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Author Topic: Dr. Billy Graham: The Tragedy of A Compromised Ministry
SoftTouch
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quote:
Originally posted by Elisheba:
I know I've got a loooooonnnng way to go.... but I'll get there.

[wiggle7]

LOL I know what you mean! I feel the same way! No matter how much I 'think' I may know, it seems like I've still got So Much more to learn and Grow! I guess it will always be like this as long as we're still in the Flesh [Smile]

This place has been a tremendous help to me [Smile] Especially Helpforhomeschoolers and Caretaker. There are many others here as well who are solidly grounded in God's Word, but I consider these two Brethern to be like Elders for me. When I can't figure something out, I usually go running to one of them LOL I've known them both about two years now and have never known either to post anything that was contrary to God's Word.

I can't wait to read your testimony once you get it done! PRAISE GOD!!!! The Lord pulled out of the New Age lies. I was headed down a very deadly road myself.

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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

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Elisheba
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Thank you, SoftTouch.

I know I'll learn - as you said, it takes time.

I mentioned posting my testimony and I will get to it; it's a difficult one to share without everyone thinking I'm a nut.

I was a practicing witch for several years. I am almost 50 now, and was baptised in a cold Kentucky creek when I was 13 by a Methodist minister.

So many things didn't make sense to me, and I gradually developed a 'build your own' religion that is of the occult.

I suppose basically I'm a prodigal. I'm doing lots of reading and Beth Moore studies. I've found a church I love very much with a supportive church family.

When I see remarks that look harsh and judgmental, I suppose it brings back the feelings of irritation from years ago.

For me, it's a fine line to walk - sharing my experience and relationship with Jesus and not sounding like I'm condemning others if they don't share the beliefs.

I only shredded my ACLU card after I investigated the "NAMBLA" (Man/Boy Love Act). I know I've got a loooooonnnng way to go.... but I'll get there.

[wiggle7]

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HE'S ALIVE!

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SoftTouch
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quote:
Originally posted by Elisheba:
p.s. I promise I'll learn how to use the 'quote' functions. [type]

LOL Don't worry about that, it just takes time [Wink] Just like learning God's Word! [Smile]

I hope you won't let this turn you away from Jesus! He DOES Love you and All People. It's just that HIS Word (The Bible) has very Specific instructions on how we're supposed to handle the majority of issues in life (especially when it comes to His (God's) teaching and sticking to what's in the Bible). The whole reason people have to speak out against certain teachers is because they leave what's in the Bible and start teaching things that God never taught us (or what the Bible calls "Doctrines of Devils"). All he instructed us is in The Bible and we're told not to add to it or take away from it.

I hope you'll read the article on a "What The Bible Says About A Godly Attitude Toward Heresy."

The real danger of False Teachers is to the New Christian who doesn't know what the Bible says. How are you supposed to know what is and isn't in there if you haven't had the time to read or study it? A New Christian needs to rely on Teachers until they become familiar with God's Word and how to check things out for themselves. This leaves the New Christian very vunarable to False Teaching/Teachers and it's up to those Christians who have been at this a while to help with issues of Discernment. The Bible WARNS the Believer that False Christs, False Prophets, and False Teachers WILL be among us (even in our Churches) and that they would increase and their teachings would become more Anti-Christ as we near the End of The Age (and Jesus' Second Coming). (Matt 24)

Whenever I post things about teachers, I always try to make sure there is a 'source' quoted so the reader can check the info out for themselves. I also 'try' to show how what's being taught is Unscriptural (although I'm not always ablt too but there are many here who are Much Better at this!). I do rely on "Discernment Ministries" to see what False Teachings are out there, but I make sure that what they claim is backed up by Scripture and other sources. (This is actually helping me to learn How to Search things out!).

At any rate, we as Disciples of Jesus Christ are Not to Bear False Witness (lie about) against anyone. I would NOT post such things if I were not 100% what was being said was true.

I hope you'll check every thing out yourself. It's gonna take Time. Daily Study and Prayer, but I think Our Lord and Savior is Definitely Worth It! [Smile]

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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

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Elisheba
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Every thing is laid out in this thread. I know it's long, but if you want to understand the accusations, it might help to read through the whole thread.

The point is that he has Left the Narrow Road and has led many to the Broad Way that leads to death. This should be a major concern for all who Love God's Word and His Ways.
-------------------------------

Hi,

Actually, I did read the whole thread. I meant I probably won't learn everything about Christianity as applied to myself, although I intend to try.

As for Clinton not asking for forgiveness; we don't know that. I read that his wife slapped him and I hope she did. But if he went into his closet and prayed, there's no way we would ever know that, or should know. It's between him and God.

I just felt that this thread was getting very judgmental toward Rev. Graham so I thought I'd pipe in. One of the things that turned me off Christianity years ago was judgmental people. Billy Graham could have suffered small strokes, or even had dementia coming on 20 years ago, that would cause him to act 'differently'.

Or perhaps not. If not, some people would describe him as getting more mellow, others might say he's strayed from the 'straight and narrow.'

Either way, God is in charge of it.

~Elisheba~

p.s. I promise I'll learn how to use the 'quote' functions. [type]

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HE'S ALIVE!

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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Elisheba:

As much as I appreciate your gentle and forgiving spirit, I think if a grizzly bear was in the process of mauling you to death, you'd still be trying to convince us how sweet and loving the bear really is.

From a person who ended up standing on a chair because my kids had a fake wind-up mouse running around on the floor, I can't imagine that one in my wildest dreams.  -
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hardcore
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quote:
Elisheba:
Hello Hardcore,

You really live up to your name, [Smile]



Ha! Yes, I most surely do. Nobody will ever accuse me of being passive, gentle, and patient when it comes to discussion - all areas that I most assuredly could use some work in.

quote:
First let me say I have so much to learn there's no way I'll get it all before I leave this earth.


I couldn't agree more. I'm afraid sometimes I give the opposite impression.

quote:
I had to wonder what good things could come of the changes several of you describe in Rev. Graham. My mother would be a good example. She had a couple of tragedies in her life that turned her away from church and God - she's a liberal Democrat who has nothing good to say about our current administration. When she heard that Rev. Graham had good things to say about the Clintons, she started listening and broadened her outlook a little bit. Now she's going to church with me.
What good news. The thought of our Lord using Bill Clinton for his purpose makes me giggle!

quote:
I'm not saying that Bill Clinton behaved in any way that was Christ-like. However, I don't believe anyone is immune from temptation and sin, perhaps just different ones from what he fell prey to. Also, anything I would do is not likely to make the international news since I'm not a public figure.

When President Kennedy was in office, we're now finding out that he indulged in some of the same behaviors. The difference was the era in which he lived. The press more or less 'protected' politicians - since Watergate that has drastically changed and the press digs and prods until they find something negative to report. I recall an interview Oprah Winfrey did with the late John Kennedy, Jr. She asked what his father would have done in this day and time, in a situation such as the Clinton scandal.

John Kennedy replied that his father more than likely would not have run for public office if he were alive today.

You are right. None of us are immune to temptation and sin. Clinton is a sinner just like the rest of us, unfortunately he doesn't seem to have realized it yet. What I found more tragic than his actual shenanigans was the fact that so many Americans excused his behavior and just didn't care. If Bush appears to be drawing a breath incorrectly, he's practically crucified for it. Side note - I'm not a Bush fan either, but the hypocrisy is laughable.

quote:
As I said, I haven't listened to Rev. Graham preach for a long time, so I only know the reports of what he said. However, his coming across as a bit more reasonable and non-judgmental was of benefit to some people, including my mother. He made them see that not all Christians are narrow minded, judgmental bigots. Unfortunately, that's the reputation we sometimes acquire among non-believers.
You make a good point. And I hope that I've made it clear (in other posts) that I don't discard the good he has done despite his fall from solid doctrine and not discipling supposed converts correctly. I am of the firm belief that God can use any of us in spite of our stupid selves!

quote:
I didn't know he was 86. I knew he had to be getting up there.
I saw a picture of him on the front page of the newspaper and was shocked at how old he looked. He doesn't look nearly as good as my 94 (95 in two months) year old grandmother. Hopefully, he'll get some well deserved rest in the coming days.

quote:
I hope I'm able to climb a tree while HisGrace is telling the grizzly bear how nice it's coat is... [Smile]
Knowing me, I'd try to punch him square in the nose and be the first one eaten! [Eek!]
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SoftTouch
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Hi Elisheba and Welcome to the Board,

I definitely understand wanting to see the best in people we've known all our lives and have even looked up to as an example. But you did say that you wern't familiar with what was going on. Did you read the first post in this thread, or some of the others explaining what the issues are?

Graham is on record as saying that he believes that people who seek God, but don't know the name or person of Jesus Christ are saved (this is a paraphrase of what was said, but you can find the quote of the transcript somewhere on page two of this thread I believe). This is in direct opposition to what the Bible says.

As far as Clinton is concerned, how Graham could possibly stand by a man who has been a sexual predator most of his public life (and who has Never Once asked Forgiveness - but did make a point to hold a Bible high for the Press)... a man whom is surrounded my Mysterious deaths of many people close to him (who came out against him). How Graham could speak so highly of this man and even say that Clinton would make a fine Evangelist should he ever decide to go into the profession... Mind Blowing.

Then there are the issues of the people who come forward at Graham's crusades. Instead of "Making Disciples" (As the Bible Clearly says to do), he sends many to Roman Catholic Churches (which are totally UnScriptural).

Every thing is laid out in this thread. I know it's long, but if you want to understand the accusations, it might help to read through the whole thread.

The point is that he has Left the Narrow Road and has led many to the Broad Way that leads to death. This should be a major concern for all who Love God's Word and His Ways.

Those who Know their Bibles have already "tried the Spirit."

quote:
1 John 4:1"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits, whether they be of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world."
Then we are told to "Mark Them."

[quote][i]Romans 16:17 "Now I beseech you, brethern, Mark them which cause divisions and ofences Contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."

One thing you will Never find in the Bible is a call to Defend anyone who teaches Contrary to God's Word.

There is another thread in this section called" What The Bible Says About A Godly Attitude Twards Heresy" that explains how we are to Biblically deal with those who teach falsely.

--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

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Elisheba
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Originally posted by HisGrace:
I think we should give Billy Graham a break. After all he is 86 yrs old and may not express himself as accurately as he should.

I have always found him to be the least compromising preacher I have ever heard, and his planted seed is now showing in his son Franklin.

We are now seeing a more frail Billy Graham , with multiple medical problems, and many interpret his more mellow and loving nature as compromising. I see the gentler side of Jesus in him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, HisGrace. It is not "his more mellow and loving nature" that we see as compromising. He started down the ecumenical path waaaay before he was old and frail. The evidence has been presented quite clearly. You simply refuse to acknowledge it.

I don't think that any of us have tried to refute or ignore the good he has done, but history shows us another side to him as well.

As much as I appreciate your gentle and forgiving spirit, I think if a grizzly bear was in the process of mauling you to death, you'd still be trying to convince us how sweet and loving the bear really is.
-------------------------------------
[cool_shades]
Hello Hardcore,

You really live up to your name, [Smile]

First let me say I have so much to learn there's no way I'll get it all before I leave this earth.

I had to wonder what good things could come of the changes several of you describe in Rev. Graham. My mother would be a good example. She had a couple of tragedies in her life that turned her away from church and God - she's a liberal Democrat who has nothing good to say about our current administration. When she heard that Rev. Graham had good things to say about the Clintons, she started listening and broadened her outlook a little bit. Now she's going to church with me.

I'm not saying that Bill Clinton behaved in any way that was Christ-like. However, I don't believe anyone is immune from temptation and sin, perhaps just different ones from what he fell prey to. Also, anything I would do is not likely to make the international news since I'm not a public figure.

When President Kennedy was in office, we're now finding out that he indulged in some of the same behaviors. The difference was the era in which he lived. The press more or less 'protected' politicians - since Watergate that has drastically changed and the press digs and prods until they find something negative to report. I recall an interview Oprah Winfrey did with the late John Kennedy, Jr. She asked what his father would have done in this day and time, in a situation such as the Clinton scandal.

John Kennedy replied that his father more than likely would not have run for public office if he were alive today.

As I said, I haven't listened to Rev. Graham preach for a long time, so I only know the reports of what he said. However, his coming across as a bit more reasonable and non-judgmental was of benefit to some people, including my mother. He made them see that not all Christians are narrow minded, judgmental bigots. Unfortunately, that's the reputation we sometimes acquire among non-believers.

I didn't know he was 86. I knew he had to be getting up there.

I hope I'm able to climb a tree while HisGrace is telling the grizzly bear how nice it's coat is... [Smile]

~Elisheba~

--------------------
HE'S ALIVE!

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SoftTouch
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quote:
[I]Rev. 2: 12And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
13I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
15So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.
16Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

17He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Rev 2:18And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
19I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

24But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
25But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28And I will give him the morning star.
29He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Rev. 3: 14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.



--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
I have always found him to be the least compromising preacher I have ever heard

When he preaches he always reminds me of my Wesleyan Methodist roots, when the fire and brimstone preachers used to come to town for revivals. [Smile]
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hardcore
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
I think we should give Billy Graham a break. After all he is 86 yrs old and may not express himself as accurately as he should.

I have always found him to be the least compromising preacher I have ever heard, and his planted seed is now showing in his son Franklin.

We are now seeing a more frail Billy Graham , with multiple medical problems, and many interpret his more mellow and loving nature as compromising. I see the gentler side of Jesus in him.

No, HisGrace. It is not "his more mellow and loving nature" that we see as compromising. He started down the ecumenical path waaaay before he was old and frail. The evidence has been presented quite clearly. You simply refuse to acknowledge it.

I don't think that any of us have tried to refute or ignore the good he has done, but history shows us another side to him as well.

As much as I appreciate your gentle and forgiving spirit, I think if a grizzly bear was in the process of mauling you to death, you'd still be trying to convince us how sweet and loving the bear really is.

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HisGrace
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I think we should give Billy Graham a break. After all he is 86 yrs old and may not express himself as accurately as he should.

I have always found him to be the least compromising preacher I have ever heard, and his planted seed is now showing in his son Franklin.

We are now seeing a more frail Billy Graham , with multiple medical problems, and many interpret his more mellow and loving nature as compromising. I see the gentler side of Jesus in him.

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Elisheba
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It's been many years since I listened to Billy Graham preach. My grandfather anxiously awaited the Billy Graham Crusades on TV and I watched with him when I was a child.

I fell away from Christianity (drastically) over the years so a lot of the discussions here are unfamiliar to me, but I'm slowly catching up.

Rev. Graham is elderly now. He always seemed to me to be a man who looked for the best in people and tried to be non-judgmental. Also his age could account for the behavior that has people worried that he's saying the wrong things according to the Bible.

Sometimes I think we tend to place people like him on pedestals and are then horrified when they don't behave as we believe they should.

~Elisheba~

--------------------
HE'S ALIVE!

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hardcore
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Well stated HFHS. And thank you for having the courage to speak the truth, knowing full well the consequences. Paul is indeed a good role model, huh?
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Hi Peh: You know I can relate to what you testify about the loss of heros and school prayer and the other events that you listed over the years. I personally think it is of no value that we drag Kennedy through the mud for his impropriety or even Nixon for that matter. People make mistakes and some really great men have made mistakes. These men did not hold themselves up to the world as preachers of the Gospel.

Deb is not the one who posted this article; I am. I posted it because I do believe that Graham has compromised the faith and the word and I did not always believe this. I said in another post that I have loved Billy Graham and I have; for me as a child he was a great man, I have many tapes of his crusades and books about him and at least one that I can think of that he wrote. It gives me no pleasure to hear these things said in this article. But I believe they needed to be said and this is why - I have copied this from an earlier post and it is my heart.

I knew when I posted this article that it would be controversial. I did not post it to tear down Billy Graham, I pray that Billy Graham will repent of his apostate views before his death.

I posted it because I think it speaks to this scripture by Paul:

1 Corinthians 9:27 but I chastise my body, and bring it into servitude, lest by any means, having preached to others—I myself may become disapproved.

I always found this to be an intersting thing for Paul to speak of. I so admire Paul and I cannot imagine that Paul would ever have been able to come to a point that he might no longer be useful to the Gospel. Yet Paul in the back of his mind somewhere kept this thought and knew that he would have to remain true to the Gospel all his days to be approved.

I know that Graham was one who went to great lengths to no ever put himself in a position to be accused of evil in the ways that most of us think of evil....he never could have been accused of physical impropriety for example. His accounting methods and the records of his ministry were always kept with the upmost detail; his own salary and such modest...we could go on for a long time over the things that Graham did to keep his body in subjection and never be in a place to be accused of sin that the Gospel be hurt.

But the sins of the flesh are not just the obvious. We also have to keep in subjection our mind - we can not embrace doctrines of demons.

I do think that over the years there has been a steady progression with Graham to abandon the truth and I post this because I want to show that it can happen to any one of us. We can be decieved. The enemy can lead us down the wrong path. I personally believe that for the elect he can only lead so far before God steps in and interviens, but that is another discussion and is apart from my point of posting this article.

My point is that we must not take the enmy or his ability to deceive too lightly; even Paul perhaps the greatest preacher to the Gentiles of all time understood that he could stumble and fall.

We look at the Great Billy Graham and say...cant happen look at all whom he led to Christ and I yes look. Billy Graham is a man, and men do not lead people to Christ - God draws men to himself and he uses men.., Men do not get people saved...the power of HIS Holy Spirit Gets people saved when men sow the WORD of God.

In the end, it is those that endure that shall be saved. Let us all pray that we be found to endure, as Paul did.

Sometimes even Great Men do not endure.


The truth is not one person that was ever saved at a Billy Graham crusade was saved or drawn by Graham. God draws and God saves.

I dont care how great you are or how much good works that you do for the Lord, if you hold yourself up to the world as a preacher or teacher or evangelist, then you have to be accountible to the Gospel and if you error in preaching the whole Gospel, then you should expect and encourage admonishment, Paul did.

For a man in this position to even give the idea that he might be preaching that you can be saved in anyway without belief in Jesus Christ - The Jesus Christ of the Bible, then this is wrong.

You may not agree that he has done this, but he has done this for more than a few of us, and so it is done.

Even if you disagree with that, there are other issues. The issue of catholicism is another. There are many heros that gave their lives through horrible persecutions to bring to the light the false Gospel of Cathoicism. How can I in good conscience take a newborn babe in Christ and deliver him to Catholicism? I can't. But this was done as a practice. Did Paul deliver newborn gentile Christians to the Judaizers for learning to be disciples? I think not. He spoke against the error of the Judaizers.

Christianity is embracing catholicism. This is a sad day. We should be on our knees to have those precious souls who are lost in Catholicism delivered and we instead embrace their apostasy.

This great man who gave his life to evangelising and once himself thought for sure that the WCC would elect the antichrist, in the end embraced catholicism and the WCC and their joint movement toward eccumenism.

Eccumenism is the religion of the antichrist in the making. You cannot join with God that which God abhors!

Anyway... I will get off the soap box; I just wanted to point out that I am the one who posted this article and I take responsibilty for the posting of it. It was posted with intent that I have stated, and I find it very sad that it is made to be something it is not.

This post was never about bashing Billy Graham, this post was about the fact that Paul himself knew that he himself could after having preached his whole life become a detriment to the very Gospel that he loved if he did not take care that this not happen.

We need to keep focused who does the drawing and the saving and it is not men; all men can stumble; and many many men can and will be decieved and some of them great ones; we cannot esteem any man above what is written.

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SoftTouch
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quote:
Originally posted by Gramajo320:
...discernment certainly helps...

On this point we agree.

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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

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Gramajo320
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There are many times that hearing something from someone else such as your daughter's preacher doesn't mean it's true either. If you hear it correctly first hand from the individual, John Osteen, in question for yourself then that is a different situation entirely. In many cases that's a good thing to remember. Also discernment certainly helps more.

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Gramajo320

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TEXASGRANDMA
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Lets see I have been to many Billy Graham Crusades and I have attended Lakewood Church. I guess I qualify. I forgot, my daughter's Preacher who was a friend of John Osteeen said from the publit 5 years ago that John had compromised his belifs in order for his Church to grow to big numbers. He said he had caution him personaly about this behavior and asked his Church to pray for John to get things right with God.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

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Gramajo320
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Unless one knows absolutely everything about each and every church and has been attending those churches and also all of Billy Graham's crusades to learn for themselves then one should be careful about judging. A lot of information that is put out on the internet is full of false information and misinformation; therefore one must have a lot of discernment before judging others. Just because it is written and put out on the internet please remember that doesn't automatically make it become the gospel truth and it shouldn't be taken as such. One needs to think carefully about what is written and use discernment as to its creditability before trying to convince others that it's the gospel truth. Unfortunately very few want to take the time to make certain that what they are told and what they read has the creditablity to be held true.
Truth is based on facts not suppositions.

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Gramajo320

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SoftTouch
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And Peh, I hope you won't miss my reply to your last post to me... it's close to the bottom of page two.

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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

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SoftTouch
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quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
Sending people that come up to be saved back to the Catholic Church or to the Jewish Synagogue is just wrong. The reason they came up in the first place was that they were not getting the message of the plan of salvation.
His comment of not going to attempt to convert other religions is just plain wrong. When people of other faiths came to Jesus, he did not tell them sorry; you need to go back to your home Church.

I have talked to far too many Catholics who think that they are going to Heaven because they were baptized as a baby. I talked to a young girl of 13, who bragged about using the Lord's name in vain every day. She said that she was a good Catholic. I talked to great link with a sweet young lady who told me that as long as she went to mass on Saturday and prayed to Mary that she was saved. These people need the truth.
When a Bible believing Preacher has these people come up for salvation, then they should attempt to convert them. What is the crusade for, if not to convert people?

I am at a lost for words to describe how frustrating it is for me to see people condone this type of behavior by a Preacher.

betty

AMEN Sister Betty! AMEN!

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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

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TEXASGRANDMA
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Sending people that come up to be saved back to the Catholic Church or to the Jewish Synagogue is just wrong. The reason they came up in the first place was that they were not getting the message of the plan of salvation.
His comment of not going to attempt to convert other religions is just plain wrong. When people of other faiths came to Jesus, he did not tell them sorry; you need to go back to your home Church.

I have talked to far too many Catholics who think that they are going to Heaven because they were baptized as a baby. I talked to a young girl of 13, who bragged about using the Lord's name in vain every day. She said that she was a good Catholic. I talked to great link with a sweet young lady who told me that as long as she went to mass on Saturday and prayed to Mary that she was saved. These people need the truth.
When a Bible believing Preacher has these people come up for salvation, then they should attempt to convert them. What is the crusade for, if not to convert people?

I am at a lost for words to describe how frustrating it is for me to see people condone this type of behavior by a Preacher.

betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

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Gramajo320
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The following is a prayer that is in a book titled Knowing Christ. This prayer is on page 16 of this book. I received this a little while back.
Dear Father,

I know that I am a sinner and need your
forgiveness. I believe that Christ died
in my place, paying the penalty for my
sin. I now invite Jesus Christ to come
into my heart and life as my personal
and Savior. I am willing by your help
to follow and obey Christ as the Lord of
my life.

This prayer and countless scriptures are in a book
written by Billy Graham. Billy Graham has not ever been a false prophet and he never will be.

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Gramajo320

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Caretaker
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In 1956 Graham said, “THEN WE’LL SEND THEM TO THEIR OWN CHURCHES--ROMAN CATHOLIC, PROTESTANT OR JEWISH” (New York Evening Journal, Sept. 18, 1956). The next year he told the same thing to the San Francisco News (Nov. 11, 1957). The Graham Association has turned the names of tens of thousands of people over to Roman Catholic and modernistic Protestant churches. The vice-chairman for the Graham 1984 Vancouver, British Columbia crusade stated: “If Catholics step forward there will be no attempt to convert them and their names will be given to the Catholic church nearest their homes” (David Cline, Vancouver Sun, Oct. 5, 1984). The names of 2,100 Catholics who came forward during 1989 London crusades were referred to Catholic churches.

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A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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Gramajo320
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Peh, I want to thank you very much for your posting and to say I really appreciate it. God bless you!

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Gramajo320

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Gramajo320
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The negative articles that are being found on the internet are having a profound impact in an extremely wrong way. One should think of how others view them especially guests who view this board and some who might have thought of joining but have now decided not to do so.

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Gramajo320

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SoftTouch
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Peh, perhaps you missed this. I will overlook your Personal Attack as it really doesn't matter.

quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch: ... Did you even read my reply to your last question?

Am I a False Teacher because I couldn't remember word for word what I'd seen on a DVD? I did post the entire Transcript once I found it on the internet. Let's look at those words again...

quote:
GRAHAM: Well, Christianity and being a true believer--you know, I think there's the Body of Christ. This comes from all the Christian groups around the world, outside the Christian groups. I think everybody that loves Christ, or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ. And I don't think that we're going to see a great sweeping revival, that will turn the whole world to Christ at any time. I think James answered that, the Apostle James in the first council in Jerusalem, when he said that God's purpose for this age is to call out a people for His name. And that's what God is doing today, He's calling people out of the world for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ because they've been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts that they need something that they don't have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think that they are saved, and that they're going to be with us in heaven.
Ok, I got the words "think" and "Believe" wrong, and I had the wording wrong about "Rather they know Christ or not" - but isn't that the same as "They may not even know the name of Jesus?" isn't this what he's saying? That these people who Don't Know Jesus are Saved? That's not what the Bible Says.
Did I NOT Admit my Error in wording? Did I not correct what I meant (which is still the same thing, no matter how it's worded).

I Did Answer your question about the Biblical President of Naming Names. Did you miss that? If there were other questions asked of me that I didn't answer, feel free to point them out and I'll be happy to answer them as best I can.

If you want to know WHY I expose such things, read my new Thread on "Seeing The Apostacy..." in this section (especially the beginning paragraphs), and also Read Ephesians 5:11

--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

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Gramajo320
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Peh,

A big amen to your posting and I certainly agree with what you've posted and I truly thank you for doing so. The postings are true. God bless and have a very blessed evening and night!

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Gramajo320

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peh
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Know what, softouch, I haven't cared for your tone on a few of your replies, but up until now, I've kept it to myself.

quote:
"Good Grief... "And another thing..." ??? Peh, Either I'm reading your words wrong, or you're trying to sound condesending on purpose? There is a definite tone to the last couple of posts you've posted to me. Did you even read my reply to your last question?"
Condescending? I don't know. I think tired is a better word. And don't bother telling me I need not read your posts again. Now that was a condescending thing to say.

You mentioned someone else's "duck"ing of one of your questions, but I haven't noticed that you answer anyone's direct inquiries yourself.

In fact, many of the things you say about others, including the people you post website articles about, are reflective of your own words and tone and therefore apparently of you.

Let me see if I can broach this subject with you again, you said "The Interview I saw was between Robert Schuller and Billy Graham. I SAW and HEARD Billy Graham say that "God is calling a people out for himself among the Muslim, Buddists, Hindu's, etc. Rather they Know Christ of not. I Believe They Are Saved." (That is a paraphrase of the VIDEO CLIP I Watched... therefore I can't give you a Link back). "

Then in another place you said, "Now, you can call me a liar if you wish, but I Testify that He Said This. I heard and saw it."

In fact, in a later post, you reported that what he actually said was "I think everybody that loves Christ, or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ."

So he didn't say what you had reported you SAW and HEARD him say, and even Testified that you Heard Him Say.

Therefore I ask you, you who print such slanderous material from dubious sources and accuse people who are in the public eye in Christianity of such besmirching sayings, and doings, how is it that what you report can be false and there is no mention of your error? Not so much as an apology? Making light of the error? Or is it that it is only a "little" mistake when you misquote, misrepresent and then don't even bother to retract the error but a dangerous and downright heinous crime when someone else says something you believe to be in error?

Before I give you a chance to reply, I also want to speak about how bringing things out in the open, and by golly, calling it like you see it, protecting Truth and God, how all that works out in the long run.

Back in the late 50's, hear me now, whether you were there or not, the generation of which I am part had a few heroes. We saluted the flag, honored the President of the US, honored our military men, and believed that men were usually trustworthy and honorable. We were not so naive as to believe everyone was any of that, but overall, there was a sense that if we held up our end of the deal, others would as well.

Then the 60's came along, and there were those among us who greatly wished to make all us naive dummies see that there was no honor anywhere. That all adults, especially those in the military and in government, were horrible and the "system" at fault for all manner of ills.

And we all are living witnesses of how well the exposure that started there has worked out. There are families that were separated by ideology back then that have never been re-united. Prayer in school was lost. Abortion was approved.

An unarmed student at Kent State who was my age at the time was shot down by a National Guardsman armed with a military rifle. That for me, and I assume for many others, was the playing of taps for any faith left in America the Beautiful.

President Kennedy was "discovered" to have been a womanizing associate of hoodlums and the "news" gleefully shared with all of us, whether we would hear it or not.

So why am I posting about this? Because the loss of heroes started the 60's. The media had a new "victim" as many times a day as they wished. No one was off limits, and aren't we so much better for having received all that news?

I can hear someone already preparing a reply that says something to the effect of, "yeah, but that has nothing to do with the "false teaching" subject." Doesn't it?

Anyone wish they'd never seen Billy Graham's name on this forum? As for Joel Osteen, who's he?(rhetorical question only). Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland? A little bit better known but hardly objects of veneration. If they were to be found false teachers it would not much effect the overall view of Christianity. But now you've brought in Billy Graham's name into your circle of "false teachers".

Do you really believe you are doing any of us or God a service? What about those who were saved at a Billy Graham crusade? Can they at all trust their salvation as genuine when they got prayed for and said the sinners prayer under a, gasp, "false teacher"?

Anyone else as tired as I am of the frenzy to get the news out? To expose and strip of honor? Anyone?

I'll say this one more time, it is not necessary to chip away at someone's reputation. If the teaching is false, show us how it is. No names need be mentioned unless it is asked for. Show us what the truth is, if you know it. And let the Spirit be the one who leads into all truth.

--------------------
St. Peh
I don't know everything but I know the One Who does.

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SoftTouch
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What is the Danger in this teaching?


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BILLY GRAHAM: God's purpose for this age is to call out a people for His name. And that's what God is doing today, He's calling people out of the world for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ because they've been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts that they need something that they don't have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think that they are saved, and that they're going to be with us in heaven.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I found an Excellent Article here: http://www.diakrisis.org/challenge_to_cm_.htm

Here are a couple of Exepts. One from the beginning of the article, the other from the end. The middle section of this article goes on to explain how this New Doctrine of those who do not know Jesus Christ being saved has come about. This is a lot of what I've been saying about how the New Age teachings have infiltrated the church and are changing the Biblical Doctrines into Doctrines of Devils. I hope you'll read that whole article:

quote:
PROLOGUE

Is it necessary for people to know about Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the Son of God born in Bethlehem, in order for them to be saved and receive eternal life? Will a pagan who does not believe in Christ but who lives a religious and moral life -- devoted to his or her “God” and practising charitable works - be excluded from heaven? Is it right to refer to unbelievers as being “lost”? Is it only Christians who have the indwelling Holy Spirit or Christ living in them? These are some of the questions being asked today by many evangelicals in church leadership and on the mission field.

Prior to the last few decades such questions were easily answered with a resounding “Yes!” in each case, in the full knowledge of scriptural support. But as relativism, sentiment and psychobabble have become the dominant influences in the life of the Church, many are no longer willing to be guided by the plain teaching of the Bible concerning eternal salvation and eternal condemnation, but instead they have substituted either what they “feel” to be correct or whatever harmonizes with the prevailing trends of the day.

We are now in the process of a massive shift in the religious life of this planet. At the heart of this process is the Hegelian notion that all religions essentially worship the same God and are merely different pathways to ultimate truth and perfection. This notion challenges the uniqueness and exclusiveness of the Christian message concerning the Lord Jesus Christ and the need for the Gospel to be preached to all nations. It is part of a dark, universal process by which the very fabric of the body of truth we call Christianity is being torn apart.

In this brief paper we shall look, first, at the main influences which have led to the systematic global breakdown of the exclusive nature of the Christian Gospel. Second, we shall examine the way that popular teachings in the Church today about the indwelling Christ or Holy Spirit in unbelievers correspond closely with those of the occult and New Age spirituality which have so besotted the world. Third, we shall address the question of whether it is possible for a person who hasn’t heard about Christ to be saved.

quote:
EPILOGUE

Popular ideas about a universal Christ or Holy Spirit unconditionally indwelling people will intensify during the coming years and will be increasingly professed even by leading evangelicals. Most church members today are highly confused about all this, with different ideas coming at them from all quarters - especially from well-known personalities on the lecture circuit: deceptive chameleons who say out of one side of their mouths that no one can be saved apart from Christ, but who say out of the other that unbelievers can have Christ indwelling them anyway.

The obvious solution is to seek out pastors and teachers who will ensure that “we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting...” (Eph.4:14-15). Neither should we allow our beliefs to be coloured by fashion or sentiment but only by what is plainly revealed in the whole of Scripture. The right to become the children of God is granted only “to those who believe in [Christ’s] name” (Jn.1:12). It can only be in Satan’s interests to teach otherwise, as the fallen angel, in his closing days, attempts to prevent souls from being saved by the proclamation and reception of the Christian Gospel.

New Age spirituality authors and teachers make a great deal out of the fact that they see the worldwide Ecumenical Movement as being the main tool to bring Christian churches into the planned global New World Order Religion. Listen to the way in which Djwal Khul, the discarnate “Ascended Master” of the occultists and New Age spirituality people, prophesies the planned Ecumenical Movement, speaking through the influential theosophist Alice Bailey, in her 1934 book, “The Externalization of the Hierarchy”:

“Eventually, there will appear the Church Universal, and its definite outlines will appear towards the end of [the 20th] century. This Church will be nurtured into activity by the Christ and His disciples...when the true second coming has been accomplished. No date for the advent do I set, but the time will not be long. The Christian church, in its many branches, can serve as a St. John the Baptist, as a voice crying in the wilderness, and as a nucleus through which world illumination may be accomplished... Its work is intended to be the holding of a broad platform...”.[36]

The “Second Coming” of the “Christ” of the New Spirituality people is what true Christians will recognise as the revealing of the Antichrist. The preparation for that time is surely taking place in what we see today through the “fascism of enforced oneness” in ecumenism, interfaithism and other developments in the religious and national life of this planet. The present castration of the witness of the Gospel through the notion that one does not need to believe in Christ in order to be saved is also a major component in this diverse time of active eschatological preparation.

Anyone in spiritual leadership (e.g. pastors, teachers, elders, directors of Christian organisations) who is not preparing people to mount a defence against the all-out assault on the unique nature of faith in Christ, as effected through the Illuminati-inspired Interfaith or Ecumenical Movements and other promoters of the New Spirituality has abdicated responsibility and is already contributing to the Great Apostasy now in progress. What many fail to realise is that the pretended realisation of peace on this planet toward which these movements are working will merely serve as a harbinger of divine wrath. As the Apostle Paul states:

“For it is when they say, ‘Peace and safety!’ that sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober” (1 Thess.5:3-6).



--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

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helpforhomeschoolers
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Paul took to task Peter & James for false teaching at the Jerusalem counsel; probably every one of has taught something falsely. Peter & James did what a Holy SPirit led person walking in the spirit does when confronted with his error. They corrected themselves or repented of what they taught and acknowledged the truth.

Had they not done this, would Paul have continued to embrace them? Did Paul ever embrace their error?

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SoftTouch
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quote:
Originally posted by peh:
And another thing:

You posted:
quote:
In this interview Billy Graham says: "God is calling a people out for himself. Among the Muslim, Buddist, Hindu, all people, rather they know Christ or not. I believe they are saved." (paraphrase)
Note: in the word for word Mr. Graham said "I think there's the Body of Christ. This comes from all the Christian groups around the world, outside the Christian groups. I think everybody that loves Christ, or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ. And I don't think that we're going to see a great sweeping revival, that will turn the whole world to Christ at any time. I think James answered that, the Apostle James in the first council in Jerusalem, when he said that God's purpose for this age is to call out a people for His name."

So are you a false teacher because you posted originally that he said, "rather they know Christ or not. I believe they are saved" and he did not say that?

Good Grief... "And another thing..." ??? Peh, Either I'm reading your words wrong, or you're trying to sound condesending on purpose? There is a definite tone to the last couple of posts you've posted to me. Did you even read my reply to your last question?

Am I a False Teacher because I couldn't remember word for word what I'd seen on a DVD? I did post the entire Transcript once I found it on the internet. Let's look at those words again...

quote:
GRAHAM: Well, Christianity and being a true believer--you know, I think there's the Body of Christ. This comes from all the Christian groups around the world, outside the Christian groups. I think everybody that loves Christ, or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ. And I don't think that we're going to see a great sweeping revival, that will turn the whole world to Christ at any time. I think James answered that, the Apostle James in the first council in Jerusalem, when he said that God's purpose for this age is to call out a people for His name. And that's what God is doing today, He's calling people out of the world for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ because they've been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts that they need something that they don't have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think that they are saved, and that they're going to be with us in heaven.
Ok, I got the words "think" and "Believe" wrong, and I had the wording wrong about "Rather they know Christ or not" - but isn't that the same as "They may not even know the name of Jesus?" isn't this what he's saying? That these people who Don't Know Jesus are Saved? That's not what the Bible Says.

--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

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peh
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And another thing:

You posted:
quote:
In this interview Billy Graham says: "God is calling a people out for himself. Among the Muslim, Buddist, Hindu, all people, rather they know Christ or not. I believe they are saved." (paraphrase)
Note: in the word for word Mr. Graham said "I think there's the Body of Christ. This comes from all the Christian groups around the world, outside the Christian groups. I think everybody that loves Christ, or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ. And I don't think that we're going to see a great sweeping revival, that will turn the whole world to Christ at any time. I think James answered that, the Apostle James in the first council in Jerusalem, when he said that God's purpose for this age is to call out a people for His name."

So are you a false teacher because you posted originally that he said, "rather they know Christ or not. I believe they are saved" and he did not say that?

I clearly see in your paraphrase and in the word for word you posted that Mr. Graham said "God is calling a people out for Himself." Out. Out of what? Muslim, Buddist, Hindu, from where would they be coming out?

You highlighted the word for word as "I think there's the Body of Christ. This comes from all the Christian groups around the world, outside the Christian groups. I think everybody that loves Christ, or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ", but missed the phrase just before it which states "I think everybody that loves Christ, or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ"...how could you miss that? How can you disagree with it? Is not the only way to be saved through belief in and love for Christ?

Did you not "come out" of something to "come into" Christ? I know I did.

And let me tell you a true experience of my own: I was praying for my landlord one day, knowing he was a drunkard and a Catholic. And I had this idea that I needed to pray for him to stop drinking and stop being a Catholic. Do you see my error? He needed prayer all right but it was that he might be given "the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him", just as Paul says in Ephesians 1:17.

I realized my error while still in prayer because the Spirit spoke to me, saying, "He is a 'son of peace'." "Son of peace?", I spluttered, (because in those days, I still thought I knew something) "Why Lord, whatever do you mean?

Over the course of a few days, I came to understand what He’d meant. That man was a son of peace, having the mark of God on himself without his being aware of it as yet. I am convinced that if not by now, then surely he will come to understand what he did not at that time, and will turn to the One who can save him from all things through faith in His Name.

Since God knows all things, He surely knows who is a "son of peace" and who is not, by whatever other name they are presently called.

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St. Peh
I don't know everything but I know the One Who does.

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SoftTouch
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quote:
Originally posted by Carmela:
Hmmm, seems to me that buying a video filled with other people's mistakes isn't the type of video I would want to buy. I don't expect people to turn their head and ignore what has been said, but publically ridiculing people for one mistake or a couple they have made when they have been in ministry for years isn't the right way to go about it.

I think you have the wrong impression of that DVD I'm talking about. It's not about exposing Ministers... that's only One of the 12 Shockers... it deals with a wide variety of issues that are just mind blowing... including Government issues.

Secondly, this really isn't about one mistake. This is about a preacher who is world famous telling people that there are other ways of Salvation. There is a whole lot more information in this thread other then just the portion of that DVD that I'm talking about.

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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

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SoftTouch
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quote:
Originally posted by peh:
Please be so kind as to provide an example of the instances where people are pointed out as being false teachers/prophets in Scripture.

The following is a portion of a post from October 2004 that explains the Biblical president for naming names. (I am limited in my ability on this new computer to put together my own stuff. I don't have Microsoft Word installed just yet, so I had to find one of Linda's old posts on this subject.)

quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
What exactly does God have to tell us about naming names in our fight against heresy? What examples can we find in Scripture for being name-specific? I think the answers to these questions will prove beyond any doubt that the practice adopted by discernment ministries of identifying false teachers by name is not only biblically sound, but absolutely necessary.


PAUL NAMED PETER PUBLICLY. Scripture tells us that as the Apostle Paul was speaking to the church at Galatia, he felt it necessary to tell them of his public rebuke of the Apostle Peter. The whole issue revolved around Peter’s hypocritical actions toward the church at Antioch, which was a major church of Gentile Christians. Peter showed by his actions that he agreed with salvation by grace, but in his treatment of the Gentile Christians he began to pull away and favor the old ceremonial law.


Peter was guilty of unscriptural practice, a problem so serious that it required the public rebuke by Paul: “But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed...But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of the Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?” (Galatians 2:11-14). When the integrity and purity of the gospel is at stake, then we have no choice when it comes to the matter of exposing error and naming names.


PAUL NAMED DEMAS. Paul (while in prison) writes to evangelist Timothy and asks him to come quickly to Rome and give him help and company. In his letter, Paul instructs Timothy of the necessity to “...reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.” (2 Timothy 4:2-4).


Paul then names Demas as one who had left him for the comforts of the world. Love of this present world is often the cause of apostasy from the truths and ways of Jesus Christ. “For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world...” (2 Timothy 4:10). Those who forsake the cause of Christ for worldly living and pleasures should be named and exposed.


PAUL NAMED ALEXANDER THE COPPERSMITH. After Paul names Demas as a deserter from the faith, he names Alexander as a man who had done him great evil. “Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.” (2 Timothy 4:14-15).


Evidence suggests that Alexander (Acts 19:33) may have been a Christian who had apostatized to Judaism. Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 11:26 that he was in as much danger from false brethren as from his open enemies. In any event, it is clear that this is not a personality problem, but a doctrinal problem. Alexander had withstood the words and doctrine of Paul and was an enemy to the truth.


Godly pastors face the same problem today. No sooner do they stand for and proclaim the truth than their members go home and hear the words of the Lord disputed by radio and TV evangelists and preachers. There are many “Alexanders” in the Christian church today who should be named and exposed.


PAUL NAMED HYMENAEUS AND ALEXANDER. Paul advises Timothy to “...war a good warfare; Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.” (1 Timothy 1:18-20). Here Paul names Hymenaeus as well as Alexander as two who had abandoned the Christian faith.


Paul had a strong conviction about consistent spiritual warfare, even in times of opposition and discouragement. Because these two men had left the faith, they had made shipwreck of it, and Paul exposed them and called their names. It is worth noting in this passage that Paul is not talking about the faith of salvation but faith as a system of doctrine.


PAUL NAMED HYMENAEUS AND PHILETUS. After telling Timothy to “study” that he might be able to rightly divide the word of truth, Paul names Hymenaeus and Philetus as two men who had introduced false doctrines and heresy into the church. “But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.” (2 Timothy 2:16-18).


Paul explains that erroneous teachings, when left unchallenged, spread like gangrene. If they are not dealt with and exposed, they infect the faith of many. In this passage, Paul is talking about the resurrection of the dead which is a cardinal doctrine of Christianity. He names these corrupt teachers and sets a brand upon them to warn all people against harkening to their words.


JOHN NAMED DIOTREPHES. “I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.” (3 John 1:9). John calls Diotrephes by name as a minister who was filled with pride and an unchristian spirit. He then relates how this man had prated against him “with malicious words” (verse 10). He further said, “Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God, but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.” (verse 11). According to John, it is not wrong to name those whose characters and practices are contrary to the Word of God.


MOSES NAMED BALAAM. “And when the *** saw the angel of the LORD, she thrust herself unto the wall, and crushed Balaam's foot against the wall: and he smote her again.” (Numbers 22:25). Balaam, son of Beor the soothsayer, lived at Pethor on the bank of the Euphrates River. His teachings were an abomination unto God, and Numbers 22:32 records that the angel of the Lord told Balaam, “...thy way is perverse before Me.” Balaam was summoned by Moabite king Balak to curse the Israelites before they entered Canaan.


When speaking about backsliders, Balaam is also named by Jude. “Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.” (Jude 1:11). Balaam’s sin was one of greed or covetousness, as he was paid well by Balak. He was a prophet who was in the work for money, just like some of the TV false prophets today who beg for money from the masses and live like kings!


Peter names Balaam when he speaks of false teachers who “...have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam….” (2 Peter 2:15). In naming Balaam, the Bible condemns the greed of all who are well paid to tempt God's people into compromise.


NATHAN IDENTIFIED KING DAVID. It is a popular opinion today that some people are in such elevated positions of power or authority that they should not be named or exposed. Men in high places, pastors of large churches, and those with great radio or TV audiences are supposedly above criticism. But Scripture indicates otherwise.


David was just such a man in a very high place. Because of his position as king, I am sure David felt that he could not be rebuked by a lowly prophet. Nevertheless, that is exactly what happened when he was confronted by Nathan! Using the parable of the “one little ewe lamb,” Nathan confronted David with his double sin, the murder of Uriah the Hittite and his adultery with Bathsheba, Uriah's wife: “...Nathan said to David, Thou art the man.” (2 Samuel 12:7).


JEHU NAMED KING JEHOSHAPHAT. In many ways Jehoshaphat was a good king, but he was not above reproach. He caused his son to marry wicked King Ahab’s daughter. (2 Chronicles 18:1 and 21:1-6) He also made an alliance with Ahab and went to the battle of Ramoth-gilead with him (2 Chronicles 18). When Jehoshaphat returned safely home to Jerusalem, he was confronted by Jehu, the son of Hanani the Prophet, who “...said to king Jehoshaphat, Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD.” (2 Chronicles 19:1-2).


Jehu had no fear of naming and reproving another king. He understood it as a great mercy for the king to be made aware of his faults in a timely fashion, that he might repent before it was too late. The very same question asked by Jehu could be asked of those today who insist on giving allegiance and support to the ungodly doctrines of the Word of Faith Movement: “Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD?”


Yes, it is right to expose error and to name those “...who privily shall bring in damnable heresies...” (2 Peter 2:1). The whole Bible abounds in examples. It is right to “...earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 3). It was once delivered, and it has never been rescinded, repealed, or deleted! Ministers of the Gospel have been charged with a sacred trust to present the Word of God with courage, honesty, and a good conscience. Faithful messengers will warn the sheep of these heretics and identify them by name. It is not enough to broadly hint of their identity, for the young lambs will not understand and will be destroyed by the wolves!



--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
But ultimately we are not the ones who decide who is and who is not a false prophet
You are right, the word of God is. And it does. Out of the fulness of the heart the mouth speaks, and when it speaks contrary to the written word and is heard in the ears of one who holds the written word in his heart, the thoughts and intents of the speaker are discerned in the ears of the hearer.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
Gramajo320
Sadly, instead of people being upset at what is said, people are being upset at those who talked about it. The reality is Rev. Billy Graham and Rev. Joel Osteen both have made major mistakes

In all of the transcripts and quotes I have seen that can be directly attributed to Billy Graham's own words, I have yet to see any major mistakes.

Joel Osteen admitted he made some errors in his interview with Larry King and asked for forgiveness. He has publicly stated that Jesus is the only way to salvation. As good Christians are we not supposed to forgive him? I am sure Jesus is smiling down on him for showing such humility.

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peh
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Okay, Softouch, you posted

quote:
We are Accountable to God and to one another. The Bible is FULL of instances where people were pointed out (By Name) as being False Teachers or False Prophets. Are we not to follow the example set for us?
Please be so kind as to provide an example of the instances where people are pointed out as being false teachers/prophets in Scripture.

Or no, allow me: Deut 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Does this tell you to point out their error to others? To declare them false? No, it says verse 5 "And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death". Shall we kill the ones whose teaching you find false or that the websites you quote declare to be false?

You ready? Pick up the first stone.

Or, is this possibly more fit advice for the situation? Deut 18:22 "When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." (My emphasis)

Still don't see any "expose him", "talk a lot about him and his errors", "point him out by name".

How about 1 Kings 13:18 "He said unto him, I am a prophet also as thou art; and an angel spake unto me by the word of the LORD, saying, Bring him back with thee into thine house, that he may eat bread and drink water. But he lied unto him." and later in verse 26, the "lying" prophet says "...It is the man of God, who was disobedient unto the word of the LORD: therefore the LORD hath delivered him unto the lion, which hath torn him, and slain him, according to the word of the LORD, which he spake unto him."

Still no public declamation that I see. And apparently God thought He could take care of all the above Himself, not holding anyone else accountable except by direct command to kill the ones trying to lead the people away from Him. Now, if you are going to say someone is falsely prophecying, then probably you better be very sure God has said they are, if you are ready to kill them, huh?

Or, if you think that we ought to move into the New Testament way of doing and being right, read Acts 13:6 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:".

And Paul immediately said, You are a false prophet and your name is barjesus or elymas and you are teaching wrong things and here is what you are teaching and prophecying. Of course it is all false, and I need to let everyone else know what you are teaching and preaching because they may not get it or have the Spirit inside to tell them, or lack all discernment, so I have to denounce you, it is my duty to God and the rest of Christ's followers.

Oh, no, that's not what fearless leader Paul did, is it? Nope, he "being filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him, 10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord? 11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand. 12 Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord."

Oh, yeah, Paul spoke directly to the false prophet having been given revelation just as Peter had been about the cripple at the gate. Paul knew it was the Lord's place to bring about the punishment of the sorcerer.

Okay? Prophets can be wrong, lie, and be mistaken, as Elijah was when he said he was the only prophet left to speak for God.

But ultimately we are not the ones who decide who is and who is not a false prophet unless they are telling us to worship Buddha or some animal, now that would seem to be a pretty clear example of falseness. No guessing or quoting of words, or denouncing of doctrines needed there.

You might be very surprised to see who He thinks is and is not a false prophet or teacher.

--------------------
St. Peh
I don't know everything but I know the One Who does.

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Hmmm, seems to me that buying a video filled with other people's mistakes isn't the type of video I would want to buy. I don't expect people to turn their head and ignore what has been said, but publically ridiculing people for one mistake or a couple they have made when they have been in ministry for years isn't the right way to go about it.

God has revealed to me when I have been wrong, I think He is big enough to open another's eyes when they are wrong also.

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www.pinecrest.org

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SoftTouch
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Acts 4:
11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


John 14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

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SoftTouch
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I found a transcript of the video clip here: http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/grahambelieves.htm

This is not a paraphrase, but word for word what this clip says:

SCHULLER: Tell me, what do you think is the future of Christianity?

GRAHAM: Well, Christianity and being a true believer--you know, I think there's the Body of Christ. This comes from all the Christian groups around the world, outside the Christian groups. I think everybody that loves Christ, or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ. And I don't think that we're going to see a great sweeping revival, that will turn the whole world to Christ at any time. I think James answered that, the Apostle James in the first council in Jerusalem, when he said that God's purpose for this age is to call out a people for His name. And that's what God is doing today, He's calling people out of the world for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ because they've been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts that they need something that they don't have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think that they are saved, and that they're going to be with us in heaven.

SCHULLER: What, what I hear you saying that it's possible for Jesus Christ to come into human hearts and soul and life, even if they've been born in darkness and have never had exposure to the Bible. Is that a correct interpretation of what you're saying?

GRAHAM: Yes, it is, because I believe that. I've met people in various parts of the world in tribal situations, that they have never seen a Bible or heard about a Bible, and never heard of Jesus, but they've believed in their hearts that there was a God, and they've tried to live a life that was quite apart from the surrounding community in which they lived.

SCHULLER: [R. S. trips over his tongue for a moment, his face beaming, then says] I'm so thrilled to hear you say this. There's a wideness in God's mercy.

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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

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SoftTouch
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Redkermit,

The Video is called "The Shocker" and I bought it from The Cutting Edge Ministries. They did not produce this video, they just sell it. It is a seminar held by the Pastor (I dont' know his name) of "Hope For America Minstry." The clip that I'm referring to is listed as the Number One Shocker (out of 12).

You can order this video here:http://cuttingedge.org/detail.cfm?ID=884

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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by redkermit:
Soft Touch,
One thing that came to mind, and I'm not saying this is the case here, is that video is so easy to manipulate. Editing has a way of making people say and do things they didn't mean. It can show a totally different meaning than the original context. For example, someone could say, "I was accused of saying, 'I hate gays'". It is so easy to edit out the first part, and show the person saying, "I hate gays".

AMEN, AMEN AND THEN AMEN AGAIN!! That's why I don't understand why people aren't using the preachers' own websites. There is usually enough infomation on them so that we can find what their fundamental beliefs are, but I guess that's not stimulating and exciting enough.
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redkermit
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Soft Touch,

You may have already mentioned this, but I'm sorry, I do not want to read this entire thread again, so I'm asking.

Where did this DVD come from that has the interview you keep referring to? If you do not have a way to copy them (as you mentioned), or the resources to host them online and provide a link, can you please provide the web site you ordered them from?

One thing that came to mind, and I'm not saying this is the case here, is that video is so easy to manipulate. Editing has a way of making people say and do things they didn't mean. It can show a totally different meaning than the original context. For example, someone could say, "I was accused of saying, 'I hate gays'". It is so easy to edit out the first part, and show the person saying, "I hate gays".

Anyway, I would like to look into getting these DVD's myself. Thanks in advance!

--------------------
I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked. (Ps. 84:10b)

1 John 2:6
Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

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Gramajo320
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Texas Grandma,

You will please give me the courtesy of not twisting my words nor the intent of my postings and please quit trying to read into my posting something that quite simply is not there. For you to do so is very erroneous and I'm certain that you know that so I am asking you to please stop it.

I will reiterate the following:

1. I posted only what I know to be the truth by
stating what I know to be the truth because I
observed it and heard it for myself which is
the whole truth. Each and every time I've
seen them and heard what they said they have
certainly preached the gospel of Jesus
Christ and have led ever so many many people
to Jesus Christ.

2. I have not and I am not mad or upset with
you or anyone else whatsoever so please
quit trying to make it look and sound like
I felt or feel something that I absolutely do
not feel. You most assuredly have not hurt
my feelings whatsoever so please quit saying,
thinking that you have. I know you like to
have everyone agree with you and with your
close friends. I also know that you don't
like it if someone agrees to disagree or
just disagrees with you and your friends.

Please remember that each person on this board
is an individual and each person has an
equal right to voice their own opinion so
I'm asking you to please respect their
rights and mine as much as you respect the
right of your close friends to voice their
opinion.


3. I most definitely agree with Carmela's
statement that this thread has been beaten
to death. God and Jesus Christ definitely
should be our focus and for myself they are
my focus.

--------------------
Gramajo320

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Carmela
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Maybe it's me, but I am not upset with anyone for their opinions, nor did I read other replies as being angry or defensive.

However, maybe what would have been best to say in the beginning would have been, we need to pray for Billy G because I heard this statement and I feel it's false. No, I don't agree with what was said either, however I feel I can't judge the man based on something typed that was paraphrased. I'm not calling you a liar or saying you didn't paraphrase right, only that we all interpret words differently at times so I can't go on that. Plus, we only know the basic words he spoke but he may be believing a lie, or he may have a deeper underlying reason for saying what he did that wasn't spoken in the interview. Many times I have said things that were misinterpreted. I'm also sure there have been times when all of us have spoken things that were not true and God later revealed the truth to us.

I'm not going to come back to this post because I think we have beaten this subject to death.

Oh, If I were witnessing to someone or talking to a friend, I might mention that I had just heard Billy G. say something that I don't see lining up with God's word so I don't call that bashing. What is bashing in my opinion is to totally throw away an entire ministry based on a mistake someone may have made....especially since we have all made them and we always will.

I don't agree with glorifying Bill Clinton AT ALL. He has proven himself to be untrustworthy to the Christian public. He used Christianity to get into the White House, then he shunned our entire nation and made it a laughing stock to foreign countries that were probably laughing at our leadership. However, we are all human (I'm not by any means offending what he did) and I hope and pray that Bill Clinton has repented and will truly follow God some day. I pray him instead of persecute him.

Maybe the post should have originally said....lets pray for Joe O or Billy G.

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TEXASGRANDMA
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GamaJo,

My intention was not to hurt your feelings but to remind all of us that when we get mad at those who told us the truth, or when we are mad at each other, we are angry at the wrong person.
The truth is, the enemy we are facing is not each other but the devil that seeks to weaken and destroy our testimony for God. Why did God put in the Bible about David's sin? He could have allowed that to be left out of the Bible to spare David. But, he knew that we need to be reminded that any of us can fail. We need to stay focused on God and pray for strength. Yes we need to take our focuse off man, but when we hear that someone we respect has fallen, pretending that it has not happened is not the answer. The answer is to pray for that person, that they find forgivness before it is too late. When we see our fav Pastors watering down the truth of the Gospel to bring in more numbers to the Church, then we need to pray that God will give them the strength to not compromise.
Goodnight and God bless,
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

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Gramajo320
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Texas Grandma,

I most assuredly am not mad or upset at anyone whatsoever so please don't think I am. I honestly don't know why you would even say that. Having a different opinion doesn't mean that I or anyone else is "mad at the messenger" or upset. It just means there is a difference of opinion which I believe we can have if we believe that something is not the truth. I posted to what I knew to be the truth from the many many times I've heard and seen for myself the two ministers preach the gospel of Jesus Christ. Also I learned a long time ago that just because someone wrote something or said something about another person didn't and doesn't necessarily mean that it was or is the gospel truth. I was taught to think for myself, see for myself, and to find out the truth for myself. I will say again I posted only what I know to be the truth from what I've seen and heard for myself. As I've said before I look to God and I know without a doubt that God is not happy with all of the maligning of his ministers who have preached the gospel of his son Jesus Christ and who have led so many many to Jesus Christ. With all due respect to you and a few others, each of you post your opinion so please have the courtesy to allow me to do the same without accusing me of something I have not felt or have not done. I would greatly appreciate your doing so. Thank you very much. I truly think our focus needs to be on Jesus Christ and God and that's where I intend to keep focusing.

Have a blessed night.

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Gramajo320

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TEXASGRANDMA
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Gramajo320

I agree we do not know what is in a person's heart but when their own words convict them, then they have opened the door to their heart.

Sadly, instead of people being upset at what is said, people are being upset at those who talked about it. The reality is Rev. Billy Graham and Rev. Joel Osteen both have made major mistakes. What we need to do is fellow Christians is pray for them. Pretending this did not happen is not the answer. Getting mad at the messenger is not the answer. We need to be mad at the devil who tempted these two to put popularity over the truth of God's Word.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

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whitesands777
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I should've voted for the constitution party.
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