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Topic: The Immortality of Man???

becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

posted

Man is as immortal as Yahweh is!

Man is created in HIS image.

The fall of man did not alter man's image ,with the fall came death, separation from Yahweh the Father.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
This body that decays must be changed into a body that cannot decay. This mortal body must be changed into a body that will live forever ,,,, 1 Corinthians 15:53

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

Hawkins
New Member
Member # 7127

posted

You have to align with the Church view. A soul is immortal to be saved. Or else, Christ will save your from what? Christ save you from emptiness.

It is an anti-Christ view against the Church to say that the soul is not immortal such that one may find his relief/escape without Jesus Christ. It is denial of the Savior as the doctrine implies that no Christ is needed as a result of no soul nor hell exists.

Moreover, the value of the existence of the Church is to keep a standard of Gospel such that noone can be a more authenticated interpreter of the Scripture, or an author of new Bible version. The Church is a spiritual authority on earth.

So when all of you advocate here that the Church is wrong and you are right. I have to say that the Church is right and you are under the influence of another spiritual force called the anti-Christ.

Your possible mistake made here with the misleading information will inevitably lead souls away from God. And I think that you should reconsider your stance before you decide to be against the Church by risking yourself being called the murderer of souls. (no offense)

Posts: 5 | From: Hong Kong | Registered: Apr 2008 | IP: Logged |

Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

posted

Immortality and Eternal Life

Immortality is not identical with the gift of eternal life, which all believers in Christ possess. Believers who possess eternal life, as well as unbelievers, suffer death. The only possibility of a believer’s not dying is the coming of the Lord and the instantaneous glorification of his human body (1 Corinthians 15:51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17).

The possession of eternal life guarantees a future immortal body either by translation or resurrection, but the body of the saved person is only potentially immortal (Romans 8:22-23; 2 Corinthians 5:1-5). All who have eternal life are thus guaranteed the future immortality of the body, that is, they are promised either resurrection unto life or translation unto glory.

In either case the result is the same—namely, a glorified body that is immortal, deathless, painless, and sinless, united to the redeemed soul and spirit. This fully redeemed personality is what the Bible means by immortality.

Unsaved people who do not possess eternal life possess a mortal body that will never be immortal. Their soul and spirit will go on existing forever but their body, raised for judgment, will suffer “the second death” at the sinner’s judgment of the white throne (Revelation 20:14). This is not annihilation. This is eternal conscious existence in "separation" from God, and thus torment and what is called “fire which burns with brimstone.” Apparently the term “second death” implies the dissolution or corruption of the resurrected body of the unsaved whose personality does not possess immortality.

Only those who believe on Christ, “who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see” (1 Timothy 6:16), obtain that same immortality that Christ, as the Firstfruit, secured by His death and resurrection. Immortality, then, is brought “to light through the gospel” (2 Timothy 1:10). Immortality belongs to the realm of the body as it affects the whole redeemed man.

Immortality cannot be correctly used of the soul. It must be posited of the incorruption or incorruptibility of the body as it affects the whole man . The destiny of the believer is to be transformed “into conformity with the body of His glory” (Philippians 3:21).

Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007 | IP: Logged |

Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

posted

quote:
If you look at the Hebrew/Greek interlinear text, you will find that the phrase "forever and ever", is a Greek idiom that means "until the end of the age". I urge you to check this out and see.

I did check it out.

Hebrews 1:8
But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever ; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

The phrase “forever and ever” (“to the ages of the ages”), describing the destiny of the lost, also applies in Hebrews 1:8 to the duration of the throne of God as eternal in the sense of being unending. Thus is represented the punishment of the wicked.

αἰών

aiōn

Definition:

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity

2) the worlds, universe

3) period of time, age (your definition)

Total KJV Occurrences: 129

for ever, 72

Matt 6:13, Matt 21:19, Mark 11:14, Luke 1:33, Luke 1:55, John 6:51, John 6:58, John 8:35 (2), John 12:34, John 14:16, Rom 1:25, Rom 9:5, Rom 11:36, Rom 16:27, 2 Cor 9:9, Gal 1:5 (2), Phil 4:20 (2), 1 Tim 1:17 (2), 2 Tim 4:18 (2), Heb 1:8 (2), Heb 5:6, Heb 6:20, Heb 7:17, Heb 7:21, Heb 7:24, Heb 13:8, Heb 13:21 (2), 1 Pet 1:23, 1 Pet 1:25, 1 Pet 5:11 (4), 2 Pet 3:17-18 (2), 1 John 2:17, 2 John 1:2, Jude 1:13, Jude 1:25, Rev 1:6 (2), Rev 4:9-10 (4), Rev 5:13-14 (4), Rev 7:12 (2), Rev 10:6 (2), Rev 11:15 (2), Rev 14:11 (2), Rev 15:7 (2), Rev 19:3 (2), Rev 20:10 (2), Rev 22:5 (2)

(Thayer’s Greek Definitions)

Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007 | IP: Logged |

Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801

posted

quote:
O clifford
quote:
Again the sarcasm is not necessary, but, yes I am a man, no I am not inspired by the Holy Spirit, and I am fairly confident that other men who wrote that dictionary are not inspired either, since Paul tells us in scripture when talking to the Ephesian saints, that he had not failed to tell them all that the Holy Spirit had revealed to him. Referring to verses, is not the same as divine inspiration, as I am sure you will agree.

I know, you were speaking to carol. But I tell you that God has the same love for you as HE did for Paul. Therefore, He desires to reveal to you also, and not leave you to your own devices.

Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007 | IP: Logged |

Clifford
Community Member
Member # 7264

posted

Carol:

You posted a statement that quoted Revelation:

Revelation 20:10 (NLT)
10 Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

If you look at the Hebrew/Greek interlinear text, you will find that the phrase "forever and ever", is a Greek idiom that means "until the end of the age". I urge you to check this out and see.

Then:

Oh dear. I believe that prgram was written by men.

You might as well look for eyelashes of the soul, or bone marrow of the soul.

Look for "everlasting life" instead. Look for "for ever".

No need to be sarcastic, but yes the program to find information in the data base was written by men, but the data base it searches was not. I don't know how much you understand about computers and computer programs, but the program is only asked to find certain words in a complete data base. The whole of the KJV of the bible is available to the program, it was asked to find "immortal" and "soul" together in the existing data base. It did not. Which means one of two things, either the people who put the data base information in left out any occurrences of the words "immortal" and "soul" that they may have found in the KJV bible, or, as the results show, those words together, do not exist in the KJV bible.

Then you posted this:

Are you not a man? Are YOU inspired by the Holy Spirit?

How do you know they were not inspired by the Holy Spirit? DO YOU NOT SEE ALL THEIR REFERENCES TO BIBLE VERSES?

Shall I listen to you, a man, or to Bible scholars? Hmmmm. Let me think. Hmmmm. Hmmmmm. I think I will listen to the Bible scholars

Again the sarcasm is not necessary, but, yes I am a man, no I am not inspired by the Holy Spirit, and I am fairly confident that other men who wrote that dictionary are not inspired either, since Paul tells us in scripture when talking to the Ephesian saints, that he had not failed to tell them all that the Holy Spirit had revealed to him. Referring to verses, is not the same as divine inspiration, as I am sure you will agree. Satan quotes the bible, check and see if that is not true. Lastly, I have never asked anyone in this board to listen to me, I have repeatedly asked you all to check and see what the word of God says. I, like all men, am a sinner. Therefore, I am not perfect and can make mistakes, but God does not make mistakes and it is his word I have quoted to you, not a bible dictionary. As for listening to bible scholars: Christ had in his day the leading bible scholars of his time, those to whom the oracles of God had been given, and the service of the temple, the best bible scholars of his time, and what did he call them???? A nest of vipers. So as to taking the word of any man, bible scholar or otherwise, no I don't. I have tried to bring this thread back to God's word and as of my final posting here, and it will be my last, none of you have yet to give me scripture stating that man has or was created with an "immortal" "soul".

Instead you have attacked anyone who dares to contradict what you "believe", even to the point of calling into question the word of God.

Scripture says "flesh and blood" cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. If this is true, and the book of Job is full of statements about the body of flesh and blood dying and corrupting, then a new body must be created. And THAT is what scripture actually says: 2 Cor. 15:35 - 55, that corruption must PUT ON incorruption, that this mortal must put on immortality, just go ahead and ignore what this says, if we had an immortal soul then there would be no need to put on immortality, we would already have it from birth. Also, what need for Christ then, who alone is said to have immortality, and when you read these verses it does not say immortal body it just says mortal and immortality, I do not limit God as to what that may apply to, but this I know, it has to be PUT ON and is his gift to us; when, at resurrection, that is the subject of the whole of 2 Cor 15, resurrection.

Please read the word, and just what is written, not what you want it to say or mean. Let the word of God speak for itself. If it says, man became a "living" soul, not and "immortal" soul, let it say that, don't read into it what is not there.

I pray that the Holy Spirit will guide all of you into his truth, but first you have to love the truth, and only Christ is truth, if you start removing him from everything, then you loose truth and Christ both.

"2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2 Tim 4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

Again I say to you, tradition is what caused the Jews to become Lo Ammi, and it can happen to us as well. Listen to the word of God, not the word of men.

In Christian Love

Clifford

Posts: 11 | From: Sacramento, CA USA | Registered: Jul 2008 | IP: Logged |

Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801

posted

quote:

But, sadly, I find very little grace from those who, because they are unable to provide Scripture to clearly prove the immortality of the souls of those born in flesh and blood, they ATTACK in any way possible the comments made in the postings of those who believe in the Resurrection power of the LORD to confer immortality upon the spirits of those who have died and who sleep in Christ Jesus.

quote:

Sometimes what we have traditionally have held to be true is removed from reality. So to search these things out is fine, if we are slow to come to conclusions. However it is eccleaseastical to do so, just like it is tiring to research. (I'll take a tired emoticon here.)

I don't believe that any 'believers' sleep. They are with Christ. "Absent from body, present with the Lord." And this also includes those of the OT, since Christ died. Those however, who are on the judgment side of God, sleep, though they will not miss the length of time that has passed since they fell asleep. Who wants to trouble with whether they do or don't? But that the soul is eternal, is! Whatever God creates, does not go away. Now:

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Ok! I have always assumed that Adam and Eve would have been 'filled' with the Spirit of God. Perhaps not! Maybe he was in relationship with God without the indwelling of the Spirit of God. It will have to be prayerfully reasearched a bit more. I think. But there is no question that the latter man, after Christ, was to be filled with the very Spirit of God very himself, to 'reconcile' us to Him in a wonderful beyond words, way.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Therefore we see that this verse perhaps confirms, maybe, that Adam was a natural man, who had a recognition of 'the' God. This would go along with what you are saying, along with this verse:

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

But this one throws your speculation a curve! Nay, it sinks it like the Bismark (if I read correctly).

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

But when the natural body, which through the fall of Adam, dies, the soul continues.

Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007 | IP: Logged |

apilgrim2
Advanced Member
Member # 7182

posted

quote:
Originally posted by TB125:
apilgrim2,
You cite this verse of scripture in defense of your commentary:
quote:
2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
But that is not what the Greek text says. There is no word for "scripture" in this text. The Greek word is "graphe", which is the word for "writing". The key phrase is "graphe Theopheustos", which is to be translated "writing which is inspired by God".

So your cited text does not support your commentary, and your "translation" is only another example of this problem of biblical interpretation that is being demonstrated in this thread when we depend upon "proof-texting" quotations from "translated" biblical documents.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Hi Bob . . . you are clearly upset about our recent postings in this thread, and I can easily understand why you would be. But you seem to be beating the air.

The cited verse of Scripture I used to support my posting to Carolyn supports perfectly the point I made. In fact it is even more on point with the assistance you provided. This is why I included it in the posting.

If you go back through my postings since the beginning of this thread you will read:

"Let us bear with each other in Christian LOVE! Let us give thanks for the Grace of God without which our lives would be very sad indeed. Grace for you, and Grace for me . . . Grace for all who believe."..."we have something PRECIOUS in common which, I believe, should not be overlooked, which is faith in Christ Jesus!"

But, sadly, I find very little grace from those who, because they are unable to provide Scripture to clearly prove the immortality of the souls of those born in flesh and blood, they ATTACK, although rather feebly, the comments made in support of Scriptures in the postings of those who believe in the Resurrection power of the LORD to confer immortality upon the spirits of those who have died and who sleep in Christ Jesus.

In a previous post in response to one of mine you wrote:

"...you theologians who are teaching that the souls of human beings are not immortal and will not be in existence prior to the final resurrection..."

What ? ? ? Unable to respond directly to the request for Scripture that PROVES what you believe, or that DISPROVES what Cliff and I believe, you come to the defense of the offended by putting words in our mouths that never came out of them in the first place. Slick.

Once more, the soul is the breath of life and the dust of the ground. The breath of life, or the spirit, pneuma, given to every one that is born of Adam, is that which returns unto the One Who gave it.

Your basic misunderstanding, and apparent refusal to accept what Scripture states about what a "soul" is, as it is so CLEARLY expressed in Genesis, is a CLEAR indication of the pervasive blindness that is prevalent here.

Please have the last word on this matter for those who care to read it.

-apilgrim2

--------------------
"Relativity applies to physics, NOT ethics." - A. Einstein

Posts: 49 | From: Sacramento California | Registered: May 2008 | IP: Logged |

Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

posted

quote:
Once again no one has answered my question. Where IN SCRIPTURE does it say that man has or was created with an "immortal soul". Everyone wants to tell me what they think, or what other men think, about the body, the soul, death, the grave, and a host of other things. Carol you quote from a dictionary written by men, not inspired by the Holy Spirit

Are you not a man? Are YOU inspired by the Holy Spirit?

How do you know they were not inspired by the Holy Spirit? DO YOU NOT SEE ALL THEIR REFERENCES TO BIBLE VERSES?

Shall I listen to you, a man, or to Bible scholars? Hmmmm. Let me think. Hmmmm. Hmmmmm. I think I will listen to the Bible scholars. [Big Grin]

Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007 | IP: Logged |

Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

posted

quote:
Sorry! The search criteria that you entered, immortality soul, does not yield any results in the KJV. You may wish to check Secondary Results on the tab above to expand the breadth of your search.

Oh dear. I believe that program was written by men.

You might as well look for eyelashes of the soul, or bone marrow of the soul. "Immortal" refers to the body.

Look for "everlasting life" instead. Look for "for ever".

Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007 | IP: Logged |

Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

posted

Clifford

quote:
Now no where in any of these verses does it say Satan will live forever, and if you think this is not about Satan, I ask you again, what man/sinner has ever been in Eden beside Adam and Eve? Adam was NOT a covering cherub, ever! He was not anointed by God, therefore the only other players in Eden were Satan and Eve, and this certainly does not describe Eve!!

Revelation 20:10 (NLT)
10 Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007 | IP: Logged |

Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

posted

Clifford

quote:
Carol you made this statement:

quote:
"Immortal" refers to the body
Would you please give me the scripture verse where it says that "immortal" refers to the body?

Romans 8:11 (NLT)
The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by this same Spirit living within you.

1 Corinthians 15:52 - 53 (NLT)
52 It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed. 53 For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.

Philippians 3:20 - 21 (NLT)
20 But we are citizens of heaven, where the Lord Jesus Christ lives. And we are eagerly waiting for him to return as our Savior. 21 He will take our weak mortal bodies and change them into glorious bodies like his own , using the same power with which he will bring everything under his control.

YLT:

53for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality;

NRSV:

53For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

TMSG:

53In the resurrection scheme of things, this has to happen: everything perishable taken off the shelves and replaced by the imperishable, this mortal replaced by the immortal.

NKJV:

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

NCV:

53This body that can be destroyed must clothe itself with something that can never be destroyed. And this body that dies must clothe itself with something that can never die.

KJV:

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

ISVNT:

53For what is decaying must put on what cannot decay, and what is dying must put on what cannot die.

ESV:

53For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

DRB:

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption: and this mortal must put on immortality.

DNT:

53For this corruptible must needs put on incorruptibility, and this mortal put on immortality.

ASV:

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

RSV:

53For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality.

MSNT:

53For so it must be: this perishable nature must clothe itself with what is imperishable, and this mortality must clothe itself with immortality.

NLT:

53For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.

TEV:

53For what is mortal must be changed into what is immortal; what will die must be changed into what cannot die.

GWT:

53This body that decays must be changed into a body that cannot decay. This mortal body must be changed into a body that will live forever.

Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007 | IP: Logged |

Clifford
Community Member
Member # 7264

posted

Hello again everyone:

Once again no one has answered my question. Where IN SCRIPTURE does it say that man has or was created with an "immortal soul". Everyone wants to tell me what they think, or what other men think, about the body, the soul, death, the grave, and a host of other things. Carol you quote from a dictionary written by men, not inspired by the Holy Spirit, since Rev. 22:18, 19, says:

quote:
Rev 22, 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

God has warned man that adding to his word, or taking away anything from his word has dire consequences. I believe God! So if the words "immortal soul" are not found in scripture, as in the post I made on August 30;

quote:
Sorry! The search criteria that you entered, immortality soul, does not yield any results in the KJV. You may wish to check Secondary Results on the tab above to expand the breadth of your search.

which search I did expand;

quote:
I expanded the search:

quote: (immortality AND soul)
occurs in 0 verses in the KJV (see Primary Results).
Here are some additional combinations of your search terms.
(More Info)
See Primary Results
5 verses
432 verses

Note that for "immortality soul" I was referred back to the primary results, but for immortal (5) hits and soul (432) hits, I got references to the words separately. This clearly shows that in scripture, the words "immortality AND soul" as listed above do NOT appear any where in scripture.

which no one in this thread has addressed!! The Blue Letter Bible is an online data base, that is non-denominational and is available to anyone "interested" in finding out what God's word says.

Not one of you has commented on the fact that in the Blue Letter Bible data base, of the KJV, do the words "immortal" and "soul" appear together.

Carol you made this statement:

quote:
"Immortal" refers to the body

Would you please give me the scripture verse where it says that "immortal" refers to the body? And if so which body? The flesh that Adam passes on to every human, the resurrection body (described as earthy and heavenly) or any other body in scripture. I do not find any scripture that says that "immortal" refers to the body. Chapter and verse would be appreciated, not a quotation from the observations of the men/women who wrote the dictionary you are quoting from. I would like God's word on this issue please, not mans, and thank you in advance.

Billy, your record seems to be stuck. You keep quoting a paragraph wherein you state I have not answered your questions. I counter that you never answered mine. I asked you to give me Chapter and verse where it states that man has or was created with an "immortal soul", and all you gave me was your interpretation of what you think scripture means. If this were a truth of God's word, it would be clearly written, such as the truth of Gen. 2:7, were it says:

quote:
And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Please show me the verse as I asked anyone to do in the beginning of this thread, where it confutes this statement, and says instead of man becoming a "living" soul he got or was created with an "immortal" soul. Remember God's warning in Revelation about adding words that are not in God's word. When you answer the first question I asked you, then I will respond verse by verse to you questions. But please, out of courtesy, answer mine first. Then we can proceed.

Michael Harrison I quote the following:

quote:
In hell, satan will be looked upon as a man just like all the sinners who rejected Christ. And for the rest of these who are quoted below, death means 'separation from Christ'. It does not mean that one ceases to exist. Duh! So when it says that the soul dies, it means that it is in fact immortal, but is dead in separation from God

First of all, when does death = immortaliity, which is what you say in your quote above; where in scripture does it say that Satan will be looked upon as "just like all sinners"? Satan is described as the author of sin. I quote the following from Ezekiel, a Lamentation against the King of Tyre, who is a type of Satan::

quote:
Eze 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Eze 28:14 Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Eze 28:15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

This creature is described as being in Eden, what man beside Adam was ever in Eden? What man was ever full of wisdom and perfect in beauty? What man ever had every precious stone as his covering? What man was ever an anointed cherub that covereth, and was set so by God? What man was ever on the Holy Mountain of God? What man ever walked up and down on the stones of fire? And here is the clincher this creature, the covering cherub, the anointed cherub, the one who walked up and down on the stones of fire, was perfect in his ways from the day he was "created" until "iniquity" was found in him? God says "By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned", here is the author of sin clearly described IN SCRIPTURE , and what is the end of this once supernatural, but created being?

This is in God's word: "Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee."

and then:

"therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."

God does not say this creature will be alive in hell someplace, he says he will bring a "fire" from the midst of him, and it will "devour" him and God will bring him to "ashes" upon the earth so all can see him and what happens to any created creature who rebel against God. Now no where in any of these verses does it say Satan will live forever, and if you think this is not about Satan, I ask you again, what man/sinner has ever been in Eden beside Adam and Eve? Adam was NOT a covering cherub, ever! He was not anointed by God, therefore the only other players in Eden were Satan and Eve, and this certainly does not describe Eve!!

I thank you all for your personal observations, but again, please show me IN SCRIPTURE, were the things are written that you all say are written. And again, I recommend a Hebrew/Greek translation of the bible as a adjunct to any study of the scriptures.

Thank you all,

In Christian Love,

Clifford

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TB125
Advanced Member
Member # 2450

posted

apilgrim2,
You cite this verse of scripture in defense of your commentary:

quote:
2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

But that is not what the Greek text says. There is no word for "scripture" in this text. The Greek word is "graphe", which is the word for "writing". The key phrase is "graphe Theopheustos", which is to be translated "writing which is inspired by God".

So your cited text does not support your commentary, and your "translation" is only another example of this problem of biblical interpretation that is being demonstrated in this thread when we depend upon "proof-texting" quotations from "translated" biblical documents.

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Bob

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apilgrim2
Advanced Member
Member # 7182

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:

"Immortal" refers to the body.

Believers will receive a glorified body that is immortal, deathless, painless, and sinless, united to the redeemed soul and spirit. This fully redeemed personality is what the Bible means by immortality.

But the soul survives the body. A future state for both righteous and wicked is plainly declared by Jesus Himself . “He that believeth on me,” He said to Martha, “though he die, yet shall he live; and whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die” (Jn 11:25 f). To His disciples He said, “If I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also” (Jn 14:3). Compare His words to the penitent thief: “To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise” (Lk 23:43). The survival of both righteous and wicked is implied in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Lk 16:19-31). So in many other places (e.g. Mt 5:29 f; 10:28; 11:21-24; 12:41, etc.). The same is the teaching of the epistles. The doctrine of a future judgment depends on and presupposes this truth (Rom 2:5-11; 2 Cor 5:10, etc.).

(International Standard Bible Encyclopedia) [/QUOTE]

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Hi Carol,

The writers of the ISB Encyclopedia demonstrate a basic misunderstanding of what the soul is when it says; "united to the redeemed soul and spirit".

The soul, as Scripture clearly states, is comprised of the breath of life and the dust of the ground:

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

So to say that "a glorified body that is immortal . . . is to be united to the redeemed soul" is to say the an immortal body is to be united to the breath of life and to the dust of the ground, which is what a "living soul" is according to the Word of God.

Reliance upon Bible encyclopedia and Bible dictionaries, upon the 'Concise Theology', upon the 'Handbook of Christian Apologetics', and upon various 'commentaries' on the New Testament, etc., is to receive and accept what fallible human beings believe about what the Word of God Itself says.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Someone else wrote that God does not invite us to comment upon His Word, but rather to believe it. I prefer to prayerfully consider the Word of God itself, to wait upon the Lord to open the eyes of my understanding of His Word, and to avoid much of what the orthodoxy of tradition has to say about what God says in His Word of Truth.

I may refer to a learned Bible scholar's researched writings about the original languages in which the Word was written. We may disagree about the value of orthodox tradition, but we have something PRECIOUS in common which, I believe, should not be overlooked, which is faith in Christ Jesus!

I will include part of one of my previous postings here:

"The Bible is a LIVING Word; it is a DYNAMIC Word. Scripture is surely not a simple document, and while it's Truths are absolute, its truths may not be understood in their deepest sense by every individual in EXACTLY the same way.

Let us bear with each other in Christian LOVE! Let us give thanks for the Grace of God without which our lives would be very sad indeed. Grace for you, and Grace for me . . . Grace for all who believe."

"...and therein I do rejoice, and WILL rejoice."

May God bless and keep you always in His perfect care,

-apilgrim2

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"Relativity applies to physics, NOT ethics." - A. Einstein

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Carol Swenson
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Clifford

quote:
I repeat, if you can, please give me a verse in scripture where the words IMMORTAL and SOUL are used together, or where it says man has, or was created with an immortal soul.

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apilgrim2
Advanced Member
Member # 7182

posted

Hello Bob,

Being supported by Scripture in what one believes is a wonderful thing and a source of tremendous comfort. One can either read the verse the way virtually every translation has presented it, or one can look at the vast preponderance of Scripture and find that there are no other verses in Scripture that support the common translation.

The original Greek in which the New Testament was written did not include punctuation as it is used today, or as it has been used for centuries. (Please refer to the Companion Bible Appendix 94, cited below) The translators under King James either followed instructions or they placed the comma where they believed it should go.

Ultimately one must decide for one's self. You are free to read the verse exactly as it has been translated, you can attempt to find support for the verse as it appears, pray about it, and make your decision. If the use of punctuation in a particular translation or commentary seems beyond question to you, then your decision requires no further investigation.

The context of the verse in question certainly suggests that it was without question a momentous day, and so it would by no means be beyond possibility that the Lord would have said: "I say unto you this day; thou shalt be with me in Paradise."

Each of the the following verses contains the words "this day" followed by a comma. This illustrates that, whether in the Hebrew of the OT or the Greek of the NT, in the structure of these particular phrases which include the words "this day" the emphasis is placed upon the preceding clause. This is not to say that there are no examples of the same words being used that show emphasis on the subsequent clause.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Deu 30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, [and that] ye shall not prolong [your] days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

Deu 32:46 And he said unto them, Set your hearts unto all the words which I testify among you this day, which ye shall command your children to observe to do, all the words of this law.

Act 20:26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I [am] pure from the blood of all [men].

Act 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

Act 26:29 And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.

2Cr 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

The Companion Bible, Appendix 94

V. THE MANUSCRIPTS of the Greek New Testament dating from the fourth century A.D. are more in number than those of any Greek or Roman author, for these latter are rare, and none are really ancient; while those of the New Testament have been set down by Dr. Scrivener at not less than 3,600, a few containing the whole, and the rest various parts, of the New Testament.

The study of these from a literary point of view has been called "Textual Criticism", and it necessarily proceeds altogether on documentary evidence; while "Modern Criticism" introduces the element of human opinion and hypothesis.

Man has never made a proper use of God's gifts. God gave men the sun, moon, and stars for signs, and for seasons, to govern the day, and the night, and the years. But no one to-day can tell us what year (Anno Mundi) we are actually living in! In like manner God gave us His Word, but man, compassed with infirmity, has failed to preserve and transmit it faithfully.

The worst part of this is that man charges God with the result, and throws the blame on Him for all the confusuion due to his own want of care.

The Old Testament had from very early times official custodians of the Hebrew text. Its Guilds of Scribes, Nakdanim, Sopherim, and Massorites elaborated plans by which the original text has been preserved with the greatest possible care (see Appendix 93).5 But though, in this respect, it had advantages which the Greek text of the New Testament never had, it nevertheless shows many signs of human failure and infirmity. Man has only to touch anything to leave his mark upon it.

Hence the Manuscripts of the Greek Testament are to be studied to-day with the utmost care. The materials are :-

i. The Manuscripts themselves in whole or in part.
ii. Ancient versions made from them in other languages6.
iii. Citations made from them by early Christian writers long before the oldest Manuscripts we possess (see Appendix 168).

i. As to the Manuscripts themselves we must leave all palaeo-graphical matters aside (such as have to do with paper, ink, and caligraphy), and confine ourselves to what is material.

1. These Manuscripts consist of two classes: (a) Those written in Uncial (or capital) letters; and (b) those written in "running hand", called Cursives.
The former are considered to be the more ancient, although it is obvious and undeniable that some cursives may be transcripts of uncial Manuscripts more ancient than any existing uncial Manuscript.
This will show that we cannot depend altogether upon textual criticism.

2. It is more to our point to note that what are called "breathings" (soft or hard) and accents are not found in any Manuscripts before the seventh century (unless they have been added by a later hand).

3. Punctuation also, as we have it to-day, is entirely absent. The earliest two Manuscripts (known as B, the Manuscript in the Vatican and Hebrew aleph the Sinaitic Manuscript, now at St. Petersburg) have only an occasional dot, and this on a level with the top of the letters.

The text reads on without any divisions between letters or words until Manuscripts of the ninth century, when (in Cod. Augiensis, now in Cambridge) there is seen for the first time a single point which separates each word. This dot is placed in the middle of the line, but is often omitted.

None of our modern marks of punctuation are found until the ninth century, and then only in Latin versions and some cursives.

From this it will be seen that the punctuation of all modern editions of the Greek text, and of all versions made from it, rests entirely on human authority, and has no weight whatever in determining or even influencing the interpretation of a single passage. This refers also to the employment of capital letters, and to all the modern literary refinements of the present day.

4. Chapters also were alike unknown. The Vatican Manuscript ,makes a new section where there is an evident break in the sense. Thes# e are called titloi, or kephalaia 8.
There are none in Hebrew aleph (Sinaitic), see above. They are not found till the fifth century in Codex A (British Museum), Codex C (Ephraemi, Paris), and in Codex R (Nitriensis, British Museum) of the sixth century.
They are quite foreign to the original texts. For a long time they were attributed to HUGUES DE ST. CHER (Huego de Sancto Caro), Provincial to the Dominicans in France, and afterwards a Cardinal in Spain, who died in 1263. But it is now generally believed that they were made by STEPHEN LANGTON, Archbishop of Canterbury, who died in 1227.
It follows therefore that our modern chapter divisions also are destitute of Manuscript, authority.

5. As to verses. In the Hebrew Old Testament these were fixed and counted for each book by the Massorites; but they are unknown in any Manuscripts of the Greek New Testament. There are none in the first printed text in The Complutensian Polyglot (1437 - 1517), or in the first printed Greek text (Erasmus, in 1516), or in R. Stephens's first edition in 1550.
Verses were first introduced in Stephens's smaller (16mo) edition, published in 1551 at Geneva. These also are therefore destitute of any authority.

--------------------
"Relativity applies to physics, NOT ethics." - A. Einstein

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Carol Swenson
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Luke 23:43

To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise —Marcion and the Manichees are reported to have left this verse out of their copies of this evangelist. This saying of our Lord is justly considered as a strong proof of the immateriality of the soul; and it is no wonder that those who have embraced the contrary opinion should endeavor to explain away this meaning. In order to do this, a comma is placed after σημερον, to-day, and then our Lord is supposed to have meant, “Thou shalt be with me after the resurrection. I tell thee this, To-Day.” I am sorry to find men of great learning and abilities attempting to support this most feeble and worthless criticism. Such support a good cause cannot need; and, in my opinion, even a bad cause must be discredited by it.

(Adam Clarke’s Commentary on the New Testament)

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Michael Harrison
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posted

Be it far from me to interrupt you pundits again, but are ye nicklewits? Who is wise among you?

To quote Clifford:
I only believe the scripture. No where does Paul ever use the word "annihilation", he does however use the word perish. And if God says "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not PERISH but have everlasting life", and "He that hath the Son hath life, and he that hath not the Son hath not life", then that is what God means. He does not say, that he that hath not the Son of God goes to hell, to live on forever and ever, under Satan's control, which implies also that Satan has immortality, or he could not be directing an everlasting hell, which is a monstrous blasphemy to me, to imply that Satan has immortality like Christ!!I only believe the scripture. No where does Paul ever use the word "annihilation", he does however use the word perish. And if God says "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not PERISH but have everlasting life", and "He that hath the Son hath life, and he that hath not the Son hath not life", then that is what God means. He does not say, that he that hath not the Son of God goes to hell, to live on forever and ever, under Satan's control, which implies also that Satan has immortality, or he could not be directing an everlasting hell, which is a monstrous blasphemy to me, to imply that Satan has immortality like Christ!! CLIFFORD

Well Clifford, here is (and dig these numbers) Isaiah 14:15,16 , talking about satan: Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, [and] consider thee, [saying, Is] this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

In hell, satan will be looked upon as a man just like all the sinners who rejected Christ. And for the rest of these who are quoted below, death means 'separation from Christ'. It does not mean that one ceases to exist. Duh! So when it says that the soul dies, it means that it is in fact immortal, but is dead in separation from God.

~The remaining quotes!~
Indeed, we can deduce from Scripture that the believer's perception of time between his death in this body of flesh and resurrection in a body likened unto The LORD's body, will seem but a brief interval, no matter how long they sleep in Christ Jesus. It may be to the believer as though it never happened at all. APILGRIM2

Because he was delivered from death, his soul was delivered from the pit of corruption, that is, the grave. The living, they are the ones who praise God. The dead cannot, because they are not living souls. All such nonsense if the soul is immortal. KEIF

Every soul that will not hear and accept Christ, will be destroyed. KEIF

The soul needs saving, it is not immortal.,KEIF

Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007 | IP: Logged |

TB125
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posted

Clifford and apilgrim and others,
Would you theologians who are teaching that the souls of human beings are not immortal and will not be in existence prior to the final resurrection please explain what Jesus meant when he told the thief who apparently believed in him and asked him to "remember" him that "today you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43)as they both faced certain death?

--------------------
Bob

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Billy
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posted

Clifford,

I must point out that, yet again, you don't answer my questions. I have been very gracious by answering yours, but you flat refuse to answer mine. How many more times will I have to exhort you to do so? One. This is it. I will indulge you no further. I will sit back and wait for you to answer all of my questions before I will reply to you again. If you continue to refuse, I will dust my feet off and be done with you. I refuse to waste my time writing lengthy posts and answering the same questions over and over again, while you refuse to answer mine. Apparently, you are more comfortable being on the offensive, because you never defend yourself, but avoid the issues that I raise. I love you, brother, but I could be spending my time doing other things for the Lord. Instead you would have me waste my time by writing at length about a subject that is paramount in my theology, and you don't even feel the need to show enough respect for my posts to answer them. Regardless of whether or not I come across as respectful with my answers, at least I respect you enough to answer. If you don't stop disregarding my posts, I will be done with you.

In Christ,
Billy.

ps. I have given you scripture, but you will not respond to it. How long will you avoid looking into the mirror of the law? Your insistent avoidance of my questions shows that you don't want to answer them. Or is it perhaps that you cannot answer them and keep your doctrine intact?

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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.

- The Apostle Paul

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Billy
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Clifford
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posted

Hello everyone:

First let me apologize for a period of absence from the board. In March of this year I had my second bout with cancer, and had to have my left kidney removed, an extensive surgery from which I am still recovering. That said.

Billy and everyone else: Please look at the name of this thread. I have asked one question and one question only "please show me anywhere in scripture where it says that man was created with or has an immortal soul." Again, to date no one has quoted any scripture verse that says that man was created with an immortal soul or has an immortal soul, so I did some research of my own on a site called the Blue Letter Bible.

Here are the results:

quote:
Sorry! The search criteria that you entered, immortality soul, does not yield any results in the KJV. You may wish to check Secondary Results on the tab above to expand the breadth of your search.

I expanded the search:

quote:
(immortality AND soul)
occurs in 0 verses in the KJV (see Primary Results).
Here are some additional combinations of your search terms.
(More Info)
See Primary Results
5 verses
432 verses

Note that for "immortality soul" I was referred back to the primary results, but for immortal (5) hits and soul (432) hits, I got references to the words separately. This clearly shows that in scripture, the words "immortality AND soul" as listed above do NOT appear any where in scripture.

Then after carefully reading Keith's post I did the following search "soul death living":

My results:

quote:
Psalm 56:13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: [wilt] not [thou deliver] my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

Then I looked under the secondary tab again and found this:

quote:
soul AND death AND living)
occurs in 1 verses in the KJV (see Primary Results).
Here are some additional combinations of your search terms.
(More Info)
See Primary Results - (soul death living)
16 verses - (soul death)
8 verses - (soul living)
3 verses - (death living)
432 verses - (soul)
342 verses - (death)
139 verses - (living)
Return to Top

quote:
Exd. 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it [is] holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth [any] work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Jdg 16:16 And it came to pass, when she pressed him daily with her words, and urged him, [so] that his soul was vexed unto death;

1Sa 20:3 And David sware moreover, and said, Thy father certainly knoweth that I have found grace in thine eyes; and he saith, Let not Jonathan know this, lest he be grieved: but truly [as] the LORD liveth, and [as] thy soul liveth, [there is] but a step between me and death.

Job 7:15 So that my soul chooseth strangling, [and] death rather than my life.

Psa 33:19 To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine.

Psa 56:13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: [wilt] not [thou deliver] my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

Psa 78:50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence;

Psa 89:48 What man [is he that] liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

Psa 107:18 Their soul abhorreth all manner of meat; and they draw near unto the gates of death.

Psa 116:8 For thou hast delivered my soul from death, mine eyes from tears, [and] my feet from falling.

Pro 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Jer 38:16 So Zedekiah the king sware secretly unto Jeremiah, saying, [As] the LORD liveth, that made us this soul, I will not put thee to death, neither will I give thee into the hand of these men that seek thy life.

Mat 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

Mar 14:34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.

Jam 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

quote:
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Job 12:10 In whose hand [is] the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

Job 33:30 To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living.

Psa 42:2 My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

Psa 56:13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: [wilt] not [thou deliver] my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

Psa 84:2 My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of the LORD: my heart and my flesh crieth out for the living God.

1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead [man]: and every living soul died in the sea

quote:
2Sam 20:3 And David came to his house at Jerusalem; and the king took the ten women [his] concubines, whom he had left to keep the house, and put them in ward, and fed them, but went not in unto them. So they were shut up unto the day of their death, living in widowhood.

Job 30:23 For I know [that] thou wilt bring me [to] death, and [to] the house appointed for all living.

Psa 56:13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: [wilt] not [thou deliver] my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

And it goes on. I CHALLENGE any of you to repeat my searches and find, if you can, where in scripture it uses the words "immortal AND soul" together. By the results of the search that I did, God references only living, death, and soul together. I repeat, if you can, please give me a verse in scripture where the words IMMORTAL and SOUL are used together, or where it says man has, or was created with an immortal soul.

All the verses that were found in my search for living, death, and soul parallel or quote what Keith also found. Now, two of us have found that in God's word, soul means a living being, that the soul is subject to either life or death, it can live or die. Anything that can die, is not immortal. So there is only one of two conclusions that can possibly be made:

1. EITHER GOD IS A LIAR AND HIS WORD IS IN ERROR,

OR

2. THE DOCTRINE OF AN "IMMORTAL" SOUL COMES FROM MANS IDEA, IS NO WHERE TO BE FOUND IN GOD'S WORD AND IS A TRADITION OF MEN, AND IS FALLIBLE AND IN ERROR.

Either we believe ALL of God's word, or we believe NONE of God's word. God himself has said, "Luke 11:23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth."

Please, if anyone can SHOW ME SCRIPTURE, not mans ideas or comments on scripture, where it CLEARLY states that man has or was created with an "immortal" soul, show me. I want the TRUTH OF GOD'S WORD not man's traditions, tradition is what caused the Jews to stumble and become Lo Ammi for nearly two thousand years.

In Christian Love,

Clifford

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apilgrim2
Advanced Member
Member # 7182

posted

Thank you Keith!

You have gathered the Scriptures that make this Truth so clear. You have said exactly what Clifford and I have been trying to get those who believe man is, or has, an eternal soul, to see, but there are those who WILL NOT see. We pray for those who will allow only that which affirms what they already believe.

You have quite clearly illustrated the mortality of man, and the immortality of God. From this we can see that the PUTTING ON of immortality by the resurrected believer is WHEN THE LORD WILLS IT TO BE SO and not one moment sooner.

Indeed, we can deduce from Scripture that the believer's perception of time between his death in this body of flesh and resurrection in a body likened unto The LORD's body, will seem but a brief interval, no matter how long they sleep in Christ Jesus. It may be to the believer as though it never happened at all.

I imagine awakening to the Lord speaking my new name in my ears of perfect hearing, and opening my eyes of perfect vision, and rising in a body of perfect dimension and function.

"Rise, beloved, and behold: Life in perfection "

quote:
Originally posted by Keith:
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

When God united His breath, or spirit with man, man became a living soul. A living soul is composed of body and spirit.

05397 hmvn n@shamah nesh-aw-maw'

from 05395; n f; {See TWOT on 1433 @@ '1433a'}

AV-breath 17, blast 3, spirit 2, inspiration 1, souls 1; 24

1) breath, spirit
1a) breath (of God)
1b) breath (of man)
1c) every breathing thing
1d) spirit (of man)

When one dies, their spirit goes back to God who gave it, at which point, one is no longer a living soul. This is why humanity is not immortal, and must receive the same from God as a gift of salvation.

Eccl 12:5..….. because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: 6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

When the dust returns to the earth, and the spirit back to God who gave it, there is no longer a living soul. If the soul were immortal, then the scriptures would not speak of living, or dying souls. Of course a soul would be living if souls were immortal, and of course they would never be spoken of as dying if they were immortal either. So why do the scriptures apply both to the soul?

Ps 6:2 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; for I am weak: O LORD, heal me; for my bones are vexed. 3 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long? 4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. 5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

In the above, David seeks to have himself, that is his soul delivered from death, because in the grave there is no remembrance of God, and he cannot give God thanks from the grave. How is this possible if the soul is immortal? If the soul were alive and in heaven with God surely it would be praising Him. Or if it were in hell, surely it would be cursing Him.

Ps 7:1 O LORD my God, in thee do I put my trust: save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me: 2 Lest he tear my soul like a lion, rending it in pieces, while there is none to deliver. 3 O LORD my God, if I have done this; if there be iniquity in my hands; 4 If I have rewarded evil unto him that was at peace with me; (yea, I have delivered him that without cause is mine enemy:) 5 Let the enemy persecute my soul, and take it; yea, let him tread down my life upon the earth, and lay mine honour in the dust. Selah.

Again what sense do the above verses make if a soul is not a living person, rather than some floating entity that lives apart from the body? Can a soul be torn to pieces? Will it end one ones life does? Yes it will.

Ps 30:2 O LORD my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me. 3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

How can a soul go to the grave? If it is immortal and goes to heaven or hell at death it should not be spoken of as dying and going to the grave. If on the other hand, it is a living being, then it could be said that ones soul goes to the grave when they die, it is it’s end. When life ends, it ends.

Ps 33:18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy; 19 To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine. 20 Our soul waiteth for the LORD: he is our help and our shield. 21 For our heart shall rejoice in him, because we have trusted in his holy name. 22 Let thy mercy, O LORD, be upon us, according as we hope in thee.

If our souls must be delivered from death, then they are not immortal. They are like us, they are us, when we are alive. When we are raised from the dead and given everlasting life, we will again be living souls.

Ps 40:13 Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me: O LORD, make haste to help me. 14 Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

Who can destroy a soul if it is immortal? It is not. When life ends, it ends, because when one is alive, they are a living soul.

Ps 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish. 13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah. 14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. 15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

Again the soul being associated with life, being redeemed from the grave. If it were immortal, this would not be so.

Ps 56:12 Thy vows are upon me, O God: I will render praises unto thee. 13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

Again, when God delivers the soul from death, one can walk in the light of the living. Makes no sense if the soul is immortal.

Ps 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them. 50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence; 51 And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:

God spared not the Egyptians souls from death, but killed them by the plagues. Their souls died, that is, they died. Obviously their souls were not immortal.

Ps 86:1 Bow down thine ear, O LORD, hear me: for I am poor and needy. 2 Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee. 3 Be merciful unto me, O Lord: for I cry unto thee daily.

Who needs their soul to be preserved if it is immortal?

Ps 89:47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain? 48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

Again, why wold a soul go to the grave at death if it is immortal and goes to heaven or hell at death? It is because the body goes into the grave at death, it is a dead soul, it is not living, because the body and the breath or spirit from God have separated.

Ps 116:7 Return unto thy rest, O my soul; for the LORD hath dealt bountifully with thee. 8 For thou hast delivered my soul from death,[/b mine eyes from tears, and my feet from falling. 9 [b]I will walk before the LORD in the land of the living.

Because his soul was delivered from death, he will walk before the Lord in the land of the living, he is a living soul.

Ps 119:174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight. 175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me. 176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

Makes no sense if the soul is immortal.

Isa 38:16 O Lord, by these things men live, and in all these things is the life of my spirit: so wilt thou recover me, and make me to live. 17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. 18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. 19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.

Because he was delivered from death, his soul was delivered from the pit of corruption, that is, the grave. The living, they are the ones who praise God. The dead cannot, because they are not living souls. All such nonsense if the soul is immortal.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

A prophecy concerning Christ. How can a soul be an offering? A sacrifice must die. If the soul is immortal, then it cannot be a sacrifice. Yet Christ poured out His soul unto death for our sins. He died the death we deserved, and when He did, He was no longer a living soul.

Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Is God a liar? If a soul is immortal it cannot die. God says the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

Again, the soul is identified with the person. If the person lives, the soul lives. If the person dies, the soul dies. A soul is a living person with a body combined with the breath, or spirit from God.

Matt 10: 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God will destroy both body and soul in hell. The soul is not immortal.

Matt 16: 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

How can one lose their soul, if their soul is immortal? Where could it go to get away from them.

Acts 2: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Christ was raised before His body saw corruption. Thus His soul was not left in hell, or the grave. He once again walked in the light of the living, that is, He became a living soul. This is our salvation. Our souls will not be left in the prison house of death, but we will once again be raised and receive the breath, or spirit of God in our spiritual bodies, and then we shall ever be with the Lord.

Acts 3: 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Every soul that will not hear and accept Christ, will be destroyed.

1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

No mistake about when it is that we receive immortality. It is at the last trump, when the dead are raised incorruptible, and immortal. None of the above makes sense if the soul is immortal.

Heb 10:38-39 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The soul needs saving, it is not immortal.

James 5:19-20 19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

The soul needs to be saved from death, it is not immortal.

Rev 16: 3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Souls can die. The souls of humans and animals can die. This is because a soul is a living being, when they die they are no longer a soul, or a dead one. This could not be possible if a soul were immortal.

Y. b. in C. Keith

--------------------
"Relativity applies to physics, NOT ethics." - A. Einstein

Posts: 49 | From: Sacramento California | Registered: May 2008 | IP: Logged |

Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801

posted

quote:
Billy sed
quote:
It might be argued, "Well, how can God be present in Hell if He cannot be in the presence of sin."

This is a falacitic statement, though it is one that I've asked myself. If we claim God's presence on this earth, and the earth is full of sin and sinners, it is not a far stretch to say that God is also actively present in hell. Though, I would say that, just as our sin on earth keeps us from being able to recognize the presence of God in our lives, so the inhabitants of hell will not be able to experience it either. Also, it could be said that, though God is there, because He is everywhere, His grace is not. God's grace is the only thing holding back His wrath, and so the absence of His grace means the presence of His wrath. That is what make hell so tormenting.

Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Nevertheless, I have slowly come to the conclusion over the years that the unquinchable fires of hell, are the unsatible lusts that we experienced here on earth??? Since only Jesus saitisfies, people will not be satisfied for eternity where they did not accept Christ as savior.

Luk 16:9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon [wealth] of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.

This is why the worst thing that one can do is be religious without surrender to Christ, because he will not have anything to keep him company except the reminders of what it means to serve Christ.

Sorry! I may be a little off topic! [Eek!]

Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007 | IP: Logged |

Keith
unregistered

posted

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

When God united His breath, or spirit with man, man became a living soul. A living soul is composed of body and spirit.

05397 hmvn n@shamah nesh-aw-maw'

from 05395; n f; {See TWOT on 1433 @@ '1433a'}

AV-breath 17, blast 3, spirit 2, inspiration 1, souls 1; 24

1) breath, spirit
1a) breath (of God)
1b) breath (of man)
1c) every breathing thing
1d) spirit (of man)

When one dies, their spirit goes back to God who gave it, at which point, one is no longer a living soul. This is why humanity is not immortal, and must receive the same from God as a gift of salvation.

Eccl 12:5..….. because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: 6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

When the dust returns to the earth, and the spirit back to God who gave it, there is no longer a living soul. If the soul were immortal, then the scriptures would not speak of living, or dying souls. Of course a soul would be living if souls were immortal, and of course they would never be spoken of as dying if they were immortal either. So why do the scriptures apply both to the soul?

Ps 6:2 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; for I am weak: O LORD, heal me; for my bones are vexed. 3 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long? 4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. 5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

In the above, David seeks to have himself, that is his soul delivered from death, because in the grave there is no remembrance of God, and he cannot give God thanks from the grave. How is this possible if the soul is immortal? If the soul were alive and in heaven with God surely it would be praising Him. Or if it were in hell, surely it would be cursing Him.

Ps 7:1 O LORD my God, in thee do I put my trust: save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me: 2 Lest he tear my soul like a lion, rending it in pieces, while there is none to deliver. 3 O LORD my God, if I have done this; if there be iniquity in my hands; 4 If I have rewarded evil unto him that was at peace with me; (yea, I have delivered him that without cause is mine enemy:) 5 Let the enemy persecute my soul, and take it; yea, let him tread down my life upon the earth, and lay mine honour in the dust. Selah.

Again what sense do the above verses make if a soul is not a living person, rather than some floating entity that lives apart from the body? Can a soul be torn to pieces? Will it end one ones life does? Yes it will.

Ps 30:2 O LORD my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me. 3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

How can a soul go to the grave? If it is immortal and goes to heaven or hell at death it should not be spoken of as dying and going to the grave. If on the other hand, it is a living being, then it could be said that ones soul goes to the grave when they die, it is it’s end. When life ends, it ends.

Ps 33:18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy; 19 To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine. 20 Our soul waiteth for the LORD: he is our help and our shield. 21 For our heart shall rejoice in him, because we have trusted in his holy name. 22 Let thy mercy, O LORD, be upon us, according as we hope in thee.

If our souls must be delivered from death, then they are not immortal. They are like us, they are us, when we are alive. When we are raised from the dead and given everlasting life, we will again be living souls.

Ps 40:13 Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me: O LORD, make haste to help me. 14 Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

Who can destroy a soul if it is immortal? It is not. When life ends, it ends, because when one is alive, they are a living soul.

Ps 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish. 13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah. 14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. 15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

Again the soul being associated with life, being redeemed from the grave. If it were immortal, this would not be so.

Ps 56:12 Thy vows are upon me, O God: I will render praises unto thee. 13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

Again, when God delivers the soul from death, one can walk in the light of the living. Makes no sense if the soul is immortal.

Ps 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them. 50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence; 51 And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:

God spared not the Egyptians souls from death, but killed them by the plagues. Their souls died, that is, they died. Obviously their souls were not immortal.

Ps 86:1 Bow down thine ear, O LORD, hear me: for I am poor and needy. 2 Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee. 3 Be merciful unto me, O Lord: for I cry unto thee daily.

Who needs their soul to be preserved if it is immortal?

Ps 89:47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain? 48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

Again, why wold a soul go to the grave at death if it is immortal and goes to heaven or hell at death? It is because the body goes into the grave at death, it is a dead soul, it is not living, because the body and the breath or spirit from God have separated.

Ps 116:7 Return unto thy rest, O my soul; for the LORD hath dealt bountifully with thee. 8 For thou hast delivered my soul from death,[/b mine eyes from tears, and my feet from falling. 9 [b]I will walk before the LORD in the land of the living.

Because his soul was delivered from death, he will walk before the Lord in the land of the living, he is a living soul.

Ps 119:174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight. 175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me. 176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

Makes no sense if the soul is immortal.

Isa 38:16 O Lord, by these things men live, and in all these things is the life of my spirit: so wilt thou recover me, and make me to live. 17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. 18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. 19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.

Because he was delivered from death, his soul was delivered from the pit of corruption, that is, the grave. The living, they are the ones who praise God. The dead cannot, because they are not living souls. All such nonsense if the soul is immortal.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

A prophecy concerning Christ. How can a soul be an offering? A sacrifice must die. If the soul is immortal, then it cannot be a sacrifice. Yet Christ poured out His soul unto death for our sins. He died the death we deserved, and when He did, He was no longer a living soul.

Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Is God a liar? If a soul is immortal it cannot die. God says the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

Again, the soul is identified with the person. If the person lives, the soul lives. If the person dies, the soul dies. A soul is a living person with a body combined with the breath, or spirit from God.

Matt 10: 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God will destroy both body and soul in hell. The soul is not immortal.

Matt 16: 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

How can one lose their soul, if their soul is immortal? Where could it go to get away from them.

Acts 2: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Christ was raised before His body saw corruption. Thus His soul was not left in hell, or the grave. He once again walked in the light of the living, that is, He became a living soul. This is our salvation. Our souls will not be left in the prison house of death, but we will once again be raised and receive the breath, or spirit of God in our spiritual bodies, and then we shall ever be with the Lord.

Acts 3: 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Every soul that will not hear and accept Christ, will be destroyed.

1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

No mistake about when it is that we receive immortality. It is at the last trump, when the dead are raised incorruptible, and immortal. None of the above makes sense if the soul is immortal.

Heb 10:38-39 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The soul needs saving, it is not immortal.

James 5:19-20 19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

The soul needs to be saved from death, it is not immortal.

Rev 16: 3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Souls can die. The souls of humans and animals can die. This is because a soul is a living being, when they die they are no longer a soul, or a dead one. This could not be possible if a soul were immortal.

Y. b. in C. Keith

IP: Logged |

Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

posted

Paul could say, “For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.... I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far” (Phil. 1:21, 23), since “away from the body” will mean “at home with the Lord” (2 Cor. 5:8).

At death the souls of believers (i.e., the believers themselves, as ongoing persons) are made perfect in holiness and enter into the worshiping life of heaven (Heb. 12:22-24). In other words, they are glorified.

Some, not believing this, posit a purgatorial discipline after death that is really a further stage of sanctification, progressively purifying the heart and refining the character in preparation for the vision of God. But this belief is neither scriptural nor rational, for if at Christ’s coming saints alive on earth will be perfected morally and spiritually in the moment of their bodily transformation (1 Cor. 15:51-54), it is only natural to suppose that the same is done for each believer in the moment of death, when the mortal body is left behind.

Others posit unconsciousness (soul sleep) between death and resurrection, but Scripture speaks of conscious relationship, involvements, and enjoyments (Luke 16:22; 23:43; Phil. 1:23; 2 Cor. 5:8; Rev. 6:9-11; 14:13).

Death is decisive for destiny. After death there is no possibility of salvation for the lost (Luke 16:26)—from then on both the godly and the ungodly reap what they sowed in this life (Gal. 6:7-8).

Death is gain for believers (Phil. 1:21) because after death they are closer to Christ. But disembodiment, as such, is not gain; bodies are for expression and experience, and to be without a body is to be limited, indeed impoverished. This is why Paul wants to be “clothed” with his resurrection body (i.e., re-embodied) rather than be “unclothed” (i.e., disembodied, 2 Cor. 5:1-4). To be resurrected for the life of heaven is the true Christian hope.

As life in the “intermediate” or “interim” state between death and resurrection is better than the life in this world that preceded it, so the life of resurrection will be better still. It will, in fact, be best. And this is what God has in store for all his children (2 Cor. 5:4-5; Phil. 3:20-21). Hallelujah!

(Concise Theology)

Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007 | IP: Logged |

Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

posted

Keith said:

quote:
They believe that the God who is love, will torture the unsaved throughout the endless ages of eternity. Out of one side of their mouths they say that God loved us so much that He died for us, and out of the other they say, now worship Him or He will torture you throughout the endless ages of eternity. What a sick and twisted picture of love they paint. Accusing God of committing a worse atrocity than the Devil could ever even be capable of committing. How can God tell us to love our enemies as He did here on earth through His Son, when He intends to torture His enemies throughout the endless ages of eternity?
How can one think that God is love, while believing that He will do this? What does one who believes such a thing, think love really is?

Scripture envisages hell as unending (Jude 13; Rev. 20:10). Speculations about a “second chance” after death, or personal annihilation of the ungodly at some stage, have no biblical warrant.

Scripture sees hell as self-chosen ; those in hell will realize that they sentenced themselves to it by loving darkness rather than light, choosing not to have their Creator as their Lord, preferring self-indulgent sin to self-denying righteousness, and (if they encountered the gospel) rejecting Jesus rather than coming to him (John 3:18-21; Rom. 1:18, 24, 26, 28, 32; 2:8; 2 Thess. 2:9-11). General revelation confronts all mankind with this issue, and from this standpoint hell appears as God’s gesture of respect for human choice. All receive what they actually chose, either to be with God forever, worshiping him, or without God forever, worshiping themselves. Those who are in hell will know not only that for their doings they deserve it but also that in their hearts they chose it.

The purpose of Bible teaching about hell is to make us appreciate, thankfully embrace, and rationally prefer the grace of Christ that saves us from it (Matt. 5:29-30; 13:48-50). It is really a mercy to mankind that God in Scripture is so explicit about hell. We cannot now say that we have not been warned.

(Concise Theology)

The really cruel thing is to try to teach people that there is no hell. They can live a life of sin, then simply cease to exist.

What is “the lie” that has ruled civilization since the fall of man? It’s the belief that men and women can be their own god and live for the creation and not the Creator and not suffer any consequences. Believing this, they refuse to submit to God’s truth but prefer to believe Satan’s lies and follow his diabolical plan for their destruction. They don’t realize that Satan is their master (Eph. 2:1-3) and the lake of fire is their destiny (Matt. 7:13-23; Rev. 20:10-15).

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Keith
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posted

I will of course be praying for you Zeena.

1Thes 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Isa 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

The word of God is the final authority concerning all things. There are many who would use it to lord over you. God Himself though says,- “Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.” (Isa 1:18).

God is love, His mercy endureth forever (Ps 136). It is not possible for God to have mercy that endureth forever, and also for God to have vengeance that endureth forever through the burning of the wicked throughout the endless ages of eternity.

Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Y. b. in C. Keith

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Zeena
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Excellent post Keith, I'ma seek the Lord for wisdom.

I recieved a vision a while ago of people perishing [being consummed, and I don't believe they were no more] before my eyes [but I did not see the end of the matter], and was rebuked by a fellow Saint [highly respected by me, for revealing the Life of Christ] when I conveyed what I saw..

Since then, I suppose I've 'conformed' to the doctrine of eternal torment.

I know ya'll, in both camps, will be praying for me, and it's much appreciated, thanks. [Smile]

Be careful with CARM Billy, reformed doctrine leaves much to be desired imo..

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Billy
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http://www.carm.org/uni/elect.htm

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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.

- The Apostle Paul

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Billy
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http://www.tektonics.org/af/annix.html

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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.

- The Apostle Paul

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Keith
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posted

Universalism and eternal torment are just opposite ends of two extremes. They both promote the immortality of the soul. They were both created by the Devil to malign the character of God. Universalism leaves people with no choice. They will all be saved and changed into the image of God, whether they choose to or not. This contradicts God’s conclusive statement in Genesis at creation. It also perpetuates the Devil’s first lie to humanity.

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

At least the doctrine of eternal torment leaves the individual with a choice in the matter. I certainly will not say though, that it is the better of the two. A lie, is a lie, and the Devil is the father of all lies, including the first one ever told to humanity.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The doctrine of eternal torment makes God out to be the perpetuator of sin, pain, and suffering. All things which God Himself has conclusively stated, will come to an end.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Sin, and crying, and pain, and suffering, cannot pass away while there are sinners burning in an eternal hell.

Again, it is this doctrine of the immortality of the soul which comes to Christianity through the Church of Rome, which causes so much confusion, and biblical contradiction. Those who promote it say that the bible doesn’t really mean that the soul that sinneth will die when it says so, (Eze. 18:4&20).

They say it doesn’t really mean that the wicked will perish when it says so, (Ps 37:20, Ps 68:1-3 , Ps 73:27 , Ps 112:10, Isa 41:11-12, John 3:14-18, John 10:28 , 1 Cor 1:17-18 , II Th 2:10-12, 2 Pet 2:12, 2 Pet 3:9-12 , Jude 1:7).

They say that it doesn’t mean that the dead are in a state of sleep when it says so. Who could be referred to as sleeping, when they were in heaven in the literal presence of God and His angels? What are they so bored that they can’t stay awake in heaven? Who could be referred to as sleeping, if they were being burned in fire in a place called hell? (Deut 31:16, 2 Sam 7:12, IKing 1:21, Job 7:21, Job 14:10-12, Ps 13:3, Jer 51:39, Jer 51:57, IKing 1:21, IKing 2:10, IKing 11:43, IKing 14:20, IKing 14:31, IKing 15:8, Ps 13:3, Dan 12:2, Matt 9:24, Mark 5:39, John 11:11-14, Acts 7:60, 1 Cor 15:51-52, 1Thes 4:13-16, 2 Pet 3:4, Matt 27:52-53, Acts 7:59-60 ).

They say it doesn’t mean the dead have no thoughts when it says so, (Eccl 9:5-6, Eccl 9:10, Ps 146:3-4, Ps 115:17).

They say that the wicked who do not have the Son, can still have some form of life, or existence apart from the same, when the scriptures say they cannot, (John 3:14-17, I Jn 5:11-12 , Jn 3:36, Jn 6:53&54).

They say the soul is immortal, when the scriptures say that God alone has immortality, (1 Tim 6:15-16).

They say the soul is immortal, when the scriptures say when, where, and by whom we will receive immortality, (1 Cor 15:51-54).

The bible is filled with scriptures from one end to the other that contradict what they believe, yet they care not. They have chosen to believe that which makes the bible contradict itself. They have chosen to cling tenaciously to that which was conceived within the Church of Rome, who is verily BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. What are her abominations, but her false teachings and doctrines which malign the character of God.

They believe that the God who is love, will torture the unsaved throughout the endless ages of eternity. Out of one side of their mouths they say that God loved us so much that He died for us, and out of the other they say, now worship Him or He will torture you throughout the endless ages of eternity. What a sick and twisted picture of love they paint. Accusing God of committing a worse atrocity than the Devil could ever even be capable of committing. How can God tell us to love our enemies as He did here on earth through His Son, when He intends to torture His enemies throughout the endless ages of eternity?
How can one think that God is love, while believing that He will do this? What does one who believes such a thing, think love really is?

I Jn 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

I Jn 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Please come out of Babylon. Separate yourselves from her false and abominable teachings and doctrines, for why will you receive of her plagues. The Church of Rome and her adherents are always communicating with the dead. They pray to Mary and the dead saints routinely. The Popes have dedicated this world to Mary, and thus to the dead. They even get answers to their prayers from the same, and are communicated to by the same. I tell you the truth, it is not the dead that they are communicating with, but the Devil himself, and his angels.

This is the Church that would have you also pray to the dead. It is being led by the Devil disguised as the dead. This is the church that will exalt the day of the sun above the day of God’s own choosing by law when it is able. It looks to you, for your cooperation. Will you continue to support BABYLON THE GREAT through these two major deceptions, the immortality of the soul, and Sunday sacredness, or will you come out of BABYLON? Flee from her, and her false doctrines. You must separate from Babylon if you will be in the new heaven and earth, for she is the leader of this world in rebellion against God and His authority. Do you not understand that it is only those who have already chosen to believe a lie over the truth, that God will send strong delusion upon. All those who have not a love for the truth, will be deceived.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

II Th 2: 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I do not speak these things by way of condemnation, for Christ came not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. We must separate ourselves from Babylon if we are to be saved from her plagues, which will come upon the entire world in rebellion against God through her leadership.

Y. b. in C. Keith

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Zeena
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Based upon what Keith wrote, this Scripture was served up to my mind.

Isaiah 10:17-19
So the Light of Israel will be for a fire, And his Holy One for a flame; It will burn and devour His thorns and his briers in one day. And it will consume the glory of his forest and of his fruitful field, Both soul and body; And they will be as when a sick man wastes away. Then the rest of the trees of his forest Will be so few in number That a child may write them.

I've always internalised that Scripture..

I suppose it could be externalised, and is warranted to be both, except for this one fact.. It's HIS forest He's talking about.. HIS fruitful feild..

John 15:2
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Matthew 3:12
His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire.

Every single one of these Scripture verses are speaking of born again believers.

Acts 2:3
They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them.

Isaiah 5:25
Therefore the LORD's anger burns against his people; his hand is raised and he strikes them down. The mountains shake, and the dead bodies are like refuse in the streets. Yet for all this, his anger is not turned away, his hand is still upraised.

1 Corinthians 11:30
That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Zeena
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posted

I rather appreciated Keith's contribution.
However, ChosenOne has also been saying aion is an age, in which [she?] justifies universialism.

It is oh so obvious Keith is nowhere near that camp, however, if aion is indeed an 'age', might it lead to that same [or even diametrically opposed] doctrine?

Balance is needed here!

We pray you Father, by the Presence of your Holy Spirit within us to both reveal to and illume our minds to recieve your Truth. Amen.

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Billy
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posted

Zeena, the Christian Soldier! Whip that sword out and show us what you can do! Honestly, I was getting a little worn down by doing all this research, plus my own personal studies. Glad you could step in and fill the gap. That goes for you too, Carol. You're doing great.

In Christ,
Billy.

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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.

- The Apostle Paul

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Zeena
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posted

quote:
Originally posted by Keith:
Where does the bible say that the Devil is spirit?

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

But man is a tripartite being, spirit, soul and body..

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

[not in speaking of you, I believe] However, it's quite interesting that the Lord denotes the identity of these men as BEING of the devil.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Question here please?
How can thier worm dieth not, and the fire not be quenched if the worm has no food and the fire has nothing to consume?

Isaiah 10:17-19
So the Light of Israel will be for a fire, And his Holy One for a flame; It will burn and devour His thorns and his briers in one day. And it will consume the glory of his forest and of his fruitful field, Both soul and body; And they will be as when a sick man wastes away. Then the rest of the trees of his forest Will be so few in number That a child may write them.

So, the worm will die, and the fire will be quenched?

Luke 12:49
I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Billy
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Keith
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posted

quote:
So then, these verses pertain to the soul only?

Mark 9:44
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mark 9:46
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mark 9:48
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Isaiah 66:24
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

And what about that devil, who is spirit?

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Death is cast into the Lake of Fire after that time, this takes place before or after persons are annihilated?

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

None of those verses pertain to the soul, they pertain to worms.

Where does the bible say that the Devil is spirit?

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Annihalation takes place in the lake of fire, which is the second and final death. Even death itself is cast into this lake, and will die, for no one afterward will ever die again.

The following definitions are from the Greek-English Lexicon.

ETERNAL-aionios-- lasting for an age. ( Age- as a period of individual existence. 1. That part of
the duration of a being or a thing which is between its beginning and any given time. ), perpetual,eternal, holding an office or title for life,perpetual.

I can no longer read the last word of three of the lines of the next definition, so I guess I will just have to leave them out.

EVER, as in forever-aion--period of existence, I. lifetime, life____ II. long space of time, an age,perpetual, all ones life long, for ever,_____ eternity, 2. space of time clearly defined and marked out,epoch,____this present world.

As is obvious from the above definitions, the words eternal, and forever, in the new testament, do not necessarily always mean what our English words denote. This means that it is possible, that when speaking of the punishment of the wicked, the words eternal, and forever, may really mean something more like, until the duration of, or, all their life long.

Considering this, and the fact that
there are many scriptures that conclusively state that sin and sinners will come to an end, I am convicted that these scriptures are correct. The only other option is to believe that the scriptures contradict themselves.

Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Y. b. in C. Keith

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Zeena
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posted

quote:
Originally posted by Billy:
I will continue to cut and paste the above reply until you stop avoiding me.

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Billy
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I will continue to cut and paste the above reply until you stop avoiding me.

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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.

- The Apostle Paul

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Billy
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apilgrim2
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posted

AMEN Brother!! [Cross]

-apilgrim2

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"Relativity applies to physics, NOT ethics." - A. Einstein

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Clifford
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posted

Dear Billy:

All I have ever asked you or anyone else posting in this thread to do is give me scripture where it says man has or was created with an immortal soul. All I have ever found in the word of God is what Gen 2:7 says, that man was formed from the dust of the ground, i.e., the body of flesh, and the breath of life. No one has yet given me scripture that says such a thing.

Paul gives two Chapters in two different books that only reference the "putting on" of "immortality" and "incorruption", and of a naked state which he did not want for himself, that was a time between death and resurrection, which he himself describes as "sleep". Either we believe what God has given to us, or we believe what man "says" God has given to us.

I only believe the scripture. No where does Paul ever use the word "annihilation", he does however use the word perish. And if God says "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not PERISH but have everlasting life", and "He that hath the Son hath life, and he that hath not the Son hath not life", then that is what God means. He does not say, that he that hath not the Son of God goes to hell, to live on forever and ever, under Satan's control, which implies also that Satan has immortality, or he could not be directing an everlasting hell, which is a monstrous blasphemy to me, to imply that Satan has immortality like Christ!!

Do you see where this lie of Satan leads? If "all" men have an "immortal" soul and the believers go immediately to heaven and don't need resurrection, then that eliminates the need for Christ who said he "is" the resurrection. And, if the unbelievers go to an "everlasting" place of torment, run by Satan, then Satan too must be everlasting. This is something I cannot accept, especially when the word of God says in I Tim. 6:16 that Christ "alone" has immortality. I can't understand how YOU can allow for the immortality of unbelievers and the immortality of Satan? Scripture says clearly and emphatically that those without Christ "have not life", period.

As I said before, there is a fundamental problem in that you believe that scripture says that the body and the soul are two separate things, despite Gen. 2:7 which says that the body and the breath of life equal the living soul (no mention of immortality here), and you have not yet given me any scripture verse that says such a thing. I need scripture Billy, I need to see God's word, not mans interpretation of it. Where in the scriptures do you find a verse that says that man has or was created with an immortal soul? Please show me so that I can learn this truth. If it is not to be found in the word of God, then it can't be Gods word. But if it is, please give me the Chapter and verse where this is stated. I have given you many verses where it says that immortality is a thing to be "put on" at resurrection. That Christ "only" has immortality, that man was created from dust and breath of life, that man is a living soul (not an immortal one), but you have not yet shown me where it says he was created immortal or has an immortal soul. Only Christ can give immortality, this is the teaching of scripture. Paul was not looking for death, but resurrection. He did not say "absent from the body is to be present with the Lord", what he did say was that while "he was in his body he was absent from his Lord", that is quite a different thing. He fully expected to be with his Lord and very much desired to be with his Lord, but only in the way that scripture teaches and that is by being resurrected by his Lord, at his coming, or as Christ repeats 4 times in the book of John, "at the Last Day".

I don't know what I can do to enhance the word of God and I know I can't. I can only believe his word as given through divinely inspired men.

Job 32:8 "But [there is] a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding"

2 Tim. 3:16 "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

2 Pet. 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost."

Scripture gives ample proof that it is divinely inspired, so we have to believe that it comes from God, and if God says I Tim. 6:16 "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen."; then he means that "only" Christ, now dwelling in the light has "immortality", that is all he says in this verse. So do we believe that "only" Christ has "immortality"? I do. That is what this verse says. I do not add anything to it or subtract, and where in scripture do you find God asking man to provide a critique of his word or an analysis or a treatise? He only asks us to believe his word.

Final quote: 2 Th. 2:13 "For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received [it] not [as] the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that [believe]."

In Christian Love,

Clifford

Posts: 11 | From: Sacramento, CA USA | Registered: Jul 2008 | IP: Logged |

apilgrim2
Advanced Member
Member # 7182

posted

The Doctrine of the Immortal Soul

Another obvious crack in Israel's armour, where heresies of spirit-beings or ghosts crept into our Christian faith, was at the point where our ancestors began to accept the pagan doctrine of the "immortal soul." That is the doctrine which teaches that "a soul" is one-third of the component parts of a man, and that it is immortal: an entity which cannot die. God's people fell for this false teaching starting in the book of Genesis, chapter 3 Where the first false prophet bamboozled Eve by telling her:

'You shall not surely die. " Genesis 3:4
What did this primal guru mean by "ye shall not surely die?" Well, he meant "THE REAL YOU cannot die; just your flesh (the unneeded part of you) dies. The real YOU (your soul) cannot die. YOU are immortal. Only the flesh part of you dies" (not actually YOU). This has been the first and foremost lie foisted upon idolatrous mankind.

Churches accepted and then taught this pagan doctrine. It came largely through the Catholic Church after the traditions of the Pharisees. It was largely through this channel that paganism got its foothold in Christendom.

The doctrine of the immortal soul was only one of the many false doctrines which the Catholics brought in. And in the process, the concept of "soul" and "spirit" got confused. According to them, a man's "soul" was his "spirit."

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THE PRE-EXISTENCE DOCTRINE
When you think in terms of an immortal spirit or an eternal life, you start to realize that eternity in this sense goes BACKWARD as well as FORWARD; it goes into the past as well as into the future. Therefore, if a soul or spirit is eternal then it had to exist before it took over a body, and it must also continue after that body dies. So where were they before they became fleshly bodies? The false teaching is, that a man is not what he appears to be. Supposedly he is a spirit-being with this external flesh attached just to give him form. According to them, the real person is not the body which is temporal, but the spirit which Is eternal. This adds up to "pre-existence." This doctrine is taught by several pseudo-Christian groups-like the Mormons-who claim that they were Immortal spirits some place up in heaven before they came down to earth and slipped into a body of flesh.

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THE REINCARNATION DOCTRINE
One of the natural results of the false doctrine of pre-existence is that It naturally leads to a belief In reincarnation. Our fleshly body cannot live very long, so If you are really an Immortal spirit you have to go somewhere else when the body dim Usually, they claim that we go from body to body. You cannot remain forever In one body, so you must "transmigrate" (reincarnate). "Incarnation" Is a pagan concept of a spirit being possessing a flesh body. Truthfully, I do not believe It is even a viable term, but It Is a popular concept nonetheless. The doctrine of incarnation Is that a spirit can "incarnate" or possess, a flesh body. "Reincarnation," then, is simply a repeat of that process where a spirit being is said to possess one body until that body dies and then move on to another body until it dies-and on and on it goes. First John, chapter 4 addresses this problem directly:

'Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits (test the spirits), whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit (not every ghost but every motive) that confesseth that Jesus Christ Is cow In the flesh is of God. And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is the spirit of antichrist...' 1 J n 4:1-3
Gnostics held, according to the pre-existence doctrine, that Jesus was actually a spirit and not flesh. That, by definition, made them "antichrists." In Greek, "ANTI-CHRIST" means "IN PLACE OF CHRIST" (ANTE = in place of). The gnostic teaching of reincarnation described another Christ. This other Christ was the one whom the Gnostics claimed was not flesh. This imaginary non flesh christ was an "ante-Christ" - a christ who was put % place of" the true Christ. John was warning Christians against accepting a counterfeit ante-Christ.

This heresy is known as Gnosticism and it has serious implications concerning Jesus. "Gnostic" is a Greek word that means "to know." Therefore, a "Gnostic" is "one who knows." What does he claim to know? Simply this: that we are each immortal and cannot die. Therefore, the immortality of the soul was their salvation - omitting their need for Christ.

Now, if you think you have an immortal soul, then you must think that Jesus did too. If Jesus had an immortal soul, guess what? OUR SAVIOUR NEVER DIED FOR US! (Remember you cannot die if you are immortal). If you embrace the teachings of Gnosticism, you do not need Christ to die for you; all you need is someone to tell you that you are eternal -so you can "know" it. Of course, Gnostics do not believe Christ really died. They believe that Christ was not flesh because flesh is evil. Therefore, He was a spirit in a mere "envelope of flesh," and on the cross only the flesh died. Jesus, himself (the spirit), went right on living. In other words, Gnostics claim that Jesus did not die. Therefore, if He did not die He could not have been resurrected. That is Gnosticism. . Unfortunately, this very serious doctrinal error is believed by many in Christendom today.

This is heavy doctrine. These issues form the foundation upon which is built everything else that we believe. They are the foundation upon which we can build a strong, correct understanding of God's Word. Otherwise we will be building on sand, and everything will wash away in the first storm. In logic we are told to always check the premise, because if the premise is wrong then everything else no matter how logical it may sound will be wrong. Therefore, in the following section, entitled Body Soul and Spirit," we will break this subject down even further to make sure our premise (or foundation) is correct.

I realize that some of you are hearing this for the first time, and it may sound strange. But this subject is the kind of study YOU must prove for yourself. Scripture says to:

`Prove all things, hold fast that which is good.' 1 Thessalonians 5:21

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BODY, SOUL AND SPIRIT
'And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man BECAME a living soul. ` Gen 2:7
Let us examine the picture this presents. God formed a body out of the dust of the ground. At this point it is not a person; it is simply a body-or more accurately, a corpse. Then God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life:" or in other words, moving air. As I mentioned earlier, the word "spirit" literally means air in motion. Breath is air in motion, and thus, spirit. Spirit is added to the body. Therefore, a body (corpse), plus spirit (breath), equals a LIVING SOUL.

Conversely, at death you have a body or a corpse again with no life in it. It is now a dead soul. Thus, "a living soul" is a body with a spirit. This is according to the Old Testament Hebrew language.

The Greek language In the New Testament has a slightly different connotation. The Greek word for "soul" is "psuche" (psoo-khay). In Greek thought, the word "psuche" actually meant the whole essence of a person. In other words the "soul" is the result of all the components together that make a person what he Is. However, in the New Testament, when it quotes from or refers back to the Old Testament, in these places we understand "soul" according to the Hebrew meaning.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Sharing and caring . . . . apilgrim2

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"Relativity applies to physics, NOT ethics." - A. Einstein

Posts: 49 | From: Sacramento California | Registered: May 2008 | IP: Logged |

Zeena
Advanced Member
Member # 7223

posted

So then, these verses pertain to the soul only?

Mark 9:44
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mark 9:46
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mark 9:48
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Isaiah 66:24
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

And what about that devil, who is spirit?

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Death is cast into the Lake of Fire after that time, this takes place before or after persons are annihilated?

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008 | IP: Logged |

Keith
unregistered

posted

Ps 37:20 20But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Ps 68:1-3 1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.

Ps 73:27 27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.

Ps 112:10 10 The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.

Isa 41:11-12 11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.
12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.

1 Cor 1:17-18 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

II Th 2:10-12 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Pet 2:12 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Pet 3:9-12 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Jude 1:7 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

In the above verse we are given an example of the effects of eternal fire. Sodom and Gomorrha are no more. They were completely destroyed by eternal fire, and have quite surely perished. If they were still burning today, then some might be able to argue that eternal fire meant being burned for eternity. Since they no longer exist, it is obvious that the meaning of eternal fire, is the complete annihilation of the thing suffering its effects.

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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Zeena:
Ok then ya'll, here's a REALLY good question;

How will the dead [unbelievers] be raised so that they can be judged?

AND, how will they suffer for eternity in both the body and the soul if thier bodies and souls undergo decay again?

OR are they annihilated upon entering the burning flames of hell?

Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

So sad...so unnecessary [Frown]

Unsaved people who do not possess eternal life possess a mortal body that will never be immortal. Their soul and spirit will go on existing forever but their body, raised for judgment, will suffer “the second death” at the sinner’s judgment of the white throne (Revelation 20:14). This is not annihilation. This is eternal conscious existence in "separation" from God, and thus torment and what is called “fire which burns with brimstone.” Apparently the term “second death” implies the dissolution or corruption of the resurrected body of the unsaved whose personality does not possess immortality.

Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007 | IP: Logged |

Zeena
Advanced Member
Member # 7223

posted

Ok then ya'll, here's a REALLY good question;

How will the dead [unbelievers] be raised so that they can be judged?

AND, how will they suffer for eternity in both the body and the soul if thier bodies and souls undergo decay again?

OR are they annihilated upon entering the burning flames of hell?

Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008 | IP: Logged |

Billy
Advanced Member
Member # 7193

posted

Clifford,

I must point out that, yet again, you don't answer my questions. I have been very gracious by answering yours, but you flat refuse to answer mine. How many times will I have to exhort you to do so? One. This is it. I will indulge you no further. I will sit back and wait for you to answer all of my questions before I will reply to you again. If you continue to refuse, I will dust my feet off and be done with you. I refuse to waste my time writing lengthy posts and answering the same questions over and over again, while you refuse to answer mine. Apparently, you are more comfortable being on the offensive, because you never defend yourself, but avoid the issues that I raise. I love you, brother, but I could be spending my time doing other things for the Lord. Instead you would have me waste my time by writing at length about a subject that is paramount in my theology, and you don't even feel the need to show enough respect for my posts to answer them. Regardless of whether or not I come across as respectful with my answers, at least I respect you enough to answer. If you don't stop disregarding my posts, I will be done with you.

In Christ,
Billy.

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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.

- The Apostle Paul

Posts: 217 | From: overseas | Registered: Jun 2008 | IP: Logged |

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