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Fourthly, we don't know much about Jesus' friend, so it is not a far stretch to assume that he could have been a poor beggar.

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John 11:1 - 3 (NLT)
1 A man named Lazarus was sick. He lived in Bethany with his sisters, Mary and Martha. 2 This is the Mary who later poured the expensive perfume on the Lord’s feet and wiped them with her hair. Her brother, Lazarus, was sick. 3 So the two sisters sent a message to Jesus telling him, “Lord, your dear friend is very sick.”
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
HELL
THE WICKED WILL BE BANISHED INTO ENDLESS MISERY

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

REVELATION 20:14-15

The sentimental secularism of modern Western culture, with its exalted optimism about human nature, its shrunken idea of God, and its skepticism as to whether personal morality really matters—in other words, its decay of conscience—makes it hard for Christians to take the reality of hell seriously. The revelation of hell in Scripture assumes a depth of insight into divine holiness and human and demonic sinfulness that most of us do not have. However, the doctrine of hell appears in the New Testament as a Christian essential , and we are called to try to understand it as Jesus and his apostles did.

The New Testament views hell (Gehenna, as Jesus calls it, the place of incineration, Matt. 5:22; 18:9) as the final abode of those consigned to eternal punishment at the Last Judgment (Matt. 25:41-46; Rev. 20:11-15). It is thought of as a place of fire and darkness (Jude 7, 13), of weeping and grinding of teeth (Matt. 8:12; 13:42, 50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30), of destruction (2 Thess. 1:7-9; 2 Pet. 3:7; 1 Thess. 5:3), and of torment (Rev. 20:10; Luke 16:23)—in other words, of total distress and misery. If, as it seems, these terms are symbolic rather than literal (fire and darkness would be mutually exclusive in literal terms), we may be sure that the reality, which is beyond our imagining, exceeds the symbol in dreadfulness. New Testament teaching about hell is meant to appall us and strike us dumb with horror, assuring us that, as heaven will be better than we could dream, so hell will be worse than we can conceive. Such are the issues of eternity, which need now to be realistically faced.

The concept of hell is of a negative relationship to God, an experience not of his absence so much as of his presence in wrath and displeasure . The experience of God’s anger as a consuming fire (Heb. 12:29), his righteous condemnation for defying him and clinging to the sins he loathes, and the deprivation of all that is valuable, pleasant, and worthwhile will be the shape of the experience of hell (Rom. 2:6, 8-9, 12). The concept is formed by systematically negating every element in the experience of God’s goodness as believers know it through grace and as all mankind knows it through kindly providences (Acts 14:16-17; Ps. 104:10-30; Rom. 2:4). The reality, as was said above, will be more terrible than the concept; no one can imagine how bad hell will be.

Scripture envisages hell as unending (Jude 13; Rev. 20:10). Speculations about a “second chance” after death, or personal annihilation of the ungodly at some stage, have no biblical warrant.

Scripture sees hell as self-chosen; those in hell will realize that they sentenced themselves to it by loving darkness rather than light, choosing not to have their Creator as their Lord, preferring self-indulgent sin to self-denying righteousness, and (if they encountered the gospel) rejecting Jesus rather than coming to him (John 3:18-21; Rom. 1:18, 24, 26, 28, 32; 2:8; 2 Thess. 2:9-11). General revelation confronts all mankind with this issue, and from this standpoint hell appears as God’s gesture of respect for human choice. All receive what they actually chose, either to be with God forever, worshiping him, or without God forever, worshiping themselves . Those who are in hell will know not only that for their doings they deserve it but also that in their hearts they chose it.

The purpose of Bible teaching about hell is to make us appreciate, thankfully embrace, and rationally prefer the grace of Christ that saves us from it (Matt. 5:29-30; 13:48-50). It is really a mercy to mankind that God in Scripture is so explicit about hell. We cannot now say that we have not been warned.

(Concise Theology)
 

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Posted by Billy (Member # 7193) on :
 
Often, when I read the words of others, even when they bear a striking resemblence to my own, I am confronted with the fact that I have a long way to go in my literary education. In the process of trying to convey certain ideas, I never realize how scatter-brained I sound until I read the same ideas expressed by the more scholarly. That was a good excerpt, Carol. Keep them coming.
 

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Posted by Billy (Member # 7193) on :
 
John 11:1 - 3 (NLT)
1 A man named Lazarus was sick. He lived in Bethany with his sisters, Mary and Martha. 2 This is the Mary who later poured the expensive perfume on the Lord’s feet and wiped them with her hair. Her brother, Lazarus, was sick. 3 So the two sisters sent a message to Jesus telling him, “Lord, your dear friend is very sick.”

Does this passage give us enough information about Lazarus to conclude that he was not a beggar? All we know from this passage is...

1) Lazarus was sick.
2) He lived in Bethany.
3) Mary and Martha were his sisters.
4) Mary, at some point, got ahold of some 'expensive' perfume, but that doesn't necessarily suggest that they were well off, or that they shared the wealth with their brother. This could have been a 'widow's mite' instance, meaning; Mary could have spent all she had on that bottle of perfume.
5) Lazarus was Jesus' friend.

Thus my suggestion, that the two Lazarus' could be one and the same, is in tact.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
John 11:1 - 3 (NLT)
1 A man named Lazarus was sick. He lived in Bethany with his sisters , Mary and Martha. 2 This is the Mary who later poured the expensive perfume on the Lord’s feet and wiped them with her hair. Her brother, Lazarus, was sick. 3 So the two sisters sent a message to Jesus telling him, “Lord, your dear friend is very sick.”

John 12:1 - 3 (NLT)
1 Six days before the Passover celebration began, Jesus arrived in Bethany, the home of Lazarus—the man he had raised from the dead . 2 A dinner was prepared in Jesus’ honor. Martha served, and Lazarus was among those who ate with him. 3 Then Mary took a twelve-ounce jar of expensive perfume made from essence of nard, and she anointed Jesus’ feet with it, wiping his feet with her hair. The house was filled with the fragrance.
 

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Posted by Billy (Member # 7193) on :
 
Forgive me. I'm don't believe I'm getting what you're trying to convey. If you are trying to convey that this passage is stating that Lazarus had a home (of whatever construction) in which his sisters resided, I don't believe that is the case. More accurately, John is simply pointing out that Bethany was the home of Lazarus, and that he and his sisters both lived there. Perhaps other versions shed more light on this, not to downplay the NLT. I will look into it. If you are trying to point out something else, please make it plain, so that I may learn.

In Christ,
Billy.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Billy, is this what you believe?

Luke 10:38 - 40 (NLT)
38As Jesus and the disciples continued on their way to Jerusalem, they came to a certain village where a woman named Martha welcomed them into her home. 39Her sister, Mary, sat at the Lord’s feet, listening to what he taught. 40But Martha was distracted by the big dinner she was preparing. She came to Jesus and said, “Lord, doesn’t it seem unfair to you that my sister just sits here while I do all the work? Tell her to come and help me.”

1. Lazarus' sisters could afford to have a big dinner

John 11:3 - 7 (NLT)
3So the two sisters sent a message to Jesus telling him, “ Lord, your dear friend is very sick.” 4But when Jesus heard about it he said, “Lazarus’s sickness will not end in death. No, it happened for the glory of God so that the Son of God will receive glory from this.” 5So although Jesus loved Martha, Mary, and Lazarus , 6he stayed where he was for the next two days. 7Finally, he said to his disciples, “Let’s go back to Judea.”

2. Jesus knew and loved Lazarus

John 11:38 - 39 (NLT)
38Jesus was still angry as he arrived at the tomb, a cave with a stone rolled across its entrance . 39“Roll the stone aside,” Jesus told them. But Martha, the dead man’s sister, protested, “Lord, he has been dead for four days. The smell will be terrible.”

3. Lazarus" sisters could afford grave clothes and a tomb

John 12:1 - 3 (NLT)
1Six days before the Passover celebration began, Jesus arrived in Bethany, the home of Lazarus—the man he had raised from the dead. 2A dinner was prepared in Jesus’ honor . Martha served, and Lazarus was among those who ate with him. 3Then Mary took a twelve-ounce jar of expensive perfume made from essence of nard, and she anointed Jesus’ feet with it, wiping his feet with her hair. The house was filled with the fragrance.

4. Another dinner, and expensive perfume

Luke 16:19 - 21 (NLT)
19Jesus said, “There was a certain rich man who was splendidly clothed in purple and fine linen and who lived each day in luxury. 20At his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus who was covered with sores. 21As Lazarus lay there longing for scraps from the rich man’s table, the dogs would come and lick his open sores.

5. But his family and Jesus let Lazarus lay in the dirt starving and covered with sores until he died?

Is this what you are saying?
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
At any rate, the Lazarus stories teach about conscious existence after death, and resurrection.

Praise to our Lord Jesus Christ!
 

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Posted by Billy (Member # 7193) on :
 
I cannot speak for what Lazarus' sisters allowed or didn't allow in their fallen state. We don't know how much time passed between the resurrection of Lazarus and the feast that Martha prepared for Jesus in her home, or what financial endeavors may have transpired. Thus, we don't even know if they were financially equipped to help their brother at that time, anyway. There is not talk of who purchased the tomb or burial clothes.

And Jesus had a more perfect will for Lazarus (the glory of God being shown through his resurrection), and thus He let him die. Why would He let him die and not let him suffer? Do you see any cases in the Bible where Jesus offers to put someone up in a condo and give them money for groceries and bills, at any point? The love of God is not demonstrated by His willingness to enact our fallible will, but in the fact that He died to save us from eternal torment in the life to come. That is the stuff of Word of Faith theology. Let us not even entertain those thoughts for a moment.

In Christ,
Billy.
 

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Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :
 
I have not read the above posts thoroughly as yet, but have understood the subject to be that of the false notion of the immortality of man.

Man is not immortal, does not have nine lives, and is not an island.

All mankind will be raised immortal after the millenial reign at the coming of Christ.

Those who have accepted Jesus as the propitiation for thier sins and have received Him as thier Lord will be welcomed into Heaven for Eternity. They will Live with Him forever and ever.

Those who have rejected Jesus as the propitiation for thier sins and have refused Him as thier Lord will we thrown alive into the Lake of Fire for Eternity. They will be burned alive forever and ever.

There are those professed Christians who have accepted the propitiation of Jesus as atonement for their sins, but have refused Him Lordship over them. These will pass through the purifying flame, and they will suffer loss. For no sin can enter Heaven.

I do realise that Scripure has not been posted to attest to these facts [due to time contraints atm]. But should you need a witness on any particular point, do feel free to ask.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Clifford

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That false teaching is "THE IMMORTALITY OF THE HUMAN SOUL",

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The term "immortality" refers only to the body. However, the soul does not die.

The Argument from the Soul’s Simplicity

Major premise: What is not composed cannot be decomposed. Whatever is composed of parts can be decomposed into its parts: a molecule into atoms, a cell into molecules, an organ into cells, a body into organs, a person into body and soul. What is not composed of parts cannot be taken apart.

Minor premise: The soul is not composed of parts. It has no countable, quantifiable parts as the body does. You can cut a body in half but not a soul; you can’t have half a soul. You don’t cut an inch off your soul when you get a haircut.

Conclusion: Therefore the soul is not decomposable.

Now there are only two ways of being destroyed: by being decomposed into parts, as the body is, or by being annihilated as a whole. But we know of nothing that is ever annihilated as a whole. Nothing simply pops out of existence. If the soul dies neither in parts (by decomposition) nor as a whole (by annihilation), then the soul does not die.

Formal argument:

1. If souls die, they must die either by decomposition or by annihilation.

2. But what is not composed cannot decompose.

3. And souls are not composed.

4. Therefore souls cannot decompose.

5. And nothing is annihilated as a whole.

6. Therefore souls are not annihilated as a whole.

7. Thus souls do not die either by decomposition or annihilation.

8. Thus souls do not die.

(Handbook of Christian Apologetics)
 

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Posted by apilgrim2 (Member # 7182) on :
 
Dear Carol,

Gen 2:7 - And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man BECAME a living soul.

Man IS a living soul, he does not HAVE a soul which lives on after the flesh dies. Your highly developed "proof" is made up of man's words and concepts gathered from here and there, but you offer NO SCRIPTURE, rightly divided or otherwise, to support your assertions.

"...since it is the new nature that sleeps in Christ, and which, according to Scripture, is renewed day by day and is quickened at our resurrection, the new nature is mortal, and is renewed day by day between the moment we receive salvation to the moment of our resurrection. That which must PUT ON incorruption and immortality cannot be anything but that which is quickened upon our resurrection: the new nature."

Trust in HIM and His WORD of Truth, or trust in tradition and reap its fruits.

In Christ,

-apilgrim2
 

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Posted by Billy (Member # 7193) on :
 
Did someone say, "Bible verse"?

Matthew 10:28
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy BOTH soul and body in hell."

This verse teaches us two things.

1) The body and the soul are separate. The body CAN be killed WITHOUT killing the soul.

2) The Bible speaks of destruction, not annihilation, of the body and soul.

Point One:
Jehovah's Witnesses, strict adherents to the annihilation doctrine, teach that the terms used for body and soul, in Hebrew, are interchangeable, and thus the body and the soul must be one and the same. Jesus teaches that the body and the soul are separate entities. One can die while the other goes on living. Who is right? Jesus or Jehovah's Witnesses?

Point Two:
Can / has anything ever been annihilated? Scientific evidence points to the negative. Matter does not disappear. It merely changes form. Thus, when Jesus talks about destroying the body, He is not talking about annihilating it, but simply about its break down; its decay. On the same token, the 'destruction' of the body is set in direct comparison to the 'destruction' of the soul, in this verse. Thus, we can conclude that when Jesus talks about the destruction of the soul, He is not talking about its annihilation, but its decay.

Hope I've been helpful.

In Christ,
Billy.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Billy

apilgrim2

Haven't you ever heard of Apologetics?


The Soul’s Power to Objectify the Body

Major premise: If there is a power of the soul which cannot come from the body, this indicates that the soul is not a part or a function of the body. That, in turn, indicates that it is not subject to the laws of the body, including mortality.

Minor premise: Such a power of the soul exists which could not come from the body. It is the power to objectify the body. The body cannot objectify itself, be its own object of knowledge, or know itself.

Conclusion: Therefore the soul is not subject to the body’s mortality.

To objectify X, I must be more than X. I can know a stone as an object only because I am not merely a stone as object. The projecting machine can project images on the screen only because it is not merely one more image. I can remember my past only because I am more than my past, I am a present knower. (My present is alive, my past is dead.) I can know my body as object only because I am more than my body. The knowing subject must be more than the known object.

A surprising corollary of this argument seems to be that I can never know my soul, as an object, at least completely, for I do not transcend it. If I do, if I am really some “soul of my soul,” then I cannot know that as object. My senses can know the world, my mind can know my senses, but only Another can know my mind, my soul, my I, my self, my subject—as his object. A God who is pure subject, “I AM WHO I AM,” could know everything as object.

(Handbook of Christian Apologetics)
 

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Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :
 
1 Timothy 6:16 KJV
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

I don't believe that man is immortal, but that God keeps him.

2 Peter 2:4-9 ESV ['Cuz they say Tartarus instead of hell -P]
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into Tartarus and committed them to pits of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard); then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,

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Billy:
Can / has anything ever been annihilated? Scientific evidence points to the negative. Matter does not disappear. It merely changes form.

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But the soul is 'immaterial'.

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Zeena wrote:


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Billy:
Can / has anything ever been annihilated? Scientific evidence points to the negative. Matter does not disappear. It merely changes form.
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But the soul is 'immaterial'.

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Thus, when Jesus talks about destroying the body, He is not talking about annihilating it, but simply about its break down; its decay. On the same token, the 'destruction' of the body is set in direct comparison to the 'destruction' of the soul, in this verse. Thus, we can conclude that when Jesus talks about the destruction of the soul, He is not talking about its annihilation, but its decay.

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Matthew 10:28
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy BOTH soul and body in hell."

This verse teaches us two things.

1) The body and the soul are separate. The body CAN be killed WITHOUT killing the soul.

2) The Bible speaks of destruction, not annihilation, of the body and soul.

Point One:
Jehovah's Witnesses, strict adherents to the annihilation doctrine, teach that the terms used for body and soul, in Hebrew, are interchangeable, and thus the body and the soul must be one and the same. Jesus teaches that the body and the soul are separate entities. One can die while the other goes on living. Who is right? Jesus or Jehovah's Witnesses?

Point Two:
Can / has anything ever been annihilated? Scientific evidence points to the negative. Matter does not disappear. It merely changes form. Thus, when Jesus talks about destroying the body, He is not talking about annihilating it, but simply about its break down; its decay. On the same token, the 'destruction' of the body is set in direct comparison to the 'destruction' of the soul, in this verse. Thus, we can conclude that when Jesus talks about the destruction of the soul, He is not talking about its annihilation, but its decay.

Hope I've been helpful.

In Christ,
Billy.

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There are many places in scripture where the terms Hades and Gehenna are not even used to describe the place of "Weeping and gnashing of teeth, where their worm never dies." Take for example...

Daniel 12:2
Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace {and} everlasting contempt.

Matthew 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

John 5:28&29
"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."

In all of these instances, the eternality of God's wrath which abides on sinners is equated to the eternality of the love that He bestows upon His children. Just as the grace that we receive in the afterlife is of an eternal, conscious quality, so the torment endured by those that have not been reconciled to God has an eternal, conscious quality. The Bible does not mince words on this issue.

Another issue this raises is the issue of our understanding of the eternally holy nature of God. Holiness is not an attribute of God that He can just turn on an turn off as He wills. It is an attribute that is embedded in His nature. A just judge must punish sin. The eternally just Judge must therefore punish sin eternally. Also, have you ever thought of the purpose behind God raising both the saved and the unsaved, on the last day, as is talked about in the above verses? He raises us into perfected, glorified bodies which will never rot or decay, but what kind of bodies do you think He will raise the unconverted into? Well, it could be argued that, if He were to raise them into bodies that likewise do not rot or decay, they would provide the fuel for an eternal lake of fire just like the one that is mentioned in Revelation.

I once asked a Jehovah's Witness if he would be willing to trust in a God that was wrathful toward sin and demonstrated that wrath upon the sinners that commited that sin for an eternity, in hell. I asked him, "If you were provided with proof, from the Bible, that such a God is the one described in its pages, would you trust in Him?" He said, "No." Then, he proceeded to judge the image of God that I'd painted for him. I tell you, today, that this is the God of the Bible, and if you are believing in any other god, than you are believing in an idol that suits your own desires.

Jesus did not die on the cross to save us from annihilation or from earthly consequences to our sins. Anyone that adheres to these doctrines does not know the Jesus of the Bible. Jesus died as a ransom for our sins. Without that ransom sacrifice, the eternal, holy wrath of God abides upon us. And no, hell is not separation from God, for God is omnipresent. God is everywhere and sees everything. Hell is a place where His wrath is executed on the wicked. There is no longing for God, in hell. There is only an ever growing hatred for Him there. This is all in the Bible. The whole of scripture testifies to these doctrines, and if you have ever read through the whole Bible, I pray that God use this as an opportunity to remind you of the passages about which I speak.

In Christ,
Billy.

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apilgrim2 wrote:
Another example is by the unfortunate addition of punctuation to the original Greek, which it DOES NOT USE, but which was directed by King James as it appears in the KJV, and which turns Scriptural Truth into one of a very few verses which, under torture, become a favorite of those who support the evangelical (pentecostal) idea of "Sudden Death, sudden Glory":

Luke 23:43 - And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Few, if any other verses in Scripture can be made to convey the idea that is conveyed by the simple addition of a comma in the WRONG PLACE. Many examples of the same pattern of expression may be found in Scripture as is found in the following:

Luke 23:43 - And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, thou shalt be with me in paradise.

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This is a clear case of the Jehovah's Witnesses changing the Bible to fit their doctrines. Without any warrant whatsoever, they have forced a comma into a part of the sentence that changes entirely the meaning of Jesus' words.

It is helpful to observe how the phrase, "Truly I say to you" is used in Scripture. This phrase-which translates the Greek words amen soi lego-occurs 74 times in the Gospels and is always used as an introductory expression. It is somewhat similar to the Old Testament phrase, "Thus says the Lord." Jesus used the phrase to introduce a truth that was very important.

Now here's the important point: In 73 out of the 74 times the phrase occurs, the New World Translation places a break-such as a comma-immediately after the phrase, "Truly I tell you." Luke 23:43 is the only occurance of this phrase in which the New World Translation does not place the break after it. Why? Because if the break-such as a comma-was placed after "Truly, I say to you," the word "today" would then belong to the second half of the sentence, indicating that "today" the thief would be with Jesus in Paradise. But this would go against Watchtower theology. Hence, the relocated comma.

Apologist Robert Bowman notes that if Jesus really wanted to say, "Truly I say to you today," He could have done this by using a different construction of the Greek language. But based upon the usage of amen soi lego throughout Scripture, it is clear that the word "today" belongs to the second part of the sentence. Not the first.

Related to all this, Watchtower expert Marian Bodine points out that the phrase, "Truly I say to you today," does not make good sense: "It would have been needless to say, 'Today, I am telling this to you.' Of course He was! What other day would He have been speaking to the thief on? Jesus never added the word 'today' when speaking to anyone."

Now, according to orthodox scholars, this thief apparently believed that Jesus would eventually come into His kingdom at the end of the world. He therefore asked to be remembered by Jesus at that time. Jesus' reply, however, promised him more than he had asked for: "Today [not just at the end of the world] you will be with me in Paradise."

And what is this "Paradise"? First-century Jews believed Paradise was a place of blessedness occupied by the souls of righteous people who had physically died. This place of blessing was considered to be a compartment of Hades. Thus, when Jesus promised the thief that he would go to Paradise, He was promising the thief that he would be in the blessed resting place of the righteous dead. Later, at the Ascension, Christ took the occupants of this compartment to heaven with Him (2Corinthians 12:4).

From the above, it is clear that Luke 23:43 argues strongly agains the Watchtower position that there is no immaterial nature that consciously survives death. As is true with other Bible verses, a thorough look at the text unmasks the Watchtower deception.

Ron Rhodes, Reasoning from the Scriptures with the Jehovah's Witnesses, pp 327-330

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Originally posted by Billy:

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apilgrim2 wrote:
Hi Billy . . . I notice that you quote the cult of the 'witnesses' often in response to the postings of others.

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Are you hoping to paint me as a 'witness', and thereby devalue the content of my post?

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If so, do you believe I will turn from what the Spirit has revealed simply because there appears to be a similarity between what the 'witnesses' teach and what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me in Scripture?

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Rather than labeling me as a "known commodity" by pointing out such similarities, I hoped that my postings would be read in light of the Scriptural Truth I am prayerfully attempting to convey.

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Please consider taking them for what they are [my postings] rather than tucking them into a cubby-hole of preconception labelled 'the witnesses' and their ilk.

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I spent years trying to get my father to open his eyes to the Truth, rather than rely upon the false teachings of a cult that just happened to arrive at his door first, at one of the rare times when he was concerned about the well-being of his adulterous second family. But, as with so many who either cannot or will not take Scripture for what it says, he held on to what he learned through years of "study" with the witnesses, and so he was effectively blinded to the Truth.

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Clifford wrote:
I think that we have to first establish that when I quote the scriptures, I am NOT quoting from the Jehovah's Witnesses bible.

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I use only the interlinear Hebrew and Greek translation and the Companion bible. The Hebrew and Greek interlinear translation, gives the words as they appear on the ORIGINAL Hebrew and Greek manuscripts, i.e, the Books of Moses, the Psalms, and the Prophets, and the Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Both used and endorsed by Paul (Acts 28:23)and (II Tim. 4:13).

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First from Gen. 2:7, we learn what the living "soul" is composed of which is "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (neshamah, or breath (that is) life), and man became a living soul."

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Mat. 10:28 says "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell". (Hell here is the word Gehenna, which is the transliteration of the Hebrew Gai' Hinnom, i.e., the valley of Hinnom, where were the fires through which children were passed in the worship of Moloch, a pagan God which originated in Babylon.).

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Now in Mat. 10:28, the "body" in the first clause, is the dust of the ground, the soul which is referenced after that is the flesh (dust of the ground) and the breath (that is) life.

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Remember in Gen. 2:7, there is no mention of an "immortal soul", only a living soul...

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...which GOD says is composed of dust of the ground and breath of life.

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So Mat 10:28 says fear NOT those which kill the dust of the ground, but fear Him, God, who can destroy BOTH dust of the ground and breath of life, which GOD can do.

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See John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not PERISH, but have everlasting life". Here the word used in contrast with everlasting life, is PERISH, not be tormented in Hell! God says what he means and means what he says.

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Here the word used in contrast with everlasting life, is PERISH, not be tormented in Hell! God says what he means and means what he says.

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Please read scripture as it is written and please read it in context and in the light of what God has revealed elsewhere.

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It will bring to light and clarify many misunderstandings that have been made in Satan's attempt to substitute his lie, Gen. 3:4 "Ye shall not surely die". This has ever been Satan's lie to man, that God did not really say that man would die, but that man would not die. Who do you want to believe? God, who said that man would "surely" die, or Satan, who said man would "not surely" die? The choice is yours.

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God said that the very day that Adam ate of the fruit he would surely die. Did he physically die, on that very day? No. Thus, we must conclude that he died, spiritually. This is why you have the triune composition of man represented by evangelicals, today; body, soul and spirit. The body being the material man. The soul being the essence (or mind) of man. And the spirit being that part of man that communes with God. On the day that Adam sinned, his spirit died, but his body and soul lived on. His body unto physical death, and his soul unto eventual, everlasting torment, if he did not in fact repent and trust in Yahweh (Jesus) to save him from his sins.

I must repeat an earlier question, though. What do you believe that God has saved you from, if not eternal torment in the lake of fire?

In Christ,
Billy.
 

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Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :
 
All flesh is raised immortal at the day of the Lord.

Some will go into everlasting torments and those who have been purchased into everlasting Life.

This is Scriptural. ALL FLESH shall see Him, EVEN those who pierced Him, ALL FLESH shall see Him together, the dead WILL BE RAISED immortal!

Jesus died for the sins of the WHOLE world, therefore ALL will be raised immortal, for only HE has immortality.

2 Corinthians 5:15
And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

The thing is;

Do they have Life?

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Now, all these sayings [above] are SCRIPTURAL, and if on ANY point you differ, PLEASE ASK for a witness and I will expound with SCRIPTURE!

2 Timothy 1:10
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Life and immortality there are two different things, Life being ETERNAL LIFE, immortality being the indestructability of the body, and thereby the soul.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/93751/What-is-meant-by-Conditional-Immortality-and-what-if-any-is-the-Biblical-basis-for-it
 

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Posted by Clifford (Member # 7264) on :
 
Billy:

I wrote:

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I think that we have to first establish that when I quote the scriptures, I am NOT quoting from the Jehovah's Witnesses bible. I use only the interlinear Hebrew and Greek translation and the Companion bible. The Hebrew and Greek interlinear translation, gives the words as they appear on the ORIGINAL Hebrew and Greek manuscripts, i.e, the Books of Moses, the Psalms, and the Prophets, and the Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Both used and endorsed by Paul (Acts 28:23)and (II Tim. 4:13).

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I never said that you did

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This is why I continue to compare your arguments with the Jehovah's Witnesses

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because matter is not naturally animated, but animated through the work of God

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I Tim. 6:16 Who ONLY hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; Whom NO MAN HATH SEEN , nor can see; to Whom be honor and power everlasting

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John 3:13 "AND NO MAN hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

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Billy:

I wrote:


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I think that we have to first establish that when I quote the scriptures, I am NOT quoting from the Jehovah's Witnesses bible. I use only the interlinear Hebrew and Greek translation and the Companion bible. The Hebrew and Greek interlinear translation, gives the words as they appear on the ORIGINAL Hebrew and Greek manuscripts, i.e, the Books of Moses, the Psalms, and the Prophets, and the Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Both used and endorsed by Paul (Acts 28:23)and (II Tim. 4:13).
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To which you replied:


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I never said that you did
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All through your response you compare my statements with what Jehovah's Witnesses believe, such as:


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This is why I continue to compare your arguments with the Jehovah's Witnesses
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True, you never directly said I quote from Jehovah's Witnesses bible, but you imply that I have somehow derived a doctrine from the original Greek and Hebrew that conforms to what they believe, even though the Jehovah's Witnesses did not even exist when the original scriptures were written.

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If you believe that God inspired the men who wrote the original documents and that if his word is inerrant and infallible, then how can you assert that I am arguing from that position? Also, I never argue. I quote the word.

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I do not purport to teach anything to anyone. I have quoted scripture to you and you refuse to acknowledge the verses I have quoted.

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True the exact word used in Gen. 2:7 is "formed" not "composed", but we are not talking here about the molecular composition of the body, although one can certainly determine by modern methods what, the constituent elements of the "dust of the ground" are at any specific location. The point is this, God only lists two things that he used to form man, 1. dust of the earth, and 2. breath of life. No mention anywhere about an "immortal" soul.

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So Mat 10:28 says fear NOT those which kill the dust of the ground, but fear Him, God, who can destroy BOTH dust of the ground and breath of life, which GOD can do.

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You don't even address the issue of the banishment from the tree of Life. Why did God prevent Adam and Eve from eating of the one tree in the garden that could grant them everlasting life, if both of them were already immortal?

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God said that the very day that Adam ate of the fruit he would surely die. Did he physically die, on that very day? No. Thus, we must conclude that he died, spiritually. This is why you have the triune composition of man represented by evangelicals, today; body, soul and spirit. The body being the material man. The soul being the essence (or mind) of man. And the spirit being that part of man that communes with God. On the day that Adam sinned, his spirit died, but his body and soul lived on. His body unto physical death, and his soul unto eventual, everlasting torment, if he did not in fact repent and trust in Yahweh (Jesus) to save him from his sins.

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Please quote me the scripture verse in Gen. where God says that he created man "with" an immortal soul, or that man "is" an immortal soul. I would be eager to see that verse.

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Clifford:

the constituent elements of the "dust of the ground"

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2 Peter 3:10-13
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

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You wrote:
Nowhere in your response did I find that you have addressed the following verse:


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I Tim. 6:16 Who ONLY hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; Whom NO MAN HATH SEEN , nor can see; to Whom be honor and power everlasting
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Does man dwell in the light which "no man can approach unto", if this verse is correct, then no man has ever yet approached unto the glory of God, yet you propose that man, having an "immortal" soul, and going directly to heaven when he dies, goes immediately into the glory and presence of God, which this verse says no man has yet done (nor can see).

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Additionally you don't even approach the verses quoted in 1 Cor. 15, nor Acts 2:34 which states: "FOR DAVID IS NOT ASCENDED into the heavens . . ." (I will not quote all of I Cor. 15 here, please everyone, read the references)

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Also, consider the whole of I Cor. 15 and I Thes. 4. In both of these chapters, Paul writes about the coming of the Lord again. The main theme, especially, of I Cor. 15, is the " PUTTING ON " of immortality, AT THE TIME OF RESURRECTION I Cor. 15:51-55. I Cor. 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP ; for the trumpet shall sound, and the DEAD shall be raised INCORRUPTIBLE , and we shall be changed." I Cor. 15:53 "for this CORRUPTIBLE must PUT ON INCORRUPTION , and this MORTAL must PUT ON IMMORTALITY ."
These statements are clear and concise. Do you believe Paul is lying to us? He too was inspired by the Holy Spirit and if he were lying the Holy Spirit would not have tolerated it.

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What you are implying is that there is no need for Christ to come to us and resurrect us, we, being already immortal, are coming to him at or upon our death.

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If that were not true, where is Lazarus? He was a believer, did he not have immortality? Was he not raised to everlasting life? Where is he now? How come he is not among is? Could it be he died again? How can that be if he was immortal? Immortality itself implies the in-ability to die. How can something that is or has immortality die? If you believe that the body is the only thing that can die, and that man has an immortal soul that goes on to heaven when he does die, please quote those verses to me. Also please consider all the other instances of scripture (some already given in earlier posts) where the dead were raised. Consider the ones in Hebrews 11 who wanted a better resurrection and did not accept the first one, and were returned to their womenfolk. Where are all those dear saints now, if they were raised to life everlasting? Did they all die again? How come they died again if they were already immortal? Is scripture telling us lies? The doctrine of the immortality of the soul is in direct conflict with the evidence of scripture. How about the young man Paul raised when that young man fell out of the window and was taken up dead? Where is he now if he were raised to everlasting life? Was he not immortal?

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John 3:13 "AND NO MAN hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

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As I said, Paul is talking here about the raising of the immortal body, not an immortal soul which had previously been distinguished when the first body passed away. Nowhere in 1Corinthians 15 or 1Thessalonians 4 does he even allude the the idea that the soul does not survive the body. As I said before, this is a doctrine that you have based solely on a faulty understanding of Genesis 2:7, and when a doctrine hinges solely on one verse or passage, it cannot hold water. The whole of scripture must testify of it, or it is fools gold.

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"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man "became" a living soul, Gen. 2:7."

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The purpose of the resurrection is not to immoralize the soul of man. The purpose of the resurrection is to set things back in order;

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John 11:40 "Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the Glory of God."

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Phil. 3:10 "that I man know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death."

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I never implied that we receive immortal bodies before the final resurrection. This much you assumed I was saying.

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Originally posted by Zeena:
Ok then ya'll, here's a REALLY good question;

How will the dead [unbelievers] be raised so that they can be judged?

AND, how will they suffer for eternity in both the body and the soul if thier bodies and souls undergo decay again?

OR are they annihilated upon entering the burning flames of hell?

Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

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So sad...so unnecessary

Unsaved people who do not possess eternal life possess a mortal body that will never be immortal. Their soul and spirit will go on existing forever but their body, raised for judgment, will suffer “the second death” at the sinner’s judgment of the white throne (Revelation 20:14). This is not annihilation. This is eternal conscious existence in "separation" from God, and thus torment and what is called “fire which burns with brimstone.” Apparently the term “second death” implies the dissolution or corruption of the resurrected body of the unsaved whose personality does not possess immortality.
 

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Posted by Keith (Member # 6840) on :
 
Ps 37:20 20But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Ps 68:1-3 1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.

Ps 73:27 27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.

Ps 112:10 10 The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.

Isa 41:11-12 11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.
12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.

1 Cor 1:17-18 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

II Th 2:10-12 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Pet 2:12 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Pet 3:9-12 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Jude 1:7 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

In the above verse we are given an example of the effects of eternal fire. Sodom and Gomorrha are no more. They were completely destroyed by eternal fire, and have quite surely perished. If they were still burning today, then some might be able to argue that eternal fire meant being burned for eternity. Since they no longer exist, it is obvious that the meaning of eternal fire, is the complete annihilation of the thing suffering its effects.
 

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Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :
 
So then, these verses pertain to the soul only?

Mark 9:44
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mark 9:46
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mark 9:48
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Isaiah 66:24
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

And what about that devil, who is spirit?

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Death is cast into the Lake of Fire after that time, this takes place before or after persons are annihilated?

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 

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Posted by apilgrim2 (Member # 7182) on :
 
The Doctrine of the Immortal Soul

Another obvious crack in Israel's armour, where heresies of spirit-beings or ghosts crept into our Christian faith, was at the point where our ancestors began to accept the pagan doctrine of the "immortal soul." That is the doctrine which teaches that "a soul" is one-third of the component parts of a man, and that it is immortal: an entity which cannot die. God's people fell for this false teaching starting in the book of Genesis, chapter 3 Where the first false prophet bamboozled Eve by telling her:

'You shall not surely die. " Genesis 3:4
What did this primal guru mean by "ye shall not surely die?" Well, he meant "THE REAL YOU cannot die; just your flesh (the unneeded part of you) dies. The real YOU (your soul) cannot die. YOU are immortal. Only the flesh part of you dies" (not actually YOU). This has been the first and foremost lie foisted upon idolatrous mankind.

Churches accepted and then taught this pagan doctrine. It came largely through the Catholic Church after the traditions of the Pharisees. It was largely through this channel that paganism got its foothold in Christendom.

The doctrine of the immortal soul was only one of the many false doctrines which the Catholics brought in. And in the process, the concept of "soul" and "spirit" got confused. According to them, a man's "soul" was his "spirit."


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THE PRE-EXISTENCE DOCTRINE
When you think in terms of an immortal spirit or an eternal life, you start to realize that eternity in this sense goes BACKWARD as well as FORWARD; it goes into the past as well as into the future. Therefore, if a soul or spirit is eternal then it had to exist before it took over a body, and it must also continue after that body dies. So where were they before they became fleshly bodies? The false teaching is, that a man is not what he appears to be. Supposedly he is a spirit-being with this external flesh attached just to give him form. According to them, the real person is not the body which is temporal, but the spirit which Is eternal. This adds up to "pre-existence." This doctrine is taught by several pseudo-Christian groups-like the Mormons-who claim that they were Immortal spirits some place up in heaven before they came down to earth and slipped into a body of flesh.


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THE REINCARNATION DOCTRINE
One of the natural results of the false doctrine of pre-existence is that It naturally leads to a belief In reincarnation. Our fleshly body cannot live very long, so If you are really an Immortal spirit you have to go somewhere else when the body dim Usually, they claim that we go from body to body. You cannot remain forever In one body, so you must "transmigrate" (reincarnate). "Incarnation" Is a pagan concept of a spirit being possessing a flesh body. Truthfully, I do not believe It is even a viable term, but It Is a popular concept nonetheless. The doctrine of incarnation Is that a spirit can "incarnate" or possess, a flesh body. "Reincarnation," then, is simply a repeat of that process where a spirit being is said to possess one body until that body dies and then move on to another body until it dies-and on and on it goes. First John, chapter 4 addresses this problem directly:

'Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits (test the spirits), whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit (not every ghost but every motive) that confesseth that Jesus Christ Is cow In the flesh is of God. And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is the spirit of antichrist...' 1 J n 4:1-3
Gnostics held, according to the pre-existence doctrine, that Jesus was actually a spirit and not flesh. That, by definition, made them "antichrists." In Greek, "ANTI-CHRIST" means "IN PLACE OF CHRIST" (ANTE = in place of). The gnostic teaching of reincarnation described another Christ. This other Christ was the one whom the Gnostics claimed was not flesh. This imaginary non flesh christ was an "ante-Christ" - a christ who was put % place of" the true Christ. John was warning Christians against accepting a counterfeit ante-Christ.

This heresy is known as Gnosticism and it has serious implications concerning Jesus. "Gnostic" is a Greek word that means "to know." Therefore, a "Gnostic" is "one who knows." What does he claim to know? Simply this: that we are each immortal and cannot die. Therefore, the immortality of the soul was their salvation - omitting their need for Christ.

Now, if you think you have an immortal soul, then you must think that Jesus did too. If Jesus had an immortal soul, guess what? OUR SAVIOUR NEVER DIED FOR US! (Remember you cannot die if you are immortal). If you embrace the teachings of Gnosticism, you do not need Christ to die for you; all you need is someone to tell you that you are eternal -so you can "know" it. Of course, Gnostics do not believe Christ really died. They believe that Christ was not flesh because flesh is evil. Therefore, He was a spirit in a mere "envelope of flesh," and on the cross only the flesh died. Jesus, himself (the spirit), went right on living. In other words, Gnostics claim that Jesus did not die. Therefore, if He did not die He could not have been resurrected. That is Gnosticism. . Unfortunately, this very serious doctrinal error is believed by many in Christendom today.

This is heavy doctrine. These issues form the foundation upon which is built everything else that we believe. They are the foundation upon which we can build a strong, correct understanding of God's Word. Otherwise we will be building on sand, and everything will wash away in the first storm. In logic we are told to always check the premise, because if the premise is wrong then everything else no matter how logical it may sound will be wrong. Therefore, in the following section, entitled Body Soul and Spirit," we will break this subject down even further to make sure our premise (or foundation) is correct.

I realize that some of you are hearing this for the first time, and it may sound strange. But this subject is the kind of study YOU must prove for yourself. Scripture says to:

`Prove all things, hold fast that which is good.' 1 Thessalonians 5:21

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BODY, SOUL AND SPIRIT
'And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man BECAME a living soul. ` Gen 2:7
Let us examine the picture this presents. God formed a body out of the dust of the ground. At this point it is not a person; it is simply a body-or more accurately, a corpse. Then God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life:" or in other words, moving air. As I mentioned earlier, the word "spirit" literally means air in motion. Breath is air in motion, and thus, spirit. Spirit is added to the body. Therefore, a body (corpse), plus spirit (breath), equals a LIVING SOUL.

Conversely, at death you have a body or a corpse again with no life in it. It is now a dead soul. Thus, "a living soul" is a body with a spirit. This is according to the Old Testament Hebrew language.

The Greek language In the New Testament has a slightly different connotation. The Greek word for "soul" is "psuche" (psoo-khay). In Greek thought, the word "psuche" actually meant the whole essence of a person. In other words the "soul" is the result of all the components together that make a person what he Is. However, in the New Testament, when it quotes from or refers back to the Old Testament, in these places we understand "soul" according to the Hebrew meaning.
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Sharing and caring . . . . apilgrim2
 

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Posted by Clifford (Member # 7264) on :
 
Dear Billy:

All I have ever asked you or anyone else posting in this thread to do is give me scripture where it says man has or was created with an immortal soul. All I have ever found in the word of God is what Gen 2:7 says, that man was formed from the dust of the ground, i.e., the body of flesh, and the breath of life. No one has yet given me scripture that says such a thing.

Paul gives two Chapters in two different books that only reference the "putting on" of "immortality" and "incorruption", and of a naked state which he did not want for himself, that was a time between death and resurrection, which he himself describes as "sleep". Either we believe what God has given to us, or we believe what man "says" God has given to us.

I only believe the scripture. No where does Paul ever use the word "annihilation", he does however use the word perish. And if God says "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not PERISH but have everlasting life", and "He that hath the Son hath life, and he that hath not the Son hath not life", then that is what God means. He does not say, that he that hath not the Son of God goes to hell, to live on forever and ever, under Satan's control, which implies also that Satan has immortality, or he could not be directing an everlasting hell, which is a monstrous blasphemy to me, to imply that Satan has immortality like Christ!!

Do you see where this lie of Satan leads? If "all" men have an "immortal" soul and the believers go immediately to heaven and don't need resurrection, then that eliminates the need for Christ who said he "is" the resurrection. And, if the unbelievers go to an "everlasting" place of torment, run by Satan, then Satan too must be everlasting. This is something I cannot accept, especially when the word of God says in I Tim. 6:16 that Christ "alone" has immortality. I can't understand how YOU can allow for the immortality of unbelievers and the immortality of Satan? Scripture says clearly and emphatically that those without Christ "have not life", period.

As I said before, there is a fundamental problem in that you believe that scripture says that the body and the soul are two separate things, despite Gen. 2:7 which says that the body and the breath of life equal the living soul (no mention of immortality here), and you have not yet given me any scripture verse that says such a thing. I need scripture Billy, I need to see God's word, not mans interpretation of it. Where in the scriptures do you find a verse that says that man has or was created with an immortal soul? Please show me so that I can learn this truth. If it is not to be found in the word of God, then it can't be Gods word. But if it is, please give me the Chapter and verse where this is stated. I have given you many verses where it says that immortality is a thing to be "put on" at resurrection. That Christ "only" has immortality, that man was created from dust and breath of life, that man is a living soul (not an immortal one), but you have not yet shown me where it says he was created immortal or has an immortal soul. Only Christ can give immortality, this is the teaching of scripture. Paul was not looking for death, but resurrection. He did not say "absent from the body is to be present with the Lord", what he did say was that while "he was in his body he was absent from his Lord", that is quite a different thing. He fully expected to be with his Lord and very much desired to be with his Lord, but only in the way that scripture teaches and that is by being resurrected by his Lord, at his coming, or as Christ repeats 4 times in the book of John, "at the Last Day".

I don't know what I can do to enhance the word of God and I know I can't. I can only believe his word as given through divinely inspired men.

Job 32:8 "But [there is] a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding"

2 Tim. 3:16 "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

2 Pet. 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost."

Scripture gives ample proof that it is divinely inspired, so we have to believe that it comes from God, and if God says I Tim. 6:16 "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen."; then he means that "only" Christ, now dwelling in the light has "immortality", that is all he says in this verse. So do we believe that "only" Christ has "immortality"? I do. That is what this verse says. I do not add anything to it or subtract, and where in scripture do you find God asking man to provide a critique of his word or an analysis or a treatise? He only asks us to believe his word.

Final quote: 2 Th. 2:13 "For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received [it] not [as] the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that [believe]."

In Christian Love,

Clifford
 

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Posted by apilgrim2 (Member # 7182) on :
 
AMEN Brother!!

-apilgrim2
 

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Posted by Billy (Member # 7193) on :
 
Clifford,

I must point out that, yet again, you don't answer my questions. I have been very gracious by answering yours, but you flat refuse to answer mine. How many more times will I have to exhort you to do so? One. This is it. I will indulge you no further. I will sit back and wait for you to answer all of my questions before I will reply to you again. If you continue to refuse, I will dust my feet off and be done with you. I refuse to waste my time writing lengthy posts and answering the same questions over and over again, while you refuse to answer mine. Apparently, you are more comfortable being on the offensive, because you never defend yourself, but avoid the issues that I raise. I love you, brother, but I could be spending my time doing other things for the Lord. Instead you would have me waste my time by writing at length about a subject that is paramount in my theology, and you don't even feel the need to show enough respect for my posts to answer them. Regardless of whether or not I come across as respectful with my answers, at least I respect you enough to answer. If you don't stop disregarding my posts, I will be done with you.

In Christ,
Billy.

ps. I have given you scripture, but you will not respond to it. How long will you avoid looking into the mirror of the law? Your insistent avoidance of my questions shows that you don't want to answer them. Or is it perhaps that you cannot answer them and keep your doctrine intact?
 

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Posted by Billy (Member # 7193) on :
 
I will continue to cut and paste the above reply until you stop avoiding me.
 

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Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Billy:
I will continue to cut and paste the above reply until you stop avoiding me.

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Posted by Keith (Member # 6840) on :
 

quote:

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So then, these verses pertain to the soul only?

Mark 9:44
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mark 9:46
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mark 9:48
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Isaiah 66:24
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

And what about that devil, who is spirit?

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Death is cast into the Lake of Fire after that time, this takes place before or after persons are annihilated?

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Keith:
Where does the bible say that the Devil is spirit?

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Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

But man is a tripartite being, spirit, soul and body..

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

[not in speaking of you, I believe] However, it's quite interesting that the Lord denotes the identity of these men as BEING of the devil.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Question here please?
How can thier worm dieth not, and the fire not be quenched if the worm has no food and the fire has nothing to consume?

Isaiah 10:17-19
So the Light of Israel will be for a fire, And his Holy One for a flame; It will burn and devour His thorns and his briers in one day. And it will consume the glory of his forest and of his fruitful field, Both soul and body; And they will be as when a sick man wastes away. Then the rest of the trees of his forest Will be so few in number That a child may write them.

So, the worm will die, and the fire will be quenched?

Luke 12:49
I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!
 

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Posted by Billy (Member # 7193) on :
 
Zeena, the Christian Soldier! Whip that sword out and show us what you can do! Honestly, I was getting a little worn down by doing all this research, plus my own personal studies. Glad you could step in and fill the gap. That goes for you too, Carol. You're doing great.

In Christ,
Billy.
 

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Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :
 
I rather appreciated Keith's contribution.
However, ChosenOne has also been saying aion is an age, in which [she?] justifies universialism.

It is oh so obvious Keith is nowhere near that camp, however, if aion is indeed an 'age', might it lead to that same [or even diametrically opposed] doctrine?

Balance is needed here!

We pray you Father, by the Presence of your Holy Spirit within us to both reveal to and illume our minds to recieve your Truth. Amen.
 

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Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :
 
Based upon what Keith wrote, this Scripture was served up to my mind.

Isaiah 10:17-19
So the Light of Israel will be for a fire, And his Holy One for a flame; It will burn and devour His thorns and his briers in one day. And it will consume the glory of his forest and of his fruitful field, Both soul and body; And they will be as when a sick man wastes away. Then the rest of the trees of his forest Will be so few in number That a child may write them.

I've always internalised that Scripture..

I suppose it could be externalised, and is warranted to be both, except for this one fact.. It's HIS forest He's talking about.. HIS fruitful feild..

John 15:2
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Matthew 3:12
His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire.

Every single one of these Scripture verses are speaking of born again believers.

Acts 2:3
They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them.

Isaiah 5:25
Therefore the LORD's anger burns against his people; his hand is raised and he strikes them down. The mountains shake, and the dead bodies are like refuse in the streets. Yet for all this, his anger is not turned away, his hand is still upraised.

1 Corinthians 11:30
That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.
 

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Posted by Keith (Member # 6840) on :
 
Universalism and eternal torment are just opposite ends of two extremes. They both promote the immortality of the soul. They were both created by the Devil to malign the character of God. Universalism leaves people with no choice. They will all be saved and changed into the image of God, whether they choose to or not. This contradicts God’s conclusive statement in Genesis at creation. It also perpetuates the Devil’s first lie to humanity.

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

At least the doctrine of eternal torment leaves the individual with a choice in the matter. I certainly will not say though, that it is the better of the two. A lie, is a lie, and the Devil is the father of all lies, including the first one ever told to humanity.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The doctrine of eternal torment makes God out to be the perpetuator of sin, pain, and suffering. All things which God Himself has conclusively stated, will come to an end.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Sin, and crying, and pain, and suffering, cannot pass away while there are sinners burning in an eternal hell.

Again, it is this doctrine of the immortality of the soul which comes to Christianity through the Church of Rome, which causes so much confusion, and biblical contradiction. Those who promote it say that the bible doesn’t really mean that the soul that sinneth will die when it says so, (Eze. 18:4&20).

They say it doesn’t really mean that the wicked will perish when it says so, (Ps 37:20, Ps 68:1-3 , Ps 73:27 , Ps 112:10, Isa 41:11-12, John 3:14-18, John 10:28 , 1 Cor 1:17-18 , II Th 2:10-12, 2 Pet 2:12, 2 Pet 3:9-12 , Jude 1:7).

They say that it doesn’t mean that the dead are in a state of sleep when it says so. Who could be referred to as sleeping, when they were in heaven in the literal presence of God and His angels? What are they so bored that they can’t stay awake in heaven? Who could be referred to as sleeping, if they were being burned in fire in a place called hell? (Deut 31:16, 2 Sam 7:12, IKing 1:21, Job 7:21, Job 14:10-12, Ps 13:3, Jer 51:39, Jer 51:57, IKing 1:21, IKing 2:10, IKing 11:43, IKing 14:20, IKing 14:31, IKing 15:8, Ps 13:3, Dan 12:2, Matt 9:24, Mark 5:39, John 11:11-14, Acts 7:60, 1 Cor 15:51-52, 1Thes 4:13-16, 2 Pet 3:4, Matt 27:52-53, Acts 7:59-60 ).

They say it doesn’t mean the dead have no thoughts when it says so, (Eccl 9:5-6, Eccl 9:10, Ps 146:3-4, Ps 115:17).

They say that the wicked who do not have the Son, can still have some form of life, or existence apart from the same, when the scriptures say they cannot, (John 3:14-17, I Jn 5:11-12 , Jn 3:36, Jn 6:53&54).

They say the soul is immortal, when the scriptures say that God alone has immortality, (1 Tim 6:15-16).

They say the soul is immortal, when the scriptures say when, where, and by whom we will receive immortality, (1 Cor 15:51-54).

The bible is filled with scriptures from one end to the other that contradict what they believe, yet they care not. They have chosen to believe that which makes the bible contradict itself. They have chosen to cling tenaciously to that which was conceived within the Church of Rome, who is verily BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. What are her abominations, but her false teachings and doctrines which malign the character of God.

They believe that the God who is love, will torture the unsaved throughout the endless ages of eternity. Out of one side of their mouths they say that God loved us so much that He died for us, and out of the other they say, now worship Him or He will torture you throughout the endless ages of eternity. What a sick and twisted picture of love they paint. Accusing God of committing a worse atrocity than the Devil could ever even be capable of committing. How can God tell us to love our enemies as He did here on earth through His Son, when He intends to torture His enemies throughout the endless ages of eternity?
How can one think that God is love, while believing that He will do this? What does one who believes such a thing, think love really is?

I Jn 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

I Jn 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Please come out of Babylon. Separate yourselves from her false and abominable teachings and doctrines, for why will you receive of her plagues. The Church of Rome and her adherents are always communicating with the dead. They pray to Mary and the dead saints routinely. The Popes have dedicated this world to Mary, and thus to the dead. They even get answers to their prayers from the same, and are communicated to by the same. I tell you the truth, it is not the dead that they are communicating with, but the Devil himself, and his angels.

This is the Church that would have you also pray to the dead. It is being led by the Devil disguised as the dead. This is the church that will exalt the day of the sun above the day of God’s own choosing by law when it is able. It looks to you, for your cooperation. Will you continue to support BABYLON THE GREAT through these two major deceptions, the immortality of the soul, and Sunday sacredness, or will you come out of BABYLON? Flee from her, and her false doctrines. You must separate from Babylon if you will be in the new heaven and earth, for she is the leader of this world in rebellion against God and His authority. Do you not understand that it is only those who have already chosen to believe a lie over the truth, that God will send strong delusion upon. All those who have not a love for the truth, will be deceived.


John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


II Th 2: 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I do not speak these things by way of condemnation, for Christ came not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. We must separate ourselves from Babylon if we are to be saved from her plagues, which will come upon the entire world in rebellion against God through her leadership.

Y. b. in C. Keith
 

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Posted by Billy (Member # 7193) on :
 
http://www.tektonics.org/af/annix.html
 

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Posted by Billy (Member # 7193) on :
 
http://www.carm.org/uni/elect.htm
 

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Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :
 
Excellent post Keith, I'ma seek the Lord for wisdom.

I recieved a vision a while ago of people perishing [being consummed, and I don't believe they were no more] before my eyes [but I did not see the end of the matter], and was rebuked by a fellow Saint [highly respected by me, for revealing the Life of Christ] when I conveyed what I saw..

Since then, I suppose I've 'conformed' to the doctrine of eternal torment.

I know ya'll, in both camps, will be praying for me, and it's much appreciated, thanks.

Be careful with CARM Billy, reformed doctrine leaves much to be desired imo..
 

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Posted by Keith (Member # 6840) on :
 
I will of course be praying for you Zeena.

1Thes 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Isa 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

The word of God is the final authority concerning all things. There are many who would use it to lord over you. God Himself though says,- “Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.” (Isa 1:18).

God is love, His mercy endureth forever (Ps 136). It is not possible for God to have mercy that endureth forever, and also for God to have vengeance that endureth forever through the burning of the wicked throughout the endless ages of eternity.

Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Y. b. in C. Keith
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Keith said:

quote:

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They believe that the God who is love, will torture the unsaved throughout the endless ages of eternity. Out of one side of their mouths they say that God loved us so much that He died for us, and out of the other they say, now worship Him or He will torture you throughout the endless ages of eternity. What a sick and twisted picture of love they paint. Accusing God of committing a worse atrocity than the Devil could ever even be capable of committing. How can God tell us to love our enemies as He did here on earth through His Son, when He intends to torture His enemies throughout the endless ages of eternity?
How can one think that God is love, while believing that He will do this? What does one who believes such a thing, think love really is?

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quote:

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Billy sed

quote:

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It might be argued, "Well, how can God be present in Hell if He cannot be in the presence of sin."

This is a falacitic statement, though it is one that I've asked myself. If we claim God's presence on this earth, and the earth is full of sin and sinners, it is not a far stretch to say that God is also actively present in hell. Though, I would say that, just as our sin on earth keeps us from being able to recognize the presence of God in our lives, so the inhabitants of hell will not be able to experience it either. Also, it could be said that, though God is there, because He is everywhere, His grace is not. God's grace is the only thing holding back His wrath, and so the absence of His grace means the presence of His wrath. That is what make hell so tormenting.

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• Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
  Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

• Luk 16:9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon [wealth] of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.

This is why the worst thing that one can do is be religious without surrender to Christ, because he will not have anything to keep him company except the reminders of what it means to serve Christ.


Sorry! I may be a little off topic!
 

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Posted by apilgrim2 (Member # 7182) on :
 
Thank you Keith!

You have gathered the Scriptures that make this Truth so clear. You have said exactly what Clifford and I have been trying to get those who believe man is, or has, an eternal soul, to see, but there are those who WILL NOT see. We pray for those who will allow only that which affirms what they already believe.

You have quite clearly illustrated the mortality of man, and the immortality of God. From this we can see that the PUTTING ON of immortality by the resurrected believer is WHEN THE LORD WILLS IT TO BE SO and not one moment sooner.

Indeed, we can deduce from Scripture that the believer's perception of time between his death in this body of flesh and resurrection in a body likened unto The LORD's body, will seem but a brief interval, no matter how long they sleep in Christ Jesus. It may be to the believer as though it never happened at all.

I imagine awakening to the Lord speaking my new name in my ears of perfect hearing, and opening my eyes of perfect vision, and rising in a body of perfect dimension and function.

"Rise, beloved, and behold: Life in perfection "

quote:

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Originally posted by Keith:
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

When God united His breath, or spirit with man, man became a living soul. A living soul is composed of body and spirit.

05397 hmvn n@shamah nesh-aw-maw'

from 05395; n f; {See TWOT on 1433 @@ '1433a'}

AV-breath 17, blast 3, spirit 2, inspiration 1, souls 1; 24

1) breath, spirit
1a) breath (of God)
1b) breath (of man)
1c) every breathing thing
1d) spirit (of man)

When one dies, their spirit goes back to God who gave it, at which point, one is no longer a living soul. This is why humanity is not immortal, and must receive the same from God as a gift of salvation.

Eccl 12:5..….. because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: 6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

When the dust returns to the earth, and the spirit back to God who gave it, there is no longer a living soul. If the soul were immortal, then the scriptures would not speak of living, or dying souls. Of course a soul would be living if souls were immortal, and of course they would never be spoken of as dying if they were immortal either. So why do the scriptures apply both to the soul?

Ps 6:2 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; for I am weak: O LORD, heal me; for my bones are vexed. 3 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long? 4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. 5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

In the above, David seeks to have himself, that is his soul delivered from death, because in the grave there is no remembrance of God, and he cannot give God thanks from the grave. How is this possible if the soul is immortal? If the soul were alive and in heaven with God surely it would be praising Him. Or if it were in hell, surely it would be cursing Him.

Ps 7:1 O LORD my God, in thee do I put my trust: save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me: 2 Lest he tear my soul like a lion, rending it in pieces, while there is none to deliver. 3 O LORD my God, if I have done this; if there be iniquity in my hands; 4 If I have rewarded evil unto him that was at peace with me; (yea, I have delivered him that without cause is mine enemy:) 5 Let the enemy persecute my soul, and take it; yea, let him tread down my life upon the earth, and lay mine honour in the dust. Selah.

Again what sense do the above verses make if a soul is not a living person, rather than some floating entity that lives apart from the body? Can a soul be torn to pieces? Will it end one ones life does? Yes it will.

Ps 30:2 O LORD my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me. 3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

How can a soul go to the grave? If it is immortal and goes to heaven or hell at death it should not be spoken of as dying and going to the grave. If on the other hand, it is a living being, then it could be said that ones soul goes to the grave when they die, it is it’s end. When life ends, it ends.

Ps 33:18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy; 19 To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine. 20 Our soul waiteth for the LORD: he is our help and our shield. 21 For our heart shall rejoice in him, because we have trusted in his holy name. 22 Let thy mercy, O LORD, be upon us, according as we hope in thee.

If our souls must be delivered from death, then they are not immortal. They are like us, they are us, when we are alive. When we are raised from the dead and given everlasting life, we will again be living souls.

Ps 40:13 Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me: O LORD, make haste to help me. 14 Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

Who can destroy a soul if it is immortal? It is not. When life ends, it ends, because when one is alive, they are a living soul.

Ps 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish. 13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah. 14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. 15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

Again the soul being associated with life, being redeemed from the grave. If it were immortal, this would not be so.

Ps 56:12 Thy vows are upon me, O God: I will render praises unto thee. 13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

Again, when God delivers the soul from death, one can walk in the light of the living. Makes no sense if the soul is immortal.

Ps 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them. 50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence; 51 And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:

God spared not the Egyptians souls from death, but killed them by the plagues. Their souls died, that is, they died. Obviously their souls were not immortal.

Ps 86:1 Bow down thine ear, O LORD, hear me: for I am poor and needy. 2 Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee. 3 Be merciful unto me, O Lord: for I cry unto thee daily.

Who needs their soul to be preserved if it is immortal?

Ps 89:47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain? 48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

Again, why wold a soul go to the grave at death if it is immortal and goes to heaven or hell at death? It is because the body goes into the grave at death, it is a dead soul, it is not living, because the body and the breath or spirit from God have separated.

Ps 116:7 Return unto thy rest, O my soul; for the LORD hath dealt bountifully with thee. 8 For thou hast delivered my soul from death,[/b mine eyes from tears, and my feet from falling. 9 [b]I will walk before the LORD in the land of the living.

Because his soul was delivered from death, he will walk before the Lord in the land of the living, he is a living soul.

Ps 119:174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight. 175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me. 176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

Makes no sense if the soul is immortal.

Isa 38:16 O Lord, by these things men live, and in all these things is the life of my spirit: so wilt thou recover me, and make me to live. 17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. 18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. 19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.

Because he was delivered from death, his soul was delivered from the pit of corruption, that is, the grave. The living, they are the ones who praise God. The dead cannot, because they are not living souls. All such nonsense if the soul is immortal.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

A prophecy concerning Christ. How can a soul be an offering? A sacrifice must die. If the soul is immortal, then it cannot be a sacrifice. Yet Christ poured out His soul unto death for our sins. He died the death we deserved, and when He did, He was no longer a living soul.

Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Is God a liar? If a soul is immortal it cannot die. God says the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

Again, the soul is identified with the person. If the person lives, the soul lives. If the person dies, the soul dies. A soul is a living person with a body combined with the breath, or spirit from God.

Matt 10: 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God will destroy both body and soul in hell. The soul is not immortal.

Matt 16: 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

How can one lose their soul, if their soul is immortal? Where could it go to get away from them.

Acts 2: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Christ was raised before His body saw corruption. Thus His soul was not left in hell, or the grave. He once again walked in the light of the living, that is, He became a living soul. This is our salvation. Our souls will not be left in the prison house of death, but we will once again be raised and receive the breath, or spirit of God in our spiritual bodies, and then we shall ever be with the Lord.

Acts 3: 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Every soul that will not hear and accept Christ, will be destroyed.

1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

No mistake about when it is that we receive immortality. It is at the last trump, when the dead are raised incorruptible, and immortal. None of the above makes sense if the soul is immortal.

Heb 10:38-39 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The soul needs saving, it is not immortal.

James 5:19-20 19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

The soul needs to be saved from death, it is not immortal.

Rev 16: 3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Souls can die. The souls of humans and animals can die. This is because a soul is a living being, when they die they are no longer a soul, or a dead one. This could not be possible if a soul were immortal.

Y. b. in C. Keith

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Sorry! The search criteria that you entered, immortality soul, does not yield any results in the KJV. You may wish to check Secondary Results on the tab above to expand the breadth of your search.

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(immortality AND soul)
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Psalm 56:13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: [wilt] not [thou deliver] my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

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soul AND death AND living)
occurs in 1 verses in the KJV (see Primary Results).
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Exd. 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it [is] holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth [any] work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Jdg 16:16 And it came to pass, when she pressed him daily with her words, and urged him, [so] that his soul was vexed unto death;

1Sa 20:3 And David sware moreover, and said, Thy father certainly knoweth that I have found grace in thine eyes; and he saith, Let not Jonathan know this, lest he be grieved: but truly [as] the LORD liveth, and [as] thy soul liveth, [there is] but a step between me and death.

Job 7:15 So that my soul chooseth strangling, [and] death rather than my life.

Psa 33:19 To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine.

Psa 56:13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: [wilt] not [thou deliver] my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

Psa 78:50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence;

Psa 89:48 What man [is he that] liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

Psa 107:18 Their soul abhorreth all manner of meat; and they draw near unto the gates of death.

Psa 116:8 For thou hast delivered my soul from death, mine eyes from tears, [and] my feet from falling.

Pro 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Jer 38:16 So Zedekiah the king sware secretly unto Jeremiah, saying, [As] the LORD liveth, that made us this soul, I will not put thee to death, neither will I give thee into the hand of these men that seek thy life.

Mat 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

Mar 14:34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.

Jam 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

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Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Job 12:10 In whose hand [is] the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

Job 33:30 To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living.

Psa 42:2 My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

Psa 56:13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: [wilt] not [thou deliver] my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

Psa 84:2 My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of the LORD: my heart and my flesh crieth out for the living God.

1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead [man]: and every living soul died in the sea

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2Sam 20:3 And David came to his house at Jerusalem; and the king took the ten women [his] concubines, whom he had left to keep the house, and put them in ward, and fed them, but went not in unto them. So they were shut up unto the day of their death, living in widowhood.

Job 30:23 For I know [that] thou wilt bring me [to] death, and [to] the house appointed for all living.

Psa 56:13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: [wilt] not [thou deliver] my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

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I repeat, if you can, please give me a verse in scripture where the words IMMORTAL and SOUL are used together, or where it says man has, or was created with an immortal soul.

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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:

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2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

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Rev 22, 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

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Sorry! The search criteria that you entered, immortality soul, does not yield any results in the KJV. You may wish to check Secondary Results on the tab above to expand the breadth of your search.

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I expanded the search:

quote: (immortality AND soul)
occurs in 0 verses in the KJV (see Primary Results).
Here are some additional combinations of your search terms.
(More Info)
See Primary Results
5 verses
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Note that for "immortality soul" I was referred back to the primary results, but for immortal (5) hits and soul (432) hits, I got references to the words separately. This clearly shows that in scripture, the words "immortality AND soul" as listed above do NOT appear any where in scripture.

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"Immortal" refers to the body

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And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

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In hell, satan will be looked upon as a man just like all the sinners who rejected Christ. And for the rest of these who are quoted below, death means 'separation from Christ'. It does not mean that one ceases to exist. Duh! So when it says that the soul dies, it means that it is in fact immortal, but is dead in separation from God

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Eze 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Eze 28:14 Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Eze 28:15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

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Carol you made this statement:

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"Immortal" refers to the body

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Would you please give me the scripture verse where it says that "immortal" refers to the body?

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Now no where in any of these verses does it say Satan will live forever, and if you think this is not about Satan, I ask you again, what man/sinner has ever been in Eden beside Adam and Eve? Adam was NOT a covering cherub, ever! He was not anointed by God, therefore the only other players in Eden were Satan and Eve, and this certainly does not describe Eve!!

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Sorry! The search criteria that you entered, immortality soul, does not yield any results in the KJV. You may wish to check Secondary Results on the tab above to expand the breadth of your search.

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Once again no one has answered my question. Where IN SCRIPTURE does it say that man has or was created with an "immortal soul". Everyone wants to tell me what they think, or what other men think, about the body, the soul, death, the grave, and a host of other things. Carol you quote from a dictionary written by men, not inspired by the Holy Spirit

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Are you not a man? Are YOU inspired by the Holy Spirit?

How do you know they were not inspired by the Holy Spirit? DO YOU NOT SEE ALL THEIR REFERENCES TO BIBLE VERSES?

Shall I listen to you, a man, or to Bible scholars? Hmmmm. Let me think. Hmmmm. Hmmmmm. I think I will listen to the Bible scholars.
 

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Posted by apilgrim2 (Member # 7182) on :
 

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Originally posted by TB125:
apilgrim2,
You cite this verse of scripture in defense of your commentary:

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2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

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But that is not what the Greek text says. There is no word for "scripture" in this text. The Greek word is "graphe", which is the word for "writing". The key phrase is "graphe Theopheustos", which is to be translated "writing which is inspired by God".

So your cited text does not support your commentary, and your "translation" is only another example of this problem of biblical interpretation that is being demonstrated in this thread when we depend upon "proof-texting" quotations from "translated" biblical documents.

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• Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

• 1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

• 1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

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O clifford

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Again the sarcasm is not necessary, but, yes I am a man, no I am not inspired by the Holy Spirit, and I am fairly confident that other men who wrote that dictionary are not inspired either, since Paul tells us in scripture when talking to the Ephesian saints, that he had not failed to tell them all that the Holy Spirit had revealed to him. Referring to verses, is not the same as divine inspiration, as I am sure you will agree.

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I know, you were speaking to carol. But I tell you that God has the same love for you as HE did for Paul. Therefore, He desires to reveal to you also, and not leave you to your own devices.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 

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If you look at the Hebrew/Greek interlinear text, you will find that the phrase "forever and ever", is a Greek idiom that means "until the end of the age". I urge you to check this out and see.

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