quote:

---

Originally posted by David:
The church building is a hindrance not a help. It rips at the heart of the Christian faith-a faith that was born in living rooms. Every Sunday morning, you sit in a building which has pagan origins and is built upon pagan philosophy.

There does not exist a shred of Biblical support for the church building. Yet you, dear Christian, continue to pay good money to sanctify your brick and stone. By doing so, you have supported an artificial setting where you are lulled into passivity and prevented from being natural or intimate."' (Even if you are having sweet fellowship in the parking lot, it is squelched once you hit the front door and enter the foyer.)

We are completely unaware of what we lost as Christians when we created the church building. We have become victims of our past. Tradition has shot us down.

The above is quoted from a book I am reading called "Pagan Christianity" The Origins of Our Modern Church Practices by Frank Viola

::::::::::::::::::::::

Why I posted this quote is, I wanted to know if someone could refute this statement, "There does not exist a shred of Biblical support for the church building. "

He seems to make some very good points in this book.
.
.
.
Wondering what everyone elses opinion about this subject is?
.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by HE LIVES:
Eveything is pre-orchestrated from the worship songs that we sing to the length of the service. Very little seems to be between us and the Lord. Sometimes it feels more like being a religious puppet.

Something like this.

1) be here at this time to start.

2) we will now sing 3 songs

3) Now, sit down

4) Hear sermon for 30 min.

5) Invitation

6) Give offering

7) Go home

I don't know, but sometimes it seems almost robotic.

I feel the need to worship in truth and in spirit like the scripture talks about.

I love the Lord, and I'm not knocking my brothers and sisters in Christ, but I just feel like we're not getting everything that the Lord has for us.

Lord, please help us to better worship you. Help us to worship you in truth and in spirit as your word teaches.

---

quote:

---

Why I posted this quote is, I wanted to know if someone could refute this statement, "There does not exist a shred of Biblical support for the church building."

I ment refute it with Bible references in the New Testament. I don't care what men's tradition is, only what God actually told us.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by trafield:
David,
Off-topic but I have to ask...
I have sent you a couple of emails since moving here to Chuckey, TN from Florida asking if we could meet. Is there a reason you do not respond?

Tracy

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by trafield:
David, I disagree strongly with the statement that a church building is a hinderance. The building is just a building.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rogg:
Jesus thought enough of the temple as a place of worship to drive the merchants out.


Matthew 21:12
12.Then Jesus went into the temple of God and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by trafield:

quote:

---

Why I posted this quote is, I wanted to know if someone could refute this statement, "There does not exist a shred of Biblical support for the church building."

I ment refute it with Bible references in the New Testament. I don't care what men's tradition is, only what God actually told us.

---

Another thing, David...
If you want direct biblical evidence in the Bible that there were seperate gathering places for believers other than their homes,
then I believe 1 Corinthians 11:17-22 is a good example for you.

1 Corinthians 11:17-22
17In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval. 20When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, 21for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. 22Don't you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? Certainly not!

There is obviously a distinction here between those who should remain home if they want to eat like pigs and those who are at church to respectfully take Communion.

---

First I really would like some direct biblical evidence in the bible where is says they built a building to GO TO CHURCH.

As you quoted: “that when you come together as a church” only means that there were more then two or three gathered in the name of Jesus. Church does not mean a building. And yes I am sure some people had larger homes then others so they often meet in homes other then their own. So when they wanted to meet with other believers, I would think they had to leave their own house and go to someone else’s, or have others come to theirs.

The point of this passage is that the purpose for which they had met was resulting in revelry and was no brotherly. He did not like it because they did not wait for the group and it was humiliating to God’s poor.

Sort of like the rich who tithe the most are the ones that run a lot of today’s church building, if they are saved or not.

If you really want the meaning of the passage, it is about the believers coming together to eat the Lord’s Supper. It was not just a get together to have someone preach at you.

Now it is not done like it was then because of tradition. It use to be a full meal a Christian banquet.

Every community has a set of shared memories that bind it together. Typically, these shared memories are reviewed and celebrated during a meal. The Jews, for example, had many different feasts where they remembered and celebrated their rich heritage. Americans do the same when they celebrate Thanksgiving. The Lord's Supper was a covenant meal that bound the early Christians together with a common memory. In the first century, the Lord's Supper was a square meal. In fact, it was a full-blown banquet. It was a celebration taken with a spirit of joy and thanksgiving. Further, it was accompanied by the mutual sharing of the Body of Christ.

Both the Catholic and Protestant camps have reduced the meal to a ritual presided by a clergyman. The meal aspect, the spirit of celebration, and the mutual sharing have all been evacuated out of it.

The word "tradition" has a bad connotation today, and this is not entirely unjust. There are many who would like to bind their own opinions and traditions ("We've always done it this way.") on the churches. This problem was around even in Jesus' day. He had to rebuke the Pharisees and scribes because they were invalidating God's word for the sake of their tradition (Matthew 15:1-9; Mark 7:1- 13). Paul warns the Colossians against those who would have them follow the tradition of men rather than Christ (Colossians 2:8).
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Hey David: Clean out your PM Box Bro. I have a web question for you and your box is full!!
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
On this subject. I do not think that there is Biblical evidence to support the building. I have often thought that Jesus would be appauled to see the money spent on maintianing these buildings that sit empty all week while people among the congregations cannot pay their bills or buy medicine and are in debt and one paycheck from homelessness and people sleep in the streets.

The place of gathering certainly was never in the NT a place to bring the sinner into in hopes of hearing the Gospel and being saved.

But if you say this in public, the wolves will howl and they will try to hang you from the nearest tree or call you a cult and try and lynch you for being against church!

Some of the most enriching and spiritually rewarding and even effective time that we have spent was spent in a small group of 4 couples who met weekly in the homes of each other to study God's word, pray, and fellowship. We without any effort or even initiative on our part came to find ourselves praying... real spiritual warfare for our community as we each brought seen needs or concerns to the group... this happened naturally. We came to find our selves ministering to each other's needs... material needs... naturally and without prompting... we also found ourselves seeing and ministering to needs of others that we saw in our own church that were not being seen or addressed as part of regular church business and we have a small close knit very generous and spirit led church that does look out for each other. My husband was out of work for over a year and we never missed a house payment lost our utilities or were without food in that whole year and I was not working but homeschooling. Our church cared for us, encouraged us, filledour freezer, stopped in and paid our electric bills rtc...and many of the men gave my husband work... but even that does not compare to the ministry that this small group of just 4 couples did. We were so much closer and so much more effective and so much the more led by the spirit and our study and worship time was very rich.The way we evolved into powerful prayer for our community still has me in awe at God's working. We are not now meeting and I long for that kind of being a church again. I believe it happens in the absence of buildings and all the trappings that go with them from budgets to fund them to programs, and events that fill them.
 

---

Posted by Eduardo Grequi (Member # 3984) on :
 
When in discourse of human events and manners of community a place of central importance is the church ASSEMBLY. AN INAMINATE OBJECT COULD NEVER BE CALLED SO IMPORTANT THAT WITHOUT IT-FELLOWSHIP WOULD NOT HAPPENED.

As I have studied church history, I have come to realize that a Church BUILDING is where people meet together to fellowship and commune. Now the question THAT SHOOULD BE ASKED IS about the assembly of believers and the connerstone that sparks spiritual growth, WHEN JESUS IS MADE THE CONNERSTONE OF ITS DISCIPLINE -THE ASSEMBLY WILL GROW .

WE ARE REMINDED IN Romans 12:1&2

TO PRESENT OUR BODIES AS A TEMPLE TREAT IT CORRECTLY FOR WITHIN IT ABIDES THE SPIRIT.

CHURCHES ARE APART OF THE PROPHECIES OF THINGS TO COME. 7 CHURCHES OF ASIA.

IN A SIMPLE MIND, A CHURCH BUILDING OR A TEMPLE ARE THE SAME, only in prejudice do people divide concerning this. ECCLESIA,IGLESIA, TEMPLO, KIRCHE, AMSHOHUNIN; MOSKET etc... ARE WORDS used in different languages to name a CHURCH BUILDING.

I DO NOT BELIEVE A CHURCH BUILDING IS THE HENDERENCE, BUT THE NON-SCRIPTURAL CHURCH DOGMA THAT SOME CHURCH FAITHS ARE ESTABLISHED ON ARE THE HENDERNCE TO PEOPLE'S FAITH.

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS FULL OF EXTRA-BIBLICAL DOGMA, SO DOES EACH DENOMINATIONS WITHIN CHRISTIANDOM CONTAIN NON-SCRIPTURAL DOGMA. EVEN WITHIN JUDIASM THERE IS EXTRA-BIBLICAL DOGMA.

YOU HAVE TO SEPERATE THE CHURCH BUILDING WHICH IS ONLY A GATHERING POINT, FROM THE ASSEMBLY OF THE BRETHERN TOGETHER. WHETHER IT IS IN A PARK, A RUN DOWN BUILDING, IN A CAR, AT MCDONALD'S. JESUS EVEN ACTUALLY SAID, "When 2 or more are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst"

The Church Assembly is the gathering of believers, the place where they do it is called a Church Building.

Playing Church- Sort of reminds of Tammy Wynettes song, ' I DON NA WANT TO PLAY HOUSE BECAUSE WHEN SHE PLAYED HOUSE MY DADDY SAID GOOD BY!

People who are gathered together to grow in Christ will flourish, and people who come together just to be a show piece- will be sitting pretty, but in the end will miss the rapture.

Did you know- Christians in general who just like getting together will select a Church Building that looks like a Mansion. Look at Dr Fuller's Church on TV. Now that building looks like a Chrystal Catherdaol.
 

---

Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on :
 
The translators basically did an outstanding job. There are however, a few words that just leave us with an unBiblical, and therefore unsound, impress. Foundation in Eph 1.4 should have been 'overthrow' for ex. Moreover, to avoid repetition, the word hope has been translated grace, but this would go unnoted if one studies only the English, the meanings do change however and care should be taken to observe these instances even if they are not to be fully depricated. The word church may be the largest stumbling block for the truly interested student to unlearn, as it is vastly misrepresenting the truths of Scripture:


CHURCH (Gr. EKKLESIA).

1. The Greek word ekklesia means assembly, or a gathering of called-out ones. It is used seventy times in the Septuagint for the Hebrew kahal (from which latter we have our word call), rendered in Sept. by sunagoge and ekklesia. (*1) This latter word occ. in N.T. 115 times (36 in plural), and is always transl. "church" except in Acts 19:32, 39, 41 (assembly - because it was a riot, else they would have tranlsated it church here as well).

2. kahal is used (1) of Israel as a People called out from the rest of the nations (Gen. 28:3); (2) of the tribal council of Simeon and Levi, those called out from each tribe (Gen. 49:6); (3) of an assembly of Israelites called out for worship or any other purpose (Deut. 18:16; 31:30. Josh. 8:35. Judg. 21:8); (4) any assembly of worshippers as a congregation (Ps. 22:22, 25. Ekklesia in Matt. 16:18; 18:17. 1Cor. 14:19, 35, &c.); (5) the equivalent ekklesia of separate assemblies in different localities (Acts 5:11; 8:3. 1Cor. 4:17, &c.); (6) of the guild or "union" of Ephesian craftsmen (Acts 19:32, 41), and v. 39 (the lawful assembly). Finally, the special Pauline usage of ekklesia differs from all these. Other assemblies consisted of called-out ones from Jews, or from Gentiles (Acts 18:22), but this new body is of called-out ones from both.

3. Our word, the way WE use it "church" (*2) has an equally varied usage. It is used (1) of any congregation; (2) of a particular church (England, or Rome, &c); (3) of the ministry of a church; (4) of the building in which the congregation assembles; (5) of Church as distinct from Chapel; (6) of the church as distinct from the world, and lastly, it is used in the Pauline sense, of the body of Christ.

4. It is of profound importance to distinguish the usage of the word in each case, else we may be reading "the church which was in the wilderness" into the Prison Epistles, although we are expressly told that there is neither Jew nor Gentile in the "church which is His body". And when our Lord said "On this rock I will build my church" (Matt. 16:18), those who heard His words could not connect them with the "mystery" which was "hid in God" and had not then been made known to the sons of men. Confusion follows our reading what refers to Israel in the past or the future into the present dispensation. Readers are referred to the various notes in the connexions.

5. The word where qualified by other terms occurs thus: --

Church of God; Acts 20:28. 1Cor. 1:2; 10:32; 11:16 (pl.), 22; 15:9. 2Cor. 1:1. Gal. 1:13. 1Thess. 2:14 (pl.). 2Thess. 1:4 (pl). 1Tim. 3:5, 15 (c. of the living God).

Churches of Christ; Rom. 16:16.

Church in .. house; Rom. 16:5. 1Cor. 16:19. Col. 4:15. Philem. 2.

Churches of the Gentiles; Rom. 16:4.

Churches of Galatia; 1Cor. 16:1. Gal. 1:2. Of Asia; 1Cor. 16:19. Of Macedonia; 2Cor. 8:1. Of Judaea; Gal. 1:22. Of the Laodiceans; Col. 4:16. Of the Thessalonians; 1Thess. 1:1; 2Thess .1:1.

Church of the firstborn (pl); Heb. 12:23.

Church in Ephesus, Smyrna, &c. Rev. 2 and 3; and

Churches; Rev. 22:16.

(*1) kahal occurs in the Old Testament 123 times; congregation eighty-six, assembly seventeen, company seventeen, and multitude three times. The Sept. uses sunagoge and ekklesia as practically synonymous terms. But the sunagoge concerns the bringing together of the members of an existing society or body excluding all others, whereas the ekklesia calls and invites all men, including outsiders everywhere, to join it. Sunagoge being permanently associated with Jewish worship, was dropped by the early Christians in favor of ekklesia as of wider import.

(*2) Is derived from the Gr. kuriakos, of or belonging to the Lord, house (Gr. oikos) being understood. It comes to us through A.S. circe (Scottish kirk).
 

---

Posted by trafield (Member # 5358) on :
 

quote:

---

As you quoted: “that when you come together as a church” only means that there were more then two or three gathered in the name of Jesus. Church does not mean a building. And yes I am sure some people had larger homes then others so they often meet in homes other then their own. So when they wanted to meet with other believers, I would think they had to leave their own house and go to someone else’s, or have others come to theirs.

---

quote:

---

Some of the most enriching and spiritually rewarding and even effective time that we have spent was spent in a small group of 4 couples who met weekly in the homes of each other to study God's word, pray, and fellowship. We without any effort or even initiative on our part came to find ourselves praying... real spiritual warfare for our community as we each brought seen needs or concerns to the group... this happened naturally. We came to find our selves ministering to each other's needs... material needs... naturally and without prompting...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Hey David: Clean out your PM Box Bro. I have a web question for you and your box is full!!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by trafield:
Seriously, though, I know you are hitting on a big, big, big, problem, that all of us with the spirit of prophecy (since we value the TRUTH of God's Word more than anything) can sense. That there is a major apostasy with much of the leadership in churches across America. Of course we we told this would be coming in the last days..and will get worse before the antichrist is finally revealed.

I have been in Tennessee now since September and may have just found my first sound, biblically balanced church. I need to go some more to be sure. But what I have seen makes me want to weep. Too many churches without Bibles...Too many churches not undertanding the true concept of being born again and having the certainty about their salvation...too many churches not even giving messages from the Word but spending all their time in "worship" looking for an experience and chasing after a sign...too many churches defining truth by their feelings rather than the Word....too many churches not even offering an invitation or an evagelical message to the lost because they are too busy entertaining their current Christian audience....and on, and on, and on.

But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. And we will declare the Truth boldy and without fear, and without compromise..but may the Lord show me how to do this without the frustration I so often feel, so that I not forget the commandment of love that I am to have for all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by epouraniois:
The child of God must have an open mind toward the Lord and His Word, ever willing to cast aside the most cherished of teachings if proved untrue by the Word.

---

Amen!


 

---

Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on :
 
And so, what is truth?


And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; --Rev 3:14

That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of “truth”; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes. --Isa 65:16

There it is, the word Truth=Amen. The Hebrew word “truth”, “'emeth”. Amen = am, long e, n, amd is just the transliteration of the Hebrew word “Truth”. Pilate’s question, What is truth, well; Christ is the truth, & the Amen. John says, Thy Word is Truth. There is no truth outside of Him. Christ says, I am the truth. It is obvious that most people do not really want truth, oh, they say they do, but it shows in their actions, its too upsetting. In fact they deny truth. In Psalm 119, we read of one who valued truth & quickening above that of gold. Do we really want truth?


For my love they are my adversaries: but I prayer. Psa 109:4
 

---

Posted by Aaron (Member # 3761) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by David:

Have you ever wonderd about the following.

Why do we "dress up" for church?

Why does the pastor preach a sermon every week?

Why do we have pulpits and pews?

Why do we have church building, steeples, choirs, and seminaries?

Where did these things come from?

---

Now you're talking crazy.


Aaron

P.S. One can make even their closest of friends squeemish with those questions.
 

---

Posted by HE LIVES (Member # 4931) on :
 

quote:

---

Why does the pastor preach a sermon every week?

---

quote:

---

Linda,
That is awesome! But you don't think there are other churches of various sizes in church buildings with people doing the same things?
There are...I know, because I came from one.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
To me that question asks... is it the best way.

---

WOW, very good post Linda!



Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. - Matthew 17:4

But Jesus did not say to start putting up eartly kingdoms. Because He who sees Jesus in his true nature will be transformed into his likness and has no need of an eartly dwelling. It is about Jesus only and He is sufficient. If Jesus dwells in us, we will want to help others and not promote ourselves.

I think it would be a good thing to rent a building as needed when a large group of believes need to get together for a meeting. I know people can rent Freedom Hall Civic Center where I live to use for such things. Like once a month or something like that. But not build one to set empty sucking up all the resources we should be using to support the widows, orphans and to evanglize (preach the gospel out doors where people can hear it, other then our special little groups.)

Wow this would force people to get into small groups and really get to know each other and be accountable and actually know if someone died or need help.


 

---

Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 
Linda,

Now your PM box if full.... grin

You can get the quotes for you website at:

http://www.arkwebs1.com/cgi-bin/scripture_moment/moment_html.cgi

It is the one labeled "Christian Quotes"

Also if you have some quotes you want to add, email them to me at david at whitedoveevent dot com


Plow on, plow on...
David
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Too funny about my PM box! Mac just told me my email box was full and I did not realize what he was telling me! I think that is a case of take the beam from your own eye Thanks for the quote box info!

I agree with you on renting when needed, but I would hope that it would be possible to use the facilities of a member. Many have offices with conference rooms.. or maybe someone owns a hotel? When we had a shop we had a room that we used for training that would have made a great meeting room. I would think that renting would come as an exception when no other means was available.

I tell you I was thinking about this subject and this post probably will not be any more popular with some that the one above, but I think it is true... so here goes.

I have heard a lot of discussion about how so often women must teach in church because there are no men to do it... or women must pastor because there are no men to do it.

I think that if we were meeting in homes this would be less a problem... I think that men would better understand that they are the priest of their homes and their families. I think that women would better understand keep silent and learn at home from your own husbands.

If we were meeting in homes... I would not desire a women to come into my home teaching. Nor would my husband desire any authority over another man's wife. He would want her to go to her own husband if she had questions or lacked understanding. Likewise.. I would not be going to another woman's husband looking for answers to my questions or understanding. In this setting we can see the importance of order. We can see that these things are not archaic and are not because Paul did not like women and not because society oppressed women, but because God has established the HOME as the center of spiritual learning and fellowship and these things were meant to respect God's authority structure in the home,,, that being the head of every man is Christ and the head of the woman is man. Man is the priest of his home.

Personally, I can see in our current tradition of church building congregation why so many men are not comfortable stepping up to the plate so to speak. There is not proper authority. Who could be confortable in that situation?

If your pastor says something that is against your belief or understanding of the scripture and you are in the church building .. he is in an authority that is not his according to scripture.

I dont know about you but I have had this happen and it is not a good thing. We once were in a church where the pastor told one of my children that it was ok to read Harry Potter books. Well not in our house it is not! How do I now demonstrate right authority to my girls in this situation. If I speak up I am out of right authority. If I dont my children have wrong instruction. Now my husband has to step in and do something he does not want to do. He has to correct the situation with our children, but he also has to speak to the pastor.... but the pastor in in authority in the Church Building. If this had happened in a home setting... it would be very clear to all who was out of right authority in the first place.

I dont know if that is a good example or will be understood what I am trying to say. But the man is the priest of his own home. When you enter another man's home you are a guest. When you are given to a body as a pastor or elder and you enter a man's home for a church congregation, you enter as his guest... it is like yeilding the floor... you are given a level of repect from the householder who yields the floor... but you are not there in authority over him and his family...nor over those who are also guests with you. You are yielded the floor out of honor and respect, which is met with your own honor and respect that this is his home.

Can you see what I am talking about? It just seems to me that one of the main reasons we do not understand these scriptures today and we make all kinds of excuses for our lack of understanding that amount to our denying or dismissing them, is because we do not do church as we ought.

MHO for what it is worth.
 

---

Posted by trafield (Member # 5358) on :
 

quote:

---

Tracy: I am sure it happens; but that is not the point. The point is and the question asked is: Is the building a hindrance.

---

quote:

---

Is our treasure the building or the people? The question is not whether or not good things are happening in church buildings. The question is could better things be happening if the church were gathering in our already exisiting homes or businesses or parks or what ever? If there were not the added responsibilities of church buildings could those resources... human, material, monetary, be better spent elsewhere or else wise? If there were not buildings for people to walk into would they have to seek people to hear about the Gospel? Would members have to go out to preach it? Would we be better more effective witneses of it the other 6 days of the week? Would we be more apt to assemble according to the leading and gifting of the spirit and the needs of the body rather than according to the comfort of the seats or the quality of the sound system or the presence of a gym?

---

And you might want to add the presence of a computer and the internet to the list.
Look, I know we agree more than we disagree. I know the churches are in trouble because many of them are dead. There are many reasons for this, among them are the critical spirits that want to point out our differences rather than focus on what we have in common in Christ. But I wonder how many of us who fellowship on the Christian boards, actually meet with other believers in person and fellowship on a regular basis as we are called? How many are actually discipling and mentoring new Christians? How many are actually leaving their computers and wintessing and praying for people face-to-face. God knows.
I understand what you all are saying, and I think we mostly agree. But the 3,000 believers that were baptised in the book of Acts were meeting together in orderly worship, and God was adding to their numbers daily those that were being saved. The big difference is that they had every thing in common and were united in their love for God, not divided by selfish ambition and quarreling words.
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Tracy, I dont disagree with any of your points here accept that the building is a hindrance.
 

---

Posted by trafield (Member # 5358) on :
 

quote:

---

Tracy, I dont disagree with any of your points here accept that the building is a hindrance.

---

I guess it just depends on one's perspective.
I know of "buildings" that shelter battered women...I know of other "buildings" that are Christian pregnancy centers that protect women from those that would try to force them into abortions...etc, etc.
For these, the "building" is not a hinderance, my dear sister, but a lifeline.
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
These are church buildings that do this? If so that is wonderful. It has always driven me nuts to see church building doors closed and locked up 6 days of the week. Many years ago when I was in Florida, the Lutheran church that my sister-in -law attended and my husband and she grew up in served as a food pantry/clothing and household goods distribution center and soup kitchen to the homeless during the week. I thought that was a wonderful use of the building too; like I said I do not question that there are wonderful things going on in some church buildings. I just question if it is the best way. And yes, it absouletly is a matter of one's perspective!
 

---

Posted by trafield (Member # 5358) on :
 

quote:

---

These are church buildings that do this? If so that is wonderful. It has always driven me nuts to see church building doors closed and locked up 6 days of the week. Many years ago when I was in Florida, the Lutheran church that my sister-in -law attended and my husband and she grew up in served as a food pantry/clothing and household goods distribution center and soup kitchen to the homeless during the week. I thought that was a wonderful use of the building too; like I said I do not question that there are wonderful things going on in some church buildings. I just question if it is the best way. And yes, it absouletly is a matter of one's perspective!

---

No, it is actually the people in the church buildings that are doing this.
Of course they do not house them in the sanctuary, but in seperate "buildings," on church property.
This really is a silly topic.
 

---

Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 
If the building where born-again followers of Jesus Christ is being used to help the widows and orphans.

Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. - James 1:26-27

Using it 24/7/365 to do the above, then it would be a wonderful use of a building. But to just leave it setting empty most of the time, or even worse use for your own entertainment such as the world does it not found in my bible. Sadly that is the state of most of the church buildings. And even if they do have a christian school or something it would cost you and arm and leg to pay for your child to go. So that leaves out the poor folks again.

Luke 16:19 - 25 (KJV)
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Whom are these people and why is one of God's children poor? Could it be the rich church with it purple robs are hording the blessings of God and not taking care of God's children?

Could it be that all the money church buildings take in weekly in the 10's of $1000.00's and they give some poor a widow $300.00 to pay her bills and think they did good. But really that is just crumbs from the rich man's table. $300.00 would not take care of much at all. But this happens all the time because when they do get together and take up a SPECIAL offering, not give out of what they have already taken in because they just don't have it left over after paying for the building, etc.... then to add to that they get up in front of the church and tell the persons name and how great they did raising the $300.00 to give to this poor soul. It is sicking!
 

---

Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by trafield:
[QUOTE]This really is a silly topic.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by trafield:
Wow, David, even Jesus had some good things to say about the churches in Revelation!
I sense a bitter root there, brother...whatch out that it does not defile!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by David:
Maybe if some people would defend the truth in the bible as hard as they do their traditions, a lot more people would know why Jesus really give His life for us.

---

You're preaching good today bro'!

One thing that happened in my church recently was that we just became totally debt free & are starting to build up some cash flow. So there have been months and months of board meetings deciding what to do - building plan, improvements, etc. While our facilities could use some upgrades for safety reasons (we have a daycare ministry), I haven't heard any talk about outreach or helping the poor, etc.
 

---

Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 
history does show that there were physical church buldings in Ephusus, in Smyrna, in Thessalonica, etc.

Where did you get this information and what are the dates they were there.

I just like to know what is true and what people just think to be true.
 

---

Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
ughhh! I just realized that I wrote:"are the church buildings doing this." I am sorry! I meant "Are they doing this in the Church Buidings?" Hopefuly you knew that from my example and did not think I was being sarcastic.

Tracy, I am sorry that you think this a silly subject. I think it is a great subject. It is interesting and we I believe we should be asking our selves these kinds of questions.

As for historical evidence of church buildings in Ephesus, Symna and Thessalonica: I would be interested to see such documentation from the first and even the greater part of the second century. I am not aware of this and am aware of documentation contrary to this.

But, even if there were some, the fact remains that there is no Biblical record of such and no record of any scriptural instruction to the buying ir building of "church" buildings.

Every reference in the scripture speaks to the meeting in homes or in a public place.

I found this article on the subject with reference notes which I thought was good:

Christian Churches and Assemblies
In the
First Century


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So those who welcomed his message were baptized, and that day about three thousand persons were added. They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

Awe came upon everyone, because many wonders and signs were being done by the apostles. All who believed were together and had all things in common; they would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds to all, as any had need. Day by day, as they spent much time together in the temple, they broke bread at home and ate their food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having the goodwill of all the people. And day by day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved. --Acts 2:41-47 NRSV

One of the difficulties people face in emerging from a life-domineering religious organization is where to find solace to fill the social and spiritual void left in its wake. Where there had seemingly been clear guidance for every aspect of Christian living, with answers to every question through the dictates of policy-making leadership, self-proclaimed to be spirit-directed by Almighty God, there is now little that remains in its place except bewilderment.

We entrusted our faith to an authoritarian organization, served it to the utmost and based important life decisions on that faith, only to eventually discover our devotion was to the illusions of imperfect humans who were not the emissaries of God that we had believed. The table on which we had perceived a bountiful banquet is bare. The flourishing oasis we envisioned in a parched desert was a mirage. Some may feel lost in a spiritual wilderness without refuge, wary to ever again trust any kind of organization for worship lest they fall prey to another order of mind control and deception.

Yet how are we to seek and sustain a meaningful relationship with our Creator apart from association with fellow Christians? How do we apply the instruction of the apostle Paul who counselled, "let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, . . ."? (Hebrews 10:24,25 - NAS)

Now we must ask, can there be Christian association without submitting to domination by men? Can there be unity in Christ without conformity to a central earthly authority? Can there be Christian freedom in assembly? Or can people and families study the Bible in approved worship independent of association with larger groups? To understand these and other questions about Christian fellowship, we look to the Scriptures to discover how the followers of Jesus worshipped together, and later how they assembled as a church after his death and resurrection in the first century CE.

In order to understand the meaning of church in the early Christian community, we must examine a Greek word ekklesia from which the word "church" is translated.

The "church" (ekklesia) in the first century

A literal translation of the Greek word ekklesia means, in the general sense, "assembly" or "gathering. " From the fifth century BC it was applied to any group of Greek citizens who came together in meeting for a purpose. In the Greek translation of the "Old Testament" (Septuagint), the word ekklesia denoted an assembly of Israelites, and the term was also sometimes interchanged with the word for "synagogue."

The word church (ekklesia) appears in only two verses in the Gospels, both in the book of Matthew and spoken by Jesus. In the first occurrence, Jesus tells Peter: "upon this rock I build my church." (Matt. 16:18) Here Jesus applies "church" in a universal sense as meaning the whole spiritual assembly of all Christians, the "rock" being his spiritual "body" (Col.1:18) of which he, the Christ, would be the head. (Eph.5:23) In this application there is an implied relationship to the universal church of his future Kingdom. In his second reference to "church," Jesus instructs a believer to appeal to the "church" when a member, a wrong-doer, will not heed private admonition. (Matt. 18:17) In this definition, the term applies more generally to a local "congregation." In deed some translators render ekklesia here as "congregation" (for example, NEB) or "community" (JB). It is this second definition that we are concerned with for consideration of Christians assembling together for worship in our time.

Other than Jesus' two references to "church" in Matthew, it does not appear to be the term generally used by his disciples or the Jews to describe their gatherings prior to the writing of Paul in the Epistles. It was some years later, in his letters to Gentile congregations, that the apostle Paul regularly employed the word "church" in reference to groups of Christians in their various communities.[1] In the Bible, the word "church" is first seen in his greeting to the Christians in Thessalonica. (1 Thess. 1:1) Thereafter, "church" is recorded some sixty times in the writings about his ministry to the Gentile Christians. That he viewed the "churches" as independent congregations is clear from the fact that he uses the plural word (ekklesias) when writing a letter to several groups, for example in his letter to "the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea" (1 Thess.2:14) and in his letter to "all the churches of the saints" (1 Cor. 14:33). Throughout the record of Paul's ministry, it is clearly evident that the early communities of Christians did share in independent group fellowships called "churches." The only way "church" was applied collectively to multiple congregations was reference to an assembly of more than one congregation, or when it was applied in the universal sense of all Christians in union with Christ. "Church" was never used in reference to Christianity as a religious denomination. In Harper's Bible Dictionary, under the definition of "church" it is stated this way:

"In the NT "church" always denotes a group of people, either all the Christians in a city (Acts 14:23, 1 Cor.1:2; 2 Cor.1:1) or those gathered for worship in a particular house (Rom. 16:5; 1 Cor.16:19) or all Christians in all the churches, the whole church (Matt. 16:18; Eph. 1:22). It never signifies a building or a "denomination." [Bold not in original.]

Where did first-century Christians meet?

There are no specific commands in the Bible as to where or how often Christians should meet. However we can learn much by what the Scriptures reveal in the various references to church meetings. Notably there is no mention of any church-owned property or permanent meeting place. Meetings were held in various homes and in public places, including the Temple (Acts 2:46; 5:12, 42), or out in the open as on the Mount of Olives (Acts 1:6) or on the seashore (Acts 21:5), or in "an upper room" (Acts 1:13-14; 2:1-2; 20:1). Specific homes mentioned are Cornelius's house (Acts 10:27), Simon's (Acts 10:6), Mary's (Acts 12:5, 12), Lydia's (Acts 16:40), Jason's (Acts 17:5), Justus' (Acts 18:7), Philip's (Acts 21:7), as well as the apostle Paul's abode (Acts 28:23-30).

". . . while I did not hold back from telling you any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching you publicly and from house to house.* --Acts 20:20 New World Translation Rev. 1971 edition. [Footnote: *Or, "and in the private houses."--pg. 1162]

In the Epistles, the only buildings specifically mentioned as used for church meetings are private houses. These include Priscilla and Aquila's house (Rom. 16:5; 1 Cor. 16:19); Nympha's house (Col. 4:15) and Philemon's house (Philem. 2). It is generally supposed the groups were relatively small, numbering anywhere from the immediate members of one household up to perhaps approximately 40 in more affluent homes.

Due to persecution in the first century, Christians met wherever they could. Christianity was not recognized as an exclusive religion by the Roman government before the time of Constantine.

"Until the second century Christians were not permitted to erect churches, but were compelled to worship in private homes, in the open fields, or, to escape persecution, in the Catacombs (q.v.) and other concealed places."[2]

Church historian, Quintus Tertullian, early in the third century writes: "Lastly, if you cannot assemble by day, you have the night . . . . Be content with a church of threes. It is better that you sometimes should not see your crowds, . . . ."[3] And Jesus did say: "For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them." (Matt. 18:20 NRSV)[4]

How did they fellowship?

The early Christians served as a support group for one another. To embrace the Gospel meant to embrace one another in brotherhood and fellowship as members of the dwelling of God. As Paul said:

"So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are citizens with the saints and also members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone. In him the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built together spiritually into a dwelling place for God." -Eph.2:19-22 NRSV

They shared their possessions (Acts 2:44-47) and made provision for those less fortunate, widows and orphans (Acts 6:1-7). They were known for their love and loyalty to one another as noted by one early historian:

"They abstain from all impurity in the hope of the recompense that is to come in another world. As for their servants or handmaids or children, they persuade them to become Christians by the love they have for them; and when they become so, they call them without distinction, brothers. They do not worship strange gods; and they walk in all humility and kindness, and falsehood is not found among them; and they love one another. When they see the stranger they bring him to their homes and rejoice over him as over a true brother; for they do not call those who are after the flesh, but those who are in the Spirit and in God.

"And there is among them a man that is poor and needy and if they have not an abundance of necessities, they fast two or three days, that they may supply the needy with the necessary food. "They observe scrupulously the commandment of their Messiah; they live honestly and soberly as the Lord their God commanded them. Every morning and all hours on account of the goodness of God toward them, they render praise and laud Him over their food and their drink; they render Him thanks.

"And if any righteous person of their number passes away from this world, they rejoice and give thanks to God and they follow his body as though he were moving from one place to another. And when a child is born to them, they praise God, and if again it chances to die in its infancy, they praise God mightily, as for one who has passed through the world without sins.

"Such is the law of the Christians and such is their conduct."[5]

Meals were central to the life of the early church. Luke gives a glimpse of the early church days in telling us: "They broke bread in their homes ["house to house" in the KJV] and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people." (Acts 2:46,47 NIV). Meals made fellowships a joyous occasion which became a way of demonstrating and celebrating their new kinship in Jesus' family. Meals specifically associated with fellowship and worship have been called love [agape] meals, which may also have relevance to partaking of the emblems of Christ. And they sang songs, as it says: "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly; teach and admonish one another in all wisdom; and with gratitude in your hearts sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs to God. And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him." (Col.3:16,17)

Summary

"Church," then, in its most fundamental definition means people, specifically the people of God. The Christian church was born with the first converts from the multitude gathered for the day of Penticost after Jesus' ascension. (Acts 2:37-42) They were commissioned to then spread the gospel ("good news") message of hope in God's kingdom through Christ. (Matt. 28:19-20; 2 Tim.4:1-5) The church in its universal sense means all Christians in the body of Christ and alludes to that promised Kingdom.

"But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy." -1 Pet.2:2-10

The kingdom in one sense is a present reality, a life-support system for those who believe and accept Jesus Christ and his gospel. Christians become part of the kingdom of God on earth. However, they experience the kingdom in only a partial sense. The fullness of the kingdom is our destination and our goal. Yet a foretaste of the kingdom is present now in the Body of Christ. It is this present reality that enables and empowers us to be Christian pilgrims (2 Pet. 1:3-4)

The church is not a corporate body. It is not a building or a structure. The church is not a multi-national institutional conglomerate. The church is people. That is not to say that people of God should not organize for fellowship. The Scriptures give a basic structure and coherency to the people of God. But the church should never forget that it is comprised of people in union with the Lord, Jesus Christ. It is unfortunate that the history of Christianity demonstrates the people of God have often been overlooked, forgotten and even abused by the corporate institution of the church.


[1] See Rom. 16:1; 1 Cor. 1:2; 2 Cor. 1:1; 1 Thess. 1:1, 2 Thess.1:1.
[2] 'Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature,' McClintock/Strong, Vol.22, pg 334.
[3] 'De Fuga In persecutions' as translated by Rev. S. Thelwall in 'The Ante-Nicene Fathers,' Vol. IV, page 125.
[4] Early historians such as Justin, Pliny, and Tertullian all wrote descriptions of Christian meetings and did not mention any type of church building.
[5] The Apology of Aristides, Syriac text and translation. Cited in Encyclopedia Britannica, Vol. 1 (Chicago Encyclopedia Britannica, Inc.), page 346. 7


**************************************************
 

---

Posted by trafield (Member # 5358) on :
 

quote:

---

Luke 16:19 - 25 (KJV)
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

---

quote:

---

history does show that there were physical church buldings in Ephusus, in Smyrna, in Thessalonica, etc.

Where did you get this information and what are the dates they were there.

I just like to know what is true and what people just think to be true.

---

Did not the apostles witness in Roman buildings and public meeting places? And did not people go to hear them preach in or at these buildings?
Sure, they were often originally built as temples to false gods...but where two are more gather to hear the word, you have a church.
I cannot help you if you were expecting me to provide a link to an archeological discovery of a tablet that had "Fist Christian Church of Thessalonica" on it.
 

---

Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on :
 
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body.

herein are presented the closest of all Biblical relationships, contrasting it with the previously made known closest relationship; head and body are closer than man and wife, wherein the church body is connected to the head/Christ;

Eph 5:24 Therefore AS the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even AS Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.


Did Christ give Himself for bricks, stones, or for people? Are bricks, stones the glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish? or can we just be frank here and admit that the church is the body of believers?

quote:

---

Originally posted by trafield:
[QB]

quote:

---

history does show that there were physical church buldings in Ephusus, in Smyrna, in Thessalonica, etc.

Where did you get this information and what are the dates they were there.

I just like to know what is true and what people just think to be true.

---

Did not the apostles witness in Roman buildings and public meeting places? And did not people go to hear them preach in or at these buildings?

---

quote:

---

Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands;


Christ taught in the out of doors, and only rarely taught in the Temple, and that was done to rebuke the leaders of the Temple as is clearly stated thru out the text.


Some say that the church is the highest authority and over the authority of the Bible, but that is not what the Bible says:

II Peter 1:21
"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

So, there we have it, the Holy Ghost [Spirit] is the authority over the Bible!!!

---

quote:

---

So much of what is expressed on this site is an echo of my heart's cry regarding the church. About five years ago my wife and I were basically thrown out of a Baptist Church because we simply asked the pastor to show us--from the scriptures--a justification for what they were doing. At the time I was serving as a deacon and a Bible study teacher. I expressed both via letter and phone conversation that I needed them to present to me scriptural support for (1) having more than half the $1.2 million budget go to staff salaries and benefits, (2) slashing all charity/benevolence from the budget, (3) using a hot marketing firm to recruit members, and (4) spending $12,000 for huge video screens. I told them that I would gladly recant my resistance and support them if they could show me that the church there was operating according to scriptural principles. Immediately their response was "If you're not happy here, go somewhere else."

I ended up voting against the budget, the marketing program, and whatever else I felt conviction was wrong. Consequently, I was shunned by all "leadership" and made to look like a renegade. All I wanted was for the church to be faithful to what the Bible taught. I was called into a private "conference" with the deacon board leadership and hammered about both my "lack of respect" and my less than 100% support of everything the pastor did. I was told I could not be a deacon if I did not submit and publicly agree with the pastor and the budget. All I did was express my concerns from passages of scripture and emphasize the desire to see scriptural defense/support from them or the pastor. They offered none, of course. Needless to say I resigned shortly after that (but not until I saw them publicly attack and humiliate another deacon who asked a simple, honest question about how staff were recruited--it was then that I wanted no part of that "office").

Shortly thereafter a fellow teacher and I were called into the pastor's office (by deceit of someone else calling us and giving us a vague reason for needing to talk). The pastor and executive pastor both commenced shaking their fingers in our faces, calling us "wolves," accusing us of undermining the church, laughing in our faces, mocking us by comparing their "years of professional ministry and study" to our relative amateurism, and tauntingly yelled at us, "you don't have any power!!!" They subsequently tossed us out as teachers and sent "agents" to a Bible study we held on Wednesday nights to take over and destroy the Spirit-led efforts there.

When I was asked, "why aren't you teaching any more?," I always responded, "you really don't want to know." Only after they relentlessly insisted I tell them did I hand them a packet containing the letters that went back-and-forth between me and the pastor and complete transcripts (generated immediately from memory after the meetings) of the conversations I had with various members of the "leadership." In every case the "friends" handed the packet back after reading through it, and proceeded to treat my wife and I like lepers. No one would believe what happened and no one would support us--we were abandoned by many close "friends."

Not all turned their backs, but none of them came to embrace the direction I ultimately went. God used this trial to urge me along in my study of "what the church ought to really be/do." I now know that what is called "church" these days is a distorted, pale shadow of what is found in the Bible. Praise God that He takes what is seems to be ruins and builds glorious mansions. I would like the Lord to use me in forming a house church--pray for us.

You have no idea how many stories like this arrive at House Church Central. So many churches seem to exist for the sole purpose of inflating the ego of their "leaders."

One proof text I've had thrown in my face by those who defend despotic leaders in the church is 1 Pet. 5:5. Those who wield this verse read it as if God had ordained "elders" as dictators over the flock. In so doing they neglect to see what the "elders" that Peter is actually talking about are doing. They are not "lording" over the flock--they are being "examples" (see verse. 3). They are stepping out in suffering service so that those "in their charge" might learn to do likewise. (See also Jas. 5, and note that it is the "elders" who are visiting the sick and saying "the prayer of faith.").

When the New Testament speaks of "leadership," it never means human authority--authority belongs to the Lord alone, who has not delegated it. The leadership Peter is speaking of is stepping out in suffering service, imitating our Lord's own witness, as an expression of God's love for the world.

Being told that you"could not be a deacon" if you "did not submit..." is especially ironic in view of the meaning of the word "deacon," which is "servant."

Your separation from that church was no doubt painful, but if you look back on it, your leaving might better be interpreted as a deliverance. I hope you will connect to a proper fellowship soon--whether it be a house church or an institutional church that understands the right meaning of "leadership."

How can discipline be handed out without some authority? We are all to be subject to one and other yet some group (elders/Pastors etc) needs to be the Spiritual leaders and act as Spiritual parents at times. I think their role is both servant and authority. Jesus was viewed as a servant but then as the authority depending on a given situation. I do believe that both the Church and the cell can share the center of worship idea that you mentioned. Both will draw different types of people who picture church life differently. Please comment.

Your question probably arise from the the "green-key" essay titled .

I attended a lecture a few years ago by the late professor James Wm. McClendon, probably the greatest (in my view) writing American theologian of our age. A question similar to yours was asked, and Dr. McClendon responded something like this: "Why do [people] keep trying to bring authority and heirarchy back into the church?"

Referring to what he called "rule of Paul," which he finds in 1 Cor 14:26, all in the fellowship need to be heard. None should be silenced. Silencing voices through whom the Spirit may be working quences the Spirit.

Dr. McClendon did a capsule exegesis of 2 Cor. 13:13, the famous benediction often called "the Grace" and frequently used to close modern worship.

McClendon begins with the third phrase of the Grace, calling the church--the believing community--the "fellowship of the Spirit."
Picking up the second phrase of that verse, "The Love of God," it is through the love of God that we become aware of the authority of God. Authority in the church can only come from God.
Finally, the first part of the verse, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ," he regards that as the historical narrative from Genesis to Pentecost, where the church was born.
Dr. McClendon's full exposition can be found in his Systematic Theology: Doctrine (Abingdon, 1994), 454-488.

Indeed, Paul wants order in the church. He condemns confusion in worship, but he would not silence any voice that is making a positive contribution. We cannot pervert Paul's "order" command to enforce a human hierarchy in the church, because all authority is in Christ who has never delegated it. Should a member of the church need discipline, it should not come from an authoratative leader, but rather the process described in Mt. 18. The offending party is not disciplined by an individual in whom authority has been vested, but by the community--first by a few, then by more, and finally by all (Mt. 18).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by trafield:

quote:

---

history does show that there were physical church buldings in Ephusus, in Smyrna, in Thessalonica, etc.

Where did you get this information and what are the dates they were there.

I just like to know what is true and what people just think to be true.

---

Did not the apostles witness in Roman buildings and public meeting places? And did not people go to hear them preach in or at these buildings?
Sure, they were often originally built as temples to false gods...but where two are more gather to hear the word, you have a church.
I cannot help you if you were expecting me to provide a link to an archeological discovery of a tablet that had "Fist Christian Church of Thessalonica" on it.

---

quote:

---

>>> Did not the apostles witness in Roman buildings and public meeting places?

Exactly! That is the point. They did not build their own building and stamp CHURCH on it. They went where the building we already built. Some or most of them were other peoples homes.

>> And did not people go to hear them preach in or at these buildings?

Yes and in them being in a public place, I am sure non-believers also listened to them. That is what I am trying to say.

>>> Sure, they were often originally built as temples to false gods...but where two are more gather to hear the word, you have a church.

Another AMEN! The place you meet don't have to be build and stamped with CHURCH so someone can meet as the Church. You can meet anywhere.

>>> I cannot help you if you were expecting me to provide a link to an archeological discovery of a tablet that had "Fist Christian Church of Thessalonica" on it.

I know you can't because there is no such thing. That is my point.

---

Okay, and are you going to let me know the next time you get away from this website and preach at the public library? I will be there.
 

---

Posted by trafield (Member # 5358) on :
 
David, in all serious I know what you are saying and agree with much of it. But I suppose I have always viewed the church building as a place where believers gathered to worship, fellowship, and encourage one another. Unfortunately, even that happens too little. However the point I am making is that church buildings have always been for the church. Yes, we can invite people and the church can reach the lost during services if they are in the building.
But the witnessing of the lost has always been prime-time out in the world, where the lost are...and usually by our own living examples.
And there are many good churches and church leaders that do both...disciple the flock on Sundays, and teach them to witness when they are not at church. So I just don't like to make the sweeping generalizations that a church building is a hinderance.
Now I am finally through with this topic and will focus on some that I can take a little more seriously.
 

---

Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on :
 
Where is this unity located?

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


Who is going to make up the the great masses called the whole world who are going to be deceived? Hasn't this quesxtion been asked before?

Mat 16:26
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Don't you people realize you are the church? I havn't seen one verse posted anywhere telling people to build buildings. Please post them again if I have missed them.

The churches plural were peoples in the various cities. They met at synoguagues if they were to here Paul, or read the letters of Peter and James. Paul did not once teach anywhere where there was not a synagague. Not once. And it was not the message he was later given to reveal to 'the church'.


What do you folks see happening around the world today? Is it not becoming the fulness of the kingdom of man, where man is being built up? Building unto himself things of this world? To ask another way, is it the few who are home embracing their Bible searching in the Word who we see on TV or is it the many?

If the whole world are going to be deceived, where then is the deceiver going to be doing his work?


It's real simple folks, the Lord has chosen different peoples for different purposes, some on earth, some in a heavenly city, some far above all heavens of heavens

there is a bride
there is a wife
there is a body


each have been chosen and called into an inheritance blessed in the respective spheres of blessings to which they were called. to mix these up is to ignore these major differences, notably marked by the words hope, calling, chosen, adoption, inheritance.

The Bible is clear on all of this. The only thing left is acknowledgment or denial. Moreover, the church which is called His body was not made manifest during the events of Acts, wherein the hope and calling was to the Jew only till AD 46, then it was to the Jew first, and for the hope of Israel.

After the events closed with prophecy quoted, there is no more propohecy quoted. No, the church is revealed. No prophecy. Not in prophecy.

Who is building the buildings?

What are the instructions for a member of the church, which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all? Who are these that are dead buried risen and seen seated with Him in the heavenly places?

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.


Are the buildings in the heavens where Christ sitteth, or are they on earth? Where are your affections?


Is that unity on the earth? Is it anywhere written that we are to create, duplicate, or otherwise make this unity?


Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Eph 4:3 Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


Ephesians is the oneness epistle, while Colossians is the fullness epistle. Philippians is the emptiness epistle, and 2 Timothy is the epistle of the completed course where the man of God is thoroughly furnished unto all good works. The good works are to guard, or keep that unity which exists not on this earth. It's aweful hard to walk the walk when the doctrine is either unknown or somebody elses.

The dispensation of the mystery revelation was given to Paul for you. That you may know, and that athorities and the very aristocrasy of the heavens might be made manifest something of the manifold wisdom of God {eph 3. 9, 10}
 

---

Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by trafield:
Okay, and are you going to let me know the next time you get away from this website and preach at the public library? I will be there.

---

Sure and you do the same.

Once again I will post what this topic is about:

Why I posted this quote is, I wanted to know if someone could refute this statement, "There does not exist a shred of Biblical support for the church building."

I meant refute it with Bible references in the New Testament. I don't care what men's tradition is, only what God actually told us.


:::::::::::::

Note in the above: I did not ask if you thought the church building is a hindrance not a help. I ask what I post above.

:::::::::::::::::::::::

I know that there are some good born-again believer meeting in buildings and they are making good use of them. But they are few and far between. So I am not talking about all buildings, just the ones that are not doing what is bibical. Tradition good or bad, is still not biblical and should not be taught as the word of God. PERIOD

:::::::::::::::::::::::

So if your tradition is so important to you that is OK with me. I am just wanting a bible reference to where someone build a Church building in the bible. And so far no one has done this. I have had a lot of opinions, but I did not ask for traditions, I ask for proof from the bible. So since you can not find any, you want to get personnel and sarcastic.

I can see our meeting in person tomorrow will be interesting.

I am not good and don't care to just set around shooting the breeze, so when we talk it will be about the bible.


 

---

Posted by trafield (Member # 5358) on :
 

quote:

---

So if your tradition is so important to you that is OK with me. I am just wanting a bible reference to where someone build a Church building in the bible. And so far no one has done this. I have had a lot of opinions, but I did not ask for traditions, I ask for proof from the bible. So since you can not find any, you want to get personnel and sarcastic.

---

quote:

---

I can see our meeting in person tomorrow will be interesting.

I am not good and don't care to just set around shooting the breeze, so when we talk it will be about the bible.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by trafield:

quote:

---

So if your tradition is so important to you that is OK with me. I am just wanting a bible reference to where someone build a Church building in the bible. And so far no one has done this. I have had a lot of opinions, but I did not ask for traditions, I ask for proof from the bible. So since you can not find any, you want to get personnel and sarcastic.

---

Again, I also cannot find in the Scriptures that we are to use an electric guitar in worship, but that would not keep me from using one to worship...if I could play it.
And if you want to stay legalistic, that is okay with me. I have been a little saracstic because I really think this is rather absurd. But to be personal, I would have to know you..so if anything I wrote hit home, you may want to consider it. I will be the first to admit that I do not know everyting. But this I do know...God is a God of Grace and Mercy.
God bless you,

Tracy (now I'm done.)

---

quote:

---

I sure hope your nicer in person then you are on the BBS. With the comments your making I don't think I am the one not giving out the brotherly love. Maybe you should look in the mirror.

And I see no reason not to make it public. It that suppost to be bad?

---

No, you read too much into things it seems.
And I am a loveable guy, though I am quite certain that you could point out some flaws for me.
 

---

Posted by trafield (Member # 5358) on :
 
Since David decided to make our planned meeting public, I susspose it is fair to mention that David cancelled. It seems David does not like to venture out of his confort zone after all...even in his own home. Oh well...

Here was his email to me:

Tracy,

After your being so rude on the message board. I think it best you just stay home tomorrow. I really don't care to meet someone so rude.

Thank you,
David Campbell
 

---

Posted by Pleasemaranatha (Member # 5150) on :
 
You are David Campbell???????????????


That is so cool!


He missed out on that meeting!
 

---

Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 
Very true, I saw no reason to meet with someone that just wanted to be rude.

I don't need my children exposed to someone like this.

Maybe you should try to be a little nicer when you want to meet people. I have no desire to argue with you. And if you are planning on starting your own church, I would suggest you learn some people skills.
 

---

Posted by Pleasemaranatha (Member # 5150) on :
 
I guess I wasn't clear with my earlier post. I got it all confused.


I thought tracy signed his name as David Campbell. I thought the admin of cbbs lost the chance to meet with tracy, trafield, David Campbell.

Wow when I mess up and get it upside down I really do it .

Anyway, sorry about that.
 

---

Posted by Chaplain Bob (Member # 5019) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by trafield:
Wow, David, even Jesus had some good things to say about the churches in Revelation!
.

---