quote:

---

Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Its a no-no

---

Awww man. Looks like I'm going to hell
 

---

Posted by Favor Minded (Member # 3636) on :
 
The fact that the Bible doesn't specifically mention masturbation implies that we should approach this topic with sensitivity and caution. Most teenagers and single adults face an enormous struggle coming to terms with their sexual longings. Often the individuals who are most conscientious about their sexual feelings are the ones most likely to be tormented by unrealistic guilt. If we add to Scripture and weigh them down with even more unwarranted guilt, we become like the Pharisees and their legal experts. To protect holy principles, they added their own laws to Moses - like fences around fences - and in the process they heaped on others burdens that they themselves were not willing or able to bear - Luke 11:46

If we are honest, each of us will acknowledge the difficulty of keeping sexually pure in a permissive and sexually obsessed culture. We struggle to avoid either of two extremes. We must not surrender to the hedonistic spirit of the age, but we also want to avoid the spirit of asceticism and proud self-denial that has often marred the history of Christianity. Any belief that our sexual desires and feelings are evil in themselves is based in the Gnostic 1 denial of the goodness of the body and the natural world, not in the teachings of Scripture - 1 Timothy 3:1-3

On the other hand, we can't entirely discount the significance of habitual masturbation as a moral issue simply because it isn't mentioned in Scripture. One doesn't speak of "habitual" eating or "habitual" sleeping unless someone is eating or sleeping much more than they should. The fact that you realize you are caught up in a cycle of habitual behavior implies that you know that something is wrong.

All of life's pleasures have an appropriate context. When we eat entirely for pleasure, we become flabby and unhealthy. When we sleep much more than is needed for rest and bodily health, we become mentally and physically ill. Any misuse of legitimate pleasure has bad consequences.

The purpose of sexual pleasure is to nurture intimacy and unity between a husband and wife -Genesis 2:24 ; Mark 10:6-8 ; Ephesians 5:28-32

Sexual desire is related to our deepest longings, our profoundest potential for intimacy and joy. It is like a fire. In the right circumstances a fire provides warmth, light, and food. In the wrong place it has enormous capacity for destruction.

The Bible doesn't provide a detailed discussion of human sexual issues. It tends to refer to sexual matters indirectly and with considerable delicacy. For example, even the term sex isn't used in the Bible, and the male and female sexual organs are referred to only indirectly, as is the act of intercourse. Even such a serious issue as pedophilia isn't mentioned specifically. It's likely, therefore, that although it isn't mentioned specifically in Scripture, habitual masturbation would be included under the categories of "lasciviousness," "impurity," and "uncleanness" - Leviticus 15:16-17 ; Mark 7:20-22 ; 2 Corinthians 12:21 ; Galatians 5:19 ; Ephesians 5:3,5 ; Colossians 3:5

What are some of the illegitimate uses of sexual pleasure that we should be on guard against?

Sexual pleasure shouldn't serve merely as a "pressure valve" for the release of physical and emotional tension. There are more constructive, loving ways to release - and even to harness - our physical and emotional tension.

Sexual pleasure shouldn't be fed by sinful fantasy. Jesus made it clear that sexual sin isn't limited to physical act. Sin occurs equally in fantasy and imagination. There is a healthy imagination that leads to actions that honor one another, and a self-absorbed imagination that inclines us to use others for our own pleasure - Matthew 5:27-30; 15:19

Sexual fantasy can be a destructive expression of rage, revenge, or lust. Such unhealthy fantasies can scar and harden our hearts even if they aren't carried out in the real world.

Sexual pleasure should never be a way we demand that God satisfy us immediately, on our terms. We should never expect sexual pleasure to compensate for our loneliness, disappointment, powerlessness, or sense of rejection. If we use it for these reasons, it is illegitimate.

Followers of Christ have been given freedom and forgiveness to love and honor one another, but not to be enslaved again to the flesh - Romans 6:16

We have been given God's Spirit and wisdom so that we can understand that our bodies make good servants - and cruel masters.

Remember, while it may be difficult to resist, like anything else, God WILL deliver if your heart is in it. And, one of the biggest revelations is as follows -

It breeds an ever increasing spirit of Lust - The more you do it, the more you want to. Soon Satan has a foothold and will advance you to more Lust satisfying things like Pornography

It is a spirit of Homosexuality
Don't laugh - Think about it - If you are a male, are you not having sex only with a male?

It is a Spirit of Sexual Abuse -

Those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. - Galatians 5:24

What passions are being spoken of here? Sinful passions (Romans 7:5) and vile passions - Romans 1:26 - are what have been crucified and are to be put to death. Passion, in and of itself, is not evil. Otherwise, the passion found between a married couple would also have to be put to death. But, on the contrary, Scripture cultivates this passion - see the Song of Solomon and Proverbs 5:19 - and never identifies self sexual gratification as an evil passion or lust.

What about "uncleanness" - Colossians 3:5

Doesn't the law identify masturbation, or at least the result of it, unclean? Yes it does.

If any man has an emission of semen, then he shall wash all his body in water, and be unclean until evening. And any garment and any leather on which there is semen, it shall be washed with water, and be unclean until evening. - Leviticus 15:16-17; see also verse 32

1 Thessalonians 4:3-8

This is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.

You have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not commit adultery." But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. - Matthew 5:27-28

Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. - 1 Corinthians 6:18
 

---

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Mark 9:43-48

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Masturbation takes the assistance of the hand.
Your feet carry you to a place to masturbate.
The eyes generally cause the lust that causes masturbation in the first place.

Sin, all sin is a serious action or condition of thinking contrary to the will of Yahweh and not to be treated lightly.

Rom 6:12

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Neither yield ye your members (your hands,feet, eyes) [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
crusader I think your comment was both rude and inaccurate. I never implied that masturbation would send anyone to hell. Last time I checked sin sends people to hell and the only sin that cannot be forgiven is the one that is not washed in the blood of the Lamb.

THere are many things that we can do in this life that will cause us to miss out on the truely glorious blessings that God has for us in this life, but still they will not send us to hell.

I have never ever judged wheter a person is hell bound or not and I do not appreciate that you would imply I do, even in jest if that is what that was... in jest.

And, do not EVER quote me as saying something on this board that I did not say. I never said was a NO NO. Those were your words not mine.

I gave sound reason why it is not the best God has for us and if you disagree fine; but do not misquote me.


Thank you.
Linda
 

---

Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 
The scriptures say that we are not supposed to be too pre-occupied with matters of the flesh.

Romans 8:4,5
So that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
For those who are according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit.

It seems like self-gratification can be very frustrating, because God intended that there be physical contact with another human being of the opposite sex, and therefore it can become unfulfilling and addictive without that contact. Something is missing, and the person would keep searching for more.

How can we be sure it is not out of wandering thoughts of lust or just a pleasurable act? It is also something that is directed inwardly and therefore perhaps may be considered to be quite narcissistic??
 

---

Posted by Crusader (Member # 4035) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
crusader I think your comment was both rude and inaccurate. I never implied that masturbation would send anyone to hell. Last time I checked sin sends people to hell and the only sin that cannot be forgiven is the one that is not washed in the blood of the Lamb.

THere are many things that we can do in this life that will cause us to miss out on the truely glorious blessings that God has for us in this life, but still they will not send us to hell.

I have never ever judged wheter a person is hell bound or not and I do not appreciate that you would imply I do, even in jest if that is what that was... in jest.

And, do not EVER quote me as saying something on this board that I did not say. I never said was a NO NO. Those were your words not mine.

I gave sound reason why it is not the best God has for us and if you disagree fine; but do not misquote me.


Thank you.
Linda

---

You have my truly heart felt apologizes. I didnt mean to misquote you. On the site that I am usually at we take what the person is tring to sum up and reply to that. I thought the gist of what you told me was that its not ok. I never ment to be rude or make fun of you at all.
 

---

Posted by RioLion (Member # 1875) on :
 
Masturbation and the associated guilt therein has often been the means by which priests in the confessionals successfully invade the lives of teenagers. Such a practice is considered a mortal sin in the Roman Church and must be confessed.

I have educated my sons that there are some things that are very personal and should be kept to themselves unless it becomes a real problem.

A study of animals indicates that this is a practice often shared by all mammals. yes, it is debateable as to what extent animal behavior is related to human behavior.

While I believe that there is a flavor of misguideness or selfishness involved here, I would caution one about dealing too much upon guilt; that one should try to exercise self discipline in all matters of this nature. Marriage is often the solution to this kind of problem.

It is a good idea to avoid things that would promote such sexual practice; things such a graphic pictures, books, pornography, etc. as such things affect the mental health of those that would involve themselves. For instance, my daughter's ex husband was found masturbating at sights he was viewing on the internet. And that in part, was one of the reasons she disposed of him.
 

---

Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crusader:
Ok were gone over sex, and if has been proven by everyone here that having it before your married is a sin. But what about masterbation? Is that also a sin?

---

quote:

---

All things are legal; all things do not profit or edify. I will seek that which does both profit and edify in this regard. I have experienced that which is legal but does not profit and edify and it does not compare to sex as God by his design intended sex to be.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RioLion:
From a medical standpoint, masturbation is simply 'another manifestation of the natural sex drives of young persons ... prohibited by the rules and regulations of modern society from fulfilling sex urges in the same manner as married couples, teenagers discover they can find sexual satisfaction in masturbation. Despite the stories that warn of physical or mental decay for youngsters who masturbate, there is no evidence that the practice is harmful unless the parents make an issue of it. If there are dangers in masturbation, they are likely to be the isolated and loneliness associated with the practice and the confusion and anxiety which can result if the youngster feels guilty or is punished or criticized for masturbating. Masturbation is such a natural reaction that most youngsters discover it by themselves even if the subject is never discussed by friends or family members. Like many other matters that seem important during the teenage years, masturbation usually diminished as a matter of concern as adulthood is reached.' (Medical & Health Encyclopedia)

I tend to believe that those that indulge in this practice are not engaging in pornography as by definition that is 'the depiction of erotic behavior intended to cause sexual excitement'. Howbeit pornography may induce one to masturbate as it aids in the sexual fantasies often necessary to complete the act.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by becauseHElives:
]If I need sex with children to satisfy my sexual appetite, I should go for it (all things are lawful, just not expedient. Just go to jail. Its man law I have to obey not Yahweh’s, all His laws have been abolished at the cross. Because it is illegal in civil court is nothing to me, I am free from the law of sin and death. If I get caught molesting children, the only punishment is going to mans jail, is all I will get. After all isn't my happiness and fulfillment in life what Christ came to do for me.

If I need a prostitute to help gratify my sexual needs, just go get her. Don't worry about bringing the body under submission. If it feels good do it, all things are legal, just not expedient. (Don't worry about their eternal soul, Yahweh is going to send them where He predestined from the beginning of time.)

Don’t stop there, if you can find sexual gratification in homosexual relationship, go for it. You will only lose your rewards in eternity, after all you have eternal salvation.

This one time praying for salvation, all temptations and trails that come after you have been saved, don't worry about it have sex with anyone you like, have anal sex if you like all thing legal, why stop there bestiality is an option for satisfying those sexual desires.

Fight the good fight of faith. This fight of faith includes a war with the old nature of Adam that still exist. Every child of Yahweh has a dual nature. And to which nature you yeild will be whom you serve. You are in the light only as you walk in the light. We are ingaged in a fight for the souls of mankind. We are not fighting other people with gun and stuff. we are fighting Satan and his demon forces as he comes against our souls. Satan is seeking whom he may destroy. Some he will destroy just their flsh , other he will cause to lose out on eternal salvation.

---

Jesus said: What comes out of one's mouth is waht defiles, not what one takes in.

Paul wrote: All things are legal, but not all things edify or are expedient.

We are discussing "masterbation". We are not discussing prositution, homsexuality, or incest or having sex with children.

The New Testament has commandments against all these things explicitly, so these are not the "legal" things that Paul is referring to in our Freedom in Christ. These all fall under "sexual immorality". Sexual immorality is when one is joined with another person physcially . Masterbation is done alone without connection to anyone else.

Not very fullfilling, but it's not explicitly defined in the Bible as a sin.

We have a natural human need to eat food, to sustain our bodies physical growth and for physical strength. Is the "temptation" for Food a sin?

Sometimes we might desire the Supersized Big Mac, which is lawful for us, but does it edify our bodies? Some people pervert the natural desire for food by overeating, and gluttony. Does that make the rest of us "sinful" because we might on a rare occasion decide to have the Supersized Big Mac meal?

I'm not saying that masterbation is Good, by any means. I'm saying let's have some compassion on those who are weaker.
 

---

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
White Eagle, it is not about compassion. i am very compassinate. I hurt deeply for the Jeffery Dahmer's of this world. I could have been one except for the "GRACE" of Yahweh. I am not talking about the unmerrited favor of God, that is not what grace is. Grace is Yahweh's power, divine influence on the heart of mankind that causes a person to live accourding to what pleases Yahweh. (look up "Grace" in Strong's Concordance)

If Yeshua was here and someone with the prob;em of masturbation was brought before Him, Yesjua would not say no big deal, go ahead and releive your flustrations. (He would say stop go and sin no more)

The same is true of what yhe Apostle Paul, Peter. James, John or anyother writer of the scripture would say, because they all wrote under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit.

Talking about a "Big Mac" eating is a part of living, but "living to eat" is another matter.

If someone is struggling with sin, we must pray for them, incouraging them with scriture, show them the right thing to do.

Not codoning the sin say everybody sins a little everyday.


In 1 Corinthians 6:12, and again at 10:23, Saul (the Apostle Paul) writes,

"All things are Lawful for me, but not all things edify."

All things are Lawful. You can't get any clearer than that! The Torah (Law, teaching, 'Old Testament') no longer applies. 'In Christ' anything is allowed (though perhaps some choices are better than others).

But is that really what this verse means?

One of the roles of God's love-letter to us, the Bible, is to teach us what sin is. Sin has consequences. It affects our relationships with God and one another. The "Law" (Torah) teaches that confession, atonement and repentance are needed to restore fellowship.

Yeshua (Jesus), the perfect lamb, is my atoning sacrifice. He is my cleansing. He nullifies death. All things are done Lawfully each time I confess a sin, offer Yeshua as my sacrifice, and repent (turn away from the sin and back to God).

So "All things are Lawful" does not mean, "Everything is approved of," or even, "Everything is allowed." "All things are Lawful," means, "All things are being done Lawfully." Each time I confess, offer my sacrifice, and repent, I am doing so in accordance with Torah.

Rather than saying the Torah has been done away with, 1 Cor 6:12 and 10:23 depend on its ongoing validity. They teach its application-by-faith in the life of every believer.

(And of course, always remember: To obey is better than sacrifice! 1 Sam 15:22.)
 

---

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
continued from the post just above....

It is impossible to masturbate without lustful thoughts, either with pictures on paper or pictures in he mind. Just like drugs, what satisfies today will not satisfy tommorrow!

Masturbation
by Dennis Rupert


INTRODUCTION
We live in a society that (for the most part) doesn't believe that there should be ANY limits to our sexual freedom or sexual pleasure. If you are coming to this web page as an atheist, then this page will probably no sense to you. That's not a slam at your intelligence - just a warning that this page is coming from a perspective about what God has said about masturbation. So if you are an atheist, you don't believe there is a God. You don't believe in a day of accountability before God (what the Bible calls Judgment Day). There are no Rules, i.e. absolute moral laws. Any morals that you do hold are changeable and you hold them because of tradition or social pressure (the herd mentality) or because you think they might be helpful for the survival of the human race. But basically, you do what you want and your view would be "Nobody has the right to tell me what to do (especially some deity that doesn't even exist)!" So don't read this page, it will probably just seem ridiculous to you.
If you are an evolutionist, then you believe that man is a highly evolved animal. Sexuality isn't a "soul issue" or a "spiritual issue" for you. (You probably don't believe in a soul, since evolution is about matter, energy and chance.) Sex and sexual pleasure is purely a physical function. It's just what animals do. To suggest that some sexual activities might be "right" and "wrong" might have made sense before the invention of contraception or medical treatment for sexual diseases, but in the 21st century it is old fashioned and unnecessary. This page will likely make you mad or at least seem like nonsense. Don't waste your time.
Christians, on the other hand, believe that there is a God. We also believe that the universe isn't an act of chance, but an intentional creation by a loving God with humans fashioned as the peak of God's creative activity. People were made separately and differently than the animals and plants (Genesis 2:7). We also believe that God is not silent. God has spoken in time and space (Hebrews 1:1-2). God has communicated to the "peak of His creation" through various events, miracles, prophets, and especially through sending His Son. In the midst of this communication, God said some things about sexuality. What the Creator said about sexuality is an absolute moral Law for all human beings and for all time. This revelation from God about sexuality contains promotions and prohibitions-- in other words sexual activity that God encourages and sexual activity that He discourages. He limits sexual experience and pleasure, so that human beings would not harm each other and that they would experience joy in the gift of sexuality.

SOME STATISTICS ABOUT MEN AND MASTURBATION
I've been told by women who have read this article that many of the ideas on this page also apply to them, but I have had little-to-no experience with the issue of women and masturbation. However, I have spent a considerable amount of time being a male. I've also talked with men, counseled men, and led men's groups which discussed sexual issues of all types. Therefore, please understand if my comments seem rather male oriented.

Psychologist Archibald Hart wrote a book entitled The Sexual Man (Waco, Texas: Word, 1994). His book contains surveys he conducted on the subject of masturbation. He surveyed married men who masturbate and asked them how they felt about their masturbation. Almost all (97 percent) said they did not "feel guilty." Only 2% thought that it was "shameful."

You would think that would mean that 97-98% of these men would say that masturbation was "normal." But what was unusual was that Dr. Hart could only find 13% of the men who said they "felt normal about masturbation." That's odd. So what does this mean? Either these men genuinely don't know how they feel or they have a lot of confusion about their feelings. On the one hand, "97 percent said they don't feel guilty, but only 13 percent said it felt normal."

I think these results show that a rationalization has taken place in our society. In spite of what society, movies, books, and "sex experts" tell us -- in spite of what men say they believe -- most men still don't feel "right" about masturbation. Many of the married and unmarried men I have spoken with actually "agonize" over their practice of masturbation. Why? Is this God's viewpoint? Is it the persuasive power of uptight Christians making people feel guilt about their masturbation?

FOUR IMPORTANT TRUTHS FROM THE BIBLE
Sex is good and right and pure. It was created by a loving, imaginative God for procreation and pleasure.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.... God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. Genesis 1:27, 31.

A man will be united to his wife and the two will become one flesh. Genesis 2:24.

Rejoice in the wife of your youth! A loving doe, a graceful deer--may her breasts satisfy you at all times, my you ever be captivated by her love. Proverbs 5:18-19.

Take me away with you--let us hurry! Let the king bring me into his bed chambers! Song of Songs 1:4.

My lover is mine and I am his; he browses among the lilies. Until the day breaks and the shadows flee, turn, my lover, and be like a gazelle or like a young stag on the rugged hills. Song of Songs 2:16-17.

God created sex to be ENJOYED. Sex was intended for pleasure. But (and here is God's limitation) sexual pleasure is always to happen within the proper context: a man and a woman who have committed their lives together in marriage.
THERE IS NO COMMANDMENT in the Bible regarding masturbation. In spite of what you thought I might say, I AM NOT SAYING THAT MASTURBATION IS WRONG. The Bible doesn't say that. In the absence of a clear command from God, we must always be careful of creating condemnation where God never intended it.
HOWEVER, we do have a clear command from God's Son Himself, concerning sexually lusting after a person who is not your spouse.

"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Matthew 5:28.

Contrary to our present culture which encourages looking at other people and "getting turned on," Jesus viewed this sin as being very serious. He urged people to radically deal with lust, and says that it is something that can keep us from eternal life (Matthew 5:29-30).
Therefore, if you are masturbating AND you are lusting after someone that you are not married to, then your masturbation/lust is a sin. Most people that I have spoken to on this issue, masturbate using pornography, images, or imagination to lust after someone who is not their spouse. Jesus called this "missing the mark" (the meaning of one of the Greek words for sin). You are committing a form of adultery. You are involved in something that is unhealthy for you and for those around you. This can have consequences for your eternal body. Jesus said: "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell" Matthew 5:27-30.
MASTURBATION AND MARRIAGE
Some single people imagine that masturbation is something they do, because "I don't have a spouse to met my needs." But masturbation does not stop magically when you get married. Archibald Hart in his book The Sexual Man claims "61 percent of all married men surveyed masturbate." Why?

Even in marriage, your sexual "needs" are not always met. Sex in marriage has its interruptions and boring times. Health problems, pregnancies, fatigue, stress, travel separations, neglect, and fights can effect your spouse's ability to be sexually intimate.
Spouses rarely have equal sexual desires and not all spouses are sensitive to the sexual desires of the other partner. This is why Paul said:
"The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife’s body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband’s body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control" (1 Corinthians 7:3-6).
Thought control does not always get easier after marriage; it sometimes gets harder because you are very aware of the delight of sexual fulfillment.
I have counseled with men who have a sensitive, caring, understanding spouse and a regular and fulfilling sexual relationship, but who still compulsively masturbate. This is a good indication that the problem is not with being sexually fulfilled, but something deeper. "Something in me, not my spouse."
THE DOWNSIDE OF MASTURBATION/LUST
Masturbation can become compulsive. This is certainly not true for everyone, but I've talked with men and women who masturbated up to 20 times a day. Any compulsive behavior such as this is unhealthy and stunts your ability to grow as a person. The Bible calls this sin - you are "missing the mark" (2 Peter 2:19). Like any other pleasure, masturbation can become an addiction. See How Sexual Experiences Become Addictions.
Many of the men I have counseled use masturbation as a form of emotional uplift. What I mean by this is that they don't know how to properly express or handle feelings of defeat, rejection, sadness, or depression. Masturbation becomes a temporary "high" and a substitute for learning how to properly handle negative feelings. In these cases, masturbation allowed the men to remain emotionally stunted. This spilled over into their relationships with other people, especially their wives or girl friends. One wife that I talked to said, "He uses me and masturbation like a pacifier."
As demonstrated by Archibald Hart's research, masturbation can cause guilt feelings or at the least a sense of "this is not normal." Feelings like this make it hard for you to relate to other people: "Other people don't seem to struggle with this, the way I do. What's wrong with me? I must be different. It's better if I hide this part of myself from other people." Guilt separates you from other people. Guilt also blunts your feelings toward God: "How could God love someone like me who struggles with lust?"
Sexual excitement starts in the mind, not your sex organs. Some individuals who compulsively masturbate need ever-increasing mental excitement to masturbate. They visualize wild sexual fantasies or use "hard pornography" (depicting sadism, rape, or child molestation) in order to masturbate. We'd like to think that fantasies are harmless and hurt no one. This is simply not true. As a man thinks in his heart, so he is. (Proverbs 23:7). Sexual fantasies are not at all like the loving physical relationship between a husband and wife. These fantasies will put a strain on your marriage by either comparing your spouse to your fantasies or insisting on your spouse participating in what "turns you on."
Fantasizing in your mind makes you want to enact your fantasies -- worse sin, big trouble. I've counseled individuals who began with a habit of masturbation and so-called "soft pornography." But they couldn't stop there. They ended up in practices of child molestation, rape, bestiality, time with prostitutes, cross-dressing, public exposure, and jail time. In spite of what our culture says, lust really can kill you.
Your lack of self-control in this area may make you susceptible to unfaithfulness in your marriage. If you cannot control your masturbation and fantasy lust (with other women), then what makes you believe you can be faithful in reality to your marriage partner?
The guilt you feel about masturbation/lust can be transferred to thinking that all sex is dirty and wrong. This is not a correct thought process at all. The Bible teaches that sex in (the right) context is good and wonderful. But if most of your sexual experiences lead to feelings of guilt, you can begin to think of all sexual experience as "dirty."
Because of the concentration on your own orgasm or release, masturbation can train you to be selfish in marital sex. Since masturbation is usually done quickly, it is not uncommon for masturbation to create a problem with pre-ejaculation in your sexual relationships.

TOOLS FOR OVERCOMING A CHRONIC HABIT OF MASTURBATION/LUST
Understand that the battle is the Lord's. You don't have the power in and of yourself to overcome masturbation (or any other chronic sin). You are actually pretty powerless and your Father will have to be the one to create righteousness in you. Rely on God to create new desires in your heart and to give you the fruit of peace and self-control. Self-control is a fruit of the Spirit, not you. You will be amazed as you trust in your Father at how the "want-to"s of your heart will really change over time. As a Christian you ARE being transformed into the image of Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 3:18). Don't simply grit your teeth and try harder. Ask God to do it. Trust Him to provide new desires. Participate in the miracle.
The key to self-control in masturbation/lust is thinking the right thoughts by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace. The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Romans 8:6-7.

Your mind controls your sexual arousal. Your most important sex organ is your mind. So let's begin the process of transforming your mind (Romans 12:2). Get these Scriptures into your head and heart. Quote them when you get up in the morning and whenever you are tempted. They will help you to renew your mind and the Holy Spirit will use them to teach you to think differently.
Romans 13:14 "Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature."

Romans 8:6 "The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace."

John 8:34,36 "Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed."

2 Corinthians 10:4-5 "The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ."

Get a concordance and look up other verses about sexual immorality or who you are in Christ or the power of the Holy Spirit. Write these down and begin committing them to memory.

Work on victory only one day at a time:
Never think about getting victory for the rest of your life.

Here is the way to think: "My roommates are all out of the apartment. Lord, just let me get through this one afternoon."

Remind yourself how long it's been since the last time you masturbated/lusted.
"I've had victory for a whole week. Praise God! Now do I really want to go through that guilt again just to start over again? NO, not today!"

Remember and review the downside of masturbation/lust.

The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 1 Corinthians 16:13
If you sin, it's a little bit easier to sin the next time; but the opposite is also true -- resist and it will make you stronger.

Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. James 4:7.

Resist the devil, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings. 1 Peter 5:9.
Engage in some type of strenuous exercise. "Go and burnout" and it will lessen the desire. One guy would go and do chin ups until his arms felt like they would fall off.

Therefore, I do not run like a man aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize. 1 Corinthians 9:26-27.
Avoid any situation that tempts you personally. Avoid it. Change it. Expose it. Purify your environment. Remove anything from your home or place of work that causes you to want to sin sexually -- books, magazines, DVDs, internet access, etc.

I will set before my eyes no vile thing. Psalm 101:3

Flee from sexual immorality. 1 Corinthians 6:18.

Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 2 Timothy 2:22.

Find out what pleases the Lord. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. Ephesians 5:11.
Be accountable to another Christian brother. Call a Christian friend with whom you can fellowship during this time of temptation. See The Importance of Accountability (PDF file).

He who trusts in himself is a fool. Proverbs 28:26.

Let not my heart be drawn to what is evil, to take part in wicked deeds with men who are evildoers; let me not eat of their delicacies. Let a righteous man strike me--it is a kindness; let him rebuke me--it is oil on my head. My head will not refuse it. Psalm 141:4-5.

Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. James 5:16.
Change your habits of thinking. This is also the area that will take the most work. Quick and easy victory is unlikely. This is a war, not just a battle.

Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is. Romans 12:2.

Ask the Lord to show you why you have wrong desires. Give some serious thought to figuring out WHY you masturbation. A chronic habit of masturbation is usually a emotional substitute for something. It's like a drug we use to anesthetize our emotional pain. Are you using masturbation to overcome sadness, lack of self-esteem, feelings of rejection, or fear of failure? If so, then you are confusing psychological/spiritual issues with sex. Masturbating isn't going to help you mature emotionally. It will only keep you childlike. Take some time to really figure out what masturbation is being used for in your life. Then separate out the psychological issues from God's gift of sex. Ask God to reveal any burdens or anxieties you are carrying, then give them back to Him.

Changing your habits of thinking may require talking with someone. A wise Christian brother or a Christian counselor can be invaluable in pointing out different ways of thinking and acting.

Plans fail for lack of counsel, but with many advisors they succeed. Proverbs 15:22.
Get in the habit of praising and thanking God for the way you are, including your sex organs. Thank Him for making you a sexual being and ask Him to help you control yourself so you can enjoy sex in its proper context.

I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Psalm 139:14.
If you yield to the temptation, confess as soon as possible, and don't dwell on it. You will feel guilty, because you have given in to your flesh and have obeyed it desires, but don't keep punishing yourself about it. "For every one look at your sin, look ten times at the mercy of Jesus." Rejoice in the cleansing, forgiving power of the blood of Jesus Christ. Your standing with God, your Father is because of Jesus' rightness, not yours. Renew fellowship with your Father immediately and again reckon yourself "dead to sin, but alive to God."
Grow spiritually. Don't stop serving or learning. Sometimes guilt makes us feel like we are not worthy to serve in the church or associate with other Christians. That is Satan's trap to keep you away from God's grace (Romans 8:1). Don't run from the "streams of God's grace": fellowship, teaching, communion, Bible study, using your spiritual gifts. Stay involved and active. Becoming more like Christ in other areas will help you in this one.
For more on weapons to use in your battle against lust see Weapons for the War.

http://www.new-life.net/mastrbte.htm
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Perhaps you better go back and read my first post Dale.

The first thing folks do is claim that all things are legal. Paul says that where there is no law there is no trangression of the law. We are not under law, but grace. So people claim grace.

To which Paul says all things are legal, but all things do not edify or profit.

But what is the two commands that Jesus gave? Love your God with all your person (body soul spirit)(mind heart body)(love your neighbor as yourself)(love hath none greater than he who will lay down his life for his brother)


IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO keep THE FIRST TWO ON WHICH ALL THE LAW AND THE PHROPHETS HANG WITHOUT doing that which is PROFITING AND EDIFYING!!!!!!

If you are doing something that does not profit; you are not loving God or your neighbor.

If you are doing something that does not edify, you are not loving God or your neighbor.

To love God is to Edify!
To exhalt him through the puting down of our will and lifting up of his.

To love Neigbor is to seek His profit not yours!To seek the profit of the Body of Christ above all things.

I think that sax is a spiritual matter not a flesh one. The enemy has perverted sex and taught us that it is a human need that must be filled like the need for food. That is a humanistic world view and not a Biblical one.

Sex is spiritual relationship expressed in the flesh. It is a relationship designed by God, who opened Adam's side and took out of him all things needed to create woman, then fashioning her in perfect compliment to Adam, he presented her to Adam, in the physical union of sex they came together as one complete flesh. These two beings had once been present in Adam, but GOD did not see that as good. It would be better to have them be two bodies that complimented, completed each other. What God hath joined together let no man separate.

Sex is about the compliment, the completing of two things that are better suited to acomplish God's will than either are apart and incomplete.

Why does the enemy pervert sex? Because Sex is a Holy thing. Sex is something that expresses love of the purest kind.

In marriage, a body of a husband does not belong to the husband, but to the wife. Likewise the body of the wife does not belong to the wife but to the husband. In marriage God does not see them as two but as ONE flesh with a head that is the husband.

Christ is one body with the Church; God the father does not look at the church and see the bride, he looks at the church and sees the SON who is the head of his body the church.

The sexual union of man and woman in one flesh is an expression in the flesh of a spiritual union of our spiriutal union with Christ.

It is a relationship that is designed by God to Honor and glorify God.

This is why the enemy has perverted sex.

Nothing GOD does is about self; God's love is a love that denies self that the whole be glorified.

Christ gave his body that the compliment of it that is the church be glorified.In doing that he is glorified by God.

In sex, we give our bodies to our partner that the compliment of us that is our partner be glorified. In doing that we too are glorified. And God is also Glorified.

IF you think God does not take this issue seriously, I would have you look at something...

THis is a story from Genesis 38....

6 And Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, whose name was Tamar.And Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him.

8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother’s wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother’s wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.

10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.

************************************************

For spilling his seed on the ground God slew Judah's second born son.

Man's seed is for God's purpose. God does not like it being spent irreverently.

Only the marriage bed is undefiled by the spilling of seed. The marriage is consumated in the union of sex.

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

God even uses this analogy of the spilling of seed to show the child of God verses the one who sins...

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him:

Sex is a holy thing; created and given to man and woman by God to be shared. It is a physical expression of a spiritual principle that was intended to profit and to edify. When sex occurs as God has intended it, God is glorified.

Satan has perverted sex; Satan has told us a lie that we have natural (flesh)urges that must be satisfied whether or not we have a spouse with which to have sex, and as some of us have shared here, this is what men are teaching their sons.

Why do you think that the scripture says it is better to marry than to be given over to lust?

Why does it not say just satisfy your lust with masturbation? This is what you are teaching your children right?

It does not say this because, masturbation is FORNICATION. All sex outside the bed of marriage is Fornication and if it is with someone married, it is also adultry.

THIS IS WHY IT SAYS IT IS BETTER TO MARRY!

The truth is that your bodies are holy vessels designed out of miry clay and given life from the breath of HIS spirit, sanctified for HIS pleasure and to bring HIM honor and glory.

There is not one function of your vessel that was not intended to bring him glory and honor and that includes our sexual desires.

We should not be teaching our children that they have natural desires of the flesh which they cannot control and that must be satisfied or else they eat us up inside.

We should be teaching our children that their bodies are holy vessels with which we have been given by God to bring glory to God and sex is a wonderful and glorious thing that God has given us as gift to give to our husbands or wives. It is a gift of Honor to be reverenced and when it is given in the right time and place to the right person, it is glorious and pleasurable and it glorifies God. It was not given to us for our pleasure, but in our giving it to our husbands and our wives, we are given great pleasure.

How very sad to take something so precious and so spiritual as sex and turn it into something so carnal in the minds of the children that God has given us to steward. They are not our children, but HIS children, and when we teach them such a humanistic view of our sexuality, we do HIM a great dis-service.
 

---

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 

quote:

---

All things are legal; all things do not profit or edify. I will seek that which does both profit and edify in this regard. I have experienced that which is legal but does not profit and edify and it does not compare to sex as God by his design intended sex to be.

---

This quote just wasn't black and white enough for me.

But the above post was white, no shades of gray.

Linda, thank you for clairifing
 

---

Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 
Linda, I'm not advocating teaching people to masterbate.

BecauseHelives, I'm not condoning "everyone sins a little every day" theory.


I hope you both don't intend to give the impression that you would punish your 12 year old boy or girl for touching themselves and masterbating, and tell the 12 year old she/he's going to Hell, because he touched a part of his body?

Or would you explain to them that they are starting to mature, and that their feelings are normal, but that there are limits to what is good for them?

I'm sorry, but I find it difficult to call something that God built in to the human nature, especially since He designed us to be sexual beings, a "sin". It's normal to explore one's own body. We do it as soon as we are born. Babies first notice their hands, then their feet, and this is how they learn.

Many people who are seeking compassion and love from the church are often condemned by people who do not express God's Love and compassion.

I shudder to think what a young child would have to go through in unmerited guilt listening to these kinds of views. I'm not advocating permissiveness, but the ability to be able to teach one's child about sex, in a way that doesn't make them feel EVIL and Guilty just because they notice their own body likes pleasurable sensations.

Like everything else, it's a condition of one's heart, that determines if it is a sin.

I'm not going to condemn a lonely widower or divorsed person, that worries that masterbation might be a sin. The Bible NEVER, even in the Old Testament, ever mentions this specific practice.
Where the Bible is silent, I think we do have freedom.

The man who spilled his seed, mentioned by Linda, was punished for the condition of his heart, when he did this deed. He was in rebellion toward God.
He did not want to follow the Law, and raise up children in his dead brother's name. He was acting in selfishness, in this instance.

It's not because there was anything sacred about sperm. God knows his body could always make more sperm.

Compassion: Yes. As we know one doesn't do this unless they are young and immature or when they are in difficult circumstances, such as loneliness.

Yes there are many cases that people are addicted to porn, and they practice this, I say it's a sin at that point. They are "indulging" the lusts of the flesh. And Porn is a form of violence, and we have heard the many stories of terrible things that happen when people are addicted to porn.

I'm just trying to say that this is not a pure black and white issue. It's the condition of one's heart to God, that determines. And isn't this the case in so many other things as well?
 

---

Posted by RioLion (Member # 1875) on :
 
I think that much of the guilt one experiences as a teenager in the sexual area is induced not by what the Bible says, but by what has been taught to the older generation that considered sex something dirty and the topic was seldom discussed. Even hear of Victorian ethics on sexuality? Mom and Dad were that way and really failed to teach us much at all in the area of sexuality.

As for 'all things are legal for me but not all things edify' that really is what the Corinthians thought and not necessarily what Paul would have taught. Their society was very sexually oriented with temple prostitutes,etc.

The belief that all masturbation was evil is a view that has been promoted by the Roman Church. Being classified as a mortal sin that would send one directly to hell if not confessed, became a means by which priests were able to invade the personal lives of their subjects in order to exploit them. We see today that that denomination continues to pay enormous sums in law suits for interfering in the personal lives of children.

In view of our religious cultural orientation, it is best to stick with the medical determinations on this matter and simply recognize it as something natural that occurs on the way to adulthood and be done with it.
 

---

Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 
I agree Rio.
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Actually I agree with Rio's comments about guilt. Sex is not something taboo or bad or ugly. The perversion of sex and ones sexuality is. The reduction of our sexuality to something carnal is a perversion of our sexuality. We are not beasts, we the work of the master potter created in the image of almighty GOD!


I do not agree with his comments about medical views rather than Biblical ones. The desire to mastrubate is not something GOD gave us.

Punishing children? That came out of your head not mine.

What I said was that we should teach our children that sex is good and pleasurable and something that God gave to us. Sex is precious, and so are their bodies. Sex and their bodies are something to be valued and used as GOD intended for His glory.

I can not even begin to comprehend how you would think that teaching children to value sex and their bodies causes guilt.

Teaching chasity as a life style because you are valued and honored by God and because you are wonderfully and beautifully made by him and for the purpose of bringing HIM glory does not cause guilt.
 

---

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
WhiteEagle,

quote:

---

Like everything else, it's a condition of one's heart, which determines if it is a sin.

I'm not going to condemn a lonely widower or divorced person, which worries that masturbation, might be a sin. The Bible NEVER, even in the Old Testament, ever mentions this specific practice.
Where the Bible is silent, I think we do have freedom.

---

quote:

---

I hope you both don't intend to give the impression that you would punish your 12 year old boy or girl for touching themselves and masturbating, and tell the 12 year old she/he's going to Hell, because he touched a part of his body?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crusader:

quote:

---

Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Its a no-no

---

Awww man. Looks like I'm going to hell

---

You are not going to hell because you have lusted in your own nature, but you will go to hell if the Lord Jesus Christ does not cover you with His blood!
 

---

Posted by Miguel (Member # 47) on :
 
It just came to mind at this time, that is why the Lord indicates in His word that is not good for a man to be alone male and female made He so they will be one. The desires of the man are for the woman and the desires of the woman are to the man! But even when you have your partner many things can come up, sometimes the female is aggressive in that area than man and sometimes the man is more aggressive in that area. So it creates conflict and that is when fleshy desires come in to fulfill that which your partner does not.
 

---

Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 
BecauseHelives:

I respect your belief, and admit since I am not a man, I may be not as aware of these things you mention as a man. I do know that perhaps since this area is not a problem for me personally, that I underestimated the pitfalls, but I certainly don't think masterbation is something that is a Good thing at all. I just don't think we should be overly severe, but teach and teach well for the child's sake. I fear that sometimes children are made to feel guilty for sexual stirrings, that are part of growing up, and I perhaps suffered from that.

My parents caused me to be so afraid of boys, that it really caused worse problems later.

Anyway, I know that my own husband is a Christian, and things that bother him as a man, don't personally bother me, as a woman, plus being a nurse, I kind of take the human body as something to heal, not lust after.

God bless.
 

---

Posted by LaurieFL (Member # 3794) on :
 
OKay, this is probably way too graphic for some of you, so please don't read this if you think you might get offended. I feel compelled to give a personal example as a question.

I am a woman. I have physical urges as most people do. I am newly married. I love my husband and I love consummating my love with him. He is out of town for a few days, and I have been suffering physical pangs for wanting sex, totally a hormonal thing I believe - without thinking upon sex or watching anything bad on TV or in print.

Now, I don't personally feel comfortable with masturbation anymore, although it is a practice I have done for most of my life. However, my question to the folks condemning it here is the following: what if my husband and I had phone sex?

I personally tend to think it would be weird, but I had to ask the question to see your answers, because it would involve no fantasy of anyone else, but would be between a married couple!

My personal choice in this situation has been to keep busy and plan on pouncing on him when he gets home, but I have to wonder if a couple found themselves in this situation for a prolonged period, what would be the proper course of action. In my opinion, it could be something that would help maintain some intimacy between them and could help keep them from sinning as a result of unresolved yearnings. I don't know the right answer!

I tend to think "I wouldn't want to be doing that sort of thing when Jesus came back", but then again I wouldn't want to be using the bathroom, picking my nose, or having sex with my spouse when He comes back either, so I don't know if that is a valid thought.
 

---

Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 
LOL! Praise God for you Laurie!

I too, have not wanted to be in the bathroom when Christ comes back either.

It's too funny~!
 

---

Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 
Then too, what if a husband is off at war?

I think you have to seek the face of Jesus in these matters. Really, the key is not to become too pre-occupied with matters of the flesh.

The flesh can become all-consuming, so you have to be really careful and prayerful about such matters. There must be some sort of balance, which can be learned through spiritual guidance.
 

---

Posted by LaurieFL (Member # 3794) on :
 
I believe you have hit the nail on the head, His Grace. Seek God's face in all things and pray, pray, pray. He will give us wisdom and let us know what is right and will give us the strength to endure anything He puts before us.
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Laurie: I too hope that no one is offended by the boldness of your question, but I think it is a great question, and important question, and a question that caused me to pause and to think and to pray.

My first blush response, was go for it; it is your husband. But then I was reminded of this scripture that I posted regarding Judah's 2nd son. That led me to think about why this was displeasing to God. Was it that he spilled seed? Was it that he did not want to give his seed to his brother's legacy? Was it that in spilling his seed he sought only that which is physical in the laying with his dead brother's wife? Was it all of the above?

Then I read the wonderful post by His Grace. I really think that she did hit the nail on the head. We have to seek HIS Face and not focus so much on the flesh.

If sex really is to be a spiritual experience about an expression of love and the giving of ones self in complete abandon to our spouse then is this scenario one that fills that experience? Is the mindset that led to it a right mindset? Or is it our flesh that should not be our focus at that time? If it is our flesh, then would it be better to move on and put our flesh under submission. How would putting our flesh under submission in that instance, affect our sexual relationship when our husbands were once again at home with us?

These are all questions that can only be answered in our own hearts.

But I can say this, I believe with all my heart that we need to renew our minds with regard to what sex is to us.

I know that you have shared some things with me that I could relate to regarding what sex has been in your life; this has been my life too.

Dale has shared some really bold things about what sex has been in his life that I could also relate to.

We have all been the victims of Satan's lies about our sexuality and we have all suffered loss because of it.

GOD gave us sex. He expected it to be a source of pleasure and thanksgiving, but he expected that pleasure and thanksgiving to come to us as a serendipitious blessing that comes out of our own giving. This is just how God works. This is HIS economy.

The enemy has cheated us out of so very much, by planting in our minds what sex is to him and what pleasure is to him.

I do believe GOD designed the pleasure of sex to be something experienced in a few moments of physical release and exstacy, no matter how earth shattering, but to be something that fills all of our physical senses and also our hearts and minds and spririt.

We are triune beings and God is grand and glorious God. God created sex and he created our sexuality and HE just doesnt do things part way; sex is about our whole being and not just our flesh. But we need to renew our minds.

It is very sad to me that the Hindu know more about the spiritual aspects of sexuality and sex than Christians do.

We need to renew our minds and come to the place that Christ is not our religion to be placed in a box marked praise time, or worship time, or study time, or what ever our little box that we have placed him in is called, but that HE is our being and He fills and is Lord over ALL that is our being including our sexuality.

If HE is that, then the expressions of our sexuality must take on a new form, and must come from a new place, that is the totality of our being.

If we have to sum up the one message that Christ brought to us, it is that GOD is Love, and we are loved and we because we are ONE with him are also love;love is expressed in the giving of self.

Our self is not this body of flesh, but is our whole being. Christ gave to us his flesh, for the remission of sins, but he also gave to us his mind that we might prove that which is the perfect will of God. You and I have the mind of Christ that is the mind of Almighty God. And he gave to us HIS SPirit that is the very essence of life itself.

If the coming together of a man and a woman as one flesh, is a physical expression of the coming together of Christ and His bride in one body of which he is head, then wouldn't that tell us that the expression of our sexuality in marriage is a sacred and spiritual thing that is not about the desire of the flesh, but about the expression of purest kind of love with the totality of our triune person and through that expression also the receiving of that same kind of love as it is expressed in our husbands or our wives, which ever the case may be?

The enemy has lied to us about sex and about our sexuality and consquently about the GOD that gave us those things. An His Grace did hit the nail squarely on the head...

quote:

---

I think you have to seek the face of Jesus in these matters. Really, the key is not to become too pre-occupied with matters of the flesh.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
sex is about our whole being and not just our flesh. But we need to renew our minds.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crusader:
Ok were gone over sex, and if has been proven by everyone here that having it before your married is a sin. But what about masterbation? Is that also a sin?

---

Crusader cruise around this scriptures;

And the Lord God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Genesis 2:18

And if any man's seed of copulation go out from him, then he shall wash all his flesh in water, and be unclean until the even. And every garment, and every skin, whereon is the seed of copulation, shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the even.

Leviticus 15:16-17

The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Jeremiah 17:9

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Matthew 5:28

For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from [their] mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive [it], let him receive [it].

Matthew 19:12

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.

Romans 7:18

[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:1

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Romans 8:5

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:8

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Romans 8:13

Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof].

Romans 13:13-14

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1 Corinthians 6:19

[This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Galatians 5:16-17

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Galatians 5:24

For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Galatians 6:8

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Ephesians 2:3

Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

2 Timothy 2:22

For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

1 John 2:16
 

---

Posted by RioLion (Member # 1875) on :
 
A medical doctor once told me that it one does not have a sexual release through intercourse or masturbation, then it most likely will be released in your sleep. That would indicate to me that it is really something natural to the human body.

For those that overindulge in masturbation, it is apparently that like drinking alcohol, one can be abusive and simply harm oneself. I rather doubt that this kind of harm really happens too often and really is a problem that must be dealt with.

A solution to the problem, if one has one, is to develop self discipline which over a period of time, one will be able to control the kind of impulses that manisfest themselves in such behavior. In that way, purity of mind may be achieved and less feeling of guilt associcated with it.
 

---

Posted by Study (Member # 3991) on :
 
I have been reading this trend for awhile now. Is it possible that you guys are offending your body, which is the temple and body of Christ. You might want to try the following verses for relief I think they might apply.


Matthew 5
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.


Matthew 18
7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye , rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Mark 9
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

All in love.
Don't blast me now!

God Bless
 

---

Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 
We should never be offended by someone quoting scriptures Study. Each one of us aught to let them examine our hearts and see if the Lord speaks to us in any area of our lives.
 

---

Posted by Study (Member # 3991) on :
 
Thanks HisGrace you have been blessed with wisdom.


 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
WhiteEagel:

quote:

---

Plus that guy in the Old Testament wasn't masterbating, he was having relations with his borther's wife at the time he decided to "spill" his seed. His was a sin of Rebellion toward God and The Law. He was already indilging his flesh.

---

I think you might want to spend some time in the old testament. Judah's 2nd son was told to take the wife of his DEAD brother, by his father Judah. THe scriptures commanded that the brother take the wife of his brother and raise children for His brother in his brother's name; this was important to preserve the lineage of each member of the family and the inheiritance that was his, particularly that of the first born son. THis woman's dead husband was a firstborn son, and her brother in law taking her in marriage after her husband's death would have insured that her son receive the blessing of the firstborn, as their children would be raised in the name of the dead brother. As it was, this woman did have a son, two sons, which she got through trickery against Judah, and one of those sons was Pharez, from whose line DAVID came...

Deuteronomy 25:5 ¶ If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband’s brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband’s brother unto her. {her husband’s…: or, her next kinsman}
6 And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel.


As to your comments about the physical and spiritual aspects of sex, I am sorry that you miss the point.

The point is that we are not just physical beings but also spiritual. When we try to live in the physical without adressing the spiritual we do not live as God designed us to live and we miss the glory that God intended us to have.

This is exactly what sin did. It caused us to walk in our flesh apart from our spirit that is in communion with God. This created a man that was dead though he walked and lived.

We are supposed to now be new creatures.

Of course we have hormones and chemicals that allow us physical pleasure in sex.


Exactly pain and problems go with sexual IMMORALITY. This is by your own admission because sex is a spiritual as well as physical experience. That should tell us something. God intended sex to be between two people in a covenant relationship. When that relationship is not present neither should sex be. That includes sex with yourself. God did not design us to have sex with ourselves. If you can't see that or don't want to see that, this is fine, but it does not make it untrue.

As to the Song of Soloman, I do not know how anyone could read that and not see it as both physical and spiritual.

Your comments about beatings in the day of Martin Luther would be funny if they were not so sad. Why must one beat ones self to put down flesh? Because by our own power we can't put down flesh... we need grace, we need HIM, we need HIS power. But we will never realize his power walking in the flesh...his power is in Spirit.

Lastly, about legalism. Leagalism seeks to save ones self through the works of the flesh, his own flesh, apart and without the Spirit of God.

Nothing in this discussion has been about works of the flesh except those things spoken by people condone walking in it.

Respectfully,
Linda
 

---

Posted by MentorsRiddle (Member # 2108) on :
 
The way I see it is this:

If you have to ask if something is wrong, then chances are it usually is...
 

---

Posted by Study (Member # 3991) on :
 
Good point MentorsRiddle!
 

---

Posted by redkermit (Member # 4059) on :
 
I'm no doctor, but that is some of the strangest advice I have ever heard. I can't say as though I've ever researched the issue specifically, but I do remember reading on the topic before in the Dr. Gott syndicated columns. From what I can remember, his medical opinion was that there is nothing that can be done to "make" it grow/develop more.
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Dear Sister BatElohim:

You made a decision based on a right heart before God and you have to know that God will honor you for it.

Rear your son to be a Godly man, teach him to pray for the woman that God has out there just for him; teach him to value his body and his sexuality and to save his virginity for the woman that GOD has just for him. Teach him to pray that she will do the same. She is out there now, even though he does not know it. Rear him to pray for her as he grows up. Then when she enters his life, he will know she is the one. He will have been praying for her all his life.

There is no one in school that ever needs to know the size of your son's p-enis that they could use it to tease him.

I guarantee you that God has a wonderful young woman out there somewhere who was created by God just for him, to be his helpmeet in life and if they honor God with their lives and their bodies while they wait to find each other, I have no doubt that the size of his p-enis will not be an issue.

And don't you go thinking that you have done anything that he should hate you for when he gets older. You have not. Do not approach your decison from the enemy's angle and don't ever let your son believe that he is anything except perfectly and wonderfully made by God and he has everything he needs to serve God and live a blessed life.

God bless you and your son richly and may he grow to be a mighty man of God, a Godly husband and father and may you be blessed with wonderful grandchildren to love and cherish.

In Christ,
Linda
 

---

Posted by redkermit (Member # 4059) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Dear Sister BatElohim:

There is no one in school that ever needs to know the size of your son's p-enis that they could use it to tease him.

I guarantee you that God has a wonderful young woman out there somewhere who was created by God just for him, to be his helpmeet in life and if they honor God with their lives and their bodies while they wait to find each other, I have no doubt that the size of his p-enis will not be an issue.

---

While this is true, and I appreciate your insights (here and throughout the message board), it is still a very difficult and intensely personal issue to deal with. Without saying too much, let's just say I can identify with Bat Elohim's son. It can be tough at school, especially if you're in a situation where you are required to take a gym class, which requires showering. So, yes, no one at school needs to know, but it can happen.

It doesn't help that society places such an emphasis on this issue. It can become very crippling psychologically when trying to develop a relationship with a woman. Just keep praying for him, and keep the lines of communication and support open, which I'm sure you are. And reiterate what Linda posted:

"I guarantee you that God has a wonderful young woman out there somewhere who was created by God just for him, to be his help(mate) in life and if they honor God with their lives and their bodies while they wait to find each other, I have no doubt that the size of his p-enis will not be an issue."
 

---

Posted by redkermit (Member # 4059) on :
 
That's understandable, and I'm sure the last person he wants to discuss sexual issues with is his mother!

But, I guess I'm just saying to be available to him, let him know you're there in case he does need to talk about it. And, just in general, be supportive and help keep his self-esteem up.
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Redkermit: you are right and even if the shower never becomes an issue, there is always he possibility that someone would tease that way not knowing anything about his anatomy. Hence the importance of teaching our children Christ Esteem. We are ok because of the one who lives in us who is perfect.

Bat Elohim: I too was abused as a child and I understand your being uncomfortable. Each of us learns to cope with this kind of thing in different ways; but once the coping is done and we move to a place in our lives where we do have control over our bodies that we did not have as children, we move from coping into forgiveness and healing and we learn a wonderful thing about God and that is that All things work together for good in those who are called according to his purpose. The enemy meant to destroy you through abuse; but he did not. Yes damage was done, but none that is too great for God to deal with and GOD takes that damage and he turns it into something that equips you to be a blessing to others and to bring Glory to him. Every stripe we every bear at the hands of the enemy no matter how big or how deep is an opportunity for God to do something fantastic, and awesome, and glorious. When we enter into HIS rest, we can walk in wholeness now; we no longer have to wear those scar in fear and uncomfortableness, they no longer have to bring us shame; instead we can wear them boldly as a testamony of what God has done in us. You will note that I did not tell you the scars go away, they don't, even Jesus bore in his hands the marks of the nails; but he was a new person and we are risen in him now. Our scars are there but they have new meaning, victorious meaning through Christ. I hope you will pray about that. I will pray for you and that regard, but I beseech you sister, don't let the enemy have any victory over you that is not his. Don't let your scars keep you from talking to your son about hard things, and don't let them keep you from being comfortable in your own body. God gave you that body and the enemy abused it for a time, but the enemy can't take more than a pound of flesh, you are so much more than that, and so much more precious to God than that. Don't look at what the enemy has done, Look at Christ, and see what God is doing, it will give you a very different perspective on those scars.

God Bless,
Linda
 

---

Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 
Linda I've gone back to one of your earlier posts on this subject, which in which you use the Example of Onan in Genesis 38 as proof that the Bible is saying that Masterbation is wrong.

Your quotes will get there, but as I looked over that post I saw some other things, so I answer these as they go.

quote:

---

Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Perhaps you better go back and read my first post Dale.

The first thing folks do is claim that all things are legal. Paul says that where there is no law there is no trangression of the law. We are not under law, but grace. So people claim grace.

To which Paul says all things are legal, but all things do not edify or profit.

But what is the two commands that Jesus gave? Love your God with all your person (body soul spirit)(mind heart body)(love your neighbor as yourself)(love hath none greater than he who will lay down his life for his brother){QUOTE][QB]

Favor-Minded wrote his only response about this issue on Nov.17 or 18 in this thread, and I find His views to be something I can agree with both spiritually and scripturally. You may want to go back and read what Favor-Minded wrote, especially his first paragraph. The Pharisees "added" things to God's Laws and placed impossible burdens upon the people"

In this thread we are discussing masterbation, not pornography, not adultry, no fornication. Most here think that if one masterbates that they are also looking at porn, or actively "lusting" after someone else. While that can be the case many times, it is not the case with people who are striving to be pure, and who still "suffer" the pangs of desire through no other sin of their own, and many occasionally release this "tension" themselves, so they can go on, and not start to begin lusting. Sometimes the physcial reality of hormones comes upon one, and they crave sex, but have not tried to lust, but once that physical feeling comes upon them, it starts the process of Lust, and How to I get this fulfilled?

Paul wrote to Timothy, "drink a "little" wine for your stomach's sake." We know drunkeness was a sin, yet Christ himself drank real "wine".

He was called a glutton and a drunk by the Pharisees.

The parallal, is calling a simple act a sin, that the Bible NEVERS describes. You add all other kinds of things to that act, such as porn and lust, and adultry, and have put an impossible burden on young Christians, or even unbelievers who would strive for sexual purity.

The basic teaching of the New Testament regarding many things, is Moderation. Sexual Immorality is defined very explicitly by Paul, and these are things we need to avoid and not sin by doing them.


[QUOTE][QB]In sex, we give our bodies to our partner that the compliment of us that is our partner be glorified. In doing that we too are glorified. And God is also Glorified.

---

quote:

---

IF you think God does not take this issue seriously, I would have you look at something...

THis is a story from Genesis 38....

6 And Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, whose name was Tamar.And Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him.

8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother’s wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother’s wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.

10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.

************************************************

For spilling his seed on the ground God slew Judah's second born son.

Man's seed is for God's purpose. God does not like it being spent irreverently.

---

quote:

---

Only the marriage bed is undefiled by the spilling of seed. The marriage is consumated in the union of sex.

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

God even uses this analogy of the spilling of seed to show the child of God verses the one who sins...

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him:

---

Are you saying it's OK to spill the seed on the marriage bed? If so, it's a contradiction of everything else you've written.
 

---

Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 
I realize that I'm already considered "evil" by some, but at least my own children were able to talk with me about sexual issues, as I kept the process open to teaching them about their bodies, and what is right and wrong according to the scriptures, without giving them unwarranted guilt.

Perhaps my nursing experience and comfort in having learned about the normal processes of the human body helped me to not feel uncomfortable about sexual issues.

Anyway, I thank God, that my own children were able to come and talk to me about "private" issues when they were teens.

My daughter is 24, unmarried and never has been pregnant. She has a boyfriend. My son also is 20, and single and has not fathered a child out of wedlock.

I'm not writing to "brag", but to testify that we should not be embarrasssed by Sex, and if we are, we need to get educated, and "Buck UP" for the sake of our children, as they will learn about this issue, but it won't be from you.
 

---

Posted by RioLion (Member # 1875) on :
 
helpforhomeschoolers - in my apologetic studies, your view and use of Onan as a means of 'proving' that masturbation is evil, is one that the Roman Catholic Church uses to induce guilt into their teenagers. In that way, they are able to invade the private and personal lives of people; even appropriating enough facts to blackmail, extort or manipulate the behavior of their own people.

I think that you would be hard pressed to find a commentary that supports your view that Onan was guilty of masturbation.

It is best to consult Christian doctors on how the human body functions. They will tell you - and I can do more digging into the medical literature - that particularly for men, there must be a release as semen builds up in the body.

What you also have is a hormonal release into the blood stream that affects the mind sexually; and that kind of thing is really hard to control if not impossible. If one does not have sexual intercourse, the release will be while you are sleeping if not by masturbation.
 

---

Posted by MentorsRiddle (Member # 2108) on :
 
Rio- You are absolutly correct. The Body does what the body needs to do one way or the other. I have been waiting for someone to say that, and you finally did Good job.

The hormones released into the body causes the mind to function on a different level, some could say almost instinctual, than they normally would.

If the semen is not released from the body medical delimas will result from a build up of this substance.
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Hi WhiteEagle and RIO:

I will address each of your respective questions/and or comments in this one post. Please know that I answer you not to try and convince either of you of anything. It is neither in my power nor is it my desire to convince anyone of anything. I answer only that you might know why I say the things I have said.

Also to you WhiteEagle, in the event that you think me to be one of those, of whom you “realize consider you to be evi”l. This is not my thought or consideration at all. I think that for whatever reason, you and I see God, the scripture, sexuality and probably the world and life in general is very different than the you see these things. I think that this colours the way we respond to the issues of life and the others with whom we interact as walk this road of life on earth. Apart from this I make no judgments about your person period.

Now, on to your question:

quote:

---

Please give scriptures that say we are glorified by marital sex. I think you are adding concepts here too.

---

quote:

---

Here is where you use Onan as proof that masterbation is evil:

---

quote:

---

You've missed the point of the whole story, which has less to do with sex, than with the condition of Onan's heart. He didn't want to have children that wouldn't carry HIS name. He didn't want to HONOR his dead brother. He scammed Tamar, by going into her; as if the consummate this duty, and then withdrew and ejaculated on the ground.

---

quote:

---

Are you saying it's OK to spill the seed on the marriage bed? If so, it's a contradiction of everything else you've written.

---

quote:

---

helpforhomeschoolers - in my apologetic studies, your view and use of Onan as a means of 'proving' that masturbation is evil, is one that the Roman Catholic Church uses to induce guilt into their teenagers. In that way, they are able to invade the private and personal lives of people; even appropriating enough facts to blackmail, extort or manipulate the behavior of their own people.

---

quote:

---

By HFHS:I used Onan to show that the spilling of seed is a serious matter to God. I used Onan to show that sex for the purpose of sex is not ok with GOD. Our having sex is intended by God to bring HIM honor. By spilling his seed on the ground Onan brought dishonor to Tamar when he was commanded by his father Judah and the scriptures to bring her and his dead brother honor. He defiled her when he should have honored her. He committed fornication with her and not marriage. She returned to her father’s house a widow.

---

quote:

---

I think that you would be hard pressed to find a commentary that supports your view that Onan was guilty of masturbation.

---

quote:

---

For spilling his seed on the ground God slew Judah's second born son. Man's seed is for God's purpose. God does not like it being spent irreverently. Sex is a holy thing; created and given to man and woman by God to be shared.It is a physical expression of a spiritual principle that was intended to profit and to edify. When sex occurs as God has intended it, God is glorified. Satan has perverted sex; Satan has told us a lie that we have natural (flesh)urges that must be satisfied whether or not we have a spouse with which to have sex,

---

quote:

---

The Body does what the body needs to do one way or the other. I have been waiting for someone to say that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:

Also to you WhiteEagle, in the event that you think me to be one of those, of whom you “realize consider you to be evi”l. This is not my thought or consideration at all. I think that for whatever reason, you and I see God, the scripture, sexuality and probably the world and life in general is very different than the you see these things. I think that this colours the way we respond to the issues of life and the others with whom we interact as walk this road of life on earth. Apart from this I make no judgments about your person period.

---

quote:

---

Now, on to your question:

quote:

---

Please give scriptures that say we are glorified by marital sex. I think you are adding concepts here too.

---

First of all I see that the scriptures teach that we are now vessels of honor crafted by THe Master Potter.


Our bodies are not ours but HIS, and we are to glorify God with them

1 Corinthians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.

In the Old Testament and in the New, the word “glorifed” means honour. In this scripture below (2 Corinthians 6:8 ), honor is the exact same word, translated “glorified” in John 7:39

The scriptures teach that we honour God, glorify God when we are obedient servants and walk in Spirit and in righteousness.

The scriptures teach that God honors, glorifies those who obey and serve him in obedience and righteousness...

The giving of one’s self in marital sex is serving him in obedience. (1 Corinthians 7:1-5)

John 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

The scriptures teach that marriage is honorable in all things. The marriage bed not defiled. That which is NOT defiled IS holy and honorable and glorious.

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled:

Giving ourselves to become one flesh in marriage is a commandment. In doing so we honor our husband/wife. It is a form of worshiping or reverencing God.

Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

This scripture shows us that the satisfying of our flesh is not wisdom....

Colossians 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

The scripture speaks of sexual expression in the marriage bed being honorable. In no other place is sexual expression said to be honorable. It does not matter that masturbation is not listed specifically, because ONLY sex between a man and wife are honorable. Masturbation is sex between no one; it is between you and you. You may not be your own wife or husband. It takes a man and a woman.

The scripture says if you cannot put your flesh under control then marry. It does not say take care of it your self. And in Col 2:23, it says give no honor to satisfying of the flesh.

---

quote:

---

Here is where you use Onan as proof that masterbation is evil:

---

quote:

---

Sin or evil aren't these the same?

[QB]

quote:

---

I used Onan to show that the spilling of seed is a serious matter to God. I used Onan to show that sex for the purpose of sex is not ok with GOD. Our having sex is intended by God to bring HIM honor. By spilling his seed on the ground Onan brought dishonor to Tamar when he was commanded by his father Judah and the scriptures to bring her and his dead brother honor. He defiled her when he should have honored her. He committed fornication with her and not marriage. She returned to her father’s house a widow.

[QUOTE]You've missed the point of the whole story, which has less to do with sex, than with the condition of Onan's heart. He didn't want to have children that wouldn't carry HIS name. He didn't want to HONOR his dead brother. He scammed Tamar, by going into her; as if the consummate this duty, and then withdrew and ejaculated on the ground.

---

No, I did not miss the point; that is my point. You are just so convinced that I think masturbation is evil that you failed to read my point, which you have just confirmed in this quote above. God gave us sex; he gave it to a husband and a wife; the reason he gave it and the reason he commanded that a woman and a man become one flesh is this...Ephesians 5:30 because members we are of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones;

---

quote:

---

You asked this of me and I am sorry I do not understand what you are asking me?

quote:

---

Are you saying it's OK to spill the seed on the marriage bed? If so, it's a contradiction of everything else you've written.

---

---

Forgive me, but in your previous post I seems you wrote that since the marriage bed was "undefiled" it was the only place to spill ones' seed.


To address the normal functions of the human body:

One can have feelings of sexual desire, naturally, without even trying. It's your normal hormones working. Men seem to have this more often, then most women. Can we control it? Yes we can, but we have to be mature, and not all have reached such maturity. We are NOT animals, yet we do share many things with animals, since we are flesh. We need to eat, we need to use the bathroom. Sexual desires are part of our human body. I just know from experience when I was younger, that if one takes care of it oneself, when one is single, the desire does leave for a while, so one doesn't have to focus on that.

I mean I was 28, divorced with 2 young babies, and I had to work 40 hours a week, and care for the needs of 2 young children, I didn't have time to think about "lust" or desires of the flesh, and didn't try to stimulate this area, yet,guess what, it happens, anyway. Unwanted, not sought for, but just like other bodily processes, one can't pray away what one's body is going to crave.

One doesn't have the leisure or time to rationalize that perhaps my lonliness contributed to these feelings, one needs to address the isssues then and there. I don't see that as a sin, as the sin would have been for me to go seek some man and then marry him to make it correct. My judgement is seeking the right man wouldn't have been very good, as I would be looking out of the wrong reasons, and jumped into a relationship for the wrong reasons.

I can pray it away now, and plus I'm married anyway, so it's not an issue, but not all have reached this level. Plus I'm older now, not in my prime child-bearing years, yet I can easily remember the pull of these desires when I was in my 20's and 30's as being quite a force to contend.

If one is single and doesn't believe they are allowed to "take care of it" themselves, the desire can become a Problem, as their thoughts turn to ways in which to consummate the issue, and it won't be by marriage, unless they happen to be close to that decision anyway.

Again, I view the sole issue of masterbastion, as one means to stay pure, while one is single. It's also important to keep in prayer and close to the Lord, and not elevate the practice to an ends to the means. Actually if one is close to the Lord, one will not feel the need to even do this very often, but to keep people from this release until they are stronger is an undue burden.
 

---

Posted by RioLion (Member # 1875) on :
 
By HFHS:I used Onan to show that the spilling of seed is a serious matter to God. I used Onan to show that sex for the purpose of sex is not ok with GOD. Our having sex is intended by God to bring HIM honor. By spilling his seed on the ground Onan brought dishonor to Tamar when he was commanded by his father Judah and the scriptures to bring her and his dead brother honor. He defiled her when he should have honored her. He committed fornication with her and not marriage. She returned to her father’s house a widow.
-----------------------------------------------
What part of the above do you deny Rio?

Your view is simply not supported by any Bible commentary that I have ever consulted. I do not think that you understand human sexuality.

What Onan employed was simply a means of primitive birth control commonly called 'coitus interruptus'; for the purpose of denying a family for his brother in accordance to ancient laws. There are no good reasons to believe that the 'spilling of seed’ was what was objected to by God.

If you wish to read something else into that story you can, but you probably will not find any support for that view in the non-Roman Catholic literature. Again, it is from the Roman Catholic viewpoint that this story is used to denounce masturbation - the sin being the 'spilling of seed' which almost always occurs in masturbation by males.

In regard to invasion of privacy by the Roman Church, masturbation is considered a mortal sin - a sin punishable by eternal damnation, unless it is confessed to a priest. The priest in turn, having knowledge gained from the confessional, is then in a position to blackmail, extorts or manipulate the behavior of the confessor. Pedophile priest often find as their victims, young teenagers that confess their guilt of masturbation to him.

Linda used 1 John 3:9 to try to prove one of her points - "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for [His seed] remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." The NKJV capitalizes 'his' in 'His seed' while the Old KJV does not. The verse makes sense in the NKJV but really does not in the Old KJV.
 

---

Posted by RioLion (Member # 1875) on :
 
Bat Elohim - "I don't really discuss sexual things with my son. It is a very hard subject for me to discuss because of my past. If this conversation was happening in face to face discussion, I would have turned bright red and walked out of the room a LONG time ago.".

I can understand the testifying of personal experiences, but any good educator would tell you that all you really need to do is to make available the proper literature to your child as he most likely will review it out of natural curiosity.

The old view was for parents not to discuss sex at all leading one to believe that sex was something dirty and that lead many to gross misunderstandings and disappointments in their own marriages.

To remedy those problems, we have sex education in the schools as the subject was really not taught in the home, and now we are faced with a multitude of moral issues not addressed in sex ed.
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Hi WhiteEagle:

It is Ironic to me sometimes how two people can discuss the same subject and come from completely opposite sides seeing the same things. There is a poster that is here from time to time who is arminian in his beliefs, he would say that I am a Calvinist. I love him very much and he is my brother in Christ, but we are total opposites. He once said to me that Calvin and Jacobus Arminius believed the same things but that they approached the same subject from different views, one coming fromt he front the other from behind for example. I always wanted him to explain this; I am sure that John Calvin and Jacobus Arminius would have never agreed that they were of the same beliefs. Daniel never did find the time to share with me what he saw of this, but I have seen it here since that time in other issues and between other people.

As I read through your responses ironically I see this.

quote:

---

Linda, I agree that all these verses tell us to be pure in our bodies, and that we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit. I deleted some passages for the sake of length, but in marriage, I agree that it's God's plan for us, and that marriage is a holy thing to God. A covenant between a man an a woman. I think we are going to be "glorified" by our total walk with God, and not just in marriage, it's about every area of our life, not just marriage or not being married. Paul is describing how marriage is a "picture" of Christ and His Church.

---

quote:

---

Sin or evil aren't these the same?

---

quote:

---

Linda, even if you aren't using Onan to show how masterbation is a sin in this passage, your new response shows you are still putting all the emphasis on the "sexual" aspects of this story, as being the point of the story. I strongly feel that in this story, Onan's behavior was punished because of the reasons I gave. It's about his rebellion to God. He refused to follow the law, and do his duty for his dead brother, to raise up children in his brother's name.

---

quote:

---

Your view is simply not supported by any Bible commentary that I have ever consulted.

---

quote:

---

I do not think that you understand human sexuality.

---

That is ok; I dont think you understand God view of human sexuality.

quote:

---

What Onan employed was simply a means of primitive birth control commonly called 'coitus interruptus'; for the purpose of denying a family for his brother in accordance to ancient laws.

---

quote:

---

There are no good reasons to believe that the 'spilling of seed’ was what was objected to by God.

---

quote:

---

If you wish to read something else into that story you can, but you probably will not find any support for that view in the non-Roman Catholic literature.

---

quote:

---

Again, it is from the Roman Catholic viewpoint that this story is used to denounce masturbation - the sin being the 'spilling of seed' which almost always occurs in masturbation by males.

---

quote:

---

In regard to invasion of privacy by the Roman Church, masturbation is considered a mortal sin - a sin punishable by eternal damnation, unless it is confessed to a priest.

---

quote:

---

The priest in turn, having knowledge gained from the confessional, is then in a position to blackmail, extorts or manipulate the behavior of the confessor. Pedophile priest often find as their victims, young teenagers that confess their guilt of masturbation to him.

---

quote:

---

Linda used 1 John 3:9 to try to prove one of her points - "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for [His seed] remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

---

quote:

---

The NKJV capitalizes 'his' in 'His seed' while the Old KJV does not. The verse makes sense in the NKJV but really does not in the Old KJV.

---

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The KJV makes perfect sense! We do not need man to captialize and "H" to discern God in the scriptures. We need the power of the Holy Spirit. This scripture uses a physical event to illustrate a spiritual concept.

In the carnal man, his seed, which is the seed of his progeny, which is spilled spread sin...from Adam to Christ. (This is a physical concept)

When we are born of God, we are new creatures no longer possessing the seed of our human fathers but are become children of God. Our seed that is HIS seed, is not spilled out, because we no longer walk in flesh, but HIS seed remains within us allowing us to walk in Spirit. (This is a spiritual concept)

If you look at the rest of this text you can see something more...

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (you will note that Onan did not DO that which was righteousness, but also ONAN did not love his brother, else he would have done that which was under the law righteousness.)
 

---

Posted by RioLion (Member # 1875) on :
 
"I don't consult Bible commentary. I am not interested in what man has to say about what God has said. I am interested only in what God has to say."

Bible Commentaries are written by those to whom has been given the ministry of teaching. To ignore them is simply to ignore the gifts God has given to the church. God truly expects us to learn from the teachers that He has given us.

Biblical scholars are very interested, as you are, in what God has to say and they are far more educated in His Word than most of us ever will be. We have much to gain from their works. It is foolish for one to put himself or herself above those who are far more educated and often far more godly when we are.

Without the teaching ministry of the church, you are basically a 'lone ranger' type of Christian, believing that you have whatever it takes to interpret the Scripture apart from the church and bound by your own prejudices and limited schooling. The view that anyone, including you, can go directly to God for all your answers is just not plausible. If you have ears that hear, He will direct you to His church.

Your interpretation of Onan is the Roman Church view; not that of Biblical scholars. And I really do not beleive you understand either the spiritual or natural side of human sexuality.
 

---

Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 
Truce, Linda!

You're probably correct, we will have to agree to disagee.

I do agree with Rio Lion about the body.

God did say "Be fruitful".

He certainly put that desire in there.


Jesus also told the Pharisees, that in heaven there in no marriage between people, and we will be like the angels, who neither marry or or given in marriage.
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Now there is a Roman Church view if I have ever heard one RIO!

It is not the number of years of education that one has that one has that enables us to know God's word. It is the Holy spirit and our hearts.

God is a rewarder of those who seek.

Not one of the Apostles had seminary educations!
A PhD in anything does not ensure a gift of teaching!!!!!!

DL Moody one of the greatest American Bible teachers of modern times had a 7th grade education in a one room school house.

What Moody was in American church history, Spurgeon was in England, and Spurgeon never went to theological school! Spurgeon was a great teacher and preacher, unafraid to challenge error in his own Baptist faith and in the Church of England. He founded an orphanage and a Pastor's School, and was without a doubt an annointed servant of Almighty God. But he did not go to theological school.

God did not establish a hierarchial system in which some were more greatly capable of understanding HIS word than the average man. This was the doing of the Roman Church who kept the scriptures out of the hand of the people for 1100 years!

The scriptures teach that the Holy Spirit will teach us ALL things. God is not a respector of persons and you can know as much of the scriptures as the greatest Bible scholar you can name, if you have a heart of desire and humbleness and prayer.

I am not a lone ranger christian. I simply choose to go to God first to learn the scriptures and not bring the paradigms of other men into my studies before I have learned what God has to say.

The great Hebrew and Greek Scholar William Tyndale who gave his life that we might have the scriptures in English said this to the clergy:

“If God spare my life, ere many years, I will cause a boy that driveth the plough to know more of the Scripture than thou dost.”

He believed that was possible and so do I. We are not to esteem one man over another, we are to esteem God. Yes, God through history has blessed us with many great Bible scholars and teachers and they are a benefit, but if you never had anything to read except the scriptures themselves and a right heart before God, you or any of us, could know as much as any Oxford Graduate about HIM. It is about relationship. It is not about education, it is about relationship.
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
No truce needed Sister WhiteEagle, we were never at war as far as I am concerned.
 

---

Posted by RioLion (Member # 1875) on :
 
"It is not about education, it is about relationship."

I could not agree more as that is what my relationship with Christ has taught me. We had someone in our bible distribution ministry that could not even read but I could get more use out of him than some of the more educated people in the organization. Howbeit, it was clearly a waste of time if you wanted to discuss moral or social issues with him.

As to education, one can readily tell the hillbilly preachers from those that have a formal education as you certainly will learn much more from the latter than the former. The former readily reaching their limits very fast.
In todays complex world, one has to study to show oneself approved not only to God but to those that have needs as well. The first thing that God does to one that He has called is to sent him off to school to learn more about the gospel and the complexities of dealing with people. The people you mentioned were self taught and in a much less complex society, even thro they lacked formal education they did well for what they had.

As to the subject at hand, I rather doubt that you can convince anyone of your position. At least you admit that you know very little about the Roman Catholic view on some of these issues. But that is ok, as we are all someplace on the learning curve and maybe some day you will get up there where I am at.
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
I pray not RIO. I pray not.
 

---

Posted by whitesands777 (Member # 3424) on :
 
This is all very complicated...Sometimes I wonder if it would be better to be born a eunuch...Or become one...Seriously, sometimes I wish that this was a temptation that I did not have to deal with because it is such a battle not only for me but many...Not just self gratification, but making sure you keep your thoughts pure when there is so much temptation in the world...

I mean, what is sexual immorality exactly ?

I hope this is not too graphic...there are certain acts that even seem sexually immoral to me even if it's done between two married people...I mean, do you guys know what I'm talking about ? Some people think that everything is o.k. in the context of marriage...

Is the prevention of conception between two married people sexually immoral ?
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Obviously it would not have been better or God would have made you one; but he made you as you are.

It is tough, and there is great temptation in the world and I don't think we can resist it on our own power. I think HE has to do that in us and part of his doing that is in having us come to a Biblical view of sex and sexuality.

Men are not the only ones that struggle women have just never been in a place in society where we have been comfortable or it has been acceptable for us to speak of our struggles.

The trouble with the perversions of sex that the enemy has divised is that they keep us in bondage to our flesh by desensitizing us and leading us to seek greater sources of physical pleasure without ever really finding satisfaction. Satification does not come because it only comes in realizing that sex and our sexuality is a spiritual gift from God designed to bring him glory through the expression of it in a covenant marriage relationship. As we surrender to God's will even our sexual life, He begins to lead us and HE does not lead us into temptation but delivers us from evil.

When we find ourselves struggling with sexual temptations it is because we are looking at and listening to our flesh and we are not looking at and listening to HIM...not walking is the Spirit.

The more we try to ourselves avoid temptation, the more we are tempted, because our focus is on our flesh and not HIM.

What is moral and what is immoral I think the scriptures show us. Sex in marriage is acceptable to God, commanded by God.

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.


1 Corinthians 7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

Additionally there is a natural use of women sexually and things apart from that "natural use" are vile.

Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

I do also think that the attempts of man to control when life is brought into the world is wrong, though many many here will disagree. I see that God alone holds the right to ordain when a child is to be conceived.
 

---

Posted by Favor Minded (Member # 3636) on :
 

quote:

---

Whitesands writes...

I hope this is not too graphic...there are certain acts that even seem sexually immoral to me even if it's done between two married people...I mean, do you guys know what I'm talking about ? Some people think that everything is o.k. in the context of marriage...

---

I suppose I could "imagine" what you are referring to but I cannot think of anything that would be considered immoral.

If your thoughts stray during, I would have to say there is something MISSING, a true, spirit filled marriage is one that is wholly acceptbale to the Lord and one that you will learn the true meanings of physical love.

God will keep everything as new, just like it was on the honeymoon, everytime...

As for immoral, nothing you could do would be immoral, within boundaries - I mean, one should not invite the neighbors, use magazines or videos, that sort of outside influence ya know...

but short of that, there really is nothing immoral, at all....

And when you come together and discuss fully the desires of each other - Then the sparks / fireworks really fly
 

---

Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by whitesands777:

I hope this is not too graphic...there are certain acts that even seem sexually immoral to me even if it's done between two married people...I mean, do you guys know what I'm talking about ? Some people think that everything is o.k. in the context of marriage...
Is the prevention of conception between two married people sexually immoral ?

---

quote:

---

Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by whitesands777:
I mean, what is sexual immorality exactly ?

I hope this is not too graphic...there are certain acts that even seem sexually immoral to me even if it's done between two married people...I mean, do you guys know what I'm talking about ? Some people think that everything is o.k. in the context of marriage...

Is the prevention of conception between two married people sexually immoral ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SomeGuyInPA:
My wife and i are both saved but i am still quite confused on the subject of if it is ok for us to perform oral acts on each other.. neither of us have a problem with it, and what i mean by that is we both enjoy showing our love in this way.. but i have been wondering if it is wrong in gods eyes to do these things even with my wife?
sorry if this question is out of line but it is an honest question that i would really like an answer to.. and i couldnt think of any other way to ask it..

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crusader:
Ok were gone over sex, and if has been proven by everyone here that having it before your married is a sin. But what about masterbation? Is that also a sin?

---