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Topic: The church building
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epouraniois
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posted
Amen David. ref the personal comments on what is and what is not, seemingly, Scripturally, going on in the buildings. To that, may I add:
REPETITION of doctrine
does not make it truth,
that MAKES IT VANITY:
ACCEPTANCE of a doctrine by the visible church
does not make it truth,
that makes for ECCLESIASTICISM:
AGE of doctrine does not make it truth,
that MAKES FOR TRADITION.
The child of God must have an open mind toward the Lord and His Word, ever willing to cast aside the most cherished of teachings if proved untrue by the Word.
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
Seriously, though, I know you are hitting on a big, big, big, problem, that all of us with the spirit of prophecy (since we value the TRUTH of God's Word more than anything) can sense. That there is a major apostasy with much of the leadership in churches across America. Of course we we told this would be coming in the last days..and will get worse before the antichrist is finally revealed.
I have been in Tennessee now since September and may have just found my first sound, biblically balanced church. I need to go some more to be sure. But what I have seen makes me want to weep. Too many churches without Bibles...Too many churches not undertanding the true concept of being born again and having the certainty about their salvation...too many churches not even giving messages from the Word but spending all their time in "worship" looking for an experience and chasing after a sign...too many churches defining truth by their feelings rather than the Word....too many churches not even offering an invitation or an evagelical message to the lost because they are too busy entertaining their current Christian audience....and on, and on, and on.
But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. And we will declare the Truth boldy and without fear, and without compromise..but may the Lord show me how to do this without the frustration I so often feel, so that I not forget the commandment of love that I am to have for all.
Tracy I saw you posted the above on another thread and it is pretty much want I am talking about.
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Hey David: Clean out your PM Box Bro. I have a web question for you and your box is full!! ![[type]](graemlins/type.gif) ![[roll on floor]](graemlins/6.gif)
It is clean now. Thanks for reminding me.
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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I think you are reaching, David. To what end, I can't be sure.
Well as I have stated several times and you don't seem to understand. The end I am reaching for is how to best serve our Lord Jesus Christ with the resources he has given us. It is all about Him and not about our buildings. There are way to many people that need help but don't get it because of the buildings. If the church (the body of believers not the building) don't put Jesus back as number one they will lead many astray. When you have a team of people that are suppost to be elders an deacons, but they are not even saved running what is called a church, then you get what we have so many of in the USA. Country clubs that are devoted to themselves. I don't think the Lord ever intended for a handful of people to only talk and tell 1000's of people what they think the bible means. They are more like brain washing people with the wrong messages and the people never come to know Jesus personnlly because they think it is the pastors job to teach them when it is really the Holy Spirit that should be teaching them when they study their bible. Most people setting in the pews don't know if the pastor is teaching them the truth or not.
That is because un-saved people are running too many of what is referred to as the church.
Why? Because of traditions of man, not because they are following the New Testament.
I know that there may be some Godly people meeting in some of these buildings, but I don't think it is very many.
And yes I knew when I started this thread that people would be offended because they don't know anything other then what they have been taught and most of it is tradition.
But I do pray that maybe someone will get into the word of God and see something is amiss. What is wrong and why does the body of believers seem to be in a very deep sleep.
Have you ever wonderd about the following.
Why do we "dress up" for church?
Why does the pastor preach a sermon every week?
Why do we have pulpits and pews?
Why do we have church building, steeples, choirs, and seminaries?
Where did these things come from?
The, "because we have alway done it this way" does not cut it for me. It don't seem to be working. Maybe it is because these things orgin was started in pagan culture long after the death of the apostles.
I just hope some people wake up before it is to late. We have way too many people lost in church.
www.lostinchurch.com
I am not against having a place to worship. I am just very say that most of the places have taken their eyes off of their first love and put it on the building. The first commandment is to have no other gods before me. That includes the building, traditions, programs, trying to find the right pastor that can keep the people happy, etc....
And no you did not show me where it is in the bible that they had a certain building where they all when on Sunday morning and one person took over the show and preached at them and the peoples mouths where shut.
If you are hard core in tradition, the only way you see the bible is by the way you were brought up in tradition.
But that does not mean it is biblical.
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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trafield
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quote:
Some of the most enriching and spiritually rewarding and even effective time that we have spent was spent in a small group of 4 couples who met weekly in the homes of each other to study God's word, pray, and fellowship. We without any effort or even initiative on our part came to find ourselves praying... real spiritual warfare for our community as we each brought seen needs or concerns to the group... this happened naturally. We came to find our selves ministering to each other's needs... material needs... naturally and without prompting...
Linda,
That is awesome! But you don't think there are other churches of various sizes in church buildings with people doing the same things?
There are...I know, because I came from one.
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
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trafield
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quote:
As you quoted: “that when you come together as a church” only means that there were more then two or three gathered in the name of Jesus. Church does not mean a building. And yes I am sure some people had larger homes then others so they often meet in homes other then their own. So when they wanted to meet with other believers, I would think they had to leave their own house and go to someone else’s, or have others come to theirs.
I think you are reaching, David. To what end, I can't be sure. But what is the difference if there is a church on every corner, or a house on every corner. I guess I do not get your point.
The fact remains there are alot of churches that have made major impact in giving and sending missionaries around the world.
I gave the evidence that you requested, if you do not see it that way, then that's fine with me.
There is also no biblical evidence to having electrical guitars in worship, and it it this kind of thinking that keeps some churches from allowing comtemporary music in their worship services.
The fact is we have buildings, let's use them to worship the Lord! Better that than another liquor store or topless bar.
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
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epouraniois
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The translators basically did an outstanding job. There are however, a few words that just leave us with an unBiblical, and therefore unsound, impress. Foundation in Eph 1.4 should have been 'overthrow' for ex. Moreover, to avoid repetition, the word hope has been translated grace, but this would go unnoted if one studies only the English, the meanings do change however and care should be taken to observe these instances even if they are not to be fully depricated. The word church may be the largest stumbling block for the truly interested student to unlearn, as it is vastly misrepresenting the truths of Scripture:
CHURCH (Gr. EKKLESIA).
1. The Greek word ekklesia means assembly, or a gathering of called-out ones. It is used seventy times in the Septuagint for the Hebrew kahal (from which latter we have our word call), rendered in Sept. by sunagoge and ekklesia. (*1) This latter word occ. in N.T. 115 times (36 in plural), and is always transl. "church" except in Acts 19:32, 39, 41 (assembly - because it was a riot, else they would have tranlsated it church here as well).
2. kahal is used (1) of Israel as a People called out from the rest of the nations (Gen. 28:3); (2) of the tribal council of Simeon and Levi, those called out from each tribe (Gen. 49:6); (3) of an assembly of Israelites called out for worship or any other purpose (Deut. 18:16; 31:30. Josh. 8:35. Judg. 21:8); (4) any assembly of worshippers as a congregation (Ps. 22:22, 25. Ekklesia in Matt. 16:18; 18:17. 1Cor. 14:19, 35, &c.); (5) the equivalent ekklesia of separate assemblies in different localities (Acts 5:11; 8:3. 1Cor. 4:17, &c.); (6) of the guild or "union" of Ephesian craftsmen (Acts 19:32, 41), and v. 39 (the lawful assembly). Finally, the special Pauline usage of ekklesia differs from all these. Other assemblies consisted of called-out ones from Jews, or from Gentiles (Acts 18:22), but this new body is of called-out ones from both.
3. Our word, the way WE use it "church" (*2) has an equally varied usage. It is used (1) of any congregation; (2) of a particular church (England, or Rome, &c); (3) of the ministry of a church; (4) of the building in which the congregation assembles; (5) of Church as distinct from Chapel; (6) of the church as distinct from the world, and lastly, it is used in the Pauline sense, of the body of Christ.
4. It is of profound importance to distinguish the usage of the word in each case, else we may be reading "the church which was in the wilderness" into the Prison Epistles, although we are expressly told that there is neither Jew nor Gentile in the "church which is His body". And when our Lord said "On this rock I will build my church" (Matt. 16:18), those who heard His words could not connect them with the "mystery" which was "hid in God" and had not then been made known to the sons of men. Confusion follows our reading what refers to Israel in the past or the future into the present dispensation. Readers are referred to the various notes in the connexions.
5. The word where qualified by other terms occurs thus: --
Church of God; Acts 20:28. 1Cor. 1:2; 10:32; 11:16 (pl.), 22; 15:9. 2Cor. 1:1. Gal. 1:13. 1Thess. 2:14 (pl.). 2Thess. 1:4 (pl). 1Tim. 3:5, 15 (c. of the living God).
Churches of Christ; Rom. 16:16.
Church in .. house; Rom. 16:5. 1Cor. 16:19. Col. 4:15. Philem. 2.
Churches of the Gentiles; Rom. 16:4.
Churches of Galatia; 1Cor. 16:1. Gal. 1:2. Of Asia; 1Cor. 16:19. Of Macedonia; 2Cor. 8:1. Of Judaea; Gal. 1:22. Of the Laodiceans; Col. 4:16. Of the Thessalonians; 1Thess. 1:1; 2Thess .1:1.
Church of the firstborn (pl); Heb. 12:23.
Church in Ephesus, Smyrna, &c. Rev. 2 and 3; and
Churches; Rev. 22:16.
(*1) kahal occurs in the Old Testament 123 times; congregation eighty-six, assembly seventeen, company seventeen, and multitude three times. The Sept. uses sunagoge and ekklesia as practically synonymous terms. But the sunagoge concerns the bringing together of the members of an existing society or body excluding all others, whereas the ekklesia calls and invites all men, including outsiders everywhere, to join it. Sunagoge being permanently associated with Jewish worship, was dropped by the early Christians in favor of ekklesia as of wider import.
(*2) Is derived from the Gr. kuriakos, of or belonging to the Lord, house (Gr. oikos) being understood. It comes to us through A.S. circe (Scottish kirk).
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Eduardo Grequi
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When in discourse of human events and manners of community a place of central importance is the church ASSEMBLY. AN INAMINATE OBJECT COULD NEVER BE CALLED SO IMPORTANT THAT WITHOUT IT-FELLOWSHIP WOULD NOT HAPPENED.
As I have studied church history, I have come to realize that a Church BUILDING is where people meet together to fellowship and commune. Now the question THAT SHOOULD BE ASKED IS about the assembly of believers and the connerstone that sparks spiritual growth, WHEN JESUS IS MADE THE CONNERSTONE OF ITS DISCIPLINE -THE ASSEMBLY WILL GROW .
WE ARE REMINDED IN Romans 12:1&2
TO PRESENT OUR BODIES AS A TEMPLE TREAT IT CORRECTLY FOR WITHIN IT ABIDES THE SPIRIT.
CHURCHES ARE APART OF THE PROPHECIES OF THINGS TO COME. 7 CHURCHES OF ASIA.
IN A SIMPLE MIND, A CHURCH BUILDING OR A TEMPLE ARE THE SAME, only in prejudice do people divide concerning this. ECCLESIA,IGLESIA, TEMPLO, KIRCHE, AMSHOHUNIN; MOSKET etc... ARE WORDS used in different languages to name a CHURCH BUILDING.
I DO NOT BELIEVE A CHURCH BUILDING IS THE HENDERENCE, BUT THE NON-SCRIPTURAL CHURCH DOGMA THAT SOME CHURCH FAITHS ARE ESTABLISHED ON ARE THE HENDERNCE TO PEOPLE'S FAITH.
THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS FULL OF EXTRA-BIBLICAL DOGMA, SO DOES EACH DENOMINATIONS WITHIN CHRISTIANDOM CONTAIN NON-SCRIPTURAL DOGMA. EVEN WITHIN JUDIASM THERE IS EXTRA-BIBLICAL DOGMA.
YOU HAVE TO SEPERATE THE CHURCH BUILDING WHICH IS ONLY A GATHERING POINT, FROM THE ASSEMBLY OF THE BRETHERN TOGETHER. WHETHER IT IS IN A PARK, A RUN DOWN BUILDING, IN A CAR, AT MCDONALD'S. JESUS EVEN ACTUALLY SAID, "When 2 or more are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst"
The Church Assembly is the gathering of believers, the place where they do it is called a Church Building.
Playing Church- Sort of reminds of Tammy Wynettes song, ' I DON NA WANT TO PLAY HOUSE BECAUSE WHEN SHE PLAYED HOUSE MY DADDY SAID GOOD BY!
People who are gathered together to grow in Christ will flourish, and people who come together just to be a show piece- will be sitting pretty, but in the end will miss the rapture.
Did you know- Christians in general who just like getting together will select a Church Building that looks like a Mansion. Look at Dr Fuller's Church on TV. Now that building looks like a Chrystal Catherdaol.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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On this subject. I do not think that there is Biblical evidence to support the building. I have often thought that Jesus would be appauled to see the money spent on maintianing these buildings that sit empty all week while people among the congregations cannot pay their bills or buy medicine and are in debt and one paycheck from homelessness and people sleep in the streets.
The place of gathering certainly was never in the NT a place to bring the sinner into in hopes of hearing the Gospel and being saved.
But if you say this in public, the wolves will howl and they will try to hang you from the nearest tree or call you a cult and try and lynch you for being against church!
Some of the most enriching and spiritually rewarding and even effective time that we have spent was spent in a small group of 4 couples who met weekly in the homes of each other to study God's word, pray, and fellowship. We without any effort or even initiative on our part came to find ourselves praying... real spiritual warfare for our community as we each brought seen needs or concerns to the group... this happened naturally. We came to find our selves ministering to each other's needs... material needs... naturally and without prompting... we also found ourselves seeing and ministering to needs of others that we saw in our own church that were not being seen or addressed as part of regular church business and we have a small close knit very generous and spirit led church that does look out for each other. My husband was out of work for over a year and we never missed a house payment lost our utilities or were without food in that whole year and I was not working but homeschooling. Our church cared for us, encouraged us, filledour freezer, stopped in and paid our electric bills rtc...and many of the men gave my husband work... but even that does not compare to the ministry that this small group of just 4 couples did. We were so much closer and so much more effective and so much the more led by the spirit and our study and worship time was very rich.The way we evolved into powerful prayer for our community still has me in awe at God's working. We are not now meeting and I long for that kind of being a church again. I believe it happens in the absence of buildings and all the trappings that go with them from budgets to fund them to programs, and events that fill them.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Hey David: Clean out your PM Box Bro. I have a web question for you and your box is full!!
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
quote:
Why I posted this quote is, I wanted to know if someone could refute this statement, "There does not exist a shred of Biblical support for the church building."
I ment refute it with Bible references in the New Testament. I don't care what men's tradition is, only what God actually told us.
Another thing, David...
If you want direct biblical evidence in the Bible that there were seperate gathering places for believers other than their homes,
then I believe 1 Corinthians 11:17-22 is a good example for you.
1 Corinthians 11:17-22
17In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval. 20When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, 21for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. 22Don't you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? Certainly not!
There is obviously a distinction here between those who should remain home if they want to eat like pigs and those who are at church to respectfully take Communion.
First I really would like some direct biblical evidence in the bible where is says they built a building to GO TO CHURCH.
As you quoted: “that when you come together as a church” only means that there were more then two or three gathered in the name of Jesus. Church does not mean a building. And yes I am sure some people had larger homes then others so they often meet in homes other then their own. So when they wanted to meet with other believers, I would think they had to leave their own house and go to someone else’s, or have others come to theirs.
The point of this passage is that the purpose for which they had met was resulting in revelry and was no brotherly. He did not like it because they did not wait for the group and it was humiliating to God’s poor.
Sort of like the rich who tithe the most are the ones that run a lot of today’s church building, if they are saved or not.
If you really want the meaning of the passage, it is about the believers coming together to eat the Lord’s Supper. It was not just a get together to have someone preach at you.
Now it is not done like it was then because of tradition. It use to be a full meal a Christian banquet.
Every community has a set of shared memories that bind it together. Typically, these shared memories are reviewed and celebrated during a meal. The Jews, for example, had many different feasts where they remembered and celebrated their rich heritage. Americans do the same when they celebrate Thanksgiving. The Lord's Supper was a covenant meal that bound the early Christians together with a common memory. In the first century, the Lord's Supper was a square meal. In fact, it was a full-blown banquet. It was a celebration taken with a spirit of joy and thanksgiving. Further, it was accompanied by the mutual sharing of the Body of Christ.
Both the Catholic and Protestant camps have reduced the meal to a ritual presided by a clergyman. The meal aspect, the spirit of celebration, and the mutual sharing have all been evacuated out of it.
The word "tradition" has a bad connotation today, and this is not entirely unjust. There are many who would like to bind their own opinions and traditions ("We've always done it this way.") on the churches. This problem was around even in Jesus' day. He had to rebuke the Pharisees and scribes because they were invalidating God's word for the sake of their tradition (Matthew 15:1-9; Mark 7:1- 13). Paul warns the Colossians against those who would have them follow the tradition of men rather than Christ (Colossians 2:8).
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:
Originally posted by Rogg:
Jesus thought enough of the temple as a place of worship to drive the merchants out.
Matthew 21:12
12.Then Jesus went into the temple of God and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves.
Yes that is because this was while Jesus was still alive and He had not died to make Him self the temple which lives in us now.
You are referring to the Old Testament temple. Which Jesus said He would tear down and rebuild in 3 days.
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quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
David, I disagree strongly with the statement that a church building is a hinderance. The building is just a building.
Will answer below:
>>> David, I disagree strongly with the statement that a church building is a hinderance. The building is just a building.
The church is the body of believers.
So if there is a hinderance in the body, it lies with individuals, not with wood, stone, and mortar.
Hebrews 10:25 shows that we are not to give up meeting together. This implies a continually gathering of believers to fellowship and worship. Sure that can also be in a living room...but guess what... that living room becomes a church!
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David > True, the living room becomes a church. But this did not say to go out and waste a ton of money on a building that sits empty most of the time. So this is a good point, that we don’t need a building or at least one on every corner.
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>>> Also, as you know, John is instructed to write letters to the seven chruches in Asia Minor which also have seven angels over them (Revelation 1:20)...hardly showing a lack of support for churches, woudldn't you say?
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David > Very true, but where does it mention the buildings???
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>>> And no where in these letters are they told to get out of their buildings, but to repent of the things they were doing that had nothing to do with Christ, and to turn their attention back to their first love which is Jesus.
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David > Amen, that is because there were no building to get out of. And repent of the man made traditions and get back to following Jesus Christ.
Again where does it say they are in a building????
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>>> The statement "He who has and ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches," that Jesus used repeatedly in Revelation shows that these letters were written to the individual chruches and to the body of believers in them.
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David >True, the churches are the body of believers, not a building.
The below is also a quote from the Pagan Christianity book I am referring to:
No where in the New Testament do we find the terms "church" (ekklesia), "temple," or "house of God" used to refer to a building. To the ears of a first-century Christian, calling a building an ekklesia (church) would be like calling a woman a skyscraper!
The first recorded use of the word ekklesia (church) to refer to a Christian meeting place was penned around A.D. 190 by Clement of Alexandria (150-215). Clement is the first person to use the phrase "go to church"-which was a foreign thought to the first-century believers." (You cannot go to something you are! Throughout the NT, ekklesia always refers to an assembly of people, not a place.)"
Even so Clement’s reference to "going to church" is not a reference to attending a special building for worship. It rather refers to a private home that the second-century Christians used for their meetings." Christians did not erect special buildings for worship until the Constantinian era in the fourth century." Neither did they have a special priestly caste that was set apart to serve God. Instead, every believer recognized that he or she was a priest unto God.
The early Christians also did away with sacrifices. For they understood that the true and final Sacrifice (Christ) had come. The only sacrifices they offered were the spiritual sacrifices of praise and thanksgiving."
When Roman Catholicism evolved in the fourth to the sixth centuries, it absorbed the religious practices of both paganism and Judaism. It set up a professional priestcraft. It erected sacred buildings." And it turned the Lord's Supper into a mysterious sacrifice.
Following the path of the pagans, Catholicism adopted the practice of burning incense and having vestal (sacred) virgins." Thankfully, the Protestants dropped the sacrificial use of the Lord's Supper, the burning of incense, and the vestal virgins. But they retained the priestly caste (the clergy) as well as the sacred building.
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>>> Furthermore, the statement that a church building is a hinderance, is a slap in the face to many churches in the current days and in the past in various parts of the world that have suffered terrible persecution for their willingness to worship and show their love for Chrsit in public.
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David >I agree that may seem a slap in the face when people would rather follow their traditions rather then what the bible actually says. And I know that most all don’t know any better because they never looked into it. But as far as anyone being persecuted by staying in these building, I can not agree with. It seems that is where it stays and when they really get out in public, the mouth is closed and noting is said. That is why the USA is like it is today. It stays in the building and not in the streets.
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>>> Not to mention the many that have accepted Christ while in a church building.
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David > What about the many that never accepted Christ because it is all done in the building and not out in public where others may hear of the good news?
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>>> So yes, I will refute this statement, and say again...if there is a problem, it is with the individual, not the building.
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David > First I ask for proof from the bible in the New Testament:
“Why I posted this quote is, I wanted to know if someone could refute this statement, "There does not exist a shred of Biblical support for the church building."
I meant refute it with Bible references in the New Testament. I don't care what men's tradition is, only what God actually told us.”
I started this thread because I am seeking the truth and really can not understand why the church in the USA has gone so far wrong. Why has it mostly become a country club. I am quoting from a book I am reading because I wanted to see what others know from the bible that would make this not true. I know the church building traditions, but I am only interested what the bible says and trying to sort out the traditions from the truth. Seems like the traditions are not working and the churches are getting more and more corrupt.
Please don’t take it that I am not wanting people to gather in the name of Jesus Christ, I do. I am really wanting to know what they have forgotten that Jesus is the reason we meet and not to have a social club. Something is amiss and I am just thinking about it and wanted input from others.
It is really looking to me that most of the traditions that goes on in the institutionalized churches came from Roman Catholicism.
So please help me look for the truth and open our eyes to what the bible actually tells us and not what man brought into it. If I want to follow man I would just forget about following Jesus Christ altogether, BUT I AM NOT. I shall follow Jesus Christ as it is all about Him and not us.
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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Originally posted by trafield:
David,
Off-topic but I have to ask...
I have sent you a couple of emails since moving here to Chuckey, TN from Florida asking if we could meet. Is there a reason you do not respond?
Tracy
Well I would guess it is I never got them. Email me at
david at whitedoveevent dot com
and an we will discuss it.
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Had to write it that way, I am tire of all the spam. grin
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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epouraniois
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Exo 20:25 And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.
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trafield
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David,
Off-topic but I have to ask...
I have sent you a couple of emails since moving here to Chuckey, TN from Florida asking if we could meet. Is there a reason you do not respond?
Tracy
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
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trafield
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quote:
Why I posted this quote is, I wanted to know if someone could refute this statement, "There does not exist a shred of Biblical support for the church building."
I ment refute it with Bible references in the New Testament. I don't care what men's tradition is, only what God actually told us.
Another thing, David...
If you want direct biblical evidence in the Bible that there were seperate gathering places for believers other than their homes,
then I believe 1 Corinthians 11:17-22 is a good example for you.
1 Corinthians 11:17-22
17In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval. 20When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, 21for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. 22Don't you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? Certainly not!
There is obviously a distinction here between those who should remain home if they want to eat like pigs and those who are at church to respectfully take Communion.
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
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trafield
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David, I disagree strongly with the statement that a church building is a hinderance. The building is just a building.
The church is the body of believers.
So if there is a hinderance in the body, it lies with individuals, not with wood, stone, and mortar.
Hebrews 10:25 shows that we are not to give up meeting together. This implies a continually gathering of believers to fellowship and worship. Sure that can also be in a living room...but guess what... that living room becomes a church!
Also, as you know, John is instructed to write letters to the seven chruches in Asia Minor which also have seven angels over them (Revelation 1:20)...hardly showing a lack of support for churches, woudldn't you say?
And no where in these letters are they told to get out of their buildings, but to repent of the things they were doing that had nothing to do with Christ, and to turn their attention back to their first love which is Jesus.
The statement "He who has and ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches," that Jesus used repeatedly in Revelation shows that these letters were written to the individual chruches and to the body of believers in them.
Furthermore, the statement that a church building is a hinderance, is a slap in the face to many churches in the current days and in the past in various parts of the world that have suffered terrible persecution for their willingness to worship and show their love for Chrsit in public. Not to mention the many that have accepted Christ while in a church building.
So yes, I will refute this statement, and say again...if there is a problem, it is with the individual, not the building.
God bless you,
Tracy
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Rogg
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Jesus thought enough of the temple as a place of worship to drive the merchants out.
Matthew 21:12
12.Then Jesus went into the temple of God and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves.
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in the letters following the close of Acts and the resulting judicial blindness prophetically quoted {Is. 6:9-10} for the third time, the mystery is revealed to be {Eph. 1} "the church which is His body" having "all spiritual blessings in heavenly places". This we learn in the first 3 chapters, the instructional chapters noted as doctrinal. In ch. 4 comes the practical section where one learns the resultant walk of one who has mastered the first three chapters of instruction.
What will one who has mastered the first three chapters be found doing?
Eph 4:3 Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Then this unity is specified, as we see it is seven fold, with Christ at the center:
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Noting that not one of these components of unity which v.3 states the worthy walk would be found guarding is on earth. No, this unity is based upon what was learned in the first three chapters. This is of an heavenly calling stated to be "far above all".
Prior to this, we learn that the god of this world is Satan, which is reinforced in Eph. 2, where we again find that Satan is in power here, and called the prince of the power of the air.
It does seem that whatever one may build here, it is the work of man, building man's world on earth, that this building up of things on earth, no matter how rational, serves the god of this world.
Later in the Prison Epistles, Paul states that he delievers up to Satan Hymenaeus and Alexander, that they may learn not to blaspheme 1Ti 1:20. Following hard on this is the fact that the believers in Asia all turned away from the revelation of the mystery, which is the church and the heavenly calling of this one body, again, making reference to Satan in like vein of this thread:
1Ti 5:15
For some are already turned aside after Satan.
By the time this was written, there were already the warnings of phylosophy that seemed to be overtaking many, causing them to not hold fast to the head, which warning the man of practice in the doctrine revealed in these Prison Epistles hold fast to:
Guarding the unity of the Spirit:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
the sleight of men, where the word sleight comes the word for playing dice, but here it is w/the word of truth:
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into Him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Eph 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Eph 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
It is very disturbing what I see on tv, just give them money and God will bless you, seems to be the theme. Now I ask, isn't money part of the things on this earth, or is it the spiritual blessings in heavenly places where God quickens the believer even now, bringing truth by the washing of the water of the word? Eph 5:26
I always thought it was Israel who could be measured of their faith by material blessings, beinig in stock and in store and in the earth.
Again, what does one look like who is practicing the instructional portion of Eph. 1-3?:
Eph 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Well, what is true holiness then?
Joh 4 has Christ speaking on this,saying they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth for the Father seeketh such to worship Him.
I'm afraid I have to agree that building up the things of this world have little to do with keeping the unity of the Spirit, for it says nothing of creating or making this unity, but to guard that unity which already exists in the heavenly places far abvove all.
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant...exhort with all longsuffering and DOCTRINE.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
itching ears, here, lends to the fact that people will hoard together to hear, not the truth, but that which sounds good to them and supports what they desire to hear.
2Ti 1:15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me...
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Rogg
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One thing about having a church building is it shows itself to be an almost public place to which an outsider could comfortably go to in a time of need, where a house church would not have the inviting atmosphere. The idea of going to "Gods house" as opposed to going to an "individuals house".
Church attendance would not be as great if it not for the Synagogues or Temples.
Though the word tells us we are the temple of the Lord, living sacrifices acceptable to God. We are instructed to meet at a certain place, not neccessarily a building.
1 Corinthians 11:18-20
18.For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it.
19.For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you.
20.Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper.
Acts 20:7
7.Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight.
Acts 5:42
42.And daily in the temple, and in every house, they did not cease teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.
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Kindgo
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http://www.thebereancall.org/Newsletter/html/2004/mar04.php
The Seeker-Friendly Way of Doing Church
T. A. McMahon
The “seeker-friendly,” or “seeker-sensitive,” movement currently taking a host of evangelical churches by storm is an approach to evangelizing through application of the latest marketing techniques. Typically, it begins with a survey of the lost (referred to by a leading church in this trend as the “unchurched,” or “unchurched Harry and Mary”). This survey questions the unchurched about the things their nearby place of worship might offer that would motivate them to attend. Results of the questionnaire indicate areas of potential changes in the church’s operations and services that would be effective in order to attract the unchurched, keep them attending, and win them to Christ. Those who have developed this marketing approach guarantee the growth of the churches that conscientiously follow their proven methods. Practically speaking, it works!
Two churches are seen as models for this movement: Willow Creek Community Church (near Chicago), pastored by Bill Hybels, and Saddleback Valley Community Church (south of Los Angeles), pastored by Rick Warren. Their influence is stunning. Willow Creek has formed its own association of churches, with 9,500 members. Last year, 100,000 church lead-ers attended at least one Willow Creek leadership conference. More than 250,000 pastors and church leaders from over 125 countries have attended Rick Warren’s Purpose Driven Church seminars. More than 60,000 pastors subscribe to his weekly email newsletter.
We visited Willow Creek Community Church not too long ago, and it seems to have spared no expense in its mission to attract the masses. Looking past the swans gliding across a mirror lake, one sees what could be mistaken for a corporate headquarters or a very upscale shopping mall. Just off the sanctuary is a large bookstore and an extensive eating area supplied by a food court with five different vendors. A jumbotron screen allows an overflow crowd or those enjoying a meal to view the proceedings in the main sanctuary. The sanctuary itself is spacious and high tech, complete with three large screens and state-of-the-art sound and lighting systems for multimedia, drama, and musical presentations.
While impressive, Willow Creek is not unique among mega-churches with a reach-the-lost-through-whatever-turns-them-on mindset. Mega-churches across the country have added bowling alleys, NBA regulation basketball courts with bleachers, exercise gyms and spas, locker rooms, auditoriums for concerts and dramatic productions, and Starbucks and McDonald’s franchises—all for the furtherance of the gospel. Or so it is claimed. Although it’s true that such churches are packing them in, that’s not the whole story in evaluating the success of this latest trend in “doing church.”
The stated goal of seeker-friendly churches is reaching the lost. Though biblical and praiseworthy, the same cannot be said for the methods used in attempting to achieve that goal. Let’s begin with marketing as a tactic for reaching the lost. Fundamentally, marketing has to do with profiling consumers, ascertaining what their “felt needs” are, and then fashioning one’s product (or its image) to appeal to the targeted customer’s desires. The hoped-for result is that the consumer buys or “buys into” the product. George Barna, whom Christianity Today calls “the church’s guru of growth,” claims that such an approach is essential for the church in our market-driven society. Evangelical church-growth leaders are adamant that the marketing approach can be applied–and they have employed it–without compromising the gospel. Really?
First of all, the gospel and, more significantly, the person of Jesus Christ do not fit into any marketing strategy. They are not “products” to be “sold.” They cannot be refashioned or image-adjusted to appeal to the felt needs of our consumer-happy culture. Any attempt to do so compromises to some degree the truth of who Christ is and what He has done for us. For example, if the lost are considered consumers and a basic marketing “commandment” says that the customer must reign supreme, then whatever may be offensive to the lost must be discarded, revamped, or downplayed. Scripture tells us clearly that the message of the Cross is “foolishness to them that are perishing” and that Christ himself is a “rock of offense” (1 Cor 1:18; 1 Pt 2:8). Some seeker-friendly churches, therefore, seek to avoid this “negative aspect” by making the temporal benefits of becoming a Christian their chief selling point. Although that appeals to our gratification-oriented generation, it is neither the gospel nor the goal of a believer’s life in Christ.
Secondly, if you want to attract the lost on the basis of what might interest them, for the most part you will be appealing to and accommodating their flesh. Wittingly or unwittingly, that seems to be the standard operating procedure of seeker-friendly churches. They mimic what’s popular in our culture: top-forty and performance-style music, theatrical productions, stimulating multi-media presentations, and thirty-minutes-or-less positive messages. The latter, more often than not, are topical, therapeutic, and centered in self-fulfillment–how the Lord can meet one’s needs and help solve one’s problems.
Those concerns may be lost on increasing numbers of evangelical pastors but, ironically, not on some secular observers. In his perceptive book This Little Church Went to Market (see resource materials), Pastor Gary Gilley notes that the professional marketing journal American Demo-graphics recognizes that people are
...into spirituality, not religion….Behind this shift is the search for an experiential faith, a religion of the heart, not the head. It’s a religious expression that downplays doctrine and dogma, and revels in direct experience of the divine–whether it’s called the ‘Holy Spirit’ or ‘cosmic consciousness’ or the ‘true self.’ It is practical and personal, more about stress reduction than salvation, more therapeutic than theological. It’s about feeling good, not being good. It’s as much about the body as the soul….Some marketing gurus have begun calling it ‘the experience industry.’” (pp. 20-21)
There’s another item that many pastors seem to be missing in their excitement over “growing your church through attracting the lost.” Although numbers seem to rule in this seeker-friendly mania (an amazing 841 churches in this country have reached the “mega” category, with 2,000 to 25,000 weekend attendees), few have realized that the sizeable increase in church attendance is not due to the influx of the unchurched. During the last 70 years, the percentage of this country’s population attending church has been relatively constant at about 43 percent. A spike of 49 percent in 1991 (years prior to today’s initial seeker-sensitive enthusiasm) gradually declined, returning to 42 percent in 2002 (www.barna.org). From where, then, do those mega-churches, which have outfitted themselves to accommodate the unchurched, get their members? Mostly from smaller churches that aren’t interested in or that can’t afford the fleshly attractions. And what of the supposed horde of unchurched Harrys and Marys who have been assembled? They constitute a very small part of mega-church congregations. During his year of researching Willow Creek, G.A. Pritchard, in his book Willow Creek Seeker Services (Baker Book House, 1996), estimated that the targeted unchurched made up only between 10 and 15 percent of the 16,000 or so who attended weekend services!
If this percentage is typical among seeker-friendly churches, which likely is the case, a rather disturbing situation has developed. Thousands of churches here and abroad have completely restructured themselves as outreach centers for the unchurched. This, by the way, is not biblical. The church is for the maturing and equipping of the saints, who then go out to reach the lost. Nevertheless, seeker-sensitive churches have turned to entertainment and conveniences in order to attract Harry and Mary and make them feel comfortable in their new church environment. In order to keep them coming back, they have avoided the thorough teaching of Scripture in favor of positive, uplifting messages designed to make them feel good about themselves. As unchurched Harry and Mary continue to attend, they get only a vague hint of biblical truth that might bring conviction of sin and true repentance. Worse yet, they get a psychologized view of themselves that undermines that truth. However, as grievous as that situation is, it doesn’t end there.
The vast majority of those who attend seeker-friendly fellowships profess to be believers. Yet most were drawn to those churches by the same worldly allurements that were meant to entice the unchurched, and they continue to attend, being fed the same biblically anemic diet created for the wooing of unbelievers. At best, they receive the skimmed milk of the Word; at worst, pablum contaminated with “profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called” (1 Tm 6:20). Certainly a church can grow numerically on that basis, but not spiritually. Furthermore, there is no opportunity for believers to mature in the faith in such an environment. In defense of seeker-sensitive churches, some have argued that mid-week services are set apart for discipleship and getting into the meat of Scriptures. If that indeed is the case, it’s a rare exception rather than the rule.
As we’ve noted, most seeker-friendly churches focus much of their time, energy, and resources on accommodating unchurched Harry and Mary. Consequently, week after week, the entire congregation is subjected to a diluted and leavened message. Then, on Wednesday evening, when a fellowship is usually reduced to quarter or a third of its normal size, would it be reasonable to assume that this remnant is served a nourishing meal featuring the meat of the Word, expositional teaching, and an emphasis on sound doctrine and discipleship? Hardly. We’ve yet to find a seeker-friendly church where that takes place. The spiritual meals offered at mid-week services are usually support group meetings and classes for discerning one’s spiritual gifts or going through the latest psycho-babble-ized “Christian” bestseller such as Wild at Heart rather than the study of the Scriptures.
Perhaps the most insidious aspect of the seeker-friendly approach to doing church is an attempt to impress the unchurched by looking to and quoting those regarded as the experts in solving all their mental, emotional, and behavioral problems: psychiatrists and psychologists. Nothing in the history of the church has undermined the truth of the sufficiency of God’s Word for “all things that pertain unto life and godliness” (2 Pt 1:3) more than the introduction of the pseudo-science of psychotherapy. Its thousands of concepts and hundreds of methodologies are unproven, contradictory, unscientific, and thoroughly unbiblical, as we’ve documented in our books and in previous articles. Pritchard observed that at Willow Creek “Hybels not only teaches psychological principles, but often uses the psychological principles as interpretive guides for his exegesis of Scripture….King David had an identity crisis, the apostle Paul encouraged Timothy to do self-analysis, and Peter had a problem with boundary issues. The point is, psychological principles are regularly built into Hybels’ teaching” (p. 156).
During my own visit to Willow Creek, Pastor Hybels gave a message that began with Scripture and addressed the problems that result when people lie. However, he mustered his chief support regarding the harmful consequences of lying from psychiatrist M. Scott Peck, the author of The Road Less Traveled (Simon & Schuster, 1978), who declared in that book (pp. 269-70), “God wants us to become Himself (or Herself or Itself)”!
Saddleback Community Church like-wise is entrenched in the psychothera-peutic. Although claiming to be Christ-centered rather than psychological, it has one of the largest conglomerations of Alcoholics Anonymous-based 12-Step recovery programs in the country. The church sponsors more than a dozen support groups, such as Adult Children of Chemically Addicted, Codependency, Co-Addicted Women in a Relationship with Sexually Addicted Men, Eating Disorders, and so forth. Each group is normally led by someone “in recovery” from the “addiction,” and the resource materials for understanding the “disorder” include books mostly authored by psychiatrists and psychologists (www.celebraterecovery.com). Although “in denial” about his use of“pop psychology,” much of it permeates Rick Warren’s work, including his seven-million bestseller, The Purpose Driven Life, which is largely about self-fulfillment, promotes Celebrate Recovery, and is sprinkled with psych references such as “Samson was co-dependent” (p. 233).
The overriding message from psychologically driven Willow Creek and Saddleback is that the Word of God and the power of the Holy Spirit are insufficient for delivering a person from a habitual sin and for transforming his or her life into one that is fruitful and pleasing to God. Again, what these churches say and do is exported to hundreds of thousands of church leaders around the world.
A large part of the evangelical church has developed a pleasure-laden, cruise ship mentality, but it will result in a spiritual Titanic. Seeker-friendly church pastors (and those tempted to climb aboard) need to get on their knees and read the words of Jesus to the church of the Laodiceans (Rv 3:14-21). They were “rich, and increased with goods,” yet failed to recognize that in God’s eyes, they were “wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.” Jesus, standing outside their church, where they had unwittingly displaced Him, offers them His counsel, the truth of His Word, which alone will enable them to live their lives for His pleasure. There can be nothing better here on earth, and for all eternity. TBC
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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KnowHim
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Yes He Lives I agree.
The very verse that most Pastors use to put the pressure on to give them money, is the very one that they should study.
Notice the context of Malachi-3:8-10: In verse 5, the Lord says that He will judge those who oppress the widow, the fatherless, and the stranger. He says, "So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be a quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me."
The widows, fatherless, and strangers were the rightful recipients of the tithe. Because Israel was withholding her tithes, she was guilty of oppressing these three groups. Herein is the heart of God in Malachi 3:8-10: Oppression to the poor.
But since most of the money taken in by Churches goes to the building and maintenance the widows and the fatherless must depend on the goverment. I have seen so many special offerings because the building has taken all the money that has be given, so they have to give what little they can get in a special offering.
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house.... - Malachi 3:10
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: ... - Luke 16:19-21
I am sure someone will answer for all the money that was wasted and not given out.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. - Matthew 25:41-46
Wonder who He is talking to? the sheep, I don't think so.
I am sure it saddens the Lord when people are in need by hard ship, and they receive the scraps that are left over. If they get anything at all, especally a christian brother or sister in need.
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HE LIVES
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All I know is that God doesn't live in buildings built by hands as it says in acts 17:24.
He lives in His creations, not ours.
Look how much time and money that is put into these buildings instead of putting the time and money in people.
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Why I posted this quote is, I wanted to know if someone could refute this statement, "There does not exist a shred of Biblical support for the church building."
I meant refute it with Bible references in the New Testament. I don't care what men's tradition is, only what God actually told us.
God is who I follow not man.
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quote:
Originally posted by HE LIVES:
Eveything is pre-orchestrated from the worship songs that we sing to the length of the service. Very little seems to be between us and the Lord. Sometimes it feels more like being a religious puppet.
Something like this.
1) be here at this time to start.
2) we will now sing 3 songs
3) Now, sit down
4) Hear sermon for 30 min.
5) Invitation
6) Give offering
7) Go home
I don't know, but sometimes it seems almost robotic.
I feel the need to worship in truth and in spirit like the scripture talks about.
I love the Lord, and I'm not knocking my brothers and sisters in Christ, but I just feel like we're not getting everything that the Lord has for us.
Lord, please help us to better worship you. Help us to worship you in truth and in spirit as your word teaches.
Well if all this takes up three hours you're left with 165 hours a week to worship more freestyle....
I would venture that a detailed look into the Scruptures would reveal a more structured worship that most of us practice or would even think correct. I think a lot of us would be surprised.
Take care
H
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quote:
Originally posted by David:
The church building is a hindrance not a help. It rips at the heart of the Christian faith-a faith that was born in living rooms. Every Sunday morning, you sit in a building which has pagan origins and is built upon pagan philosophy.
There does not exist a shred of Biblical support for the church building. Yet you, dear Christian, continue to pay good money to sanctify your brick and stone. By doing so, you have supported an artificial setting where you are lulled into passivity and prevented from being natural or intimate."' (Even if you are having sweet fellowship in the parking lot, it is squelched once you hit the front door and enter the foyer.)
We are completely unaware of what we lost as Christians when we created the church building. We have become victims of our past. Tradition has shot us down.
The above is quoted from a book I am reading called "Pagan Christianity" The Origins of Our Modern Church Practices by Frank Viola
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Why I posted this quote is, I wanted to know if someone could refute this statement, "There does not exist a shred of Biblical support for the church building. "
He seems to make some very good points in this book.
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Wondering what everyone elses opinion about this subject is?
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This is something so obvious that its easy to miss. Kinda like weekly services. I cant think of an NT command to meet weekly. In fact most of us would rather fight than be forced to keep Sabbath regarless of which day is involved. But meeting weekly is a natural and obvious outgrowth of the ancient system handed down from Moshe.
So is having a meeting place. The Temple was the pinacle of the ancient meeting places. Everyone pitched in to help pay for it and the administration ,the Levites, had a special standing economicly because of their service in the Temple and to the nation at large.
WE do have a command to decentralize. Jesus plainly stated true worship would no longer require going to Jerusalem. Paul met with folks where ever they were. This is not the first century and the geographical center of our would is not likely to be left a barren waste in a few decades as was Jerusalem.
Just as it still makes sense to meet weekly,at least, it makes sense to have a place in which to do so. For one man no ediface can be grand enough, any structure is too pale an image of how he sees God. For another anything more than the minimum is waste and his point can be valid as well. But remember which of the Twelve complained of waste. Both should follow the Lord as best thwey can and refrain from judgeing and insisting all agree with their view.
On the practical side. The strangest and worst problems I ve had personal contact with relating to 'church' were connected to 'home meetings'. And we would rightly condemn a man who refuesed to barn his livestock in harsh weather, especially, if he cited Paul's lack of barn refeences or some such drivel.
We hand over our common sense when we proclaim to the world that we not only believe in the Resurrection but it is the very basis of our faith. I reckon we're safe to pick it up again and use it when and where appropriate.
Take care
Hitch
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Eveything is pre-orchestrated from the worship songs that we sing to the length of the service. Very little seems to be between us and the Lord. Sometimes it feels more like being a religious puppet.
Something like this.
1) be here at this time to start.
2) we will now sing 3 songs
3) Now, sit down
4) Hear sermon for 30 min.
5) Invitation
6) Give offering
7) Go home
I don't know, but sometimes it seems almost robotic.
I feel the need to worship in truth and in spirit like the scripture talks about.
I love the Lord, and I'm not knocking my brothers and sisters in Christ, but I just feel like we're not getting everything that the Lord has for us.
Lord, please help us to better worship you. Help us to worship you in truth and in spirit as your word teaches.
Posts: 182 | From: Missouri | Registered: Aug 2005
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Chaplain Bob
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Member # 5019
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posted
Amen David! And, frankly, most of the religious organizations occupying these buildings have failed miserably in preparing the Believers to do what the Lord has called them to do.
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In His Service,
Bob Allen
Posts: 209 | From: Checotah, Oklahoma | Registered: Aug 2005
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decibel
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Member # 4737
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posted
I would have to agree with you David that "The church building is a hindrance not a help"
Personally, I believe and agree that Christianity the Religion is based in pagan ritual and tradition. We have become distracted by our surroundings, and our many theologies that have taken away from our whole purpose. Yeshua/Jesus and the fellowship of the family. He is the one who we are to focus on and we should find out what He wants. However we have created a place and ideology that makes us feel confortable. This is very dangerous, in my opinion.
Here is a thought that just came to me. Is it possible that we, the Christian church, have fallen into these pagan rituals because it is our past and history, like you mentioned. To clarify my thought... If many of us are decendants of the Norhtern Tribe of Israel, then it should be no suprise that we would fall back into the same acts as those which caused God to Divorce the House of Israel back in the day. Hmmm.
I will definitely look into that book.
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Trust Me, Not What You See!!
Yeshua
Posts: 21 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jun 2005
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yahsway
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Member # 3738
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posted
Hi David, I read that book 2 years ago and found Viola made some interesting points.
From my own experience, while assembling with other believers at a "church building", I was in lack of good fellowship as we only were there 2 hours tops on Sunday Morn, maybe 1 hour on Wed, and Sunday nights. Only a few were allowed to lead or speak, and many of us just knew faces but actually got to know the person.
Someone did suggest a house fellowship once a week ,taking turns at different ones homes, but my Pastors wife at the time said she did not feel comfortable with that as she was leary of some peoples in the assembly coming into her home.
I believe we all need to fellowship and there must be a place to get togethere for that fellowship.
Viola brings out some interesting points such as where the Pulpit came from, Sunday school teachers of the youth, ect.. mostly traditional things that have been passed down thru the ages. A lot of it does have its origions in paganism but that is no suprise as Protestants did break off from the Catholic church but took a lot of the traditions with them.
I have often wondered where would these people go to worship and hear the word if all the church buildings in America were shut down? I live in a small town and there are approximately 92 church buildings here, of course they are of different denominations. Maybe thats where the problem lies. God is not the Author of denominationalism.
If you have ever read C. P Wagners "churchquake" you would really get an eye opener. He encourages new pastors just going into the ministry to build their own church building and not go rent one that maybe is up for rent and he says not to go buy an existing church building but to build a new one. That sure doesnt make sense to me, but a lot of pastors I know agree with him.
There were a few things in Violas book that did not set well with me, but for the most part I believe he is on to something.
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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KnowHim
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posted
The church building is a hindrance not a help. It rips at the heart of the Christian faith-a faith that was born in living rooms. Every Sunday morning, you sit in a building which has pagan origins and is built upon pagan philosophy.
There does not exist a shred of Biblical support for the church building. Yet you, dear Christian, continue to pay good money to sanctify your brick and stone. By doing so, you have supported an artificial setting where you are lulled into passivity and prevented from being natural or intimate."' (Even if you are having sweet fellowship in the parking lot, it is squelched once you hit the front door and enter the foyer.)
We are completely unaware of what we lost as Christians when we created the church building. We have become victims of our past. Tradition has shot us down.
The above is quoted from a book I am reading called "Pagan Christianity" The Origins of Our Modern Church Practices by Frank Viola
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Why I posted this quote is, I wanted to know if someone could refute this statement, "There does not exist a shred of Biblical support for the church building. "
He seems to make some very good points in this book.
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Wondering what everyone elses opinion about this subject is?
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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