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Topic: (Creation.
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TB125
Advanced Member
Member # 2450
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posted
doGon,
You say, quote:
There are thousands of religions, and we have no evidence to believe one is 'more true' above any others, so each of the thousands of religions has the same odds of being true as any of the others.
Who said all those other religions ARE tolerant for the existence of other 'gods'?? Im simply talking about the religions, that is the different beliefs of different deities, not that all of the deities are actually true...There is no more evidence that christianity is true, than Islam is true....All of the evidence amounts to zero, its all about faith...which I have none of...
In this comment you state that you have no "faith", which is apparently why you consider yourself to be an atheist.
On the contrary, I think that you are a person of great faith. It takes a lot of faith to make the following statements:
quote:
There are thousands of religions, all with no evidence over the other for being the truth...
quote:
I can be good because there are good reasons to be good.
You appear to be saying that you are smart enough to know that all of the religions of the world are false and that their claims for their various gods are "empty", and that you can be "good" on your own without any fear of some divine punishment.
I think that it takes a lot of faith to make such statements. But such faith is an arrogant faith in your own intellect and goodness, neither of which you can prove in any rational demonstration!
I assume that you have not investigated all of the evidence and claims of all of the religions of the world, and that you can't even list or demonstrate all of the qualities of being "good" that any rational ethicist or religious philosopher would cite as being important.
Christianity is not like any religion of the world. It is about a personal relationship with God that cannot be earned by any acts of "goodness" or religious rituals but only through faith in one special person, Jesus, who died to offer you and me God's forgiveness for our arrogant rebellion against Him.
You have a lot of "faith", but it is just misdirected. Focus it on Jesus. Read the gospel of John with an open mind to God's revelation in Jesus. God's Spirit can change your thinking and your living in a moment of faithful acceptance of His truth.
You've entered this forum for some reason. Now led God's Spirit lead you to Jesus. Many of us can guide you along the way. You will never be smart enough or "good" enough to come into God's accepting presence on your own.
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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shadowmaker
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posted
Since you re an atheist and believe so strongly, then WHY waste your time coming to a Christian message board? Just curious.
Something to ponder, Christianity is the only religion where God reaches out to the people and not the other way around. The Bible has survived thru centuries complete, not even Shakspeares work has done this.
Before you think I m just another Bible thumper who is brain washed, even I at one time had doubts. But by the Grace of God, I know better now. Its not something I can make you believe or prove to you. Its something that until you experience it, you cant explain it.
You say its a shame I ve lived a fairy tale life if I m wrong. WHY? I still have fun, I still hunt, I still go to races, ride my 4 wheeler, spend time with my friends and family, watch sports, etc. Being a Christian doesnt mean you have to live a dull boring life.
Posts: 272 | Registered: Jul 2004
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TB125
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posted
DoGon,
Try this link to my statement on "Getting into heaven": http://www.christianityetc.org/heaven.php It should work. I think that the closing period probably prevented it from working. Sorry about that. I think that the statement addresses some of your "rational" opinions.
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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doGon
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Kindgo, addressing your first post, I pretty much already answered this with my response to shadowmaker's post, so ill quote what i said in that earlier post...
quote:
If you are right and I am wrong, then yes I have lost a tremendous amount. If I am right, then you dont really lose anything, although I would say it was quite sad that you lived your one and only life for a fairy tale. However, those are not the only two options...What if the muslims are right? We both go to muslim hell, then...Are you sure you want to take that chance? What if Hinduism is right? What if some random african tribe has a religion that is right? There are thousands of religions. The choices arent christianity is true, or atheism is true. There are thousands of choices, so pascal's wager then just completely breaks down...
I would like to address your russian roulette analogy, however. I didn't really understand when you said the gun was fully loaded. It isn't. If it is the case that either christianity is true, or atheism is true, and I am an atheist, then the 'gun' has two chambers (50% chance), one chamber is empty, and one has a bullet in it...This of course means it is a 'better bet' to just believe and have faith in God. This isn't reality though. There are thousands of religions, all with no evidence over the other for being the truth...The gun actually has thousands and thousands of chambers, all with bullets, and one chamber (atheism) that is empty among the thousands. Keep in mind this is assuming the person holding the gun to their head is an atheist.
If the person holding the gun to their head has picked one of those relgions, then the atheist chamber is empty, and the chamber of that particular relgion is also empty...However since there are thousands and thousands of chambers, this only raises the percent of not 'shooting yourself' very very minutely. And then, of course, if you decide to pick a religion, "which one??". I simply believe all of the 'chambers' are empty, and I would rather go through life believeing the obvious truth, however sobering it may be, than deluting myself with a happy fairytale.
I need to go now, so I will address your second post when I get back tonight...
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Kindgo
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posted
doGon
God cannot be proven scientifically; how can we be sure He exists?
Don't worry, I won't use a cliché like, "You can't see the wind, but you can certainly feel the effects of it."
But many of the things we place as most important in our lives--love, joy, happiness, forgiveness, friendship, and beauty--are essentially impossible to prove; however, that makes them no less real.
I cannot look at a friendship under a microscope or place it on scales to measure its value in my life. I can ponder it, feel thankfulness for it, strengthen it, and treasure it. The same is true with my relationship with the Lord.
The question should really be, how can you explain science without the presence of an Almighty God? It amazes me that brilliant people would rather hang their hats on truly unprovable issues like evolution than have faith in God. Scripture has proven itself time and time again. It has never been wrong! How many scientists can claim that?
Name one, just one, scientist who came to earth as the fulfillment of hundreds of prophecies, then died to save mankind from their sins, and then rose from the dead after three days, proving His divinity! There is not one. The Bible has been tested through centuries and has never been disproved. It should be the most revered volume of scientific study that exists
"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works" (Titus 2:11-14).
Notice what the text of Scripture says, "..... has appeared to all men,". Not only has God appeared to all men, but His son Jesus Christ is coming again to rapture (catch up) those who have given their hearts to Him. While we wait for His second coming "we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ".
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Kindgo
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posted
doGon
What if God, Jesus, the prophets, the Jews, and Christians are right and you are wrong?
If there is no afterlife, no Judgment Day, no heaven, and no hell, then God is unjust and each of the above is guilty of being a false witness.
It means that Almighty God couldn’t care less about the fact that a man rapes a woman, then cuts her throat and is never brought to justice.
If you are right, and there is no ultimate justice, you won’t even have the joy of saying, "I told you so."
However, if you are wrong, you will lose your soul and end up eternally damned. You are playing Russian roulette with a fully loaded gun.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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doGon
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Eden, my name has nothing to do with Dagon. doGon = noGod
Eden wrote:
quote:
Read the Bible, DoGon, for the events described therein are able to convince a "rational" person that there really is a Living God who made the sky and earth and stars, who sent Jesus to do miracles like Moses did, to show us that there IS a Living God in heaven who knows everything that is going on here.
And how come none of the other holy books do the same thing for you, while millions others believe them just as strongly as you believe the Bible?
quote:
May you one day become afraid that it is all going to happen just as the Bible predicts
No thanks. I'd prefer not to be forced into something by fear of what will happen if I dont. I don't need to be good because of some giant surveilance camera in the sky. I can be good because there are good reasons to be good. I don't steal from people, not because some invincible man in the sky says not to, but because of empathy, I know what it feels like to have someone steal from me and i didnt like it. I wouldn't want someone to steal from me, so I don't steal from other people, and i trust that people will return the favor of not stealing from me for the same reason, because we know that living in a society where people don't steal is a much better society to live in...
becauseHElives wrote:
quote:
He took and in one moment changed me…
How do you know it was the christian God that changed you? How do you it wasn't Allah, or Thor, or Ra, or Shiva?? How do you know no supernatural being changed you, maybe you're stronger than you think, and you were able to change yourself? how do you know?
TB125 wrote:
quote:
DoGon, your conclusion that "there are thousands of choices" is not a rational statement. It is not a logical conclusion to the relative merits of all of the gods that you note are being professed. Any god that is worthy of being "god" would not tolerate the existence of other "gods".
I don't understand how that was not a rational statement. There are thousands of religions, and we have no evidence to believe one is 'more true' above any others, so each of the thousands of religions has the same odds of being true as any of the others.
Who said all those other religions ARE tolerant for the existence of other 'gods'?? Im simply talking about the religions, that is the different beliefs of different deities, not that all of the deities are actually true...There is no more evidence that christianity is true, than Islam is true....All of the evidence amounts to zero, its all about faith...which I have none of...
Oh, and your link did not work...
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TB125
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posted
DoGon states: quote:
What if the muslims are right? We both go to muslim hell, then...Are you sure you want to take that chance? What if Hinduism is right? What if some random african tribe has a religion that is right? There are thousands of religions. The choices arent christianity is true, or atheism is true. There are thousands of choices,
DoGon, your conclusion that "there are thousands of choices" is not a rational statement. It is not a logical conclusion to the relative merits of all of the gods that you note are being professed. Any god that is worthy of being "god" would not tolerate the existence of other "gods".
I invite you to read a statement that I have written on "Getting into heaven". It makes this point and asks you a series of questions. It doesn't cite a lot of scriptures from the Bible, so you may find it to be worthy of your consideration. It addresses your own rational assumptions. You can find it here: http://christianityetc.org/heaven.php. I'd be interested in your response. You can respond in this forum or by private email. Jesus will reveal himself to you if you let him.
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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becauseHElives
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posted
quote:
How has the christian God revealed himself?
“Come and hear, all that fear Yahweh, and I will declare what He has done for my soul “ Psalms 66:16
He took and in one moment changed me…
Amazing grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.
'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved;
How precious did that grace appear,
The hour I first believed!
Through many dangers, toils and snares,
We have already come;
'Tis grace has brought me safe thus far,
And grace will lead me home.(Lead me home!)
The Lord has promised good to me,
His word my hope secures;
He will my shield and portion be,
As long as life endures.
Yes, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease;
I shall possess, within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.
The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
The sun forbear to shine;
But God, who call'd me here below,
Will be forever mine.
When we've been there ten thousand years,
Bright shining as the sun,
We've no less days to sing God's praise
Than when we'd first begun.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
DoGon, that sounds just like Dagon, the god Dagon of the Hamite Misr Philistines who dwelled in the Gaza strip and always were a thorn in the side of Israel:
1 Samuel 5:2
When the Philistines took the ark of God, they brought it into the house of Dagon, and set it by Dagon.
1 Samuel 5:3
And when they of Ashdod arose early on the morrow, look, Dagon was fallen upon his face to the earth before the ark of the LORD. And they took Dagon, and set him in his place again.
1 Samuel 5:4
But when they arose early on the morrow morning, look, Dagon was fallen upon his face to the ground again before the ark of the LORD; and this time the head of Dagon and both palms of his hands were cut off on the threshold; only the stump of Dagon was left to him.
Dagon believed in the LORD God of Israel. Read the Bible, DoGon, for the events described therein are able to convince a "rational" person that there really is a Living God who made the sky and earth and stars, who sent Jesus to do miracles like Moses did, to show us that there IS a Living God in heaven who knows everything that is going on here.
Romans 3:18
There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Genesis 20:11
And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake.
Proverbs 9:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom...
May you one day become afraid that it is all going to happen just as the Bible predicts; then you will save yourself.
Eden
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doGon
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quote:
So youre an atheist?
Yes
quote:
How do you know it was written 40 yrs later?
We don't know exactly when it was written. I just picked one number on (on the conservative side of the range for when the NT was written). There is about a 100 year range for the authorship of the NT. Depending on the source you look at, you will see many different years for when the NT was written.
quote:
How do you know the earth is 4 bil yrs old? BC some scientist came up with a formula to compute it? How do we know its accurate?
Many different fields of sciences have looked into the age of the earth. Archeologists, biologists, geologists, etc. all agree on about the same age of the earth. Many different fields of sciences all converging on the same age for the earth...If all these fields had come up with completely different numbers, then we've got a problem.
quote:
Science and their theories are proven wrong all the time. Take the planet Pluto, NOW its not a planet.
Yes, science is proven wrong every now and then...but by who? religion? philosophy? The answer is science. Science proves itself wrong. Because it is always searching for new data, new information, new evidence. As technology increases, we gain more information about the world and universe around us, and we can improve our theories based on the new information given...It would have been pretty stubborn for science to have proclaimed the earth as the center of the universe (which it did) and then to never stray from this theory despite new evidence. Religion, however, does exactly that...
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BUT you cant disprove the Bible
That is correct, I cannot disprove the bible or the supernatural claims it makes...I also cannot disprove unicorns, leprauchans, and the flying spagetthi monster...But until there is actual empirical evidence for what the bible claims, then I am not going to believe just because it sounds nice, and It gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside...
quote:
If its in the Bible I believe it. If there is no God, and I 100% believe in my heart there is, then I ve lost nothing. I ve lived a cleaner life, a loving life, and I have no regrets. BUT if I m right, and I know I am, then I ve gained everything.
You don't know you are right about God or the Bible. You may believe in it so deeply that you think you are right, but you do not know for sure, because that would mean you have evidence, and you do not. You have faith, not knowledge.
If you are right and I am wrong, then yes I have lost a tremendous amount. If I am right, then you dont really lose anything, although I would say it was quite sad that you lived your one and only life for a fairy tale. However, those are not the only two options...What if the muslims are right? We both go to muslim hell, then...Are you sure you want to take that chance? What if Hinduism is right? What if some random african tribe has a religion that is right? There are thousands of religions. The choices arent christianity is true, or atheism is true. There are thousands of choices, so pascal's wager then just completely breaks down...
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shadowmaker
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posted
So youre an atheist?
How do you know it was written 40 yrs later? What was a yr back then? 9 months? 6 months? 15 days in a month? When was time in yrs really kept up with? How do you know the earth is 4 bil yrs old? BC some scientist came up with a formula to compute it? How do we know its accurate? Science and their theories are proven wrong all the time. Take the planet Pluto, NOW its not a planet. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) BUT you cant disprove the Bible. Theres nothing in there that you can prove wrong.
If its in the Bible I believe it. If there is no God, and I 100% believe in my heart there is, then I ve lost nothing. I ve lived a cleaner life, a loving life, and I have no regrets. BUT if I m right, and I know I am, then I ve gained everything.
Posts: 272 | Registered: Jul 2004
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doGon
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posted
quote:
I haven't used quotes from the Bible to prove that what the bible says is true.
I never said that you did...I simply asked the question
quote:
How has the christian God revealed himself?
after you claimed that he has revealed himself...And I just wanted to make sure you didnt simply say "God revealed himself in the Bible", or something similar, because the Bible is the thing that is claiming God's existence, so you can't use it to prove what it says itself is true...
So Ill ask again, and rephrase...How has God revealed Himself? or, How do you know he is real?
As for the new testament age thing, you can find thousands and thousands of sources that all give different years....One thing we do know, however, is that it definetely was not written in the time of Jesus, and was most likely written decades after his death. Nothing was written down at all, just spread by word of mouth.
So assuming this man named Jesus did exist, and he started the Christian religion, doesnt it seem rational to think that all of his divinity and all the supernatural things of the bible were added by the writers? There has never been a real case of a man walking on water, or turning water into wine, or resurrecting after three days of being dead...etc, but these things being in a book that was written decades after the events (and 2000 years ago mind you), you have no problem believing as truth??
moving on...
quote:
It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical reference
Really? Archaeology and many other sciences has discovered that the universe is 13.7 billion years old, the earth is over 4 billion years old, and that life started microbially about 3 billion years ago, and has slowly evolved to present day. There has also never been any evidence found supporting a world-wide flood (Noah's flood)...Does the Bible agree with those discoveries?
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TB125
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posted
doGon says quote:
You cannot use the Bible as evidence to prove that what the Bible says is true.
I haven't used quotes from the Bible to prove that what the bible says is true. The Bible is a record of God's revelation, and its truthfulness and the reliability of its record have been examined and tested more thoroughly than that of any other historic records. Archeological evidence has supported over and over again the accuracy of these records. Nelson Glueck has said: quote:
It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical reference
(In his book "Rivers in the Desert: History of Negev", Philadelphia, 1969, p. 176)
doGon also seems to believe that quote:
The new testament was written, at the earliest, 40 years after Jesus supposedly died.
This is not the case.
Josh McDowell in his book "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" cites Dr. John A.T. Robinson's conclusions regarding the dating of the New Testament documents, quote:
His research led to the conviction that the whole of the New Testament was written before the Fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70
(page 62 of McDowell's book).
Many New Testament scholars date the composition of these writings between the years of 50-100 A.D.(see a chart on page 62 of McDowell's book)
Paul's letter to the Galatians seems to be the earliest New Testament document, and it was probably written between 46-47 A.D. before the Jerusalem Council reported in Acts 15. (see Carl H. Morgan, "The Layman's Introduction to the New Testament", p. 29.) Since Jesus was probably crucified about 30 A.D., this means that there was only an interval of 16-17 years before the first writings of the apostles began to appear on the scene.
Since there would be many living witnesses to the events that they reported still around, they couldn't be adding quote:
supernatural things
to the record. Neither Paul nor the writers of the gospels could get away with doing this, particularly in regard to something as unusual as a resurrection from the dead out of sealed tomb that was guarded by Roman soldiers.
I would invite you to read Josh McDowell's book "Evidence that Demands a Verdict". Your case is not rational.
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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doGon
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quote:
The resurrection was foretold by Jesus Christ. Matthew writes,
hmm...so did Jesus say it, or did Matthew?
quote:
The resurrection is the only reasonable explanation for the empty tomb
A supernatural event of which we have zero evidence occured is the only reasonable explanation you can come up with? The new testament was written, at the earliest, 40 years after Jesus supposedly died. Plenty of time for all the supernatural things to be added on to the story by word of mouth, no?...Doesn't that seem like more a reasonable explanation for it? Why must you all say "ah, well, its written down, so it all must be 100% true...."
quote:
Lastly I offer into evidence the transforming power of the resurrection, in the lives of countless millions through the centuries, who have received Christ. Each of us gives evidence in our testimony to the resurrection power of Jesus of Nazareth, to break the bonds of sin, and produce peace and righteousness in our lives.
EVERY religion has personal testimonies for the existence of that particular god...Why only believe the testimonies for the Christian God?
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Caretaker
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My faith is based upon the resurrection, for it is the empty tomb, which is the pivotal point differentiating the Christian from all other religions, and establishes the credibility of the Word of God.
The resurrection was foretold by Jesus Christ. Matthew writes, “From that time Jesus Christ began to show His disciples that he must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed and raised up on the third day”(Matt. 16:21) Though his followers did not understand what He was telling them at the time, they remembered and recorded His words.
The resurrection is the only reasonable explanation for the empty tomb. If Jesus had been only wounded he could not have removed the stone or gotten past the soldiers, likewise his disciples could not have gotten by either. His enemies would not have taken the body for it would have only encouraged belief in the resurrection.
The resurrection is the only reasonable explanation for the appearances of Jesus to His disciples. There were at least ten different occasions, and even eating and allowing them to touch him.
The resurrection is the only reason for the beginning of the Christian church. This was the foundation upon which the church was founded, and the primary subject of the first sermons.
The resurrection is the only reasonable explanation for the transformed lives of the disciples. They deserted Jesus during His trial and crucifixion. They remained in hiding, and it was only after the resurrection that they emerged. These same sheep hiding in the darkness emerged with power and boldness, in the very presence of their enemies, to turn the world upside down. Where once they had cowered in fear and confusion, and Peter had made his denial three times, they now endured horrid persecution and death, with faith unshaken. The transformation in the life of Paul, can only be reasonably explained by the resurrection. For he was the lead persecutor of the early church. After meeting the resurrected Lord upon the Damascus road, Paul was transformed, and he went forth boldly proclaiming the faith, even unto a martyr’s death.
Lastly I offer into evidence the transforming power of the resurrection, in the lives of countless millions through the centuries, who have received Christ. Each of us gives evidence in our testimony to the resurrection power of Jesus of Nazareth, to break the bonds of sin, and produce peace and righteousness in our lives.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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doGon
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quote:
The early disciples, followers of Jesus, had no reason to create another god, there were plenty in Greek and Roman myths and the philosophies of the Eastern cultures as well as the God Jehovah
Why do you think there are so many gods?? People decide they dont like some aspect(s) of the god(s) previously believed in, so they invent a new god...People split off, inventing a god of their own, and so on, and so on.
quote:
The God of Christians and Jews is the God who reveals himself
How has the christian God revealed himself? If you're going to see he revealed himself in the bible, im afraid that doesnt really work...You cannot use the Bible as evidence to prove that what the Bible says is true.
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TB125
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posted
There is a basic difference between all of the gods that have been created by the minds of human beings and the God of Christians, who is the Father and the God Jehovah of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Christians worship the God who is revealed in Jesus (his story is in the New Testament), the history of Israel (the story of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the Old Testament), and in creation. The early disciples, followers of Jesus, had no reason to create another god, there were plenty in Greek and Roman myths and the philosophies of the Eastern cultures as well as the God Jehovah, who was worshipped by the Jewish communities with which they lived. The God of Christians and Jews is the God who reveals himself. His existence and nature is not created by the philosophical speculations of men, who are a part of his creation. That is a rational answer to the question "did God create man or did man create god?"
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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doGon
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man created the christian God, along with the thousands of other gods currently being believed somewhere in the world (i.e. Allah, Shen, Tian, Brahman, Vishnu, Shiva, Ekam, Satnam...etc.). And man created the thousands of other gods from the past that have been left behind (Zues, Thor, Ra...etc.)
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Member # 847
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posted
easy answer to this question. God created man. ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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Frydaddy
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Did God create man or did man create gGod???
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(New kin on the block,just waiving a hand.)
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