|
Author
|
Topic: Maranatha
|
scythewieldor
unregistered
|
posted
Dear Michael Harrison,
Cynicism....
From God's perspective, cynicism is being convinced that one must choose the lesser of two evils because God couldn't, possibly, be able to save us if we choose, simply, to be obedient.
quote:
De 30:1 ¶ And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.
9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:
10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
11 ¶ For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
De 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Does this pertain to the "non-Israelite" that many believe the converts from among the gentiles may be?
quote:
Ro 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Notice that Paul quotes the promise to Israel as if it pertained to the Romans.
Notice, also, that the promise included gathering "thine" that may be driven to the outmost part of heaven. The "thine" is second person, singular looking forward to the only Jew ever to inherit the promises being, there, made: Jesus Christ, Himself.
quote:
Mt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1Co 15:51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
And, how about that circumcised heart thing that God promised Israel?
quote:
Ro 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
The heart of Jesus was circumcised. It is the circumcision of Christ by which I am circumcised.
I shall, therefore, choose life.
quote:
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
IP: Logged | 
|
|
scythewieldor
unregistered
|
posted
Dear Believers,
quote:
Ps 19:7 ¶ The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
For each of us, it is necessary to have a personal relationship with God. A personal relationship with God is enjoyed according to the acceptance of the facts that it is impossible for God to lie, and that it is possible to know the Father.
Do you believe that God is intelligent enough to say what He means in a way that children can learn it?
quote:
Mt 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Lu 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Do you believe that God repented of the things that He had written in His Book?
quote:
Nu 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
1Sa 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Do you believe that God was unable to keep a clear witness of His intentions?
quote:
Ps 50:16 ¶ But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare my statutes, or that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth?
17 Seeing thou hatest instruction, and castest my words behind thee.
18 When thou sawest a thief, then thou consentedst with him, and hast been partaker with adulterers.
19 Thou givest thy mouth to evil, and thy tongue frameth deceit.
20 Thou sittest and speakest against thy brother; thou slanderest thine own mother’s son.
21 These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes.
22 Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Faith, in fact, is defined by the word of God.
Here is a story of a man who heard from God, and, afterwards, let another preacher change his mind.
quote:
1Ki 13:1 ¶ And, behold, there came a man of God out of Judah by the word of the LORD unto Bethel: and Jeroboam stood by the altar to burn incense.
2 And he cried against the altar in the word of the LORD, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the LORD; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men’s bones shall be burnt upon thee.
3 And he gave a sign the same day, saying, This is the sign which the LORD hath spoken; Behold, the altar shall be rent, and the ashes that are upon it shall be poured out.
4 And it came to pass, when king Jeroboam heard the saying of the man of God, which had cried against the altar in Bethel, that he put forth his hand from the altar, saying, Lay hold on him. And his hand, which he put forth against him, dried up, so that he could not pull it in again to him.
5 The altar also was rent, and the ashes poured out from the altar, according to the sign which the man of God had given by the word of the LORD.
6 And the king answered and said unto the man of God, Intreat now the face of the LORD thy God, and pray for me, that my hand may be restored me again. And the man of God besought the LORD, and the king’s hand was restored him again, and became as it was before.
7 And the king said unto the man of God, Come home with me, and refresh thyself, and I will give thee a reward.
8 And the man of God said unto the king, If thou wilt give me half thine house, I will not go in with thee, neither will I eat bread nor drink water in this place:
9 For so was it charged me by the word of the LORD, saying, Eat no bread, nor drink water, nor turn again by the same way that thou camest.
10 So he went another way, and returned not by the way that he came to Bethel.
11 ¶ Now there dwelt an old prophet in Bethel; and his sons came and told him all the works that the man of God had done that day in Bethel: the words which he had spoken unto the king, them they told also to their father.
12 And their father said unto them, What way went he? For his sons had seen what way the man of God went, which came from Judah.
13 And he said unto his sons, Saddle me the *** . So they saddled him the *** : and he rode thereon,
14 And went after the man of God, and found him sitting under an oak: and he said unto him, Art thou the man of God that camest from Judah? And he said, I am.
15 Then he said unto him, Come home with me, and eat bread.
16 And he said, I may not return with thee, nor go in with thee: neither will I eat bread nor drink water with thee in this place:
17 For it was said to me by the word of the LORD, Thou shalt eat no bread nor drink water there, nor turn again to go by the way that thou camest.
18 He said unto him, I am a prophet also as thou art; and an angel spake unto me by the word of the LORD, saying, Bring him back with thee into thine house, that he may eat bread and drink water. But he lied unto him.
19 So he went back with him, and did eat bread in his house, and drank water.
20 And it came to pass, as they sat at the table, that the word of the LORD came unto the prophet that brought him back:
21 And he cried unto the man of God that came from Judah, saying, Thus saith the LORD, Forasmuch as thou hast disobeyed the mouth of the LORD, and hast not kept the commandment which the LORD thy God commanded thee,
22 But camest back, and hast eaten bread and drunk water in the place, of the which the LORD did say to thee, Eat no bread, and drink no water; thy carcase shall not come unto the sepulchre of thy fathers.
23 ¶ And it came to pass, after he had eaten bread, and after he had drunk, that he saddled for him the *** , to wit, for the prophet whom he had brought back.
24 And when he was gone, a lion met him by the way, and slew him: and his carcase was cast in the way, and the *** stood by it, the lion also stood by the carcase.
25 And, behold, men passed by, and saw the carcase cast in the way, and the lion standing by the carcase: and they came and told it in the city where the old prophet dwelt.
26 And when the prophet that brought him back from the way heard thereof, he said, It is the man of God, who was disobedient unto the word of the LORD: therefore the LORD hath delivered him unto the lion, which hath torn him, and slain him, according to the word of the LORD, which he spake unto him.
27 And he spake to his sons, saying, Saddle me the *** . And they saddled him.
28 And he went and found his carcase cast in the way, and the *** and the lion standing by the carcase: the lion had not eaten the carcase, nor torn the *** .
If any of you have read the Bible through (especially the words of Jesus), found some testimony or commandment from God there, and, then, let some preacher talk you out of the word of God, you have denied lLife to yourself.
I pray that I will not let men talk me out of the the spiritually discerned Word of God with soulically arranged excuses for doubting God.
IP: Logged |
|
|
scythewieldor
unregistered
|
posted
Dear WildB,
You do not know Jesus well.
quote:
Mr 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
If the Lord says, "Watch" to all, then all are watchmen.
You are a thief. You have come in not using the the door, Jesus Christ, whose name is called The Word of God.
You are like one of the birds that eats the seed which is the Word of God.
You give your own words, or the words of men who are not the Bread of God which "cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world".
You are an Elymas.
IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by scythewieldor:
Dear Believers,
This post offers another model for interpreting a passage with which we are, all, familiar. Please be patient with me for, if I am right, I must share the warning, or your blood will be required of me. If I am wrong, I do pray that the Spirit will lead me into all Truth.
The last post I made was shortened because the warning concerning a great delusion takes so much space.
Remember that I brought out that the testimony of the Lord warns His servant. In 2 Thessalonians, the Lord's testimony warns us about the delusion that comes before Jesus is revealed.
quote:
2Th 2:1 ¶ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 ¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Jesus will be revealed in His time. But, before that, there will be a falling away and the man of sin (the son of perdition) shall be revealed.
I believe that this passage says that, before Jesus will be revealed, one that opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called god and that is worshipped will show himself that he is God. He will even sit as if he were God in the temple of God.
Now, we know that the prophets say some things will happen concerning a temple and a prince. I interpret those prophecies literally, but not quite the same way as others: the Jews are going to build a temple in Jerusalem.
However, we know that we are the Temple of God.
quote:
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
He 8:1 ¶ Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6 ¶ But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Since the example and shadow of heavenly things which, before, pertained to the house of Judah and the house of Israel have decayed, waxed old, and vanished, any temple built by the Jews is just a facsimile- just like the first and second temples. Only, this third one will oppose God's interest, exaltation, and worship since the High Priesthood of Jesus is the more excellent ministry established by God.
The third Jewish temple will be a delusion (maybe, even, the synagogue of Satan), and many will fall away because of it.
In fact, this deception may have been well prepared by Muslims with a blocked-up "Eastern Gate" through which a false messiah will come. Under that gate in the wall of Jerusalem is another gate found by archeologist James Fleming, a short report of which can be found in a book by William P. Beck: DISCOVERING JESUS IN THE OLD TESTAMENT.
It looks like a strong deceiver will come through the gate that is visible at this time in order to fool the people who are looking for the Prince who will come through the gate beneath it- the one through which our Lord passed.
I grew up with dispensationalism. I, probably, already know how you have been taught to interpret these things with a rapture (I do believe in the harpazo) and THE TWO BABYLONS and all. However, many will perish because they received not the love of the Truth.
The Truth said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
In other words, it looks like there will be whole nations of people who will be deceived and come against the children of Israel and Judah (who have faith in King Jesus) on behalf of a false messiah with war in mind.
The Lord will wipe them out with His coming.
Your not a watchman!
You can blabber all you wan't
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
scythewieldor
unregistered
|
posted
Dear Believers,
This post offers another model for interpreting a passage with which we are, all, familiar. Please be patient with me for, if I am right, I must share the warning, or your blood will be required of me. If I am wrong, I do pray that the Spirit will lead me into all Truth.
The last post I made was shortened because the warning concerning a great delusion takes so much space.
Remember that I brought out that the testimony of the Lord warns His servant. In 2 Thessalonians, the Lord's testimony warns us about the delusion that comes before Jesus is revealed.
quote:
2Th 2:1 ¶ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 ¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Jesus will be revealed in His time. But, before that, there will be a falling away and the man of sin (the son of perdition) shall be revealed.
I believe that this passage says that, before Jesus will be revealed, one that opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called god and that is worshipped will show himself that he is God. He will even sit as if he were God in the temple of God.
Now, we know that the prophets say some things will happen concerning a temple and a prince. I interpret those prophecies literally, but not quite the same way as others: the Jews are going to build a temple in Jerusalem.
However, we know that we are the Temple of God.
quote:
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
He 8:1 ¶ Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6 ¶ But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Since the example and shadow of heavenly things which, before, pertained to the house of Judah and the house of Israel have decayed, waxed old, and vanished, any temple built by the Jews is just a facsimile- just like the first and second temples. Only, this third one will oppose God's interest, exaltation, and worship since the High Priesthood of Jesus is the more excellent ministry established by God.
The third Jewish temple will be a delusion (maybe, even, the synagogue of Satan), and many will fall away because of it.
In fact, this deception may have been well prepared by Muslims with a blocked-up "Eastern Gate" through which a false messiah will come. Under that gate in the wall of Jerusalem is another gate found by archeologist James Fleming, a short report of which can be found in a book by William P. Beck: DISCOVERING JESUS IN THE OLD TESTAMENT.
It looks like a strong deceiver will come through the gate that is visible at this time in order to fool the people who are looking for the Prince who will come through the gate beneath it- the one through which our Lord passed.
I grew up with dispensationalism. I, probably, already know how you have been taught to interpret these things with a rapture (I do believe in the harpazo) and THE TWO BABYLONS and all. However, many will perish because they received not the love of the Truth.
The Truth said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
In other words, it looks like there will be whole nations of people who will be deceived and come against the children of Israel and Judah (who have faith in King Jesus) on behalf of a false messiah with war in mind.
The Lord will wipe them out with His coming.
IP: Logged |
|
|
scythewieldor
unregistered
|
posted
Dear Eden, Michael Harrison, and other Believers,
quote:
Ps 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
The testimony of the Lord makes the simple wise. Simple means not complicated with the doubts presented by the soulical mind.
Every word of God has life for us. His testimony makes us wise. About that testimony (along with the other things of the Lord in The Nineteenth Psalm), it is written thus:
quote:
Ps 19:11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
How could an understanding of Israel which differs from God's leave us as unwarned? Well, for one, eschatology is written around Israel and Judah. If you get Israel wrong, you get the last days wrong.
The Nineteenth Psalm is, itself, a testimony of the Lord. If you doubt this testimony of the Lord, you will have a hard time with many others.
What is His testimony about predestination?
quote:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
So, the Lord had a counsel concerning the adoption of children. We know that that counsel included the Israelites of the nation of Judah.
quote:
Ro 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Look at others that were included in the Lord's counsel concerning adoption.
quote:
Jer 3:18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.
19 But I said, How shall I put thee among the children, and give thee a pleasant land, a goodly heritage of the hosts of nations? and I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from me.
Predestination is followed by calling.
quote:
Ro 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Look at the calling of Israel while Judah was still in Zion.
quote:
Jer 3:12 ¶ Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.
13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.
14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
(This, of course, is just a few verses before the one that declares the return from the north of the house of Israel and the house of Judah.)
Simply put, if you get Judah mixed up with Israel, your interpretation of prophecy leaves you open to a delusion.
IP: Logged |
|
|
yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738
|
posted
Eden, Only Yahweh God knows for sure, but surely all believers, whatever their supposed backgrounds, agree they ultimately will be united with all the "Believing" people of Israel.
Moreover, all Believers will enter the New Jerusalem, which City has only 12 gates, named after the 12 tribes of Israel! Thus, all will have to go thru one of those gates. For there are no other entrances (Rev 21:12 Ez 48:30-34)
Thus, ALL believers ultimately will belong to one of Israels tribes. Because the One God has but One people!
Shalom
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
Ja, das ist gut, Edenstein ze Ephraimite, von ze Bilhah or ze Zilpah, for sure.
IP: Logged |
|
|
yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738
|
posted
Lol, Well, Oy Vey Brother Edenstien, love ya brother! Your too funny! Be blessed!
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
yahsway and scythewieldor, all I can say then is, Oy, Oy, Oy.
love, Edenstein
IP: Logged |
|
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
scythewieldor, going back to the top of the post, FWIW, I follow you. And I truly value this quote:
![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif) quote:
Dear Eden,
Trying to understand the Bible from a natural/soulical mind is usually a path to cynicism.
That was rewarding, for I have often tried to find the way to say that, but it came out differently.
But your perspective is unusual. Because the predestination thing is a mystery. And, when one simply 'accepts' it as related, it seems to become arrogance. It seems to resist humility. But we know that the words are often filtered upon entry into the hearer, such that the heart does not understand them according to the Spirit. That is the condition of the faithful. For when one is still in the wilderness, though he or she is following, the understanding is not fruitful. And once again, you said it well when you said:
quote:
Trying to understand the Bible from a natural/soulical mind is usually a path to cynicism.
Not only! It is a way for misinterpretation to flourish. And it does.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738
|
posted
Eden, the Ephramites mixed and intermarried with the different Nations that were already established on the earth, hence any such "facial features"
Ephramites were scattered upon the face of the whole earth.
By not accurately percieiving the "mystery of the Gentiles", and the "melo hagoyim"/ fullness of the Gentiles promised to Ephraim, the Church ill-defines the recipients of Gods great plan of salvation.
Why did Yeshua bid His apostles to go to the Nations, or Gentiles?
In the Old Covenant, God scattered the sheep of Ephraim among the Nations(Gentiles), and in the New Covenant, the apostles go forth to the Nations (Gentiles) to gather those scattered sheep.
Yeshua sent them to the Nations (Gentiles) because that is where they were scattered. And from there, He said He would gather them.
By not emphasizing this truth, the Church puts an incorrect emphasis on Gods main objective, which is to save the scattered sheep of "Israel"
And "whosoever will" hear and accept this message of grace are His lost sheep.
Joseph, the Father of Ephraim, was given a coat of "many colours" Colours, or pac (pas), comes from a word that means palm of the hand or sole of the foot.
By using this word, the Father paints a prophetic picture of Joseph as one having a mantle of many colours, meaning he would father many shades of people.
Thus, the descendants of Joseph (and of Judah) are realistically everywhere and in every nation (Amos 9:9). They likely are every skin shade and hue known to man.
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
Dear scythewieldor and yahsway, I agree that God will call both the house of Israel-Ephraim and the house of Judah to Himself and make them one stick again.
But after all that has been said so far, I think it VERY UNLIKELY that the descendants of Jacob-Bilhah and the descendants of Jacob-Zilpah somehow:
Became South Korean Christians with Korean-Asian facial features.
Or somehow became black African Christians, with black african facial features.
Or somehow became Polynesian Christians with polynesian facial features ...
in a mere 3,450 years (from about 1,450 B.C. to 2000 A.D., let's say), all of the Jacob-Bilhah and Jacob-Zilpah facial features were able to transform into South Korean facial features and black African facial features and into polynesian facial features.
Without getting in Darwinism, that is way too short a time for such facial transformation to take place in just 3,450 years.
And to me, that is the WEAKEST part of your hypothesis, scythewieldor and yahsway.
And of course Cornelius and all his relatives and friends just "happened to be Ephraimites" too when Peter preached the gospel to them.
But why would Peter say at Cornelius that "I see that God is no respector of persons" if Peter KNEW that he was "looking for Ephraimites among the Gentiles"?
In fact, that is an interesting question for you, scythewieldor and yahsway, "Did Paul who went to preach to the uncircumcision and did Peter who went to preach to the circumcision", when they preached to the Gentiles, DID PAUL AND PETER KNEW THAT THEY WERE ONLY LOOKING FOR EPHRAIMITES AMONG THE GENTILES, or where they completely unaware of it?
Acts 10
34 Then Peter opened his mouth {at Cornelius}, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons.
35 But in every nation he who fears Him and works righteousness, is accepted with Him.
Acts 2
21 And it shall come to pass, that WHOSOEVER shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
John 10:9
I am the door: by Me, if ANY MAN enters in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Lastly, scythewieldor, I'm genuinely interested in this subject; I'm not bumping it, so do not flatter yourself overmuch. ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
The Beauty of Holiness777
Advanced Member
Member # 7380
|
posted
Eden your questions are well justified by scripture.
Seems we have discussed this same Predestination on another thread.
When some speak of predestination in the bible they talk themselves sometimes into errors. They fail to see the whole truth on the subject because they have chosen scriptures and terms that are going to stand as answers to their opinions or conclusions.
Nevertheless, we must look at the biblical information as a whole; and not try to dissect it to prove a point causing errors and some to err. When those who read the Holy Scripture as a whole they too will see when it comes to predestination "It is not God's Will that any shall perish but that all come to repentance and be saved.
As many has stated before God already knows that all will not be saved from the Old Testament to the New Testament; but He is such a just God He will give all a chance. If we really have His Spirit as some of us say we do we will stop trying to insert Calvinism in the True Gospel, because calvinsim is not in God's Word.
The Old Testament was a shadow of things to come and it contained prophecy of things to come in the New Testament.
Hebrews 10;
For the law having a shadow of things to come, and not the very image of things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year after year continually make (the comers) thereunto perfect.
The "Heirs of the Promise" are made up of Jews and Gentiles, a multitude of guilty sinners.
Oh yes in the beginning of the Old Testament God did give the promise to Abraham and his seed (Temporal). But after the death of Jesus Christ (The Spiritual Seed) it was and is giving to "Whosoever will"
For it is written and God is not a man that He should lie, nor the son of man that He shall repent.
And His Word will not come back VOID, if God says it's not His Will that any shall perish, that's exactly what He meant.
--------------------
In God I'am Complete.
I am a "Spiritual Being" living in a physical body.
{Prayer - a force that reaches people and places when we can't}
Posts: 192 | From: God's Universe | Registered: Sep 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
scythewieldor
unregistered
|
posted
Dear Believers,
For those who do not know what 'birthright' is: When a man has sons, the birthright usually goes to the oldest. That means younger sons have to move away from the land of the father.
The Birthright that Jacob took from Esau was, actually, the land that God had promised to Abraham. If you will remember, though Abraham had other sons, none of them could stay in the land with the son of promise.
Isaac got the birthright.
The different regions of Europe were the birthrights of the indigenous peoples. When the Christians (the seed of Abraham) came, they took the birthright away gathering from those indigenous peoples more of the seed of Abraham by the preaching of the Word.
The same happened in Africa, the Americas, and Asia.
The only place it didn't happen was Asia Minor which, of course, was a place where the Holy Spirit forbade Paul to preach the Word. That place has been a host to the Muslims which is the religion of Ishmael concerning whom Abraham asked God to bless.
That last paragraph is full of things I do not understand very well; coincidences, maybe.
IP: Logged |
|
|
yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738
|
posted
Eden, Yes, this is what i believe (What you posted)
I know that Paul quotes Hosea in Romans 9:24-26 concerning the Gentiles/Nations where Ephraim had been scattered.
Peter also.
Also, when I look at John 11 48-well, lets look
"If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him (Yeshua), and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.."
And one of them, Ciaphas, being high priest that year said to them, "You know nothing at all, nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation (Judah) should persih."
Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Yeshua would die for the Nation(Judah),
and NOT for that Nation only, BUT also that He would gather together in one the Children of God who were Scattered abroad(Gentile Ephraim).
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
scythewieldor
unregistered
|
posted
Dear Eden,
I do not see any way to interpret the things that I wrote in the way you set forth. If I wrote that Ephraimite-led Israel was scattered (and I did) among the nations (I wrote that, too), then there is no way to interpret that as they stayed together.
(I surmise that you're just helping keep the topic bumped up. I'm very flattered.)
Jacob displaced Esau by taking his birthright.
As the Israelites which had been, when they were in Zion, Ephraimite-led entered into other countries, they continued to manifest the reproductive blessing that was upon them even while they were in Egypt.
There numbers increased. They had favor. And, not even remembering that they had been the Lord's people, they took the Birthright of the indigenous peoples of the nations into which they were scattered.
We see the same thing when men move a plant or an insect or a snake or a fish or a rodent into new lands. Some unique character of that species combined with the lack of a natural predator or other kulling influence allows that thing to replace the indigenous species.
Israel was scattered into the nations with the blessing of Abraham. The blessing worked even though they didn't know it.
I do not believe that people looked alike, back then.
The Bible says that the sons of god took the daughters of Adam and made wives of them.
quote:
Ge 6:1 ¶ And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 ¶ And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 ¶ There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
For orientation concerning the use of the phrase, "sons of God", remember Job...
quote:
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
That scenario compares well with another voice from the Old Testament.
quote:
1 Ki 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
2 Chr 18:18 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.
19 And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.
20 Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?
21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.
22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.
The "morning stars" of Job and "host of heaven" in 1 Kings and 2 Chronicles are comparable. The sons of God coming before the Lord in Job looks like the host of heaven in the presence of the Lord sitting upon His throne in the other two citations.
Satan, in Job, looks so much like the lying spirit in the other two passages.
Now, Jesus was, also, called "the Son of God". So was Adam. What is the characteristic that makes all these similar?
quote:
He 7:1 ¶ For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
Melchisedec was made like the Son of God because it was as if he was without father, without mother, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life.
That is a description of the first habitation of angels. (Adam is different in the "beginning of days" and "end of life" things. Howbeit, end of life came as a choice of his own.)
I believe that Jude referred to this in this way:
quote:
Jude 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jude starts out by reminding us that certain men have crept in unawares which have turned the grace of God into lasciviousness. He compares them to the angels which kept not their first estate. In turn, he compares the judgement of those angels to the judgement on Sodom and Gomorrha which "in like manner" gave themselves over to fornication and going after strange flesh.
I believe the sons of God were angels which left their first habitation and went after the strange flesh of the daughters of Adam. Their offspring were giants, or something identifiably different from Adamic humanity, in the land when the angels produced offspring with the daughters of Adam. The genetic corruption was identifiable for years after that.
That is why we read about Noah...
quote:
Ge 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
The same is not said of Noah's wife (though it may have been true), or of his sons, or of his sons wives.
Today, with the technology that we have for slicing and dicing genes, we are able to change the appearance of mankind, again. That could be violence against the kosmos, the Lord God, and the Lord Jesus Christ as much as when the angels left their first estate and took the daughters of Adam for wives.
However, as long as people refuse to acknowlege their calling, the evil men which creep around unawares will meet no resistance.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
scythewieldor wrote to Eden quote:
Ephraim became nations through multiplication, as well.
Further, Ephraim/Israel was scattered into all the nations populated by the other descendants of Noah.
The blessing that was on Ephraim in Zion continued to be on him in the other nations.
The Ephraim Israelites displaced, or are displacing, the other peoples just like Jacob displaced Esau.
It was my understanding that Hosea (I think) said that "Ephraim would be MIXED among the nations" to the point where "Ephraim would no longer know that he was an Ephraimite".
The way you wrote your quote makes it seem as if Ephraim displaced an entire nation, which wouldn't be "mixed in among the nations", would it?
Because if the Ephraimites STAYED TOGETHER to the point that they DISPLACED nations or peoples, then they would have also HAD SOMETHING to identify them as a GROUP of identical heritage. So I think it was more a matter of "mixing" than "displacing".
And as for "Jacob displacing Esau", how did Jacob do that? Esau had his own kingdom on Mt. Seir, so how did Jacob "displace" Esau?
And lastly, you said quote:
Classical emigration patterns show that people who look alike and speak the same language gather for mutual support. They start to govern themselves according to their ethics and become ethnic/national.
Uh, back then before people moved around as much as they do now, back then people looked alike and spoke the same language because they were from the same tribe, and not because of some "ethics" that they all shared.
They governed together and became a nation together because they were "ethnically related", that is, they were of the same tribe.
By contrast, "ethics" refers more to "integrity" and "honesty" and things like that, right?
love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
yahsway wrote to Eden quote:
Eden, please, my husband is a Jewish believer, where would you get the idea that I would think that Yahweh is not calling the Jew to Him?
You probably misunderstood. I know that God will gather and grant eternal life to the Jews from Israel-Judah also.
I was asking you, or scythewieldor, if right now God is ONLY calling Ephraimites from the house of Israel-Ephraim to Himself among the nations, and whether God will deal with the Jews of Israel-Judah separately, perhaps when Jesus comes again.
My question to you is: You are saying that the ONLY people who are being saved in this dispensation (since Jesus) are ALL Ephraimites from the house of Israel-Ephraim and NO ONE else is being saved right now?
You also said: quote:
I believe Ephraim/Isral are the ekklesia. Judah/Israel are the Jewish people.
Together they make up ALL Israel.
So you DO believe that the ekklesia (the called out ones, or the church) are ONLY Ephraimites and NO ONE else is being saved right now, correct?
And you also said quote:
I believe that those who answer the call of Yeshua, who are chosen by Him, His lost sheep, theuout all the nations, whom we call Gentiles, are Ephramites.
So you are NOT saying that ALL Gentiles are Ephraimites, but that those people who answer the call of Jesus among the Gentiles are all Ephraimites, right?
And you are basing this mostly on the idea that in Hosea (I think) it said that Israel-Ephraim would "become mixed in the nations to the extent that Israel-Ephraim no longer know they are from Israel-Ephraim and they all now act and look like Gentiles in general", right?
And when Paul says, "henceforth I turn to the Gentiles", Paul ONLY had Ephraimites in mind and Paul KNEW that anyone among the Gentiles who accepted Jesus HAD TO BE an Ephraimite?
Thanks, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738
|
posted
Eden, please, my husband is a Jewish believer, where would you get the idea that I would think that Yahweh is not calling the Jew to Him?
I am speaking of Ephraim and who i believe he represents in this "dispensation" if thats what you want to call it.
Father God promises to fully reunite Israel in the last days. He describes both the reunion and participants.
"Then the jealousy of Ephraim will depart, and those who are hostile to Judah will be cut off; Ephraim will not be envious of Judah, nor will Judah harass Ephraim. Together will they invade the western borders of the philistines; side by side shall they plunder the tribes of the east; in union will they possess Edom and Moab and make the sons of Ammon (Jordon) their subjects" (Is 11:11-14)
I believe Ephraim/Isral are the ekklesia
Judah/Israel are the Jewish people
Togethere they make up ALL Israel
For Paul says
"For I do not desire brethern that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel(Judah/Israel)until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
"And so ALL Israel (Both Houses) will be saved....
I believe that those who answer the call of Yeshua, who are chosen by Him, His lost sheep, theuout all the nations, whom we call Gentiles are Ephramites.
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
scythewieldor
unregistered
|
posted
Dear Eden,
On your recent posts: I think you must have gotten someone else's post confused with mine. I never read the New Ignorant Version.
Eden, I am sorry that the way I write leaves me hard to understand. That is why I use so much scripture.
This is simple: As far as I know, everyone that is descended from Jacob is eligible for adoption into God's family- whether they be children of Israel or children of Judah.
Did you get the answers to the two-fold questions I asked you? Once you tell me your answers, I will know whether you would rather hear the Lord or men.
Japhethites have to live somewhere. Shemites have to live somwhere. Hamites have to live somewhere.
Classical emigration patterns show that people who look alike and speak the same language gather for mutual support. They start to govern themselves according to their ethics and become ethnic/national.
The descendants of Noah separated into nations according to certain shared characterisics.
Abraham became the father of nations through the multiplcation of his seed.
Ephraim became nations through multiplication, as well.
Further, Ephraim/Israel was scattered into all the nations populated by the other descendants of Noah. The blessing that was on Ephraim in Zion continued to be on him in the other nations.
The Ephraim Israelites displaced, or are displacing, the other peoples just like Jacob displaced Esau.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
scythewieldor wrote quote:
Dear Eden,
It seems that you are overlooking one of the things I've written in many places on this board.
The Jews are going to repent and be converted and join us in the New Covenant, becoming Israelites, indeed, in whom is no guile. The very day that they do, Jesus comes back, Jerusalem takes her place again in Jerusalem, and the Lord wipes out the nations that come against us. (Zech. 12)
I know about the house of Israel-Ephraim and the house of Israel-Judah becoming one stick again, etc.
But in 70 A.D. the surviving remnant of Israel-Judah were also sold into the nations. Are you saying that NO ONE from Israel-Judah among the nations is able to accept the gospel because God is ONLY calling the Ephraimites from the house of Israel-Ephraim in this dispensation?
You are NOT including the Jews from Israel-Judah who were also sold into the nations, you are NOT Including those Jews under the term "Ephraimites", are you?
Because only members of the house of Israel-Ephraim are ever called "Ephraimites" in the Bible, are they not?
You also mentioned, "Hosea's people who are not My people" (meaning, members of the house of Israel-Ephraim, right?) and then you say that Paul calls those people mentioned in Hosea, that Paul calls them "GENTILES".
So what about this:
Genesis 10
1 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.
2 The sons of Japheth: Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.
3 And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.
4 And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.
5 [b]By these were the isles of the GENTILES divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.
scythewieldor, are you telling me that the definition of GENTILES, which in Genesis 10 were shown to be JAPHETHITES, are you saying that the definition of GENTILES was later changed to EPHRAIMITES, so that JAPHETHITE GENTILES and EPHRAIMITES now were the same thing, or what are you saying?
love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
hello, scythewieldor, forgive me if I have to deal in pieces about what you wrote quote:
Ephraim represents All Gentile Nations, whether by blood or not.
What does that mean, "Ephraim represents all Gentile nations, whether by blood or not"? I don't get it. What about all the Japhethites and all the Hamites and all the non-Abraham Shemites, are they now "all Ephraimites" or what are you saying? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
You continued quote:
And yes, whosoever will is just that, whosoever will from all tribes and nations of the earth.
What does THAT mean? Does "whosoever" also include, say, Hamites, or are ALL the "whosoevers" who respond to the gospel UNDERNEATH all descended from northern Israel? Or does "whosoever" mean "anybody who wants to, regardless of blood line"?
scythewieldor continued quote:
The New International Version Study Bible says of these aliens who once were not a people:
"In Hosea it is Israel who is not God's people; in Romans it is the Gentiles to whom Paul applies Hosea's words; in 1 Peter the words are applied to both."
So are you saying that to Paul who was from Israel-Judah, in the first century A.D. a "Gentile" ALWAYS meant someone whose forefather was at least at some point "from Israel-Ephraim".
So in your opinion, ALL references to "Gentiles" in the Bible refer to the same people as "Hosea's people who are not My people" (meaning, northern Israel-Ephraim who was divorced by the LORD)?
So what for instance of these references?
Genesis 10:5
By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.
Luke 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Note that the remnant of Israel-Judah is led away captive into the nations, which happened in 70 A.D. when the surviving Jews were sold as slaves into the nations, and THEN the GENTILES trod down Jerusalem UNTIL the time of the GENTILES are fulfilled.
Now we know that after 70 A.D., Jerusalem was in the hands of the Romans (were they all Ephraimites?) and then in the hands of the Islamic Arabians (were they all Ephraimites?) and Jerusalem was in the hands of the Islamic Ottoman Turks of Constantinople (were they all Ephraimites?). Were all these GENTILES who TROD DOWN JERUSALEM really UNDERNEATH ALL Ephraimites?
Or what are you saying, scythewieldor?
love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
scythewieldor
unregistered
|
posted
Dear Eden,
It seems that you are overlooking one of the things I've written in many places on this board.
The Jews are going to repent and be converted and join us in the New Covenant, becoming Israelites, indeed, in whom is no guile. The very day that they do, Jesus comes back, Jerusalem takes her place again in Jerusalem, and the Lord wipes out the nations that come against us. (Zech. 12)
I am the first to say that the adoption and promises pertain to the Jews.
quote:
Ro 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
However, I am also the first to say that they have not obtained mercy.
quote:
Ro 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
They are in the same place, now, that the Ephraim-led portion of Israel was before the ratification of the New Covenant which regenerated the twelve tribe Commonwealth of the Israel of God: they are not God's people.
quote:
Eze 23:32 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou shalt drink of thy sister‘s cup deep and large: thou shalt be laughed to scorn and had in derision; it containeth much.
The Jews which have put their confidence in Christ are Israelites and the people of God as we are- but they are no longer Jews.
What fool would say that Jews could not be saved? All of the twelve apostles were Jews. The faith which established the converts from among the nations was dictated by the apostles and elders at Jerusalem.
However, I understand the problems you are having coming to terms with the things I am showing you. I know that the very first reaction is to expect me to be one of the Jew haters of the so-called White Israelites.
I agree with you that, after the working of the good news in the life of a "whosoever", you can tell one of the elect. Of course, my zero recognition statement concerned the potential converts.
quote:
Ac 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons <4381>:
quote:
4381 proswpolhpthv prosopoleptes pros-o-pol-ape’-tace
from 4383 and 2983; TDNT-6:779,950; n m
AV-respecter of persons 1; 1
1) an acceptor of persons
2) one who discriminates
4383 proswpon prosopon pros’-o-pon
from 4314 and ops (the visage, from 3700); TDNT-6:768,950; n n
AV-face 55, person 7, presence 7, countenance 3, not tr 1, misc 5; 78
1) the face
1a) the front of the human head
1b) countenance, look
1b1) the face so far forth as it is the organ of sight, and by it various movements and changes) the index of the inward thoughts and feelings
1c) the appearance one presents by his wealth or property, his rank or low condition
1c1) outward circumstances, external condition
1c2) used in expressions which denote to regard the person in one’s judgment and treatment of men
2) the outward appearance of inanimate things
God is not one who takes into account the outward appearance of a man.
However, Jesus recognizes the difference between Israelites and dogs.
quote:
Mt 15:21 ¶ Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
Mr 7:24 ¶ And from thence he arose, and went into the borders of Tyre and Sidon, and entered into an house, and would have no man know it: but he could not be hid.
25 For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet:
26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.
27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.
28 And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children’s crumbs.
29 And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter.
30 And when she was come to her house, she found the devil gone out, and her daughter laid upon the bed.
The questions you have to answer for yourself are twofold:, "Is Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever?" and "Did Jesus lie when He said, 'I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel?'".
As I said in another post, it may be that non-Israelite women who submit their mothering capacity for the increase of the seed of Abraham seem to be dealt with according to different rule.
Nevertheless, after the working of the blessing of reproduction on Israel for all this time, I am sure that promise that the seed of Israel would become as the sands of the seashore is fulfilled.
It has been, once before.
quote:
1Ki 4:20 ¶ Judah and Israel were many, as the sand which is by the sea in multitude, eating and drinking, and making merry.
It seems to me that the unwillingness to recognize that one has enjoyed the washing of regeneration in order to repopulate the regenerated twelve tribes of Israel is that one fears emerging as the Holy Nation, and taking the responsiblity as the head rather than the tail, according to the calling of God. Who wants to oppose oppression of every kind in every land by declaring the words of Jesus (which men hate), and, thus, become a blessing to all the families of the earth while becoming persecuted from place to place.
He who endures to the end shall be saved. But there are those who do not produce because of the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and others, because of persecution.
IP: Logged |
|
|
yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738
|
posted
Ezekiel 37 16-28
verse 17 then join them one to another for yourself into one stick, and they will become one stick in your hand.
(refer to verse 16, for verse 17 refers to the house of Judah and the house of Joseph, remember Joseph represents the multitude of goy/goyim/gentiles/Nations)
Hosea 1:11Then the children of Judah and the children of Israel(Joseph/Ephraim) shall be gathered together, and appoint for themselves one head; and they shall come up out of the land for Great is the day of Jezreel!
Romans 9:24-26
Paul says this-
"even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As He says also in Hosea;
"I will call them My people, who were not my people, and her beloved, who was not beloved."
"And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them (Ephraim/House of Joseph, who became the Multitude of nations)You are not my people, There they shall be called sons of the living God."
Peter knew this prophecy as well.
1 Peter 2:1-10
verse 10 "who once were not a people(Remember what God called Ephraim in Hosea? You are LoAmmi, You are Not My People)But are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.
Ephraim represents All Gentile Nations, whether by blood or not.
And yes, whosoever will is just that , whosoever will from all tribes and nations of the earth.
Peter wrote his 1st letter to "Those who reside as aliens" and, he called those aliens, "chosen". "You are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not recieved mercy, but now you have recieved mercy"
The New International Version Study Bible says of these aliens who once were not a people:
"In Hosea it is Israel who is not Gods people; in Romans it is the Gentiles to whom Paul applies Hoseas words; in 1 Peter the words are applied to both."
These words are applied to both. Could it be that they are one and the same people? I think so. For, "When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when He seperated the sons of man, He set the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel" (Duet 32:8)
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
scythewieldor wrote to Eden quote:
Our ability to recognize the elect with our senses and reasonability is what? Zero?
No, our ability to recognize the elect is NOT ZERO. You are one of the elect, I am of the elect, most of the members of this bbs are of the elect, and in the New Testament are the names of hundreds of elect, and in worlwide there are a "few hundred million elect", all of whom can be recognized by our senses and reasonability.
Now, whoever else is going to accept Christ in their lifetime, that I do not know, nor would I know what the percentage of them would be true Ephraimites and what percentage of them would be "whosoevers".
It amazes me that you especially do not directly answer what God had in mind when God said that "He is not a respecter of persons" and that "in every nation who does well, is accepted of Him" and "it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved".
To you, according to God's Word, "a whosoever" MUST be an Ephraimite, right, eventhough God says nothing about Ephraimites in "it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved".
And what about the Jews from Israel-Judah? When Jerusalem was burned and destroyed, some 70,000 Jews were sold and scattered among the nations too.
We know that the Jews were NOT Ephraimites, will the Jews that were sold into the nations as slaves NOT be able to be saved then because they are NOT Ephraimites, as in, "the Jews already had their chance and whoever was saved back then of the Jews was saved, but no more Jews will be saved after 70 A.D."?
Please explain. Thanks, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
scythewieldor
unregistered
|
posted
Dear Eden,
Your treatment of my answer depends, very much, on your attitude towards predestination.
Do you believe that God has chosen the people who will get saved?
Do you believe that God has chosen the people to whom He will give saving faith?
Our ability to recognize the elect with our senses and reasonability is what? Zero?
In that case, our motivation to get the gospel out must have a "whosoever" aspect to it.
Does that mean God isn't sure who will get saved?
What if God has chosen the seed of Abraham to be joint heris with Jesus in the Priesthood of Melchizedek the same way He chose Levites to be joint heirs with Aaron in the priesthood of the Old Covenant?
Why would any one have a problem with that? The work of that priesthood had a good effect for all twelve tribes of Israel, as long as they were not in adultery against God.
Likewise, Abraham's seed which gets adopted into the family of God because of the work of Christ will produce benefits for every family on earth.
The work of the Royal Preisthood is able to access healing for those who are not members of it.
The people of the nations can come to us and get deliverance from demons and oppressive government, as well.
The more we rule, the more the light of God's salvation riches into the earth. The fact is that our calling is a calling of extreme service and sacrifice- doulos stuff.
It is a calling to be hated by the world- martyr stuff.
Who wants that?????
Who wants the faith to give up lands, houses, fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, wives, and their own souls?????
When Jesus and the apostles talk about salvation, they are talking about a redemption of people to live out the servant calling of Israel which has the preservative aspect of salt in a world that desparately wants to rot.
quote:
1Co 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
19 ¶ For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
To be a servant of the Lord is to be dependant upon His faithfulness to say, "Fear not".
quote:
Is 44:1 ¶ Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen:
2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.
3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:
4 And they shall spring up as among the grass, as willows by the water courses.
5 One shall say, I am the LORD’S; and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe with his hand unto the LORD, and surname himself by the name of Israel.
6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.
8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Jer 30:4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
10 ¶ Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
Okay, scythewieldor and yahsway, both of you have "spun a good Zilpah/Bilhah tale" but neither of you has bothered to answer what the meaning is then of "whosoever" in these verses below?
Acts 10
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he who fears Him and works righteousness, is accepted with Him.
And what about this?
Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Most likely I will get the stock answer from you that ALL whosoevers who accept Jesus in every nation are ALL underneath Ephraimites in those nations, and that it only "looks" like they are "whosoever" but in fact only Ephraimites can accept Christ in any nation, so ALL the "whosoevers" are in fact Ephraimites underneath, in "every nation" on earth.
And what about this then?
Acts 10
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons.
love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738
|
posted
Of the mystery of life, scripture reveals that fleshly "life is in the blood" that fathers determine bloodline, and that Yeshua "came" by "water and blood"
Bloodline is accorded to the fathers seed.
Concerning the "bloodline" of "human" Israel, we need to see that, even Yeshuas blood came from His Father, so the bloodline of the sons of Israel is reckoned according to their fathers.
To illustrate this point, 1 kings 10 1-13 we are told the Queen of Sheba having heard of Solomons fame came to visit him.
According to Ethiopian tradition, Sheba (called Makeda) married Solomon and their son Menelik 1 founded the royal dynasty of Ethiopia.
Assuming that Sheba did number among Solomons many wives and that a son was born of this union, and when he was born he looked just like his dark skinned ethiopian mother.
Now realize that this son, regardless of looks, was, like his father, of the tribe of Judah. Taking this concept a bit further, assume this child grew up and married an Ethiopian lady and they had sons, all of whom grew up to marry Ethiopia ladies and to have sons.
And on and on the process goes. And while we are asleep at night, He who has in the past both "opened" and "shut" wombs could have been turning all of Ethiopia into the tribe of Judah!
So, likewise, the descendants of the 12 tribes could be anywhere, everywhere, and we would never know.
To further prove this point, the scripture says that "an east wind" was sent against those of Ephraim. And east winds carry toward the west, which explains why the Father says that in the last days, Ephraim "will come trembling from the west" (Hosea 13:15 11:9-10)
Israelites can be anywhere and can have any and every Ethnic look known to man. So, where and who is of Ephraim and Judah? Only the Father in Heaven can know for certain. As He is the only one who knows for certain who is saved and who is not.
The return of the Prodigal son describes Ephriam to a tee. The older son is Judah.
1. The prodigal went to a foreign land (Amos 7:11)
2. The prodigal lived loosely (Hosea 10:11
3.The prodigal was hungry Amos 8:11
4. The prodigal would have been happy to eat with the pigs (Judah does not touch pork
5. The prodigal came to his senses and began to repent (Jer 31:18-19
6. The Father of the prodigal yearned for His son: Jer 31:19-20
7. When the prodigal returned, the older son was not pleased but angry. and 1st century Jewish leaders were not happy about the return of those once lost among the nations. Instead, they accused Paul of bringing in Greeks into their Temple and so defiling their holy place. (Acts 21:27-31) They walked in the same spirit as their forfathers-
For "the inhabitants of Jerusalem...said(of scattered Ephraim), go far from the Lord; this land has been given us as a possession" (Ez 11:15)
Even in our day, some Jewish believers are not happy about the reappearance of Ephraim. They do not like the idea that the non-Jew might possibly be an equal heir (Gal 4:17)
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
scythewieldor
unregistered
|
posted
Dear Eden,
Trying to understand the Bible from a natural/soulical mind is usually a path to cynicism.
quote:
1Co 12:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
The faithful approach is to ask God if He really meant what He said when He said- so many times- that He was going to scatter the Ephraim-led portion of Israel over the face of the whole earth. Ask Him if He didn't mean, by "face of the whole earth", "face of a continent or two". Ask Him if He didn't exagerrate a little when He said "over every high hill".
Then ask Him if He wasn't just blowing a little smoke when He said He would bring them back and join their children with the children of the Judah-led Israelites under one King in the land He promised Abraham.
When He corrects you, then you can imagine scenarios where the Almighty Sovereign Eternal Omnipotent Omniscient Omnipresent Maker of all things might be able to prove He's not a poser. He's not like the preachers who, because they do not have faith, believe God doesn't work miraculously.
By the way, what I said about Bilhah and Zilpah was a proposal of a way that God could have worked. In that same spirit, I offer this: What if Zilpah or Bilhah had full-blown Asiatic features? Their descendents would have half-blown Asiatic features.
What if some of them decided to go to a sea port and ask where the other people that looked like them were living? We know that there was a whole lot of marine activity.
What if they emigrated and the blessing of reproduction that was on Israel made them able to displace the indigenous populations, where ever they went, like they were doing in Egypt when Pharaoh got scared of their population growth?
quote:
Ex 1:7 And the children of Israel were fruitful, and increased abundantly, and multiplied, and waxed exceeding mighty; and the land was filled with them.
8 ¶ Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph.
9 And he said unto his people, Behold, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we:
10 Come on, let us deal wisely with them; lest they multiply, and it come to pass, that, when there falleth out any war, they join also unto our enemies, and fight against us, and so get them up out of the land.
11 Therefore they did set over them taskmasters to afflict them with their burdens. And they built for Pharaoh treasure cities, Pithom and Raamses.
12 But the more they afflicted them, the more they multiplied and grew. And they were grieved because of the children of Israel.
Do you imagine God finds it hard to fulfil this promise?
quote:
Is 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
7 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.
10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.
11 And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted.
12 Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim.
Look at what Smith's Revised Bible Dictionary says about Sinim.
SINIM
(Mynyo: [Persai: terra australis]), a people noticed in (#Isa xlix:12), as living at the extremity of the known world, either in the south or east. The majority of the early interpreters adopted the former view, but the LXX. in giving Persai favors the latter, and the weight of modern authority is thrown into the same scale, the name being identified by Gesenius, Hitzig, Knobel, and others, with the classical Sinae, the inhabitants of the southern part of China.
Now, if we become agreeable with God that He can do what the prophets say He will do, we need to ask Him if He did what the apostles of Jesus Christ said He did. They said He was keeping all of His promises to the fathers in us.
quote:
2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
The New Covenant, according to the witness carried by the prophets and the apostles, was to the house of Judah and the house of Israel, both of which had been married to the Lord.
When the Lord was killed, the Old Covenant died with Him, and the children of Israel and the children of Judah were free from the Old covenant.The result is that there is no more two nations.
The predestined seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, having been invited to be married to the One who was raised from the dead (Ro 7:1-4), receive the faith to join in the New Covenant.
Now, instead of two nations which had been married to the Lord, there is one nation, Israel, which is the bride of the Lamb.
And written upon the hearts of every one who trusts in the One who is called The Word of God is the Law of God.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
yahsway wrote quote:
Yes, I believe that Believers of Yeshua from the Nations are Ephramites.
Okay, let me ask you then what I asked scythewieldor.
In South Korea, for example, there are millions of bornagain-type Christians, all with Asian facial features, including Asian eyes, Asian nose, and so on.
scythewieldor proposed that these were somehow descendants of Jacob-Bilhah and of Jacob-Zilpah who had somehow "gotten away from the tribes of Israel after the Exodus and after the conquest of Canaan" and "became the believers in South Korea", complete with Asian facial features.
The conquest of Canaan occurred around 1440 B.C., or thus about 3,450 years ago. Now, I believe in natural selection up to a point, but 3,450 years is NOT enough time to cause the descendants of Jacob-Bilhah and of Jacob-Zilpah to acquire "fullblown Asian features".
And one would also have to explain how they even got away to South Korea after the conquest of Canaan, because in the Bible, the sons of Jacob-Bilhah and the sons of Jacob-Zilpah get tribal possessions in the land of Israel.
So the only time that such a migration could have taken place was after the Assyrians had taken northern Israel captive and then they still had to wait til around 630 B.C. or so when the Assyrians were finally defeated by the Medes and Chaldean Babylonians.
So that leaves even less time for the descendants of Bilhah and of Zilpah to "end up looking like South Koreans who after the 1st century A.D. became Christians" IF ALL THE CHRISTIANS IN THE WORLD ARE ACTUALLY EPHRAMITES mixed in among the nations.
Highly unlikely.
love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738
|
posted
You are correct WildB, and as you know, a lot of these same men sell their birthright and go in the way of Esau and some also go in the way of cain.
Gen 48:19
But his father refused and said, "I know my son, I know. He (Manassah, first born of Joseph) shall be great; but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become a Multitude of Nations"
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
scythewieldor
unregistered
|
posted
Dear WildB,
I like that. All men are sinnerites. All, of course except Jesus, the Seed that God gave Judah the absence of which would have left Judah and Jerusalem as Sodom and Gomorrah.
quote:
Is 1:1 ¶ The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
2 ¶ Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.
3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the *** his master’s crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.
4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.
7 Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.
8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.
9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
Ro 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
Re 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Try out this scripture. I know that I have offered it to you before, but you keep refusing the literal interpretation of this plain declaration of prophecy fulfilled.
quote:
Ro 9:25 ¶ As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
When you go back to Hosea, please recognize that the prophet (not me) makes Israel and Judah different nations, and that the prophet (again, not me) makes the not-Judah Israel the ones who shall be called the children of the living God in the lands where it is said of them "not God's people".
When you go back to Isaiah, please recognize that that prophet, also (not me), is talking to the Ephraim-led portion of Israel.
quote:
Is 10:11 Shall I not, as I have done unto Samaria and her idols, so do to Jerusalem and her idols?
12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.
13 For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man:
14 And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.
15 Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.
16 Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire.
17 And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;
18 And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standardbearer fainteth.
19 And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them.
20 ¶ And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.
Samaria was the capitol city of Israel. The Assyrian had taken all of the Israelites under that head into exile, and intended to do the same with Judah. Nevertheless, Isaiah said that what the Assyrian thought he did by his own strength was just the working of the Lord Himself to make Israel trust in Him.
Since Jerusalem was never taken into exile by the Assyrian, the return of Israel could not be a prophecy which applied to Judah.
IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
Yes, I believe that Believers of Yeshua from the Nations are Ephramites.
And here I thought they were All sinnerites.
Please post your scripture.
Here is mine.
Rom.3
[23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom.5
[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738
|
posted
Yes, I believe that Believers of Yeshua from the Nations are Ephramites.
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
scythewieldor
unregistered
|
posted
Dear Eden,
If he won't say "yes", I will.
quote:
Eze 34:6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.
Can you imagine a country on earth that doesn't have a high hill? If there is a country on the face of the earth, an Ephraim-Israelite is helping to populate it.
As hard as it is too accept the literal, Ezekiel wrote this as a done deal no more than about two centuries after they left Zion.
Them boys was a-shufflin' off to Buffalo, I'm tellin ya. But, considering how inventive God could get when He put Jonah in that big fish... Well, I, for one, believe the testimony of the Lord. It is sure.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
yahsway wrote quote:
Eden, Ephramites are the rest of the Nations.
What does that statement mean? You are not saying that ALL the nations of the world are composed of Israel-Ephramites, are you?
love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
scythewieldor
unregistered
|
posted
Dear Eden,
All I can say is that the doctrine of predestination applies to Abraham's seed where ever they may be found. God made promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that He made to no other people.
He can not lie. He will do things for the seed of Abraham because of His promise that He has not promised to do for any other seed.
The only exceptions I can find are the women of the other nations which made themselves available for bringing forth seed unto Abraham- like Ruth and Rahab.
Does that seem unfair, Eden?
quote:
Ro 9:14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
This should make the grace of God toward those vessels afore prepared unto mercy more precious. It should make us more vocal about the greatness of our Saviour, the Hope of Israel.
As we labor to allow His light to be raised in a higher place, we extend the reach of His light into the darkened gentiles. Otherwise, they would have no light.
In Isaiah 8:6, you can find the beginning of a loooong prophecy to Israel/Ephraim as they are going into exile. Many references are made to the coming of Messiah that tell what Hope is in Him for Israel as they wander the darkened regions of the nations/gentiles.
God made the plan- not me. I benefit by faith in His grace- not by blood, or by the will of the flesh, or by the will of men.
I am so fortunate.
IP: Logged |
|
|
yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738
|
posted
Eden, Ephramites are the rest of the Nations.
Thats where they were scattered, swallowed up, mixed their seed, and became as. Read Romans 9 what Pauls says about them.
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
Hi, scythewieldor, when reading Isaiah 54:1, I was interested in the 2 parts that I bolded in your quote of Isaiah 54:1: quote:
Is 54:1 ¶ Sing, O barren, you who did not bear; break forth into singing and cry aloud, you who did not travail with child[/b]: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, says the LORD.
I think it is fair to state from the Old Testament (OT) that the Sing, O barren, you who did not bear refers to "northern Israel-Ephraim" whom God divorced and Israel-Ephraim became mixed in among the nations.
And then the second part that I bolded in Isaiah 54:1 says, "break forth into singing and cry aloud, you who did not travail with child".
The one who "travailed with child" was Israel-Judah to whom God had remained married and Israel-Judah brought forth a "manchild" named Jesus of Bethlehem/Nazareth who was shown to Israel-Judah and who was crucified by Israel-Judah.
So to repeat Isaiah 54:1: quote:
Sing, O barren, you who did not bear; break forth into singing and cry aloud, you who did not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, says the LORD.
So it does seem to me from Isaiah 54:1 that God is definitely saying that the "children of the desolate wife {which can only refer to Israel-Ephraim) shall be more than the children of the married wife", that can only mean that the children of northern Israel-Ephraim will be more than the children of God whom God harvested from the married wife Israel-Judah.
Certainly no other nations seem to be in view in Isaiah 54:1 than the members of these 2 nations of northern Israel-Ephraim and of Israel-Judah.
So scythewieldor, is there NO scripture in the Bible where God also graciously extends salvation to the rest of the nations? What about this verse for instance:
Acts 10
34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he who fears Him and works righteousness, is accepted with Him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all)
And what about this?
Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
So scythewieldor, how do you fit the above scriptures in with what God said in Isaiah 54:1?
love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
scythewieldor
unregistered
|
posted
Dear Believers,
Do you believe this one?
quote:
Mt 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Re 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
In Galatians, Paul says our mother is the desolate woman of Isaiah 54.
quote:
Ga 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Let's learn something about our mother's sons- i.e., us.
quote:
Is 54:1 ¶ Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
Our mother's seed (read that "We") inherit the gentiles. Now, you know that the best interpretation for that "gentiles" word is "nations".
If we have inherited the nations (and we know that we are joint heirs with Jesus to whom all authority in heaven and in earth has been given), the stewardship of those things belongs to us.
Another way to speak of that stewardship is as The Kingdom of God.
We can not steward according to the philosophies and vain conceits of men, for that denies Christ - the wisdom of God and the power of God- the glory that is due to Him. That is not fair regard for Him who bought us with His own precious blood.
Remember the words of the master to the unrighteous steward?
quote:
Lu 16:1 ¶ And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
2 And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward.
Generation after generation of Christians have wasted their Lord's goods having been seduced by the thinking of non-Christians. The stewardship keeps getting passed to others, and the others keep dying in the wilderness without having the Word mixed with faith in their hearts.
quote:
Ro 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Are you saved just to go to heaven, or, are you saved to reign in life with Christ?
quote:
Lu 12:41 ¶ Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
The Moral Majority is like the servant that said "My lord delayeth his coming." Unwilling to wait on the Lord, faithfully dispensing the meat to the house, they made adulterous commitments to a party of idolators. They have delivered the menservants and the maidens to those idolators for heavy labor.
Maranatha.
IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
