specific to Joel Osteen and how they started after his dad died -
And, as Linda pointed out - I am interested in replies to my above posts -
God bless you all!!
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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TB125, good to here from you,
As a student of the scriptures you must make Scripture agree with Scripture.
While I can not judge who is Born Again and who is not Born Again, I can judge if someone is not living as they should.
Take for example the man that was sleeping with his mother in Scripture
1Cr 5:1 It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife……
1Cr 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
“In his letter to the church at Corinth, Paul commanded those Christians to deliver a sinful brother ‘unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh’
Now you have to make Scripture agree with Scripture, there is no private interpretation.
In this section of the apostle’s letter, he deals with a gross example of immorality in the Corinthian church. A man had become sexually intimate with his stepmother (the language is very precise - his “father’s wife,” as opposed to his own “mother”). The church members were not offended by the sordid situation; rather, they gloried in it. Such compromise called for the sternest rebuke. Deliver the offending brother to Satan for “the destruction of the flesh.”
“Deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” The destruction of the flesh is a remedial procedure, the design of which is for the man’s salvation. There is no redemptive value in mere death! A man put to death hardly has the opportunity for reformation.
The expression “deliver such a one unto Satan” is the equivalent of “put away the wicked man from among yourselves” (v. 13). It is a biblical idiom for the severing of Christian fellowship. It represents a dramatic expression of the literal formula, “have no company with” (v. 9), or the more specific admonition “with such a one do not even eat” (v. 11), i.e., refrain from ordinary social fraternization with such a one (cf. 2 Thes. 3:6).
One must note that Hymenaeus and Alexander had been “delivered unto Satan” in order that “they might be taught not to blaspheme” (1 Tim. 1:20). If the “deliverance” was death, how does the subsequent clause make any sense? It was not anticipated that these gentleman would be doing post-mortem blasphemy!
What then, is the meaning of that ambiguous phrase, “for the destruction of the flesh”?
The sense almost certainly is this: Turn the man over to Satan (i.e., back into the world community of debauchery), that he may reap the consequences of his rebellion (whatever physical and/or emotional disadvantages that might involve), along with distressing estrangement from a warm, loving association with the church. Under such circumstances of distress, if there were a remnant of conscience remaining, the rogue brother might well learn to “destroy” his baser, “fleshly” urges, and thus be reclaimed for the Savior’s cause.
I Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
In telling the church to "deliver" him unto Satan they were basically doing what we would call excommunication from the assembly. In doing this, he is now in the realm of Satan. Paul says that the devil will have access to him and have the ability to destroy his flesh during this time. The ulitmate goal or aim of this punishment is that the man's spirit will be saved. The intent is that the man will experience the chastening of the Lord and see how rotten things are living in the devil's domain (remember the prodigal son, who in the hogpen came to his senses?) and repent and be restored. The implication here is that the devil does not have unlimited access to those in the church! The psalmist describes the one who "dwells in the secret place of the Most High." John also describes a place of protection where the enemy does not have unlimited access to us. (This is not to say that God will not allow the enemy to tempt us and test us from time to time because we know from scripture that the devil will indeed be allowed to bring trials although only with the Father's permission).
I John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not
Notice the importance of community here. We are probably all familiar with the story of Cain and Abel. Even more famous are Cain's words "am I my brother's keeper?" Well, if you are a Christian, then you do indeed have a responsibility to watch over your brothers and sisters in the Lord. Notice in the above passage the importance of intercession on behalf of sinning brothers. Also see that there is a place of safety for those walking in this type of obedience and interdependance (the wicked one touches him not).
Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted
From time to time, true Christians will find themselves in need of restoration. Without the help of the local church, how is this ever to take place? Those in the community of faith have a responsibility to watch over their brothers and sisters and go to them when they see them fallen. The scripture also says we are to "know them that labor among us" (I Thess 5:12). Again I ask, how is this possible if only through the medium of television or chat rooms (where most people choose to communicate through pen names or anonymous means anyway)? Restoration necessitates that one be intimately acquainted with those in need. The Apostle James tells us that we have a responsibility to turn an erring brother back to the fold.
James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Again, without the aid and assistance of the local fellowship, this command becomes almost impossible to obey. However we have an obligation to bring the erring brother back to the fold if at all possible. Christ taught a message about the shepherd who left the 99 in order to find the one sheep who had "wandered" away (Matthew 18:12). Unfortunately sheep (and we Christians are referred to as sheep) are not very bright creatures. Sometimes they do wander from the fold. It is very important that they be brought back into the flock so that the wolves and other predators do not destroy them. This brings me to my last, and probably most important point. Failure to assemble with other believers can lead to apostacy. Let's take a look from the book of Hebrews.
Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hebrews is a book that speaks of the supremacy of Christ's perfect once-for-all sacrifice. The book makes many references to the Old Testament and shows that Christ is the fulfillment of everything prophesied in the O.T. In addition to the author's theme of the inferiority of Judaism to Christianity, he also warns of the dangers of apostacy. There are several hortatory warnings against apostacy in the book of Hebrews. I listed just one of them above. In the verse I posted above, we see that failure to assemble with other Christians has always been an issue for "some". The devil loves it when Christians are isolated because they are easy prey. Sheep are vulnerable when they are separated from the flock and the loving care of a shepherd. While it is true that ultimately Christ is the Great Shepherd of the sheep- He also uses the local pastor as an undershepherd. We know this is true because it is written:
Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Those who fail to commit and submit to a local assembly are in violation of the New Testament pattern for worship. As I said earlier, there is a strong trend to try and discredit the need for local assembly. Christianity by nature is communal. That doesn't mean that we all have to live together on a compound or under the same roof. In heaven and the millenial kingdom of Christ, there will be no autonomy. We will operate and function as an orderly kingdom of priests unto God. Those who do not wish to assemble with other Christians become candidates for apostacy. I know this isn't popular but it is true nonetheless. In Christ's parable of the sower, He warned that apostacy is indeed possible.
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away
In light of the fact that it is indeed possible to 'believe for a while" and then afterward fall away- the dangers of neglecting fellowship with other believers is all the more perilous. Notice in Hebrews 10 that the author says not only should we be meeting together regularly but "so much more as we see the Day approaching." As we see the nearness of the coming of the Lord and the fulfillment of bible prophesy-as we see the world getting darker and darker- the need for Christian fellowship and exhortation becomes more necessary than ever before!
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
I would like to focus on the original intent of this thread. quote:
Originally posted by ToBeContinued:
However, we DO have REAL HERESY among us today, in the form of VERY POPULAR belief systems now being introduced such as the DaVinci Code and The Beast Movie.
These set out to DENY CHRIST and his deity, period. This is REAL Heresy.
We are more than aware of the heresy in many churches, but ToBeContinued is drawing our attention to another very dangerous heresy.
This is just a tiny sample of the shocking heresy in the secular world. These accusations are out of the pit of hell and I find them extremely disturbing. In yesterday's paper:
quote:
Jesus denies he was son of God, author claims -
Michael Baigent's The Jesus Papers tries to strip Jesus of his divinity by claiming that he wrote a letter to a Jewish court denying he was the son of God. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
It also suggests there is evidence that Christ survived the crucifixion and that his death was faked as a cover to allow him to escape his enemies. Pontius Pilate, the Roman procurator of Judea who sentenced him to death is said to have aided and abetted the mock execution because Jesus had told the Jews to pay their taxes.
"It was rigged, It was a fraud" he says. "I think the crucifixion was set up to remove a partiular political problem which both Pilate and Jesus found themselves in.
He believes Jesus may have been drugged to reduce the trauma of being on the cross.
After recuperating, Jesus and his wife travelled to upper Egypt and taught mystical lore
Baigant claims he has documented proof of all of this garbage. How can anyone even think of making jest of the terrible suffering Jesus went through for us on that cruel cross. God must be weeping when he thinks of how he reluctantly allowed Jesus to be sacrificed and tortured in such an unbelievable manner to pay the price for our sins.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
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The Divinci Code, the Jesus Papers, the Book of Judas, all these are true downright and the REAL heresies.
Did not Jesus command his disciples to : [b]Go ye into all the world.....and preach the gospel to every creature?"]/b]
Yes these heresies are in the world.
There are cults which preach a different Jesus. The Mormons, the JW"s and New Agers.
Then we have the churches( all the varieties and denominations.) They DO preach the Gsopel of Salvation. and name Christ as the only WAY.
Some do not preach the Gospel, they preach a true social gospel of Humanism such as in the Universalist Church.
The name of JESUS WILL either draw people or repel them. So people pick the church they can tolerate the best. That's My opinion.
Jesus sends us into the WORLD. He doesn't sent us into the CHURCH.
THE CHURCH ALREADY PREACHES THE GOSPEL.
Unfortunately the Church expects the World to come to them.
WE are supposed to GO INTO THE WORLD.
I'm starting to feel that most of us Christians are too wrapped up in our own little worlds of playing church, we don't fulfill the Great Commission.
WE don't go into the World with funeral dirge type songs and explaining that once one becomes a Christian you are going to BE MADE TO PARTAKE OF CHRIST'S SUFFERINGS AND NEVER HAVE ANY MORE FUN IN LIFE, BECAUSE NOW THAT YOU'RE A CHRISTIAN AND GOING TO HEAVEN, YOU MUST NOT EXPECT ANYTHING GOOD ANYMORE FROM YOUR LIFE AND ONLY WAIT UNTIL YOU GET TO HEAVEN.
SUFFER SUFFER SUFFER. THAT'S OUR MOTTO.
I guess that's the true gospel of those who are against Meyers, Copeland and the like.
Maybe we need to get back to hellfire and dammnation and teaching people to be grateful that God offers them a chance to not go to Hell.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
WE don't go into the World with funeral dirge type songs and explaining that once one becomes a Christian you are going to BE MADE TO PARTAKE OF CHRIST'S SUFFERINGS AND NEVER HAVE ANY MORE FUN IN LIFE, BECAUSE NOW THAT YOU'RE A CHRISTIAN AND GOING TO HEAVEN, YOU MUST NOT EXPECT ANYTHING GOOD ANYMORE FROM YOUR LIFE AND ONLY WAIT UNTIL YOU GET TO HEAVEN.
SUFFER SUFFER SUFFER. THAT'S OUR MOTTO.
I guess that's the true gospel of those who are against Meyers, Copeland and the like.
I believe it is a clever ploy of the devil to make us think that we are supposed to be miserable and unhappy all of the time. Don't you even think about 'feeling good.'
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
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Amen sister WhiteEagle! you go girl.
Posted by David (Member # 1) on
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>>> I believe it is a clever ploy of the devil to make us think that we are supposed to be miserable and unhappy all of the time. Don't you even think about 'feeling good.'
I am sorry you are so miserable. I know I sure am not. God has bless my socks off. You really don't know what your talking about. But I guess I am blessed because I don't have to thank about me all the time asking for more and more and more blessings. Give me, give me, give me..... I know having to ask and ask and ask because you always want more has to wear you out.
All I need to feel good is know that Jesus Christ has paid my sin dept and I am so bless that it does not matter what I have but that I am in the will of God. God is not here to serve you, but you He. He is not your genie in the sky there to grant your every wish.
Wonder why Paul could sing in prison. I bet it is because he was happy with what God gave him and did not think he was so good he should have it all. If you know Jesus and what he did for you on the cross, that is all you should need. Are you ever happy with what God gives you or do you think you think you are better then Paul and need it all and need it NOW.
Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. Philippians 4:11-13
1 Timothy 6:6-12
But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
Don't preach your false Prosperity Gospel lie on this message board. If you want to do that go somewhere else.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by David: re statement by HisGrace -
>>> I believe it is a clever ploy of the devil to make us think that we are supposed to be miserable and unhappy all of the time. Don't you even think about 'feeling good.'
From David -I am sorry you are so miserable. I know I sure am not. God has bless my socks off. You really don't know what your talking about.
You misunderstood me David. I was referring to the remarks by some on this board that the only message we hear from the televangliests are 'feel good' messages that tickle our ears. I don't quote scriptures like "With God all things are possible" anymore, because I would be jumped on immediately for being a WOF'er lover.
Posted by David (Member # 1) on
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Well I guess I should have put the below at the top of my post:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
WE don't go into the World with funeral dirge type songs and explaining that once one becomes a Christian you are going to BE MADE TO PARTAKE OF CHRIST'S SUFFERINGS AND NEVER HAVE ANY MORE FUN IN LIFE, BECAUSE NOW THAT YOU'RE A CHRISTIAN AND GOING TO HEAVEN, YOU MUST NOT EXPECT ANYTHING GOOD ANYMORE FROM YOUR LIFE AND ONLY WAIT UNTIL YOU GET TO HEAVEN.
SUFFER SUFFER SUFFER. THAT'S OUR MOTTO.
I guess that's the true gospel of those who are against Meyers, Copeland and the like.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
quote:
>>> I believe it is a clever ploy of the devil to make us think that we are supposed to be miserable and unhappy all of the time. Don't you even think about 'feeling good.'
I am sorry you are so miserable. I know I sure am not. God has bless my socks off. You really don't know what your talking about. But I guess I am blessed because I don't have to thank about me all the time asking for more and more and more blessings. Give me, give me, give me..... I know having to ask and ask and ask because you always want more has to wear you out.
All I need to feel good is know that Jesus Christ has paid my sin dept and I am so bless that it does not matter what I have but that I am in the will of God. God is not here to serve you, but you He. He is not your genie in the sky there to grant your every wish.
Wonder why Paul could sing in prison. I bet it is because he was happy with what God gave him and did not think he was so good he should have it all. If you know Jesus and what he did for you on the cross, that is all you should need. Are you ever happy with what God gives you or do you think you think you are better then Paul and need it all and need it NOW.
Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. Philippians 4:11-13
1 Timothy 6:6-12
But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
Don't preach your false Prosperity Gospel lie on this message board. If you want to do that go somewhere else.
Yes, EXACTLY!!!! AMEN AMEN AMEN!!!!
Posessing nothing and having all things! Is that not the power of God?? To be seated with HIM in the heavenlies, blessed with all spiritual blessing, content, come what may in this life!
PEACE... the Peace that Passeth Understanding, POWER and JOY in the Holy Ghost! In the HOLY GHOST not in the corruptible things of this world!
Oh, Hallelujah, your preaching good tonight David! Amen Brother! Amen! Thank you!
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
:
someone on my side of the "exposing" forum said to me, "I don't understand where they are coming from?"
The difference seems to be that the "exposing" Christians think that the false teachers verses refer to our time, whereas I think the false teacher verses refer to the first century when the church was in peril during the long transition period of separating from the Mosaic system.
There were numerous false teachers, well-meaning Christian Judaizers, who could not believe that we as Christians had "liberty in Christ" and were set free from the law thru what Jesus did on the cross, so that eternal life is now a free gift.
Understandably, the Jews had a huge difficult time understanding that, even Christians, so Christian Judaizers were constantly creeping in and trying to draw believers back into the Mosaic system.
This was especially dangerous while the books of the NT were still not collated or compiled or cannonized.
But once the separation had been successfully made and once the books were established, the worst of it was over, and now the enemies of the faith in Jesus are OUTSIDE the church while people like sister SoftTouch insist "oh no, the Bible says the false teachers are WITHIN the church".
IMO, anyone who has accepted the basics about Jesus is still IN the church and therefore has eternal life unless they at some point in their life stop believing in Jesus's sacrifice. But they have their own Bible, let them be responsible.
But if they keep believing the basics about Jesus, and practically all of them do, then according to 1 Corinthians 3:1-3, whatever doctrine they build on top of the basics, will either be shown to have been correct by the Lord when He comes or not correct, but no one will lose their salvation over at least "trying" to figure out spiritual life.
As Jesus said to the disciples:
John 6:39
And this is the Father's will who has sent Me, that of all whom He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
If that be the undisputable case, then we are like 3-year-olds quibbling about who is pleasing daddy more today than him or her. God, like a human father, will straighten it all out like we straighten out a playroom and put things back on the shelves again.
with love, BORN AGAIN in the USA by the of Lord God Yeshua-Jesus
"I am persuaded that He will lose no one"
God bless, BORN AGAIN
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
:
QUOTE] HisGrace,
I would like to focus on the original intent of this thread. [/QUOTE]
The Da Vinci Code:
What is The Da Vinci Code?
The Da Vinci Code is a novel by Dan Brown that has held one of the top two or three places on best-seller lists since early summer. More than 3 million copies are in print.
In Brown's novel, the "Da Vinci code" refers to cryptic messages supposedly incorporated by Leonardo Da Vinci into his artwork. According to the novel, Leonardo was a member of an ancient secret society called the "Priory of Sion" dedicated to preserving the "truths" that Jesus designated Mary Magdalene as His successor, that His message was about the celebration of the "sacred feminine," that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were married and had children and that the Holy Grail of legend and lore is really Mary Magdalene, the "sacred feminine," the vessel who carried Jesus' children.
Sounds like an intriguing bit of lost history. Is it? Long story short: No.
Is the Holy Grail really the "sacred feminine?"
The legend of the Holy Grail has taken many forms throughout history, but it has always identified the Grail as the cup Jesus used at the Last Supper. The idea of identifying it as the "sacred feminine" and tying it into a supposed bloodline emanating from a union of Jesus and Mary Magdalene is lifted whole cloth from the 1981 classic of inventive esoteric wackiness, Holy Blood, Holy Grail.
Is the "Priory of Sion" a real group?
No. Brown begins his book with a statement, under the title "Fact," that there are documents supporting the existence of the Priory in the Bibliotheque Nationale. These documents have long been understood to be forgeries, placed in the archives by an anti-Semitic supporter of the Vichy government named Pierre Plantard.
Does Da Vinci's The Last Supper really contain a code?
No. First, the idea that Da Vinci used any kind of code pertaining to any issue Dan Brown raises is unsupported by art historians.
Brown says that in this painting Da Vinci is telling us that the figure always identified as John the Evangelist is really Mary Magdalene, and that these two figures together form an "M," and that, because there is no grail in the picture, Da Vinci is telling us the "grail" is the sacred feminine of Mary Magdalene.
Unfortunately for Brown, art historians tell us that the effeminate-looking John is quite a typical representation for the time, as is a Last Supper portrayal emphasizing betrayal rather than the institution of the Eucharist. In addition, the Last Supper is a dramatization of a scene from the Gospel of John, in which the institution narrative is not even described. No chalice? No problem. In context, it makes sense.
Who was Mary Magdalene according to the Scriptures?
St. Mary Magdalene is mentioned 12 times in the Gospels. She was healed of demon possession by Jesus (Luke 8:2), was present at the Crucifixion and the tomb and was sent by the Risen Jesus to the apostles to announce the Good News. Her feast day is celebrated July 22. (this in parenthesis is added by becauseHElives, this paragraph is Roman Catholic mumbo jumbo, all special dates of Saints are lies from the pit of hell)
Who was Mary Magdalene according to Dan Brown?
Brown says Mary Magdalene was of royal blood, of the tribe of Benjamin, and Jesus' wife. According to Brown, after the crucifixion, Mary, pregnant with Jesus' child, moved to France and became the root of the Merovingian royal family.
He also says Jesus intended for Mary to be the head of his Church (celebrating the sacred feminine, remember) but that Peter wrested power from her, suppressed evidence of Jesus' real intentions and set into motion a 2,000-year conspiracy to demonize Mary Magdalene.
But Mary Magdalene is honored as a saint in the Catholic Church. How is that "demonizing?"
Don't ask me. What is true is that in the sixth century, Pope Gregory the Great conflated the figures of Mary Magdalene, the penitent woman in Luke 7, and Mary, the sister of Martha and Lazarus, saying that before her conversion, Mary had been a prostitute or adulteress. This has always been a disputed identification, however. Church Fathers from St. Ambrose to St. Thomas Aquinas have been undecided on the issue, and in the Eastern Church, the three are seen as distinct figures. This question has never been pushed underground, either, as Dan Brown claims.
So, who is Dan Brown? ,
He is a former English teacher who began full-time writing in 1996. His second novel, Angels and Demons, featured the Illuminati, a vial of anti-matter and a papal conclave. He holds no advanced degrees in religion.
What's the basis for Brown's views on Mary Magdalene and her competition with Peter?
All that Holy Blood, Holy Grail stuff, of course, but then there are also the Gnostic Gospels.
Gnosticism was a dualistic, esoteric mode of thinking that was widespread during the early Christian era, although its influence was not confined to Christianity. The Gnostic Gospels are works reflecting the Gnostic take on Christianity. Some have been known for centuries, but previously unknown works — in the Nag Hammadi scrolls — were discovered in Egypt in 1945.
Some modern scholars and religious writers have seized upon various passages from the Gnostic Gospels as indicative of a competing, woman-centered element of early Christianity, especially a passage from The Gospel of Mary in which Jesus kisses Mary and the apostles express envy of His love for her. Brown works this thinking into his novel, but, like many others, ignores a deeply anti-woman passage from another Gnostic gospel, the Gospel of Thomas, in which Jesus says, "For every woman who will make herself male will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven."
Gnosticism was rejected by Christianity, but not because of gender issues. Its claims (two gods, a belief that the created world was evil) were simply inconsistent with the rule of faith, as it was called, handed down from the apostles.
The canonical Gospels all date from the middle to late first century. The Gnostic gospels cannot be placed any earlier than the mid-second century. It is ironic, as historian James Hitchcock has pointed out, that elements of a profession that have for years derided the Gospels as unreliable history have now seized on later documents as reliable guides to Jesus' intentions.
Were Jesus and Mary Magdalene married?
Dan Brown has one of his fictional scholars say it's a "matter of historical record." No nonfictional scholars would claim this. The "historical record" to which Brown refers are those 20th-century conspiracy books, not early Christian historical records.
Are Mary Magdalene's bones buried within the glass pyramid structure at the Louvre, as Brown presents it at the end of his novel?
No. Many things may have been buried with the pyramid, including good taste, but Mary Magdalene's bones are not among them.
Dan Brown claims that the idea of Jesus' divinity was dreamed up by the Council of Nicaea. Is this true?
No. When you read the Gospels and the letters of Paul, all of which date from the first century, you see a clear affirmation of Jesus as Lord.
The Council of Nicaea in A.D. 325 was a response to the threat of the Arian heresy, which claimed that Jesus was a semi-divine creature, not of the same being as God. This was quickly becoming a popular belief and threatening the unity of Christianity.
The Emperor Constantine, aware that disunity in Christianity threatened the empire, convened the Council. Traditional faith was re-articulated in the more precise, philosophical terms that the heresy demanded and was accepted as the most faithful reading of the evidence about Jesus given to us in the Gospels.
Brown indicates that the Gnostic Gospels were widely accepted in early Christianity and that Constantine ordered them destroyed. Is this true?
No. The process of discerning the authentic Gospels was a lengthy one, but it had already begun in the early second century. Some communities used various other Gospels, but second-century Church Fathers frequently cited the four Gospels as authoritative. Their criteria were apostolic origins and fidelity to the rule of faith, not gender issues. Brown's conspiracy theory is a fabrication. Moreover, the final determinations about what constituted the Christian canon of Scripture were made by councils held after Constantine's time.
So, the whole "Mary vs. Peter" thing isn't true?
The historical evidence simply doesn't support it. It's based on speculation and a dramatic over-reading of a couple of passages from second-century fringe writings.
It's also illogical. Brown's argument rests on the assumption that the early apostles were concerned with suppressing the scandalous and radical. If that were so, why would they have the founder of their faith executed in manner reserved for the most shameful criminals?
It also is dependent on the assumption that Peter and his "party" were all about power. For what purpose, we have to ask? Did they get rich from their "version" of Christianity? Were they celebrated in their culture? No, they all died as despised martyrs. Some power trip.
This whole thing should fade pretty quickly, shouldn't it?
Probably not. The movie rights to The Da Vinci Code have been bought by Columbia, and Ron Howard is set to direct the film, probably to be released in 2005.
But as bad as “The Da Vinci Code “ is, it is nothing in comparison to the lies being spouted by Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyers, Benny Hinn, Rick Warren and other false teachers in the Body of Yeshua.
“The Da Vinci Code “ is on the outside trying to get in.
Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyers, Benny Hinn, Rick Warren and other false teachers in the Body of Yeshua are “the Trojan Horse” that has already been pulled inside, warriors with weapons in use unloaded from the belly of the horse.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
Sister WhiteEgale: I wanted to speak to your post; there was a lot of good points in it and one thing I was not sure I understood, if you were serious or being sarcastic, but I wanted to speak to it too.
quote:
The Divinci Code, the Jesus Papers, the Book of Judas, all these are true downright and the REAL heresies.
Yes they are! Amen.
quote:
Did not Jesus command his disciples to : Go ye into all the world.....and preach the gospel to every creature?"
Yes! He did! Can you think of any better way to combat the above heresy? I can't. To those who believe it is the power unto salvation.
quote:
Yes these heresies are in the world.
There are cults which preach a different Jesus. The Mormons, the JW"s and New Agers.
Yes, these are heresy as well; I just want to add here that we ought not forget that the Mormons and the JW began in the church.
quote:
Then we have the churches( all the varieties and denominations.) They DO preach the Gsopel of Salvation. and name Christ as the only WAY.
Some do not preach the Gospel, they preach a true social gospel of Humanism such as in the Universalist Church.
The name of JESUS WILL either draw people or repel them. So people pick the church they can tolerate the best. That's My opinion.
Amen! it is mine too!
quote:
Jesus sends us into the WORLD. He doesn't sent us into the CHURCH.
THE CHURCH ALREADY PREACHES THE GOSPEL.
Unfortunately the Church expects the World to come to them.
WE are supposed to GO INTO THE WORLD.
This is truth sister. Praise God! The assemebled church for us should be a place of ministering to each other that we can go into the world with the Gospel. The assembly is a place of caring for, teaching, sharing, learning, edifying, rebuking reproving, feeding physically and spiritually the needs of the body, fellowshipping, and loving each other, bearing each other's burdens, encouraging each other, and annointing and covering each other and sending OUT into the world. This ministry to the body by the body is worship for we are ministering to Christ... WE are HIS body!
quote:
I'm starting to feel that most of us Christians are too wrapped up in our own little worlds of playing church, we don't fulfill the Great Commission.
I agree with this! To me this speaks to "It is not about me, but about HIM." To me "playing church" is being all wrapped up in our programs and events and what I can get from church and it is supposed to be about what I can give to church (tothe body)in the form of ministering to the needs of the body that the body is cared for and can go out. God places us in the body as a gift to the body, for the ministry to the body and HE grows us and ministers to us as HE uses us to minister to our brother and sister. Is this along the lines of what you are saying or have I missed it?
quote:
WE don't go into the World with funeral dirge type songs and explaining that once one becomes a Christian you are going to BE MADE TO PARTAKE OF CHRIST'S SUFFERINGS AND NEVER HAVE ANY MORE FUN IN LIFE, BECAUSE NOW THAT YOU'RE A CHRISTIAN AND GOING TO HEAVEN, YOU MUST NOT EXPECT ANYTHING GOOD ANYMORE FROM YOUR LIFE AND ONLY WAIT UNTIL YOU GET TO HEAVEN.
Here, I dont know if you are saying we dont.. as in we shouldnt... I would like to come back to here in a moment. But here is where I am not clear what you are saying... are you being facitious? Sarcastic? Serious?
quote:
SUFFER SUFFER SUFFER. THAT'S OUR MOTTO.
I guess that's the true gospel of those who are against Meyers, Copeland and the like
As one who oppose what these teach and model, let me say that this is not the motto. Speaking now for myself, I would say that if there is a motto it would be like this: " You may well suffer, you will very likely suffer, but by the Power of God and Christ, you can be full of peace, and joy, though you be enduring much suffering."
quote:
Maybe we need to get back to hellfire and dammnation and teaching people to be grateful that God offers them a chance to not go to Hell.
I think this is true no maybe about it.
I would like to now come back to the suffering.
I personally have great concern that the church does not want to tell people that there will be suffering as a Christian. I have personally known people who expected that if they became a Christian their days of suffering would end and there life in this world would be without suffering... whether health or financial or physical, or mental. Christ is the answer to all our problems right?
Well indeed HE is! But he is not the end to our earthly suffering in this natural body and this physical mortal life.
I have great concern for those who would not tell people the truth in these matters because the Bible shows us these:
Mark 4:16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word’s sake, immediately they are offended.
Here is another group: just as an aside while we are here
18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, 19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
Now, notice that these are where the word is sown among thorns?
Now notice this: This is the fruit of the false prophet/teacher:
Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Coincidence? Perhaps. Each man can judge for himself.
Back to suffering:
These scriptures tell me that we will suffer just like anyone else would suffer:
2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
1 Thessalonians 3:3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
This one tells me that it is not outside the will of God that we suffer...
1 Peter 3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
This one tells me, how we should view suffering as a Christian:
1 Peter 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
Philippians 4:12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
Philippians 4:11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
2 Corinthians 6:10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.
Romans 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
Philippians 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Ephesians 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
This is not being miserable. This is being in the peace and joy and power of the Holy Ghost come what may in this life. This is understanding that Christ IS our life, and HE IS OUR PEACE, and HE IS our JOY, and HE IS ALWAYS! It matters not our circumstance.
Our peace and our Joy and our Hope is not in the things of this world, but in HIM ALONE. When that is the case there is nothing in under above or below or on this earth that can take our peace and our joy and our hope or make us to be miserable, because greater is he that is in us than he that is in the world.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace: (Re the DaVinci Code)
The novel teaches:
-Jesus was not divine
-Jesus and Mary Magdalene were lovers
-Christianity was originally a sex cult
-The Bible is unreliable
-Constantine invented the Trinity
-Witchcraft and paganism represent the true Gospel
-An ancient secret society once led by Leonardo Da Vinci protected all these ideas
Anyone who has been to the foot cross knows the terrible suffering that Jesus went through for our atonement, and even a whisper of flirting with the heresy of distorting that power is the height of dire sacrilige.
Asked of Dan Brown:
"BUT DOESN'T THE NOVEL'S "FACT" PAGE CLAIM THAT EVERY SINGLE WORD IN THIS NOVEL IS HISTORICAL FACT? -
If you read the "FACT" page, you will see it clearly states that the documents, rituals, organization, artwork, and architecture in the novel all exist. The "FACT" page makes no statement whatsoever about any of the ancient theories discussed by fictional characters. Interpreting those ideas is left to the reader. "
~Millions of lost and innocent souls are gobbling this novel up as gospel with wrong 'interpretations.' Shouldn't we be gravely concerned about such irresponsible writings?
The devil is upping his anti through Michael Baigant's accusations that the 'Jesus Papers' are fact.
Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on
:
Because he lives indicates that quote:
I can judge if someone is not living as they should.
Then he refers to the case of the man living with his stepmother and Paul's instructions to that church to discipline him for this severe sinful behavior. He implies from this that he and us have a responsibility to judge others, including other Christians and preachers and teachers, when their behavior and teachings are contrary to biblical principles and instructions.
He also indicates that I should quote:
make Scripture agree with Scripture.
I believe that is a good principle of biblical application and instruction. In the case of this man in Corinth, Paul was instructing the congregation in Corinth to discipline this man. He was not instructing the Christians in Ephesus or Jerusalem to do this. And he had some recognized authority and responsibility to give this congregation this instruction and direction, because he was their founding pastor. Church discipline, according to my understanding of biblical principles, is best done locally by those who are directly involved in the local ministries of the congregation. This may involve a congregation exercising discipline over a member or even its pastor, or it may extend to the displine of a pastor by an ecclesiastical body that has the administrative authority for a group of churches and their pastors.
My point is that none of us have any authority or responsibility over any of the preachers/teachers that are being criticized in these postings. They are each subject to the their local boards and congregations and to the Lord, as are most of us.
I have observed that most of the problems in the Church and in local churches are due to the failure of Christians, those in the laity and those in the pastorate, to implement their gifts for ministry as I have identified them.
One of the major problems at the local level is poor or no loving harmonious teamwork being done between the people of the congregation and their pastor or pastors. And too much attention is often given to "me", my gift or gifts, and too little attention to Jesus. Too many preachers and congregations are good at using the worldly techniques of mass marketing rather than depending upon the transforming power of the Holy Spirit to attract the "crowds" to see God's work of redemption in Jesus.
That's enough of my commentary for now. I hope that you understand the points that I was trying to make in my previous post.
Bob
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by TB125:
One of the major problems at the local level is poor or no loving harmonious teamwork being done between the people of the congregation and their pastor or pastors. And too much attention is often given to "me", my gift or gifts, and too little attention to Jesus.
Great post TB125. I agree that we must not forget to uplift Jesus in everything we say and do. We are His ambassadors to glorify the Kingdom.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
You have made some great points TB125, that should cause us to see the deeper problems or issues here:
quote:
I believe that is a good principle of biblical application and instruction. In the case of this man in Corinth, Paul was instructing the congregation in Corinth to discipline this man. He was not instructing the Christians in Ephesus or Jerusalem to do this. And he had some recognized authority and responsibility to give this congregation this instruction and direction, because he was their founding pastor. Church discipline, according to my understanding of biblical principles, is best done locally by those who are directly involved in the local ministries of the congregation. This may involve a congregation exercising discipline over a member or even its pastor, or it may extend to the displine of a pastor by an ecclesiastical body that has the administrative authority for a group of churches and their pastors.
I agree with what you are illustrating here, but I see a greater problem because many of these are their own authority, subject only to their own hand picked boards... not baords who pciked them, and yet they preach and teach other people's flocks, with total disregard as to the approval or diapproval of those local pastors; they also usurp resources many of them from other people's flocks. Both of these facts speak to a still deeper issue. Which I believe that you touch on here....
quote:
One of the major problems at the local level is poor or no loving harmonious teamwork being done between the people of the congregation and their pastor or pastors. And too much attention is often given to "me", my gift or gifts, and too little attention to Jesus. Too many preachers and congregations are good at using the worldly techniques of mass marketing rather than depending upon the transforming power of the Holy Spirit to attract the "crowds" to see God's work of redemption in Jesus.
Because we have been for a very long time now been building the church man's way and not God's way, the local Church does not look like God's church it looks like man's church and it functions like man's church not God's church.
In the church of the Apostles, great care was taken by Paul not to build on any man's foundation, but to lay the foundation of Christ and upon that the building was done... then the church sent out apostles to do the same, but this is not the case today. Today we have teachers that were not sent out by any church and thus not accountible to any church, and they preach and teach to every church.
Thus, I come to the place where I have to disagree with this statement:
quote:
My point is that none of us have any authority or responsibility over any of the preachers/teachers that are being criticized in these postings. They are each subject to the their local boards and congregations and to the Lord, as are most of us.
I believe that because of the nature in which these people teach and preach to sheep from the folds of many many local congregations and yet hold them selves accountible to none, except their own hand chosen non profit boards, they have made themselves to be every body's responsibility to hold them accountible to those things that are sound doctrine, both in thier teaching and their practice.
JMO of course.
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by David:
>>> I believe it is a clever ploy of the devil to make us think that we are supposed to be miserable and unhappy all of the time. Don't you even think about 'feeling good.'
I am sorry you are so miserable. I know I sure am not. God has bless my socks off. You really don't know what your talking about. But I guess I am blessed because I don't have to thank about me all the time asking for more and more and more blessings. Give me, give me, give me..... I know having to ask and ask and ask because you always want more has to wear you out.
All I need to feel good is know that Jesus Christ has paid my sin dept and I am so bless that it does not matter what I have but that I am in the will of God. God is not here to serve you, but you He. He is not your genie in the sky there to grant your every wish.
Wonder why Paul could sing in prison. I bet it is because he was happy with what God gave him and did not think he was so good he should have it all. If you know Jesus and what he did for you on the cross, that is all you should need. Are you ever happy with what God gives you or do you think you think you are better then Paul and need it all and need it NOW.
Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. Philippians 4:11-13
1 Timothy 6:6-12
But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
Don't preach your false Prosperity Gospel lie on this message board. If you want to do that go somewhere else.
AMEN and AMEN My Brother! As Linda said, You Are Preachin Good! I especially appreciate the last sentence of your post
God Bless you Bro ![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif)
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
Comments re these blasphemous books -
"The DaVinci Code - a Sad Excuse for a Book or a Movie - Dan Brown’s novel is saturated with a plethora of heresies, misnomers and misinformation concerning Jesus Christ, the Bible and Christianity. "
The Jesus Papers - "It is complete blasphemy done by someone that either has not read or does not understand the Bible. This is a variation of an old false teaching that is rising back up again. islamics believe that Jesus did not die on the cross and will return in the end times, live here on earth for 40 years then die and be buried. I really do believe that we are seeing the falling away spoken of in the Bible and as such we will be seeing more and more of this type of garbage that will lead many people away from Jesus Christ.
Not only is it outrageous but it is quite saddening to think of all the lost souls that will be mislead by this garbage and have to suffer forever for it."
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
ROFL!!!!! ![[pound]](graemlins/pound.gif)
(and shaking head ruefully)
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
ROFL!!!!! (and shaking head ruefully)
To me, blasphemy towards Jesus isn't funny. This is serious stuff.
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
ROFL!!!!! (and shaking head ruefully)
To me, blasphemy towards Jesus isn't funny. This is serious stuff.
I think you know that this wasn't what I found so hysterical... it was your use of this smiley
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
But as I said, I think you already knew that
![[wave3]](graemlins/18.gif)
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
ROFL!!!!! (and shaking head ruefully)
To me, blasphemy towards Jesus isn't funny. This is serious stuff.
I think you know that this wasn't what I found so hysterical... it was your use of this smiley
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
But as I said, I think you already knew that
No I didn't know that. It's so unusual for many on this Board to laugh with me that I am taken aback . Sorry
Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on
:
Thank you helpforhomeschoolers for your complimentary endorsement of some of my points.
But you indicate that you disagree with this point: quote:
My point is that none of us have any authority or responsibility over any of the preachers/teachers that are being criticized in these postings. They are each subject to the their local boards and congregations and to the Lord, as are most of us.
Apparently you believe that we or some of us do have some "authority or responsibility" to judge others in regard to their heretical preaching and teaching. You seem to assume this authority when their "self-appointed" boards and congregations won't exercise any critical judgments.
Who gives you or me or any us members of this message board or other ministers this "authority" and "responsibility"? Note Jesus' teaching about judging others in this text: quote:
Do not judge, or you too will be judged
(Matt 7:1)
Apparently helpforhomeschoolers believes that he and some of us should hold some preachers/teachers responsible for their heretical teachings. Just how are we do this since we are probably not locally engaged with them? Do they suffer from the financial contributions that we do not send them? Probably not. Do they care about the critical comments that we make about them in this message board? Probably not. Are they worried about any petitions that we might compose and circulate against them? Probably not.
Paul spend a lot of effort in his letters to his Corinthian congregation explaining and defending his ministry with them. But he had this to say regarding their judgments of him: quote:
I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself....It is the Lord who judges me.
(1 Cor 4:3-4)
That is my point! It is the Lord and God's angels who render the judgments regarding our ministries, including what we preach and teach. Note again in my basic principles of ministries that the "wheat" and the "tares" of God's field are evaluated and treated according to the authority and responsibility of the "harvesters", who are God's "angels" who will exercise their authority at "the end of the age". (Matt 13:39)
Are you helpforhomeschoolers and I really ready to let the Lord be the only judge of our ministries? Are we ready to claim that our orthodoxy and our ministries do more to reflect the unique glory of God in Jesus Christ than does that of some other teachers and ministers?
I would suggest that we each would do well to use our individual gifts as best we can to glory Jesus, and let Jesus and his "angels" evaluate the "fruits" of our ministries. Are we each filled everyday with praise and thanksgiving for what God through His Holy Spirit is doing in our lives and ministries in spite of our own weaknesses and self-serving efforts? What more can we do in our use of this forum and our websites and the other opportunities for witnessing that we have to encourage each other and to expand the preaching of the gospel (good news)to the multitudes of confused and lost individuals in our world? Let us not waste too much time and space judging others, but see what more we can do to glorify Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.
Posted by David (Member # 1) on
:
"JUDGE NOT, THAT YE BE NOT JUDGED"
Concerning the proper application of Matthew 7:1
It is not very often we hear this verse quoted accurately. More often than not when a Christian speaks of sin, a form of this verse is quoted as, "You're not supposed to judge," or, "We're not supposed to judge."
Let's reexamine Matthew 7:1,2 -
"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."
A poor paraphrase of Matthew 7:1 is often quoted without considering Matthew 7:2. Notice again what verse 2 says: "For with what (judgment ye judge), ye shall be judged: and (with what measure ye mete), it shall be measured to you again."
Some people have been so misled into believing that love equals tolerance they have with all-out enthusiasm adopted the position that Christians can't identify sin, because that would be judging. Yet Matthew 7:2 says, "For with what judgment ye judge." This Scripture acknowledges that everyone judges.
What we need to be sure of is that our judgment is not based on our own understanding. Proverbs 3:5 is a key text to understanding what Matthew 7:1 is teaching about judging. It reads: "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."
The word "understanding" is a synonymous term for "judging." These two words (understanding and judgment) both refer to one's ability to discern between right and wrong. Judgment needs to be righteous judgment; that is, based on the Word of God. John 7:24 reads: "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."
Jesus' words recorded in John 5:30, 31 refer to the same thought as Matthew 7:1:
"I can of Mine own Self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and My judgment is just; because I seek not Mine own will, but the will of the Father Which hath sent me. If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true."
Jesus is saying His judgment is not His judgment, but, rather, the will of the Father. Jesus was in total agreement with the Father. In fact, Jesus and the Father were one (John 10:30).
Christians should pattern themselves after Jesus, obviously. Our judgment should not be our own judgment, but, rather, our judgment should be righteous judgment (John 7:24). Righteous judgment is not our own judgment. It is the judgment of God that we are in agreement with.
John 8:15,16 records Jesus' words as follows:
"Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. And yet if I judge, My judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father That sent me."
Jesus said He did not judge any man. Then he says, "And yet if I judge." Is this a paradox? No. Jesus only did the things which were His Father's will (John 7:16-18). The objection might then be raised, even though Jesus said He judged no man, that if one were to identify sin, that such a person is judging, and that isn't proper. Usually this thought is followed by the statement that only Jesus was perfect, and, therefore, He is the only one qualified to identify sin.
A reading from 1 Corinthians 2:15,16 should clear this up: "But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the LORD, that he may instruct Him? (But we have the mind of Christ.)" Yes, the body of Christ, the church, must be connected to the head (mind), Jesus Christ.
Romans chapters 1 and 2 warn us of what happens when people judge for themselves, apart from the Word of God. Romans 1:32 reads:
"Who (knowing the judgment of God), that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."
The first two verses of Romans 2 really build upon this, too:
"Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things."
Notice, these verses are not speaking about judging according to what God has outlined in His Word; but, rather, these verses make the point that these know the judgment of God (Romans 1:32), but willingly decide to go against the judgment of God (Romans 2:1).
When Matthew 7:1 makes the statement to "judge not," it means one does not have the right to decide what things are right and what things are wrong. If one makes decisions based on one's feelings, this is judging. If one makes decisions based on what is permissible or popular, one could very well be judging. If one makes decisions based on what might be most beneficial under the circumstances, one is judging.
If one makes decisions based on the Word of God, God remains the Judge, and we are merely in agreement with what God has said. This is "righteous judgment." See John 8:15,16 again.
If one agrees with all that God has said, one has an obligation to identify sin or faults -- not with the intent to condemn, but, rather, with the motive to restore. Galatians 6:1 reads: "Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual restore such an one in the spirit of meekness, considering thyself lest thou also be tempted." This Scripture is clear that we are to attempt to restore those who are overtaken in a fault.
One must first recognize what constitutes a fault (sin) before one can identify it. Man's judgment, apart from God's revealed Word, is not adequate for this task. Identifying sin is not judging. Judging is the determination of what is right and wrong. Allowing sin to go unchecked in the name of tolerance is judging indeed because one has, directly or by acquiescence, given a nod of approval to the sinful course in defiance to God (Romans 1:32; 2:1).
Usually when one approaches this topic, Matthew 7:3-6 is brought into the discussion. When one examines these passages, however, one finds they are referring to the ability to see clearly. These verses more aptly fit with verses 22 and 23 of Matthew 7. Also verse 3 begins with the word "And." A similar usage occurs in Matthew 6:28 when Jesus changes His thought from one's stature to one's raiment.
By: Ken Mansfield
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on
:
TB125,
I do not believe HFHS or anyone else are Judgeing Ones salvation. But they are discerning and judging if what the message is that is being taught is the truth from the scriptures.
And the TV evangelist messages can be rightly so judged to see if what they say and teach are truth from the word of God. We are all called to be Bereans. We are not judging sin, but the twisting of Gods word.
These TV evangelist may have their own boards of elders, deacons and such, but they also have TV broadcasts that go into different peoples homes. Saved and Lost people.
And the end of the age is not here, not yet. And there is more than having a music ministry, preaching ministry, teaching ministry. There are also watchmen for the Lord. Their ministry is to warn others of false teaching and deception. It is their responsibility, and yes they do also have such authority.
The fruits of anyones ministry can be rightly judged by us, not just the Lord or the angels.
There are many false prophets who pretend to be Christian guides, but whose real purpose is selfish and destructive. We must test those climing to propesy by their Fruit, tht is by their life-style, chrcter, teching and influence.
Did you know it is possible for a self-deluded person to exercise a spectacular ministry, using the authority of the Scriptures and of the name of Jesus, without walking in genuine, obedient discipleship?
The Lord will hold these false teachers/preachers responsible. The Watchmen will just warn the people of the coming deceptions. Shalom
Posted by David (Member # 1) on
:
Matthew 7:15-23 (KJV)
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
----------
“False prophets” does not only mean false preachers who proclaim a false gospel, but primarily false professors of faith in Christ. Their inward nature has not changed (see 2 Peter 1:4); they merely wear the outward guise of a sheep. They call Christ “Lord” and even do religious deeds, but they have not been saved! How do we detect these false believers? “You will know them by their fruits” (v. 16, NKJV). What fruits does Christ seek? He seeks: (1) the fruit of the Spirit, or Christian character as described in the Beatitudes and Gal. 5:22-23; (2) the fruit of the lips, testimony and praise to God (Heb. 13:15); (3) holy living (Rom. 6:22); (4) good works (Col. 1:10); (5) lost souls won to Christ (Rom. 1:13). Professing Christians may be involved in religious activities and pretend to be saved, but if they are honestly born again, they will reveal these fruits in daily life.
Note that these “counterfeits” are surprised at the judgment! It is possible to fool ourselves! Satan blinds the mind (2 Cor. 4:3-4) and deceives people into thinking they are saved. When Christ returns, millions of professing Christians will be surprised to find out they were never saved at all!
Be sure you are following the Lord Jesus Christ and not a man made gospel. Make sure it is about Jesus Christ and not about YOU.
Are you truely saved. Do you know Jesus?
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
We ARE to use righteous judgement:
2 Peter 2:
1: But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2: And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3: And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4: For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5: And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6: And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7: And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
9: The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11: Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12: But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13: And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14: Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16: But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb *** speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
17: These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18: For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19: While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21: For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22: But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
1 Cor. 5:
9: I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11: But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12: For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13: But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
1 Cor. 2:
9: But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10: But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11: For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12: Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13: Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15: But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16: For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
2 Timothy 3:
16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Main Entry: doc•trine
Pronunciation: 'däk-tr&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French, from Latin doctrina, from doctor
1 archaic : TEACHING, INSTRUCTION
2 a : something that is taught b : a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief : DOGMA c : a principle of law established through past decisions d : a statement of fundamental government policy especially in international relations
Main Entry: re•proof
Pronunciation: ri-'prüf
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English reprof, from Middle French reprove, from Old French, from reprover
: criticism for a fault : REBUKE
Main Entry: 1re•buke
Pronunciation: ri-'byük
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): re•buked; re•buk•ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Old North French rebuker
1 a : to criticize sharply : REPRIMAND b : to serve as a rebuke to
2 : to turn back or keep down : CHECK
synonym see REPROVE
- re•buk•er noun
Main Entry: cor•rec•tion
Pronunciation: k&-'rek-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : the action or an instance of correcting : as a : AMENDMENT, RECTIFICATION b : REBUKE, PUNISHMENT c : a bringing into conformity with a standard d : NEUTRALIZATION, COUNTERACTION <correction of acidity>
2 : a decline in market price or business activity following and counteracting a rise
3 a : something substituted in place of what is wrong <marking corrections on the students' papers> b : a quantity applied by way of correcting (as for adjustment of an instrument)
4 : the treatment and rehabilitation of offenders through a program involving penal custody, parole, and probation; also : the administration of such treatment as a matter of public policy -- usually used in plural
- cor•rec•tion•al /-shn&l, -sh&-n&l/ adjective
Main Entry: righ•teous
Pronunciation: 'rI-ch&s
Function: adjective
Etymology: alter. of earlier rightuous, alteration of Middle English rightwise, rightwos, from Old English rihtwIs, from riht, noun, right + wIs wise
1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin
2 a : morally right or justifiable <a righteous decision> b : arising from an outraged sense of justice or morality <righteous indignation>
3 slang : GENUINE, GOOD
synonym see MORAL
- righ•teous•ly adverb
- righ•teous•ness noun
The Word of God stands, TB125, and those who teach contrary and lead others astray are to be judged by Holy Scripture.
Just as the Brethren, Linda, David, Deb, Walt, Yahsway, Hardcore, Dale, will NOT stand idly by and see others led astray by the LDS, the JWS, we cannot stand idly by and see the blatant deception of the WOF/Positive Confession, PDL, etc., etc., etc., go unchallenged.
It is the corrupt eisegesis, the counterfeit hermeneutics, the self-serving theology which is being challenged in the very electronic formats which are so favored by the deceivers. Just as so many proponents of this heresy keep popping-up in these forums, our Brethren will keep defending the TRUTH in these same forums as you keep coming into to defend error and false teachers.
A Bravo and an Amen to each of the Brethren who so staunchly defend the truth against the deceived and the deceivers.
If you defend Hinn, Osteen, Copeland, Crouch, Roberts, Warren, Schuler, and a plethora of other deceivers, then you are deceived TB125, and you need to repent and get into the Word of God and not follow wolves in sheeps clothing.
Posted by Pleasemaranatha (Member # 5150) on
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MATT. 5:43-47
43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
I do not believe HFHS or anyone else are Judgeing Ones salvation.
I'm getting a little tired of hearing, "We are not attacking the person and/or their salvation, but the message." It's a cop-out. Quotes from HFHS to me -
quote:
"You can continue to put your faith in men and your own understanding if you like. I will stick with the Bible thank you."
If this were true, such a person is being accused of being very shallow and not dependent on the Bible at all. Where's your salvation HisGrace? tsk,tsk.
quote:
"I shall not argue with you any more; your foolish respect of persons at the expense of sound exegesis of scripture and aherence to sound doctrine is digusting to me His Grace"
According to this statement, if such a person has no adherence to sound doctrine, her salvation should be questioned??
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
Your continual blind defense of false teachers, and your unwillingness to receive Biblical truth and understanding, brings your scriptural credibility into question, HisGrace.
Love also seeks to retrieve those who have been led astray into false doctrine and heresy, Please Maranatha.
2 Peter 2:
12: But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13: And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14: Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16: But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb *** speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
17: These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18: For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19: While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on
:
HisGrace, its not a "cop-out". We are all to, just as the Bereans did in Pauls day, search out the scripture to see if the MESSAGE is Biblically sound and of the Truth.
I for one cannot defend some of the MESSAGES being presented today by some of the preachers we have discussed here on the boards.
I do not pretend to know all that is in their hearts, or their relationship with Jesus, but, I do know that a lot of what I have heard them say, or the Message if you will, are not scripturally correct.
I have no reservtions about speaking out aginst their messages. I am suppose to.
I did not see HFHS post to you questioning your salvation. What I read was her questioning your staunch defense of those preachers who teach outside the scriptures. Which I might also add is very puzzeling to me as well.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
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HisGrace you are very good at putting words in people's mouths, I have asked you to stop putting them in mine.
You have not seen me question the salvation of any that I have spoken against with regard to their teaching or preaching or false doctrine or practice that is contrary to the word.
I have not questioned your salvation. You say you are saved. I hope and pray that you are.
I have posted pages upong pages of answer to the misuse of "judge not" and I always say that what we cannot judge is the heart of man or man's salvation these are not for us to judge.
The scripture does say that out of the fullness of the heart man speaks, and this can allow us a glimpse of man's heart,and that can be a fearsome thing, but even then and I have said this many times as well, even then we cannot know what God will do in the last milliseconds of life and while there is life there is possibility for repentance and salvation, and since I unlike you believe that all who are found just in the end were just from before they were knit together in the womb, and what we see in this life is the manifestation of that which was done and known of God before the foundation, I would not dare judge man's salvation. My word, I am not even so bold as to think that I know what Jesus did with Judas when he preached to those that had died!
This does not mean that I am not concerned for some who seem to be deceived on certain things. I am and for these I do pray. The devil does decevie many in this life and devour them in this life though in the end, they will be saved. It is a sad thing to see someone living this life without victory that is theirs in Christ, because the devil has lied to them.
Likewise, the devil does deceive some in this life into thinking that they are saved and they are not and we see these in the scripture where They cry Lord Lord, only to hear from Jesus "I NEVER knew you." For these I pray also, for I have known ones who personally believed that they were saved and worked in HIS name, only to learn that they had not been born again and needed to repent and come to Christ and be born again.
Here is what I have said of you and I think you have demonstrated these things to be so all on your own...
You show an esteem and respect of persons above the written word, particularly esteeming those who preach a prosperity Gospel, WOF name it claim it lies, and further you actively seek to promote on this board those who preach a properity Gospel, refuse to speak of sin, and teach name it claim it WOF doctrines, prophesy falsely such as Osteen, Warren, Hinn, Copeland, Meyer, and such.
You show a desire to keep others from seeing the error and apostasy that exists in the church today and a need to discredit those who would speak of such.
You actively seek to disrupt threads that speak against error of doctrine in the church, and false teachers/preachers by turning the focus of the tread from the intended purpose of education to the discrediting and running down of people who speak against false teachings/teachers/ and error and apostasy in the church.
You show a cavalier attitude for the word of God prefering esigesis to hermeneutically sound exegesis, and you have expressed a disregard for the details God has thought to place in the scriptures.
You have a seeming inability to admit any error on your part when discussing the scripture, and when your error is point blank in black and white posted, you change the subject, ignore the error, claim that you meant something other than what you said.
I dont understand this coming from a Christian, and I find it disgusting.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
David and Drew: Thanks for your posts on Judgment, there is nothing that I would have added. I am some what weary of dealing with that argument over and over again and I was going to post David's links from the other day on this subject in answer to TB125. I thought these audio clips were great. So here they are:
Who are you to judge? Part 1
Who are you to judge? Part 2
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
:
great post, TB125. I thank the LORD God of Israel for mighty men reinforcements.
sister helpforhomeschoolers writes to TB125 quote:
yet they preach and teach other people's flocks, with total disregard as to the approval or diapproval of those local pastors
sister, this "total disregard" phrase of yours is not true because first of all, it is the pastor or local board that invites a speaker/teacher to come to their church to preach/teach.
This preacher/teacher does not just appear on the doorstep of other people's flocks as you are implying. These preacher/teachers are invited because their teaching is well-known and that local church wants to hear some more of it.
The point is, sister helpforhomeschoolers, that you wrote to TB125 quote:
yet they preach and teach other people's flocks, with total disregard as to the approval or diapproval of those local pastors
sister, this "total disregard" phrase of yours is not true at all.
God bless, BORN AGAIN by the
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
Born Again:
This preacher/teacher does not just appear on the doorstep of other people's flocks as you are implying. These preacher/teachers are invited because their teaching is well-known and that local church wants to hear some more of it.
The point is, sister helpforhomeschoolers, that you wrote to TB125
quote:yet they preach and teach other people's flocks, with total disregard as to the approval or diapproval of those local pastors
sister, this "total disregard" phrase of yours is not true at all.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
It is true BA whether you WILL see it or not. The TV evangelists ARE teaching many other flocks simultaneously, whether BA happens to be able to see that through blinders or not, and they are teaching/preaching false doctrine with no accountability.
Fake miracles and false healings Hinn, attracts huge numbers of the deceived, and leads many from a multitude of flocks astray. He is not accountable to any but himself.
Posted by Watcher (Member # 3589) on
:
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
Proverbs 12:18
Reckless words pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing.
We should prayerfully choose our words, because we are representing Jesus. Since 'Who are We to Judge" has been brought to our attention again, let's review what I said re Part 1 -
Re: Part 1
What stands out is that we are supposed to use sound principles of discernment and season our views with love.
We should not make Pharisital judgments, which may judge things for the wrong reasons. We have to be able to distinguish what is wise and what is foolish.
We should follow three steps in using judgment on others -
1 Humility - take the plank out of our own eye first. The eye represents the soul. The more humble we are, the more mercy will show to others, as God has given us mercy.
2. Judge facts, not presumptions of others. Fragments of information sometimes seem sufficient to make up our minds about the conduct and beliefs of others. Don't jump to conclusions under an angry and critical spirit.
3.Always be able to back up our views with scriptures, not by preferences. Discernment determines destiny.
~Bottom line, we should be very responsible and use extreme diligence whenever we judge others. This is a good lesson for us all.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
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BA: I was basing that statement on the fact that they are broadcast via TV and Radio round the world. I assure you my pastor would be concerned not pleased that I listened to the teachngs of Hinn, Copeland, or Warren for example.
Yes, I am aware that you are correct when speaking of touring in areas of smaller populations this is true and ministerial associations are involved because those areas are not booked unless a specific number of seats can be projected.
I was not aware that this is the case when a area like Denver, or St Luis, or Chicago is part of a coast to caost tour. If that is the case, I would say that is a good thing and I appreciate your correcting me.
I have to say that you are correct and total disregard is inaccurate, little regard would be more accurate.
Posted by Pleasemaranatha (Member # 5150) on
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Passage 2 John 1:3:
3Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Everyone have wonderful day with God!
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
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How To Discern, Test & Judge Rightly
See Paul’s Advice to Timothy (below)
In running a web site with over 900+ articles, thousands of hits per month from all over the world, and hundreds of e-mails per week, I have come to realize, with time, that there is a terrible problem in Christendom today. The problem stems from an existential subjective view of the world that has filtered into the church from secular society, but also from the teachings of heretical wolves who have taught an entire generation of churchgoers completely unbiblical methods of discernment or to get rid of any discernment altogether.
Let me start out this chapter by telling you what methods are being used for "discernment" today that don't have biblical support, then I will move on to the ways in which the Bible does tell us to test teaching, prophecy and actions.
The following criteria are what many people who call themselves Christians are using to test reality and truth today:
(1) Experiences, manifestations
(2) Feelings, emotions
(3) Numbers of followers
(4) Numbers of people who claim to be saved
(5) The size of a church or movement
(6) Signs and wonders, purported miracles (whether real or false)
(7) Subjective testimonies
(8) Hearsay and rumors
(9) How successful and rich a teacher is
(10) If a person speaks with authority
(11) The atmosphere of a meeting
None of the above criteria being used by many churchgoers today are cited in the Bible as ways we are to test, discern and judge rightly.
Experiences
Experiences and manifestations can be from many sources; physical, emotional, mental, paranormal/demonic, or from the Lord. ALL experiences need to be tested against the testimony and teachings of the tried and true written word of God. "Slain in the spirit" is an occult technique imported into Christianity, and has nothing to do with what we are taught in the Scriptures. The prophets, Apostles and Jesus Christ did not do it or teach it as something that should be done. If you have an experience, you had better check the source. Think twice before you submit to people laying hands on you for whatever reason.
Feelings
Mormons made the "burning in the breast" standard fare for their followers, but now a large cross section of Christendom has been taught to judge everything by similar criteria. Modern Christians are, for the most part, not being taught to submit to the Word of God -- but rather to the way they feel emotionally. The phrase "I think" has been replace by the phrase "I feel". This is partially due to influences from the New Age through movies like Star Wars. But in the last twenty years teachers in the Church have taught a whole generation to rely on their feelings.
Emotions are a part of the realm of the flesh and the mind (soul). Emotions can be used by God, but often they are a way for the enemy to get Christians away from the truths of the Bible and gain a foothold in their lives.
Numbers Of Followers
Many leaders have large numbers of followers, including cultists and other religious "gurus". In fact some of the most popular leaders, who have the most followers, are not Christian. Numbers of followers is not a good test of the authenticity of a leader or his ministry.
Numbers Claiming Salvation
Ultimately, only God knows who is saved. Believers can certainly tell if people are false prophets and heretics and must be rejected, but we are not the ultimate judge of their salvation. One fact is certain. When someone claims to be saved they will evidence the fruit of the Spirit, believe in and teach sound doctrine, and not make false prophesies.
Church Size
Church size means nothing in the realm of discernment. God looks for quality over quantity, regardless of what "apostles" like C. Peter Wagner claim:
"... we ought to see clearly that the end DOES justify the means. What else possible could justify the means? If the method I am using accomplishes the goal I am aiming at, it is for that reason a good method. If, on the other hand, my method is not accomplishing the goal, how can I be justified in continuing to use it?" (C. Peter Wagner, "Your Church Can Grow - Seven Vital Signs Of A Healthy Church", 1976, pg. 137. - emphasis in original)
Quantitative judgments are of men. The size of a church could be due to God blessing a ministry and people being truly saved or due to the oratorical skills of a preacher. Big clubs are not necessarily good clubs. Church size is no way to test a ministry.
Signs And Wonders
Signs and wonders are a dime a dozen today and have just as many evidences in false churches the occult as they do in biblical Christianity. Jesus did state that those who saw him perform miracles should have believed, though for the most part they did not. They couldn't even tell the signs of the times (Matt. 16;1-4). People today love to be able to claim they saw or experienced a wonder or miracle from God. Perhaps this is because they want to feel like they have been touched by God personally, are holy, or simply want to be accepted by their peers. If you are going to claim you have seen or experienced a miracle from God, then that miracle must be held up to biblical criteria to prove it is a biblical Divine healing as opposed to many other forms of healing. I cover this subject later on in the chapter called "Test Everything". True believers are careful not to use deceptive methods, to lie about experiences and signs, in order to gain converts.
2 Corinthians 4:2 Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
Subjective Testimonies
Testimonies are nice and can even be an inspiration (if they are true), but they are also inherently subjective. In other words, they are hard, if not impossible, to prove objectively, unless incontrovertible proof exists. Don't allow testimonies, uplifting as they may be, to get in the way of biblical methods of testing. Don't rely on testimonies to shape your belief system. Just as you would test a cake to see if it is done by manually inserting a toothpick, instead of relying on the good smell of the cake and the feelings you get from it's aroma, don't use subjective methods to test stories--use the objective Word of God.
Hearsay
Most stories are being passed along today as hearsay. They often gain a little here and there until they have been blown all the way out of proportion from the original account. Don't pass along rumors, gossip and stories unless you check them out thoroughly. In this day and age of the Internet, that has become a much easier task, so there is no excuse to avoid researching claims from all angles. Don't just take people's word for it. Do the math yourself.
Success Of A Teacher
Anyone can be successful given the tools, the gifts, the right connections and the right circumstances. Some of the most godly men and women in the church have been dirt poor. Don't be swayed by rich televangelists. They have often raised their money off the backs of the less fortunate, the naïve, the hopeless, the poor, the fatherless, the widows. True success is not measured by money, power, number of followers, or any of the criteria of the "American Dream". Man looks on the outside, but God looks on the heart. We can get a pretty clear picture of the heart of a person if we test what they say and what they do against the Scriptures.
Apparent Authority
Many men and women are capable of speaking with authority. It can be a natural gift, a demonic gift or a gift from God. But it is no way to test whether a person is a true or false teacher. Authority can be put on, learned, acted. True authority from God is accompanied by true teaching, true prophecy and the fruit of the Spirit.
Atmosphere
Benny Hinn claims he needs an "atmosphere" to do his "miracles".
Interviewer: If Benny Hinn is real, he'll go into the hospitals and cure everyone there.
Benny Hinn: "I've been told that many times. What I tell them is quite simple. Healing most times needs an atmosphere of faith. I have gone to hospitals. I've done it actually many times or people's homes and pray for them. Most times, they cannot get healed. … God's people make it happen; bring this atmosphere of faith ..." (Benny Hinn, interview by Marla Weech, of WFTV , "Inside Central Florida")
When did the Apostles need an atmosphere to heal?
Beware of testing meetings by the atmosphere created there. Like and Amway meeting or halftime at a football game, an atmosphere can be manipulated. God does not need an stadium full of screaming Benny Hinn fans burning with fleshly passion to move. What He requires is simple obedience to His Word.
BIBLICAL DISCERNMENT
There are three important biblical ways in which we are to use discernment.
(1) Test all teaching for sound doctrine, and especially against the core doctrines of the Faith as laid down in the sixty six books of the Bible.
(2) Test all prophesies to see if they are biblical and if the predictions of a prophet all come true.
(3) Test their lives, words and actions for the fruit of the Spirit.
TEST THEIR TEACHINGS
The Church and individual Christians, are commanded by the Lord to reject false teachers -- heretics.
Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject; (KJV)
A heretic is defined by Peter as one who lays error alongside of truth, secretly introducing destructive heresies.
2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them-- bringing swift destruction on themselves.
Christians are to reject those who preach a false gospel because they are condemned by the Lord..
Galatians 1:8-9 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
Even Paul, a foundational Apostle, encouraged his listeners to test his teaching against the written Word of God, and he stated that those who teach must not "go beyond what is written.".
Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
1 Corinthians 4:6 Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.
Believers are to be discerning.
Phil. 1:9-11 And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ, filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ-- to the glory and praise of God.
Proverbs 15:14 The discerning heart seeks knowledge, but the mouth of a fool feeds on folly.
Proverbs 17:24 A discerning man keeps wisdom in view, but a fool's eyes wander to the ends of the earth.
Proverbs 18:15 The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge; the ears of the wise seek it out.
Proverbs 28:7 He who keeps the law is a discerning son, but a companion of gluttons disgraces his father
Proverbs 3:21 My son, preserve sound judgment and discernment, do not let them out of your sight;
Why do we test teaching against the Scriptures? Because we are commanded to remain in sound doctrine, to keep the faith, to follow the teachings of the prophets, Apostles and Jesus Christ.
2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
Titus 1:9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
Titus 2:1 You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.
False teachers are liars and do not remain in sound doctrine.
1 Timothy 1:10 for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers -- and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine
TEST THE SPIRITS
We are warned by the Lord to test every spirit because many false prophets have gone out.
1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
How do we test the spirits? By comparing what they are teaching and prophesying to the Scriptures, and if they are living in the fruit of the Spirit. How do we do that? First we must be a believer in Christ to test anything rightly.
Romans 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is-- his good, pleasing and perfect will.
2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you-- unless, of course, you fail the test?
Then we test our own words and actions to be sure we are in the Faith and in sound doctrine.
Galatians 6:4 Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else,
How much are we supposed to test? Everything.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test everything. Hold on to the good.
JUDGE RIGHTLY
Are we to judge? Certainly. We are not to judge hypercritically (Matt. 7:1) -- in other words, judging someone while doing the same thing ourselves. We are not the final judge of anyone's salvation. But we are to judge what people teach and prophesy. Paul commanded those who listened to him to judge what he was saying.
1 Corinthians 10:15 I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say.
We must learn to judge rightly, now, because someday we will judge the earth and the angels with Christ.
1 Corinthians 6:3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
We are told by the Lord to judge those inside the Church because God judges those outside. We are to reject heretics and expel wicked men from the assembly of believers because if they are allowed to remain they will leaven the whole lump.
1 Corinthians 5:12-13 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."
TEST THEIR PROPHECY
We are to test prophecy to see if it comes true and is biblical. A true prophet is 100% accurate because he worships God in Spirit and in truth and speaks the truth. We must reject false prophets and remove them from the assembly of believers.
Duet. 13:1-5 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.
False prophets may have a good track record, but they are never 100% accurate. However, they may be able to fool people into thinking they do. That's where the teaching test comes in, and why it is listed as the first test of discernment. Some prophets can look really good, but if they are teaching heresy you can be sure it is a test from God to see if you will "love Him with all your heart". John tells us that if we love the Lord we will obey His commands (John 14:21, 15:10; 1 John 5:2-3; 2 John 1:6). The Bible commands us over and over again to test, discern and judge teaching, prophecy and fruit. We must reject heretics who are unrepentant. If we do not obey the Lord in this, we are proving that we do not really love Him.
Deuteronomy 18:20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."
We don't put false prophets to death today, but we are to remove ourselves from their presence.
Deuteronomy 18:22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
The Lord is against those who give false prophesies.
Jeremiah 23:32 Indeed, I am against those who prophesy false dreams," declares the LORD. "They tell them and lead my people astray with their reckless lies, yet I did not send or appoint them. They do not benefit these people in the least," declares the LORD.
Jeremiah 27:15 'I have not sent them,' declares the LORD. 'They are prophesying lies in my name. Therefore, I will banish you and you will perish, both you and the prophets who prophesy to you.'"
Those who follow false prophets will share in their judgment.
Jeremiah 5:31 The prophets prophesy lies, the priests rule by their own authority, and my people love it this way. But what will you do in the end?
Jeremiah 23:31 Yes," declares the LORD, "I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, 'The LORD declares.'
Jeremiah 27:15 'I have not sent them,' declares the LORD. 'They are prophesying lies in my name. Therefore, I will banish you and you will perish, both you and the prophets who prophesy to you.'"
Ezekiel 13:9 My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD.
We are not to even listen to false prophecy.
Jeremiah 23:16 This is what the LORD Almighty says: "Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the LORD.
False prophets are often those who claim they had a dream or a vision of the Lord or from the Lord.
Jeremiah 23:25 "I have heard what the prophets say who prophesy lies in my name. They say, 'I had a dream! I had a dream!'
False prophets are actually using divination and the delusion of their own minds instead of communicating with God.
Jeremiah 14:14 Then the LORD said to me, "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.
Ezekiel 22:28 Her prophets whitewash these deeds for them by false visions and lying divinations. They say, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says'-- when the LORD has not spoken.
TEST THEIR FRUIT
The final test is to compare the words and actions of any teacher or prophet with the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:18-25. It is also helpful to look at the list of things that are the opposite of the fruit of the Spirit.
If a person falsely prophesies, even once, they are likely using divination and false visions. Are they trying to build a following and promote themselves, gaining fame? Then they likely have "selfish ambition". Do they promote "drunk in the Spirit"? That's the sin of "drunkenness". If they are stripping the poor of their money with crooked money-raising schemes, that's not the fruit of kindness. If their meetings are marked by wild manifestations, they do not have the fruit of peace or self-control. If they are cocky mockers they do not have the fruit of gentleness.
Gal. 5:18-25 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
The Lord will cut off anyone who does not bear fruit. This means anyone who does not have the fruit of the Spirit and has not been doing the will of the Father.
John 15:2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
CONCLUSION
Finally, we must understand that those who are false teachers, false prophets, without the fruit of the Spirit are a blight on true Christianity. We must separate ourselves from them.
Rom. 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them
Eph. 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them
2 Thess. 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh DISORDERLY, and not after the tradition which ye received of us 2 Tim. 3:5,7 Concerning the last days, he says that some will have "a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof. From such turn away" for such people are "never able to come to the knowledge of the truth"
2 John 10:11 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds "
2 Cor. 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch no the unclean thing; and I will receive you
Jude 1:12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm-- shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted-- twice dead.
We all were once in darkness. Now that we are in the light we must walk in the light, rejecting darkness.
Eph. 5:8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.
by Sandywww.deceptioninthechurch.org
Paul’s Advice to Timothy
“In 2 Timothy, Paul's last letter, Paul was passing the baton to Timothy. His repeated challenge to Timothy was to guard the truth, to retain the standard. Timothy was to guard it and continue in the things Paul had begun.
Paul identifies a couple of problems that Timothy should be prepared for. Paul writes, "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths" (2 Tim. 4:3-4).
Timothy, Paul says, the time will come when radical, weird things will happen in the church. Is the Toronto Blessing one of them? Maybe, maybe not. But my point here is I don't have to answer that question. Paul is telling Timothy that the time will come when people will turn away. Now, what was he to do when that time came? Paul has already given him the answer in chapter three.
He starts by saying, "But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God" (2 Tim. 3:1-4).
Well, that time has come. And Paul gives Timothy the antidote: "You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them" (2 Tim. 3:14).
Then Paul goes on: "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work" (2 Tim. 3:16-17).
What is Paul's solution when all of these things begin to happen? He tells Timothy to stay steady at the helm. Don't worry about being left behind with the new things that are happening. Instead, continue in the things which you have already learned.” (Greg Koukl. www.str.org.
Heresy In The Church
Simpson, 7/30/02
Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on
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I'll try one more time to make my point that few of us, if any at all, have the authority or the responsibility to judge the salvation or the ministries of others. I know that many of you are not claiming to be judges over the salvation of others, but some of you seem to feel that you have the resposibility to judge the ministries and the teachings of others.
I would encourage each of you to consider who it is to whom God has called you to minister, to teach, to warn. Who is your "flock" that you are called to "shepherd"? How well are you doing with the commission that Jesus gave you to be his "witness" to that "flock"?
David obviously has a very clear picture of the "flock", the people, that he and his family are seeking to reach in their extensive ministries with Ark Webs and Fish the Net and their other programs, including this forum, for their various ministries. This gives him some responsibility to make sure that he is faithful to God's Word in his teaching and the administration of his ministries. This is as it should be, and God and His angels are going to hold David accountable and evaluate the "produce", the fruits of his ministries, that he presents to God.
If some of you want a more personal opportunity to be engaged with some seekers or new Christians who are seeking help and encouragement with the spiritual aspects of their lives, I would encouage you to sign up and to share in David's Online Evangelism Ministry Team that is a part of his Fish the Net ministry. You will be given opportunities to respond to individuals who have sought help from its Tracts. Some of these individuals will be persons who have just made their personal decisions to accept Jesus as their Savior. Others will have made a recommitment of their lives to Him. Others will indicate that they "still have questions". In any case you can respond with your teachings from the Bible, words of encouragement, and prayers. It is a great ministry and a blessing to share in it.
If some of you want to reach a larger "flock" with your teachings, I would suggest that you write a book or books to state your case against these that you criticise. Bob DeWaay has written a very detailed critique of Rick Warren's "movement" entitled "Redefining Christianity Understanding the Purpose Driven Movement".
I don't think that it has affected Rick Warren, his congregation, his business of selling books and his tools, or his thousands of supporting pastors, but it did help me to leave my church where the pastor had imposed Warren's teachings and strategies for ministry upon a congregation that was too eager to grow.
The challenge of my calling, including my participation in this forum, is to do my best to share the wisdom of God's truth in Jesus Christ, the "good news" of His sacrifice and resurrection for my redemption from the Devil, and to be faithful in my stewardship of the gifts that God has given to me. I pray that my comments and suggestions are helpful to each of us who are a part of this "flock". May Jesus be glorified!
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on
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Jesus the Christ has but ONE Flock. It is every Christians duty to judge correctly what is being taught. Thats scriptual.
Good post HFHS.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
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So, it is ok to make such judgments if they lead you to write a book, but not if they lead you post them on a message board?
Now I am confused.
There were people on this message board warning the church about Warren's teachings long before Mr. Dewaay's book came out. They were helping people avoid clever deception and not only leave churches that were imposing warren's teachings, but also witness to other pastors before they fell into the same deceptions.
Those same people that were witnessing then regarding Warren's teaching... were met also with "Judge not lest ye be judged" "Thou shalt not judge!." and the ever famous... "touch thou not God's annointed." Some of them by the very same ones that are misusing those same scriptures here in other threads today.
I for one thank God for each of those who knew the scripture well enough to know what we are all called to judge and what we are not, and had the courage to stand on the word, while others tried to shame them for speaking against what Warren was teaching. And I am thankful for David, who gave them a place to speak. I am witness to their fruit.
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on
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May I also add my name to that fruit list! ![[type]](graemlins/type.gif)
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
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Wow! Praise God!!!!!! It's so good to know that all we went through on that topic Did Indeed Bear GOOD Fruit for HIS Kingdom!!!!!
![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
I am also guessing that there has been GOOD Fruit Produced in the discussions of False Teaching/Teachers/Prophets as well! There is a vast majority of 'readers only' on this board and Prayerfully if even ONE of them had their eyes opened and their hearts turned away from Falsehoods by the efforts of those who Stand Firm on God's Holy Word and do not Compromise with False Teaching/Teachers/Prophets - then it is to God's Glory!!!!
Posted by David (Member # 1) on
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2 PETER 2
This is a complex chapter, and we should compare it to Jude’s epistle where some of these same phrases are used. The danger of false teachers is so great that the Holy Spirit used both Peter and Jude to warn us, so we had better pay attention.
Please keep in mind that a false teacher is not a person who teaches false doctrine out of ignorance. In Acts 18:24-28, Apollos taught mistakenly the message and the baptism of John, but he was not a false teacher. Many of the great leaders of the church in centuries past have held interpretations of minor matters that we may not believe are biblical; still, we cannot call them false teachers. False teachers are professed believers who know the truth but who deliberately teach lies in the hope of promoting themselves and getting financial gain from their followers (2:3, 14). They are able to live in sin to please themselves (2:10, 13-14, 18-19). They use deceptive means (2:1, 3) and twist the Word of God to suit their fancies.
I. Their Condemnation (2:1-9)
Peter opens this section by declaring that false teachers are bound to appear but will ultimately be condemned by God. Verse 1 summarizes the methods of the false teachers: (1) they appear among the people as members of the church; (2) they work secretly, under cover of hypocrisy, pretending to be what they are not; (3) they bring in their false teachings alongside the true doctrine, and then replace the truth with their lies; (4) their lives deny what their lips teach. In other words, “heresy” is not simply false doctrine; it is false living based on false doctrine. “Wolves in sheep’s clothing” is the way our Lord pictured them (Matt. 7:15; and see 2 Cor. 4:1-2; 11:13). Unfortunately, the false teaching will be more popular than the true way (v. 2); but then, Jesus said that the leaven of false doctrine would permeate the whole lump (Matt. 13:33). People will choose to follow the false teachers because they exalt themselves rather than Christ, and many people love to worship popular and successful people. Also, the false way makes it easy to live in sin while pretending to practice a religious life.
“Feigned words” in 2:3 means “counterfeit words” or “manufactured, fabricated words.” The Gk. word is plastos, from which we get the English word “plastic.” These false teachers depart from the Spirit-given words of the Bible (1 Cor. 2:9-16) and manufacture their own words to fit their own doctrines. They take familiar Bible words and manufacture new meanings for them. They use our vocabulary but empty these words of spiritual meaning. It is not what a teacher says, but what he or she means, that counts.
These false teachers will be destroyed, and Peter cites three OT examples to prove it: the angels that sinned and are now imprisoned in Tartarus (which is the meaning of the word translated “hell”); the world before the flood; and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. In each of these cases, the persons involved had a form of religion but not the true faith that empowers the life (2 Tim. 3:5). Before Christ comes back, there will be a great deal of “religion” in the world, but it will not be true faith in Him. Peter also points out that God is able to preserve and deliver His true saints, as He did with Noah and his family, and Lot. Noah is a symbol of the believing Jews who will be preserved through the Tribulation; Lot stands for the church saints who will be “caught away” before the destruction begins. These false teachers may seem to be successful and protected, but one of these days God will destroy them.
From:
Wiersbe's Expository Outlines on the New Testamen
Posted by Thunderz7 (Member # 31) on
:
While the DaVinci Code is heresy and the info in it is dangerous, and in some places out right lies disguised as truth, and the info on the Priory of Sion may be twisted;
to say that the Priory of Sion does not and never existed is wrong.
The heresies of the DaVinci code are the root of the teachings of the Priory of Sion.
You may (obviously)have heard of related groups,
the Odd Fellows, the Knights Templar, the Freemasons, the Illuminati.
They are in our workplaces , our neighborhoods and our churches.
T7
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Thunderz7:
While the DaVinci Code is heresy and the info in it is dangerous, and in some places out right lies disguised as truth, and the info on the Priory of Sion may be twisted;
to say that the Priory of Sion does not and never existed is wrong.
The heresies of the DaVinci code are the root of the teachings of the Priory of Sion.
You may (obviously)have heard of related groups,
the Odd Fellows, the Knights Templar, the Freemasons, the Illuminati.
They are in our workplaces , our neighborhoods and our churches.
T7
AMEN T7! AMEN
They (The Illuminati) are also in our Governments (at the highest levels) and working toward the coming of 'their New Age Christ' (which we all know will be the Anti-Christ). They are (what I call) "The Powers that Be" who serve their master - Lucifer (whom they worship as 'god')
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
The misunderstood 11th commandment: Thou shall not judge
Posted: April 29 2006
Robert E. Meyer
Regardless of the level of theological sophistication, we can always be sure the critics "know" one thing: The Bible says that we should not judge one another. Anyone who would do so is clearly being un-Christian. Such obtuse reasoning is employed against Christians who offer a negative commentary on certain cultural trends, behaviors or lifestyles. Still, I wonder how many people have taken this concept to its logical conclusion?
We now hear that in our modern times, John 3:16 has been replaced by Matthew 7:1, as the most often quoted scriptural passage. This is clearly because we have taken the focus off of what the Creator has done for us, and placed it on the creatures do for themselves. We have taken the emphasis off of grace, and have instead made the approval of moral pluralism the quintessential virtue of the age.
The very idea that all judging is wrong, is an illegitimate synthesis between Christianity, moral relativism, and the contemporary perspective on "tolerance." These ideas have been wedded together to conjure up witch's brew of self-contradictory sophistry.
Christianity has traditionally viewed "tolerance" through a prism of scriptural precept that parallels the garden variety dictionary definition. The scriptures say things like, "Love endures all things," and "As much as it depends on you, live peacefully with all men." The traditional definition is that "tolerance" is graciously enduring those who you disagree with.
Today, "tolerance" has been reconstructed to mean something entirely different. Essentially it means that all ideas, lifestyles and truth claims, are deemed equally valid. Christian author and speaker Josh McDowell refers to this phenomenon as "negative tolerance"(permission) versus "positive tolerance" (approval). One can readily see how this new definition of tolerance circles back to the claim made about judging. If nobody has a superior moral position, then nobody has the standing to "judge" anything in terms of ethical hierarchy.
But does the use of Matthew 7:1, as a stand-alone quotation, bring contextual justice to the point Jesus is making? Of course not. Later in the passage, Christ refers to certain people unable or unwilling to assimilate spiritual things. He refers to them figuratively as "pigs" and "dogs." That sounds a bit like judging to me! In the book of John, Jesus talks of rendering a "righteous judgement," rather than none at all. The point was never that we should not make moral judgments, or employ an ethical hierarchy in being discreet about evaluating "right" and "wrong." The idea was that there should be no "double-standards." We should not judge others by a standard we would not want to be judged with ourselves. This is how we avoid "judgmentalism" and cronin fault-finding. We are exhorted to correct our own hypocrisies before reforming the world.
Now that is very different from telling someone that they shouldn't dare to call anything wrong. In fact, such reasoning will ultimately lead to calling evil good and good evil. This is because evil cannot be called evil, since such labeling is judgmental. Good is considered evil, because those who are endeavoring to do good by calling something else wrong, are guilty of judging. How could any court of justice operate if all judgment without exception were considered wrong? All criticisms of anything would have to be withheld on the basis that such critiques are judgmental in nature.
Christian apologist Greg Koukl offers us the perfect antidote to this apparent logical dilemma. He says that we must be egalitarian in terms persons, but elitist in reference to ideas. That principle is embodied in the old ecclesiastical adage that we are to hate the sin, yet love the sinner. This is a perfect expression of "righteous judgment," but it is a posture that would be condemned today as grossly judgmental. And yet in effect, is it any different from saying, "We support the troops, but oppose the war(We have concern for the person, but disapprove of the cause)?" The latter position is assumed to be accepted as valid without question, despite the fact that the former is seen as intolerant. Interesting paradox.
Last year an editorial writer to my local newspaper made a preposterous claim. He declared that the only hope for the peaceful co-existence of mankind, was that each of us must accept and respect the other guy's truth. We can't be dogmatic and say the other guy is wrong. But in articulating such a standard, the writer himself is engaged in judging, not to mention being dogmatic. Applying Koukl's axiom to this situation, we might say that all people deserve respect because of their unique position as reflecting the image of God. But in the process of evaluating the cogency of ideas, the writer clearly is confused, as he seeks to reconstruct the term "truth," by making it tantamount to opinion.
The idea that we can never judge about anything is patently absurd. To say that we can never judge is to wander aimlessly. The scriptures tell us that we should reprove each other, speaking the truth in love. What our society lacks is righteous judgment. What we have an abundance of is knit-picking and indifference. Neither of those two alternatives promotes justice and righteousness.
Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on
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The Bible is very clear concerning people who cause harm to the spiritual health of the Church. It is not only a right but also a duty to judge those folks who stray from the truth. Many people do not realize that the Bible goes as far as to command us to judge.
The Apostle Paul also told believers, "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple" (Rom. 16:17-18).
The Lord Jesus Christ commanded, "Judge righteous judgment" (Jn. 7:24). He told a man, "Thou hast rightly judged" (Lk. 7:43). To others, our Lord asked, "Why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?" (Lk. 12:57).
The Apostle Paul wrote, "I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say" (1 Cor. 10:15). Again, Paul declared, "He that is spiritual judgeth all things" (1 Cor. 2:15). It is our assigned duty to judge.
This command could not be carried out if church leaders did not judge the works of those causing trouble.
The Apostle John said, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try [test, judge] the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" (1 Jn. 4:1).
Again he warned, "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.... If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds" (2 Jn. 7:10-11).
Posted by Hitch (Member # 5654) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kindgo:
The Bible is very clear concerning people who cause harm to the spiritual health of the Church. It is not only a right but also a duty to judge those folks who stray from the truth. Many people do not realize that the Bible goes as far as to command us to judge.
The Apostle Paul also told believers, "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple" (Rom. 16:17-18).
The Lord Jesus Christ commanded, "Judge righteous judgment" (Jn. 7:24). He told a man, "Thou hast rightly judged" (Lk. 7:43). To others, our Lord asked, "Why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?" (Lk. 12:57).
The Apostle Paul wrote, "I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say" (1 Cor. 10:15). Again, Paul declared, "He that is spiritual judgeth all things" (1 Cor. 2:15). It is our assigned duty to judge.
This command could not be carried out if church leaders did not judge the works of those causing trouble.
The Apostle John said, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try [test, judge] the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" (1 Jn. 4:1).
Again he warned, "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.... If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds" (2 Jn. 7:10-11).
Do you apply this to the many 'end time ' prgnosticators of our day?
Hitch
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
Main Entry: prog·nos·ti·cate
Pronunciation: präg-'näs-t&-"kAt
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -cat·ed; -cat·ing
1 : to foretell from signs or symptoms : PREDICT
2 : PRESAGE
Those who teach contrary to the Word are false teachers. This includes any who set the day or the hour of the Lord's return, such as Wiliam Miller.
Those who deny the physical Coming of the Lord and the specific passages of scripture which validate this are no less false and deceived.
Those who introduce a replacement theology and relegate the rise of the anti-christ to history, such as 70 AD are no less deceived and false.
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