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Topic: (Creation.
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artm
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Member # 6243
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posted
Hello again.
First, Who says that I can't use the Bible to prove that God exist?
Who says that I must go by the rules of a non-believer ?
Please prove to me that the God of the Bible does not exist. You cannot use the same old feeble arguments of atheist before you.Please come up with something that carries some weight.
So far that hasn't been done by anyone from your camp.
All I have to do is look at the countless numbers who have received Jesus into their heart,And listen to the utter joy that flows from their heart when speaking of Christ,And I know he is real.
When I talk to those who have been healed from sickness and disease and see the Doctors report and I know God is real.
Yes, Prove to me that God does not exist.
But I must warn you, Your to late,I have seen the proof of His reality.
The songWriter said, I know He lives,He lives within my heart.
Art.
Posts: 50 | From: New York | Registered: Dec 2006
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becauseHElives
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posted
this may or may not belong in this study but anyway here goes....
Let's prove the Bible is true and that we are nearing the end of the last generation before Christ returns.
1. The Jewish people would be scattered worldwide; yet Israel would become a nation again-ref Isa 66:8; Mic 5:3. Prophecy fulfilled. This happened exactly as predicted on May 14, 1948. That's 1 out of 1.
Note: Israel was destroyed in approximately 721 B.C. and Judah about 135 years later. For the last 2500 years, approximately fourteen different peoples have possessed the land of Israel. Nevertheless, the Bible showed that the day would come when the nation of Israel would be reborn.
The rebirth of Israel was a key sign, indicating we had entered a time period called the latter days. It was the beginning of a countdown leading to the Tribulation and culminating with the Battle of Armageddon and the return of Jesus immediately after. Along with the fulfillment of this crucial event are over 360 prophecies that would all come together, so we might recognize that the Tribulation is very close at hand. Twenty nine of them are listed here.
Yet the Bible foretells that most people would not believe these things, despite the overwhelming evidence of the fulfillment of the signs from God's Word and the incredible rebirth of Israel happening exactly as predicted. As people refused to believe the flood was coming in Noah's time, so people today willingly choose to disregard the signs of the times.
2. Israel shall be brought forth in one day, at once-ref Isa 66:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That's 2 out of 2.
Note: On Nov. 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the U.N. approved a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. On the morning of May 14, 1948 (the last day of the British mandate), a meeting of the People's Council took place in Israel to decide on the name of the state and to finalize the declaration. At exactly 4pm, the proclamation ceremony began at the Tel Aviv museum. The 979 Hebrew words of the Scroll of Independence were read. All stood, and the scroll was adopted. The notorious White Paper, issued by the British in 1930 restricting Jewish immigration, was declared null and void. Members of the People's Council signed the proclamation. David Ben-Gurion rapped his gavel, declaring, "The State of Israel is established. This meeting is ended." Israel was brought forth as a nation in one day, at once. It happened exactly as predicted. At midnight, the British soldiers and high commissioner would leave. President Truman was swift in announcing U.S. recognition of Israel. The following morning, on May 15, Israel was under armed attack by the Egyptians, Syrians, Lebanese, Jordanians, and Iraqis.
3. The rebirth of Israel would happen after many days. It would occur a long time in the future after the prophecy was made and at the time the bible calls the latter days-Ezek 38:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That's 3 out of 3.
Note: It is estimated that this prophecy was made around 580 B.C. Approximately 2500 years later, in 1948, this prophecy was fulfilled.
4. Israel would be brought forth (or reborn) "out of the nations."-Ezek 38:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That's 4 out of 4.
Note: As previously stated, on Nov. 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the "United Nations" approved a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. This prophecy was perfectly fulfilled. Consider, for centuries the land of Israel had been occupied by many nations. Israel was "brought forth out of the nations"-the children of Israel from many nations were returning to their ancient homeland.
5. Israel must regain the city of Jerusalem-Joel 2:32; Isa 28:14; Ezek 22:19. This happened just as predicted in 1967. That's 5 out of 5.
Note: The Bible gives us two methods so we would know we are in the last generation. One is by Israel's rebirth. The other, by a precise line of events that would all come together at one time. Israel was reborn on May 14th, 1948. The Bible indicates that from Israel's rebirth a generation would not pass till all be fulfilled. A Jewish generation is figured from the age of 20 to 60 (1968). We are not setting any date, but it seems clear that we are living in that generation now.
6. The Christian church at the time of the end would be lukewarm, neither cold nor hot for Jesus. Prophecy fulfilled. That's 6 out of 6.
Note: God will spew them out. Many church leaders and people that call themselves a Christian and are sure they are saved will not be going to heaven. The Bible tells us-you have acquired wealth, but your true condition is wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked and you don't know it-Rev 3:14-22. This is today's church. Most churches preach very little Scripture, but lots of worldly stories. Many sing a great deal, but put very little emphasis on repentance, obeying, serving, and fearing God, the fruits of the Spirit, Bible prophecy, water baptism by immersion, and studying your Bible faithfully every day. Many are only entertainment centers that teach what their members want to hear. People will not endure sound doctrine-2 Tim 4:3. They turn away from the truth-2 Tim 4:4. Many church members are so lukewarm or dead, they don't even bring their Bibles with them to the house of God. Many ministers think this is the best church age ever, yet the Bible clearly shows it is the worst and most deceived.
7. The Bible gives us over 50 descriptions about the people at the time of the end. Here are some:
A. Some would depart from the faith and go into devil worship-1 Tim 4:1. This is perfect. Reportedly in Great Britain alone, there are about 35,000 professing witches.
B. People would have no conscience-1 Tim 4:1,2.
C. People would mock about the last days and not believe-2 Pe 3:3; Jude 18.
D. People would become lovers of themselves-2 Tim 3:1,2. Remember the TV commercials-"I do it for me"?
E. People would be disobeying their parents-2 Tim 3:1,2.
F. People would be grateful for nothing-2 Tim 3:1,2.
G. Homosexuality would increase-Lk 17:28,30; ref Gen 19:5; Ro 1:24,26,27.
H. People would be without self-control in sex-2 Tim 3:1,2,6; Rev 9:21, Lk 17:28,30; Jude 7. Is this not the great sex generation?
I. People would be untrustworthy, friends would betray friends-2 Tim 3:1-3.
J. People would love pleasures more than God-2 Tim 3:1,2,4. This is true. Shall we go on a picnic, watch football, or sleep. Church?-we can go another time. Our American motto "In God we trust" has become a joke. Remember, these were all predicted centuries ago as part of the signs that we are at the time of the end.
K. People would be taking drugs-Rev 9:21. The Greek word for sorceries, in Rev 9:21, means pharmaceuticals or drugs. God's Word is 100% right on every one. That's 7 out of 7. How could you have any doubts at this point?
Note: Fifty years ago, many people never locked their doors at night. People could leave their keys in their car. Merchants could leave their merchandise on the sidewalk without guards, and there was no profanity on television, radio, or in the movies. One of the biggest problems in public school was gum chewing. Those days are long gone.
8. There would be weapons that could destroy the world-Mk 13:20; Rev 6:8; Rev 9:18; Zech 14:8,12. This prophecy is true. That's 8 out of 8.
Note: When in our history would anyone have ever thought this possible? It is estimated that the combined nuclear arsenals of the USA and Russia (as of the year 2000) could kill every living thing on earth 6 times over.
9. There would be an increase in earthquakes-Mt 24:2,3,7; Mk 13:8; Lk 21:11. This prophecy is correct. That's 9 out of 9.
Note: One might think as the earth settled over a period of time that earthquakes would decrease like ripples in the water. Yet the Bible indicates the opposite is true. In this last generation, research from the U.S. Geological Survey, National Earthquake Information Center reveals that major earthquakes of a magnitude of 6.0 or higher have remained relatively constant during this century. However, the total number of earthquakes in recent years appear to be rising. For example, it was reported that in 1986, the total number of earthquakes was 12,718. In l990, it was 16,612. In 1994, it was 19,371. This will culminate during the Battle of Armageddon, AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS. At that time, there will be an earthquake that will shake the world. The cities of the nations will fall. Every island will flee away.
10. At the time of the end, there would be famines in various places. Food shortages would still exist in some places-Mt 24:3,4,7; ref Mk 13:8; Lk 21:11. This prophecy is accurate. That's 10 out of 10.
Note: In this last generation, many are starving in the world. Poverty and crop failure, due to severe weather, drought, or insect infestation, are often a factor. Many people are born, live, and die on the streets, in alleyways, or railroad stations in some countries of the world. Multitudes live in mud houses with grass or palm branches for a roof or have no place to live at all. Billions have no electricity. In some nations, good drinking water is almost nonexistent. Senseless wars have left millions of people with no place to go. Refugee camps exist in many places where people live under conditions that are almost indescribable. They are hungry.
One such person was asked, as I recall, "What would it take for you to consider yourself rich?" His reply was, "I would consider myself rich, if I could have a roof over my head that did not leak, and if I could know what it is like to go to bed at night with a full stomach."
It has been estimated that 60,000,000 people a year die from starvation around the world. This prophecy is accurate.
11. The Gospel must be published in all the world-Mk 13:10. This prophecy is exact. That's 11 out of 11.
Note: In this last generation, to our knowledge, the Gospel is being published (or is about to be published) in the primary language of every nation of the world or "among all nations." Yet when this prophecy was made, the possibility of such a thing would have seemed impossible. There was no printing press or any means to do such a thing. In addition to this, the Gospel should be available by short-wave radio to listeners anywhere in the world. We have just reached the point that seemed impossible-11 perfect predictions-yet with God nothing is impossible.
12. In the latter days when Israel was once again a nation, there would be a great military power to the extreme north of Israel in the land of Magog (which is modern-day Russia)-Ezek 38:2-4,8,15,16. Incredible.
Note: How could the Bible have foretold such a thing? It told the location of this nation, facts about its military, and even the time period it would come to pass. As was already said in Lk 24:25-O FOOLS, AND SLOW OF HEART TO BELIEVE ALL THAT THE PROPHETS HAVE SPOKEN. Certainly, at this point, even the biggest skeptic in the world can see that the Bible is true, there is a God, and we are very near the time of the end.
Here are just a few more prophecies briefly given, out of the 365 that exist, regarding this latter day generation.
13. In the last days, people would be hoarding gold and silver. True. It began in the late 1970's.
14. There would be a nation to the far east of Israel, to the end of the earth. This nation would have an army of 200 million. This is absolutely astounding. It is estimated by some that the population of the entire world at the time of Christ was only about 200,000,000. How then could the Bible have ever told the location of a nation and given such a figure as the size of its army nearly 2000 years ago? China has boasted that they could field an army of this exact figure.
15. The currency in Israel at the time of the end would be the shekel. The currency had been the Israeli pound until June 1980, when it was changed to the shekel. The Bible is flawless.
16. There would be an economic alliance of the nations of the Old Roman Empire. It would have a military capability. This is a perfect description of the European Economic Community (the EEC), which is in the process right now of adopting the one-currency system for many of their member nations. It is written, IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS (these nations, which is now) SHALL THE GOD OF HEAVEN SET UP A KINGDOM-Dan 2:44.
About 29 prophecies in 16 sets have been given, all perfect and all written centuries ago.
The chance of any person writing 29 perfect prophecies 2000 years into the future is not possible. The Bible is the Word of God, and we have just proved it. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Read and follow the Gospel. God loves you. He is not willing that any should perish. The Rapture is close. Most people are not ready and will not be taken.
However, "YOU" cannot say you did not know. Know and understand, Mt 16:26-WHAT IS A MAN PROFITED, IF HE SHALL GAIN THE WHOLE WORLD, AND LOSE HIS OWN SOUL? OR WHAT SHALL A MAN GIVE IN EXCHANGE FOR HIS SOUL?
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
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Hi, artm. You said:
This simply means,If anyone really wants to know if God exist all they have to do is look at creation.
Eden here: well, yeah, but that still would not reveal which one among all the gods on the earth IS the Creator.
By just looking at creation, how can one tell that the LORD God of Israel is the Creator who made this heaven and earth? One could not. So more needs to be done to find out Who's Who.
Be blessed.
Eden
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artm
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Hi,Hebrews 11:6 Says, He that comes to God must believe that He is.
There have been folks who have asked God to reveal Himself to them and God has done that,Because of His grace.
But these people have asked from a humble heart, not of pride,And not for the reason of proving God does not exist.
God is not obligated to prove His exsistence to anyone. He doesn't need us,We need Him.
Romans 1:18-20 Declares. FOR THE WRATH OF GOD IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN AGAINST ALL UNGODLINESS AND UNRIGHTEOUSNESS OF MEN WHO HOLD THE TRUTH IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS,
BECAUSE THAT WHICH MAY BE KNOWN OF GOD IS MANIFEST IN THEM, FOR GOD HAS SHOWED IT UNTO THEM.
FOR THE INVISIBLE THINGS OF HIM FROM THE CREATION OF THE WORLD ARE CLEARLY SEEN BEING UNDERSTOOD BY THE THINGS THAT ARE MADE,
EVEN HIS ETERNAL POWER AND GODHEAD,SO THAT THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE.
This simply means,If anyone really wants to know if God exist all they have to do is look at creation.
Look at the stars,the sun,moon, Look at the sea, If one will be honest in their heart they must conclude that Gos is real.
So in effect God has revealed himself to those who would seek His realality.
The Bible tells us that " The fool has said in his heart there is no God "
If one from their heart seeks God they will discover, He really does.
And those who won't believe,Then they to will discover one day He really does.
God bless. Pastor Mann
Posts: 50 | From: New York | Registered: Dec 2006
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artm
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Well,Praise the Lord.
How do I know God is real ? Let me count the ways.
I know God is real first of all by " Personal experience"
I have heard,and I have seen the wonderful works of Almighty God. I have seen the sick healed. I myself have been healed by Gods Loving touch.
I have seen the Captive and bound set free by the Power of God.
I have personally seen God deliver from demonic power with my own eyes.
I have read countless testimonies from those who have truly experienced God.
And I have read The Bible, And have felt the witness of the Holy Spirit that these Words are indeed truth.
Now for those who have chosen not to believe any of the things of God. You will not convince them to do otherwise.
Psalm 14:1 Declares, " For the fool has said in his heart there is no God"
I will pray that God in His great grace will reveal the truth to all unbelievers, But I will not argue as to how to prove Gods existence.
Hebrews 11:6 says, " For he that cometh to God Must believe that he is."
Its a Faith thing. And at the same time that faith will bring forth infallable proof that Christ is everything he claims to be.
God bless. Pastor Mann
Posts: 50 | From: New York | Registered: Dec 2006
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Eden
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And, Chaffin, I thought about this Topic for a moment today when I realized that even today's religions could be deemed to fulfill that statement in Deuteronomy.
Because after Israel was sidelined while Israel was mixed among the nations, the church of Israel went global by having believers in Jesus's redemptive work in every nation.
So that, whatever happened to the nation of Israel, now also will happen among the church of Israel and to the unbelieving world. That is, now the religions which the LORD allows to exist are the religions or OUR world, to prove whether we love the LORD, or not.
Be blessed, and have some great holidays.
Eden
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Chaffin
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Found it.....
Deut 13:1-3
1-If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder.
2-And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3-Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
I believe that says it plain as day. I'm just not that good at remembering where all the scriptures are off the top of my head so sorry fot the delay. Maybe one day after I've studied it all a hundred times I'll remember where it was....LOL
Posts: 27 | From: Milton, WV. | Registered: Nov 2006
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Chaffin
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It may take me alittle bit Eden but I will find it and post the scripture on here for you. I can't remember and quote the scriptures like most can but I can remember what I read and I know it's in there....LOL It may not be in Exodus exactly but it's not too far from it.
Posts: 27 | From: Milton, WV. | Registered: Nov 2006
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doGon
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quote:
There are many miracles in the Bible. The only miracle that occurs in a “spiritual book” is that the person reading it and learning it experiences enlightenment.
Nothing miraculous happens in other holy books?...(by the way, it is funny how you downgrade the other 'holy books' as just 'spiritual books'.) Why do accept the miraculous things from the bible as truth, but not the miraculous things from the other holy books, when there is the same evidence for both? (none)...
As for the the prophecies in the Bible, do you think maybe they were fulfilled because the writers of the new testament had maybe perhaps read the old testament....?
And you accept fulfilled prophecies as evidence the Bible is true, I guess you would regard false prophecies as evidence the Bible isn't true? (and there are many false prophecies in the Bible.)
quote:
And then one has to consider how could Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, of whom at least John was Galilean fisherman, write 4 accounts of Jesus’s life, and write, as it were, from different angles and about different aspects of Jesus’s life.Did they get together in a café to coordinate these books
No they didn't, however Matthew, Luke, and John's writings are all based on what Mark wrote...Its not like they were all in four seperate corners of the Earth, all writing at the same time, and it was miraculous how the writings fit together....
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Eden
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Acts 17:29-31
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God has winked at; but now He commands all men every where to repent.
31 Because He has appointed a day, in which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He has ordained; whereof He has given assurance to all men, in that He has raised him from the dead.
John 4:22
You worship you know not what: but we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Chaffin, some of those religions are probably not as old as the Old Testament days of Exodus, so it cannot be that the LORD allowed those religions to stay or to be in the world so that the LORD could see and show who would stay faithful to the LORD.
Here is the problem with that idea, Chaffin. The people of the tribe of Israel and in the land of Israel had no awareness of those other religions at all, so those other religions could NOT have helped determine which Israelites would stay faithful to the LORD.
But, in the Old Testament's case of the book of Exodus or thereabouts, there probably is a verse referring to how the LORD left the gods of the nations.
With nations here meaning, a city-size kingdom with its surrounding villages and cultivated fields.
But the Israelites were instructed to destroy them all, if they had enough faith in the LORD's ability from the miracles that the Israelites had ALREADY seen.
When the Israelites was NOT able to destroy all the cities by lacking the needed faith in the LORD's abilities, the LORD then used those closeby nations (read, city-sized kingdoms in fortified cities), the LORD may have used those nations to test the faith of the Israelites in the LORD.
But the LORD NEVER USED the religions mostly mentioned in this Topic, like the Bhagadva Gita and Nirvana and Zen Bhuddism and Krishna and Satori and Allah Islam.
Even Allah Islam did not appear until after 630 A.D. So Allah came very late to the table of use by the LORD. So the LORD did not use Allah Islam either to "see who would stay faithful to the LORD."
Be blessed, Chaffin.
Eden
Be blessed.
Eden
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Chaffin
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The reason God lets all these other religions and idols exist is to see if we will stay faithfull to him. I looked for it in the Bible where it talks about this but I couldn't find it right off to post where it says this. I believe it is somewhere in Exodus. If somebody else knows right off go ahead and post it. I will have to look it up again here in a bit after I get some sleep.
Posts: 27 | From: Milton, WV. | Registered: Nov 2006
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Eden
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doGon said to Eden:
So, it seems to me that your answer to the question...
quote from doGon:
And how come none of the other holy books do the same thing for you, while millions others believe them just as strongly as you believe the Bible?
(End of quote from doGon)
doGon then said to Eden:
Is, the Bible says God, the Creator, created the nation of Israel, and since I can look on a map and see that there actually is a nation of Israel, the Bible must be true and right about everything.
If this is wrong, please answer the above quoted question in a short sentence or two to just clarify for me, because i couldn't even really tell if there was an answer in that last post...thanks
Eden here:
There are many miracles in the Bible. The only miracle that occurs in a “spiritual book” is that the person reading it and learning it experiences enlightenment.
But the Bible foretells the future, and none of the other spiritual books do that (at least, not the ones I have read). Jesus for instance had to be born from the family of David and had to be born in Bethlehem, during a time when there is a Roman occupation of the land of Israel.
Jesus had to die on a cross and not die some other way because the Bible predicted that he had do hang on a tree.
Jesus’s bones were foretold not to be broken and he died on the cross not having his legs broken because he was already dead; instead the Roman soldier pierced his side with a spear, because it was foretold that he had to be pierced.
As I said in my previous post, the nation of Israel was started by one couple, Abraham and Sarah, and the nation is still with us to.
Jesus was not just spiritual, he also did a lot of miracles. The books of enlightenment quoted by you and by me allow humans to understand their relationship to the physical universe, but that does not explain where the miracles came from in Jesus.
When one reads the New Testament, for instance, an honest reader has to say, “did he do that? Or is that just literary license with fiction? Miracle, or nonsense?
And then one has to consider how could Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, of whom at least John was Galilean fisherman, write 4 accounts of Jesus’s life, and write, as it were, from different angles and about different aspects of Jesus’s life. Did they get together in a café to coordinate these books, about who would write which part in koinonia Greek?
What I’m saying, a complete reading of the Bible from front to back confronts the reader with a lot of miracles or nonsense, in many places. That is completely different than what the other spiritual books do.
The Bible describes the journey of an entire tribe and nation which culminates in Jesus coming from that tribe nation, had to be born in the tribe of Judah, had to be born from the family of David from among many families in the tribe of Judah, and had to be born in Bethlehem from among many cities and villages in Judah.
A reading of the Bible confronts the reader with miracles, and not just with the spirituality of correctly identifying ourselves with being also part and parcel the same substance as the universe, and all that means.
Is Israel a miraculous nation? Did Jesus raise from the dead in Israel? Will Jesus come the second time to take control of the earth from Jerusalem? Several rereadings of the Bible eventually convinced me that the LORD God of Israel DOES foretell the future, like no other god of any other book can do; those other books can only help identify our unity with the physical universe. The Bible goes further and reveals the God BEHIND the universe.
Be blessed. Eden
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TEXASGRANDMA
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I love my children very much. When my children were born, I could have made a choice to lock them up in a room where they would have been protected from any temptations. My children could have been protected from falling off a bike, and gettting hurt and from all kinds of sins. Would they have a fullfulling life? I think not. They would not have had all kinds of wonderful experences in life. I would not have two grand children. God gaveus a choice. We can choose to love and accept him, or we can choose to reject. My children had to live with the choices they make and we do to.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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doGon
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Wow....so God allowed all these other religions so we would have choices because he wants us to have free will, but if you chose the wrong one you burn in hell for all of eternity....DOES NO ONE ELSE SEE THE ABSURDITY IN THIS??? this makes it seems like, if God is real, he is just having a laugh for all the people that chose incorrectly and go to hell....
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TEXASGRANDMA
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If we find out that your God is real, and we all go to hell for this decision, we are going to be wondering why he created (or allowed) all those thousands of other religions to confuse people....If your God is real, why did he let the religion based on him, the religion you need to get to heaven, just be another sand grain amongst a beach full of sand grains, having no more evidence for it being true, than there is for islam, hinduism, etc...???
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freedom of choices. You can't have freedom of choice without other things to choose from.
If I fix a buffet with only 1 choice of food, there is no freedom of choice. That is not to say that God created any false relgions, but He did allow the devil to so, so that people would have the freedom to choose for themselves. I pray that you do not wait to late to choose God.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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lonlesol
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Again doGon, He gave each and everyone of us the freedom to make our own decisions.
Posts: 478 | From: Quebec | Registered: Mar 2005
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doGon
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quote:
no it means that God gave you free will to choose Him or die in your sins. He could have made us robots without choice, but he gave us freedom to make our decisions.
Ok...I, along with about 4 billion other people, have decided to not believe in him because of lack of evidence...
If we find out that your God is real, and we all go to hell for this decision, we are going to be wondering why he created (or allowed) all those thousands of other religions to confuse people....If your God is real, why did he let the religion based on him, the religion you need to get to heaven, just be another sand grain amongst a beach full of sand grains, having no more evidence for it being true, than there is for islam, hinduism, etc...???
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Kindgo
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Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
2Cr 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now [is] the accepted time; behold, now [is] the day of salvation.)
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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no it means that God gave you free will to choose Him or die in your sins. He could have made us robots without choice, but he gave us freedom to make our decisions.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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doGon
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Keeping with the 'building on fire' analogy...
So, I'm in a building that is on fire, and I dont want to leave, so i hide in the bathroom. An all-knowing, all-powerful fireman (God) comes into the building and wants to save me. He doesn't want me to burn in the fire (just like you saying that God doesn't want me to go to hell). So, since the fireman (God) is all-knowing and all-powerful he will easily know where I am in the building, and will easily be able to pick me up and drag me out of the building.....
If, in this analogy, I had hide in the bathroom, and died (gone to hell), that means the fireman (God) either: 1) wasn't powerful enough to save me, or 2.) didnt want to save me....
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TEXASGRANDMA
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there will be people in hell, simply because they reject their way of escape, Jesus Christ.
God gave us a way of escape, if we reject His way, we will go to hell. Look at it like this, if you are in a building that is on fire and you refuse to exit but hide in the bathroom, then it is your own fault you die.
If we go to hell, we cannot blame God, He sent His Son to die for us to save us. We need to accept Him as our Savior and Lord in order to be saved.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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doGon
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quote:
God doesn't want anyone to go to hell.
texasgrandma, if God is real, and that statement you made is true, then there isn't anyone in hell....If God is truly all-powerful (tell me if you dont believe he is for some reason), and he doesnt want anyone in hell, then there wont be anyone in hell...
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Amen Kindgo
Sadly we often can't see our own needs. There are many who do not see that they need the Lord, but that does not take away their need. Just a couple of months ago when we were at the VA, my husband's blood pressure shot up. He kept saying he felt fine and did not want to be sent to the emergency room. Later, he found out he had had a small stroke. He was in danger but had not clue. Much worse are those who are in danger of hell, but refuse to see their need for salvation.
It is like yelling for a person to come out of a burning builiding and they ignore the call to escape. God doesn't want anyone to go to hell. He sent His Son to die for us so that we could be save, and yet so many reject this gift of Salvation.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
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posted
Greetings Dogon
And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.
He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”
Do not seal the words of this prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand: Because the time is at hand, and history now runs parallel to the brink of the consummation of all things, this book isn’t sealed.
This is in contrast to Old Testament prophecy (Daniel 8:26); men seal the Book of Revelation in defiance of God’s command.
He who is unjust, let him be unjust still . . . he who is righteous, let him be righteous still:
The thought here is probably “since Jesus is coming so suddenly, there won’t be time for change.” There will be no time for last minute repentance, but there is time now.
If what you have read in Revelation hasn’t changed you, there isn’t much hope!
“It is the hopelessness of the final state of the wicked which is here pictured. The states of both the evil and the good are now fixed forever. There is no word here about a ‘second chance’ hereafter.”
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Rev 22:1 ¶ And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name [shall be] in their foreheads.
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 22:6 ¶ And he said unto me, These sayings [are] faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed [is] he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard [them]. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 ¶ And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Rev 22:18 ¶ For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.
Rev 22:20 ¶ He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you all. Amen.
“If the warnings of this book are not sufficient, there is no more that God has to say.” (Walvoord)
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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doGon
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quote:
Hello doGon...deep down, I see that you believe in God, and that you know that there is only one God, don't you!...you are not fooling me... ...you know why I say this?.....notice when you write the word ''God'' and ''god'' in different situations...admit it, you how who God is, and you do have a lot of respect for Him, don't you!...
hmmm, maybe lonlesol...Or it might be because I like to write correctly, and when I say 'God' it is because I am referring to your specific god, and using it as a name. And when I say 'god' or 'gods' it is because I am referring to no god in particular. I also capitalize Allah, Ra, Shiva, Mithras, Thor, etc....
Just like when you write 'Mom' it is because you are referring to someone's specific mom, but when you write 'mom' you dont caps it because you are not referring to a specific mom....
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lonlesol
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quote:
Why should I accept these things?? I have already asked this question, but no one answered it....why should I believe you guys and your testimonies and not the people who have testimonies for Allah, or Vishnu, or Brahman, or Tian, or Xenu? All these people have just as much faith in their respective gods , as you do in your God ...If faith is the only 'evidence' you have for God , why shouldn't I believe in any of those other gods mentioned, whose believers have the same faith?
As for the evidence around me in the natural world, my own body, etc....again, why is this evidence for the specific christian God , and not someone else's??
Hello doGon...deep down, I see that you believe in God, and that you know that there is only one God, don't you!...you are not fooling me... ![[wiggle7]](graemlins/wiggle7.gif) ...you know why I say this?.....notice when you write the word ''God'' and ''god'' in different situations...admit it, you how who God is, and you do have a lot of respect for Him, don't you!... ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif)
Posts: 478 | From: Quebec | Registered: Mar 2005
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doGon
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TB125,
quote:
You reject anything in the Bible.
Just to clarify, I of course don't reject EVERYTHING in the bible. There are things in any fiction book that are true...I simply don't believe any of the supernatural bits that have no evidence that actually happened, and every reason to believe it is the mythology that it resembles... (a lot of mythology was written in the time the bible was written).
quote:
You apparently haven't accepted anything that anyone on this forum has shared with you, including their personal testimonies and suggestions for your continued investigations. You obviously don't accept what you see in the natural world around you, including your own body, as any evidence for the existence of God. You don't see any moral code as evidence for the existence of God or even the existence of absolute goodness.
Why should I accept these things?? I have already asked this question, but no one answered it....why should I believe you guys and your testimonies and not the people who have testimonies for Allah, or Vishnu, or Brahman, or Tian, or Xenu? All these people have just as much faith in their respective gods, as you do in your God...If faith is the only 'evidence' you have for God, why shouldn't I believe in any of those other gods mentioned, whose believers have the same faith?
As for the evidence around me in the natural world, my own body, etc....again, why is this evidence for the specific christian God, and not someone else's??
The fact that there were thousands and thousands of gods in the world was probably the thing that tipped me over into non-belief. People just simply have no clue what is right when it comes to religion, which is why there are so many sects of it....Its all made up....
quote:
What more proof do you want from God?
What more proof do you want from Allah?
What more proof do you want from Ra?
What more proof do you want from Mithras?
What more proof do you want from Zoomba?
As I have just said above, the people of other religions have the same 'personal testimony' convinctions as you guys do...Yet you don't believe in these gods because you dont see any proof of them, correct? I dont see the proof either....the same is the case for your God....
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Chaffin
Advanced Member
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posted
doGon, I wasn't trying to make it a question between good and evil. I know plenty of people who haven't accepted the Lord and are good hearted people. I was just comparing the movie to this post. The good being that you are on this board obviously seeking answers to help you believe in God again. Which is a step in the right direction. IMO...
You say you have asked him to reveal himself to you but he hasn't yet. Well when he told Sarah and Abraham that they would have a son, correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it 25 years after he told them that they had Isaac? It may take sometime but he will most definately reveal himself to you. I just hope it isn't too late when he does.
Posts: 27 | From: Milton, WV. | Registered: Nov 2006
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TB125
Advanced Member
Member # 2450
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posted
DoGon,
You ask: quote:
How have I placed restrictions on how He should present the proof?
You reject anything in the Bible. You apparently haven't accepted anything that anyone on this forum has shared with you, including their personal testimonies and suggestions for your continued investigations. You obviously don't accept what you see in the natural world around you, including your own body, as any evidence for the existence of God. You don't see any moral code as evidence for the existence of God or even the existence of absolute goodness. You have apparently dismissed the evidence of God's personal love for you in Jesus Christ, which you admit that you once accepted as a Christian. So you must be looking for something different than His forgiving grace through the death of His Son, Jesus. What more proof do you want from God?
I'll be looking for your answers to these questions.
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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doGon
unregistered
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posted
Just for clarification, my post that is just above this one was a response to TexasGrandma's 'help' post, not TB125's post, because we posted at pretty much the same time....
TB125,
quote:
What would God have to do to you personally for Him to prove to you that He exists?
This may seem like somewhat of a copout to the question, but I think it is perfectly rational: If God is real, all-knowing, and all-powerful, then God would know what it would take for me to believe in Him (assuming he wants me to believe in Him). If He truely wants me to believe in Him, then he obviously does not have the power to make that so, since of course I don't believe. I know people will shoot back with 'he doesn't violate free will'. Well, then, he isn't all-powerful. The other option is, of course, that he does have the power to make me believe, but choses not to make me believe. Then I would want to know why...
quote:
You don't seem to believe in any miracles or the possibility of miracles , yet you are seeking some rational proof for God's existence.
Miracles could be possible, i dont know. But until i see evidence, I dont believe in them...
quote:
Have you really personally asked God to reveal Himself to you?
Yes, many times.
quote:
How can you continue to look for the proof of God's existence while you obviously place some specific restrictions on how He should present this proof?
How have I placed restrictions on how He should present the proof?
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doGon
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Well, If I agreed with you that I need help, then I have just then admitted that what you want to help me with is true, havent I? I am looking for actual reason to believe that I need this 'help' is warranted...
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TB125
Advanced Member
Member # 2450
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posted
DoGon,
It is apparent that you are not going to accept as proof of God's existence anything that you read anywhere or anything that any of us can share with you.
What would God have to do to you personally for Him to prove to you that He exists?
You don't seem to believe in any miracles or the possibility of miracles, yet you are seeking some rational proof for God's existence. Have you really personally asked God to reveal Himself to you? How can you continue to look for the proof of God's existence while you obviously place some specific restrictions on how He should present this proof?
I would like to see your specific answers to these questions in order to recognize that you are being "reasonable" and "rational" in your statements on this forum. Is that fair enough?
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
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posted
you can't help someone who does not want to be helped, that is the pity
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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doGon
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posted
quote:
Without Jesus as your Savior, you will not go to Heaven.
why should I believe this as truth?
"without Mithras as your savior, you will not go to heaven"
Why should I not believe this statement as truth, but believe the first one??
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TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
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posted
It is not a question of good or evil. Without Jesus as your Savior, you will not go to Heaven.
Only by accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior can you have the assurance of Heaven. We care about you here on this board. We pray that God will open your heart and eyes to the truth of the Gospel.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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doGon
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posted
Hello Chaffin...
quote:
I am just curious what happened that changed you?
I pretty much answered this in my above post with the following...
quote:
The reason I stopped believing was because I had no reason to think there actually was a God up there to answer to, and every reason to believe that it was made up fairytales to cope with death and this absurd life, just like every other religion of man...
I just simply started to look into it deeper, and started asking questions. Why do I believe this? Is there really any evidence for this? It wasn't a quick change, (and really hard to describe in words)....There was probably a period of about 3 or 4 years between the time i called myself a christian and the time i called myself an atheist, so it defenitely wasnt overnight....
quote:
As I was reading this whole post earlier It was like I was watching the Star Wars scene where Luke and Darth Vador were fighting and Luke old Darth Vador that he still sinced good in him. I feel the same about you doGon. I do since good in you
...do you think that only people who believe what you do (believe in God) are good? You're kind of assuming that since im an atheist i must be bad, but that i still have hope of 'becoming good' and believing in God again, which isnt the case...atheists are not evil people possessed by the devil. we just dont believe that you need a higher power looking down on you in order to be good.
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Chaffin
Advanced Member
Member # 6221
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posted
Hello everybody,
I am new to this board. I am sure I will pick your brain a little because I can never learn enough.
I just have one question for doGon. You said that you used to be a Christian. I am just curious what happened that changed you? As I was reading this whole post earlier It was like I was watching the Star Wars scene where Luke and Darth Vador were fighting and Luke old Darth Vador that he still sinced good in him. I feel the same about you doGon. I do since good in you and I do hope you find the answers you are looking for and I know God will Bless you if you let him and I think deep down you know it too. Something made you register on this message board and I don't believe in chances or luck.
God Bless
Chaffin
Posts: 27 | From: Milton, WV. | Registered: Nov 2006
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doGon
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posted
quote:
doGon you don't believe because you don't want to believe. You don't want to have to answer to God so you think if you just say there is no God you will not have to answer to Him.
I was a christian until about 5 or 6 years ago. The reason i stopped believing had nothing to do with not wanting to 'answer' to God anymore. The reason I stopped believing was because I had no reason to think there actually was a God up there to answer to, and every reason to believe that it was made up fairytales to cope with death and this absurd life, just like every other religion of man...
quote:
Well when you die and YOU WILL, you will find out there is a God and it will be to late. Just because you want to say He don't exist does not mean when you die you will not have to answer to Him. Because He does exist.
Have you died and found out there is a God? Is this how you are so sure that I will face God when I die? Give me some actual proof or evidence that what you claim here is true, and not just emotional appeal...
As for your atheist test...funny...
quote:
Note that the banana:
1. Is shaped for human hand
2. Has non-slip surface
3. Has outward indicators of inward content:
Green-too early,
Yellow-just right,
Black-too late.
4. Has a tab for removal of wrapper
5. Is perforated on wrapper
6. Bio-degradable wrapper
7. Is shaped for human mouth
8. Has a point at top for ease of entry
9. Is pleasing to taste buds
10. Is curved towards the face to make eating process easy
So because the banana is seemingly designed just for us, and we eat them, therefore it must have been created by not only God, but by the christian God....I have a few questions: how about the pinneapple or the coconut?? Also, My finger seems to be perfectly designed to fit inside my nostril, should i leave it in there?
Even Ray Comfort himself has left this argument by the way-side.
quote:
What if you are wrong? What if God, Jesus, the prophets, the Jews, and Christians are right and you are wrong? If there is no afterlife, no Judgment Day, no heaven, and no hell, then God is unjust and each of the above is guilty of being a false witness. It means that Almighty God couldn’t care less about the fact that a man rapes a woman, then cuts her throat and is never brought to justice. If you are right, and there is no ultimate justice, you won’t even have the joy of saying, "I told you so." However, if you are wrong, you will lose your soul and end up eternally damned. You are playing Russian roulette with a fully loaded gun.
I just got done wondering why so many people were using Pascal's Wager in the post above yours David, and yet here it is again....Read earlier in topic for my response to this....
quote:
We believe in many things that we can’t see. Have you ever seen the wind. Have you ever seen history? Have you ever seen your brain? We see the effects of the wind, but the wind is invisible. We have records of history, but it is by "faith" that we believe certain historical events happened. Television waves are invisible, but an antenna and a receiver can detect their presence. An unregenerate man likewise has a "receiver." However, the receiver (your spirit) is dead because of sin (Ephesians 2:1). You need to be plugged into the life of God; then you will come alive and be aware of the invisible spiritual realm.
Just because you can't see something with your eyes, doesnt mean you have to take it by faith that that thing is real. Your eyes are not the only way we can look at, inspect, and sense the world....You say that we have to take history by faith, because all we have are 'records of history'...the records themselves are the evidence, therefore you do not need faith to believe that history probably indeed did happen....You then make a television receiver analogous with a 'human' reciever for God....I can see evidence for television reciever and how it works...again, i see no evidence for the opposite side of your anology, and until there is evidence, just because you were able to think it up or make some sort of an anology for it, doesnt mean that it merits belief...
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KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
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quote:
Originally posted by doGon:
I would actually like to see some evidence for God, yes...However, since I don't see any, I don't believe.
doGon you don't believe because you don't want to believe. You don't want to have to answer to God so you think if you just say there is no God you will not have to answer to Him. Well when you die and YOU WILL, you will find out there is a God and it will be to late. Just because you want to say He don't exist does not mean when you die you will not have to answer to Him. Because He does exist. You need to take the Atheist Test. Just click on the below link:
http://e-tacklebox.com/atheist-test.htm
What if you are wrong? What if God, Jesus, the prophets, the Jews, and Christians are right and you are wrong? If there is no afterlife, no Judgment Day, no heaven, and no hell, then God is unjust and each of the above is guilty of being a false witness. It means that Almighty God couldn’t care less about the fact that a man rapes a woman, then cuts her throat and is never brought to justice. If you are right, and there is no ultimate justice, you won’t even have the joy of saying, "I told you so." However, if you are wrong, you will lose your soul and end up eternally damned. You are playing Russian roulette with a fully loaded gun.
:::::::::::::
We believe in many things that we can’t see. Have you ever seen the wind. Have you ever seen history? Have you ever seen your brain? We see the effects of the wind, but the wind is invisible. We have records of history, but it is by "faith" that we believe certain historical events happened. Television waves are invisible, but an antenna and a receiver can detect their presence. An unregenerate man likewise has a "receiver." However, the receiver (your spirit) is dead because of sin (Ephesians 2:1). You need to be plugged into the life of God; then you will come alive and be aware of the invisible spiritual realm.
In all major religions, the followers strive to rid themselves of sin through various practices. They may pray in a prescribed way, do various good works, deny themselves legitimate sexual pleasure, follow dietary restrictions, lie on beds of nails, etc. The uniqueness of Jesus is shown in His statement, "The Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins." No other religious leader has ever made this claim. Jesus Christ alone can wash away every sin anyone has ever committed, be-cause of what He did on the cross. By paying the penalty for our sin, He can release us from the torture of guilt. We cannot do anything in the way of religious works to wash away our sins. Forgiveness is a free gift of God (Ephesians 2:8,9).
In 1889 a schoolteacher told a ten-year-old boy, "You will never amount to very much." That boy was Albert Einstein. In 1954 a music manager told a young singer, "You ought to go back to driving a truck." That singer was Elvis Presley. In 1962 a record company told a group of singers, "We don’t like your sound. Groups with guitars are definitely on their way out." They said that to the Beatles. Man is prone to make mistakes. Those who reject the Bible should take the time to look at the evidence before they come to a verdict. 1. It is unique in its continuity. If just 10 people today were picked who were from the same place, born around the same time, spoke the same language, and made about the same amount of money, and were asked to write on just one controversial subject, they would have trouble agreeing with each other. But the Bible stands alone. It was written over a period of 1,600 years by more than 40 writers from all walks of life. Some were fishermen; some were politicians. Others were generals or kings, shepherds or historians. They were from three different continents, and wrote in three different languages. They wrote on hundreds of controversial subjects yet they wrote with agreement and harmony. They wrote in dungeons, in temples, on beaches, and on hillsides, during peacetime and during war. Yet their words sound like they came from the same source. So even though 10 people today couldn’t write on one controversial subject and agree, God picked 40 different people to write the Bible—and it stands the test of time. 2. It is unique in its circulation. The invention of the printing press in 1450 made it possible to print books in large quantities. The first book printed was the Bible. Since then, the Bible has been read by more people and printed more times than any other book in history. By 1930, over one billion Bibles had been distributed by Bible societies around the world. By 1977, Bible societies alone were printing over 200 million Bibles each year, and this doesn’t include the rest of the Bible publishing companies. No one who is interested in knowing the truth can ignore such an important book. 3. It is unique in its translation. The Bible has been translated into over 1,400 languages. No other book even comes close. 4. It is unique in its survival. In ancient times, books were copied by hand onto manuscripts which were made from parchment and would decay over time. Ancient books are available today only because someone made copies of the originals to preserve them. For example, the original writings of Julius Caesar are no longer around. We know what he wrote only by the copies we have. Only 10 copies still exist, and they were made 1,000 years after he died. Only 600 copies of Homer’s The Iliad exist, made 1,300 years after the originals were written. No other book has as many copies of the ancient manuscripts as the Bible. In fact, there are over 24,000 copies of New Testament manuscripts, some written within 35 years of the writer’s death. 5. It is unique in withstanding attack. No other book has been so attacked throughout history as the Bible. In A.D. 300 the Roman emperor Diocletian ordered every Bible burned because he thought that by destroying the Scriptures he could destroy Christianity. Anyone caught with a Bible would be executed. But just 25 years later, the Roman emperor Constantine ordered that 50 perfect copies of the Bible be made at government expense. The French philosopher Voltaire, a skeptic who destroyed the faith of many people, boasted that within 100 years of his death, the Bible would disappear from the face of the earth. Voltaire died in 1728, but the Bible lives on. The irony of history is that 50 years after his death, the Geneva Bible Society moved into his former house and used his printing presses to print thousands of Bibles. The Bible has also survived criticism. No book has been more attacked for its accuracy. And yet archeologists are proving every year that the Bible’s detailed descriptions of historic events are correct. See Matthew 4:4 and 1 Peter 1:25
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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doGon
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It seems you want someone to convince you that God is real or you are wanting to convince us He is not. Salvation is not about proving God exist. It is depended on faith.
I would actually like to see some evidence for God, yes...However, since I don't see any, I don't believe. I don't see any evidence for leprauchans, so I don't believe in them either, and I'm guessing you don't believe in them as well. I know there are things we all wish were true, hope that are true. I hope that there is some life after death. I think we all do. However, just because I want it to be so, doesn't mean I should go around assuming that it is so....
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A couple of years ago my son went through an agnostic period. My hubby told him that to live for Christ and be wrong is to live with nothing to lose, but to live for yourself and Christ be real, you have eternity to lose.
This is like the 3rd or 4th time in this topic alone that someone has brought up Pascal's Wager. I sometimes can't believe how much I see it being used...Read a little further up in this topic for my response to this....
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No human being can convince a person that God is real. It is a personal relationship with God. I do believe that if you were to open your heart to the voice of God and seek His face, He will make Himself real to you. He came to save your soul and to have a personal relationship with you.
So someone else can't show me God exists, but I can show myself? I don't trust the human mind very much when it comes to the supernatural. People claim to have seen and been ubducted by aliens. Do you believe them? Why should I believe your 'relationshop with God'?
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TEXASGRANDMA
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daGon
It seems you want someone to convince you that God is real or you are wanting to convince us He is not. Salvation is not about proving God exist. It is depended on faith.
Faith is necessary for Salvation:
"He that believeth and is baptized", said Christ, "shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be condemned" (Mk.16:16); and St. Paul sums up this solemn declaration by saying: "Without faith it is impossible to please God" (Heb.11:6).
Being a Christian is not about superior knowledge. It is about faith that opens your heart to accept the truth of the Gospel.
1Cr 1:25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men
1Cr 1:26¶For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]:
1Cr 1:27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Cr 1:28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Cr 1:29That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Cr 1:30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption
1Cr 1:31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
A couple of years ago my son went through an agnostic period. My hubby told him that to live for Christ and be wrong is to live with nothing to lose, but to live for yourself and Christ be real, you have eternity to lose.
No human being can convince a person that God is real. It is a personal relationship with God. I do believe that if you were to open your heart to the voice of God and seek His face, He will make Himself real to you. He came to save your soul and to have a personal relationship with you.
God bless you.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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doGon
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So, it seems to me that your answer to the question...
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And how come none of the other holy books do the same thing for you, while millions others believe them just as strongly as you believe the Bible?
is 'the Bible says God, the Creator, created the nation of Isreal, and since I can look on a map and see that there actually is a nation of Isreal, the Bible must be true and right about everything.
If this is wrong, please answer the above quoted question in a short sentence or two to just clarify for me, because i couldn't even really tell if there was an answer in that last post...thanks
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Eden
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Hi, DoGon. You quoted Eden:
Quote from Eden:
Read the Bible, DoGon, for the events described therein are able to convince a "rational" person that there really is a Living God who made the sky and earth and stars, who sent Jesus to do miracles like Moses did, to show us that there IS a Living God in heaven who knows everything that is going on here.
End of quote from Eden. You said:
And how come none of the other holy books do the same thing for you, while millions others believe them just as strongly as you believe the Bible?
Eden here:
Certain spiritual things CAN be understood from the creation, and many of these religions have understood things about God which can be seen from creation itself.
But that is the creation. It turns out that there is a Living God outside and beyond, but 100% aware of the creation, namely its Creator, and this Creator also wanted and needed to reveal Himself to the earth, which still did not know about him.
So the Living God created the nation of Israel through one couple, Abraham and Sarah, and that nation of Israel is with us today, and out of that nation came forth Jesus of Nazareth to bring salvation to the earth by which we may enter the "world to come" by dying on the cross for our sins outside Jerusalem, and then rose from the dead on the third day and ascended up into heaven from Bethany at the mount of Olives on the east side of Jerusalem.
And this Jesus shall come again as he went, not as Suffering Servant the next time, but as conquering King of kings who one had better be friends with when He comes.
Israel is a very special nation among us today, by which behind-the-scenes Living God is revealing His Presence to the earth.
For instance, it was predicted that Jerusalem would become a burdensome stone around the neck of the nations in the latter days, and today Jerusalem IS a burdernsome stone for the nations.
And how easy do you think it was for Jesus to get himself crucified (“he had to hang on a tree”) and to die ON the Passover (“he had to be our Passover”), when Jesus was in the hands of the Romans who “presumably” told Jesus that he Jesus had no control over when they were going to kill him, or how.
You now how they would say, "WE will tell you when you die, YOU do not tell us!" Everything about Israel is very special, Dogon, “a peculiar people”, as the Bible calls them.
Israel was chosen to bring knowledge to the earth that there IS a Living, Knowing God in heaven, and this Living God created the nation of Israel to show that to us.
That’s why the Bible’s version of reality is the most advanced, in that it is, “for the world to come”. All the other religions are only for this world.
But salvation is of the Jews. Through Israel or the Jews has come the revelation that there is a Living God who has made heaven and earth and all that is in it.
That there is a God who can interfere with our earth, and that is not something that the other religions were designed to understand.
This same Living God has said that He will start a new race of people descended now from Jesus, and no more from the first Adam; we are headed toward "the world to come", and "this world" and "all that is therein" will be dissolved.
What the other religions knew was (and for now still is) legitimate, but salvation is coming to the earth from the Jews and it is now here, and has been here for almost 2,000 years and the period of "whosoever will may accept the free ticket into the world to come" through Jesus is drawing to a close.
Save yourself from this untoward generation before it is too late. For who knows what tomorrow may bring to each one of us?
Be blessed.
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doGon
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But a life that is created by chance, and natural selection, can have no inherent or objective purpose or meaning. Instead, such a life can only have a self-assigned, subjective meaning
And why couldn't this be reality? Cause you don't like it? Truth isn't a democracy, it isn't a vote, or just want you want to be true...Why does there have to be an objective meaning to life?
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A non-objective, self-assigned meaning is purely imaginary!
How do you know this 'God-assigned' objective reality isn't imaginary? How do you know it isn't simply just another way of trying to find meaning in this absurd universe and life?
Oh, and I can play that game too.... Ex-Christian
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Caretaker
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Member # 36
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posted
Ex-Atheist
In an atheistic philosophy, there are certain things that concern the reality of life that must be accepted as illusion because, without God, that is the only thing they can be. We live our lives as if they have a real and genuine purpose. Most people will say that their lives have meaning, regardless of their philosophy. But a life that is created by chance, and natural selection, can have no inherent or objective purpose or meaning. Instead, such a life can only have a self-assigned, subjective meaning. A non-objective, self-assigned meaning is purely imaginary! It is a subjective opinion of what can only be a subjective reality. Conversely, a life created by design and a designer, such as the one described in Christianity, is given an objective purpose; its meaning is genuine and inherent. We may have different, subjective opinions as to what that purpose is, but these are subjective opinions concerning an objective reality.
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A Servant of Christ,
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16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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doGon
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Morality is not black and white like it is in the Bible. It is much more complicated. Do you believe you should follow the ten commandments ALL the time? Should you NEVER lie or steal? I can give you many scenarios where it would be perfectly good to lie or steal, etc.
This is my only basis for morality: don't harm other people against their will.
I have been hurt before, I know what it feels like, and I would prefer not to feel that way. Therefore, since I know how it feels, I chose to not put that feeling upon others. Not becuase God says not to, but because of empathy...And I hope that other people will try and do the same and not put that same feeling on me. Does this mean that EVERYONE will do this? no. But I don't think I need to argue too much that this kind of society is better than the alternative....
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TB125
Advanced Member
Member # 2450
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posted
DoGon,
You indicate that quote:
I can be good because there are good reasons to be good.
Yet you don't believe in any god.
What or who is it that sets any standard for what is "good" in your own rational understand of what is? What or who is it that causes you to think that you are "good" or that you can be "good"? How "good" would you be if you didn't have many of the things that enable you to be as comfortable as you probably are? How disciplined would you be to resist the impulse to steal if you were really hungry? How peaceful would you be if you were really being mistreated or physically abused?
You indicate that quote:
living in a society where people don't steal is a much better society to live in...
What makes it "better"? Why isn't the "society" or the societies in which we live free from those who steal?
Of course that are a lot more serious challenges to what is "good" than stealing, such as extensive human suffering and injustice.
If you seek to answer these questions, I invite you to read chapter 1 of Lee Strobel's book on "The Case for Faith" (Zondervan Publishing House, 2000) in which he examines the challenging problems of the existence of evil and suffering and the existence of God.
I invite you to really investigate your "rational" assumptions. I don't think that you have.
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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doGon
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My point with Shakepseare is some of his work isnt complete. Some parts of his plays are simply gone, lost. The Bible is still complete 2000+ yrs later.
The Bible is complete? A group of men got together (I think around 300 AD, but im not sure about that), and decided what was going to be in the Bible, and what was going to be left out....
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shadowmaker
Advanced Member
Member # 3696
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posted
My point with Shakepseare is some of his work isnt complete. Some parts of his plays are simply gone, lost. The Bible is still complete 2000+ yrs later.
Never said you werent welcome. Just curious why come to a Christian message board if you already have made up your mind. Most of the time, when people do this its to just be a "troll".
Posts: 272 | Registered: Jul 2004
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doGon
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TB125, I guess I'm not too clear as to what I should be getting out of your website...I don't believe there is a heaven to get into...
In the post right above this one you claim that I do indeed have faith...Let me just clarify what my definition of faith is...Faith is believing in something despite the lack of evidence for it. If there is no evidence for something, then I don't believe in it. That doesn't mean that whatever this thing is that I dont believe in isn't indeed true, but until there is evidence to support whatever the thing is, I won't have an active belief in it. Moving on....
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You appear to be saying that you are smart enough to know that all of the religions of the world are false and that their claims for their various gods are "empty", and that you can be "good" on your own without any fear of some divine punishment.
I think that it takes a lot of faith to make such statements. But such faith is an arrogant faith in your own intellect and goodness, neither of which you can prove in any rational demonstration!
I am not claiming that I KNOW that every religion is false. But I am saying that because there are so many religions, it seems pretty reasonable to say that we have no idea, if there even is a God, which religion is correct. If we had any true solid evidence of one religion over the other, then there would be far fewer religions and sects of religions.
You, however are claiming this knowledge that all these other religions besides Christianity is false, because you have made the leap of actually picking one of them....You are an atheist towards all of those other religions besides Christianity. I am an atheist towards them as well, but I am also an atheist towards your religion....
To Kindgo's 2nd post...
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But many of the things we place as most important in our lives--love, joy, happiness, forgiveness, friendship, and beauty--are essentially impossible to prove
I would disagree, I think you can prove these things, however you then get into the problems of defining each of them in order to prove them, and I agree that it can get a little muddy when this is attempted....
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The same is true with my relationship with the Lord.
There's quite a big difference between the relationship you have with a friend, and the relationship you have with the Lord....You can see your friend. You can actually have a two way conversation with your friend....It is a one-way conversation with God, and obviously I believe you are talking to no one when you talk to God...
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The Bible has been tested through centuries and has never been disproved. It should be the most revered volume of scientific study that exists
Are you saying that there is no place in which the Bible and science disagree? in a previous post of this topic, I listed just a few examples where they do disagree...
To shadowmaker's post....
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WHY waste your time coming to a Christian message board?
I'm just trying to bring different viewpoints together. When I first started hearing what christians had to say about non-believers, I was really disturbed at the misconceptions and prejudices (not saying you guys have them), and I want to try and quell them as best I can by actually putting forth what we believe, instead of letting your pastors tell you a skewed perspective of non-believers. However, if i'm not welcome, I will leave....
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The Bible has survived thru centuries complete, not even Shakspeares work has done this.
Shakepseare's work isnt still around??? And if you're argument for belief in the Bible is just based on how old it is, there are many books much older than the Bible.....
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You say its a shame I ve lived a fairy tale life if I m wrong. WHY? I still have fun, I still hunt, I still go to races, ride my 4 wheeler, spend time with my friends and family, watch sports, etc. Being a Christian doesnt mean you have to live a dull boring life.
Your absolutely right. I didn't mean your WHOLE life...
Sorry for the long post.
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