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Author
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Topic: Once Saved Always Saved ?? - Part 1 & 2 of 3
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barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35
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posted
Sister Betty stated:
quote:
There are two Judgments. The Judgment Seat of Christ in Heaven where Christians shall have their works judged and the White Throne Judgment where only sinners will be judged.
betty
Please give full scripture references for your hypothesis.
You cant just make that type of statement and not be called to task.
So please list all the scriptures that make you think that.
bondservant
barry
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Betty Louise
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Member # 7175
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posted
There are two Judgments. The Judgment Seat of Christ in Heaven where Christians shall have their works judged and the White Throne Judgment where only sinners will be judged.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35
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posted
There is only one Judgement at the Coming of Yahoshua haMasiach.
Timothy 4:1
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works
Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
bondservant
barry
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Carol Swenson
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Member # 6929
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posted
barrykind
quote:
i too believe that eternally secure persons must be "regenerated" professors and not posessing the Spirit of God are not even part of the kingdom...Me thinks where we differ is i can see one as walking away from salvation.. because a "regenerated" person or one that posses the Holy Spirit and returns to live in unrepented sin is INIQUITY....and in very much danger of being CUT OFF!
I think where we differ is I don't believe we possess the Holy Spirit. I believe that HE possesses us. And it is impossible for one who is possessed by the Holy Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God, to turn away from Them.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Betty Louise
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Member # 7175
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posted
Better be careful there Wild B. I think you are one of people who have taken the mark of the beast ( you know us Sunday worshippers) ![[spiny]](graemlins/spiny.gif) ![[updown]](graemlins/updown.gif) ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
Mark my words BROTHER for these words will bear witness in the JUDGEMENT SIR!
love
bondservant
barry
And please do tell the baseball fans to which judgement you refer?
The Bema or the Great White Throne?
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35
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posted
Sister Carol Posted:
quote:
barrykind
I missed your post before. I believe that eternal security is for true Christians, not just professing Christians. I believe that a true Christian has been regenerated, and is led by the Holy Spirit.
As the above post i think you know how i see the scripture. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
i surely believe that NO DEVIl, No Man, women, boy nor girl; nor pricipality or spiritual powers can pluck us from the Father's hand.
If we turn from following Yahoshua [Jesus], there is NO armour for our BACK...
If we thrown down and neglect so great a salvation; if we turn to sin and fall therein with no repentance...WE ARE CUT OFF;
where is that cut off point Yahweh Knows..
But the scripture is so clear to me, we DO NOT HAVE TO SIN; BUT!!! If we do we have an advocate with the Father ; Yahoshua [Jesus] Christ the righteous, and might i add HE IS QUICK to forgive our sin..
i too believe that eternally secure persons must be "regenerated" professors and not posessing the Spirit of God are not even part of the kingdom...Me thinks where we differ is i can see one as walking away from salvation.. because a "regenerated" person or one that posses the Holy Spirit and returns to live in unrepented sin is INIQUITY....and in very much danger of being CUT OFF!
[Sorry] Missed commenting on the part about being led by the Spirit:
We are to "walk" in the Spirit, one reason so we "WILL NOT" fulfill the lusts of the flesh; for to continue to "fulfill" the lusts of the flesh will cause this scripture to come into effect in ones Life:
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Galatians 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
inlove
IHS
bondservant
barry
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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barrykind
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Member # 35
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posted
Originally Posted by wildb:
quote:
I thank God thru Jesus Christ , that my salvation has been everlastingly secured from the 1st hour I believed.
Your teaching that it ain't is just plain silly..
Repent while the day is yet called day.
If you read anything we have posted Brother Bill; Your secure as long as you Follow Yahoshua [Jesus]; YOUR NOT SECURE IF YOU WALK AWAY; despise the Spirit of Grace, walk in INIQUITY; and you shall be CUT OFF BROTHER!!!!
Scriptures:
Numbers 15:31
Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.
Psalm 28:3
Draw me not away with the wicked, and with the workers of iniquity, which speak peace to their neighbours, but mischief is in their hearts.
Psalm 38:18
For I will declare mine iniquity; I will be sorry for my sin.
Proverbs 21:15
It is joy to the just to do judgment: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.
Isaiah 13:11
And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Jeremiah 14:10
Thus saith the LORD unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the LORD doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins.
Ezekiel 3:20
Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Matthew 24:12
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Romans 6
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
wildb CAN'T you see that your only secure as long as you follow HIS RULES;
Romans also warns we CANNOT lend our members again to SIN...FOR THE WAGES OF SIN ARE DEATH: DEATH DEATH DEATH!!!! Spiritual DEATH!!!!!!!!!
Brother are YOU IN SIN; DO you have a BESETTING SIN that is plaguing you?
Why else would you make excuse?
Why would you believe that once you were sealed all YOUR PAST< PRESENT < AND FUTURE SINS ARE ALREADY Forgiven?????
Did you not hear when we posted::
1 John 2
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
There is many. many, many references to REFUTE the OSAS Doctrine of Devils Sir:
One must realize how we are Secure [Eternally] in HIM!
It is clearly defined in scripture:
"IF" is a conditional word and it is used many times in Scripture and it represents a "condition"
Don't think for one moment that Our Precious Saviour, Yahoshua HaMasiach shed HIS precious Blood so you or anyone else could live a life of SIN and INIQUITY and enter into Heaven......... Not gonna happen ever sir....we love HIM we WILL KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS and HIS WORD; we will do everything in our power to please HIM.
Mark my words BROTHER for these words will bear witness in the JUDGEMENT SIR!
love
bondservant
barry
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Carol Swenson
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posted
barrykind
I missed your post before. I believe that eternal security is for true Christians, not just professing Christians. I believe that a true Christian has been regenerated, and is led by the Holy Spirit.
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Proverbs 28:9 “He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.”
“He that hath my commandments, and Keep Them, he it is that loveth me: And he that loveth me Shall Be Loved of My Father.”(John 14:21)
“IF a man love me, he will Keep My Words: And my Father Will Love Him.” (John 14:23)
“IF ye Keep My Commandments, ye Shall Abide in My Love.” (John 15:10)
Yahweh alone will have the final say in who gains entrance to eternal life.
but for sure the man or woman that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, will not be part of that Eternal Kingdom!
there is a way that seemeth right to men but the end there of is destruction.
There is no "if" in Christ only a "is"!
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That is all.....
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
I thank God thru Jesus Christ , that my salvation has been everlastingly secured from the 1st hour I believed.
Your teaching that it ain't is just plain silly..
Repent while the day is yet called day.
Back to the top for the baseball fans.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
Proverbs 28:9 “He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.”
“He that hath my commandments, and Keep Them, he it is that loveth me: And he that loveth me Shall Be Loved of My Father.”(John 14:21)
“IF a man love me, he will Keep My Words: And my Father Will Love Him.” (John 14:23)
“IF ye Keep My Commandments, ye Shall Abide in My Love.” (John 15:10)
Yahweh alone will have the final say in who gains entrance to eternal life.
but for sure the man or woman that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, will not be part of that Eternal Kingdom!
there is a way that seemeth right to men but the end there of is destruction.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
I thank God thru Jesus Christ , that my salvation has been everlastingly secured from the 1st hour I believed.
Your teaching that it ain't is just plain silly..
Repent while the day is yet called day.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35
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posted
Sorry Brother Bill.........your gonna just keep on with the same scriptures and not look evidently at all the scriptures that pertain to exposing the [FALSE DOCTRINE] of OSAS.
i have given perhaps 75 or more scriptures that refute your understanding of Ephesians, and portions of Galations.
So are you saying that you Know what "mystery" means and or is, and that im ignorant of the "mystery" Brother?
1.Mark 4:11 (Whole Chapter)
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
2.Romans 11:25 (Whole Chapter)
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
3.Romans 16:25 (Whole Chapter)
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
4.1 Corinthians 2:7 (Whole Chapter)
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
5.1 Corinthians 15:51 (Whole Chapter)
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
6.Ephesians 1:9 (Whole Chapter)
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
7.Ephesians 3:3 (Whole Chapter)
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
8.Ephesians 3:4 (Whole Chapter)
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
9.Ephesians 3:9 (Whole Chapter)
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10.Ephesians 5:32 (Whole Chapter)
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
11.Ephesians 6:19 (Whole Chapter)
And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
12.Colossians 1:26 (Whole Chapter)
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
13.Colossians 1:27 (Whole Chapter)
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
14.Colossians 2:2 (Whole Chapter)
That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
15.Colossians 4:3 (Whole Chapter)
Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:
16.2 Thessalonians 2:7 (Whole Chapter)
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
17.1 Timothy 3:9 (Whole Chapter)
Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
18.1 Timothy 3:16 (Whole Chapter)
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
19.Revelation 1:20 (Whole Chapter)
The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
20.Revelation 10:7 (Whole Chapter)
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
21.Revelation 17:5 (Whole Chapter)
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
22.Revelation 17:7 (Whole Chapter)
And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
Sometime Brother Bill it seems you talk in riddles, or either you need to simplify things so as i can understand where your coming from.
Do you want me to go back and explain each scripture you have used with the word mystery in it?
OriganallyPosted by wildb
quote:
No mater how you try to confuse the FACT of the simple TRUTH of Ephesians 4:30 "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God,whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption" with your opinion driven division of the Word evidenced by its total ignorance of the Mystery. It still remains unchanged and clear to all the saints that understand the Mystery.
Understand the mystery and you will understand Once Sealed always Sealed until the day of redemption.
Romans, Chapter 16, 025: Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of themystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
1 Corinthians, Chapter 2, 007: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery,even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1 Corinthians, Chapter 15, 051: Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Ephesians, Chapter 1, 009: Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Ephesians, Chapter 3, 003: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery;(as I wrote afore in few words,
Ephesians, Chapter 3, 004: Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mysteryof Christ)
Ephesians, Chapter 3, 009: And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Ephesians, Chapter 5, 032: This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church
Ephesians, Chapter 6, 019: And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
What does Paul mean Brother Bill in the vs. Eph 4:30 warning "NOT TO GREIVE the Holy Sprit of God" whereby you are sealed?
So if you heed not the warning "Not to Greive" what is your consequence? Burned rewards?
Falling away?
What my Brother?
There is not a "mystery" in which you have private interpetation Brother...I'm sure you know that.
Also you stated:
quote:
with your opinion driven division of the Word evidenced by its total ignorance of the Mystery. It still remains unchanged and clear to all the saints that understand the Mystery.
Brother thats plain ludicrous, thats your opinion; that the above is my opinion?
Come on Brother you can certainly articulate the english language and your knowledge of the scriptures better that that...
If you cannot answer even one scripture that refutes your position on a doctrine, then Brother you need to put your doctrine on a shelf til you can fit all scriptures together. i have i think answered every single scripture you have given, you have not answered perhaps at least 50 i have given you. You come back to "once sealed always sealed, your version of osas.
i dont think that you have read every post in this thread, have you? At your time of reading this post have you read every post in this thread Brother Bill?
im not a good debater, nor orator by any means, but i can tell when some one gives in and reverts back to "pet" scriptures without using the whole of God's word, just to keep from looking at the possibility of "i might be wrong"!
ive been in the Lord since Jan 18, 1983; how do i know that date; because i changed, my entire "want to " changed; it was no longer i but "Christ".
I have seen a LOT of religion, a lot of "churched folks" and a lot of "trash" in the "name" of the LORD that HE has nothing to do with. i have been hammered by "experts" [so called] on doctrine and have seen errors in my "theology" and corrected my position to line up with God and HIS word.
im not easily shaken, [by HIS grace and Mercy], and i am not "MOVED" by every wind of doctrine such as OSAS, and osas!
The only way is Yahweh's way, God is in control and HIS word will stand.
You have not, and cannot prove by scripture how you are clear on your stance, on simple rules of debate you fail and fail miserably; you cannot answer scripture that refutes OSAS, and you cannot produce any that prove there is any validity in the False Evil DOCTRINE of OSAS!
I love you , even tho i have never met you,and i can say that because of the LOVE of God in me.
I rebuke you in Yahoshua's name and admonish you to "Study to show yourself approved" a workman that need not be ashamed.
Im being careful in this rebuke because i believe that you earnestly believe what you have posted, i donot think there is guile nor discord in your heart sir, but all in all your doctrine and defense thereof will not stand at the judgement seat of Christ, it will fall as chatter dear Brother, but our words toward one another will be judged.
If you care to refute the some 100+ scriptures please take them line by line and we will go over them.
In love
bondservant
barry
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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WildB
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posted
No mater how you try to confuse the FACT of the simple TRUTH of Ephesians 4:30 "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God,whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption" with your opinion driven division of the Word evidenced by its total ignorance of the Mystery. It still remains unchanged and clear to all the saints that understand the Mystery.
Understand the mystery and you will understand Once Sealed always Sealed until the day of redemption.
Romans, Chapter 16, 025: Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of themystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
1 Corinthians, Chapter 2, 007: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery,even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1 Corinthians, Chapter 15, 051: Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Ephesians, Chapter 1, 009: Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Ephesians, Chapter 3, 003: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery;(as I wrote afore in few words,
Ephesians, Chapter 3, 004: Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mysteryof Christ)
Ephesians, Chapter 3, 009: And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Ephesians, Chapter 5, 032: This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church
Ephesians, Chapter 6, 019: And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
Colossians, Chapter 1, 026: Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Colossians, Chapter 1, 027: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Colossians, Chapter 2, 002: That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgment of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
Colossians, Chapter 4, 003: Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:
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That is all.....
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barrykind
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Member # 35
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posted
Now that i have answered your questions Brother Bill; can you look at these scriptures and see where i am coming from:
Departing from the Faith;
Perseverance of the Saints says that once you are truly saved, you will not (or cannot) depart from the faith. What does the Bible say?
Galatians 5:4 -- Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
(You can fall from grace if you accept a false gospel message!)
In the story of the Prodigal son, the Father said:
Luke 15:24 -- For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
('Dead' and 'lost' are words to describe an unsaved person, regardless of their affiliation with the Father (he was His son). The Father makes this statement twice!)
1 Corinthians 8:10-13
9: But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
10: For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
11: And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
(A brother - fellow Christian - can perish.)
2 Peter 2:15 -- Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
(You cannot go astray if you were never on the path.)
John 18:17 -- Then saith the damsel that kept the door unto Peter, Art not thou also one of this man's disciples? He saith, I am not.
(Peter lied, and denied Christ. Was he not saved yet, or did God simply overlook his sin? Note that Peter repented)
Luke 22:32 -- But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
(Saved Peter could not have "converted" lest he fell away first, and yes indeed, he fell away.)
1 Peter 2:11 -- Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
(They would not war against us if we could not be destroyed)
Romans 6:21-23
21: What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22: But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(There is a direct correlation between sin and death; and holiness and life. Paul was warning cleansed Christians about this!)
Isaiah 63:8-10
8: For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
9: In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
10: But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
(They rebelled, and He forsook them.)
Timothy 5:22 -- Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.
(Why would Paul tell Timothy to keep himself pure, if it were impossible for him to become impure, as OSAS teaches?)
GOD'S FAITHFULNESS
Some say that if we were able to lose our salvation, then God would not be faithful. But the Bible says that He is both faithful to save the righteous and faithful to damn the wicked. When you are judged, will you be righteous or wicked? Either way, God IS faithful!
Many verses are from the Old Testament because that is where God's faithfulness was often exhibited. Don't worry, He is still faithful!
2 Timothy 2:11-14
11: It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. (God's Faithfulness abides regardless of who we are)
Joshua 23:15-16
15: Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.
16: When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.
Jeremiah 18:7-10
7: At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8: If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9: And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10: If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
Jeremiah 11:7-8
7: For I earnestly protested unto your fathers in the day that I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, even unto this day, rising early and protesting, saying, Obey my voice.
8: Yet they obeyed not, nor inclined their ear, but walked every one in the imagination of their evil heart: therefore I will bring upon them all the words of this covenant, which I commanded them to do; but they did them not. (He IS ALWAYS faithful, to do what He said He would do.)
Deuteronomy 8:19,20
19: And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish.
20: As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God.
Deuteronomy 7:9-10
9: Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
10: And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.
1 Kings 11:37-38
37: And I will take thee, and thou shalt reign according to all that thy soul desireth, and shalt be king over Israel.
38: And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee, and wilt walk in my ways, and do that is right in my sight, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as David my servant did; that I will be with thee, and build thee a sure house, as I built for David, and will give Israel unto thee.
(As we know, Jeroboam did not live up to his end of the bargain, and you know what? God remained faithful NOT to do what He promised to do with Jeroboam.)
God Is Always Faithful
GOD'S PROGRAM
If you sin after you are saved, how do you become clean again? How are you forgiven? The Bible is clear.
1 John 1:9 -- If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Proverbs 28:13 -- He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
Ezekiel 33: 10-20
10: Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?
11: Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
12: Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
13: When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
14: Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15: If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16: None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
17: Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
18: When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
19: But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
God has made it clear throughout His Word two things:
1) Salvation is a way of life, not an item
2) To be forgiven of sin, we must confess it and forsake it
WHO ARE THE TRUE CHRISTIANS?
What does the Bible say about the Christian? What does it mean to be a follower of Jesus Christ? Again, the Bible is clear.
Revelation 17:14
14: These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
(They are faithful.)
1 John 2:3,4
3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Revelation 21:27 - And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
(God's people are they who work no abomination, are not defiled, and do not make lies)
Revelation 14:12-13
12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13: And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
(Saints are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus Christ. "Sinning Saint" is an oxymoron!)
Revelation 12:11 -- And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
(The overcomers are willing to give their life)
1 John 3:10 -- In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Galatians 5:24 -- And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
(A child of God has crucified the flesh)
Romans 8:6 -- For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
(The mind of a Christian is spiritual, not carnal)
1 Peter 2:9 -- But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
That is who we are, and we live like it!
THE IMPUTATION OF GRACE
The Bible is clear that righteous is imputed to us by God's grace. Contrary to the theory of some, God did this in the Old Testament as well as the New.
This Imputation can also be 'un-done'.
Old Testament
Genesis 15:6 -- And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Romans 4:3 -- For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Romans 4:6 -- Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
New Testament
2 Corinthians 5:21 -- For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Romans 4:24 -- But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Anti-Imputation
Ezekiel 33:10-20
10: Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?
11: Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
12: Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth
13: When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
14: Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15: If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16: None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
17: Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
18: When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
19: But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
20: Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.
This is the message that rings throughout the Bible, and it is said ever so clearly by Ezekiel! If the wicked turn from his sin, he will live. If the righteous turn to sin, he will die.
If God's imputed righteousness can be "undone" in the Old Testament, why not the New as well?
GOD'S COMMANDMENTS ARE NOT BURDENSOME
How many of you think that the commandments of Jesus are tiring, straining, and hard? Wake up call.
Matthew 11:30 -- For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light
1 John 5:3 -- For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Psalm 19:7-11
7: The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8: The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9: The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10: More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11: Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
Psalm 119:14 I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies, as much as in all riches.
-- To live an unholy life is burdensome --
Jeremiah 2:19 -- Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord GOD of hosts.
Proverbs 5:22 -- His own iniquities shall take the wicked himself, and he shall be holden with the cords of his sins.
THE ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED DOCTRINE
After reading what the Bible says about salvation and those departing from the faith, let's look at Biblical examples of OSAS.
Genesis 3:3-4
3: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4: And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
The lie of OSAS has been around since the beginning of creation. It was the very first thing that Satan used to get Eve, and He uses it yet today! Don't worry, little child, sin cannot destroy you, for it is no longer an issue!
Jude 3-4
3: Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4: For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jude writes that we should earnestly contend for the faith, which is the opposite of what these certain men were teaching, which was a license for immorality, allowing true Grace to coincide with sin. This is OSAS, that sin can coincide with grace.
1 Thessalonians 4:7,8
7: For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8: He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
Many OSAS preachers despise the holiness that God has called us to by permitting sin.
THE BIBLICAL CONCLUSION
So thus we conclude:
We are to repent to get salvation
Salvation is a GIFT not earned by us
But Salvation can be negated by sin
And can be retrieved again through
sincere confession and forsaking.
That:
The unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God
The Righteous can become unrighteous through sin
The unrighteous can turn to God to become righteous again
And that:
If our salvation is lost through sin and we stray away, God is faithful to fulfill His promise of forgiveness if we come back. If we do not come back, God is faithful to fulfill His promise to destroy us.
And thus, we conclude:
God wants to save us through a covenant, or agreement with us. He wants us to have a continual relationship with Him, walking in the Light, by which we are kept in His saving power.
Do not fear, my friend. Stick close to God, and you cannot go wrong.
your Brother and fellow
bondservant of Yahoshua Ha Meshiach
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35
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posted
There have been made some statements here that i challange; but they are on a different subject.
i will post on another thread answers to these [false] doctrines.
It is my hope that if im wrong you guys can correct me, as IRON SHARPENS IRON, we can come to the truth.
My study of Eschatology is at best weak, and i would like to clear up some things..please see my other post.
Brother Drew and Brother Bill made statements in this thread on "Bema" and great white judgements; anyways two different [2] judgements.
bondservant
barry
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35
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posted
Origiallyposted by becausehelives:
quote:
Wildb if your heart has not been circumcised by Yahweh there is no way you are saved.
Without circumcision of heart all you have is religion!
I pray others on this board will have the love to back me up on this.
Exactly Brother i have always believed that....
As far as wildB's statement:
quote:
When God passed between those pieces that Abram had laid out,that heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
Was Abram circumcised?
And what was counted to him for righteousness?
Gen 15:
6And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
7And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
8And he said, LORD God, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
9And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
Is that what your talking about wildb?
i surly believe it's cicumcision of the heart Brother, not the flesh.
i miss your point, of why you threw that in back a couple of posts...
Did you think that i or [we] believe that one should be physically circumcised?
To be more specific, no Abram at that time was not physically circumcised, but what was counted to him as righteousness was that he [Abram] believed God.
Romans 4
1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Are we on the same page here?
bondservant
barry
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Wildb if your heart has not been circumcised by Yahweh there is no way you are saved.
Without circumcision of heart all you have is religion!
I pray others on this board will have the love to back me up on this.
I concur my brother. My heart was circumcised with that circumcision made with out hand three days before I reported for duty to the US Navy 35 years ago.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Carol Swenson
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posted
quote:
Without circumcision of heart all you have is religion!
Isn't that exactly what we have been saying all along?
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
Wildb if your heart has not been circumcised by Yahweh there is no way you are saved.
Without circumcision of heart all you have is religion!
I pray others on this board will have the love to back me up on this.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
Need i show more scriptures?
Honered Brother Bill, your latest post seems like the last statement before a white flag of surrender, you have not, nor can you post any scriptures to refute my last several posts, not Brother Dales last posts...you seemingly are throwing out hopeless "life lines" to try and save a pet doctrine of yours with [smoke screens]that will not match up with scripture, Dear Sir, go back and go over the scriptures that have been posted and see the exegeses of thought and see if you can refute the claims of OSAS....are evil and proposterous! Stop using Eisegesis sir.
As taught by mainstream religion ie; Charles Stanley; et.el;.
Humbly yours sir:
bondservbant
barry
No mater how you 2 try to confuse the FACT of the simple TRUTH of Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God,whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.with your opinion driven division of the Word, it still remains unchanged and clear to all that lean not on their own understanding..
I see you all have not answered these questions yet.
When God passed between those pieces that Abram had laid out,that heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
Was Abram circumcised?
And what was counted to him for righteousness?
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Hello Wildb,
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28.
All had better have a healthy fear of Yahweh, understanding to destroy the soul is to unseal what He has sealed!
Maybe in your bible.
Let me ask you who is "them which kill the body"?
The destruction of the soul does not happen at the Bema but it does at the Great White Throne of Judgement.
One more thing my friend.
Equating the Holy SEALING by God's Spirit of those that have placed their faith in the Shed Blood of Christ until the day of redemption to the destruction of the soul of the unsealed is just plain silly.
Please review what God says and not you 2 do..
The Bema...
1 Corinthians, Chapter 3
011: For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
012: Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
013: Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
014: If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
015: If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
AND
Revelation, Chapter 20
011: And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
012: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
013: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
014: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
015: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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That is all.....
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barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35
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posted
Origianally posted by wildb
quote:
Do you constrain us to be circumcised like you and Dale?
Don't you two know that in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
We that Follow Once Sealed Always Sealed until the day of redemption by the SEALER are confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in us will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ!
What?
First i do not know if Brother Dale is circumcised or not..Don't care.
If it be that your talking about circumcised in the flesh...It's his circumcision of the heart that i care about and that i know he is
Infatically yes i do know what the LORD said in:
Galatians 6:13For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
Colossians 2:11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Romans 2:25For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
Romans 2:26Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Romans 2:27And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Romans 2:28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Romans 2:29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Romans 3:30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Romans 4:9Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Romans 4:10How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Romans 4:11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Need i show more scriptures?
Honered Brother Bill, your latest post seems like the last statement before a white flag of surrender, you have not, nor can you post any scriptures to refute my last several posts, not Brother Dales last posts...you seemingly are throwing out hopeless "life lines" to try and save a pet doctrine of yours with [smoke screens]that will not match up with scripture, Dear Sir, go back and go over the scriptures that have been posted and see the exegeses of thought and see if you can refute the claims of OSAS....are evil and proposterous! Stop using Eisegesis sir.
As taught by mainstream religion ie; Charles Stanley; et.el;.
Humbly yours sir:
bondservbant
barry
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
Hello Wildb,
I truly pray for your eyes to be opened to the truth...
As to circumcision ...circumcision of the flesh available nothing but the man or woman that has not had Yahweh preform circumcision of the heart is not a new creature!
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28.
All had better have a healthy fear of Yahweh, understanding to destroy the soul is to unseal what He has sealed!
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
Do you constrain us to be circumcised like you and Dale?
Don't you two know that in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
We that Follow Once Sealed Always Sealed until the day of redemption by the SEALER are confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in us will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ!
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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barrykind
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Member # 35
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posted
Sister Carol, i have not forgotten you and want to respond to some of your posts.
Honered Sister and handmaid of the Lord, i feel your heart i think in this matter. i think that perhaps your stance on this issue is actually the very heart of the matter.
Correct me if im wrong; but i feel you love Jesus, want to follow Him, want to please HIM, and do not want to sin nor cause any reason to greive the MASTER.
On many points i agree with you and where you stand on this issue of OSAS..
There is no devil that can "take" your salvation dear sister, nor any man, women, boy or girl, that can take your salvation!
There is "no" one that can "pluck" you from his hand!
This is to me TRUE, much so. It is a foundational truth that the scriptures bear up, time and time again!
No question as to the validaty of the principals in scripture listed above. If you like i could probably list 100's of scriptures to confirm the above mentioned stance on security from any outside force "taking" ones salvation.
Herein Sister lies the problem; OSAS teaches the above principals and rightly so, but the problem i see is that one someone is "saved", abiding in the vine, the OSAS stance goes beyond scripture to say that no matter what "one" does, [this is meaning the "saved" person], they cannot go to hell, they cannot be lost! To me this is not what the scriptures teach..
i feel that part of the "MARK" of the "BEAST" is "ones self", old nature, sinful man, SELF!
To him that overcomes, the bible says...right, yes..
Overcomes what, we are out of the "world", the world cannot overcome anything.
To him [i belive] that overcomes ones self.
This is where to me the puzzle FITS scripture...Matthew 6:
Our Father who art in heaven.........for give us our tresspasses as we forgive those that tresspass against us
Our biggest enemy is not satan, not the world, not muslims, not this or that religion.....ITS our "own" "selves"; this is where the evil lies in the "old man" ; the body of SIN that lies within us!
What shall we do, who can deliver us from this BODY OF DEATH!, thank Our Father, Yahoshua, Jesus the Messiah, as long as we walk in the Spirit; we will not fufill the [lusts] of the flesh!
The spiritual warefare folks is in the battle ground of our MIND!
This is where satan works to coerce us to evil; but be not mistaken my dear Brothers and Sisters; YaHWeH God Almighty did not let Adam [the women you gave me God], nor Eve [that serpent begiled me]; get away with an excuse!
We must walk in the Spirit; for walking in the FLESH WILL BE DEATH BROTHREN!!!!!!!
God is NOT mocked; if you sow to the flesh you will reap corruption; the SECOND DEATH!!
LET NO MAN DECIVE YOU WITH VAIN WORDS, i have no hatred for any of you , i hope my heart is pure and i love each of you!
The warnings are so clear to me folks.
Why would it make someone so afraid as to not look at the scriptures that show OSAS is wrong Sister; help me understand.
We must have complete faith in Yahoshua Jesus to keep us no matter what, i cant keep myself, i must have the Holy Spirit, and i must TRUST in that gift to walk right, to stay right and to YES ENDURE unto the end...Do not fret over devils, the world, cunning and crafty men who seek to our destyruction; trust in HIM, he will bring us through; but to believe that we can sin and continue without repentance is a sure DEATH!
i dont want to ramble, and hopefully my words will be understood from my heart in the way they were intended. To me im not trying to win, not trying to convert just because i think im a great debater; i truly wholly see this position from this prospective, and i see great danger in the way many are teaching OSAS....to the false security of [living in sin],
Do i sin...YES; do i have to sin...NO
What Bro Barry you dont have to sin...Bible says i dont.
If i walk in the Spirit i will not fulfill the lusts of the FLESh, true?
Yes its true!
If you want scriptues let me know....
This is where the LAW is tied in folks, walking in the Spirit: [THE LAW IS WRITTEN ON OUR HEARTS]
If we brake the LAW our heart is condemned, but what shall i do, i feel condemnation, conviction; i pray Oh Lord have mercy on me , forgive me [as i have forgiven those who sinned against me]!
Right relationship again, clean, FOR HE is faithful to forgive folks!
BIBLE SAYS "BE YE PERFECT AS YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN IS PERFECT"...BIBLE SAYS THAT ...IS IT TRUE?
Of course its true, but how can this be Brother, "perfection"???
By what i stated above; Father knows your heart and intent; Father forgive me, our Advocate Jesus Christ the righteous says....Father i paid for that sin, and wins our case by HIS precious blood!...We are perfect again in the Father's eyes......By the righteousness of Yahoshua, Jesus!
Therefore in the Spirit, walking in the Spirit we will not sin, if we walk in the flesh or slip into sin, we have an ADVOCATE, Yahoshua, Jesus; who we confess our sins is faithfull and forgives our sins, the LAW has NO penalty...If we have confessed and repented and walk in the Spirit!
But woe to the man that thinks he can willfully walk in the flesh, sin and live there not walking in the Spirit....His end shall be death, reaping to himself corruption...HEED the warnings Church..............
On your statement about "eternal life"; it is a person. Yahoshua [heb], Jesus! The truth also is the one and same person. To walk away from Yahoshua [this name in heb. means YHWH is salvation]is to walk away from "Eternal Life".
The seal [explained by bhl above] is the earnest of HIS promise, to forever be with HIM Yahoshua {eternal life}; to walk away from Yahoshua and walking in the SPIRIT, and continue therein....YOU WILL HAVE TO PAY FOR BREAKING THE LAW...for you have no advocate other than Yahoshua [JESUS}...and to do that one will fall under the penalty of the LAW>>>DEATH
Ive perhaps said enough...
Dear Sister Carol, as i said before i see your heart in many posts here, and i appreciate your love for not only God, byut HIS people.
Hope i explained form my heart how i see OSAS...
Keep the faith dear Sister..
bondservant
barry
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
Brother wildb (Bill posted these statements:
quote:
WOW!
So Please do tell the baseball fans where Paul instructs, teaches, admonishes, a CHILD OF GOD how, when and where to UN SEAL what GOD HAS SEALED!
You and the rest that hold this opinion are GREATLY MISLEAD!
Your mix and match of scrip is a very great sadness.
Please EXPLAIN, in your sillyness what PAUL is teaching!
Ephesians, Chapter 1, 13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians, Chapter 4, 30: And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Once Sealed Always Sealed until GOD REDEEMS is what it reads to me by the POWER and GRACE of our LORD.
PLEASE STOP BUMPING THIS POST TO THE TOP!
You are wrong with your interpretation.
Methinks that Brother Dale (becausehelives) answered those statements adeqautely..in the above post.
Thankyou Brother Dale for the insight here.
bondservant
barry
Let me ask you 2 this. When God passed between those pieces that Abram had laid out,that heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
Was Abram circumcised?
And what was counted to him for righteousness?
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That is all.....
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barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35
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posted
Brother wildb (Bill posted these statements:
quote:
WOW!
So Please do tell the baseball fans where Paul instructs, teaches, admonishes, a CHILD OF GOD how, when and where to UN SEAL what GOD HAS SEALED!
You and the rest that hold this opinion are GREATLY MISLEAD!
Your mix and match of scrip is a very great sadness.
Please EXPLAIN, in your sillyness what PAUL is teaching!
Ephesians, Chapter 1, 13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians, Chapter 4, 30: And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Once Sealed Always Sealed until GOD REDEEMS is what it reads to me by the POWER and GRACE of our LORD.
PLEASE STOP BUMPING THIS POST TO THE TOP!
You are wrong with your interpretation.
Methinks that Brother Dale (becausehelives) answered those statements adeqautely..in the above post.
Thankyou Brother Dale for the insight here.
bondservant
barry
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
"Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction." 2Peter 3:15,16
rightly dividing the Word of Truth / the whole council of Yahweh
Sealed by the Spirit
In 2 Cor. 1:21-22, we read, "Now he that established us with you in Christ, and anointed us, is God; who also sealed us, and gave us the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts." In Eph. 1:13-14, we read, "in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, -- in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God's own possession, unto the praise of his glory." Ephesians 4:30 says, "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, in whom ye were sealed unto the day of redemption."
Calvinistic theologians take these passages to mean that one who has ever believed in the Lord is at that moment granted salvation from sin and its punishment, and that salvation is secured so that there is no possibility of it being lost, for he is "sealed and secured" by God and given a pledge that he can never be lost. It is often styled "eternal security of the believer," or "impossibility of apostasy."
We would have no argument with the idea of the eternal security of the believer if those who use the terms would use them as God does. That is, a "believer" is a faithful child of God who is "walking in the light, as He is in the light (1 Jn. 1:7), a sheep in the fold of Christ who is "hearing the voice of Jesus and following Him" (John 10:27-28). We contend that all the powers of evil on earth or in hell cannot cause a person to be lost who is following the voice of Jesus and doing His will. He has "eternal security." The questions, however, are: May a person who is a believer ever fall away from the faith or cease to be a believer? May a person's love for Christ grow cold? (Mt. 24:12). A person who was a 'goat' ceased to be a goat and became a sheep. May a person cease to be a sheep, and leave the fold? When we consider all the Bible warnings, we know that he can. So, in order to better understand the idea of being "sealed" and having an "earnest of the Spirit," let us examine those terms and see their meaning more completely.
There is little doubt that the term "earnest," from the Greek "arrabon" originally referred to what we call "earnest money" deposited by a purchaser as a down payment, and to be forfeited if the purchase was not complete, or the agreement broken. In the New Testament it is suggested that the Holy Spirit is given to a Christian as a divine pledge or down payment on the future blessings that God has in store for us.
Surely every Christian is at least dimly aware that every spiritual blessing he now has in Christ is but a foretaste, a sort of "down payment," of the life and blessings God has reserved in heaven for us "who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation reserved in heaven for us, ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Pet. 1:4-5). Note that we are kept by the power of God, but it is through faith. The basic question with which we are dealing is, "Once the earnest money was given, did it necessarily follow that the thing purchased was unconditionally guaranteed?" The answer should be apparent whether one looks at any purchase today, or how the term applied in either the Old Testament or the New. There were and are terms of any contract, will or covenant. If one party does not abide by the terms, the earnest money that was put down is forfeit. Anyone who ever put up "earnest money" to buy a house may have discovered that.
1 John 3:23-24 is one among many passages that teach that abiding in Christ is dependent upon keeping His commandments. If we grieve the Spirit (Eph. 4:30, quench the Spirit (1 Thes. 5:19), do despite to the Spirit (Heb. 10:29), then we may break the contract or the relationship that existed when the earnest was given.
Now let us examine briefly what is meant by the "seal." The noun "sphragio" and the verb, "sphragizo" are used in various ways to indicate ownership, security, authentication, etc., in a way that is very similar to how we use the word "seal" in the English language. We seal a letter by moistening the glue. A notary puts his seal on a document to attest to the fact that the party or parties involved actually gave the testimony indicated, or that the signatures are valid. When the tomb of Jesus was sealed (Mt. 27:66), it was for the purpose of fixing it so the body could not easily be removed. It was not meant to be broken, but note carefully that although it was not meant to be broken, it was. When we seal a letter, it is not meant to be opened before it gets to its destination, but it can be. When a notary puts his seal on an agreement, the agreement is not supposed to be broken, but it can be.
When God gives the Holy Spirit to His children as an authentication that He has bought us, and we belong to Him, that seals an agreement that we have made with Him that we accept the authority of Jesus as Lord, and belong to Him forever. That in no way implies that we cannot break that agreement, and be unfaithful. When Abraham received "the sign of circumcision, as a seal of the righteousness of faith which he had" (Rom. 4:11) God was attesting to the fact that Abraham and his descendants who kept the ritual properly, and obeyed the law would be His special people. It did NOT signify that they could not break His covenant, be disobedient and be cut off from the blessings promised. Surely no person who reads the history of Israel could logically conclude otherwise.
To summarize: God has put His "stamp of approval" (seal) on us as His children by giving us His Spirit (Rom. 8:9; 1 Cor. 3:16). If we demonstrate that we are His by producing the fruit of the Spirit, then this seal shows that we are owned by Him and are under His protection and authority. We may fail to do that, "break the seal" and be lost. Even in the context of Ephesians 4:30-32 when Paul says we are sealed unto the day of redemption, he warns us not to grieve the Holy Spirit, and to be kind and forgiving. Jesus said that God will not forgive us if we do not forgive others (Mt. 6:14-18). So we must conclude that though He has sealed us with the Spirit, and the Lord knows who are His (2 Tim. 2:19), if we do not depart from unrighteousness we will be lost, or as we might put it, the seal will be broken.
The Holy Spirit is both an earnest (a foretaste of what God has in store for us) and a seal, but those terms do not refer to the same function or purpose, for the Holy Spirit as a seal is showing that we belong to Him and are under His authority and care, and the Holy Spirit as an earnest is to give us an idea of what we shall have as a result of belonging to Him.
T. Pierce Brown
Published in The Old Paths Archive
(http://www.oldpaths.com)
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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barrykind
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posted
Did any of you read my post about Hebrews....
Its very interesting and clears a lot of misconception...
I feel all of you are my brothers and or sisters in the Messiah, Grk The Christ; Jesus; Yahoshua, saying that all of you that profess The Master,
All of you that Love Jesus (Yahoshua), and the Father [Yahweh].
Im certainly not some great Prophet, nor teacher, nor anything other than one that is trying to live a life of love.
The name of the Father and His Son are another topic all together.
The LAW is only breifly mentioned in this study.
Fot it also is a large post and very indepth.
i have many things to say, and many things to learn.
ANY AND ALL SCRIPTURE THAT ANYONE BRINGS TO ME, AND THIS POST, NEEDS TO BE LOOKED AT, PRAYERFULLY CONSIDERED AND IT MUST BE EXAMINED; IN THE LIGHT OF ALL OF GOD'S WORD
If my Brother ie; such as Brother Bill posts a scripture, i assume he believes that it means what he states and he therefore uses the scripture to try and prove his point or open someone's eyes that they might see. Such as i do, becausehelives does, sister Carol does, Shaul etc., etc.
Is this not the truth? well unless one is trying to delibertly sow discard, and or twist scriptures mearly for the point of confusion or to "win a debate" at any cost, to me they are to be respected, and given every opportunity to prove, or to show why they see a doctrine as such. This to me is love of one another. I may adimately disagree with some of you; but by HIS grace i pray i show: Patience, understanding and respect along with LOVE to any and all that post what they see and believe.
Do we not expect the same of others?
Im not a moderator, although i was for quite a time; im really (to those who do not know me) i mean really (prob. more than anytime in my life), searching for all the truth; and that is found in the Son of the MOST HIGH GOD!
i do not know niether Shaul nor wildb (BILL), but i do not question eithers sincereity. When one "casts their pearls before swine" to ME; it is not talking about a brother, for we all know that IRON sharpens IRON! It perhaps may be talking about the Pharasee or Saducees, maybe even the WORLD per sey; but im sure its not talking about a brother. I considerer wildb (Bill) and you Shaul a Brother until proven otherwise
I will try to answer Sister Carol in another post , perhaps i have said enough for now>
bondservant
barry
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sha'ul:
Just keep oinking wildB, pride comes before the fall, as well as arrogance closed mindedness and the list goes on and on.
Proverbs 24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.
Repent while the day is yet called day.
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That is all.....
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Sha'ul
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posted
Just keep oinking wildB, pride comes before the fall, as well as arrogance closed mindedness and the list goes on and on.
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sha'ul:
One thing I've learned when talking scripture is when someone's eyes are closed,mise well not waste your breath, Jesus said don't throw your pearls before swine. So I hope for your sake that Once saved always saved is true, because not one of your verses that you used to back your point works. God's word is too clear except to those who don't want to see, they want the reward but don't want to have to follow any rules they want it there way not His way, God said I'd rather obedience that sacrafice. So live whatever life you want, good luck with that. Bible says watch out for those who would twist the word. Yeshua is my Lord and Saviour, only by Him shall I enter the kingdom. but I am going to do all I can to be obedient to His commandments because I want to and that's the least I can do considering what He did for me. I don't keep the commandments because I have to(even though His word is clear we are to) I keep them because I want to and it is pleasing to Him. That is all and final.
A few things that I have learned is when someone starts calling others pigs because they clearly see no pearls of wisdom in their opinion of Gods Word but instead wood, hay and stubble. That these people usually invoke "Yeshua" somewhere instead of the name of "Jesus" just to make a show of how much more holy they are.
If you truly could see you would know that all sin and come short of the glory of God. Or do you like calling God a liar?
Now stop your sillyness! Only Christ kept all the commandments without sin.
Once Sealed Always Sealed is indeed a Biblical FACT and it is imputed to us because of our FAITH in the Promise of God...PERIOD! It is also the righteousness of Christ, not ours, that secured this everlasting salvation.
You also totally missed Carols point.
I strongly suggest that you reconsider your opinion that your salvation is some how hinged on a self righteousness.
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That is all.....
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Carol Swenson
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posted
quote:
I don't keep the commandments because I have to(even though His word is clear we are to) I keep them because I want to and it is pleasing to Him. That is all and final.
That is a good summary of the OSAS stand.
Each member of the Triune Godhead is involved in the “love life” of a believer. God the Father commands us to love one another, God the Son gave His life on the cross, the supreme example of love. And God the Holy Spirit lives within us to provide the love we need (Rom. 5:5). To abide in love is to abide in God, and to abide in God is to abide in love. Christian love is not something we “work up” when we need it. Christian love is “shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit,” and this is your constant experience as you abide in Christ.
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Sha'ul
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posted
No wonder God calls us stiffnecked people, Thank you Father for your patience and mercy. For we truly are a rebelious people.
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Sha'ul
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One thing I've learned when talking scripture is when someone's eyes are closed,mise well not waste your breath, Jesus said don't throw your pearls before swine. So I hope for your sake that Once saved always saved is true, because not one of your verses that you used to back your point works. God's word is too clear except to those who don't want to see, they want the reward but don't want to have to follow any rules they want it there way not His way, God said I'd rather obedience that sacrafice. So live whatever life you want, good luck with that. Bible says watch out for those who would twist the word. Yeshua is my Lord and Saviour, only by Him shall I enter the kingdom. but I am going to do all I can to be obedient to His commandments because I want to and that's the least I can do considering what He did for me. I don't keep the commandments because I have to(even though His word is clear we are to) I keep them because I want to and it is pleasing to Him. That is all and final.
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barrykind
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Member # 35
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posted
Brother Bill i borrowed this from The below mentioned pastor to help show how is see Hebrews:
Read all dear honered Brother and We shall take a deep look into theheart of this matter.
HEBREWS:
To Be or Not To Be
HYPOTHETICAL
(By Pastor D. L. Hartman)
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The book of Hebrews is unique or unusual in two distinct ways. One difference is that it is the only book in the New Testament on which the author did not sign his name. This leads to a great deal of speculation within the Christian community. The second is difference is that it plays a critical roll in the debate over the doctrine of Eternal Security.
As it regards the authorship let me share this anecdote. Sometime ago Dr. Bob Jones, III, President of Bob Jones University came to Columbus, Georgia, to speak at our Church. Allow me to pause here to say that I consider Dr. Jones. III a defender of the faith and a friend though we differ on a few doctrines. God bless him. Dr. Jones arrived at the airport and I met him there.
I am not now sure whether I asked him this question going from the airport or back to it. The question was, 'who wrote the book of Hebrews?' He replied that he felt that Paul did. I responded that it could not have been Paul. He looked at me quizzically and asked me who I felt wrote the book. To this I replied that it could not have been Paul because we know that Paul was a Calvinist and the writer of the book was a Arminian. Well, we both got a laugh out of this mere thought.
This illustration seems to give us our first insight of how controversial this book is as to who wrote it and what it teaches. There have been and continues to be many fine Christian leaders, such as Dr. Jones and John Wesley who agree that Paul wrote Hebrews. This message is not about who wrote Hebrews. My humble opinion on this subject is this, I don't know who wrote the book, even after an honest study of this issue. My focus will be on the second difference, which is that this book contains probably the most controversial passage in the New Testament as it applies to the issue of Eternal Security.
This controversy has made a major impact on a nationally known speaker, scholar, and author who used to believe what our Calvinist brothers believe concerning apostasy and Eternal Security. Mr. Clark H. Pinnock, in writing in his book, The Grace of God and the Will of Man, gives this testimony of what happened to him as he studied the book of Hebrews.
"I held onto this view (concerning his view on eternal security) until about 1970, when one of the links in the chain of the tight Calvinian logic broke. It had to do with the doctrine of perseverance of the saints, likely the weakest link in the Calvinian logic, scripturally speaking. I was teaching at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School at the time and attending to the doctrine particularly in the book of Hebrews. If in fact believers enjoy the kind of absolute security Calvinism had taught me they do, I found I could not make very good sense of the vigorous exhortations to persevere (e.g., 3:12) or the awesome warnings not to fall away from Christ (e.g., 10:26), which the book address to Christians. It began to dawn on me that my security in God was linked to my faith-union with Christ and that God is teaching us here the extreme importance of maintaining and not forsaking this relationship . The exhortations and the warnings could only signify that continuing in the grace of God was something that depended at least in part on the human partner. And once I saw that, the logic of Calvinism was broken in principle, and it was only a matter of time before the larger implications of its breaking would dawn one me. The thread was pulled, a nd the garment must begin to unravel, as indeed it did." (1)
This book seems to be as controversial as any when it comes to theology especially as it pertains to the subject of Arminianism and Calvinism. Our Calvinist brothers always points to Romans 8-11 as the unbreakable chain of Calvinism. However, that chain has been broken many times, in many ways, by many people. In the last twenty or thirty years men like Robert Shank, Dale Moody, and Clark Pinnock broke from their Calvinist positions and lived to write about it. There are still others, from all denominations, who have stood firm armed only with Scripture and broke this so-called "unbreakable chain." As we heard from Dr. Pinnock's testimony above, the book of Hebrews seems to play a critical role on the last point in the doctrine of Calvinism called Perseverance of the Saints which is commonly known as the doctrine of Eternal Security.
It would be important for us to investigate why this book was written. You too, like Dr. Jones and Wesley, may surmise that St. Paul wrote this book. Who wrote it is not the focus of this topic unless for some unknown reason, by knowing the author, it would give us the keys to understanding these warnings. The focus of this deliberation is "why did this author, whoever he was, write this book.? Was it to prove the superiority of Christ to the Old Testament sacrifices, or was this book written to counsel, exhort, and warn the reader with all his heart to remain faithful in and to Christ? Once this question is answered, Hebrews 6:4-6 will become clear in its meaning.
In this paper I will be examining the Book of Hebrews as to the following,
I. Why this book was written.
II. An overview of the Book of Hebrews.
III. Definitions.
IV. An Examination Hebrews 6:4-6.
I. Why this book was written? The question of why this book was written must be considered in conjunction with 6:4-6.
A. Many say that the writer was trying to establish the superiority of Christ in His atoning work. They point to passages that reference the concept that Christ is superior, ie,1:1-14. Some point to other chapters, such as Chapters 7-9, that reference His high priestly office. There is no doubt that such can be drawn from these passages.
In his preface to his book on Hebrews, Dr. Homer Kent says, "This remarkable letter contains the only full discussion in the New Testament of Christ as the believers' high priest." (2) He continues, "The masterful and systematic demonstration of Christ's superiorities is unmatched by any other New Testament writer." (3) Dr. F. F. Bruce says, "The purpose of our author's exegesis of Old Testament Scripture, as of his general argument, is to establish the finality of the Gospel...He establishes the finality of Christianity by establishing the supremacy of Christ, in His person and in His work." Other writers such as Henry Ironside, William Newell, and William Barclay seem to concur with these views in their own ways.
The concept of Christ's superiority is not being questioned. Without Christ and His atoning work there would be no hope of salvation for us today. The doctrines of Christ are well established in the rest of the New Testament. His atoning work on the cross of Calvary is the grand theme of the entire New Testament. (4) His sacrifice was well certified in other books of the Bible.(5)
B. Could it be safely advanced that this epistle was not written just to establish the superiority of Christ, but also to establish the grave danger of rejecting the way of salvation which Christ provided? Was the author using this important doctrine, which is the very foundation of Christianity, to exhort the Hebrews, Christians and warn them of the great loss it would produce if Christ is denied? I think so.
In his commentary on Hebrews, Henry Williams confirms this concept when he says, "We are justified, then, in regarding the Epistle as designed specially to confirm the believing Hebrews in their faith, to guard them against the danger of apostasy, and open to them the superior glory of that dispensation under which it was their privilege to live."(6) In point six, "the design and general argument of the Epistle," of Barne's Notes on the New Testament, it says: "The general purpose of this epistle is, to preserve those to whom it was sent from the danger of apostasy." (7) Later in this section he goes on to say that their danger was not totally because of persecution, some of which was taking place, but "it was that of being affected by...relapsing again into the religion of their fathers, and of apostatizing from the gospel; and it was a danger which beset no other part of the Christian world. To meet and counteract this danger was the design of this epistle." (8) So we see that both of these writers agree with the concept that it was to establish the grave danger of rejecting Christ.
There is more still. The Abington Bible Commentary says this, and I quote at length:
"The supreme peril of the church under the stress of persecution was the peril of relapse, and the primary object of the Epistle to the Hebrews is to face this peril and stem the tide of desertion. There is hardly a chapter in the Epistle which does not contain an appeal or a warning to those whose faith was faltering. The writer continually points to the suffering of Christ as an example to be followed and urges his fellow Christians to be stead fast, that they too may be perfected through suffering. Even Jesus had to learn obedience "by the things which He suffered," and His followers must be scholars in the some stern school. Suffering is always hard and cruel, but out of its soil there springs up the harvest of righteousness. Nor does the writer hesitate to warn his readers in the harshest terms about the danger that comes from the compromise of faith." (9)
Therefore, we conclude that the author of this epistle was speaking against the danger of relapsing back to the old religion from which they came whether Jew or Gentile. The hazard of rejecting the superiority of Christ's atonement for the old paths where real. The author used the superiority of Christ to rebut this apostasy, and not to re-teach the doctrines of Christ.
II. At this point I would like to give an overview of the Book of Hebrews. I perceive that much can be said about this book on the subject of Eternal Security. We realize that our Calvinist friends have problems with many Biblical concepts like the human responsibility and God's desire to save all people. The concept being taught in this book gives our friends still another problem. What is clearly being taught here in Hebrews is the concept that a Christian could possibly fall from grace. This concept is the doctrine called Apostasy. If one stops and thinks about Apostasy, human responsibility, and God's desire to save all people, we can see God's dynamic interaction with man and the world. This interaction then could be called the heart and soul of the Arminian thought. The message of this book is clear to all: keep the faith! That is the dynamic God wants from these Christians.
Most agree that there are five basic warnings given in this book. It is interesting to note that because of three of these warning Martin Luther wanted to drop this book from the New Testament canon.(10) Martin Luther wanted to drop the book, but our Calvinist friends would rather deny real Apostasy and thereby twist the message of the book. God in His sovereignty has overruled both.
What is striking about this book is that the writer never wanders far until he issues another warning. As we look at these warning passages, I will endeavor to cite the more important segments of these passages as they relate to this topic.
Now, let us look at the first warning and exhortation. Hebrews 2:1-4 says, "Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation...confirmed unto us by them that heard him."(11) There is a principal taught in Bible schools and seminories about what to do when you come to the word "therefore" as you study Scripture. Simply look to see what it is therefore or why it is there. "Therefore" in this first warning "expresses a logical imperative: from the fact that Christ is greater than the angles it follows that the revelation delivered through the Son must be regarded with the utmost seriousness. The writer insists that adherence to the Christ tradition is the one thing that is necessary." (12) The practical conclusion is that these people, as do we, have a greater responsibility because they now possess Christ, as opposed to the older dispensations of prophets, angels or messengers, and sacrifies. How can we escape if we neglect and let slip what Christ has done for us? How, indeed?
We come now to the second warning and exhortation. It is found in Hebrews chapter three. Lets look at some of this warning. "Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant...But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence...and hope firm unto the end. Harden not your hearts...Take heed, brethren..." Let me pause here and point out that he calls them "brethren" which clearly signifies that he is talking to Christians. "Exhort one another daily...lest any of you be harden through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning or our confidence steadfast unto the end."(13)
We note that this warning was given to the "holy brethren" and "partakers of Christ" denoting a personal relationship with our Lord. Simply put, just as Israel under the leadership of Moses had to labor and follow to enter into that "promised rest," so must the Christians labor under the leadership of Christ to enter into the "promised rest." The condition of entering is to "hold fast" to their hope in Christ.
I. H. Marshall says this of the second warning: "He stresses the faithfulness of Jesus who, like Moses, was set over God's household, but this leads him to the thought that Christians are members of this household only if they display the same faithfulness, and from this there develops a comparison of the Church with Israel and salvation with the rest promised to the people of God."(14)
Hebrews 4:1-16 holds the third warning and exhortation. Let's look at some of these. "Let us therefore fear, lest a promise being left us of entering into His rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. ... let us hold fast our profession. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." (15) This warning and exhortation has in mind Psalms 95 which reviews the transgression of His chosen people who after being wonderfully delivered from Egypt and escaping through the Red Sea. did not make it after all that God did for them. This chapter discusses the unbelief factor which lead to many individuals in Israel not receiving their eternal reward.
H. Orton Wiley has this to say: "Ancient Israel refused the highest that God had for them and perished miserably in the wilderness. The Hebrew Christians at this time were tempted to return to the law imposed upon them from without, and were not pressing on into the new covenant in Christ, in which through the Spirit the law would be written in their hearts and in their minds. With this Old Testament example before him, the writer warns them - and us, lest we too should fail through unbelief." (16)
The fourth warning and exhortation that we find is in Hebrews 5:11-6:20. I realize that Hebrews 6:4-6 will be my final focus of this address. Yet those verses help to make up part of the fourth warning and therefore demand a brief consideration here. As usual I will cite the more important phrases. "Seeing ye are dull of hearing... For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again ... let us go unto perfection, ... For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened...If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame ... And we desire that every on of you so shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: ...That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises...and so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise."(17) This warning will be examined when we look at Hebrews chapter 6:4-6.
We conclude with the fifth warning and exhortation. Let's look again at some of the more prominent passages found in this warning. We will be looking at Hebrews 10:19-39. "Let us draw near with a true heart ...Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering...Let us consider on another to provoke unto love and to good works:...Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, ...but exhorting one another...For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins...He that despised Moses' law died without mercy...Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing...It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God....Cast not away therefore your confidence...Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." (18) Probably this is more sever in its warning then Hebrews 6:4-6. We see clearly that these warnings and exhortation are to believers. We get this idea of the first person plural as "brethren" (vs. 19) and "us" which includes the apostle himself as one of them(vs. 20, 22, and 23) and "we" (vs. 26) brings them into a sharp contrast with those who where not saved that may be mixing among them. These passages suggest clearly that they are saved. The lost cannot trample the blood of Christ under foot because they where never sanctified by it. The warnings are clearly to the Christians and not to some fictitious group of people who call themselves Christians and are active in the Church. If these people were not saved, Christ would not be warning them to continue in faith, but to come to grace in Christ Jesus. It is only logical that Christ should call the lost to repentance and warn the saved against committing apostasy.
This overview then shows us that the dominant theme of Hebrews is warnings, exhortations, and encouragement for Christians to continue in faith. Chapter eleven agrees with this concept because it also illustrates the need for continued perseverance by showing these Hebrew Christians that others before them had to persevere in their faith to reach Heaven's "Canaan land."
III. Before we finally arrive at Hebrew 6:4-6, we need to define some terms.
There are two terms that specifically need to be defined. These two terms are "Christian," and "Apostasy." When I looked up the word "Apostasy" in Wesley's Works, I found that Mr. Wesley more or less assumed that all understood what this term meant. As for that matter so did most other writers. The same thing was true with the term "Christian." Most authors assume that all know what a Christian is. But a few like Wesley do take time to define this term.
A. When I tried to define the term "Christian" I conducted a very informal survey and asked about 15 people to define what makes a person a Christian? The answers that I got gave me the impression that most did not have a clear idea in their mind what makes a person a Christian. If I were to ask you this question, what would your answer be?
The point is when dealing with our Calvinistic brothers, it is important to know what makes one person a Christian and another just a lost sinner. For the propose of this discussion it is important to find the answer to this question.
It does not take much of a student of Scripture to figure out what makes a person a non- Christian. Such a person is called "lost," or simply a "sinner." He is such because he doesn't believe in Christ Jesus as his Lord and Savior. He may engross himself in drunkenness, homosexuality, gambling, and wife and/or child abuse. He may be involved in trying to stop the proliferation of alcoholism, homosexuality, the lottery, and developing good family values. Mere deeds, good or bad, does not cause one to be a sinner or a Christian. Remember, a person who does not believe Christ as his personal savior, is a sinner, though he may be active in a church fellowship. This we all agree to, but the question is, what makes a person a Christian?
The term "Christian" is, used only three times in the scripture, twice in Acts and once in I Peter.(19) In all three cases it carries with it the idea of "Christ-followers." But this concept of "Christ-followers" fails to meet with the criteria of what a Christian is for our eternal security friends. Martin Luther was close to this when he defined a Christian a "Little Christ" - - a classic definition of the Word. Because of this problem of being a "Christ-follower" or a "little Christ's" we must farther define what makes a person a Christian or what is a Christian. Can we find a common meaning which both the Calvinists and Arminians espouse?
Let's try this! One writer says "Faith" [is] "simply accepting God's word, believing it, and living in that light." (20) Will this definition fit our quest for common grounds with our Calvinist brothers on what is or is not a Christian? No, for they would argue that even t he Devil believes and trembles. Yet to hear them preach a salvation message they declare that one must believe on Jesus Christ as their Savior. In their own ranks this definition would be satisfactory. But as it relates to the subject at hand and with the Arminian believers this definition is totally unsatisfactory. Therefore, the problem still exists and that is to find an acceptable definition upon which all may agree.
Maybe we need to try a more complex definition of what is a Christian. All agree that a Christian can be referred to as a saint. These terms can be interchanged doing no violence to our topic of the perseverance of the saints in our quest to find an acceptable definition of what is a Christian.
John Wesley does provide us with a complex definition. Here is what he says.
"By saints, I understand, those who are holy or righteous in the judgment of God Himself; those who are endued with the faith that purifies the heart, that produces a good conscience; those who are grafted into the good olive tree, the spiritual, the invisible Church; those who are branches of the tree vine, of whom Christ says "I am the vine, ye are the branches;" those who so effectually know Christ, as by that knowledge to have escaped the pollutions of the world; those who see the light of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ, and who have been made partakers of the holy Ghost, of the witness and the fruits of the Spirit; those who live by faith in the Son of God; those who are sanctified by the blood of the covenant; those to whom all or any of these characters belong, I mean by the term saints." (21)
Of course, I can agree with Wesley's definition of a Christian, but can our eternal security friends agree with it especially as it relates to the subject at hand? I answer "no." They will parse carefully what they mean by using the terms, "100%," "genuinely," "real," "true," and other such adjectives. Had Wesley used "genuine" in one of his phrases and believed in eternal security, his definition would be the standard. The only conclusion that can be made is that in the area of eternal security these brothers would rather die then give ground to the so called Arminians.
When I use the term "Christian," it will be understood as agreeing with all of the above definitions. These definitions will be applied to Hebrews 6:4-6, and for that matter, all of the book of Hebrews.
B. What about the word "Apostasy"? Is there a common definition of "Apostasy" that both the Calvinists and Arminians can accept?
Mr. P. W. Barnett says, "Apostasy is the antonym of conversion; it is deconversion." (22) Still Robert Mattke writes that apostasy "expresses the idea of abandonment of the faith." (23) He continues by saying "In classical Greek the term signifies a defection or revolt from a military commander. Following in its wake came shame, disgrace, infamy, and reproach or censure." (24) As we apply this to early Church history Mr. Mattke says "its apparent that in many instances the persecutions produced a harvest of apostasy." (25)
Let's look at what the Catholic Encyclopedia has to say on this subject. If anyone knows the real definition of apostasy, it ought to be them. "The word itself in its etymological sense, signifies the desertion of a post, the giving up of a state of life; he who voluntarily embraces a definite state of life cannot leave it, therefore, without becoming an apostate." (26)
Dr. Richard Watson, a famous Methodist scholar and theologian, defines apostasy as "a deserting or abandoning of the true religion." (27) He makes an interesting point by saying that an apostate should not be mistaken as a heretic. The difference is that a heretic abandons various parts of the faith, but an apostate renounces the faith. He concludes by saying, they (or apostates), "after having been Christians, voluntarily relapsed in to Paganism." (28)
From these definitions we can only conclude that apostasy means that people can fall from faith and grace, to such an extent that they may lose their salvation. To call apostate a person who has attended church and was never saved is strange, to say the least. This is an illogical conclusion which means that all lost people are apostates. This is the melancholy logic that is foisted on this subject all the time. This idea that they where never saved to begin with, in the case of apostasy, is indisputably illogical and makes no sense Biblically. A sinner is a sinner, and an apostate is a Christian who give up his promise of the Heavenly Canaan land for the pleasures of sin. Indeed II Peter 2:21 gives the true picture of what an apostate is when it says, "For it had been better for them not to have know the way of righteousness, then, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."
Before we move on to the final point of Hebrews 6:4-6, let's review what we had thus far observed. First, we found that while there are scholars who teach that Hebrews was written to establish the superiority of Christ, there are others who feel that the main reason for this writing is to warn and exhort these Christians against the perils of apostasy. Simply put, Dr. Williams said it is "to guard them against the danger of apostasy."(29)
Second, as we surveyed this book, we found that this conclusion was correct. We established that after every discussion of Christ's superiority there were warnings. A prime example of this is when Christ's superiority over the angels ends in the first chapter, the second chapter starts with the warnings to hold firm the faith. Even in a non-warning passage such as chapter eleven we find the exhortation to continue in faith. This the author shows by giving the examples of what past believers received by tenaciously believing even in time of hardness. We find no other Scripture that equals this definition of faith. As Dr. Moody observed after a discussion of this passage he says: "with perseverance the promise will be inherited." (30)
Third, we defined two words that have been abused in this debate, "Christian" and "Apostasy." We considered Wesley's definition of a Christian and concluded that if had he used the word "genuine" the Calvinists would agree with him on his definition as it concerns the subject of eternal security. A person who believes on Christ as their savior is the simplest definition for a Christian. We also found t hat an apostate is a person who has become "unconverted." An apostate lost his salvation in simple terms. We conclude that if a person was never saved to begin with, he could only be called a sinner. It is only logical that an apostate is different from a mere sinner who attends Church.
IV. In this context, we will now consider Hebrews 6:4-6. We know now that it was aimed at Christians. The real question now confronting us is this: what do these verses teach in view of the total context of Hebrews? Or, to put it differently, do we beak with the context and say that these verses apply to those within the Church who were never really saved? If we conclude that they where never saved or weaken the severity of the warnings, then we must say that the context of Hebrews was written to exhort and encourage the lost not to lose what little they never had, and not to Christians to continue steadfast in the faith. There is no defense for the latter question.
Let's look at this passage, and consider it on a verse-by verse basis.
Vs. 4 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Vs. 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Vs. 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
This passage was found in the fourth warning and exhortation. The passage itself speaks of an awful event. In all likelihood this passage among Christians is at least as controversial
as the question of abortion is to the Christian and the world. Dr. Dale Moody says that this passage suffers most "from the sacred art of Scripture twisting."(31) Robert Shank says of the subject of eternal security that it is like the blacksmiths sign that announces all kinds of fancy twistings and turning are done here. This passage suffers from the classical the art of twisting into it or out of it what our eternal security friends want it to say. It is, therefore, not my intent to twist but to clearly speak in terms that we may all understand.
A. Allow me to give a general overview of the logic that our Calvinist friends use concerning this passage. There are essentially four theories that our Calvinistic brothers use to defend their faith in eternal security. These are: the professors-not possessors theory, the disqualification theory, the scarecrow theory, and, the hypothetical theory.
The professors-not possessors theory basically teaches that Hebrews 6:4-6 are professed believers who have never "really" been saved nor do they posses salvation. This passage then is "referring to those who have been to Christian truth, and may even have shown some apparent evidences of conversion, but these are abortive (like the seed sown on the rocky ground). The apostasy is explained as the settled and final rejection of Christ."(32) Friends, the people that this theory is talking about are simply guilty of not believing. They had nothing to reject. How could they be guilty of apostasy if apostasy means "unconversion"?
disqualification theory which mirrors the saved person who backslide theory. Both agree that a "true" believer is secure. However, this passage does not teach that position. In order to make some sort of sense they come up with these theories. Dr. Hurtado says that this passage is "referring to those whose carnality results in their disqualification from the Christian race and a loss of rewards, but not their salvation." (33) Still another twist to this passage is the theory given by Dr. Kent, when he says that "they explain the 'falling way' as a falling into sin to the extent that they are in danger of divine chastening."(34) Had apostle Paul known this theory, he would have never worried about being a castaway. In reality chastising and rewards have nothing to do with this passage and that renders this theory in total denial of the context of this passage.
The "scarecrow theory" (35) is intended to scare wavering believers to ensure that they do not commit apostasy. If a Christian is then informed of this scarecrow, (6:4-6), then he is enlightened to the fact of this passage and it becomes nothing to be scared of at all. "If this theory is true, does this not impugn the character of God as a God of truth"(36) and therefore all warnings will not to be taken seriously. This passage is just there to scare Christians to holiness.
Finally, we come to the hypothetical theory. This theory claims, according to Dr. Kent, that the "warning in Hebrews 6 was hypothetical. Its purpose was to exhort believers into obedience by revealing the seriousness of denying Christ. This view seeks to mediate the apparent teaching of the passage (that a true believer can lose his salvation) with the doctrine of the believers's security." (37) At least this theory agrees that the people spoken of in Hebrews 6 are believers, and that's a good start. But note, these people can not prove the doctrine of eternal security without defending the other five points of Calvin's doctrines. The Scriptures have spoken, but they have not listened.
There is no logical reason for these theories except this: "THC." In some illegal drugs there is a chemical called "THC" that negatively affects the thinking functions of the brain. These theories came about in order to protect one, if not all, five points of their beloved Calvinist dogma. Because of this they are not thinking clearly concerning this passage. Therefore, in a real theological sense of the word they have been theologically drugged. They too, have a "THC" imbalance meaning "Too-much Hyper-Calvinism."
B. The last position or theory to be discussed is the saved-lost theory . This theory more than the first four, clearly agrees with the teaching of Hebrews 6:4-6. It is at harmony with the context of this book, and the definitions of a Christian and Apostasy. Therefore, it is probably less of a theory and more of a fact, that a Christian can commit Apostasy and be hopelessly lost.
"For it is impossible for those who where once enlightened." Enlightened is the first of the five aorist participles used in verses four and five. The word once in the Greek is hapax means 'once and for all,' which "points to something complete."(38) Dr. Kent says that enlightened is the same word for illuminated in 10:32. He continues, "the same participle is used in 10:32, with no hint that there was any thing i nadequate or tentative about their spiritualenlightenment. Normal understanding of the passage in 10:32 as well as 6:4 would lead us to assume real enlightenment by regeneration." (39) Dr. William Newell seems to agree with Kent. He says, "This 'enlightenment' then, about Christ, was the same which those finally saved received."(40) John Wesley says that enlightened is "an expression familiar with the Apostle, (he believed Paul wrote it) and never by him applied to any but believers." (41) From this we can only conclude that the person "once enlightened" were regenerated and believers in Christ as their personal savior. They are "true" Christians.
"And have tasted of the heavenly gift ." Let me say at the beginning that "taste" here does not reflect that idea of a mere sampling. Dr. Kent says that this "verb itself did not mean a mere sampling, but a real experience, as its use in Acts 10:10 attests. The writer of Hebrews has already used "tasted" in the sense of "experienced" in 2:9, where Christ "tasted death." (42) Dr. Kent says that "surely the meaning is that He actually experienced it." (43) Dr. Kent strongly suggests that Christ Himself is meant by heavenly gift. Dr. Newell feels that taste here does not mean a real complete personal experience. He counters this with the example of the Samaritan woman when our Lord tells her "whosoever drinketh" will have eternal life. Dr. Newell therefore concludes that they did not have a real experience because they only tasted and did not drink. Is not drinking an experience? When Christ tasted death for us, did he just die a little? When the Psalmist says in 34:8 "Oh, taste and see that the Lord is good;" as well as I Peter 2:3 "If so be ye have tasted that the lord is gracious," means that these people are commanded to just sample it? Did the reality of this passage get too hot for Dr. Newell? Dr. Henry Williams says that this "term expresses the intimate knowledge which is derived from personal experience." (44) Again we can only conclude that these persons are born again Christians.
"And where made partakers of the Holy Ghost." The word "partakers," according to Thayer, can also be translated as sharing. "Partakers" is the same word that was used 3:1 when the apostle writes, "Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling." Here there is no dispute that those who are sharers or partakers are Christians. Speaking on 3:1, Dr. Newell says that the "Holy Brethren" in this verse, "is not a reference to brethren by race, but to those believing on Christ ...'sanctified in Christ Jesus.'"(45) Newell continues by saying that "these Hebrew believers are saluted as 'partakers of a heavenly calling .'" (46) Here Dr. Newell sees partakers as being Christians. Yet this same writer belittles the same word "partakers" in 6:4 by saying this. "Note at once, it is not said that these were sealed with the Spirit, as were those at Pentecost, and in Samaria, and in Ephesus, who were "sealed unto the day of redemption;'" (47) His observation is very good but his logic is very poor. If we apply his reasoning, Jesus lied when He said that "whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Instead Jesus should have said "whosoever believeth and is sealed." This is a high-handed theological twist by Dr. Newell. To say that because the words 'drink' and 'sealed' are not used thereby means that they are not real Christians, is to say that they must always use these two words when referencing a saved person. If his logic is applied then Crispus, those that believed after Paul's sermon on Mars Hill, Lydia, and the Philippian Jailor are not saved because the words drink and sealed are not used. That is totally illogical to say the least, nor do the scriptures admit to Dr. Newell's notion. I don't think that he really wants to defend this kind of twisted logic.
We must understand the word 'partakers' or 'sharers' as meaning the real thing: a Christian. Dr. Kent says, "to dilute this expression is inconsistent with the author's employment of the term elsewhere. The statement thus asserts a sharing of the Holy Spirit, and in the Christian context of this epistle, it refers to sharing of the Spirit's indwelling presence. Normal understanding of the phrase would lead to the conclusion that such persons are viewed as regenerated, not merely exposed to the Spirit's convicting power but unresponsive to it." (48) Dr. Samuel Wakefield agrees with this point saying "They 'were made partakers of the Holy Ghost:' which evidently means, in the language of the New Testament, to receive the Holy Ghost in his sanctifying and comforting influences." (49)
"And have tasted the good word of God." Dr. Kent says that this "refers to the experiencing...the Word of God in the Gospel and finding it good." (50) Dr. Wakefield says that they "heartily embraced the word of truth, and realized the saving power of the Gospel dispensation." (51) Dr. Williams says that "they had the clearest inward testimony of the reality of His grace, and the blessedness of His salvation." (52) What more can be said of a "true" believer in Christ?
From verses four and five we can only conclude that the people who the apostle is speaking of are saved people. This, then, is a warning that might spare their souls from eternal damnation if they take heed. Lost people are normally not talked about in such terms.
"If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." This is probably one of the most severe and difficult verses in Scripture to grasp. Verses four and five clearly teach that the persons talked about are Christians. Verse six concludes with a real warning to real Christians.
Dr. Wakefield says that the "apostle makes no supposition at all; for there is no "if" in the original. His words are 'and have fallen away.'" (53) The NASB also agrees by saying "and then have fallen way." From this we can truthfully conclude that a true believer is meant here and thereby setting forth the possibility of apostasy. There is no hypothetical supposition here.
Fall away means "to fall away utterly" (54) according to Lenski. Dr. Kent says that "fall way" can "hardly refer to sins committed through weakness, for which Scripture gives many examples of restoration in both Old Testament and New Testament...Hence the normal understanding of these descriptive terms in the light of the author's own usage elsewhere in the epistle, is of those who are regenerated and then repudiate Christ and forsake Him." (55) These are true, real, possessing, genuine, and 100% Christians. They fell utterly from the saving grace of God. This is not a mere loss of rewards, or personal piety. This fall was not caused by some weakness of the flesh or an adulterous afair. This sin was the rejection of Christ and all that was accomplished on the cross of Calvary. As Dr Kent says, "It is not a question of needing to be saved again." (56)
The rejection of Christ by these apostates amount to recrucifying him as surely as the Jews did the first time. You don't reject Christ's work of salvation and inherit eternal life with Him. Again Dr. Kent says that "no strong reason exists for not employing the common meaning here. The author's point is that those who experience all that Christ provides and then turns away from Him in a settled and final way are really joining the ranks of those who crucified Jesus...by renouncing Christ, they bring more public shame upon Him than if they had never believed at all."(57) We can simply conclude that if these Christians continue to insist on this rejection there will be no hope for them. They will have lost their salvation.
I have quoted from Dr. Kent at large in this last section. We can certainly agree with his interpretation of this passage. What is so interesting is after he honestly gave the correct meaning of these verses we find him unable to let go of his Eternal Security position. He calls this warning hypothetical. Why? Because he believes in the Eternal Security of the believer. He sees eternal security as a cardinal doctrine of the faith. To deny this doctrine to a Calvinist is like denying the faith. The only problem is that no where in the scriptures do we find the terms "once saved, always saved," "once in grace always in grace," "once a child of God always a child of God," "ye can never lose your salvation," or "ye are eternally secure," when speaking of the children of God. No such phrases are found in the Greek, much less any other translations. Eternal Security can only be rationalized if you embrace all five points of Calvinism. Like many other Calvinists, Dr. Kent is honest, but he simply can not bring himself to accept the truth. Many there are today who have been brainwashed to this doctrine. Yet God has aroused the hearts of many to reject this doctrine because God's truth is the only counter drug to stop "THC."
As we surveyed this book, we found that the warnings were real, written to real Christians, an that one became and apostate when "deconversion" took place. This warning was given in hopes of preventing such apostasy. If such apostasy could not take place God would not have found it necessary to give the warning. The warning in 6:4-6 was written to real Christians who were in the real process of committing real apostasy. Nothing hypothetical here!
John Wesley said of this passage, "Must not every unprejudiced person see, the expressions here used are so strong and clear, that they cannot, without gross and palpable wresting, be understood of any but true believers?" (58) He concludes his discussion, and so I do mine, of this passage by saying "It is impossible to renew again unto repentance those who were once enlightened' and have fallen away; therefore they must perish everlastingly." (59) I can only say Amen!
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1. The Grace of God and the Will of Man, Clark H. Pinnock, ed. (Bethany House Publishers, Minneapolis, Minnesota. (1989, Rpt., 1995)) 17 One of the contributors to this book, Dr. Richard Rice, says that a "number of evangelical theologians have abandoned the traditional view of divine immutability." This is very unfortunate. God is unchangeable or how else can we trust Him for the way of Salvation? Where Dr. Pinnock stands on this issue is unclear. There are still other issues that Dr. Pinnock is off on. Even as an Arminian there are those fundamentals doctrines that must be accepted and believed if one is to stand for Christ.
2. The Epistle to Hebrews, Homer A. Kent, Jr.; (Winona Lake, Indiana, BMH, 4th ed, 1995) 9
3. Kent Jr. p 9
4. Matt. 20:28; I Tim. 2:6; and Gal. 1:13
5. John 1:29; Rom.4:24 and Rom.5:6-10; and 1Pet.3:18-
6. Epistle to the Hebrews, Rev. Henry W. Williams, (London, Wesleyan Conference Office 1871) 31
7. Barns Notes on the New Testament, Albert Barne's,
8. Barns
9. The Abingdon Bible Commentary, Frederick Carl Eiselen, ed., (Nashville: Abingdon - Cokesbury, 1929.) 1295
10. Apostasy, Dr. Dale Moody, (Greenville, S.C., Smyth & Helwys Publishing, Inc.,
1991.) 67
11. Hebrews 2:1 and 3
12. Word Biblical Commentary: Volume 47a, Hebrews 1-8, William L. Lane. (Dallas: Word Book Publishers, 1991.) 37
13. Hebrews 3:5-6, 12-13
14. Kept by the Power of God, I. Howard Marshall, (Minneapolis, Minnesota, Bethany Fellowship, Inc., 1969.) 139-140
15. Hebrews 4:1, 11, 14, and 16
16. The Epistle to the Hebrews, H. Orton Wiley. (Kansas City, Missouri, Beacon Hill Press, 1984.) 123
17. Hebrews 5:11, 12; 6:1, 4, 6, 11, 12, and 15
18. Hebrews: 10:22, 23, 25, 26, 28, 29, 31,35, and 38
19. Acts 11:26; 26:28; I Peter 4:16
20. Grace Unlimited, Clark Pinnock ed., (Minneapolis, Minnesota, Bethany House Publishers, 1975.) 156
21. The Works of John Wesley, Volume 10, Thomas Jackson ed., (Salem, Ohio, Schmul Publishers, 1979.) 285
22. Dictionary of the Later New Testament and its Developments, Ralph P. Martin and Peter H. Davids, ed.., (Downers Grove, IL. Inter Varsity Press, 1997.) 73
23. Beacon Dictionary of Theology, Richard S. Taylor, ed., (Kansas City, Beacon Hill Press, 1983.) 44-45,
24. Ibid
25. Ibid
26. The Catholic Encyclopedia (Internet copy http://www.knight.org/advent/cathen/01624b.htm)
27. A Biblical and Theological Dictionary, Richard Watson, (New York, B. Waugh and T. Mason, 1833.) 71-72
28. Ibid
29. Williams, p 31
30. Apostasy, Dale Moody. (Greenville, South Carolina, Smyth and Helwys Publishing, Inc.,1991.) 45
31. The Word of Truth, Dale Moody. (Grand Rapids: W. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1981) 354
32. The Epistle to the Hebrews, Homer A. Kent, Jr. (Winona Lake: Baker Book House, 1983) 111-112
33. "Are the Persons Described in Hebrews 6:4-6 Christians?" (Internet copy
http://www.leaderu.com/isot/docs/heb2.html)
34. Kent, p. 112
35. This theory was sent to me by Mr. Jeff Paton. He to has researched the subject of Eternal Security and found that there are people who use this theory in defense of this doctrine.
36. Paton
37. Kent, p113
38. Kent, p 108
39. Kent, p 108
40. Hebrews, Verse-by Verse, Dr. William R. Newell. (Grand Rapids: Kregel Classics, 1995.) 185
41. Works, 9:248
42. Kent, p 108
43. Kent, p 108
44. An Exposition of the Epistle to the Hebrews, Henry W. Williams. (London: Wesleyan Conference Office, 1871) 176
45. Newell, p 73
46. Newell, p 75
47. Newell, p 187
48. Kent, p 109
49. Christian Theology, Dr. Samuel Wakefield. (Cincinnati: Walden and Stowe, 1869) 462
50. Kent, p 109
51. Wakefield, p 462
52. Williams, p 179
53. Wakefield, p 462
54. The Interpretation of the Epistle to the Hebrews and of the Epistle of James,
R. C. H. Lenski. (Columbus, Ohio, Wartburg Press, 1946) 185
55. Kent, p 110
56. Kent, p 110
57. Kent, p 110
58. Works, 10:294
59. Works, 10:295
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by HUNTER:
NICE TOPIC,
ALL I KNOW IS THAT SINNERS HAVE NO PART IN GOD'S KINGDOM,WHEN A BELIEVER SINS, HE/SHE IS REGARDED AS A SINNER BEFORE GOD AND IS NOT QUALIFYING FOR ENTRY INTO GOD'S KINGDOM
CHECK EZEKIEL 33V11-14
THANKS
HUNTER
There is no such thing as sinless perfection, except for our Lord Jesus Christ.
“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”—1 John 1:8.
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by Sha'ul:
Hebrews 10:26-27 clearly indicate that we can lose salvation.(And if Charles Stanley truly said that if a believer became an unbeliever that his salvation is still safe, then he was a blasphemer of the word.) How dare any of us to cheapen Messiah's death by making such abomidable statements as once saved always saved, that's one of the biggest false doctrines of satan being taught. Yet Jesus says in many ways, narrow is the road to heaven, the just shall scarcely enter into heaven, not everyone that cries Lord shall enter into to heaven, etc. Jesus would call people who teach this garbage vipers, and your father the devil is a liar looking to deceive many. I know some one is saying, you're not showing the love of Jesus right now. I love you but I'm sick of people twisting God's word around so they can feel good about themself. Matthew 10:34-35 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword." 35 "For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law." 36 "and a man's enemies will be those of his own household." That tells me Jesus looks for those who will actually go by His word and keep His commandments, 1stJohn 2:4 "He who says, I know Him, and does not keep His commandments, IS a LIAR, and the TRUTH is not in him." That IS the final word PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hebrews 10:23-29
Introduction
Hebrews chapter 10 is in many cases a battlefield for the believers. You choose your side and prepare to battle. Someone gives you your ammunition ahead of time so that you don’t have to think much on your own or consider all of the options.
As you are standing on your interpretation someone from the other side fires a shot and puts a hole in your doctrine. What to do now? Do you throw out everything? Probably not….many times it is God himself firing a shot to help you get Bible Doctrine instead of yours. In this study we will TRY to look at this openly.
If salvation can be lost then it was never based on a finished work. Jesus Christ said “It is Finished”. If your salvation is not finished then it is not based on the redeeming work of Christ.
The book of Hebrews was written by Paul and if he wrote in Hebrews that you could lose your salvation then he has brought a curse on himself (Galatians1:9), because he writes all through his epistles about eternal life.
The verses state that if a willful sin is committed by these people that there is no more sacrifice for sins. If this is a saved person then it sounds like the wilfull sins will not be paid for and will be accounted for at the Judgment Seat of Christ. No forgiveness is available between here and there.
Sounds like in verse 29 that this person was sanctified and now they are in danger of judgment.
before we get into the passage let us look at several introductory remarks.
Who Was It Written To
The title of the book says “The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews”. Hebrews1:1 talks about God speaking to the fathers by the prophets, who had fathers and prophets? Hebrews chapter 3 spends time dealing with the fact that Christ is better than Moses. Hebrews chapter 7 talks about the fact that Christ was of a better priestly line than the Levites. Chapters 8 and 9 of Hebrews deal with a better covenant. Hebrews chapter 11 deals with the faith of people who are all a part of the history of Israel.
from the evidence above, we would have to say that this book was written to the Jewish people. This does not mean that we should discard the book of Hebrews or any other Jewish epistles. The book is not written to us, but it is written for us (2 Timothy 3:16).
What Was the Purpose of the Letter?
The book of Hebrews contains the word “better” thirteen times. Christ is better than the angels (Hebrews 1:4), he brought in a better hope than the law (Hebrews 7:19), he was made surety of a better testament (Hebrews 7:22), he is the mediator of a better covenant (Hebrews 8:6), and he was a better sacrifice (Hebrews 9:23).
The book of Hebrews was written to the Jewish people in order to prove that Jesus Christ was “better” than Judaism.
The Time
In order to rightly divide the word of God, we must consider several things. When was the book written, who was it written to, and what does the passage mean to the people to whom it was written? We have already discussed who the book was written to, but let us now look at when it was written.
The book of Hebrews was written nearly 30 years after the death of Christ. The temple was still standing and in operation (Hebrews 13:10-11). Jewish people were persecuted when they accepted Christ (Hebrews 10:32), for many Jews were still zealous over the law (Acts 21:20). Many Jewish people were still living under the banner of Judaism and to accept Christ was to reject Judaism.
The Passage
Now we will look at the question, “what does the passage mean to the people to whom it was written?”
Verse 23
In verse 23, the Apostle Paul says, “Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)”. First notice the word “profession”. A profession is not always true (Romans 1:22). Salvation is not based on our profession, but rather on a belief with the heart and confession of the mouth (Romans 10:9-10). Confession is agreeing with God, for example, when you confess your sins you are agreeing with God against your sins. The Apostle Paul warns the Hebrews not to waver from their profession.
Verses 24-25
These verses were written to exhort the Hebrews to meet together for worship and provoke one another to good works. The early church met often, and one reason was probably to strengthen and encourage each other in times of persecution.
Verses 26-27
Here we have one of the favorite verses of the Armenians, but remember the context of the book of Hebrews. Paul writes, “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”
Notice three things about this passage.
The sin was done on purpose (willfully). One point to make here is that if this is loss of salvation then we’ve all lost it. You say well I haven’t murdered anyone or committed adultery, but that is not what the verse says. The verse says willful sin. That is anything done knowingly that was unrighteous. Have you lied lately? Probably just a white lie….Have you not done something this week that you knew you should have done (James 4:17)
This person has received the knowledge of the truth.
If this proves that these people were saved then we have some problems.
Were all of the religious leaders saved? According to John 3:2 they knew that Jesus came from God. They had received the knowledge of the truth, but they didn’t all get saved.
The devils time and time again called Jesus the Son of God. Were they saved? No, but they sure did have knowledge of the truth.
So we see that knowledge of the truth in itself merits nothing, but faith in a person is what receives salvation.
After this sin there is no more sacrifice for sin. Keep in mind this is written to the Jewish people. What sin is it when done on purpose, allows no more sacrifice for sins?
Let us look at a scenario. A Jewish boy is born about the time of Christ’s death. He was raised to go to Jerusalem three times a year to appear before the Lord (Exodus 23:14,17; Deuteronomy 16:16). He went through all of the ceremonies and went to the schools of the Hebrews. He was taught to look for the coming of the Messiah, that He would come as a King to deliver His people. Then at about the age of 30, this young man hears a message preached that Jesus Christ was the Messiah and that He died for the sins of the whole world. This young man learns more and more about the life of Christ, and begins to compare it with the law and the prophets. God opens his eyes to the fact that Christ was in fact the Messiah and that he must receive Christ by faith. Up to this point he like the apostle Paul has been zealous for God in the law, but now he has “received the knowledge of the truth”. If he receives Christ, then he will be persecuted greatly and his family will probably have a funeral for him and count him as dead. The fear of persecution drives him to “wilfully” reject Christ and return to Judaism. God says to this young man, “there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins”. A spotless lamb or any other sacrifice will no longer hold off the wrath of God, the young man has seen God’s sacrifice. This young man will die and face judgment and fiery indignation, because he rejects God’s sacrifice.
Rejecting Christ is the only sin in this age that will send a man to hell.
Verses 28-29
In verses 28 and 29 Paul writes, “He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” Under the law, the punishment of sin against the commandments in many cases meant death. All it took was the witness of two or three.
According to Hebrews, God hath in these last days spoken unto us by His son. God has three witnesses (1 John 5:7-8). The “sorer punishment” will be poured out on those who “wilfully” reject the Son of God.
Notice in verse 28 that this person has “trodden under foot” the Son of God. When Moses told the children of Israel to put the blood on the side posts and lintel, he said nothing of putting the blood on the floor. In a sense those people were spared by going into the house through or under the blood. To be saved we must go through or under the blood, but this man has lowered the blood and has “trodden under foot”.
Notice next the phrase “wherewith he was sanctified”. The word “sanctified” means to be set apart in holiness. If the word “sanctified” simply meant salvation, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that just do not line up with scripture. Remember that the idea of Hebrews is that Jesus Christ is better. Some would say that the person sanctified is the same person who has counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing, but look again. Jesus Christ’s blood sanctified himself. The blood set Him apart from bulls, goats, and all other blood either before or after.
Next notice the phrase “despite unto the Spirit of grace.” What this person has done has insulted the spirit of grace. We are saved by grace, and when someone turns from the free offer of salvation to Judaism or any other religion it is a disgrace to the spirit of grace.
Conclusion
In closing we will add evidence that Paul is not talking about the believers backsliding and losing their salvation. In verse 39 Paul says, “But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.” Paul says I’m not talking about us because we have believed to the saving of our soul. These difficult verses when taken in context make more sense and prove once again that the book of Hebrews is about the fact that Jesus Christ is better.
(Forwarded from Ray, Andrew)
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That is all.....
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Carol Swenson
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"These things I have written to you who believe in the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life."(1 John 5:13).
Notice that the Apostle says you now have eternal life. We don't get eternal life after we die... we have it right now, when we believe.
Now, let's follow this idea to its logical conclusion. If we know we have eternal life when we believe in Jesus, how long does eternal life last? Can you have eternal life for a year? A week? A day? If words mean anything at all, then eternal life must be eternal. It must last forever. Eternal life by definition cannot be lost.
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HUNTER
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NICE TOPIC,
ALL I KNOW IS THAT SINNERS HAVE NO PART IN GOD'S KINGDOM,WHEN A BELIEVER SINS, HE/SHE IS REGARDED AS A SINNER BEFORE GOD AND IS NOT QUALIFYING FOR ENTRY INTO GOD'S KINGDOM
CHECK EZEKIEL 33V11-14
THANKS
HUNTER
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Sha'ul
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Hebrews 10:26-27 clearly indicate that we can lose salvation.(And if Charles Stanley truly said that if a believer became an unbeliever that his salvation is still safe, then he was a blasphemer of the word.) How dare any of us to cheapen Messiah's death by making such abomidable statements as once saved always saved, that's one of the biggest false doctrines of satan being taught. Yet Jesus says in many ways, narrow is the road to heaven, the just shall scarcely enter into heaven, not everyone that cries Lord shall enter into to heaven, etc. Jesus would call people who teach this garbage vipers, and your father the devil is a liar looking to deceive many. I know some one is saying, you're not showing the love of Jesus right now. I love you but I'm sick of people twisting God's word around so they can feel good about themself. Matthew 10:34-35 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword." 35 "For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law." 36 "and a man's enemies will be those of his own household." That tells me Jesus looks for those who will actually go by His word and keep His commandments, 1stJohn 2:4 "He who says, I know Him, and does not keep His commandments, IS a LIAR, and the TRUTH is not in him." That IS the final word PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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WildB
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Philippians, Chapter 1, 6: Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
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That is all.....
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barrykind
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i appreciate yor time WildB, but you never answered any scriptures i posted. i dont think im twisting scriptures. They seem plain to me but i will take under advisement what you have stated.
May YaHWeH God bless you Brother.
bondservant
barry
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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WildB
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A child of God can sin unto a early judgmental "physical" death, but he cannot un-seal what God has sealed... period! Once you are SEALED with the SPIRIT you are SEALED UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION!
Please learn how to rightfully divide the Word..
Your mixing and matching of text is opinion driven and I personally won't waste my time trying to guide you out of that swamp you are trying to bring the other unlearned into.
As for me and my house we will continue to have faith in the promises of God.
And God promised that HE WILL SEAL YOU UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.
No amount of your text twisting will change that.
The JUST shall live by FAITH.
Faith in what?
FAITH in the Promises of GOD>
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That is all.....
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barrykind
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You stated and then ask:
quote:
WOW!
So Please do tell the baseball fans where Paul instructs, teaches, admonishes, a CHILD OF GOD how, when and where to UN SEAL what GOD HAS SEALED!
You and the rest that hold this opinion are GREATLY MISLEAD!
Your mix and match of scrip is a very great sadness.
Please EXPLAIN, in your sillyness what PAUL is teaching!
Ephesians, Chapter 1, 13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians, Chapter 4, 30: And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Once Sealed Always Sealed until GOD REDEEMS is what it reads to me by the POWER and GRACE of our LORD.
PLEASE STOP BUMPING THIS POST TO THE TOP!
You are wrong with your interpretation.
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That is all.....
As far as instruction on what Paul is teaching i have given NUMEROUS scripture in response to what Paul is teaching.
i apologize if i come off as silly. It is not my intention to appear silly. This is a matter of grave purpose and of the utmost importance to not only me, but many folks around the world.
As far as "bumping" the subject; i have carefully answered any and all posts as best as i could.
Your above posts ask me to explain scriptures and at the same time ask me not to "bump" the post. i dont know how i can accomadate both sir, but i will answer as best i can.
As far as Eph 1:13 and Eph 4:30
Does not the below scriptures teach us that we can cast off this seal Brother?
25 Wherefore, putting away falsehood, speak ye truth each one with his neighbor: for we are members one of another.
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 neither give place to the devil.
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labor, working with his hands the thing that is good, that he may have whereof to give to him that hath need.
29 Let no corrupt speech proceed out of your mouth, but such as is good for edifying as the need may be, that it may give grace to them that hear.
30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, in whom ye were sealed unto the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and railing, be put away from you, with all malice:
32 and be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving each other, even as God also in Christ forgave you.
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Passage Ephesians 5 :
Ephesians 5
1 Be ye therefore imitators of God, as beloved children;
2 and walk in love, even as Christ also loved you, and gave himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for an odor of a sweet smell.
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as becometh saints;
4 nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, or jesting, which are not befitting: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know of a surety, that no fornicator, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
6 Let no man deceive you with empty words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the sons of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them;
Vs 5 Paul is talking about [and to] the "saved" folks Brother Bill.
vs 6 is stating let "NO MAN" deceive us with "VAIN" words: If a man starts doing those things that the unbelievers are doing he will be
vs 7 "PARTAKERS with them"
Partaking of what vs 6 "THE WRATH OF GOD" Brother
What is that? "The wrath of God"
Brother Bill "wildB" do you actually read the words that i post. Do you not read the scripture verses and pray about this matter?
No sir not in sillyness; but in true depth of heart do i carefully and prayfully consider what i type. i will be held accountable for every word i type and the intent of my heart when i post Sir.
bondservant
barry
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
But if the OSAS postion as its taught (Charles Stanley et, el.); Whoa unto them that teach such, and decieve many ... ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Like i say, im not a spokesman, nor any thing special, nor by any means a leader..........just a guy with 4 children and a wife, want to go to heaven, please the LORD and drag everyone with me to heavean i can...
bondservant Love
barry
(gotta go to work)
WOW!
So Please do tell the baseball fans where Paul instructs, teaches, admonishes, a CHILD OF GOD how, when and where to UN SEAL what GOD HAS SEALED!
You and the rest that hold this opinion are GREATLY MISLEAD!
Your mix and match of scrip is a very great sadness.
Please EXPLAIN, in your sillyness what PAUL is teaching!
Ephesians, Chapter 1, 13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians, Chapter 4, 30: And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Once Sealed Always Sealed until GOD REDEEMS is what it reads to me by the POWER and GRACE of our LORD.
PLEASE STOP BUMPING THIS POST TO THE TOP!
You are wrong with your interpretation.
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That is all.....
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