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Topic: The church building
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epouraniois
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posted
I guess I just want to say before leaving this thread, that the word church does come from someplace, has a background, and does not mean a building, but called out ones. When these called out ones would chose to meet, it could be called church, but it happened in the wilderness, in the synagogue, in the house next to a synagogue. Are there more than one callings then, in the Bible? for ex., in resurrection hope, where is the various callings taking their beliefs - are they all going to heaven, or to Heavenly Jerusalem, or blessed in the earth, or are these seperate places, Biblically
Did Christ preach 'the church'
Did Christ preach 'the kingdom'
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epouraniois
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posted
imo, of import in the many differences, not to be overlooked is the church revealed in the prison epistles is the only set of letters sent to the nations, and in them there is one church. There are no pluralities there.
Once we pick it back up with Israel being worked out in Revelation, the word church becomes plural
In Eph 5:23 "Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body"
In Col 1:18 "He is the head of the body, the church"
In Col 1:24 "His body's sake, which is the church"
In Eph 1:22-23 "the church, Which is his body"
The members of this church manifest with Him when He manifests says Col 3:4, Now He is "hid in God" Col 4:3.
This church is seated "far above all", and "with Him".
In contrast, Revelation is about overcomers out of the tribes who fulfill the call - Mat 19:28 - to be a preistly nation - Exo 19:6 - to riegn with Christ - Rev 20:6. In this sphere of blessing, there are thrones and angels, a wife and a bride, and all things of the OT, all things of Israel.
They are never called "His body", nor referenced as "His body the church"/"the church His body".
When speaking of the church, His body, we don't find any angels to govern/rule/judge, but we are taken to a higher sphere where it is the aristocracy of heaven and whose athorities which are concernd by it, see Eph. 3:9.
I don't see how the following applies to any other company than the one Paul had been revealing for the first three chapters, as Israel finds her blessings, not in heavenly places, but on the earth and in the heavenly city. {Never Israel's -a city or earth - blessings for the church called 'His body'}:
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
I imagine that this church body time of calling will go as quietly as it came:
Act 28:29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
Act 28:30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
Act 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
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Chaplain Bob
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
Wow, David, even Jesus had some good things to say about the churches in Revelation!
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It's past time that many Christians stop making this mistake. When the Bible refers to the "Church" it is not talking about a religious, not-for-profit corporation or the building that houses it but the Body of Believers. Errors like this come about IMO from a failure to reasearch the Scripture to understand what it really means and a blind acceptance of whatever one is taught.
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In His Service,
Bob Allen
Posts: 209 | From: Checotah, Oklahoma | Registered: Aug 2005
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Pleasemaranatha
Advanced Member
Member # 5150
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posted
I guess I wasn't clear with my earlier post. I got it all confused. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I thought tracy signed his name as David Campbell. I thought the admin of cbbs lost the chance to meet with tracy, trafield, David Campbell. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Wow when I mess up and get it upside down I really do it ![[updown]](graemlins/updown.gif) .
Anyway, sorry about that. ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif) ![[wave3]](graemlins/18.gif)
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My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning. Psalms 130 verse 6
Joyce
Posts: 308 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
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KnowHim
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posted
Very true, I saw no reason to meet with someone that just wanted to be rude.
I don't need my children exposed to someone like this.
Maybe you should try to be a little nicer when you want to meet people. I have no desire to argue with you. And if you are planning on starting your own church, I would suggest you learn some people skills.
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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Pleasemaranatha
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posted
You are David Campbell???????????????
That is so cool! ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
He missed out on that meeting! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning. Psalms 130 verse 6
Joyce
Posts: 308 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
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trafield
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Member # 5358
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posted
Since David decided to make our planned meeting public, I susspose it is fair to mention that David cancelled. It seems David does not like to venture out of his confort zone after all...even in his own home. Oh well...
Here was his email to me:
Tracy,
After your being so rude on the message board. I think it best you just stay home tomorrow. I really don't care to meet someone so rude.
Thank you,
David Campbell
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
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trafield
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posted
quote:
I sure hope your nicer in person then you are on the BBS. With the comments your making I don't think I am the one not giving out the brotherly love. Maybe you should look in the mirror.
And I see no reason not to make it public. It that suppost to be bad?
No, you read too much into things it seems.
And I am a loveable guy, though I am quite certain that you could point out some flaws for me.
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
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KnowHim
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
quote:
So if your tradition is so important to you that is OK with me. I am just wanting a bible reference to where someone build a Church building in the bible. And so far no one has done this. I have had a lot of opinions, but I did not ask for traditions, I ask for proof from the bible. So since you can not find any, you want to get personnel and sarcastic.
Again, I also cannot find in the Scriptures that we are to use an electric guitar in worship, but that would not keep me from using one to worship...if I could play it.
And if you want to stay legalistic, that is okay with me. I have been a little saracstic because I really think this is rather absurd. But to be personal, I would have to know you..so if anything I wrote hit home, you may want to consider it. I will be the first to admit that I do not know everyting. But this I do know...God is a God of Grace and Mercy.
God bless you,
Tracy (now I'm done.)
I have no idea what you are talking about, you have missed the whole point of this thread. I believe you are just being rude. If you don't like the topic, pick another one.
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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trafield
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posted
quote:
I can see our meeting in person tomorrow will be interesting.
I am not good and don't care to just set around shooting the breeze, so when we talk it will be about the bible.
Gee, Thank you for the warm welcome...guess I will not be greeted with the Scriptural brotherly kiss, eh?
I wasn't going to make our meeting public, but since you already did, I thought I would come and joing you in prayer for your father-in-law.
I do not have a lot of time either, but believe me, I will be there.
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
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epouraniois
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posted
I was thinking that rocking chairs were made for Bible reading, and the words 'to and fro' came to mind, and i was thinking, where are they, in the latter days, going to be runnning to and fro towards, based upon the subject and object of the verse, they are seaking the knowledge of God. Where would they go to seek this, and only find famine there. I myself, know of one place only to find the word of God. And while some churches even sport an open Bible on a podium, do they read and teach it and only it?
to and fro
Amo 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and {worldly} knowledge shall be increased.
Psa 107:26 They mount up to the heaven, they go down again to the depths: their soul is melted because of trouble.
Psa 107:27 They reel to and fro, and stagger like a drunken man, and are at their wits' end.
Job 13:25 Wilt thou break a leaf driven to and fro? and wilt thou pursue the dry stubble?
Job 2:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Gen 8:7 And he sent forth a raven {an unclean bird}, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth.
Eph 4:3 Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace...
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man {teleios anēr}, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro
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epouraniois
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posted
Jesus Christ is the corner stone, and the foundation. Paul said, below, that it is the word sent to Paul for you that completes the word of God, and in this very setting and verses we find him manifestly declaring that the church is Christ's body. Are some of you made of bricks?
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Which one of the five senses can be used to worship in spirit and in truth? The Bible clearly states whether the church is a building of called out bricks and stones, or called out people.
A friend of mine said it pretty well I thought when he said, "I'm in church twenty-four/seven".
Col 1:23
...the hope of the gospel...whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Col 1:24
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
Col 1:25
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God;
Col 1:26
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Col 1:28
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Col 1:29
Whereunto I also labor, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
Please note that was from the same epistle stating to set your affections not on this earth, that your life is hid with Christ in God.
Eph 2:19
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto a holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God through the Spirit.
The sphere spoken of here is unique in that it is in the superheavenlies.
Reasonings that state otherwise and seem to part from God's Word must have been thuroughly upon the apostles mind even then, for he does not hesitate to declare that many are enemies of the cross, but that they would have to be saved by fire:
1Co 3:9
For we are laborers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
1Co 3:10
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Co 3:11
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
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trafield
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posted
quote:
So if your tradition is so important to you that is OK with me. I am just wanting a bible reference to where someone build a Church building in the bible. And so far no one has done this. I have had a lot of opinions, but I did not ask for traditions, I ask for proof from the bible. So since you can not find any, you want to get personnel and sarcastic.
Again, I also cannot find in the Scriptures that we are to use an electric guitar in worship, but that would not keep me from using one to worship...if I could play it.
And if you want to stay legalistic, that is okay with me. I have been a little saracstic because I really think this is rather absurd. But to be personal, I would have to know you..so if anything I wrote hit home, you may want to consider it. I will be the first to admit that I do not know everyting. But this I do know...God is a God of Grace and Mercy.
God bless you,
Tracy (now I'm done.)
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
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KnowHim
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
Okay, and are you going to let me know the next time you get away from this website and preach at the public library? I will be there.
Sure and you do the same.
Once again I will post what this topic is about:
Why I posted this quote is, I wanted to know if someone could refute this statement, "There does not exist a shred of Biblical support for the church building."
I meant refute it with Bible references in the New Testament. I don't care what men's tradition is, only what God actually told us.
:::::::::::::
Note in the above: I did not ask if you thought the church building is a hindrance not a help. I ask what I post above.
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I know that there are some good born-again believer meeting in buildings and they are making good use of them. But they are few and far between. So I am not talking about all buildings, just the ones that are not doing what is bibical. Tradition good or bad, is still not biblical and should not be taught as the word of God. PERIOD
:::::::::::::::::::::::
So if your tradition is so important to you that is OK with me. I am just wanting a bible reference to where someone build a Church building in the bible. And so far no one has done this. I have had a lot of opinions, but I did not ask for traditions, I ask for proof from the bible. So since you can not find any, you want to get personnel and sarcastic.
I can see our meeting in person tomorrow will be interesting.
I am not good and don't care to just set around shooting the breeze, so when we talk it will be about the bible.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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epouraniois
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posted
Where is this unity located?
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Who is going to make up the the great masses called the whole world who are going to be deceived? Hasn't this quesxtion been asked before?
Mat 16:26
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Don't you people realize you are the church? I havn't seen one verse posted anywhere telling people to build buildings. Please post them again if I have missed them.
The churches plural were peoples in the various cities. They met at synoguagues if they were to here Paul, or read the letters of Peter and James. Paul did not once teach anywhere where there was not a synagague. Not once. And it was not the message he was later given to reveal to 'the church'.
What do you folks see happening around the world today? Is it not becoming the fulness of the kingdom of man, where man is being built up? Building unto himself things of this world? To ask another way, is it the few who are home embracing their Bible searching in the Word who we see on TV or is it the many?
If the whole world are going to be deceived, where then is the deceiver going to be doing his work?
It's real simple folks, the Lord has chosen different peoples for different purposes, some on earth, some in a heavenly city, some far above all heavens of heavens
there is a bride
there is a wife
there is a body
each have been chosen and called into an inheritance blessed in the respective spheres of blessings to which they were called. to mix these up is to ignore these major differences, notably marked by the words hope, calling, chosen, adoption, inheritance.
The Bible is clear on all of this. The only thing left is acknowledgment or denial. Moreover, the church which is called His body was not made manifest during the events of Acts, wherein the hope and calling was to the Jew only till AD 46, then it was to the Jew first, and for the hope of Israel.
After the events closed with prophecy quoted, there is no more propohecy quoted. No, the church is revealed. No prophecy. Not in prophecy.
Who is building the buildings?
What are the instructions for a member of the church, which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all? Who are these that are dead buried risen and seen seated with Him in the heavenly places?
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Are the buildings in the heavens where Christ sitteth, or are they on earth? Where are your affections?
Is that unity on the earth? Is it anywhere written that we are to create, duplicate, or otherwise make this unity?
Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Eph 4:3 Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Ephesians is the oneness epistle, while Colossians is the fullness epistle. Philippians is the emptiness epistle, and 2 Timothy is the epistle of the completed course where the man of God is thoroughly furnished unto all good works. The good works are to guard, or keep that unity which exists not on this earth. It's aweful hard to walk the walk when the doctrine is either unknown or somebody elses.
The dispensation of the mystery revelation was given to Paul for you. That you may know, and that athorities and the very aristocrasy of the heavens might be made manifest something of the manifold wisdom of God {eph 3. 9, 10}
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trafield
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David, in all serious I know what you are saying and agree with much of it. But I suppose I have always viewed the church building as a place where believers gathered to worship, fellowship, and encourage one another. Unfortunately, even that happens too little. However the point I am making is that church buildings have always been for the church. Yes, we can invite people and the church can reach the lost during services if they are in the building.
But the witnessing of the lost has always been prime-time out in the world, where the lost are...and usually by our own living examples.
And there are many good churches and church leaders that do both...disciple the flock on Sundays, and teach them to witness when they are not at church. So I just don't like to make the sweeping generalizations that a church building is a hinderance.
Now I am finally through with this topic and will focus on some that I can take a little more seriously.
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
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trafield
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posted
quote:
>>> Did not the apostles witness in Roman buildings and public meeting places?
Exactly! That is the point. They did not build their own building and stamp CHURCH on it. They went where the building we already built. Some or most of them were other peoples homes.
>> And did not people go to hear them preach in or at these buildings?
Yes and in them being in a public place, I am sure non-believers also listened to them. That is what I am trying to say.
>>> Sure, they were often originally built as temples to false gods...but where two are more gather to hear the word, you have a church.
Another AMEN! The place you meet don't have to be build and stamped with CHURCH so someone can meet as the Church. You can meet anywhere.
>>> I cannot help you if you were expecting me to provide a link to an archeological discovery of a tablet that had "Fist Christian Church of Thessalonica" on it.
I know you can't because there is no such thing. That is my point.
Okay, and are you going to let me know the next time you get away from this website and preach at the public library? I will be there.
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
quote:
history does show that there were physical church buldings in Ephusus, in Smyrna, in Thessalonica, etc.
Where did you get this information and what are the dates they were there.
I just like to know what is true and what people just think to be true.
Did not the apostles witness in Roman buildings and public meeting places? And did not people go to hear them preach in or at these buildings?
Sure, they were often originally built as temples to false gods...but where two are more gather to hear the word, you have a church.
I cannot help you if you were expecting me to provide a link to an archeological discovery of a tablet that had "Fist Christian Church of Thessalonica" on it. ![[cool_shades]](graemlins/cool_shades.gif)
>>> Did not the apostles witness in Roman buildings and public meeting places?
Exactly! That is the point. They did not build their own building and stamp CHURCH on it. They went where the buildings we already built. Some or most of them were other peoples homes.
>> And did not people go to hear them preach in or at these buildings?
Yes and in them being in a public place, I am sure non-believers also listened to them. That is what I am trying to say.
>>> Sure, they were often originally built as temples to false gods...but where two are more gather to hear the word, you have a church.
Another AMEN! The place you meet don't have to be build and stamped with CHURCH so someone can meet as the Church. You can meet anywhere.
>>> I cannot help you if you were expecting me to provide a link to an archeological discovery of a tablet that had "Fist Christian Church of Thessalonica" on it.
I know you can't because there is no such thing. That is my point.
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Eduardo Grequi
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THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS GETTING AT. IN CHRISTIANDOM THERE IS ONLY ONE CHURCH AND THAT IS THE BODY OF CHRIST;
HOWEVER THERE ARE MANY PLACES THAT SAY THEY ARE THE CHURCH, BUT BY THEIR FRUIT YOU SHALL KNOW THEM. JUST BECAUSE IT MAY WALK LIKE A DUCK, QUACK LIKE A DUCK- BUT WHEN YOU PLUCK THE FEATHERS OFF YOU HAVE A VULTURE. SEEKING WHOMEVER IT WANTS TO DEVOUR. KIND A LIKE EVOLUTION BEING BUILT MORE AND MORE OF FUSED BONES AND LESS LIKE THE CREATURE THE WAY GOD ALMIGHTY CREATED IT.
MIGUEL-
THAT IS HEAVY- IT HAPPENED TO MY FRIEND IN DALLAS. IT WENT TO THE POINT THAT MY FRIEND'S WIFE WALKED OUT ON HIM.
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Miguel
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We know a building does not have hands or feet’s but it could be a "thing" than can cause men to be a hindrance to others. Especially when their noses are so high they cannot perceive the Truth and do not see where is the path.
Take a look at this prevalent stories that is normal in this last days.............
ps. Pray about this.
quote:
So much of what is expressed on this site is an echo of my heart's cry regarding the church. About five years ago my wife and I were basically thrown out of a Baptist Church because we simply asked the pastor to show us--from the scriptures--a justification for what they were doing. At the time I was serving as a deacon and a Bible study teacher. I expressed both via letter and phone conversation that I needed them to present to me scriptural support for (1) having more than half the $1.2 million budget go to staff salaries and benefits, (2) slashing all charity/benevolence from the budget, (3) using a hot marketing firm to recruit members, and (4) spending $12,000 for huge video screens. I told them that I would gladly recant my resistance and support them if they could show me that the church there was operating according to scriptural principles. Immediately their response was "If you're not happy here, go somewhere else."
I ended up voting against the budget, the marketing program, and whatever else I felt conviction was wrong. Consequently, I was shunned by all "leadership" and made to look like a renegade. All I wanted was for the church to be faithful to what the Bible taught. I was called into a private "conference" with the deacon board leadership and hammered about both my "lack of respect" and my less than 100% support of everything the pastor did. I was told I could not be a deacon if I did not submit and publicly agree with the pastor and the budget. All I did was express my concerns from passages of scripture and emphasize the desire to see scriptural defense/support from them or the pastor. They offered none, of course. Needless to say I resigned shortly after that (but not until I saw them publicly attack and humiliate another deacon who asked a simple, honest question about how staff were recruited--it was then that I wanted no part of that "office").
Shortly thereafter a fellow teacher and I were called into the pastor's office (by deceit of someone else calling us and giving us a vague reason for needing to talk). The pastor and executive pastor both commenced shaking their fingers in our faces, calling us "wolves," accusing us of undermining the church, laughing in our faces, mocking us by comparing their "years of professional ministry and study" to our relative amateurism, and tauntingly yelled at us, "you don't have any power!!!" They subsequently tossed us out as teachers and sent "agents" to a Bible study we held on Wednesday nights to take over and destroy the Spirit-led efforts there.
When I was asked, "why aren't you teaching any more?," I always responded, "you really don't want to know." Only after they relentlessly insisted I tell them did I hand them a packet containing the letters that went back-and-forth between me and the pastor and complete transcripts (generated immediately from memory after the meetings) of the conversations I had with various members of the "leadership." In every case the "friends" handed the packet back after reading through it, and proceeded to treat my wife and I like lepers. No one would believe what happened and no one would support us--we were abandoned by many close "friends."
Not all turned their backs, but none of them came to embrace the direction I ultimately went. God used this trial to urge me along in my study of "what the church ought to really be/do." I now know that what is called "church" these days is a distorted, pale shadow of what is found in the Bible. Praise God that He takes what is seems to be ruins and builds glorious mansions. I would like the Lord to use me in forming a house church--pray for us.
You have no idea how many stories like this arrive at House Church Central. So many churches seem to exist for the sole purpose of inflating the ego of their "leaders."
One proof text I've had thrown in my face by those who defend despotic leaders in the church is 1 Pet. 5:5. Those who wield this verse read it as if God had ordained "elders" as dictators over the flock. In so doing they neglect to see what the "elders" that Peter is actually talking about are doing. They are not "lording" over the flock--they are being "examples" (see verse. 3). They are stepping out in suffering service so that those "in their charge" might learn to do likewise. (See also Jas. 5, and note that it is the "elders" who are visiting the sick and saying "the prayer of faith.").
When the New Testament speaks of "leadership," it never means human authority--authority belongs to the Lord alone, who has not delegated it. The leadership Peter is speaking of is stepping out in suffering service, imitating our Lord's own witness, as an expression of God's love for the world.
Being told that you"could not be a deacon" if you "did not submit..." is especially ironic in view of the meaning of the word "deacon," which is "servant."
Your separation from that church was no doubt painful, but if you look back on it, your leaving might better be interpreted as a deliverance. I hope you will connect to a proper fellowship soon--whether it be a house church or an institutional church that understands the right meaning of "leadership."
How can discipline be handed out without some authority? We are all to be subject to one and other yet some group (elders/Pastors etc) needs to be the Spiritual leaders and act as Spiritual parents at times. I think their role is both servant and authority. Jesus was viewed as a servant but then as the authority depending on a given situation. I do believe that both the Church and the cell can share the center of worship idea that you mentioned. Both will draw different types of people who picture church life differently. Please comment.
Your question probably arise from the the "green-key" essay titled .
I attended a lecture a few years ago by the late professor James Wm. McClendon, probably the greatest (in my view) writing American theologian of our age. A question similar to yours was asked, and Dr. McClendon responded something like this: "Why do [people] keep trying to bring authority and heirarchy back into the church?"
Referring to what he called "rule of Paul," which he finds in 1 Cor 14:26, all in the fellowship need to be heard. None should be silenced. Silencing voices through whom the Spirit may be working quences the Spirit.
Dr. McClendon did a capsule exegesis of 2 Cor. 13:13, the famous benediction often called "the Grace" and frequently used to close modern worship.
McClendon begins with the third phrase of the Grace, calling the church--the believing community--the "fellowship of the Spirit."
Picking up the second phrase of that verse, "The Love of God," it is through the love of God that we become aware of the authority of God. Authority in the church can only come from God.
Finally, the first part of the verse, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ," he regards that as the historical narrative from Genesis to Pentecost, where the church was born.
Dr. McClendon's full exposition can be found in his Systematic Theology: Doctrine (Abingdon, 1994), 454-488.
Indeed, Paul wants order in the church. He condemns confusion in worship, but he would not silence any voice that is making a positive contribution. We cannot pervert Paul's "order" command to enforce a human hierarchy in the church, because all authority is in Christ who has never delegated it. Should a member of the church need discipline, it should not come from an authoratative leader, but rather the process described in Mt. 18. The offending party is not disciplined by an individual in whom authority has been vested, but by the community--first by a few, then by more, and finally by all (Mt. 18).
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
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trafield
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Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Christ taught in the out of doors, and only rarely taught in the Temple, and that was done to rebuke the leaders of the Temple as is clearly stated thru out the text.
Some say that the church is the highest authority and over the authority of the Bible, but that is not what the Bible says:
II Peter 1:21
"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
So, there we have it, the Holy Ghost [Spirit] is the authority over the Bible!!!
Amen.
So there we have it. The problem of the Church is not the building, the problem is the Church (people)!
That stings...but let it sink in a bit. It is easy to blame the building.
1 Peter 4:17
17For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
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epouraniois
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Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body.
herein are presented the closest of all Biblical relationships, contrasting it with the previously made known closest relationship; head and body are closer than man and wife, wherein the church body is connected to the head/Christ;
Eph 5:24 Therefore AS the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even AS Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Did Christ give Himself for bricks, stones, or for people? Are bricks, stones the glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish? or can we just be frank here and admit that the church is the body of believers?
quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
[QB] quote:
history does show that there were physical church buldings in Ephusus, in Smyrna, in Thessalonica, etc.
Where did you get this information and what are the dates they were there.
I just like to know what is true and what people just think to be true.
Did not the apostles witness in Roman buildings and public meeting places? And did not people go to hear them preach in or at these buildings?
Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Christ taught in the out of doors, and only rarely taught in the Temple, and that was done to rebuke the leaders of the Temple as is clearly stated thru out the text.
Some say that the church is the highest authority and over the authority of the Bible, but that is not what the Bible says:
II Peter 1:21
"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
So, there we have it, the Holy Ghost [Spirit] is the authority over the Bible!!!
Does it say the prophets spoke as they were moved by the church? Of course not. The church is represented in the Bible as a many membered body of called out ones. Called out of the things of this world.
was the church a building or a people:
Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
what did He add to the church daily? was it bricks, stones, or people? Israel was the church in the wilderness.
Act 5:11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
did fear come upon the bricks, stones, or people?
Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us
was He among His people, or among bricks/stones -
the lively oracles {words of the living God were given to the church, to Israel}
Act 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles.
was Saul percecuting bricks, stones, or people?
Act 11:22 Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch.
do the bricks, stones have ears or do people?
1Co 10:32 Give none offense, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
were the bricks, stones offendable, or is it people?
1Co 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
do all the bricks, stones come together into one place, or do people?
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.
is His body, the church made up of bricks, stones, or people?
Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
are principalities and powers in heavenly places learning something of the manifold wisdom of God from bricks, stones, or the people?
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Joh 6:48 I am that bread of life.
God has even told us that these earthly church systems will fail Bethel means house of God.:
Amo 5:5 But seek not Bethel, nor enter into Gilgal, and pass not to Beersheba: for Gilgal shall surely go into captivity, and Bethel shall come to nought.
The prophets of old fullfilled thousands of prophesies before there was anything called a "church"[ekklesia]. The word isn't even in the OT.
They do have a word, it is Kahal, where we get our word "call" from, and occurs 123 times in the OT: "congregation" 86, "assembly" 17, "company" 17, and multitude 3 times.
The Sept. (Greek) uses "sunagoge" and "ekklesia" as practically synonyymous terms, yet the sunagoge concerns the bringing together of the "members" of an exesting society or body excluding all others, whereas the "ekklesai" calls and invites all men, including outsiders everwhere to join in belief. It is extremely important to be aware of the differences in application, determined by the subject and object, as it is most confusing to relate the church which was in the wilderness to the church of the prison epistles, for example.
In fact Christ that the people are the church, not some building. Yes, any group of people can call themselves a church, but that isn't what God was talking about, in fact, look at this:
"17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are [your flesh body]." (1 Cor 3; KJV)
Jer 7:4 Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, are these.
Jer 7:5 For if ye throughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye throughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour;
Jer 7:6 If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:
Jer 7:7 Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.
Jer 7:8 Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit.
Jer 7:9 Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not;
Jer 7:10 And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations?
Jer 7:11 Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen it, saith the LORD.
You want to know where Satan is doing his work? If the above verses didn't say it clearly enough, then look at these:
2 Cor 11:14-15
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Lets look at the Greek word for transformed:
3345 metaschematizo (met-askh-ay-mat-id'-zo);
from 3326 and a derivative of 4976; to transfigure or disguise; figuratively, to apply (by accommodation):
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trafield
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quote:
history does show that there were physical church buldings in Ephusus, in Smyrna, in Thessalonica, etc.
Where did you get this information and what are the dates they were there.
I just like to know what is true and what people just think to be true.
Did not the apostles witness in Roman buildings and public meeting places? And did not people go to hear them preach in or at these buildings?
Sure, they were often originally built as temples to false gods...but where two are more gather to hear the word, you have a church.
I cannot help you if you were expecting me to provide a link to an archeological discovery of a tablet that had "Fist Christian Church of Thessalonica" on it.
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trafield
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Luke 16:19 - 25 (KJV)
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
You reap what you sow.
The rich man, had a selfish, unloving heart and paid the price for it in eternity. And yet Abraham was a rich man who was also a loving, faithful person, as was Job, as was David, etc.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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ughhh! ![[1zhelp]](graemlins/1zhelp.gif) I just realized that I wrote:"are the church buildings doing this." I am sorry! I meant "Are they doing this in the Church Buidings?" Hopefuly you knew that from my example and did not think I was being sarcastic.
Tracy, I am sorry that you think this a silly subject. I think it is a great subject. It is interesting and we I believe we should be asking our selves these kinds of questions.
As for historical evidence of church buildings in Ephesus, Symna and Thessalonica: I would be interested to see such documentation from the first and even the greater part of the second century. I am not aware of this and am aware of documentation contrary to this.
But, even if there were some, the fact remains that there is no Biblical record of such and no record of any scriptural instruction to the buying ir building of "church" buildings.
Every reference in the scripture speaks to the meeting in homes or in a public place.
I found this article on the subject with reference notes which I thought was good:
Christian Churches and Assemblies
In the
First Century
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So those who welcomed his message were baptized, and that day about three thousand persons were added. They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.
Awe came upon everyone, because many wonders and signs were being done by the apostles. All who believed were together and had all things in common; they would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds to all, as any had need. Day by day, as they spent much time together in the temple, they broke bread at home and ate their food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having the goodwill of all the people. And day by day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved. --Acts 2:41-47 NRSV
One of the difficulties people face in emerging from a life-domineering religious organization is where to find solace to fill the social and spiritual void left in its wake. Where there had seemingly been clear guidance for every aspect of Christian living, with answers to every question through the dictates of policy-making leadership, self-proclaimed to be spirit-directed by Almighty God, there is now little that remains in its place except bewilderment.
We entrusted our faith to an authoritarian organization, served it to the utmost and based important life decisions on that faith, only to eventually discover our devotion was to the illusions of imperfect humans who were not the emissaries of God that we had believed. The table on which we had perceived a bountiful banquet is bare. The flourishing oasis we envisioned in a parched desert was a mirage. Some may feel lost in a spiritual wilderness without refuge, wary to ever again trust any kind of organization for worship lest they fall prey to another order of mind control and deception.
Yet how are we to seek and sustain a meaningful relationship with our Creator apart from association with fellow Christians? How do we apply the instruction of the apostle Paul who counselled, "let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, . . ."? (Hebrews 10:24,25 - NAS)
Now we must ask, can there be Christian association without submitting to domination by men? Can there be unity in Christ without conformity to a central earthly authority? Can there be Christian freedom in assembly? Or can people and families study the Bible in approved worship independent of association with larger groups? To understand these and other questions about Christian fellowship, we look to the Scriptures to discover how the followers of Jesus worshipped together, and later how they assembled as a church after his death and resurrection in the first century CE.
In order to understand the meaning of church in the early Christian community, we must examine a Greek word ekklesia from which the word "church" is translated.
The "church" (ekklesia) in the first century
A literal translation of the Greek word ekklesia means, in the general sense, "assembly" or "gathering. " From the fifth century BC it was applied to any group of Greek citizens who came together in meeting for a purpose. In the Greek translation of the "Old Testament" (Septuagint), the word ekklesia denoted an assembly of Israelites, and the term was also sometimes interchanged with the word for "synagogue."
The word church (ekklesia) appears in only two verses in the Gospels, both in the book of Matthew and spoken by Jesus. In the first occurrence, Jesus tells Peter: "upon this rock I build my church." (Matt. 16:18) Here Jesus applies "church" in a universal sense as meaning the whole spiritual assembly of all Christians, the "rock" being his spiritual "body" (Col.1:18) of which he, the Christ, would be the head. (Eph.5:23) In this application there is an implied relationship to the universal church of his future Kingdom. In his second reference to "church," Jesus instructs a believer to appeal to the "church" when a member, a wrong-doer, will not heed private admonition. (Matt. 18:17) In this definition, the term applies more generally to a local "congregation." In deed some translators render ekklesia here as "congregation" (for example, NEB) or "community" (JB). It is this second definition that we are concerned with for consideration of Christians assembling together for worship in our time.
Other than Jesus' two references to "church" in Matthew, it does not appear to be the term generally used by his disciples or the Jews to describe their gatherings prior to the writing of Paul in the Epistles. It was some years later, in his letters to Gentile congregations, that the apostle Paul regularly employed the word "church" in reference to groups of Christians in their various communities.[1] In the Bible, the word "church" is first seen in his greeting to the Christians in Thessalonica. (1 Thess. 1:1) Thereafter, "church" is recorded some sixty times in the writings about his ministry to the Gentile Christians. That he viewed the "churches" as independent congregations is clear from the fact that he uses the plural word (ekklesias) when writing a letter to several groups, for example in his letter to "the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea" (1 Thess.2:14) and in his letter to "all the churches of the saints" (1 Cor. 14:33). Throughout the record of Paul's ministry, it is clearly evident that the early communities of Christians did share in independent group fellowships called "churches." The only way "church" was applied collectively to multiple congregations was reference to an assembly of more than one congregation, or when it was applied in the universal sense of all Christians in union with Christ. "Church" was never used in reference to Christianity as a religious denomination. In Harper's Bible Dictionary, under the definition of "church" it is stated this way:
"In the NT "church" always denotes a group of people, either all the Christians in a city (Acts 14:23, 1 Cor.1:2; 2 Cor.1:1) or those gathered for worship in a particular house (Rom. 16:5; 1 Cor.16:19) or all Christians in all the churches, the whole church (Matt. 16:18; Eph. 1:22). It never signifies a building or a "denomination." [Bold not in original.]
Where did first-century Christians meet?
There are no specific commands in the Bible as to where or how often Christians should meet. However we can learn much by what the Scriptures reveal in the various references to church meetings. Notably there is no mention of any church-owned property or permanent meeting place. Meetings were held in various homes and in public places, including the Temple (Acts 2:46; 5:12, 42), or out in the open as on the Mount of Olives (Acts 1:6) or on the seashore (Acts 21:5), or in "an upper room" (Acts 1:13-14; 2:1-2; 20:1). Specific homes mentioned are Cornelius's house (Acts 10:27), Simon's (Acts 10:6), Mary's (Acts 12:5, 12), Lydia's (Acts 16:40), Jason's (Acts 17:5), Justus' (Acts 18:7), Philip's (Acts 21:7), as well as the apostle Paul's abode (Acts 28:23-30).
". . . while I did not hold back from telling you any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching you publicly and from house to house.* --Acts 20:20 New World Translation Rev. 1971 edition. [Footnote: *Or, "and in the private houses."--pg. 1162]
In the Epistles, the only buildings specifically mentioned as used for church meetings are private houses. These include Priscilla and Aquila's house (Rom. 16:5; 1 Cor. 16:19); Nympha's house (Col. 4:15) and Philemon's house (Philem. 2). It is generally supposed the groups were relatively small, numbering anywhere from the immediate members of one household up to perhaps approximately 40 in more affluent homes.
Due to persecution in the first century, Christians met wherever they could. Christianity was not recognized as an exclusive religion by the Roman government before the time of Constantine.
"Until the second century Christians were not permitted to erect churches, but were compelled to worship in private homes, in the open fields, or, to escape persecution, in the Catacombs (q.v.) and other concealed places."[2]
Church historian, Quintus Tertullian, early in the third century writes: "Lastly, if you cannot assemble by day, you have the night . . . . Be content with a church of threes. It is better that you sometimes should not see your crowds, . . . ."[3] And Jesus did say: "For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them." (Matt. 18:20 NRSV)[4]
How did they fellowship?
The early Christians served as a support group for one another. To embrace the Gospel meant to embrace one another in brotherhood and fellowship as members of the dwelling of God. As Paul said:
"So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are citizens with the saints and also members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone. In him the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built together spiritually into a dwelling place for God." -Eph.2:19-22 NRSV
They shared their possessions (Acts 2:44-47) and made provision for those less fortunate, widows and orphans (Acts 6:1-7). They were known for their love and loyalty to one another as noted by one early historian:
"They abstain from all impurity in the hope of the recompense that is to come in another world. As for their servants or handmaids or children, they persuade them to become Christians by the love they have for them; and when they become so, they call them without distinction, brothers. They do not worship strange gods; and they walk in all humility and kindness, and falsehood is not found among them; and they love one another. When they see the stranger they bring him to their homes and rejoice over him as over a true brother; for they do not call those who are after the flesh, but those who are in the Spirit and in God.
"And there is among them a man that is poor and needy and if they have not an abundance of necessities, they fast two or three days, that they may supply the needy with the necessary food. "They observe scrupulously the commandment of their Messiah; they live honestly and soberly as the Lord their God commanded them. Every morning and all hours on account of the goodness of God toward them, they render praise and laud Him over their food and their drink; they render Him thanks.
"And if any righteous person of their number passes away from this world, they rejoice and give thanks to God and they follow his body as though he were moving from one place to another. And when a child is born to them, they praise God, and if again it chances to die in its infancy, they praise God mightily, as for one who has passed through the world without sins.
"Such is the law of the Christians and such is their conduct."[5]
Meals were central to the life of the early church. Luke gives a glimpse of the early church days in telling us: "They broke bread in their homes ["house to house" in the KJV] and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people." (Acts 2:46,47 NIV). Meals made fellowships a joyous occasion which became a way of demonstrating and celebrating their new kinship in Jesus' family. Meals specifically associated with fellowship and worship have been called love [agape] meals, which may also have relevance to partaking of the emblems of Christ. And they sang songs, as it says: "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly; teach and admonish one another in all wisdom; and with gratitude in your hearts sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs to God. And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him." (Col.3:16,17)
Summary
"Church," then, in its most fundamental definition means people, specifically the people of God. The Christian church was born with the first converts from the multitude gathered for the day of Penticost after Jesus' ascension. (Acts 2:37-42) They were commissioned to then spread the gospel ("good news") message of hope in God's kingdom through Christ. (Matt. 28:19-20; 2 Tim.4:1-5) The church in its universal sense means all Christians in the body of Christ and alludes to that promised Kingdom.
"But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy." -1 Pet.2:2-10
The kingdom in one sense is a present reality, a life-support system for those who believe and accept Jesus Christ and his gospel. Christians become part of the kingdom of God on earth. However, they experience the kingdom in only a partial sense. The fullness of the kingdom is our destination and our goal. Yet a foretaste of the kingdom is present now in the Body of Christ. It is this present reality that enables and empowers us to be Christian pilgrims (2 Pet. 1:3-4)
The church is not a corporate body. It is not a building or a structure. The church is not a multi-national institutional conglomerate. The church is people. That is not to say that people of God should not organize for fellowship. The Scriptures give a basic structure and coherency to the people of God. But the church should never forget that it is comprised of people in union with the Lord, Jesus Christ. It is unfortunate that the history of Christianity demonstrates the people of God have often been overlooked, forgotten and even abused by the corporate institution of the church.
[1] See Rom. 16:1; 1 Cor. 1:2; 2 Cor. 1:1; 1 Thess. 1:1, 2 Thess.1:1.
[2] 'Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature,' McClintock/Strong, Vol.22, pg 334.
[3] 'De Fuga In persecutions' as translated by Rev. S. Thelwall in 'The Ante-Nicene Fathers,' Vol. IV, page 125.
[4] Early historians such as Justin, Pliny, and Tertullian all wrote descriptions of Christian meetings and did not mention any type of church building.
[5] The Apology of Aristides, Syriac text and translation. Cited in Encyclopedia Britannica, Vol. 1 (Chicago Encyclopedia Britannica, Inc.), page 346. 7
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redkermit
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by David:
Maybe if some people would defend the truth in the bible as hard as they do their traditions, a lot more people would know why Jesus really give His life for us.
You're preaching good today bro'!
One thing that happened in my church recently was that we just became totally debt free & are starting to build up some cash flow. So there have been months and months of board meetings deciding what to do - building plan, improvements, etc. While our facilities could use some upgrades for safety reasons (we have a daycare ministry), I haven't heard any talk about outreach or helping the poor, etc.
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I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked. (Ps. 84:10b)
1 John 2:6
Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
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So tarfield what do you think about the below:
Luke 16:19 - 25 (KJV)
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
Wow, David, even Jesus had some good things to say about the churches in Revelation!
I sense a bitter root there, brother...whatch out that it does not defile!
I have nothing but good to say about the true born-again believers in Jesus Christ. But I don't have much at all good to say about the buildings.
Jesus was talking about the people, not the buildings. And yes there are still a lot of born-again believer out there doing what Jesus told us to do. I thank God for the true Church that is still putting Him first. The first commandments is to have no other God's before me. That includes the building, programs, etc.....
So all I am trying to do is get some people to wake up and put God as number #1.
Maybe if some people would defend the truth in the bible as hard as they do their traditions, a lot more people would know why Jesus really give His life for us.
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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trafield
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Wow, David, even Jesus had some good things to say about the churches in Revelation!
I sense a bitter root there, brother...whatch out that it does not defile!
By the way, history does show that there were physical church buldings in Ephusus, in Smyrna, in Thessalonica, etc. And though much writing was done to the Christians of these churches, nothing was ever written of the buildings being a hinderence. However, there is much writing about the unfruitul, unloving and divisive people within the churches in these ancient cities.
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quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
[QUOTE]This really is a silly topic.
Only if it is OK with you and it does not bother you that the widows and orphans suffer because of the pomp of some so called churches.
To just blow it off as there is nothing to it would tell me that tradition rules over what the bible actually tells us to do.
Burying your head in the sand will not make it go away, nor does it make it right.
That is how the church got in this shape to begin with, they don't read their bibles and have no clue what is going on other then the traditions they are taught from the pulpit at church.
It is time to teach the truth and that is it is all about Jesus Christ and not about tradition. We are to come to him to serve Him, not the over way around. He is King and we are not.
I would rather be the poor man anytime then the rich man in Luke 16:19.
This life is very, very short. A mist compared to eternity and God has given us this short time to see if we will actually do as He asks, or will we try to build our own kingdom here on earth, when our kingdom is suppost to be in heaven.
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If the building where born-again followers of Jesus Christ is being used to help the widows and orphans.
Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. - James 1:26-27
Using it 24/7/365 to do the above, then it would be a wonderful use of a building. But to just leave it setting empty most of the time, or even worse use for your own entertainment such as the world does it not found in my bible. Sadly that is the state of most of the church buildings. And even if they do have a christian school or something it would cost you and arm and leg to pay for your child to go. So that leaves out the poor folks again.
Luke 16:19 - 25 (KJV)
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Whom are these people and why is one of God's children poor? Could it be the rich church with it purple robs are hording the blessings of God and not taking care of God's children?
Could it be that all the money church buildings take in weekly in the 10's of $1000.00's and they give some poor a widow $300.00 to pay her bills and think they did good. But really that is just crumbs from the rich man's table. $300.00 would not take care of much at all. But this happens all the time because when they do get together and take up a SPECIAL offering, not give out of what they have already taken in because they just don't have it left over after paying for the building, etc.... then to add to that they get up in front of the church and tell the persons name and how great they did raising the $300.00 to give to this poor soul. It is sicking!
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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trafield
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quote:
These are church buildings that do this? If so that is wonderful. It has always driven me nuts to see church building doors closed and locked up 6 days of the week. Many years ago when I was in Florida, the Lutheran church that my sister-in -law attended and my husband and she grew up in served as a food pantry/clothing and household goods distribution center and soup kitchen to the homeless during the week. I thought that was a wonderful use of the building too; like I said I do not question that there are wonderful things going on in some church buildings. I just question if it is the best way. And yes, it absouletly is a matter of one's perspective!
No, it is actually the people in the church buildings that are doing this.
Of course they do not house them in the sanctuary, but in seperate "buildings," on church property.
This really is a silly topic.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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These are church buildings that do this? If so that is wonderful. It has always driven me nuts to see church building doors closed and locked up 6 days of the week. Many years ago when I was in Florida, the Lutheran church that my sister-in -law attended and my husband and she grew up in served as a food pantry/clothing and household goods distribution center and soup kitchen to the homeless during the week. I thought that was a wonderful use of the building too; like I said I do not question that there are wonderful things going on in some church buildings. I just question if it is the best way. And yes, it absouletly is a matter of one's perspective!
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trafield
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quote:
Tracy, I dont disagree with any of your points here accept that the building is a hindrance.
I guess it just depends on one's perspective.
I know of "buildings" that shelter battered women...I know of other "buildings" that are Christian pregnancy centers that protect women from those that would try to force them into abortions...etc, etc.
For these, the "building" is not a hinderance, my dear sister, but a lifeline. ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Tracy, I dont disagree with any of your points here accept that the building is a hindrance. ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif)
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trafield
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quote:
Is our treasure the building or the people? The question is not whether or not good things are happening in church buildings. The question is could better things be happening if the church were gathering in our already exisiting homes or businesses or parks or what ever? If there were not the added responsibilities of church buildings could those resources... human, material, monetary, be better spent elsewhere or else wise? If there were not buildings for people to walk into would they have to seek people to hear about the Gospel? Would members have to go out to preach it? Would we be better more effective witneses of it the other 6 days of the week? Would we be more apt to assemble according to the leading and gifting of the spirit and the needs of the body rather than according to the comfort of the seats or the quality of the sound system or the presence of a gym?
And you might want to add the presence of a computer and the internet to the list.
Look, I know we agree more than we disagree. I know the churches are in trouble because many of them are dead. There are many reasons for this, among them are the critical spirits that want to point out our differences rather than focus on what we have in common in Christ. But I wonder how many of us who fellowship on the Christian boards, actually meet with other believers in person and fellowship on a regular basis as we are called? How many are actually discipling and mentoring new Christians? How many are actually leaving their computers and wintessing and praying for people face-to-face. God knows.
I understand what you all are saying, and I think we mostly agree. But the 3,000 believers that were baptised in the book of Acts were meeting together in orderly worship, and God was adding to their numbers daily those that were being saved. The big difference is that they had every thing in common and were united in their love for God, not divided by selfish ambition and quarreling words.
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trafield
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quote:
Tracy: I am sure it happens; but that is not the point. The point is and the question asked is: Is the building a hindrance.
And I still say, no. But unfruitful spirits with an unloiving heart in church buildings certainly are. Just as are unfruitful spirits in a house, or in the open air are.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Too funny about my PM box! Mac just told me my email box was full and I did not realize what he was telling me! I think that is a case of take the beam from your own eye ![[roll on floor]](graemlins/6.gif) Thanks for the quote box info!
I agree with you on renting when needed, but I would hope that it would be possible to use the facilities of a member. Many have offices with conference rooms.. or maybe someone owns a hotel? When we had a shop we had a room that we used for training that would have made a great meeting room. I would think that renting would come as an exception when no other means was available.
I tell you I was thinking about this subject and this post probably will not be any more popular with some that the one above, but I think it is true... so here goes.
I have heard a lot of discussion about how so often women must teach in church because there are no men to do it... or women must pastor because there are no men to do it.
I think that if we were meeting in homes this would be less a problem... I think that men would better understand that they are the priest of their homes and their families. I think that women would better understand keep silent and learn at home from your own husbands.
If we were meeting in homes... I would not desire a women to come into my home teaching. Nor would my husband desire any authority over another man's wife. He would want her to go to her own husband if she had questions or lacked understanding. Likewise.. I would not be going to another woman's husband looking for answers to my questions or understanding. In this setting we can see the importance of order. We can see that these things are not archaic and are not because Paul did not like women and not because society oppressed women, but because God has established the HOME as the center of spiritual learning and fellowship and these things were meant to respect God's authority structure in the home,,, that being the head of every man is Christ and the head of the woman is man. Man is the priest of his home.
Personally, I can see in our current tradition of church building congregation why so many men are not comfortable stepping up to the plate so to speak. There is not proper authority. Who could be confortable in that situation?
If your pastor says something that is against your belief or understanding of the scripture and you are in the church building .. he is in an authority that is not his according to scripture.
I dont know about you but I have had this happen and it is not a good thing. We once were in a church where the pastor told one of my children that it was ok to read Harry Potter books. Well not in our house it is not! How do I now demonstrate right authority to my girls in this situation. If I speak up I am out of right authority. If I dont my children have wrong instruction. Now my husband has to step in and do something he does not want to do. He has to correct the situation with our children, but he also has to speak to the pastor.... but the pastor in in authority in the Church Building. If this had happened in a home setting... it would be very clear to all who was out of right authority in the first place.
I dont know if that is a good example or will be understood what I am trying to say. But the man is the priest of his own home. When you enter another man's home you are a guest. When you are given to a body as a pastor or elder and you enter a man's home for a church congregation, you enter as his guest... it is like yeilding the floor... you are given a level of repect from the householder who yields the floor... but you are not there in authority over him and his family...nor over those who are also guests with you. You are yielded the floor out of honor and respect, which is met with your own honor and respect that this is his home.
Can you see what I am talking about? It just seems to me that one of the main reasons we do not understand these scriptures today and we make all kinds of excuses for our lack of understanding that amount to our denying or dismissing them, is because we do not do church as we ought.
MHO for what it is worth.
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
To me that question asks... is it the best way.
WOW, very good post Linda!
![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. - Matthew 17:4
But Jesus did not say to start putting up eartly kingdoms. Because He who sees Jesus in his true nature will be transformed into his likness and has no need of an eartly dwelling. It is about Jesus only and He is sufficient. If Jesus dwells in us, we will want to help others and not promote ourselves.
I think it would be a good thing to rent a building as needed when a large group of believes need to get together for a meeting. I know people can rent Freedom Hall Civic Center where I live to use for such things. Like once a month or something like that. But not build one to set empty sucking up all the resources we should be using to support the widows, orphans and to evanglize (preach the gospel out doors where people can hear it, other then our special little groups.)
Wow this would force people to get into small groups and really get to know each other and be accountable and actually know if someone died or need help.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Linda,
That is awesome! But you don't think there are other churches of various sizes in church buildings with people doing the same things?
There are...I know, because I came from one.
Tracy: I am sure it happens; but that is not the point. The point is and the question asked is: Is the building a hindrance.
To me that question asks... is it the best way. There is no question that good things are happening in some church buildings... but I would would ask you is this the best or have we settled for the good at the expense of the best? Just because God works all things for our Good and His glory if we love HIM... does that mean He needs to be working somethings?
Here are some examples:
If a church has a building then the church has taxes on the building. In order that those taxes not be a burden... the church then applies for tax exempt status... thus denying that Jesus has said render unto ceasar, but also placing themselves under the authority of the state as to what can and cannot be done in that building lest they lose their tax exempt status. The church building is a hindrance...
Church buildings require boards to attend to isssues of budgets, maintenance, insurance, compliance with fire and zoning and sign and access ordainances; it requires the funds and the time to make repairs; the funds and the time to clean; the funds and the time to attend to utilities... lights water garbage disposal; the funds and the time to attend to mowing and painting and parking lot maintenance; the funds and the time to attend to purchasing, repairing and maintiaining fixtures and funtiture and carpeting; it requires the funds and the time to attend to it's use and the scheduling of such, not to mention the development of and implementing of its programs... events etc; it requires the funds and the time to attend to security of the building and its contents;
I could go on... but the point is that every dollar spent on such things and every nano second given to attending to these things by the members is a dollar and a nano second spent in addition to the attending of such applicable things in the member's own residence and it is church resource.. both human and material and monetary that is expended upon a building and not PEOPLE.
The building is a hiindrance and a liability.
Why was the stone temple destroyed? Are we not now the temple? It took 24 courses of men to attend to the temple. Does God now desire this attending to be on a building or on a people that are become temples?
Is our treasure the building or the people? The question is not whether or not good things are happening in church buildings. The question is could better things be happening if the church were gathering in our already exisiting homes or businesses or parks or what ever? If there were not the added responsibilities of church buildings could those resources... human, material, monetary, be better spent elsewhere or else wise? If there were not buildings for people to walk into would they have to seek people to hear about the Gospel? Would members have to go out to preach it? Would we be better more effective witneses of it the other 6 days of the week? Would we be more apt to assemble according to the leading and gifting of the spirit and the needs of the body rather than according to the comfort of the seats or the quality of the sound system or the presence of a gym?
The question is what is God's best and do we have it? Do we want it? Does it look like what we already have?
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Miguel
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What a wonderful picture we thus see here, the tabernacle is the body and within is where the Holly Spirit dwells. Can you see that! Living in a sinner been justify by His grace! Praise God.
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
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epouraniois
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It's true. The Hebrews did have a tabernacle with the sanctuary within.
Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent
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Miguel
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Let us all look and see what our Father have to say concerning this matter. Let us compare this verses and see what is the means of the real assembly.
May the Lord guide us with His Scriptures.
God bless.
Church
A place of worship.
Called:
Courts
Psa_65:4; Psa_84:2; Psa_84:10; Psa_92:13; Psa_96:8; Psa_100:4; Psa_116:19; Isa_1:12; Isa_62:9; Zec_3:7
House of God
Gen_28:17; Gen_28:22; Jos_9:23; Jdg_18:31; Jdg_20:18; Jdg_20:26; Jdg_21:2; 1Ch_9:11; 1Ch_24:5; 2Ch_5:14; 2Ch_22:12; 2Ch_24:13; 2Ch_33:7; 2Ch_36:19; Ezr_5:8; Ezr_5:15; Ezr_7:20; Ezr_7:23; Neh_6:10; Neh_11:11; Neh_13:11; Psa_42:4; Psa_52:8; Psa_55:14; Psa_84:10; Ecc_5:1; Isa_2:3; Hos_9:8; Joe_1:16; Mic_4:2; Zec_7:2; Mat_12:4; 1Ti_3:15; Heb_10:21; 1Pe_4:17
House of the Lord
Exo_23:19; Exo_34:26; Deu_23:18; Jos_6:24; Jdg_19:18; 1Sa_1:7; 1Sa_1:24; 2Sa_12:20; 1Ki_3:1; 1Ki_6:37; 1Ki_7:40; 1Ki_8:10; 1Ki_8:63; 1Ki_10:5; 2Ki_11:3-4; 2Ki_11:15; 2Ki_11:18-19; 2Ki_12:4; 2Ki_12:9-10; 2Ki_12:13; 2Ki_12:16; 2Ki_16:18; 2Ki_20:8; 2Ki_23:2; 2Ki_23:7; 2Ki_23:11; 2Ki_25:9; 1Ch_6:31; 1Ch_22:1; 1Ch_22:11; 1Ch_22:14; 1Ch_23:4; 1Ch_26:12; 2Ch_8:16; 2Ch_26:21; 2Ch_29:5; 2Ch_29:15; 2Ch_33:15; 2Ch_34:15; 2Ch_36:14; Ezr_7:27; Psa_23:6; Psa_27:4; Psa_92:13; Psa_116:19; Psa_118:26; Psa_122:1; Psa_122:9; Psa_134:1; Isa_2:2; Isa_37:14; Jer_17:26; Jer_20:1-2; Jer_26:2; Jer_26:7; Jer_28:1; Jer_28:5; Jer_29:26; Jer_35:2; Jer_36:5-6; Jer_38:14; Jer_41:5; Jer_51:51; Lam_2:7; Eze_44:4; Hag_1:2; Zec_8:9
Sanctuary
Exo_25:8; Lev_19:30; Lev_21:12; Num_3:28; Num_4:12; Num_7:9; Num_8:19; Num_10:21; Num_18:1; Num_18:5; Num_19:20; 1Ch_9:29; 1Ch_22:19; 1Ch_24:5; 1Ch_28:10; 2Ch_20:8; 2Ch_26:18; 2Ch_29:21; 2Ch_30:8; 2Ch_30:19; Neh_10:39; Psa_20:2; Psa_28:2; Psa_63:2; Psa_68:24; Psa_73:17; Psa_74:3; Psa_74:7; Psa_77:13; Psa_78:69; Psa_150:1; Isa_16:12; Isa_63:18; Lam_2:7; Lam_2:20; Lam_4:1; Eze_5:11; Eze_42:20; Eze_44:5; Eze_44:27; Eze_45:3; Eze_48:8; Eze_48:21; Dan_8:11; Dan_8:13-14; Dan_9:17; Dan_9:26; Dan_11:31; Heb_8:2; Heb_9:1-2
House of Prayer
Isa_56:7; Mat_21:13
Tabernacle
Exo_26:1; Lev_26:11; Jos_22:19; Psa_15:1; Psa_61:4; Psa_76:2; Heb_8:2; Heb_8:5; Heb_9:2; Heb_9:11; Rev_13:6; Rev_21:3
Temple
1Sa_1:9; 1Sa_3:3; 2Ki_11:10; 2Ki_11:13; Ezr_4:1; Psa_5:7; Psa_11:4; Psa_27:4; Psa_29:9; Psa_48:9; Psa_68:29; Isa_6:1; Mal_3:1; Mat_4:5; Mat_23:16; Luk_18:10; Luk_24:53
Zion
Psa_9:11; Psa_48:11; Psa_74:2; Psa_132:13; Psa_137:1; Isa_35:10; Jer_31:6; Jer_50:5; Joe_2:1; Joe_2:15
Holy Place
Exo_28:29; Exo_38:24; Lev_6:16; Lev_10:17; Lev_14:13; Lev 16:2-24; Jos_5:15; 1Ki_8:8; 1Ch_23:32; 2Ch_29:5; 2Ch_30:27; 2Ch_35:5; Ezr_9:8; Psa_24:3; Psa_46:4; Psa_68:17; Ecc_8:10; Isa_57:15; Eze_41:4; Eze_42:13; Eze_45:4; Mat_24:15; Act_6:13; Act_21:28; Heb_9:12; Heb_9:25
Holy Temple
Psa_5:7; Psa_11:4; Psa_65:4; Psa_79:1; Psa_138:2; Jon_2:4; Jon_2:7; Mic_1:2; Hab_2:20; Eph_2:21; Eph_3:17
My Father's House
Joh_2:16; Joh_14:2
Holy
Exo_30:26-29; Exo_40:9; Lev_8:10-11; Lev_16:33; Lev_19:30; Lev_21:12; Num_7:1; 1Ki_9:3; 1Ch_29:3; 2Ch_3:8; Isa_64:11; Eze_23:39; 1Co_3:17
Called in the Old Testament, The Congregation
Exo_12:3; Exo_12:6; Exo_12:19; Exo_12:47; Exo_16:1-2; Exo_16:9-10; Exo_16:22; Lev_4:13; Lev_4:15; Lev_10:17; Lev_24:14
Called in the New Testament, Church
Mat_16:18; Mat_18:17; Act_2:47; 1Co_11:18; 1Co_14:19; 1Co_14:23; 1Co_14:28; 1Co_14:33-34; 1Co_15:9; Gal_1:13
Called:
Assembly of the Saints
Psa_89:7
Assembly of the Upright
Psa_111:1
Body of Christ
Eph_1:22-23; Col_1:24
Branch of God's Planting
Isa_60:21
Bride of Christ
Rev_21:9
Church of God
Act_20:28
Church of the Living God
1Ti_3:15
Church of the Firstborn
Heb_12:23
City of the Living God
Heb_12:22
Congregation of Saints
Psa_149:1
Congregation of the Lord's Poor
Psa_74:19
Dove
Son_2:14; Son_5:2
Family in Heaven and Earth
Eph_3:15
Flock of God
Eze_34:15; 1Pe_5:2
Fold of Christ
Joh_10:16
General Assembly of the Firstborn
Heb_12:23
Golden Candlestick
Rev_1:20
God's Building
1Co_3:9
God's Husbandry
1Co_3:9
God's Heritage
Joe_3:2; 1Pe_5:3
Habitation of God
Eph_2:22
Heavenly Jerusalem
Gal_4:26; Heb_12:22
Holy City
Rev_21:2
Holy Mountain
Zec_8:3
Holy Hill
Psa_2:6; Psa_15:1
House of God
1Ti_3:15; Heb_10:21
The God of Jacob
Isa_2:3
House of Christ
Heb_3:6
Household of God
Eph_2:19
Inheritance
Psa_28:9; Isa_19:25
Israel of God
Gal_6:16
King's Daughter
Psa_45:13
Kingdom of God
Mat_6:33; Mat_12:28; Mat_19:24; Mat_21:31
Kingdom of Heaven
Mat_3:2; Mat_4:17; Mat_10:7; Mat_5:3; Mat_5:10;
Mat_5:19-20
His Kingdom
Psa_103:19; Psa_145:12; Mat_16:28; Luk_1:33
My Kingdom
Joh_18:36
Thy Kingdom
Psa_45:6; Psa_145:11; Psa_145:13; Mat_6:10;
Luk_23:42
Lamb's Bride
Eph_5:22-32; Rev_22:17
Lamb's Wife
Rev_19:7-9; Rev_21:9
Lot of God's Inheritance
Deu_32:9
Mount Zion
Heb_12:22
Mountain of the Lord's House
Isa_2:2
New Jerusalem
Rev_21:2
Pillar and Ground of the Truth
1Ti_3:15
Place of God's Throne
Eze_43:7
Pleasant Portion
Jer_12:10
Sanctuary of God
Psa_114:2
Sister of Christ
Son_4:12; Son_5:2
Spiritual House
1Pe_2:5
Spouse of Christ
Son_4:12; Son_5:1
Strength and Glory of God
Psa_78:61
Sought Out, a City Not Forsaken
Isa_62:12
The Lord's Portion
Deu_32:9
Temple of God
1Co_3:16-17
Temple of the Living God
2Co_6:16
Vineyard
Jer_12:10; Mat_21:41
Christ's love for
Joh_10:8; Joh_10:11-12; Eph_5:25-32; Rev_3:9
Loved by believers
Psa_87:7; Psa_137:5; 1Co_12:25; 1Th_4:9
Is prayed for
Psa_122:6; Isa_62:6
Dear to God
Isa_43:4
Safe under his care
Psa_46:1-2; Psa_46:5
Salt and light of the world
Mat_5:13
Militant
Son_6:10; Phi_2:25; 2Ti_2:3; 2Ti_4:7; Phm_1:2
God defends
Psa_89:18; Isa_4:5; Isa_49:25; Mat_16:18
God provides ministers for
Jer_3:15; Eph_4:11-12
Is glorious
Psa_45:13; Eph_5:27
Is clothed in righteousness
Rev_19:8
Believers continually added to, by the Lord
Act_2:47; Act_5:14; Act_11:24
Unity of
Rom_12:5; 1Co_10:17; 1Co_12:12; Gal_3:28; Eph_4:4
Privileges of
Psa_36:8; Psa_87:5
Worship of, to be attended
Heb_10:25
Harmonious fellowship of
Psa_133:1-3; Joh_13:34; Act_4:32; Phi_1:4;
Phi_2:1; 1 John 3-4
Divisions in, to be shunned
Rom_16:17; 1Co_1:10; 1Co_3:3
Baptized into by one Spirit
1Co_12:13
Ministers commanded to feed
Act_20:28
Is edified by the word
Rom_12:6; 1Co_14:4; 1Co_14:13; Eph_4:15-16;
Col_3:16
The wicked persecute
Act_8:1-3; 1Th_2:14-15
Not to be despised
1Co_11:22
Defiling of, will be punished
1Co_3:17
Extent of, predicted
Isa_2:2; Eze_17:22-24; Dan_2:34-35
Unclassified scriptures relating to
Deu_32:9; Psa_2:6; Psa_9:11; Psa_9:14; Psa_14:7; Psa_53:6; Psa_20:2; Psa_46:4-5; Psa_48:1-2; Psa_48:11-13; Psa_50:2; Psa_51:18; Psa_65:1; Psa_69:35-36; Psa_74:2; Psa_84:1-10; Psa_87:1-6; Psa_99:2; Psa_102:13-14; Psa_102:16; Psa_102:19-21; Psa_110:2; Psa_111:1; Psa_114:2; Psa_125:1; Psa_126:1-2; Psa_129:5; Psa_132:13-16; Psa_133:1-3; Psa_134:1-3; Psa_137:1-6; Psa_149:2; Isa_1:8; Isa_1:27; Isa_2:3; Isa_4:2-6; Isa_12:6; Isa_14:32; Isa_24:23; Isa_27:2-3; Isa_28:5; Isa_28:16; Isa_31:4-5; Isa_33:5; Isa_33:14; Isa_33:20-24; Isa_35:1-10; Isa_40:9-11; Isa_43:1-7; Isa_43:21; Isa_43:25; Isa_44:23; Isa_49:14-17; Isa_52:1-2; Isa_52:7-12; Isa_59:20; Isa_60:1-6; Isa_60:19-21; Isa_61:1-3; Isa_62:1; Isa_62:3; Isa_62:11-12; Isa_66:8; Isa_66:18; Jer_3:14-15; Jer_12:10; Jer_13:11; Jer_31:6-7; Jer_31:12; Jer_31:23; Jer_33:9; Eze_43:7; Joe_2:1; Joe_2:15-17; Zec_8:3; Mat_13:24; Mat_16:18; Act_7:38; Act_20:28; 1Co_3:9; 1Co_12:28; 1Co_15:9; 2Co_8:1; Eph_1:22-23; Eph_2:21-22; Eph_3:15; Eph_3:21; Eph_5:23-27; Eph_5:29; Col_1:24; 1Ti_3:14-15; Heb_3:6; Heb_12:22-23; 1Pe_2:5; Rev_1:20; Rev_21:2; Rev_21:10-11; Rev_21:23
Backslidden
General references
Psa_12:1; Psa 80:1-19; Isa 1:2-27; Isa_17:9-11; Isa_43:22-28; Jer 2:5-34; Jer 3:1-25; Jer 8:5-22; Jer_9:1-3; Jer_10:19-22; Jer_18:11-17; Jer_50:4-7; Eze_2:3-5; Eze_5:5-17; Eze_16:23; Hos 2; Hos 4; Hos_6:1-11; Joel 2; Amo_6:1-14; Mat_21:33-46; Mar_12:1-12; Luk_13:6-9; Rev_2:1-6; Rev_2:12-16; Rev_2:18-25; Rev_3:1-4; Rev_3:14-20
General references
Psa_118:22-23; Mat_21:42-43; Mar_12:10; Luk_20:17-18; 1Pe_2:7; Isa_33:22; Isa_55:4; Mat_12:6; Mat_12:8; Mar_2:28; Luk_6:5; Mat_23:8; Mat_23:10; Joh_13:13; Joh_15:1-8; Act_2:36; Rom_8:29; Rom_9:5; 1Co_3:11; 1Co_11:3; 1Co_12:5; Eph_1:10; Eph_1:22-23; Eph_2:20-22; Eph_4:15; Eph_5:23-32; Col_1:13; Col_1:18; Col_2:10; Col_2:19; Col_3:11; Heb_3:3; Heb_3:6; Rev_1:13; Rev_2:1; Rev_2:9; Rev_2:12-13; Rev_2:18-19; Rev_3:1; Rev_3:7; Rev_5:6; Rev_21:22-23; Rev_22:16
Christian, divinely established
Mat_16:15-18; Eph_2:20-22; 1Th_1:1; 2Th_1:1; 1Ti_3:15
Corruption in
General references
Hos_4:9; Mic_3:1-4; Mic_3:9; Mic_3:11; Mat_21:33-41; Mat_21:45; Mar_12:1-12; Mat_23:2-7; Matt 23:13-33; Mat_26:59-68; Mar_14:10-11; Mat_26:14-16; Luk_22:3-6
Psa_102:14; Psa_122:6; Psa_122:9; Psa_128:5-6; Psa_137:1-6; Isa_22:4; Isa_58:12; Isa_62:1; Isa_62:6-7; Isa_66:10; Isa_66:13-14; Jer_9:1; Jer_14:17; Jer_51:50-51; Lam_2:11; Lam_3:48-51
Gen_12:3; Gen_49:10; Deu_32:21; Psa_2:8; Psa_22:27-31; Psa_46:4; Psa_46:10; Psa_65:2; Psa_66:4; Psa_68:31-32; Psa_69:35-36; Psa 72:1-20; Psa_85:10-12; Psa_86:9; Psa_87:4; Psa 89:1-37; Psa_96:1-13; Psa_102:13-16; Psa_102:18-22; Psa_110:1-7; Psa_113:3; Psa_118:24; Psa_126:5-6; Psa_132:15-18; Psa_138:4-5; Psa_145:10-11; Isa_2:2-5; Isa_4:2-3; Isa_4:5-6; Isa_9:1-7; Isa_11:1-10; Isa_18:7; Isa_19:24-25; Isa_23:17-18; Isa_24:16; Isa_25:6-8; Isa_29:18-24; Isa_30:20; Isa 32:1-20; Isa_33:5; Isa_33:13-24; Isa_35:1-10; Isa_41:17-20; Isa_40:4-11; Isa_42:1-12; Isa_44:3-5; Isa_45:6; Isa_45:8; Isa_45:14; Isa_45:23-24; Isa_46:12-13; Isa_49:6-12; Isa_49:18-23; Isa_51:3-16; Isa_52:1-15; Isa_53:10-12; Isa 54:1-17; Isa_55:1-13; Isa_56:3-8; Isa_59:19-21; Isa 60:1-22; Isa_61:1-11; Isa_62:1-12; Isa 65:1-25; Isa 66:7-23; Jer_3:17; Jer_4:2; Jer_16:19-21; Jer_31:7-9; Jer_31:34; Jer_33:22; Eze_17:22-24; Eze_34:23-31; Eze_47:1-12; Dan_2:35; Dan_2:44-45; Dan_7:13-14; Dan_7:18; Dan_7:22; Dan_7:27; Dan_12:1-13; Joe_2:26-32; Act_2:16-21; Joe_3:18; Amo_9:11-12; Mic_4:1-7; Mic_5:2-15; Hab_2:14; Zep_2:11; Zep_3:9-20; Hag_2:7-9; Zec_2:10-11; Zec_6:15; Zec_8:20-23; Zec_9:1; Zec_9:9-17; Zec_14:8-21; Mal_1:11; Mat_8:11; Mat_11:11; Mat_13:16-17; Mat_13:31-33; Mat_16:18; Mar_4:26-32; Luk_7:22; Mat_11:5; Joh_8:35; Joh_10:16; Rom_1:5-7; 1Co_15:24-28; Eph_1:10; Heb_12:23-24; Heb_12:27-28; Rev_5:10; Rev_5:13-14; Rev_11:15; Rev_12:10; Rev_15:4; Rev_20:4-6; Rev 21:9-27; Rev_22:1-5
List of Christian churches:
Antioch
Act_13:1
Asia
1Co_16:19; Rev_1:4
Babylon
1Pe_5:13
Cenchrea
Rom_16:1
Caesarea
Act_18:22
Cilicia
Act_15:41
Corinth
1Co_1:2
Ephesus
Eph_1:22; Rev_2:1
Galatia
Gal_1:2
Galilee
Act_9:31
Jerusalem
Act_15:4
Joppa
Act_9:42
Judea
Act_9:31
Laodicea
Rev_3:14
Pergamos
Rev_2:12
Philadelphia
Rev_3:7
Samaria
Act_9:31
Sardis
Rev_3:1
Smyrna
Rev_2:8
Syria
Act_15:41
Thessalonica
1Th_1:1
Thyatira
Rev_2:18
Unity of
General references
Psa_133:1; Joh_10:16; Joh_17:11; Joh_17:21-23; Rom_12:4-5; 1Co_10:17; 1Co_12:5; 1 Cor 12:12-27; Gal_3:26-28; Eph_1:10; Eph_2:14-19; Eph_2:21; Eph_3:6; Eph_3:15; Eph_4:4-6; Eph_4:12-13; Eph_4:16; Eph_4:25; Col_3:11; Col_3:15
--------------------
Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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HE LIVES
Advanced Member
Member # 4931
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posted
quote:
Why does the pastor preach a sermon every week?
I wonder sometimes if we need less sermons and more application.
It might be better off if we had one sermon a month with the following three weeks being about application of the sermon.
Posts: 182 | From: Missouri | Registered: Aug 2005
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Aaron
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by David:
Have you ever wonderd about the following.
Why do we "dress up" for church?
Why does the pastor preach a sermon every week?
Why do we have pulpits and pews?
Why do we have church building, steeples, choirs, and seminaries?
Where did these things come from?
Now you're talking crazy. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Aaron
P.S. One can make even their closest of friends squeemish with those questions. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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epouraniois
unregistered
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posted
And so, what is truth?
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; --Rev 3:14
That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of “truth”; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes. --Isa 65:16
There it is, the word Truth=Amen. The Hebrew word “truth”, “'emeth”. Amen = am, long e, n, amd is just the transliteration of the Hebrew word “Truth”. Pilate’s question, What is truth, well; Christ is the truth, & the Amen. John says, Thy Word is Truth. There is no truth outside of Him. Christ says, I am the truth. It is obvious that most people do not really want truth, oh, they say they do, but it shows in their actions, its too upsetting. In fact they deny truth. In Psalm 119, we read of one who valued truth & quickening above that of gold. Do we really want truth?
For my love they are my adversaries: but I prayer. Psa 109:4
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