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Topic: Kinda of an embarrissing question
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saved1948
Advanced Member
Member # 5391
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posted
This is from RBC ministries
Is masturbation wrong?
The fact that the Bible doesn't specifically mention masturbation implies that we should approach this topic with sensitivity and caution. Most teenagers and single adults face an enormous struggle coming to terms with their sexual longings. Often the individuals who are most conscientious about their sexual feelings are the ones most likely to be tormented by unrealistic guilt. If we add to Scripture and weigh them down with even more unwarranted guilt, we become like the Pharisees and their legal experts. To protect holy principles, they added their own laws to Moses -- like fences around fences -- and in the process they heaped on others burdens that they themselves were not willing or able to bear ( Luke 11:46 ).
If we are honest, each of us will acknowledge the difficulty of keeping sexually pure in a permissive and sexually obsessed culture. We struggle to avoid either of two extremes. We must not surrender to the hedonistic spirit of the age, but we also want to avoid the spirit of asceticism and proud self-denial that has often marred the history of Christianity. Any belief that our sexual desires and feelings are evil in themselves is based in the Gnostic 1 denial of the goodness of the body and the natural world, not in the teachings of Scripture ( 1 Timothy 3:1-3 ).
On the other hand, we can't entirely discount the significance of habitual masturbation as a moral issue simply because it isn't mentioned in Scripture. One doesn't speak of "habitual" eating or "habitual" sleeping unless someone is eating or sleeping much more than they should. The fact that you realize you are caught up in a cycle of habitual behavior implies that you know that something is wrong.
All of life's pleasures have an appropriate context. When we eat entirely for pleasure, we become flabby and unhealthy. When we sleep much more than is needed for rest and bodily health, we become mentally and physically ill. Any misuse of legitimate pleasure has bad consequences.
The purpose of sexual pleasure is to nurture intimacy and unity between a husband and wife ( Genesis 2:24 ; Mark 10:6-8 ; Ephesians 5:28-32 ). Sexual desire is related to our deepest longings, our profoundest potential for intimacy and joy. It is like a fire. In the right circumstances a fire provides warmth, light, and food. In the wrong place it has enormous capacity for destruction.
The Bible doesn't provide a detailed discussion of human sexual issues. It tends to refer to sexual matters indirectly and with considerable delicacy. For example, even the term sex isn't used in the Bible, and the male and female sexual organs are referred to only indirectly, as is the act of intercourse. Even such a serious issue as pedophilia isn't mentioned specifically. It's likely, therefore, that although it isn't mentioned specifically in Scripture, habitual masturbation would be included under the categories of "lasciviousness," "impurity," and "uncleanness" (e.g. Leviticus 15:16-17 ; Mark 7:20-22 ; 2 Corinthians 12:21 ; Galatians 5:19 ; Ephesians 5:3,5 ; Colossians 3:5 ). 2
What are some of the illegitimate uses of sexual pleasure that we should be on guard against?
Sexual pleasure shouldn't serve merely as a "pressure valve" for the release of physical and emotional tension. There are more constructive, loving ways to release -- and even to harness -- our physical and emotional tension.
Sexual pleasure shouldn't be fed by sinful fantasy. Jesus made it clear that sexual sin isn't limited to physical act. Sin occurs equally in fantasy and imagination. There is a healthy imagination that leads to actions that honor one another, and a self-absorbed imagination that inclines us to use others for our own pleasure ( Matthew 5:27-30; 15:19 ). Sexual fantasy can be a destructive expression of rage, revenge, or lust. Such unhealthy fantasies can scar and harden our hearts even if they aren't carried out in the real world.
Sexual pleasure should never be a way we demand that God satisfy us immediately, on our terms. We should never expect sexual pleasure to compensate for our loneliness, disappointment, powerlessness, or sense of rejection. If we use it for these reasons, it is illegitimate.
Followers of Christ have been given freedom and forgiveness to love and honor one another, but not to be enslaved again to the flesh ( Romans 6:16 ). We have been given God's Spirit and wisdom so that we can understand that our bodies make good servants -- and cruel masters.
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John 3:16+6\[/p..................For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,that whoever believed in Him should not perish but have everlasting life
Posts: 52 | Registered: Dec 2005
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je_suis_aimee723
Community Member
Member # 5583
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crusader:
Ok were gone over sex, and if has been proven by everyone here that having it before your married is a sin. But what about masterbation? Is that also a sin?
I don't think it is wrong, unless it causes you to travel into a world of pornography and sex shops. Those kinds of things can definitley get outta hand. Staying pure is difficult especially with the vast amount of sexuality we see in advertising on a daily basis. If it is once in a while I don't think it is that big of a deal. But like anything else, if it becomes an obsession or an addiction it's wrong. In your heart you know if it is right or wrong. Make the decision based on your feelings.
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"We are what we pretend to be so be careful what you pretend to be" -Kurt Vonnegut
Posts: 10 | From: Boulder, Colorado | Registered: Mar 2006
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HisGrace
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Dr. Dobson's "medical" comment.
"First, let's consider masturbation from a medical perspective. We can say without fear of contradiction that there is no scientific evidence to indicate that this act is harmful to the body. Despite terrifying warnings given to young people historically, it does not cause blindness, weakness, mental retardation, or any other physical problem"
This is from a quote from an online article in which he tries to instruct parents to discuss masturbation with teenagers.
A former sex education is very concerned about Dr. Dobson's views. This person points out that his main concern is not to make teenagers feel condemned and guilty for masturbating and shouldn't feel guilty about any moral consequences.
He says parents should guard against obsessive behaviour in their teens, but doesn't give any guidelines to know when the behaviour has become too obsessive.
He said that there should be concern when it leads to pornography addiction. So at that point it is ok to condemn the acts and intervene. The issue should be dealt with before it reaches that state.
Ironically, in conclusion he says that the action has a capacity to follow into marriage and become a substitue for healthy sexual relations between and husband and wife.
Dr Dobson says "As for the spiritual implications of masturbation, I will have to defer to the theologians for a more definitive response"
If Dr. Dobson is not prepared to address the moral issues, he may be doing more damage by skirting around the subject.
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tenboom155
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Member # 4358
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posted
James Dobson says he believes that masterbation for a medical reason is not sin.
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My 2 Cents--pardon my poor spelling.
Posts: 52 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2005
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tenboom155
Advanced Member
Member # 4358
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posted
No way could I read all of that, but if no one has already posted this, James Dobson says that masterbation is not a sin if a male just needs to relieve himself for medical reasons. Fantasising is a sin.
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My 2 Cents--pardon my poor spelling.
Posts: 52 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2005
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HisGrace
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Welcome HisGrace4Us. I think we all would agree that sin is sin. However, if one certain topic is targeted for discussion, we are going to give our opinions on whether that certain area is a sin.
We have to go by what the Bible says about specific sins and leave it to the person and God, as you say. Just because we may quote certain scriptures, doesn't mean we are being judgmental. It is what God says - not us. It is our duty to proclaim the Word.
That being said, I think you will find that most members would be very understanding with any struggles you may have and would give you all of the necessary support you may need.
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HisGrace4Us
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Member # 4353
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posted
I am new to the boards. While reading over some of the old posts, it is very frustrating to see some that are very, very long. I think it would be great if there was a character limit on the amount one can post at one time. In regards to some of the posts on the boards regarding sexual temptation, I find some of them to be very judgmental. Sex before marriage is a sin; however, it is a struggle for those of us who have indulged in it in the past before we were saved and are now trying to follow God's Word, especially when we don't have a good support system of like-minded peers. I am not condoning anything here, merely making an analogy. Sin is sin, one is no better than the other, overeating, lying, fornication, jealousy, etc. All of these are sins, neither one is worse than the other. My point is that I feel many people come here for support and advice on how to keep their eyes on God when temptation rears its ugly head. I am one of those people and would like to feel comfortable in asking for advice and seeking support without being judged. That is up to God and God alone.
Posts: 13 | Registered: Feb 2005
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by SomeGuyInPA:
My wife and i are both saved but i am still quite confused on the subject of if it is ok for us to perform oral acts on each other.. neither of us have a problem with it, and what i mean by that is we both enjoy showing our love in this way.. but i have been wondering if it is wrong in gods eyes to do these things even with my wife?
sorry if this question is out of line but it is an honest question that i would really like an answer to.. and i couldnt think of any other way to ask it..
First of all welcome to CBBS, SomeGuy.
Ooooh I'm not sure about this one. Due to the fact that you are questioning if oral sex is wrong, maybe you are being quickened by the Holy Spirit. I heard a preacher once say that he thought it was wrong, but didn't really get into the reasons.
The question has to be asked. "Is such an act truly an expression of deep commitment and love, or simply an act of the flesh." We are supposed to love our spouses as the church. Maybe this is a false sense of intimacy.
Also, one partner may not feel comfortable doing it, and it could make friction between the couple.
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Favor Minded
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Hello!!
Embarassing - Well, ya know...
The answer is emphatically NO!! Of course it is fine.
The marriage bed is God ordained, and when you keep your eyes on him, your marriage and ALL the things with it are truly a blessing.
God ensures your have the strongest of desires for each other, and no matter how long, your desire and attraction to each other is powerful and strong. The longer you are together, the more powerful it becomes.
Nothing is wrong in Gods eyes behind closed doors within the marriage bed (I should qualify this with common sense - Obviously there are things that are immoral no matter what the circumstance, but what happens between married people is between God and them)
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SomeGuyInPA
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by whitesands777:
I mean, what is sexual immorality exactly ?
I hope this is not too graphic...there are certain acts that even seem sexually immoral to me even if it's done between two married people...I mean, do you guys know what I'm talking about ? Some people think that everything is o.k. in the context of marriage...
Is the prevention of conception between two married people sexually immoral ?
i have also been wondering the same thing..
***warning this may offend some people so please if you are easily offended dont read it****
My wife and i are both saved but i am still quite confused on the subject of if it is ok for us to perform oral acts on each other.. neither of us have a problem with it, and what i mean by that is we both enjoy showing our love in this way.. but i have been wondering if it is wrong in gods eyes to do these things even with my wife?
sorry if this question is out of line but it is an honest question that i would really like an answer to.. and i couldnt think of any other way to ask it..
Posts: 7 | From: PA | Registered: Jan 2005
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redkermit
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Member # 4059
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posted
Regardless of whether you view masturbation itself as a sin or not, it is just like anything else; if it becomes your God, then it is a sin. The same can be said for things such as gambling, drinking, etc.
Also, as someone stated previously (sorry, don't remember who, and don't want to re-read everything), it may start out innocent enough, but I gaurantee you it will lead to immoral things. Just like with drugs where it takes more to get high, masturbation will lead you to paths of unrighteousness, such as lustful thoughts and pornography, and possibly worse.
For me, it started with masturbation, and did just as I mentioned, it led to more and more lustful thoughts, and eventually to pornography. I envisioned doing much worse things in my head, but I thank God that through Him, I was able to overcome rather than act out on anything further. It is still a struggle today, but I am far from where I used to be.
I am not going to judge whether it is a sin or not, but I definitely feel it is something we should avoid doing.
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I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked. (Ps. 84:10b)
1 John 2:6
Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
Listen Online:
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whitesands777
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posted
quote:
Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
I've thought that these could apply in the context of marriage...But I've heard that this is speaking of homosexuality specifically.
Posts: 501 | Registered: May 2004
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HisGrace
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by whitesands777:
I hope this is not too graphic...there are certain acts that even seem sexually immoral to me even if it's done between two married people...I mean, do you guys know what I'm talking about ? Some people think that everything is o.k. in the context of marriage...
Is the prevention of conception between two married people sexually immoral ?
I think I know what you are talking about whitesands. I believe that God would want the expresson of love between a married couple to remain sweet and pure.
Any "diversions" could become lewd and in turn defile His original intent. Besides, one partner may be uncomfortable with such acts and therefore it would make a strain on the relationship.
I personally don't see anything wrong with birth control.
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Favor Minded
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quote:
Whitesands writes...
I hope this is not too graphic...there are certain acts that even seem sexually immoral to me even if it's done between two married people...I mean, do you guys know what I'm talking about ? Some people think that everything is o.k. in the context of marriage...
I suppose I could "imagine" what you are referring to but I cannot think of anything that would be considered immoral.
If your thoughts stray during, I would have to say there is something MISSING, a true, spirit filled marriage is one that is wholly acceptbale to the Lord and one that you will learn the true meanings of physical love.
God will keep everything as new, just like it was on the honeymoon, everytime...
As for immoral, nothing you could do would be immoral, within boundaries - I mean, one should not invite the neighbors, use magazines or videos, that sort of outside influence ya know...
but short of that, there really is nothing immoral, at all....
And when you come together and discuss fully the desires of each other - Then the sparks / fireworks really fly ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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posted
Obviously it would not have been better or God would have made you one; but he made you as you are.
It is tough, and there is great temptation in the world and I don't think we can resist it on our own power. I think HE has to do that in us and part of his doing that is in having us come to a Biblical view of sex and sexuality.
Men are not the only ones that struggle women have just never been in a place in society where we have been comfortable or it has been acceptable for us to speak of our struggles.
The trouble with the perversions of sex that the enemy has divised is that they keep us in bondage to our flesh by desensitizing us and leading us to seek greater sources of physical pleasure without ever really finding satisfaction. Satification does not come because it only comes in realizing that sex and our sexuality is a spiritual gift from God designed to bring him glory through the expression of it in a covenant marriage relationship. As we surrender to God's will even our sexual life, He begins to lead us and HE does not lead us into temptation but delivers us from evil.
When we find ourselves struggling with sexual temptations it is because we are looking at and listening to our flesh and we are not looking at and listening to HIM...not walking is the Spirit.
The more we try to ourselves avoid temptation, the more we are tempted, because our focus is on our flesh and not HIM.
What is moral and what is immoral I think the scriptures show us. Sex in marriage is acceptable to God, commanded by God.
Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
1 Corinthians 7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
Additionally there is a natural use of women sexually and things apart from that "natural use" are vile.
Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
I do also think that the attempts of man to control when life is brought into the world is wrong, though many many here will disagree. I see that God alone holds the right to ordain when a child is to be conceived.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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whitesands777
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Member # 3424
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This is all very complicated...Sometimes I wonder if it would be better to be born a eunuch...Or become one...Seriously, sometimes I wish that this was a temptation that I did not have to deal with because it is such a battle not only for me but many...Not just self gratification, but making sure you keep your thoughts pure when there is so much temptation in the world...
I mean, what is sexual immorality exactly ?
I hope this is not too graphic...there are certain acts that even seem sexually immoral to me even if it's done between two married people...I mean, do you guys know what I'm talking about ? Some people think that everything is o.k. in the context of marriage...
Is the prevention of conception between two married people sexually immoral ?
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RioLion
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"It is not about education, it is about relationship."
I could not agree more as that is what my relationship with Christ has taught me. We had someone in our bible distribution ministry that could not even read but I could get more use out of him than some of the more educated people in the organization. Howbeit, it was clearly a waste of time if you wanted to discuss moral or social issues with him.
As to education, one can readily tell the hillbilly preachers from those that have a formal education as you certainly will learn much more from the latter than the former. The former readily reaching their limits very fast. ![[spiny]](graemlins/spiny.gif)
In todays complex world, one has to study to show oneself approved not only to God but to those that have needs as well. The first thing that God does to one that He has called is to sent him off to school to learn more about the gospel and the complexities of dealing with people. The people you mentioned were self taught and in a much less complex society, even thro they lacked formal education they did well for what they had. ![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif)
As to the subject at hand, I rather doubt that you can convince anyone of your position. At least you admit that you know very little about the Roman Catholic view on some of these issues. But that is ok, as we are all someplace on the learning curve and maybe some day you will get up there where I am at. ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif)
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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No truce needed Sister WhiteEagle, we were never at war as far as I am concerned.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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Now there is a Roman Church view if I have ever heard one RIO!
It is not the number of years of education that one has that one has that enables us to know God's word. It is the Holy spirit and our hearts.
God is a rewarder of those who seek.
Not one of the Apostles had seminary educations!
A PhD in anything does not ensure a gift of teaching!!!!!!
DL Moody one of the greatest American Bible teachers of modern times had a 7th grade education in a one room school house.
What Moody was in American church history, Spurgeon was in England, and Spurgeon never went to theological school! Spurgeon was a great teacher and preacher, unafraid to challenge error in his own Baptist faith and in the Church of England. He founded an orphanage and a Pastor's School, and was without a doubt an annointed servant of Almighty God. But he did not go to theological school.
God did not establish a hierarchial system in which some were more greatly capable of understanding HIS word than the average man. This was the doing of the Roman Church who kept the scriptures out of the hand of the people for 1100 years!
The scriptures teach that the Holy Spirit will teach us ALL things. God is not a respector of persons and you can know as much of the scriptures as the greatest Bible scholar you can name, if you have a heart of desire and humbleness and prayer.
I am not a lone ranger christian. I simply choose to go to God first to learn the scriptures and not bring the paradigms of other men into my studies before I have learned what God has to say.
The great Hebrew and Greek Scholar William Tyndale who gave his life that we might have the scriptures in English said this to the clergy:
“If God spare my life, ere many years, I will cause a boy that driveth the plough to know more of the Scripture than thou dost.”
He believed that was possible and so do I. We are not to esteem one man over another, we are to esteem God. Yes, God through history has blessed us with many great Bible scholars and teachers and they are a benefit, but if you never had anything to read except the scriptures themselves and a right heart before God, you or any of us, could know as much as any Oxford Graduate about HIM. It is about relationship. It is not about education, it is about relationship.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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WhiteEagle
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Member # 3728
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posted
Truce, Linda!
You're probably correct, we will have to agree to disagee.
I do agree with Rio Lion about the body.
God did say "Be fruitful".
He certainly put that desire in there.
![[youpi]](graemlins/youpi.gif)
Jesus also told the Pharisees, that in heaven there in no marriage between people, and we will be like the angels, who neither marry or or given in marriage.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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RioLion
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"I don't consult Bible commentary. I am not interested in what man has to say about what God has said. I am interested only in what God has to say."
Bible Commentaries are written by those to whom has been given the ministry of teaching. To ignore them is simply to ignore the gifts God has given to the church. God truly expects us to learn from the teachers that He has given us.
Biblical scholars are very interested, as you are, in what God has to say and they are far more educated in His Word than most of us ever will be. We have much to gain from their works. It is foolish for one to put himself or herself above those who are far more educated and often far more godly when we are.
Without the teaching ministry of the church, you are basically a 'lone ranger' type of Christian, believing that you have whatever it takes to interpret the Scripture apart from the church and bound by your own prejudices and limited schooling. The view that anyone, including you, can go directly to God for all your answers is just not plausible. If you have ears that hear, He will direct you to His church.
Your interpretation of Onan is the Roman Church view; not that of Biblical scholars. And I really do not beleive you understand either the spiritual or natural side of human sexuality.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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posted
Hi WhiteEagle:
It is Ironic to me sometimes how two people can discuss the same subject and come from completely opposite sides seeing the same things. There is a poster that is here from time to time who is arminian in his beliefs, he would say that I am a Calvinist. I love him very much and he is my brother in Christ, but we are total opposites. He once said to me that Calvin and Jacobus Arminius believed the same things but that they approached the same subject from different views, one coming fromt he front the other from behind for example. I always wanted him to explain this; I am sure that John Calvin and Jacobus Arminius would have never agreed that they were of the same beliefs. Daniel never did find the time to share with me what he saw of this, but I have seen it here since that time in other issues and between other people.
As I read through your responses ironically I see this.
quote:
Linda, I agree that all these verses tell us to be pure in our bodies, and that we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit. I deleted some passages for the sake of length, but in marriage, I agree that it's God's plan for us, and that marriage is a holy thing to God. A covenant between a man an a woman. I think we are going to be "glorified" by our total walk with God, and not just in marriage, it's about every area of our life, not just marriage or not being married. Paul is describing how marriage is a "picture" of Christ and His Church.
I do not disagree with this at all. In fact it is my point that our TOTAL walk matters, but I see that we as a society try and make sexuality not part of the walk. I think we probably see the word "glorified" differently. I see that there is coming a time when we will receive "glorified" spiriutal bodies that will replace these ones of dishonour and flesh. But I see that as a manifestation of something that we are walking in now that is we are now through Christ walking in glory when we are walking in the Spirit. We are in a process of sanctification in which we are Becoming more and more Christlike, being transformed glory by glory into HIS glorious image...
2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord
I believe that our sexuality is a area where the enemy has kept us in bondage and what most of us have experienced in this area is inferior mediocrity in comparison to what God has for us, if we will do things his way and not ours.
quote:
Sin or evil aren't these the same?
You know this is a question I have had to ask myself in this discussion. I have to be honest and tell you that I have not studied this according to scripture and I will. But at this point, I do not know. I think perhaps not. I think it is more like all evil is sin, but not all sin is evil. Sometimes sin happens because of ignorance; the scripture also tells us that there were things Paul did that before the law called them sin, they were not sin. I think that evil is probably something greater than sin; that perhaps sin is the result or the evidence and evil the cause or the source of sin.
quote:
Linda, even if you aren't using Onan to show how masterbation is a sin in this passage, your new response shows you are still putting all the emphasis on the "sexual" aspects of this story, as being the point of the story. I strongly feel that in this story, Onan's behavior was punished because of the reasons I gave. It's about his rebellion to God. He refused to follow the law, and do his duty for his dead brother, to raise up children in his brother's name.
I do not disagree. All sin is about the condition of our heart and all sin is rebellion against God. All sin is the action that is come from the rebellion in our heart. I dont know if I listed them, but as I read that story I asked myself a list of questions...was it that he did not want to father children in his brother's name? Was it that he defiled Tamar? Was it that he tried to control life and this is God's job; was it that he placed no value in the seed God gave; Was it that dishonored his brother, his father and Tamar? I conclude that it was all of the above. Still the scripture says it was because of what he did that God was displeased.
Actually, this is interesting:
9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother’s wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.
10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.
Onan knew the seed should not be his???? that is interesting especially knowing that the seed that came would be the progeny of David come from Judah himself. But it was his action of spilling it that displeased God. It seems that GOd has a way that is HIS way and nothing else is acceptable.
As to the functions of our human body and hormones and such. We will likely not find harmony in our thoughts on these issues. You believe (I believe that you believe)that your nursing background has given you an understanding of things physical that I might not have. I also have a medical/science background. Infact, this knowledge was for me a kind of stumbling block as I had a very humanistic world view for most of my Christian walk. I believe that in me, God changed my worldview, my paradigm from that of a physical/biological one to a spiritual one.
In science, we can see and measure body chemicals; we see physical responses in the body as the result of chemical events in our bodies that cannot be controled, but that happen on their own. I do not believe that this is accurate. I do not see the world or our persons this way.
I do not see that we are physical beings with a spirit and soul. I also do not believe that we are Spirit beings that have a body and a have a soul. I believe that we are created by God as Triune beings and that sin has severed our triune person and caused to operate in bodies with the soul directing the show. I believe that re-birth changes that and we are once again directed by the Spirit, that is directly in communion with HIS Spirit and that we no longer function the same way as we used to.
I do not see that we can separate that which is physical from that which is spiritual. To do so is to walk in the flesh and that is sin.
Does the body have desires of its own? Yes, it does. I believe the scripture shows this; are the sex hormones the cause of this or the result I don't know. But what I do is this...if our soul (mind, will and emotions)are in charge of our show, then we will respond differently to the desires of our flesh, than we will if we are letting our Spirit direct the production. We are as Christians no longer directed by our soulman, but by our spirit man.
The question of this thread was is masturbation sin. I have answered that as best I could giving a scriptural view of God's intention in giving us the gift of sex. Those who have disagreed have done so based on medical/physical/flesh reasons. We will never agree because we argue apples are better than oranges. That is not true apples are different than oranges. Better depends on your paradigms. And our paradigms are different. But it is not our paradigms that are important; it is HIS. How does HE view things. We only have scripture to show us HIS view. HE does not read comentaries to determine HIS view and HE knows all about the hormones. He created them too. Still the scripture shows that sex is between a man and a woman in marriage. It does not show sex is for the alone. It does not show that sex is between a man and himself or a woman and herself, but between a man and a woman.
Do you think Jesus masturbated? Maybe some of you do. Maybe some of you will think yeah, but he was perfect. But I think that the scripture says that he who is perfect is now living in your imperfect body.
We could belabor this until the cows come home and not find harmony, this is because we view the world and our person's differently. But we need to each of us be sure that the way we view these issues is the way HE views them, and if that is so, we will be able to see our view in scripture.
RIO:
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Your view is simply not supported by any Bible commentary that I have ever consulted.
I don't consult Bible commentary. I am not interested in what man has to say about what God has said. I am interested only in what God has to say. If I read commentary, it is only to see how man views the scripture and to see if God might have revealed something that I have not seen. Then I would go back to scripture to see if what they see lines up. None of us has complete understanding we all see now in part; that includes Matthew Henry and Darby and whom ever else you might choose to read.
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I do not think that you understand human sexuality.
That is ok; I dont think you understand God view of human sexuality.
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What Onan employed was simply a means of primitive birth control commonly called 'coitus interruptus'; for the purpose of denying a family for his brother in accordance to ancient laws.
Yes he did and in doing so, he tried to control that which is God's to control and God slew him.
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There are no good reasons to believe that the 'spilling of seed’ was what was objected to by God.
There is one good reason....
Genesis 38:9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother’s wife, that he spilled it on the ground,(this is what he did) lest that he should give seed to his brother.(This is why he did it) And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also. (this is the good reason; the only good reaon I need.)
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If you wish to read something else into that story you can, but you probably will not find any support for that view in the non-Roman Catholic literature.
I do not need to read anything into the story;it is all there written. I also do not need any man's commentary to support it; God said it.
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Again, it is from the Roman Catholic viewpoint that this story is used to denounce masturbation - the sin being the 'spilling of seed' which almost always occurs in masturbation by males.
I am not familiar with the things that the Roman church uses to denounce masturbation. I have given this example to show that God values the seed. I believe he does. I used it to show that there is GOD's way and there is man's way.
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In regard to invasion of privacy by the Roman Church, masturbation is considered a mortal sin - a sin punishable by eternal damnation, unless it is confessed to a priest.
The only sin that will lead to damnation is the one not washed in the blood of Christ. Confession to a priest is not scriptural; we must confess our sins to GOD for them to be forgiven.
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The priest in turn, having knowledge gained from the confessional, is then in a position to blackmail, extorts or manipulate the behavior of the confessor. Pedophile priest often find as their victims, young teenagers that confess their guilt of masturbation to him.
The problems in the ROman church that have recently come to light are grievious. However, this general statement that implies that all priests use the confessional for this purpose is also a sin... it is the sin of bearing false witness.
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Linda used 1 John 3:9 to try to prove one of her points - "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for [His seed] remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."
Linda used this example to show that the spilling of seed is used in the scripture to illustrate sin.
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The NKJV capitalizes 'his' in 'His seed' while the Old KJV does not. The verse makes sense in the NKJV but really does not in the Old KJV.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
The KJV makes perfect sense! We do not need man to captialize and "H" to discern God in the scriptures. We need the power of the Holy Spirit. This scripture uses a physical event to illustrate a spiritual concept.
In the carnal man, his seed, which is the seed of his progeny, which is spilled spread sin...from Adam to Christ. (This is a physical concept)
When we are born of God, we are new creatures no longer possessing the seed of our human fathers but are become children of God. Our seed that is HIS seed, is not spilled out, because we no longer walk in flesh, but HIS seed remains within us allowing us to walk in Spirit. (This is a spiritual concept)
If you look at the rest of this text you can see something more...
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (you will note that Onan did not DO that which was righteousness, but also ONAN did not love his brother, else he would have done that which was under the law righteousness.)
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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RioLion
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Bat Elohim - "I don't really discuss sexual things with my son. It is a very hard subject for me to discuss because of my past. If this conversation was happening in face to face discussion, I would have turned bright red and walked out of the room a LONG time ago.".
I can understand the testifying of personal experiences, but any good educator would tell you that all you really need to do is to make available the proper literature to your child as he most likely will review it out of natural curiosity.
The old view was for parents not to discuss sex at all leading one to believe that sex was something dirty and that lead many to gross misunderstandings and disappointments in their own marriages.
To remedy those problems, we have sex education in the schools as the subject was really not taught in the home, and now we are faced with a multitude of moral issues not addressed in sex ed.
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RioLion
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By HFHS:I used Onan to show that the spilling of seed is a serious matter to God. I used Onan to show that sex for the purpose of sex is not ok with GOD. Our having sex is intended by God to bring HIM honor. By spilling his seed on the ground Onan brought dishonor to Tamar when he was commanded by his father Judah and the scriptures to bring her and his dead brother honor. He defiled her when he should have honored her. He committed fornication with her and not marriage. She returned to her father’s house a widow.
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What part of the above do you deny Rio?
Your view is simply not supported by any Bible commentary that I have ever consulted. I do not think that you understand human sexuality.
What Onan employed was simply a means of primitive birth control commonly called 'coitus interruptus'; for the purpose of denying a family for his brother in accordance to ancient laws. There are no good reasons to believe that the 'spilling of seed’ was what was objected to by God.
If you wish to read something else into that story you can, but you probably will not find any support for that view in the non-Roman Catholic literature. Again, it is from the Roman Catholic viewpoint that this story is used to denounce masturbation - the sin being the 'spilling of seed' which almost always occurs in masturbation by males. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
In regard to invasion of privacy by the Roman Church, masturbation is considered a mortal sin - a sin punishable by eternal damnation, unless it is confessed to a priest. The priest in turn, having knowledge gained from the confessional, is then in a position to blackmail, extorts or manipulate the behavior of the confessor. Pedophile priest often find as their victims, young teenagers that confess their guilt of masturbation to him.
Linda used 1 John 3:9 to try to prove one of her points - "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for [His seed] remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." The NKJV capitalizes 'his' in 'His seed' while the Old KJV does not. The verse makes sense in the NKJV but really does not in the Old KJV.
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WhiteEagle
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Also to you WhiteEagle, in the event that you think me to be one of those, of whom you “realize consider you to be evi”l. This is not my thought or consideration at all. I think that for whatever reason, you and I see God, the scripture, sexuality and probably the world and life in general is very different than the you see these things. I think that this colours the way we respond to the issues of life and the others with whom we interact as walk this road of life on earth. Apart from this I make no judgments about your person period.
Thank you for making that statement. Since this discussion has been intense at least from my side.
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Now, on to your question:
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Please give scriptures that say we are glorified by marital sex. I think you are adding concepts here too.
First of all I see that the scriptures teach that we are now vessels of honor crafted by THe Master Potter.
Our bodies are not ours but HIS, and we are to glorify God with them
1 Corinthians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.
In the Old Testament and in the New, the word “glorifed” means honour. In this scripture below (2 Corinthians 6:8 ), honor is the exact same word, translated “glorified” in John 7:39
The scriptures teach that we honour God, glorify God when we are obedient servants and walk in Spirit and in righteousness.
The scriptures teach that God honors, glorifies those who obey and serve him in obedience and righteousness...
The giving of one’s self in marital sex is serving him in obedience. (1 Corinthians 7:1-5)
John 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
The scriptures teach that marriage is honorable in all things. The marriage bed not defiled. That which is NOT defiled IS holy and honorable and glorious.
Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled:
Giving ourselves to become one flesh in marriage is a commandment. In doing so we honor our husband/wife. It is a form of worshiping or reverencing God.
Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
This scripture shows us that the satisfying of our flesh is not wisdom....
Colossians 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
The scripture speaks of sexual expression in the marriage bed being honorable. In no other place is sexual expression said to be honorable. It does not matter that masturbation is not listed specifically, because ONLY sex between a man and wife are honorable. Masturbation is sex between no one; it is between you and you. You may not be your own wife or husband. It takes a man and a woman.
The scripture says if you cannot put your flesh under control then marry. It does not say take care of it your self. And in Col 2:23, it says give no honor to satisfying of the flesh.
Linda, I agree that all these verses tell us to be pure in our bodies, and that we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit. I deleted some passages for the sake of length, but in marriage, I agree that it's God's plan for us, and that marriage is a holy thing to God. A covenant between a man an a woman. I think we are going to be "glorified" by our total walk with God, and not just in marriage, it's about every area of our life, not just marriage or not being married. Paul is describing how marriage is a "picture" of Christ and His Church.
QUOTE]
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Here is where you use Onan as proof that masterbation is evil:
I did not use Onan as proof masturbation is evil; those are your words not mine. I did not say masturbation is evil; I said masturbation is sin, because it is not sex between a husband and a wife, the coming together as one flesh.[QB] quote:
Sin or evil aren't these the same?
[QB] quote:
I used Onan to show that the spilling of seed is a serious matter to God. I used Onan to show that sex for the purpose of sex is not ok with GOD. Our having sex is intended by God to bring HIM honor. By spilling his seed on the ground Onan brought dishonor to Tamar when he was commanded by his father Judah and the scriptures to bring her and his dead brother honor. He defiled her when he should have honored her. He committed fornication with her and not marriage. She returned to her father’s house a widow.
[QUOTE]You've missed the point of the whole story, which has less to do with sex, than with the condition of Onan's heart. He didn't want to have children that wouldn't carry HIS name. He didn't want to HONOR his dead brother. He scammed Tamar, by going into her; as if the consummate this duty, and then withdrew and ejaculated on the ground.
No, I did not miss the point; that is my point. You are just so convinced that I think masturbation is evil that you failed to read my point, which you have just confirmed in this quote above. God gave us sex; he gave it to a husband and a wife; the reason he gave it and the reason he commanded that a woman and a man become one flesh is this...Ephesians 5:30 because members we are of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones;
Linda, even if you aren't using Onan to show how masterbation is a sin in this passage, your new response shows you are still putting all the emphasis on the "sexual" aspects of this story, as being the point of the story. I strongly feel that in this story, Onan's behavior was punished because of the reasons I gave. It's about his rebellion to God. He refused to follow the law, and do his duty for his dead brother, to raise up children in his brother's name.
As the story goes on in Genesis, it seems that Onan's whole family were neglecting Tamar, and not doing what was right according to the Law, by honoring her as the widow. Onan "spilling his seed" was an act of dishonor toward his dead brother, to Tamar, whom he defrauded, and to God.
It was the intent of his heart that was evil, not the act of "spilling his seed". I'm certain that many godly people have spilled their seed as a means of birth control, God still allows their bodies to continually make more semen.
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You asked this of me and I am sorry I do not understand what you are asking me?
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Are you saying it's OK to spill the seed on the marriage bed? If so, it's a contradiction of everything else you've written.
Forgive me, but in your previous post I seems you wrote that since the marriage bed was "undefiled" it was the only place to spill ones' seed.
To address the normal functions of the human body:
One can have feelings of sexual desire, naturally, without even trying. It's your normal hormones working. Men seem to have this more often, then most women. Can we control it? Yes we can, but we have to be mature, and not all have reached such maturity. We are NOT animals, yet we do share many things with animals, since we are flesh. We need to eat, we need to use the bathroom. Sexual desires are part of our human body. I just know from experience when I was younger, that if one takes care of it oneself, when one is single, the desire does leave for a while, so one doesn't have to focus on that.
I mean I was 28, divorced with 2 young babies, and I had to work 40 hours a week, and care for the needs of 2 young children, I didn't have time to think about "lust" or desires of the flesh, and didn't try to stimulate this area, yet,guess what, it happens, anyway. Unwanted, not sought for, but just like other bodily processes, one can't pray away what one's body is going to crave.
One doesn't have the leisure or time to rationalize that perhaps my lonliness contributed to these feelings, one needs to address the isssues then and there. I don't see that as a sin, as the sin would have been for me to go seek some man and then marry him to make it correct. My judgement is seeking the right man wouldn't have been very good, as I would be looking out of the wrong reasons, and jumped into a relationship for the wrong reasons.
I can pray it away now, and plus I'm married anyway, so it's not an issue, but not all have reached this level. Plus I'm older now, not in my prime child-bearing years, yet I can easily remember the pull of these desires when I was in my 20's and 30's as being quite a force to contend.
If one is single and doesn't believe they are allowed to "take care of it" themselves, the desire can become a Problem, as their thoughts turn to ways in which to consummate the issue, and it won't be by marriage, unless they happen to be close to that decision anyway.
Again, I view the sole issue of masterbastion, as one means to stay pure, while one is single. It's also important to keep in prayer and close to the Lord, and not elevate the practice to an ends to the means. Actually if one is close to the Lord, one will not feel the need to even do this very often, but to keep people from this release until they are stronger is an undue burden.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
Hi WhiteEagle and RIO:
I will address each of your respective questions/and or comments in this one post. Please know that I answer you not to try and convince either of you of anything. It is neither in my power nor is it my desire to convince anyone of anything. I answer only that you might know why I say the things I have said.
Also to you WhiteEagle, in the event that you think me to be one of those, of whom you “realize consider you to be evi”l. This is not my thought or consideration at all. I think that for whatever reason, you and I see God, the scripture, sexuality and probably the world and life in general is very different than the you see these things. I think that this colours the way we respond to the issues of life and the others with whom we interact as walk this road of life on earth. Apart from this I make no judgments about your person period.
Now, on to your question:
quote:
Please give scriptures that say we are glorified by marital sex. I think you are adding concepts here too.
First of all I see that the scriptures teach that we are now vessels of honor crafted by THe Master Potter.
2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
Our bodies are not ours but HIS, and we are to glorify God with them
1 Corinthians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.
In the Old Testament and in the New, the word “glorifed” means honour. In this scripture below (2 Corinthians 6:8 ), honor is the exact same word, translated “glorified” in John 7:39
2 Corinthians 6:8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;
John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
The scriptures teach that we honour God, glorify God when we are obedient servants and walk in Spirit and in righteousness.
The scriptures teach that God honors, glorifies those who obey and serve him in obedience and righteousness...
John 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
The giving of one’s self in marital sex is serving him in obedience. (1 Corinthians 7:1-5)
Further, Honor is of God. When we honor a man and the man is truly honored, the honor he receives is OF God, though it comes through us. Apart from God there is no honor or glory.
John 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
The scriptures teach that marriage is honorable in all things. The marriage bed not defiled. That which is NOT defiled IS holy and honorable and glorious.
Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled:
Giving ourselves to become one flesh in marriage is a commandment. In doing so we honor our husband/wife. It is a form of worshiping or reverencing God.
1Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
As Christians, everything we do is a form of worshiping God. It is done to bring HIM glory and honor. It is done with thanksgiving and for the sole purpose of giving him glory and honor.
1 Thessalonians 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
This scripture shows us that the satisfying of our flesh is not wisdom....
Colossians 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
The scripture speaks of sexual expression in the marriage bed being honorable. In no other place is sexual expression said to be honorable. It does not matter that masturbation is not listed specifically, because ONLY sex between a man and wife are honorable. Masturbation is sex between no one; it is between you and you. You may not be your own wife or husband. It takes a man and a woman.
The scripture says if you cannot put your flesh under control then marry. It does not say take care of it your self. And in Col 2:23, it says give no honor to satisfying of the flesh.
quote:
Here is where you use Onan as proof that masterbation is evil:
I did not use Onan as proof masturbation is evil; those are your words not mine. I did not say masturbation is evil; I said masturbation is sin, because it is not sex between a husband and a wife, the coming together as one flesh.
I used Onan to show that the spilling of seed is a serious matter to God. I used Onan to show that sex for the purpose of sex is not ok with GOD. Our having sex is intended by God to bring HIM honor. By spilling his seed on the ground Onan brought dishonor to Tamar when he was commanded by his father Judah and the scriptures to bring her and his dead brother honor. He defiled her when he should have honored her. He committed fornication with her and not marriage. She returned to her father’s house a widow.
quote:
You've missed the point of the whole story, which has less to do with sex, than with the condition of Onan's heart. He didn't want to have children that wouldn't carry HIS name. He didn't want to HONOR his dead brother. He scammed Tamar, by going into her; as if the consummate this duty, and then withdrew and ejaculated on the ground.
No, I did not miss the point; that is my point. You are just so convinced that I think masturbation is evil that you failed to read my point, which you have just confirmed in this quote above. God gave us sex; he gave it to a husband and a wife; the reason he gave it and the reason he commanded that a woman and a man become one flesh is this...Ephesians 5:30 because members we are of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones;
:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 this secret is great, and I speak in regard to Christ and to the assembly;
You asked this of me and I am sorry I do not understand what you are asking me?
quote:
Are you saying it's OK to spill the seed on the marriage bed? If so, it's a contradiction of everything else you've written.
RIO:
You said this:
quote:
helpforhomeschoolers - in my apologetic studies, your view and use of Onan as a means of 'proving' that masturbation is evil, is one that the Roman Catholic Church uses to induce guilt into their teenagers. In that way, they are able to invade the private and personal lives of people; even appropriating enough facts to blackmail, extort or manipulate the behavior of their own people.
Rio: I never used Onan to “prove” masturbation is evil. I never said masturbation is evil. I have explained again above what I used Onan to show. I will repeat it here that it is clear:
quote:
By HFHS:I used Onan to show that the spilling of seed is a serious matter to God. I used Onan to show that sex for the purpose of sex is not ok with GOD. Our having sex is intended by God to bring HIM honor. By spilling his seed on the ground Onan brought dishonor to Tamar when he was commanded by his father Judah and the scriptures to bring her and his dead brother honor. He defiled her when he should have honored her. He committed fornication with her and not marriage. She returned to her father’s house a widow.
What part of the above do you deny Rio?
Also: I do not approve of much that I can think of that the Roman Church does; but I do not know that I understand these things you say that they do...invading personal lives etc... Nor, do I see it’s relevance to this discussion.
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I think that you would be hard pressed to find a commentary that supports your view that Onan was guilty of masturbation.
I think you would be hard pressed to find my stating my view was that Onan was masturbating. I would appreciate you not state what my view is unless you are certain that is what I have said.
This is my view {highlights only) as posted in the post that you have used to bear false witness against me:
HFHS VIEW quote:
For spilling his seed on the ground God slew Judah's second born son. Man's seed is for God's purpose. God does not like it being spent irreverently. Sex is a holy thing; created and given to man and woman by God to be shared.It is a physical expression of a spiritual principle that was intended to profit and to edify. When sex occurs as God has intended it, God is glorified. Satan has perverted sex; Satan has told us a lie that we have natural (flesh)urges that must be satisfied whether or not we have a spouse with which to have sex,
I think that you would be hard pressed to find scripture that proves any of the above is not true. I am open to hear what you might have found though.
Mentor’s Riddle says;
quote:
The Body does what the body needs to do one way or the other. I have been waiting for someone to say that.
Can you show me this scripturally? If the body will just do what it wants all on its own, then I wonder what we are continually told to keep our bodies under subjection? Why would I put down the desires of my flesh if my body will just satisfy them in my sleep?
How ironic that the scripture would say this:
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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MentorsRiddle
Advanced Member
Member # 2108
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Rio- You are absolutly correct. The Body does what the body needs to do one way or the other. I have been waiting for someone to say that, and you finally did ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Good job.
The hormones released into the body causes the mind to function on a different level, some could say almost instinctual, than they normally would.
If the semen is not released from the body medical delimas will result from a build up of this substance.
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With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.
Posts: 1337 | From: Arkansas | Registered: Sep 2003
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RioLion
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helpforhomeschoolers - in my apologetic studies, your view and use of Onan as a means of 'proving' that masturbation is evil, is one that the Roman Catholic Church uses to induce guilt into their teenagers. In that way, they are able to invade the private and personal lives of people; even appropriating enough facts to blackmail, extort or manipulate the behavior of their own people. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
I think that you would be hard pressed to find a commentary that supports your view that Onan was guilty of masturbation.
It is best to consult Christian doctors on how the human body functions. They will tell you - and I can do more digging into the medical literature - that particularly for men, there must be a release as semen builds up in the body. ![[type]](graemlins/type.gif)
What you also have is a hormonal release into the blood stream that affects the mind sexually; and that kind of thing is really hard to control if not impossible. If one does not have sexual intercourse, the release will be while you are sleeping if not by masturbation. ![[zzzzzz]](graemlins/20.gif) ![[1zhelp]](graemlins/1zhelp.gif)
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WhiteEagle
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I realize that I'm already considered "evil" by some, but at least my own children were able to talk with me about sexual issues, as I kept the process open to teaching them about their bodies, and what is right and wrong according to the scriptures, without giving them unwarranted guilt.
Perhaps my nursing experience and comfort in having learned about the normal processes of the human body helped me to not feel uncomfortable about sexual issues.
Anyway, I thank God, that my own children were able to come and talk to me about "private" issues when they were teens.
My daughter is 24, unmarried and never has been pregnant. She has a boyfriend. My son also is 20, and single and has not fathered a child out of wedlock.
I'm not writing to "brag", but to testify that we should not be embarrasssed by Sex, and if we are, we need to get educated, and "Buck UP" for the sake of our children, as they will learn about this issue, but it won't be from you.
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WhiteEagle
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Linda I've gone back to one of your earlier posts on this subject, which in which you use the Example of Onan in Genesis 38 as proof that the Bible is saying that Masterbation is wrong.
Your quotes will get there, but as I looked over that post I saw some other things, so I answer these as they go.
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Perhaps you better go back and read my first post Dale.
The first thing folks do is claim that all things are legal. Paul says that where there is no law there is no trangression of the law. We are not under law, but grace. So people claim grace.
To which Paul says all things are legal, but all things do not edify or profit.
But what is the two commands that Jesus gave? Love your God with all your person (body soul spirit)(mind heart body)(love your neighbor as yourself)(love hath none greater than he who will lay down his life for his brother){QUOTE][QB]
Favor-Minded wrote his only response about this issue on Nov.17 or 18 in this thread, and I find His views to be something I can agree with both spiritually and scripturally. You may want to go back and read what Favor-Minded wrote, especially his first paragraph. The Pharisees "added" things to God's Laws and placed impossible burdens upon the people"
In this thread we are discussing masterbation, not pornography, not adultry, no fornication. Most here think that if one masterbates that they are also looking at porn, or actively "lusting" after someone else. While that can be the case many times, it is not the case with people who are striving to be pure, and who still "suffer" the pangs of desire through no other sin of their own, and many occasionally release this "tension" themselves, so they can go on, and not start to begin lusting. Sometimes the physcial reality of hormones comes upon one, and they crave sex, but have not tried to lust, but once that physical feeling comes upon them, it starts the process of Lust, and How to I get this fulfilled?
Paul wrote to Timothy, "drink a "little" wine for your stomach's sake." We know drunkeness was a sin, yet Christ himself drank real "wine".
He was called a glutton and a drunk by the Pharisees.
The parallal, is calling a simple act a sin, that the Bible NEVERS describes. You add all other kinds of things to that act, such as porn and lust, and adultry, and have put an impossible burden on young Christians, or even unbelievers who would strive for sexual purity.
The basic teaching of the New Testament regarding many things, is Moderation. Sexual Immorality is defined very explicitly by Paul, and these are things we need to avoid and not sin by doing them.
[QUOTE][QB]In sex, we give our bodies to our partner that the compliment of us that is our partner be glorified. In doing that we too are glorified. And God is also Glorified.
Please give scriptures that say we are glorified by marital sex. I think you are adding concepts here too.
Marital sex is a picture of Christ's Union with His Church. It expresses the intimitacy of that relationship, and becoming ONE. As Christ in Us the Hope of Glory. We are blessed when we follow God's will in this regard. I think being glorified is over the top.
Here is where you use Onan as proof that masterbation is evil:
quote:
IF you think God does not take this issue seriously, I would have you look at something...
THis is a story from Genesis 38....
6 And Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, whose name was Tamar.And Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him.
8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother’s wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother’s wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.
10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.
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For spilling his seed on the ground God slew Judah's second born son.
Man's seed is for God's purpose. God does not like it being spent irreverently.
You've missed the point of the whole story, which has less to do with sex, than with the condition of Onan's heart. He didn't want to have children that wouldn't carry HIS name. He didn't want to HONOR his dead brother. He scammed Tamar, by going into her; as if the consummate this duty, and then withdrew and ejaculated on the ground.
God was displeased with his Rebellion and Pride, and Selfish heart. This story is NOT even about masterbation, unless you envision he went into Tamar and did that in front of her. If you do, then it's not described that way. Other times in the Bible if a man went into a woman, they were having sex together.
quote:
Only the marriage bed is undefiled by the spilling of seed. The marriage is consumated in the union of sex.
Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
God even uses this analogy of the spilling of seed to show the child of God verses the one who sins...
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him:
Are you saying it's OK to spill the seed on the marriage bed? If so, it's a contradiction of everything else you've written.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Redkermit: you are right and even if the shower never becomes an issue, there is always he possibility that someone would tease that way not knowing anything about his anatomy. Hence the importance of teaching our children Christ Esteem. We are ok because of the one who lives in us who is perfect.
Bat Elohim: I too was abused as a child and I understand your being uncomfortable. Each of us learns to cope with this kind of thing in different ways; but once the coping is done and we move to a place in our lives where we do have control over our bodies that we did not have as children, we move from coping into forgiveness and healing and we learn a wonderful thing about God and that is that All things work together for good in those who are called according to his purpose. The enemy meant to destroy you through abuse; but he did not. Yes damage was done, but none that is too great for God to deal with and GOD takes that damage and he turns it into something that equips you to be a blessing to others and to bring Glory to him. Every stripe we every bear at the hands of the enemy no matter how big or how deep is an opportunity for God to do something fantastic, and awesome, and glorious. When we enter into HIS rest, we can walk in wholeness now; we no longer have to wear those scar in fear and uncomfortableness, they no longer have to bring us shame; instead we can wear them boldly as a testamony of what God has done in us. You will note that I did not tell you the scars go away, they don't, even Jesus bore in his hands the marks of the nails; but he was a new person and we are risen in him now. Our scars are there but they have new meaning, victorious meaning through Christ. I hope you will pray about that. I will pray for you and that regard, but I beseech you sister, don't let the enemy have any victory over you that is not his. Don't let your scars keep you from talking to your son about hard things, and don't let them keep you from being comfortable in your own body. God gave you that body and the enemy abused it for a time, but the enemy can't take more than a pound of flesh, you are so much more than that, and so much more precious to God than that. Don't look at what the enemy has done, Look at Christ, and see what God is doing, it will give you a very different perspective on those scars.
God Bless,
Linda
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redkermit
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That's understandable, and I'm sure the last person he wants to discuss sexual issues with is his mother!
But, I guess I'm just saying to be available to him, let him know you're there in case he does need to talk about it. And, just in general, be supportive and help keep his self-esteem up.
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I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked. (Ps. 84:10b)
1 John 2:6
Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
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redkermit
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Dear Sister BatElohim:
There is no one in school that ever needs to know the size of your son's p-enis that they could use it to tease him.
I guarantee you that God has a wonderful young woman out there somewhere who was created by God just for him, to be his helpmeet in life and if they honor God with their lives and their bodies while they wait to find each other, I have no doubt that the size of his p-enis will not be an issue.
While this is true, and I appreciate your insights (here and throughout the message board), it is still a very difficult and intensely personal issue to deal with. Without saying too much, let's just say I can identify with Bat Elohim's son. It can be tough at school, especially if you're in a situation where you are required to take a gym class, which requires showering. So, yes, no one at school needs to know, but it can happen.
It doesn't help that society places such an emphasis on this issue. It can become very crippling psychologically when trying to develop a relationship with a woman. Just keep praying for him, and keep the lines of communication and support open, which I'm sure you are. And reiterate what Linda posted:
"I guarantee you that God has a wonderful young woman out there somewhere who was created by God just for him, to be his help(mate) in life and if they honor God with their lives and their bodies while they wait to find each other, I have no doubt that the size of his p-enis will not be an issue."
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I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked. (Ps. 84:10b)
1 John 2:6
Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Dear Sister BatElohim:
You made a decision based on a right heart before God and you have to know that God will honor you for it.
Rear your son to be a Godly man, teach him to pray for the woman that God has out there just for him; teach him to value his body and his sexuality and to save his virginity for the woman that GOD has just for him. Teach him to pray that she will do the same. She is out there now, even though he does not know it. Rear him to pray for her as he grows up. Then when she enters his life, he will know she is the one. He will have been praying for her all his life.
There is no one in school that ever needs to know the size of your son's p-enis that they could use it to tease him.
I guarantee you that God has a wonderful young woman out there somewhere who was created by God just for him, to be his helpmeet in life and if they honor God with their lives and their bodies while they wait to find each other, I have no doubt that the size of his p-enis will not be an issue.
And don't you go thinking that you have done anything that he should hate you for when he gets older. You have not. Do not approach your decison from the enemy's angle and don't ever let your son believe that he is anything except perfectly and wonderfully made by God and he has everything he needs to serve God and live a blessed life.
God bless you and your son richly and may he grow to be a mighty man of God, a Godly husband and father and may you be blessed with wonderful grandchildren to love and cherish.
In Christ,
Linda
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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redkermit
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I'm no doctor, but that is some of the strangest advice I have ever heard. I can't say as though I've ever researched the issue specifically, but I do remember reading on the topic before in the Dr. Gott syndicated columns. From what I can remember, his medical opinion was that there is nothing that can be done to "make" it grow/develop more.
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I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked. (Ps. 84:10b)
1 John 2:6
Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
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MentorsRiddle
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The way I see it is this:
If you have to ask if something is wrong, then chances are it usually is...
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With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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WhiteEagel:
quote:
Plus that guy in the Old Testament wasn't masterbating, he was having relations with his borther's wife at the time he decided to "spill" his seed. His was a sin of Rebellion toward God and The Law. He was already indilging his flesh.
I think you might want to spend some time in the old testament. Judah's 2nd son was told to take the wife of his DEAD brother, by his father Judah. THe scriptures commanded that the brother take the wife of his brother and raise children for His brother in his brother's name; this was important to preserve the lineage of each member of the family and the inheiritance that was his, particularly that of the first born son. THis woman's dead husband was a firstborn son, and her brother in law taking her in marriage after her husband's death would have insured that her son receive the blessing of the firstborn, as their children would be raised in the name of the dead brother. As it was, this woman did have a son, two sons, which she got through trickery against Judah, and one of those sons was Pharez, from whose line DAVID came...
Deuteronomy 25:5 ¶ If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband’s brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband’s brother unto her. {her husband’s…: or, her next kinsman}
6 And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel.
As to your comments about the physical and spiritual aspects of sex, I am sorry that you miss the point.
The point is that we are not just physical beings but also spiritual. When we try to live in the physical without adressing the spiritual we do not live as God designed us to live and we miss the glory that God intended us to have.
This is exactly what sin did. It caused us to walk in our flesh apart from our spirit that is in communion with God. This created a man that was dead though he walked and lived.
We are supposed to now be new creatures.
Of course we have hormones and chemicals that allow us physical pleasure in sex. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Exactly pain and problems go with sexual IMMORALITY. This is by your own admission because sex is a spiritual as well as physical experience. That should tell us something. God intended sex to be between two people in a covenant relationship. When that relationship is not present neither should sex be. That includes sex with yourself. God did not design us to have sex with ourselves. If you can't see that or don't want to see that, this is fine, but it does not make it untrue.
As to the Song of Soloman, I do not know how anyone could read that and not see it as both physical and spiritual.
Your comments about beatings in the day of Martin Luther would be funny if they were not so sad. Why must one beat ones self to put down flesh? Because by our own power we can't put down flesh... we need grace, we need HIM, we need HIS power. But we will never realize his power walking in the flesh...his power is in Spirit.
Lastly, about legalism. Leagalism seeks to save ones self through the works of the flesh, his own flesh, apart and without the Spirit of God.
Nothing in this discussion has been about works of the flesh except those things spoken by people condone walking in it.
Respectfully,
Linda
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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HisGrace
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We should never be offended by someone quoting scriptures Study. Each one of us aught to let them examine our hearts and see if the Lord speaks to us in any area of our lives.
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Study
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I have been reading this trend for awhile now. Is it possible that you guys are offending your body, which is the temple and body of Christ. You might want to try the following verses for relief I think they might apply.
Matthew 5
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Matthew 18
7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye , rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Mark 9
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
All in love.
Don't blast me now!
God Bless
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http://www.biblenotebooks.com
The book no Christian should be without!
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RioLion
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A medical doctor once told me that it one does not have a sexual release through intercourse or masturbation, then it most likely will be released in your sleep. That would indicate to me that it is really something natural to the human body.
For those that overindulge in masturbation, it is apparently that like drinking alcohol, one can be abusive and simply harm oneself. I rather doubt that this kind of harm really happens too often and really is a problem that must be dealt with.
A solution to the problem, if one has one, is to develop self discipline which over a period of time, one will be able to control the kind of impulses that manisfest themselves in such behavior. In that way, purity of mind may be achieved and less feeling of guilt associcated with it.
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Miguel
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quote:
Originally posted by Crusader:
Ok were gone over sex, and if has been proven by everyone here that having it before your married is a sin. But what about masterbation? Is that also a sin?
Crusader cruise around this scriptures;
And the Lord God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
Genesis 2:18
And if any man's seed of copulation go out from him, then he shall wash all his flesh in water, and be unclean until the even. And every garment, and every skin, whereon is the seed of copulation, shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the even.
Leviticus 15:16-17
The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jeremiah 17:9
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Matthew 5:28
For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from [their] mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive [it], let him receive [it].
Matthew 19:12
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
Romans 7:18
[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:1
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Romans 8:5
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Romans 8:8
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Romans 8:13
Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof].
Romans 13:13-14
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1 Corinthians 6:19
[This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Galatians 5:16-17
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Galatians 5:24
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Galatians 6:8
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Ephesians 2:3
Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
2 Timothy 2:22
For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1 John 2:16
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
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WhiteEagle
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I think the legalistic advice given here is probably better than SaltPeter.
Linda, Sex is not only a spirtual experience, it's a physical experience which involves hormones, and chemical that God put in our bodies to enjoy the experience.
Is Song of Solomon only discussing a spiritual experience?
When we join to another we are joined spiritually, and that's why there is so much pain and problems that go with sexual immorality.
I can't believe I have to point this out, but masterbation is not joining physically with another. It's the physically joining of two individuals that is called fornication.
Can anyone here live up to Linda's standards, for sexual purity? I mean from the time one is in puberty to when one dies? I don't even recall this mentioned in all the Old Testament Laws, as being something not to do.
Linda, I know you are writing what would be the most perfect way to go, but it's not realistic for many people, and it's not always going to be accomplished that way.
Should we go back to the days of Self-Beatings, like Martin Luther?
Plus that guy in the Old Testament wasn't masterbating, he was having relations with his borther's wife at the time he decided to "spill" his seed. His was a sin of Rebellion toward God and The Law. He was already indilging his flesh.
I just can't believe how legalistic this subject has become.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
sex is about our whole being and not just our flesh. But we need to renew our minds.
This is another crucial key towards guidance as to what to do and not to do when a partner is absent. We have to renew our minds to the fact that true love is a package deal, not just fiery moments. In that way if we look at our beings as a whole, the flesh won't have a chance to be totally consumed.
We can step back and know that God ls in complete control and we won't have to be afraid that we will be overcome with nothing but passion.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Laurie: I too hope that no one is offended by the boldness of your question, but I think it is a great question, and important question, and a question that caused me to pause and to think and to pray.
My first blush response, was go for it; it is your husband. But then I was reminded of this scripture that I posted regarding Judah's 2nd son. That led me to think about why this was displeasing to God. Was it that he spilled seed? Was it that he did not want to give his seed to his brother's legacy? Was it that in spilling his seed he sought only that which is physical in the laying with his dead brother's wife? Was it all of the above?
Then I read the wonderful post by His Grace. I really think that she did hit the nail on the head. We have to seek HIS Face and not focus so much on the flesh.
If sex really is to be a spiritual experience about an expression of love and the giving of ones self in complete abandon to our spouse then is this scenario one that fills that experience? Is the mindset that led to it a right mindset? Or is it our flesh that should not be our focus at that time? If it is our flesh, then would it be better to move on and put our flesh under submission. How would putting our flesh under submission in that instance, affect our sexual relationship when our husbands were once again at home with us?
These are all questions that can only be answered in our own hearts.
But I can say this, I believe with all my heart that we need to renew our minds with regard to what sex is to us.
I know that you have shared some things with me that I could relate to regarding what sex has been in your life; this has been my life too.
Dale has shared some really bold things about what sex has been in his life that I could also relate to.
We have all been the victims of Satan's lies about our sexuality and we have all suffered loss because of it.
GOD gave us sex. He expected it to be a source of pleasure and thanksgiving, but he expected that pleasure and thanksgiving to come to us as a serendipitious blessing that comes out of our own giving. This is just how God works. This is HIS economy.
The enemy has cheated us out of so very much, by planting in our minds what sex is to him and what pleasure is to him.
I do believe GOD designed the pleasure of sex to be something experienced in a few moments of physical release and exstacy, no matter how earth shattering, but to be something that fills all of our physical senses and also our hearts and minds and spririt.
We are triune beings and God is grand and glorious God. God created sex and he created our sexuality and HE just doesnt do things part way; sex is about our whole being and not just our flesh. But we need to renew our minds.
It is very sad to me that the Hindu know more about the spiritual aspects of sexuality and sex than Christians do.
We need to renew our minds and come to the place that Christ is not our religion to be placed in a box marked praise time, or worship time, or study time, or what ever our little box that we have placed him in is called, but that HE is our being and He fills and is Lord over ALL that is our being including our sexuality.
If HE is that, then the expressions of our sexuality must take on a new form, and must come from a new place, that is the totality of our being.
If we have to sum up the one message that Christ brought to us, it is that GOD is Love, and we are loved and we because we are ONE with him are also love;love is expressed in the giving of self.
Our self is not this body of flesh, but is our whole being. Christ gave to us his flesh, for the remission of sins, but he also gave to us his mind that we might prove that which is the perfect will of God. You and I have the mind of Christ that is the mind of Almighty God. And he gave to us HIS SPirit that is the very essence of life itself.
If the coming together of a man and a woman as one flesh, is a physical expression of the coming together of Christ and His bride in one body of which he is head, then wouldn't that tell us that the expression of our sexuality in marriage is a sacred and spiritual thing that is not about the desire of the flesh, but about the expression of purest kind of love with the totality of our triune person and through that expression also the receiving of that same kind of love as it is expressed in our husbands or our wives, which ever the case may be?
The enemy has lied to us about sex and about our sexuality and consquently about the GOD that gave us those things. An His Grace did hit the nail squarely on the head...
quote:
I think you have to seek the face of Jesus in these matters. Really, the key is not to become too pre-occupied with matters of the flesh.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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LaurieFL
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I believe you have hit the nail on the head, His Grace. Seek God's face in all things and pray, pray, pray. He will give us wisdom and let us know what is right and will give us the strength to endure anything He puts before us.
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HisGrace
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Then too, what if a husband is off at war?
I think you have to seek the face of Jesus in these matters. Really, the key is not to become too pre-occupied with matters of the flesh.
The flesh can become all-consuming, so you have to be really careful and prayerful about such matters. There must be some sort of balance, which can be learned through spiritual guidance.
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