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Topic: JESUS THE MESSIAH WOULD BE GOD HIMSELF
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Found in Him
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posted
Hi Oneinchrist,
The issue is approval that comes from God. The result of study will be men and women that can rightly divide the word of truth. The truth is what Christ's disciples seek. We are pupils, all of us.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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oneinchrist
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Hi Found in Him,
Respect for the fact that others can have differing viewpoints(not necessarily respect towards the viewpoint itself) is AN ISSUE(One of many) over the study of the word of God............what do you say is THE ISSUE over the study of the word of God?
I am sorry that I cannot agree that Jesus would have to be any less divine in the presence of a "hierarchy of authority".
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Found in Him
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Hi Oneinchrist,
We may all have many, many surprises when we see the other side. As far as respect, I respect you but I wasn't aware that that was the issue in a discussion over the word of God.
I am glad and truly thankful for the word of God. The main thing for folks to agree on is The Lord Jesus Christ.
Peace
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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oneinchrist
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Hi Found in Him,
I respect your opinion that a "hierarchy of authority" in the Godhead would have to mean that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are not all equal........ and I hope that you will respect my opinion that an established authority can exist without making one more or less equal than the other. The same thing exists in society with government and with the family. We do not say that we are less equal as humans than those governing forces who rule over us and we do not say that the wife and children are less equal because God has ordained the man as the head of the family.
I would not be surprised if the word "Godhead" itself is an indication of a recognized established authority in the Kingdom of heaven.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Found in Him
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Hi Oneinchrist,
I don't think that any have misunderstood the "authority" issue, rather I think the discussion was more over who might have more authority within the Godhead.
Yes I agree that God has set "order" "Ministers to do His good" in the Earth. We see this in the church (Leaders), Communities (Law Enforcement), Workplace (security), Country (Armed Forces), Home (Father) and so on.
My question is this: Jesus defined authority as "servanthood" did He not?
Read: Luke 22:21-30, Matthew 23:7-12
Hierarchy of Authority however within the Godhead would suggest that one or more members were not equal to the other. This is my argument because scripture is clear that God functions in harmony and has one divine will as God is One God. I don't deem The Father knowing only the day or hour a good comparison as Jesus is the only one found worthy to open the scrolls. To ponder such things is just too much. That's why I stick to the word of God and what it says.
God is just that... GOD
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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oneinchrist
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Hello all,
Please consider something on this matter of "authority" in relation to the persons of the Godhead. If one views "authority" in terms of rank(one above the other)or physical power or ability I think that they can get the wrong idea about what it may mean for there to be an established authority in the Godhead.............but if one looks at "authority" in terms of "rightful power to act or posses or control" then we can understand how, for instance, the Father can know the day and the time of Jesus' return where the Son claims to not have that right, of course, until that time does come.
We know that we humans can have very biased views on what the word "authority" means or implies. It seems to me that some have such a biased view on the word "authority" that they even refuse to believe that God has established a "hierarchy of authority" in the family. Its people who are the ones who abuse that God given right. Yes, it is sad because it is supposed to be carried out with a good measure of love and strict discipline.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Found in Him
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Hi Betty,
What I think is so beautiful is we find all throughout scripture God The Father and God The Son constantly exalting The Other above Himself in their speech.
It matches the example that Jesus set for us to humble ourselves and esteem others better than ourselves, putting God first.
What a beautiful God!
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Betty Louise
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David,
Good explanation. When I was a child, I got confused and I used to pray to God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit separately, but we do not have to do that. God is not jealous of Himself.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Found in Him,
I agree that God is One.
Do you agree that there is a hierarchy of authority in the persons of the Godhead? yes or no.
With love in Christ, Daniel
The persons of the Godhead are 1. They are not battling for authority nor is it about authority. Satan is the one worried about authority and wanted to exalt himself.
And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest. And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
Luke 22:24-27
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Copper25
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Found in Him said
"The Son himself . subject-not as the creatures are, but as a Son voluntarily subordinate to, though co-equal with, the Father. In the mediatorial kingdom, the Son had been, in a manner, distinct from the Father. Now, His kingdom shall merge in the Father's, with whom He is one; not that there is thus any derogation from His honor; for the Father Himself wills "that all should honor the Son, as they honor the Father" (Joh 5:22, 23; Heb 1:6)."
Yes this is true.
aand I say this
COLOSSIANS 1
14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19) For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell ;
20) And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
BTW, did I every say that the status, the glory of Christ would be diminished?
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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Found in Him
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Then "GOD" (The Father, Son and Holy Spirit) Shall be all in all. Right now we are all subject to Christ as God The Father has Him ABOVE ALL.
1 Corinthians 15
24 Then the end will come, when after he has done away with every ruler and every authority and power, the Messiah hands over the kingdom to God the Father. 25 For he must rule until God puts all the Messiah’s enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be done away with is death, 27 for “God has put everything under his feet.” Now when he says, “Everything has been put under him,” this clearly excludes the one who put everything under him. 28 But when everything has been put under him, then the Son himself will also become subject to the one who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Not because the Son was not subject to his Father before, but because his body, that is to say, the Church which is here in distress, and not yet wholly partaker of his glory, is not yet fully perfect: and also because the bodies of the saints which are in the graves, will not be glorified until the resurrection. But Christ as he is God, has us subject to him as his Father has, but as he is Priest, he is subject to his Father together with us.
The Son himself . subject-not as the creatures are, but as a Son voluntarily subordinate to, though co-equal with, the Father. In the mediatorial kingdom, the Son had been, in a manner, distinct from the Father. Now, His kingdom shall merge in the Father's, with whom He is one; not that there is thus any derogation from His honor; for the Father Himself wills "that all should honor the Son, as they honor the Father" (Joh 5:22, 23; Heb 1:6).
Verse 28
And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all, in all.
Coffman Commentaries
It is a gross error to see this passage as reducing in any manner the status of Jesus Christ and his "equality with God" (Philippians 2:6), the thing in view here being the end of Christ's mediatorial office. At the time of his kingdom being united with godhead in heaven, the need of those special devices which were necessary in human redemption shall have disappeared. This verse marks the end of the digression which Paul began back in 1 Cor. 15:20. He at once resumed his argument to show the absurdity of unbelief in the resurrection of the dead.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Copper25
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First off why would I ever say a thing like that, or imply it, I guess I should not do that type of tell me what you see thing, if you drawn such conclusion that I implied such a thing ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Who is God? Is God The Father separate from The Son and The Spirit? Which one is more God?
Now the truth is that...
We have a triune God who exist in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit
1 Corinthians 15
27)For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28) And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
look, look
when all things shall be subdued unto him
that is unto Christ
then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him
that is the Father
I never said that either one was more God!
nor that God The Father separate from The Son and The Spirit!
Now the truth is that...
We have a triune God who exist in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit
This shows Hierarchy, but let me make this very clear, "I never said that either one was more God nor that God The Father separate from The Son and The Spirit."
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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Found in Him
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The Father commands that all honor The Son as they honor The Father... The Son calls God His God.. The Father calls The Son His God... The Father gives The Son All authority and power in Heaven and in Earth... The Son hands the kingdom back to "GOD" at the end of the age.... The Father declares that there is No End to The Son's throne or reign... Jesus says "thine is the Kingdom" The Father exalts The Son and gives Him The name above all names... And The Spirit Joyfully has spoken all of The above to us.
They are ONE GOD. God The Father, God The Son, God The Holy Spirit. No one can separate them or assign them their rank, especially when they seem to esteem one another like this. It is Beautiful.
"Hear O Israel, The LORD our GOD is ONE GOD"
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Found in Him
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quote:
Originally posted by Copper25:
The Hierarchy of the Father on top, this is why I said on the other post which I meant to post on this one ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
1 Corinthians 15
27) For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28) And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
NOW LOOK AT THIS CLOSLY and tell me what you see
What do we see Copper?
Who is God? Is God The Father separate from The Son and The Spirit? Which one is more God?
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." (1 John 5:7).
"Hear, 0 Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD." (Deuteronomy 6:4). Our Lord Jesus Christ confirmed this in Mark 12:29.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Eden
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hi, oneinchrist, you wrote[quote]"whom He hasappointed heir of all things"
"who was faithful to Him who appointed Him"
--the words "chosen" and "ordained" are synonyms to "appointed".
Now my question is, how can anyone not see that there is a "hierarchy of authority" evident here?
I think that while Jesus was on earth in Isreal, Jesus did properly think and speak in terms of a hierarchy of authority.
But I think that now that Jesus is back in heaven, that the Son Jesus and the Father YHWY are having a wonderful united relationship together, and it is probably hard to tell that One is the Son and One is the Father, They love Each Other so much...but that there will always remain a Father YHWH and a Son Jesus Yashua and the Holy Spirit, NEVER MERGING INTO AND OUT OF EACH OTHER, but ALWAYS SEPARATE, that I personally believe.
thanks, Eden
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Found in Him
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi again Found in Him,
I was reading the book of Hebrews tonight and I could not help but notice the recurrence of the word "appointed" being used in reference to Jesus.
"whom He hath appointed heir of all things"
"who was faithful to Him who appointed Him"
--the words "chosen" and "ordained" are synonyms to "appointed".
Now my question is, how can anyone not see that there is a "hierarchy of authority" evident here?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Hi Oneinchrist...
you will find throughout the bible where God The Father sent Him for He was sent... The OT and NT states that He was sent, ordained, appointed and chosen.
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens. When I call to them, They stand up together.
Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me.
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: "I am the LORD your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go.” (Isaiah 48:12,16-17)
He was Faithful, in total humility, submission and obedience To The Father while on Earth in an Earth suit...yet He was God.
If you are looking for a "hierarchy of authority" within the Godhead... you are asking the wrong Gal ![[Wink]](wink.gif) ... "Hear O Israel, The LORD our GOD is One LORD"
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Eden
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1 Corinthians 15
27. For he has put all things under his feet. But when he says all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28) And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject to him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Will this hierarchy in the Godhead be permanent? And why not? Jesus is a Son of God, and as such is Pure God, just like a son of a human is Pure Human. So I have no problem with there being God the Father YHWH and God the Son and the Holy Spirit, all Three are now in the Godhead. What do I care, if there are One or Three? They are ALL GREAT!!!
So, Copper25, to be clear, what do YOU think that verse means, please?
1 Corinthians 15
27. For he has put all things under his feet. But when he says all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28) And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject to him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
For me, in any case, Those Three are FAR GREATER THAN I AM, and that's all that matters to me. Although I go much beyond that now that I have been saved for a while and have learned more about Them...
love, Eden who was never in Chilmad either
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Copper25
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The Hierarchy of the Father on top, this is why I said on the other post which I meant to post on this one
1 Corinthians 15
27) For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28) And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
NOW LOOK AT THIS CLOSLY and tell me what you see
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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Eden
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I'm very intrigued by this conersation about "hierarchy of authority" and that oneinchrist also joined on that "hierarchy of authority" side.
I do think that the LORD YHWY and the Lord Jesus Yahshua and the Holy Spirit are ALL DIVINE and NOT HUMAN, and as such, I think They are Altogether in the Thing that They do, which is at least DIVINE.
They are WAY more than we are as sinful descendants of Adam and Eve.
So the Father had a Son and like His Father, this Son is ETERNAL AND DIVINE, the SAME IN SUBSTANCE AND BEING AND LOOKALIKENESS AS HIS FATHER YHWY.
And the Holy Spirit is also clearly DIVINE. The Father DOES NOT MERGE INTO THE SON, nor does the SON MERGE INTO THE FATHER. They FOREVER stay Separate Persons of the Godhead and they DO NOTMERGE IN AND OUT OF EACH OTHER.
The Eternal Godhead, for me, consists of Three Lovely Divine Persons, to wit, the Divine LORD YHWH, the Divine Only Begotten Son Jesus Yahshua, and the Divine Holy Spirit.
What was the Nicean declaration again?
love, Eden who was never in Chilmad ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Copper25
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Revelation 19:13) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
john 1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Plain and simple, Christ is the word, and in John 1:1, it states that "the word was God."
Thus concluding that Jesus is God
Let's move one to another verse
Jonah 2:9) But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.
If jesus was anyone but God, salvation would not be of God considering the magnitude of cross, how he died to deliver us from bondage. And in what form did He do it in. In the form of a man.
Titus 2:
13) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ ;
14) Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Now let us look at the Book of colossians 1
13) Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14) In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Marvel at the God and our Savior Jesus who created the universe, who is before all things, and in whom all things are sustained.
Christ is God. The fleshy body was a veil, a covering of His true Godliness and array of power.
Eden said
So explain to me, dear brother Keeper who has the Spirit, what do YOU think the meaning is of Paul's phrases "the first man" and "the second man" and "the last Adam"?
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Matthew 1
1The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
2Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
3And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
4And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
5And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
6And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
7And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
8And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
9And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
10And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
11And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
12And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
13And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
14And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
15And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
The geneology of Christ. Christ was in the blood line of Adam, thus the scripture is fufilled
Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
and
1 corinthians 15:45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Christ who is God, came in likeness of man, being part of Adam's bloodline, is the second Adam through whom we are justified.
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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oneinchrist
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Hi again Found in Him,
I was reading the book of Hebrews tonight and I could not help but notice the recurrence of the word "appointed" being used in reference to Jesus.
"whom He hath appointed heir of all things"
"who was faithful to Him who appointed Him"
--the words "chosen" and "ordained" are synonyms to "appointed".
Now my question is, how can anyone not see that there is a "hierarchy of authority" evident here?
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Eden
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Hi, Keeper, let me say first of all that the Lord Jesus needs you to be here, if for no other reason than that I and others can bounce of what you say, for the glory of God if YOU are right and for the glory of God if I am right.
You wrote quote:
First, I would like to point out that Jesus was not made in the likeness of man, we were made in His likeness. In the flesh We were made first, but in His likeness.
Say what?
Acts 14:11
And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, "The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men."
Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful fleshp, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.
Philippians 2:7
But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and He was made in the likeness of men.
If Jesus had been on earth in His capacity as the Son of God, what would that have proved? Because sinful people would say, "yeah, but He is the Son of God, no wonder!". But when God sent His Son as the Son of man who was IDENTICAL to the first Adam, then sinful people could say, "the second man Jesus stayed 100% loyal to the Father during his lifetime, so that proves that the first Adam could have remained faithful to the LORD too". Therefore Jesus paid a "like price"; as by one:
Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
So explain to me, dear brother Keeper who has the Spirit, what do YOU think the meaning is of Paul's phrases "the first man" and "the second man" and "the last Adam"?
thanks, Eden
"have a great week in Jesus"
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Found in Him
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No I'm not running circles around Adam. Jesus was the GOD-MAN
Tell me Eden, If Jesus was not deity on that cross. Can less than God pay for the sins of the world? I think not.
And if Jesus was less than deity in the flesh-- you are not talking about the same Jesus of The Bible.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Eden
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sister Found in Him wrote quote:
Eden, There is no point in me discussing this with you (Eden) at all because you do not believe that Jesus was 100% GOD & 100% MAN when He walked this Earth.
I do believe Jesus was 100% like the first Adam before he sinned in the garden, and Jesus was not like us because we have descended from the sinful energy that came from Adam and Eve.
But Jesus was not descended from the sinful energy that came from Adam and Eve. Jesus was implanted in Mary (Miriam in Hebrew) as 100% pure Holy Spirit energy, the same clean Holy Spirit energy that the first Adam was made of.
So Jesus became the second man and the last Adam of whom there have been only two.
Because God had to show the world that IT WAS POSSIBLE to be made "just like the first Adam" and "remain faithful to God" as Jesus remained faithful.
And as soon as Jesus, as the second Adam, died on the cross for the first Adam's sins, then Jesus rose again from the dead on the 3rd day and became the original Son of God again, with the same eternal life that the Son of God had "before" the Son of God incarnated as the Son of man, from birth to death on the cross.
But now His glory is even greater. Whereas before His incarnation Jesus was already the Son of God, now Jesus is also the Son of man, and for that He is praised by all the angels, in that, as the Son of man, the Son of God saved a bunch of sinners so that His Father God could have a bunch of adopted sons and daughters, among whom we are also thankfully counted.
But in order to rebuff the first man Adam, Jesus as the second man Adam had to be "just like the first Adam before he sinned in the garden".
So explain to me, sister, what do YOU think Paul meant when he justaposed "the first man" with "the second man" and "the last Adam"? I noticed that you offered no explanation? And it would not surpise me if you did not have an explanation, because Paul's statements only make sense as I have explained them. Can I hear an Amen from the gallery?
love, Eden
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Found in Him
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Thank you Keeper for what you did respond. You show more patience than me in answering Eden. I have little patience with anyone that denies the deity of The Lord Jesus Christ... The word of God declares that Jesus Christ is The same yesterday, today and forevermore. He also has said "I The Lord change not"
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Keeper
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I am not FoundInHim, but here is my exposition, as you call it.
First, I would like to point out that Jesus was not made in the likeness of man, we were made in His likeness. In the flesh We were made first, but in His likeness.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish.....(King James Version)
I don't know what you mean about Jesus having no soul life.
Adam and Jesus are shown in the NT in two vital ways. First, the geneology of Christ leads back to Adam. This shows that Jesus the Son of God, as one who is also a true human being. (soul)
In Rom 5:12-21 and 1 Cor 15:20-49 Jesus is presented as a Second Adam, whose impact on the human race is in contrast to the negative impact of the First Adam.
Paul said that every man is "In Adam" or "In Christ". The fallen sinner is in relationship with the First Adam. Spiritual renewal brings one into a relationship with Christ.
I really don't want to get into the other stuff you had to say. You see, I need to be doing something else right now.
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Found in Him
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Eden, There is no point in me discussing this with you at all because you do not believe that Jesus was 100% GOD & 100% MAN when He walked this Earth.
You believe He emptied Himself of His deity-- The word of God states that He humbled Himself and "took on" the form of a servant-- He did not "strip off His deity". Or it would NOT have been the Lord! Jesus Christ was no less than deity, a member of the Godhead in a human man body.
“For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. . . . The first man Adam became a living being, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.” (1 Corinthians 1:21–22; 15:45–47).
He IS THE RESURRECTION and the LIFE!-- That's what I see here...
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Eden
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hello, Found in Him, I read your Topic and the verses in it are all from the Old Testament (OT), and the OT refers to a time when the Son of God was still in heaven, BEFORE His incarnation. Therefore in all those verses from the OT, Jesus, as the Son of God, is represented as being eternal, etc.
But when Jesus came to earth by way of Mary, Jesus divested Himself, emptied Himself of His prerogatives as the Son of God and incarnated as the Son of man, or second man, or last Adam.
Those statements by Paul about the second man and the last Adam would make NO SENSE unless Paul was pointing out that Jesus was, not only "made in the likeness of man" but also was made like the first man Adam, as Jesus became only the second Adam to have ever lived.
And then, unlike the first man Adam, the second man Adam remained 100% faithful and loyal to God and did not actuate his own soul life, and as a result the second Adam was filled with the glory of God again, just as the first Adam was in the garden before he sinned.
Or, Found in Him, perhaps you'd like to give me your explanation for Paul's phrases "the first man" and "the second man" and "the last Adam". I'm eagerly looking forward to your exposition.
love, Eden
"we are united by the unity of the Spirit"
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Found in Him
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I understand that Jesus is giving this kingdom right back to the Godhead, so that GOD might be "all in all" One God See, I just don't think our God will be happy until they bless each other over and over again. He's just like that!
Well, I believe that a husband and wife are "one" as the bible states (there is that lil word again) I believe that the husband (get this ) has a greater responsibility to the union and family before God. Christ laid down His life for His Bride (The Church). God blesses the institution of marriage calling them "one" Who is greater? Who has more authority? I think rather, who has the greater responsibility of the union and family before God.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Keeper
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"HEAD" primarily means "authority" when used in the contest of human relationships. But in the Greek word for "HEAD" can also mean "Source" or "orgin" in some cases.
Submission does not indicate inferiority, but subordination. Jesus and God are equally devine, and men and women (husbands and wives) are equal beings. Both have different roles.
I was listening to Point of View a couple of days ago and the author of a couple of books called "For Her Only" and "For Him Only" was written by her following a hard study of both sexes and it is about what makes them tick. Sounds like what this is all about. Sounds like not only do we have a certain role but are wired for it as well.
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oneinchrist
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Hi Found in Him,
I see what you are saying ........you believe that if you were to concede to a hierarchy of authority in heaven that it can no longer be considered one God. In other words, you would think that there would have to be a flaw in the nature of God if the three persons did not all have the same authority. I perceive that you do understand(according to the scriptures) that Jesus was GIVEN His authority. On that note, I do believe it would be safe to assume that Jesus was not given authority to "cancel out" or "take the place of" or to "usurp" the authority of the Father.
Do you also believe that there is no God ordained hierarchy of authority for the family? between the husband and wife, children and thier parents? How this authority is supposed to be carried out-----aside.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Found in Him
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Well, I won't answer yes or no as I believe that they are "One God"
I agree why should authority within The Godhead be of importance? He is God after all, right?
I am a Mother, Grandma, Sister, and yet I am a Daughter, a child, a friend, a tax payer (had to slide that one in there grrr),. Which one has more authority? and does it really matter? These may not be a very good example, but God is all in all~ One God. I guess that was my point.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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oneinchrist
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Hi Found in Him,
My friend in the Lord, thank you for your sincere response, even though you did not answer with a yes or no. I agree that it is Gods business how He is going to delegate. Scripture does give us some insight into that ......for ex: Jesus is given authority to forgive sin.
I also do question the need for us to fully understand the hierarchy of authority in the Godhead. Why would it be important? The only thing that I can think of off hand is that I believe that it could be relevant when it comes to "who we give credit to, and for what we give them credit for......for ex: we can give thanks to God(the Father) for sacrificing His Son and we can give thanks to Jesus for doing the will of the Father. We can thank Jesus for imparting unto us the Holy Ghost and we can thank the Father for giving the promise of the Holy Ghost to Jesus after His exaltation.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Found in Him
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We know what the bible says about authority, power and the dominion of the kingdom. Personally I feel how God delegates this authority within The Godhead is really none of our business other than what is written. That sounds rude I know. I am a rather bold personality at times. (I do realize this)
What I do argue on this board is any statement that one member is less than the other. I feel that steals from God. Not you oneinchrist, but anyone that does it.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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oneinchrist
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Found in Him,
I agree that God is One.
Do you agree that there is a hierarchy of authority in the persons of the Godhead? yes or no.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Found in Him
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oneinchrist...
1. Who Exalted Christ?
Philippians 2
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
2. Who has all Authority until the end?
Matt 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
3. Who is The Bridegroom? The Father always sent the Son for His bride when the chamber or "home" was complete.
Matt 24
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
GOD is ONE GOD.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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oneinchrist
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Betty,
My concern is that there is balance in the claim that "Jesus is God". Yes, Jesus is God in the sense of His deity(divinity, eternal Sonship), but not in the sense that He gave Himself the honor of the Melchizidek priesthood and in the sense that He gave Himself the highest exalted position that exists.....the Fathers right Hand
I would like to probe into this discussion of "authority" a little deeper. In the claim that there is no hierarchy of authority in heaven, are we also to assume that the Holy Ghost(3rd person of the trinity)is not subject to Jesus? In other words, Jesus never commands Him to do anything.
Oh, ya, another question.........When Jesus returns does He return at a time that He chooses?, or does He return at the time the Father appoints?.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Betty Louise
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Jesus is part of the Godhead. For Him to exalt Himself, would be like one of your arms demanding to be superior to the rest of your body. In God there is no sin. Jesus cannot steal. God Himself said no one can come to the Father except through Jesus Christ. God and Jesus are not at war against each other they are one in spirit and in truth.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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oneinchrist
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........So long as none of you go as far to say that Jesus exalted Himself to the right hand of God the Father.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Betty Louise
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Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Good post FoundInHim.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Found in Him
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JESUS THE MESSIAH WOULD BE GOD HIMSELF
"I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.” (Isaiah 43:11)
Not only this verse, but the entire Old Testament makes it very clear that God alone is the One who saves us from the judgment of sin. He alone is our Savior.
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me the One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting.” (Micah 5:2)
Here we learn Jesus is an eternal Being.
Behold, the days are coming," says the LORD, That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; A King shall reign and prosper, And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell safely; Now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS” (Jeremiah 23:5-6)
And here the Jesus is given an exalted title -- “The Lord Our Righteousness” -- and He executes judgment and righteousness in the earth. These are two things only God can do. “Surely He is God who judges in the earth." (Psalm 58:11)
"The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool." (Psalm 110:1)
“Sit at my right hand” is a term that speaks of equality. But God has said there is no one like Him or beside Him – “there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; there is none besides Me.” (Isaiah 45:21) So who is this sitting at His right hand? It is Jesus Christ, God the Son as we’ll discover in this next verse.
Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, if you know? (Proverb 30:40)
Here in the middle of the Old Testament we learn that God has a Son.
"I will return again to My place till they acknowledge their offense. Then they will seek My face. In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me." ( Hosea 5:15)
God’s place is heaven (“Heaven is His throne” the Psalm says). To return to His place He must have first left it.
"Behold, I send My messenger, and he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming," Says the LORD of hosts.” (Malachi 3:1)
This verse identifies the Messenger as “the Lord” who visits “His” temple. The Old Testament is certainly clear that only God is to be worshiped.
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens. When I call to them, They stand up together.
Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me.
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: "I am the LORD your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go.” (Isaiah 48:12,16-17)
These verses are an absolute goldmine of information! Look at what they tell us:
1) The first verse clearly identifies the speaker as God
2) He tells us that God and the Holy Spirit have sent Him (Here is the Trinity in the Old Testament)
3) He tells us that He, God, is the Redeemer and the Holy One of Israel
So from these passages we can conclude that JESUS Messiah is God, the Redeemer, and further more He is a member the Trinity.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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