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Author
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Topic: Once Saved Always Saved ?? - Part 1 & 2 of 3
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barrykind
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Member # 35
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ENOUGH SAID!
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35
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posted
Your welcome my sister, i want to study what he has posted thier and i knew you would like it, butim not afraid of any scriptures, and if im wrong about a doctrine prayerfully i will change ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
He has a lot of stuff on his website, will take some time.....
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35
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posted
Confessing Jesus or Denying the Lord Jesus Christ is the "saved / not saved" main issue. It is something THAT WE DO, based on our beliefs. People who argue for OSAS will often say, "There's nothing you can DO to become saved, or it will be works. Therefore, there is nothing you can DO to become unsaved, you can't GAIN or LOSE salvation based on what you do." Well, the first premise is wrong, because to be saved, one has to DO quite a lot; first be willing to hear the message, second, believe it in faith, third, repent of your sins, and fourth, confess that you believe God rose Jesus from the dead, and fifth, continue in the faith. And the act a person takes that leads to salvation is the opposite act one takes as a result of falling away from the faith. Confession or Denial of Jesus!
The other common thing people who belive OSAS often say in the debate is "how much or which sin would actually cause one to be unsaved? If we can lose salvation, where do we draw the line? or How much sin can I get away with?" Again, it seems they forget the key issue, belief in Jesus and confession of Him.
2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Luke 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Luke 12:9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Exodus 32:33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
Psalm 69:28, Deuteronomy 29:20
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
The ACT of confessing Jesus is not only important to salvation, but also for determining who goes to heaven in the rapture.
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my
word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.
Some scholars have tried to deny that Matthew 10:32 applies to them, saying it's for the Jews, or people of a different dispensation. However, this same theme is found, as quoted above, in the Epistles: Timothy, Romans, Jude. It's found in Revelation. It's found in the Old Testament. It's a theme of the entire Bible!
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The process of falling away, and changing one's beliefs, which eventually can lead a person to deny Jesus, is described in many verses.
Given all of the ways to fall away from the faith, the Bible tells us to examine ourselves, and work out our salvation with fear. Sometimes religious people who may believe OSAS become very offended if you preach to them anything that might question their salvation. They say, "How dare you!". Well, I dare because scripture commands us to question our salvation.
2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.
Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
1 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
Next is a list of the things lead to falling away from the faith and belief in Jesus.
Falling away & being rejected by God, can be the result of (each verse quoted in full below):
for lack of knowledge & rejected knowledge Hosea 4:6
that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not Matt 7:24-27
hearers only, deceiving your own selves James 1:22
beareth not fruit & abide not in me John 15:2,6
not a doer & forgetteth what manner of man he was James 1:22-24
faith without works is dead Jam 2:17-26
he that lacketh & hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins 2 Peter 1:9
unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures 2 Peter 3:16
err from the truth James 5:19-20
lust, and enticed James 1:13-16
the love of money 1 Timothy 6:10
be a friend of the world James 4:4
the pollutions of the world & again entangled therein & turned to his own vomit again 2 Peter 2:20-22
the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word Matt 13:22
have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away Luke 8:13
tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended Matt 13:21
be without chastisement Hebrews 12:6-8
servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death Romans 6:16
being led away with the error of the wicked 2 Peter 3:17
seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils 1 Timothy 4:1
an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Hebrews 3:12-15
sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth Hebrews 10:26
having put away concerning faith & blaspheme 1 Timothy 1:18-20:
counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing Hebrews 10:29
Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Matt 7:
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
James 1:22-24
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] thatbeareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
2 Peter 1:1-10
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2 Peter 3:
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
James 5:
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
James 1:13-16
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
2 Peter 2:
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Matt 13:
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Matt 13:
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Hebrews 12
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
2 Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.
Hebrews 3:12-15
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
1 Timothy 1:18-20:
18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
Hebrews 10:
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
The person who believes OSAS often will look at all the evidence above and conclude that if a person "falls away" he was never really saved to begin with. I'm sorry, the Bible never says, "he who falls away was never really saved to begin with". All the messages and exhortations and warnings about falling away are written to believers.
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The need to CONTINUE & ENDURE
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Acts 14:21,22
21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch,
22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
1 Timothy 4:
15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
Romans 11:
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Colossians 1:
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
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Paul Preached He, Himself, might not be saved!
1 Corinthians 9:24-27
24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Philippians 3
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
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Six words that KILL OSAS. "I go, sir: and went not" vs. "he repented, and went"
There is a story of a man who makes a verbal declaration of obedience, but ends up disobeying.
Matt 21:
28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
Thus, a single one-time declaration of obdeince does not guarantee salvation!
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If a person falls away from his rightousness then he shall die
Ezekiel 18
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25 Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the LORD is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
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Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
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Hebrews 6
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come *1,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
(*1) Does "the world to come" refer to the post millennium rebellion?
Rev 20:
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Matthew 12
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
1 Kings 8:39 Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men;)
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
1 John 1
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
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Heb 3:14 - "We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the END the confidence we had at first.
John 12:36 - "Put your trust in the light while you have it, so that you may BECOME sons of light."
1 CO 9:24 - "Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? RUN in such a way as to get the prize."
2 Titus 4:7 - "I have fought the good fight, I have FINISHED THE RACE, I have kept the faith."
Heb 12:1 - "Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and LET US RUN with perseverance the race marked out for us."
Phil 3:14 - "I PRESS ON toward the goal to win the prize"
REV 2:26 - "To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations
REV 3:21 - "To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne".
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Jeremiah 8:20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.
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Scriptures used to try and support OSAS & Eternal Security, yet do not refute, in any way the truths presented above.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Proverbs 14:14 The backslider in heart shall be filled with his own ways: and a good man shall be satisfied from himself.
1 John 3:
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2 Timothy 2:13 "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."
1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you FOREVER.
John 17:2 "As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him."
Ephesians 2:
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Jude 24 "Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy"
2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Romans 8
28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 3
3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.
4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heb 13:
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the EVERLASTING COVENANT,
21 MAKE you perfect in every good work to do his will, WORKING in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, THROUGH Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.Let's remember to humble ourselves knowing it is only God's Grace who saves man.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if [it be] yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
http://www.bibleprophesy.org/alwayssaved.htm
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Carol Swenson
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I post the links that go to their website, but I don't copy their articles here. I'd like to though! If I did copy one of their articles here, please let me know so I can delete it.
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barrykind
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Im sorry i did not know when i [posted those articles that i could not use them: Sister Carol
i saw the link where you had posted from thier website so i thought it was ok..
So i posted:
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Carol Swenson
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Is eternal security Biblical?
When people come to know Christ as their Savior, they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their eternal security. Jude 24 declares, "To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy." God's power is able to keep the believer from falling. It is up to Him, not us, to present us before His glorious presence. Our eternal security is a result of God keeping us, not us maintaining our own salvation.
The Lord Jesus Christ proclaimed, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:28-29b). Both Jesus and the Father have us firmly grasped in their hand. Who could possibly separate us from the grip of both the Father and the Son?
Ephesians 4:30 tells us that believers are "sealed for the day of redemption." If believers did not have eternal security, the sealing could not truly be unto the day of redemption, but only to the day of sinning, apostasy, or disbelief. John 3:15-16 tells us that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If a person were to be promised eternal life, but then have it taken away, it was never "eternal" to begin with. If eternal security is not true, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error.
The most powerful argument for eternal security is Romans 8:38-39, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Our eternal security is based on God's love for those whom He has redeemed. Our eternal security is purchased by Christ, promised by the Father, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.
http://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-security.html
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Carol Swenson
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barry,
Great Bible Study.com http://www.greatbiblestudy.com/legal.php
Does not allow you to copy their articles to this BBS.
They have been removed.
quote:
By accessing this Web site, you are bound to these terms.
Copyrights
U.S. copyright laws protect this Web site, including all text, images and other forms of content. You may not copy, modify, or reverse engineer any portion or part of this Web site, without permission from its owner.
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barrykind
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"Once Saved Always Saved" is a Doctrine of Deception
'Once saved always saved' is a subtle twist by false teachers. It is a doctrine of deception. According to them ‘saved’ is a status that inherits heaven. Once we got it we will not lose it no matter what we do. That is, even if a saved man rapes and kills a girl, surely he will go to heaven while the unsaved victim goes to hell. It is ridiculous before the holy God.
Many doctrines were founded using the Scripture. They can be divided into two groups. They are, true doctrines and false doctrines. Those which agree with the doctrine of Jesus Christ are true doctrines and those which have conflicts with the doctrine of Jesus Christ are false doctrines. Denominations make doctrines. However, God inspires true doctrine and Satan inspires false doctrines. Both use the word of God. False workers preach false doctrines. Now, let us analyze "once saved always saved” doctrine.
1. Doctrine of Jesus Christ
The doctrine of Jesus Christ is more important in the scripture. Christ says that as long a person is sinning; he is the servant of sin. "John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." It is a very direct statement of the Lord Jesus Christ. It should have superseded Christian theology. The word of God continued to come through the apostles as apostle's doctrine. But theologians ignores them. Listen to the statement of Apostle Paul: "Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." Listen to the statement of Apostle Peter: "2 Peter 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage." Listen to the statement of Apostle John: "1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." Here we see that the work of Satan is to make the people to commit sin. God will destroy the works of Satan, which is the sinning of his people, and will save them from their sins. "Matt 1:21 ... his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." If the work of the devil in them is not destroyed, they are not saved from sin. Yet, preachers teach that they are saved when they are not saved and they say "once saved always saved."
The crux of the doctrine of salvation is the fact that as long as a person is sinning he is a sinner. Since he/she is not saved from sinning, this person is not saved. Let us apply that to our topic. "Once Saved" means "Once a person stopped sinning." "Always Saved" means "Always the person will stay without Sinning." Even if we give this true meaning, still the statement "once saved always saved" is not according to the word of God. "1 Cor 10:12 ... let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." But they interpret the word of God according to the teachings of the devil, with a twist or a spin in it.
2. What is Salvation?
Everybody knows the scripture that says "by grace we are saved." Let us see the scripture verses. "Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)"... 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast." These verses say that the recipients of this epistle are saved. People may interpret that whoever read this epistle is saved. However, the salvation is by the love and mercy of God. It is also by the grace of God that was given freely. These are the data we gather from these verses. One more thing that is needed to be saved is the faith of the person. Yet, these verses miss another vital point. That is: What it means to be "Saved?"
In verses 2 and 3, God explains what is to be saved. God announces them as saved in verse 5 and 8. "Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." What is it in the verses 2 and 3? Verse 2 says that previously (in time past) they were committing sins, (a) walked according to the course of this world, (b) walked according to the prince of the power of the air, and (c) walked according to the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:. Verse 3 also says that previously (in time past) they were living in the lusts of their flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. Now they do not walk that way anymore. See, they are saved by grace. Their previous life style of sin became past history. Their new life does not have sin. Now they are saved by grace. This is the salvation given by God. Even after they are free from sinning, they still have to continue in Christ to stay saved. So, the cliché "once saved always saved" is not true.
3. Grace and Reward
We saw "salvation by grace" is: those who were living in sin are no longer living in sin. In other words, Jesus saved them from their sins. "Matt 1:21 ...call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." Those who were delivered from sin will live a righteous life. "Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." As they continue to be righteous they will become holy. "Romans 6:19 ... even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness." The holy life will be rewarded with the inheritance of heaven, even to be joint-heirs with Jesus Christ. "Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."
Most churches have false salvation. They teach a form of (counterfeit) godliness as grace, which will make a person religious. But this is false grace and it will deny the power to convert a sinner to righteous and holy living. "2 Tim 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away." With this false grace, a sinner will continue to live in sin. But he was taught to believe that he is saved while he is sinning. But as long as he is sinning, he is not saved. If he/she fear God to obey God, his/her name is written in the book of life. But unless he/she overcomes Satan, world and flesh, his/her name will be blot out from the book of life. If he/she overcomes he/she will inherit heaven, the kingdom of God. If not, the righteous judge, Jesus Christ, send him to the lake of fire. It appears cruel, but it is the truth. "Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name. 17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev 20:13 ... and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." The true grace of God will convert a sinner to righteous living. The righteous living will be rewarded with inheritance in heaven, even to be joint-heirs with the Lord Jesus Christ.
4. Saved, then Lost It
Salvation is an escape from sins. "Matt 1:21 … call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." If people, who were living in sin, have quit sin, then they are saved. Once saved, always saved means that those who quit sin will never sin again. The word of God gives no guaranty for this cliché. Let us see a few scripture verses in order to verify this.
"Matt 24:24 ... if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Jesus Christ says that even the very elect could be deceived. So, there is no guaranty for salvation.
"Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers." He was the servant of his Lord. But now Jesus Christ says that his lord will appoint him a portion in hell. He was once saved, now he is in hell.
"Luke 14:34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour,..." Jesus Christ says that salt may lose its savor. Once saved may become lost.
"John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." The person was already abiding in the vine. Now, he will be cut off and will be burned.
"Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." This is the warning of the Lord Jesus Christ. He has cut off many before. If you don't continue in his goodness, he will cut you off also. Once saved, you have to continue in salvation. Or else you will be cut off.
"1 Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy;" You are the temple of God. He lives in you. But, if you defile yourself with sin, God will destroy you. It is not once saved always saved.
"1 Cor 9:27 . I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." If Apostle Paul did not continue to keep his body in obedience, he would have been thrown away. That means salvation is not automatically kept. But we have to keep it.
"1 Cor 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." If we stand, be careful so that we may not fall. This caution shows that the position is not guaranteed.
"1 Cor 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." "If you keep in memory" is conditional. If they do not keep the memory of the preaching, they lose the position of salvation.
"Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." They were in grace and hence they were saved. Now they fell from grace. That is, salvation is lost. They were saved once. But now they are lost.
"2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,.." Few saved people that are saved will be deceived and fall away. So, saved is not always saved.
"1 Tim 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil." A new person who is saved is more vulnerable to fall into condemnation.
"1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;" The Holy Spirit says clearly that some saved persons will depart from faith and will be lost. They will preach the doctrine of devils.
"1 Tim 5:12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith." They were saved through faith. Then they cast off their faith and fell into damnation.
"1 Tim 5:15 For some are already turned aside after Satan." They were with God. But now they are with Satan. Once saved, now lost it for ever.
"Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" Partakers with God are departing from God. Sin is deceitful and will separate you from God. Once saved, if not steadfast, will lose it.
"Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." Those who once enjoyed the spiritual bliss of salvation may also fall away. They may not be allowed to come back. So, they have lost salvation permanently.
"Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." People can draw back from their salvation.
"Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God;" By grace you are saved. If you are not diligent you may fall from the grace of God, and lose the salvation.
"James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." If a saved person erred from the truth, it makes him a sinner who needs to be saved again. Saved from the error is saving his soul. That is, any time you are in error or in sin you lost your salvation.
"2 Peter 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam." They were in the right way and now gone astray. Once saved and now lost with Satan.
"2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning." Those who escaped sin may also fall into sin again.
"Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." They had fallen from salvation. Jesus Christ requires them to repent and get back.
"Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent." They have received and were holding fast, but now have to do it all over again since they lost it.
"Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,.." Once, their names were in the book of life. That is, they were saved. But God will blot out their names if they do not overcome. "Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." They will end up in the lake of fire. Once saved, but now lost it.
"Rev 3:16 ... because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." This church was living in the mouth of God. Now God will throw them out unless they become hot for God.
"Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." God has written their name in the book of life. But, if they reject any of his word, God will take their name out of the book of life. Then, they will be thrown into the lake of fire. That is, these who were once saved are now thrown into the lake of fire.
In spite of the overwhelming evidence to warn those who are saved that they can also lose their salvation, there are people who will not accept the word of God, but believe false doctrines.
5. Rebuttal: Once Saved Always Saved
In section one, we have seen the statements made by the Lord Jesus Christ and his apostles that if a person is sinning he/she is not saved but a sinner. If they stopped sinning then they are saved. In section two, we defined what salvation is from the Bible. In section three, we explained the true salvation as well as the false salvation. In section four, we quoted many Bible verses to show that "once saved always saved" is not a true doctrine. Since false doctrines are derived from selected scripture verses by manipulating them, we rebuttal a few such interpretations. We do not rebuttal all their arguments in this study. However, we are giving enough samples to show you how to find the truth by verifying the scripture verses in its contexts. If you have any questions or doubts of any doctrine or scripture verses you can e-mail me. I will send a reply as quick as possible. I assure you that my answers will be based on the word of God.
(A). Rebuttal: Believe on the Son
"John 3:14 ...as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." They quote these verses and preach to mean the following: The only requirement to be saved is to believe Jesus Christ, which they all do. So, they have everlasting life. Those who do not believe will face the wrath of God. This will not bother them since they all will continue to believe him. Their logic is good. By their logic, they got it made. But, there is one problem. What is it to "believe the Son" or to "believe Jesus Christ?"
Believe the Son is to believe what the Son has said. "John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings:.. Matt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." Jesus said the above verses. If they believe what he says, then they will either obey his commandments or they will know that they are rejected from the kingdom of God. This is truly believing Jesus Christ. But they believe something about him that is false and think that they believe him. They believe that Jesus Christ will take them to heaven, no matter what they do. This is cool. But, God did not tell them to believe their own statement about Jesus Christ for their salvation, but to believe what Jesus Christ told them for their salvation. If they believe what he told, then they will do what he wants them to do for their salvation. Nobody can cheat God.
(B). Rebuttal: Saved without Works, so Kept without Works
They say: the Bible makes it clear that our works has nothing whatsoever to do with our salvation. We didn't receive it by our works. So, we don't keep it by our works. Then they quote the following scripture verses to prove their point. "Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,... Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."
These verses are mini Bible to many preachers and believers. They emphasize three points for salvation. (i) "according to his mercy he saved us, and by grace are ye saved." (ii) We are saved "not by works of righteousness which we have done, it is not of yourselves and not of works, lest any man should boast." (iii) We are "saved through faith; it is the gift of God:" Let us review these points in the light of the scriptures without manipulating the verses.
(i). According to his mercy he saved us, and by grace are ye saved
This statement is true. However, false teachers twist the meaning of these three words, (a) saved, (b) grace and (c) mercy and give an entirely different meaning and deceive the believers. So it is important to study the meaning of these words.
(a). Saved: Persons who are sinning are sinners, no matter what they claim. Refer section 1, "Doctrine of Jesus Christ." It explains who sinners are. This will help us not to consider a sinner as a saved person. Refer section 2, "What is Salvation." It explains the true meaning of the word "saved." Those who are converted from the past filthy unjust life to the holy righteous life are saved. Nobody will be saved by the word of their mouth. It should be proven by their living. If their mouth confession is not the reality of their life, then they are liars but are not saved persons. Nobody can trick or deceive God.
(b). Grace: Most Christians think that grace is a free ticket to heaven, given to sinning Christians, since they believe the story of Jesus. This is not true. Grace is a gift from God, given only to true believers, who obey God with love, sincerity and humbleness. "Eph 6:24 Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. 1Peter 5:5 ... be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble." Grace is a spiritual gift package that contains three things. They are (1) doctrine of Jesus Christ, (2) power of the Holy Spirit, and (3) the abiding of God. They are given as grace upon grace as believers needed them. Grace will strengthen true believer to overcome the world, flesh and Satan. Believers don't have to do the ceremonial work of circumcision or any such church ordinance or ceremony, but they will have to use the grace of God to overcome sin for their salvation.
(c). Mercy: The love and compassion of God, which is God's mercy, forgives the past sins of a person who overcomes sin. Forgiveness is offered by the blood of the Lamb of God. "Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;" False preachers say that the blood of Jesus forgives the past, present and future sins. This is a lie of the devil. The forgiveness of God, which is provided by the blood of Jesus, is for the past sins only. If they take the blood of Jesus for granted and try to use it for the present and future sins, then severe damnation will be upon them. Reference is Heb 10: 26-31.
We are in the fast food culture. Preachers use this principle to promote their business. They don't realize that salvation is God's business. They offer ready made forgiveness, instant salvation, quick access to the throne, etc. Nobody can deceive God. God forgives only those who have repented truthfully. The broken hearted sinner will have a contrite spirit. He will accept the grace of God that converts a sinner to a just holy person. God forgives his past sins after the person is justified, but not before. "Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;" Justified is to convert a person from being unjust into being just and to testify that person is righteous. Just person is a righteous person. If a sinner starts to walk in the light as God is in the light, then only the blood of Jesus Christ will apply to him and he will be forgiven from the past sins. If a person keeps on sinning, it is not the principle of God to keep on forgiving the past sins. God says that Jesus died once and he is not dying daily. "1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." Forgiveness is free to a converted sinner but not to a sinning Christian.
(ii). We are saved without our works of righteousness
If you are doing righteousness, you are already saved, (Refer Section 2: What is salvation?). Jesus did not come to save the saved. Those who live in unrighteousness need salvation. God has mercy for the unrighteous people and saves them from unrighteousness. It is a process. After the process, if they don't do the works of righteousness, then their salvation is false. They are not saved, because saved people walk in the path of righteousness. Let us study how God changes an unrighteous person into a righteous person. Let me quote the verse. "Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, (a) by the washing of regeneration, and (b) renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being (c) justified by his grace, (d) we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Eph 2:10 For (e) we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that (e) we should walk in them." Please follow the five (a-e) steps from the above verses.
(a) By the washing of regeneration: Jesus Christ washes away the carnal body that are dead in sins and regenerate them as spiritual body for the new creature, which will not sin. This person will be dead to sin and will live in Christ.
(b) Renewing of the Holy Ghost: The Holy Ghost makes the person totally new. "2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
(c) Justified by his grace: Justified means, converted from being an unjust person into a just person. It is not calling an unjust person as righteous person, which will be a lie. The devil will lie, but God will not. The Lord Jesus Christ, by steps 'a' and 'b', has converted an unjust person to a righteous person.
(d) We should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life: Eternal life is the reward for the works of righteousness. God will keep those who live a holy life to be with him and to rule for him. (Please refer Section 3: "Grace and Reward")
(e) We are his workmanship that we should walk in righteousness: Let us look into one more scripture, which they often quote. "Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." False preachers are very happy to preach verses 8 and 9. But they pretend as verse 10 does not exist. Verses 8 and 9 say that we did not do any works and we were bankrupt on righteousness. Verse 8 says that God gave grace and verse 10 says that God did a work on us. In response to the work of God, the person will do the works of righteousness and walk in the life of holiness. This person is saved. If this change did not happen in the person then, God has not done his work, has not given his grace and has not saved the person, no matter what the person professes. Yes, the saved persons may have not done any works before, but they are doing the works of righteousness after salvation. If God did the work of conversion, the proof is the holy and righteous life of the person.
(iii) We are Saved through Faith
False preachers also admit that we must have faith in order to be to be saved. But, they have their own versions of faith. Among the many versions, they use the following statement for this context. They say Jesus Christ has finished the work of our salvation on the cross, since he proclaimed, "it is finished." So, faith is to make a statement: "they are saved by the finished work of Jesus Christ and by his work alone." They say this and think they are saved through faith.
Then what is true Faith? "Heb 11:1 ... faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Here, two examples are given for faith, (1) the substance of things hoped for. (2) the evidence of things not seen.
(1) Substance of the Hope: The hope of a believer is that they will see him on the day of his coming. "Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;" The substance of that hope is that they will purify themselves as he was pure. "1 John 3:2 ... but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." They will purify themselves and be pure. Faith is not making just a statement, but faith is purifying themselves as Jesus Christ is pure for the hope of eternal life.
(2) Evidence of things not seen: (1) and (2) are the same, since they are synonyms for faith. The evidence that all can see is the pure life of the believer, since he/she "purifieth himself, even as he is pure." Things not seen are in eternity, "it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him."
Through faith we will be saved. The vision of the coming Lord of lords and king of kings, who is the Glorified Lord Jesus Christ, will purify the life of a believer. This is the true faith. Mere statements without conversion are not faith, but lies. Those who do not have this vision of the Glorious Lord cannot have this faith. Only through this faith believers are saved.
C. Rebuttal: It is a Free Gift; Don't have to Work to Keep it
They say that salvation is a free gift from God. If we had to work to keep it, then it would not be a free gift. So we don't have to do anything to keep it. So, they think that if we are once saved we are always saved. They have a very good logic. Then they quote the two following verses to support their logic. "Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." But, this is a deceptive way of quoting the scripture to prove what they want to prove. The verses should be presented to bring the truth of God to light. Let us look at the verses in their context.
(i) The gift of God is eternal life (verse 23)
The gift of God, the eternal life, is not given to a person who is keep on sinning. But it was given to a person, who was a sinner but obeyed God and was made free from committing sin. This person is made righteous and holy and now he is ashamed of the sins that he had committed. As this person continues as such, at the end Jesus Christ gives him/her the gift of eternal life. "Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 ... now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." It all summarizes in the last verse saying, sinning people will get eternal death, others receive the gift of God, the eternal life. Verse 23 is not an island by itself, but the summary of verses 16 to 22.
We all started as servants of sin. That means we were all sinners. Verse 17 says "but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you", that is, (1) they obeyed the commandments of Jesus Christ. Verse 18 says "made free from sin", that is, (2) they do not sin any more. They "became the servants of righteousness", that is, (3) now they are righteous and serve God. Verse 19 says, they became "servants to righteousness unto holiness", that is, (4) they are living a holy life. Verse 21 says that "those things whereof ye are now ashamed", that is, (5) they are ashamed of the past life of sin, which could have taken them to eternal death. Verse 22 says, (6) they have "being made free from sin, and become servants to God", (7) they have "your fruit unto holiness" produced evidence of holiness in their life, and "the end everlasting life." These things are the cause of eternal life. The summary of the verses 17 to 22 is in verse 23. It says, (A) whoever is sinning will face eternal death and (B) the gift of God is eternal life. That is, (B) the eternal life given to the person by the above seven steps that is explained from verse 17 to 22. However, the sinning person will face eternal damnation. The saint, who was once a sinner and is not sinning anymore, will receive eternal life as free gift from God. But false preachers say; a sinning person gets this free gift, which is the twist of the truth.
(ii) The free gift came upon all men
Let us see verse 18 also with its context. "Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." (You may read verses 12- 21) In general the reference is the comparison of Adam to Jesus Christ. Though we do not do exactly what Adam did, the nature of disobedience is on us. This is sin and it will bring eternal death. Contrary to Adam, when Jesus Christ was a man, he received abundant grace from God and lived righteous life, being totally obedient to God. Now, Jesus Christ gives abundant grace to the obedient people to make them righteous and holy.
Verse 17 says, Adam's sin nature brings eternal death to all. But those sinners, who receive the abundant grace from Jesus Christ, will receive a righteous nature as a gift. Because of their righteous nature, they will live a righteous life and this life cause them to receive a reward to reign with Jesus Christ in eternal life. Verse 18 says: Because the nature of Adam is on all of us, condemnation is upon all people. In the same way, because of the righteous nature of Jesus Christ, which is available to everybody, eternal life is also upon all people. That is, the condemnation as well as the eternal life is upon everybody. But the eternal life will be given on one condition. The righteousness of Jesus Christ must change them to justification. It is to make the person as a just person, who is righteous. "Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." This verse is the summary of verses 12-20 that concludes the chapter. It says, if a person is sinning, he will face eternal death. But, grace will convert a person to righteous living. Lord Jesus Christ gives eternal life as a reward for their righteous life. Jesus Christ gives his grace free, the righteous nature free, the eternal life free, and the privilege to reign with him free. All are free to those sinners who follow him in righteousness. The free gifts are not for sinners who still enjoy sinning and call themselves saved.
D. Rebuttal: Born Again as Sons: Cannot negate Our Birth
They convince their congregation that they are children of God by these verses. "1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God,... Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father." We will study these two verses as item (i) and (ii).
After convincing that they are the children of God, they apply their logic that goes like this: Your children will always be your children no matter what happens. You may have troubles and may have broken fellowship, yet they are your children and nothing can change that. Then they say, we all are children of God and nothing negates that. No matter what we do, we will still be the children of God. If this logic is true, we are in big trouble, since we all started as the children of the devil. "1 John 3:10 ... the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do." What will they say now? Will they say, since we started as the children of the devil nothing can negate that? Thank God, this logic is absurd and it is not true.
We all are the children of our parents. They gave birth to us and we came from their body. We did not come from the body of God, but God will glorify and adopts his sons/daughters. "John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God... 2 Cor 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. Romans 8:15 ...ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father." However, let us look at the two verses they quoted and analyze it in their context.
(i) Now are we the sons of God
They quote "Beloved, now are we the sons of God" from 1 John 3:2, and connect the word "beloved" to a sinner, to mean that God calls a sinner as his son. But 1 John 2:29, tells us who are the sons of God. "1 John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him." It says, whoever doing righteousness are sons of God. In other words, those who are living a righteous life are sons of God. "1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not." It says, God call us as his sons because of his love toward us. Then it says that we have become like God to the extent the worldly people who do not know God, do not know us either. "1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." Verse 3 says, even though they are righteous, they are striving to be as pure as even Jesus of Nazareth was pure. People with such a love and dedication are called the sons of God, in the Bible. It is a sad distortion, when anybody call the sinners (sinning Christians), who still love sin and living in it, as sons of God.
(ii) You have received the Spirit of adoption
They quote Romans 8:15 in such a fashion to show that every sinner who believe their version of the story of Jesus Christ has received the Spirit and they can call God as their Father. Let us analyze the verse in its context. "Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." These people have the same Spirit as Jesus and they will be raised from the dead as the same way Jesus was raised from the dead. "Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." These verses say that those who live after the flesh will have eternal death and those who mortify the body of sin, through the Spirit of God, will have eternal life. "Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." Verse 14 says, those who have mortified the body of sin by the leading of the Spirit are sons of God. Verse 15 refers the Spirit that mortified their body of sin as the Spirit of adoption. If their body of sin is not mortified they do not have the Spirit of adoption. "Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father." False teachers refer this verse to the sinning Christians, who live in the flesh, and who have no Spirit.
6. The Old Lie of Satan
God created the man from the dust of the earth. Adam was created as a man. Then, God sent his breath into Adam, which is the spirit of man and made him a living soul, who had the everlasting life. God put him in the Garden of Eden, which is the paradise of God. "Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Rev 2:7 ...the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."
God and Satan preached their messages to Adam and Eve. God told Adam that he will surely die the eternal death if they disobey God, which is to eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Satan told Eve that they already have eternal life, which is the breath of God. They are already in the Garden of Eden, which is the paradise of God. They are already saved. "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED" So, surely they will not die the eternal death even if they disobey God. "Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:" Eve was convinced of Satan rather than of God. Satan succeeded in deceiving Eve. Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. God punished Satan, Adam and Eve. They lost the eternal life.
7. Servants of Satan Preach False Doctrines
Today the workers of Satan are presenting themselves as pastors and evangelists of Jesus Christ. They preach the word of God to mean just the opposite to what God says. "2 Cor 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness;... Matt 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." So, we have be careful so that we may not be deceived by these kinds of evangelists and pastors.
Any true doctrine of the Bible will agree with the wholesome word of God. It will agree with the teachings of Jesus Christ. It will agree with the doctrine of godliness. A doctrine that contradicts any of these three is a false doctrine and it is not of God. "1 Tim 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself." So, if a doctrine does not consent with the wholesome words of God, teachings of Jesus Christ and of godliness, then it is of the devil and we must reject them.
The lie of the old serpent still goes forth through his servants. They preach to Christian sinners that they are already saved. Then they guarantee them that sinners will not lose their salvation, as if they got it. They say: Once Saved, Always Saved. "2 Peter 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage." Preachers promise eternal life to sinning Christians. While they promise heaven, they themselves are going to hell. The truth is, if a person is overcome by sin, he/she is a slave to sin and not saved. Don’t trust the false preachers. They are servants of the devil. Trust God. Believe the truth. God will bless you.
If we love God with reverential fear, we will obey God - We will stop sinning.
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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barrykind
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Charles Stanley’s ‘Once Saved, Always Saved’ Teaching Refuted By Jesus Christ Himself!
Posted on July 6, 2009 by soulrefuge
The topic of the eternal security of the believer is an interesting topic indeed. In this short article I examine the teaching of Charles Stanley (Atlanta, GA) and compare it with the simple teaching of Jesus Christ regarding those who are cast into the furnace of fire.
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils. (1 Timothy 4:1)
This is a very interesting passage of scripture. The Jewish apostle Paul, the same one who was converted on the road to Damascus, and a former murderer of Christians, wrote those words. Paul knew what it was like to be deceived. Paul was a Jewish Pharisee, and if one were to examine his life they would probably find an extremely moral man. One might even call him “holy”, but in the sight of God he was religious but lost! He did not know the true and living God until he met Him that day on the road to Damascus.
Keep that in mind whenever you read the letters of Paul, because you are hearing from a man who was ever so grateful for the mercy shown to him on that day. His desire was that others would come out of deception and come to know Jesus Christ. In the passage above, which is from the first letter that Paul wrote to Timothy, Paul tells us that the Spirit had spoken, that in the latter times [the latter days] there would be some who would depart from the faith, and give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines [teachings] of devils.
The Greek word for DEPART in that passage is the word APHISTEMI and it is defined as follows: To remove, instigate to revolt, to desist, desert, depart, draw [fall] away, refrain, withdraw self.
Now is this talking about people who truly knew the Lord at one time, or is it talking about those who merely professed to be saved, but in reality they were lost.
The passage above is talking about GENUINE believers in Jesus Christ, who get seduced by false teachers, and their doctrines, and depart from the faith.
An unsaved man cannot depart from the faith, because they never had faith to begin with.
Why on earth would the Holy Spirit [of truth] come forth with a warning about the unsaved departing from the faith?
How can the unsaved be seduced away from a place of faith that they were never at to begin with?
Why would the devil come with his doctrines to seduce the unsaved, who he already holds captive at his will? [2 Timothy 2:26]
Taking The Warnings Seriously
It is spiritually dangerous to attempt to make the scriptures say something that they are not saying. An example of what can happen, when you try to make the scriptures fit your own preconceived theology, can be found here:
In the book of Matthew 25:14-30 Jesus spoke about the parable of the talents. He is speaking on the subject of the ”Kingdom of Heaven”. Jesus shows us the fate of the”unprofitable servant” in the following verse from that passage:
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 25:30)
INTERPRETATION: CHARLES STANLEY
Charles Stanley, the well known Pastor and media minister from Atlanta, Georgia, said this concerning that same passage of scripture:
Pastor Charles Stanley
“Where is this place represented by the ‘outer darkness’ in Jesus’ parables? To be in the ‘outer darkness’ is to be in the kingdom of God but outside the circle of men and women whose faithfulness on this earth earned them a special rank or position of authority. The ‘outer darkness’ represents not so much an actual place as it does a sphere of influence and privilege.”
Concerning the “gnashing of teeth” Charles Stanley goes on to say that these people were “extremely frustrated with themselves” and “As some are celebrated for their faithfulness, others will gnash their teeth in frustration…” And ”we do not know how long this time of rejoicing and sorrow will last. Those whose works are burned up will not weep and gnash their teeth for eternity.” [Charles Stanley: Eternal Security, Can You Be Sure? Pages 126-127]
So according to Charles Stanley there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth in the outer darkness of Heaven! I don’t know about you but the place that he is describing sure sounds a lot like Hell to me.
Do you know why?
BECAUSE IT IS HELL!
INTERPRETATION: JESUS CHRIST
If you read the full parable in Matthew 25:14-30 you will see that the Lord Jesus Christ referred to the ‘unprofitable servant’ as “WICKED” in Matthew 25:26
Are the WICKED going to enter the kingdom of Heaven along with the faithful? Not according to Jesus Christ, the creator of all things.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the WICKED from among the just, And shall cast them into the FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:49-50)
Jesus said that the WICKED were going to be cast into the “furnace of fire” and that is where there is going to be ‘wailing and gnashing of teeth.’
The Greek word for WICKED in Matthew 25:26 is the word PONEROS and it is the very same Greek word used in Matthew 13:49 describing those people whom Jesus said would be cast into the ”furnace of fire”.
The Greek word for WEEPING in Matthew 25:30 is the word KLAUTHMOS and it is the very same Greek word used for WAILING in Matthew 13:50 describing those people who Jesus said would be cast into the ”furnace of fire”.
The Greek word for GNASHING in Matthew 25:30 is the word BRUGMOS and it is the very same Greek word that is used in Matthew 13:50 describing those whom Jesus said would be cast into the ”furnace of fire”.
Are there people weeping and gnashing their teeth in Heaven?
When a Christian shares the Gospel of Jesus Christ with the unsaved, should they tell them that they have a choice between Heaven or Hell, as to where they can wail and gnash their teeth?
The answer to the questions above are obviously an emphatic NO!
In fact the whole idea of wailing and gnashing of teeth in Heaven is ludicrous.
The apostle Paul was truly speaking in the Spirit, all those years ago, when he told us that some “shall depart from the faith”, but the question is this: Is anybody listening??
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
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Barry, salvation is NOT a cloak which one can put on or take off and lay aside at will.
When one is born again, the LORD GOD move-in and indwells us, permeating being rooted firmly in every fiber of our being. The True Believer can no more deny Christ then they can deny the beating of their own heart.
It is the LORD GOD Who gives us the very gift of faith, and rooted in the ROCK of our salvation the true Believer will not be moved.
The Five Wise had oil in their lamps, the true illumination from God's Holy Spirit, from within their hearts and lives.
The Five Foolish had lamps and the exterior trappings of religion, were working at the rituals, etc., BUT did NOT have the Holy Spirit of the LORD GOD within their hearts and lives.
No matter how much they did for religion and in the name of Christ, He did not know them.
One can run around all day keeping commandments and practicing religion till the cows come home, BUT if they have not truly placed their faith and trust in Christ, if they are not born again, with the indwelling Holy Spirit of God, then they are of the foolish.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
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Amen Sis!!!!!
From John Gill's Commentary:
quote:
Matthew 25:12
But he answered and said
The Lord and bridegroom from within, thought fit to give them an answer, but an unexpected and awful one to them:
verily I say unto you, I know you not;
which must be understood in consistence with the omniscience of Christ: he knew their persons, conduct, and state; he knew they were foolish virgins, graceless professors, who had made no account of him and his righteousness; but had trusted to, and depended upon, their external profession of religion: they were none of the people whom he foreknew, or knew as his own, and loved with an everlasting love; he never knew them as his father's choice in him, or as this father's gift to him; he never knew them in the everlasting covenant, or as his sheep, for whom he died; he never knew them to believe in him, or love him; nor ever exalt his person, blood and sacrifice, at his table, nor do any good work with a single eye to his glory; he never approved of them, liked their persons, or their conduct; or ever owned them as the true companions, either of his bride, or of himself: which answer implies, that as the door was shut, so it should remain; there was no admittance for them, nor any to be hoped for; and it is all one as if he had said, begone, and depart hence. The Persic version adds such a clause, "begone from my door".
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Carol Swenson
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This is good...
"This chat developed out of a conversation with a pastor regarding basic Christian theology. We ended up talking about whether or not you can lose your salvation. Let's pick it up well into the talk."
CARM
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
Carol states:
quote:
This is not correct. In the Greek text, the five foolish virgins did NOT have oil, never had oil.
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Prove that
Carol'
ok
There is no mention of "extra" oil. The wise had oil, the foolish did not.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
Sister the scripture is saying the 10 virgins all had lamps, they all had oil, the 5 wise took "extra" oil in a vessle, the 5 foolish did not take extra oil, no other vessle to carry extra oil and the scripture is plain that the 5 foolish virgins lamps.."WENT OUT" study the greek sister and get a clear meaning..
YOUR CRUTCH that you have been taught that the 5 foolish never had "OIL" [Holy Spirit] meaning they never were saved will not hold up in light of scripture and thus by yours wildbill and caretaker...they all had the Spirit .. ie;"OIL"
thus proving once again OSAS is just not supportedby scripture, so the "prop" of live like a devil and you can go to heaven is washed up and exposed for the LIE that it is; preached by decieved ministers and laymen, as well as "WOLVES" in sheeps clothing...
They had NO OIL according to the Greek. You are trying to say we should carry around extra Holy Spirit in case we run out, you silly man.
quote:
YOUR CRUTCH that you have been taught that the 5 foolish never had "OIL" [Holy Spirit] meaning they never were saved will not hold up in light of scripture and thus by yours wildbill and caretaker...they all had the Spirit .. ie;"OIL"
Completely unproven. You use loaded words like "CRUTCH" thinking to strengthen your influence, but instead you only come across as a manipulator. Show me this "light of scripture" you refer to.
quote:
so the "prop" of live like a devil and you can go to heaven
We have NEVER taught that. You are slandering us and completly ignoring what we have taught. We teach that we are led by the Holy Spirit (and He is not a flask of oil that we carry around).
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (Romans 8:14)
You are teaching a works salvation, and that is wrong. You cannot earn salvation. You cannot add to the cross of Christ. If you could earn eternal life by being obedient and doing good works, then there was no need for Christ to die.
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing! (Galatians 2:21)
Rather, we do good works BECAUSE we are saved, and led by His Holy Spirit.
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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barrykind
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posted
Confessing Jesus or Denying the Lord Jesus Christ is the "saved / not saved" main issue. It is something THAT WE DO, based on our beliefs. People who argue for OSAS will often say,
"There's nothing you can DO to become saved, or it will be works. Therefore, there is nothing you can DO to become unsaved, you can't GAIN or LOSE salvation based on what you do."
Well, the first premise is wrong, because to be saved, one has to DO quite a lot; first be willing to hear the message, second, believe it in faith, third, repent of your sins, and fourth, confess that you believe God rose Jesus from the dead, and fifth, continue in the faith. And the act a person takes that leads to salvation is the opposite act one takes as a result of falling away from the faith. Confession or Denial of Jesus!
The other common thing people who belive OSAS often say in the debate is,
"How much or which sin would actually cause one to be unsaved? If we can lose salvation, where do we draw the line? or How much sin can I get away with?"
Again, it seems they forget the key issue, belief in Jesus and confession of Him.
2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Luke 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Luke 12:9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Exodus 32:33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
Psalm 69:28, Deuteronomy 29:20
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
The ACT of confessing Jesus is not only important to salvation, but also for determining who goes to heaven in the rapture.
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my
word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.
Some scholars have tried to deny that Matthew 10:32 applies to them, saying it's for the Jews, or people of a different dispensation. However, this same theme is found, as quoted above, in the Epistles: Timothy, Romans, Jude. It's found in Revelation. It's found in the Old Testament. It's a theme of the entire Bible!
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The process of falling away, and changing one's beliefs, which eventually can lead a person to deny Jesus, is described in many verses.
Given all of the ways to fall away from the faith, the Bible tells us to examine ourselves, and work out our salvation with fear. Sometimes religious people who may believe OSAS become very offended if you preach to them anything that might question their salvation. They say, "How dare you!". Well, I dare because scripture commands us to question our salvation.
2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.
Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
1 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
Next is a list of the things lead to falling away from the faith and belief in Jesus.
Falling away & being rejected by God, can be the result of (each verse quoted in full below):
for lack of knowledge & rejected knowledge Hosea 4:6
that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not Matt 7:24-27
hearers only, deceiving your own selves James 1:22
beareth not fruit & abide not in me John 15:2,6
not a doer & forgetteth what manner of man he was James 1:22-24
faith without works is dead Jam 2:17-26
he that lacketh & hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins 2 Peter 1:9
unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures 2 Peter 3:16
err from the truth James 5:19-20
lust, and enticed James 1:13-16
the love of money 1 Timothy 6:10
be a friend of the world James 4:4
the pollutions of the world & again entangled therein & turned to his own vomit again 2 Peter 2:20-22
the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word Matt 13:22
have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away Luke 8:13
tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended Matt 13:21
be without chastisement Hebrews 12:6-8
servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death Romans 6:16
being led away with the error of the wicked 2 Peter 3:17
seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils 1 Timothy 4:1
an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Hebrews 3:12-15
sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth Hebrews 10:26
having put away concerning faith & blaspheme 1 Timothy 1:18-20:
counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing Hebrews 10:29
Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Matt 7:
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
James 1:22-24
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] thatbeareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
2 Peter 1:1-10
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2 Peter 3:
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
James 5:
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
James 1:13-16
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
2 Peter 2:
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Matt 13:
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Matt 13:
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Hebrews 12
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
2 Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.
Hebrews 3:12-15
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
1 Timothy 1:18-20:
18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
Hebrews 10:
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
The person who believes OSAS often will look at all the evidence above and conclude that if a person "falls away" he was never really saved to begin with. I'm sorry, the Bible never says, "he who falls away was never really saved to begin with". All the messages and exhortations and warnings about falling away are written to believers.
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The need to CONTINUE & ENDURE
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Acts 14:21,22
21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch,
22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
1 Timothy 4:
15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
Romans 11:
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Colossians 1:
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
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Paul Preached He, Himself, might not be saved!
1 Corinthians 9:24-27
24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Philippians 3
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
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Six words that KILL OSAS. "I go, sir: and went not" vs. "he repented, and went"
There is a story of a man who makes a verbal declaration of obedience, but ends up disobeying.
Matt 21:
28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
Thus, a single one-time declaration of obdeince does not guarantee salvation!
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If a person falls away from his rightousness then he shall die
Ezekiel 18
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25 Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the LORD is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
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Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
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Hebrews 6
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come *1,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
(*1) Does "the world to come" refer to the post millennium rebellion?
Rev 20:
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Matthew 12
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
1 Kings 8:39 Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men;)
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
1 John 1
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
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Heb 3:14 - "We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the END the confidence we had at first.
John 12:36 - "Put your trust in the light while you have it, so that you may BECOME sons of light."
1 CO 9:24 - "Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? RUN in such a way as to get the prize."
2 Titus 4:7 - "I have fought the good fight, I have FINISHED THE RACE, I have kept the faith."
Heb 12:1 - "Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and LET US RUN with perseverance the race marked out for us."
Phil 3:14 - "I PRESS ON toward the goal to win the prize"
REV 2:26 - "To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations
REV 3:21 - "To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne".
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Jeremiah 8:20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.
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Scriptures used to try and support OSAS & Eternal Security, yet do not refute, in any way the truths presented above.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Proverbs 14:14 The backslider in heart shall be filled with his own ways: and a good man shall be satisfied from himself.
1 John 3:
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2 Timothy 2:13 "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."
1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you FOREVER.
John 17:2 "As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him."
Ephesians 2:
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Jude 24 "Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy"
2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Romans 8
28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 3
3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.
4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heb 13:
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the EVERLASTING COVENANT,
21 MAKE you perfect in every good work to do his will, WORKING in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, THROUGH Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.Let's remember to humble ourselves knowing it is only God's Grace who saves man.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if [it be] yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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barrykind
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Thanks for removing your post Wildb
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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barrykind
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wildbill did you post that in the wrong thread?
does not make since here???
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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barrykind
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Sister the scripture is saying the 10 virgins all had lamps, they all had oil, the 5 wise took "extra" oil in a vessle, the 5 foolish did not take extra oil, no other vessle to carry extra oil and the scripture is plain that the 5 foolish virgins lamps.."WENT OUT" study the greek sister and get a clear meaning..
YOUR CRUTCH that you have been taught that the 5 foolish never had "OIL" [Holy Spirit] meaning they never were saved will not hold up in light of scripture and thus by yours wildbill and caretaker...they all had the Spirit .. ie;"OIL"
thus proving once again OSAS is just not supportedby scripture, so the "prop" of live like a devil and you can go to heaven is washed up and exposed for the LIE that it is; preached by decieved ministers and laymen, as well as "WOLVES" in sheeps clothing...
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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Carol Swenson
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The lamps went out right after they were lit.
Matthew 25:6 - 8 (NASB)
6“But at midnight there was a shout, ‘Behold, the bridegroom! Come out [they were inside] to meet him.’ 7“Then all those virgins rose and trimmed [lighted] their lamps. 8“The foolish said to the prudent, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’
The Greek is "they adorn the torches".
They took NO OIL. See for yourself:
YLT:
3they who were foolish having taken their lamps, did not take with themselves oil;
NRSV:
3When the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them;
NKJV:
3Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them,
KJV:
3They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
ISVNT:
3For when the foolish ones took their lamps, they didn’t take any oil with them.
ESV:
3For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them,
DRB:
3But the five foolish, having taken their lamps, did not take oil with them.
DNT:
3They that£ were foolish took their torches and did not take oil with them;
ASV:
3For the foolish, when they took their lamps, took no oil with them:
RSV:
3For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them;
NASB:
3“For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them,
HCSB:
3When the foolish took their lamps, they didn’t take oil with them.
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barrykind
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Its what youve been taught Sister, but tis not so.
For if they could say NO "OIL" then they were never saved..but if "OIL" represents Holy Spirit and most time does just like Sister Betty and Brother Drew states...to run out of oil would show that they were saved and did not finish to the end..
therefore once again proving the most evil doctrine of OSAS an abomination to true Doctrine...
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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barrykind
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Carol look at verse 8
8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
for our lamps are gone out.
without oil their lamps could not have "GONE" out"
This is the greek Sister:
Strong's G4570 - sbennymi σβέννυμι
Transliteration
sbennymi
Pronunciation
sbe'n-nü-mē (Key)
Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
A prolonged form of an apparently primary verb
TDNT Reference
7:165,1009
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage 1) to extinguish, quench
a) of fire or things on fire
1) to be quenched, to go out
b) metaph. to quench, to suppress, stifle
1) of divine influence
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 8 AV — quench 7, go out 1
They had oil in thier lamps and their "oil" ran out......
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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barrykind
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Carol states:
quote:
This is not correct. In the Greek text, the five foolish virgins did NOT have oil, never had oil.
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Prove that
Carol'
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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Carol Swenson
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This is not correct. In the Greek text, the five foolish virgins did NOT have oil, never had oil.
If you look at their wedding customs you will see that they were waiting in the bride's house for the groom to come get his bride and escort her back to his father's house. Their lamps were not lit while they were waiting because they were inside the bride's house.
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barrykind
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Brother Drew States:
quote:
There are Five Virgins who have oil in their lamps, (the oil being a symbol of God's Holy Spirit), and Five who do not, and the Lord says "I know you not", and yet they are all waiting for the return of the bridegroom.
Sister Betty states:
1st
quote:
The oil in the lamps represents the Holy Spirit. We cannot fill our own lamps. The only way we can get oil is to get saved. There are people who attend Church who are not saved. They appear as Christians but because they are not saved, they have no oil. Salvation is a gift from God. The Bible makes it clear that we cannot earn salvation. We can earn crowns that will be presented to us in Heaven but we can not do anything to earn salvation.
betty
Note She says
quote:
The oil in the lamps represents the Holy Spirit. We cannot fill our own lamps. The only way we can get oil is to get saved.
All ten virgins had a lamp, had oil, but the wise took "extra" oil in thier "vessle"
Sothey all were virgins, had oil, and lamps; this was not in question. What was in question was that the "Foolish" virgins did not have Enough oil when the "midnight" cry came in!
Very grave warning here by Yahushua HaMashiach!!
Be ready, do not be "drunk" with wine werein is EXCESS, but be filled with the Holy Spirit.."FILLED" FILLED"; have plenty of OIl
We need a new thread study on the Ten virgins; and also i pray my Brother becausehelives will start a thread on "The bride"...he has a wonderful insight from YHWH on the Picture of the bride..
This matter of the oil and extra provision beyond ourselves is a hugely important issue. The question of the extra oil is still wondered about and discussed in devotional circles. Many Christians admit that this haunting parable of the ten virgins most assuredly involves them. Deep down in their hearts they also know that God is in some way giving them a warning. It is a call to an important spiritual preparation in God. Is God calling His people to prepare themselves for a coming journey through the darkness? Biblical Christians know that there certainly is a great darkness up ahead. This will come in the end-time "final witness" at the end of this age. So in this parable is our God giving us a 'heads up"?
We are told "A word to the wise is sufficient".
There is still time for us to respond and to act on this information.
So shall we take the message to heart?
Shall we make it a priority in our busy world to draw aside and to make this spiritual preparation?
If this parable is a prophecy, (and it probably is), then the answer is all too apparent.
Some of us will take the warning to heart.
We shall seek the face of God and make the needful preparation.
And some of us will not.
RUNNING LOW ON OIL.
AND THE TROUBLING ISSUE OF "BURNOUT".
Art by Spencer Williams.
Click on the image to go to his gallery.
We also see that all of the virgins were in the same predicament.
As the midnight hour approached they had all come to a moment of crisis.
Both the wise and the foolish were running low on oil.
All of them were approaching "burnout".
The fact that the virgins came to a time when their lamps were sputtering and burning low is not the main issue at all. This happened to all ten of the virgins, including the five wise virgins. Burnout happens to all of us from time to time as we come to low points and times of crisis in our lives. There is nothing wrong with this at all. It is a common human experience. We cannot pump up our ego or our "self esteem" and expect to avoid this. But our response to the high calling in God amid the challenges of life is what seems to be the issue.
So let us ask ourselves this question. Do we fear God? Do we seek His face when our world enters into a crisis? Have we come to know God more intimately in our dark passages through life? Have we taken time to address the spiritual issues as we walk with God through this life?
It is our spiritual attentiveness that appears to be the critical issue in this parable. We see it alluded to in Proverbs chapter 1. Here we see the woman of wisdom crying out in the streets. But few are listening. The foolish are going their own way no matter what. Only the wise stop to listen and respond to the God who is calling them.
So what was the difference then? Those who were wise had looked around them and seen that the darkness was coming. They then made important preparations for the coming night. They were not trusting and depending on the oil that was in the lamps of their own personal spirit. They knew that their own lamp would fail them somewhere down the line. So they had made their priority to obtain a spiritual supply of oil outside of themselves. They had that extra jar of oil. It was the 'midnight oil'. With that extra supply of oil the the wise virgins were prepared. They were ready for the great drama that would unfold at the midnight hour. When the hour of burnout came they were not left destitute in the darkness. They were prepared to recharge their lamps with a fresh supply of oil. The wise virgins then arose from their beds of ease and were ready to go out.
For the foolish virgins it was a different story. They had not prepared for the midnight hour. They were in a state of high anxiety and dismayed because their lamps were fading and approaching burnout. They had heard the midnight cry but they were unable to go on. But the lamps of the wise virgins had been recharged and were burning brightly. They were all set. They were ready to go out to meet the Bridegroom.
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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barrykind
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posted
The Eight Pillars
of
Eternal Security
or
The Toppling of an Idol
(BY MR. JEFF PATON)
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An Idol 1: A representation or symbol of an object of worship: A false god... 4: An object of extreme devotion. 5: A false conception.
( Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, Merriam-Webster 1991)
Oh, great is the Diana of the Calvinists! If one genuine Christian can fall, slip away, apostatize, or be severed from Christ, not only will eternal security, the head of their idol, come toppling down, but so will the rest of her defiled body! Is it any wonder that, despite the fact that the whole of Scripture is decisively against them, they must at all costs save their precious license for sin? We could list many cases of certain individuals who have been made examples of in the apostolic record. We could list several clear and unambiguous passages that either speak directly about the possibility and danger of apostasy and falling away or give inference to this possibility through logical conclusion. Nevertheless, this will not do, for the high priests of this unholy deception have already cast a spell of Scriptural blindness with their twisting of the Word of God that is so pleasing to the tickled ears of their hearers. Their minds, eyes, and hearts have been dulled and darkened so that they cannot comprehend these truths.
The blatant and open sinning of those who have dishonored Christ by their profession of Christianity proves their salvation is highly questionable. When asked how they can claim to be saved while they live in sin, their explanation is always about their faith in the doctrine of eternal security . . . and never about their faith in Christ! Christ brings conviction while eternal security brings comfort. Between the two, they choose the idol.
Proving that eternal security is without Biblical support is the only way to knock out this false prop from under the eternal security proponent. This is not a difficult task to do if we examine their "proofs" anew and allow the Bible to speak for itself. We will not dodge the issues and "explain away" the texts that seem difficult as the eternal security folks do, but each of their pillars will be approached within its context and the Word of God as a whole.
Pillar One
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John 10:27-29.
With a small amount of scholarship, this verse can be cleared up. In the Greek text, the hearing and following are in the present tense. What does this mean? It means that only those who are hearing and following Christ right now are his sheep. Those that are living in a state of continual sin are not his sheep because they are neither hearing nor following Jesus. Who are secure? The sheep. Who cannot be snatched (taken away by force)? The sheep. Who is Jesus giving (present tense) eternal life? Those who are sheep. Who are the sheep? Who shall never perish? Who is Christ giving eternal life? Only those who are hearing and following right now! Whom do Jesus and the Father protect in their hands? Not the one who heard and followed, but only those who are actively believing now with an obedient faith. Is this not works? No! It is genuine faith! This is true biblical security.
The term "snatch" means to take by force. This promise guarantees that the devil cannot remove the believer (present tense) from the hand of God. This safety is only from forces outside the believer and God Himself. A backslider removes himself from the promises of safety and security. He is not removed against his own will.
Now, looking at this passage in its plain and obvious meaning, it renders no credence to the theory of unconditional eternal security. The chief pillar has fallen! The remaining seven groan under the weight to save this failed doctrine.
Pillar Two
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:35-39
First, these verses do not say, "Who shall separate us from the salvation of God?" Secondly, nowhere in these verses is Paul saying that sin cannot separate the one who rebels against the true and holy God.
To read the doctrine of eternal security into these verses is not warranted, since the conditionality of God's love is asserted throughout the Scriptures as a whole. God has an unconditional love for the lost as we can see in John 3:16. Other passages, such as the account in Mark 10:21,22 of the rich young ruler, who Jesus "beholding him loved him," further show the unconditional love of God, yet the ruler went away lost and grieved.
Why does Jude 21 warn us to "keep yourselves in the love of God" if the possibility of separation from God's love is impossible? In John 14:21 the conditionality of God's love is expressed this way, "He that hath my commandments, and keeps them, is he that loveth me; and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and manifest myself to him." Notice the clear and unambiguous words of Jesus, "He that hath my commandments and keeps them . . . is loved of my Father, and I will love him." Only bias and prejudice could impel one to deny the obvious conclusion that sin and rebellion is not the keeping of Christ's commandments, and that rebellious sinners are not in the love of God. In John 15:10 Jesus makes the same point again by inference, "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."
Clearly, there is a general love of God that goes out to all mankind regardless of their lost condition, and a specific and intimate love that God has only for those that are in fellowship with him through the atoning work of Jesus Christ. It is plain to see that this passage in Romans is this latter type of love.
Who shall separate us? Paul is addressing two elements here, one being "us." It is only those who are "in Christ" that are concerned with here, and not humanity overall. Notice that the designation "who" is not the believer himself, but that influence or circumstance that is outside the believer. The entire listing of Paul is consistent with this context! Death, life, angels, principalities, powers, et cetera, are all elements that do not include the moral choice of the individual who is now a believer. God's love is present in those who are in Christ, regardless if their circumstances in this life seem to give the impression that his love and protection is being withheld from them.
"Doesn't this passage say that 'any other creature cannot separate us from the love of God?' We are creatures and therefore we cannot separate ourselves!" Oh, what pathetic lengths will one go to save this precious Diana! The context demands that these "other creatures" are not us! Common usage of words denies this strange manner of interpretation. It makes no sense to say "who shall separate us . . . death, life . . . height, depth, nor we disobedient believers ourselves shall be able to separate us."
To get eternal security from these Scriptures, one has to assume that this is the meaning of the texts before reading them. By using this approach, they start it with theory, and they end it with theory, and that all they have! THEORY, and not TRUTH!
Pillar Three
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. Philippians 1:6
Notice that the eternal security advocate cannot produce even one unambiguous and clear passage for the rotten doctrine! If this pivotal doctrine runs throughout the Scriptures, as is claimed, why aren't there passages that say, "No matter what sin a saved person commits, he will still go to heaven," "Believers cannot utterly fall away from the faith," and "Once a Son, always a Son." As much as they preach this from the popular pulpit, one would think that "eternal security" was a term that was found in the Bible! Yet the truth is that it will only be found in their theology books.
How they derive unconditional eternal security from Philippians 1:6 is a mystery. Paul had his confidence that God would continue his justifying and sanctifying work in them all the way to the end. Yet what was Paul's confidence in? Was it that he believed they were eternally secure and he wanted them to know it? This is what the eternal security proponents want us to believe.
Paul was confident of their perseverence only because they had "fellowship in the gospel from... THE FIRST DAY UNTIL NOW." Paul tells what his confidence is based on, and that is what we should believe. If there was a group of believers who showed nothing but good fruit from the day of their conversion until now, then there would be no other choice but to have confidence in the grace of God for them.
Please take note that the Scriptures never state this kind of confidence for those who are lukewarm or "sinning saints." This promise is only for genuine, obedient believers! Paul himself thought that was "meet" or "just" for him to think this way about them (verse 7). They had given Paul absolutely no reason to doubt that they were genuine Christians! Would he say the same thing of you?
Pillar Four
Who are kept by the power of God through faith . . . I Peter 1:5
Notice the condition to this security. It is through faith. Sin is not faith. It is unbelief, or anti-faith. As long as believers are constantly abiding in the faith, the power of God keeps them. Since they have their faith in Jesus Christ, they have the security that is promised.
If eternal security were true, why is it never stated in the Bible that, "It is impossible for a believer to lose his salvation?" It is because the doctrine of eternal security is nothing but a lie!
Pillar Five
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:29
The individual's salvation is not the intent of the context here. It is the love of God for the nation of Israel. If one wishes to argue that "salvation is a gift, and therefore cannot be taken back by God" one would be inclined to agree with that. God does not take salvation away from us. We throw it away! It is our act of unbelief that brings separation and forces us to be broken off from the life of God. Look! In the preceding verses God tells us that many in Israel were "broken off" because of unbelief! We are also warned that we too can also be broken off unless we continue to "stand by faith (Romans 11:20-21)."
Why violate the context of this verse to "prove" eternal security, when we can be faithful to the Word of God and have the truth?
Pillar Six
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will in no wise cast out. John 6:37
Again, notice that nothing is said about this fictional eternal security.
Who are given to Christ? Those who come by faith. Those that receive the gracious offer of the Father are guaranteed acceptance by Christ. What is promised is nothing more than that anyone who casts his faith upon the Christ will not be turned away! Believers do not have to fear that the availability of salvation is limited in any way.
Pillar Seven
And this is the Father's will who hath sent me, that all of which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again on the last day. John 6:39
Many confuse God's will with God's decree. It is also God's will that none should perish, and that all would come to repentance (2Peter 3:9). It is the Father's will (desire) that Jesus should not "lose" any, but this is an ideal, and not a proof of the inability of falling away. For in John 17:12 Jesus said, "those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost except the son of perdition," direct proof that in spite of the desire of God that "none shall be lost," there was at least one of the chosen twelve that was! The will of God never violates the free will he has given us to exercise!
Pillar Eight
The final pillar remaining is starting to crumble into dust, since without the support of any verses positing this fallacious teaching, Ephesians 1:13-14 will render no support on its own.
In whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
The only way that this can be perceived as a proof for eternal security is to have the support of some verse where the doctrine has already been proven. Standing alone as it does, it renders nothing that teachers of carnal security can use. The verse does not say whether believers can break this seal or not, but the whole of Scripture proves that they can. Observe that the Holy Spirit is only a down payment on our inheritance and that we do not possess the fullness of this gift until the Lord returns. The fullness of this promise is only to those who endure to the end. The Scriptures tell us to "Be faithful until death and I will give you a crown of life (Rev. 3:5,21)." The Lord preserves the faithful (Psalms 31:23), not the unfaithful. This is the true perseverence of the Saints!
Mourn, for your Idol has Fallen!
"Now they sin more, and have made them molten images of silver, and idols according to their own understanding." Hosea 13:2 "What profiteth the graven image that its maker hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols? Woe to him who saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach!" Hab. 2:18-19 "He heweth down cedars for himself . . . He burneth part of it in the fire . . . and the residue of it he maketh a god, even his graven image: he falleth down to it and worshipeth it, and prayeth to it, and saith, deliver me; for thou art my god." Isaiah 44:14-17
Nothing is more senseless that to create a god with one's own hands, only to bow down to worship it as mighty and powerful! Christians' assurance can only be based on a vital, living and trusting faith in the one true God, Jesus Christ. If there is a break in this relationship, there cannot be any hope of assurance. To claim assurance while one does not have a relationship with God is equal to worshiping something other than God, whether it be a doctrine or a piece of wood. Some will claim that fellowship with God can be severed but not the relationship to God. This statement is the same as calling God a liar! For it is written "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin (I John 1:7)." Notice that cleansing for sin is conditioned upon fellowship with God, and that fellowship is conditioned upon walking in the light. If the blood of Christ is not cleansing us from all sin, it is impossible to be in a relationship with God! Fellowship and relationship are inseparable from the saving work of Christ. Being "out of fellowship with God" is the same as being out of the grace and relationship with God.
My friend, cast away the false god of assurance that has been fashioned with the hands of men! Do not trust in lofty and eloquent pleas to trust in a false eternal security, but put all of your trust in Him who keeps us through a genuine, trusting, and abiding faith, that we may one day hear those wonderful words "well done, good and faithful servant."
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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WildB
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Careful my friend to which ditch you direct.
I think that your Pentecostal wound is deeper than you think.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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barrykind
Advanced Member
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THE POSSIBILITY OF TOTAL APOSTASY
BY
SAMUEL WAKEFIELD
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We have examined, the leading features of the remedial system, so far as it applies to man in his present state of being, beginning with the doctrine of atonement, and concluding with that of entire sanctification. But that Christians may understand the danger to which they are exposed, as well as the nature and. extent of that "great salvation" which is provided for them in Christ Jesus, we will now inquire whether it is possible for true believers to fall from their state of grace and perish everlastingly.
This has long been a question of debate between Calvinistic and Arminian divines; the former taking the negative, and the latter the affirmative. That we may examine the subject with all possible fairness, let us ascertain, 1. How far these contending parties agree. 2. The ground on which the Calvinistic theory is based; and, 3. The arguments by which the possibility of total, apostasy is supported.
I. HOW FAR THESE CONTENDING PARTIES AGREE.
All genuine Arminians agree with Calvinists in asserting,
1. That believers are preserved in the way of life and salvation by Divine power. Thus St. Peter asserts, that they "are kep by the power of God through faith unto salvation." I Peter 1:5. The same doctrine taught, in the doxology with which Jude closes his Epistle. "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy."
2. That no adverse agency or influence shall ever be able to separate true believers from the love of God. Of such our Lord says, "They shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." John 10:28. "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors, through him that loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 8:35--39.
3. That God has promised persevering grace to all faithful believers. He will present us "holy, and unblamable, and unreprovable in his sight," if we "continue in the faith pounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the Gospel." Col. 1:2, 23. Again, St. Peter declares, that if we give all diligence to add to our "faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, and charity," we "shall never fall." II Pet. 1:5-7, 10.
4. That true believer may fall into gross and scandalous sins. Thus Lot fell into drunkenness and incest; David, into adultery and murder; Solomon, into gross idolatry; and Peter, into a denial of his Lord, with oaths and imprecations. It is more&ver agreed on all hands, that those who commit such horrid sins are guilty in the sight of God, and unfit for the kingdom of heaven, until they are again renewed through repentance and faith. But the Calvinistic theory is, that a truly regenerate man "can neither totally nor finally fall away from a state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved." Let us then examine,
II. THE GROUND ON WHICH THIS THEORY IS BASED, or the arguments by which it is supported.
1. The doctrine is argued from the perfections of God. It is said that "God, as a being possessed of infinite love, faithfulness, wisdom, and power, can hardly be supposed to suffer any of his people finally to fall into perdition. This would be a reflection on his attributes, and argue him to be worse than a common father. His love to his people is unchangeable, and therefore, they cannot be the objects of it at one time and not at another. His faithfulness to them and to his promise is not founded upon their merit, but on his own will and goodness. This, therefore, cannot be violated. His wisdom foresees every obstacle in the way, and is capable of removing it, and of directing them in the right path. It would be a reflection on his wisdom, after choosing a right end, not to choose right means in accomplishing the same. His power is insuperable, and is absolutely and perpetually displayed in their preservation and protection.
In reply to this argument it is only necessary to remark that there is nothing in it that cannot, with equal force, be employed, against certain fact. the existence of which our opponents themselves admit. We refer to the fall of angels and of our first Parents. If such perfectly holy beings have fallen, and some of them to rise no more, how can we argue the impossibility of total apostasy from the perfections of God? Are not these perfections the same now that they were before the fall of man and angels? The argument, therefore, proves too much, as it proves the impossibility of what has taken place.
But is it indeed true, as this favorite argument assumes, that Gods creatures cannot be the objects of his love at one time and not at another? If it is, then it will follow either that God never loved "the angels which kept not their first estate," though they were at first, his holy and happy creatures, or that he loves them still, though now "reserved in everlasting chains;" both of which are too absurd to be believed. It will follow, moreover, on the same principle, that God must remain perfectly the same to those who are now his regenerate children as he was to them in their unregenerate and rebellious state. But to suppose this is a reflection on the character of God and a contradiction of his word. The key to the whole question is, that God ever loves what is morally good; and hates all moral evil. Hence, while creatures change, the love of God may be extended to them or withheld from them, according to their moral character, and yet God remain unchangeable, loving holiness and hating iniquity. But the unfrustrable perseverance of the saints is also argued,
2. From certain doctrine, peculiar to the Calvinistic scheme. These are, 1. That some men and ange1s are unconditionall predestinated to everlasting life; 2. That the covenant which God makes with his people is unconditional; 3. That all for whom Christ died shall infallibly be saved; 4. That the intercession of Christ secures the salvation of all for whom it is made; and, 5. That the Holy Spirit never forsakes any man whom he regenerates. As these are all questions of controversy, it will be time enough to receive them as so many grounds of argument when they are proved to be true. Till then they must be regarded as mere assumptions, and, consequently, as incapable of establishing the doctrine in proof of which they are adduced. But the advocates of the theory which we are considering attempt to support it,
3. By direct Scripture testimony. We will therefore proceed to an examination of the leading passages which they bring forward for this purpose.
Job 89:9: "The righteous also shall hold on his way, and he that hath clean hands shall be stronger and stronger." But this is far from saying that no righteous man. shall ever become unrighteous. If the passage is to be so understood, then we may safely assert, on the same principle, that no evil doer can ever be reformed; for it is expressly said that "evil men and seducers shall wax, worse and worse."
Psalm 89:30--35: "If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; if they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; then will I visit their transgression with the rod, arid their iniquity with stripes. Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly, take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness, that I will not lie unto David."
Every one must see that the covenant here spoken of related wholly to David and his seed. Had it, therefore, been absolute and unconditional, this would not prove that such is Gods covenant with all his spiritual children. But that it was a conditional covenant, though expressed in absolute terms, is evident from what follows in the same connection. "But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thin anointed. Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant; thou hast profaned his crown, by casting it to the ground." Thus God did "alter the thing that" hail "gone out of his lips," but without any impeachment of his truth.
Jeremiah 31:3: "I have loved thee with an everlasting love; there fore with loving-kindness have I drawn thee." Our opponents seem to quote this passage as an evidence that those whom God loves at one time always were and always will be the objects of his love. But there is certainly a wide difference between loving "with an everlasting love," in the sense of the text, and loving everlastingly, for the passage has no reference whatever to futurity "I have loved thee with an everlasting love." Nor do these words imply that no righteous man will ever turn from his righteousness, and so perish forever. They do not touch that question, but simply declare the, strong and abiding love of God to the Jewish Church. To see this it is only necessary to read the passage in connection with the preceding context. "At the same time, saith the Lord, I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people Thus saith the Lord, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest." Then the prophet adds, speaking in the person of, Israel, "The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love; therefore with loving kindness have I drawn thee."
Mark 16:16: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." Does this mean "he that believeth" at this moment "shall" certainly and inevitably "be saved?" If this interpretation is good, then, by all the rules of speech, the other part of the sentence must mean, "he that believeth not" at this moment "shall" certainly and inevitably "be damned." This interpretation, therefore, cannot be admitted. The obvious meaning of the whole sentence is, "He that believeth," if he continue to believe, "shall be saved; but he that believeth not," if he continue in unbelief, "shall be damned."
John 5:24: "He that heareth my word, and believeth en him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." Here we remark, 1. That the present condition of true believers is called in Scripture "everlasting life," or "life eternal," first, because it is the same in nature with the life of heaven; and secondly, because, in the order of saving grace, it leads to a life of glory. "This in life eternal," said our Lord, "that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." John 17:2. 2. That all who truly believe pass from spiritual death into thin state of spiritual life; and, 3. That if they continue steadfast they "shall not come into condemnation;" for surely the passage cannot mean that, when believers fall into gross sins, like David, Solomon, and Peter; they incur no condemnation.
John 10:27-28: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and. I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." Here we have only to ask, Who "shall never perish?" The answer is, Those who hear the voice of Christ, and follow him. This promise is, therefore, so far from being unconditional, that the condition is clearly expressed.
John 13:1: "Having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end." The passage means nothing more than that our Lord continued to love his disciples "'unto the end" Of his own life. If it were therefore true that persons once in grace must forever remain in that state the doctrine could derive no support from this passage, except by a false interpretation.
John 17:11: "Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." Calvinists have laid great stress upon this text as teaching the doctrine that all whom the Father has given to Christ in the covenant of grace must infallibly persevere to the end. And yet in the very next verse our Lord declares that one of those whom the Father had given him did not persevere to the end, but perished everlastingly. His own words are, "Those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition." So, then, one of this number was finally lost, which shows very clearly that the phrase "these whom thou hast given me" signifies here, if not in most other places too, the twelve apostles, and them only.
Roman 8:38-39: "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." But what does this text prove in regard to the perseverance of the saints? It proves that the apostle was at that time fully persuaded of his own perseverance, a persuasion which no doubt many Christians have at the present day called in Scripture "the full assurance of hope." It proves that he had the most unlimited confidence in the faithfulness and power of God to support his people in all the trials of life a doctrine which we most heartily believe, for it is written, "As thy days, so shall thy strength be." Deut. 33:25. But it does not prove the absolute and unconditional perseverance of all true believers to the end, for the apostle says, "I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection; lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." I Cor. 9:27.
These Scriptures, and a few others, have been pressed into the service of the Calvinistic theory of perseverance; but they utterly fail, when fairly interpreted, to establish the doctrine in support of which they are adduced. Nor is there a single passage in the Bible which, in its true import, proves the doctrine, in question. But to be fully convinced of this, let us consider,
III. THE ARGUMENT BY WHICH THE POSSIBILITY OF TOTAL APOSTASY IS SUPPORTED
The simple question now before us is this: Can a true believer so fall away as to perish everlastingly? Believing the affirmative of this question to be the doctrine of the Bible, we will proceed to adduce some of the numerous arguments by which it is established. We refer,
1. To those passages of scripture in which the doctrine is expressly taught. Thus Ezekiel 18:24: "But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned. In his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he bath sinned, in them shall he die."
That this is to be understood of eternal death appears evident from the twenty-sixth verse "When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; (here is temporal death;) for his iniquity that he hath done, shall he die." (Here is death eternal.)
To evade the force of these passages some assert that the righteousness of which the prophet speaks does not imply true piety, but it a mere external or hypocritical righteousness. This, however, is a most unhappy shift, for it turns the language of the prophet into downright nonsense. Thus: When one who is hypocritically "righteous turneth away from his" hypocritical "righteousness, and committeth iniquity, shall he live?" Doubtless he shall not, as the interrogatory clearly implies. But this fact does not depend upon his turning away from his righteousness, unless it can be shown that hypocritical righteousness will secure eternal life. Again, "All his" hypocritical "righteousness that he bath done shall not be mentioned;" that is, shall not be reckoned to him. Happy circumstance! that at least so much of his hypocritical life is to be passed over in silence. But why? Because "he doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth." To escape these absurdities we must admit that one who is truly righteous may nevertheless so fell away as to perish everlastingly.
John 15:1-2, 6: "I am the true vine, and my Father in the husband. man. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
Here we may remark, 1. That the persons spoken of are branches in the true Vine, Christ Jesus; 2. That some of these branches abide not in the Vine, but the Father taketh them away; 3. That the branches which abide not are cast forth, cast ant from Christ and his Church; 4. That they are withered, and, consequently, are never grafted in again; and, 5. That they are also cast into the fire and burned. It is not possible for words more strongly to declare that even those who are now branches of the true Vine may so fall from God as to perish forever.
Romans 11:17-18, 21-22: "If some of the branches be broken off and thou, being a wild olive-tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive-tree; boast not against the branches. For if God spared not- the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."
Here we observe, 1. That the olive tree spoken of is the invisible and spiritual Church of God, consisting of all true believers. For, says the apostle, "If the first fruit be holy, the lump is also holy; and if the met be holy, so are the branches." And again, "Because of unbelief they were broken off; and thou standest by faith." 2. The persons addressed were actually grafted into this olive-tree, and were therefore holy branches. 3. These, branches were still liable to be cut off from the olive-tree into which they were then grafted; and, 4. No intimation is given that the broken off branches were ever grafted in again. We conclude, therefore, that those who are members of the spiritual invisible Church may nevertheless so apostatize as to perish everlastingly.
I Timothy 1:18-19: "War a good warfare; holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away, concerning faith have made shipwreck." Here it is only necessary to remark, That the persons alluded to, such as Hymeneus and Alexander, had once that faith which purifies the heart and produces a good conscience; for otherwise they could not have "put it away." 2. That of this faith they "made shipwreck," which necessarily implies that it was totally and finally lost; for a vessel once wrecked can never be recovered. The apostle himself represents one of these men at least as being irrecoverably lost. His words are, "Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil; the Lord reward him according to his works." II Tim. 4:14. Hence one who possesses faith and a good conscience may so fall away as to perish everlastingly.
Hebrews 6:4-6: "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fell away, to renew them again unto repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
That the persons whom the apostle describes in this passage were true believers, cannot be denied without great absurdity; for it wou1d be a most glaring inconsistency to characterize the unregenerate by the terms and phrases which are here employed. They "were once enlightened;" an expression familiar with St. Paul, but which be never applied to those who were not true believers. "The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints." Eph. 1:18. And again, "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined into our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." II Coin. 4:6.
They had "tasted of the heavenly gift;" which was something more than a mere intellectual or sentimental approval of the Gospel, as some would have it. For, the heavenly gift is distinguished both from the Holy Spirit, and from the word of God mentioned afterward, which leaves us no choice but to interpret it of Christ. And then, to taste Christ is to receive his grace and mercy in the remission of sins. "If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious." I Peter 2:3.
They "were made partakers of the Holy Ghost;" which evidently means, in the language of the New Testament, to receive the Holy Ghost in his sanctifying and comforting influences. "Repent, and be baptized-every one of you in the name of Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38. Again, "The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts, by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us." Rom. 5:5.
They "tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come; "in other words; they heartily embraced the word of truth, and realized the saving power of the Gospel dispensation. And yet these persons, after possessing all these high attainments, so fell away that it was impossible "to renew them again unto repentance." Consequently, their fall was total and final.
But it will be said, the apostle only makes a supposition, "if they shall fell away." We answer, the apostle makes no supposition at all; for there is no if in the original. His words are, and having fallen away. We have, therefore, in this passage a proof almost as clear as language can make it, that those who are made the subjects of converting and sanctifying grace may nevertheless so fall away as to perish everlastingly.
Hebrews 10:26--29: "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery indignation which shalt devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses's law died without mercy under two or three witnesses. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"
Here it is undeniably plain, 1. That the person referred to as an example was once sanctified by the blood of the covenant; for, to suppose, as some have done, that it was Christ himself who was sanctified by this blood, is too absurd to need refutation. 2. That he afterward, by known and willful sin, trod under foot the Son of God; treating his person and authority with the utmost contempt, as did the Jews in his crucifixion. 3. That he counted the blood of Christ, by which the new covenant between God and man was ratified, sealed, and confirmed, "an unholy thing;" regarding it as destitute of any sacrificial or atoning merit. 4. That he insulted the Holy Spirit; and, 5. That by these means he incurred a sorer punishment than temporal -death, namely, death eternal. Therefore, those who are sanctified by the blood of Christ may yet fall away and perish forever.
There is one remark which we desire to make in regard to the last two passages quoted. It is this Though they establish, beyond successful controversy, the possibility of total and final apostasy, yet they do not prove, as seine have urged by way of objection to the doctrine, that no apostate can ever be recovered. They do not apply to back-sliders of every kind; but only to those who rejected the whole Christian system, abjured Christ, and joined with the blaspheming Jews in calling him an impostor. Thus they rendered their salvation impossible by willfully and maliciously rejecting the only means of recovery. But these passages do not apply to any apostate who still believes in Christ as the Redeemer of men, and acknowledges Christianity as a Divine revelation. To all such there remains an available "sacrifice for sins, and they may yet be recovered "out of the snare of the devil"
Many other texts of Scripture might be adduced in proof of the doctrine in question; but those which we hate quoted are quite sufficient for any present purpose. We will, therefore, proceed to argue the possibility of apostasy,
2. From Scripture examples. We now assume it as a fact, which we think the following oases will prove, that the Scriptures furnish us with examples of total and final apostasy. We refer,
(1.) To the case of Saul, king of Israel. That he was once in a state of grace and favor with God is sufficiently clear from what is recorded of him in I Samuel 10:6-7,9. Samuel said to him, "The Spirit of the Lord will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man. And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee. And it was so, that when he lad turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart." Thus we see that God gave Saul "another heart;" that he was "turned into another man;" that he possessed the spirit of prophecy, and that God was with him.
But in I Samuel 28:15, Saul tells Samuel, "I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me." And in I Samuel 31:4, the sacred historian informs as that "Saul took a sword, and fell upon it;" thus destroying his own life. If, therefore, the doctrine of the apostle is true, that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him," Saul must have perished in his sins.
(2.) Solomon. It will startle some to hear the name of Solomon among those who are regarded as examples of total and final apostasy. We need not attempt to prove that he once enjoyed the Divine favor, for this is what no one will deny. But it will be asked, What evidence have we of his apostasy? This question may be answered by a reference to the eleventh chapter of the first -book of Kings, ***** bit unlawful marriages with strange women and his shameful idolatry are recorded. It is, moreover, plainly declared that "the Lord was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the Lord God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice, and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods; but he kept not that which the Lord commanded." True, we are often told that Solomon was reclaimed from all his backsliding; but of this we have no evidence whatever. Indeed, the inspired record seems to contradict it; for according to this, the last act of his life was an attempt to kill Jeroboam. Thus the sacred historian leaves his condition under a dark cloud, which forbids us to believe that he entered into life eternal.
(3.) Judas Iscariot. "But was not Judas a devil from the beginning? "Certainly not. On the contrary, we have reason to believe that he was, when chosen as an apostle, the firm friend of our Lord. The psalmist speaks of him thus "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, bath lifted up his heel against me." Ps.91:9 That this prophecy refers directly to Judas cannot be doubted, for it is so applied to him by Christ himself (John 13:18.) Can we, then, seriously conclude that our Lord would bold familiar friendship with a devil, that he would receive him into his own family, and that he would send him forth to preach his Gospel and to cast out devils?
But it is said that our Lord called Judas a devil, and that he was, moreover, styled a thief. This is all true; but we must remember that he also applied to Peter the term Satan, which is only another name for the same evil spirit. Are we therefore to conclude that Peter had never been in a state of grace? Certainly not. It is also to, be remembered that Judas was not called a devil until near the time when he, wickedly betrayed his Master. That he became a wicked man is a matter of the clearest record. Hence it is asserted (John 13:27) that "Satan entered into him." Moreover, St. Peter declares that "Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." Acts 1:25. And it is also clear that he died under guilt, for he destroyed his own life.
(4.) The Israelites who fell in the wilderness. Of these we have an account in I Corinthians 10:1-5: "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptize unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual meat; and did all drink, the same spiritual drink; for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them; and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased; for they were overthrown in the wilderness."
(5.) The last case of this kind which we will notice is that of Hymeneus and Alexander: "Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away, concerning faith have made shipwreck. Of whom is Hymeneus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme." I Tim. 1:19-20. It is sometimes said that the faith which these persons possessed was not a true faith, and that the conscience referred to was not really a good conscience. And, therefore, though they are represented as falling from the favor of God, yet in reality they only fell from a profession of goodness. To this the only necessary reply is, 1. That the conscience spoken of is emphatically called "a good conscience;" and, 2. That St. Paul exhorts his son Timothy to hold fast the very same faith and conscience which he ascribes to Hymeneus and Alexander. It follows, therefore, that they are examples of total and final apostasy. But our doctrine may be argued,
3. From the cautions and warnings of the Scripture against unfaithfulness and apostasy. Thus: "Let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." I Cor. 10:12. "Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip" Heb. 2:1. "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." Heb. i3:12. "Let as therefore fear, lest a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it." Heb. 4:1. "Cast not away therefore your confidence, which bath great recompense of reward." Heb. 10:35. "Now the just shall live by faith; but if any man draw back, (literally, if the just man draw back,) my soul shall have no pleasure in him." Heb. 10:38. "Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness." II Peter 3:17.
That these Scriptures are addressed to true believers will hardly be denied; but if it is impossible for them to "fall," to "depart from the living God," to "cast away their confidence," or to "draw back unto perdition," why do the inspired writers use such warnings, cautions, and exhortations? Will the advocates of the unfrustrable perseverance of the saints tell us that this is a means by which believers are preserved from apostasy? This would certainly be in conflict with their own theory, which regards the perseverance of believers as being wholly unconditional. Or, will they say that this system of caution and warning is a means of exciting believers to watchfulness and proper Christian diligence? If so, it will be proper to inquire whether this system is based on truth. If it is, then it will necessarily follow that there is a danger of apostasy, and that our doctrine is true. But if no such danger exists, then we have the absurdity of supposing that the spiritual interests of Christians are promoted by a system of falsehood. The last argument which we will offer in support of our position is derived from the fact,
4. That the present life is a state of probation. A state of probation is one in which the character of men is formed and developed preparatory to a state of retribution. It involves obligations to obedience; commands and prohibitions; inducements to do right, and temptations to sin, with a certainty of final reward or punishment, according to the character which may be formed under the various circumstances of trial. It also enters into the very nature of a probationary state that the erring may be recovered, and that the obedient may go astray; for with out this it would not be a state of trial.
To deny that man is now in a state of probation is to deny the doctrine of a final judgment; for, in the economy of The Divine government, the one necessarily implies the other. If man has nothing to do in the formation of his own moral character, why is he required to "give account of himself to God?" and how could God say to any of our race, "Depart, ye cursed, into everlasting fire?" But if man is now in a probationary state there is no degree of saving grace which he may not forfeit; no height of holiness from which he may not fall. This is confirmed by the history of all moral beings with whom we have become acquainted. Angels fell from heaven, and Adam fell from paradisaical holiness. And such is the similarity between all moral beings in a state of trial, that the fall of angels and of our first parents is a corroborating fact in support of the doctrine that a state of probation involves the possibility of apostasy.
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This selection comes from Samuel Wakefield's "A Complete System of Christian Theology," published by Walden and Stowe, 1869
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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barrykind
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sister Carol quoted what i stated:
by barrykind:
[QUOTE] Walk in the Spirit, and we will fulfill the works of the flesh, and if we after walking in the Spirit, [fall away] amd walk in the flesh and stay there what is the END OF THIS MAN????
Timothy 1:7
For YHWH hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Walk in the Spirit, and we will fulfill the works of the flesh, and if we after walking in the Spirit, [fall away] amd walk in the flesh and stay there what is the END OF THIS MAN????
This is an edit note....i did not edit the above because i wanted to state that was surely a typo:!! it was suppose to read " walk in the Spirit and we will [NOT] fulfill the lusts of the flesh! Forgive me sister that is what i meant to say, i stand corrected and thankyou
sorry for the mistake.....hopefully yall know me well enough to know that was a slip.
bondservant
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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Carol Swenson
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barrykind
quote:
She quoted: THOSE WHOM I LOVE, I REPROVE AND DISCIPLINE; THEREFORE BE ZEALOUS AND REPENT. (Revelation 3:19)
what happens if that one your talking about sister is Not ZEALOUS AND REPENT. ?
THOSE WHOM I LOVE, I REPROVE AND DISCIPLINE
The Lord did NOT say those He loves He will blot out of the Book of Life!
quote:
What do we have to overcome?
Satan..no
World..no
People..no
SELF...perhaps the MARK of the BEAST [my opinion] folks {spiritual mark, physical mark}
The world, the flesh, and the devil. This is another topic. I'll start another thread.
quote:
Walk in the Spirit, and we will fulfill the works of the flesh, and if we after walking in the Spirit, [fall away] amd walk in the flesh and stay there what is the END OF THIS MAN????
Walk in the Spirit, and we will fulfill the works of the flesh...WHAT???
and if we after walking in the Spirit, [fall away] amd walk in the flesh and stay there what is the END OF THIS MAN????
Carnal
http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007041#000000
(Romans 6:3-7 NASB)
Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin.
barrykind, the way you're writing things here, it sounds like you're living by a whole bunch of rules, but you don't FEEL HIM in your heart. You don't TRUST HIM with your life.
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Caretaker
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Revelation 3:1-5 "To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."
Most of this church was composed of dead-unsaved nominal Christians, just as Jesus says "you are dead". In 1John 5:12, Jesus says, "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." Most of these Christians did not have the Son. But a few did and to those Jesus promised that he would never blot out their names from the book of life.
Also, some point out that the phrase "I will never blot out his name" implies that there are some people who do have their name written in the book of life whose name will be blotted out. But it does not say that explicitly. However some will point out Luke 10:20 "However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven." which was spoken to the disciples of whom we assume Judas was among them, but who was later condemned. Did he lose his salvation?
Besides the fact that no one had been born of God until the Spirit came at Pentecost and so the guarantees to those born of God were not effective until then, Jesus may not be telling them that their names were actually written in the book of life at that time. For example, if I said "Don't cry over spilt milk, rather cry at the lose of your brother." (Meaning the death of your brother), but in fact I'm not saying that your brother has died, but rather that if it occurs, cry over that. So Jesus may be saying "rejoice over your names being written in the book of life", not that they had yet been, and not over something like demons being subject to you.
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/etsec.html
http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007317;p=2
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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barrykind
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Sister Carol states:
quote:
Caretaker is right. Our Lord Jesus Christ is not going to just sit back and watch one of His own children foolishly wander off into hell. He loves us way too much to let that happen. And why would an omniscient Savior bother to save someone knowing that He would "unsave" him later on?
FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES. (Hebrews 12:6).
THOSE WHOM I LOVE, I REPROVE AND DISCIPLINE; THEREFORE BE ZEALOUS AND REPENT. (Revelation 3:19)
MOREOVER, WE HAVE ALL HAD HUMAN FATHERS WHO DISCIPLINED US AND WE RESPECTED THEM FOR IT. HOW MUCH MORE SHOULD WE SUBMIT TO THE FATHER OF OUR SPIRITS AND LIVE! OUR FATHERS DISCIPLINED US FOR A LITTLE WHILE AS THEY THOUGHT BEST; BUT GOD DISCIPLINES US FOR OUR GOOD, THAT WE MAY SHARE IN HIS HOLINESS. NO DISCIPLINE SEEMS PLEASANT AT THE TIME, BUT PAINFUL. LATER ON, HOWEVER, IT PRODUCES A HARVEST OF RIGHTEOUSNESS AND PEACE FOR THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN TRAINED BY IT. (Heb 12:9-11 NIV)
She quoted: THOSE WHOM I LOVE, I REPROVE AND DISCIPLINE; THEREFORE BE ZEALOUS AND REPENT. (Revelation 3:19)
what happens if that one your talking about sister is Not ZEALOUS AND REPENT. ?
We must read all of Revelation 3...
Revelation 3
1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
That is some strong scripture in bold; verse:
5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
You MUST what? OVERCOME or what?
He will BLOT your name out of the Book if Life!
So He says to what? REPENT
What do we have to overcome?
Satan..no
World..no
People..no
SELF...perhaps the MARK of the BEAST [my opinion] folks {spiritual mark, physical mark}
O mans heart is continually wicked, who can know it?
There in is where the problem is; our own self, Eve said "That serpent beguiled me" tricked me; Adam said "It was that woman" that "you" gave me.
Man has been trying to "pass the buck" [blame] ever since...But no
Its our own selfish nature that we must overcome...HOW?
(Spiritual warfare) the battle ground is our own mind. But take Hope for:
Timothy 1:7
For YHWH hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Walk in the Spirit, and we will fulfill the works of the flesh, and if we after walking in the Spirit, [fall away] amd walk in the flesh and stay there what is the END OF THIS MAN????
This is an edit note....i did not edit the above because i wanted to state that was surely a typo:!! it was suppose to read " walk in the Spirit and we will [NOT] fulfill the lusts of the flesh! Forgive me sister that is what i meant to say, i stand corrected and thankyou
Death [spiritual] why? because he did not REPENT, and OVERCOME; there for his name will be blottede out of the book of life!
Is that now what the scripture says?
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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Carol Swenson
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Caretaker is right. Our Lord Jesus Christ is not going to just sit back and watch one of His own children foolishly wander off into hell. He loves us way too much to let that happen. And why would an omniscient Savior bother to save someone knowing that He would "unsave" him later on?
FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES. (Hebrews 12:6).
THOSE WHOM I LOVE, I REPROVE AND DISCIPLINE; THEREFORE BE ZEALOUS AND REPENT. (Revelation 3:19)
MOREOVER, WE HAVE ALL HAD HUMAN FATHERS WHO DISCIPLINED US AND WE RESPECTED THEM FOR IT. HOW MUCH MORE SHOULD WE SUBMIT TO THE FATHER OF OUR SPIRITS AND LIVE! OUR FATHERS DISCIPLINED US FOR A LITTLE WHILE AS THEY THOUGHT BEST; BUT GOD DISCIPLINES US FOR OUR GOOD, THAT WE MAY SHARE IN HIS HOLINESS. NO DISCIPLINE SEEMS PLEASANT AT THE TIME, BUT PAINFUL. LATER ON, HOWEVER, IT PRODUCES A HARVEST OF RIGHTEOUSNESS AND PEACE FOR THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN TRAINED BY IT. (Heb 12:9-11 NIV)
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Caretaker
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No Brother Barry you are placing your perspective/personal interpretation over the top of the scripture. This is called eisegesis.
When the Believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit of God, he is indwelt by God. From the indwelling presence of God the Fruit of the Spirit is produced, one fruit of which is faith along with:
love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, meekness, temperance.
Ephesians 2:
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Which of the soils produced fruit?
You say they were more mature who produced and yet all soils received the seed at the same time.
The difference was NOT the maturity of the soil but the condition of the soil. It was the condition of the receiving heart which made the difference.
There are Five Virgins who have oil in their lamps, (the oil being a symbol of God's Holy Spirit), and Five who do not, and the Lord says "I know you not", and yet they are all waiting for the return of the bridegroom.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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barrykind
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Brother Drew you state:
quote:
And the true Believer WILL NOT walk away. The true Believer who is sealed with the Holy Spirit, in whom the fruit of the Spirit is produced.
Matthew 13:
3And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Now, consider that we can't earn salvation by our "good deeds," and therefore we can't lose salvation by our "bad deeds." In other words, we can't lose our salvation no matter how badly nor how often we sin.
The way that we receive salvation is by making a choice to put our faith in Yahushua as our Savior, and therefore the only way that we can lose salvation is by undoing our choice (i.e. by choosing to reject Yahushua).
So is it possible to reject Yahushua and lose our salvation? Prayerfully examine the following passages and consider the questions that they raise:
1. "This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of Yahweh. Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop." (Luke 8:11-15. See also Matthew 13:18-23 and Mark 4:13-20)
Notice that there are four groups of people described in this parable. The first group represents all unbelievers, from whom the devil has snatched the Word of God so that they won't believe and be saved.
The second group of people are those who believe for awhile, but when they are tested they fall away. Some Bible teachers say that this group believed with their minds but not with their hearts, and therefore they never received salvation. However, notice how Yahushua described the first and second groups. Yahushua said that the first group was not saved because they did not believe, but He said that the second group did believe until they fell away.
Yahushua did not qualify this by saying that they only believed with their minds, but instead He referred to them as believers. Therefore, some Bible teachers say that these are people who were saved, but they fell away from the faith and lost their salvation.
The third group of people are those who hear the Word, but they are so caught up in worldly things that the Word of Yahweh becomes "choked" within them. This comes from a Greek word that can also be translated as "strangled" or "suffocated" (according to Strong's Greek Dictionary). These words convey the idea of death, not the abundant life that we have in the Messiah. There is some debate among scholars about whether these are simply immature Christians, or whether these people are even saved at all.
The fourth group represents true, mature believers, who retain the Word and produce a crop by persevering.
So in this parable we have one group (group #1) which represents all unbelievers, and one group (group #4) which represents all true, mature believers. It's possible (as some people believe) that one or both of the other two groups represent people who received salvation, but then they "fell away" from the faith and lost their salvation. Our doctrinal biases might not allow us to consider this interpretation, but that's not a very good way to study the Bible. We might not like the possibility of Christians losing their salvation, but we can't afford to dismiss this possibility without examining all of the evidence. If yahushua was warning us that Christians can lose their salvation by "falling away," then we need to know that!
This parable is found in Matthew 13:18-23, Mark 4:13-20, and Luke 8:11-15.
There is many things that Yahushua was implying and showing us in the parable of the sower brother Drew.
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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Caretaker
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quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
Brother Drew stated:
quote:
Those who are known will persevere for none can pluck them out of the Father's Hand.
The question is not anyone or any devil plucking one from Yahwehs hand......it is can one turn away, can ones love grow cold and leave the faith.
i have proved that with scriptures numerous times.
Dont know what else i could post, for if you have ears to hear one would hear..
And the true Believer WILL NOT walk away. The true Believer who is sealed with the Holy Spirit, in whom the fruit of the Spirit is produced.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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barrykind
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Brother Drew stated:
quote:
Those who are known will persevere for none can pluck them out of the Father's Hand.
The question is not anyone or any devil plucking one from Yahwehs hand......it is can one turn away, can ones love grow cold and leave the faith.
i have proved that with scriptures numerous times.
Dont know what else i could post, for if you have ears to hear one would hear..
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
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barrykind
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IS THE LAW STILL VALID?
Are we yet "under the law"? Does the Law of God still exist? Aren't we under Grace?
Paul and the other apostles wrote that we are no longer under the law, but they also wrote:
Against false gods - 1 Corinthians 8:4-6
Against graven images - Acts 19:23-27
Against greed - Colossians 3:5
Against idolatry - Ephesians 5:5
Against profanity - Ephesians 5:4, Colossians 3:5
Against murder - Revelation 21:8, 1 John 3:15
Against adultery - 1 Corinthians 6:9, Galatians 5:19-21
Against stealing - Ephesians 4:28, Titus 2:10
Against lying - 1 Corinthians 6:9, Ephesians 4:25, Colossians 3:8,9
For Obedience - Ephesians 6:1-3
So what's the deal? Why all the mention of law in the New Testament if we're not under the law?
Matthew 5:17-18
17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
The Law was never done away with.
BUT! We ARE free from the law, under one condition.
Galatians 5:16-25
16: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17: For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24: And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25: If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
There is a HUGE distinction between walking in the Spirit and walking in the flesh, and if you walk in the Spirit you have no need for the law because you won't be breaking the law! The law has NO power over you if you do not break it!
We are no longer under the law, IF we walk in the Spirit.
For GOD is NOT mocked, whatsoever a man soweth that shall he also reap...to the flesh CORRUPTION..gone to hell my freinds.
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
[B]There is no "if" in Christ only a "is"!
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
one verse at a time I am going to post all the if as they pertain to salvation...
I am very well versed in the side of perseverance you insist to post but there is a balance to every issue!
the scriptures either compliment each other or contradict each other....
I believe the complement each other......
I also believe scripture must be taken in fully as they are rightfully divided.
Those that understand the Mystery rest in the truth that we are eternally secure in Christ and, thankfully, have the assurance of it. (Rom. 6:23, Eph. 1:13,14).
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world,.... The sins of it, the governing vices of it, which the men of the world are addicted to, and immersed in; for the whole world lies in wickedness, and which are of a defiling nature: the phrase is Rabbinical; it is said (q),
"he that studies not in the law in this world, but is defiled , "with the pollutions of the world", what is written of him? and they took him, and cast him without:''
these, men may escape, abstain from, and outwardly reform, with respect unto, and yet be destitute of the grace of God; so that this can be no instance of the final and total apostasy of real saints; for the house may be swept and garnished with an external reformation; persons may be outwardly righteous before men, have a form of godliness and a name to live, and yet be dead in trespasses and sins; all which they may have
through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. The Vulgate Latin, and all the Oriental versions, read, our Lord, and the latter leave out, "and Saviour"; by which "knowledge" is meant, not a spiritual experimental knowledge of Christ, for that is eternal life, the beginning, pledge, and earnest of it; but a notional knowledge of Christ, or a profession of knowledge of him, for it may be rendered "acknowledgment"; or rather the Gospel of Christ, which, being only notionally received, may have such an effect on men, as outwardly to reform their lives, at least in some instances, and for a while, in whose hearts it has no place. Now if, after all this knowledge and reformation,
they are again entangled therein; in the pollutions of the world, in worldly lusts, which are as gins, pits and snares:
and overcome; by them, so as to be laden with them, and led away, and entirely governed and influenced by them:
the latter end, or state,
is worse with them than the beginning; see Matthew 12:45. Their beginning, or first estate, was that in which they were born, a state of darkness, ignorance, and sin, and in which they were brought up, and was either the state of Judaism, or of Gentilism; their next estate was an outward deliverance and escape from the error of the one, or of the other, and an embracing and professing the truth of the Christian religion, joined with a becoming external conversation; and this their last estate was an apostasy from the truth of the Gospel they had professed, a reception of error and heresy, and a relapse into sin and immorality, which made their case worse than it was at first; for, generally, such persons are more extravagant in sinning; are like raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; and are seldom, or ever, recovered; and by their light, knowledge, and profession, their punishment will be more aggravated, and become intolerable.
(q) Zohar in Gen. fol. 104. 3. Vid. Bechinot Olam, p. 178.
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world - This does not necessarily mean that they had been true Christians, and had fallen from grace. People may outwardly reform, and escape from the open corruptions which prevail around them, or which they had themselves practiced, and still have no true grace at heart.
Through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesses Christ - Neither does This imply that they were true Christians, or that they had ever had any saving knowledge of the Redeemer. There is a knowledge of the doctrines and duties of religion which may lead sinners to abandon their outward vices, which has no connection with saving grace. They may profess religion, and may Know enough of religion to understand that it requires them to abandon their vicious habits, and still never be true Christians.
They are again entangled therein and overcome - The word rendered "entangled," (ἐμπλέκω emplekō,) from which is derived our word "implicate," means to braid in, to interweave; then to involve in, to entangle. It means here that they become implicated in those vices like an animal that is entangled in a net.
The latter end is worse with them than the beginning - This is usually the case. Apostates become worse than they were before their professed conversion. "Reformed" drunkards, if they go back to their "cups" again, become more abandoned than ever. Thus, it is with those who have been addicted to any habits of vice, and who profess to become religious, and then fall away. The "reasons" for this may be:
(1) that they are willing now to show to others that they are no longer under the restraints by which they had professedly bound themselves;
(2) that God gives them up to indulgence with fewer restraints than formerly; and,
(3) their old companions in sin may be at special pains to court their society, and to lead them into temptation, in order to obtain a triumph over virtue and religion.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Caretaker
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God bless you brother Dale;
The Word of God is consistent in its context.
Jesus told about the planting of seed in the different soils, the wayside, the shallow rocky, and the deep rich. It was only in the deep rich soil did the seed take root, and produce fruit, was able to persevere.
Not everyone that knows the Gospel and says "Lord Lord", is known by Christ.
Those who are known will persevere for none can pluck them out of the Father's Hand.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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becauseHElives
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[B]There is no "if" in Christ only a "is"!
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
one verse at a time I am going to post all the if as they pertain to salvation...
I am very well versed in the side of perseverance you insist to post but there is a balance to every issue!
the scriptures either compliment each other or contradict each other....
I believe the complement each other......
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
back to the topic ....Once Saved Always Saved ??
Wildb said quote:
There is no "if" in Christ only a "is"!
Rom 11:21-22 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
sounds like He can unseal what He has sealed to me!
Then it would read: otherwise God shalt unsealeth thee.
Christ was also was cut off according to Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,.
What did that sound like to you? Well it is clear to all the rest that being cut off has nothing to do with eternal condemnation..
John Willson serves as one of the Bible Correspondence Instructors for Prison Mission Association, and is a good friend to Berean Bible Society. He has been a welcome contributor to the pages of the Berean Searchlight for many years.
The Believing Remnant, Preserved and Secure
By John Willson
There has been much debate about the security of believers during this dispensation of Grace, but what about believers in the Old Testament, and during the Kingdom Age? By following the references found in the Scofield Study Bible, we can trace the believing remnant of Israel, and draw some conclusions about the security of believers in other dispensations.
There has always been a remnant since the nation began with Abraham in Genesis 12. We refer to these people as the believing remnant because Romans 9:6-7 says, "...for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel, neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but in Isaac shall Thy seed be called." Throughout Israel's history we see that the majority of this nation was unbelieving, or as God said of them in Romans 10:21, "...a disobedient and gainsaying people." However, there was always the believing few, as Paul states in Romans 11:5: "Even so at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."
Elijah thought he was the only faithful one left in Israel, yet God said to him, "I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal." In Isaiah's day the number may have been smaller, because Isaiah 1:9 says, "Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and...Gomorrah." Isaiah also prophesied the return of the future remnant during the seven-year tribulation (Isaiah 10:20-22). There are many references to the believing remnant throughout Isaiah and Jeremiah, as there are in the other prophetical books. In the four Gospels we see the believing remnant in those who "...looked for redemption in Jerusalem" (Luke 2:36-38). These would be those like Simeon, Anna, Zacharias and Elizabeth, Mary, John the Baptist and all those who believed God's promises. The Lord referred to them as the little flock, for in Luke 12:32 He said, "Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the Kingdom."
Matthew 24 is a lengthy prophecy of the seven-year tribulation. It is addressed primarily to the believers who will be on earth at that time. Verses 3-12 speak of sorrows and persecutions, wars and famines. Then verse 13 says, "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." This will be the fulfillment of Zechariah 13:8-9, because they will be that third part of the nation brought through the fire of the tribulation. These verses read, "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die, but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people, and they shall say, The LORD is my God."
This verse in Matthew 24:13 does not mean that a person must "endure to the end" or lose his salvation as some teach. This verse is saying that he that lasts or lives through that period will be saved through it and enter into the Kingdom. As God said, "And I will bring the third part through the fire...."
It is very possible that the prophecy of the 144,000 in Revelation 7:4 is referring to this remnant. It reads, "...there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel." If they were sealed, they were secure, and it did not depend on their endurance. This is similar to the truth for us in Ephesians 4:30, "...ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."
We know the believing remnant during Jesus' ministry was secure as John 10:28 states: "...they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (see also verse 29). If these kingdom believers were safe and secure, those whom God will bring through the tribulation will be also.
This brings up the question of the security of all the Old Testament saints. There is no example of a true believer losing his salvation or fearing that he would lose it. Also there is no verse that indicates that these Old Testament saints had to maintain good works to remain saved. The word preserve as used in several Old Testament verses indicates the safety and security of God's people:
Psalm 97:10—"...He preserveth the souls of His saints...."
Psalm 37:28—"For the LORD...forsaketh not His saints, they are preserved forever...."
Psalm 145:20—"The LORD preserveth all them that love Him."
Those whom the Lord knows are often called saints, meaning those HE has sanctified and set apart for Himself. Those kingdom saints were promised eternal life in the future Kingdom, and they knew that God would keep His promise. David's confidence is expressed in Psalm 23:6, "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever." Job was confident when he said, "I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth...yet in my flesh shall I see God" (Job 19:25-26).
Tracing the remnant through the Bible is an interesting study, not only in the Old Testament and in the four gospels, but also through Acts. Also they are addressed in the Jewish-Christian epistles of James, Peter, and John. James writes to the twelve tribes scattered abroad (James 1:1) and Peter addresses them as the strangers scattered (I Peter 1:1). Then John writes of them often in the great prophecy of Revelation. The remnant was always a minority, even as true believers today are a small minority, yet God gives to all His people the assurance of eternal life, regardless of the dispensation they are under.
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That is all.....
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Carol Swenson
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Romans 11:21
The gospel is the greatest riches of every place where it is. As therefore the righteous rejection of the unbelieving Jews, was the occasion of so large a multitude of the Gentiles being reconciled to God, and at peace with him; the future receiving of the Jews into the church would be such a change, as would resemble a general resurrection of the dead in sin to a life of righteousness.
Abraham was as the root of the church. The Jews continued branches of this tree till, as a nation,they rejected the Messiah; after that, their relation to Abraham and to God was, as it were, cut off.
The Gentiles were grafted into this tree in their room; being admitted into the church of God. Multitudes were made heirs of Abraham's faith, holiness and blessedness. It is the natural state of every one of us, to be wild by nature. Conversion is as the grafting in of wild branches into the good olive. The wild olive was often ingrafted into the fruitful one when it began to decay, and this not only brought forth fruit, but caused the decaying olive to revive and flourish.
The Gentiles, of free grace, had been grafted in to share advantages. They ought therefore to beware of self-confidence, and every kind of pride or ambition ; lest, having only a dead faith, and an empty profession, they should turn from God, and forfeit their privileges. If we stand at all, it is by faith; we are guilty and helpless in ourselves, and are to be humble, watchful, afraid of self-deception, or of being overcome by temptation.
Not only are we at first justified by faith, but kept to the end in that justified state by faith only; yet, by a faith which is not alone, but which worketh by love to God and man. (Ro 11:22-32)
(Matthew Henry)
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becauseHElives
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back to the topic ....Once Saved Always Saved ??
Wildb said quote:
There is no "if" in Christ only a "is"!
Rom 11:21-22 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
sounds like He can unseal what He has sealed to me!
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Carol Swenson
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Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)
The first resurrection. If there is a first, there must be others.
And there are!
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Caretaker
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The "Bema seat" (or judgment seat) was an elevated seat, located in Corinth. At this seat in the square, Roman magistrates would sit and administer justice. Athletes may also have appeared here and received rewards for having distinguished themselves.
If a person is unsaved and dies in their sin, they will be judged at the "great white throne judgment" following the Millennium. If a person is a born-again believer in Jesus, they will be judged at the "judgment seat of Christ." Salvation is not an issue at this judgment. Their sins have already been forgiven. A person might then ask, how will we be judged? and for what will we be judged?
At this judgment, we must give an account of our life and what we did or did not do for the Lord. The believer's service to God will be reviewed and rewarded. For his lack of service or doing certain things, he will suffer loss. We will be held responsible for the things we did in our body. Every hidden thing will be made known. Every secret thing we said will be proclaimed; nothing will be hid. All believers must appear before this judgment seat.
2 Cor. 5:
10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Romans 14:
10: But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11: For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12: So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Some people will receive crowns in heaven as a special kind of reward for their sacrificial living while on earth.
The twenty-four elders seated around God's throne wear golden crowns and white garments (Revelation 4:4).
While we don't know the identity of these individuals or even exactly what the crowns represent, we do know these people overcame intense difficulties. The Greek word used for "crown" in this passage is stephanos: a victor's crown.
Five different crowns are mentioned in Scripture:
The imperishable crown for those who exhibit disciplined lives (1 Corinthians 9:2527).
The crown of rejoicing for those who lead others to Christ (1 Thessalonians 2:1920, Philippians 4:1).
The crown of righteousness for those who love his appearing (2 Timothy 4:Cool.
The crown of glory for those who faithfully shepherd the flock (1 Peter 5:24).
The crown of life for those who overcome spiritual battles (James 1:12, Revelation 2:10).
The above list is probably more suggestive than it is exhaustive. God may hand out crowns to many other faithful believers and for many other purposes. These crowns won't be awarded so we can show off our earthly accomplishments. Nor will they be for the purpose of making a fashion statement. I believe that these crowns signify different positions and assignments throughout eternity.
1 Thess. 4:
14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Rev. 20:
4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
John saw thrones and they sat upon them, AND HE SAW the souls of them who had been beheaded and they lived and reigned.
The dead in Christ whom the Lord brings with Him, and we which are alive and remain caught-up to EVER be with the Lord!!!!!
5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
THE SECOND RESURRECTION:
11: And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
There are no LIVING before the Great White Throne!!!!!!
None of the Righteous Dead in Christ before the Great White Throne!!!!
John 14:
2: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3: And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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barrykind
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Please sister Carol read this :
we are drifting from the Original thread and this topic is in the thread End time Error:
But ill post it here for you to see:
What is the Doctrine of Premillennial Dispensationalism?
Although few people would recognize it from its technical name, most Christians have been exposed to it. The teaching goes like this:
The second coming of Christ will take place in two phases. In the first phase, Jesus will return secretly to accomplish three things:
1) Resurrect believers (who have died)
2) Rapture believers - Delivering them from the coming tribulation
3) Judge believers
Jesus will then return to heaven, taking all believers with him. After the 7 year tribulation period is over, Jesus will again return to Earth (phase 2) to set up his kingdom. At this time, he will sit upon the throne of David and reign from earthly Jerusalem for 1000 years. After the 1000 years are over, Jesus will do three things:
1) Resurrect Unbelievers
2) Judge Unbelievers
3) Create New Heavens and a New Earth.
The Biblical Teaching on the Resurrection Refutes This Doctrine
According to Premillennial Dispensationalism, the resurrection of the believers will take place 1007 years before the resurrection of unbelievers. What about this? Does the Bible teach that there will be two resurrections separated by a period of 1007 years?
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation.
John 5:28,29
This passage tells us clearly that there is an hour (one point in time) coming in which all (not some) that are in the graves shall come forth (be resurrected). Some will be resurrected unto life and some unto condemnation. There will be one resurrection but two destinations.
So does the Bible teach that there will be two resurrections - one for believers and one for unbelievers separated by 1007 years? No! The Bible teaches that both believers and unbelievers will be resurrected at the same time.
Since we only need one verse to refute a false teaching, we could stop right here. This doctrine is a false doctrine! If even one verse of scripture contradicts a teaching, that teaching is wrong. You might say "But what about this verse or what about that verse?" If so, you're missing the point. If your interpretation of those verses is correct, it will not contradict this verse. Let's look at another passage.
But this I [Paul] confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and the prophets: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Acts 24: 14,15
Here we have Paul the Apostle telling us what he believes (surely we know that he is right). He tells us that there will be a (one) resurrection of the dead. Who will be there? Both the just and the unjust. Now, if I told you that I was going to give you a car, would you expect two?
Of course not! You would expect one. So when the Bible says that there will be a resurrection and that both the saved and the unsaved will be there, it eliminates the possibility of there being two resurrections separated by 1007 years.
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time [THE GREAT TRIBULATION]: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Daniel 12:1-3
Here again we have believers and unbelievers being raised at the same time. Notice when it takes place. After the tribulation. Scripture is so clear that it is hard to see how someone could miss it. Most people, however, do not get their beliefs from what the Bible actually teaches, but from what someone tells them it teaches.
The Biblical Teaching on the Judgment Refutes This Doctrine
Premillennial Dispensationalism teaches not only that there will be two resurrections, but also that there will also be two judgments. Does the Bible teach that there will be two judgments - one for believers and one for unbelievers separated by 1007 years?
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commented all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Acts 17:30-31
God has appointed a (one) day in which he will judge the whole world. Not two separate days 1007 years apart. How can so many people believe this doctrine, when it is so clearly refuted in scripture?
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory; And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep oh his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: ... Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: ... And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Matthew 25:31-34,41,46
This is a passage has been twisted by many today (2 Pet. 3:16), but it means exactly what it says. When Jesus Christ comes, he will sit in judgment over all (both believers and unbelievers). The saved and the lost will both be judged at the same time, not 1007 years apart.
People used to talk about judgment day. But you don't hear that term much anymore. This false teaching has changed judgment day into judgment days. The Bible, however, speaks of the day (not days) of judgment.
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust [UNBELIEVERS] unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2 Peter 2:9
Unbelievers will be judged on the day of judgment.
Herein is our love made perfect, that we [BELIEVERS] may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1 John 4:17
Believers will be judged on the day of judgment.
Believers and unbelievers will both be judged on the day of judgment. It couldn't be any clearer. Both will be judged on the same day, not on two different days 1007 years apart.
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against THE DAY OF JUDGMENT and perdition of ungodly men. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Peter 3:7,10
This passage tells us that on the day of judgment the heavens and the earth will be burned up. We have previously seen that both believers and unbelievers are judged on this same day of judgment. So the heavens and the earth will be burned up the same day in which everyone is judged, despite what Premillennial Dispensationalism teaches. Let God be true, but every man a liar (Rom. 3:4).
The Biblical Teaching on the Last Day Refutes This Doctrine
Premillennial Dispensationalism teaches that believers will be resurrected 1007 years before eternity (the end of time). Is this true?
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him [BELIEVERS], may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:40
No. It's not true. Believers will be resurrected on the last day of human history. How could you have 1007 years after the last day? If you did, it would not have been the last day. And if it is the last day, there can't be any other days after it. The Bible makes it so clear. All you have to do is believe what is says. Premillennial Dispensationalism is a lie!
He that rejecteth me and receiveth not my words [UNBELIEVERS], hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
John 12:48
According to this verse, Unbelievers will be judged on the last day. We have already seen that believers will be resurrected on this same last day. The Bible says that both of these events will take place at the same time. Premillennial Dispensationalism says that they will not. Who are you going to believe? God or men?
The Biblical Teaching on the End of the World Refutes This Doctrine
The Bible tells us about the end of the world.
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Matthew 13:24-30
Here we have the parable of the wheat and tares. The interpretation of the parable is given a little further on in the chapter.
He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom [believers]; but the tares are the children of the wicked one [unbelievers]; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Matthew 13:37-43
According to Jesus, believers and unbelievers will not be separated until the end of this world. Premillennial Dispensationalism teaches that they will be separated (at the pre-tribulation rapture) 1007 years before the end of this world. Which are you going to believe? What do you think of a teaching that contradicts the Bible in so many places? More importantly, what does Jesus think of it?
So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans [A FALSE DOCTRINE], which thing I [JESUS] hate.
Revelation 2:15
Jesus hates false doctrine. Do you?
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked [UNBELIEVERS] from among the just [BELIEVERS], And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:47-50
This passage tells us that the Judgment of believers will take place at the same time as the judgment of unbelievers. It also tells us that both will take place at the end of the world.
The Biblical Teaching on the New Heavens and New Earth Refutes This Doctrine
Premillennial Dispensationalism teaches that there will not be new heavens and a new earth until 1000 years after the Second Coming of Christ. Is this true?
But the day of the Lord [THE DAY OF CHRIST'S COMING] will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2 Peter 3:10-13
The present heavens and earth will be destroyed at the Second Coming of Christ, not 1000 years after. We will also have new heavens and a new earth at that time.
Jesus must remain in heaven until the time comes for the restoration of all things. This will include, not only the resurrection of our bodies, but also the renewal of the earth.
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Romans 8:22-23
Jesus must remain in heaven and will not come back to earth until the time comes for us to have a new earth.
The Biblical Teaching on The Reign of Christ Refutes This Doctrine
When did Jesus begin to reign upon the throne of David? Premillennial Dispensationalism teaches that this event has not yet occurred. It teaches that Jesus will sit upon the throne of David and begin to reign from earthly Jerusalem at the second coming. Is this true?
Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Acts 2 29-33
This passage is very clear. When God promised David that Christ would sit upon his throne, He was speaking about the resurrection and ascension of Christ - not his second coming. This promise was fulfilled when Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father. Jesus is reigning now, not from earthly Jerusalem but from heavenly Jerusalem (Heb. 12:22, Gal. 4:25-26).
Then cometh the end, when he [JESUS] shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Here again, we see that Jesus is reigning now. He will continue to reign until he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be put under his feet will be death (by the resurrection) at the second coming. At that point, Jesus shall deliver the kingdom over to the Father.
bondservant
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Carol Swenson
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Not every believer is ambitious for the Lord, but every believer is going to appear before the Lord; and now is the time to prepare. The Judgment Seat of Christ is that future event when God’s people will stand before the Saviour as their works are judged and rewarded (see Rom. 14:8-10). Paul was ambitious for the Lord because he wanted to meet Him with confidence and not shame (1 John 2:28).
The term “judgment seat” comes from the Greek word bema, which was the platform in Greek towns where orations were made or decisions handed down by rulers (see Matt. 27:19; Acts 12:21; 18:12). It was also the place where the awards were given out to the winners in the annual Olympic Games. This “judgment seat” must not be confused with the Great White Throne from which Christ will judge the wicked (Rev. 20:11-15). Because of the gracious work of Christ on the cross, believers will not face their sins (John 5:24; Rom. 8:1); but we will have to give an account of our works and service for the Lord.
The Judgment Seat of Christ will be a place of revelation; for the word appear means “be revealed.” As we live and work here on earth, it is relatively easy for us to hide things and pretend; but the true character of our works will be exposed before the searching eyes of the Saviour. He will reveal whether our works have been good or bad (“worthless”). The character of our service will be revealed (1 Cor. 3:13) as well as the motives that impelled us (1 Cor. 4:5).
It will also be a place of reckoning as we give an account of our ministries (Rom. 14:10-12). If we have been faithful it will be a place of reward and recognition (1 Cor. 3:10-15; 4:1-6). For those of us who have been faithful, it will be a time of rejoicing as we glorify the Lord by giving our rewards back to Him in worship and in praise.
(Wiersbe)
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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