Christian Message Boards: Once Saved Always Saved ??

This is topic Once Saved Always Saved ?? - Part 1 & 2 of 3 in forum Bible Topics & Study at Christian Message Boards.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007317

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Lets look at these three parts together.. [Smile]

Sent to my by Jim Searcy...

Dear Friends –

Let me say unequivocally, that I believe in eternal security, that we are saved 100% by grace, through faith, unto good works. The only one who ever kept the Law PERFECTLY was Yeshua. However, the royal law of God, those 10 Commandments, is still the only thing the Holy Ghost uses to bring anyone to know their need for the Saviour. I fully believe in the blessed HOPE of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Having said that, I must say that more people who thought they were saved will end up in hell because of the once saved always saved doctrine of devils.

There will be three parts to this series. The first part will be a summary of why this doctrine is so dangerous in these last days of strong delusion. These days are marked by false teachers, false prophets, and it is a time when men will NOT endure sound doctrine. The next part will be just a list of SCRIPTURES that will make for a good Sabbath read, and ask your Trustworthy Teacher to give you wisdom and understanding regarding them. While the list will not be comprehensive it will be an order of magnitude greater than any list the local liar for hire could produce to wrest so as to lead some to believe the once saved always saved doctrine of devils. There is no doubt that you know someone who is in great need to have the truths contained in that Scripture list. Part three will be a summary and hopefully will give you the links for two audio files we hope to have up on the GJiGT Radio by the time you get part three, hopefully on Sunday. Those files will be DODnukeA and DODnukeB for nuking that top doctrine of devils.

Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) is the belief that once you are saved by faith, and your past sins are atoned for by the blood of Messiah, that one can not lose their salvation. This doctrine SELLS VERY WELL and the majority believe this #1 doctrine of devils. Who would not want to believe such a wonderful doctrine? Everyone wants to believe things like this. Very FEW will not believe this #1 doctrine of today's false teachers. It sells so well that 98% of their congregation would leave or vote them out if they told the truth about the fact that it is not true, and the doctrine of devils that will have more used-to-be Christians take a feel good path of deception and strong delusion right into the lake of fire.

If there was no danger of us loosing the promise of eternal life, why would Paul say by inspiration of the Holy Ghost in Phil 2:12 to say, Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Why would the Lord tell us in Rev 3:11, Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. That CROWN is eternal life. He just told us how we attain that CROWN in Rev 2:10 saying, Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. Paul also said in Heb 6:4-6, For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

No way would the Lord, and his Apostles and Prophets say in the KJV Holy Bible, so many times, in so many different ways, to beware of the OSAS doctrine of devils, which can sear the conscience with a hot iron. More almost saved or used-to-be Christians will wind up in hell because of the OSAS doctrine of devils so strongly promoted by the false teachers we have been warned about in these last days of strong delusion.

Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him:
but the just shall live by his FAITH.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but (IF, IF, IF)
if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Ezek 18:21-26 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? When a righteous man
turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Look at those KEY verses 24 & 26 AGAIN and KNOW it is about the
righteous, or saved man, turning, and backsliding - All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

GOD SAID SO - No matter who says othewise.

There is a little word "IF" that for many years now the Spirit of Truth has continued to make that word "IF" become almost like a stop sign in the Authorized Word of God. IF, means there is a CONDITION. IF means that you may NOT suppose, assume, presume, believe it, or receive it, UNLESS you meet the condition. IF means it is ONLY granted upon one meeting the condition. IF means it is NOT provided unless you DO what is required by the particular demand, or command, or stipulation, or condition.

We must learn to live the truth of Deu 11 For IF ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to DO them, to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, and to cleave unto him; ... (IF you meet the conditions Then) - Every place whereon the soles of your feet shall tread shall be yours ... (IF you meet the conditions Then) - There shall no man be able to stand before you: for the LORD your God shall lay the fear of you and the dread of you upon all the land that ye shall tread upon, as he hath said unto you.

Child of God, you need that way of life, that leads to eternal life, in this antichrist war on the saints ,to be an overcomer, and endure to the END of this antichrist war on the saints. The resurrection, the rapture, and the Lord's return, happens at the same time, in the twinkling of an eye, ON THE LAST DAY, AT THE LAST TRUMP, IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION. God said so, and who ever says otherwise is either ignorant or deceived regarding what the Word of God says in context, rightly divided and applied by the Holy Spirit of TRUTH.

It is only through the Spirit of God that we can discern the truth of God Almighty. Paul also tells us to have our faith grow from faith to FAITH. With each step we take we come to more truth, and build the faith to grow in Spirit and truth. We will grow throughout eternity. God will forever teach us about Himself and His way of life. It is a thrilling prospect to look forward to, because our relationship with Him will forever grow.

Pray Psalm 83 daily. Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem where so many
abominations are NOW happening. I encourage you to print out the next
Part 2 LIST of Scriptures. Someone you know needs to consider those
words of God. Many good people have been ensnared by religious
traffickers who prey upon them, because of the lack of knowledge of
these things. And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is
to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God. Only be very strong and of good courage. Stay IN the Word.

From Chittim, Isa 23:1,

Shalom & Simcha,
Jim Searcy

Please bookmark BOTH new GJiGT web sites with the most recent updates:
http://www.moresureword.com
and
http://www.jimsearcy.com

Location of the links to the 10 most recently added audio files on the
GJiGT-Radio library:
http://www.gjigt-radio.com/podcast/podcast.php

SUBSCRIBE and/or UNSUBSCRIBE = http://www.moresureword.com

PLEASE NOTE – The jsearcy2001@yahoo.com email DOES NOT WORK. If you
want to reply to this or send any message for Jim to be able to see please use either
elijah77@logosnet.cy.net or elijah77@gmail.com
Those two emails do not get auto deleted.

Yes, we need help. We are NOT a 501c3.
No Tax Deductions. (Matt 6:1-4)
If the Lord leads you to partake of our grace, You may snail mail
Jim Searcy @ PO Box 52283 - Ugermasogeia 4062 – CYPRUS

Part 2

Dear Friends –

This is the OSAS Scripture list. I cannot convince you or anyone of the truth. Either the Spirit of Truth will convince you or else you will continue to believe what you want to believe. Here are scriptures, which should be sufficient to put the light of the truth of the word of God upon the doctrine of devils which will have more almost or used-to-be Christians fail to make sure their calling to eternal life. Anyone who has received the OSAS false doctrine should ask the Lord by the Spirit of Truth to give the understanding. In all your getting, get understanding. The following list of scriptures is by no means comprehensive. I hope you will save this list of scriptures somewhere, because it is certain someone you know needs to seriously consider what the Lord says in this listing.

Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Ezek 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Ezek 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Ezek 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Ezek 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Ezek 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
Ezek 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
Ezek 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
Ezek 18:28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Ezek 18:29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
Ezek 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
Ezek 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Ezek 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Heb 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward;
Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

Zep 1:6 And them that are turned back from the LORD; and those that have not sought the LORD, nor inquired for him.

Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Deu 9:14 Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they.

Deu 29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.

1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Pet 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
John 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

ALL of Romans Chapter 8
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

2 Pet 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Ezek 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
Ezek 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
Ezek 33:14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
Ezek 33:15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Ezek 33:16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
Ezek 33:17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
Ezek 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
Ezek 33:19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.

Ezek 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Ezek 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.

Ezek 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.

Phil 1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
Phil 1:20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.

Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Phil 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Phil 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Phil 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

1 Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
1 Cor 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1 Cor 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1 Cor 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1 Cor 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1 Cor 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1 Cor 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1 Cor 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1 Cor 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1 Cor 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1 Cor 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

1 Cor 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Exo 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Num 14:12 I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they.

1 Th 3:8 For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord.

I do hope everyone will see that little word IF, and know means there is a condition which God has established. IF should be like a stop sign when we read the word of God. Faith works by Love. And Love is keeping God's commandments. The Lord said it so many times in so many different ways – IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS. God IS God. That is the FIRST Commandment, and unless we get that first commandment straight, all our attempts to be Torah observant or Commandment observant, will be in vain. God IS God, and therefore He establishes the CONDITIONS. God will not violate the sovereignty of the human will. God does not turn us into robots when we come to find His grace evidenced in repentance and get "saved." We need to continue to walk in repentance and faith to make our calling and election SURE.
And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God. Pray for the peace of Jerusalem. Pray Psalm 83 every day. Only be very strong and of good courage. Stay IN the Word.
From Chittim, Isa 23:1,

Shalom & Simcha,
Jim Searcy

Please bookmark BOTH new GJiGT web sites with the most recent updates:
http://www.moresureword.com
and
http://www.jimsearcy.com

Location of the links to the 10 most recently added audio files on the
GJiGT-Radio library:
http://www.gjigt-radio.com/podcast/podcast.php

SUBSCRIBE and/or UNSUBSCRIBE = http://www.moresureword.com

PLEASE NOTE – The jsearcy2001@yahoo.com email DOES NOT WORK. If you
want to reply to this or send any message for Jim to be able to see please use either
elijah77@logosnet.cy.net or elijah77@gmail.com
Those two emails do not get auto deleted.

Part 3 later [Smile]

Let us study toget her.. [Smile]

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

1)The Ten Commandments are part of the Mosaic Covenant, the Law which was fulfilled in Christ Jesus our Lord and nailed to the Cross of Calvary.

5. The ten commandments (tablets) are part of the first covenant that was replaced by the new covenant of Heb 8:13

* Notice that the Ten Commandments were the first abolished covenant: Heb 8:13 "When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. "Now even the first covenant had ... the TABLES OF THE COVENANT." Heb 9:1-4

* 2 Corinthians 3:2-11 The abolished Old Covenant was the 10 commandments:

2: Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3: Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4: And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6: Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7: But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9: For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10: For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11: For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

That which was written on Stone Tablets is DONE AWAY, fulfilled in Christ Jesus our Lord on the Cross of Calvary.

We are no longer under that which was made obsolete through Christ.

2) The Believer is Eternally Secure in Christ.

We who believe in the eternal security of the believer, believe that those who have by faith trusted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are eternally secure and can never lose their salvation. We further
believe it is the privilege of all believers to be assured of their salvation; that
this assurance rests not in themselves, but in the promises of God; that the
Scriptures teach that such as are truly regenerate, being born of the Spirit,
will not utterly fall away and finally perish, but are kept by the power of God
unto the day of salvation. We also believe that the doctrine of eternal
security should lead to a life of love, gratitude and obedience to God.

John 6:39;
39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 10:27-29;
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Philippians 1:6;
6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

I Peter 1:3-5;
3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

I John 2:19;
19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Romans 11:29.
29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Being good enoughbeing free from bad habits and bad behavior, earning enough "points" on the ledger of good behavioris not what brings about a new spiritual birth in a person. Salvation is solely a matter of believing in Jesus. The repentance and change of behavior come later as the Holy Spirit prompts it, and also as Holy Spirit helps a person to accomplish it! It is vitally important for you at this point to come to this understanding: Nothing you do apart from believing in Jesus Christ causes you to be saved. When you believe, the Spirit enters into you and causes your old sin nature to be transformed into a new nature that is in the likeness of God. The transformation of your spirit is a sovereign work of God; you cannot do it on your own, achieve it through your will or behavior, force it to happen by any other means than believing.

If you believe that your salvation came about by anything other than simply believing in what Jesus Christ did for you on the cross, then you believe that your salvation was in some way related to your own will and to your own works. If you believe that your salvation is related to your will and your works, then you will believe that your will and your works can in some way "undo" or negate your salvation.

On the other hand, if you believe that your salvation was based solely on what Jesus did for you and what the Holy Spirit has done in you, then you believe that your salvation was a sovereign work of God. Your part was simply to believe and receive what God provided and what God promised. The person who believes this must therefore conclude that since he did absolutely nothing to transform his old sin nature into a new spiritual nature, he cannot do anything to cause his new spiritual nature to revert to his old nature.

2 Cor. 1:
21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
23 Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth.
24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

2 Cor. 5:
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

Eph. 1:
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Earnest:

Strong's Number: 728 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
ajrrabwvn of Hebrew origin (06162)

Transliterated Word TDNT Entry

Arrhabon 1:475,80
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ar-hrab-ohn'
Noun Masculine
Definition
1. an earnest
a. money which in purchases is given as a pledge or downpayment that the full amount will subsequently be paid
John Gills exposition of 2 Cor. 1:22

John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

2 Corinthians 1:22

Who hath also sealed us?

"Two" things more are here attributed to God; "first", the sealing of his people. The use of seals is various, as to denote property in things, to distinguish one thing from another, to show esteem and affection for persons or things, and for security and protection, and to hide and conceal; all which might be applied to sealing, as expressive of the grace of God to his people, in claiming a property in them, distinguishing them from the rest of the world, setting his affections on them, securing and protecting their persons, and hiding them under the shadow of his wings: but sometimes a seal is used to certify, make sure, or assure the truth of a thing; see (John 3:33) (1 Corinthians 9:3) (Jeremiah 33:10) in which sense the word "sealing" is used here, and intends that assurance which God gives his people of their interest in his love, and the covenant of grace; of their election of God, and redemption by Christ; of their interest in Christ, and union with him; of their justification by him, and adoption through him; of the truth of grace in their hearts, their perseverance in it, and sure and certain enjoyment of eternal glory. The persons thus sealed are not carnal and unconverted persons, only believers in Christ, and these, after they commence such; the seal by which they are sealed, is not any of the ordinances, as circumcision under the Old Testament, or baptism, or the Lord's supper under the New; for these are no seals, nor are they ever so called; but the Spirit of God himself, as the Holy Spirit of promise; for the same who, in the next clause, is called the earnest, is the seal; see (Ephesians 1:13) .

"Secondly", the giving of the earnest of the Spirit:
and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts:
by "the Spirit" is meant, not the gifts and graces of the Spirit merely, but the Spirit of God and Christ himself; who was concerned in the creation of the world, in inditing the Scriptures, in forming and filling the human nature of Christ, and in his resurrection from the dead; he himself is given as an "earnest": the word (arrabwn) , here used, and in (2 Corinthians 5:5) (Ephesians 1:14) is the Hebrew word (Nwbre) , and comes from (bre) , which signifies "to become a surety, to give a pledge"; and is used for a pledge in covenants and bargains, both in Scripture, see (Genesis 38:17,18,20) , and in Jewish writings F4; which is given as an earnest, and in part of what it is a pledge of, and is never returned: the Spirit of God is an earnest or pledge of the heavenly inheritance, which is not only prepared for us, and promised to us, and Christ is in the possession of in our nature, in our room and stead, and as our representative; but the Spirit of God also is sent down "into our hearts" as a pledge of it; where he dwells as in his temple, supplies us with all grace, witnesses to us our sonship, and assures us of the heavenly glory: and as such he is "given"; and an unmerited free grace gift he is; for him to be given in this manner, and for such a purpose, is a wonderful display of the love of the Father, and of the Son, and is a surprising instance of his grace and condescension of the Spirit, and for which we should be abundantly thankful.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Believer has the absolute irrevocable guarantee from God of eternal redemption through the very indwelling presence of God the Holy Spirit. It is our seal that we ARE His for eternity.

Surety:

2 a : a formal engagement (as a pledge) given for the fulfillment of an undertaking : GUARANTEE b : a basis of confidence or security

Main Entry: 3earnest
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English ernes, ernest, from Anglo-French arres, erres, plural of erre earnest, from Latin arra, short for arrabo, from Greek arrhabOn, of Semitic origin; akin to Hebrew 'ErAbhOn pledge
1 : something of value given by a buyer to a seller to bind a bargain
2 : a token of what is to come : PLEDGE

It is within the heart of the Believer that the Holy Spirit produces spiritual fruit, and this fruit is evidence of the sealing of the Believer which has taken place.

A fruit of the Spirit is faith, and it is this faith by which we are saved.

Ephesians 2:
8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Galations 5:
22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" is saved, those who are saved, our Lord has declared that NONE can pluck them out of the Father's Hand. Those who preach a salvation dependent upon our matinance deny the power of God to Draw us, Seal us, Stablish us, to Maintain us.

1 John 2:
19: They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

3) The believer will have crowns which they will lay before the Throne, but the crowns are rewards, NOT salvation.

The "Bema seat" (or judgment seat) was an elevated seat, located in Corinth. At this seat in the square, Roman magistrates would sit and administer justice. Athletes may also have appeared here and received rewards for having distinguished themselves.

If a person is unsaved and dies in their sin, they will be judged at the "great white throne judgment" following the Millennium. If a person is a born-again believer in Jesus, they will be judged at the "judgment seat of Christ." Salvation is not an issue at this judgment. Their sins have already been forgiven. A person might then ask, how will we be judged? and for what will we be judged?

At this judgment, we must give an account of our life and what we did or did not do for the Lord. The believer's service to God will be reviewed and rewarded. For his lack of service or doing certain things, he will suffer loss. We will be held responsible for the things we did in our body. Every hidden thing will be made known. Every secret thing we said will be proclaimed; nothing will be hid. All believers must appear before this judgment seat.

2 Cor. 5:
10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Romans 14:
10: But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11: For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12: So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Some people will receive crowns in heaven as a special kind of reward for their sacrificial living while on earth.

The twenty-four elders seated around God's throne wear golden crowns and white garments (Revelation 4:4).

While we don't know the identity of these individuals or even exactly what the crowns represent, we do know these people overcame intense difficulties. The Greek word used for "crown" in this passage is stephanos: a victor's crown.

Five different crowns are mentioned in Scripture:

The imperishable crown for those who exhibit disciplined lives (1 Corinthians 9:2527).

The crown of rejoicing for those who lead others to Christ (1 Thessalonians 2:1920, Philippians 4:1).

The crown of righteousness for those who love his appearing (2 Timothy 4:Cool.

The crown of glory for those who faithfully shepherd the flock (1 Peter 5:24).

The crown of life for those who overcome spiritual battles (James 1:12, Revelation 2:10).

The above list is probably more suggestive than it is exhaustive. God may hand out crowns to many other faithful believers and for many other purposes. These crowns won't be awarded so we can show off our earthly accomplishments. Nor will they be for the purpose of making a fashion statement. I believe that these crowns signify different positions and assignments throughout eternity.

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Part 3

Dear Friends –

Here are the audio files with the detailed look at Romans chapter 8 and how much light it puts on this whole subject:
http://www.gjigt-radio.com/podcast/audio/DoDosasNukeA.mp3
http://www.gjigt-radio.com/podcast/audio/DoDosasNukeB.mp3

Even the prodigal son was free to leave the Father. The Father testified that His prodigal son was LOST, that His son was DEAD, until he returned (repented). The way is the way of repentance. It is a very narrow way. Repentance is found when the grace of God gives us the ability to change when we are confronted by the truth. Without that work of the Spirit of Truth we will continue to believe what we want to believe.

Today there are many false doctrines. We are in the midst of strong delusion. This is a sign of the times in which we live. Yeshua, Jesus, told us that false teachers would fill the pulpits and air waves in the last days. Paul said they would heap to themselves, these false teachers, having itching ears, who would tell them what they want to hear. We are in the midst of a famine for hearing the Word of God. Yeshua said it would be as the Days of Noah. Paul said there would be a great "apostacia." Most of the false teachers of pre-trib la la land, call that "apostacia" the rapture. One does not have to know much Greek to see that "apostacia" is more likely apostasy than rapture. We are in the great falling away, the great apostasy, the great departure from the truth, the great departure from THE faith.

Churchianity today has a faith, but the majority have departed from THE Faith, they have left The Way, and they do not KNOW, The Truth. The Truth personified is the REAL Jesus, the REAL Yeshua, whose name is called The Word of God. It is another Jesus, and another faith that is taught by churchianity today.

2 Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2 Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

One of the most damnable of the doctrines of devils, and false teachers, and the deceived and deluded is "Once Saved Always Saved." We are saved by grace through faith. The problem today is that most people have no clear understanding of what sin is, what faith is, or what grace is.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. There is a blessed hope and it is NOT the rapture before the tribulation. We are saved by HOPE. Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? Faith is the substance of that hope. Am I saved? I hope so. There is also a way that I can KNOW along the way. The only way one can KNOW will shock most people regarding the truth of the Word of God, and what all the false teachers try to teach us. The truth and doctrine I proclaim, is the truth of the Kingdom of Heaven being at hand, and the doctrine of justification by faith!

Today, how many even know what sin is? What faith is? What grace is?

What is sin? Sin is a transgression of the law. Yeshua poured out His blood to redeem us from the curse of the law of sin and death, and empower us with His HOLY Spirit to stop sinning. He did NOT pour out His blood to give us a license to sin, and call everyone whom He empowers to stop sinning, a legalist. Legalism, by the way, is a way of self-righteousness by obedience to the traditions and doctrines and laws of MEN. It is NOT legalism to obey the laws of God. That is obedience, that is the proof of faith and love of God. Whenever someone accuses you of being a legalist for keeping God's commandments, I hope you will understand what a great complement they are actually giving you, and just say thank you.

Are you saved? Do you KNOW Yeshua? Do you love Jesus? How do you KNOW? There is only one way us to KNOW according to the Word of God.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my Commandments.

1 John 2:3-4 And hereby WE do KNOW that we KNOW HIM, IF (IF, IF, IF) we KEEP HIS commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

So what is Faith? Faith is belief plus the HOLY Spirit. What is faith? Faith is measured by its determination to DO what God said, just because God said so. How could one claim to have that without a hunger to read the word of God to KNOW what God said. Faith is nothing mystical. Faith is very simple. If you know what God said, and you walk within it. That is Faith. If you know what God said and reject it, and you do what YOU WANT, that is REBELLION. It is just that simple.

Lucifer went into rebellion because of self-righteousness and vanity. He knew what God said. And us men, just like in the garden, think God doesn't really mean that. God does mean EXACTLY what He said. He can NOT lie. He does NOT change. When we set our own values, our own beliefs, doubting the Word of God, and doing what WE WANT, that is rebellion. That is not Faith.

What is Grace? There is a false teaching of grace in the Church all around the world. Grace is simple to understand. Grace is time given while we are living in the body to conform ourself to the Word of God. The Bible says that if we judge ourself, He won't judge us. But if we fail to judge ourself, when the Spirit is in the body, He will judge us. GRACE is God's gift to be able to change when confronted with the truth. Grace is the empowerment by the Spirit of Truth to correctly respond to the truth. The power to conform ourself to the Word of God. THY WILL - NOT MY WILL! But if we don't judge ourself, He will judge us. Today He is the Lamb. But when our Spirit leaves our body, He is the Judge, and GRACE IS OVER! Make no mistake about that!

There is a false theology running all over the Churches that we can continue to rebel and it is OK. That is a LIE right out of the pit of hell. It is nonsense what is being taught today about grace. You give me a gift and I can throw it right back at you. You and I are not robots. Lucifer had the gift of faith and he threw it back in God's face and went into rebellion. We may get the gift of salvation. We may get the gift of saving faith, but like Lucifer we can throw it back in God's face if we walk in rebellion. And we will then end up spending eternity in hell with Lucifer.

IF means there is a condition. IF means that one may NOT suppose, assume, presume, or believe, UNLESS the condition is met. IF means it is ONLY granted upon meeting the condition. IF means it is NOT provided unless you DO what is required by the particular demand or command or stipulation. IF is like a stop sign in the Authorized Word of God. It means something very important. You need to stop and make sure you know the CONDITIONS, the command, the stipulation, the qualification. ALWAYS pay very close attention when you see that little, yet most important, word IF in the Authorized Word of God. Many of your favorite Scriptures and promises of God have that little IF in them. Most overlook the IF. Most will be damned in the strong delusion.

We will be set free from the curse of the law of sin and death IF we walk: 1) Not after the flesh, 2) After the Spirit, 3) IN Messiah Yeshua. Three conditions, 3 qualifications on that IF. It is the law of life IN Messiah Yeshua, walking IN His the perfect law, the Royal Law, of love, life, and liberty, the Everlasting Covenant, those 10 Commandments of Love, Life, and Liberty that makes it possible to meet those 3 conditions.

If your brand of New Covenant does not have the Everlasting Covenant, you need a NEW Covenant that does have the EVERLASTING COVENANT. The Everlasting Covenant is the 10 Commandments. It is impossible to meet the 3 conditions, necessary to be set free from the law of sin and death, without the 10 Commandments.

IF you DO walk in accordance with those 3 conditions you will be set free from the Law of Sin and Death. The 10 Commandments are not the law of sin and death. You must know those 10 Commandments like Yeshua, and DO those 10 Commandments like Yeshua did, to be set free from the law of sin and death. The soul that sinneth it shall die. The wages of sin is death. That is the Law of Sin and Death. That is what you may be set free from IF, IF, IF, you meet the conditions.

And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God. Pray Psalm 83 daily. Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem where so many abominations are NOW happening. Only be very strong and of good courage. Stay IN the Word.

From Chittim Isa 23:1,

Shalom & Simcha,
Jim Searcy

"THIS ENDS parts 1, 2, & 3 from Jim Searcy

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
1)The Ten Commandments are part of the Mosaic Covenant, the Law which was fulfilled in Christ Jesus our Lord and nailed to the Cross of Calvary.

5. The ten commandments (tablets) are part of the first covenant that was replaced by the new covenant of Heb 8:13

* Notice that the Ten Commandments were the first abolished covenant: Heb 8:13 "When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. "Now even the first covenant had ... the TABLES OF THE COVENANT." Heb 9:1-4

* 2 Corinthians 3:2-11 The abolished Old Covenant was the 10 commandments:

2: Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3: Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4: And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6: Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7: But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9: For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10: For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11: For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

That which was written on Stone Tablets is DONE AWAY, fulfilled in Christ Jesus our Lord on the Cross of Calvary.

We are no longer under that which was made obsolete through Christ.

2) The Believer is Eternally Secure in Christ.

We who believe in the eternal security of the believer, believe that those who have by faith trusted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are eternally secure and can never lose their salvation. We further
believe it is the privilege of all believers to be assured of their salvation; that
this assurance rests not in themselves, but in the promises of God; that the
Scriptures teach that such as are truly regenerate, being born of the Spirit,
will not utterly fall away and finally perish, but are kept by the power of God
unto the day of salvation. We also believe that the doctrine of eternal
security should lead to a life of love, gratitude and obedience to God.

John 6:39;
39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 10:27-29;
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Philippians 1:6;
6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

I Peter 1:3-5;
3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

I John 2:19;
19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Romans 11:29.
29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Being good enoughbeing free from bad habits and bad behavior, earning enough "points" on the ledger of good behavioris not what brings about a new spiritual birth in a person. Salvation is solely a matter of believing in Jesus. The repentance and change of behavior come later as the Holy Spirit prompts it, and also as Holy Spirit helps a person to accomplish it! It is vitally important for you at this point to come to this understanding: Nothing you do apart from believing in Jesus Christ causes you to be saved. When you believe, the Spirit enters into you and causes your old sin nature to be transformed into a new nature that is in the likeness of God. The transformation of your spirit is a sovereign work of God; you cannot do it on your own, achieve it through your will or behavior, force it to happen by any other means than believing.

If you believe that your salvation came about by anything other than simply believing in what Jesus Christ did for you on the cross, then you believe that your salvation was in some way related to your own will and to your own works. If you believe that your salvation is related to your will and your works, then you will believe that your will and your works can in some way "undo" or negate your salvation.

On the other hand, if you believe that your salvation was based solely on what Jesus did for you and what the Holy Spirit has done in you, then you believe that your salvation was a sovereign work of God. Your part was simply to believe and receive what God provided and what God promised. The person who believes this must therefore conclude that since he did absolutely nothing to transform his old sin nature into a new spiritual nature, he cannot do anything to cause his new spiritual nature to revert to his old nature.

2 Cor. 1:
21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
23 Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth.
24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

2 Cor. 5:
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

Eph. 1:
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Earnest:

Strong's Number: 728 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
ajrrabwvn of Hebrew origin (06162)

Transliterated Word TDNT Entry

Arrhabon 1:475,80
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ar-hrab-ohn'
Noun Masculine
Definition
1. an earnest
a. money which in purchases is given as a pledge or downpayment that the full amount will subsequently be paid
John Gills exposition of 2 Cor. 1:22

John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

2 Corinthians 1:22

Who hath also sealed us?

"Two" things more are here attributed to God; "first", the sealing of his people. The use of seals is various, as to denote property in things, to distinguish one thing from another, to show esteem and affection for persons or things, and for security and protection, and to hide and conceal; all which might be applied to sealing, as expressive of the grace of God to his people, in claiming a property in them, distinguishing them from the rest of the world, setting his affections on them, securing and protecting their persons, and hiding them under the shadow of his wings: but sometimes a seal is used to certify, make sure, or assure the truth of a thing; see (John 3:33) (1 Corinthians 9:3) (Jeremiah 33:10) in which sense the word "sealing" is used here, and intends that assurance which God gives his people of their interest in his love, and the covenant of grace; of their election of God, and redemption by Christ; of their interest in Christ, and union with him; of their justification by him, and adoption through him; of the truth of grace in their hearts, their perseverance in it, and sure and certain enjoyment of eternal glory. The persons thus sealed are not carnal and unconverted persons, only believers in Christ, and these, after they commence such; the seal by which they are sealed, is not any of the ordinances, as circumcision under the Old Testament, or baptism, or the Lord's supper under the New; for these are no seals, nor are they ever so called; but the Spirit of God himself, as the Holy Spirit of promise; for the same who, in the next clause, is called the earnest, is the seal; see (Ephesians 1:13) .

"Secondly", the giving of the earnest of the Spirit:
and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts:
by "the Spirit" is meant, not the gifts and graces of the Spirit merely, but the Spirit of God and Christ himself; who was concerned in the creation of the world, in inditing the Scriptures, in forming and filling the human nature of Christ, and in his resurrection from the dead; he himself is given as an "earnest": the word (arrabwn) , here used, and in (2 Corinthians 5:5) (Ephesians 1:14) is the Hebrew word (Nwbre) , and comes from (bre) , which signifies "to become a surety, to give a pledge"; and is used for a pledge in covenants and bargains, both in Scripture, see (Genesis 38:17,18,20) , and in Jewish writings F4; which is given as an earnest, and in part of what it is a pledge of, and is never returned: the Spirit of God is an earnest or pledge of the heavenly inheritance, which is not only prepared for us, and promised to us, and Christ is in the possession of in our nature, in our room and stead, and as our representative; but the Spirit of God also is sent down "into our hearts" as a pledge of it; where he dwells as in his temple, supplies us with all grace, witnesses to us our sonship, and assures us of the heavenly glory: and as such he is "given"; and an unmerited free grace gift he is; for him to be given in this manner, and for such a purpose, is a wonderful display of the love of the Father, and of the Son, and is a surprising instance of his grace and condescension of the Spirit, and for which we should be abundantly thankful.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Believer has the absolute irrevocable guarantee from God of eternal redemption through the very indwelling presence of God the Holy Spirit. It is our seal that we ARE His for eternity.

Surety:

2 a : a formal engagement (as a pledge) given for the fulfillment of an undertaking : GUARANTEE b : a basis of confidence or security

Main Entry: 3earnest
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English ernes, ernest, from Anglo-French arres, erres, plural of erre earnest, from Latin arra, short for arrabo, from Greek arrhabOn, of Semitic origin; akin to Hebrew 'ErAbhOn pledge
1 : something of value given by a buyer to a seller to bind a bargain
2 : a token of what is to come : PLEDGE

It is within the heart of the Believer that the Holy Spirit produces spiritual fruit, and this fruit is evidence of the sealing of the Believer which has taken place.

A fruit of the Spirit is faith, and it is this faith by which we are saved.

Ephesians 2:
8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Galations 5:
22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" is saved, those who are saved, our Lord has declared that NONE can pluck them out of the Father's Hand. Those who preach a salvation dependent upon our matinance deny the power of God to Draw us, Seal us, Stablish us, to Maintain us.

1 John 2:
19: They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

3) The believer will have crowns which they will lay before the Throne, but the crowns are rewards, NOT salvation.

The "Bema seat" (or judgment seat) was an elevated seat, located in Corinth. At this seat in the square, Roman magistrates would sit and administer justice. Athletes may also have appeared here and received rewards for having distinguished themselves.

If a person is unsaved and dies in their sin, they will be judged at the "great white throne judgment" following the Millennium. If a person is a born-again believer in Jesus, they will be judged at the "judgment seat of Christ." Salvation is not an issue at this judgment. Their sins have already been forgiven. A person might then ask, how will we be judged? and for what will we be judged?

At this judgment, we must give an account of our life and what we did or did not do for the Lord. The believer's service to God will be reviewed and rewarded. For his lack of service or doing certain things, he will suffer loss. We will be held responsible for the things we did in our body. Every hidden thing will be made known. Every secret thing we said will be proclaimed; nothing will be hid. All believers must appear before this judgment seat.

2 Cor. 5:
10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Romans 14:
10: But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11: For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12: So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Some people will receive crowns in heaven as a special kind of reward for their sacrificial living while on earth.

The twenty-four elders seated around God's throne wear golden crowns and white garments (Revelation 4:4).

While we don't know the identity of these individuals or even exactly what the crowns represent, we do know these people overcame intense difficulties. The Greek word used for "crown" in this passage is stephanos: a victor's crown.

Five different crowns are mentioned in Scripture:

The imperishable crown for those who exhibit disciplined lives (1 Corinthians 9:2527).

The crown of rejoicing for those who lead others to Christ (1 Thessalonians 2:1920, Philippians 4:1).

The crown of righteousness for those who love his appearing (2 Timothy 4:Cool.

The crown of glory for those who faithfully shepherd the flock (1 Peter 5:24).

The crown of life for those who overcome spiritual battles (James 1:12, Revelation 2:10).

The above list is probably more suggestive than it is exhaustive. God may hand out crowns to many other faithful believers and for many other purposes. These crowns won't be awarded so we can show off our earthly accomplishments. Nor will they be for the purpose of making a fashion statement. I believe that these crowns signify different positions and assignments throughout eternity.

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Those who have ears to hear let them hear [Smile]

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

Galations

Paul had led the Galatians to Christ (3:1). They had made a good start in the Christian life (3:3) and were doing well spiritually (5:7). Later some Jewish teachers (called Judaizers) taught the Galations that to be saved one must not only believe in Christ, but must also obey the Mosaic Law, the sign of which is circumcision. In preaching this heresy, they also attacked Paul’s apostleship and gospel. Their false gospel had a detrimental effect on the Galations: it was beginning to hinder their obedience to God (5:7), they were starting to observe some parts of the Law (4:10), and they were considering a complete acceptance of the Law (1:6, 4:9).

Paul seeks to expose the error of the Judaizers’ gospel and their impure motives (6:12,13). His ultimate goal is to prevent the readers from embracing a false gospel and to encourage them to retain their spiritual freedom in Christ (5:1). The apostle does not want his dear converts to be tied up with all the now abolished rules and regulations of the Mosaic Law, which will lead them into legalism.

Galations 3

1
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4
Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9
So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12
And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15
Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18
For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20
Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21
Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The righteous commandments of Christ are far more than the Ten Commandments which were a part of the ordinances nailed to the Cross of Calvary.

Matthew 22:36-40 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" And He said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' "This is the great and foremost commandment. "The second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

Jesus is the complete expression of God's righteousness, not the 10 commandments!

B. Things the 10 commandments lack:

1. Did not condemn: Drunkenness, obscene language, laziness, pride, pre-marital sex, homosexuality, bestiality.
2. Do not forbid brethren taking brethren to court. (1 Cor 6)
3. Does not command: forgiveness, repentance or helping the poor or Baptism or the Lord's supper.
4. The rich young ruler had kept the 10 commandments from his youth up, but Jesus said he lacked something even though he had kept the 10 commandments acceptably: Lk 18:18-23
5. It does not tell us about the kingdom of God or how to enter it.
6. There is no provision for forgiveness of sin therein. Heb 10:4
7. It permitted swearing, but Jesus forbade swearing: Mt 5:32
8. Four essential things lacking in 10 commandments: Acts 15:28-29 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than: these essentials: that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well."
9. Jesus said that the ten commandments do not contain the two greatest moral commandments! Matthew 22:36-40 Where do the ten commandments teach to love your enemies??? Too bad for Sabbatarians: This would have been a great place for Jesus to quote the Sabbath law or at least one of the 10 commandments!

Matthew 22:36-40 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" And He said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' "This is the great and foremost commandment. "The second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." Heb. 8:
6: But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7: For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8: For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10: For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12: For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13: In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Heb. 9:
1: Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
2: For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3: And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4: Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
5: And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

8: The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10: Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11: But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12: Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

5. The ten commandments (tablets) are part of the first covenant that was replaced by the new covenant of Heb 8:13

* Notice that the Ten Commandments were the first abolished covenant: Heb 8:13 "When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. "Now even the first covenant had ... the TABLES OF THE COVENANT." Heb 9:1-4

* 2 Corinthians 3:2-11 The abolished Old Covenant was the 10 commandments:

2: Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3: Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4: And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6: Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7: But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9: For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10: For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11: For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

That which was written on Stone Tablets is DONE AWAY, fulfilled in Christ Jesus our Lord on the Cross of Calvary.

Col. 2:
11: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13: And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14: Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15: And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18: Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19: And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20: Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21: (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22: Which all are to perish with the usingwink after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23: Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

It is so ironic that people want to do away with that which the author and finisher of the Christian Faith said would never end till all be fulfilled!

16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. 17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!

You either have a heart of stone that can not love Yahweh or His Law...

or

You have "Saving Grace" a Heart of flesh that loves Yahweh and His Law and possess the ability to walk in the Spirit and obey the law!

26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

The Mosaic Covenant, the Law of Moses given to Israel for Israel on Sinai WAS fulfilled on Calvary, when it was nailed to the Cross.

We are under a New Testament, a New Covenant, and the Law is obsolete. One does not put new wine in old wine skins.

Col. 2:
11: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13: And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14: Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Galations 3:

23
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Hebrews 4:9 and Colossians 2:16
What does this mean for Christians? The law was only a shadow of what was to come. The reality is found in Christ (Colossians 2:16-17). The old law, with its sacrifices and offerings, was only temporary or a shadow; the sacrifices had to be repeated and still weren't adequate because they couldn't take sins away. But Jesus satisfied the debt for our sins once for all (Hebrews 10:1-16). Because the old law was inadequate for salvation, God planned all along for a new law or covenant. Christ was the fulfillment of that plan. Christ did not eliminate the old law, He made it obsolete (Hebrews 8:1-13)

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

When Yahweh saved you what did He replace your stony heart with?

quote:
Law is obsolete

so now as a Christian, I am free to disregard...

You shall have no other gods before Me.

You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.

You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain,

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

You shall not murder.

You shall not commit adultery.

You shall not steal.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.

what is written on your heart?

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

[Please note the above 3 part discourse was sent to me by Jim Searcy]

{BELOW STUDY OF GALATIONS was sent by another brother if you want his email address let me know..thanks barry}

Galatians, what a misunderstood book!

Often, one of the first things a nominal Christian will say when you tell them the law has not been abolished is: "you need to read the book of Galatians!" In spite of the multitude of scriptures in the "New Testament" which demonstrate we should keep Yahweh's law, many understand Paul's letter to Galatians to state otherwise.

In reality, there is not a single verse in the book of Galatians or anywhere in the scripture that would tell us that the law has been abolished. Rather, much to the contrary! The book of Galatians actually proves that while we are not saved by our observance of the Torah (The Hebrew word translated "Law" all throughout the scriptures), true believers will make a sincere effort to walk in its precepts.

In this study we will go through each of the verses in Galatians chapter 2 through chapter 5, which contain the key verses speaking of Yahweh's Torah/law and its place in our life. It is the words in these chapters that are most frequently understood as "abolishing the law". Thus, we will examine them to see if Paul is really making any claim that the law is now abolished and not to be heeded.

Questions answered on
these study pages are:

Did Paul say that the law is abolished?

Was Paul talking about feast and Sabbath days when he said "you observe days, months, times and years?"

Does the Sinai covenant bring us to bondage?

What does it mean to be "under the law?"

Should believers in Messiah be circumcised?

Did Paul rebuke Peter for trying to get Gentiles to keep the Torah?

Are those who observe the Torah under a curse?

Did the law end when the Messiah came to earth?

Almost all of the Christian world regards Paul's letter to the Galatians as "proof" that we need not concern ourselves with keeping Yahweh's Torah/law. This is a major mistake that must be addressed thoroughly. It is often more difficult for a person to 'unlearn error' than to 'learn truth.' For this reason, the studies into the book of Galatians is longer than most.
If you feel that I'm in error in this study, feel free to contact me. I'm only interested in the truth.

Galatians chapter 2

After his introduction, the first thing Paul mentioned in his letter to the Galatians was:

Galatians 1:6-9 - I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Messiah unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Messiah. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

This topic is the subject matter throughout the book of Galatians. The real question in the book of Galatians isn't whether or not we should keep the Torah. The real question is this: What is the "true good news" that Yahushua wants us to proclaim? Does the true "good news" mean that we receive salvation after we have been circumcised and kept the law? Does the true "good news" proclaim salvation through abolishing the law so that our sins are taken away? Or does the true good news simply proclaim that we can receive forgiveness for transgressing that law if we repent and believe in Yahushua...nothing added?

Let's examine:

Galatians 2:1-2 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

This chapter begins with Paul describing his time in Jerusalem with his fellow laborer in the faith, Barnabas. They had gone to Jerusalem to discuss the matter of what the true "gospel/good news" is really supposed to be. What is needful for a person to receive salvation? The 15th chapter in the book of Acts discusses this visit to Jerusalem in detail:

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

Notice carefully that the reason this trip was necessary was due to certain men from Judea teaching the brethren that they would have no salvation unless they were first circumcised. When they brought this doctrine to the apostles and elders in Jerusalem, Peter/Kepha referred to this kind of theology a "a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear":

Acts 15:5-11 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses." 6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago Elohim chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 "So Elohim, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 "and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 "Now therefore, why do you test Elohim by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 "But we believe that through the grace of the Master Yahushua Messiah we shall be saved in the same manner as they."

Peter/Kepha states that all are "saved" through the grace of Yahushua Messiah. As evidenced by this statement, the question they were discussing is whether or not the Gentiles were saved through the grace of Yahushua the Messiah, or by circumcision and keeping commandments. This was also the original question in Acts 15:1.

Kepha said, "we believe that through the grace of the Master Yahushua the Messiah we shall be saved, even as they." His point was that everyone, Jew or Gentile, is saved by grace, not by keeping the law or by circumcision. Even Jews who had been circumcised and kept the law didn't have salvation until they believed in Yahushua. He also said that to make circumcision or Torah/law observance the requirement for salvation would be to "test Elohim." But how would it "test Elohim?"

The testing would be: "Can Yahweh still bring the Gentiles into His flock while making the (quite painful) painful act of adult circumcision, and/or keeping the Torah/law of Yahweh a prerequisite to being saved?" In truth, there was not a man in all the generations of Israel who had ever kept the Torah, so to make the keeping of the Torah a requirement before salvation was not the true "good news" that Yahushua and the apostles were to be teaching.

So Peter, after detailing the proof that Yahweh had accepted the Gentiles in their uncircumcised state (Cornelius received the Spirit in Acts 10), affirmed that both Jews and Gentiles are saved through the grace of Yahushua the Messiah rather than circumcision or any other act of Torah/law observance. The ultimate decision in Acts 15 by James was not to require circumcision for salvation (Click here for a verse by verse study in Acts 15 for details).

So who were these "certain men from Judea" anyway? To properly understand the book of Galatians and the context of Paul's letter, it is important that we have an good understanding of what kind of people Paul was facing. For this reason we will begin to identify the beliefs and characteristics of these "certain men from Judaea." In this study, we will keeping a running list of notable characteristics of these "certain men" as we go along. Here is what we have so far:

They were from Judea. (Acts 15:1)
They were "sect of the Pharisees" (Acts 15:5)
They claimed to be believers in Yahushua. (Acts 15:5)
They believed that one cannot have salvation unless they are first circumcised and/or keep the Torah. (Acts 15:1)
They were vigorous in their belief to the point that they would argue with Paul and Barnabas over it, and even approach the apostles and elders about it. (Acts 15:1,5)
Continuing in Galatians 2:

Galatians 2:2-3 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain. 3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:

Chronologically, the event Paul is describing (Acts 15) marks the first notice of Titus in scripture. Titus would eventually go on to be Paul's co-laborer and assistant in his ministry with the Corinthians and other places (see letters to the Corinthians & the book of Titus). Titus was among the group that went to Jerusalem and the apostles in Jerusalem did not require him to be circumcised.

Galatians 2:4-5 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Messiah Yahushua, that they might bring us into bondage: 5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

Again, the emphasis is placed on the "truth of the gospel/good news" being proclaimed rather than "another gospel." In verse 4, Paul identifies the "certain men from Judea" as "false brethren". We also see they they like to work in secret. Another attribute about them can be found in Galatians 6:

Galatians 6:12-13 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Messiah. 13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

So these "false brethren" were actually Torah breakers themselves but they were most interested in circumcising Gentiles so that they could go back to their Pharisee friends and brag about it. The focus on the praise of men was amongst the notable characteristics of some Pharisees of that time:

Matthew 23:4-5a For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men:

What Yahushua said about them continued to be true when Paul wrote this letter to the Galatians. They wanted to throw the weight of having the learn & keep the Torah and getting circumcised upon the necks of Gentiles before they would be accepted as having had salvation, and thus accepted into the fellowship and brotherhood of Messiah. This is not Yahushua's yoke at all.

Let's add these elements to the list of notable characteristics:

They were from Judea. (Acts 15:1)
They were "sect of the Pharisees" (Acts 15:5)
They claimed to be believers in Yahushua. (Acts 15:5)
They believed that one cannot have salvation unless they are first circumcised and/or keep the Torah. (Acts 15:1)
They were vigorous in their belief to the point that they would argue with Paul and Barnabas over it, and even approach the apostles and elders about it. (Acts 15:1,5)
They were actually "false brethren" (Gal 2:4)
They liked to sneak into the assemblies of true brethren to convert them to their own "good news" understanding of how to receive salvation. (Gal 2:4)
They didn't even keep the law themselves. (Gal 6:12-13)
They were interested in circumcising the Gentiles so that they could receive glory from men. (Gal 6:12-13)
Their sect had a history of being focused on "man pleasing" and laying heavy burdens on people that they themselves wouldn't do. (Mat. 23:4-5)
So these Pharisees regarded it as their duty to go to the Gentile believers in Yahushua and try to bring them over to "another gospel" which had their own way of receiving salvation. They apparently viewed the true good news as "bad news" for the future of their sect and they wanted to try and pervert the true good news with their doctrines.

With this understanding of what these "false brethren" were all about, let's continue reading Galatians 2:

Galatians 2:6-10 - But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: Elohim accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed [to be somewhat] in conference added nothing to me: 7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as [the gospel] of the circumcision [was] unto Peter; 8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:) 9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. 10 Only [they would] that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

So Paul tells the Galatians that the apostles and elders added nothing to the good news that Paul was proclaiming to the Gentiles. In fact, they had agreed to have Paul and Barnabas go to the Gentiles while they went to the Jews. However, Paul next reports that Peter/Kepha and Barnabas got caught up in a form of hypocrisy:

Galatians 2:11-13 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

Both "dissembled" and "dissimulation" in this context mean "hypocrisy" and are translated "hypocrisy" in most translations. But why was it hypocritical? And why was Paul bold enough to rebuke Kepha/Peter, the man who walked with Yahushua for over 3 years?

They had just had the council in Acts 15 and they had all come to Antioch to deliver the decision to the brethren (Acts 15:30-35). When all together at the council, Kepha/Peter and Barnabas both stood with Paul and agreed with the good news they had been proclaiming. So for both of them to withdraw from keeping company with the Gentiles was quite hypocritical. They were standing with the truth that Gentiles were to be accepted into the brotherhood and having salvation in Acts 15, but in practice they were withdrawing and separating themselves from them out out of concern for what those of "the circumcision" might say or do.

Peter was especially at fault because he had walked with Yahushua for over 3 years and was chosen by Yahweh to first bring to good news to the Gentiles (Acts 10). At that time he was willing to fellowship with the Gentiles and defended it in Acts 11. So here was a situation where some very important leaders are sinning and causing confusion among the Gentiles by their actions, which was contrary to the decision that was made beforehand. So Paul asks:

Galatians 2:14-15 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel...

(Again we see that the primary issue here is "what is the true gospel [good news]?" Paul rebuked Kepha/Peter for not walking uprightly according to the truth of the good news.)

Galatians 2:14-15 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before [them] all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 15 We [who are] Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

Now there are some who like to interpret this as Paul in essence saying "If you are a Jew and have rightly abandoned the law (living like a Gentile), why do you compel the Gentiles to keep the law like a Jew by only eating with the Jews?" Due to this interpretation, it is commonly understood that this is a passage that supports the doctrine of the law being abolished. But verse 15 exposes the fallacy of this interpretation when Paul contrasts the Jews with Gentiles and identifies the Gentiles as being sinners.

So while many think that Paul's statement of Peter "living after the manner of Gentiles" was a positive one, it is actually a negative one because in verse 15 Paul says we are not "sinners of the Gentiles!" In other words Paul was saying, "Peter, how are you ever going to bring the Gentiles (sinners) into living righteous life when you are acting sinner yourself?" This was a very convicting statement to Peter that exposed his hypocrisy.

So rather than Paul's rebuke being proof that a Gentile should not keep the Torah, it was simply a rebuke that Peter himself was sinning (transgressing the law 1John 3:4) when he chose to fear man over Yahweh, pretend he was going along with a false gospel, and play the hypocrite.

This interpretation is further evidenced when we look into one of the alternative readings in older Greek manuscripts. Consider the comparison here:

The KJV reads: "why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?"

The Nestle-Aland Greek text (based on older manuscripts) reads: "How can you compel the Gentiles to live as do the Jews."

So the question wasn't "Why are you over there trying to get Gentiles (Torah breakers) to live like Jews (Torah keepers)? Don't you know the law is abolished?" The real question was "How can you ever compel the Gentiles to keep the Torah (like Jews are supposed to) if you are a sinning yourself?" Both Greek texts are compatible with the latter understanding, but the Nestle-Aland text would contradict the common Christian interpretation of these verses.

The True Good News Explained

Let's now look further into these verses to hear a declaration of the true good news, something Kepha/Peter was failing to be straightforward about:

Galatians 2:15-16 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Yahushua Messiah, even we have believed in Yahushua Messiah, that we might be justified by the faith of Messiah, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

In verse 15, notice that the words "who are" are in italics in the KJV. When a word is italicized in the KJV, it is to alert the reader that those words are not found in the original text. Commas are also not found in the Greek or Hebrew language. Therefore, what it should read is, "We, Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, know (Greek. perfect tense) that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Yahushua". This solidifies the understanding that Paul is stating that righteous Jews, who know the truth, ought to know what is right and proclaim the right way to the Gentiles. Therefore he was saying that "WE (Paul, Barnabas, Kepha and all of them), Jews by nature" know very well that we are not justified (made righteous) by works of the law, but by faith in Yahushua.

The word translated "Justified" in verse 15 (Grk. #1344) simply means to be "declared righteous."

It is a simple but important truth that none of us are able to be made righteous through the law of Yahweh. The law of Yahweh simply tells us what is right and wrong. It will not declare any of us to be righteous. To the contrary, it will declare that we have been unrighteous! None of us will be able to stand before Yahweh on the day of judgment and say, "From birth until death, I kept Your law!" For this reason, we are condemned unless we can somehow be declared righteous even though we were not. We need a Savior. We need have Yahushua's righteousness applied to us in order for us to have salvation. Once we are clothed with His righteousness by faith, we have all the righteousness we need to be saved.

When Kepha/Peter refused to eat with the Gentiles, a people who were formerly idol worshipers and were still learning about the Torah, he was suggesting that they had not yet received salvation and were unworthy to sit with him at the table. By his example he was suggesting that he agreed with those "of the circumcision" that the Gentiles needed to be circumcised and keep the Torah in order to be accepted by Yahweh and accepted into the family of believers. But in Yahushua, all we need to do is repent (turn away from sin and toward righteousness) and Yahweh will purify our hearts by faith, giving us the grace to learn His commandments--at a pace that we can bear-- without fear of condemnation.

Consider the differences in the two "gospels:"

Good News of 'the Circumcision' The True Good News
Repent and accept Yahushua
THEN

Learn all of the Torah and obey it
THEN

Get circumcised
THEN

YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED AND ARE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS
Repent and accept Yahushua (Acts 2:38)
THEN

YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED AND ARE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS

It was this "good news of the circumcision" that Paul spent a tremendous amount of time battling against. They truly believed that a person was only saved when they became a son of Abraham through circumcision. Why? The reality is that in scripture, there is almost a ring of logic to it. The logic was that since circumcision was the sign of the covenant between Yahweh and Abraham, which stated that He would give Abraham's descendants the land of Canaan, one needed to be circumcised in order to be a son of Abraham and thus--an inheritor of the land. Being an inheritor of the land was needed in order to receive all the promised blessings that came along with that covenant--namely eternal life in that land. But there are number of reasons why this belief was wrong and Paul discusses this in great detail in Galatians chapter 3. We will go over that later.

Meanwhile let's continue we left off in chapter 2:

Galatians 2:17-21 But if, while we seek to be justified by Messiah, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Messiah the minister of sin? Elohim forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

At this point Paul is making a very interesting statement. He discusses a potential situation where a person who sought to be justified by Messiah was instead found to be a sinner. But how could such a situation be possible? Isn't everyone who seeks to be justified by Messiah "declared righteous?"

The answer to that is a flat "NO." Not everyone who seeks to be justified by Messiah is declared righteous. Yahushua said that Himself in Matthew 7:

Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Master, Master, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Master, Master, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The ones Yahushua said He would condemn apparently thought that they were "justified by Messiah" and even claimed to do various miracles as a testimony that Yahushua was with them. But they were found sinners ("Depart from me, ye that work iniquity"). So if one refuses to do the will of the Heavenly Father, they will not be declared righteous. The word translated "iniquity" is Grk. word #458, anomia. This word literally means, "illegality, i.e. violation of law" according to the Strong's Greek Lexicon. The Thayer's Greek Lexicon says it means, "1) the condition of without law 1a) because ignorant of it 1b) because of violating it 2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness."

The truth is that those claim to follow Yahushua but want to continue to live a life of sin (transgressing the Torah) are in big trouble! We need to not be among them!

Therefore, Messiah is not a minister of sin at all. As Paul said, "Elohim forbid!" (Lit. May it not be!)

Galatians 2:17-21 But if, while we seek to be justified by Messiah, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Messiah the minister of sin? Elohim forbid

Here are a couple of other places where Paul said this same phrase:

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? Elohim forbid.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Elohim forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Paul was again saying, "Elohim forbid" decide to continue in sin or even that we make the law void through faith. Rather, we establish the law (Greek word #2476, 'cause it to stand'). He is basically saying the same thing here in Galatians. Messiah is not a minister of sin (transgression of the law).

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

So Paul says if I choose to build again the things which I destroyed (sin), I make myself a transgressor. Read it again:

Galatians 2:17-21 But if, while we seek to be justified by Messiah, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Messiah the minister of sin? Elohim forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

The word translated "transgressor" here (#3848) is found 5 times in the 'New Testament' and every single time it is used in reference to someone disobeying the law of Yahweh given through Moses (Rom. 2:25, 27; Gal. 2:18; Jas. 2:9, 11). But how was sin "destroyed" in us to begin with?

19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto Elohim. 20 I am crucified with Messiah: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Messiah liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of Elohim, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Note that it says we are "dead to the law." Note that it does NOT say the law is dead to us! There is a huge difference. If we are dead to the law then we have fulfilled the requirement that the law demands: our death. The law demands that we die because at some point in our life we have broken that law. When we receive Yahushua, we become "dead to the law" because we are "crucified/impaled with Messiah." But we also "live to Elohim."

What is being said here is that if one chooses to "build again the things which I destroyed" (sin) we make ourselves a transgressor and are rebuilding the sin that was placed upon us before we "died to the law." Yahushua is not a minister of sin. He didn't die for us so that he could destroy our sins only so that we could go back to our former life of transgressing the law. He died for us so that the law's death requirement could be fulfilled in us if we become a part of His body which was put to death on the tree but now "lives to Elohim!" Read the verse again with this understanding in mind and it makes perfect sense:

Galatians 2:17-21 But if, while we seek to be justified by Messiah, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Messiah the minister of sin? Elohim forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto Elohim.

"For" in verse 19 and 20 indicate that the words to follow were the reasons why Yahushua is not a minister of sin. We are not to rebuild the things we destroyed (transgression of the law) and we died to the law so that we could "live to Elohim." It is no longer we who live but it is "Messiah that liveth in" us.

Galatians 2:19-20 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto Elohim. 20 I am crucified with Messiah: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Messiah liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of Elohim, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

This being the case:

1 John 2:4-6 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of Elohim perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

If "Messiah liveth/abideth in us" then we will walk as He walked. How did He walk? He kept the Torah to absolute perfection. Because He kept the Torah to absolute perfection, He is the righteous one. His righteousness is what saves us when it is no longer we who live but Messiah who lives in us. Yahushua is not an minister of sin, He is a minister of deliverance from sin by saving us from death and living out the righteous commandments IN US that He kept while on the earth. Our obedience to the Torah/law of Yahweh is the evidence that Yahushua lives in us.

This is not to say that Yahushua demands that we instantly walk in perfection. He only requires that we turn away from sin, truly (from the heart) seeking to keep Yahweh's commandments as we learn them at a pace that HE decides, not man. Ultimately our righteousness comes from Yahushua the Messiah who gave His life for us.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of Elohim: for if righteousness come by the law, then Messiah is dead in vain.

If our righteousness (and thus, our salvation) were to come from Torah keeping, we could have been declared righteous without Messiah and He died for nothing. The "good news of the circumcision" taught that believers in Yahushua are not saved until they learn and obey the Torah, then get circumcised. But the true "good news" is that we are all saved the moment we choose to repent and have faith in Yahushua. And what good news that is! Our hearts are purified by faith the moment we repent and believe. It is just as Kepha/Peter said in Acts 2:38:

Acts 2:38-39 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Yahushua Messiah for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as Yahweh our Elohim shall call.

We repent, and are baptized in Yahushua's name to represent the death of the old man and Yahushua living in us. The Spirit of Yahweh then dwells with in us, guiding us to all truth, guiding us day by day to higher levels of obedience, just as the prophet Ezekiel predicted this indwelling of His Spirit would do:

Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Those who promoted the "gospel of the circumcision" believed circumcision and Torah obedience had to come first, and that's why they were shocked when the Spirit fell upon uncircumcised men:

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Still, there was a tendency for a circumcised person who is learned in the Torah to treat those who just came to Messiah differently, as if they had no salvation yet. This is not the true "good news" and that is why this letter to Galatians was written.

The "good news" isn't that we are forgiven and now are free to disobey Yahweh's law now. That's not good news at all.

The "good news" isn't that we achieve salvation and forgiveness through Yahushua after we get circumcised and keep the law.

The good news is that Yahweh receives us and is willing to save us the very moment we turn our hearts toward learning and following His ways of truth in the Torah and the rest of His word, receiving Yahushua the Messiah as our righteousness for when we failed to be obedient toward it. The moment we decide to do that, we are received into the body of Messiah and are now sons and daughters of Elohim, children of Israel, through Yahushua the Son of the living Elohim, who, by the Spirit of Yahweh, dwells within us.

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

This is a deep study, and must be prayerfully considered.

Its not light reading, and is one of grave importance. OSAS (Once saved always saved) along with [FALSE] {ETERNAL SECURITY} is to me the most evil of false doctrines in the "churchianity" world today.

Father help us to learn the truth, and i do not expose this to say "I" know everything or that i'm some great Prophet, i'm noone, just love you and seeking the truth like other honest brothers and sisters.
Help us come to the uncomprimising TRUTH in love
barry..unworthy bondservant.

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Drew (and other Brothers and sisters) most honered sir, and Brother please consider the above and below explinations of Galations 2, 3, 4, 5.

Galatians chapter 3

This study is a continuation of the study on chapter 2 of the book of Galatians. If you have not read the study chapter 2, please read it before reading this study. Otherwise, the points made here may not make any sense to you.

The words in Galatians 3 were written to explain, from the Old Testament scriptures, why circumcision and Torah keeping are not prerequisites to receiving salvation. Paul demonstrates very clearly why we receive salvation through Yahushua the Messiah and why all Gentiles are sons of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob through Him.

Let's begin by quoting the end of chapter 2 to get a context of the first verses in chapter 3.

Galatians 2:20 - I am crucified with Messiah: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Messiah liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of Elohim, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of Elohim: for if righteousness come by the law, then Messiah is dead in vain.

Looking at the context from which Paul was speaking, Paul is facing those who are presenting "another good news/gospel," the gospel of circumcision. The Gentiles were not accepted by those who were "of the circumcision" because they believed that even though the Gentiles received Yahushua, that was not good enough. They believed that the Gentiles were not sons of Abraham and they were not saved until they were first circumcised and kept the Torah. This unscriptural method of receiving salvation was a threat to Yahushua Himself. It was so dangerous that Paul said in the beginning of his letter:

Galatians 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

For if we choose to proclaim the good news, the message we proclaim must be true. Otherwise, we are building a foundation on falsehood. Yahushua is the way, the truth and the life. The "good news of the circumcision" was a threat to being able to reach the rest of the world with salvation.

All throughout the scriptures, including the 'Old Testament', it is always the hearts of men that Yahweh is most concerned about. Suppose there was a Gentile that lived 200 years before Messiah who came to the conviction that Yahweh was the true Elohim and he repented of his ways. Then, as he learned more about Yahweh's commandments he began to make a sincere effort walk in them. This being the case, at what point would such a man be received by Yahweh? Would it be after he observed 5 commandments? Or would it be after he observed 10? Or might it be the observance of 613 commandments were necessary for him to achieve salvation? The truth is Yahweh knows the hearts of all men and can meet them where they are. This has always been true:

Ezekiel 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.

So the "good news of the circumcision" was not based on a correct understanding of how Yahweh deals with mankind. It wasn't true in Paul's day and it was never true at any point in history. Yahweh sees the hearts of all men. It was prideful men who wanted to have their own little 'club' that turned the good news of Yahushua into some kind of works based salvation with circumcision being the 'hazing act' in order to be accepted into the club. This was a perversion of what Yahweh intended His plan of salvation to be and what He intended circumcision to be.

For review let's examine again the characteristics of those who were proclaiming this "good news of the circumcision":

They were from Judea. (Acts 15:1)
They were "sect of the Pharisees" (Acts 15:5)
They claimed to be believers in Yahushua. (Acts 15:5)
They believed that one cannot have salvation unless they are first circumcised and/or keep the Torah. (Acts 15:1)
They were vigorous in their belief to the point that they would argue with Paul and Barnabas over it, and even approach the apostles and elders about it. (Acts 15:1,5)
They were actually "false brethren" (Gal 2:4)
They liked to sneak into the assemblies of true brethren to convert them to their own "good news" understanding of how to receive salvation. (Gal 2:4)
They didn't even keep the law themselves. (Gal 6:12-13)
They were interested in circumcising the Gentiles so that they could receive glory from men. (Gal 6:12-13)
Their sect had a history of being focused on "man pleasing" and laying heavy burdens on people that they themselves wouldn't do. (Mat. 23:4-5)
With this in mind, let's continue to Galatians 3:

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Yahushua the Messiah hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
The Gentiles who turned their lives over to Yahweh didn't receive the Holy Spirit because they had been keeping the law. They received the Holy Spirit because they repented and accepted Yahushua the Messiah. In response to the false 'good news of the circumcision', Paul was reminding them that the Spirit was given as evidence of their immediate salvation. Kepha (Peter) also had been shown this truth:

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Yahweh's plan of instant recognition of the Gentiles' salvation was something very difficult for many Jews to accept. It was so ingrained in their culture that a Gentile couldn't just come to Yahweh and be accepted the same as a natural Jew without going through a long process. But Yahweh showed that He accepted them when He poured out His Spirit on the Gentiles the moment they believed, thereby demonstrating that their sins were forgiven by faith, not by circumcision and Torah/law keeping. So Paul pointed out that they received the Spirit by the hearing of faith, not because they had kept the Torah (they hadn't).
Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

In this verse, it is believed by some that anyone attempting to be obedient to Yahweh's law is seeking to "be made perfect by the flesh." But would doing something like honoring your parents be an attempt to "be made perfect by the flesh"? Certainly not, but submitting to the 'good news of the circumcision' certainly would be.
Nevertheless, let's examine the Greek word translated "made perfect" in this verse. It is Strong's word #2005 and it means "to fulfill further (or completely), i.e. execute; by implication, to terminate, undergo" or in the Thayer's Greek Lexicon, "to bring to an end, accomplish, perfect, execute, complete." Young's Literal translation reads:

Galatians 3:3 so thoughtless are ye! having begun in the Spirit, now in the flesh do ye end?

Since the Gentiles had already received the Holy Spirit as evidence of their salvation, it was senseless for them to convert to the good news of 'the circumcision' which would have actually resulted in their condemnation rather than salvation. For if we require Torah obedience as a prerequisite to salvation, none of us would be found faultless before the throne of Yahweh on the day of judgment. We would be relying on the Adam man (self) and his abilities in the flesh to obey the Torah to achieve salvation rather than trusting in what Yahushua has already done for us. Thus, our end would be "in the flesh" rather than "in the Spirit". Anyone relying on their perfection in the flesh as one of the prerequisites to salvation will find that their own righteousness will not save them in the day of judgment.

The Jews of that time period taught that you were not a child of Abraham and therefore 'not Israel' until you were circumcised. They believed that one couldn't receive Israel's promises unless you 'became Israel' by being circumcised. Overall, they were putting too much of their faith in the fact that they were children of Abraham. But John the Baptist rebuked them for this:

Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that Yahweh is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Thus, there was a tremendous amount of emphasis put on whether or not a person was a son of Abraham--even to the point of someone getting puffed up and believing they didn't need to repent.
Let's continue in Galatians 3:

Galatians 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Further proof that the context of Paul's words on this issue is the question of which "good news" is to be believed and what is necessary for salvation is what Paul says here in verse 4. If the Gentiles had received a false message of salvation from Paul and the other apostles, all their suffering they endured up to that point was in vain because they weren't even saved to begin with. Paul is making this very point when he asks them if they suffered persecution in vain. In verse 5, he also adds further evidence that Yahweh has accepted them by bringing to remembrance the ministry of the Spirit which worked miracles among them even though they were uncircumcised and unlearned in the Torah. Yahweh had purified their hearts by faith just as Kepha said in Acts 15:
Acts 15:8-11 And Elohim, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye Elohim, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Master Yahushua Messiah we shall be saved, even as they.

So we are all saved by grace, not by this "good news of the circumcision" which was in contrast to the true good news. Again for review compare the two side by side:

Good News of 'the Circumcision' The True Good News
Repent and accept Yahushua
THEN

Learn all of the Torah and obey it
THEN

Get circumcised
THEN

YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED AND ARE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS
Repent and accept Yahushua (Acts 2:38)
THEN

YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED AND ARE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS

Vain attempt to be "justified by the law"
"Justification by faith" in Yahushua
Still "Under the law" Humbly "Under grace"

The true Good News is that we receive salvation when we repent and accept Yahushua as our righteousness. Those who lived before Yahushua's day were still saved by faith in Yahweh's promises:

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed Yahweh, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

So even Abraham 'believed' Yahweh and because of that belief he was declared righteous. He believed the promises and his faith in Yahweh was evidenced by his works when he demonstrated a willingness to offer his own son Isaac on the altar to Yahweh:
Hebrews 11:17-19 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19 Accounting that Elohim was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

And Yahushua said:

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

And so Paul demonstrates that even Abraham was saved by faith. Those who are of faith are also considered to be children of Abraham:

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed Yahweh, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

If one has faith like Abraham, one is like Abraham. Therefore they are child of Abraham. Consider what Yahushua said to the Scribes and Pharisees on this same subject:
John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Yahushua saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

So Paul is in total agreement with what Yahushua had taught on this.
Continuing in Galatians:

Galatians 3:8-9 And the scripture, foreseeing that Yahweh would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

In keeping with the theme of understanding the true "Good News," Paul begins to explain how the true "Good News" was preached all the way back in the 12th and 22nd chapter of Genesis.
Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

And again:

Genesis 22:11-14 And the angel of Yahweh called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest Elohim, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. 13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of Yahweh it shall be seen.

Because of this, Yahweh said to Abraham:

Genesis 22:15-18 And the angel of Yahweh called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, 16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith Yahweh, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Because Abraham did not withhold his only son, Yahweh gave him the promises. We read earlier in Galatians 3:8 that the "Good news" was preached to Abraham when he was given this promise. But how was the true "good news" preached in this promise? And does the Torah play a role in the good news at all? That's what Galatians 3 explains in detail, and it is actually quite awesome when fully understood! So let's continue:

Galatians 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Because of a misunderstanding of the book of Galatians, there are a lot of people who believe that anyone attempting to obey Yahweh's commandments are "under a curse." But if this was true, we would be cursed every time we tried to honor our parents. We would be cursed for refraining from adultery or even choosing to worship Yahweh alone. But the truth is that we are no more cursed for doing those things than we would be if we kept the Sabbath. So what does verse 10 actually mean?
We see that he is comparing those "which be of faith" and those which are "of the works of the law". In this is the contrast of the two versions of the "Good news," the 'good news of the circumcision' and the True Good News. The 'good news of the circumcision' says that we do not receive salvation through faith in Yahushua alone, but we receive salvation when learning/keeping the Torah and are circumcised.

As we said earlier, if we require Torah obedience as a prerequisite to salvation, none of us would be found faultless before the throne of Yahweh on the day of judgment. We would be relying on the Adam man (self) and his abilities in the flesh to obey the Torah rather than trusting in what Yahushua has already done for us. Anyone attempting to trust in the Adam man for their righteousness are "of the works of the law" and are under a curse because the Torah itself says "cursed is everyone" who has not done the things which were written in the Torah/law! Since none of us has done them, none of us will receive salvation by them. Anyone attempting to be declared righteous (justified) by them will find themselves condemned.

Sadly though, today many think that we are under a curse if we seek to obey them. But this is not what it says. Paul is quoting from Deuteronomy 27:26 where it says:

Deuteronomy 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Does this scripture say that those who do them are under a curse? Certainly not. It is saying those who DO NOT do them are under a curse! Paul is not saying that we should not do them. Paul is saying that no one should submit to the false 'good news of the circumcision' which actually places a person under a curse by trying to insert the works of the 'Adam man' into Yahweh's plan for salvation. Anyone seeking to be justified (declared righteous) by the law is going to be condemned because they haven't kept the law--thus, they are cursed and not blessed with believing Abraham. So Paul says:
Galatians 3:9-11 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of Yahweh, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

No one is justified by the law because the law doesn't declare us righteous. It declares us to be unrighteous. Therefore, the "just" (one who is declared righteous) must live (have eternal life) by faith that Yahweh has mercy and will forgive our sins. Let's look at the scripture quoted here:

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

One cannot live or be justified by trusting in his own righteousness. This scripture says "his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him." To claim that we have our own righteousness is to be prideful. Here is how the New King James version translates this:
Habakkuk 2:4 (NKJV) "Behold the proud, His soul is not upright in him; But the just shall live by his faith.

So just because a person claims to be "upright" does not mean he is. We cannot be justified before Yahweh by our claims of righteousness because all men have sinned at some point in their life. We are left with no choice but to "live" (have eternal life) by faith! We must come to Yahweh and trust in Him to forgive us of our sins and make us righteous through Yahushua the Messiah if we expect to have any hope whatsoever. Any other claim to righteousness is pure pride! The 'good news of the circumcision' minimized the sufficiency of our righteousness in Yahushua.
Galatians 3:11-12 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of Yahweh, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

This is once again a quote from the law. Let's examine it:
Leviticus 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am Yahweh

If a man has done the law, he will certainly LIVE and have eternal life. This man would be justified by the law. But NO MAN has ever done this except Yahushua the Messiah. Therefore no man can LIVE or have salvation because they kept them. We all must rely on Yahushua! We cannot rely on our own obedience to the law to save us.
Galatians 3:13 The Messiah hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

Is the law a curse? Some would love to quote this verse to you to tell you that. But as we learned earlier, it isn't those who KEEP the law that are under the curse, but those who have BROKEN it. Yahushua redeemed us from the curse that came when we disobeyed the law, For He was cursed for us by being hung on the tree.
Deuteronomy 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: 23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of Elohim;) that thy land be not defiled, which the Yahweh thy Elohim giveth thee for an inheritance.

Yahushua was hanged on a tree, yet He committed no sins. It was for our iniquities and our transgressions that He was put to death, just as the prophets foretold:
Isaiah 53:5-6 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and Yahweh hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

We have committed sins (transgressions of the law, 1 John 3:4) that are worthy of death (the wages of sin IS death, Rom 6:23). Yahushua has redeemed us from this curse by becoming a curse for us when Yahweh laid on Him the iniquity of us all. So for anyone to claim that they have salvation because they have done the law, they cannot be speaking the truth. None of us has done them, so none of us will live (have eternal life) by them. Anyone saying that you aren't saved unless you are first circumcised and keep the law is seeking salvation by their own works and are under a curse. Such a one has not submitted to the truth that Yahushua's righteousness is sufficient to bring a sinner the cleansing he needs to be a child of Abraham:

Galatians 3:13 The Messiah hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Yahushua the Messiah; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

We see this promise fulfilled when we saw how the Gentiles received the Spirit in Acts 10. So now the blessing of Abraham (eternal life in the promised land) would also come to the Gentiles when they receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. The Spirit of Yahweh was poured out on the Gentiles when He purified their hearts by faith in Acts 10 and other scriptures, proving that He had accepted them in their uncircumcised state when they believed in Yahushua. For Jews to refuse fellowship with Gentiles (Galatians 2, Acts 11, 15) until they were circumcised and kept the law was hypocritical, was a misrepresentation of the true good news, and denied the power of Yahushua's blood as being sufficient to cleanse us of all unrighteousness.
Next Paul begins to explain how the good news was preached to Abraham in the Genesis 12 & 22 promises, and how that applies to us today as well:

Galatians 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

Even in covenants of men, no one can take away or add to that covenant. Therefore the same is true of Yahweh's covenants.
Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is the Messiah.

Notice carefully that Paul makes an important point regarding Genesis 22. Yahweh did NOT mean "To seeds" (all descendants of Abraham) but rather "To his SEED" (Yahushua the Messiah). Thus, the promise is made to two people: Abraham and Yahushua. For "He saith not, And to seeds, as of many".
Not everyone is going to inherit the land promised to Abraham. The wicked among the literal children of Israel will not inherit it. The wicked among the Gentiles will not inherit it. Only the righteous will inherit the land. In order for one to be righteous, they need to be a part of the body of Messiah, the "Seed" to whom the promises are made. Thus, Yahweh said to Abraham:

Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

So not only are the promises made to Abraham and to Messiah, but Yahweh also promised a blessing to all the nations and families of the earth (Yes, Gentiles!) through Abraham and through his Seed, the Messiah. That blessing is eternal life in the promised land. Thus, the following promise in Genesis is fulfilled in Him:

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

We know that Yahushua bruised the head of the serpent, but not without a wound Himself. Yahweh chose to bring this Seed (the Messiah) through a son of Abraham, then later narrowed it down to a son of David, then through Mary, the prophetic woman who brought forth the Seed that would destroy the work of the enemy--namely, sin and death.

1 John 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of Elohim was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

Let's continue in Galatians 3:

Galatians 3:16-17 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Messiah. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of Elohim in Messiah, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Now here is where it can get very confusing if we did not understand the previous points and the context in which they were given. The 'good news of the circumcision' sought to involve the necessity of circumcision and Torah/law keeping as a prerequisite to receiving salvation (forgiveness of sin and eternal life in the promised land) and being accepted into full fellowship. But Paul is making the point that there is nothing written later on in the Torah that can disannul the promise given to Abraham and to His seed. If we are in Yahushua, we have everything we need! The additional requirements which the 'good news of the circumcision' sought to involve were attempts to disannul the Abrahamic covenant or add to it. So Paul said:
Galatians 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but Elohim gave it to Abraham by promise.

So if the inheritance (eternal life in the promised land) comes from Yahweh's law then it is no longer a promise but something conditional upon our own perfection. If it were conditional upon our own ability to obey the Torah, none of us would make it. Therefore, we need the promise. It is this promise to Abraham and to his Seed (Yahushua) which is actually the "Good news" that we need. It is that "Good News" that was preached to Abraham:
Galatians 3:8-9 And the scripture, foreseeing that Yahweh would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

We need to be as faithful Abraham who believed the "good news" and we need to be the Seed of Abraham (Messiah) in order to be blessed with the inheritance. It is no longer we who live, it is Yahushua the Seed of Abraham who lives in us. This is the simple plan of salvation that Yahweh first mentioned in Genesis 3:15 right after the first sin was committed, further revealed by Yahweh's promise to Abraham and to his Seed, and even further revealed by the righteousness found in the Torah, Yahweh's promise to David, and the words of the prophets.

So where does the law of Yahweh actually fit in all of this? Paul was glad we asked...

Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Now if we hadn't paid any attention to the previous verses, we might get the impression that the law was just a temporary thing until Yahushua came. But since we have been going over this very carefully, we will understand what is truly meant here in verse 19.
Firstly, notice that it says that the law was added 'because of transgressions.' It needed to be established that Yahweh has a righteous standard that He wants everyone to live by. If Yahweh had not given the Torah/law, there would have been no transgression from which one needed to be redeemed through Yahushua the Messiah:

Romans 4:15b for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Now notice that it says that it was added..."till the seed should come to whom the promise was made." But to whom was the promise made? We know the answer:

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Messiah.

The promise was made to Abraham and to the Messiah Yahushua, his Seed.

But how is it that Seed should come to Abraham and Himself? Oh but this is the beauty of the good news! We ARE the body of the Messiah. It is no longer we who live but Messiah who lives in us. The day will come when Yahushua will return to gather each of us (His body) together with Abraham and at that time we will have no need of the Torah because we will no longer have sin within us.

1 Timothy 1:9-10 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Are there such men on the earth today? Certainly, and sometimes those who are in the body of Messiah fail to cleave to sound doctrine. Therefore, the need for the law of Yahweh to instruct us is still here any time we might fall short of righteousness.

Suppose for a moment you had the responsibility to supervise a room of 30 children for a day. On the first day you supervised them, all of the children were loving, obedient and never needed a bit of correction. In such a condition there would be no need for laws, commandments and ordinances to keep the children from doing wrong.

Now suppose that on the second day you supervised them, there were some major problems where the children were starting to get selfish and were fighting with one another. You would then need to set up "ground rules" (i.e. commandments, ordinances, statutes, laws) for the children to follow so that they would learn to walk in love rather than hate.

The same is true of our Heavenly Father. If we were walking in love, He would have no need to give us commandments, ordinances and laws to keep us from doing wrong things to Him and wrong things to one another. But since we have an inclination to do evil and be selfish, the Torah/law of Yahweh was given so that we would see that we have sinned against Him and against one another. When the day comes that we no longer have the inclination to do evil, we will have no need of the Torah any longer. But as long as there are lawless and disobedient sinners, unholy and profane men, liars, or any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine--the Torah/law is necessary to provide instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of Elohim, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of Elohim may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

With these principles in mind, the correct understanding of Galatians 3:19 comes to light:

Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The simple truth is that the earth was full of disobedient children who needed instruction in righteousness, but in our case also needed redemption from sin. If no law had been given, Yahweh's righteous standard would have been unknown and none of us would have realized that we needed repent and be forgiven for anything. Yahweh had to show everyone what His will is, what His way of Righteousness is so that when Yahushua would come, we would all realize we are sinners.

Continuing in Galatians:

Galatians 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but Elohim is one.

This vagueness of this verse has resulted in much perplexity among various commentators. I'll be humble enough to join them in saying I'm not 100% sure what Paul exactly intended to say here with so few words, but I think it is at least safe to conclude that there is nothing here that has anything to do with the idea that we are free defiantly disobey Yahweh's law now.
Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of Elohim? Elohim forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

If the law was able to give us righteousness and eternal life, it would have been against the promises of Yahweh which (as we discussed) involved the Seed (the Messiah) bringing us the blessing rather than the law. The law itself does not deliver the promise of life, it only points out what our sins actually are so that we will receive the promise of the inheritance by faith in Yahushua:
Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Yahushua Messiah might be given to them that believe.

Were it not for the Torah, we would not have recognized our sin and we would have not sought to receive the promise by faith in Yahushua. So the Torah has an important role in us receiving the promise, but the Torah itself does not give us the promise. The Torah does promise life to those who do the things which were written within it, but none of us have done the things which are written within it! Only Yahushua has done it. Therefore we need to be a part of Him, and we need to abide in Him in order for us to receive the promise. The promise is to Him, and He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.. no man comes to the Father except through Him. Of course, as we discussed in the Galatians 2 study, those who abide in Him will want to walk as He walked...keeping the Torah.
1 John 2:6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

But it is faith and salvation that comes first, not Torah observance. Otherwise, we are ALL condemned. Continuing in Galatians 3:

Galatians 3:23-24 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Messiah, that we might be justified by faith.

Before we believed, the Torah/law kept us under guard as a schoolmaster to teach us that we needed salvation and redemption. It confined us all under sin, kept until the promise by faith in Yahushua would be revealed to us. It's purpose is to bring us to Yahushua so that we can be declared righteous by faith.
If today we chose to put ourselves under the law, we would be condemned. But if we humbly admitted that we needed Yahweh's grace and chose to believe in the promise of justification by faith in Yahushua, we would be a part of His body and He would dwell in us so that we can receive the promise of eternal life.

Galatians 3:25-27 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of Elohim by faith in Messiah Yahushua. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Messiah have put on Messiah.

If we were still under the schoolmaster/law, we would still be looking for the way to get out of the confinement of sin. But we consider ourselves children of Elohim by faith in Yahushua who is a Child of the living Elohim. We were baptized into Messiah and have put on Messiah. It is no longer we who live; it is Messiah who lives in us.

This being the case, we are no longer under the law/tutor which had the intent of bringing us to Yahushua through confining/concluding us all under sin. But of course, this does not mean that we can continue in sin so that grace may abound:

Romans 6:15-16 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? Elohim forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Romans 6:1-6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 Elohim forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Yahushua Messiah were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Messiah was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Paul never taught that being under grace was a license to continue breaking Yahweh's law. This is another perversion, the modern "good news" that is often proclaimed today. Rather, the fact that we are now Body of Messiah should demonstrate that we are to live as He did, walk as He walked and love as He loved. He kept the Torah perfectly, and it is He who now lives in us. Our choice to turn away from Torah breaking and receive Him for our salvation is evidence that He lives in us.

The problem with the Galatians is that they had it backwards. You don't seek obedience to the law through human effort and then receive salvation; you receive salvation through Yahushua's indwelling so that you have the power to walk in obedience!

The 'good news of the circumcision' was a false doctrine that created division within the body of Messiah, with the Gentiles being like second class citizens who needed more than Yahushua's righteousness to be considered worthy of full fellowship.

In Galatians 3, Paul's purpose is to demonstrate quite clearly one principle that exposes the 'good news of the circumcision' as a false doctrine that was never true: Salvation is not of the law, it is of promise. Therefore, we don't need circumcision to be a son of Abraham, we need Yahushua the Messiah, the Seed of Abraham dwelling in us!

Galatians 3:27-29 For as many of you as have been baptized into Messiah have put on Messiah. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Messiah Yahushua. 29 And if ye be Messiah's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

HalleluYah, for in Yahweh's eyes we are all Abraham's Seed through Yahushua. It is through Yahweh's promise to Abraham that this is so. Not through circumcision, not through our own righteousness...only through Yahushua and His Sonship, His righteousness, His indwelling. We are Israelites indeed through Yahushua who dwells in us. Because of this we are no longer strangers, but heirs:

Ephesians 2:8-13 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of Elohim: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Messiah Yahushua unto good works, which Elohim hath before ordained that we should walk in them. 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Messiah, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without Elohim in the world: 13 But now in Messiah Yahushua ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Messiah.

Indeed, many of us in time past were Gentiles in the flesh, aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise. But through the good news of Yahushua the Messiah we are no longer Gentiles, but we are sons of Abraham, made nigh to the covenants of promise, joint heirs according to the promise, being one new man: Yahushua the Messiah living in each one of us.

For this, we have much to be thankful for. Let's allow Him to live in each of us in such a way that others recognize the Torah observant Savior and want the peace and reconciliation with Yahweh that we have received through Him; cleaving to His promises, heeding His word, loving Yahweh with all our hearts, and loving one another as He so loved us. That's what Yahushua is all about, and that's what the Torah is all about. Fellow children of Yisrael, follow His example! Let no one tell you any different.

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Galatians chapter 4 & 5

This study is a continuation of the study on chapter 2 and 3 of the book of Galatians. If you have not read the previous studies which go over chapters 2 and 3, verse by verse, please read them before reading this study. Otherwise, the points made here may not make any sense to you.

We left off in Galatians 3 with a very important conclusion:

Galatians 3:26-29 For ye are all the children of Elohim by faith in Messiah Yahushua. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Messiah have put on Messiah. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Messiah Yahushua. 29 And if ye be Messiah's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The blessing of this is that each of us become children of Elohim, the seed of Abraham by Yahushua the Messiah. All of us are now one in the Messiah Yahushua. It was not circumcision or the 'good news of the circumcision' that made this possible, it was the blood of Yahushua. Continuing in this thought, Paul next says:

Galatians 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be master of all; 2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

During the time period in which Paul was speaking, the common practice was to appoint a caretaker to watch over a child until he was of a certain age. Paul is using this cultural practice as an illustration of the role of Yahweh's law in our lives. Rather than functioning as a means by which we are able to receive Yahweh's promise of eternal life, the law of Yahweh simply shows us what sin is and reveals our own bondage to it.

In the case of the Galatians, it was their idolatry and other pagan practices that was exposed as worthy of condemnation. The Torah/law of Yahweh teaches us that we need our Heavenly Father's mercy upon us if we ever want to hope for eternal life. The way we receive that mercy is through Yahushua's righteousness being placed upon us:

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, Elohim sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Note that Yahushua was under the law even as we were. There are some who believe that the phrase "under the law" is a metaphor for a person committing a sin. But this isn't true because Yahushua was born under the law but did not commit sin. Yahushua was born under the law and kept the law to absolute perfection. For this reason, He is the Righteous One who is able to redeem those who were under the law but condemned as sinners, held in bondage to the elements of the world.

Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, Elohim hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of Elohim through Messiah.

In His love and mercy, Yahweh redeemed us (bought us off the slave market) and caused us to be adopted into His family, making us sons of Elohim. This was made possible because Yahushua died for us. When He died for us and rose again, our Adam man participated with Him in that death and we were made a new creation:

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Messiah: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Messiah liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of Elohim, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

So we were made sons of Elohim rather than mere servants or children who were held under the bondage of sin. Of course, now that we are made free this does not mean that we should continue in sin:

1 Corinthians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify Elohim in your body, and in your spirit, which are Elohim's.

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 Elohim forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

So again, we "live to Elohim" as Paul said in Galatians 2. We don't rebuild again that sin that was destroyed or we'll be making ourselves transgressors again. But apparently the Galatians had a problem with this very thing:

Galatians 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not Elohim, ye did service unto them which by nature are no elohim. 9 But now, after that ye have known Elohim, or rather are known of Elohim, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Many believe that the "days, and months, and times, and years" are in reference to the Sabbath and feast day gatherings that Yahweh commanded in the Torah/law. They claim that any observance of such things are an attempt to "earn our salvation" rather than trusting in the blood of Yahushua to be our cleansing.

Paul is not specific about what "days, and months, and times, and years" he is referring to. A nominal Christian might say that Paul is condemning the observance of any day, month time or year. But even if this were the case, it would actually condemn the nominal Christian because going to church on Sunday would be an observance of a day. And certainly the observance of Christmas and Easter festivals would fall under that as well.

But is Paul speaking of Yahweh's commanded observances of the weekly Sabbath, Passover, Pentecost and other such holy days? If so, Paul is condemning himself because he was a feast keeper:

Acts 18:20 - When they desired him to tarry longer time with them, he consented not; 21 - But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if YAHWEH will. And he sailed from Ephesus.
Paul said that he was looking forward to keeping the feast in Jerusalem. So if we understand the feast days to be the "weak and beggarly elements" that bring us into bondage, this would contradict Paul's own practice. In fact, Paul said:
Acts 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.

So was Paul bringing himself into bondage? Was he observing the very "weak and beggarly elements" that he told the Galatians not to observe? Was Paul a hypocrite? The answer to all of these questions would have to be "yes" if we understood the keeping of these commands in the Torah to be "weak and beggarly."

So what was Paul talking about? Let's read it again more carefully. Remember that the Galatians were formerly idol worshipers:

Galatians 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not Elohim, ye did service unto them which by nature are no elohim.

Having been idol worshipers, there was no feast keeping to "turn ye again" to. They did not formerly keep the feast days and Sabbath.

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known Elohim, or rather are known of Elohim, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

The elements here were the "elements of the world" that they were formerly in bondage to, as he previously said:

Galatians 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Since the Galatians were formerly idol worshipers, the observances that they "turn again" to would be observances that were found in idolatry. They were not formerly a Torah observant people but "did service unto them which by nature are no elohim." It isn't the keeping of the Torah/law that results in bondage. It's transgressing the law that is sin and bondage. Otherwise Yahushua Himself was in bondage because He was born under the law and kept it without fault.

At this point Paul must have been very frustrated because not only were the Galatians looking to "another gospel/good news" for assurance of salvation, but they were also holding onto former things that they were supposed to be turned away from. No wonder he said:

Galatians 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Even more evidence that Paul wasn't condemning them for keeping the feast days and Sabbath was his next statement:

Galatians 4:12 Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all.

Since Paul himself kept the feast, he would be again contradicting himself in saying "be as I am" if the "days/months/times/years" were referring to the feast days. He wants them to be as he is, for he considers himself to be like them--redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, saved by grace through faith--not through any work of men but by the righteousness of Yahushua the Messiah.

Paul next makes the point that their wayward ways are not a personal hurt to him ("ye have not injured me at all"), even though he toiled and labored for them through infirmities:

Galatians 4:13 Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. 14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of Elohim, even as Messiah Yahushua. 15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.

The specific infirmity that Paul speaks of is quite possibly poor eyesight (compare this to Gal 6:11), but it is not certain. What is certain is that he suffered many afflictions while he proclaimed the good news, and the Galatians received the good news with joy and thanksgiving in spite of the afflictions.

Galatians 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

Those who were false teachers among them were apparently speaking against him so he brings to remembrance the blessedness and love they all had for one another, and reminds them that he isn't their enemy--but only wants to bring them the truth. There was a tremendous amount of peer pressure being placed on them from all sides, and they were caving into believing a false way of salvation:

Galatians 4:17 They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them.

This is a somewhat confusing statement in the KJV. It may help to read the New King James in this instance:

Galatians 4:17 They zealously court you, but for no good; yes, they want to exclude you, that you may be zealous for them.

They were being manipulated by others who used exclusion and peer pressure to get them to conform. One example of that is back in chapter 2 when some of the Jews refused to eat at the same table as the Gentiles.

Galatians 4:18 But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you. 19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Messiah be formed in you, 20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.

Zeal is good, but it must be according to truth.

Next Paul begins to use an allegory in order to demonstrate the truth of the good news. Many believe that this allegory proves that we should not be obedient to the law of Yahweh, but once again we will demonstrate this to be a false belief.

First of all, remember what it really means to be "under the law". It means to submit to the 'good news of the circumcision' which is contrasted with the true good news as follows:

Good News of 'the Circumcision' The True Good News
Repent and accept Yahushua
THEN

Learn all of the Torah and obey it
THEN

Get circumcised
THEN

YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED AND ARE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS
Repent and accept Yahushua (Acts 2:38)
THEN

YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED AND ARE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS

Vain attempt to be "justified by the law"
"Justification by faith" in Yahushua
Still "Under the law" Humbly "Under grace"

With this in mind, let's continue to read Galatians 4:

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Once again, Paul appeals to the book of Genesis to demonstrate an eternal truth. Remember that Yahweh promised Abraham he would have a son in his old age even though he never had any children. After this promise was made to Abraham, both Abraham and Sarah thought that the promised son would not literally come through Sarah's womb, but through her handmaid/bondwoman (Hagar) on behalf of Sarah. The son that was born through Hagar was Ishmael.

Ishmael is called one who was 'born after the flesh' because he was brought about in a way that was contrary to Yahweh's promise, being the son of a bondwoman (slave). Yahweh was actually going to fulfill his promise by miraculously allowing Sarah to have a son (Isaac) well past child bearing years. Thus, the promise was going to be fulfilled by a work of Yahweh rather than a work of men. This becomes a perfect illustration of the difference between one trying to receive Yahweh's promise of salvation by a work of Yahweh and another trying to receive Yahweh's promise of salvation by a work of men:

Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

So why is Jerusalem and her children compared to Hagar and her children? Jerusalem as a whole were (like Abraham) attempting to receive the promise through human effort, coming up with their own idea of how Yahweh would fulfill his promises rather than letting Yahweh fulfill it Himself. The inhabitants of Jerusalem were trying to bring about the promises of eternal life through their own works rather than through works of Yahweh through the Messiah, who brings all of us the righteousness we need to have eternal life.

Any effort to use the Sinai covenant as a means of salvation will ultimately fail to deliver a man from the bondage of sin--for none of us have kept the law. None of us will receive the promises of Yahweh through human effort. It takes a work of Yahweh for any of us to have salvation.

Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Those who cleave to the understanding that we receive the promise of eternal life through the work of Yahweh are likened to Isaac, the son of a freewoman. We are the children of Promise because we have become the seed of Abraham through Yahushua the Messiah who lives in us...rather than through our own human effort of circumcision or Torah/law keeping.

Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

The bondwoman was ultimately cast out of Abraham's household because of the persecutions (Genesis 21) and was not allowed to be an heir with the freewoman. For this reason, it is important to submit to the true good news of salvation rather than the false 'good news of the circumcision' which states that we do not receive salvation until we keep the law and get circumcised.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Messiah has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

The yoke of bondage is (as we discussed in previous chapters) the 'good news of the circumcision.' As we discussed, Peter agreed with this in Acts 15:10-11. See the previous chapter discussions for more information.

Circumcision

At this point, Paul begins to make some important statements about circumcision and its role in the true 'good news'. In short, circumcision is not part of the good news of Yahushua in the sense that whether we we can still receive salvation whether we are circumcised or uncircumcised, . Let's continue in Galatians 5:

Galatians 5:2-5 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Messiah will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Messiah, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

One of the most important things to remember when reading the book of Galatians is that he is speaking to a certain group of people. In this case, he is speaking to the Galatians who were about to fall prey to a false 'good news'. As is evidenced by Paul's statements, "You have become estranged from Messiah, you who attempt to be justified by law" and "For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith," the subject matter at hand is whether or not circumcision is a part of the true good news that brings salvation.

Paul was NOT against circumcision if done for the right reasons. Proof of this is found in (once again) Paul's own example and practice:

Acts 16:1-3 Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek: 2 Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium. 3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.

In light of the common interpretation of Galatians 5, Paul was doing the very thing that most people think Paul was telling the Galatians not to do! Was he circumcising Timothy so that "Messiah could profit him nothing" and so that he would become "estranged from Messiah?"

Galatians 5:3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Messiah, you who [attempt] [to] be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Why did Paul tell the Galatians that they would be "fallen from grace," "estranged from Messiah," and "Messiah would profit them nothing" if they were to become circumcised because of Jewish pressures but then circumcise Timothy "because of the Jews?" Was Paul a hypocrite? Certainly not, but he would be if you went along with the common interpretation of Galatians. He was on one hand trying to tell the Gentiles of Galatia to not give into Jewish pressures, but then by most interpreters he gave into Jewish pressures himself in Acts 16:1-3. What is really going on here?

The truth is that Paul was not against circumcision. He was against the false doctrines found in the "good news of the circumcision" which were a perversion of the true "good news" that Yahweh desires to proclaim.

Timothy's father was a Greek. This means that Timothy would not be of Jewish heritage because in scripture a person's lineage follows the fatherly line. Today, Orthodox Jews believe it follows the mother's lineage but it is not certain if this was the practice in the first century. But even as the son of a Gentile, Timothy was raised in the scriptures by his Jewish mother Eunice (2Tim. 1:5, 3:15), was "well reported of by the brethren" according to Acts 16:2, and was ready in his heart to be circumcised.

Now there is no record of Paul ever circumcising anyone other than Timothy. But we see that in Acts 16:3, Paul decided to take it upon himself to circumcise Timothy. Why did Paul want to do the actual act of circumcision here? To prove to the Jews that he was not in any way against circumcising the son of a Gentile if it was done for reasons that would not pervert the good news of Yahushua. He did this right after going to the apostles and elders about the circumcision question in Acts 15. Paul's decision to make sure he was the one to circumcise Timothy would alleviate any concerns that Paul's trip to Jerusalem had any intentions of doing away with circumcision as a whole, even for the son of a Gentile--as it says "for they all knew his father was a Greek."

Let's read the verses in Galatians again:

Galatians 5:2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, the Messiah will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Messiah, you who [attempt] [to] be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

The issue here was our source of "righteousness." Those who held to the 'good news of the circumcision' believed that person had to learn/ obey the Torah and be circumcised before they could be considered righteous, and thus be saved. But the true good news is that one need only repent and believe in Yahushua to be considered righteous, and thus be saved. The former was an attempt to be "justified (declared righteous) by the law." The latter was the humble admission that our own righteousness is inadequate to gain any hope of receiving salvation through it. As a reminder, let's look at our diagram again:

Good News of 'the Circumcision' The True Good News
Repent and accept Yahushua
THEN

Learn all of the Torah and obey it
THEN

Get circumcised
THEN

YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED AND ARE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS
Repent and accept Yahushua (Acts 2:38)
THEN

YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED AND ARE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS

Vain attempt to be "justified by the law"
"Justification by faith" in Yahushua
Still "Under the law" Humbly "Under grace"

If a man was to try to be "justified by the law" by submitting to the 'good news of the circumcision' and getting circumcised, they would be a "debtor to keep the whole law." Why? Because in order for us to be justified (declared righteous) by the law, we would need to keep every single commandment in order to be considered righteous. For whether we fail in one point, or a thousand points, we are still labeled a transgressor. For this reason, any attempt to be justified by the law will utterly fail. This is why the law has no part in justifying us. We need Yahushua for our righteousness/justification. That's why it says that we "wait for the hope of righteousness by faith."

Galatians 5:5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in the Messiah Yahushua neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

So again Paul makes the point that if we are in the Messiah Yahushua, whether we are circumcised or uncircumcised it doesn't amount to anything in regards to whether or not we have righteousness. If we come to Yahushua, we are saved regardless of whether we are circumcised or not. Let's examine those verses once more before moving on:

Galatians 5:2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, the Messiah will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Messiah, you who [attempt] [to] be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in the Messiah Yahushua neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

Again, keep in mind that Paul himself circumcised Timothy. Therefore when it says "the Messiah will profit you nothing" and "every man who becomes circumcised...is a debtor to keep the whole law" and "you have become estranged from Messiah," it does not mean everyone in the entire world who becomes circumcised is condemned.

Paul is writing to the Galatians. Before we think his statements apply to everyone in the entire world, we need to examine the context, examine other scriptures, and examine Paul's own practices to get a full understanding of what was intended. Otherwise we have Paul sending Timothy to the lake of fire by circumcising him "because of the Jews."

Paul is addressing the false 'good news of the circumcision,' so for someone to be circumcised by them was a sign of submission to that false doctrine, a doctrine so dangerous it could cause a man to lose his salvation. Paul himself did circumcise the son of a Gentile to prove he wasn't against circumcision, but he vigorously refuted anyone who taught this 'good news of the circumcision' which was always was a false doctrine.

The truth is that if we are in the Messiah Yahushua, whether we are circumcised or uncircumcised doesn't gain us salvation. To the contrary, if we use it (or any other commanded act) as attempt to replace the work of Messiah, we are putting ourselves under the law and separating ourselves from Yahushua.

We are sons of Abraham through Yahushua the Messiah, not circumcision. In this sense it avails us nothing. But circumcision for the right reasons does fulfill a purpose. Otherwise Timothy endured a very painful ordeal for nothing. He wasn't getting circumcised because he wanted to witness to the Jews, as some say. Timothy was going to be circumcised anyway. Paul was choosing to be the one who actually did the act of circumcising Timothy 'because of the Jews'. He was proving to them that he was not against circumcision if done for the right reasons. What are the right reasons? No, it is not so that you can impress the Jews! He was clearly dead against that!

In the Torah, circumcision was never the first item on Yahweh's list of things He desired. Yahweh didn't give Abraham the covenant of circumcision on the day that he called him. He gave the covenant of circumcision to Abraham after Abraham had walked with Him many years.

This was also how Yahweh dealt with this issue with the children of Israel. The children of Israel were in the wilderness for 40 years and were not circumcising their children but Yahweh said nothing about it until just before they entered the promised land:

Joshua 5:2-7 At that time Yahweh said unto Joshua, Make thee sharp knives, and circumcise again the children of Israel the second time. 3 And Joshua made him sharp knives, and circumcised the children of Israel at the hill of the foreskins. 4 And this is the cause why Joshua did circumcise: All the people that came out of Egypt, that were males, even all the men of war, died in the wilderness by the way, after they came out of Egypt. 5 Now all the people that came out were circumcised: but all the people that were born in the wilderness by the way as they came forth out of Egypt, them they had not circumcised. 6 For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of Yahweh: unto whom Yahweh sware that he would not shew them the land, which Yahweh sware unto their fathers that he would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey. 7 And their children, whom he raised up in their stead, them Joshua circumcised: for they were uncircumcised, because they had not circumcised them by the way.

The trek of the children of Israel going through the wilderness is a picture of our own salvation. It wasn't until just before they entered the promised land that Yahweh said anything about it. Why? Yahweh had some major sin that needed to be dealt with first. Idolatry, fornication, and a lack of faith were the major issues that needed to be dealt with first.

The same is true of Gentiles who are turning to Yahweh. They need to focus on learning Yahweh's commandments and practicing them before they concern themselves with circumcision:

Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

For this reason Paul told the (very carnal) Corinthians who were turning to Yahweh:

1 Corinthians 7:18-19 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of Elohim.

The real focus for one being called was the need to keep Yahweh's commandments. This was in perfect line with the ruling in Acts 15. Gentiles needed to spend their time learning the Torah and this was the reason James made the ruling in Acts 15:

Acts 15:19-21 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to Elohim: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

The expectation that came out of this ruling was that the Gentiles would be learning the Torah when they attended the synagogues every Sabbath. This is why James limited the requirements for new believers to some 'necessary things' which demonstrated their allegiance to Yahweh. The 'pollutions of idols... fornication... things strangled, and .. blood' had to do with idolatrous temple practices.

Now Timothy was not circumcised as a child because his father was a Greek. But he was not raised to be an idol worshiper. His Jewish mother and grandmother raised him in the scriptures:

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Messiah Yahushua.

Because of this, Timothy, who was 'well reported of by the brethren,' was quite ready as an adult to go ahead and get circumcised. Paul's decision to be the one who circumcise him in Acts 16:1-3 was proof that Paul still preached circumcision if done for the right reasons. He did this to prove to the Jews that he was not against circumcision--even if the person is an adult and the son of a Gentile.

As we know, the actual commanded time of circumcision was on the 8th day. For an adult to go through this process is extremely painful. It wasn't the first item on Yahweh's agenda in the Torah and it wasn't in the first century assembly either, per the ruling in Acts 15 and other verses.

Galatians 5:7-11 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. 9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be. 11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.

Further evidence that Paul was not against circumcision is Paul's statement "if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution?" Because Paul still preaches circumcision, and proved that he wasn't against it in Acts 16:1-3, there should be nothing offensive about Yahushua's death on the tree being sufficient to bring salvation. But because some in Judah did not see righteousness by faith, they do stumble:

Romans 9:30-33 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

So the Gentiles were receiving righteousness by faith in Yahushua while many of the Jews were not because they were setting aside the work of Yahushua and trying to gain righteousness by their own works of law keeping. Thus, Yahushua became a stumbling stone and rock of offense to them rather than the only begotten Son of Yahweh who was able to make them righteous.

If Paul did not preach circumcision, there would be a legitimate reason for them to stumble because circumcision is clearly something Yahweh commanded (Genesis 17:12, Lev 12:2-3, Exodus 12:48). But Paul points out: the fact that he did preach circumcision should cause the 'offense of the cross/stake' to 'cease.' The only reason it does not is because some are not seeking righteousness by faith in Yahushua, but by their own works. For this reason, the children of the bondwoman persecute the children of the freewoman--as we read earlier.

Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

But everyone, Jew or Gentile, is able to receive the rebirth of the Spirit if they are willing to let the Adam man die and let Yahushua live in them by the power and wisdom of Elohim:

1 Corinthians 1:22-24 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Messiah crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Messiah the power of Elohim, and the wisdom of Elohim.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Messiah: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Messiah liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of Elohim, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Let's continue in Galatians 5:

Galatians 5:12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

Some have understood this to mean that Paul was hoping that the ones who troubled the Galatians would emasculate themselves. I don't believe that this is necessarily true because being 'cut off' can also be in reference to someone who is cut off from the community of believers. Being cut off from the fellowship of believers is certainly the context of his statement:

Galatians 5:7-10 I have confidence in you through the Master, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be. 11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. 10 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

So Paul's confidence was that they would judge the who were troubling them by cutting them off from fellowship. They needed to be judged because they were perverting the true good news of Yahushua and turning people toward their own 'good news of the circumcision,' a doctrine that was never true at any time in history. New believers in Yahushua have the grace and liberty to learn and apply Yahweh's commandments as His Spirit leads, without having a spiritual gun pointed to their head if they don't immediately whip into shape. But Paul does warn the Galatians that liberty is not to be used as an excuse to walk in sin:

Galatians 5:13-26 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Indeed it is true that all of Yahweh's law is fulfilled when we love our neighbor as ourselves. Knowing this, we should forsake the idea that we don't keep a certain commandment because "Yahushua fulfilled all that." The truth is that Yahushua fulfilled every commandment in the Torah and if He is dwelling in us then we will fulfill them as well! This is what it truly means to "walk in the Spirit."

Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

And again:

Romans 8:5-10 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against Elohim: for it is not subject to the law of Elohim, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please Elohim. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of Elohim dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Messiah, he is none of his. 10 And if Messiah be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

So the carnal minded man is at enmity against Elohim because it is not subjecting itself to the Torah, which teaches us to love Yahweh and love one another. Our liberation in Messiah is never to be used as an excuse to continue transgressing the Torah/law of Yahweh, as is commonly taught today. It is because we have transgressed the Torah/law of Yahweh that Yahushua had to come and die for us in the first place!

Paul now goes on to explain the way one walks in the Spirit:

Galatians 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Notice it says that we will not be under the law if we are led of the Spirit. There are two ways that we can find ourselves 'under the law'. One is by refusing to acknowledge that our righteousness and our salvation comes from Yahushua alone. The other is by refusing to be led by His Spirit which causes us to walk in His statutes, keep His judgments and do them! So Paul warns the Galatians:

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of Elohim.

How is that for a warning! We must walk in the Spirit and never use our liberty as an occasion or excuse to disobey Yahweh.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Messiah's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

So Yahweh's plan was to promise all of us eternal life through Abraham's Seed, Yahushua. First by showing us the path of righteousness which is in His law. And Yahweh, being ever so merciful, gave His only Son to redeem us from the curses that result in our disobedience to Him. The standard of righteousness DOES NOT CHANGE when we accept Yahushua, but our standing before Yahweh does!

It is a total distortion to teach that everyone else in the world is expected to refrain from sin (transgression of the law) and will be condemned for their failure to keep it but those who receive Yahushua are free to purposely transgress the law all day long! This is not Yahweh's 'Good news' and Paul was making that very clear! We need to walk in the Spirit! If we walk in the Spirit, we will be 'subject to the law of Yahweh.'

But we will not misuse the law of Yahweh to make it fulfill a function that it is never able to fulfill: Bring us righteousness and salvation. It is this misuse of the Torah that Paul is addressing in Galatians. Let's not misuse his writings to say something that he never meant to say.

Those who do so are in a lot of trouble:

2 Peter 3:13-17 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Master is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

So let's be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless. Let's not be among the unlearned and unstable who twist his letters to their own destruction. In the end, Yahushua will not be saying "Depart from me, ye commandment keepers!" Rather, as Paul said, those who walk in the flesh (the former ways of sin) will not inherit the kingdom of Yahweh.

Therefore, let's walk in the Spirit...being found by Him without spot and blameless. Not because of our own righteousness, but because of His indwelling. If He dwells in us, then He will cleanse us of the former things and give us the power to walk as He walked, live and He lived, and be where He is! This is the good news!

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his Elohim, and he shall be my son.

Let it be so that we are among the inheritors, ever faithful to trust in His righteousness for our salvation, ever seeking to walk in His Spirit, ever cleaving to the one who is the same yesterday, today and forever. The eternal principles of love as given in the Torah have not changed and they never will. Let's seek to walk in those eternal principles...that we might likewise remain...that His word (Yahushua) would abide in us forever.

May Yahweh bless you and may He have mercy on us all!

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

answer to Colosians:

Brother Drew consider the following...

Colo 2:8 (KJV) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Messiah.

This is what the remaining section of Colossians chapter 2 is all about. This theme remains constant throughout but men have tried to change it to Yahweh's commandments rather than the commandments and traditions of men.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of our Mighty One (Godhead) bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

So we need none other doctrines because we are complete in Yahushua who is the head of all. We are complete in Him. We don't need anything that men might invent.

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Messiah

In Yahushua, we are circumcised in the heart by His blood covering our sins thereby separating us from our sins.

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of Yahweh, who hath raised him from the dead.

We buried the old man and we are now a new creation so we shouldn't be going back to any old traditions and philosophies

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his tree (cross);

When we are forgiven of our sins, those old traditions, doctrines and ordinances of men which are AGAINST us are taken out of the way. They have no power over us any longer if we are in Yahushua. Do these ordinances have power over men who are without Yahushua? Yes they do! They enslave men to sin!

Roma 6:16 (NKJV) Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin [leading] to death, or of obedience [leading] to righteousness? 17 But Yahweh be thanked that [though] you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Colo 1:13 (NKJV) He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed [us] into the kingdom of the Son of His love,

Therefore, the power that these ordinances had over us was nailed to the tree along with our sins for when we are forgiven for our sins, we are also set free from their hold on us. Anyone who has repented and accepted Yahushua after a lifetime of sin can attest to this fact!!
But now the question is asked: "What ordinances of men?" Paul will expand on this in verses 18 and 21 but for now lets go to the next verse..

15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

He overcame and disarmed the spirits of darkness, the evil angels. He triumphed over Satan and all his powers. He Put them to an open shame by triumphing over them in his resurrection and ascension. Now if verse 14 was speaking of Yahweh's commandments then why in the next verse is it talking about disarming Satan? Yahweh is the author of the true commandments. Satan is the author of the Pagan commandments that Paul is speaking of here.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Messiah

Notice that these things ARE a shadow of things to come. Not WERE a shadow but ARE a shadow. We will be keeping these things in Yahweh's kingdom. (See Zech. 14, Isa 66) In this scripture, the words in parentheses are added by the translator. This is because the translator did not understand or had a biased opinion about what the greek text meant. Here is how this should read:

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath
17 which are a shadow of things to come; but the body of Messiah

Of all the modern translations, only a few such as the King James Version translate the word "Body" in verse 17 correctly. The NIV totally butchers this verse.

The word "body" in verse 17 does mean "body". It is Strong's #4983. Look it up and see for yourself.

In the KJV, this Greek word is translated:

"body" 144 times
"bodily" 1 time in 2cor. 10:10
"slave" one time in Rev. 18:3.
In fact, this same Greek word is translated "body" only two verses later! Now, keeping that in mind this verse should read :
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, drink, etc (which are a shadow of things to come) BUT THE BODY OF MESSIAH!

In other words, we should let only the body of the Messiah judge us! Can we as brethren in Messiah judge each other? Certainly!

1Cor 5:11 (NKJV) But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person. 12 For what [have] I [to] [do] with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside Yahweh judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person."

Does a man not pass a judgment on his brother when he sees his brother in sin? Of course! But when this is the case, we must restore this man in gentleness:
Gala 6:1 (NKJV) Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who [are] spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.

Jame 5:19 (NKJV) Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins

Don't let these pagans judge us in these things. This indicates that the Gentiles in Colosse were keeping Yahweh's commandments as they should. Please consult any greek new testament to verify that what I am saying is true! "Body of Messiah"

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body <#4983>by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of Yahweh.

Verse 18 is a mirror of verse 8. This scripture further proves that Paul is not talking about taking away Yahweh's commandments in verse 16 but rather the commandments of men such as worshipping of angels...and here we are talking about the BODY of Messiah again! This is consistent with what we talked about above in verse 17 and why it should be translated "body". A variation of this word ("soma") is "somatikos" (which is Strong's #4985). This word is also translated "bodily" in verse 9 above. Therefore, verses 18 and 19 are a mirror of verses 8 and 9 above. This shows us that the context of what Paul was saying in verse 8 and 9 has not changed. Therefore, these verses are good summary: Stand fast in Yahweh's commandments and shun the commandments and doctrines of men.

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Messiah from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances--

Remember back in verse 14 when we asked, "What ordinances of men?" These are among the ordinances that were blotted out:

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Again, these are the ordinances of men that were blotted out. Taken out of the way. They are all commandments and doctrines of men. Not Yahweh's commandments. To further prove this point, let us look at the Greek words that are translated "ordinances"

In verse 14 the Greek word that is translated "ordinances" is the Greek word "Dogma" which means "ordinances"

In verse 21 the Greek word that is translated "be subject to ordinances" is "Dogmatizo" which means "be subject to ordinances".

The root word (Dogma, Ordinance) remains constant. The only difference is in the phrase.

23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
3:1 If ye then be risen with Messiah, seek those things which are above, where Messiah sitteth on the right hand of Yahweh.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Messiah in Yahweh.

So in conclusion, Paul is saying that we should beware lest any man spoil us through these commandments, philosophies and doctrines of men. For Yahushua took them out of the way and nailed them to the tree thereby forgiving us for accepting them. Because of this we should let no man judge us for keeping Yahweh's commandments unless they are a part of the body of the Messiah. Therefore we should hold fast to the Head of that body, namely Yahushua from whom we are nourished and do not subject ourselves to pagan ordinances. For even though these have an appearance of wisdom, they are of no value. So we should set our minds on things above, not on the things of the world.

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Let him that has ears to hear hear

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

We who believe in the eternal security of the believer, believe that those who have by faith trusted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are eternally secure and can never lose their salvation. We further
believe it is the privilege of all believers to be assured of their salvation; that
this assurance rests not in themselves, but in the promises of God; that the
Scriptures teach that such as are truly regenerate, being born of the Spirit,
will not utterly fall away and finally perish, but are kept by the power of God
unto the day of salvation. We also believe that the doctrine of eternal
security should lead to a life of love, gratitude and obedience to God.

John 6:39;
39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 10:27-29;
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Philippians 1:6;
6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

I Peter 1:3-5;
3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

I John 2:19;
19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Romans 11:29.
29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Being good enoughbeing free from bad habits and bad behavior, earning enough "points" on the ledger of good behavioris not what brings about a new spiritual birth in a person. Salvation is solely a matter of believing in Jesus. The repentance and change of behavior come later as the Holy Spirit prompts it, and also as Holy Spirit helps a person to accomplish it! It is vitally important for you at this point to come to this understanding: Nothing you do apart from believing in Jesus Christ causes you to be saved. When you believe, the Spirit enters into you and causes your old sin nature to be transformed into a new nature that is in the likeness of God. The transformation of your spirit is a sovereign work of God; you cannot do it on your own, achieve it through your will or behavior, force it to happen by any other means than believing.

If you believe that your salvation came about by anything other than simply believing in what Jesus Christ did for you on the cross, then you believe that your salvation was in some way related to your own will and to your own works. If you believe that your salvation is related to your will and your works, then you will believe that your will and your works can in some way "undo" or negate your salvation.

On the other hand, if you believe that your salvation was based solely on what Jesus did for you and what the Holy Spirit has done in you, then you believe that your salvation was a sovereign work of God. Your part was simply to believe and receive what God provided and what God promised. The person who believes this must therefore conclude that since he did absolutely nothing to transform his old sin nature into a new spiritual nature, he cannot do anything to cause his new spiritual nature to revert to his old nature.

2 Cor. 1:
21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
23 Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth.
24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

2 Cor. 5:
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

Eph. 1:
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Earnest:

Strong's Number: 728 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
ajrrabwvn of Hebrew origin (06162)

Transliterated Word TDNT Entry

Arrhabon 1:475,80
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ar-hrab-ohn'
Noun Masculine
Definition
1. an earnest
a. money which in purchases is given as a pledge or downpayment that the full amount will subsequently be paid
John Gills exposition of 2 Cor. 1:22

John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

2 Corinthians 1:22

Who hath also sealed us?

"Two" things more are here attributed to God; "first", the sealing of his people. The use of seals is various, as to denote property in things, to distinguish one thing from another, to show esteem and affection for persons or things, and for security and protection, and to hide and conceal; all which might be applied to sealing, as expressive of the grace of God to his people, in claiming a property in them, distinguishing them from the rest of the world, setting his affections on them, securing and protecting their persons, and hiding them under the shadow of his wings: but sometimes a seal is used to certify, make sure, or assure the truth of a thing; see (John 3:33) (1 Corinthians 9:3) (Jeremiah 33:10) in which sense the word "sealing" is used here, and intends that assurance which God gives his people of their interest in his love, and the covenant of grace; of their election of God, and redemption by Christ; of their interest in Christ, and union with him; of their justification by him, and adoption through him; of the truth of grace in their hearts, their perseverance in it, and sure and certain enjoyment of eternal glory. The persons thus sealed are not carnal and unconverted persons, only believers in Christ, and these, after they commence such; the seal by which they are sealed, is not any of the ordinances, as circumcision under the Old Testament, or baptism, or the Lord's supper under the New; for these are no seals, nor are they ever so called; but the Spirit of God himself, as the Holy Spirit of promise; for the same who, in the next clause, is called the earnest, is the seal; see (Ephesians 1:13) .

"Secondly", the giving of the earnest of the Spirit:
and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts:
by "the Spirit" is meant, not the gifts and graces of the Spirit merely, but the Spirit of God and Christ himself; who was concerned in the creation of the world, in inditing the Scriptures, in forming and filling the human nature of Christ, and in his resurrection from the dead; he himself is given as an "earnest": the word (arrabwn) , here used, and in (2 Corinthians 5:5) (Ephesians 1:14) is the Hebrew word (Nwbre) , and comes from (bre) , which signifies "to become a surety, to give a pledge"; and is used for a pledge in covenants and bargains, both in Scripture, see (Genesis 38:17,18,20) , and in Jewish writings F4; which is given as an earnest, and in part of what it is a pledge of, and is never returned: the Spirit of God is an earnest or pledge of the heavenly inheritance, which is not only prepared for us, and promised to us, and Christ is in the possession of in our nature, in our room and stead, and as our representative; but the Spirit of God also is sent down "into our hearts" as a pledge of it; where he dwells as in his temple, supplies us with all grace, witnesses to us our sonship, and assures us of the heavenly glory: and as such he is "given"; and an unmerited free grace gift he is; for him to be given in this manner, and for such a purpose, is a wonderful display of the love of the Father, and of the Son, and is a surprising instance of his grace and condescension of the Spirit, and for which we should be abundantly thankful.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Believer has the absolute irrevocable guarantee from God of eternal redemption through the very indwelling presence of God the Holy Spirit. It is our seal that we ARE His for eternity.

Surety:

2 a : a formal engagement (as a pledge) given for the fulfillment of an undertaking : GUARANTEE b : a basis of confidence or security

Main Entry: 3earnest
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English ernes, ernest, from Anglo-French arres, erres, plural of erre earnest, from Latin arra, short for arrabo, from Greek arrhabOn, of Semitic origin; akin to Hebrew 'ErAbhOn pledge
1 : something of value given by a buyer to a seller to bind a bargain
2 : a token of what is to come : PLEDGE

It is within the heart of the Believer that the Holy Spirit produces spiritual fruit, and this fruit is evidence of the sealing of the Believer which has taken place.

A fruit of the Spirit is faith, and it is this faith by which we are saved.

Ephesians 2:
8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Galations 5:
22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" is saved, those who are saved, our Lord has declared that NONE can pluck them out of the Father's Hand. Those who preach a salvation dependent upon our matinance deny the power of God to Draw us, Seal us, Stablish us, to Maintain us.

1 John 2:
19: They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
OSAS (Once saved always saved) along with [FALSE] {ETERNAL SECURITY} is to me the most evil of false doctrines in the "churchianity" world today.

Your opinion is not Biblical. Once you are SEALED you cannot get UN-SEALED! PERIOD!

Its so simple its silly that there are those that would actively peruse the sowing of weed seed in Gods garden.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.,
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Did you read all the material listed above?

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

"Here is the patience of the saints;
here are those who keep the commandments of YAHWEH
and the faith of Yahushua." (Revelation 14:12)

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

OSAS is false doctrine that is not supportable from Scripture. Nothing you quoted means that a person can't walk away from Christ after conversion, but many passages show that you can:

John 15:6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. [NIV]

Colossians 1:21-23 [21] Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. [22] But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation--[23] if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. [NIV]

James 5:19-20 [19] My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, [20] remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins

This OSAS is a doctrine most of "churchianity" is teaching today. Charles Stanley is a big proponent of this false doctrine along with tony Evans and many well known preaches, pastors, teachers of today...

Charles Stanley stated: "Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy.

... believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their salvation ....

... a Christian who at no point in his entire life bore any eternal fruit. And yet his salvation is never jeopardized."

That is the doctrine of OSAS, that once you are saved your sins are forgiven past, present and future and it doesn't matter how you live your life from that point on. So my question to you is how can you believe that the best way to check to see if you have salvation is to check your life for fruit and still believe that a 'believer' can have no fruit whatsoever in their life and still be saved?

It is not only Stanley that preaches this false doctrine here are a couple of quotes from Tony Evans too:

"But for the Christian, fruit is not a salvation issue, but a fellowship issue.

Salvation is guaranteed, but not discipleship, because discipleship makes radical demands that some people are not ready to meet. There are Christians who are truly saved but do not continue on the road of discipleship. People in this condition certainly need to check their hearts and their standing before God, but this is not to deny that it is possible for a believer to fail to follow the Lord in discipleship.

But believers who turn away from God can become so hard other people can't win them back, and their lives may end in spiritual ruin as far as their earthly service is concerned- even though they are saved."

Sometimes it's hard to tell the saints from the "ain'ts" because some lost people live exemplary lives, while genuine believers can be capable of some really heinous behavior.

The above quotes show what I mean. This teaching concerns salvation, because if it is wrong then people who think they are saved may well be on their way to eternal punishment.

We need to view our doctrine through the filter of Scripture, not the other way around; viewing Scripture through the filter of our doctrine. One way we will always be right the other way we will always be in danger of being mistaken.

In brief; I believe our salvation is a relationship with God through faith in Jesus Christ. I believe we all stumble at times and sin. I also believe that when we sin the Holy Spirit convicts us and draws us back to a closer walk. If we confess our sin we repair our relationship and everything is okay, but if we refuse to repent and confess and continue to sin our relationship will deteriorate, at some point we grow cold and our relationship is ruined. Paul called this turning from the faith, shipwrecked faith, etc... Paul even said if we don't hold fast then we have believed in vain.

(1 Corinthians 15:2 NIV) By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.(Emphasis added)

(1 Corinthians 6:9-10 NIV) [9] Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders [10] nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.(Emphasis added)

(1 John 2:3-6 NIV) [3] We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. [4] The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [5] But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: [6] Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.(Emphasis added)

I want to first look at a couple of the parables that Jesus told. In Matthew 22 Jesus tells us that the kingdom of heaven is like a king who invites people to the wedding feast of his son. Now my question is who does the man who was at the wedding without wedding cloths represent? He was inside, so he must have been a believer, the non-believers did not bother to come to the wedding. Yet he was cast out into darkness.

In Matthew 13 Jesus tells the parable of the sower. There are two types of soil that I want to look at. The first one is the stony places as the KJV says. Jesus said the seed sprouted quickly but when the sun came out it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. Who is Jesus speaking about? The person He is speaking of accepted the message but did not bother to put down roots.

Next was the seed which fell among thorns. It too sprouted but was choked out by the thorns. Again who is He speaking of? It is people who again accepted the message but who were choked out by the world.

Starting in Matthew 18:23 Jesus again tells us what the kingdom of heaven is like. This is the story of the king who forgives the large debt owed to him by a servant but that same servant refuses to forgive a small debt owed to him by a fellow servant. Jesus says that His Father will treat us this way unless we also forgive our brothers. Now remember He is speaking to and about believers, who as the story shows were already forgiven. So how do you explain that passage? Doesn't it show that if we turn from God and become bitter and unforgiving He will cut us loose? I think it does. That is not to say that we lose our salvation, but by our actions and the hardness of our heart we can give it up.

In Luke 14:20-30 Jesus talks about building and how a person would first count the cost of the project so that he could be sure he was able to finish the work. Now He was talking to people about following Him, so what He was saying is that before someone follows Him they should count the cost and be sure they are able to continue and not fall away. Now why would He address that point if it were impossible for a person to start following Him and yet not finish? In this chapter there are a couple other points that Jesus makes which point to the same thing. He talks about a king making sure he can win a battle before engaging in it. He also talks about us being like salt but if we lose our saltiness (or savour in the KJV) we are worthless and good only for the dung heap. I can't believe He was describing heaven as a dung heap.

Okay, that is enough for the parables and sayings of Jesus, now let me turn to Hebrews. In Hebrews 3:12-19 the author speaks about those whom God has sworn will not enter His rest. And who were they? They were the Israelites whom God brought out of Egypt. The author goes on to warn us, whom he calls 'brothers' (brethren in the KJV) not to allow our hearts to become hardened through sin. He tells us to help each other so that none of us turn away (depart in the KJV) from the living God. Now my question is why tell us that unless it is possible to turn away (depart)?

I am not trying to say that I have all the answers, but I can't accept the doctrine of 'once saved always saved' with all these passages which seem to contradict it. I don't care what version you use to look up the passages they should make you stop and at least think about this doctrine.

I believe that anyone who repents and turns from their sins and allows Jesus to be Lord and Savior of their life is guaranteed a place in heaven. I just can't say that is true no matter what happens later, for example if they decide they no longer even believe there is a God, or the decide to reject Christ and live a pagan lifestyle.

Now the bottom line is this, if anyone is a Christian and wants to remain secure God will help them, there is nothing to worry about, but that does not mean we can go back to living like the world and still expect God to welcome us into His kingdom.

My last question is not a theological one it is a practical one. If I am wrong and once a person is saved it does not matter what they do or how they live, or for that matter whether they even want to be a Christian anymore, they will still get into heaven, what difference does my teaching make? Here is my point if I am saved and you are saved and I live like the world and could care less about God or anything to do with Him, and you on the other hand live a holy life (through Christ) and serve Him, and we both get to heaven... Well we both got to heaven, no problem. My telling people that they should continue in the faith won't make a bit of difference.

But now think of this, what if you are wrong? What if those who after true conversion later turn away from the faith, are lost for eternity if they die in that state? Under your teaching of it doesn't matter they will happily walk down the road to hell and be surprised when they don't get into heaven. Now if they happen to read this study or one like it and believe it and repent, their soul would be saved. So again I ask what is the danger of my teaching (or better put my questions) compared to the possible danger of your 'once saved always saved' teaching?

In answer to some of your above scriptures Brother Drew and similar scriptures i offer the following:

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." [NIV]

I don't see the difficulty in this passage. People assume that eternal life can't be eternal if you can have it and then not have it, but they miss the point of what eternal life is. It is not a thing, it is a person:

1 John 1:2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. [NIV]

1 John 5:11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. [NIV]

1 John 5:20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true--even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. [NIV]

So the question isn't whether eternal life is eternal if you can have it one moment and then not have it, the question is can you have Jesus and then not have Him in your heart? He remains eternal life whether you have Him or not, so I see no contradiction. Now to whether you can go back to not having Him:

James 4:4 You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. [NIV]

I have stated this many times before, but a sinner cannot BECOME an enemy of God because they are already enemies of God. We were all enemies of God from birth, we are only reconciled to the Father by faith in Jesus Christ. So the only person who can BECOME an enemy of God is a believer. But this is not the only passage that says this:

1 Corinthians 15:2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. [NIV]

If you hold firmly. He is not denying that they were saved or that they truly believed, he is saying that if they don't continue then it was for nothing. It is not a one time event, it is a life long discipleship.

2 John 1:8-9 [8] Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. [9] Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. [NIV]

Again you can't lose something you never had in the first place. There are many more just like these but I think that covers that verse you brought up. Eternal life remains eternal whether we retain it or not.

John 10:27-30 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. [28] I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. [29] My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. [30] I and the Father are one." [NIV]

Again I don't see a problem. No one can snatch anyone out of God's hand, but so what? Does that mean that I can't decide not to follow Christ any longer? No, in fact the passages I just quoted show that to be very possible. Notice in this passage that Jesus makes the statement that His sheep FOLLOW Him. If we quit following Him then the verse no longer applies to us.

1 Peter 1:23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. [NIV]

Yes we have been born again of imperishable seed, but again does that mean we can't quit following Christ and thereby forfeit our salvation? No.

In his second letter Peter also writes this:

2 Peter 3:17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. [NIV]

So has Peter changed his mind about the imperishable seed? Of course not, but we can give up our secure position.

John 14:15-17 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. [16] And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- [17] the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. [NIV]

Again you are making this passage into something that it isn't. First notice that I quoted verse 15 also, which says "if you obey what I command" so what if we don't obey? Yes the Counselor will be with us forever, as long as we follow Christ, but if we quit following, then all bets are off, just as all those other passages I quoted say.

Romans 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, [39] neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. [NIV]

I don't see a problem with this passage either. Can anything separate us from the love of Christ? Before you claim I am saying yes, you better look at the whole Bible. Does God love only believers?

John 3:16-17 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." [NIV]

Yet there will be more people in hell than are in heaven. So again I think you are trying to make this verse say something that it dos not say. Look at this:

Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. [NIV]

Did Jesus love Jerusalem (the Jews)? Of course He did, but will they be in heaven or hell? Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ, but that does not mean we cannot be placed back under judgement. Now look at a couple other passages:

2 Tim. 2:11-13 Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him,
we will also live with him; [12]
if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us; [13]
if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself. [NIV]

Also on the same idea:

Matthew 10:33 "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven. [NASB-U]

Jesus will deny us if we deny Him. How can we deny Him? By not following Him any longer, by not following His commands. He will remain faithful, but we might not and His remaining faithful is to the just and holy nature of God, it does not mean that He will remain faithful to us if we leave Him.

You have to take the Bible as a whole to understand it and to understand God. He loves us and offers us forgiveness of our sins and yes while we are in the faith (meaning to follow Christ) He sees Jesus' righteousness when He looks at us, but when we decide to leave Christ, He sees us for who we really are. People seem to think that the Old Testament means nothing to us today, but they forget that the whole Old Testament foretold the coming of Jesus, it is not just a history of the Jews, it is all about Jesus. Now go read the story of the first Passover. Read it with the thought that it is a shadow of our salvation. Let me quote just a very short part of the story:

Exodus 12:21-22 Then Moses summoned all the elders of Israel and said to them, "Go at once and select the animals for your families and slaughter the Passover lamb. [22] Take a bunch of hyssop, dip it into the blood in the basin and put some of the blood on the top and on both sides of the doorframe. Not one of you shall go out the door of his house until morning. [NIV]

What would have happened if someone had gone outside during the night? Would they have been spared because they placed the blood on the doorframe? No, just as our salvation requires that we remain in Jesus Christ, their salvation required them to remain in doors until morning. The blood protected them from God's wrath only while they were under it's protection, and the very same is true of us.

What think ye?

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Before we go farther and we dig deeper in our attempts to defend what we see as truth my Brother; i love you and respect you, although ive never met you, ive read many posts by you.
i believe that your a man of God (YaHWeH). i feel you love trhe LORD and will defend what you belive (as i do) what we see as truth. Iron sharpens iron, and i appreciate your answers and will prayfully consider and read everything you post.

i have in the past posted things that i wanted to hear what people thought about the particular subject....did not answer many because i knew what it would do, and knew it would ruffle many feathers.

Im not trying to do that at all, and i will be very carefull what i post, and tryto answer all questions and how i view scripture. [Smile]

My intentions are earnest and not inteneded to rile anyone, nor to cause strife.

I love the LORD (Yahoshua) with all i know how and want to please him learn from HIS people, and do HIS will, as i feel you do my Brother, so if youwill be patient i will try to (as the Berean's) are known for; seek the matter out along with God's people.. [Smile]

IN sincere love of the Messiah Yahoshua, (Jesus).

barry
bondservant

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

Once SEALED always SEALED until the day of REDEMPTION.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God,whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by barrykind:
OSAS (Once saved always saved) along with [FALSE] {ETERNAL SECURITY} is to me the most evil of false doctrines in the "churchianity" world today.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your opinion is not Biblical. Once you are SEALED you cannot get UN-SEALED! PERIOD!

Its so simple its silly that there are those that would actively peruse the sowing of weed seed in Gods garden.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.,
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

by wildB

In answer to your above quote WildB note that Paul continually warns believers that people who are sexually immoral, drunkards, swindlers, liars, etc... won't get to heaven. Why? Why not just tell them that they know that no sinner will get to heaven? Why name these things, unless what he means is that you can't be a believer and live like this? That would be very consistent with his other writings saying that they must continue in the faith. Anyone who continues in the faith will not live like this. This is not a minor issue, it has eternal consequences.

One last thing. I want to try to address the idea that we are sealed and therefore nothing can ever bring us back under judgment. That sounds great, but it does not hold water if you keep it consistent with the rest of God's word, so we need to look at it again. Below are four of the passages where Paul talks about this seal.

(Ephesians 1:13-14 NIV) [13] And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, [14] who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession-;to the praise of his glory.

(Ephesians 4:30 NIV) And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

(2 Corinthians 1:21-22 NIV) [21] Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, [22] set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

(Colossians 3:2-4 NIV) [2] Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. [3] For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. [4] When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

The first thing you notice when looking at all of these passages is that they all pertain to something we don't yet have. 'deposit guaranteening,' 'for the day of redemption,' 'guaranteening what is to come,' 'when Christ, ... appears...' You may wonder what my point is, it is that this seal (the Holy Spirit) is God's guarantee to us that He will give us what He promised. It does not imply in any way that if we later choose to leave Christ that we can't. In fact the idea that we have not yet gotten what has been promised would give strenght to the argument that we can walk away. And it makes these verse fit with the rest of what Paul's writings say.

I have not quoted anyone except Paul, but I am going to quote from Hebrews now:

(Hebrews 11:13 NIV) All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth.

Why bother to tell us that these people were still living in faith when they died, unless it is important? Notice they had not yet received the things promised. You say we should rightly divide the word, I agree, but part of rightly dividing it is believing what it plainly says.

bondservant
barry

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

because he lives Brother Dale

quote:
When Yahweh saved you what did He replace your stony heart with?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Law is obsolete
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

so now as a Christian, I am free to disregard...

You shall have no other gods before Me.

You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.

You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain,

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

You shall not murder.

You shall not commit adultery.

You shall not steal.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.

what is written on your heart?

Exactly my Brother; that cannot be...the commandments are not done away with...

He who loves me keeps my commandments...is not gone; done away with..........they are written in the "ark" (our heart)..

bondservant
barry

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by barrykind:
OSAS (Once saved always saved) along with [FALSE] {ETERNAL SECURITY} is to me the most evil of false doctrines in the "churchianity" world today.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your opinion is not Biblical. Once you are SEALED you cannot get UN-SEALED! PERIOD!

Its so simple its silly that there are those that would actively peruse the sowing of weed seed in Gods garden.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.,
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

by wildB

In answer to your above quote WildB note that Paul continually warns believers that people who are sexually immoral, drunkards, swindlers, liars, etc... won't get to heaven. Why? Why not just tell them that they know that no sinner will get to heaven? Why name these things, unless what he means is that you can't be a believer and live like this? That would be very consistent with his other writings saying that they must continue in the faith. Anyone who continues in the faith will not live like this. This is not a minor issue, it has eternal consequences.

One last thing. I want to try to address the idea that we are sealed and therefore nothing can ever bring us back under judgment. That sounds great, but it does not hold water if you keep it consistent with the rest of God's word, so we need to look at it again. Below are four of the passages where Paul talks about this seal.

(Ephesians 1:13-14 NIV) [13] And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, [14] who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession-;to the praise of his glory.

(Ephesians 4:30 NIV) And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

(2 Corinthians 1:21-22 NIV) [21] Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, [22] set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

(Colossians 3:2-4 NIV) [2] Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. [3] For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. [4] When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

The first thing you notice when looking at all of these passages is that they all pertain to something we don't yet have. 'deposit guaranteening,' 'for the day of redemption,' 'guaranteening what is to come,' 'when Christ, ... appears...' You may wonder what my point is, it is that this seal (the Holy Spirit) is God's guarantee to us that He will give us what He promised. It does not imply in any way that if we later choose to leave Christ that we can't. In fact the idea that we have not yet gotten what has been promised would give strenght to the argument that we can walk away. And it makes these verse fit with the rest of what Paul's writings say.

I have not quoted anyone except Paul, but I am going to quote from Hebrews now:

(Hebrews 11:13 NIV) All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth.

Why bother to tell us that these people were still living in faith when they died, unless it is important? Notice they had not yet received the things promised. You say we should rightly divide the word, I agree, but part of rightly dividing it is believing what it plainly says.

bondservant
barry

Actually Paul says....

Ephesians 5
1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

One has to be born again to be a CHILD of God and one has to be a Child of God to be a CHILD of DISOBEDIENCE.

Also the loss of INHERITANCE is not the same as the loss of ones soul. One can also lose ALL REWARD yet so as by fire.

The loss of inheritance + the loss of reward does not equal the loss of ones soul as you try to interject.

A Child of God will not be judged at the Great White Throne, but at the Bema.

Again its so simple that its silly for those who try to push their opinion of the simple truth of this verse to forward a very harmful under minding of the eternal security that a child of God has.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

This might help you its some History of OSAS:

A HISTORICAL EXAMINATION
OF THE
DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL SECURITY
BY JEFF PATON

Almost every doctrine within the Christian religion has gone through a developmental stage resulting in what is considered orthodoxy today.

Our understanding of many current doctrines are the result of heated theological battles that have sprung up and challenged the common thought of their day. The victor in these theological battles has always become orthodoxy, and the loser's position has generally become known as heresy.

Orthodoxy has been a fluid idea which the majority has held to be true. Heresy, it has been said, is an opinion held by a minority of men which the majority declares unacceptable. Upon this observation we can gather that "orthodoxy" is not necessarily "truth" since the establishment of truth is not to be determined by a popularity contest. In our modern age where "truth" is determined by the latest opinion poll, we can see the necessity of a "more sure" means of measuring what is the genuine orthodoxy of the Christian religion and what is not.

One principle that was brought forth from John Wesley was, "whatever is true is not new; whatever is new is not true." The only sure truth we can know comes from the Bible. If what we believe is a new and novel idea that has never been given any sanction within the Church, we must conclude that it is not the doctrine of the Bible.

Most Christians are very leery of the approach of modern day cults where an individual is elevated to the status of "prophet." The introduction of new "revelations" from God are supposedly given to supersede the doctrines of the Bible, the established teachings of the early Church, and the cumulative weight of accepted doctrine throughout all of Christian history.

Some of these groups do not claim new revelations, but have based their speculative interpretation upon the limited information we have about the New Testament Church. In light of this, they insist that the modern church is corrupt. Their strategy is to decipher the New Testament and restore the church to its original condition. By doing so, they have chosen to bypass all of church history.

The mistake that they make is not in their intent, but in their approach. The information we get from the Bible about the New Testament Church is vague enough that we cannot reassemble the original without the aid of extra-Biblical literature. Even with the aid of all the available resources, it is not possible for a 20th century mind to place itself into the unique culture and social situation in which the Church was birthed.

Our Westernized understanding of Christianity can do nothing but interfere and distort our thinking of the original Church.
The best gauge that we have of what the early church believed is the record of the Apostolic Fathers. They were the first to have anything that resembled what we have today as the completed New Testament.

Some were taught by the Apostles themselves, or were one generation removed. This does not mean that they were inspired, or that they were infallible, but in all probability they were more accurate in their understanding as to the essential nature and unwritten thoughts of the early church.

This does not mean that they understood everything more fully that we can seeing that we have a complete Bible and 2,000 years of reflection on its truths. What we can conclude is, that compared to us, they were probably more accurate in what they did know.

Anytime someone endeavors to trace the history of a doctrine they must decide on a method of approach. Some start from the beginning and work forward to show how the doctrine developed. Others start with the present, and work back, showing the historical connection with the past. Since the history of a doctrine can span such a large period of time, I will take a different approach, I will start in the middle.

This I believe will simplify things for most readers. By doing this I will start Augustine, the Father of Western thought. It will be easier for most readers to identify with this reference point since his influence has had the greatest impact on our modern theology.

I will trace the doctrine of eternal security forward from Augustine, and then I will trace it back from Augustine to the Early Church to show any influences upon his thought.

AUGUSTINE AND ETERNAL SECURITY

Many of our doctrines have developed from doctrines in their infant stages to what we know and understand today. This is the case with Augustine. He did not teach eternal security as we know it today, but he was a key figure in setting the groundwork that is the basis in which this doctrine could thrive.

His influence on theology and Christian thought as a whole is without question.
This portion of the history of Eternal Security follows Augustine’s influence on forward. The development of his thought on back to the birth of Christianity will be discussed later.

What is important for the reader to know is that this influence exists before we take a look at whether it is a Scripturally sound influence.
We all have a paradigm on how we approach what we see in the Scriptures. We come to the table with pre-conceived biases that at times will determine what we see as truth from the Scriptures.

The foundational beliefs and biases that many Christians have today are to be discovered in the roots of what Augustine has started. For this reason, "Saint" Augustine is referred to with great favor amongst most theologians.

While most of these theologians agree with Augustine, many of them don’t. All of them will concede his great influence on Christian thought.

Augustine, the bishop of Hippo, was born in Tagaste, in Numidia, on November 13, 354. He was raised in a divided household where his mother attempted to influence him with Christianity, and his father, also a Christian, directed him towards worldly and secular knowledge that could bring him profit.

When he moved to Carthage as an adult, he took an interest in rhetoric and was influenced by the Manichaean error. He believed and taught these errors for around 9-13 years until he was influenced and baptized a Christian on Easter of 387 by Ambrose.

Perhaps there has been no one that has ever lived that has impacted the world of theology as Augustine has. He was a Roman Catholic, and is responsible for much of what we consider "Catholic" doctrine today. Surprisingly, he can also be credited with being a major player in Protestant thought also.

Here is a short list, which shows many of the doctrines that he was credited with introducing into the church.

AUGUSTINE’S CONTRIBUTIONS
1. Absolute predestination
2. Impossibility of falling away or apostasy. (Eternal Security)
3. Man has no free will.
4. One cannot know if they are saved.
5. God commands impossibilities.
6. The supreme authority of the Roman church.
7. Purgatory.
8. Prayers for the dead.
9. The damnation of unbaptized infants and adults.
10. Sex is sinful because depravity is inherited.

The first five "contributions" may appear to be what is known as "Calvinism." This is exactly where the basis of Calvin’s theory comes from. Points 6-10, do not fit the Protestant model of salvation in any way, it is Roman Catholicism.

The question is, how can we accept the first five points that are listed in light of the egregious errors about salvation that this man taught that promotes Roman Catholicism? It is clear that his view of things is at best confusing, self-contradictory, and outright unbiblical at points.

Because of this we must cautiously entertain what he taught with great skepticism. How can we blindly accept what he had to say when we know that he obviously was not clear about salvation?

This does not mean that everything that Augustine thought and taught is to be thrown out because of what he believed at other points.

I believe the Catholic Church is in great error on the issue of salvation. However, I agree with them about the Trinity of God. Because someone is wrong in one point does not mean that they are wrong in all points, though they may be!

I believe that while Augustine may have touched on truth in some ideas that are not listed above, I have singled out the preceding list as an example of what I believe to be his errors. The subject of why I believe that these are all errors will be covered later as I trace the thought of Augustine back to its source.

For now, I only want to establish the starting point of these doctrines and to follow them where we are today.

John Calvin is a better-known figure to Protestants today. He wrote the most talked about systematic theology the world has ever known. His ideas have permeated the Protestant world and will perhaps do so until our Lord returns.

Calvin took the ideas set forth by Augustine and developed them even further. Instead of just touching upon the ideas of predestination, final perseverance, and the believers security, he developed an incredible system of thought that knows few rivals.

John Calvin took the concept of Augustine and filled in the unanswered voids to form his theology. He followed these ideas to their logical end. If man is not free and God must predestinate, and all are not saved, then God must be Sovereign in salvation.

This tends to ignore the fact that if God willed man to be free, and thus responsible for his own damnation, this would still mean that God is Sovereign. Sovereignty and predestination are in no way essential partners.

The acronym for Calvinism is TULIP. This is what is known as the "Five points of Calvinism."

1. Total Depravity (Free will lost) (3)
2. Unconditional Election (Salvation is decreed apart from any change in an individual.) (4)(1)
3. Limited Atonement (Jesus "paid" for the "elect" that he desired to save. No one else!) (1)
4. Imputed righteousness (mystical transfer of righteousness in place of our filthy rags) (5)
5. Perseverance of the saints. (Assurance, eternal security) (2) (1)

(A technical note: The official "I" in TULIP is "Irresistible Grace," which is tied to Unconditional Election. I use Imputed Righteousness because it is the logical progression of explaining "how" a predestined sinner (Points 1-3) is allowed into God's perfect heaven).

After each of the five points there is a number that corresponds to the previous list of Augustine. It is almost as if Augustine had most of the pieces of the puzzle and Calvin put them together and added the ones that he thought were missing.

Following in the footsteps of Calvin we have Theodore Beza who took the conclusions of Calvin to its logical end and developed what we would consider "Calvinism" today.

We can attribute the development of the Calvinistic theory of the atonement around this later stage.

We can follow the trail of Calvinism throughout history, mainly through the Church of England and the Puritans.

The Baptists held to this system quite consistently until about 1800. At this point there was a compromise on the issue of predestination and the extent of the atonement.

This was perhaps due to the influence of the Wesleyan revival or possibly the New Light movement of Barton Stone and Alexander Campbell. For whatever the reason was, there was a definite shift in their thought around this time.

The most definite deviation from Augustine and Calvin, while holding tenaciously to their end conclusion, came with the entry of the theology of dispensationalism. J.N. Darby put this into motion with the Plymouth Brethren, and it was later catapulted into prominence with the revival associated with D.L. Moody.

The significance of dispensationalism to the development of eternal security lies in the approach in which they divide Scripture. They viewed God as having a different plan of salvation in different times or "dispensations."

This seemed to give sufficient allowance to accept the "Biblical" idea of irrefutable security and free-will at the same time. At this point the idea of a Gospel that allowed all men freedom to enter into eternal life while at the same time denying them freedom in their eternal destiny afterwards, has come to full acceptance within 20th century Christianity.

To understand the impact of this shift we must look back to the high-Calvinistic theory. If you will observe, the logical conclusion of predestination to salvation is the unfailing salvation of the one who is elect.

The fact that the elect will never fail or apostatize is in the fact that they were predestined. They are not free to do otherwise.

The logical conclusion of the opposite doctrine is that salvation is conditionally based upon faith and available to all. This implication of free grace to all leads us to the inevitable conclusion that we are not "locked in" to salvation in any way.

If we take the position that we are given the opportunity to choose whether we wish to be saved or not, does this not infer that we are free to choose not to be saved at a later date? Eternal Security logically requires absolute predestination.

In fairness to the Calvinistic theory we must understand that they believe that a true believer will be evidenced by the fact that they "persevere unto the end" in the faith.

Those that depart or fall away show that they were deceived and never really elect. Even though the Calvinistic theory of the perseverance of the saints is expressed differently than our modern idea of eternal security, it must be admitted that the logical outcome of Augustine’s and Calvin’s predestination inevitably demands an Eternal Security for the elect.

In this the Baptist and dispensational teaching follows the line of thought properly, but misses the mark of logic and consistency when it denies the doctrine of absolute predestination.

If we are to follow this path backwards we cannot deny the dependence upon the ideas that preceded them. The path can vary a little on our way back, but inevitably it arrives at the doorstep of the man named Augustine. One cannot trace the doctrine of Eternal Security all the way back through the Apostolic Fathers and to the Scriptures.

The doctrine had a specific time of arrival in history and it was around the beginning of the 19th century. Its beginning has its springboard taken from the absolute predestination and perseverance of the saints as propagated by the Calvinists. John Calvin himself was not the first to discover these ideas but found them loosely stated in the doctrines of St. Augustine.

The trail ends here and does not have any endorsement of the early Church Fathers that preceded Augustine.
Where we are Today

It seems like most Christians today uncritically adhere to this idea of eternal security. It has been the predominate doctrine of the Church for the last 80 years and continues to gain strength. Looking at the basis of where we derive this doctrine from, we must ask ourselves as to where Augustine’s comes from.

If it is derived solely from the Scriptures, we must listen up and learn from his great observations. If it comes from an outside source we must question it and potentially discard it. Of the two options available to us I believe that the later is the truth.

Up to this point I only wished to show you the theological connection of Eternal Security to the idea of predestination that was taught by Augustine and Calvin. To see this connection is vital and necessary in order for you to see that eternal security is a theological invention based upon theological presuppositions and not upon Biblical and historical examination.

If Augustine was correct in his conclusions about predestination, then he was correct in his determination about the security of the elect.

The two doctrines go hand-in-hand.
The historical question confronts us; did Augustine derive his doctrine from the Scriptures? Or did he derive these conclusions from some philosophy outside of Christianity?

Does he adhere to the teachings of the early Church Fathers on the subject? Or does he take a drastic deviation from the accepted truth of historical Christianity up to his day? These are important questions for any believer who loves truth.

Augustine, the Manichaean
As discussed in the brief biography of Augustine near the beginning of this history we noted that he was a Manichaean for at least nine years before he entered the priesthood of the Roman Catholic church.

Manichaeanism was a heretical sect that gained such popularity in Augustine’s time that it nearly superseded Christianity. The founder of this religion was called Mani, in which the term Manichaenism is derived. He lived around 216-276 A.D. He set out to found a universal religion that was a combination of Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, and Christianity.

The "Christianity" that Mani was exposed to was the Gnostic form of the religion that the apostle John wrote so vigorously against in his First Epistle.

He interpreted the N.T. history in a allegorical and symbolical way which was made to represent an entirely new religious system that was totally at odds with Christianity and its fundamental teachings.

There is a question that confronts every one of us. When we concede to the indisputable fact that Augustine was the focal point in Christian history where several doctrines took an unprecedented shift to prominence, and from that point they became the standards in which to build our theologies, we must evaluate where these ideas actually come from.

Are they truly expressions of Christian philosophy or Manichaean influence? This is not an unfair question since the introduction of several of Augustine’s contributions were not accepted as orthodox Christianity prior to this time, but were associated with Manichaeanism and "Christian" Gnosticism; both being unbiblical heresies. Some historians have noted that they thought that Augustine brought this influence into the Church.

Mainly, this was the Gnostic doctrine of the evil nature of matter and the purity of the spirit, (duality) and absolute predestination. Both of which are the basis and essential elements of the doctrine of eternal security that was to follow after centuries of development.

Because of his influence, much of Catholic and Protestant history has been founded on the belief that matter, (the physical body and its appetites,) are the embodiment of evil. This belief is undeniably Gnostic and not Christian.

This duality that the Gnostics taught was illustrated by describing a pure golden ring as the spirit, and a pile of manure as matter, or the body. The ring can be put into the pile of dung and completely surrounded, but the filthiness of the dung does not permeate it. It remains as pure as it always has.

Augustine taught that the body, flesh, was the seat of evil and sin. This is why procreation was a sinful act in his mind.

To this day I have heard eternal security teachers refer to the flesh as an entity that cannot help but sin, while at the same time they have asserted that sin cannot affect the spirit or the spiritual security of the believer.

Gnosticism is alive today in those who propagate a salvation that makes the spirit pure, while maintaining the sinfulness of matter. The spirit is pure, but the body is sinful at the same time. A little Christian varnish may make this doctrine more appealing, but under the surface it is still pagan and not Christian!

One idea brought over from Buddhism is the idea that we are to die to "self." Being delivered from "self" might get us to Nirvana but not to heaven. The problem here is that the idea of "flesh" is thought of as the person, (self), which being matter, is therefore considered sinful.

The Scriptures do not tell us that we are to be saved from "self." There is nothing wrong being the people we were created to be. God's qualm with us is not our "person" or "self"; it is our rebellion with Him.

The thing we are to be cleansed from is not the "self," but the defilement and the filthiness of flesh. We are commanded "Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." Jesus Himself made the proper love of our "self" as a duty and a virtue when He said: "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."

There are many preachers that are mistaken when they teach that we "should die to self." It is true that we should not be selfish, but it is also true that "selflessness" does not save us or make us holy.

The Bible reveals to us that there is no one more absolutely "dead to self" than the vilest sinner. They disrespect their own health and welfare through addictions to drugs and alcohol.

They are dead to the voice of reason and conscience. They take no care for the future...they are dead to self.

It is an interesting fact that Romans chapter seven, where Paul cries out "Oh wretched man that I am! Who shall save me from this body of death!" was universally understood to be Paul’s cry for conversion from Judaism before Augustine changed this defeated image of a convicted and hopelessly sinful man into the norm for the Christian life.

He changed his own previously held interpretation of this verse (the historical position) in order to rob his doctrinal opponent Pelagius of a proof text.

By doing so he changed the historically accepted meaning of this passage forever, and created a proof text that bolstered his belief in Gnostic dualism.

The spirit is holy; the body is evil. The spiritual man is secure while the physical man remains hopelessly corrupt and sinful; holy and unholy at the same time.

Augustine had written refutations to Manichaeanism before he had to contend with Pelagius. It is clear that he maintained the portions that he thought were part of his upbringing in the Christian tradition.

The difficulty comes in when we consider the type of Christianity that Mani included into this equation that Augustine draws from.

It was Gnostic "christianity," the very one that the apostle John condemns and warns us about! (1 John 1:1-9)

Augustine thought that Pelagius had taken a heretical stance by saying that man can "will" his own way into the kingdom of God and does not need any special drawing of the Spirit to compel them.

To counteract this argument, Augustine went to the extreme opposite end by drawing from the absolute predestination that he was taught as a Manichaean. He brought this belief over with himself when he became aChristian. This was the beginning of what was to become Calvinism and then modern day Eternal Security. Ultimately, the roots of Eternal Security are in the Gnosticism that preceded Augustine, but it was Augustine that has the unwelcome honor of leavening the whole lump.

Eternal Security is pagan in its origin and is a thought that is in opposition to the Bible and genuine Christianity.

Its lineage cannot be traced back but a few hundred years where it draws its inspiration from the "perseverance of the Saints" which in turn was drawn from Augustine's introduction of Gnostic and Buddhist thought into the Church. Eternal Security has a history, but not a very good one for the Christian who knows its origin.

May God save us from its falsehood.

BIBLIOGRAPHY FOR FURTHER STUDY
Manichaeanism, Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, McClintock and Strong, Baker Bookhouse, 1981
Augustine, Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, McClintock and Strong, Baker Bookhouse, 1981
A History of Heresy, David Christie-Murray, Oxford University Press, 1976
The Spreading Flame, F.F. Bruce, The Paternoster Press, 1995
Scriptural Holiness and Keswick Teaching Compared, A.M. Hills, Schmul Publishers, No date
Where Two Creeds Meet, O. Glenn McKinley, Nazarene Publishing House, 1965
Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up?, David W. Bercot, Scroll Publishing, 1989
A Theology of Love, Mildred Bangs Wynkoop, Nazarene Publishing House, 1972

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

Jeff Paton, the staunch defender of Arminianism.

http://www.aracnet.com/~wing/cal_arm.htm

Arminian:

1. Free Will or Human Ability

Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; it is man's contribution to salvation.

Calvinism:

1. Total Inability or Total Depravity

Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not--indeed he cannot--choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ--it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation--it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

Arminianism:

2. Conditional Election

God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

Calvinism:

2. Unconditional Election

God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

Arminianism:

3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement

Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

Calvinism:

3. Limited Atonement or Particular Redemption

Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation.

Arminianism:

4. The Holy Spirit Can be Effectually Resisted

The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.

Calvanism:

. Irresistible Grace or The Efficacious Call of the Spirit

In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be, and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

Arminianism:

5. Falling from Grace

Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ--that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost.

Calvinism:

5. Perseverance of the Saints

All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end.

Arminianism REJECTED
by the Synod of Dort

This was the system of thought contained in the "Remonstrance" (though the "five points" were not originally arranged in this order). It was submitted by the Arminians to the Church of Holland in 1610 for adoption but was rejected by the Synod of Dort in 1619 on the ground that it was unscriptural.

Calvinism REAFFIRMED
by the Synod of Dort

This system of theology was reaffirmed by the Synod of Dort in 1619 as the doctrine of salvation contained in the Holy Scriptures. The system was at that time formulated into "five points" (in answer to the five points submitted by the Arminians) and has ever since been known as the "five points of Calvinism."

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
This might help you its some History of OSAS:

A HISTORICAL EXAMINATION
OF THE
DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL SECURITY
BY JEFF PATON

Almost every doctrine within the Christian religion has gone through a developmental stage resulting in what is considered orthodoxy today.

Our understanding of many current doctrines are the result of heated theological battles that have sprung up and challenged the common thought of their day. The victor in these theological battles has always become orthodoxy, and the loser's position has generally become known as heresy.

Orthodoxy has been a fluid idea which the majority has held to be true. Heresy, it has been said, is an opinion held by a minority of men which the majority declares unacceptable. Upon this observation we can gather that "orthodoxy" is not necessarily "truth" since the establishment of truth is not to be determined by a popularity contest. In our modern age where "truth" is determined by the latest opinion poll, we can see the necessity of a "more sure" means of measuring what is the genuine orthodoxy of the Christian religion and what is not.

One principle that was brought forth from John Wesley was, "whatever is true is not new; whatever is new is not true." The only sure truth we can know comes from the Bible. If what we believe is a new and novel idea that has never been given any sanction within the Church, we must conclude that it is not the doctrine of the Bible.

Most Christians are very leery of the approach of modern day cults where an individual is elevated to the status of "prophet." The introduction of new "revelations" from God are supposedly given to supersede the doctrines of the Bible, the established teachings of the early Church, and the cumulative weight of accepted doctrine throughout all of Christian history.

Some of these groups do not claim new revelations, but have based their speculative interpretation upon the limited information we have about the New Testament Church. In light of this, they insist that the modern church is corrupt. Their strategy is to decipher the New Testament and restore the church to its original condition. By doing so, they have chosen to bypass all of church history.

The mistake that they make is not in their intent, but in their approach. The information we get from the Bible about the New Testament Church is vague enough that we cannot reassemble the original without the aid of extra-Biblical literature. Even with the aid of all the available resources, it is not possible for a 20th century mind to place itself into the unique culture and social situation in which the Church was birthed.

Our Westernized understanding of Christianity can do nothing but interfere and distort our thinking of the original Church.
The best gauge that we have of what the early church believed is the record of the Apostolic Fathers. They were the first to have anything that resembled what we have today as the completed New Testament.

Some were taught by the Apostles themselves, or were one generation removed. This does not mean that they were inspired, or that they were infallible, but in all probability they were more accurate in their understanding as to the essential nature and unwritten thoughts of the early church.

This does not mean that they understood everything more fully that we can seeing that we have a complete Bible and 2,000 years of reflection on its truths. What we can conclude is, that compared to us, they were probably more accurate in what they did know.

Anytime someone endeavors to trace the history of a doctrine they must decide on a method of approach. Some start from the beginning and work forward to show how the doctrine developed. Others start with the present, and work back, showing the historical connection with the past. Since the history of a doctrine can span such a large period of time, I will take a different approach, I will start in the middle.

This I believe will simplify things for most readers. By doing this I will start Augustine, the Father of Western thought. It will be easier for most readers to identify with this reference point since his influence has had the greatest impact on our modern theology.

I will trace the doctrine of eternal security forward from Augustine, and then I will trace it back from Augustine to the Early Church to show any influences upon his thought.

AUGUSTINE AND ETERNAL SECURITY

Many of our doctrines have developed from doctrines in their infant stages to what we know and understand today. This is the case with Augustine. He did not teach eternal security as we know it today, but he was a key figure in setting the groundwork that is the basis in which this doctrine could thrive.

His influence on theology and Christian thought as a whole is without question.
This portion of the history of Eternal Security follows Augustine’s influence on forward. The development of his thought on back to the birth of Christianity will be discussed later.

What is important for the reader to know is that this influence exists before we take a look at whether it is a Scripturally sound influence.
We all have a paradigm on how we approach what we see in the Scriptures. We come to the table with pre-conceived biases that at times will determine what we see as truth from the Scriptures.

The foundational beliefs and biases that many Christians have today are to be discovered in the roots of what Augustine has started. For this reason, "Saint" Augustine is referred to with great favor amongst most theologians.

While most of these theologians agree with Augustine, many of them don’t. All of them will concede his great influence on Christian thought.

Augustine, the bishop of Hippo, was born in Tagaste, in Numidia, on November 13, 354. He was raised in a divided household where his mother attempted to influence him with Christianity, and his father, also a Christian, directed him towards worldly and secular knowledge that could bring him profit.

When he moved to Carthage as an adult, he took an interest in rhetoric and was influenced by the Manichaean error. He believed and taught these errors for around 9-13 years until he was influenced and baptized a Christian on Easter of 387 by Ambrose.

Perhaps there has been no one that has ever lived that has impacted the world of theology as Augustine has. He was a Roman Catholic, and is responsible for much of what we consider "Catholic" doctrine today. Surprisingly, he can also be credited with being a major player in Protestant thought also.

Here is a short list, which shows many of the doctrines that he was credited with introducing into the church.

AUGUSTINE’S CONTRIBUTIONS
1. Absolute predestination
2. Impossibility of falling away or apostasy. (Eternal Security)
3. Man has no free will.
4. One cannot know if they are saved.
5. God commands impossibilities.
6. The supreme authority of the Roman church.
7. Purgatory.
8. Prayers for the dead.
9. The damnation of unbaptized infants and adults.
10. Sex is sinful because depravity is inherited.

The first five "contributions" may appear to be what is known as "Calvinism." This is exactly where the basis of Calvin’s theory comes from. Points 6-10, do not fit the Protestant model of salvation in any way, it is Roman Catholicism.

The question is, how can we accept the first five points that are listed in light of the egregious errors about salvation that this man taught that promotes Roman Catholicism? It is clear that his view of things is at best confusing, self-contradictory, and outright unbiblical at points.

Because of this we must cautiously entertain what he taught with great skepticism. How can we blindly accept what he had to say when we know that he obviously was not clear about salvation?

This does not mean that everything that Augustine thought and taught is to be thrown out because of what he believed at other points.

I believe the Catholic Church is in great error on the issue of salvation. However, I agree with them about the Trinity of God. Because someone is wrong in one point does not mean that they are wrong in all points, though they may be!

I believe that while Augustine may have touched on truth in some ideas that are not listed above, I have singled out the preceding list as an example of what I believe to be his errors. The subject of why I believe that these are all errors will be covered later as I trace the thought of Augustine back to its source.

For now, I only want to establish the starting point of these doctrines and to follow them where we are today.

John Calvin is a better-known figure to Protestants today. He wrote the most talked about systematic theology the world has ever known. His ideas have permeated the Protestant world and will perhaps do so until our Lord returns.

Calvin took the ideas set forth by Augustine and developed them even further. Instead of just touching upon the ideas of predestination, final perseverance, and the believers security, he developed an incredible system of thought that knows few rivals.

John Calvin took the concept of Augustine and filled in the unanswered voids to form his theology. He followed these ideas to their logical end. If man is not free and God must predestinate, and all are not saved, then God must be Sovereign in salvation.

This tends to ignore the fact that if God willed man to be free, and thus responsible for his own damnation, this would still mean that God is Sovereign. Sovereignty and predestination are in no way essential partners.

The acronym for Calvinism is TULIP. This is what is known as the "Five points of Calvinism."

1. Total Depravity (Free will lost) (3)
2. Unconditional Election (Salvation is decreed apart from any change in an individual.) (4)(1)
3. Limited Atonement (Jesus "paid" for the "elect" that he desired to save. No one else!) (1)
4. Imputed righteousness (mystical transfer of righteousness in place of our filthy rags) (5)
5. Perseverance of the saints. (Assurance, eternal security) (2) (1)

(A technical note: The official "I" in TULIP is "Irresistible Grace," which is tied to Unconditional Election. I use Imputed Righteousness because it is the logical progression of explaining "how" a predestined sinner (Points 1-3) is allowed into God's perfect heaven).

After each of the five points there is a number that corresponds to the previous list of Augustine. It is almost as if Augustine had most of the pieces of the puzzle and Calvin put them together and added the ones that he thought were missing.

Following in the footsteps of Calvin we have Theodore Beza who took the conclusions of Calvin to its logical end and developed what we would consider "Calvinism" today.

We can attribute the development of the Calvinistic theory of the atonement around this later stage.

We can follow the trail of Calvinism throughout history, mainly through the Church of England and the Puritans.

The Baptists held to this system quite consistently until about 1800. At this point there was a compromise on the issue of predestination and the extent of the atonement.

This was perhaps due to the influence of the Wesleyan revival or possibly the New Light movement of Barton Stone and Alexander Campbell. For whatever the reason was, there was a definite shift in their thought around this time.

The most definite deviation from Augustine and Calvin, while holding tenaciously to their end conclusion, came with the entry of the theology of dispensationalism. J.N. Darby put this into motion with the Plymouth Brethren, and it was later catapulted into prominence with the revival associated with D.L. Moody.

The significance of dispensationalism to the development of eternal security lies in the approach in which they divide Scripture. They viewed God as having a different plan of salvation in different times or "dispensations."

This seemed to give sufficient allowance to accept the "Biblical" idea of irrefutable security and free-will at the same time. At this point the idea of a Gospel that allowed all men freedom to enter into eternal life while at the same time denying them freedom in their eternal destiny afterwards, has come to full acceptance within 20th century Christianity.

To understand the impact of this shift we must look back to the high-Calvinistic theory. If you will observe, the logical conclusion of predestination to salvation is the unfailing salvation of the one who is elect.

The fact that the elect will never fail or apostatize is in the fact that they were predestined. They are not free to do otherwise.

The logical conclusion of the opposite doctrine is that salvation is conditionally based upon faith and available to all. This implication of free grace to all leads us to the inevitable conclusion that we are not "locked in" to salvation in any way.

If we take the position that we are given the opportunity to choose whether we wish to be saved or not, does this not infer that we are free to choose not to be saved at a later date? Eternal Security logically requires absolute predestination.

In fairness to the Calvinistic theory we must understand that they believe that a true believer will be evidenced by the fact that they "persevere unto the end" in the faith.

Those that depart or fall away show that they were deceived and never really elect. Even though the Calvinistic theory of the perseverance of the saints is expressed differently than our modern idea of eternal security, it must be admitted that the logical outcome of Augustine’s and Calvin’s predestination inevitably demands an Eternal Security for the elect.

In this the Baptist and dispensational teaching follows the line of thought properly, but misses the mark of logic and consistency when it denies the doctrine of absolute predestination.

If we are to follow this path backwards we cannot deny the dependence upon the ideas that preceded them. The path can vary a little on our way back, but inevitably it arrives at the doorstep of the man named Augustine. One cannot trace the doctrine of Eternal Security all the way back through the Apostolic Fathers and to the Scriptures.

The doctrine had a specific time of arrival in history and it was around the beginning of the 19th century. Its beginning has its springboard taken from the absolute predestination and perseverance of the saints as propagated by the Calvinists. John Calvin himself was not the first to discover these ideas but found them loosely stated in the doctrines of St. Augustine.

The trail ends here and does not have any endorsement of the early Church Fathers that preceded Augustine.
Where we are Today

It seems like most Christians today uncritically adhere to this idea of eternal security. It has been the predominate doctrine of the Church for the last 80 years and continues to gain strength. Looking at the basis of where we derive this doctrine from, we must ask ourselves as to where Augustine’s comes from.

If it is derived solely from the Scriptures, we must listen up and learn from his great observations. If it comes from an outside source we must question it and potentially discard it. Of the two options available to us I believe that the later is the truth.

Up to this point I only wished to show you the theological connection of Eternal Security to the idea of predestination that was taught by Augustine and Calvin. To see this connection is vital and necessary in order for you to see that eternal security is a theological invention based upon theological presuppositions and not upon Biblical and historical examination.

If Augustine was correct in his conclusions about predestination, then he was correct in his determination about the security of the elect.

The two doctrines go hand-in-hand.
The historical question confronts us; did Augustine derive his doctrine from the Scriptures? Or did he derive these conclusions from some philosophy outside of Christianity?

Does he adhere to the teachings of the early Church Fathers on the subject? Or does he take a drastic deviation from the accepted truth of historical Christianity up to his day? These are important questions for any believer who loves truth.

Augustine, the Manichaean
As discussed in the brief biography of Augustine near the beginning of this history we noted that he was a Manichaean for at least nine years before he entered the priesthood of the Roman Catholic church.

Manichaeanism was a heretical sect that gained such popularity in Augustine’s time that it nearly superseded Christianity. The founder of this religion was called Mani, in which the term Manichaenism is derived. He lived around 216-276 A.D. He set out to found a universal religion that was a combination of Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, and Christianity.

The "Christianity" that Mani was exposed to was the Gnostic form of the religion that the apostle John wrote so vigorously against in his First Epistle.

He interpreted the N.T. history in a allegorical and symbolical way which was made to represent an entirely new religious system that was totally at odds with Christianity and its fundamental teachings.

There is a question that confronts every one of us. When we concede to the indisputable fact that Augustine was the focal point in Christian history where several doctrines took an unprecedented shift to prominence, and from that point they became the standards in which to build our theologies, we must evaluate where these ideas actually come from.

Are they truly expressions of Christian philosophy or Manichaean influence? This is not an unfair question since the introduction of several of Augustine’s contributions were not accepted as orthodox Christianity prior to this time, but were associated with Manichaeanism and "Christian" Gnosticism; both being unbiblical heresies. Some historians have noted that they thought that Augustine brought this influence into the Church.

Mainly, this was the Gnostic doctrine of the evil nature of matter and the purity of the spirit, (duality) and absolute predestination. Both of which are the basis and essential elements of the doctrine of eternal security that was to follow after centuries of development.

Because of his influence, much of Catholic and Protestant history has been founded on the belief that matter, (the physical body and its appetites,) are the embodiment of evil. This belief is undeniably Gnostic and not Christian.

This duality that the Gnostics taught was illustrated by describing a pure golden ring as the spirit, and a pile of manure as matter, or the body. The ring can be put into the pile of dung and completely surrounded, but the filthiness of the dung does not permeate it. It remains as pure as it always has.

Augustine taught that the body, flesh, was the seat of evil and sin. This is why procreation was a sinful act in his mind.

To this day I have heard eternal security teachers refer to the flesh as an entity that cannot help but sin, while at the same time they have asserted that sin cannot affect the spirit or the spiritual security of the believer.

Gnosticism is alive today in those who propagate a salvation that makes the spirit pure, while maintaining the sinfulness of matter. The spirit is pure, but the body is sinful at the same time. A little Christian varnish may make this doctrine more appealing, but under the surface it is still pagan and not Christian!

One idea brought over from Buddhism is the idea that we are to die to "self." Being delivered from "self" might get us to Nirvana but not to heaven. The problem here is that the idea of "flesh" is thought of as the person, (self), which being matter, is therefore considered sinful.

The Scriptures do not tell us that we are to be saved from "self." There is nothing wrong being the people we were created to be. God's qualm with us is not our "person" or "self"; it is our rebellion with Him.

The thing we are to be cleansed from is not the "self," but the defilement and the filthiness of flesh. We are commanded "Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." Jesus Himself made the proper love of our "self" as a duty and a virtue when He said: "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."

There are many preachers that are mistaken when they teach that we "should die to self." It is true that we should not be selfish, but it is also true that "selflessness" does not save us or make us holy.

The Bible reveals to us that there is no one more absolutely "dead to self" than the vilest sinner. They disrespect their own health and welfare through addictions to drugs and alcohol.

They are dead to the voice of reason and conscience. They take no care for the future...they are dead to self.

It is an interesting fact that Romans chapter seven, where Paul cries out "Oh wretched man that I am! Who shall save me from this body of death!" was universally understood to be Paul’s cry for conversion from Judaism before Augustine changed this defeated image of a convicted and hopelessly sinful man into the norm for the Christian life.

He changed his own previously held interpretation of this verse (the historical position) in order to rob his doctrinal opponent Pelagius of a proof text.

By doing so he changed the historically accepted meaning of this passage forever, and created a proof text that bolstered his belief in Gnostic dualism.

The spirit is holy; the body is evil. The spiritual man is secure while the physical man remains hopelessly corrupt and sinful; holy and unholy at the same time.

Augustine had written refutations to Manichaeanism before he had to contend with Pelagius. It is clear that he maintained the portions that he thought were part of his upbringing in the Christian tradition.

The difficulty comes in when we consider the type of Christianity that Mani included into this equation that Augustine draws from.

It was Gnostic "christianity," the very one that the apostle John condemns and warns us about! (1 John 1:1-9)

Augustine thought that Pelagius had taken a heretical stance by saying that man can "will" his own way into the kingdom of God and does not need any special drawing of the Spirit to compel them.

To counteract this argument, Augustine went to the extreme opposite end by drawing from the absolute predestination that he was taught as a Manichaean. He brought this belief over with himself when he became aChristian. This was the beginning of what was to become Calvinism and then modern day Eternal Security. Ultimately, the roots of Eternal Security are in the Gnosticism that preceded Augustine, but it was Augustine that has the unwelcome honor of leavening the whole lump.

Eternal Security is pagan in its origin and is a thought that is in opposition to the Bible and genuine Christianity.

Its lineage cannot be traced back but a few hundred years where it draws its inspiration from the "perseverance of the Saints" which in turn was drawn from Augustine's introduction of Gnostic and Buddhist thought into the Church. Eternal Security has a history, but not a very good one for the Christian who knows its origin.

May God save us from its falsehood.

BIBLIOGRAPHY FOR FURTHER STUDY
Manichaeanism, Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, McClintock and Strong, Baker Bookhouse, 1981
Augustine, Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, McClintock and Strong, Baker Bookhouse, 1981
A History of Heresy, David Christie-Murray, Oxford University Press, 1976
The Spreading Flame, F.F. Bruce, The Paternoster Press, 1995
Scriptural Holiness and Keswick Teaching Compared, A.M. Hills, Schmul Publishers, No date
Where Two Creeds Meet, O. Glenn McKinley, Nazarene Publishing House, 1965
Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up?, David W. Bercot, Scroll Publishing, 1989
A Theology of Love, Mildred Bangs Wynkoop, Nazarene Publishing House, 1972

Wow you shur go thru a lot of chitter chatter to permote your opinion, summed up in this verse from
your cut and past post.

"Up to this point I only wished to show you the theological connection of Eternal Security to the idea of predestination that was taught by Augustine and Calvin. To see this connection is vital and necessary in order for you to see that eternal security is a theological invention based upon theological presuppositions and not upon Biblical and historical examination.

Now you lump Once SEALED Always SEALED(until the day of redemption) with the Calvin dogma. Wow! How silly is that! Why cannot you see the simplicity that is in Christ? Why do you continue to sow weed seed in Gods Garden? Or is this a mis guided attempt to indirectly get some banned for teaching Calvinism?

A Child of God will not be judged at the Great White Throne, but at the Bema.

Again its so simple that its silly for those who try to push their opinion of the simple truth of this verse to forward a very harmful under minding of the eternal security that a child of God has.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

WildB you keep bringing up one verse of scripture to defend the damnable doctrine of "Once Saved Always Saved"....

So WildB when Yahweh sealed you what did He replace your stony heart with?

So now as a sealed Christian, are you free to disregard...

You shall have no other gods before Me.

You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.

You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain,

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

You shall not murder.

You shall not commit adultery.

You shall not steal.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.

what is written on your sealed heart?

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
WildB you keep bringing up one verse of scripture to defend the damnable doctrine of "Once Saved Always Saved"....

So WildB when Yahweh sealed you what did He replace your stony heart with?

So now as a sealed Christian, are you free to disregard...

You shall have no other gods before Me.

You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.

You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain,

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

You shall not murder.

You shall not commit adultery.

You shall not steal.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.

what is written on your sealed heart?

Your changing of my wording , which honors Gods Word, does not make your opinion right.

I am more than confident that Once SEALED Always SEALED(until the day of redemption)

Again its so simple that its silly for those who try to push their opinion of the simple truth of this verse to forward a very harmful under minding of the eternal security that a child of God has.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

And as for my heart I give you this verse to chew on.

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

You and Barry need to get over your selfs.

Just because you boys have seniority on this board don't make your opinion Biblical.

Please unfold your arms and hearts, letting the Spirit of God teach you the simple truth of His Word in which WE TEACH ONE SHOULD EMBRACE and not the sillyness of mans opinion.

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

http://www.bible-researcher.com/sproul1.html

God’s Sovereignty in Salvation

This is the issue: Is it a part of God’s gift of salvation, or is it in our own contribution to salvation? Is our salvation wholly of God or does it ultimately depend on something that we do for ourselves? Those who say the latter, that it ultimately depends on something we do for ourselves, thereby deny humanity’s utter helplessness in sin and affirm that a form of semi-Pelagianism is true after all. It is no wonder then that later Reformed theology condemned Arminianism as being, in principle, both a return to Rome because, in effect, it turned faith into a meritorious work, and a betrayal of the Reformation because it denied the sovereignty of God in saving sinners, which was the deepest religious and theological principle of the reformers’ thought. Arminianism was indeed, in Reformed eyes, a renunciation of New Testament Christianity in favor of New Testament Judaism. For to rely on oneself for faith is no different in principle than to rely on oneself for works, and the one is as un-Christian and anti-Christian as the other. In the light of what Luther says to Erasmus there is no doubt that he would have endorsed this judgment.

And yet this view is the overwhelming majority report today in professing evangelical circles. And as long as semi-Pelagianism, which is simply a thinly veiled version of real Pelagianism at its core — as long as it prevails in the Church, I don’t know what’s going to happen. But I know, however, what will not happen: there will not be a new Reformation. Until we humble ourselves and understand that no man is an island and that no man has an island of righteousness, that we are utterly dependent upon the unmixed grace of God for our salvation, we will not begin to rest upon grace and rejoice in the greatness of God’s sovereignty, and we will not be rid of the pagan influence of humanism that exalts and puts man at the center of religion. Until that happens there will not be a new Reformation, because at the heart of Reformation teaching is the central place of the worship and gratitude given to God and God alone. Soli Deo gloria, to God alone be the glory.

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Might i ask once again:

Did you Caretaker, and wildB read all that i posted?

i have read everything in this thread...

First and foremost, i believe that what i have shown is scripture and not just an opinion; and i surely do not think that either postition is silly.

As far as being on this board a long time is irrelevant, Know Him (David) does not agree with many things that i may have posted here, but i bet he can attest to my sincerety and honesty and love of truth.

i would like to pray about some of the things that has been posted so give me a day or so... [Smile]

My prayer is that as iron sharpens iron, we will all come to the truth which is Yahoshua (Jesus) our Messiah, Gk the Christ.

i dont care if "i win" or not, Yahweh God knows my heart, im not trying to prove MY opinion; i feel that i have truth, but as i said God as my witness im truly listening to every scripture and trying to compare scripture to scripture.

So bear with me my intent is not strife, butof love and a longing for truth..

bondservant
barry

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

God bless my Brothers in Christ, Barry, Dale, and Bill. Your hearts for Christ and faith in Him a true blessing.

We must be as Bereans and search the scriptures if this be so.

Acts 17:
10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

i stated [Smile]

quote:
Might i ask once again:

Did you Caretaker, and wildB read all that i posted?

i have read everything in this thread...

by not asnwering i either assume you ignored this post or did not read all the above materials

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
i stated

quote:
Might i ask once again:

Did you Caretaker, and wildB read all that i posted?

i have read everything in this thread...

by not asnwering i either assume you ignored this post or did not read all the above materials

Yes

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

ty Brother [Smile]

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

God bless you Brother Barry;

Your heart for Yeshua Ha'Mesheach and walk with Christ a true blessing to us all. On another site Bro. Pete has said it very well, "In the essentials unity and in the non-essentials grace".

Testament is the Latin word for will, as in last will and testament; it translates the Greek word diatheke, which means covenant. We use the word testament because God’s covenant, like a will, is unilateral. The term comes from 1 Corinthians 11:25, where Paul quotes Jesus as proclaiming a new covenant from God.

1 Cor. 11:
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

Luke 22:
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

We are justified ONLY through the Lord Jesus Christ, He bore our sins on Calvary and we stand before God clothed in His righteousness.

When we receive Yeshua/Jesus we become righteous ONLY because of Him.

When we receive Him He indwells us with the surety of the earnest of the Holy Spirit. If He dwells within then there will begin the production of the Fruit of the Spirit, as He moves within our hearts and lives to conform us to His image. An absence of Fruit could indicate and absence of Christ.

Eph. 1:
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Is it not the denial of Christ which places one in condemnation?

John 3:
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Can a true Believer ever deny He Who dwells within our Hearts and lives?

The true Believer is the good soil of a heart in which the Gospel seed is rooted deep.

Many say, "Lord Lord", and Christ will say, "I never knew you".

The Law of Moses which includes the Ten Commandments has been fulfilled in Christ.

The true Believer goes far beyond the Ten Commandments, and we are under a new covenant and the Fruit of the Spirit is the external evidence of the internal transformation.

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

God bless you Bro. Barry;

In doing a search on Jim Searcy I came across this web post:

quote:

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message521804/pg1

By the way, when I was with Jim Searcy in Desmoines, Iowa, at a brother Pastor Tom Carlson's fellowship, Jim Searcy told Tom Carlson privately he was to receive him, Jim Searcy, as a man of wisdom liken to Moses. Tom told him, "If I need wisdom, I'll pray and ask the Lord for it." Jim Searcy got mad and left. Well, Jim Searcy also told me the same thing about receiving him as a man of wisdom liken to Moses.

The realization that comes to me now is that he wanted tom and I to receive him as Moses the man of wisdom, first in Iowa, then he came to Cyprus Island to try to convince me that he was Moses the man of wisdom. Well, the devil knows that I and tom are to meet the real person Moses and to relate to the salvation of Israel as written in Jeremiah 23:3 to 8 and in Revelation 11:1 to 6, including Ezekiel 37:14 to 28.

Well, the devil has led Jim Searcy to come over here for that purpose. Another time he asked me how I would know Moses. I said, when he smites the River Nile and it and all the waters of Egypt turn to blood. He answered, "Oh, the devil can do that, to turn a teacup to blood he might, but not the whole of Egypt". And I left him, Jim Searcy, who was very angry.

He gave me this book he wrote, "Great Joy in Great Tribulation", and he gave a copy to Tom in Iowa and I received a copy from a sister. They all, like me, read only a small amount and could see it was written by a carnally-minded person, and we all threw it away. He, Jim Searcy got mad when I told him I had thrown it in a trash bin.

This was written by one calling himself Elijah a Prophet. It speaks of Searcy as comparing himself to Moses.

I would be extremely cautious of those self-declared latter-day prophets, and of those who place extraordinary emphasis upon the Law over Grace. It strikes a chord when one refers to the "Royal Law" in reference to the Ten Commandments, as this has such a flavor of the SDA influences and the demonic visions of an Ellen G. White.

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Yes Sir my honered Brother, im not at all a follower of Jim Searcy, i post his "thought" provoking materials now and again.

i agree with some of his material, but certainlywould not recomend it for new believers.

And i really should have taken his points of OSAS, et. el, and removed other references to his website, and email.

The latter part of your post about some of the things, Jim believes and has stated i was not aware of.

Thanks for the heads up, and i will check the links you provided.

im "LORD" willing,trying to really watch who i quote from and who i post and what links are given.

i humbly accept the reproff. [Smile]

Kindgo had mentioned one time that i should flee, run, watchout, or something to that nature about Jim Searcy....

i have a habit of using other ppls writings to make a point that i see, and or agree with; but should cautiously watch whose name is linked to it...

For Ex: i used Jeff Patton, i think is his name:
i read his entire letter and i saw a lot of truths in it, and i used it. Now if he is a heritic or not; i cannot say...ive never heard of him before.

Some people that some call a heritic; others see as a hero; or "man of God"........

ill try to be even more careful, and me heart is for truth, and im not now, nor prob. never be eloquent with words, nor do i know how to articulate them in a gramatical fashion as to be well understood...so bear with me; ill pray for God to give me more understanding, along with more of "HIS" insight and ill try to put what i see into mywords... [Smile]

More of reading, praying, checking what i write before i post; and read all of what someone else says before i answer...FOR we know that aman that answers a thing before he has heard the [or read] the WHOLE matter, is unwise.

Thankyou again my Brother
bondservant
barry

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

Brother Barry you are always a true blessing, for within your heart and life the glory of our God shines forth.

Plow on my dear Brother in Yeshua Ha'Mesheach, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on :

I think that doctrines, like these that are being examined in this thread, are at best human efforts to try to understand and to present in reasonable statements what God does with all of his creation. We give these doctrines names, often the names of the human authors who organized selected aspects of God's work and wrote the statements. These authors usually use selected passages from the biblical documents and the principles of divine inspiration to support their particular statements, but disciples (learners) of every age have commonly discussed and sought to further refine these doctrines in respect to their own understandings of God's work and the relative harmony of the accumulated doctrines in regard to God's presumed unchanging will and wisdom.

One of these basic doctrines is that God created human beings with free will. But Paul and other historic interpreters of God's action, have tried to make it clear that this initial created power to choose from a will that was free became corrupted and severely impaired by the rebellious choices of Eve and Adam to put more trust in the words of the Devil than they did in the words of God. Yet these theologians usually teach that God was and is still willing to work with his rebellious human creatures, although he considered them to be "dead" in their fallen state of relationship with him, and that this condition of deadness would be inherited by all human beings whose wills were no longer free from the powerful influences of the Devil. Most the documents of the Old Testament and the New Testament record the basic ways by which God worked with his "dead" rebels to redeem them from their sins and to bring them back into personal relationships with him.

One of the basic questions that must be handled in trying to understand God's work of redemption is this: how much will power does a "dead" rebel have to respond to a loving God who seeks to restore a broken relationship? If the rebel has absolutely no power to respond to God in any way or to cooperate with God in his work of transforming redemption, then the redeeming salvation of any rebel has become the exclusive work of God and the will of any human creature has been removed from the process. This makes the preaching of "good news" useless, because there is nothing that any individual can do to participate in God's redeeming work.

But God's ongoing work with his rebellious human creatures, as it is described in the biblical documents, doesn't seem to put human beings into that helpless state. So biblical prophets and teachers, historic theologians, many preachers and teachers, and many of us continue to try to understand and to clearly describe the particular nature and role of human will power in God's work of redemption, and this is far from easy. Perhaps only a few theologians, if any, have the precise details of God's redemptive work completely and clearly described.

I really don't think that the questions that are raised in our efforts to understand this divine process of our sovereign creator can be completely answered, even through inspired study and writing. So I try with whatever intellectual ability and will power that I have to really trust God to do his transforming work of redemption and sanctification in my life without trying to identify which theologian has this doctrine completely and correctly explained. And I'm especially grateful for God's amazing patience and grace. Thanks for this intelligent discussion of these challenging questions.

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

to anyone with ears to hear....

Was God's Law Nailed to the Cross?

NO, NO. NO A THOUSAND TIMES NO !

What was nailed to the cross?

Recently in this column, it was shown that God’s law, and the idea of being saved by faith rather than works of the law, is consistent in both the first and the new covenants. As a reminder, the new covenant states in Hebrews 8:10, “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, said the LORD; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.” It is God’s law in our hearts and mind that make us part of this new covenant.

Yet, in spite of the clear words telling us specifically that the new covenant is having these laws in our hearts and mind, many churches teach that God’s law was “nailed to the cross” in the New Testament. They use this rationale for no longer following many of God’s commands. But either the Bible is true, and we are misinterpreting the verse that talks about nailing something to the cross, or the Bible is wrong by defining the new covenant as the law. We need to study to see what really was nailed to the cross. I believe the answer is one that will thrill every sinner, which definitely includes me.

Here is what the section says: Colossians 2:12-14: (12) “Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. (13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses (14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.”

The context shows that these verses are talking about baptism, not about God’s law. Starting in verse 12, Paul talks about being buried with Him (Jesus) in baptism and risen with Him through faith. Verse 13 speaks of being dead in your sins and forgiven of all your trespasses. Verse 14 says that this baptism blots out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, nailing it to the cross.

The study notes in my “Spirit Filled Life” Bible indicate that the Greek word in the original text for "handwriting of ordinances" (cheirographon) means, "A word commonly used when a monetary obligation was acknowledged by a debtor. It means a signed confession of indebtedness, bond, or self-confessed indictment." A favorite online Bible reference tool, www.blueletterbible.org, defines this word as “a note of hand or writing in which one acknowledges that money has either been deposited with him or lent to him by another, to be returned at the appointed time.” Think of it like a mortgage or an IOU, a written record of the debt we owe for our sins. Other Bible translations also can add clarity. For example: “the record that contained the charges against us” (New Living Translation); “the record of debt that stood against us” ( English Standard Version); “having canceled out the certificate of debt” (New American Standard); and “the certificate of debt against us” (The Scriptures, which also includes the footnote: “the record of all the sins we did”).

Earlier, in verses 4 and 8, Paul refers to “any man” (most likely unbelieving Jews, or pagans) who try to beguile you, spoil you after the tradition of man, etc. He continues this thought in verses 16-17, when he warns the Colossians to let “no man” judge you about the Christian behaviors and scriptural holy days which are there to teach us (foreshadow) things to come, that only the body of Christ, defined as the church in verses 1:18 and 1:24, is fit to make these judgments. (King James says “the body is of Christ” with the word “is” in italics, meaning that it was not in the original text. The translators added it, but it confuses the meaning by being there.) This passage, as shown by the context, is simply telling us that by being baptized, we become dead to our former sins, the record of those sins have been nailed to the cross, and we shouldn’t let any man outside the church judge us for being obedient to the word of God.

To confirm any interpretation of scripture, it is always best to see if the rest of the Bible confirms or contrasts with the interpretation. What does the rest of the Bible say Jesus came to do, and about his relationship to the law? From the lips of John the Baptist in John 1:29, “Behold the Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world.” Isaiah 53:10 says that He will be “an offering for sin.” In Matthew 26:28 Jesus himself said that his blood was shed “for the remission of sins.” 1 John 1:7 says that His blood “cleanses us from all sin”, 1 John 3:5 says “he was manifested to take away our sins”, and Revelation 1:5 says he “washed us from our sins in his own blood.” There are no texts that say He came to do away with the law, because it would contradict the new covenant that the law is now to be written in our hearts. In fact, He confirms this in Matthew 5:17, “Think not that I have come to destroy the law…” John 1:1-3 tells us that He was the Word of God, with God from the beginning, and through Him all things were made. Why would He come to destroy what He made?

Jesus Christ, the Messiah, came to take away our sin, and to nail it to His cross. This is something for which every Christian should give eternal thanks. I believe that to misconstrue these verses to say that we can ignore well over half of our Bible, and therefore break any of God's commandments handed down from the beginning, is dangerous, and plays right into satan’s hand.

# # #

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? (Acts 15:10)

And as Paul said with regard to keeping the law for salvation:

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)

The theory about the New Covenant being the same as the Old is patently absurd. For as our Lord says:

"Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you." (Luke 21:20)

I think that part of the problem in this type of theology stems from the fact many Christians, and, indeed, many theologians, don't really understand what a "covenant" is. A biblical covenant is a promise made by God to us whereby God guarantees the outcome. The Old covenant */pre/*-dates the law of Moses, because it is in its essence a promise made to Abraham.

Circumcision was the seal or tangible pledge of the /acceptance/ of that promise. The essential difference between the Old promise and the New promise is that the Old looked forward to a future fulfillment through shadows, but in the New we have the promise face to face in Jesus Christ: His person in resurrection and His work in dying for our sins. Today as well the promise requires our acceptance: through faith and faithful following of Jesus Christ. But as far as the shadows which looked forward to Christ are concerned, scripture is very clear about the fact that we have to be careful how we understand them and/* how*/ we keep them, for keeping them as they did in Israel may in some cases be meaningless (i.e., the idolatry we are likely to be faced with in the near term is that of greed and covetousness: Eph.5:5; Col.3:5), and in many others fall well short of the mark. As to an even more chilling example, were we to do what the Hebrews of Paul's day were doing and continue to offer animal sacrifice, that would be wrong because it would proclaim that, in effect, Jesus' sacrifice, now a reality, was somehow ineffective. In a similar manner the ten commandments need to be approached not in ignorance of Christ and the New Testament/Covenant, but completely informed by all the wonderful truth we are blessed now to have received, things that all true believers in the past longed to know and to see (Jn.8:56; 1Pet.1:11). The ten commandments were essentially a "faithfulness pledge"; that is to say, they comprise a basic code of behavior which if adhered to will keep a person who wants to be walking with God faithfully away from some of the most dangerous pitfalls to faith by keeping holy 1) towards God 2) towards life generally 3) towards authority 4) towards others.

Heb. 8:
6: But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7: For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8: For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10: For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12: For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13: In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Heb. 9:
1: Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
2: For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3: And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4: Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
5: And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

8: The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10: Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11: But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12: Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

5. The ten commandments (tablets) are part of the first covenant that was replaced by the new covenant of Heb 8:13

* Notice that the Ten Commandments were the first abolished covenant: Heb 8:13 "When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. "Now even the first covenant had ... the TABLES OF THE COVENANT." Heb 9:1-4

Galations 3:
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galations 5:

1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

The Law of Moses was given from Sinai to the Children of Israel, and FULFILLED in Christ Jesus our Lord on Calvary, Who established a NEW COVENANT, making the Old Covenant obsolete.

The Schoolmaster to point to Christ, and we are under the Schoolmaster no longer.

The law, written in stone, required death for transgression. It did not give righteousness or salvation (Gal. 2:21). But the new covenant brings the Holy Spirit and life and righteousness. The old covenant could not cleanse the conscience, but the new covenant is written on the heart. It changes our hearts in a way that an external law cannot. The old covenant was temporary. It was glorious in its time, but its glory has faded because a greater glory is now here.

Do not attempt to place the New Wine in the old wineskin.

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/otl/otl06.htm

quote:

Although Jews and gentiles had been spiritual competitors, separated from one another, Jesus has made them one. He saves them both in the same way. How did he make them one? By breaking down "the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility" that had separated Jews and gentiles. What was the wall of division, the cause of the hostility or enmity between Jews and gentiles?

What barrier did Jesus destroy? It was "the law with its commandments and regulations." These were the laws that separated Jews from gentiles — ordinances in the law of Moses, the old covenant — ordinances that were given to Jews but were not commanded for gentiles. Jesus abolished these laws. He did not die on the cross to eliminate human rules and regulations — he died to abolish old covenant regulations. All the rules in the law of Moses concerning ritual purification and sacrifices are now obsolete. So are the civil laws and other rituals — all the laws that Jews had to keep to make them different from gentiles.

These laws separated Jews from gentiles. The Bible says that some of these laws served that very purpose, to set the Israelites apart from other peoples (Lev. 20:24). Many other laws did that, too, because God commanded the Israelites to keep certain rules that he did not command the gentiles to keep. Jewish rabbis understood that God gave many laws only to the Jews, and that gentiles could be considered righteous without keeping those particular laws.

In his death, Jesus abolished the old covenant rules that separated Jews and gentiles, the rules that caused Jews to be different. This is the way he made peace between Jew and gentile, making one people out of two (Eph. 2:15). Jesus reconciled both groups to God, making them one body by his death on the cross, "by which he put to death their hostility" (verse 16).

Jesus killed the hostility, figuratively speaking, when he was crucified. He put an end to the rules that separated Jew from gentile. Just as we have seen in Acts, Galatians and Hebrews, Jesus put an end to the old covenant, the law of Moses. The laws that were given only to the Jews came to an end. (For more on Ephesians 2, click here.)

Christ did not unite Jews and gentiles by requiring gentiles to come under the old covenant. Rather, he united them by removing the old covenant and forgiving the sins of both. No one has to keep those obsolete laws. Jews do not have to keep the laws that divided them from gentiles. Peter was able to live like a gentile (Gal. 2:14). Paul could, too, because he was not under the Torah (1 Cor. 9:20-21). Christians are not under the law of Moses.

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

Drew, you know I love and respect you but Drew are you telling me you because you are born again, you can ...not love Yahweh with all your heart....you can kill, steal, commit adultery, lie ect. ...is there nothing written on your heart?

now I know false teachers like Charles Stanley teach after you are saved ...you can sin to your hearts content and still have eternal life .... but I assure you and the entire world , he will answer to Almighty for sending men and women to hell with that lie!

You nor Wlldb have answered what happens when Yahweh circumcises your heart... please tell me,according to the scriptures what does the circumcision of your heart do if it it not cause you to love what Yahweh loves ..."His Law"?

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Drew, you know I love and respect you but Drew are you telling me you because you are born again, you can ...not love Yahweh with all your heart....you can kill, steal, commit adultery, lie ect. ...is there nothing written on your heart?

now I know false teachers like Charles Stanley teach after you are saved ...you can sin to your hearts content and still have eternal life .... but I assure you and the entire world , he will answer to Almighty for sending men and women to hell with that lie!

You nor Wlldb have answered what happens when Yahweh circumcises your heart... please tell me,according to the scriptures what does the circumcision of your heart do if it it not cause you to love what Yahweh loves ..."His Law"?

God bless you Brother Dale, your heart for Yeshua and walk with Him is a true blessing.

It is not the Mosaic Ordinances with which our heart is circumcised, but with the presence of YHWH through His Holy Spirit.

The real law — allegiance to God — is eternally valid; the physical administration of it has changed. We live in a different age, needing a different administration.

God's law is to be written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit. This does not mean the physical details regulating specifics of worship practices, but it means the intent behind those regulations, especially faith and love and other fruits of the Spirit.

God's law did not originate with Moses — since sin existed before Moses and sin does not exist without law, law existed before Moses (Romans 5:12-14). God's law existed, and the people transgressed it. God's law does not depend on its Mosaic administration. There is a law behind the law of Moses. The Mosaic administration was a valid expression of God's holy, spiritual, righteous law, and it was perfectly appropriate for its situation, but it is not appropriate after the death of Christ and the coming of the Holy Spirit.

In fact, to impose or to attempt to combine the Mosaic administration into Christian faith and practice can cause many problems. New wine makes old wineskins burst (Matthew 9:17). The old covenant is obsolete. However, many of the Mosaic rules, especially those concerning the way we should treat other people, are still valid applications of the spiritual purpose. Jesus explained them in the Sermon on the Mount, for example.3 But many other laws of Moses, especially those concerning worship, are not valid practices because we have been given the spiritual fulfillment that those rites only symbolized. Jesus criticized the Pharisees for paying too much attention to those rules and not enough on human relationships (e.g., Matthew 23; Mark 7:11-13).

God's spiritual purposes, which were reflected in the Mosaic Covenant are still valid, ie. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all of thy heart, mind and soul, and thou shalt love thy neighbor as you would yourself. The Mosaic Covenant was finished, the Law of Moses fulfilled at Calvary. God's Truth is Eternal, and circumcised upon our hearts under the Covenant with Father Abraham.

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/otl/default.htm

quote:

“You also died to the law through the body of Christ.... By dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code” (Rom. 7:4, 6).

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

thank you for your response....it is walking by the Spirit... I have never suggested anything different!

quote:
This does not mean the physical details regulating specifics of worship practices,

I have always maintained it is all about the heart not the head!

Yahshua said it best, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38This is the first and great commandment.

39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

more later on Once Saved Always Saved lie

Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by WildB:

quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
OSAS (Once saved always saved) along with [FALSE] {ETERNAL SECURITY} is to me the most evil of false doctrines in the "churchianity" world today.

Your opinion is not Biblical. Once you are SEALED you cannot get UN-SEALED! PERIOD!

Its so simple its silly that there are those that would actively peruse the sowing of weed seed in Gods garden.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.,
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Main Entry: 4seal
Function: transitive verb
Date: 14th century
1
a : to confirm or make secure by or as if by a seal
b : to solemnize for eternity
a : to set or affix an authenticating seal to; also : authenticate, ratify
b : to mark with a stamp or seal usually as an evidence of standard exactness, legal size, weight, or capacity, or merchantable quality
3
a : to fasten with or as if with a seal to prevent tampering
b : to close or make secure against access, leakage, or passage by a fastening or coating
c : to fix in position or close breaks in with a filling (as of plaster)
4
: to determine irrevocably or indisputably

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

A Christian’s Future Sins Are NOT Automatically Forgiven

The security-in-sin teachers are spiritually dangerous people. Besides all of the other grievous declarations they make, some have also gone so far as to say that a Christian’s future sins are already forgiven, even before they are committed. Perhaps they teach this way in an effort to safeguard their doctrine of eternal security while they continue to tickle ears. I have heard at least one state that if it was possible for a Christian to lose his salvation, it could only occur through sin. Hence, by removing (in their minds) the only danger to eternal security, they have erected an imagined indestructible shield for its protection. (Unfortunately, like many other Scriptural issues, the eternal security teachers are oblivious to the two other ways a Christian can lose his salvation besides through sin: [1] Denying Jesus through persecution and [2] Accepting a wrong plan of salvation. See chapter 12 in our 801 page book, The Believer’s Conditional Security for a detailed explanation.)

Here are two specific examples of what we are dangerously being taught from eternal security teachers Charles Stanley and David Jeremiah respectively:

No matter what you do as a child of God, you are forgiven. You say, “Murder?” Forgiven. “Stealing?” Forgiven. “Adultery?” Forgiven. “Worshiping Idols?” Forgiven.

Do you realize that when God forgives you, he forgives your past, your present and your future sin? Some people struggle with that terribly. They think that God only forgives them of all the sin they committed until they were converted. I had a lady tell me one day, she said, “You know, I know my sins were forgiven when I accepted Christ, but I’ve done a lot of other sin. How am I forgiven for that?” Well, you were already forgiven.

If you are a Christian, try to put yourself in their shoes thinking that your future sins are already forgiven before you commit them. If you accepted that premise, then your spiritual guard is not only down it is gone. You won’t ever need to guard against personal sin and its defiling abilities since you are already forgiven. This would mean you will always remain spiritually pure, just as you were the day you were saved, even if you would turn to sexual immorality, drunkenness, theft, idolatry, lying, murder, etc. You would never have to confess those sins to God that you committed after conversion, repent of them, forgive others who sinned against you, etc. to be purified, forgiven and cleansed, since you were never contaminated by any sin after conversion. In contrast, the spiritual danger of failing to do these is clear to anyone who has read through the New Testament with spiritual ears to hear and eyes to see, yet is seemingly hidden from the security-in-sin teachers themselves.

Let me cite some of the reasons why Christians reject the above deplorable teaching as taught by Charles Stanley, David Jeremiah and many others.
The Scriptural Evidence
Please notice what Jesus said to the Christians, after his infinite death on the cross for every person’s sins:

Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. (Rev 3:4)

Comment: All the other people in the church at Sardis did soil their spiritual clothes and were no longer worthy to walk with Jesus dressed in white. How did the majority, who were previously saved, get soiled? The answer is clear when you realize that sin can defile a Christian and even bring him to his spiritual death. That is why we have the following Scripture (among others):

... Do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure. (1 Tim 5:22)

Paul believed Timothy could become spiritually defiled again through sin and consequently told Timothy to keep himself pure. That would be meaningless, if Timothy would turn to sin and automatically be pre-forgiven. Paul (and others) were repeatedly teaching like this, even to the point of telling Christians they could die spiritually through sin and not inherit the kingdom of God:

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live (Rom 8:13)

but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers. (James 1:14-16)

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal 5:19-21)

At this point, I could stop this article, for it has already been proven that sin committed after conversion can defile a Christian, bring him to his spiritual death and cause him not to inherit the kingdom of God. All of that would be impossible if his future sins were already forgiven before they were committed, like these popular savage wolves in sheep’s clothing want us all to believe.

What the Bible teaches about past sins being forgiven at the point of repentance and a submissive faith in Jesus (Acts 20:21 cf. 26:20) is shown in the following Scripture:

But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. (2 Pet 1:9)

That Scripture was written about any person who had been saved, but since has forgotten he was cleansed from his past sin. Please note, a Christian at the point of salvation is cleansed from all his sins up to that moment—his past sins, according to Peter. Similarly, Paul stated below:

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins (Col 2:13)

All our sins were forgiven in a moment’s time when we got born again. If a Christian is afterwards deceived or yields to the devil’s temptations to sin, the following is given as a remedy:

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)

The Apostle John put himself in on that Scripture by using the plural pronoun we. In other words, if we don’t confess those sins to God, which are committed after conversion, then we won’t be purified from their effects. (Apparently, no person who believes what the security-in-sin teachers proclaim about this will confess his sins to God and renounce them to get purified, since he thinks they are already forgiven.)

He who conceals his sins does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy. (Prov 28:13)

There are other indications that a Christian’s future sins are not forgiven and that sin can spiritually defile a believer, even though Jesus died for all sins nearly 2000 years ago:

See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. (Heb 12:15)

Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God. (2 Cor 7:1)

Also, notice the following Scripture which shows that the Apostle Paul knew of some who wandered away from a pure heart. In other words, sin can adversely affect a pure heart. This would be impossible if their future sins were already forgiven:

The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk. (1 Tim 1:5,6)

As Christians, we are also to have a certain frame of mind, a certain type of hope that will purify:

Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure. (1 John 3:2,3)

Jesus taught openly that sin can drag any lustful person to hell:

But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. (Mat 5:28,29)

The Lord also stated the stipulation for a Christian to get his sins forgiven, that is, he must forgive others who sin against him. Such a teaching would be impossible if his future sins were all automatically forgiven even before they were committed. If that was true then there would be no conditions to get forgiven, unlike what Jesus stated:

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. (Mat 6:14,15)

Then the master called the servant in. “You wicked servant,” he said, “I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?” In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart. (Mat 18:32-35)

That is not all we read about a Christian’s sins getting forgiven. The prayer of faith can bring healing to the body, as well as forgiveness of sins:

Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. (James 5:14,15)

Another deathblow to the lie that a Christian’s future sins are already forgiven is the following passage:

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. (Heb 10:26, 27)

Clearly, Heb. 10:26,27 is referring to people who had been converted then decided to deliberately sin in a certain way. Instead of believing the ear-tickling deadly lies of our day, let’s all cleave to the message of the Bible. Among other things it will show us the following, which also would be impossible if a Christian’s future sins were already forgiven:

So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. (2 Pet 3:14)

Being found spotless, blameless and at peace with God is not automatic. Christians under grace are to put forth every effort to remain in this condition:

Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. (Luke 13:24)

Dear reader, don’t let yourself, family or friends be deceived by the eternal security teachers Scriptural distortions. Contend for the faith against their deadly teachings. Souls hang in the balance. God bless you.

Return to Evangelical Outreach
www.evangelicaloutreach.org
PO Box 265, Washington, PA 15301

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

Jude 24 declares, "To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy." God's power is able to keep the believer from falling. It is up to Him, not us, to present us before His glorious presence. Our eternal security is a result of God keeping us, not us maintaining our own salvation.

The Lord Jesus Christ proclaimed, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:28-29b). Both Jesus and the Father have us firmly grasped in their hand. Who could possibly separate us from the grip of both the Father and the Son?

Ephesians 4:30 tells us that believers are "sealed for the day of redemption." If believers did not have eternal security, the sealing could not truly be unto the day of redemption, but only to the day of sinning, apostasy, or disbelief. John 3:15-16 tells us that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If a person were to be promised eternal life, but then have it taken away, it was never "eternal" to begin with. If eternal security is not true, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error.

The most powerful argument for eternal security is Romans 8:38-39, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Our eternal security is based on God's love for those whom He has redeemed. Our eternal security is purchased by Christ, promised by the Father, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

http://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-security.html

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

Drew that is well and good but that does not address any question I ask....

We can not pick just those scriptures that prove your point of view, you must preach the whole council of God.

"Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God."--Acts xx. 26,27.

Please notice what Jesus said to the Christians, after his infinite death on the cross for every person’s sins:

Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. (Rev 3:4)

Comment: All the other people in the church at Sardis did soil their spiritual clothes and were no longer worthy to walk with Jesus dressed in white.

How did the majority, who were previously saved, get soiled?

The answer is clear when you realize that sin can defile a Christian and even bring him to his spiritual death.

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

Rev. 3:
1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The Church at Sardis is a dead church like so many today, with the majority who confess the Lord with their lips but who the Lord does not know.

They were not saved in the first place, but were going through the motions but contaminated with the world in reality.

Not as loss of salvation, but never there to begin with, save for a very few.

1 John 2:
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/etsec.html

Revelation 3:1-5 "To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."

Most of this church was composed of dead-unsaved nominal Christians, just as Jesus says "you are dead". In 1John 5:12, Jesus says, "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." Most of these Christians did not have the Son. But a few did and to those Jesus promised that he would never blot out their names from the book of life.

Also, some point out that the phrase "I will never blot out his name" implies that there are some people who do have their name written in the book of life whose name will be blotted out. But it does not say that explicitly. However some will point out Luke 10:20 "However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven." which was spoken to the disciples of whom we assume Judas was among them, but who was later condemned. Did he lose his salvation?

Besides the fact that no one had been born of God until the Spirit came at Pentecost and so the guarantees to those born of God were not effective until then, Jesus may not be telling them that their names were actually written in the book of life at that time. For example, if I said "Don't cry over spilt milk, rather cry at the lose of your brother." (Meaning the death of your brother), but in fact I'm not saying that your brother has died, but rather that if it occurs, cry over that. So Jesus may be saying "rejoice over your names being written in the book of life", not that they had yet been, and not over something like demons being subject to you.

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/sayings.cfm#once

quote:

First of all, slogans like "Once Saved, Always Saved" are always regrettable because they polarize an issue, causing them to be touted or denounced vehemently not on the basis of truth as truth is, but only as it is represented in the stark world of sloganeering.

Take for instance, the present slogan—Once Saved, Always Saved. This is based upon the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints, but skews the doctrine by only representing a portion of its teaching. In fact, the slogan doesn't give us enough information to properly judge its merits. As well, the slogan is tautological in its simplicity, so that in being inherently true on its face, it is unable to say anything of value.

The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints maintains that those who overcome the world—those who abide in Christ—until they die and are taken up to heaven are the saved. They are the ones who persevere. Any who do not persevere simply were not saved for they did not experience the saving grace of God, were not conformed to the image of Christ, and were not forgiven of their sins. Therefore, it stands to reason that they as well never possessed eternal life—for eternal life is eternal.

The plain fact is that Scripture encourages believers to work in righteousness as they reflect the glory of their Lord. And Scripture offers security for those who have this work of grace alive in them. Those who claim belief but do not live righteously are persuaded to fear for their place and are invited to pursue God with all their hearts, minds, and souls that they might rest in the security of God's grace.

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

Rev. 3:

quote:
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die:

if they had not been once alive, they would not be about to die if they do not repent...

quote:
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent.

they had received and heard,

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

‘…nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor. If one dear saint of God had perished, so might all; and then there is no gospel promise true, but the Bible is a lie, and there is nothing in it worth my acceptance… If I did not believe the doctrine of the final perseverance of the saints, I think I should be of all men the most miserable, because I should lack any ground of comfort.’ Charles Spurgeon.

Romans 8:33 ‘Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.’

For a moment, let’s say you can lose your salvation. If this were true then obviously God would be the only one who could pass that decree. He is the judge of mankind. He is the one who declared you to be righteous in his sight so therefore he is the only one who could now declare you to be ‘lost’ again. Now do you really think that God is going to bring a charge against his elect? Of course not! He justified them knowing everything that they would ever do. Verse 33 states that God the Father will not do this. Will Jesus Christ bring a charge against a believer? Of course not! He died for them and now lives to intercede for them. Their salvation is secure because it is in Gods hands, not mans.

Jesus Plus Nothing

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

True children of God are, according to the Scriptures, forever saved and eternally secure because:

They are born again of incorruptible seed which yields the fruit of everlasting life (l Peter 1:23).

They stand before God clothed in the imputed (credited) righteousness of Christ, and not in their own (2 Corinthians 5:21; Romans 5:19-21).

His sheep have been given eternal life—they shall never perish (John 10:28).

Their eternal lives are forever hid with Christ in God (Colossians 3:1-3).

They are already seated in the heavenlies in Christ (Ephesians 1:3; 2:6).

The penalty for all their sin has been forever settled through the perfect and finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 4:23-5:2; 5:6-9).

Loss of reward at the Judgment Seat of Christ is certain for the careless Christians, but not loss of salvation (l Corinthians 3:10-15).

God faithfully chastens all of His children, even to the point of taking home those who refuse their Heavenly Father's correction (Hebrews 12:6-11; 1 Corinthians 5:1-5; 11:28-32).

They have already been delivered from the wrath to come (1 Thessalonians 1:9,10; 5:8-10).

They are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8:23).

The Lord knoweth them that are His; false professors will be revealed as such at the White Throne Judgment (2 Timothy 2:19; Revelation 20 ~ 15; Matthew 7:21-23).

God is the one Who has begun the good work in the believer, and He has promised to perform it until the day of Jesus Christ; they are to "work out," not "work for "their salvation (Philippians 1:6; 2:12,13).

They are already living stones in the spiritual building of God of which Christ Himself is the Chief Cornerstone (l Peter 2:5; Ephesians 2:20-22).

They are members of the Body of Christ, each with a peculiar function and without each one, the Body would not be complete (l Corinthians 12:12-27).

They are kept by the power of God, through faith, not through the efforts or the works of the one who is saved. (l Peter 1:5).

Their incorruptible, everlasting inheritance is reserved for them by God (l Peter l:l-4).

They are God the Father's irrevocable gift to God the Son (John 17:6,7).

Backsliding is a sin, but the blood of Jesus Christ, God's Son, cleanses us from all sin (l John 1:7-9).

He is able to save them to the uttermost because Christ "ever liveth to make intercession for them" (Hebrews 7:25).

They are upon trusting Christ made "accepted in the Beloved" (Ephesians 1:6).

Nothing can separate them from the love of Christ (Romans 8:38-39).

By one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified (Hebrews 10:10-14).

They cannot be unborn (John 3:6-8).

Christ dwelleth in them for ever (2 John 2).

No man can pluck the Christian out of His Father's hand, and that necessarily includes the believer himself (John 10:29).

All who are justified are finally glorified—none are lost along the way (Romans 8:28-30).

In their flesh dwelleth no good thing; they are saved by grace (undeserved favor) and not by their own works (Ephesians 2:8, 9).

The gifts and calling of God are without repentance; God will never annul His promise or cast out those who have come unto Him through Christ (Romans 11:29; John 6:37;17:2).

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Rev. 3:

quote:
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die:
if they had not been once alive, they would not be about to die if they do not repent...

quote:
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent.
they had received and heard,

Revelation 3:1-5 "To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."

becauseHElives, there are a lot of people in church who say and do all the right things, but they have not been regenerated. Being regenerated, or born again, is what matters.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Drew that is well and good but that does not address any question I ask....

We can not pick just those scriptures that prove your point of view, you must preach the whole council of God.

"Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God."--Acts xx. 26,27.

Please notice what Jesus said to the Christians, after his infinite death on the cross for every person’s sins:

Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. (Rev 3:4)

Comment: All the other people in the church at Sardis did soil their spiritual clothes and were no longer worthy to walk with Jesus dressed in white.

How did the majority, who were previously saved, get soiled?

The answer is clear when you realize that sin can defile a Christian and even bring him to his spiritual death.

Wow! I never knew any one that preached the whole counsel of God?

Well I guess I can stop Studying to shew myself approved unto God and become a sloth that should be ashamed for rightly dividing the word of truth.

NOT!

Lets see so your saying that God's counsel is that man has the authority to unseal what God has sealed?

Lets read what the Bible has to say about Gods counsel concerning seals!

Revelation 5
1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

and now lets reread Ephesians 1

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

God bless each of you so very much. Each of you, Dale, Barry, Betty, Bill, and Carol are such precious Brethren, Brothers and Sisters in Christ, and when I enter the forum and see your names up in the header, it fills my heart with joy.

I personally learned a great deal in this thread, and I am so thankful to Dale and Barry in regards to the Law.

To discover a new and deeper truth from the Word is such a thrill for me, and each of you are so very gifted and a blessing.

For myself I often hear the voice of Sgt. Joe Friday from the old television show, when he would say, "Just the facts, Maam". I will try to avoid the personal and just examine the facts. I will try to just keep it clinical.

We need to be Berean and when examining teaching/teachers/doctrines/theology, we must search out the scriptures if this be so.

I will strive to follow the motto, "in essentials unity, and in the non-essentials grace".

We may have to agree to disagree in regards to the eternal security of the Saints until we can kneel at the Master's Feet and ask Him in person.

The critical the overriding priority is to bring each precious soul to the Master's Feet, and leave their security in His nail scarred Hands.

God bless you my precious Brethren.

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

From my perspective I find a dramatic difference between the Brethren who have truly placed their faith and trust in Christ Jesus our Lord, and the rampant "easy-believeism" where in a moment of emotion one repeats a sinners prayer, and there little or no difference within the heart and life.

We are to be fruit inspectors, and each of us should daily inspect our own fruit, to seek an ever closer walk with Him. Those whose fruit is of the world should be deeply concerned about whether the Lord knows them.

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Your last post tis so true..."fruit inspectors" seems to be easier for foklks to accept than to "judge"..they miss Matthew 7 's intent...

Still pondering many satements made above...but im reading everything and praying [Smile]

bondservant
barry

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

quote:
We may have to agree to disagree in regards to the eternal security of the Saints until we can kneel at the Master's Feet and ask Him in person.

The critical the overriding priority is to bring each precious soul to the Master's Feet, and leave their security in His nail scarred Hands.

God bless you my precious Brethren.

the only sad thing about agreeing to disagree about this issue is many souls will be lost because of preachers that continue to tell people they are secure in sin .

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:

quote:
We may have to agree to disagree in regards to the eternal security of the Saints until we can kneel at the Master's Feet and ask Him in person.

The critical the overriding priority is to bring each precious soul to the Master's Feet, and leave their security in His nail scarred Hands.

God bless you my precious Brethren.

the only sad thing about agreeing to disagree about this issue is many souls will be lost because of preachers that continue to tell people they are secure in sin .

I know Bro. Dale.

If one has confessed Christ, and believes in his heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, BUT the persons heart is producing worldly fruit, and he is more often the same as he was before confessing Christ, that person better get down on their knees and truly open up their heart to Jesus.

It is the very presence of the Lord within which produces spiritual fruit, and if the fruit is absent then the individual's salvation is in question.

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Ephesians 4
1 I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beseech you to walk worthily of the calling wherewith ye were called,

2 with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

3 giving diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;

5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all.

7 But unto each one of us was the grace given according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive, And gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now this, He ascended, what is it but that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:

13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;

15 but speaking truth in love, we may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, even Christ;

16 from whom all the body fitly framed and knit together through that which every joint supplieth, according to the working in due measure of each several part, maketh the increase of the body unto the building up of itself in love.

17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye no longer walk as the Gentiles also walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18 being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardening of their heart;

19 who being past feeling gave themselves up to lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But ye did not so learn Christ;

21 if so be that ye heard him, and were taught in him, even as truth is in Jesus:

22 that ye put away, as concerning your former manner of life, the old man, that waxeth corrupt after the lusts of deceit;

23 and that ye be renewed in the spirit of your mind,

24 and put on the new man, that after God hath been created in righteousness and holiness of truth.

25 Wherefore, putting away falsehood, speak ye truth each one with his neighbor: for we are members one of another.

26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

27 neither give place to the devil.

28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labor, working with his hands the thing that is good, that he may have whereof to give to him that hath need.

29 Let no corrupt speech proceed out of your mouth, but such as is good for edifying as the need may be, that it may give grace to them that hear.

30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, in whom ye were sealed unto the day of redemption.

31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and railing, be put away from you, with all malice:

32 and be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving each other, even as God also in Christ forgave you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Passage Ephesians 5 :

Ephesians 5
1 Be ye therefore imitators of God, as beloved children;

2 and walk in love, even as Christ also loved you, and gave himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for an odor of a sweet smell.

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as becometh saints;

4 nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, or jesting, which are not befitting: but rather giving of thanks.

5 For this ye know of a surety, that no fornicator, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

6 Let no man deceive you with empty words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the sons of disobedience.

7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them;

8 For ye were once darkness, but are now light in the Lord: walk as children of light

9 (for the fruit of the light is in all goodness and righteousness and truth),

10 proving what is well-pleasing unto the Lord;

11 and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather even reprove them;

12 for the things which are done by them in secret it is a shame even to speak of.

13 But all things when they are reproved are made manifest by the light: for everything that is made manifest is light.

14 Wherefore he saith, Awake, thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall shine upon thee.

15 Look therefore carefully how ye walk, not as unwise, but as wise;

16 redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

17 Wherefore be ye not foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.

18 And be not drunken with wine, wherein is riot, but be filled with the Spirit;

19 speaking one to another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;

20 giving thanks always for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father;

21 subjecting yourselves one to another in the fear of Christ.

22 Wives, be in subjection unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, and Christ also is the head of the church, being himself the saviour of the body.

24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives also be to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself up for it;

26 that he might sanctify it, having cleansed it by the washing of water with the word,

27 that he might present the church to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28 Even so ought husbands also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his own wife loveth himself:

29 for no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as Christ also the church;

30 because we are members of his body.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh.

32 This mystery is great: but I speak in regard of Christ and of the church.

33 Nevertheless do ye also severally love each one his own wife even as himself; and let the wife see that she fear her husband.

American Standard Version (ASV)
Copyright © 1901 by Public Domain

please Note:
These "saved" folks Paul is talking with, he tells: Not to let "fornication", etc..be named amoung them. For if they do not put off "those" things..the WRATH of God will come upon them just like the "children of disobedience"

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as becometh saints;

4 nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, or jesting, which are not befitting: but rather giving of thanks.

5 For this ye know of a surety, that no fornicator, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

6 Let no man deceive you with empty words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the sons of disobedience.

7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them;

8 For ye were once darkness, but are now light in the Lord: walk as children of light

PLEASE NOTE: Paul warns us not to let anyone decieve us with vain words, empty words, LIES!!!!! If one who lives that kind of life will be CUT DOWN, and recieve God's WRATH!

The BIBLE is FULL; i tell you FULL; of scripture to denounce the wickedness, and vile lies of OSAS like it is taught today! John 15; ABIDING in the vine, YOU HAVE life if you continually abide in the vine!

John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit.

3 Already ye are clean because of the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; so neither can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatsoever ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; and so shall ye be my disciples.

9 Even as the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you: abide ye in my love.

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

[B2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit.
][/B]

Yahoshua (Jesus) states: Every branch in HIM, note they are IN HIM; that bears no fruit (good fruit) that branch is taken away [from HIM].

This appears to my my brother are those that have received the LORD and have not followed him.

Now note latter in the text:

Note in verse: 6

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

These NEVER were in HIM...and are cast forth as a [branch] and thrown into the fire:

Am i that far off; or can you see my reasoning here?

The bible screams to me that OSAS is a LIE; walk carefully brothers and sisters, be cercumspect, watch ourselves, walk humble, showing mercy and love to all! Does it not?

NO ONE can pluck us out of HIS hand...No devil, no man, (or woman), no principality nor anything else...Period....IN this respect i am eternally secure in HIM my saviour.......

BUT oh my precious Brother Drew, if i let sin back in my members, if i turn my head toward those things in which i have been delivered::::

and do not shake my self (IN HIM) and turn from that old carnal nature that haunts me till i be with Christ....i see i will take a part in the lake of fire Brother!

Look here at what precious Brother James had to say:

James 5
1 Come now, ye rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you.

2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten.

3 Your gold and your silver are rusted; and their rust shall be for a testimony against you, and shall eat your flesh as fire. Ye have laid up your treasure in the last days.

4 Behold, the hire of the laborers who mowed your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth out: and the cries of them that reaped have entered into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth.

5 Ye have lived delicately on the earth, and taken your pleasure; ye have nourished your hearts in a day of slaughter.

6 Ye have condemned, ye have killed the righteous one; he doth not resist you.

7 Be patient therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient over it, until it receive the early and latter rain.

8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

9 Murmur not, brethren, one against another, that ye be not judged: behold, the judge standeth before the doors.

10 Take, brethren, for an example of suffering and of patience, the prophets who spake in the name of the Lord.

11 Behold, we call them blessed that endured: ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord, how that the Lord is full of pity, and merciful.

12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by the heaven, nor by the earth, nor by any other oath: but let your yea be yea, and your nay, nay; that ye fall not under judgment.

13 Is any among you suffering? Let him pray. Is any cheerful? Let him sing praise.

14 Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

15 and the prayer of faith shall save him that is sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, it shall be forgiven him.

16 Confess therefore your sins one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The supplication of a righteous man availeth much in its working.

17 Elijah was a man of like passions with us, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain; and it rained not on the earth for three years and six months.

18 And he prayed again; and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

19 My brethren, if any among you err from the truth, and one convert him;

20 let him know, that he who converteth a sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.

Help me o Lord, for my words are inadiquite, i cannot express what is in my heart father....

Please honered sir Note: 19, 20

19 My brethren, if any among you err from the truth, and one convert him;

20 let him know, that he who converteth a sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.

Save a soul from death Brother...{soul} from[death]

Father help us; if im wrong...im just to Strict, hard, perhaps even Pharaseical (sp)

But if the OSAS postion as its taught (Charles Stanley et, el.); Whoa unto them that teach such, and decieve many ... [Frown]

Like i say, im not a spokesman, nor any thing special, nor by any means a leader..........just a guy with 4 children and a wife, want to go to heaven, please the LORD and drag everyone with me to heavean i can...

bondservant Love
barry

(gotta go to work)

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:

But if the OSAS postion as its taught (Charles Stanley et, el.); Whoa unto them that teach such, and decieve many ...

Like i say, im not a spokesman, nor any thing special, nor by any means a leader..........just a guy with 4 children and a wife, want to go to heaven, please the LORD and drag everyone with me to heavean i can...

bondservant Love
barry

(gotta go to work)

WOW!

So Please do tell the baseball fans where Paul instructs, teaches, admonishes, a CHILD OF GOD how, when and where to UN SEAL what GOD HAS SEALED!

You and the rest that hold this opinion are GREATLY MISLEAD!

Your mix and match of scrip is a very great sadness.

Please EXPLAIN, in your sillyness what PAUL is teaching!

Ephesians, Chapter 1, 13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians, Chapter 4, 30: And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Once Sealed Always Sealed until GOD REDEEMS is what it reads to me by the POWER and GRACE of our LORD.

PLEASE STOP BUMPING THIS POST TO THE TOP!

You are wrong with your interpretation.

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

You stated and then ask:

quote:
WOW!

So Please do tell the baseball fans where Paul instructs, teaches, admonishes, a CHILD OF GOD how, when and where to UN SEAL what GOD HAS SEALED!

You and the rest that hold this opinion are GREATLY MISLEAD!

Your mix and match of scrip is a very great sadness.

Please EXPLAIN, in your sillyness what PAUL is teaching!

Ephesians, Chapter 1, 13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians, Chapter 4, 30: And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Once Sealed Always Sealed until GOD REDEEMS is what it reads to me by the POWER and GRACE of our LORD.

PLEASE STOP BUMPING THIS POST TO THE TOP!

You are wrong with your interpretation.

--------------------
That is all.....

As far as instruction on what Paul is teaching i have given NUMEROUS scripture in response to what Paul is teaching.

i apologize if i come off as silly. It is not my intention to appear silly. This is a matter of grave purpose and of the utmost importance to not only me, but many folks around the world.

As far as "bumping" the subject; i have carefully answered any and all posts as best as i could.

Your above posts ask me to explain scriptures and at the same time ask me not to "bump" the post. i dont know how i can accomadate both sir, but i will answer as best i can.

As far as Eph 1:13 and Eph 4:30

Does not the below scriptures teach us that we can cast off this seal Brother?

25 Wherefore, putting away falsehood, speak ye truth each one with his neighbor: for we are members one of another.

26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

27 neither give place to the devil.

28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labor, working with his hands the thing that is good, that he may have whereof to give to him that hath need.

29 Let no corrupt speech proceed out of your mouth, but such as is good for edifying as the need may be, that it may give grace to them that hear.

30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, in whom ye were sealed unto the day of redemption.

31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and railing, be put away from you, with all malice:

32 and be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving each other, even as God also in Christ forgave you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Passage Ephesians 5 :

Ephesians 5
1 Be ye therefore imitators of God, as beloved children;

2 and walk in love, even as Christ also loved you, and gave himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for an odor of a sweet smell.

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as becometh saints;

4 nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, or jesting, which are not befitting: but rather giving of thanks.

5 For this ye know of a surety, that no fornicator, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

6 Let no man deceive you with empty words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the sons of disobedience.

7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them;

Vs 5 Paul is talking about [and to] the "saved" folks Brother Bill.

vs 6 is stating let "NO MAN" deceive us with "VAIN" words: If a man starts doing those things that the unbelievers are doing he will be
vs 7 "PARTAKERS with them"

Partaking of what vs 6 "THE WRATH OF GOD" Brother

What is that? "The wrath of God"

Brother Bill "wildB" do you actually read the words that i post. Do you not read the scripture verses and pray about this matter?

No sir not in sillyness; but in true depth of heart do i carefully and prayfully consider what i type. i will be held accountable for every word i type and the intent of my heart when i post Sir.

bondservant
barry

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

A child of God can sin unto a early judgmental "physical" death, but he cannot un-seal what God has sealed... period! Once you are SEALED with the SPIRIT you are SEALED UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION!

Please learn how to rightfully divide the Word..

Your mixing and matching of text is opinion driven and I personally won't waste my time trying to guide you out of that swamp you are trying to bring the other unlearned into.

As for me and my house we will continue to have faith in the promises of God.

And God promised that HE WILL SEAL YOU UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.

No amount of your text twisting will change that.

The JUST shall live by FAITH.

Faith in what?

FAITH in the Promises of GOD>

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

i appreciate yor time WildB, but you never answered any scriptures i posted. i dont think im twisting scriptures. They seem plain to me but i will take under advisement what you have stated.
May YaHWeH God bless you Brother.

bondservant
barry

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

Philippians, Chapter 1, 6: Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Posted by Sha'ul (Member # 8294) on :

Hebrews 10:26-27 clearly indicate that we can lose salvation.(And if Charles Stanley truly said that if a believer became an unbeliever that his salvation is still safe, then he was a blasphemer of the word.) How dare any of us to cheapen Messiah's death by making such abomidable statements as once saved always saved, that's one of the biggest false doctrines of satan being taught. Yet Jesus says in many ways, narrow is the road to heaven, the just shall scarcely enter into heaven, not everyone that cries Lord shall enter into to heaven, etc. Jesus would call people who teach this garbage vipers, and your father the devil is a liar looking to deceive many. I know some one is saying, you're not showing the love of Jesus right now. I love you but I'm sick of people twisting God's word around so they can feel good about themself. Matthew 10:34-35 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword." 35 "For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law." 36 "and a man's enemies will be those of his own household." That tells me Jesus looks for those who will actually go by His word and keep His commandments, 1stJohn 2:4 "He who says, I know Him, and does not keep His commandments, IS a LIAR, and the TRUTH is not in him." That IS the final word PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by HUNTER (Member # 8284) on :

NICE TOPIC,
ALL I KNOW IS THAT SINNERS HAVE NO PART IN GOD'S KINGDOM,WHEN A BELIEVER SINS, HE/SHE IS REGARDED AS A SINNER BEFORE GOD AND IS NOT QUALIFYING FOR ENTRY INTO GOD'S KINGDOM

CHECK EZEKIEL 33V11-14
THANKS
HUNTER

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

"These things I have written to you who believe in the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life."(1 John 5:13).

Notice that the Apostle says you now have eternal life. We don't get eternal life after we die... we have it right now, when we believe.

Now, let's follow this idea to its logical conclusion. If we know we have eternal life when we believe in Jesus, how long does eternal life last? Can you have eternal life for a year? A week? A day? If words mean anything at all, then eternal life must be eternal. It must last forever. Eternal life by definition cannot be lost.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sha'ul:
Hebrews 10:26-27 clearly indicate that we can lose salvation.(And if Charles Stanley truly said that if a believer became an unbeliever that his salvation is still safe, then he was a blasphemer of the word.) How dare any of us to cheapen Messiah's death by making such abomidable statements as once saved always saved, that's one of the biggest false doctrines of satan being taught. Yet Jesus says in many ways, narrow is the road to heaven, the just shall scarcely enter into heaven, not everyone that cries Lord shall enter into to heaven, etc. Jesus would call people who teach this garbage vipers, and your father the devil is a liar looking to deceive many. I know some one is saying, you're not showing the love of Jesus right now. I love you but I'm sick of people twisting God's word around so they can feel good about themself. Matthew 10:34-35 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword." 35 "For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law." 36 "and a man's enemies will be those of his own household." That tells me Jesus looks for those who will actually go by His word and keep His commandments, 1stJohn 2:4 "He who says, I know Him, and does not keep His commandments, IS a LIAR, and the TRUTH is not in him." That IS the final word PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hebrews 10:23-29

Introduction

Hebrews chapter 10 is in many cases a battlefield for the believers. You choose your side and prepare to battle. Someone gives you your ammunition ahead of time so that you don’t have to think much on your own or consider all of the options.

As you are standing on your interpretation someone from the other side fires a shot and puts a hole in your doctrine. What to do now? Do you throw out everything? Probably not….many times it is God himself firing a shot to help you get Bible Doctrine instead of yours. In this study we will TRY to look at this openly.

If salvation can be lost then it was never based on a finished work. Jesus Christ said “It is Finished”. If your salvation is not finished then it is not based on the redeeming work of Christ.

The book of Hebrews was written by Paul and if he wrote in Hebrews that you could lose your salvation then he has brought a curse on himself (Galatians1:9), because he writes all through his epistles about eternal life.

The verses state that if a willful sin is committed by these people that there is no more sacrifice for sins. If this is a saved person then it sounds like the wilfull sins will not be paid for and will be accounted for at the Judgment Seat of Christ. No forgiveness is available between here and there.

Sounds like in verse 29 that this person was sanctified and now they are in danger of judgment.
before we get into the passage let us look at several introductory remarks.

Who Was It Written To

The title of the book says “The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews”. Hebrews1:1 talks about God speaking to the fathers by the prophets, who had fathers and prophets? Hebrews chapter 3 spends time dealing with the fact that Christ is better than Moses. Hebrews chapter 7 talks about the fact that Christ was of a better priestly line than the Levites. Chapters 8 and 9 of Hebrews deal with a better covenant. Hebrews chapter 11 deals with the faith of people who are all a part of the history of Israel.

from the evidence above, we would have to say that this book was written to the Jewish people. This does not mean that we should discard the book of Hebrews or any other Jewish epistles. The book is not written to us, but it is written for us (2 Timothy 3:16).

What Was the Purpose of the Letter?

The book of Hebrews contains the word “better” thirteen times. Christ is better than the angels (Hebrews 1:4), he brought in a better hope than the law (Hebrews 7:19), he was made surety of a better testament (Hebrews 7:22), he is the mediator of a better covenant (Hebrews 8:6), and he was a better sacrifice (Hebrews 9:23).

The book of Hebrews was written to the Jewish people in order to prove that Jesus Christ was “better” than Judaism.

The Time

In order to rightly divide the word of God, we must consider several things. When was the book written, who was it written to, and what does the passage mean to the people to whom it was written? We have already discussed who the book was written to, but let us now look at when it was written.

The book of Hebrews was written nearly 30 years after the death of Christ. The temple was still standing and in operation (Hebrews 13:10-11). Jewish people were persecuted when they accepted Christ (Hebrews 10:32), for many Jews were still zealous over the law (Acts 21:20). Many Jewish people were still living under the banner of Judaism and to accept Christ was to reject Judaism.

The Passage

Now we will look at the question, “what does the passage mean to the people to whom it was written?”

Verse 23

In verse 23, the Apostle Paul says, “Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)”. First notice the word “profession”. A profession is not always true (Romans 1:22). Salvation is not based on our profession, but rather on a belief with the heart and confession of the mouth (Romans 10:9-10). Confession is agreeing with God, for example, when you confess your sins you are agreeing with God against your sins. The Apostle Paul warns the Hebrews not to waver from their profession.

Verses 24-25

These verses were written to exhort the Hebrews to meet together for worship and provoke one another to good works. The early church met often, and one reason was probably to strengthen and encourage each other in times of persecution.

Verses 26-27

Here we have one of the favorite verses of the Armenians, but remember the context of the book of Hebrews. Paul writes, “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”

Notice three things about this passage.

The sin was done on purpose (willfully). One point to make here is that if this is loss of salvation then we’ve all lost it. You say well I haven’t murdered anyone or committed adultery, but that is not what the verse says. The verse says willful sin. That is anything done knowingly that was unrighteous. Have you lied lately? Probably just a white lie….Have you not done something this week that you knew you should have done (James 4:17)
This person has received the knowledge of the truth.
If this proves that these people were saved then we have some problems.
Were all of the religious leaders saved? According to John 3:2 they knew that Jesus came from God. They had received the knowledge of the truth, but they didn’t all get saved.
The devils time and time again called Jesus the Son of God. Were they saved? No, but they sure did have knowledge of the truth.
So we see that knowledge of the truth in itself merits nothing, but faith in a person is what receives salvation.
After this sin there is no more sacrifice for sin. Keep in mind this is written to the Jewish people. What sin is it when done on purpose, allows no more sacrifice for sins?
Let us look at a scenario. A Jewish boy is born about the time of Christ’s death. He was raised to go to Jerusalem three times a year to appear before the Lord (Exodus 23:14,17; Deuteronomy 16:16). He went through all of the ceremonies and went to the schools of the Hebrews. He was taught to look for the coming of the Messiah, that He would come as a King to deliver His people. Then at about the age of 30, this young man hears a message preached that Jesus Christ was the Messiah and that He died for the sins of the whole world. This young man learns more and more about the life of Christ, and begins to compare it with the law and the prophets. God opens his eyes to the fact that Christ was in fact the Messiah and that he must receive Christ by faith. Up to this point he like the apostle Paul has been zealous for God in the law, but now he has “received the knowledge of the truth”. If he receives Christ, then he will be persecuted greatly and his family will probably have a funeral for him and count him as dead. The fear of persecution drives him to “wilfully” reject Christ and return to Judaism. God says to this young man, “there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins”. A spotless lamb or any other sacrifice will no longer hold off the wrath of God, the young man has seen God’s sacrifice. This young man will die and face judgment and fiery indignation, because he rejects God’s sacrifice.

Rejecting Christ is the only sin in this age that will send a man to hell.

Verses 28-29

In verses 28 and 29 Paul writes, “He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” Under the law, the punishment of sin against the commandments in many cases meant death. All it took was the witness of two or three.

According to Hebrews, God hath in these last days spoken unto us by His son. God has three witnesses (1 John 5:7-8). The “sorer punishment” will be poured out on those who “wilfully” reject the Son of God.

Notice in verse 28 that this person has “trodden under foot” the Son of God. When Moses told the children of Israel to put the blood on the side posts and lintel, he said nothing of putting the blood on the floor. In a sense those people were spared by going into the house through or under the blood. To be saved we must go through or under the blood, but this man has lowered the blood and has “trodden under foot”.

Notice next the phrase “wherewith he was sanctified”. The word “sanctified” means to be set apart in holiness. If the word “sanctified” simply meant salvation, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that just do not line up with scripture. Remember that the idea of Hebrews is that Jesus Christ is better. Some would say that the person sanctified is the same person who has counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing, but look again. Jesus Christ’s blood sanctified himself. The blood set Him apart from bulls, goats, and all other blood either before or after.

Next notice the phrase “despite unto the Spirit of grace.” What this person has done has insulted the spirit of grace. We are saved by grace, and when someone turns from the free offer of salvation to Judaism or any other religion it is a disgrace to the spirit of grace.

Conclusion

In closing we will add evidence that Paul is not talking about the believers backsliding and losing their salvation. In verse 39 Paul says, “But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.” Paul says I’m not talking about us because we have believed to the saving of our soul. These difficult verses when taken in context make more sense and prove once again that the book of Hebrews is about the fact that Jesus Christ is better.

(Forwarded from Ray, Andrew)

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

quote:
Originally posted by HUNTER:
NICE TOPIC,
ALL I KNOW IS THAT SINNERS HAVE NO PART IN GOD'S KINGDOM,WHEN A BELIEVER SINS, HE/SHE IS REGARDED AS A SINNER BEFORE GOD AND IS NOT QUALIFYING FOR ENTRY INTO GOD'S KINGDOM

CHECK EZEKIEL 33V11-14
THANKS
HUNTER

There is no such thing as sinless perfection, except for our Lord Jesus Christ.

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”—1 John 1:8.

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Brother Bill i borrowed this from The below mentioned pastor to help show how is see Hebrews:

Read all dear honered Brother and We shall take a deep look into theheart of this matter.

HEBREWS:

To Be or Not To Be

HYPOTHETICAL

(By Pastor D. L. Hartman)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The book of Hebrews is unique or unusual in two distinct ways. One difference is that it is the only book in the New Testament on which the author did not sign his name. This leads to a great deal of speculation within the Christian community. The second is difference is that it plays a critical roll in the debate over the doctrine of Eternal Security.

As it regards the authorship let me share this anecdote. Sometime ago Dr. Bob Jones, III, President of Bob Jones University came to Columbus, Georgia, to speak at our Church. Allow me to pause here to say that I consider Dr. Jones. III a defender of the faith and a friend though we differ on a few doctrines. God bless him. Dr. Jones arrived at the airport and I met him there.

I am not now sure whether I asked him this question going from the airport or back to it. The question was, 'who wrote the book of Hebrews?' He replied that he felt that Paul did. I responded that it could not have been Paul. He looked at me quizzically and asked me who I felt wrote the book. To this I replied that it could not have been Paul because we know that Paul was a Calvinist and the writer of the book was a Arminian. Well, we both got a laugh out of this mere thought.

This illustration seems to give us our first insight of how controversial this book is as to who wrote it and what it teaches. There have been and continues to be many fine Christian leaders, such as Dr. Jones and John Wesley who agree that Paul wrote Hebrews. This message is not about who wrote Hebrews. My humble opinion on this subject is this, I don't know who wrote the book, even after an honest study of this issue. My focus will be on the second difference, which is that this book contains probably the most controversial passage in the New Testament as it applies to the issue of Eternal Security.

This controversy has made a major impact on a nationally known speaker, scholar, and author who used to believe what our Calvinist brothers believe concerning apostasy and Eternal Security. Mr. Clark H. Pinnock, in writing in his book, The Grace of God and the Will of Man, gives this testimony of what happened to him as he studied the book of Hebrews.

"I held onto this view (concerning his view on eternal security) until about 1970, when one of the links in the chain of the tight Calvinian logic broke. It had to do with the doctrine of perseverance of the saints, likely the weakest link in the Calvinian logic, scripturally speaking. I was teaching at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School at the time and attending to the doctrine particularly in the book of Hebrews. If in fact believers enjoy the kind of absolute security Calvinism had taught me they do, I found I could not make very good sense of the vigorous exhortations to persevere (e.g., 3:12) or the awesome warnings not to fall away from Christ (e.g., 10:26), which the book address to Christians. It began to dawn on me that my security in God was linked to my faith-union with Christ and that God is teaching us here the extreme importance of maintaining and not forsaking this relationship . The exhortations and the warnings could only signify that continuing in the grace of God was something that depended at least in part on the human partner. And once I saw that, the logic of Calvinism was broken in principle, and it was only a matter of time before the larger implications of its breaking would dawn one me. The thread was pulled, a nd the garment must begin to unravel, as indeed it did." (1)

This book seems to be as controversial as any when it comes to theology especially as it pertains to the subject of Arminianism and Calvinism. Our Calvinist brothers always points to Romans 8-11 as the unbreakable chain of Calvinism. However, that chain has been broken many times, in many ways, by many people. In the last twenty or thirty years men like Robert Shank, Dale Moody, and Clark Pinnock broke from their Calvinist positions and lived to write about it. There are still others, from all denominations, who have stood firm armed only with Scripture and broke this so-called "unbreakable chain." As we heard from Dr. Pinnock's testimony above, the book of Hebrews seems to play a critical role on the last point in the doctrine of Calvinism called Perseverance of the Saints which is commonly known as the doctrine of Eternal Security.

It would be important for us to investigate why this book was written. You too, like Dr. Jones and Wesley, may surmise that St. Paul wrote this book. Who wrote it is not the focus of this topic unless for some unknown reason, by knowing the author, it would give us the keys to understanding these warnings. The focus of this deliberation is "why did this author, whoever he was, write this book.? Was it to prove the superiority of Christ to the Old Testament sacrifices, or was this book written to counsel, exhort, and warn the reader with all his heart to remain faithful in and to Christ? Once this question is answered, Hebrews 6:4-6 will become clear in its meaning.

In this paper I will be examining the Book of Hebrews as to the following,

I. Why this book was written.

II. An overview of the Book of Hebrews.

III. Definitions.

IV. An Examination Hebrews 6:4-6.

I. Why this book was written? The question of why this book was written must be considered in conjunction with 6:4-6.

A. Many say that the writer was trying to establish the superiority of Christ in His atoning work. They point to passages that reference the concept that Christ is superior, ie,1:1-14. Some point to other chapters, such as Chapters 7-9, that reference His high priestly office. There is no doubt that such can be drawn from these passages.

In his preface to his book on Hebrews, Dr. Homer Kent says, "This remarkable letter contains the only full discussion in the New Testament of Christ as the believers' high priest." (2) He continues, "The masterful and systematic demonstration of Christ's superiorities is unmatched by any other New Testament writer." (3) Dr. F. F. Bruce says, "The purpose of our author's exegesis of Old Testament Scripture, as of his general argument, is to establish the finality of the Gospel...He establishes the finality of Christianity by establishing the supremacy of Christ, in His person and in His work." Other writers such as Henry Ironside, William Newell, and William Barclay seem to concur with these views in their own ways.

The concept of Christ's superiority is not being questioned. Without Christ and His atoning work there would be no hope of salvation for us today. The doctrines of Christ are well established in the rest of the New Testament. His atoning work on the cross of Calvary is the grand theme of the entire New Testament. (4) His sacrifice was well certified in other books of the Bible.(5)

B. Could it be safely advanced that this epistle was not written just to establish the superiority of Christ, but also to establish the grave danger of rejecting the way of salvation which Christ provided? Was the author using this important doctrine, which is the very foundation of Christianity, to exhort the Hebrews, Christians and warn them of the great loss it would produce if Christ is denied? I think so.

In his commentary on Hebrews, Henry Williams confirms this concept when he says, "We are justified, then, in regarding the Epistle as designed specially to confirm the believing Hebrews in their faith, to guard them against the danger of apostasy, and open to them the superior glory of that dispensation under which it was their privilege to live."(6) In point six, "the design and general argument of the Epistle," of Barne's Notes on the New Testament, it says: "The general purpose of this epistle is, to preserve those to whom it was sent from the danger of apostasy." (7) Later in this section he goes on to say that their danger was not totally because of persecution, some of which was taking place, but "it was that of being affected by...relapsing again into the religion of their fathers, and of apostatizing from the gospel; and it was a danger which beset no other part of the Christian world. To meet and counteract this danger was the design of this epistle." (8) So we see that both of these writers agree with the concept that it was to establish the grave danger of rejecting Christ.

There is more still. The Abington Bible Commentary says this, and I quote at length:
"The supreme peril of the church under the stress of persecution was the peril of relapse, and the primary object of the Epistle to the Hebrews is to face this peril and stem the tide of desertion. There is hardly a chapter in the Epistle which does not contain an appeal or a warning to those whose faith was faltering. The writer continually points to the suffering of Christ as an example to be followed and urges his fellow Christians to be stead fast, that they too may be perfected through suffering. Even Jesus had to learn obedience "by the things which He suffered," and His followers must be scholars in the some stern school. Suffering is always hard and cruel, but out of its soil there springs up the harvest of righteousness. Nor does the writer hesitate to warn his readers in the harshest terms about the danger that comes from the compromise of faith." (9)

Therefore, we conclude that the author of this epistle was speaking against the danger of relapsing back to the old religion from which they came whether Jew or Gentile. The hazard of rejecting the superiority of Christ's atonement for the old paths where real. The author used the superiority of Christ to rebut this apostasy, and not to re-teach the doctrines of Christ.

II. At this point I would like to give an overview of the Book of Hebrews. I perceive that much can be said about this book on the subject of Eternal Security. We realize that our Calvinist friends have problems with many Biblical concepts like the human responsibility and God's desire to save all people. The concept being taught in this book gives our friends still another problem. What is clearly being taught here in Hebrews is the concept that a Christian could possibly fall from grace. This concept is the doctrine called Apostasy. If one stops and thinks about Apostasy, human responsibility, and God's desire to save all people, we can see God's dynamic interaction with man and the world. This interaction then could be called the heart and soul of the Arminian thought. The message of this book is clear to all: keep the faith! That is the dynamic God wants from these Christians.

Most agree that there are five basic warnings given in this book. It is interesting to note that because of three of these warning Martin Luther wanted to drop this book from the New Testament canon.(10) Martin Luther wanted to drop the book, but our Calvinist friends would rather deny real Apostasy and thereby twist the message of the book. God in His sovereignty has overruled both.

What is striking about this book is that the writer never wanders far until he issues another warning. As we look at these warning passages, I will endeavor to cite the more important segments of these passages as they relate to this topic.

Now, let us look at the first warning and exhortation. Hebrews 2:1-4 says, "Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation...confirmed unto us by them that heard him."(11) There is a principal taught in Bible schools and seminories about what to do when you come to the word "therefore" as you study Scripture. Simply look to see what it is therefore or why it is there. "Therefore" in this first warning "expresses a logical imperative: from the fact that Christ is greater than the angles it follows that the revelation delivered through the Son must be regarded with the utmost seriousness. The writer insists that adherence to the Christ tradition is the one thing that is necessary." (12) The practical conclusion is that these people, as do we, have a greater responsibility because they now possess Christ, as opposed to the older dispensations of prophets, angels or messengers, and sacrifies. How can we escape if we neglect and let slip what Christ has done for us? How, indeed?

We come now to the second warning and exhortation. It is found in Hebrews chapter three. Lets look at some of this warning. "Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant...But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence...and hope firm unto the end. Harden not your hearts...Take heed, brethren..." Let me pause here and point out that he calls them "brethren" which clearly signifies that he is talking to Christians. "Exhort one another daily...lest any of you be harden through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning or our confidence steadfast unto the end."(13)

We note that this warning was given to the "holy brethren" and "partakers of Christ" denoting a personal relationship with our Lord. Simply put, just as Israel under the leadership of Moses had to labor and follow to enter into that "promised rest," so must the Christians labor under the leadership of Christ to enter into the "promised rest." The condition of entering is to "hold fast" to their hope in Christ.

I. H. Marshall says this of the second warning: "He stresses the faithfulness of Jesus who, like Moses, was set over God's household, but this leads him to the thought that Christians are members of this household only if they display the same faithfulness, and from this there develops a comparison of the Church with Israel and salvation with the rest promised to the people of God."(14)

Hebrews 4:1-16 holds the third warning and exhortation. Let's look at some of these. "Let us therefore fear, lest a promise being left us of entering into His rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. ... let us hold fast our profession. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." (15) This warning and exhortation has in mind Psalms 95 which reviews the transgression of His chosen people who after being wonderfully delivered from Egypt and escaping through the Red Sea. did not make it after all that God did for them. This chapter discusses the unbelief factor which lead to many individuals in Israel not receiving their eternal reward.

H. Orton Wiley has this to say: "Ancient Israel refused the highest that God had for them and perished miserably in the wilderness. The Hebrew Christians at this time were tempted to return to the law imposed upon them from without, and were not pressing on into the new covenant in Christ, in which through the Spirit the law would be written in their hearts and in their minds. With this Old Testament example before him, the writer warns them - and us, lest we too should fail through unbelief." (16)

The fourth warning and exhortation that we find is in Hebrews 5:11-6:20. I realize that Hebrews 6:4-6 will be my final focus of this address. Yet those verses help to make up part of the fourth warning and therefore demand a brief consideration here. As usual I will cite the more important phrases. "Seeing ye are dull of hearing... For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again ... let us go unto perfection, ... For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened...If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame ... And we desire that every on of you so shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: ...That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises...and so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise."(17) This warning will be examined when we look at Hebrews chapter 6:4-6.

We conclude with the fifth warning and exhortation. Let's look again at some of the more prominent passages found in this warning. We will be looking at Hebrews 10:19-39. "Let us draw near with a true heart ...Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering...Let us consider on another to provoke unto love and to good works:...Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, ...but exhorting one another...For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins...He that despised Moses' law died without mercy...Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing...It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God....Cast not away therefore your confidence...Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." (18) Probably this is more sever in its warning then Hebrews 6:4-6. We see clearly that these warnings and exhortation are to believers. We get this idea of the first person plural as "brethren" (vs. 19) and "us" which includes the apostle himself as one of them(vs. 20, 22, and 23) and "we" (vs. 26) brings them into a sharp contrast with those who where not saved that may be mixing among them. These passages suggest clearly that they are saved. The lost cannot trample the blood of Christ under foot because they where never sanctified by it. The warnings are clearly to the Christians and not to some fictitious group of people who call themselves Christians and are active in the Church. If these people were not saved, Christ would not be warning them to continue in faith, but to come to grace in Christ Jesus. It is only logical that Christ should call the lost to repentance and warn the saved against committing apostasy.

This overview then shows us that the dominant theme of Hebrews is warnings, exhortations, and encouragement for Christians to continue in faith. Chapter eleven agrees with this concept because it also illustrates the need for continued perseverance by showing these Hebrew Christians that others before them had to persevere in their faith to reach Heaven's "Canaan land."

III. Before we finally arrive at Hebrew 6:4-6, we need to define some terms.
There are two terms that specifically need to be defined. These two terms are "Christian," and "Apostasy." When I looked up the word "Apostasy" in Wesley's Works, I found that Mr. Wesley more or less assumed that all understood what this term meant. As for that matter so did most other writers. The same thing was true with the term "Christian." Most authors assume that all know what a Christian is. But a few like Wesley do take time to define this term.

A. When I tried to define the term "Christian" I conducted a very informal survey and asked about 15 people to define what makes a person a Christian? The answers that I got gave me the impression that most did not have a clear idea in their mind what makes a person a Christian. If I were to ask you this question, what would your answer be?

The point is when dealing with our Calvinistic brothers, it is important to know what makes one person a Christian and another just a lost sinner. For the propose of this discussion it is important to find the answer to this question.

It does not take much of a student of Scripture to figure out what makes a person a non- Christian. Such a person is called "lost," or simply a "sinner." He is such because he doesn't believe in Christ Jesus as his Lord and Savior. He may engross himself in drunkenness, homosexuality, gambling, and wife and/or child abuse. He may be involved in trying to stop the proliferation of alcoholism, homosexuality, the lottery, and developing good family values. Mere deeds, good or bad, does not cause one to be a sinner or a Christian. Remember, a person who does not believe Christ as his personal savior, is a sinner, though he may be active in a church fellowship. This we all agree to, but the question is, what makes a person a Christian?

The term "Christian" is, used only three times in the scripture, twice in Acts and once in I Peter.(19) In all three cases it carries with it the idea of "Christ-followers." But this concept of "Christ-followers" fails to meet with the criteria of what a Christian is for our eternal security friends. Martin Luther was close to this when he defined a Christian a "Little Christ" - - a classic definition of the Word. Because of this problem of being a "Christ-follower" or a "little Christ's" we must farther define what makes a person a Christian or what is a Christian. Can we find a common meaning which both the Calvinists and Arminians espouse?

Let's try this! One writer says "Faith" [is] "simply accepting God's word, believing it, and living in that light." (20) Will this definition fit our quest for common grounds with our Calvinist brothers on what is or is not a Christian? No, for they would argue that even t he Devil believes and trembles. Yet to hear them preach a salvation message they declare that one must believe on Jesus Christ as their Savior. In their own ranks this definition would be satisfactory. But as it relates to the subject at hand and with the Arminian believers this definition is totally unsatisfactory. Therefore, the problem still exists and that is to find an acceptable definition upon which all may agree.

Maybe we need to try a more complex definition of what is a Christian. All agree that a Christian can be referred to as a saint. These terms can be interchanged doing no violence to our topic of the perseverance of the saints in our quest to find an acceptable definition of what is a Christian.

John Wesley does provide us with a complex definition. Here is what he says.
"By saints, I understand, those who are holy or righteous in the judgment of God Himself; those who are endued with the faith that purifies the heart, that produces a good conscience; those who are grafted into the good olive tree, the spiritual, the invisible Church; those who are branches of the tree vine, of whom Christ says "I am the vine, ye are the branches;" those who so effectually know Christ, as by that knowledge to have escaped the pollutions of the world; those who see the light of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ, and who have been made partakers of the holy Ghost, of the witness and the fruits of the Spirit; those who live by faith in the Son of God; those who are sanctified by the blood of the covenant; those to whom all or any of these characters belong, I mean by the term saints." (21)

Of course, I can agree with Wesley's definition of a Christian, but can our eternal security friends agree with it especially as it relates to the subject at hand? I answer "no." They will parse carefully what they mean by using the terms, "100%," "genuinely," "real," "true," and other such adjectives. Had Wesley used "genuine" in one of his phrases and believed in eternal security, his definition would be the standard. The only conclusion that can be made is that in the area of eternal security these brothers would rather die then give ground to the so called Arminians.

When I use the term "Christian," it will be understood as agreeing with all of the above definitions. These definitions will be applied to Hebrews 6:4-6, and for that matter, all of the book of Hebrews.

B. What about the word "Apostasy"? Is there a common definition of "Apostasy" that both the Calvinists and Arminians can accept?

Mr. P. W. Barnett says, "Apostasy is the antonym of conversion; it is deconversion." (22) Still Robert Mattke writes that apostasy "expresses the idea of abandonment of the faith." (23) He continues by saying "In classical Greek the term signifies a defection or revolt from a military commander. Following in its wake came shame, disgrace, infamy, and reproach or censure." (24) As we apply this to early Church history Mr. Mattke says "its apparent that in many instances the persecutions produced a harvest of apostasy." (25)

Let's look at what the Catholic Encyclopedia has to say on this subject. If anyone knows the real definition of apostasy, it ought to be them. "The word itself in its etymological sense, signifies the desertion of a post, the giving up of a state of life; he who voluntarily embraces a definite state of life cannot leave it, therefore, without becoming an apostate." (26)

Dr. Richard Watson, a famous Methodist scholar and theologian, defines apostasy as "a deserting or abandoning of the true religion." (27) He makes an interesting point by saying that an apostate should not be mistaken as a heretic. The difference is that a heretic abandons various parts of the faith, but an apostate renounces the faith. He concludes by saying, they (or apostates), "after having been Christians, voluntarily relapsed in to Paganism." (28)

From these definitions we can only conclude that apostasy means that people can fall from faith and grace, to such an extent that they may lose their salvation. To call apostate a person who has attended church and was never saved is strange, to say the least. This is an illogical conclusion which means that all lost people are apostates. This is the melancholy logic that is foisted on this subject all the time. This idea that they where never saved to begin with, in the case of apostasy, is indisputably illogical and makes no sense Biblically. A sinner is a sinner, and an apostate is a Christian who give up his promise of the Heavenly Canaan land for the pleasures of sin. Indeed II Peter 2:21 gives the true picture of what an apostate is when it says, "For it had been better for them not to have know the way of righteousness, then, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

Before we move on to the final point of Hebrews 6:4-6, let's review what we had thus far observed. First, we found that while there are scholars who teach that Hebrews was written to establish the superiority of Christ, there are others who feel that the main reason for this writing is to warn and exhort these Christians against the perils of apostasy. Simply put, Dr. Williams said it is "to guard them against the danger of apostasy."(29)

Second, as we surveyed this book, we found that this conclusion was correct. We established that after every discussion of Christ's superiority there were warnings. A prime example of this is when Christ's superiority over the angels ends in the first chapter, the second chapter starts with the warnings to hold firm the faith. Even in a non-warning passage such as chapter eleven we find the exhortation to continue in faith. This the author shows by giving the examples of what past believers received by tenaciously believing even in time of hardness. We find no other Scripture that equals this definition of faith. As Dr. Moody observed after a discussion of this passage he says: "with perseverance the promise will be inherited." (30)

Third, we defined two words that have been abused in this debate, "Christian" and "Apostasy." We considered Wesley's definition of a Christian and concluded that if had he used the word "genuine" the Calvinists would agree with him on his definition as it concerns the subject of eternal security. A person who believes on Christ as their savior is the simplest definition for a Christian. We also found t hat an apostate is a person who has become "unconverted." An apostate lost his salvation in simple terms. We conclude that if a person was never saved to begin with, he could only be called a sinner. It is only logical that an apostate is different from a mere sinner who attends Church.

IV. In this context, we will now consider Hebrews 6:4-6. We know now that it was aimed at Christians. The real question now confronting us is this: what do these verses teach in view of the total context of Hebrews? Or, to put it differently, do we beak with the context and say that these verses apply to those within the Church who were never really saved? If we conclude that they where never saved or weaken the severity of the warnings, then we must say that the context of Hebrews was written to exhort and encourage the lost not to lose what little they never had, and not to Christians to continue steadfast in the faith. There is no defense for the latter question.

Let's look at this passage, and consider it on a verse-by verse basis.

Vs. 4 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Vs. 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Vs. 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

This passage was found in the fourth warning and exhortation. The passage itself speaks of an awful event. In all likelihood this passage among Christians is at least as controversial

as the question of abortion is to the Christian and the world. Dr. Dale Moody says that this passage suffers most "from the sacred art of Scripture twisting."(31) Robert Shank says of the subject of eternal security that it is like the blacksmiths sign that announces all kinds of fancy twistings and turning are done here. This passage suffers from the classical the art of twisting into it or out of it what our eternal security friends want it to say. It is, therefore, not my intent to twist but to clearly speak in terms that we may all understand.

A. Allow me to give a general overview of the logic that our Calvinist friends use concerning this passage. There are essentially four theories that our Calvinistic brothers use to defend their faith in eternal security. These are: the professors-not possessors theory, the disqualification theory, the scarecrow theory, and, the hypothetical theory.

The professors-not possessors theory basically teaches that Hebrews 6:4-6 are professed believers who have never "really" been saved nor do they posses salvation. This passage then is "referring to those who have been to Christian truth, and may even have shown some apparent evidences of conversion, but these are abortive (like the seed sown on the rocky ground). The apostasy is explained as the settled and final rejection of Christ."(32) Friends, the people that this theory is talking about are simply guilty of not believing. They had nothing to reject. How could they be guilty of apostasy if apostasy means "unconversion"?

disqualification theory which mirrors the saved person who backslide theory. Both agree that a "true" believer is secure. However, this passage does not teach that position. In order to make some sort of sense they come up with these theories. Dr. Hurtado says that this passage is "referring to those whose carnality results in their disqualification from the Christian race and a loss of rewards, but not their salvation." (33) Still another twist to this passage is the theory given by Dr. Kent, when he says that "they explain the 'falling way' as a falling into sin to the extent that they are in danger of divine chastening."(34) Had apostle Paul known this theory, he would have never worried about being a castaway. In reality chastising and rewards have nothing to do with this passage and that renders this theory in total denial of the context of this passage.

The "scarecrow theory" (35) is intended to scare wavering believers to ensure that they do not commit apostasy. If a Christian is then informed of this scarecrow, (6:4-6), then he is enlightened to the fact of this passage and it becomes nothing to be scared of at all. "If this theory is true, does this not impugn the character of God as a God of truth"(36) and therefore all warnings will not to be taken seriously. This passage is just there to scare Christians to holiness.

Finally, we come to the hypothetical theory. This theory claims, according to Dr. Kent, that the "warning in Hebrews 6 was hypothetical. Its purpose was to exhort believers into obedience by revealing the seriousness of denying Christ. This view seeks to mediate the apparent teaching of the passage (that a true believer can lose his salvation) with the doctrine of the believers's security." (37) At least this theory agrees that the people spoken of in Hebrews 6 are believers, and that's a good start. But note, these people can not prove the doctrine of eternal security without defending the other five points of Calvin's doctrines. The Scriptures have spoken, but they have not listened.

There is no logical reason for these theories except this: "THC." In some illegal drugs there is a chemical called "THC" that negatively affects the thinking functions of the brain. These theories came about in order to protect one, if not all, five points of their beloved Calvinist dogma. Because of this they are not thinking clearly concerning this passage. Therefore, in a real theological sense of the word they have been theologically drugged. They too, have a "THC" imbalance meaning "Too-much Hyper-Calvinism."

B. The last position or theory to be discussed is the saved-lost theory . This theory more than the first four, clearly agrees with the teaching of Hebrews 6:4-6. It is at harmony with the context of this book, and the definitions of a Christian and Apostasy. Therefore, it is probably less of a theory and more of a fact, that a Christian can commit Apostasy and be hopelessly lost.

"For it is impossible for those who where once enlightened." Enlightened is the first of the five aorist participles used in verses four and five. The word once in the Greek is hapax means 'once and for all,' which "points to something complete."(38) Dr. Kent says that enlightened is the same word for illuminated in 10:32. He continues, "the same participle is used in 10:32, with no hint that there was any thing i nadequate or tentative about their spiritualenlightenment. Normal understanding of the passage in 10:32 as well as 6:4 would lead us to assume real enlightenment by regeneration." (39) Dr. William Newell seems to agree with Kent. He says, "This 'enlightenment' then, about Christ, was the same which those finally saved received."(40) John Wesley says that enlightened is "an expression familiar with the Apostle, (he believed Paul wrote it) and never by him applied to any but believers." (41) From this we can only conclude that the person "once enlightened" were regenerated and believers in Christ as their personal savior. They are "true" Christians.

"And have tasted of the heavenly gift ." Let me say at the beginning that "taste" here does not reflect that idea of a mere sampling. Dr. Kent says that this "verb itself did not mean a mere sampling, but a real experience, as its use in Acts 10:10 attests. The writer of Hebrews has already used "tasted" in the sense of "experienced" in 2:9, where Christ "tasted death." (42) Dr. Kent says that "surely the meaning is that He actually experienced it." (43) Dr. Kent strongly suggests that Christ Himself is meant by heavenly gift. Dr. Newell feels that taste here does not mean a real complete personal experience. He counters this with the example of the Samaritan woman when our Lord tells her "whosoever drinketh" will have eternal life. Dr. Newell therefore concludes that they did not have a real experience because they only tasted and did not drink. Is not drinking an experience? When Christ tasted death for us, did he just die a little? When the Psalmist says in 34:8 "Oh, taste and see that the Lord is good;" as well as I Peter 2:3 "If so be ye have tasted that the lord is gracious," means that these people are commanded to just sample it? Did the reality of this passage get too hot for Dr. Newell? Dr. Henry Williams says that this "term expresses the intimate knowledge which is derived from personal experience." (44) Again we can only conclude that these persons are born again Christians.

"And where made partakers of the Holy Ghost." The word "partakers," according to Thayer, can also be translated as sharing. "Partakers" is the same word that was used 3:1 when the apostle writes, "Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling." Here there is no dispute that those who are sharers or partakers are Christians. Speaking on 3:1, Dr. Newell says that the "Holy Brethren" in this verse, "is not a reference to brethren by race, but to those believing on Christ ...'sanctified in Christ Jesus.'"(45) Newell continues by saying that "these Hebrew believers are saluted as 'partakers of a heavenly calling .'" (46) Here Dr. Newell sees partakers as being Christians. Yet this same writer belittles the same word "partakers" in 6:4 by saying this. "Note at once, it is not said that these were sealed with the Spirit, as were those at Pentecost, and in Samaria, and in Ephesus, who were "sealed unto the day of redemption;'" (47) His observation is very good but his logic is very poor. If we apply his reasoning, Jesus lied when He said that "whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Instead Jesus should have said "whosoever believeth and is sealed." This is a high-handed theological twist by Dr. Newell. To say that because the words 'drink' and 'sealed' are not used thereby means that they are not real Christians, is to say that they must always use these two words when referencing a saved person. If his logic is applied then Crispus, those that believed after Paul's sermon on Mars Hill, Lydia, and the Philippian Jailor are not saved because the words drink and sealed are not used. That is totally illogical to say the least, nor do the scriptures admit to Dr. Newell's notion. I don't think that he really wants to defend this kind of twisted logic.

We must understand the word 'partakers' or 'sharers' as meaning the real thing: a Christian. Dr. Kent says, "to dilute this expression is inconsistent with the author's employment of the term elsewhere. The statement thus asserts a sharing of the Holy Spirit, and in the Christian context of this epistle, it refers to sharing of the Spirit's indwelling presence. Normal understanding of the phrase would lead to the conclusion that such persons are viewed as regenerated, not merely exposed to the Spirit's convicting power but unresponsive to it." (48) Dr. Samuel Wakefield agrees with this point saying "They 'were made partakers of the Holy Ghost:' which evidently means, in the language of the New Testament, to receive the Holy Ghost in his sanctifying and comforting influences." (49)

"And have tasted the good word of God." Dr. Kent says that this "refers to the experiencing...the Word of God in the Gospel and finding it good." (50) Dr. Wakefield says that they "heartily embraced the word of truth, and realized the saving power of the Gospel dispensation." (51) Dr. Williams says that "they had the clearest inward testimony of the reality of His grace, and the blessedness of His salvation." (52) What more can be said of a "true" believer in Christ?

From verses four and five we can only conclude that the people who the apostle is speaking of are saved people. This, then, is a warning that might spare their souls from eternal damnation if they take heed. Lost people are normally not talked about in such terms.

"If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." This is probably one of the most severe and difficult verses in Scripture to grasp. Verses four and five clearly teach that the persons talked about are Christians. Verse six concludes with a real warning to real Christians.

Dr. Wakefield says that the "apostle makes no supposition at all; for there is no "if" in the original. His words are 'and have fallen away.'" (53) The NASB also agrees by saying "and then have fallen way." From this we can truthfully conclude that a true believer is meant here and thereby setting forth the possibility of apostasy. There is no hypothetical supposition here.

Fall away means "to fall away utterly" (54) according to Lenski. Dr. Kent says that "fall way" can "hardly refer to sins committed through weakness, for which Scripture gives many examples of restoration in both Old Testament and New Testament...Hence the normal understanding of these descriptive terms in the light of the author's own usage elsewhere in the epistle, is of those who are regenerated and then repudiate Christ and forsake Him." (55) These are true, real, possessing, genuine, and 100% Christians. They fell utterly from the saving grace of God. This is not a mere loss of rewards, or personal piety. This fall was not caused by some weakness of the flesh or an adulterous afair. This sin was the rejection of Christ and all that was accomplished on the cross of Calvary. As Dr Kent says, "It is not a question of needing to be saved again." (56)

The rejection of Christ by these apostates amount to recrucifying him as surely as the Jews did the first time. You don't reject Christ's work of salvation and inherit eternal life with Him. Again Dr. Kent says that "no strong reason exists for not employing the common meaning here. The author's point is that those who experience all that Christ provides and then turns away from Him in a settled and final way are really joining the ranks of those who crucified Jesus...by renouncing Christ, they bring more public shame upon Him than if they had never believed at all."(57) We can simply conclude that if these Christians continue to insist on this rejection there will be no hope for them. They will have lost their salvation.

I have quoted from Dr. Kent at large in this last section. We can certainly agree with his interpretation of this passage. What is so interesting is after he honestly gave the correct meaning of these verses we find him unable to let go of his Eternal Security position. He calls this warning hypothetical. Why? Because he believes in the Eternal Security of the believer. He sees eternal security as a cardinal doctrine of the faith. To deny this doctrine to a Calvinist is like denying the faith. The only problem is that no where in the scriptures do we find the terms "once saved, always saved," "once in grace always in grace," "once a child of God always a child of God," "ye can never lose your salvation," or "ye are eternally secure," when speaking of the children of God. No such phrases are found in the Greek, much less any other translations. Eternal Security can only be rationalized if you embrace all five points of Calvinism. Like many other Calvinists, Dr. Kent is honest, but he simply can not bring himself to accept the truth. Many there are today who have been brainwashed to this doctrine. Yet God has aroused the hearts of many to reject this doctrine because God's truth is the only counter drug to stop "THC."

As we surveyed this book, we found that the warnings were real, written to real Christians, an that one became and apostate when "deconversion" took place. This warning was given in hopes of preventing such apostasy. If such apostasy could not take place God would not have found it necessary to give the warning. The warning in 6:4-6 was written to real Christians who were in the real process of committing real apostasy. Nothing hypothetical here!

John Wesley said of this passage, "Must not every unprejudiced person see, the expressions here used are so strong and clear, that they cannot, without gross and palpable wresting, be understood of any but true believers?" (58) He concludes his discussion, and so I do mine, of this passage by saying "It is impossible to renew again unto repentance those who were once enlightened' and have fallen away; therefore they must perish everlastingly." (59) I can only say Amen!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. The Grace of God and the Will of Man, Clark H. Pinnock, ed. (Bethany House Publishers, Minneapolis, Minnesota. (1989, Rpt., 1995)) 17 One of the contributors to this book, Dr. Richard Rice, says that a "number of evangelical theologians have abandoned the traditional view of divine immutability." This is very unfortunate. God is unchangeable or how else can we trust Him for the way of Salvation? Where Dr. Pinnock stands on this issue is unclear. There are still other issues that Dr. Pinnock is off on. Even as an Arminian there are those fundamentals doctrines that must be accepted and believed if one is to stand for Christ.

2. The Epistle to Hebrews, Homer A. Kent, Jr.; (Winona Lake, Indiana, BMH, 4th ed, 1995) 9

3. Kent Jr. p 9

4. Matt. 20:28; I Tim. 2:6; and Gal. 1:13

5. John 1:29; Rom.4:24 and Rom.5:6-10; and 1Pet.3:18-

6. Epistle to the Hebrews, Rev. Henry W. Williams, (London, Wesleyan Conference Office 1871) 31

7. Barns Notes on the New Testament, Albert Barne's,

8. Barns

9. The Abingdon Bible Commentary, Frederick Carl Eiselen, ed., (Nashville: Abingdon - Cokesbury, 1929.) 1295

10. Apostasy, Dr. Dale Moody, (Greenville, S.C., Smyth & Helwys Publishing, Inc.,

1991.) 67

11. Hebrews 2:1 and 3

12. Word Biblical Commentary: Volume 47a, Hebrews 1-8, William L. Lane. (Dallas: Word Book Publishers, 1991.) 37

13. Hebrews 3:5-6, 12-13

14. Kept by the Power of God, I. Howard Marshall, (Minneapolis, Minnesota, Bethany Fellowship, Inc., 1969.) 139-140

15. Hebrews 4:1, 11, 14, and 16

16. The Epistle to the Hebrews, H. Orton Wiley. (Kansas City, Missouri, Beacon Hill Press, 1984.) 123

17. Hebrews 5:11, 12; 6:1, 4, 6, 11, 12, and 15

18. Hebrews: 10:22, 23, 25, 26, 28, 29, 31,35, and 38

19. Acts 11:26; 26:28; I Peter 4:16

20. Grace Unlimited, Clark Pinnock ed., (Minneapolis, Minnesota, Bethany House Publishers, 1975.) 156

21. The Works of John Wesley, Volume 10, Thomas Jackson ed., (Salem, Ohio, Schmul Publishers, 1979.) 285

22. Dictionary of the Later New Testament and its Developments, Ralph P. Martin and Peter H. Davids, ed.., (Downers Grove, IL. Inter Varsity Press, 1997.) 73

23. Beacon Dictionary of Theology, Richard S. Taylor, ed., (Kansas City, Beacon Hill Press, 1983.) 44-45,

24. Ibid

25. Ibid

26. The Catholic Encyclopedia (Internet copy http://www.knight.org/advent/cathen/01624b.htm)

27. A Biblical and Theological Dictionary, Richard Watson, (New York, B. Waugh and T. Mason, 1833.) 71-72

28. Ibid

29. Williams, p 31

30. Apostasy, Dale Moody. (Greenville, South Carolina, Smyth and Helwys Publishing, Inc.,1991.) 45

31. The Word of Truth, Dale Moody. (Grand Rapids: W. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1981) 354

32. The Epistle to the Hebrews, Homer A. Kent, Jr. (Winona Lake: Baker Book House, 1983) 111-112

33. "Are the Persons Described in Hebrews 6:4-6 Christians?" (Internet copy

http://www.leaderu.com/isot/docs/heb2.html)

34. Kent, p. 112

35. This theory was sent to me by Mr. Jeff Paton. He to has researched the subject of Eternal Security and found that there are people who use this theory in defense of this doctrine.

36. Paton

37. Kent, p113

38. Kent, p 108

39. Kent, p 108

40. Hebrews, Verse-by Verse, Dr. William R. Newell. (Grand Rapids: Kregel Classics, 1995.) 185

41. Works, 9:248

42. Kent, p 108

43. Kent, p 108

44. An Exposition of the Epistle to the Hebrews, Henry W. Williams. (London: Wesleyan Conference Office, 1871) 176

45. Newell, p 73

46. Newell, p 75

47. Newell, p 187

48. Kent, p 109

49. Christian Theology, Dr. Samuel Wakefield. (Cincinnati: Walden and Stowe, 1869) 462

50. Kent, p 109

51. Wakefield, p 462

52. Williams, p 179

53. Wakefield, p 462

54. The Interpretation of the Epistle to the Hebrews and of the Epistle of James,

R. C. H. Lenski. (Columbus, Ohio, Wartburg Press, 1946) 185

55. Kent, p 110

56. Kent, p 110

57. Kent, p 110

58. Works, 10:294

59. Works, 10:295

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by Sha'ul (Member # 8294) on :

One thing I've learned when talking scripture is when someone's eyes are closed,mise well not waste your breath, Jesus said don't throw your pearls before swine. So I hope for your sake that Once saved always saved is true, because not one of your verses that you used to back your point works. God's word is too clear except to those who don't want to see, they want the reward but don't want to have to follow any rules they want it there way not His way, God said I'd rather obedience that sacrafice. So live whatever life you want, good luck with that. Bible says watch out for those who would twist the word. Yeshua is my Lord and Saviour, only by Him shall I enter the kingdom. but I am going to do all I can to be obedient to His commandments because I want to and that's the least I can do considering what He did for me. I don't keep the commandments because I have to(even though His word is clear we are to) I keep them because I want to and it is pleasing to Him. That is all and final.

Posted by Sha'ul (Member # 8294) on :

No wonder God calls us stiffnecked people, Thank you Father for your patience and mercy. For we truly are a rebelious people.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

quote:
I don't keep the commandments because I have to(even though His word is clear we are to) I keep them because I want to and it is pleasing to Him. That is all and final.

That is a good summary of the OSAS stand.

Each member of the Triune Godhead is involved in the “love life” of a believer. God the Father commands us to love one another, God the Son gave His life on the cross, the supreme example of love. And God the Holy Spirit lives within us to provide the love we need (Rom. 5:5). To abide in love is to abide in God, and to abide in God is to abide in love. Christian love is not something we “work up” when we need it. Christian love is “shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit,” and this is your constant experience as you abide in Christ.

Posted by Sha'ul (Member # 8294) on :

Amen, Carol

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sha'ul:
One thing I've learned when talking scripture is when someone's eyes are closed,mise well not waste your breath, Jesus said don't throw your pearls before swine. So I hope for your sake that Once saved always saved is true, because not one of your verses that you used to back your point works. God's word is too clear except to those who don't want to see, they want the reward but don't want to have to follow any rules they want it there way not His way, God said I'd rather obedience that sacrafice. So live whatever life you want, good luck with that. Bible says watch out for those who would twist the word. Yeshua is my Lord and Saviour, only by Him shall I enter the kingdom. but I am going to do all I can to be obedient to His commandments because I want to and that's the least I can do considering what He did for me. I don't keep the commandments because I have to(even though His word is clear we are to) I keep them because I want to and it is pleasing to Him. That is all and final.

A few things that I have learned is when someone starts calling others pigs because they clearly see no pearls of wisdom in their opinion of Gods Word but instead wood, hay and stubble. That these people usually invoke "Yeshua" somewhere instead of the name of "Jesus" just to make a show of how much more holy they are.

If you truly could see you would know that all sin and come short of the glory of God. Or do you like calling God a liar?

Now stop your sillyness! Only Christ kept all the commandments without sin.

Once Sealed Always Sealed is indeed a Biblical FACT and it is imputed to us because of our FAITH in the Promise of God...PERIOD! It is also the righteousness of Christ, not ours, that secured this everlasting salvation.

You also totally missed Carols point.

I strongly suggest that you reconsider your opinion that your salvation is some how hinged on a self righteousness.

Posted by Sha'ul (Member # 8294) on :

Just keep oinking wildB, pride comes before the fall, as well as arrogance closed mindedness and the list goes on and on.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sha'ul:
Just keep oinking wildB, pride comes before the fall, as well as arrogance closed mindedness and the list goes on and on.

Proverbs 24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

Repent while the day is yet called day.

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Did any of you read my post about Hebrews....

Its very interesting and clears a lot of misconception...

I feel all of you are my brothers and or sisters in the Messiah, Grk The Christ; Jesus; Yahoshua, saying that all of you that profess The Master,
All of you that Love Jesus (Yahoshua), and the Father [Yahweh].

Im certainly not some great Prophet, nor teacher, nor anything other than one that is trying to live a life of love.

The name of the Father and His Son are another topic all together.

The LAW is only breifly mentioned in this study.
Fot it also is a large post and very indepth.

i have many things to say, and many things to learn.

ANY AND ALL SCRIPTURE THAT ANYONE BRINGS TO ME, AND THIS POST, NEEDS TO BE LOOKED AT, PRAYERFULLY CONSIDERED AND IT MUST BE EXAMINED; IN THE LIGHT OF ALL OF GOD'S WORD

If my Brother ie; such as Brother Bill posts a scripture, i assume he believes that it means what he states and he therefore uses the scripture to try and prove his point or open someone's eyes that they might see. Such as i do, becausehelives does, sister Carol does, Shaul etc., etc.

Is this not the truth? well unless one is trying to delibertly sow discard, and or twist scriptures mearly for the point of confusion or to "win a debate" at any cost, to me they are to be respected, and given every opportunity to prove, or to show why they see a doctrine as such. This to me is love of one another. I may adimately disagree with some of you; but by HIS grace i pray i show: Patience, understanding and respect along with LOVE to any and all that post what they see and believe.

Do we not expect the same of others?

Im not a moderator, although i was for quite a time; im really (to those who do not know me) i mean really (prob. more than anytime in my life), searching for all the truth; and that is found in the Son of the MOST HIGH GOD!

i do not know niether Shaul nor wildb (BILL), but i do not question eithers sincereity. When one "casts their pearls before swine" to ME; it is not talking about a brother, for we all know that IRON sharpens IRON! It perhaps may be talking about the Pharasee or Saducees, maybe even the WORLD per sey; but im sure its not talking about a brother. I considerer wildb (Bill) and you Shaul a Brother until proven otherwise [Smile]

I will try to answer Sister Carol in another post , perhaps i have said enough for now>

bondservant
barry

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

"Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.

He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction." 2Peter 3:15,16

rightly dividing the Word of Truth / the whole council of Yahweh

Sealed by the Spirit

In 2 Cor. 1:21-22, we read, "Now he that established us with you in Christ, and anointed us, is God; who also sealed us, and gave us the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts." In Eph. 1:13-14, we read, "in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, -- in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God's own possession, unto the praise of his glory." Ephesians 4:30 says, "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, in whom ye were sealed unto the day of redemption."

Calvinistic theologians take these passages to mean that one who has ever believed in the Lord is at that moment granted salvation from sin and its punishment, and that salvation is secured so that there is no possibility of it being lost, for he is "sealed and secured" by God and given a pledge that he can never be lost. It is often styled "eternal security of the believer," or "impossibility of apostasy."

We would have no argument with the idea of the eternal security of the believer if those who use the terms would use them as God does. That is, a "believer" is a faithful child of God who is "walking in the light, as He is in the light (1 Jn. 1:7), a sheep in the fold of Christ who is "hearing the voice of Jesus and following Him" (John 10:27-28). We contend that all the powers of evil on earth or in hell cannot cause a person to be lost who is following the voice of Jesus and doing His will. He has "eternal security." The questions, however, are: May a person who is a believer ever fall away from the faith or cease to be a believer? May a person's love for Christ grow cold? (Mt. 24:12). A person who was a 'goat' ceased to be a goat and became a sheep. May a person cease to be a sheep, and leave the fold? When we consider all the Bible warnings, we know that he can. So, in order to better understand the idea of being "sealed" and having an "earnest of the Spirit," let us examine those terms and see their meaning more completely.

There is little doubt that the term "earnest," from the Greek "arrabon" originally referred to what we call "earnest money" deposited by a purchaser as a down payment, and to be forfeited if the purchase was not complete, or the agreement broken. In the New Testament it is suggested that the Holy Spirit is given to a Christian as a divine pledge or down payment on the future blessings that God has in store for us.

Surely every Christian is at least dimly aware that every spiritual blessing he now has in Christ is but a foretaste, a sort of "down payment," of the life and blessings God has reserved in heaven for us "who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation reserved in heaven for us, ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Pet. 1:4-5). Note that we are kept by the power of God, but it is through faith. The basic question with which we are dealing is, "Once the earnest money was given, did it necessarily follow that the thing purchased was unconditionally guaranteed?" The answer should be apparent whether one looks at any purchase today, or how the term applied in either the Old Testament or the New. There were and are terms of any contract, will or covenant. If one party does not abide by the terms, the earnest money that was put down is forfeit. Anyone who ever put up "earnest money" to buy a house may have discovered that.

1 John 3:23-24 is one among many passages that teach that abiding in Christ is dependent upon keeping His commandments. If we grieve the Spirit (Eph. 4:30, quench the Spirit (1 Thes. 5:19), do despite to the Spirit (Heb. 10:29), then we may break the contract or the relationship that existed when the earnest was given.

Now let us examine briefly what is meant by the "seal." The noun "sphragio" and the verb, "sphragizo" are used in various ways to indicate ownership, security, authentication, etc., in a way that is very similar to how we use the word "seal" in the English language. We seal a letter by moistening the glue. A notary puts his seal on a document to attest to the fact that the party or parties involved actually gave the testimony indicated, or that the signatures are valid. When the tomb of Jesus was sealed (Mt. 27:66), it was for the purpose of fixing it so the body could not easily be removed. It was not meant to be broken, but note carefully that although it was not meant to be broken, it was. When we seal a letter, it is not meant to be opened before it gets to its destination, but it can be. When a notary puts his seal on an agreement, the agreement is not supposed to be broken, but it can be.

When God gives the Holy Spirit to His children as an authentication that He has bought us, and we belong to Him, that seals an agreement that we have made with Him that we accept the authority of Jesus as Lord, and belong to Him forever. That in no way implies that we cannot break that agreement, and be unfaithful. When Abraham received "the sign of circumcision, as a seal of the righteousness of faith which he had" (Rom. 4:11) God was attesting to the fact that Abraham and his descendants who kept the ritual properly, and obeyed the law would be His special people. It did NOT signify that they could not break His covenant, be disobedient and be cut off from the blessings promised. Surely no person who reads the history of Israel could logically conclude otherwise.

To summarize: God has put His "stamp of approval" (seal) on us as His children by giving us His Spirit (Rom. 8:9; 1 Cor. 3:16). If we demonstrate that we are His by producing the fruit of the Spirit, then this seal shows that we are owned by Him and are under His protection and authority. We may fail to do that, "break the seal" and be lost. Even in the context of Ephesians 4:30-32 when Paul says we are sealed unto the day of redemption, he warns us not to grieve the Holy Spirit, and to be kind and forgiving. Jesus said that God will not forgive us if we do not forgive others (Mt. 6:14-18). So we must conclude that though He has sealed us with the Spirit, and the Lord knows who are His (2 Tim. 2:19), if we do not depart from unrighteousness we will be lost, or as we might put it, the seal will be broken.

The Holy Spirit is both an earnest (a foretaste of what God has in store for us) and a seal, but those terms do not refer to the same function or purpose, for the Holy Spirit as a seal is showing that we belong to Him and are under His authority and care, and the Holy Spirit as an earnest is to give us an idea of what we shall have as a result of belonging to Him.

T. Pierce Brown

Published in The Old Paths Archive
(http://www.oldpaths.com)

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Brother wildb (Bill posted these statements:

quote:
WOW!

So Please do tell the baseball fans where Paul instructs, teaches, admonishes, a CHILD OF GOD how, when and where to UN SEAL what GOD HAS SEALED!

You and the rest that hold this opinion are GREATLY MISLEAD!

Your mix and match of scrip is a very great sadness.

Please EXPLAIN, in your sillyness what PAUL is teaching!

Ephesians, Chapter 1, 13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians, Chapter 4, 30: And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Once Sealed Always Sealed until GOD REDEEMS is what it reads to me by the POWER and GRACE of our LORD.

PLEASE STOP BUMPING THIS POST TO THE TOP!

You are wrong with your interpretation.

Methinks that Brother Dale (becausehelives) answered those statements adeqautely..in the above post.

Thankyou Brother Dale for the insight here.

bondservant
barry

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
Brother wildb (Bill posted these statements:

quote:
WOW!

So Please do tell the baseball fans where Paul instructs, teaches, admonishes, a CHILD OF GOD how, when and where to UN SEAL what GOD HAS SEALED!

You and the rest that hold this opinion are GREATLY MISLEAD!

Your mix and match of scrip is a very great sadness.

Please EXPLAIN, in your sillyness what PAUL is teaching!

Ephesians, Chapter 1, 13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians, Chapter 4, 30: And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Once Sealed Always Sealed until GOD REDEEMS is what it reads to me by the POWER and GRACE of our LORD.

PLEASE STOP BUMPING THIS POST TO THE TOP!

You are wrong with your interpretation.

Methinks that Brother Dale (becausehelives) answered those statements adeqautely..in the above post.

Thankyou Brother Dale for the insight here.

bondservant
barry

Let me ask you 2 this. When God passed between those pieces that Abram had laid out,that heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.

Was Abram circumcised?

And what was counted to him for righteousness?

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Sister Carol, i have not forgotten you and want to respond to some of your posts.

Honered Sister and handmaid of the Lord, i feel your heart i think in this matter. i think that perhaps your stance on this issue is actually the very heart of the matter.

Correct me if im wrong; but i feel you love Jesus, want to follow Him, want to please HIM, and do not want to sin nor cause any reason to greive the MASTER.

On many points i agree with you and where you stand on this issue of OSAS..

There is no devil that can "take" your salvation dear sister, nor any man, women, boy or girl, that can take your salvation!

There is "no" one that can "pluck" you from his hand!

This is to me TRUE, much so. It is a foundational truth that the scriptures bear up, time and time again!

No question as to the validaty of the principals in scripture listed above. If you like i could probably list 100's of scriptures to confirm the above mentioned stance on security from any outside force "taking" ones salvation.

Herein Sister lies the problem; OSAS teaches the above principals and rightly so, but the problem i see is that one someone is "saved", abiding in the vine, the OSAS stance goes beyond scripture to say that no matter what "one" does, [this is meaning the "saved" person], they cannot go to hell, they cannot be lost! To me this is not what the scriptures teach..

i feel that part of the "MARK" of the "BEAST" is "ones self", old nature, sinful man, SELF!

To him that overcomes, the bible says...right, yes..

Overcomes what, we are out of the "world", the world cannot overcome anything.

To him [i belive] that overcomes ones self.

This is where to me the puzzle FITS scripture...Matthew 6:

Our Father who art in heaven.........for give us our tresspasses as we forgive those that tresspass against us

Our biggest enemy is not satan, not the world, not muslims, not this or that religion.....ITS our "own" "selves"; this is where the evil lies in the "old man" ; the body of SIN that lies within us!

What shall we do, who can deliver us from this BODY OF DEATH!, thank Our Father, Yahoshua, Jesus the Messiah, as long as we walk in the Spirit; we will not fufill the [lusts] of the flesh!

The spiritual warefare folks is in the battle ground of our MIND!

This is where satan works to coerce us to evil; but be not mistaken my dear Brothers and Sisters; YaHWeH God Almighty did not let Adam [the women you gave me God], nor Eve [that serpent begiled me]; get away with an excuse!

We must walk in the Spirit; for walking in the FLESH WILL BE DEATH BROTHREN!!!!!!!

God is NOT mocked; if you sow to the flesh you will reap corruption; the SECOND DEATH!!

LET NO MAN DECIVE YOU WITH VAIN WORDS, i have no hatred for any of you , i hope my heart is pure and i love each of you!

The warnings are so clear to me folks.

Why would it make someone so afraid as to not look at the scriptures that show OSAS is wrong Sister; help me understand.

We must have complete faith in Yahoshua Jesus to keep us no matter what, i cant keep myself, i must have the Holy Spirit, and i must TRUST in that gift to walk right, to stay right and to YES ENDURE unto the end...Do not fret over devils, the world, cunning and crafty men who seek to our destyruction; trust in HIM, he will bring us through; but to believe that we can sin and continue without repentance is a sure DEATH!

i dont want to ramble, and hopefully my words will be understood from my heart in the way they were intended. To me im not trying to win, not trying to convert just because i think im a great debater; i truly wholly see this position from this prospective, and i see great danger in the way many are teaching OSAS....to the false security of [living in sin],

Do i sin...YES; do i have to sin...NO
What Bro Barry you dont have to sin...Bible says i dont.

If i walk in the Spirit i will not fulfill the lusts of the FLESh, true?

Yes its true!

If you want scriptues let me know....

This is where the LAW is tied in folks, walking in the Spirit: [THE LAW IS WRITTEN ON OUR HEARTS]

If we brake the LAW our heart is condemned, but what shall i do, i feel condemnation, conviction; i pray Oh Lord have mercy on me , forgive me [as i have forgiven those who sinned against me]!

Right relationship again, clean, FOR HE is faithful to forgive folks!

BIBLE SAYS "BE YE PERFECT AS YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN IS PERFECT"...BIBLE SAYS THAT ...IS IT TRUE?

Of course its true, but how can this be Brother, "perfection"???

By what i stated above; Father knows your heart and intent; Father forgive me, our Advocate Jesus Christ the righteous says....Father i paid for that sin, and wins our case by HIS precious blood!...We are perfect again in the Father's eyes......By the righteousness of Yahoshua, Jesus!

Therefore in the Spirit, walking in the Spirit we will not sin, if we walk in the flesh or slip into sin, we have an ADVOCATE, Yahoshua, Jesus; who we confess our sins is faithfull and forgives our sins, the LAW has NO penalty...If we have confessed and repented and walk in the Spirit!

But woe to the man that thinks he can willfully walk in the flesh, sin and live there not walking in the Spirit....His end shall be death, reaping to himself corruption...HEED the warnings Church..............

On your statement about "eternal life"; it is a person. Yahoshua [heb], Jesus! The truth also is the one and same person. To walk away from Yahoshua [this name in heb. means YHWH is salvation]is to walk away from "Eternal Life".

The seal [explained by bhl above] is the earnest of HIS promise, to forever be with HIM Yahoshua {eternal life}; to walk away from Yahoshua and walking in the SPIRIT, and continue therein....YOU WILL HAVE TO PAY FOR BREAKING THE LAW...for you have no advocate other than Yahoshua [JESUS}...and to do that one will fall under the penalty of the LAW>>>DEATH

Ive perhaps said enough...

Dear Sister Carol, as i said before i see your heart in many posts here, and i appreciate your love for not only God, byut HIS people.

Hope i explained form my heart how i see OSAS...

Keep the faith dear Sister..

bondservant
barry

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

Do you constrain us to be circumcised like you and Dale?

Don't you two know that in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

We that Follow Once Sealed Always Sealed until the day of redemption by the SEALER are confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in us will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ!

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

Hello Wildb,

I truly pray for your eyes to be opened to the truth...

As to circumcision ...circumcision of the flesh available nothing but the man or woman that has not had Yahweh preform circumcision of the heart is not a new creature!

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28.

All had better have a healthy fear of Yahweh, understanding to destroy the soul is to unseal what He has sealed!

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Origianally posted by wildb

quote:
Do you constrain us to be circumcised like you and Dale?

Don't you two know that in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

We that Follow Once Sealed Always Sealed until the day of redemption by the SEALER are confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in us will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ!

What?
First i do not know if Brother Dale is circumcised or not..Don't care.

If it be that your talking about circumcised in the flesh...It's his circumcision of the heart that i care about and that i know he is [Smile]

Infatically yes i do know what the LORD said in:

Galatians 6:13For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

Colossians 2:11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Romans 2:25For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Romans 2:26Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

Romans 2:27And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

Romans 2:28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Romans 2:29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 3:30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Romans 4:9Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Romans 4:10How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

Romans 4:11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Need i show more scriptures?

Honered Brother Bill, your latest post seems like the last statement before a white flag of surrender, you have not, nor can you post any scriptures to refute my last several posts, not Brother Dales last posts...you seemingly are throwing out hopeless "life lines" to try and save a pet doctrine of yours with [smoke screens]that will not match up with scripture, Dear Sir, go back and go over the scriptures that have been posted and see the exegeses of thought and see if you can refute the claims of OSAS....are evil and proposterous! Stop using Eisegesis sir.

As taught by mainstream religion ie; Charles Stanley; et.el;.

Humbly yours sir:

bondservbant
barry

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Hello Wildb,

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28.

All had better have a healthy fear of Yahweh, understanding to destroy the soul is to unseal what He has sealed!

Maybe in your bible.

Let me ask you who is "them which kill the body"?

The destruction of the soul does not happen at the Bema but it does at the Great White Throne of Judgement.

One more thing my friend.

Equating the Holy SEALING by God's Spirit of those that have placed their faith in the Shed Blood of Christ until the day of redemption to the destruction of the soul of the unsealed is just plain silly.

Please review what God says and not you 2 do..

The Bema...

1 Corinthians, Chapter 3

011: For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
012: Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
013: Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
014: If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
015: If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

AND

Revelation, Chapter 20

011: And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
012: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
013: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
014: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
015: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:

Need i show more scriptures?

Honered Brother Bill, your latest post seems like the last statement before a white flag of surrender, you have not, nor can you post any scriptures to refute my last several posts, not Brother Dales last posts...you seemingly are throwing out hopeless "life lines" to try and save a pet doctrine of yours with [smoke screens]that will not match up with scripture, Dear Sir, go back and go over the scriptures that have been posted and see the exegeses of thought and see if you can refute the claims of OSAS....are evil and proposterous! Stop using Eisegesis sir.

As taught by mainstream religion ie; Charles Stanley; et.el;.

Humbly yours sir:

bondservbant
barry

No mater how you 2 try to confuse the FACT of the simple TRUTH of Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God,whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.with your opinion driven division of the Word, it still remains unchanged and clear to all that lean not on their own understanding..

I see you all have not answered these questions yet.

When God passed between those pieces that Abram had laid out,that heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.

Was Abram circumcised?

And what was counted to him for righteousness?

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

Wildb if your heart has not been circumcised by Yahweh there is no way you are saved.

Without circumcision of heart all you have is religion!

I pray others on this board will have the love to back me up on this.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

quote:
Without circumcision of heart all you have is religion!

Isn't that exactly what we have been saying all along?

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Wildb if your heart has not been circumcised by Yahweh there is no way you are saved.

Without circumcision of heart all you have is religion!

I pray others on this board will have the love to back me up on this.

I concur my brother. My heart was circumcised with that circumcision made with out hand three days before I reported for duty to the US Navy 35 years ago.

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Origiallyposted by becausehelives:

quote:
Wildb if your heart has not been circumcised by Yahweh there is no way you are saved.

Without circumcision of heart all you have is religion!

I pray others on this board will have the love to back me up on this.

Exactly Brother i have always believed that....

As far as wildB's statement:

quote:
When God passed between those pieces that Abram had laid out,that heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.

Was Abram circumcised?

And what was counted to him for righteousness?

Gen 15:

6And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

7And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

8And he said, LORD God, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?

9And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.

Is that what your talking about wildb?

i surly believe it's cicumcision of the heart Brother, not the flesh.

i miss your point, of why you threw that in back a couple of posts...

Did you think that i or [we] believe that one should be physically circumcised?

To be more specific, no Abram at that time was not physically circumcised, but what was counted to him as righteousness was that he [Abram] believed God.

Romans 4
1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Are we on the same page here?

bondservant
barry

[Smile]

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

There have been made some statements here that i challange; but they are on a different subject.

i will post on another thread answers to these [false] doctrines.

It is my hope that if im wrong you guys can correct me, as IRON SHARPENS IRON, we can come to the truth.

My study of Eschatology is at best weak, and i would like to clear up some things..please see my other post.

Brother Drew and Brother Bill made statements in this thread on "Bema" and great white judgements; anyways two different [2] judgements.

bondservant
barry

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Now that i have answered your questions Brother Bill; can you look at these scriptures and see where i am coming from:

Departing from the Faith;

Perseverance of the Saints says that once you are truly saved, you will not (or cannot) depart from the faith. What does the Bible say?

Galatians 5:4 -- Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
(You can fall from grace if you accept a false gospel message!)

In the story of the Prodigal son, the Father said:
Luke 15:24 -- For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
('Dead' and 'lost' are words to describe an unsaved person, regardless of their affiliation with the Father (he was His son). The Father makes this statement twice!)

1 Corinthians 8:10-13
9: But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
10: For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
11: And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
(A brother - fellow Christian - can perish.)

2 Peter 2:15 -- Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
(You cannot go astray if you were never on the path.)

John 18:17 -- Then saith the damsel that kept the door unto Peter, Art not thou also one of this man's disciples? He saith, I am not.
(Peter lied, and denied Christ. Was he not saved yet, or did God simply overlook his sin? Note that Peter repented)

Luke 22:32 -- But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
(Saved Peter could not have "converted" lest he fell away first, and yes indeed, he fell away.)

1 Peter 2:11 -- Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
(They would not war against us if we could not be destroyed)

Romans 6:21-23
21: What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22: But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(There is a direct correlation between sin and death; and holiness and life. Paul was warning cleansed Christians about this!)

Isaiah 63:8-10
8: For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
9: In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
10: But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
(They rebelled, and He forsook them.)

Timothy 5:22 -- Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.
(Why would Paul tell Timothy to keep himself pure, if it were impossible for him to become impure, as OSAS teaches?)

GOD'S FAITHFULNESS

Some say that if we were able to lose our salvation, then God would not be faithful. But the Bible says that He is both faithful to save the righteous and faithful to damn the wicked. When you are judged, will you be righteous or wicked? Either way, God IS faithful!

Many verses are from the Old Testament because that is where God's faithfulness was often exhibited. Don't worry, He is still faithful!

2 Timothy 2:11-14
11: It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. (God's Faithfulness abides regardless of who we are)

Joshua 23:15-16
15: Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.
16: When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.

Jeremiah 18:7-10
7: At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8: If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9: And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10: If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Jeremiah 11:7-8
7: For I earnestly protested unto your fathers in the day that I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, even unto this day, rising early and protesting, saying, Obey my voice.
8: Yet they obeyed not, nor inclined their ear, but walked every one in the imagination of their evil heart: therefore I will bring upon them all the words of this covenant, which I commanded them to do; but they did them not. (He IS ALWAYS faithful, to do what He said He would do.)

Deuteronomy 8:19,20
19: And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish.
20: As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God.

Deuteronomy 7:9-10
9: Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
10: And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

1 Kings 11:37-38
37: And I will take thee, and thou shalt reign according to all that thy soul desireth, and shalt be king over Israel.
38: And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee, and wilt walk in my ways, and do that is right in my sight, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as David my servant did; that I will be with thee, and build thee a sure house, as I built for David, and will give Israel unto thee.
(As we know, Jeroboam did not live up to his end of the bargain, and you know what? God remained faithful NOT to do what He promised to do with Jeroboam.)

God Is Always Faithful

GOD'S PROGRAM

If you sin after you are saved, how do you become clean again? How are you forgiven? The Bible is clear.

1 John 1:9 -- If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Proverbs 28:13 -- He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

Ezekiel 33: 10-20
10: Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?
11: Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
12: Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
13: When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
14: Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15: If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16: None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
17: Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
18: When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
19: But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.

God has made it clear throughout His Word two things:

1) Salvation is a way of life, not an item

2) To be forgiven of sin, we must confess it and forsake it

WHO ARE THE TRUE CHRISTIANS?

What does the Bible say about the Christian? What does it mean to be a follower of Jesus Christ? Again, the Bible is clear.

Revelation 17:14
14: These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
(They are faithful.)

1 John 2:3,4
3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Revelation 21:27 - And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
(God's people are they who work no abomination, are not defiled, and do not make lies)

Revelation 14:12-13
12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13: And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
(Saints are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus Christ. "Sinning Saint" is an oxymoron!)

Revelation 12:11 -- And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
(The overcomers are willing to give their life)

1 John 3:10 -- In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Galatians 5:24 -- And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
(A child of God has crucified the flesh)

Romans 8:6 -- For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
(The mind of a Christian is spiritual, not carnal)

1 Peter 2:9 -- But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

That is who we are, and we live like it!

THE IMPUTATION OF GRACE

The Bible is clear that righteous is imputed to us by God's grace. Contrary to the theory of some, God did this in the Old Testament as well as the New.

This Imputation can also be 'un-done'.

Old Testament
Genesis 15:6 -- And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Romans 4:3 -- For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 4:6 -- Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

New Testament
2 Corinthians 5:21 -- For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Romans 4:24 -- But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Anti-Imputation
Ezekiel 33:10-20
10: Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?
11: Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
12: Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth
13: When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
14: Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15: If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16: None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
17: Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
18: When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
19: But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
20: Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.

This is the message that rings throughout the Bible, and it is said ever so clearly by Ezekiel! If the wicked turn from his sin, he will live. If the righteous turn to sin, he will die.

If God's imputed righteousness can be "undone" in the Old Testament, why not the New as well?

GOD'S COMMANDMENTS ARE NOT BURDENSOME

How many of you think that the commandments of Jesus are tiring, straining, and hard? Wake up call.

Matthew 11:30 -- For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light

1 John 5:3 -- For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Psalm 19:7-11
7: The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8: The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9: The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10: More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11: Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

Psalm 119:14 I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies, as much as in all riches.

-- To live an unholy life is burdensome --

Jeremiah 2:19 -- Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord GOD of hosts.

Proverbs 5:22 -- His own iniquities shall take the wicked himself, and he shall be holden with the cords of his sins.

THE ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED DOCTRINE

After reading what the Bible says about salvation and those departing from the faith, let's look at Biblical examples of OSAS.

Genesis 3:3-4
3: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4: And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

The lie of OSAS has been around since the beginning of creation. It was the very first thing that Satan used to get Eve, and He uses it yet today! Don't worry, little child, sin cannot destroy you, for it is no longer an issue!

Jude 3-4
3: Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4: For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude writes that we should earnestly contend for the faith, which is the opposite of what these certain men were teaching, which was a license for immorality, allowing true Grace to coincide with sin. This is OSAS, that sin can coincide with grace.

1 Thessalonians 4:7,8
7: For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8: He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

Many OSAS preachers despise the holiness that God has called us to by permitting sin.

THE BIBLICAL CONCLUSION

So thus we conclude:

We are to repent to get salvation
Salvation is a GIFT not earned by us
But Salvation can be negated by sin
And can be retrieved again through
sincere confession and forsaking.

That:

The unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God
The Righteous can become unrighteous through sin
The unrighteous can turn to God to become righteous again

And that:

If our salvation is lost through sin and we stray away, God is faithful to fulfill His promise of forgiveness if we come back. If we do not come back, God is faithful to fulfill His promise to destroy us.

And thus, we conclude:

God wants to save us through a covenant, or agreement with us. He wants us to have a continual relationship with Him, walking in the Light, by which we are kept in His saving power.

Do not fear, my friend. Stick close to God, and you cannot go wrong.

your Brother and fellow
bondservant of Yahoshua Ha Meshiach

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

No mater how you try to confuse the FACT of the simple TRUTH of Ephesians 4:30 "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God,whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption" with your opinion driven division of the Word evidenced by its total ignorance of the Mystery. It still remains unchanged and clear to all the saints that understand the Mystery.

Understand the mystery and you will understand Once Sealed always Sealed until the day of redemption.

Romans, Chapter 16, 025: Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of themystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
1 Corinthians, Chapter 2, 007: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery,even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1 Corinthians, Chapter 15, 051: Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Ephesians, Chapter 1, 009: Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Ephesians, Chapter 3, 003: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery;(as I wrote afore in few words,
Ephesians, Chapter 3, 004: Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mysteryof Christ)
Ephesians, Chapter 3, 009: And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Ephesians, Chapter 5, 032: This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church
Ephesians, Chapter 6, 019: And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Colossians, Chapter 1, 026: Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Colossians, Chapter 1, 027: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Colossians, Chapter 2, 002: That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgment of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
Colossians, Chapter 4, 003: Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Sorry Brother Bill.........your gonna just keep on with the same scriptures and not look evidently at all the scriptures that pertain to exposing the [FALSE DOCTRINE] of OSAS.

i have given perhaps 75 or more scriptures that refute your understanding of Ephesians, and portions of Galations.

So are you saying that you Know what "mystery" means and or is, and that im ignorant of the "mystery" Brother?

1.Mark 4:11 (Whole Chapter)
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

2.Romans 11:25 (Whole Chapter)
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

3.Romans 16:25 (Whole Chapter)
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

4.1 Corinthians 2:7 (Whole Chapter)
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

5.1 Corinthians 15:51 (Whole Chapter)
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

6.Ephesians 1:9 (Whole Chapter)
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

7.Ephesians 3:3 (Whole Chapter)
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

8.Ephesians 3:4 (Whole Chapter)
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

9.Ephesians 3:9 (Whole Chapter)
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10.Ephesians 5:32 (Whole Chapter)
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

11.Ephesians 6:19 (Whole Chapter)
And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

12.Colossians 1:26 (Whole Chapter)
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

13.Colossians 1:27 (Whole Chapter)
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

14.Colossians 2:2 (Whole Chapter)
That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

15.Colossians 4:3 (Whole Chapter)
Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

16.2 Thessalonians 2:7 (Whole Chapter)
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

17.1 Timothy 3:9 (Whole Chapter)
Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

18.1 Timothy 3:16 (Whole Chapter)
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

19.Revelation 1:20 (Whole Chapter)
The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

20.Revelation 10:7 (Whole Chapter)
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

21.Revelation 17:5 (Whole Chapter)
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

22.Revelation 17:7 (Whole Chapter)
And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Sometime Brother Bill it seems you talk in riddles, or either you need to simplify things so as i can understand where your coming from.

Do you want me to go back and explain each scripture you have used with the word mystery in it?

OriganallyPosted by wildb

quote:
No mater how you try to confuse the FACT of the simple TRUTH of Ephesians 4:30 "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God,whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption" with your opinion driven division of the Word evidenced by its total ignorance of the Mystery. It still remains unchanged and clear to all the saints that understand the Mystery.

Understand the mystery and you will understand Once Sealed always Sealed until the day of redemption.

Romans, Chapter 16, 025: Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of themystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
1 Corinthians, Chapter 2, 007: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery,even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1 Corinthians, Chapter 15, 051: Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Ephesians, Chapter 1, 009: Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Ephesians, Chapter 3, 003: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery;(as I wrote afore in few words,
Ephesians, Chapter 3, 004: Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mysteryof Christ)
Ephesians, Chapter 3, 009: And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Ephesians, Chapter 5, 032: This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church
Ephesians, Chapter 6, 019: And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

What does Paul mean Brother Bill in the vs. Eph 4:30 warning "NOT TO GREIVE the Holy Sprit of God" whereby you are sealed?

So if you heed not the warning "Not to Greive" what is your consequence? Burned rewards?
Falling away?
What my Brother?

There is not a "mystery" in which you have private interpetation Brother...I'm sure you know that.

Also you stated:

quote:
with your opinion driven division of the Word evidenced by its total ignorance of the Mystery. It still remains unchanged and clear to all the saints that understand the Mystery.

Brother thats plain ludicrous, thats your opinion; that the above is my opinion?

Come on Brother you can certainly articulate the english language and your knowledge of the scriptures better that that...

If you cannot answer even one scripture that refutes your position on a doctrine, then Brother you need to put your doctrine on a shelf til you can fit all scriptures together. i have i think answered every single scripture you have given, you have not answered perhaps at least 50 i have given you. You come back to "once sealed always sealed, your version of osas.

i dont think that you have read every post in this thread, have you? At your time of reading this post have you read every post in this thread Brother Bill?

im not a good debater, nor orator by any means, but i can tell when some one gives in and reverts back to "pet" scriptures without using the whole of God's word, just to keep from looking at the possibility of "i might be wrong"!

ive been in the Lord since Jan 18, 1983; how do i know that date; because i changed, my entire "want to " changed; it was no longer i but "Christ".

I have seen a LOT of religion, a lot of "churched folks" and a lot of "trash" in the "name" of the LORD that HE has nothing to do with. i have been hammered by "experts" [so called] on doctrine and have seen errors in my "theology" and corrected my position to line up with God and HIS word.

im not easily shaken, [by HIS grace and Mercy], and i am not "MOVED" by every wind of doctrine such as OSAS, and osas!

The only way is Yahweh's way, God is in control and HIS word will stand.

You have not, and cannot prove by scripture how you are clear on your stance, on simple rules of debate you fail and fail miserably; you cannot answer scripture that refutes OSAS, and you cannot produce any that prove there is any validity in the False Evil DOCTRINE of OSAS!

I love you , even tho i have never met you,and i can say that because of the LOVE of God in me.

I rebuke you in Yahoshua's name and admonish you to "Study to show yourself approved" a workman that need not be ashamed.

Im being careful in this rebuke because i believe that you earnestly believe what you have posted, i donot think there is guile nor discord in your heart sir, but all in all your doctrine and defense thereof will not stand at the judgement seat of Christ, it will fall as chatter dear Brother, but our words toward one another will be judged.

If you care to refute the some 100+ scriptures please take them line by line and we will go over them.

In love
bondservant
barry

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

I thank God thru Jesus Christ , that my salvation has been everlastingly secured from the 1st hour I believed.

Your teaching that it ain't is just plain silly..

Repent while the day is yet called day.

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

Proverbs 28:9 “He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.”

“He that hath my commandments, and Keep Them, he it is that loveth me: And he that loveth me Shall Be Loved of My Father.”(John 14:21)

“IF a man love me, he will Keep My Words: And my Father Will Love Him.” (John 14:23)

“IF ye Keep My Commandments, ye Shall Abide in My Love.” (John 15:10)

Yahweh alone will have the final say in who gains entrance to eternal life.

but for sure the man or woman that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, will not be part of that Eternal Kingdom!

there is a way that seemeth right to men but the end there of is destruction.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
I thank God thru Jesus Christ , that my salvation has been everlastingly secured from the 1st hour I believed.

Your teaching that it ain't is just plain silly..

Repent while the day is yet called day.

Back to the top for the baseball fans.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Proverbs 28:9 “He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.”

“He that hath my commandments, and Keep Them, he it is that loveth me: And he that loveth me Shall Be Loved of My Father.”(John 14:21)

“IF a man love me, he will Keep My Words: And my Father Will Love Him.” (John 14:23)

“IF ye Keep My Commandments, ye Shall Abide in My Love.” (John 15:10)

Yahweh alone will have the final say in who gains entrance to eternal life.

but for sure the man or woman that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, will not be part of that Eternal Kingdom!

there is a way that seemeth right to men but the end there of is destruction.

There is no "if" in Christ only a "is"!

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

barrykind

I missed your post before. I believe that eternal security is for true Christians, not just professing Christians. I believe that a true Christian has been regenerated, and is led by the Holy Spirit.

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Originally Posted by wildb:

quote:
I thank God thru Jesus Christ , that my salvation has been everlastingly secured from the 1st hour I believed.

Your teaching that it ain't is just plain silly..

Repent while the day is yet called day.

If you read anything we have posted Brother Bill; Your secure as long as you Follow Yahoshua [Jesus]; YOUR NOT SECURE IF YOU WALK AWAY; despise the Spirit of Grace, walk in INIQUITY; and you shall be CUT OFF BROTHER!!!!

Scriptures:

Numbers 15:31
Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

Psalm 28:3
Draw me not away with the wicked, and with the workers of iniquity, which speak peace to their neighbours, but mischief is in their hearts.

Psalm 38:18
For I will declare mine iniquity; I will be sorry for my sin.

Proverbs 21:15
It is joy to the just to do judgment: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.

Isaiah 13:11
And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Jeremiah 14:10
Thus saith the LORD unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the LORD doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins.

Ezekiel 3:20
Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Matthew 24:12
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Romans 6
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

wildb CAN'T you see that your only secure as long as you follow HIS RULES;

Romans also warns we CANNOT lend our members again to SIN...FOR THE WAGES OF SIN ARE DEATH: DEATH DEATH DEATH!!!! Spiritual DEATH!!!!!!!!!

Brother are YOU IN SIN; DO you have a BESETTING SIN that is plaguing you?
Why else would you make excuse?

Why would you believe that once you were sealed all YOUR PAST< PRESENT < AND FUTURE SINS ARE ALREADY Forgiven?????

Did you not hear when we posted::

1 John 2
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

There is many. many, many references to REFUTE the OSAS Doctrine of Devils Sir:

One must realize how we are Secure [Eternally] in HIM!

It is clearly defined in scripture:

"IF" is a conditional word and it is used many times in Scripture and it represents a "condition"

Don't think for one moment that Our Precious Saviour, Yahoshua HaMasiach shed HIS precious Blood so you or anyone else could live a life of SIN and INIQUITY and enter into Heaven......... Not gonna happen ever sir....we love HIM we WILL KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS and HIS WORD; we will do everything in our power to please HIM.

Mark my words BROTHER for these words will bear witness in the JUDGEMENT SIR!

love
bondservant
barry

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Sister Carol Posted:

quote:
barrykind

I missed your post before. I believe that eternal security is for true Christians, not just professing Christians. I believe that a true Christian has been regenerated, and is led by the Holy Spirit.

As the above post i think you know how i see the scripture. [Smile]

i surely believe that NO DEVIl, No Man, women, boy nor girl; nor pricipality or spiritual powers can pluck us from the Father's hand.

If we turn from following Yahoshua [Jesus], there is NO armour for our BACK...

If we thrown down and neglect so great a salvation; if we turn to sin and fall therein with no repentance...WE ARE CUT OFF;

where is that cut off point Yahweh Knows..

But the scripture is so clear to me, we DO NOT HAVE TO SIN; BUT!!! If we do we have an advocate with the Father ; Yahoshua [Jesus] Christ the righteous, and might i add HE IS QUICK to forgive our sin..

i too believe that eternally secure persons must be "regenerated" professors and not posessing the Spirit of God are not even part of the kingdom...Me thinks where we differ is i can see one as walking away from salvation.. because a "regenerated" person or one that posses the Holy Spirit and returns to live in unrepented sin is INIQUITY....and in very much danger of being CUT OFF!

[Sorry] Missed commenting on the part about being led by the Spirit:

We are to "walk" in the Spirit, one reason so we "WILL NOT" fulfill the lusts of the flesh; for to continue to "fulfill" the lusts of the flesh will cause this scripture to come into effect in ones Life:

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Galatians 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

inlove
IHS
bondservant
barry

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

Mark my words BROTHER for these words will bear witness in the JUDGEMENT SIR!

love
bondservant
barry

And please do tell the baseball fans to which judgement you refer?

The Bema or the Great White Throne?

Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :

Better be careful there Wild B. I think you are one of people who have taken the mark of the beast ( you know us Sunday worshippers) [spiny]

betty

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

barrykind

quote:
i too believe that eternally secure persons must be "regenerated" professors and not posessing the Spirit of God are not even part of the kingdom...Me thinks where we differ is i can see one as walking away from salvation.. because a "regenerated" person or one that posses the Holy Spirit and returns to live in unrepented sin is INIQUITY....and in very much danger of being CUT OFF!

I think where we differ is I don't believe we possess the Holy Spirit. I believe that HE possesses us. And it is impossible for one who is possessed by the Holy Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God, to turn away from Them.

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

There is only one Judgement at the Coming of Yahoshua haMasiach.

Timothy 4:1
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

bondservant
barry

Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :

There are two Judgments. The Judgment Seat of Christ in Heaven where Christians shall have their works judged and the White Throne Judgment where only sinners will be judged.
betty

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Right on Betty!

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Sister Betty stated:

quote:
There are two Judgments. The Judgment Seat of Christ in Heaven where Christians shall have their works judged and the White Throne Judgment where only sinners will be judged.
betty

Please give full scripture references for your hypothesis.

You cant just make that type of statement and not be called to task.

So please list all the scriptures that make you think that.

bondservant
barry

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Not every believer is ambitious for the Lord, but every believer is going to appear before the Lord; and now is the time to prepare. The Judgment Seat of Christ is that future event when God’s people will stand before the Saviour as their works are judged and rewarded (see Rom. 14:8-10). Paul was ambitious for the Lord because he wanted to meet Him with confidence and not shame (1 John 2:28).

The term “judgment seat” comes from the Greek word bema, which was the platform in Greek towns where orations were made or decisions handed down by rulers (see Matt. 27:19; Acts 12:21; 18:12). It was also the place where the awards were given out to the winners in the annual Olympic Games. This “judgment seat” must not be confused with the Great White Throne from which Christ will judge the wicked (Rev. 20:11-15). Because of the gracious work of Christ on the cross, believers will not face their sins (John 5:24; Rom. 8:1); but we will have to give an account of our works and service for the Lord.

The Judgment Seat of Christ will be a place of revelation; for the word appear means “be revealed.” As we live and work here on earth, it is relatively easy for us to hide things and pretend; but the true character of our works will be exposed before the searching eyes of the Saviour. He will reveal whether our works have been good or bad (“worthless”). The character of our service will be revealed (1 Cor. 3:13) as well as the motives that impelled us (1 Cor. 4:5).

It will also be a place of reckoning as we give an account of our ministries (Rom. 14:10-12). If we have been faithful it will be a place of reward and recognition (1 Cor. 3:10-15; 4:1-6). For those of us who have been faithful, it will be a time of rejoicing as we glorify the Lord by giving our rewards back to Him in worship and in praise.

(Wiersbe)

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Please sister Carol read this :

we are drifting from the Original thread and this topic is in the thread End time Error:

But ill post it here for you to see:

What is the Doctrine of Premillennial Dispensationalism?

Although few people would recognize it from its technical name, most Christians have been exposed to it. The teaching goes like this:

The second coming of Christ will take place in two phases. In the first phase, Jesus will return secretly to accomplish three things:

1) Resurrect believers (who have died)

2) Rapture believers - Delivering them from the coming tribulation

3) Judge believers

Jesus will then return to heaven, taking all believers with him. After the 7 year tribulation period is over, Jesus will again return to Earth (phase 2) to set up his kingdom. At this time, he will sit upon the throne of David and reign from earthly Jerusalem for 1000 years. After the 1000 years are over, Jesus will do three things:

1) Resurrect Unbelievers

2) Judge Unbelievers

3) Create New Heavens and a New Earth.

The Biblical Teaching on the Resurrection Refutes This Doctrine
According to Premillennial Dispensationalism, the resurrection of the believers will take place 1007 years before the resurrection of unbelievers. What about this? Does the Bible teach that there will be two resurrections separated by a period of 1007 years?

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation.

John 5:28,29

This passage tells us clearly that there is an hour (one point in time) coming in which all (not some) that are in the graves shall come forth (be resurrected). Some will be resurrected unto life and some unto condemnation. There will be one resurrection but two destinations.

So does the Bible teach that there will be two resurrections - one for believers and one for unbelievers separated by 1007 years? No! The Bible teaches that both believers and unbelievers will be resurrected at the same time.

Since we only need one verse to refute a false teaching, we could stop right here. This doctrine is a false doctrine! If even one verse of scripture contradicts a teaching, that teaching is wrong. You might say "But what about this verse or what about that verse?" If so, you're missing the point. If your interpretation of those verses is correct, it will not contradict this verse. Let's look at another passage.

But this I [Paul] confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and the prophets: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Acts 24: 14,15

Here we have Paul the Apostle telling us what he believes (surely we know that he is right). He tells us that there will be a (one) resurrection of the dead. Who will be there? Both the just and the unjust. Now, if I told you that I was going to give you a car, would you expect two?

Of course not! You would expect one. So when the Bible says that there will be a resurrection and that both the saved and the unsaved will be there, it eliminates the possibility of there being two resurrections separated by 1007 years.

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time [THE GREAT TRIBULATION]: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Daniel 12:1-3

Here again we have believers and unbelievers being raised at the same time. Notice when it takes place. After the tribulation. Scripture is so clear that it is hard to see how someone could miss it. Most people, however, do not get their beliefs from what the Bible actually teaches, but from what someone tells them it teaches.

The Biblical Teaching on the Judgment Refutes This Doctrine

Premillennial Dispensationalism teaches not only that there will be two resurrections, but also that there will also be two judgments. Does the Bible teach that there will be two judgments - one for believers and one for unbelievers separated by 1007 years?

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commented all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Acts 17:30-31

God has appointed a (one) day in which he will judge the whole world. Not two separate days 1007 years apart. How can so many people believe this doctrine, when it is so clearly refuted in scripture?

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory; And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep oh his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: ... Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: ... And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Matthew 25:31-34,41,46

This is a passage has been twisted by many today (2 Pet. 3:16), but it means exactly what it says. When Jesus Christ comes, he will sit in judgment over all (both believers and unbelievers). The saved and the lost will both be judged at the same time, not 1007 years apart.

People used to talk about judgment day. But you don't hear that term much anymore. This false teaching has changed judgment day into judgment days. The Bible, however, speaks of the day (not days) of judgment.

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust [UNBELIEVERS] unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2 Peter 2:9

Unbelievers will be judged on the day of judgment.

Herein is our love made perfect, that we [BELIEVERS] may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

1 John 4:17

Believers will be judged on the day of judgment.

Believers and unbelievers will both be judged on the day of judgment. It couldn't be any clearer. Both will be judged on the same day, not on two different days 1007 years apart.

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against THE DAY OF JUDGMENT and perdition of ungodly men. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2 Peter 3:7,10

This passage tells us that on the day of judgment the heavens and the earth will be burned up. We have previously seen that both believers and unbelievers are judged on this same day of judgment. So the heavens and the earth will be burned up the same day in which everyone is judged, despite what Premillennial Dispensationalism teaches. Let God be true, but every man a liar (Rom. 3:4).

The Biblical Teaching on the Last Day Refutes This Doctrine

Premillennial Dispensationalism teaches that believers will be resurrected 1007 years before eternity (the end of time). Is this true?

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him [BELIEVERS], may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:40

No. It's not true. Believers will be resurrected on the last day of human history. How could you have 1007 years after the last day? If you did, it would not have been the last day. And if it is the last day, there can't be any other days after it. The Bible makes it so clear. All you have to do is believe what is says. Premillennial Dispensationalism is a lie!

He that rejecteth me and receiveth not my words [UNBELIEVERS], hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

John 12:48

According to this verse, Unbelievers will be judged on the last day. We have already seen that believers will be resurrected on this same last day. The Bible says that both of these events will take place at the same time. Premillennial Dispensationalism says that they will not. Who are you going to believe? God or men?

The Biblical Teaching on the End of the World Refutes This Doctrine

The Bible tells us about the end of the world.

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matthew 13:24-30

Here we have the parable of the wheat and tares. The interpretation of the parable is given a little further on in the chapter.

He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom [believers]; but the tares are the children of the wicked one [unbelievers]; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Matthew 13:37-43

According to Jesus, believers and unbelievers will not be separated until the end of this world. Premillennial Dispensationalism teaches that they will be separated (at the pre-tribulation rapture) 1007 years before the end of this world. Which are you going to believe? What do you think of a teaching that contradicts the Bible in so many places? More importantly, what does Jesus think of it?

So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans [A FALSE DOCTRINE], which thing I [JESUS] hate.

Revelation 2:15

Jesus hates false doctrine. Do you?

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked [UNBELIEVERS] from among the just [BELIEVERS], And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:47-50

This passage tells us that the Judgment of believers will take place at the same time as the judgment of unbelievers. It also tells us that both will take place at the end of the world.

The Biblical Teaching on the New Heavens and New Earth Refutes This Doctrine

Premillennial Dispensationalism teaches that there will not be new heavens and a new earth until 1000 years after the Second Coming of Christ. Is this true?

But the day of the Lord [THE DAY OF CHRIST'S COMING] will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

2 Peter 3:10-13

The present heavens and earth will be destroyed at the Second Coming of Christ, not 1000 years after. We will also have new heavens and a new earth at that time.

Jesus must remain in heaven until the time comes for the restoration of all things. This will include, not only the resurrection of our bodies, but also the renewal of the earth.

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Romans 8:22-23

Jesus must remain in heaven and will not come back to earth until the time comes for us to have a new earth.

The Biblical Teaching on The Reign of Christ Refutes This Doctrine

When did Jesus begin to reign upon the throne of David? Premillennial Dispensationalism teaches that this event has not yet occurred. It teaches that Jesus will sit upon the throne of David and begin to reign from earthly Jerusalem at the second coming. Is this true?

Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Acts 2 29-33

This passage is very clear. When God promised David that Christ would sit upon his throne, He was speaking about the resurrection and ascension of Christ - not his second coming. This promise was fulfilled when Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father. Jesus is reigning now, not from earthly Jerusalem but from heavenly Jerusalem (Heb. 12:22, Gal. 4:25-26).

Then cometh the end, when he [JESUS] shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

1 Corinthians 15:24-28

Here again, we see that Jesus is reigning now. He will continue to reign until he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be put under his feet will be death (by the resurrection) at the second coming. At that point, Jesus shall deliver the kingdom over to the Father.

bondservant

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

The "Bema seat" (or judgment seat) was an elevated seat, located in Corinth. At this seat in the square, Roman magistrates would sit and administer justice. Athletes may also have appeared here and received rewards for having distinguished themselves.

If a person is unsaved and dies in their sin, they will be judged at the "great white throne judgment" following the Millennium. If a person is a born-again believer in Jesus, they will be judged at the "judgment seat of Christ." Salvation is not an issue at this judgment. Their sins have already been forgiven. A person might then ask, how will we be judged? and for what will we be judged?

At this judgment, we must give an account of our life and what we did or did not do for the Lord. The believer's service to God will be reviewed and rewarded. For his lack of service or doing certain things, he will suffer loss. We will be held responsible for the things we did in our body. Every hidden thing will be made known. Every secret thing we said will be proclaimed; nothing will be hid. All believers must appear before this judgment seat.

2 Cor. 5:
10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Romans 14:
10: But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11: For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12: So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Some people will receive crowns in heaven as a special kind of reward for their sacrificial living while on earth.

The twenty-four elders seated around God's throne wear golden crowns and white garments (Revelation 4:4).

While we don't know the identity of these individuals or even exactly what the crowns represent, we do know these people overcame intense difficulties. The Greek word used for "crown" in this passage is stephanos: a victor's crown.

Five different crowns are mentioned in Scripture:

The imperishable crown for those who exhibit disciplined lives (1 Corinthians 9:2527).

The crown of rejoicing for those who lead others to Christ (1 Thessalonians 2:1920, Philippians 4:1).

The crown of righteousness for those who love his appearing (2 Timothy 4:Cool.

The crown of glory for those who faithfully shepherd the flock (1 Peter 5:24).

The crown of life for those who overcome spiritual battles (James 1:12, Revelation 2:10).

The above list is probably more suggestive than it is exhaustive. God may hand out crowns to many other faithful believers and for many other purposes. These crowns won't be awarded so we can show off our earthly accomplishments. Nor will they be for the purpose of making a fashion statement. I believe that these crowns signify different positions and assignments throughout eternity.

1 Thess. 4:
14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Rev. 20:
4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:

and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

John saw thrones and they sat upon them, AND HE SAW the souls of them who had been beheaded and they lived and reigned.

The dead in Christ whom the Lord brings with Him, and we which are alive and remain caught-up to EVER be with the Lord!!!!!

5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

THE SECOND RESURRECTION:

11: And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

There are no LIVING before the Great White Throne!!!!!!

None of the Righteous Dead in Christ before the Great White Throne!!!!

John 14:
2: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3: And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)

The first resurrection. If there is a first, there must be others.

And there are!

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

back to the topic ....Once Saved Always Saved ??

Wildb said

quote:
There is no "if" in Christ only a "is"!

Rom 11:21-22 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

sounds like He can unseal what He has sealed to me!

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Romans 11:21

The gospel is the greatest riches of every place where it is. As therefore the righteous rejection of the unbelieving Jews, was the occasion of so large a multitude of the Gentiles being reconciled to God, and at peace with him; the future receiving of the Jews into the church would be such a change, as would resemble a general resurrection of the dead in sin to a life of righteousness.

Abraham was as the root of the church. The Jews continued branches of this tree till, as a nation,they rejected the Messiah; after that, their relation to Abraham and to God was, as it were, cut off.

The Gentiles were grafted into this tree in their room; being admitted into the church of God. Multitudes were made heirs of Abraham's faith, holiness and blessedness. It is the natural state of every one of us, to be wild by nature. Conversion is as the grafting in of wild branches into the good olive. The wild olive was often ingrafted into the fruitful one when it began to decay, and this not only brought forth fruit, but caused the decaying olive to revive and flourish.

The Gentiles, of free grace, had been grafted in to share advantages. They ought therefore to beware of self-confidence, and every kind of pride or ambition ; lest, having only a dead faith, and an empty profession, they should turn from God, and forfeit their privileges. If we stand at all, it is by faith; we are guilty and helpless in ourselves, and are to be humble, watchful, afraid of self-deception, or of being overcome by temptation.

Not only are we at first justified by faith, but kept to the end in that justified state by faith only; yet, by a faith which is not alone, but which worketh by love to God and man. (Ro 11:22-32)

(Matthew Henry)

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
back to the topic ....Once Saved Always Saved ??

Wildb said
quote:
There is no "if" in Christ only a "is"!
Rom 11:21-22 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

sounds like He can unseal what He has sealed to me!

Then it would read: otherwise God shalt unsealeth thee.

Christ was also was cut off according to Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,.

What did that sound like to you? Well it is clear to all the rest that being cut off has nothing to do with eternal condemnation..

John Willson serves as one of the Bible Correspondence Instructors for Prison Mission Association, and is a good friend to Berean Bible Society. He has been a welcome contributor to the pages of the Berean Searchlight for many years.

The Believing Remnant, Preserved and Secure

By John Willson

There has been much debate about the security of believers during this dispensation of Grace, but what about believers in the Old Testament, and during the Kingdom Age? By following the references found in the Scofield Study Bible, we can trace the believing remnant of Israel, and draw some conclusions about the security of believers in other dispensations.

There has always been a remnant since the nation began with Abraham in Genesis 12. We refer to these people as the believing remnant because Romans 9:6-7 says, "...for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel, neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but in Isaac shall Thy seed be called." Throughout Israel's history we see that the majority of this nation was unbelieving, or as God said of them in Romans 10:21, "...a disobedient and gainsaying people." However, there was always the believing few, as Paul states in Romans 11:5: "Even so at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."

Elijah thought he was the only faithful one left in Israel, yet God said to him, "I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal." In Isaiah's day the number may have been smaller, because Isaiah 1:9 says, "Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and...Gomorrah." Isaiah also prophesied the return of the future remnant during the seven-year tribulation (Isaiah 10:20-22). There are many references to the believing remnant throughout Isaiah and Jeremiah, as there are in the other prophetical books. In the four Gospels we see the believing remnant in those who "...looked for redemption in Jerusalem" (Luke 2:36-38). These would be those like Simeon, Anna, Zacharias and Elizabeth, Mary, John the Baptist and all those who believed God's promises. The Lord referred to them as the little flock, for in Luke 12:32 He said, "Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the Kingdom."

Matthew 24 is a lengthy prophecy of the seven-year tribulation. It is addressed primarily to the believers who will be on earth at that time. Verses 3-12 speak of sorrows and persecutions, wars and famines. Then verse 13 says, "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." This will be the fulfillment of Zechariah 13:8-9, because they will be that third part of the nation brought through the fire of the tribulation. These verses read, "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die, but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people, and they shall say, The LORD is my God."

This verse in Matthew 24:13 does not mean that a person must "endure to the end" or lose his salvation as some teach. This verse is saying that he that lasts or lives through that period will be saved through it and enter into the Kingdom. As God said, "And I will bring the third part through the fire...."

It is very possible that the prophecy of the 144,000 in Revelation 7:4 is referring to this remnant. It reads, "...there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel." If they were sealed, they were secure, and it did not depend on their endurance. This is similar to the truth for us in Ephesians 4:30, "...ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

We know the believing remnant during Jesus' ministry was secure as John 10:28 states: "...they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (see also verse 29). If these kingdom believers were safe and secure, those whom God will bring through the tribulation will be also.

This brings up the question of the security of all the Old Testament saints. There is no example of a true believer losing his salvation or fearing that he would lose it. Also there is no verse that indicates that these Old Testament saints had to maintain good works to remain saved. The word preserve as used in several Old Testament verses indicates the safety and security of God's people:

Psalm 97:10—"...He preserveth the souls of His saints...."

Psalm 37:28—"For the LORD...forsaketh not His saints, they are preserved forever...."

Psalm 145:20—"The LORD preserveth all them that love Him."

Those whom the Lord knows are often called saints, meaning those HE has sanctified and set apart for Himself. Those kingdom saints were promised eternal life in the future Kingdom, and they knew that God would keep His promise. David's confidence is expressed in Psalm 23:6, "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever." Job was confident when he said, "I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth...yet in my flesh shall I see God" (Job 19:25-26).

Tracing the remnant through the Bible is an interesting study, not only in the Old Testament and in the four gospels, but also through Acts. Also they are addressed in the Jewish-Christian epistles of James, Peter, and John. James writes to the twelve tribes scattered abroad (James 1:1) and Peter addresses them as the strangers scattered (I Peter 1:1). Then John writes of them often in the great prophecy of Revelation. The remnant was always a minority, even as true believers today are a small minority, yet God gives to all His people the assurance of eternal life, regardless of the dispensation they are under.

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

[B]There is no "if" in Christ only a "is"!

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

one verse at a time I am going to post all the if as they pertain to salvation...

I am very well versed in the side of perseverance you insist to post but there is a balance to every issue!

the scriptures either compliment each other or contradict each other....

I believe the complement each other......

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

God bless you brother Dale;

The Word of God is consistent in its context.

Jesus told about the planting of seed in the different soils, the wayside, the shallow rocky, and the deep rich. It was only in the deep rich soil did the seed take root, and produce fruit, was able to persevere.

Not everyone that knows the Gospel and says "Lord Lord", is known by Christ.

Those who are known will persevere for none can pluck them out of the Father's Hand.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
[B]There is no "if" in Christ only a "is"!

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

one verse at a time I am going to post all the if as they pertain to salvation...

I am very well versed in the side of perseverance you insist to post but there is a balance to every issue!

the scriptures either compliment each other or contradict each other....

I believe the complement each other......

I also believe scripture must be taken in fully as they are rightfully divided.

Those that understand the Mystery rest in the truth that we are eternally secure in Christ and, thankfully, have the assurance of it. (Rom. 6:23, Eph. 1:13,14).

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world,.... The sins of it, the governing vices of it, which the men of the world are addicted to, and immersed in; for the whole world lies in wickedness, and which are of a defiling nature: the phrase is Rabbinical; it is said (q),

"he that studies not in the law in this world, but is defiled , "with the pollutions of the world", what is written of him? and they took him, and cast him without:''

these, men may escape, abstain from, and outwardly reform, with respect unto, and yet be destitute of the grace of God; so that this can be no instance of the final and total apostasy of real saints; for the house may be swept and garnished with an external reformation; persons may be outwardly righteous before men, have a form of godliness and a name to live, and yet be dead in trespasses and sins; all which they may have

through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. The Vulgate Latin, and all the Oriental versions, read, our Lord, and the latter leave out, "and Saviour"; by which "knowledge" is meant, not a spiritual experimental knowledge of Christ, for that is eternal life, the beginning, pledge, and earnest of it; but a notional knowledge of Christ, or a profession of knowledge of him, for it may be rendered "acknowledgment"; or rather the Gospel of Christ, which, being only notionally received, may have such an effect on men, as outwardly to reform their lives, at least in some instances, and for a while, in whose hearts it has no place. Now if, after all this knowledge and reformation,

they are again entangled therein; in the pollutions of the world, in worldly lusts, which are as gins, pits and snares:

and overcome; by them, so as to be laden with them, and led away, and entirely governed and influenced by them:

the latter end, or state,

is worse with them than the beginning; see Matthew 12:45. Their beginning, or first estate, was that in which they were born, a state of darkness, ignorance, and sin, and in which they were brought up, and was either the state of Judaism, or of Gentilism; their next estate was an outward deliverance and escape from the error of the one, or of the other, and an embracing and professing the truth of the Christian religion, joined with a becoming external conversation; and this their last estate was an apostasy from the truth of the Gospel they had professed, a reception of error and heresy, and a relapse into sin and immorality, which made their case worse than it was at first; for, generally, such persons are more extravagant in sinning; are like raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; and are seldom, or ever, recovered; and by their light, knowledge, and profession, their punishment will be more aggravated, and become intolerable.

(q) Zohar in Gen. fol. 104. 3. Vid. Bechinot Olam, p. 178.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world - This does not necessarily mean that they had been true Christians, and had fallen from grace. People may outwardly reform, and escape from the open corruptions which prevail around them, or which they had themselves practiced, and still have no true grace at heart.

Through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesses Christ - Neither does This imply that they were true Christians, or that they had ever had any saving knowledge of the Redeemer. There is a knowledge of the doctrines and duties of religion which may lead sinners to abandon their outward vices, which has no connection with saving grace. They may profess religion, and may Know enough of religion to understand that it requires them to abandon their vicious habits, and still never be true Christians.

They are again entangled therein and overcome - The word rendered "entangled," (ἐμπλέκω emplekō,) from which is derived our word "implicate," means to braid in, to interweave; then to involve in, to entangle. It means here that they become implicated in those vices like an animal that is entangled in a net.

The latter end is worse with them than the beginning - This is usually the case. Apostates become worse than they were before their professed conversion. "Reformed" drunkards, if they go back to their "cups" again, become more abandoned than ever. Thus, it is with those who have been addicted to any habits of vice, and who profess to become religious, and then fall away. The "reasons" for this may be:

(1) that they are willing now to show to others that they are no longer under the restraints by which they had professedly bound themselves;

(2) that God gives them up to indulgence with fewer restraints than formerly; and,

(3) their old companions in sin may be at special pains to court their society, and to lead them into temptation, in order to obtain a triumph over virtue and religion.

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

IS THE LAW STILL VALID?

Are we yet "under the law"? Does the Law of God still exist? Aren't we under Grace?

Paul and the other apostles wrote that we are no longer under the law, but they also wrote:

Against false gods - 1 Corinthians 8:4-6
Against graven images - Acts 19:23-27
Against greed - Colossians 3:5
Against idolatry - Ephesians 5:5
Against profanity - Ephesians 5:4, Colossians 3:5
Against murder - Revelation 21:8, 1 John 3:15
Against adultery - 1 Corinthians 6:9, Galatians 5:19-21
Against stealing - Ephesians 4:28, Titus 2:10
Against lying - 1 Corinthians 6:9, Ephesians 4:25, Colossians 3:8,9
For Obedience - Ephesians 6:1-3

So what's the deal? Why all the mention of law in the New Testament if we're not under the law?

Matthew 5:17-18
17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The Law was never done away with.

BUT! We ARE free from the law, under one condition.

Galatians 5:16-25
16: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17: For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24: And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25: If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

There is a HUGE distinction between walking in the Spirit and walking in the flesh, and if you walk in the Spirit you have no need for the law because you won't be breaking the law! The law has NO power over you if you do not break it!

We are no longer under the law, IF we walk in the Spirit.

For GOD is NOT mocked, whatsoever a man soweth that shall he also reap...to the flesh CORRUPTION..gone to hell my freinds.

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Brother Drew stated:

quote:
Those who are known will persevere for none can pluck them out of the Father's Hand.

The question is not anyone or any devil plucking one from Yahwehs hand......it is can one turn away, can ones love grow cold and leave the faith.

i have proved that with scriptures numerous times.

Dont know what else i could post, for if you have ears to hear one would hear..

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
Brother Drew stated:

quote:
Those who are known will persevere for none can pluck them out of the Father's Hand.

The question is not anyone or any devil plucking one from Yahwehs hand......it is can one turn away, can ones love grow cold and leave the faith.

i have proved that with scriptures numerous times.

Dont know what else i could post, for if you have ears to hear one would hear..

And the true Believer WILL NOT walk away. The true Believer who is sealed with the Holy Spirit, in whom the fruit of the Spirit is produced.

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Brother Drew you state:

quote:
And the true Believer WILL NOT walk away. The true Believer who is sealed with the Holy Spirit, in whom the fruit of the Spirit is produced.

Matthew 13:
3And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

9Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Now, consider that we can't earn salvation by our "good deeds," and therefore we can't lose salvation by our "bad deeds." In other words, we can't lose our salvation no matter how badly nor how often we sin.

The way that we receive salvation is by making a choice to put our faith in Yahushua as our Savior, and therefore the only way that we can lose salvation is by undoing our choice (i.e. by choosing to reject Yahushua).

So is it possible to reject Yahushua and lose our salvation? Prayerfully examine the following passages and consider the questions that they raise:

1. "This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of Yahweh. Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop." (Luke 8:11-15. See also Matthew 13:18-23 and Mark 4:13-20)

Notice that there are four groups of people described in this parable. The first group represents all unbelievers, from whom the devil has snatched the Word of God so that they won't believe and be saved.

The second group of people are those who believe for awhile, but when they are tested they fall away. Some Bible teachers say that this group believed with their minds but not with their hearts, and therefore they never received salvation. However, notice how Yahushua described the first and second groups. Yahushua said that the first group was not saved because they did not believe, but He said that the second group did believe until they fell away.

Yahushua did not qualify this by saying that they only believed with their minds, but instead He referred to them as believers. Therefore, some Bible teachers say that these are people who were saved, but they fell away from the faith and lost their salvation.

The third group of people are those who hear the Word, but they are so caught up in worldly things that the Word of Yahweh becomes "choked" within them. This comes from a Greek word that can also be translated as "strangled" or "suffocated" (according to Strong's Greek Dictionary). These words convey the idea of death, not the abundant life that we have in the Messiah. There is some debate among scholars about whether these are simply immature Christians, or whether these people are even saved at all.

The fourth group represents true, mature believers, who retain the Word and produce a crop by persevering.

So in this parable we have one group (group #1) which represents all unbelievers, and one group (group #4) which represents all true, mature believers. It's possible (as some people believe) that one or both of the other two groups represent people who received salvation, but then they "fell away" from the faith and lost their salvation. Our doctrinal biases might not allow us to consider this interpretation, but that's not a very good way to study the Bible. We might not like the possibility of Christians losing their salvation, but we can't afford to dismiss this possibility without examining all of the evidence. If yahushua was warning us that Christians can lose their salvation by "falling away," then we need to know that!

This parable is found in Matthew 13:18-23, Mark 4:13-20, and Luke 8:11-15.

There is many things that Yahushua was implying and showing us in the parable of the sower brother Drew.

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

No Brother Barry you are placing your perspective/personal interpretation over the top of the scripture. This is called eisegesis.

When the Believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit of God, he is indwelt by God. From the indwelling presence of God the Fruit of the Spirit is produced, one fruit of which is faith along with:
love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, meekness, temperance.

Ephesians 2:
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Which of the soils produced fruit?

You say they were more mature who produced and yet all soils received the seed at the same time.

The difference was NOT the maturity of the soil but the condition of the soil. It was the condition of the receiving heart which made the difference.

There are Five Virgins who have oil in their lamps, (the oil being a symbol of God's Holy Spirit), and Five who do not, and the Lord says "I know you not", and yet they are all waiting for the return of the bridegroom.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Caretaker is right. Our Lord Jesus Christ is not going to just sit back and watch one of His own children foolishly wander off into hell. He loves us way too much to let that happen. And why would an omniscient Savior bother to save someone knowing that He would "unsave" him later on?

FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES. (Hebrews 12:6).

THOSE WHOM I LOVE, I REPROVE AND DISCIPLINE; THEREFORE BE ZEALOUS AND REPENT. (Revelation 3:19)

MOREOVER, WE HAVE ALL HAD HUMAN FATHERS WHO DISCIPLINED US AND WE RESPECTED THEM FOR IT. HOW MUCH MORE SHOULD WE SUBMIT TO THE FATHER OF OUR SPIRITS AND LIVE! OUR FATHERS DISCIPLINED US FOR A LITTLE WHILE AS THEY THOUGHT BEST; BUT GOD DISCIPLINES US FOR OUR GOOD, THAT WE MAY SHARE IN HIS HOLINESS. NO DISCIPLINE SEEMS PLEASANT AT THE TIME, BUT PAINFUL. LATER ON, HOWEVER, IT PRODUCES A HARVEST OF RIGHTEOUSNESS AND PEACE FOR THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN TRAINED BY IT. (Heb 12:9-11 NIV)

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Sister Carol states:

quote:
Caretaker is right. Our Lord Jesus Christ is not going to just sit back and watch one of His own children foolishly wander off into hell. He loves us way too much to let that happen. And why would an omniscient Savior bother to save someone knowing that He would "unsave" him later on?

FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES. (Hebrews 12:6).

THOSE WHOM I LOVE, I REPROVE AND DISCIPLINE; THEREFORE BE ZEALOUS AND REPENT. (Revelation 3:19)

MOREOVER, WE HAVE ALL HAD HUMAN FATHERS WHO DISCIPLINED US AND WE RESPECTED THEM FOR IT. HOW MUCH MORE SHOULD WE SUBMIT TO THE FATHER OF OUR SPIRITS AND LIVE! OUR FATHERS DISCIPLINED US FOR A LITTLE WHILE AS THEY THOUGHT BEST; BUT GOD DISCIPLINES US FOR OUR GOOD, THAT WE MAY SHARE IN HIS HOLINESS. NO DISCIPLINE SEEMS PLEASANT AT THE TIME, BUT PAINFUL. LATER ON, HOWEVER, IT PRODUCES A HARVEST OF RIGHTEOUSNESS AND PEACE FOR THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN TRAINED BY IT. (Heb 12:9-11 NIV)

She quoted: THOSE WHOM I LOVE, I REPROVE AND DISCIPLINE; THEREFORE BE ZEALOUS AND REPENT. (Revelation 3:19)

what happens if that one your talking about sister is Not ZEALOUS AND REPENT. ?

We must read all of Revelation 3...

Revelation 3
1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

4Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

6He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

That is some strong scripture in bold; verse:

5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

You MUST what? OVERCOME or what?
He will BLOT your name out of the Book if Life!

So He says to what? REPENT

What do we have to overcome?
Satan..no
World..no
People..no

SELF...perhaps the MARK of the BEAST [my opinion] folks {spiritual mark, physical mark}

O mans heart is continually wicked, who can know it?

There in is where the problem is; our own self, Eve said "That serpent beguiled me" tricked me; Adam said "It was that woman" that "you" gave me.

Man has been trying to "pass the buck" [blame] ever since...But no

Its our own selfish nature that we must overcome...HOW?
(Spiritual warfare) the battle ground is our own mind. But take Hope for:

Timothy 1:7
For YHWH hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Walk in the Spirit, and we will fulfill the works of the flesh, and if we after walking in the Spirit, [fall away] amd walk in the flesh and stay there what is the END OF THIS MAN????

This is an edit note....i did not edit the above because i wanted to state that was surely a typo:!! it was suppose to read " walk in the Spirit and we will [NOT] fulfill the lusts of the flesh! Forgive me sister that is what i meant to say, i stand corrected and thankyou
Death [spiritual] why? because he did not REPENT, and OVERCOME; there for his name will be blottede out of the book of life!

Is that now what the scripture says?

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

Revelation 3:1-5 "To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."

Most of this church was composed of dead-unsaved nominal Christians, just as Jesus says "you are dead". In 1John 5:12, Jesus says, "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." Most of these Christians did not have the Son. But a few did and to those Jesus promised that he would never blot out their names from the book of life.

Also, some point out that the phrase "I will never blot out his name" implies that there are some people who do have their name written in the book of life whose name will be blotted out. But it does not say that explicitly. However some will point out Luke 10:20 "However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven." which was spoken to the disciples of whom we assume Judas was among them, but who was later condemned. Did he lose his salvation?

Besides the fact that no one had been born of God until the Spirit came at Pentecost and so the guarantees to those born of God were not effective until then, Jesus may not be telling them that their names were actually written in the book of life at that time. For example, if I said "Don't cry over spilt milk, rather cry at the lose of your brother." (Meaning the death of your brother), but in fact I'm not saying that your brother has died, but rather that if it occurs, cry over that. So Jesus may be saying "rejoice over your names being written in the book of life", not that they had yet been, and not over something like demons being subject to you.

http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/etsec.html

http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007317;p=2

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

barrykind

quote:
She quoted: THOSE WHOM I LOVE, I REPROVE AND DISCIPLINE; THEREFORE BE ZEALOUS AND REPENT. (Revelation 3:19)

what happens if that one your talking about sister is Not ZEALOUS AND REPENT. ?

THOSE WHOM I LOVE, I REPROVE AND DISCIPLINE

The Lord did NOT say those He loves He will blot out of the Book of Life!

quote:
What do we have to overcome?
Satan..no
World..no
People..no

SELF...perhaps the MARK of the BEAST [my opinion] folks {spiritual mark, physical mark}

The world, the flesh, and the devil. This is another topic. I'll start another thread.

quote:
Walk in the Spirit, and we will fulfill the works of the flesh, and if we after walking in the Spirit, [fall away] amd walk in the flesh and stay there what is the END OF THIS MAN????

Walk in the Spirit, and we will fulfill the works of the flesh...WHAT???

and if we after walking in the Spirit, [fall away] amd walk in the flesh and stay there what is the END OF THIS MAN????

Carnal
http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007041#000000

(Romans 6:3-7 NASB)
Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin.

barrykind, the way you're writing things here, it sounds like you're living by a whole bunch of rules, but you don't FEEL HIM in your heart. You don't TRUST HIM with your life.

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

sister Carol quoted what i stated:

by barrykind:
[QUOTE] Walk in the Spirit, and we will fulfill the works of the flesh, and if we after walking in the Spirit, [fall away] amd walk in the flesh and stay there what is the END OF THIS MAN????

Timothy 1:7
For YHWH hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Walk in the Spirit, and we will fulfill the works of the flesh, and if we after walking in the Spirit, [fall away] amd walk in the flesh and stay there what is the END OF THIS MAN????

This is an edit note....i did not edit the above because i wanted to state that was surely a typo:!! it was suppose to read " walk in the Spirit and we will [NOT] fulfill the lusts of the flesh! Forgive me sister that is what i meant to say, i stand corrected and thankyou

sorry for the mistake.....hopefully yall know me well enough to know that was a slip.
bondservant

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

ok

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

THE POSSIBILITY OF TOTAL APOSTASY
BY
SAMUEL WAKEFIELD

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We have examined, the leading features of the remedial system, so far as it applies to man in his present state of being, beginning with the doctrine of atonement, and concluding with that of entire sanctification. But that Christians may understand the danger to which they are exposed, as well as the nature and. extent of that "great salvation" which is provided for them in Christ Jesus, we will now inquire whether it is possible for true believers to fall from their state of grace and perish everlastingly.

This has long been a question of debate between Calvinistic and Arminian divines; the former taking the negative, and the latter the affirmative. That we may examine the subject with all possible fairness, let us ascertain, 1. How far these contending parties agree. 2. The ground on which the Calvinistic theory is based; and, 3. The arguments by which the possibility of total, apostasy is supported.

I. HOW FAR THESE CONTENDING PARTIES AGREE.

All genuine Arminians agree with Calvinists in asserting,

1. That believers are preserved in the way of life and salvation by Divine power. Thus St. Peter asserts, that they "are kep by the power of God through faith unto salvation." I Peter 1:5. The same doctrine taught, in the doxology with which Jude closes his Epistle. "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy."

2. That no adverse agency or influence shall ever be able to separate true believers from the love of God. Of such our Lord says, "They shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." John 10:28. "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors, through him that loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 8:35--39.

3. That God has promised persevering grace to all faithful believers. He will present us "holy, and unblamable, and unreprovable in his sight," if we "continue in the faith pounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the Gospel." Col. 1:2, 23. Again, St. Peter declares, that if we give all diligence to add to our "faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, and charity," we "shall never fall." II Pet. 1:5-7, 10.

4. That true believer may fall into gross and scandalous sins. Thus Lot fell into drunkenness and incest; David, into adultery and murder; Solomon, into gross idolatry; and Peter, into a denial of his Lord, with oaths and imprecations. It is more&ver agreed on all hands, that those who commit such horrid sins are guilty in the sight of God, and unfit for the kingdom of heaven, until they are again renewed through repentance and faith. But the Calvinistic theory is, that a truly regenerate man "can neither totally nor finally fall away from a state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved." Let us then examine,

II. THE GROUND ON WHICH THIS THEORY IS BASED, or the arguments by which it is supported.

1. The doctrine is argued from the perfections of God. It is said that "God, as a being possessed of infinite love, faithfulness, wisdom, and power, can hardly be supposed to suffer any of his people finally to fall into perdition. This would be a reflection on his attributes, and argue him to be worse than a common father. His love to his people is unchangeable, and therefore, they cannot be the objects of it at one time and not at another. His faithfulness to them and to his promise is not founded upon their merit, but on his own will and goodness. This, therefore, cannot be violated. His wisdom foresees every obstacle in the way, and is capable of removing it, and of directing them in the right path. It would be a reflection on his wisdom, after choosing a right end, not to choose right means in accomplishing the same. His power is insuperable, and is absolutely and perpetually displayed in their preservation and protection.

In reply to this argument it is only necessary to remark that there is nothing in it that cannot, with equal force, be employed, against certain fact. the existence of which our opponents themselves admit. We refer to the fall of angels and of our first Parents. If such perfectly holy beings have fallen, and some of them to rise no more, how can we argue the impossibility of total apostasy from the perfections of God? Are not these perfections the same now that they were before the fall of man and angels? The argument, therefore, proves too much, as it proves the impossibility of what has taken place.

But is it indeed true, as this favorite argument assumes, that Gods creatures cannot be the objects of his love at one time and not at another? If it is, then it will follow either that God never loved "the angels which kept not their first estate," though they were at first, his holy and happy creatures, or that he loves them still, though now "reserved in everlasting chains;" both of which are too absurd to be believed. It will follow, moreover, on the same principle, that God must remain perfectly the same to those who are now his regenerate children as he was to them in their unregenerate and rebellious state. But to suppose this is a reflection on the character of God and a contradiction of his word. The key to the whole question is, that God ever loves what is morally good; and hates all moral evil. Hence, while creatures change, the love of God may be extended to them or withheld from them, according to their moral character, and yet God remain unchangeable, loving holiness and hating iniquity. But the unfrustrable perseverance of the saints is also argued,

2. From certain doctrine, peculiar to the Calvinistic scheme. These are, 1. That some men and ange1s are unconditionall predestinated to everlasting life; 2. That the covenant which God makes with his people is unconditional; 3. That all for whom Christ died shall infallibly be saved; 4. That the intercession of Christ secures the salvation of all for whom it is made; and, 5. That the Holy Spirit never forsakes any man whom he regenerates. As these are all questions of controversy, it will be time enough to receive them as so many grounds of argument when they are proved to be true. Till then they must be regarded as mere assumptions, and, consequently, as incapable of establishing the doctrine in proof of which they are adduced. But the advocates of the theory which we are considering attempt to support it,

3. By direct Scripture testimony. We will therefore proceed to an examination of the leading passages which they bring forward for this purpose.

Job 89:9: "The righteous also shall hold on his way, and he that hath clean hands shall be stronger and stronger." But this is far from saying that no righteous man. shall ever become unrighteous. If the passage is to be so understood, then we may safely assert, on the same principle, that no evil doer can ever be reformed; for it is expressly said that "evil men and seducers shall wax, worse and worse."

Psalm 89:30--35: "If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; if they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; then will I visit their transgression with the rod, arid their iniquity with stripes. Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly, take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness, that I will not lie unto David."

Every one must see that the covenant here spoken of related wholly to David and his seed. Had it, therefore, been absolute and unconditional, this would not prove that such is Gods covenant with all his spiritual children. But that it was a conditional covenant, though expressed in absolute terms, is evident from what follows in the same connection. "But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thin anointed. Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant; thou hast profaned his crown, by casting it to the ground." Thus God did "alter the thing that" hail "gone out of his lips," but without any impeachment of his truth.

Jeremiah 31:3: "I have loved thee with an everlasting love; there fore with loving-kindness have I drawn thee." Our opponents seem to quote this passage as an evidence that those whom God loves at one time always were and always will be the objects of his love. But there is certainly a wide difference between loving "with an everlasting love," in the sense of the text, and loving everlastingly, for the passage has no reference whatever to futurity "I have loved thee with an everlasting love." Nor do these words imply that no righteous man will ever turn from his righteousness, and so perish forever. They do not touch that question, but simply declare the, strong and abiding love of God to the Jewish Church. To see this it is only necessary to read the passage in connection with the preceding context. "At the same time, saith the Lord, I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people Thus saith the Lord, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest." Then the prophet adds, speaking in the person of, Israel, "The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love; therefore with loving kindness have I drawn thee."

Mark 16:16: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." Does this mean "he that believeth" at this moment "shall" certainly and inevitably "be saved?" If this interpretation is good, then, by all the rules of speech, the other part of the sentence must mean, "he that believeth not" at this moment "shall" certainly and inevitably "be damned." This interpretation, therefore, cannot be admitted. The obvious meaning of the whole sentence is, "He that believeth," if he continue to believe, "shall be saved; but he that believeth not," if he continue in unbelief, "shall be damned."

John 5:24: "He that heareth my word, and believeth en him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." Here we remark, 1. That the present condition of true believers is called in Scripture "everlasting life," or "life eternal," first, because it is the same in nature with the life of heaven; and secondly, because, in the order of saving grace, it leads to a life of glory. "This in life eternal," said our Lord, "that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." John 17:2. 2. That all who truly believe pass from spiritual death into thin state of spiritual life; and, 3. That if they continue steadfast they "shall not come into condemnation;" for surely the passage cannot mean that, when believers fall into gross sins, like David, Solomon, and Peter; they incur no condemnation.

John 10:27-28: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and. I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." Here we have only to ask, Who "shall never perish?" The answer is, Those who hear the voice of Christ, and follow him. This promise is, therefore, so far from being unconditional, that the condition is clearly expressed.

John 13:1: "Having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end." The passage means nothing more than that our Lord continued to love his disciples "'unto the end" Of his own life. If it were therefore true that persons once in grace must forever remain in that state the doctrine could derive no support from this passage, except by a false interpretation.

John 17:11: "Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." Calvinists have laid great stress upon this text as teaching the doctrine that all whom the Father has given to Christ in the covenant of grace must infallibly persevere to the end. And yet in the very next verse our Lord declares that one of those whom the Father had given him did not persevere to the end, but perished everlastingly. His own words are, "Those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition." So, then, one of this number was finally lost, which shows very clearly that the phrase "these whom thou hast given me" signifies here, if not in most other places too, the twelve apostles, and them only.

Roman 8:38-39: "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." But what does this text prove in regard to the perseverance of the saints? It proves that the apostle was at that time fully persuaded of his own perseverance, a persuasion which no doubt many Christians have at the present day called in Scripture "the full assurance of hope." It proves that he had the most unlimited confidence in the faithfulness and power of God to support his people in all the trials of life a doctrine which we most heartily believe, for it is written, "As thy days, so shall thy strength be." Deut. 33:25. But it does not prove the absolute and unconditional perseverance of all true believers to the end, for the apostle says, "I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection; lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." I Cor. 9:27.

These Scriptures, and a few others, have been pressed into the service of the Calvinistic theory of perseverance; but they utterly fail, when fairly interpreted, to establish the doctrine in support of which they are adduced. Nor is there a single passage in the Bible which, in its true import, proves the doctrine, in question. But to be fully convinced of this, let us consider,

III. THE ARGUMENT BY WHICH THE POSSIBILITY OF TOTAL APOSTASY IS SUPPORTED

The simple question now before us is this: Can a true believer so fall away as to perish everlastingly? Believing the affirmative of this question to be the doctrine of the Bible, we will proceed to adduce some of the numerous arguments by which it is established. We refer,

1. To those passages of scripture in which the doctrine is expressly taught. Thus Ezekiel 18:24: "But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned. In his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he bath sinned, in them shall he die."

That this is to be understood of eternal death appears evident from the twenty-sixth verse "When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; (here is temporal death;) for his iniquity that he hath done, shall he die." (Here is death eternal.)

To evade the force of these passages some assert that the righteousness of which the prophet speaks does not imply true piety, but it a mere external or hypocritical righteousness. This, however, is a most unhappy shift, for it turns the language of the prophet into downright nonsense. Thus: When one who is hypocritically "righteous turneth away from his" hypocritical "righteousness, and committeth iniquity, shall he live?" Doubtless he shall not, as the interrogatory clearly implies. But this fact does not depend upon his turning away from his righteousness, unless it can be shown that hypocritical righteousness will secure eternal life. Again, "All his" hypocritical "righteousness that he bath done shall not be mentioned;" that is, shall not be reckoned to him. Happy circumstance! that at least so much of his hypocritical life is to be passed over in silence. But why? Because "he doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth." To escape these absurdities we must admit that one who is truly righteous may nevertheless so fell away as to perish everlastingly.

John 15:1-2, 6: "I am the true vine, and my Father in the husband. man. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

Here we may remark, 1. That the persons spoken of are branches in the true Vine, Christ Jesus; 2. That some of these branches abide not in the Vine, but the Father taketh them away; 3. That the branches which abide not are cast forth, cast ant from Christ and his Church; 4. That they are withered, and, consequently, are never grafted in again; and, 5. That they are also cast into the fire and burned. It is not possible for words more strongly to declare that even those who are now branches of the true Vine may so fall from God as to perish forever.

Romans 11:17-18, 21-22: "If some of the branches be broken off and thou, being a wild olive-tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive-tree; boast not against the branches. For if God spared not- the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

Here we observe, 1. That the olive tree spoken of is the invisible and spiritual Church of God, consisting of all true believers. For, says the apostle, "If the first fruit be holy, the lump is also holy; and if the met be holy, so are the branches." And again, "Because of unbelief they were broken off; and thou standest by faith." 2. The persons addressed were actually grafted into this olive-tree, and were therefore holy branches. 3. These, branches were still liable to be cut off from the olive-tree into which they were then grafted; and, 4. No intimation is given that the broken off branches were ever grafted in again. We conclude, therefore, that those who are members of the spiritual invisible Church may nevertheless so apostatize as to perish everlastingly.

I Timothy 1:18-19: "War a good warfare; holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away, concerning faith have made shipwreck." Here it is only necessary to remark, That the persons alluded to, such as Hymeneus and Alexander, had once that faith which purifies the heart and produces a good conscience; for otherwise they could not have "put it away." 2. That of this faith they "made shipwreck," which necessarily implies that it was totally and finally lost; for a vessel once wrecked can never be recovered. The apostle himself represents one of these men at least as being irrecoverably lost. His words are, "Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil; the Lord reward him according to his works." II Tim. 4:14. Hence one who possesses faith and a good conscience may so fall away as to perish everlastingly.

Hebrews 6:4-6: "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fell away, to renew them again unto repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

That the persons whom the apostle describes in this passage were true believers, cannot be denied without great absurdity; for it wou1d be a most glaring inconsistency to characterize the unregenerate by the terms and phrases which are here employed. They "were once enlightened;" an expression familiar with St. Paul, but which be never applied to those who were not true believers. "The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints." Eph. 1:18. And again, "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined into our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." II Coin. 4:6.

They had "tasted of the heavenly gift;" which was something more than a mere intellectual or sentimental approval of the Gospel, as some would have it. For, the heavenly gift is distinguished both from the Holy Spirit, and from the word of God mentioned afterward, which leaves us no choice but to interpret it of Christ. And then, to taste Christ is to receive his grace and mercy in the remission of sins. "If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious." I Peter 2:3.

They "were made partakers of the Holy Ghost;" which evidently means, in the language of the New Testament, to receive the Holy Ghost in his sanctifying and comforting influences. "Repent, and be baptized-every one of you in the name of Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38. Again, "The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts, by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us." Rom. 5:5.

They "tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come; "in other words; they heartily embraced the word of truth, and realized the saving power of the Gospel dispensation. And yet these persons, after possessing all these high attainments, so fell away that it was impossible "to renew them again unto repentance." Consequently, their fall was total and final.

But it will be said, the apostle only makes a supposition, "if they shall fell away." We answer, the apostle makes no supposition at all; for there is no if in the original. His words are, and having fallen away. We have, therefore, in this passage a proof almost as clear as language can make it, that those who are made the subjects of converting and sanctifying grace may nevertheless so fall away as to perish everlastingly.

Hebrews 10:26--29: "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery indignation which shalt devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses's law died without mercy under two or three witnesses. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

Here it is undeniably plain, 1. That the person referred to as an example was once sanctified by the blood of the covenant; for, to suppose, as some have done, that it was Christ himself who was sanctified by this blood, is too absurd to need refutation. 2. That he afterward, by known and willful sin, trod under foot the Son of God; treating his person and authority with the utmost contempt, as did the Jews in his crucifixion. 3. That he counted the blood of Christ, by which the new covenant between God and man was ratified, sealed, and confirmed, "an unholy thing;" regarding it as destitute of any sacrificial or atoning merit. 4. That he insulted the Holy Spirit; and, 5. That by these means he incurred a sorer punishment than temporal -death, namely, death eternal. Therefore, those who are sanctified by the blood of Christ may yet fall away and perish forever.

There is one remark which we desire to make in regard to the last two passages quoted. It is this Though they establish, beyond successful controversy, the possibility of total and final apostasy, yet they do not prove, as seine have urged by way of objection to the doctrine, that no apostate can ever be recovered. They do not apply to back-sliders of every kind; but only to those who rejected the whole Christian system, abjured Christ, and joined with the blaspheming Jews in calling him an impostor. Thus they rendered their salvation impossible by willfully and maliciously rejecting the only means of recovery. But these passages do not apply to any apostate who still believes in Christ as the Redeemer of men, and acknowledges Christianity as a Divine revelation. To all such there remains an available "sacrifice for sins, and they may yet be recovered "out of the snare of the devil"

Many other texts of Scripture might be adduced in proof of the doctrine in question; but those which we hate quoted are quite sufficient for any present purpose. We will, therefore, proceed to argue the possibility of apostasy,

2. From Scripture examples. We now assume it as a fact, which we think the following oases will prove, that the Scriptures furnish us with examples of total and final apostasy. We refer,

(1.) To the case of Saul, king of Israel. That he was once in a state of grace and favor with God is sufficiently clear from what is recorded of him in I Samuel 10:6-7,9. Samuel said to him, "The Spirit of the Lord will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man. And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee. And it was so, that when he lad turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart." Thus we see that God gave Saul "another heart;" that he was "turned into another man;" that he possessed the spirit of prophecy, and that God was with him.

But in I Samuel 28:15, Saul tells Samuel, "I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me." And in I Samuel 31:4, the sacred historian informs as that "Saul took a sword, and fell upon it;" thus destroying his own life. If, therefore, the doctrine of the apostle is true, that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him," Saul must have perished in his sins.

(2.) Solomon. It will startle some to hear the name of Solomon among those who are regarded as examples of total and final apostasy. We need not attempt to prove that he once enjoyed the Divine favor, for this is what no one will deny. But it will be asked, What evidence have we of his apostasy? This question may be answered by a reference to the eleventh chapter of the first -book of Kings, ***** bit unlawful marriages with strange women and his shameful idolatry are recorded. It is, moreover, plainly declared that "the Lord was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the Lord God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice, and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods; but he kept not that which the Lord commanded." True, we are often told that Solomon was reclaimed from all his backsliding; but of this we have no evidence whatever. Indeed, the inspired record seems to contradict it; for according to this, the last act of his life was an attempt to kill Jeroboam. Thus the sacred historian leaves his condition under a dark cloud, which forbids us to believe that he entered into life eternal.

(3.) Judas Iscariot. "But was not Judas a devil from the beginning? "Certainly not. On the contrary, we have reason to believe that he was, when chosen as an apostle, the firm friend of our Lord. The psalmist speaks of him thus "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, bath lifted up his heel against me." Ps.91:9 That this prophecy refers directly to Judas cannot be doubted, for it is so applied to him by Christ himself (John 13:18.) Can we, then, seriously conclude that our Lord would bold familiar friendship with a devil, that he would receive him into his own family, and that he would send him forth to preach his Gospel and to cast out devils?

But it is said that our Lord called Judas a devil, and that he was, moreover, styled a thief. This is all true; but we must remember that he also applied to Peter the term Satan, which is only another name for the same evil spirit. Are we therefore to conclude that Peter had never been in a state of grace? Certainly not. It is also to, be remembered that Judas was not called a devil until near the time when he, wickedly betrayed his Master. That he became a wicked man is a matter of the clearest record. Hence it is asserted (John 13:27) that "Satan entered into him." Moreover, St. Peter declares that "Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." Acts 1:25. And it is also clear that he died under guilt, for he destroyed his own life.

(4.) The Israelites who fell in the wilderness. Of these we have an account in I Corinthians 10:1-5: "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptize unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual meat; and did all drink, the same spiritual drink; for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them; and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased; for they were overthrown in the wilderness."

(5.) The last case of this kind which we will notice is that of Hymeneus and Alexander: "Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away, concerning faith have made shipwreck. Of whom is Hymeneus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme." I Tim. 1:19-20. It is sometimes said that the faith which these persons possessed was not a true faith, and that the conscience referred to was not really a good conscience. And, therefore, though they are represented as falling from the favor of God, yet in reality they only fell from a profession of goodness. To this the only necessary reply is, 1. That the conscience spoken of is emphatically called "a good conscience;" and, 2. That St. Paul exhorts his son Timothy to hold fast the very same faith and conscience which he ascribes to Hymeneus and Alexander. It follows, therefore, that they are examples of total and final apostasy. But our doctrine may be argued,

3. From the cautions and warnings of the Scripture against unfaithfulness and apostasy. Thus: "Let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." I Cor. 10:12. "Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip" Heb. 2:1. "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." Heb. i3:12. "Let as therefore fear, lest a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it." Heb. 4:1. "Cast not away therefore your confidence, which bath great recompense of reward." Heb. 10:35. "Now the just shall live by faith; but if any man draw back, (literally, if the just man draw back,) my soul shall have no pleasure in him." Heb. 10:38. "Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness." II Peter 3:17.

That these Scriptures are addressed to true believers will hardly be denied; but if it is impossible for them to "fall," to "depart from the living God," to "cast away their confidence," or to "draw back unto perdition," why do the inspired writers use such warnings, cautions, and exhortations? Will the advocates of the unfrustrable perseverance of the saints tell us that this is a means by which believers are preserved from apostasy? This would certainly be in conflict with their own theory, which regards the perseverance of believers as being wholly unconditional. Or, will they say that this system of caution and warning is a means of exciting believers to watchfulness and proper Christian diligence? If so, it will be proper to inquire whether this system is based on truth. If it is, then it will necessarily follow that there is a danger of apostasy, and that our doctrine is true. But if no such danger exists, then we have the absurdity of supposing that the spiritual interests of Christians are promoted by a system of falsehood. The last argument which we will offer in support of our position is derived from the fact,

4. That the present life is a state of probation. A state of probation is one in which the character of men is formed and developed preparatory to a state of retribution. It involves obligations to obedience; commands and prohibitions; inducements to do right, and temptations to sin, with a certainty of final reward or punishment, according to the character which may be formed under the various circumstances of trial. It also enters into the very nature of a probationary state that the erring may be recovered, and that the obedient may go astray; for with out this it would not be a state of trial.

To deny that man is now in a state of probation is to deny the doctrine of a final judgment; for, in the economy of The Divine government, the one necessarily implies the other. If man has nothing to do in the formation of his own moral character, why is he required to "give account of himself to God?" and how could God say to any of our race, "Depart, ye cursed, into everlasting fire?" But if man is now in a probationary state there is no degree of saving grace which he may not forfeit; no height of holiness from which he may not fall. This is confirmed by the history of all moral beings with whom we have become acquainted. Angels fell from heaven, and Adam fell from paradisaical holiness. And such is the similarity between all moral beings in a state of trial, that the fall of angels and of our first parents is a corroborating fact in support of the doctrine that a state of probation involves the possibility of apostasy.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This selection comes from Samuel Wakefield's "A Complete System of Christian Theology," published by Walden and Stowe, 1869

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

Careful my friend to which ditch you direct.

I think that your Pentecostal wound is deeper than you think.

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

The Eight Pillars
of
Eternal Security
or
The Toppling of an Idol
(BY MR. JEFF PATON)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

An Idol 1: A representation or symbol of an object of worship: A false god... 4: An object of extreme devotion. 5: A false conception.

( Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, Merriam-Webster 1991)

Oh, great is the Diana of the Calvinists! If one genuine Christian can fall, slip away, apostatize, or be severed from Christ, not only will eternal security, the head of their idol, come toppling down, but so will the rest of her defiled body! Is it any wonder that, despite the fact that the whole of Scripture is decisively against them, they must at all costs save their precious license for sin? We could list many cases of certain individuals who have been made examples of in the apostolic record. We could list several clear and unambiguous passages that either speak directly about the possibility and danger of apostasy and falling away or give inference to this possibility through logical conclusion. Nevertheless, this will not do, for the high priests of this unholy deception have already cast a spell of Scriptural blindness with their twisting of the Word of God that is so pleasing to the tickled ears of their hearers. Their minds, eyes, and hearts have been dulled and darkened so that they cannot comprehend these truths.

The blatant and open sinning of those who have dishonored Christ by their profession of Christianity proves their salvation is highly questionable. When asked how they can claim to be saved while they live in sin, their explanation is always about their faith in the doctrine of eternal security . . . and never about their faith in Christ! Christ brings conviction while eternal security brings comfort. Between the two, they choose the idol.

Proving that eternal security is without Biblical support is the only way to knock out this false prop from under the eternal security proponent. This is not a difficult task to do if we examine their "proofs" anew and allow the Bible to speak for itself. We will not dodge the issues and "explain away" the texts that seem difficult as the eternal security folks do, but each of their pillars will be approached within its context and the Word of God as a whole.

Pillar One

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John 10:27-29.

With a small amount of scholarship, this verse can be cleared up. In the Greek text, the hearing and following are in the present tense. What does this mean? It means that only those who are hearing and following Christ right now are his sheep. Those that are living in a state of continual sin are not his sheep because they are neither hearing nor following Jesus. Who are secure? The sheep. Who cannot be snatched (taken away by force)? The sheep. Who is Jesus giving (present tense) eternal life? Those who are sheep. Who are the sheep? Who shall never perish? Who is Christ giving eternal life? Only those who are hearing and following right now! Whom do Jesus and the Father protect in their hands? Not the one who heard and followed, but only those who are actively believing now with an obedient faith. Is this not works? No! It is genuine faith! This is true biblical security.

The term "snatch" means to take by force. This promise guarantees that the devil cannot remove the believer (present tense) from the hand of God. This safety is only from forces outside the believer and God Himself. A backslider removes himself from the promises of safety and security. He is not removed against his own will.

Now, looking at this passage in its plain and obvious meaning, it renders no credence to the theory of unconditional eternal security. The chief pillar has fallen! The remaining seven groan under the weight to save this failed doctrine.

Pillar Two

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:35-39

First, these verses do not say, "Who shall separate us from the salvation of God?" Secondly, nowhere in these verses is Paul saying that sin cannot separate the one who rebels against the true and holy God.

To read the doctrine of eternal security into these verses is not warranted, since the conditionality of God's love is asserted throughout the Scriptures as a whole. God has an unconditional love for the lost as we can see in John 3:16. Other passages, such as the account in Mark 10:21,22 of the rich young ruler, who Jesus "beholding him loved him," further show the unconditional love of God, yet the ruler went away lost and grieved.

Why does Jude 21 warn us to "keep yourselves in the love of God" if the possibility of separation from God's love is impossible? In John 14:21 the conditionality of God's love is expressed this way, "He that hath my commandments, and keeps them, is he that loveth me; and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and manifest myself to him." Notice the clear and unambiguous words of Jesus, "He that hath my commandments and keeps them . . . is loved of my Father, and I will love him." Only bias and prejudice could impel one to deny the obvious conclusion that sin and rebellion is not the keeping of Christ's commandments, and that rebellious sinners are not in the love of God. In John 15:10 Jesus makes the same point again by inference, "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."

Clearly, there is a general love of God that goes out to all mankind regardless of their lost condition, and a specific and intimate love that God has only for those that are in fellowship with him through the atoning work of Jesus Christ. It is plain to see that this passage in Romans is this latter type of love.

Who shall separate us? Paul is addressing two elements here, one being "us." It is only those who are "in Christ" that are concerned with here, and not humanity overall. Notice that the designation "who" is not the believer himself, but that influence or circumstance that is outside the believer. The entire listing of Paul is consistent with this context! Death, life, angels, principalities, powers, et cetera, are all elements that do not include the moral choice of the individual who is now a believer. God's love is present in those who are in Christ, regardless if their circumstances in this life seem to give the impression that his love and protection is being withheld from them.

"Doesn't this passage say that 'any other creature cannot separate us from the love of God?' We are creatures and therefore we cannot separate ourselves!" Oh, what pathetic lengths will one go to save this precious Diana! The context demands that these "other creatures" are not us! Common usage of words denies this strange manner of interpretation. It makes no sense to say "who shall separate us . . . death, life . . . height, depth, nor we disobedient believers ourselves shall be able to separate us."

To get eternal security from these Scriptures, one has to assume that this is the meaning of the texts before reading them. By using this approach, they start it with theory, and they end it with theory, and that all they have! THEORY, and not TRUTH!

Pillar Three
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. Philippians 1:6

Notice that the eternal security advocate cannot produce even one unambiguous and clear passage for the rotten doctrine! If this pivotal doctrine runs throughout the Scriptures, as is claimed, why aren't there passages that say, "No matter what sin a saved person commits, he will still go to heaven," "Believers cannot utterly fall away from the faith," and "Once a Son, always a Son." As much as they preach this from the popular pulpit, one would think that "eternal security" was a term that was found in the Bible! Yet the truth is that it will only be found in their theology books.

How they derive unconditional eternal security from Philippians 1:6 is a mystery. Paul had his confidence that God would continue his justifying and sanctifying work in them all the way to the end. Yet what was Paul's confidence in? Was it that he believed they were eternally secure and he wanted them to know it? This is what the eternal security proponents want us to believe.

Paul was confident of their perseverence only because they had "fellowship in the gospel from... THE FIRST DAY UNTIL NOW." Paul tells what his confidence is based on, and that is what we should believe. If there was a group of believers who showed nothing but good fruit from the day of their conversion until now, then there would be no other choice but to have confidence in the grace of God for them.

Please take note that the Scriptures never state this kind of confidence for those who are lukewarm or "sinning saints." This promise is only for genuine, obedient believers! Paul himself thought that was "meet" or "just" for him to think this way about them (verse 7). They had given Paul absolutely no reason to doubt that they were genuine Christians! Would he say the same thing of you?

Pillar Four
Who are kept by the power of God through faith . . . I Peter 1:5

Notice the condition to this security. It is through faith. Sin is not faith. It is unbelief, or anti-faith. As long as believers are constantly abiding in the faith, the power of God keeps them. Since they have their faith in Jesus Christ, they have the security that is promised.

If eternal security were true, why is it never stated in the Bible that, "It is impossible for a believer to lose his salvation?" It is because the doctrine of eternal security is nothing but a lie!

Pillar Five
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:29

The individual's salvation is not the intent of the context here. It is the love of God for the nation of Israel. If one wishes to argue that "salvation is a gift, and therefore cannot be taken back by God" one would be inclined to agree with that. God does not take salvation away from us. We throw it away! It is our act of unbelief that brings separation and forces us to be broken off from the life of God. Look! In the preceding verses God tells us that many in Israel were "broken off" because of unbelief! We are also warned that we too can also be broken off unless we continue to "stand by faith (Romans 11:20-21)."

Why violate the context of this verse to "prove" eternal security, when we can be faithful to the Word of God and have the truth?

Pillar Six
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will in no wise cast out. John 6:37

Again, notice that nothing is said about this fictional eternal security.

Who are given to Christ? Those who come by faith. Those that receive the gracious offer of the Father are guaranteed acceptance by Christ. What is promised is nothing more than that anyone who casts his faith upon the Christ will not be turned away! Believers do not have to fear that the availability of salvation is limited in any way.

Pillar Seven
And this is the Father's will who hath sent me, that all of which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again on the last day. John 6:39

Many confuse God's will with God's decree. It is also God's will that none should perish, and that all would come to repentance (2Peter 3:9). It is the Father's will (desire) that Jesus should not "lose" any, but this is an ideal, and not a proof of the inability of falling away. For in John 17:12 Jesus said, "those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost except the son of perdition," direct proof that in spite of the desire of God that "none shall be lost," there was at least one of the chosen twelve that was! The will of God never violates the free will he has given us to exercise!

Pillar Eight
The final pillar remaining is starting to crumble into dust, since without the support of any verses positing this fallacious teaching, Ephesians 1:13-14 will render no support on its own.

In whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The only way that this can be perceived as a proof for eternal security is to have the support of some verse where the doctrine has already been proven. Standing alone as it does, it renders nothing that teachers of carnal security can use. The verse does not say whether believers can break this seal or not, but the whole of Scripture proves that they can. Observe that the Holy Spirit is only a down payment on our inheritance and that we do not possess the fullness of this gift until the Lord returns. The fullness of this promise is only to those who endure to the end. The Scriptures tell us to "Be faithful until death and I will give you a crown of life (Rev. 3:5,21)." The Lord preserves the faithful (Psalms 31:23), not the unfaithful. This is the true perseverence of the Saints!

Mourn, for your Idol has Fallen!
"Now they sin more, and have made them molten images of silver, and idols according to their own understanding." Hosea 13:2 "What profiteth the graven image that its maker hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols? Woe to him who saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach!" Hab. 2:18-19 "He heweth down cedars for himself . . . He burneth part of it in the fire . . . and the residue of it he maketh a god, even his graven image: he falleth down to it and worshipeth it, and prayeth to it, and saith, deliver me; for thou art my god." Isaiah 44:14-17

Nothing is more senseless that to create a god with one's own hands, only to bow down to worship it as mighty and powerful! Christians' assurance can only be based on a vital, living and trusting faith in the one true God, Jesus Christ. If there is a break in this relationship, there cannot be any hope of assurance. To claim assurance while one does not have a relationship with God is equal to worshiping something other than God, whether it be a doctrine or a piece of wood. Some will claim that fellowship with God can be severed but not the relationship to God. This statement is the same as calling God a liar! For it is written "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin (I John 1:7)." Notice that cleansing for sin is conditioned upon fellowship with God, and that fellowship is conditioned upon walking in the light. If the blood of Christ is not cleansing us from all sin, it is impossible to be in a relationship with God! Fellowship and relationship are inseparable from the saving work of Christ. Being "out of fellowship with God" is the same as being out of the grace and relationship with God.

My friend, cast away the false god of assurance that has been fashioned with the hands of men! Do not trust in lofty and eloquent pleas to trust in a false eternal security, but put all of your trust in Him who keeps us through a genuine, trusting, and abiding faith, that we may one day hear those wonderful words "well done, good and faithful servant."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Brother Drew States:

quote:
There are Five Virgins who have oil in their lamps, (the oil being a symbol of God's Holy Spirit), and Five who do not, and the Lord says "I know you not", and yet they are all waiting for the return of the bridegroom.

Sister Betty states:

1st

quote:
The oil in the lamps represents the Holy Spirit. We cannot fill our own lamps. The only way we can get oil is to get saved. There are people who attend Church who are not saved. They appear as Christians but because they are not saved, they have no oil. Salvation is a gift from God. The Bible makes it clear that we cannot earn salvation. We can earn crowns that will be presented to us in Heaven but we can not do anything to earn salvation.
betty

Note She says

quote:
The oil in the lamps represents the Holy Spirit. We cannot fill our own lamps. The only way we can get oil is to get saved.

All ten virgins had a lamp, had oil, but the wise took "extra" oil in thier "vessle"

Sothey all were virgins, had oil, and lamps; this was not in question. What was in question was that the "Foolish" virgins did not have Enough oil when the "midnight" cry came in!

Very grave warning here by Yahushua HaMashiach!!

Be ready, do not be "drunk" with wine werein is EXCESS, but be filled with the Holy Spirit.."FILLED" FILLED"; have plenty of OIl

We need a new thread study on the Ten virgins; and also i pray my Brother becausehelives will start a thread on "The bride"...he has a wonderful insight from YHWH on the Picture of the bride..

This matter of the oil and extra provision beyond ourselves is a hugely important issue. The question of the extra oil is still wondered about and discussed in devotional circles. Many Christians admit that this haunting parable of the ten virgins most assuredly involves them. Deep down in their hearts they also know that God is in some way giving them a warning. It is a call to an important spiritual preparation in God. Is God calling His people to prepare themselves for a coming journey through the darkness? Biblical Christians know that there certainly is a great darkness up ahead. This will come in the end-time "final witness" at the end of this age. So in this parable is our God giving us a 'heads up"?
We are told "A word to the wise is sufficient".
There is still time for us to respond and to act on this information.
So shall we take the message to heart?
Shall we make it a priority in our busy world to draw aside and to make this spiritual preparation?

If this parable is a prophecy, (and it probably is), then the answer is all too apparent.
Some of us will take the warning to heart.
We shall seek the face of God and make the needful preparation.
And some of us will not.

RUNNING LOW ON OIL.
AND THE TROUBLING ISSUE OF "BURNOUT".

Art by Spencer Williams.
Click on the image to go to his gallery.
We also see that all of the virgins were in the same predicament.
As the midnight hour approached they had all come to a moment of crisis.
Both the wise and the foolish were running low on oil.
All of them were approaching "burnout".
The fact that the virgins came to a time when their lamps were sputtering and burning low is not the main issue at all. This happened to all ten of the virgins, including the five wise virgins. Burnout happens to all of us from time to time as we come to low points and times of crisis in our lives. There is nothing wrong with this at all. It is a common human experience. We cannot pump up our ego or our "self esteem" and expect to avoid this. But our response to the high calling in God amid the challenges of life is what seems to be the issue.

So let us ask ourselves this question. Do we fear God? Do we seek His face when our world enters into a crisis? Have we come to know God more intimately in our dark passages through life? Have we taken time to address the spiritual issues as we walk with God through this life?

It is our spiritual attentiveness that appears to be the critical issue in this parable. We see it alluded to in Proverbs chapter 1. Here we see the woman of wisdom crying out in the streets. But few are listening. The foolish are going their own way no matter what. Only the wise stop to listen and respond to the God who is calling them.

So what was the difference then? Those who were wise had looked around them and seen that the darkness was coming. They then made important preparations for the coming night. They were not trusting and depending on the oil that was in the lamps of their own personal spirit. They knew that their own lamp would fail them somewhere down the line. So they had made their priority to obtain a spiritual supply of oil outside of themselves. They had that extra jar of oil. It was the 'midnight oil'. With that extra supply of oil the the wise virgins were prepared. They were ready for the great drama that would unfold at the midnight hour. When the hour of burnout came they were not left destitute in the darkness. They were prepared to recharge their lamps with a fresh supply of oil. The wise virgins then arose from their beds of ease and were ready to go out.

For the foolish virgins it was a different story. They had not prepared for the midnight hour. They were in a state of high anxiety and dismayed because their lamps were fading and approaching burnout. They had heard the midnight cry but they were unable to go on. But the lamps of the wise virgins had been recharged and were burning brightly. They were all set. They were ready to go out to meet the Bridegroom.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

This is not correct. In the Greek text, the five foolish virgins did NOT have oil, never had oil.

If you look at their wedding customs you will see that they were waiting in the bride's house for the groom to come get his bride and escort her back to his father's house. Their lamps were not lit while they were waiting because they were inside the bride's house.

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Carol states:

quote:
This is not correct. In the Greek text, the five foolish virgins did NOT have oil, never had oil.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Prove that
Carol'

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Carol look at verse 8

8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

for our lamps are gone out.

without oil their lamps could not have "GONE" out"

This is the greek Sister:

Strong's G4570 - sbennymi σβέννυμι
Transliteration
sbennymi
Pronunciation

sbe'n-nü-mē (Key)

Part of Speech
verb

Root Word (Etymology)

A prolonged form of an apparently primary verb

TDNT Reference
7:165,1009
Vines
View Entry

Outline of Biblical Usage 1) to extinguish, quench

a) of fire or things on fire

1) to be quenched, to go out

b) metaph. to quench, to suppress, stifle

1) of divine influence

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 8 AV — quench 7, go out 1

They had oil in thier lamps and their "oil" ran out......

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Its what youve been taught Sister, but tis not so.

For if they could say NO "OIL" then they were never saved..but if "OIL" represents Holy Spirit and most time does just like Sister Betty and Brother Drew states...to run out of oil would show that they were saved and did not finish to the end..

therefore once again proving the most evil doctrine of OSAS an abomination to true Doctrine...

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

The lamps went out right after they were lit.

Matthew 25:6 - 8 (NASB)
6“But at midnight there was a shout, ‘Behold, the bridegroom! Come out [they were inside] to meet him.’ 7“Then all those virgins rose and trimmed [lighted] their lamps. 8“The foolish said to the prudent, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’

The Greek is "they adorn the torches".

They took NO OIL. See for yourself:

YLT:

3they who were foolish having taken their lamps, did not take with themselves oil;

NRSV:

3When the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them;

NKJV:

3Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them,

KJV:

3They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

ISVNT:

3For when the foolish ones took their lamps, they didn’t take any oil with them.

ESV:

3For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them,

DRB:

3But the five foolish, having taken their lamps, did not take oil with them.

DNT:

3They that£ were foolish took their torches and did not take oil with them;

ASV:

3For the foolish, when they took their lamps, took no oil with them:

RSV:

3For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them;

NASB:

3“For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them,

HCSB:

3When the foolish took their lamps, they didn’t take oil with them.

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Sister the scripture is saying the 10 virgins all had lamps, they all had oil, the 5 wise took "extra" oil in a vessle, the 5 foolish did not take extra oil, no other vessle to carry extra oil and the scripture is plain that the 5 foolish virgins lamps.."WENT OUT" study the greek sister and get a clear meaning..

YOUR CRUTCH that you have been taught that the 5 foolish never had "OIL" [Holy Spirit] meaning they never were saved will not hold up in light of scripture and thus by yours wildbill and caretaker...they all had the Spirit .. ie;"OIL"

thus proving once again OSAS is just not supportedby scripture, so the "prop" of live like a devil and you can go to heaven is washed up and exposed for the LIE that it is; preached by decieved ministers and laymen, as well as "WOLVES" in sheeps clothing...

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

wildbill did you post that in the wrong thread?

does not make since here???

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Thanks for removing your post Wildb

[thumbsup2]

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Confessing Jesus or Denying the Lord Jesus Christ is the "saved / not saved" main issue. It is something THAT WE DO, based on our beliefs. People who argue for OSAS will often say,

"There's nothing you can DO to become saved, or it will be works. Therefore, there is nothing you can DO to become unsaved, you can't GAIN or LOSE salvation based on what you do."

Well, the first premise is wrong, because to be saved, one has to DO quite a lot; first be willing to hear the message, second, believe it in faith, third, repent of your sins, and fourth, confess that you believe God rose Jesus from the dead, and fifth, continue in the faith. And the act a person takes that leads to salvation is the opposite act one takes as a result of falling away from the faith. Confession or Denial of Jesus!

The other common thing people who belive OSAS often say in the debate is,

"How much or which sin would actually cause one to be unsaved? If we can lose salvation, where do we draw the line? or How much sin can I get away with?"

Again, it seems they forget the key issue, belief in Jesus and confession of Him.

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Luke 12:9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Exodus 32:33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
Psalm 69:28, Deuteronomy 29:20

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

The ACT of confessing Jesus is not only important to salvation, but also for determining who goes to heaven in the rapture.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my
word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.

Some scholars have tried to deny that Matthew 10:32 applies to them, saying it's for the Jews, or people of a different dispensation. However, this same theme is found, as quoted above, in the Epistles: Timothy, Romans, Jude. It's found in Revelation. It's found in the Old Testament. It's a theme of the entire Bible!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The process of falling away, and changing one's beliefs, which eventually can lead a person to deny Jesus, is described in many verses.
Given all of the ways to fall away from the faith, the Bible tells us to examine ourselves, and work out our salvation with fear. Sometimes religious people who may believe OSAS become very offended if you preach to them anything that might question their salvation. They say, "How dare you!". Well, I dare because scripture commands us to question our salvation.

2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

1 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Next is a list of the things lead to falling away from the faith and belief in Jesus.
Falling away & being rejected by God, can be the result of (each verse quoted in full below):

for lack of knowledge & rejected knowledge Hosea 4:6
that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not Matt 7:24-27
hearers only, deceiving your own selves James 1:22
beareth not fruit & abide not in me John 15:2,6
not a doer & forgetteth what manner of man he was James 1:22-24
faith without works is dead Jam 2:17-26
he that lacketh & hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins 2 Peter 1:9
unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures 2 Peter 3:16
err from the truth James 5:19-20
lust, and enticed James 1:13-16
the love of money 1 Timothy 6:10
be a friend of the world James 4:4
the pollutions of the world & again entangled therein & turned to his own vomit again 2 Peter 2:20-22
the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word Matt 13:22
have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away Luke 8:13
tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended Matt 13:21
be without chastisement Hebrews 12:6-8
servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death Romans 6:16
being led away with the error of the wicked 2 Peter 3:17
seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils 1 Timothy 4:1
an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Hebrews 3:12-15
sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth Hebrews 10:26
having put away concerning faith & blaspheme 1 Timothy 1:18-20:
counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing Hebrews 10:29
Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Matt 7:
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

James 1:22-24
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] thatbeareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

2 Peter 1:1-10
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

2 Peter 3:
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

James 5:
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

James 1:13-16
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

2 Peter 2:
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Matt 13:
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Matt 13:
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Hebrews 12
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

2 Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

Hebrews 3:12-15
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

1 Timothy 1:18-20:
18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Hebrews 10:
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

The person who believes OSAS often will look at all the evidence above and conclude that if a person "falls away" he was never really saved to begin with. I'm sorry, the Bible never says, "he who falls away was never really saved to begin with". All the messages and exhortations and warnings about falling away are written to believers.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The need to CONTINUE & ENDURE
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Acts 14:21,22
21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch,
22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

1 Timothy 4:
15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Romans 11:
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Colossians 1:
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Paul Preached He, Himself, might not be saved!
1 Corinthians 9:24-27
24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Philippians 3
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Six words that KILL OSAS. "I go, sir: and went not" vs. "he repented, and went"
There is a story of a man who makes a verbal declaration of obedience, but ends up disobeying.

Matt 21:
28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

Thus, a single one-time declaration of obdeince does not guarantee salvation!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If a person falls away from his rightousness then he shall die
Ezekiel 18
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25 Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the LORD is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hebrews 6
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come *1,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

(*1) Does "the world to come" refer to the post millennium rebellion?
Rev 20:
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Matthew 12
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

1 Kings 8:39 Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men;)

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

1 John 1
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Heb 3:14 - "We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the END the confidence we had at first.
John 12:36 - "Put your trust in the light while you have it, so that you may BECOME sons of light."
1 CO 9:24 - "Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? RUN in such a way as to get the prize."
2 Titus 4:7 - "I have fought the good fight, I have FINISHED THE RACE, I have kept the faith."
Heb 12:1 - "Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and LET US RUN with perseverance the race marked out for us."
Phil 3:14 - "I PRESS ON toward the goal to win the prize"
REV 2:26 - "To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations
REV 3:21 - "To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jeremiah 8:20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scriptures used to try and support OSAS & Eternal Security, yet do not refute, in any way the truths presented above.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Proverbs 14:14 The backslider in heart shall be filled with his own ways: and a good man shall be satisfied from himself.

1 John 3:
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2 Timothy 2:13 "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you FOREVER.

John 17:2 "As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him."

Ephesians 2:
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Jude 24 "Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy"

2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Romans 8
28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 3
3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.
4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Heb 13:
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the EVERLASTING COVENANT,
21 MAKE you perfect in every good work to do his will, WORKING in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, THROUGH Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.Let's remember to humble ourselves knowing it is only God's Grace who saves man.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if [it be] yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
Sister the scripture is saying the 10 virgins all had lamps, they all had oil, the 5 wise took "extra" oil in a vessle, the 5 foolish did not take extra oil, no other vessle to carry extra oil and the scripture is plain that the 5 foolish virgins lamps.."WENT OUT" study the greek sister and get a clear meaning..

YOUR CRUTCH that you have been taught that the 5 foolish never had "OIL" [Holy Spirit] meaning they never were saved will not hold up in light of scripture and thus by yours wildbill and caretaker...they all had the Spirit .. ie;"OIL"

thus proving once again OSAS is just not supportedby scripture, so the "prop" of live like a devil and you can go to heaven is washed up and exposed for the LIE that it is; preached by decieved ministers and laymen, as well as "WOLVES" in sheeps clothing...

They had NO OIL according to the Greek. You are trying to say we should carry around extra Holy Spirit in case we run out, you silly man.

quote:
YOUR CRUTCH that you have been taught that the 5 foolish never had "OIL" [Holy Spirit] meaning they never were saved will not hold up in light of scripture and thus by yours wildbill and caretaker...they all had the Spirit .. ie;"OIL"

Completely unproven. You use loaded words like "CRUTCH" thinking to strengthen your influence, but instead you only come across as a manipulator. Show me this "light of scripture" you refer to.

quote:
so the "prop" of live like a devil and you can go to heaven

We have NEVER taught that. You are slandering us and completly ignoring what we have taught. We teach that we are led by the Holy Spirit (and He is not a flask of oil that we carry around).

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (Romans 8:14)

You are teaching a works salvation, and that is wrong. You cannot earn salvation. You cannot add to the cross of Christ. If you could earn eternal life by being obedient and doing good works, then there was no need for Christ to die.

I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing! (Galatians 2:21)

Rather, we do good works BECAUSE we are saved, and led by His Holy Spirit.

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
Carol states:

quote:
This is not correct. In the Greek text, the five foolish virgins did NOT have oil, never had oil.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Prove that
Carol'

There is no mention of "extra" oil. The wise had oil, the foolish did not.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

This is good...

"This chat developed out of a conversation with a pastor regarding basic Christian theology. We ended up talking about whether or not you can lose your salvation. Let's pick it up well into the talk."

CARM

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

Amen Sis!!!!!

From John Gill's Commentary:

quote:

Matthew 25:12

But he answered and said

The Lord and bridegroom from within, thought fit to give them an answer, but an unexpected and awful one to them:

verily I say unto you, I know you not;

which must be understood in consistence with the omniscience of Christ: he knew their persons, conduct, and state; he knew they were foolish virgins, graceless professors, who had made no account of him and his righteousness; but had trusted to, and depended upon, their external profession of religion: they were none of the people whom he foreknew, or knew as his own, and loved with an everlasting love; he never knew them as his father's choice in him, or as this father's gift to him; he never knew them in the everlasting covenant, or as his sheep, for whom he died; he never knew them to believe in him, or love him; nor ever exalt his person, blood and sacrifice, at his table, nor do any good work with a single eye to his glory; he never approved of them, liked their persons, or their conduct; or ever owned them as the true companions, either of his bride, or of himself: which answer implies, that as the door was shut, so it should remain; there was no admittance for them, nor any to be hoped for; and it is all one as if he had said, begone, and depart hence. The Persic version adds such a clause, "begone from my door".

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

Barry, salvation is NOT a cloak which one can put on or take off and lay aside at will.

When one is born again, the LORD GOD move-in and indwells us, permeating being rooted firmly in every fiber of our being. The True Believer can no more deny Christ then they can deny the beating of their own heart.

It is the LORD GOD Who gives us the very gift of faith, and rooted in the ROCK of our salvation the true Believer will not be moved.

The Five Wise had oil in their lamps, the true illumination from God's Holy Spirit, from within their hearts and lives.

The Five Foolish had lamps and the exterior trappings of religion, were working at the rituals, etc., BUT did NOT have the Holy Spirit of the LORD GOD within their hearts and lives.

No matter how much they did for religion and in the name of Christ, He did not know them.

One can run around all day keeping commandments and practicing religion till the cows come home, BUT if they have not truly placed their faith and trust in Christ, if they are not born again, with the indwelling Holy Spirit of God, then they are of the foolish.

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Charles Stanley’s ‘Once Saved, Always Saved’ Teaching Refuted By Jesus Christ Himself!

Posted on July 6, 2009 by soulrefuge

The topic of the eternal security of the believer is an interesting topic indeed. In this short article I examine the teaching of Charles Stanley (Atlanta, GA) and compare it with the simple teaching of Jesus Christ regarding those who are cast into the furnace of fire.

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils. (1 Timothy 4:1)

This is a very interesting passage of scripture. The Jewish apostle Paul, the same one who was converted on the road to Damascus, and a former murderer of Christians, wrote those words. Paul knew what it was like to be deceived. Paul was a Jewish Pharisee, and if one were to examine his life they would probably find an extremely moral man. One might even call him “holy”, but in the sight of God he was religious but lost! He did not know the true and living God until he met Him that day on the road to Damascus.

Keep that in mind whenever you read the letters of Paul, because you are hearing from a man who was ever so grateful for the mercy shown to him on that day. His desire was that others would come out of deception and come to know Jesus Christ. In the passage above, which is from the first letter that Paul wrote to Timothy, Paul tells us that the Spirit had spoken, that in the latter times [the latter days] there would be some who would depart from the faith, and give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines [teachings] of devils.

The Greek word for DEPART in that passage is the word APHISTEMI and it is defined as follows: To remove, instigate to revolt, to desist, desert, depart, draw [fall] away, refrain, withdraw self.

Now is this talking about people who truly knew the Lord at one time, or is it talking about those who merely professed to be saved, but in reality they were lost.

The passage above is talking about GENUINE believers in Jesus Christ, who get seduced by false teachers, and their doctrines, and depart from the faith.

An unsaved man cannot depart from the faith, because they never had faith to begin with.

Why on earth would the Holy Spirit [of truth] come forth with a warning about the unsaved departing from the faith?

How can the unsaved be seduced away from a place of faith that they were never at to begin with?

Why would the devil come with his doctrines to seduce the unsaved, who he already holds captive at his will? [2 Timothy 2:26]

Taking The Warnings Seriously
It is spiritually dangerous to attempt to make the scriptures say something that they are not saying. An example of what can happen, when you try to make the scriptures fit your own preconceived theology, can be found here:

In the book of Matthew 25:14-30 Jesus spoke about the parable of the talents. He is speaking on the subject of the ”Kingdom of Heaven”. Jesus shows us the fate of the”unprofitable servant” in the following verse from that passage:

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 25:30)

INTERPRETATION: CHARLES STANLEY
Charles Stanley, the well known Pastor and media minister from Atlanta, Georgia, said this concerning that same passage of scripture:

Pastor Charles Stanley

“Where is this place represented by the ‘outer darkness’ in Jesus’ parables? To be in the ‘outer darkness’ is to be in the kingdom of God but outside the circle of men and women whose faithfulness on this earth earned them a special rank or position of authority. The ‘outer darkness’ represents not so much an actual place as it does a sphere of influence and privilege.”

Concerning the “gnashing of teeth” Charles Stanley goes on to say that these people were “extremely frustrated with themselves” and “As some are celebrated for their faithfulness, others will gnash their teeth in frustration…” And ”we do not know how long this time of rejoicing and sorrow will last. Those whose works are burned up will not weep and gnash their teeth for eternity.” [Charles Stanley: Eternal Security, Can You Be Sure? Pages 126-127]

So according to Charles Stanley there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth in the outer darkness of Heaven! I don’t know about you but the place that he is describing sure sounds a lot like Hell to me.

Do you know why?
BECAUSE IT IS HELL!

INTERPRETATION: JESUS CHRIST

If you read the full parable in Matthew 25:14-30 you will see that the Lord Jesus Christ referred to the ‘unprofitable servant’ as “WICKED” in Matthew 25:26

Are the WICKED going to enter the kingdom of Heaven along with the faithful? Not according to Jesus Christ, the creator of all things.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the WICKED from among the just, And shall cast them into the FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:49-50)

Jesus said that the WICKED were going to be cast into the “furnace of fire” and that is where there is going to be ‘wailing and gnashing of teeth.’

The Greek word for WICKED in Matthew 25:26 is the word PONEROS and it is the very same Greek word used in Matthew 13:49 describing those people whom Jesus said would be cast into the ”furnace of fire”.

The Greek word for WEEPING in Matthew 25:30 is the word KLAUTHMOS and it is the very same Greek word used for WAILING in Matthew 13:50 describing those people who Jesus said would be cast into the ”furnace of fire”.

The Greek word for GNASHING in Matthew 25:30 is the word BRUGMOS and it is the very same Greek word that is used in Matthew 13:50 describing those whom Jesus said would be cast into the ”furnace of fire”.

Are there people weeping and gnashing their teeth in Heaven?
When a Christian shares the Gospel of Jesus Christ with the unsaved, should they tell them that they have a choice between Heaven or Hell, as to where they can wail and gnash their teeth?

The answer to the questions above are obviously an emphatic NO!

In fact the whole idea of wailing and gnashing of teeth in Heaven is ludicrous.

The apostle Paul was truly speaking in the Spirit, all those years ago, when he told us that some “shall depart from the faith”, but the question is this: Is anybody listening??

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

"Once Saved Always Saved" is a Doctrine of Deception
'Once saved always saved' is a subtle twist by false teachers. It is a doctrine of deception. According to them ‘saved’ is a status that inherits heaven. Once we got it we will not lose it no matter what we do. That is, even if a saved man rapes and kills a girl, surely he will go to heaven while the unsaved victim goes to hell. It is ridiculous before the holy God.
Many doctrines were founded using the Scripture. They can be divided into two groups. They are, true doctrines and false doctrines. Those which agree with the doctrine of Jesus Christ are true doctrines and those which have conflicts with the doctrine of Jesus Christ are false doctrines. Denominations make doctrines. However, God inspires true doctrine and Satan inspires false doctrines. Both use the word of God. False workers preach false doctrines. Now, let us analyze "once saved always saved” doctrine.
1. Doctrine of Jesus Christ
The doctrine of Jesus Christ is more important in the scripture. Christ says that as long a person is sinning; he is the servant of sin. "John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." It is a very direct statement of the Lord Jesus Christ. It should have superseded Christian theology. The word of God continued to come through the apostles as apostle's doctrine. But theologians ignores them. Listen to the statement of Apostle Paul: "Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." Listen to the statement of Apostle Peter: "2 Peter 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage." Listen to the statement of Apostle John: "1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." Here we see that the work of Satan is to make the people to commit sin. God will destroy the works of Satan, which is the sinning of his people, and will save them from their sins. "Matt 1:21 ... his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." If the work of the devil in them is not destroyed, they are not saved from sin. Yet, preachers teach that they are saved when they are not saved and they say "once saved always saved."
The crux of the doctrine of salvation is the fact that as long as a person is sinning he is a sinner. Since he/she is not saved from sinning, this person is not saved. Let us apply that to our topic. "Once Saved" means "Once a person stopped sinning." "Always Saved" means "Always the person will stay without Sinning." Even if we give this true meaning, still the statement "once saved always saved" is not according to the word of God. "1 Cor 10:12 ... let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." But they interpret the word of God according to the teachings of the devil, with a twist or a spin in it.
2. What is Salvation?
Everybody knows the scripture that says "by grace we are saved." Let us see the scripture verses. "Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)"... 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast." These verses say that the recipients of this epistle are saved. People may interpret that whoever read this epistle is saved. However, the salvation is by the love and mercy of God. It is also by the grace of God that was given freely. These are the data we gather from these verses. One more thing that is needed to be saved is the faith of the person. Yet, these verses miss another vital point. That is: What it means to be "Saved?"
In verses 2 and 3, God explains what is to be saved. God announces them as saved in verse 5 and 8. "Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." What is it in the verses 2 and 3? Verse 2 says that previously (in time past) they were committing sins, (a) walked according to the course of this world, (b) walked according to the prince of the power of the air, and (c) walked according to the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:. Verse 3 also says that previously (in time past) they were living in the lusts of their flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. Now they do not walk that way anymore. See, they are saved by grace. Their previous life style of sin became past history. Their new life does not have sin. Now they are saved by grace. This is the salvation given by God. Even after they are free from sinning, they still have to continue in Christ to stay saved. So, the cliché "once saved always saved" is not true.
3. Grace and Reward
We saw "salvation by grace" is: those who were living in sin are no longer living in sin. In other words, Jesus saved them from their sins. "Matt 1:21 ...call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." Those who were delivered from sin will live a righteous life. "Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." As they continue to be righteous they will become holy. "Romans 6:19 ... even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness." The holy life will be rewarded with the inheritance of heaven, even to be joint-heirs with Jesus Christ. "Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."
Most churches have false salvation. They teach a form of (counterfeit) godliness as grace, which will make a person religious. But this is false grace and it will deny the power to convert a sinner to righteous and holy living. "2 Tim 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away." With this false grace, a sinner will continue to live in sin. But he was taught to believe that he is saved while he is sinning. But as long as he is sinning, he is not saved. If he/she fear God to obey God, his/her name is written in the book of life. But unless he/she overcomes Satan, world and flesh, his/her name will be blot out from the book of life. If he/she overcomes he/she will inherit heaven, the kingdom of God. If not, the righteous judge, Jesus Christ, send him to the lake of fire. It appears cruel, but it is the truth. "Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name. 17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev 20:13 ... and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." The true grace of God will convert a sinner to righteous living. The righteous living will be rewarded with inheritance in heaven, even to be joint-heirs with the Lord Jesus Christ.
4. Saved, then Lost It
Salvation is an escape from sins. "Matt 1:21 … call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." If people, who were living in sin, have quit sin, then they are saved. Once saved, always saved means that those who quit sin will never sin again. The word of God gives no guaranty for this cliché. Let us see a few scripture verses in order to verify this.
"Matt 24:24 ... if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Jesus Christ says that even the very elect could be deceived. So, there is no guaranty for salvation.
"Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers." He was the servant of his Lord. But now Jesus Christ says that his lord will appoint him a portion in hell. He was once saved, now he is in hell.
"Luke 14:34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour,..." Jesus Christ says that salt may lose its savor. Once saved may become lost.
"John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." The person was already abiding in the vine. Now, he will be cut off and will be burned.
"Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." This is the warning of the Lord Jesus Christ. He has cut off many before. If you don't continue in his goodness, he will cut you off also. Once saved, you have to continue in salvation. Or else you will be cut off.
"1 Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy;" You are the temple of God. He lives in you. But, if you defile yourself with sin, God will destroy you. It is not once saved always saved.
"1 Cor 9:27 . I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." If Apostle Paul did not continue to keep his body in obedience, he would have been thrown away. That means salvation is not automatically kept. But we have to keep it.
"1 Cor 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." If we stand, be careful so that we may not fall. This caution shows that the position is not guaranteed.
"1 Cor 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." "If you keep in memory" is conditional. If they do not keep the memory of the preaching, they lose the position of salvation.
"Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." They were in grace and hence they were saved. Now they fell from grace. That is, salvation is lost. They were saved once. But now they are lost.
"2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,.." Few saved people that are saved will be deceived and fall away. So, saved is not always saved.
"1 Tim 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil." A new person who is saved is more vulnerable to fall into condemnation.
"1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;" The Holy Spirit says clearly that some saved persons will depart from faith and will be lost. They will preach the doctrine of devils.
"1 Tim 5:12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith." They were saved through faith. Then they cast off their faith and fell into damnation.
"1 Tim 5:15 For some are already turned aside after Satan." They were with God. But now they are with Satan. Once saved, now lost it for ever.
"Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" Partakers with God are departing from God. Sin is deceitful and will separate you from God. Once saved, if not steadfast, will lose it.
"Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." Those who once enjoyed the spiritual bliss of salvation may also fall away. They may not be allowed to come back. So, they have lost salvation permanently.
"Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." People can draw back from their salvation.
"Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God;" By grace you are saved. If you are not diligent you may fall from the grace of God, and lose the salvation.
"James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." If a saved person erred from the truth, it makes him a sinner who needs to be saved again. Saved from the error is saving his soul. That is, any time you are in error or in sin you lost your salvation.
"2 Peter 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam." They were in the right way and now gone astray. Once saved and now lost with Satan.
"2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning." Those who escaped sin may also fall into sin again.
"Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." They had fallen from salvation. Jesus Christ requires them to repent and get back.
"Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent." They have received and were holding fast, but now have to do it all over again since they lost it.
"Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,.." Once, their names were in the book of life. That is, they were saved. But God will blot out their names if they do not overcome. "Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." They will end up in the lake of fire. Once saved, but now lost it.
"Rev 3:16 ... because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." This church was living in the mouth of God. Now God will throw them out unless they become hot for God.
"Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." God has written their name in the book of life. But, if they reject any of his word, God will take their name out of the book of life. Then, they will be thrown into the lake of fire. That is, these who were once saved are now thrown into the lake of fire.
In spite of the overwhelming evidence to warn those who are saved that they can also lose their salvation, there are people who will not accept the word of God, but believe false doctrines.
5. Rebuttal: Once Saved Always Saved
In section one, we have seen the statements made by the Lord Jesus Christ and his apostles that if a person is sinning he/she is not saved but a sinner. If they stopped sinning then they are saved. In section two, we defined what salvation is from the Bible. In section three, we explained the true salvation as well as the false salvation. In section four, we quoted many Bible verses to show that "once saved always saved" is not a true doctrine. Since false doctrines are derived from selected scripture verses by manipulating them, we rebuttal a few such interpretations. We do not rebuttal all their arguments in this study. However, we are giving enough samples to show you how to find the truth by verifying the scripture verses in its contexts. If you have any questions or doubts of any doctrine or scripture verses you can e-mail me. I will send a reply as quick as possible. I assure you that my answers will be based on the word of God.
(A). Rebuttal: Believe on the Son
"John 3:14 ...as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." They quote these verses and preach to mean the following: The only requirement to be saved is to believe Jesus Christ, which they all do. So, they have everlasting life. Those who do not believe will face the wrath of God. This will not bother them since they all will continue to believe him. Their logic is good. By their logic, they got it made. But, there is one problem. What is it to "believe the Son" or to "believe Jesus Christ?"
Believe the Son is to believe what the Son has said. "John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings:.. Matt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." Jesus said the above verses. If they believe what he says, then they will either obey his commandments or they will know that they are rejected from the kingdom of God. This is truly believing Jesus Christ. But they believe something about him that is false and think that they believe him. They believe that Jesus Christ will take them to heaven, no matter what they do. This is cool. But, God did not tell them to believe their own statement about Jesus Christ for their salvation, but to believe what Jesus Christ told them for their salvation. If they believe what he told, then they will do what he wants them to do for their salvation. Nobody can cheat God.
(B). Rebuttal: Saved without Works, so Kept without Works
They say: the Bible makes it clear that our works has nothing whatsoever to do with our salvation. We didn't receive it by our works. So, we don't keep it by our works. Then they quote the following scripture verses to prove their point. "Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,... Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."
These verses are mini Bible to many preachers and believers. They emphasize three points for salvation. (i) "according to his mercy he saved us, and by grace are ye saved." (ii) We are saved "not by works of righteousness which we have done, it is not of yourselves and not of works, lest any man should boast." (iii) We are "saved through faith; it is the gift of God:" Let us review these points in the light of the scriptures without manipulating the verses.
(i). According to his mercy he saved us, and by grace are ye saved
This statement is true. However, false teachers twist the meaning of these three words, (a) saved, (b) grace and (c) mercy and give an entirely different meaning and deceive the believers. So it is important to study the meaning of these words.
(a). Saved: Persons who are sinning are sinners, no matter what they claim. Refer section 1, "Doctrine of Jesus Christ." It explains who sinners are. This will help us not to consider a sinner as a saved person. Refer section 2, "What is Salvation." It explains the true meaning of the word "saved." Those who are converted from the past filthy unjust life to the holy righteous life are saved. Nobody will be saved by the word of their mouth. It should be proven by their living. If their mouth confession is not the reality of their life, then they are liars but are not saved persons. Nobody can trick or deceive God.
(b). Grace: Most Christians think that grace is a free ticket to heaven, given to sinning Christians, since they believe the story of Jesus. This is not true. Grace is a gift from God, given only to true believers, who obey God with love, sincerity and humbleness. "Eph 6:24 Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. 1Peter 5:5 ... be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble." Grace is a spiritual gift package that contains three things. They are (1) doctrine of Jesus Christ, (2) power of the Holy Spirit, and (3) the abiding of God. They are given as grace upon grace as believers needed them. Grace will strengthen true believer to overcome the world, flesh and Satan. Believers don't have to do the ceremonial work of circumcision or any such church ordinance or ceremony, but they will have to use the grace of God to overcome sin for their salvation.
(c). Mercy: The love and compassion of God, which is God's mercy, forgives the past sins of a person who overcomes sin. Forgiveness is offered by the blood of the Lamb of God. "Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;" False preachers say that the blood of Jesus forgives the past, present and future sins. This is a lie of the devil. The forgiveness of God, which is provided by the blood of Jesus, is for the past sins only. If they take the blood of Jesus for granted and try to use it for the present and future sins, then severe damnation will be upon them. Reference is Heb 10: 26-31.
We are in the fast food culture. Preachers use this principle to promote their business. They don't realize that salvation is God's business. They offer ready made forgiveness, instant salvation, quick access to the throne, etc. Nobody can deceive God. God forgives only those who have repented truthfully. The broken hearted sinner will have a contrite spirit. He will accept the grace of God that converts a sinner to a just holy person. God forgives his past sins after the person is justified, but not before. "Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;" Justified is to convert a person from being unjust into being just and to testify that person is righteous. Just person is a righteous person. If a sinner starts to walk in the light as God is in the light, then only the blood of Jesus Christ will apply to him and he will be forgiven from the past sins. If a person keeps on sinning, it is not the principle of God to keep on forgiving the past sins. God says that Jesus died once and he is not dying daily. "1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." Forgiveness is free to a converted sinner but not to a sinning Christian.
(ii). We are saved without our works of righteousness
If you are doing righteousness, you are already saved, (Refer Section 2: What is salvation?). Jesus did not come to save the saved. Those who live in unrighteousness need salvation. God has mercy for the unrighteous people and saves them from unrighteousness. It is a process. After the process, if they don't do the works of righteousness, then their salvation is false. They are not saved, because saved people walk in the path of righteousness. Let us study how God changes an unrighteous person into a righteous person. Let me quote the verse. "Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, (a) by the washing of regeneration, and (b) renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being (c) justified by his grace, (d) we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Eph 2:10 For (e) we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that (e) we should walk in them." Please follow the five (a-e) steps from the above verses.
(a) By the washing of regeneration: Jesus Christ washes away the carnal body that are dead in sins and regenerate them as spiritual body for the new creature, which will not sin. This person will be dead to sin and will live in Christ.
(b) Renewing of the Holy Ghost: The Holy Ghost makes the person totally new. "2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
(c) Justified by his grace: Justified means, converted from being an unjust person into a just person. It is not calling an unjust person as righteous person, which will be a lie. The devil will lie, but God will not. The Lord Jesus Christ, by steps 'a' and 'b', has converted an unjust person to a righteous person.
(d) We should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life: Eternal life is the reward for the works of righteousness. God will keep those who live a holy life to be with him and to rule for him. (Please refer Section 3: "Grace and Reward")
(e) We are his workmanship that we should walk in righteousness: Let us look into one more scripture, which they often quote. "Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." False preachers are very happy to preach verses 8 and 9. But they pretend as verse 10 does not exist. Verses 8 and 9 say that we did not do any works and we were bankrupt on righteousness. Verse 8 says that God gave grace and verse 10 says that God did a work on us. In response to the work of God, the person will do the works of righteousness and walk in the life of holiness. This person is saved. If this change did not happen in the person then, God has not done his work, has not given his grace and has not saved the person, no matter what the person professes. Yes, the saved persons may have not done any works before, but they are doing the works of righteousness after salvation. If God did the work of conversion, the proof is the holy and righteous life of the person.
(iii) We are Saved through Faith
False preachers also admit that we must have faith in order to be to be saved. But, they have their own versions of faith. Among the many versions, they use the following statement for this context. They say Jesus Christ has finished the work of our salvation on the cross, since he proclaimed, "it is finished." So, faith is to make a statement: "they are saved by the finished work of Jesus Christ and by his work alone." They say this and think they are saved through faith.
Then what is true Faith? "Heb 11:1 ... faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Here, two examples are given for faith, (1) the substance of things hoped for. (2) the evidence of things not seen.
(1) Substance of the Hope: The hope of a believer is that they will see him on the day of his coming. "Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;" The substance of that hope is that they will purify themselves as he was pure. "1 John 3:2 ... but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." They will purify themselves and be pure. Faith is not making just a statement, but faith is purifying themselves as Jesus Christ is pure for the hope of eternal life.
(2) Evidence of things not seen: (1) and (2) are the same, since they are synonyms for faith. The evidence that all can see is the pure life of the believer, since he/she "purifieth himself, even as he is pure." Things not seen are in eternity, "it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him."
Through faith we will be saved. The vision of the coming Lord of lords and king of kings, who is the Glorified Lord Jesus Christ, will purify the life of a believer. This is the true faith. Mere statements without conversion are not faith, but lies. Those who do not have this vision of the Glorious Lord cannot have this faith. Only through this faith believers are saved.
C. Rebuttal: It is a Free Gift; Don't have to Work to Keep it
They say that salvation is a free gift from God. If we had to work to keep it, then it would not be a free gift. So we don't have to do anything to keep it. So, they think that if we are once saved we are always saved. They have a very good logic. Then they quote the two following verses to support their logic. "Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." But, this is a deceptive way of quoting the scripture to prove what they want to prove. The verses should be presented to bring the truth of God to light. Let us look at the verses in their context.
(i) The gift of God is eternal life (verse 23)
The gift of God, the eternal life, is not given to a person who is keep on sinning. But it was given to a person, who was a sinner but obeyed God and was made free from committing sin. This person is made righteous and holy and now he is ashamed of the sins that he had committed. As this person continues as such, at the end Jesus Christ gives him/her the gift of eternal life. "Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 ... now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." It all summarizes in the last verse saying, sinning people will get eternal death, others receive the gift of God, the eternal life. Verse 23 is not an island by itself, but the summary of verses 16 to 22.
We all started as servants of sin. That means we were all sinners. Verse 17 says "but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you", that is, (1) they obeyed the commandments of Jesus Christ. Verse 18 says "made free from sin", that is, (2) they do not sin any more. They "became the servants of righteousness", that is, (3) now they are righteous and serve God. Verse 19 says, they became "servants to righteousness unto holiness", that is, (4) they are living a holy life. Verse 21 says that "those things whereof ye are now ashamed", that is, (5) they are ashamed of the past life of sin, which could have taken them to eternal death. Verse 22 says, (6) they have "being made free from sin, and become servants to God", (7) they have "your fruit unto holiness" produced evidence of holiness in their life, and "the end everlasting life." These things are the cause of eternal life. The summary of the verses 17 to 22 is in verse 23. It says, (A) whoever is sinning will face eternal death and (B) the gift of God is eternal life. That is, (B) the eternal life given to the person by the above seven steps that is explained from verse 17 to 22. However, the sinning person will face eternal damnation. The saint, who was once a sinner and is not sinning anymore, will receive eternal life as free gift from God. But false preachers say; a sinning person gets this free gift, which is the twist of the truth.
(ii) The free gift came upon all men
Let us see verse 18 also with its context. "Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." (You may read verses 12- 21) In general the reference is the comparison of Adam to Jesus Christ. Though we do not do exactly what Adam did, the nature of disobedience is on us. This is sin and it will bring eternal death. Contrary to Adam, when Jesus Christ was a man, he received abundant grace from God and lived righteous life, being totally obedient to God. Now, Jesus Christ gives abundant grace to the obedient people to make them righteous and holy.
Verse 17 says, Adam's sin nature brings eternal death to all. But those sinners, who receive the abundant grace from Jesus Christ, will receive a righteous nature as a gift. Because of their righteous nature, they will live a righteous life and this life cause them to receive a reward to reign with Jesus Christ in eternal life. Verse 18 says: Because the nature of Adam is on all of us, condemnation is upon all people. In the same way, because of the righteous nature of Jesus Christ, which is available to everybody, eternal life is also upon all people. That is, the condemnation as well as the eternal life is upon everybody. But the eternal life will be given on one condition. The righteousness of Jesus Christ must change them to justification. It is to make the person as a just person, who is righteous. "Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." This verse is the summary of verses 12-20 that concludes the chapter. It says, if a person is sinning, he will face eternal death. But, grace will convert a person to righteous living. Lord Jesus Christ gives eternal life as a reward for their righteous life. Jesus Christ gives his grace free, the righteous nature free, the eternal life free, and the privilege to reign with him free. All are free to those sinners who follow him in righteousness. The free gifts are not for sinners who still enjoy sinning and call themselves saved.
D. Rebuttal: Born Again as Sons: Cannot negate Our Birth
They convince their congregation that they are children of God by these verses. "1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God,... Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father." We will study these two verses as item (i) and (ii).
After convincing that they are the children of God, they apply their logic that goes like this: Your children will always be your children no matter what happens. You may have troubles and may have broken fellowship, yet they are your children and nothing can change that. Then they say, we all are children of God and nothing negates that. No matter what we do, we will still be the children of God. If this logic is true, we are in big trouble, since we all started as the children of the devil. "1 John 3:10 ... the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do." What will they say now? Will they say, since we started as the children of the devil nothing can negate that? Thank God, this logic is absurd and it is not true.
We all are the children of our parents. They gave birth to us and we came from their body. We did not come from the body of God, but God will glorify and adopts his sons/daughters. "John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God... 2 Cor 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. Romans 8:15 ...ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father." However, let us look at the two verses they quoted and analyze it in their context.
(i) Now are we the sons of God
They quote "Beloved, now are we the sons of God" from 1 John 3:2, and connect the word "beloved" to a sinner, to mean that God calls a sinner as his son. But 1 John 2:29, tells us who are the sons of God. "1 John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him." It says, whoever doing righteousness are sons of God. In other words, those who are living a righteous life are sons of God. "1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not." It says, God call us as his sons because of his love toward us. Then it says that we have become like God to the extent the worldly people who do not know God, do not know us either. "1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." Verse 3 says, even though they are righteous, they are striving to be as pure as even Jesus of Nazareth was pure. People with such a love and dedication are called the sons of God, in the Bible. It is a sad distortion, when anybody call the sinners (sinning Christians), who still love sin and living in it, as sons of God.
(ii) You have received the Spirit of adoption
They quote Romans 8:15 in such a fashion to show that every sinner who believe their version of the story of Jesus Christ has received the Spirit and they can call God as their Father. Let us analyze the verse in its context. "Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." These people have the same Spirit as Jesus and they will be raised from the dead as the same way Jesus was raised from the dead. "Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." These verses say that those who live after the flesh will have eternal death and those who mortify the body of sin, through the Spirit of God, will have eternal life. "Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." Verse 14 says, those who have mortified the body of sin by the leading of the Spirit are sons of God. Verse 15 refers the Spirit that mortified their body of sin as the Spirit of adoption. If their body of sin is not mortified they do not have the Spirit of adoption. "Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father." False teachers refer this verse to the sinning Christians, who live in the flesh, and who have no Spirit.
6. The Old Lie of Satan
God created the man from the dust of the earth. Adam was created as a man. Then, God sent his breath into Adam, which is the spirit of man and made him a living soul, who had the everlasting life. God put him in the Garden of Eden, which is the paradise of God. "Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Rev 2:7 ...the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."
God and Satan preached their messages to Adam and Eve. God told Adam that he will surely die the eternal death if they disobey God, which is to eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Satan told Eve that they already have eternal life, which is the breath of God. They are already in the Garden of Eden, which is the paradise of God. They are already saved. "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED" So, surely they will not die the eternal death even if they disobey God. "Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:" Eve was convinced of Satan rather than of God. Satan succeeded in deceiving Eve. Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. God punished Satan, Adam and Eve. They lost the eternal life.
7. Servants of Satan Preach False Doctrines
Today the workers of Satan are presenting themselves as pastors and evangelists of Jesus Christ. They preach the word of God to mean just the opposite to what God says. "2 Cor 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness;... Matt 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." So, we have be careful so that we may not be deceived by these kinds of evangelists and pastors.
Any true doctrine of the Bible will agree with the wholesome word of God. It will agree with the teachings of Jesus Christ. It will agree with the doctrine of godliness. A doctrine that contradicts any of these three is a false doctrine and it is not of God. "1 Tim 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself." So, if a doctrine does not consent with the wholesome words of God, teachings of Jesus Christ and of godliness, then it is of the devil and we must reject them.
The lie of the old serpent still goes forth through his servants. They preach to Christian sinners that they are already saved. Then they guarantee them that sinners will not lose their salvation, as if they got it. They say: Once Saved, Always Saved. "2 Peter 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage." Preachers promise eternal life to sinning Christians. While they promise heaven, they themselves are going to hell. The truth is, if a person is overcome by sin, he/she is a slave to sin and not saved. Don’t trust the false preachers. They are servants of the devil. Trust God. Believe the truth. God will bless you.
If we love God with reverential fear, we will obey God - We will stop sinning.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

barry,

Great Bible Study.com http://www.greatbiblestudy.com/legal.php

Does not allow you to copy their articles to this BBS.

They have been removed.

quote:
By accessing this Web site, you are bound to these terms.

Copyrights
U.S. copyright laws protect this Web site, including all text, images and other forms of content. You may not copy, modify, or reverse engineer any portion or part of this Web site, without permission from its owner.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Is eternal security Biblical?

When people come to know Christ as their Savior, they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their eternal security. Jude 24 declares, "To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy." God's power is able to keep the believer from falling. It is up to Him, not us, to present us before His glorious presence. Our eternal security is a result of God keeping us, not us maintaining our own salvation.

The Lord Jesus Christ proclaimed, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:28-29b). Both Jesus and the Father have us firmly grasped in their hand. Who could possibly separate us from the grip of both the Father and the Son?

Ephesians 4:30 tells us that believers are "sealed for the day of redemption." If believers did not have eternal security, the sealing could not truly be unto the day of redemption, but only to the day of sinning, apostasy, or disbelief. John 3:15-16 tells us that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If a person were to be promised eternal life, but then have it taken away, it was never "eternal" to begin with. If eternal security is not true, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error.

The most powerful argument for eternal security is Romans 8:38-39, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Our eternal security is based on God's love for those whom He has redeemed. Our eternal security is purchased by Christ, promised by the Father, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

http://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-security.html

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Im sorry i did not know when i [posted those articles that i could not use them: Sister Carol

i saw the link where you had posted from thier website so i thought it was ok..

So i posted:

[Confused]

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

The link to the sight is:

This is the article that was removed because of copyright laws:

http://www.greatbiblestudy.com/once-saved_always-saved.php

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

I post the links that go to their website, but I don't copy their articles here. I'd like to though! If I did copy one of their articles here, please let me know so I can delete it.

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Confessing Jesus or Denying the Lord Jesus Christ is the "saved / not saved" main issue. It is something THAT WE DO, based on our beliefs. People who argue for OSAS will often say, "There's nothing you can DO to become saved, or it will be works. Therefore, there is nothing you can DO to become unsaved, you can't GAIN or LOSE salvation based on what you do." Well, the first premise is wrong, because to be saved, one has to DO quite a lot; first be willing to hear the message, second, believe it in faith, third, repent of your sins, and fourth, confess that you believe God rose Jesus from the dead, and fifth, continue in the faith. And the act a person takes that leads to salvation is the opposite act one takes as a result of falling away from the faith. Confession or Denial of Jesus!

The other common thing people who belive OSAS often say in the debate is "how much or which sin would actually cause one to be unsaved? If we can lose salvation, where do we draw the line? or How much sin can I get away with?" Again, it seems they forget the key issue, belief in Jesus and confession of Him.

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Luke 12:9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Exodus 32:33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
Psalm 69:28, Deuteronomy 29:20

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

The ACT of confessing Jesus is not only important to salvation, but also for determining who goes to heaven in the rapture.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my
word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.

Some scholars have tried to deny that Matthew 10:32 applies to them, saying it's for the Jews, or people of a different dispensation. However, this same theme is found, as quoted above, in the Epistles: Timothy, Romans, Jude. It's found in Revelation. It's found in the Old Testament. It's a theme of the entire Bible!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The process of falling away, and changing one's beliefs, which eventually can lead a person to deny Jesus, is described in many verses.
Given all of the ways to fall away from the faith, the Bible tells us to examine ourselves, and work out our salvation with fear. Sometimes religious people who may believe OSAS become very offended if you preach to them anything that might question their salvation. They say, "How dare you!". Well, I dare because scripture commands us to question our salvation.

2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

1 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Next is a list of the things lead to falling away from the faith and belief in Jesus.
Falling away & being rejected by God, can be the result of (each verse quoted in full below):

for lack of knowledge & rejected knowledge Hosea 4:6
that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not Matt 7:24-27
hearers only, deceiving your own selves James 1:22
beareth not fruit & abide not in me John 15:2,6
not a doer & forgetteth what manner of man he was James 1:22-24
faith without works is dead Jam 2:17-26
he that lacketh & hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins 2 Peter 1:9
unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures 2 Peter 3:16
err from the truth James 5:19-20
lust, and enticed James 1:13-16
the love of money 1 Timothy 6:10
be a friend of the world James 4:4
the pollutions of the world & again entangled therein & turned to his own vomit again 2 Peter 2:20-22
the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word Matt 13:22
have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away Luke 8:13
tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended Matt 13:21
be without chastisement Hebrews 12:6-8
servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death Romans 6:16
being led away with the error of the wicked 2 Peter 3:17
seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils 1 Timothy 4:1
an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Hebrews 3:12-15
sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth Hebrews 10:26
having put away concerning faith & blaspheme 1 Timothy 1:18-20:
counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing Hebrews 10:29
Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Matt 7:
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

James 1:22-24
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] thatbeareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

2 Peter 1:1-10
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

2 Peter 3:
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

James 5:
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

James 1:13-16
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

2 Peter 2:
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Matt 13:
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Matt 13:
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Hebrews 12
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

2 Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

Hebrews 3:12-15
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

1 Timothy 1:18-20:
18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Hebrews 10:
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

The person who believes OSAS often will look at all the evidence above and conclude that if a person "falls away" he was never really saved to begin with. I'm sorry, the Bible never says, "he who falls away was never really saved to begin with". All the messages and exhortations and warnings about falling away are written to believers.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The need to CONTINUE & ENDURE
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Acts 14:21,22
21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch,
22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

1 Timothy 4:
15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Romans 11:
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Colossians 1:
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Paul Preached He, Himself, might not be saved!
1 Corinthians 9:24-27
24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Philippians 3
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Six words that KILL OSAS. "I go, sir: and went not" vs. "he repented, and went"
There is a story of a man who makes a verbal declaration of obedience, but ends up disobeying.

Matt 21:
28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

Thus, a single one-time declaration of obdeince does not guarantee salvation!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If a person falls away from his rightousness then he shall die
Ezekiel 18
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25 Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the LORD is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hebrews 6
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come *1,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

(*1) Does "the world to come" refer to the post millennium rebellion?
Rev 20:
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Matthew 12
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

1 Kings 8:39 Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men;)

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

1 John 1
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Heb 3:14 - "We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the END the confidence we had at first.
John 12:36 - "Put your trust in the light while you have it, so that you may BECOME sons of light."
1 CO 9:24 - "Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? RUN in such a way as to get the prize."
2 Titus 4:7 - "I have fought the good fight, I have FINISHED THE RACE, I have kept the faith."
Heb 12:1 - "Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and LET US RUN with perseverance the race marked out for us."
Phil 3:14 - "I PRESS ON toward the goal to win the prize"
REV 2:26 - "To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations
REV 3:21 - "To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jeremiah 8:20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scriptures used to try and support OSAS & Eternal Security, yet do not refute, in any way the truths presented above.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Proverbs 14:14 The backslider in heart shall be filled with his own ways: and a good man shall be satisfied from himself.

1 John 3:
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2 Timothy 2:13 "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you FOREVER.

John 17:2 "As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him."

Ephesians 2:
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Jude 24 "Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy"

2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Romans 8
28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 3
3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.
4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Heb 13:
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the EVERLASTING COVENANT,
21 MAKE you perfect in every good work to do his will, WORKING in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, THROUGH Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.Let's remember to humble ourselves knowing it is only God's Grace who saves man.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if [it be] yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

http://www.bibleprophesy.org/alwayssaved.htm

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

barry,

Thanks for the link. Jason has some good teaching on the pre-tribulation rapture. [thumbsup2]

http://www.bibleprophesy.org/index.html

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

Your welcome my sister, i want to study what he has posted thier and i knew you would like it, butim not afraid of any scriptures, and if im wrong about a doctrine prayerfully i will change [Smile]

He has a lot of stuff on his website, will take some time..... [thumbsup2]

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

ENOUGH SAID!

[thumbsup2]